From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Oct 1 00:06:16 2004 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 02:06:16 -0500 Subject: Magic versus technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041001070616.GE8177@infodancer.org> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 11:21:14PM -0700, James Griffin wrote: > The point of that was that in the Paths, sorcery was impossible, hence Vlad > did it (the once in a lifetime transport of a certain object) with > witchcraft. I believe sorcery can transport *items*, but not perhaps in > bulk? How did Morrollan keep Castle Black supplied during the war with Kana? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From frank at exit.com Fri Oct 1 08:57:45 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> http://www.reallifecomics.com/ -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From Bato001 at aol.com Fri Oct 1 09:32:22 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:32:22 -0400 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <16E03A5D.136BD183.0015B39F@aol.com> Maybe not as unexpected as you would think. Check out the guest of honor list for Steve's next Ubercon appearance. The gentleman who publishes real life comics (Greg Dean) is not a guest, but there are several web comic authors attending. Could it be that they met at another conference? Or is Mr. Brust just becoming a Fantasy legend? -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From casey at the-bat.net Fri Oct 1 09:48:24 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:48:24 -0400 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <16E03A5D.136BD183.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: John D. Barbato, O.D. writ: > Or is Mr. Brust just becoming a Fantasy legend? I nearly think that after 20-plus years, anyone who hasn't run across Steve's books hasn't been looking. Well, perhaps that's an exaggeration. Still, I would be more surprised to find a reader of Fantasy who's never heard of him than one who had. Casey From rst_98 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 09:42:56 2004 From: rst_98 at hotmail.com (Seth Terashima) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:42:56 -0600 Subject: Magic versus Technology Message-ID: Even if technology would have little practical purpose in a magical world, Dragaraens (especially the Hawk and Athyra) obviously value knowledge. Yet one of the books (I forget which) implies Dragaerans haven't figured out the world is round. How could this be? Contrary to popular misconception, [Earth's] humans have had this figured out for quite some time - the Egyptians not only realized the earth was a sphere, but calculated its diameter. I think the answer to this is the presence of the Overcast. The motivation for developing mathematics is linked with astronomy; for example, solar calenders or calculating lattitude and longitute for navigation based on the relative positions of stars and the horizon. Perhaps being deprived of the stars, Dragaens never developed advanced mathematics (and therefore never developed science or technology). (If this is correct, is this the purpose of the Overcast?!) However, Vlad says that the Athyra (?) had a unit for magical energy (~ the joule). This implies that they have the means to quantitatively assess magic's physical effects, which would require a basic understanding of Newtonian kinematics. So maybe I'm wrong and just wasted some of your time. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 1 09:57:08 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Casey wrote: > I nearly think that after 20-plus years, anyone who hasn't run across > Steve's books hasn't been looking. > > Well, perhaps that's an exaggeration. Still, I would be more surprised to > find a reader of Fantasy who's never heard of him than one who had. I've found a few in the younger crowd, whereupon I toss Brust books their way and insist they be read and returned. The latter, sadly, doesn't seem to happen as often, but it gives me the chance to buy more Brust books. :) Chris (Who has corrupted quite a few people with a manic Brust-obsession, and is rather proud of it.:) From erik at debill.org Fri Oct 1 10:03:05 2004 From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:03:05 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 09:57:08AM -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > I've found a few in the younger crowd, whereupon I > toss Brust books their way and insist they be read > and returned. The latter, sadly, doesn't seem to happen > as often, but it gives me the chance to buy more Brust > books. > I know someone who had them recommended to her for years but never started on them because she couldn't figure out which was first. She has done pretty well since I started loaning them to her in order. -- Well I'm walking through the sand In the desert of my mind And I don't remember what it was That I came here to find -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone" From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 1 10:13:00 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:13:00 -0600 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:57:45 -0700 (PDT), Frank Mayhar wrote: > http://www.reallifecomics.com/ Parenting tip of the day! -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Oct 1 10:14:08 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> References: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 erik at debill.org wrote: @> I know someone who had them recommended to her for years but never @> started on them because she couldn't figure out which was first. She @> has done pretty well since I started loaning them to her in order. Ah, but which order? From harpere at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 10:23:40 2004 From: harpere at gmail.com (Elizabeth Harper) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:23:40 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> References: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> Message-ID: <104331b204100110235d78f962@mail.gmail.com> I recently started a teenage friend of mine on the Brust novels, giving them to him in the order in which they were written. However, the time jumps between novels seem to hurt his head. ;) This is a series in which it is impossible to start at the begining - who knows when a book from an even earlier era might be written? On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:03:05 -0500, erik at debill.org wrote: > On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 09:57:08AM -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > I've found a few in the younger crowd, whereupon I > > toss Brust books their way and insist they be read > > and returned. The latter, sadly, doesn't seem to happen > > as often, but it gives me the chance to buy more Brust > > books. > > > > I know someone who had them recommended to her for years but never > started on them because she couldn't figure out which was first. She > has done pretty well since I started loaning them to her in order. > > -- > Well I'm walking through the sand > In the desert of my mind > And I don't remember what it was > That I came here to find > -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone" > From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 1 10:30:55 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:30:55 -0600 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Steve has started off with existing fantasies of elves and played with them in a realistic way. It is interesting that Tolkein has elves basically dying out as humans replace them - despite their immortality. Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has made them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. He also has shown us peasants who live with a lot of same-old same-old. We all know how difficult it is to keep someone a peasant after turning them into soldiers and letting them see the world. He can return as a farmer, but a much more worldy farmer. So there are a bunch of peasants who somehow aren't taking over in population despite being in more safe professions than the warriors. Maybe they choose to reproduce slowly due to poverty. But if all you have is your children, they still have pressure to have children. As Dragaeran society gets more wealthy (which is certainly happening), how is it going to keep its population down? Citizen armies? Even Napolean didn't keep his population down, much less the feudal states before him. Soldiers die at a sufficient rate to require replacing. (Do Dzurs and Dragons reproduce more rapidly than Orcas?) It appears we will be seeing more of the impacts of social changes in this series. We have only been slightly introduced to the serfs who haven't yet been impacted by these tremendous changes. The real interesting thing here will be how Steve has this modernization work within the Cycle. I believe that's what he's going to do. The social forces of change are too big to revert, and I don't think he wants to destroy the cycle. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Oct 1 11:08:07 2004 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:08:07 -0400 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical Message-ID: <30fb8db30fa867.30fa86730fb8db@gwu.edu> A little bit late... I'm now listening to Fortune of War, and was thinking about this thread. In this book (and to a lesser degree the previous) I've found Jack is Dzur-like and Stephen is a Yendi. (and though I'm sure it won't hold up under scrutiny, Diana is a Dragon and Sophie is a Tiassa...) I'm truly enjoying listening to these on tape btw... Guil: What a shambles! We're just not getting anywhere. Ros: Not even England. I don't believe in it anyway. Guil: What? Ros: England. Guil: Just a conspiracy of cartographers, you mean? ~~~Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, Tom Stoppard From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 11:40:06 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <83.1721ae52.2e8ce489@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041001184006.61230.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: ... > Has anyone figured out a House for Grassfog and his sister > Tsira? ... No, and it didn't occur to me that they might be Easterners, but I'm taking advantage of this post to mention that "fog" can mean "1. A new growth of grass appearing on a field that has been mowed or grazed. 2. Tall, decaying grass left standing after the cutting or grazing season." (American Heritage Dictionary, . I wonder whether that's connected with Grassfog's name. More word trivia: mowing the fog (sense 1) for hay is the original meaning of "aftermath". Jerry Friedman apologizes if someone has mentioned this already. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:12:12 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:12:12 +0000 Subject: Idle Speculation - The Teckla Republic Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, jeff G. wrote: > But with all the House having a built in inclination for particular > positions (Dragons as Warlord, Athyra as Judges, Lyorn Recordkeepers, Yendi > Prime Ministers, to name the most obvious), the people that run the empire > on a day to day basis would remain in their positions for some time, > [solecism snipped] The Teckla include genes (and surely traits) from the noble houses and are in my view likely to be able to find appropriate replacements. I would imagine that in any transition there will be many holdovers, esp. in (relatively) abrupt transitions - but my guess is that there would be more and faster changes going from a noble autocracy to a popular republic. Are you sure? Remember, we have been exposed only to the more exceptional Teckla. The vast majority I would imagine are rather more like the sheep that populate this country and enjoy Nascar racing. BTW, I am debating on whether I should be insulted or not. If you meant it grammatically, I suppose I will allow your method of editing to stand. Jeff _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 12:13:05 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <16731.2544.625912.902533@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20041001191305.80048.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Jerry Friedman writes: > >Anyone have the text, since _Phoenix_ isn't on book search? I thought > >Verra made a time reference--Dragaera isn't ready *yet*. > > This is my memory as well. > > >> The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires > >> is to destroy the Great Cycle. > > No. > Note, to support my point, that the Orca are, basically, the merchant > middle class...the obvious predicessor to a Teckla communist > revolution. I hadn't considered that, and I think it support my suggestion that Kelly's movement could succeed as the Cycle turns from the Orca to the Teckla, at the expense of my other suggestions. I don't think it's settled, though. > When did Verra indicate that a communist revolution would last > indefinately? She indicated (thanks to lazarus for the quotation) that there was a lot of truth in what Kelly was reading. If that was Marx et al., I imagine they say that from a Communist revolution, there's no turning back. > Ours didn't... 'Cept maybe Cuba (though I'm not expecting it). I think Communists have various ways of understanding the events of the '80s and '90s. I would *guess* that a Hungarian-American Trotskyite sympathizer would say that the USSR and its satellites weren't really Communist any time after 1927, when Trotsky was expelled from the Soviet Communist Party, and that this became dead obvious in 1956. However, my mind probes are unreliable, so Steven might think something quite different. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:01:54 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:01:54 +0000 Subject: Magic versus technology Message-ID: The point of that was that in the Paths, sorcery was impossible, hence Vlad did it (the once in a lifetime transport of a certain object) with witchcraft. I believe sorcery can transport *items*, but not perhaps in bulk? James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN As I recall, in FHYA, there is a rather lengthy Paarfism on teleportation, in which it is stated that the teleportation of objects is rather common, but until then no one had been successfull in teleporting themselves or anyone else, except for one rather messy exception. Jeff _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 12:19:07 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20040929192615.79910.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041001191907.88700.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- S SHafer wrote: > They've changed in many ways, but to move from > feudalism to socialism, I feel, isn't possible without > the consent of the Cycle, if not the Noble Houses > themselves. And can you see Dragons, Dzur, Athyra, or > Phoenix allowing their aristocracy to be pushed aside > in favor of a total Teckla revolt, destroying the > Cycle itself? I don't think so. The > Houses allow the Teckla to have their little Republic > every Cycle because they know it'll last, at most, > 17^3 years before the Cycle pushes them aside for the > next House in line. The brand of feudalism may change, > but it's still feudalism. > > What Kelly wanted was the destruction of the Cycle... What he wanted is the dictatorship of the proletariat, by any means necessary. I expect he was convinced that this was inevitable. Either the Cycle would permit it or it would be destroyed--both fine with him. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kelly an Easterner > and not a Teckla. The revolt in Adril... ankha... > , involving > Vlad's wife (also an Easterner, no?), was not a move > towards the Teckla Republic, but a move by Easterners > who, being outside the cycle, want a bigger role in > governing the empire. Kelly and his followers would > not even be involved in the Teckla Republic and > Verra's comments about Kelly's ideas do not really apply. At least one of Kelly's people, Paresh, is a Teckla, and if I remember Phoenix correctly, he effectively rouses the Teckla rabble. There can certainly be a Teckla Republic without Kelly's movement. But he intends to make sure that, if the Cycle gets to that point again, his movement will be involved. I'm not sure what you mean Verra's comments don't apply to. Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 1 12:27:00 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:27:00 -0600 Subject: Idle Speculation - The Teckla Republic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:12:12 +0000, jeff G. wrote: > Are you sure? Remember, we have been exposed only to the more > exceptional Teckla. The vast majority I would imagine are rather more > like the sheep that populate this country and enjoy Nascar racing. We also have been exposed to some "sheep" who are serfs to powerful lords. Or at least to one powerful lord with whom Vlad had a debt to play. His serfs were certainly medieval in nature, nothing at all like what we see in the cities. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 12:30:22 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041001193022.45149.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- lazarus wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: ... > >It does bring to mind a question, though: > > > >> "But the truth he has based his policies > >> on, the fuel for this fire he is building, has no such strength in > the > >> Empire. Perhaps in ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand, but > not > >> now." > > > >My understanding is that the Empire is governed, ultimately, by the > >Cycle (at least to the Dragaerans, I can't remember how the > >Lords of Judgment view the subject). If Kelly's truth has > >no strength in the Empire, but might sometime in the future, what > >might this say about the future of the Empire and the Cycle? > >What's she trying to say, here? And how much of it is what she > >means, compared to what Vlad hears? > > > >Hmm... > > > >ChrisO > > What's the length of the cycle again? Possibly Kelly's policies would > work when the Teckla are ascendant? >From Alexx Kay's site, "A House can hold the Orb between 289 (17^2) and 4,913 (17^3) years (Tl 96-97)." If we assume the next Dragon reign starts "tomorrow", then the next Teckla reign starts 3,757 to 63,869 years from "now". Using Alexx's average of 775 years per reign gives an expected time of 10,075 years. Hm, very suspicious. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 12:40:33 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <415C19D3.4000004@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20041001194033.95118.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jose Marquez wrote: > Jerry Friedman wrote: > > --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > >>Hmm... Maybe that's the Last Contract? Kelly hires Vlad > >>to assassinate the Great Cycle! Another All-Expenses Paid > >>trip to the Land of the Dead, with chisel and hammer in > >>hand.... > >> > >>Okay, maybe not. > > > > I've taken that idea seriously since somewhere around _Phoenix_ > > (probably on one of my re-reads). The main objection, of course, > > is that from things Paarfi says, Norathar's reign lasts well beyond > > Vlad's expected lifetime. Ways around that: > > I would say that another huge objection is that Vlad hates Kelly, and > while he would be tempted to take Verra and the other Lords of Judgment > to task (using his new toy) for various reasons, I don't think that he > would really do it unless he had a better reason than Kelly wanting him > to. As I recall, though, he told Kelly at the end of _Teckla_ that he respects what Kelly's doing. That might be a good reason. And as Kiera says in _Orca_, maybe being good at something is the best reason to do it. *shudder* > Especially after knowing that Kelly's ideas won't work in the > current Empire. I'm not sure Vlad would trust Verra on that. On the other hand, >from what Steven posted, Verra might be right. > Maybe Vlad can manage to live long enough to see those > ideas be viable, but not Kelly and his supporters. Well, okay, but if Kelly isn't around to annoy Vlad any more, doesn't that remove your objection? Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 12:53:14 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <1096575413.2373.41.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041001195314.45078.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Brust wrote: > On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 11:00, Jerry Friedman wrote: ... > > I almost agree with you and Mark. My impression was, "Marx and > > Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic > > process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in > > turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the > > proletariat. Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or > > industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting > > a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine. > > > > For what it's worth, you've captured about 90% of what I was shooting > for. (The other 10% involves things like magic and the effects of > genetic manipulation; but you have the guts of it.) Thank you! I hope feeling good about being right doesn't lead me to give my opinion on half the recent posts... oh, too late. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 1 12:53:57 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation - The Teckla Republic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, jeff G. wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, jeff G. wrote: > > > But with all the House having a built in inclination for particular > > positions (Dragons as Warlord, Athyra as Judges, Lyorn Recordkeepers, > Yendi > > Prime Ministers, to name the most obvious), the people that run the > empire > > on a day to day basis would remain in their positions for some time, > > [solecism snipped] > > [me]: > > The Teckla include genes (and surely traits) from the noble houses and > are in my view likely to be able to find appropriate replacements. > I would imagine that in any transition there will be many holdovers, > esp. in (relatively) abrupt transitions - but my guess is that there > would be more and faster changes going from a noble autocracy > to a popular republic. > > > Are you sure? Remember, we have been exposed only to the more exceptional > Teckla. The vast majority I would imagine are rather more like the sheep > that populate this country and enjoy Nascar racing. I believe Aliera makes my general point somewhere. Also I seem to recall the Teckla messenger at the beginning of _FHYA_ being described as having some of the bearing of the house gya represented. Finally I only need a small pool of exceptional Teckla amongst the vast populace at a time of impending societal dominance by that class to win my point. > > BTW, I am debating on whether I should be insulted or not. If you meant it > grammatically, I suppose I will allow your method of editing to stand. Sorry to be rudely snippy - "irregardless" grates on my last nerve. From mneme at io.com Fri Oct 1 12:59:24 2004 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:59:24 -0500 Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20041001191305.80048.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <16731.2544.625912.902533@fnord.io.com> <20041001191305.80048.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16733.46876.538318.456388@fnord.io.com> Jerry Friedman writes: >--- Joshua Kronengold wrote: >> Jerry Friedman writes: >> >> The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires >> >> is to destroy the Great Cycle. >> No. >> Note, to support my point, that the Orca are, basically, the merchant >> middle class...the obvious predicessor to a Teckla communist >> revolution. >I hadn't considered that, and I think it support my suggestion >that Kelly's movement could succeed as the Cycle turns from the >Orca to the Teckla, at the expense of my other suggestions. Happy to support that, since it was what I figured that Verra meant. >I don't think it's settled, though. Nah. It ain't settled until the bodies are buried. >> When did Verra indicate that a communist revolution would last >> indefinately? >She indicated (thanks to lazarus for the quotation) that there was >a lot of truth in what Kelly was reading. Sure. I assumed that this was the "way current society works" and that "a lot of truth" meant it wasn't -all- true, but others may differ. >I would *guess* that a Hungarian-American >Trotskyite sympathizer would say that the USSR and its satellites >weren't really Communist any time after 1927, I might even agree with this, true. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From worldserpent at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 13:14:02 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:14:02 -1000 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:30:55 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > Steve has started off with existing fantasies of elves and played with > them in a realistic way. It is interesting that Tolkein has elves > basically dying out as humans replace them - despite their immortality. > The elves don't really "die out," though, they go to the West in boats, when their divine purpose is completed. (Oh great, now I'm imagining Sethra as Galadriel) I'm not a huge Tolkien fan, but I recall that the elves are sort of divine assistants who planned to leave all along. It is sort of interesting that the Dragaeran elves are also "more divine" and higher status in the eyes of the gods than the humans, but I'm not really impressed by the Dragaeran gods as moral figures. > Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has made > them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. Wait, didn't Tolkien's elves sexually reproduce? > > He also has shown us peasants who live with a lot of same-old same-old. > We all know how difficult it is to keep someone a peasant after turning > them into soldiers and letting them see the world. He can return as a > farmer, but a much more worldy farmer. > I thought in Orca there were mentions of Teckla who had gone to the city. I figured that the Orb was sort of supposed to be like the early industrial rev. All you need is some enterprising sorcerers using magic to improve agriculture, and then you'll see some change, possibly. > It appears we will be seeing more of the impacts of social changes in this > series. We have only been slightly introduced to the serfs who haven't > yet been impacted by these tremendous changes. Are they really serfs though? I thought they were peasants and just required to pay taxes. > > The real interesting thing here will be how Steve has this modernization > work within the Cycle. I believe that's what he's going to do. The > social forces of change are too big to revert, and I don't think he wants > to destroy the cycle. > Agreed, but we don't know how much of what the characters think is divinely ordained really is (it might be we have moderate reform rather than revolution), and that stuff about thirty-one tribes previously existing makes me suspicious. How can the Jhereg be divinely ordained if Dolivar made them up? BTW, regarding all of these social changes. Since Norathar, from the Paarfi books, apparently succeeds in an orderly fashion, I'm wondering if Vlad will extend his lifetime either through time-travel or by using the methods Brimford and Arra have to see it. Or would this make him too superhuman, if he isn't, already? Charmian From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 13:21:06 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:21:06 +0200 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality Message-ID: >From: Charmian >On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:30:55 -0600, Howard Brazee >wrote: > > Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has made > > them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. > >Wait, didn't Tolkien's elves sexually reproduce? They do it with the lights out, as modestly clothed as possibly. And not for fun, but for the country. ;) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From worldserpent at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 13:31:44 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:31:44 -1000 Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20041001194033.95118.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <415C19D3.4000004@earthlink.net> <20041001194033.95118.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59e251ba04100113312ef9b26a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Jose Marquez wrote: > > > Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: [snip] > > > > I would say that another huge objection is that Vlad hates Kelly, and > > while he would be tempted to take Verra and the other Lords of Judgment > > to task (using his new toy) for various reasons, I don't think that he > > would really do it unless he had a better reason than Kelly wanting him > > to. > > As I recall, though, he told Kelly at the end of _Teckla_ that > he respects what Kelly's doing. That might be a good reason. > And as Kiera says in _Orca_, maybe being good at something is the > best reason to do it. *shudder* I thought from Phoenix that Vlad dislikes Kelly personally because he doesn't agree with him that Cawti shouldn't be willing to sacrifice herself for the movement, but I always found that questionable on Vlad's part because it was really Cawti who was the source of his anger. I got that Vlad sympathized with Kelly's anger, but didn't agree with his methods; I thought the book was sort of depressing, like Orca, where Vlad is unable to get at the real villains, because Vlad has this real justified anger at the establishment (in Phoenix, when Vlad fantasizes about the downfall of the empire), but other than the way that Kelly has, which he rejects on moral grounds and on practical grounds, what can he do? I don't think that Verra and co. really think Kelly is a threat to the Cycle, unless he makes a deal with the Jenoine or another god or something. Charmian From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 1 13:56:43 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <16733.46876.538318.456388@fnord.io.com> References: <16731.2544.625912.902533@fnord.io.com> <20041001191305.80048.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <16733.46876.538318.456388@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: > Jerry Friedman writes: > > >I would *guess* that a Hungarian-American > >Trotskyite sympathizer would say that the USSR and its satellites > >weren't really Communist any time after 1927, I think you want "communist". And was there actually a communist state before 1927? My sense was that communism has never been implemented for any duration on a scale larger than a small Shaker village. From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 1 13:59:16 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:59:16 -0600 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:14:02 -1000, Charmian wrote: >> Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has > made >> them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. > Wait, didn't Tolkien's elves sexually reproduce? With the amount of highly sexed beings in faerie, they seem to be relatively "pure", not likely to work in houses of prostitution. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 1 14:00:50 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:00:50 -0600 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:14:02 -1000, Charmian wrote: > BTW, regarding all of these social changes. Since Norathar, from the > Paarfi books, apparently succeeds in an orderly fashion, I'm wondering > if Vlad will extend his lifetime either through time-travel or by > using the methods Brimford and Arra have to see it. Or would this make > him too superhuman, if he isn't, already? The Once and Future Assassin? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 14:04:26 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041001210426.66803.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > > Jerry Friedman writes: > > > > >I would *guess* that a Hungarian-American > > >Trotskyite sympathizer would say that the USSR and its satellites > > >weren't really Communist any time after 1927, > > I think you want "communist". Having decided against that once already, now I think you may be right. > And was there actually a communist state > before 1927? My sense was that communism has never been implemented for > any duration on a scale larger than a small Shaker village. I know very little about the early USSR. I would guess again that a Trotskyite sympathizer would think at least some things were at least going in the right communist direction while Trotsky had influence. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 14:10:49 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <16733.46876.538318.456388@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20041001211049.68574.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Jerry Friedman writes: > >--- Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >> Jerry Friedman writes: > >> >> The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires > >> >> is to destroy the Great Cycle. > >> No. > >> Note, to support my point, that the Orca are, basically, the merchant > >> middle class...the obvious predicessor to a Teckla communist > >> revolution. > >I hadn't considered that, and I think it support my suggestion > >that Kelly's movement could succeed as the Cycle turns from the > >Orca to the Teckla, at the expense of my other suggestions. > > Happy to support that, since it was what I figured that Verra meant. ... I think our difference is that I suggested that Kelly's movement could succeed permanently (or how about 17^17 years?). Speaking of Teckla reigns, I should correct a mistake I made earlier. I said we've only seen the Teckla at the low point of their influence, but in fact it's closer to the high point (Teckla, Jhegaala, Athyra, Phoenix). Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mam at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 1 12:52:28 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:52:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <4CDD3F89.3ED30076.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #Jose Marquez writes: # #>Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 #>jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for #>http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? # #Thanks for reminding me that I have to dig out my copy of #Zelazny's _Night in the Lonesome October_. Is anyone else #planning on reading that book one-chapter-a-day next month? Oooh, good idea! -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From casey at the-bat.net Fri Oct 1 14:21:54 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:21:54 -0400 Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20041001211049.68574.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jerry Friedman > Speaking of Teckla reigns, I should correct a mistake I > made earlier. I said we've only seen the Teckla at the > low point of their influence, but in fact it's closer to > the high point (Teckla, Jhegaala, Athyra, Phoenix). Their influence is fading rapidly. Few living in Vlad's era recall the last Teckla reign. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 1 14:27:26 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20041001211049.68574.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041001211049.68574.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: > could succeed permanently (or how about 17^17 years?). That's a bit long - most of the stars will have gone out, and it will be dark except for the occasional supernova... From mam at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 1 13:05:46 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:05:46 -0400 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical In-Reply-To: <30fb8db30fa867.30fa86730fb8db@gwu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Matthew Jennings wrote: #A little bit late... # #I'm now listening to Fortune of War, What's that? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 1 13:02:09 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:02:09 -0400 Subject: Magic versus Technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Seth Terashima wrote: #Even if technology would have little practical purpose in a magical world, #Dragaraens (especially the Hawk and Athyra) obviously value knowledge. Yet #one of the books (I forget which) implies Dragaerans haven't figured out the #world is round. How could this be? Contrary to popular misconception, #[Earth's] humans have had this figured out for quite some time - the #Egyptians not only realized the earth was a sphere, but calculated its #diameter. _Sethra Lavode_, iirc. Morrolan is astonished at the time difference (afternoon out East, morning in Adrilankha), but someone (Teldra?) explains the concept of time difference. But I think you're right, that even the explainer doesn't know why it's so. # #I think the answer to this is the presence of the Overcast. The motivation #for developing mathematics is linked with astronomy; for example, solar #calenders or calculating lattitude and longitute for navigation based on the #relative positions of stars and the horizon. Perhaps being deprived of the #stars, Dragaens never developed advanced mathematics (and therefore never #developed science or technology). (If this is correct, is this the purpose #of the Overcast?!) # #However, Vlad says that the Athyra (?) had a unit for magical energy (~ the #joule). Or the thaum? (Pratchett allusion) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 1 13:03:53 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:03:53 -0400 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: #Steve has started off with existing fantasies of elves and played with #them in a realistic way. It is interesting that Tolkein has elves #basically dying out as humans replace them - despite their immortality. Please! Tolkn. And it rhymes with "sign", not with "seen". [very nice stuff snipped] -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website -- Mark A. Mandel From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Oct 1 14:54:44 2004 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:54:44 -0400 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical Message-ID: <3113e4d3115987.31159873113e4d@gwu.edu> Should have said "The Fortune of War"... Patrick O'Brian (maybe if that message was closer to the old thread, it might have made more sense in context...) ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark A Mandel Date: Friday, October 1, 2004 4:05 pm Subject: Re: Concerning Matters Nautical > On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Matthew Jennings wrote: > > #A little bit late... > # > #I'm now listening to Fortune of War, > > What's that? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > > From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 16:05:17 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) Message-ID: <20041001230517.14959.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> --- Casey Rousseau wrote: > Jerry Friedman > > Speaking of Teckla reigns, I should correct a mistake I > > made earlier. I said we've only seen the Teckla at the > > low point of their influence, but in fact it's closer to > > the high point (Teckla, Jhegaala, Athyra, Phoenix). > > Their influence is fading rapidly. Few living in Vlad's era recall the > last > Teckla reign. I was thinking of that bit in _Jhereg_ where we learn that each house has the maximum influence during its reign and the minimum at the opposite point in the Cycle. During a Phoenix reign, the Teckla are closer to their zenith than their nadir--though yes, they're fading. Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Oct 1 16:06:47 2004 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:06:47 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: References: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041001180616.02f31e40@pop.east.cox.net> At 13:14 10/01/2004 -0400, John Klein wrote: >On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 erik at debill.org wrote: > >@> I know someone who had them recommended to her for years but never >@> started on them because she couldn't figure out which was first. She >@> has done pretty well since I started loaning them to her in order. > >Ah, but which order? Publication, of course, the same way many of us had to read them. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From erik at debill.org Fri Oct 1 17:09:33 2004 From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 19:09:33 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <104331b204100110235d78f962@mail.gmail.com> References: <200410011657.i91Gv8RM015875@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <20041001170305.GA20894@debill.org> <104331b204100110235d78f962@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041002000933.GA22381@debill.org> On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 12:23:40PM -0500, Elizabeth Harper wrote: > I recently started a teenage friend of mine on the Brust novels, > giving them to him in the order in which they were written. However, > the time jumps between novels seem to hurt his head. ;) > > This is a series in which it is impossible to start at the begining - > who knows when a book from an even earlier era might be written? Publication order still works nicely. It protects you from spoilers and the author assuming you know something from another book. The Omnibus editions make life much easier. You can just hand someone the first couple and say "Hey, you might want to try these." It might be fun to go back and try reading them in as close to chronological order as possible, though. Just for variety. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Oct 2 07:39:25 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:39:25 -0400 Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20041001194033.95118.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041001194033.95118.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <415EBD9D.8040302@earthlink.net> SPOILERS for Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, and Issola. Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Jose Marquez wrote: > > >>Jerry Friedman wrote: >> >>>--- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hmm... Maybe that's the Last Contract? Kelly hires Vlad >>>>to assassinate the Great Cycle! Another All-Expenses Paid >>>>trip to the Land of the Dead, with chisel and hammer in >>>>hand.... >>>> >>>>Okay, maybe not. >>> >>>I've taken that idea seriously since somewhere around _Phoenix_ >>>(probably on one of my re-reads). The main objection, of course, >>>is that from things Paarfi says, Norathar's reign lasts well beyond >>>Vlad's expected lifetime. Ways around that: >> >>I would say that another huge objection is that Vlad hates Kelly, and >>while he would be tempted to take Verra and the other Lords of Judgment >>to task (using his new toy) for various reasons, I don't think that he >>would really do it unless he had a better reason than Kelly wanting him >>to. > > > As I recall, though, he told Kelly at the end of _Teckla_ that > he respects what Kelly's doing. That might be a good reason. > And as Kiera says in _Orca_, maybe being good at something is the > best reason to do it. *shudder* But if you recall in Athyra and Issola, he makes his reluctance to continue killing known (In Athyra: "I won't kill for you again," mumbled while injured, possibly referring to the Jhereg, but could also be in response to Verra hiring him in Phoenix; in Issola: he ostensibly goes to Verra's place to kill her, but he doesn't really intend to; rather, he double-crosses the Jenoine by plotting against them with her help). He'll do it out of necessity, but it's highly unlikely that he'll agree to be a hired killer just because he's good at it. And while he assassinates Domm in Orca, that seems to be more out of a sense of justice than anything. So I guess you could argue that he's going to get paid in different coin, much like Dragons are in battle. >>Especially after knowing that Kelly's ideas won't work in the >>current Empire. > > I'm not sure Vlad would trust Verra on that. On the other hand, > from what Steven posted, Verra might be right. I think that she is. In 10,000 years, there might be a Teckla republic long enough to implement those ideas, but I think that unless they can manage to break the Cycle, once their turn is up, it'll be time for the next reign. I think that those ideas need both the right circumstances and the destruction of the Cycle to work: it's unlikely that any revolution will work out during, say, a Dragon reign, and even if they somehow break the Cycle, they've got to convince everyone that their way is the best way, as even with superior numbers of peasants, the army (i.e. Dragons and Dzur) can start mowing them down if they don't agree with the premise of revolution. >>Maybe Vlad can manage to live long enough to see those >>ideas be viable, but not Kelly and his supporters. > > Well, okay, but if Kelly isn't around to annoy Vlad any more, > doesn't that remove your objection? Well, it removes the entire premise (that of Kelly hiring Vlad to take out the Lords of Judgment), and thus there would be nothing to object to. My objection was based on the fact that I don't think Vlad would willingly work for Kelly, because of the personal dislike he has for him, as well as the fact that it bothers Vlad that Kelly doesn't care about casualties and is willing to sacrifice whoever is necessary to achieve his goal. Armed with what Verra told Vlad (and Kelly, but he doesn't listen to gods), Vlad knows that Kelly's movement is just going to get a lot of innocent people killed, mostly Easterners and quite possibly his wife, and he has no desire to help that along. Whether Vlad would be willing to take out the Lords of Judgment for some other agency is a different question. I would think not, unless they really screw him, and as the holder of a Great Weapon that is quite a threat to them, they better make sure he never finds out if they go and screw him. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From davids at Kithrup.COM Sat Oct 2 10:08:55 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <415EBD9D.8040302@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Jose Marquez wrote: >SPOILERS for Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, and Issola. >Jerry Friedman wrote: >> --- Jose Marquez wrote: >> >> > >>>Especially after knowing that Kelly's ideas won't work in the >>>current Empire. >> I'm not sure Vlad would trust Verra on that. On the other hand, >> from what Steven posted, Verra might be right. >I think that she is. In 10,000 years, there might be a Teckla >republic long enough to implement those ideas, but I think that >unless they can manage to break the Cycle, once their turn is up, >it'll be time for the next reign. Once the revolution comes, it may well be that the Cycle will change, but the political and economic system will still be a socialist republic. Remember, as both Kiera and Zerika point out, the Emperor is just the one who keeps things working. If the political system changes, it could end up that the "Empress" is just the President of the elected Parliament. That person can change as the Cycle changes, with no great effect on the body of representatives. Perhaps the Emperor still gets to choose a cabinet of important officials, such as the Warlord and the Court Sorceror, but since they would serve policy rather than making it, I don't see that making too much of a difference. I can also see the Cycle transition changing so that it is no longer considered necessary to do so by bloodshed. I can see the whole thing as a ceremony that occurs once every 17 years, once 17^2 years of reign are up. The next Heir approaches the Emperor, and officially requests the Orb. If the Orb refuses to move, then obviously the reign isn't up yet, and no harm done. If the Orb *does* move, the new Empress/President of the Parliament is sworn in (or whatever), and the cycle has changed. Now, it might well be pointed out that a change in Cycle includes a change in society, so that a Dragon reign is more warlike, or a Hawk reign is more intellectual and introverted, but I figure that to most people, such changes won't make *that* much of a difference. Of course, I could be wrong on all counts. Who can say? From mr1 at rcosta.com Sat Oct 2 21:59:02 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:59:02 -0400 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> References: Message-ID: <415F4ED6.6797.1F5A9320@localhost> On 1 Oct 2004 at 10:14, Charmian wrote: > > BTW, regarding all of these social changes. Since Norathar, from the > Paarfi books, apparently succeeds in an orderly fashion, I'm wondering > if Vlad will extend his lifetime either through time-travel or by > using the methods Brimford and Arra have to see it. Or would this make > him too superhuman, if he isn't, already? > > Charmian There is also the possibility of reincarnation for Vlad. mr1 at rcosta.com From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 2 18:13:57 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:13:57 -0400 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Charmian writes: #Are they really serfs though? I thought they were peasants and just #required to pay taxes. _Athyra_, page 198 (Ace edition , printed April 1993; Chapter 15): [Vlad to Savn, a Teckla peasant boy:] "[...] First of all, the only reason you think he's so wonderful is because you know people from Bigcliff, who have a real scum of a Dzurlord. So what makes your Darin so great is that you have someone horrible to compare them with. As I recall, you weren't very impressed when you learned that I could have done worse things to you than I did, and you were right. As far as I'm concerned, saying someone could be much worse is not much of a recommendation." Savn shook his head. "But he's never done anything to us." Vlad's eyebrows twitched. "Doesn't he come by and pick the best portion of your crop, and take it for himself?" "Well of course, but that's just --" -------- Yes, all we have here literally is taxes, but I think it plainly implied that there's a lot more. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 2 18:16:17 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:16:17 -0400 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: #On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:14:02 -1000, Charmian wrote: # #> BTW, regarding all of these social changes. Since Norathar, from the #> Paarfi books, apparently succeeds in an orderly fashion, I'm wondering #> if Vlad will extend his lifetime either through time-travel or by #> using the methods Brimford and Arra have to see it. Or would this make #> him too superhuman, if he isn't, already? # #The Once and Future Assassin? Don't count Godslayer out either.great weapons preserve the lives of their owners. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is perfect.] From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 2 18:00:03 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:00:03 -0400 Subject: Magic versus technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [James Griffin:] #The point of that was that in the Paths, sorcery was impossible, hence Vlad #did it (the once in a lifetime transport of a certain object) with #witchcraft. I believe sorcery can transport *items*, but not perhaps in #bulk? [Jeff G.:] #As I recall, in FHYA, there is a rather lengthy Paarfism on teleportation, #in which it is stated that the teleportation of objects is rather common, #but until then no one had been successfull in teleporting themselves or #anyone else, except for one rather messy exception. _ _The Lord of Castle Black_, page 295 (Chapter 57, "Pel's Plan"): As the reader has, no doubt, deduced, more and more of those who had been at the temple were arriving at Dzur Mountain and, brought over by the sorcerous abilities of Tazendra, at times aided by the Enchantress herself. This could not be done at a great pace -- as is well known, the casting of difficult spells requires a degree of concentration that cannot be maintained over long periods of time, and, moreover, the spell which permitted such movement was still clumsy and difficult, having not yet been refined by the Athyras Krimel and Thrace who would do such tremendous work at Twabridge University. However, it should be added that to transport non-living material was rather easier, and so, while only forty or forty-five persons had, as of yet, been brought to Dzur Mountain, a greater amount, at least in weight, and consisting mostly of food and fodder, had gone the other way. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 17:24:46 2004 From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <104331b204100110235d78f962@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041003002446.98956.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> I think there's something about us teens that makes us fixed on reading things in chronological order. I lent the earlier books to a friend of mine, and she had a "hissy cow" because they weren't in order. For me, I read the whole series out of order because I coudn't get my hands on the earlier novels at first. I don't think it really matters, except for maybe parts regarding a certain undead, which I didn't even notice when I read Issola before Orca. Elizabeth Harper wrote: I recently started a teenage friend of mine on the Brust novels, giving them to him in the order in which they were written. However, the time jumps between novels seem to hurt his head. ;) This is a series in which it is impossible to start at the begining - who knows when a book from an even earlier era might be written? On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:03:05 -0500, erik at debill.org wrote: > On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 09:57:08AM -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > I've found a few in the younger crowd, whereupon I > > toss Brust books their way and insist they be read > > and returned. The latter, sadly, doesn't seem to happen > > as often, but it gives me the chance to buy more Brust > > books. > > > > I know someone who had them recommended to her for years but never > started on them because she couldn't figure out which was first. She > has done pretty well since I started loaning them to her in order. > > -- > Well I'm walking through the sand > In the desert of my mind > And I don't remember what it was > That I came here to find > -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone" > Yihan Y IM: BLackDRagoness16 Xanga&LJ username: bluedraikon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! From moghan_david at yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 16:26:11 2004 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UberCon In-Reply-To: <1096575413.2373.41.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041002232611.31458.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Mr. Brust. If you are out there in cyberland. What is your schedule going to be like for Ubercon? There website is not the best on getting info? Thanks, Looking forward to meeting you! Rob --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Oct 2 23:43:30 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 02:43:30 EDT Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) Message-ID: <99.4e3b4219.2e90f992@aol.com> Jose Marquez wrote on Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:39:25 -0400 >Whether Vlad would be willing to take out the Lords of Judgment for >some other agency is a different question. I would think not, unless >they really screw him, (spoiler for Issola removed), they better make >sure he never finds out if they go and screw him. Hi, I would add that the Lords of Judgment better hope Vlad never finds out what they have done to him already. I think the Lords of Judgment had a discussion right after Issola about what should be done about Vlad. Said discussion might still be going on. Do they decide Vlad is a useful weapon after all his training or is Vlad too dangerous? Do they decide to attempt to destroy (spoiler for Issola removed) again? Bye. Linda G. From casey at the-bat.net Sun Oct 3 01:45:11 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 04:45:11 -0400 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <20041003002446.98956.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c4a925$4bf5a390$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Y Y wrote: > This is a series in which it is impossible to start at the > begining - who knows when a book from an even earlier era > might be written? > Copyright dates? Casey From s1burns at ucsd.edu Sun Oct 3 02:06:55 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 02:06:55 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. References: <002901c4a925$4bf5a390$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <001901c4a928$54c8d390$6400a8c0@Soltan> Casey Rousseau wrote: > Y Y wrote: >> This is a series in which it is impossible to start at the >> begining - who knows when a book from an even earlier era >> might be written? >> > > Copyright dates? > > Casey Copyright dates indeed...including the Parfiad. Shawn From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 3 06:49:09 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:49:09 -0600 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <20041003002446.98956.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c4a94f$c2858fa0$b07ba8c0@Dad133> Y Y wrote: > I think there's something about us teens that makes us fixed on > reading things in chronological order. I lent the earlier books to a > friend of mine, and she had a "hissy cow" because they weren't in > order. What's the best order to watch the Star Wars movies? (Heck, to watch _Pulp Fiction_)? From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Sun Oct 3 07:04:42 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 16:04:42 +0200 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: >Howard Brazee wrote >Y Y wrote: > > I think there's something about us teens that makes us fixed on > > reading things in chronological order. I lent the earlier books to a > > friend of mine, and she had a "hissy cow" because they weren't in > > order. > >What's the best order to watch the Star Wars movies? (Heck, to watch _Pulp >Fiction_)? The best order to watch Star Wars? Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Those three are all you need. ;) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 3 07:40:16 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 08:40:16 -0600 Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <99.4e3b4219.2e90f992@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c4a956$e6f5b340$b07ba8c0@Dad133> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > I think the Lords of Judgment had a discussion right after Issola > about what should be done about Vlad. Said discussion might still > be going on. Do they decide Vlad is a useful weapon after all his > training or is Vlad too dangerous? Do they decide to attempt to > destroy (spoiler for Issola removed) again? It's real hard for us to discuss this as we have no idea how they expect to use Vlad. I'm not even sure they have much of an idea - their powers and minds are sufficiently different from ours that they might have more trust in their abilities to make cryptic oracles than in anything detailed and solid. Maybe they have full trust in "Vlad will be essential for this goal - after he has the required tools and training". Which doesn't mean that "this goal" is what they think it is, nor if it would be desirable. (Think "defeat my enemy"). And certainly they can argue whether **spoiler** is an appropriate tool. Even gods can use self-interest to cloud the way thy look at things. From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Oct 3 08:02:07 2004 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 10:02:07 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. References: Message-ID: <001701c4a959$f4097320$44600d44@user79dn2jmjai> > > > >>Howard Brazee wrote >>Y Y wrote: >> > I think there's something about us teens that makes us fixed on >> > reading things in chronological order. I lent the earlier books to a >> > friend of mine, and she had a "hissy cow" because they weren't in >> > order. >> >>What's the best order to watch the Star Wars movies? (Heck, to watch >>_Pulp >>Fiction_)? > > The best order to watch Star Wars? Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and > Return of the Jedi. Those three are all you need. ;) > these movies are the only ones you are looking for, the other three are not the movies you seek /waves hand in jedilike fashion.... andy recaging my inner geek..... From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 3 08:49:55 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:49:55 -0600 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <001701c4a959$f4097320$44600d44@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <000001c4a960$a1b64c90$b07ba8c0@Dad133> bonham15 wrote: >>> Howard Brazee wrote >>> Y Y wrote: >>>> I think there's something about us teens that makes us fixed on >>>> reading things in chronological order. I lent the earlier books to >>>> a friend of mine, and she had a "hissy cow" because they weren't in >>>> order. >>> >>> What's the best order to watch the Star Wars movies? (Heck, to >>> watch _Pulp Fiction_)? >> >> The best order to watch Star Wars? Star Wars, The Empire Strikes >> Back and Return of the Jedi. Those three are all you need. ;) >> > these movies are the only ones you are looking for, the other three > are not the movies you seek /waves hand in jedilike fashion.... > > andy > > recaging my inner geek..... Even more than the other three - the doppelgangers of the first three. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 3 12:52:32 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:52:32 EDT Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <87.179254d6.2e91b280@aol.com> From: Y Y wrote Sat, 2 Oct 2004 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) >For me, I read the whole series out of order because I coudn't get >my hands on the earlier novels at first. I don't think it really >matters, except for maybe parts regarding a certain undead, which >I didn't even notice when I read Issola before Orca. This is what Steven Brust wanted to achieve. Author's Note Ace trade paperback edition The Book of Jhereg, The Book of Athyra (which has latest chronological order listing of The Adventures of Vlad Taltos) and The Book of Taltos: "I made every effort to write them so they could be read in any order. I am aware that, in some measure at least, I have failed (I certainly wouldn't recommend starting with Teckla, for example)" Elizabeth Harper wrote on Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:23:40 -0500 >This is a series in which it is impossible to start at the begining - >who knows when a book from an even earlier era might be written? In response Casey Rousseau wrote on Sun, 3 Oct 2004 04:45:11 -0400 >Copyright dates? Publication order or chronological order? Wait a new order available. Hmmm, new readers should read in Copyright order...read Jhereg wait a year, read Yendi wait 3 years, read Teckla...Heh! If you have only read in publication order, you should try a reread at least once in chronological order starting with The Phoenix Guards. This is a little hard to do with Dragon. To Elizabeth Harper, Yes, you only have a current beginning. I am hoping for an explanation of why Vlad's memory was messed with in Taltos (mentioned in Dragon). This could involve something that happened in Taltos or it could involve something that happened before Taltos. And maybe only Steven Brust knows where Dzur will fit exactly into the chronological order. Bye. Linda G. From worldserpent at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 13:44:03 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 10:44:03 -1000 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <87.179254d6.2e91b280@aol.com> References: <87.179254d6.2e91b280@aol.com> Message-ID: <59e251ba04100313443338caee@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:52:32 EDT, frieda2133 at aol.com wrote: > From: Y Y wrote Sat, 2 Oct 2004 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) [snip] > "I made every effort to write them so they could be read in any order. > I am aware that, in some measure at least, I have failed (I certainly > wouldn't recommend starting with Teckla, for example)" > Yes, I read Issola first, because it was the only one I could find at the outset, though I found myself mostly confused, so I don't recommend reading it before the rest. I don't think I'd recommend starting with Taltos, because it's just too frustrating listening to all these cryptic conversations. (Actually, I think Brust is evil, er, clever, for doing this, because he is forcing you to read every single book in the series. For example, in Issola, the events of Orca are unspoiled. We don't hear that spoilery thing about Sethra revealed at the end of Orca, and Morrolan barely avoids suffering the wrath of Cawti by almost revealing the other spoilery thing at the end of Orca. But it's rather bizarre to read Jhereg after Issola, because the relations between the characters seem to be different.) [snip] > To Elizabeth Harper, > > Yes, you only have a current beginning. I am hoping for an > explanation of why Vlad's memory was messed with in Taltos > (mentioned in Dragon). This could involve something that happened > in Taltos or it could involve something that happened before Taltos. > [snip] I thought the memory problem was caused by Vlad being hit with the spell in Dragon? Charmian From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 3 21:05:43 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 00:05:43 EDT Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <9e.1601ec04.2e922617@aol.com> Charmian wrote on Sun, 3 Oct 2004 10:44:03 -1000 >I thought the memory problem was caused by Vlad being hit with the >spell in Dragon? Cracks and Shards! Am I reading something between the text that is not there again? Or are we writing about different memory problems? Dragon paperback Chapter 1 "MEMORY IS LIKE A WATCHACALLIT" page 15. "I woke up one morning remembering something I'd forgotten the day before. I'd been having a one-sided conversation with a metal box, much as I'm doing now...but then, the morning after I'd finished, I realized what I'd forgotten, and my first thought was that someone had been playing with my memories. My second thought was that, if this were true, I was going to hurt someone. My third thought was to consider, if someone was repressing my memories, who that someone had to be. This was chilling, and it brought me fully awake, which led to one of those sessions of "How much was a dream?"... Vlad says "As you approach the Falls, do you remember there being a large statue." Loiosh says "Sure, Boss where Morrolan performed that embarrassing ritual. What about it?" ... "That was then, and it illustrates what a tricky thing memory is: I had forgotten something important that had happened just days before, yet now, more than three years later, I remember waking up and talking to Loiosh about it. Interesting, isn't it?" The Paths of the Dead paperback Chapter 29 page 319 "larger-than-life sculpture of a man"..."Kieron the Conqueror" No mention of this sculpture in Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 10, page 100. Two sessions with a metal box. One for Taltos and one for Dragon. Taltos finished with a large statue and embarrassing ritual missing >from the one-sided conversation. The next morning, Vlad remembers what happened days before. Taltos doesn't get corrected because Vlad does not know how to do that or does not care. Three years later, Dragon session with the metal box is taking place and Vlad talks about how he could remember talking to Loiosh three years ago; but when Taltos was finished, he forgot about what happened just days before. I think that if this memory problem was caused by the spell in Dragon, Vlad would not have thought someone was repressing his memories. Bye. Linda G. From books at bofh.com Sun Oct 3 20:53:09 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:53:09 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <87.179254d6.2e91b280@aol.com> References: <87.179254d6.2e91b280@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041004035309.GA28903@bofh.com> On Sun, Oct 03, 2004 at 03:52:32PM -0400, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > And maybe only Steven Brust knows where Dzur will fit exactly into > the chronological order. We don't let that stop us from speculating. If I were going to lay money I'd guess it happens before _Orca_ and after _Phoenix_. I believe we'll find out here how Vlad came to lose a finger. His different accounts make the most sense if he was facing a Dzurlord. (Weapons and sorcery are both cited. Text refs left as an exercise to the reader :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From erik at debill.org Mon Oct 4 09:03:03 2004 From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:03:03 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <9e.1601ec04.2e922617@aol.com> References: <9e.1601ec04.2e922617@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041004160303.GA32191@debill.org> On Mon, Oct 04, 2004 at 12:05:43AM -0400, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > "That was then, and it illustrates what a tricky thing memory is: I > had forgotten something important that had happened just days > before, yet now, more than three years later, I remember waking up > and talking to Loiosh about it. Interesting, isn't it?" > > > I think that if this memory problem was caused by the spell in > Dragon, Vlad would not have thought someone was repressing > his memories. I'm going to have to vote for "something just slipped his mind". It happens to all of us as we grow older. I know that if I tried to recount everything I did last weekend I'd leave things out. Him wondering if someone is messing with his mind is just paranoia. That's how I read it at the time and I've not seen anything that really changes my mind. -- Well I'm walking through the sand In the desert of my mind And I don't remember what it was That I came here to find -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone" From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 14:15:08 2004 From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <20041004160303.GA32191@debill.org> Message-ID: <20041004211508.75000.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> erik at debill.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 04, 2004 at 12:05:43AM -0400, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > "That was then, and it illustrates what a tricky thing memory is: I > had forgotten something important that had happened just days > before, yet now, more than three years later, I remember waking up > and talking to Loiosh about it. Interesting, isn't it?" > > > I think that if this memory problem was caused by the spell in > Dragon, Vlad would not have thought someone was repressing > his memories. I'm going to have to vote for "something just slipped his mind". It happens to all of us as we grow older. I know that if I tried to recount everything I did last weekend I'd leave things out. Him wondering if someone is messing with his mind is just paranoia. That's how I read it at the time and I've not seen anything that really changes my mind. Slightly off topic here, but in that same part of the book, Loiosh mentions something about Morrolan's embarrassing ritual. I can't seem to recall what he was eluding to. Sorry if this question was posted earlier on the list. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 15:57:50 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 15:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <415EBD9D.8040302@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20041004225750.19033.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jose Marquez wrote: > SPOILERS for Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, and Issola. . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > Jerry Friedman wrote: > > --- Jose Marquez wrote: [On the possibility that Vlad will destroy the Cycle] > >>I would say that another huge objection is that Vlad hates Kelly, and > >>while he would be tempted to take Verra and the other Lords of > Judgment > >>to task (using his new toy) for various reasons, I don't think that he > >>would really do it unless he had a better reason than Kelly wanting > >>him to. > > > > > > As I recall, though, he told Kelly at the end of _Teckla_ that > > he respects what Kelly's doing. That might be a good reason. > > And as Kiera says in _Orca_, maybe being good at something is the > > best reason to do it. *shudder* > > But if you recall in Athyra and Issola, he makes his reluctance to > continue killing known (In Athyra: "I won't kill for you again," mumbled > > while injured, possibly referring to the Jhereg, but could also be in > response to Verra hiring him in Phoenix; in Issola: he ostensibly goes > to Verra's place to kill her, but he doesn't really intend to; rather, > he double-crosses the Jenoine by plotting against them with her help). > He'll do it out of necessity, but it's highly unlikely that he'll agree > to be a hired killer just because he's good at it. And while he > assassinates Domm in Orca, that seems to be more out of a sense of > justice than anything. So I guess you could argue that he's going to get > paid in different coin, much like Dragons are in battle. I think that's something like what I'm arguing. > >>Especially after knowing that Kelly's ideas won't work in the > >>current Empire. > > > > I'm not sure Vlad would trust Verra on that. On the other hand, > > from what Steven posted, Verra might be right. > > I think that she is. In 10,000 years, there might be a Teckla republic > long enough to implement those ideas, but I think that unless they can > manage to break the Cycle, once their turn is up, it'll be time for the > next reign. I think that those ideas need both the right circumstances > and the destruction of the Cycle to work: it's unlikely that any > revolution will work out during, say, a Dragon reign, and even if they > somehow break the Cycle, they've got to convince everyone that their way > is the best way, as even with superior numbers of peasants, the army > (i.e. Dragons and Dzur) can start mowing them down if they don't agree > with the premise of revolution. The Teckla need enough spellcasters (some of whom could be Teckla, like Paresh) to protect themselves from military magic to the point where their numbers tell. They don't have to convince everyone. As I understand it, the classic ways for them to work are to (a) point out the justice of their cause (might work on Lyorns and Iorich) (b) go on strike (might help, especially with the more mercantile types) (c) provoke the government, by atrocities if necessary (would Kelly do that?), so the government clamps down and gets everyone mad at it (might work quite well on the nobler houses--and by the way, no points for parallels with current events) (d) I thought I had something else in mind too. Somebody must be tampering with my memory. The apparent incompatibility between (a) and the atrocity part of (c) has not bothered some revolutionaries or interfered with their success. It sure bothers me, though. > >>Maybe Vlad can manage to live long enough to see those > >>ideas be viable, but not Kelly and his supporters. > > > > Well, okay, but if Kelly isn't around to annoy Vlad any more, > > doesn't that remove your objection? > > Well, it removes the entire premise (that of Kelly hiring Vlad to take > out the Lords of Judgment), and thus there would be nothing to object > to. That wasn't my premise. We had a communication failure. > My objection was based on the fact that I don't think Vlad would > willingly work for Kelly, because of the personal dislike he has for > him, as well as the fact that it bothers Vlad that Kelly doesn't care > about casualties and is willing to sacrifice whoever is necessary to > achieve his goal. Armed with what Verra told Vlad (and Kelly, but he > doesn't listen to gods), Vlad knows that Kelly's movement is just going > to get a lot of innocent people killed, mostly Easterners and quite > possibly his wife, and he has no desire to help that along. If Vlad thinks he can destroy the Cycle, that might change his view. > Whether Vlad would be willing to take out the Lords of Judgment for some > other agency is a different question. I would think not, unless they > really screw him, and as the holder of a Great Weapon that is quite a > threat to them, they better make sure he never finds out if they go and > screw him. I wasn't imagining that Kelly would hire Vlad to "work" on the gods. More that Kelly and the gods and whoever else would put Vlad in such a bind that killing the gods seems like a good idea. After all, he's good at assassination. And he won't tell anyone what he's doing--he never does. Of course, if this happened, Kelly or his distant successor would take credit. It was historically inevitable. Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Oct 4 21:27:38 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 00:27:38 EDT Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: Y Y wrote Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:15:08 -0700 (PDT) >Slightly off topic here, but in that same part of the book, Loiosh >mentions something about Morrolan's embarrassing ritual. I can't >seem to recall what he was eluding to. Sorry if this question was >posted earlier on the list. Heh! We left Original topic some time ago: Original topic was: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. If you wish to see the comic Frank wrote about, you have to go to the October 1, 2004 comic. From: Frank Mayhar wrote on Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:57:45 -0700 (PDT) >http://www.reallifecomics.com/ This might work for a while http://www.reallifecomics.com/daily.php?strip_id=1290 Y Y, you cannot recall what Loiosh talks about, because Vlad forgot the embarrassing ritual and the large statue (of D*livar's brother I believe) and it has not been written in a book yet. This was the memory problem I was talking about. Dragon paperback Chapter 1 "MEMORY IS LIKE A WATCHACALLIT" page 15. Vlad says "As you approach the Falls, do you remember there being a large statue." Loiosh says "Sure, Boss where Morrolan performed that embarrassing ritual. What about it?" ... The Paths of the Dead paperback Chapter 29 page 319 "larger-than-life sculpture of a man"..."Kieron the Conqueror" No mention of this sculpture in Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 10, page 100. erik.debill.org wrote on Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:03:03 -0500 on the memory problem: >I'm going to have to vote for "something just slipped his mind". It >happens to all of us as we grow older. I know that if I tried to >recount everything I did last weekend I'd leave things out. Him >wondering if someone is messing with his mind is just paranoia. >That's how I read it at the time and I've not seen anything that >really changes my mind. Erik, does this change your mind that it isn't just a memory slip up? The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 7, page 73 on Aliera's soul. Sethra says "we have located it, with your help, as well as the help of ...well, some others." The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 14, page 142 Aliera says "Who tracked me down?" Morrolan answers. "Sethra and I, he said, watching her face. He glanced at me quickly, then said, "And there were others who helped, some time ago." Who are the others? Why not mention their names? Why the quick glance at Vlad? Why mention in Dragon Morrolan's embarrassing ritual that happened in Taltos if we are never going to be told about it? As I said Cracks and Shards! Am I reading something between the text that is not there again? A quick glance and I am thinking who would be useful in tracking down Aliera's soul some time ago. Maybe her brother? Maybe Mario? Or it was just Steven Brust's way of explaining why a large statue was not mentioned in Taltos but was mentioned in The Paths of the Dead. And as Erik said also showing that Vlad is paranoid. Vlad has plenty of reasons to be paranoid. Bye. Linda G. From davids at Kithrup.COM Mon Oct 4 21:59:14 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 7, page 73 on Aliera's soul. >Sethra says "we have located it, with your help, as well as the >help of ...well, some others." > >The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 14, page 142 >Aliera says "Who tracked me down?" Morrolan answers. "Sethra and >I, he said, watching her face. He glanced at me quickly, then >said, "And there were others who helped, some time ago." >Who are the others? Why not mention their names? Why the quick >glance at Vlad? Well, I had a pararectal notion about that, which I shall disclose now: The "others" were Aliera's mother and daughter, Verra and Devera. And the thought going through Sethra's mind was probably something like "I *really* don't want to start explaining *that* right now", so she didn't give their names. Morrolan's quick glance at Vlad was probably because Vlad had helped too, but Morrolan didn't want to go into the fact that they had needed the help of a Jhereg (and/or Easterner). It's also possible that he didn't know the names of the others, for that matter, and didn't want to confess his ignorance. And if he *did* know, *he* probably didn't want to get into explaining all that just now. Who can say? From s1burns at ucsd.edu Mon Oct 4 22:02:10 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:02:10 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. References: Message-ID: <013501c4aa98$788ddb10$6400a8c0@Soltan> >From: October 04, 2004 9:27 PM >Subject: Re: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. > > The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 7, page 73 on Aliera's soul. > Sethra says "we have located it, with your help, as well as the help of > ...well, some others." > > The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 14, page 142 > Aliera says "Who tracked me down?" > Morrolan answers. "Sethra and I, he said, watching her face. He glanced > at me quickly, then said, "And there were others who helped, some time > ago." > > Who are the others? Why not mention their names? Why the quick glance at > Vlad? Why mention in Dragon Morrolan's embarrassing ritual that happened > in Taltos if we are never going to be told about it? > > As I said Cracks and Shards! Am I reading something between the text that > is > not there again? A quick glance and I am thinking who would be useful in > tracking down Aliera's soul some time ago. Maybe her brother? Maybe > Mario? Vlad is secretly Mario. :} > Or it was just Steven Brust's way of explaining why a large statue was not > mentioned in Taltos but was mentioned in The Paths of the Dead. And as > Erik > said also showing that Vlad is paranoid. Vlad has plenty of reasons to be > paranoid. Because he is Mario and he doesn't even want himself to find out. :} Shawn From casey at the-bat.net Tue Oct 5 06:04:57 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:04:57 -0400 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <013501c4aa98$788ddb10$6400a8c0@Soltan> Message-ID: Shawn wrote: > Vlad is secretly Mario. :} Not happening. Mario couldn't pass for a sixteen to twenty something Easterner with whiskers. From aejoubert at hotmail.com Tue Oct 5 06:25:36 2004 From: aejoubert at hotmail.com (Andrew Joubert) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:25:36 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: >From: "Casey Rousseau" >To: >Subject: RE: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:04:57 -0400 > >Shawn wrote: > > Vlad is secretly Mario. :} > >Not happening. Mario couldn't pass for a sixteen to twenty something >Easterner with whiskers. > Vlad could be Mario reincarnated. Which still leaves an issue with Vlad and Aliera's relationship vs Mario and Aliera's relationship. Speaking of reincarnation and all. Oh, and Mario can do whatever he wants. Just ask Vlad. --Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 5 06:45:37 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Charmian wrote: @> > Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has made @> > them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. @> @> Wait, didn't Tolkien's elves sexually reproduce? Not only did they reproduce sexually, their immortality was due to continuous reincarnation. They were not physically immortal, just very long-lived. (Whether that's an intentional reference by Brust or just a coincidence... dunno.) From den at monger.net Tue Oct 5 07:02:10 2004 From: den at monger.net (den at monger.net) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4987.68.162.221.84.1096984930.squirrel@monger.net> > On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Charmian wrote: > > @> > Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has > made > @> > them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. > @> > @> Wait, didn't Tolkien's elves sexually reproduce? > > Not only did they reproduce sexually, their immortality was due to > continuous reincarnation. They were not physically immortal, just very > long-lived. (Whether that's an intentional reference by Brust or just a > coincidence... dunno.) IIRC, that's not quite correct. Elvish immortality wasn't due specifically to reincarnation. They could reincarnate and return if they were killed--Glorfindel from THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING is an example of this--but if they didn't die by violence, they didn't die. Elves were not subject to natural aging or disease. -Dennis From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Oct 5 07:06:51 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:06:51 +0200 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality Message-ID: >Dennis wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Charmian wrote: > > > > @> > Steve has copied their willingness to fight (and die), but he has > > made > > @> > them sexual beings who can control their reproduction. > > @> > > @> Wait, didn't Tolkien's elves sexually reproduce? > > > > Not only did they reproduce sexually, their immortality was due to > > continuous reincarnation. They were not physically immortal, just very > > long-lived. (Whether that's an intentional reference by Brust or just a > > coincidence... dunno.) > >IIRC, that's not quite correct. Elvish immortality wasn't due >specifically to reincarnation. They could reincarnate and return if they >were killed--Glorfindel from THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING is an example of >this--but if they didn't die by violence, they didn't die. Elves were >not subject to natural aging or disease. > >-Dennis Glorfindel in LOTR isn't the same Glorfindel as the one in the Silmarillion. AFAIK there's no reincarnation at all in Middle Earth. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From den at monger.net Tue Oct 5 07:41:02 2004 From: den at monger.net (den at monger.net) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 07:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality Message-ID: <1088.68.162.221.84.1096987262.squirrel@monger.net> >Martin wrote: >>I wrote: >>IIRC, that's not quite correct. Elvish immortality wasn't due >>specifically to reincarnation. They could reincarnate and return if they were killed--Glorfindel from THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING is an example of this--but if they didn't die by violence, they didn't die. Elves were not subject to natural aging or disease. > Glorfindel in LOTR isn't the same Glorfindel as the one in the > Silmarillion. > AFAIK there's no reincarnation at all in Middle Earth. According to Tolkien's letters and the Histories of Middle Earth, he is. The Elves can certainly reincarnate, though I don't know if that's the proper term--rebody might be better--according to HoME, as one of Feanor's punishments for his rebellion is that he is only Elf who is not allowed to do this, and must remain in the Halls of Mandos until the end of the world. Humans, on the other hand, cannot reincarnate or rebody, or any of that stuff, because they move beyond the Circles of the World at their death. -Dennis From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Oct 5 09:43:03 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:43:03 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. References: <200410051306.i95D6Hsi015290@mailbox8.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <014801c4aafa$644a66c0$6400a8c0@Soltan> Casey wrote: > Shawn wrote: >> Vlad is secretly Mario. :} > > Not happening. Mario couldn't pass for a sixteen to twenty something > Easterner with whiskers. > This is more speculation-space than spoiler-space: It was somewhat facetious, but in thinking about it a little more, why not Vlad? Not that he, right now, is Mario. But perhaps Mario's soul is D*livar's soul. If it is true (and I don't remember where I get this is from, making it speculation) that Kieron is Devera's father then Aliera has already demonstrated an attraction for her soul-brother. If Mario really died in the Disaster, then maybe he was reborn as Vlad and everyone (Morollan, Sethra, Aliera) knows it except for him. It might explain why Aliera likes him so much. Shawn From books at bofh.com Tue Oct 5 10:19:45 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:19:45 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <014801c4aafa$644a66c0$6400a8c0@Soltan> References: <200410051306.i95D6Hsi015290@mailbox8.ucsd.edu> <014801c4aafa$644a66c0$6400a8c0@Soltan> Message-ID: <20041005171945.GA9006@bofh.com> On Tue, Oct 05, 2004 at 09:43:03AM -0700, Shawn Burns wrote: > > Casey wrote: > > >Shawn wrote: > >>Vlad is secretly Mario. :} > > > >Not happening. Mario couldn't pass for a sixteen to twenty something > >Easterner with whiskers. > > > > This is more speculation-space than spoiler-space: > > > > > > > > > It was somewhat facetious, but in thinking about it a little more, why not > Vlad? Not that he, right now, is Mario. But perhaps Mario's soul is > D*livar's soul. If it is true (and I don't remember where I get this is > from, making it speculation) that Kieron is Devera's father then Aliera has > already demonstrated an attraction for her soul-brother. If Mario really > died in the Disaster, then maybe he was reborn as Vlad and everyone > (Morollan, Sethra, Aliera) knows it except for him. It might explain why > Aliera likes him so much. Because we know Mario is alive in some form that isn't Vlad. I'm too lazy to dig through the archives, but it has been stated (as canonically as anything we maul after Steven says it) that Vlad comes in on Aliera just after Mario has left....and the implication is that they had been "busy"...I'd presume sex, but knowing those two it could have been something depraved...like dueling. :) I believe this all takes place in Jhereg. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From davids at Kithrup.COM Tue Oct 5 10:55:53 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: >On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> >>The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 7, page 73 on Aliera's soul. >>Sethra says "we have located it, with your help, as well as the >>help of ...well, some others." >> >>The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 14, page 142 > >>Aliera says "Who tracked me down?" Morrolan answers. "Sethra and >>I, he said, watching her face. He glanced at me quickly, then >>said, "And there were others who helped, some time ago." > >>Who are the others? Why not mention their names? Why the quick >>glance at Vlad? > >Well, I had a pararectal notion about that, which I shall >disclose now: > >The "others" were Aliera's mother and daughter, Verra and Devera. > >And the thought going through Sethra's mind was probably something >like "I *really* don't want to start explaining *that* right now", >so she didn't give their names. > An additional or alternative "other" is the Empress, Zerika IV, aiding the search with the use of the Orb. And they didn't want to talk about that in front of Vlad because they probably figure he's skittish enough as it is, and maybe not in front of Aliera, either, because Aliera had certain problems with the last Phoenix Emperor. As I said, all pararectal, but you did ask. From worldserpent at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 11:27:18 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:27:18 -1000 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59e251ba04100511273cbcde57@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT), David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > > >On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > >> > >>The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 7, page 73 on Aliera's soul. > >>Sethra says "we have located it, with your help, as well as the > >>help of ...well, some others." > >> > >>The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 14, page 142 > > > >>Aliera says "Who tracked me down?" Morrolan answers. "Sethra and > >>I, he said, watching her face. He glanced at me quickly, then > >>said, "And there were others who helped, some time ago." > > > >>Who are the others? Why not mention their names? Why the quick > >>glance at Vlad? > > I have to wonder. At this point, does Morrolan know that Vlad is the reincarnation of [spoiler?] (Newbie question. Is something revealed early in the first published book considered a spoiler?) Perhaps that's why he doesn't want to mention names. Since Aliera knew, and with the revelation at the end of Orca, it is possible that Sethra knew beforehand as well. Also, doesn't Loiosh stop people from messing with Vlad's mind? (See Issola) Charmian From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 5 11:30:55 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <4987.68.162.221.84.1096984930.squirrel@monger.net> References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> <4987.68.162.221.84.1096984930.squirrel@monger.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 den at monger.net wrote: @> > Not only did they reproduce sexually, their immortality was due to @> > continuous reincarnation. They were not physically immortal, just very @> > long-lived. (Whether that's an intentional reference by Brust or just a @> > coincidence... dunno.) @> @> IIRC, that's not quite correct. Elvish immortality wasn't due @> specifically to reincarnation. They could reincarnate and return if they @> were killed--Glorfindel from THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING is an example of @> this--but if they didn't die by violence, they didn't die. Elves were @> not subject to natural aging or disease. According to the Letters, everything in Middle Earth (including Elves and Wizards) grows old over time and dies. I'd pull up a cite but I don't usually bring my copy to work. This is a pretty natural outgrowth of Tolkien's Catholicism (which is, of course, the underpinning for the entire enterprise). Disease I'm less sure about. From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Tue Oct 5 11:36:25 2004 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041005183626.98640.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> > According to the Letters, everything in Middle Earth > (including Elves and > Wizards) grows old over time and dies. I'd pull up a > cite but I don't > usually bring my copy to work. This is a pretty > natural outgrowth of > Tolkien's Catholicism (which is, of course, the > underpinning for the > entire enterprise). Disease I'm less sure about. Are you sure about that? From what I remember of _The Samrillion_ [sp], Elves do not die unless killed. The half elf/half humans of the same father as Elrond have extremely long life but eventually die, but 'purebred' elves leave middle earth on ships rather than thru their death. ===== "she had a walk that would make a bishop kick in a stain glass window" - Raymond Chandler From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 5 11:57:29 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <20041005183626.98640.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041005183626.98640.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, S SHafer wrote: @> Are you sure about that? From what I remember of _The @> Samrillion_ [sp], Elves do not die unless killed. The @> half elf/half humans of the same father as Elrond have @> extremely long life but eventually die, but 'purebred' @> elves leave middle earth on ships rather than thru @> their death. I'm pretty sure. Also, the half-elf thing isn't exactly right. All of them get to decide whether they'd rather be mortal or immortal; either they get to reincarnate with the elves forever or else go to whatever mysterious place humans end up when they die. (Arwen being an example of someone who picked the latter.) In this specific case, of course, like somebody else we know, Tolkien doesn't go into great detail about how genetic inheritance interacts with inheritance of the soul... From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Oct 5 11:58:59 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:58:59 -0700 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <23ec01c4ab0d$681270a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > According to the Letters, everything in Middle Earth > (including Elves and > Wizards) grows old over time and dies. I'd pull up a cite but > I don't usually bring my copy to work. This is a pretty > natural outgrowth of Tolkien's Catholicism (which is, of > course, the underpinning for the entire enterprise). Disease > I'm less sure about. > Becoming pretty tangential to Brust, but Tolkein's elves didn't physically age in the way that the other Free Peoples did. Rather, as the centuries flowed past they tended to grow weary in spirit, eventually to find mortal life (for lack of a better descriptor) a burden rather than a joy. Tolkein's elves and "gods" (Valar, Maya, et al...) were all about the strengh of their spirit. Creation and life were a drain on that spirit. The elves in Middle Earth were subject to this "spiritual aging" rather sooner than the various branches of the High Elves who had lived at one time or another in Valinor where the "spiritual batteries" of the Valar helped keep them "fresh". (Yes, I realize how fast and loose I'm playing with the mythology here.) With no examples of elves ever succuming to disease, it seems safe to assume that they never do. Short of physical destruction, an elf's lifespan is unlimited. However, the spiritual fount IS limited and eventually the elves succumb. Like Aragorn, they lay down to sleep and their spirit passes to the Halls of Mandos. Feanor's mother is an example of this happening early. Having passed more than the usual amount of spirit to Feanor in his birth, her own spirit never truly recovered and she chose to leave rather than to continue to inhabit the mortal realms or even the Undying Lands. As for elvish reincarnation, I can't recall any examples of that. My impression of the trip to the Halls of Mandos is that it's a one way trip. Beren and Luthien were the only exceptions and they were pretty exceptional indeed. The elves are kin to the Valar in spirit and we've seen that the Maya and the Valar can "re-corporate" given time and opportunity. It's not completely out of the question but I'd have to see a reference cited to believe it's ever happened. The dwarves believe that THEY can re-incarnate (or their heroes can, at least) but the dwarves believe a lot of strange things. ;-P I don't know that Tolkein ever said anything definitive on the subject. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 5 12:17:01 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:17:01 -0400 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <59e251ba04100511273cbcde57@mail.gmail.com> References: <59e251ba04100511273cbcde57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4162F32D.10804@earthlink.net> Charmian wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT), David Silberstein > wrote: > >>On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> >>>On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>>The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 7, page 73 on Aliera's soul. >>>>Sethra says "we have located it, with your help, as well as the >>>>help of ...well, some others." >>>> >>>>The Book of Taltos, Taltos Chapter 14, page 142 >>> >>>>Aliera says "Who tracked me down?" Morrolan answers. "Sethra and >>>>I, he said, watching her face. He glanced at me quickly, then >>>>said, "And there were others who helped, some time ago." >>> >>>>Who are the others? Why not mention their names? Why the quick >>>>glance at Vlad? >>> > > I have to wonder. At this point, does Morrolan know that Vlad is the > reincarnation of [spoiler?] (Newbie question. Is something revealed > early in the first published book considered a spoiler?) Perhaps > that's why he doesn't want to mention names. Since Aliera knew, and > with the revelation at the end of Orca, it is possible that Sethra > knew beforehand as well. I think based on comments that Sethra has made that she knows exactly who Vlad is and was. As for the Philosophy of Spoiler Space, it is a deep and varied field. No two opinions are the same. While I would say that it technically is a spoiler, I personally wouldn't think to protect it; however, some do. Also of note is the recent list member who, if I remember correctly, mentioned reading Issola before any of the other books, based on it being the most readily available of the Brust books (or something like; I apologize if I misremember). Technically, this person has not read Jhereg and others, and thus would be spoiled for the events therein. Ultimately, it's your call. I like to be vague about spoilery things, but that may also have to do with covering my ass in a discussion in case I get something wrong. *grin* > Also, doesn't Loiosh stop people from messing with Vlad's mind? (See Issola) I think he can notice or detect it (I remember Vlad asking Zerika how she could read his mind without her familiar catching her at it), but may not necessarily be able to prevent it. Also, the possible suspects for messing with his mind (Sethra, Verra, possibly Aliera and Morrolan, but unlikely) know about Loiosh and should be powerful enough to compensate. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 5 12:18:56 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:18:56 -0600 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: References: <200410011557.i91Fvjbd071871@realtime.exit.com> <59e251ba0410011314491b9725@mail.gmail.com> <4987.68.162.221.84.1096984930.squirrel@monger.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:30:55 -0400 (EDT), John Klein wrote: > According to the Letters, everything in Middle Earth (including Elves > and > Wizards) grows old over time and dies. I'd pull up a cite but I don't > usually bring my copy to work. This is a pretty natural outgrowth of > Tolkien's Catholicism (which is, of course, the underpinning for the > entire enterprise). Disease I'm less sure about. Except that it is religion which is the basis that despite appearances, humans have a huge advantage over those who appear immortal - and that is that humans go to heaven. That is a basis of Western mythology. Even Harry Potter knows this. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Oct 5 12:51:05 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:51:05 -0700 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <246901c4ab14$af896810$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I'm pretty sure. Also, the half-elf thing isn't exactly > right. All of them get to decide whether they'd rather be > mortal or immortal; That isn't quite how I understood things. The choice was forced once-only, when Aerindel and Gulwing landed on the shores of Valinor bearing the Silmaril. The Valar, being faced with the quandry of figuring out whether he should be allowed to leave alive or not, solved the problem by making him choose whether he would be counted as an elf or a man. The rest of the half-elven were given the same choice and that was what sundered Elrond from his brother Elros, as each chose a different allegiance. After that, there were only elves and men. Genetics aside, Elrond and his descendants were all elves, not half-elves. Arwen's choice to follow Luthien's path was, perhaps, one that any Elf could have made given sufficient incentive. Certainly, very few ever had that incentive once the Valar ruled that marrying a Man would result in the loss of your immortality and place in the Halls of Mandos. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 5 13:03:55 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 13:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Tommy Westphall and the tv multiverse In-Reply-To: <246901c4ab14$af896810$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <246901c4ab14$af896810$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Perhaps this discussion of the claimed proof that a gross of tv shows take place in the same fictional universe will be of interest to readers. http://www.xoverboard.com/blogarchive/week_2004_10_03.html#000967 http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/002615.html From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 5 13:05:24 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <23ec01c4ab0d$681270a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <23ec01c4ab0d$681270a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: @> Becoming pretty tangential to Brust, but Tolkein's elves didn't physically @> age in the way that the other Free Peoples did. Rather, as the centuries @> flowed past they tended to grow weary in spirit, eventually to find mortal @> life (for lack of a better descriptor) a burden rather than a joy. Tolkein's @> elves and "gods" (Valar, Maya, et al...) were all about the strengh of their @> spirit. Creation and life were a drain on that spirit. The elves in Middle @> Earth were subject to this "spiritual aging" rather sooner than the various @> branches of the High Elves who had lived at one time or another in Valinor @> where the "spiritual batteries" of the Valar helped keep them "fresh". (Yes, @> I realize how fast and loose I'm playing with the mythology here.) I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure there's an explicit reference in the Letters to physical aging over time for elves. (I am absolutely and entirely certain that there is such a reference when it comes to the Maiar embodied as wizards, and the idea that the elves would be /less/ vulnerable to that than the Istari are is absurd.) @> As for elvish reincarnation, I can't recall any examples of that. My @> impression of the trip to the Halls of Mandos is that it's a one way trip. @> Beren and Luthien were the only exceptions and they were pretty exceptional @> indeed. The elves are kin to the Valar in spirit and we've seen that the @> Maya and the Valar can "re-corporate" given time and opportunity. It's not @> completely out of the question but I'd have to see a reference cited to @> believe it's ever happened. Glorfindel. And the counterexample of Feanor; he's presented as an exception precisely /because/ he stays in the Halls instead of returning to life, which statement implies that the other elves habitually return to life. The Silmarilion is pretty explicit about this in a number of different places. In fact, it's presented as the major difference between the elves and the humans; the humans pass away and leave the world and never go to the Halls, whereas the elves are stuck with it until it ends. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Oct 5 13:29:51 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 13:29:51 -0700 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <248501c4ab1a$1a5c1c00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Glorfindel. And the counterexample of Feanor; he's presented > as an exception precisely /because/ he stays in the Halls > instead of returning to life, which statement implies that > the other elves habitually return to life. If you can provide a citation that supports this idea, I'd be interested in investigating it. It's not ringing any bells for me. Certainly, the history of the elves and particularly the Wars of the Silmarils would have proceeded rather differently if the spirits of the fallen had merely flown back to Valinor to rebuild their physical bodies. > the humans pass away and leave the > world and never go to the Halls, whereas the elves are stuck > with it until it ends. This is true as far as it goes, but it's true because the Halls of Mandos are within the confines of the world. (Inasmuch as any part of Valinor can be considered within the confines of the world.)Once your soul enters the Halls, it stays there until the end of the World or until Mandos decides to let you out. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 5 13:48:41 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <248501c4ab1a$1a5c1c00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <248501c4ab1a$1a5c1c00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: @> > Glorfindel. And the counterexample of Feanor; he's presented @> > as an exception precisely /because/ he stays in the Halls @> > instead of returning to life, which statement implies that @> > the other elves habitually return to life. @> @> If you can provide a citation that supports this idea, I'd be interested in @> investigating it. It's not ringing any bells for me. Certainly, the history @> of the elves and particularly the Wars of the Silmarils would have proceeded @> rather differently if the spirits of the fallen had merely flown back to @> Valinor to rebuild their physical bodies. I'm still at work, but luckily someone has done the digging for me already. http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/taleoftwo.asp @> > the humans pass away and leave the @> > world and never go to the Halls, whereas the elves are stuck @> > with it until it ends. @> @> This is true as far as it goes, but it's true because the Halls of Mandos @> are within the confines of the world. (Inasmuch as any part of Valinor can @> be considered within the confines of the world.)Once your soul enters the @> Halls, it stays there until the end of the World or until Mandos decides to @> let you out. Well, your part needs to go a bit farther too: Mandos will always let you out unless you've done something awful. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Oct 5 14:19:36 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:19:36 -0700 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24c501c4ab21$0d7be3b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> While I'm not terribly fond of relying on apocryphal data to support an argument, I'll concede the point. If I've got anything more to say after tracking down some of these essays being referred to, I'll keep it off-list since we've moved rather far away from Dragaera at this point. ;-) From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:55:47 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 22:55:47 +0000 Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) Message-ID: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > I think the Lords of Judgment had a discussion right after Issola > about what should be done about Vlad. Said discussion might still > be going on. Do they decide Vlad is a useful weapon after all his > training or is Vlad too dangerous? Do they decide to attempt to > destroy (spoiler for Issola removed) again? It's real hard for us to discuss this as we have no idea how they expect to use Vlad. I'm not even sure they have much of an idea - their powers and minds are sufficiently different from ours that they might have more trust in their abilities to make cryptic oracles than in anything detailed and solid. Maybe they have full trust in "Vlad will be essential for this goal - after he has the required tools and training". Which doesn't mean that "this goal" is what they think it is, nor if it would be desirable. (Think "defeat my enemy"). And certainly they can argue whether **spoiler** is an appropriate tool. Even gods can use self-interest to cloud the way thy look at things. ********** Also, they may think that they can alter his mind if they so desire. The Jenoine affected Morrollen, Aliera and Vlads perception despite great weapons and assorted familiars. Great weapons are linked to the soul, but are they linked to the mind? Also, the Lords of Judgment have another tool to use against Vlad; Kieron himself. But whether they would risk releasing him from the halls is another question. Jeff _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 5 17:06:30 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:06:30 -0400 Subject: Idle Speculation (?SPOILERS?) Message-ID: <09F89A35.2608B07B.00048EA6@aol.com> "jeff G." writes: > Also, the Lords of Judgment have another tool to use against > Vlad; Kieron himself. But whether they would risk releasing > him from the halls is another question. Or maybe it's the other way around: Vlad is now capable of keeping Kieron from getting out of control. --KG From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Oct 5 17:59:55 2004 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 19:59:55 -0500 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005195834.02f2d450@pop.east.cox.net> At 08:25 10/05/2004 -0500, Andrew Joubert wrote: >Vlad could be Mario reincarnated. I doubt Vlad is two persons reincarnated at the same time. Besides, Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense, I thought? >Which still leaves an issue with Vlad and Aliera's relationship vs Mario >and Aliera's relationship. >Speaking of reincarnation and all. > >Oh, and Mario can do whatever he wants. Just ask Vlad. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Oct 5 18:05:47 2004 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:05:47 -0500 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005200254.02f2ae50@pop.east.cox.net> At 16:06 10/05/2004 +0200, Martin Wohlert wrote: >>IIRC, that's not quite correct. Elvish immortality wasn't due >>specifically to reincarnation. They could reincarnate and return if they >>were killed--Glorfindel from THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING is an example of >>this--but if they didn't die by violence, they didn't die. Elves were >>not subject to natural aging or disease. > >Glorfindel in LOTR isn't the same Glorfindel as the one in the >Silmarillion. AFAIK there's no reincarnation at all in Middle Earth. Elves all went to the Uttermost West (or whatever it was called) eventually; some in the body, and some in the soul (there was a name for where they went if they had been killed, but I have forgotten it), to live there forever. Only Men left the bounds of creation on dying. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 5 18:13:27 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 21:13:27 -0400 Subject: Warriors, peasants, and mortality In-Reply-To: <23ec01c4ab0d$681270a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: #Becoming pretty tangential to Brust, but Tolkein's elves didn't physically Tolkn. #age in the way that the other Free Peoples did. Rather, as the centuries #flowed past they tended to grow weary in spirit, eventually to find mortal #life (for lack of a better descriptor) a burden rather than a joy. Tolkein's #elves and "gods" (Valar, Maya, et al...) were all about the strengh of their #spirit. Creation and life were a drain on that spirit. The elves in Middle #Earth were subject to this "spiritual aging" rather sooner than the various #branches of the High Elves who had lived at one time or another in Valinor #where the "spiritual batteries" of the Valar helped keep them "fresh". (Yes, #I realize how fast and loose I'm playing with the mythology here.) Interesting. I like this. IIRC, JRRT said, in response to a letter or Q, that they were not immortal but longeval (literally, 'long-lived'), in that they weren't immune to death but did not experience age as debilitating, as we and all other multicellular creatures do. -- Mark A. Mandel From asr at ufl.edu Wed Oct 6 05:24:32 2004 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 08:24:32 -0400 Subject: So who's that on the cover of Sethra? Message-ID: <200410061224.i96COWaA109802@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> I'm reading Sethra Lavode to my wife now, and we found we were both independantly wondering who the devil that chick is on the front. I could suspend belief for a wide variety of artists' liberty, but I can't buy that they'd let an Iceflame-less Sethra representation get out. So far we figure it's Tazendra. Is there something I'm missing? - Allen S. Rout From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 6 05:27:34 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 06:27:34 -0600 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005195834.02f2d450@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <000401c4ab9f$dc3ecef0$b07ba8c0@Dad133> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 08:25 10/05/2004 -0500, Andrew Joubert wrote: > >> Vlad could be Mario reincarnated. > > I doubt Vlad is two persons reincarnated at the same time. Why not? Are you saying someone can reincarnate only once? > Besides, Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense, I thought? He does. But all that means is that Mario never had a public funeral. He is a private individual. That said, I would be surprised if Vlad was Mario reincarnated. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Wed Oct 6 07:15:00 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 07:15:00 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. References: <000401c4ab9f$dc3ecef0$b07ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <00ba01c4abae$ddf5f700$a0313680@Soltan> Howard Brazee wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> At 08:25 10/05/2004 -0500, Andrew Joubert wrote: >> >>> Vlad could be Mario reincarnated. >> >> I doubt Vlad is two persons reincarnated at the same time. > > Why not? Are you saying someone can reincarnate only once? Indeed. The way it would work is that Mario was in fact D*livar reincarnated, then died (probably during the Disaster) and then "you became an Easterner, brother." >> Besides, Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense, I thought? > > He does. But all that means is that Mario never had a public funeral. > He is a private individual. > That said, I would be surprised if Vlad was Mario reincarnated. > Surprised, yes. But would it be Cool? Shawn From den at monger.net Wed Oct 6 07:29:20 2004 From: den at monger.net (den at monger.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 07:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <00ba01c4abae$ddf5f700$a0313680@Soltan> References: <000401c4ab9f$dc3ecef0$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <00ba01c4abae$ddf5f700$a0313680@Soltan> Message-ID: <1324.68.162.221.84.1097072960.squirrel@monger.net> >> He does. But all that means is that Mario never had a public funeral. >> He is a private individual. >> That said, I would be surprised if Vlad was Mario reincarnated. > Surprised, yes. But would it be Cool? You know, I don't think so. Vlad interaction with Mario has some Coolness potential. Since Vlad is already someone reincarned, having him be someone else reincarnated would likely be more Cheesy than Cool, unless there's some Really Cool underlying reason why Vlad is every kickass assassin of all time. -Dennis From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Oct 6 07:26:01 2004 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 14:26:01 +0000 Subject: Mario Message-ID: Mario is Mario. Steve's said he's no one else. He's also said he's someone we know. We know who Mario is. He's Mario. He's an assassin with some freakishly surprising luck/skill. He's intensely secretive and private. He's in love with Aliera, like every other adolescent or even youthful male Dragaeran is. The only difference is that Aliera has returned the attention. I'm fairly sure that Steve reads all these Mario emails with barely surpressed amusement, watching all of us scurry about our mental landscapes, inventing wonderfully clever (if only slightly flawed) explanations as to how Mario can be the legend that he is. Who is Sinn Fein? He's just a guy, really. Legendary, though. William Wallace? Just a guy. Pretty good with a sword and a speech though. See what I mean? The man makes the legend, I'm sure, with aforementioned luck/skill/aid of a certain Demon Goddess, perhaps, but it's really just a matter of him having something to do, and getting it done without dying too many times. But then, after the deed is done, and the body of the doer revivified a couple times, the act begins to change, with each passing tale. It is his *reputation* that Mario would and could get any contract successfully completed. He probably has access to all sorts of resources. But if you shine the Emperor, under the protection of the very manifestation of arcane power itself, well, guys like Boralinoi or other hard-to-get targets are just a jog in a park, right? It just depends on whether or not you believe the rumours. That being said, The Jhereg are probably fairly skeptical guys. Mario's probably had a few, or quite a few successful and extraordinary contracts. One of the common themes of those contracts is that there is a great deal of patience involved. Mario waits for *his* time. If you're patient enough, and you are guiding things a little bit, what you want will come about. So Mario could be nothing more than a guy with a knife, a bit of luck, skill and a crapload of patience. Which earns him a reputation as "Death walking". It would probably work for anyone else, too, provided you didn't die too many times, or permanently. He's also probably meticulous about covering his tracks. The Tortaalik contract was probably his most botched one yet, which can only really, given the fact that it is the EMPEROR, only improve his reputation. -You mean, he shined the emperor himself, and he says that was a *botched* attempt? Verra's tits, I wanna see this guy when he's on form... Anyway. That's my Mario theory. Perhaps a little mundane, but I rather think it's close to the truth. Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN? Calendar keeps you organized and takes the effort out of scheduling get-togethers. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Oct 6 07:44:22 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 07:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: So who's that on the cover of Sethra? In-Reply-To: <200410061224.i96COWaA109802@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <20041006144422.40487.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> --- asr at ufl.edu wrote: > > > I'm reading Sethra Lavode to my wife now, and we found we were both > independantly wondering who the devil that chick is on the front. > > I could suspend belief for a wide variety of artists' liberty, but I > can't buy > that they'd let an Iceflame-less Sethra representation get out. > > So far we figure it's Tazendra. > > Is there something I'm missing? I think you're missing that there's no "they" who care about things like that. As I understand it, no one can make the artist read the book, and as far as I can tell, no publisher is going to pay for a revised painting as long as the artist has come up with something that might help sell books. (In defiance of a proverb and my comprehension, cover art really does make a difference to some buyers, including many whose literary judgement I respect.) So don't expect covers to accurately reflect the book. In other words, that's Sethra Lavode, in some sense. Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 6 07:47:01 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:47:01 -0400 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: <1324.68.162.221.84.1097072960.squirrel@monger.net> References: <000401c4ab9f$dc3ecef0$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <00ba01c4abae$ddf5f700$a0313680@Soltan> <1324.68.162.221.84.1097072960.squirrel@monger.net> Message-ID: <41640565.6000308@earthlink.net> den at monger.net wrote: >>>He does. But all that means is that Mario never had a public funeral. >>>He is a private individual. > >>>That said, I would be surprised if Vlad was Mario reincarnated. > >>Surprised, yes. But would it be Cool? > > You know, I don't think so. Vlad interaction with Mario has some Coolness > potential. Since Vlad is already someone reincarned, having him be > someone else reincarnated would likely be more Cheesy than Cool, unless > there's some Really Cool underlying reason why Vlad is every kickass > assassin of all time. That, and Steve has more or less told us that Mario is alive at least during Jhereg. He may change his mind if he really wants to, of course, but that's what we know so far. I think there's more than one underlying reason for Vlad being a kickass assassin. For example, he has various people (I use the term loosely) looking out for him, helping him, training him, etc. (Loiosh, Kiera, Verra, Sethra, Morrolan, and even Aliera). He was successful as a Jhereg assassin because of his patience, attention to detail, and improvisational ability, not to mention a little help from the above-mentioned folks. He was successful as a Jhereg boss because he had earned respect as an assassin and enforcer, and also managed to inspire a lot of loyalty in most of his subordinates. Kragar comes to mind; as much as Kragar is a Jhereg, I'd be shocked to see him go after Vlad. I suppose he would (business is business), but it would surprise me. It's possible that being Dolivar reincarnated gives him some kind of Jhereg edge, as well, making him even more kickass, but it's doubtful. It seems to me that his past as Dolivar only really gives him an unreasoning fear of Kieron (but may also be based on Eastern superstition) and the mysterious aid of Sethra Lavode. Oh, and Paarfi is Mario. *grins, ducks, and runs* Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 6 07:55:59 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:55:59 -0400 Subject: Mario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4164077F.9050603@earthlink.net> J C wrote: > > Mario is Mario. Steve's said he's no one else. He's also said he's > someone we know. We know who Mario is. He's Mario. I completely agree with you (and have previous posts to prove it). So does Steve. But there is an inevitability to the Mario discussion making its appearance on the list. It's very cyclical. Kinda like the spoiler space discussion. Or the reply-to munging discussion. Or the listserv vs. Yahoo group vs. some other alternative discussion. And wait until the religion thread gets kick-started again; though that one isn't one of the cyclical threads, it certainly was epic... Help! We're stuck in a David Eddings-plotted mailing list, doomed to repeat history (and posts) until some cataclysmic event (a new book being published) can end the Cycle. Uh, I mean cycle. *grin* Jose, who probably should get sleep, as his posts appear to be getting decidedly silly. And now he's referring to himself in the third person. -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 6 15:08:28 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:08:28 -0700 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <4164077F.9050603@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02c001c4abf1$0757a930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Now that the Paarfiad is more or less complete, I'd be interested in seeing a new series of non-Vlad Dragaera stores featuring Kiera the Thief. It'd be a way to show another side of Dragaeran society and maybe some of the outsider cultures like the Serioli and even the Easterners while developing the back-story of one of the more interesting characters in Vlad's life. (For purposes of story-telling here, Brust would ignore the revelations of Orca or at most make vague allusions to them.) On the not-so-great idea side of this idea, I keep envisioning the stories as a kind of Michael Moorcock pastiche with Vlad playing Fafhrd to Kiera's Grey Mouser. :-P Try to imagine a Boris Vallejo portrait of Vlad poised for battle, bare-chested with Loiosh hissing on his shoulder (tail wrapped around his neck) while Kiera crouches at his feet in leather pants and an armless, low-cut tunic, ready to cut either a purse or a hamstring. Ha ha! Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Oct 6 15:15:58 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea Message-ID: <200410062215.i96MFwRM022564@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Scott Schultz wrote: > Now that the Paarfiad is more or less complete, I'd be interested in seeing > a new series of non-Vlad Dragaera stores featuring Kiera the Thief. It'd be > a way to show another side of Dragaeran society and maybe some of the > outsider cultures like the Serioli and even the Easterners while developing > the back-story of one of the more interesting characters in Vlad's life. > (For purposes of story-telling here, Brust would ignore the revelations of > Orca or at most make vague allusions to them.) It would be interesting, but I've always wanted to read a story (even a short story!) from Loiosh's viewpoint. Sure, there'd be a good deal of eating and flittering around and death and wise-arse comments, but we get that with the Vlad novels too, don't we? > Try to imagine a Boris Vallejo portrait of Vlad poised for > battle, bare-chested with Loiosh hissing on his shoulder (tail wrapped > around his neck) while Kiera crouches at his feet in leather pants and an > armless, low-cut tunic, ready to cut either a purse or a hamstring. Ha ha! Damn you!! I will never be able to look at a Vallejo portrait again without thinking of this. ;) That's funny--scary, but funny. Chris "I would rather go honestly to Hell, admitting that I leaped knowingly into error and folly, than enter into the sweetest Heaven men can dream of by whining that I had been pushed." - _Freedom and Necessity_ - Brust & Bull From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 6 16:06:02 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:06:02 -0700 Subject: With apologies to Fritz Leiber In-Reply-To: <200410062215.i96MFwRM022564@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <030001c4abf9$11fbfd70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Apologies for mis-attributing Fafhrd and The Grey Mouser to Moorcock instead of Fritz Leiber, their true author. After thirty-some years, those old-time fantasy writers tend to blur into one another. ;-P From sirchuck at macomb.com Wed Oct 6 16:15:31 2004 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:15:31 -0500 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <02c001c4abf1$0757a930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <02c001c4abf1$0757a930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <9E8E0458-17ED-11D9-AF4F-000D93C6F8E8@macomb.com> On Oct 6, 2004, at 5:08 PM, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Now that the Paarfiad is more or less complete, I'd be interested in > seeing > a new series of non-Vlad Dragaera stores featuring Kiera the Thief. > On the not-so-great idea side of this idea, I keep envisioning the > stories > as a kind of Michael Moorcock pastiche with Vlad playing Fafhrd to > Kiera's > Grey Mouser. Out of curiosity, how many of the Vlad books have you read? From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 6 16:45:56 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 16:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea Message-ID: <14528692.1097106356995.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: Scott Schultz Sent: Oct 6, 2004 3:08 PM To: 'Dragaera' Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea > On the not-so-great idea side of this idea, I keep envisioning the stories > as a kind of Michael Moorcock pastiche with Vlad playing Fafhrd to Kiera's > Grey Mouser. :-P Try to imagine a Boris Vallejo portrait of Vlad poised for > battle, bare-chested with Loiosh hissing on his shoulder (tail wrapped > around his neck) while Kiera crouches at his feet in leather pants and an > armless, low-cut tunic, ready to cut either a purse or a hamstring. Ha ha! With our luck, Vlad would have no facial hair, his hair would be red, and Loiosh would have four legs. Add to that a Kiera that would be shorter than the suddenly tall, muscular Vlad and it might just be a disaster. Starring Lou Diamond Phillips as Piro, John Travolta as Morrolan, and an actress to be named later as Sethra. Jose -- Jose Marquez resume at hackwater.com http://www.hackwater.com.nyud.net:8090 From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 6 15:18:28 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:18:28 -0400 Subject: So who's that on the cover of Sethra? In-Reply-To: <20041006144422.40487.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: #I think you're missing that there's no "they" who care about things #like that. As I understand it, no one can make the artist read #the book, and as far as I can tell, no publisher is going to pay #for a revised painting as long as the artist has come up with #something that might help sell books. (In defiance of a proverb #and my comprehension, cover art really does make a difference to #some buyers, including many whose literary judgement I respect.) #So don't expect covers to accurately reflect the book. There's a bimbo on the cover of my book Maya Bohnhoff (to the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know It, Clap Your Hands") There's a bimbo on the cover of my book. There's a bimbo on the cover of my book. She is blond and she is sexy, She is nowhere in the text, she Is the bimbo on the cover of my book! [more but I don't know it] -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From warbi at warbi.net Wed Oct 6 17:12:54 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:12:54 -0700 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <14528692.1097106356995.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: With our luck, Vlad would have no facial hair, his hair would be red, and Loiosh would have four legs. Add to that a Kiera that would be shorter than the suddenly tall, muscular Vlad and it might just be a disaster. Starring Lou Diamond Phillips as Piro, John Travolta as Morrolan, and an actress to be named later as Sethra. Jose John Travolta as Morrolan- ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry! warbi From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Oct 6 18:17:01 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 20:17:01 -0500 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <02c001c4abf1$0757a930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> (Scott Schultz's message of "Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:08:28 -0700") References: <02c001c4abf1$0757a930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" writes: > On the not-so-great idea side of this idea, I keep envisioning the stories > as a kind of Michael Moorcock pastiche with Vlad playing Fafhrd to Kiera's > Grey Mouser. :-P Try to imagine a Boris Vallejo portrait of Vlad poised for > battle, bare-chested with Loiosh hissing on his shoulder (tail wrapped > around his neck) while Kiera crouches at his feet in leather pants and an > armless, low-cut tunic, ready to cut either a purse or a hamstring. Ha ha! Minor nit -- that'd be Fritz Leiber, not Michael Moorcock. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 6 17:43:22 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:43:22 -0400 Subject: what, me spamming? Message-ID: How peculiar. Why would my quote of one verse of Maya Bohnhoff's "Bimbo on the Cover of the Book" be considered spam? Here's the message as I received it, with headers. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-Path: Received: from mas-bloomfield.www.med-act-svcs.com (mas-bloomfield.masonline.net [208.44.183.11]) by TheWorld.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i96Nx1pt008369 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:59:07 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by mas-bloomfield.www.med-act-svcs.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:58:55 -0400 thread-index: AcSsAHBkvb176m0ZQuipUHAavpKTow== Thread-Topic: Symantec AVF detected that you sent a Spam message From: To: Subject: Symantec AVF detected that you sent a Spam message Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:58:55 -0400 Message-ID: <12ef01c4ac00$70645ea0$0a1ea8c0 at www.medactsvcs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2004 23:58:55.0944 (UTC) FILETIME=[706DD480:01C4AC00] Subject of the message: Re: So who's that on the cover of Sethra? Recipient of the message: Brian Keegan From davids at Kithrup.COM Wed Oct 6 19:29:11 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what, me spamming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote: >How peculiar. Why would my quote of one verse of Maya Bohnhoff's >"Bimbo on the Cover of the Book" be considered spam? > I strongly suspect that the antispam engine can be tuned to filter on the mere presence of certain keywords. Certainly, my procmailrc does, although I do whitelist testing before bad keyword testing. So I think there mere presence of the words "blond", "sexy", and "bimbo" set off all of its alarms. While I am sure that you would never use those words to market what might be called certain services, or images of certain persons, or images of certain persons performing certain services, spammers are far less scrupulous. If this e-mail that I send now gets bounced in the exact same manner, I nearly think that we shall have discovered that those keywords are indeed the problem. If that is the case, you might want to make a note to use some of the same tricks that spammers use in these situations, that is, to mangle the words so that they no longer match what the spam filter searches for; eg: "bl*nd", "sehxii", and "b1mb*". Alas that such measures are called for. Truly, the spammers are purest evil. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Oct 6 20:49:30 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 23:49:30 EDT Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <12a.4d3032e8.2e9616ca@aol.com> Jot Powers wrote Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:19:45 -0700 >Because we know Mario is alive in some form that isn't Vlad. >I'm too lazy to dig through the archives, but it has been stated >(as canonically as anything we maul after Steven says it) that >Vlad comes in on Aliera just after Mario has left.... http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:979:200207:ghghdgfbmiachhl lcmpp From: Steven Brust wrote Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:10:21 -0700 >It is true that, in Jar-head, there is a scene where Aliera appears looking >rather happy. In that scene, we have just missed seeing Mario. Hi, The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg Chapter 9, page 77 Jhereg Ace Edition/April 1983 Chapter 9 page 106 "Aliera was sitting by the back of the bed, staring off into space. I noted that, curled up as she was, she could still draw Pathfinder." Staring off into space means looking rather happy? Sounds like Aliera, I guess. And Vlad was not in any condition to notice if someone was happy or not. Or is there another scene "where Aliera appears looking rather happy"? Cool! Mario and Aliera have gotten back together. She probably used Pathfinder to locate him. David Silberstein wrote on Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) on who might be the others who helped track down Aliera's soul. >The "others" were Aliera's mother and daughter, Verra and Devera. Yes, I could see that working. I can also see Verra letting Sethra search in vain for 200 years before telling her where Aliera's soul was. I was thinking that Sethra came across Mario 200 years before Taltos and that made her realize that Aliera's soul survived too. The Book of Taltos, Taltos last page of chapter 3: "We have been searching for it for more than two hundred years." Lots of Steven Burst postings to read. Open any Steven Burst posting on dragaera.info/mailinglists click on <-author-> and it shows you all that <-author-> has posted. Here are some related to Mario. http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/1015 From: Steven Brust wrote Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:31:14 -0700 No, in fact I said we *haven't* met Mario in the Vlad books. http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:981:200207:ghghdgfbmiachhl lcmpp At 05:41 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >Have we met Mario face-to-face in the Vlad books (even if >disguised as someone else)? From: Steven Brust wrote on Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:53:53 -0700 >No. Bye. Linda G. From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Oct 7 07:50:12 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:50:12 -0700 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <9E8E0458-17ED-11D9-AF4F-000D93C6F8E8@macomb.com> Message-ID: <0f8b01c4ac7c$fb92ca80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Out of curiosity, how many of the Vlad books have you read? If you're implying that the Taltos Cycle is already rather Lankhmarian, I'd have to disagree. Conan would be at home in Lankhmar but I don't think Vlad would feel particularly comfortable there. Dragaerans take a much more "matter of fact" approach to both magic and the gods than the folks of Lankhmar would. If you're implying that I don't know enough about Vlad if I'm satirically picturing him as Fafhrd, I can only quote the wisdom of the inimitable Foghorn Leghorn - "Ah say, it's a JOKE son!" Just to clear things up, I've read the entire Vladiad and Paarfiad multiple times, excepting _Sethra Lavode_. Being a cheap bastard, I don't normally buy hardbacks unless it's something like _The Dark Tower_ that I know will be read by most everyone in the family. Call me a philistine. ;-) From frank at exit.com Thu Oct 7 07:59:21 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <0f8b01c4ac7c$fb92ca80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <200410071459.i97ExLiP076210@realtime.exit.com> Scott Schultz wrote: > Call me a philistine. You're a philistine. HTH. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Thu Oct 7 06:37:23 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:37:23 -0400 Subject: what, me spamming? Message-ID: Sex is a common word to block in spam. So sexy would do it to. -----Original Message----- From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at Kithrup.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:29 PM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: what, me spamming? On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote: >How peculiar. Why would my quote of one verse of Maya Bohnhoff's >"Bimbo on the Cover of the Book" be considered spam? > I strongly suspect that the antispam engine can be tuned to filter on the mere presence of certain keywords. Certainly, my procmailrc does, although I do whitelist testing before bad keyword testing. So I think there mere presence of the words "blond", "sexy", and "bimbo" set off all of its alarms. While I am sure that you would never use those words to market what might be called certain services, or images of certain persons, or images of certain persons performing certain services, spammers are far less scrupulous. If this e-mail that I send now gets bounced in the exact same manner, I nearly think that we shall have discovered that those keywords are indeed the problem. If that is the case, you might want to make a note to use some of the same tricks that spammers use in these situations, that is, to mangle the words so that they no longer match what the spam filter searches for; eg: "bl*nd", "sehxii", and "b1mb*". Alas that such measures are called for. Truly, the spammers are purest evil. From davids at Kithrup.COM Thu Oct 7 08:39:08 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what, me spamming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Brian Keegan wrote: > >Sex is a common word to block in spam. So sexy would do it to. > Yet my e-mail *contained* the word "sexy", as well as "blond" and "bimbo" and yet did not get bounced. Hmm. There must have been something else. Looking at Mark's original e-mail, I note that he had a weblink at the bottom to his filk page. Maybe that was the deciding factor? If an e-mail contains certain words *and* a weblink, then it crosses the programs threshold for being spam? Alternatively, maybe it's the *count* of certain words - once might be forgivable, but "bimbo" occuring four times (five in this e-mail) is considered spam? Well, allow me to experiment a bit. Here is the text of the song again, with no weblink. Let's see if this e-mail gets bounced or not. ----------------------- >There's a bimbo on the cover of my book >Maya Bohnhoff >(to the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know It, Clap Your >Hands") >There's a bimbo on the cover of my book. >There's a bimbo on the cover of my book. >She is blond and she is sexy, >She is nowhere in the text, she >Is the bimbo on the cover of my book! > [more but I don't know it] From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Oct 7 09:57:51 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea Message-ID: <200410071657.i97GvpRM000497@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Frank Mayhar wrote: > Scott Schultz wrote: > > Call me a philistine. > > You're a philistine. Damn, beat me to it. I match Frank's philistine comment, and raise it by a ! Chris "There's no such thing as a conservative hero." ~ _Lamb_ Christopher Moore From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Oct 7 10:01:34 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what, me spamming? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, my recent post containing a line or two of text and a couple of URLs provoked a no-spam response as well. From ike at manor.org Thu Oct 7 12:19:36 2004 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Geek/Tangent, Spell Checking Re: what, me spamming? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > If that is the case, you might want to make a note to use some of > the same tricks that spammers use in these situations, that is, to > mangle the words so that they no longer match what the spam filter > searches for; eg: "bl*nd", "sehxii", and "b1mb*". Apologies if the attribution is incorrectly munged... Something I've always wondered, but not been clueful enough to either implement or gainsay myself, is why someone doesn't run an email through a spell check as a spam test? --Brother Ike From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Oct 7 12:41:26 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:41:26 EDT Subject: Geek/Tangent, Spell Checking Re: what, me spamming? Message-ID: <1dd.2dbdf2f6.2e96f5e6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/07/2004 3:21:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, ike at manor.org writes: why someone doesn't run an email through a spell check as a spam test? --Brother Ike Unusual words would cause many legit e-mails to be canned. In my own field there are many words that are not included in a spell checker that would trip this. Ie: Ophthalmoscopy, PERRLA, retinopathy, tonometry ect.... John D. Barbato, OD From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Thu Oct 7 14:50:46 2004 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:50:46 -0400 Subject: Geek/Tangent, Spell Checking Re: what, me spamming? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4165BA36.2010404@cinci.rr.com> Ike Porter wrote: > >Apologies if the attribution is incorrectly munged... > >Something I've always wondered, but not been clueful enough to either >implement or gainsay myself, is why someone doesn't run an email through a >spell check as a spam test? > >--Brother Ike > > > > And don't forget that many people on the internet have truly atrocious spelling, even if we don't mention (and we probably shouldn't!) all the highly idiomatic and rapidly evolving slang peculiar to the medium. I doubt things like 'haxx0rz,' 'pr0n,' or other such grave offenses against the Queen's Own English are in your average spellchecker. Noah From sirchuck at macomb.com Thu Oct 7 15:34:49 2004 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:34:49 -0500 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <0f8b01c4ac7c$fb92ca80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0f8b01c4ac7c$fb92ca80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <19AA6CEE-18B1-11D9-86F2-000D93C6F8E8@macomb.com> I wasn't trying to imply anything -- I just wanted to make sure you'd read Orca without giving away any spoilers to those few people on the list who hadn't yet. On Oct 7, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> Out of curiosity, how many of the Vlad books have you read? > > If you're implying that the Taltos Cycle is already rather > Lankhmarian, I'd > have to disagree. Conan would be at home in Lankhmar but I don't think > Vlad > would feel particularly comfortable there. Dragaerans take a much more > "matter of fact" approach to both magic and the gods than the folks of > Lankhmar would. > > If you're implying that I don't know enough about Vlad if I'm > satirically > picturing him as Fafhrd, I can only quote the wisdom of the inimitable > Foghorn Leghorn - "Ah say, it's a JOKE son!" > > Just to clear things up, I've read the entire Vladiad and Paarfiad > multiple > times, excepting _Sethra Lavode_. Being a cheap bastard, I don't > normally > buy hardbacks unless it's something like _The Dark Tower_ that I know > will > be read by most everyone in the family. Call me a philistine. ;-) > > > > From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Oct 7 15:59:25 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:59:25 -0700 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <19AA6CEE-18B1-11D9-86F2-000D93C6F8E8@macomb.com> Message-ID: <051801c4acc1$546a1340$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > From: John Mietus [mailto:sirchuck at macomb.com] > I wasn't trying to imply anything -- I just wanted to make sure you'd > read Orca without giving away any spoilers to those few people on the > list who hadn't yet. > Ah, yes. I'd mentioned that in the opening paragraph as something to basically ignore. Kiera stands on her own, so any stories about her or told >from her point of view would ignore _Orca_ or at most make oblique references to it. In fact, I'd imagine a series of Kiera stories to be set in the time period between _Viscount_ and _Taltos_ such that Vlad would either not exist (being unborn at the time) or he'd be a youngster getting his first taste of the "business" side of the House with Kiera as occasional mentor. From sirchuck at macomb.com Thu Oct 7 16:02:53 2004 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:02:53 -0500 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <051801c4acc1$546a1340$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <051801c4acc1$546a1340$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <05321B56-18B5-11D9-86F2-000D93C6F8E8@macomb.com> Gotcha -- I must've overlooked that when I read the message. Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding. On Oct 7, 2004, at 5:59 PM, Scott Schultz wrote: >> From: John Mietus [mailto:sirchuck at macomb.com] >> I wasn't trying to imply anything -- I just wanted to make sure you'd >> read Orca without giving away any spoilers to those few people on the >> list who hadn't yet. >> > > Ah, yes. I'd mentioned that in the opening paragraph as something to > basically ignore. Kiera stands on her own, so any stories about her or > told > from her point of view would ignore _Orca_ or at most make oblique > references to it. In fact, I'd imagine a series of Kiera stories to be > set > in the time period between _Viscount_ and _Taltos_ such that Vlad would > either not exist (being unborn at the time) or he'd be a youngster > getting > his first taste of the "business" side of the House with Kiera as > occasional > mentor. > > > From davids at Kithrup.COM Thu Oct 7 16:11:55 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <051801c4acc1$546a1340$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: >> From: John Mietus >> I wasn't trying to imply anything -- I just wanted to make sure >> you'd read Orca without giving away any spoilers to those few >> people on the list who hadn't yet. > >Ah, yes. I'd mentioned that in the opening paragraph as something >to basically ignore. Kiera stands on her own, so any stories about >her or told from her point of view would ignore _Orca_ or at most >make oblique references to it. It would be interesting if the stories had odd gaps in time, perhaps for the same (probable) reason that /Orca/ did. After all, there are other things she needs to take care of (to put it as obliquely as possible). > In fact, I'd imagine a series of Kiera stories to be set in the >time period between _Viscount_ and _Taltos_ such that Vlad would >either not exist (being unborn at the time) or he'd be a youngster >getting his first taste of the "business" side of the House with >Kiera as occasional mentor. > I think that this would be a Cool thing to do. We might also see her stories tie into the Vladiad in other ways, like the thing in /Jhereg/, which might have been something she stole ten years before the events of /Jhereg/. Hmm. What would we call the series? The Kieraiad? From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Oct 7 16:14:14 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:14:14 -0700 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <05321B56-18B5-11D9-86F2-000D93C6F8E8@macomb.com> Message-ID: <051f01c4acc3$66b0cec0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Gotcha -- I must've overlooked that when I read the message. Sorry > 'bout the misunderstanding. > No worries. I just figured you were saying that Vlad would make a silly Fafhrd, when that was sort of the point. *heh* Though I WOULD like to see that Vallejo print. I wonder how much it would cost to commission one? :-P From sirchuck at macomb.com Thu Oct 7 16:15:34 2004 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:15:34 -0500 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I actually like the idea of a Moorecockian/Leiberesque series based on the exploits of Keira the Thief. Then again, I'd like to see a "Count of Monte Cristo"-esque story by Paarfi about Vlad... On Oct 7, 2004, at 6:11 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: >> In fact, I'd imagine a series of Kiera stories to be set in the >> time period between _Viscount_ and _Taltos_ such that Vlad would >> either not exist (being unborn at the time) or he'd be a youngster >> getting his first taste of the "business" side of the House with >> Kiera as occasional mentor. >> > > I think that this would be a Cool thing to do. > > We might also see her stories tie into the Vladiad in other ways, > like the thing in /Jhereg/, which might have been something she > stole ten years before the events of /Jhereg/. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Oct 7 16:46:40 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > Hmm. What would we call the series? The Kieraiad? "Vladiad" was based on "Iliad" (by way of "Aeneid"), and "Paarfiad" by extension. "Pirodyssey" seems not have caught on - but ideally the various sections of the Texts ought to have names corresponding to epic poems. If there are any epic poems (or perhaps novels) about female protagonists, that would be the place to look. From abcmm at att.net Fri Oct 8 06:10:45 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:10:45 +0000 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea Message-ID: <100820041310.2717.416691D500034A6200000A9D216028074103030C0D0E@att.net> -------------- Original message from Chris Olson - SunPS : -------------- > Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Call me a philistine. > > > > You're a philistine. > > Damn, beat me to it. > > I match Frank's philistine comment, and raise > it by a ! > > > Chris > I Call your ! and Raise with a ;-) Burn From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 8 07:32:31 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 10:32:31 -0400 Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4166A4FF.5040303@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > > >>Hmm. What would we call the series? The Kieraiad? > > > "Vladiad" was based on "Iliad" (by way of "Aeneid"), and "Paarfiad" by > extension. "Pirodyssey" seems not have caught on - but ideally the > various sections of the Texts ought to have names corresponding to epic > poems. If there are any epic poems (or perhaps novels) about female > protagonists, that would be the place to look. I occasionally use Pirodyssey in my head; I haven't, until now, had any reason to use it in print. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From frank at exit.com Fri Oct 8 08:51:05 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A good idea and a not so good idea In-Reply-To: <100820041310.2717.416691D500034A6200000A9D216028074103030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: <200410081551.i98Fp5Cb010711@realtime.exit.com> abcmm at att.net wrote: > I Call your ! and Raise with a ;-) "Deadpan." Learn it. Use it. Be it. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From TimN at rcn.com Fri Oct 8 09:38:19 2004 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:38:19 -0400 Subject: what, me spamming? References: Message-ID: <002501c4ad58$1e0cd020$d916fea9@ananda> I would *adore* seeing a Vlad novel in which he is contracted to murder a "professional" spammer. - T ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Silberstein" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:29 PM Subject: Re: what, me spamming? > On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > >How peculiar. Why would my quote of one verse of Maya Bohnhoff's > >"Bimbo on the Cover of the Book" be considered spam? > > > > I strongly suspect that the antispam engine can be tuned to filter > on the mere presence of certain keywords. Certainly, my > procmailrc does, although I do whitelist testing before bad keyword > testing. > > So I think there mere presence of the words "blond", "sexy", and > "bimbo" set off all of its alarms. While I am sure that you would > never use those words to market what might be called certain > services, or images of certain persons, or images of certain > persons performing certain services, spammers are far less > scrupulous. > > If this e-mail that I send now gets bounced in the exact same > manner, I nearly think that we shall have discovered that those > keywords are indeed the problem. > > If that is the case, you might want to make a note to use some of > the same tricks that spammers use in these situations, that is, to > mangle the words so that they no longer match what the spam filter > searches for; eg: "bl*nd", "sehxii", and "b1mb*". > > Alas that such measures are called for. Truly, the spammers are > purest evil. > From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 11:53:52 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:53:52 +0000 Subject: So who's that on the cover of Sethra? Message-ID: --- asr at ufl.edu wrote: > > > I'm reading Sethra Lavode to my wife now, and we found we were both > independantly wondering who the devil that chick is on the front. > > I could suspend belief for a wide variety of artists' liberty, but I > can't buy > that they'd let an Iceflame-less Sethra representation get out. > > So far we figure it's Tazendra. > > Is there something I'm missing? I think you're missing that there's no "they" who care about things like that. As I understand it, no one can make the artist read the book, and as far as I can tell, no publisher is going to pay for a revised painting as long as the artist has come up with something that might help sell books. (In defiance of a proverb and my comprehension, cover art really does make a difference to some buyers, including many whose literary judgement I respect.) So don't expect covers to accurately reflect the book. In other words, that's Sethra Lavode, in some sense. Jerry Friedman I always take the cover off any hardback book I am reading anyway, the art is usually atrocious, and has little to do with the story. I can't see Sethra tacking the time to pose for a painting anyway, vanity doesn't seem to be in her character. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 8 12:01:03 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: So who's that on the cover of Sethra? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, jeff G. wrote: > I can't see Sethra tacking the time to pose for a painting anyway, > vanity doesn't seem to be in her character. Good point, but perhaps the artist painted from a psiprint (whatever that is)? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 12:10:56 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:10:56 -0700 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. References: <000401c4ab9f$dc3ecef0$b07ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:27 AM Subject: RE: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > At 08:25 10/05/2004 -0500, Andrew Joubert wrote: > > > >> Vlad could be Mario reincarnated. > > > > I doubt Vlad is two persons reincarnated at the same time. > > Why not? Are you saying someone can reincarnate only once? > > > Besides, Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense, I thought? > > He does. But all that means is that Mario never had a public funeral. > He is a private individual. > > That said, I would be surprised if Vlad was Mario reincarnated. > > > > > Me too, as the Demon would have hired Mario over Vlad, but Mario wouldn't accept time constraints. Implying that Mario is still around. Jeff G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 12:13:51 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:13:51 -0700 Subject: Mario References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "J C" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:26 AM Subject: Mario > > > > -You mean, he shined the emperor himself, and he says that was a *botched* > attempt? Verra's tits, I wanna see this guy when he's on form... > > > Jon > You just have to wonder at the chain of events that lead to "Verra's tits" becoming an oath. Jeff From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Oct 8 14:42:32 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:42:32 -0500 Subject: OK, then . . . Message-ID: <416709C8.2030206@comcast.net> Mario is still alive. Mario is not pretending to be anyone else. We have seen Mario. I think it's time for a real good game of "Where's Mario?". Instead of finding a tiny figure in a welter of tiny figures, we must look for some unnamed, briefly appearing Jhereg who is Mario, hiding in plain sight. It's a challenge, guys! (This'll *really* give Steve something to laugh at . . .) Mia From davids at Kithrup.COM Fri Oct 8 16:43:57 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OK, then . . . In-Reply-To: <416709C8.2030206@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Mia McDavid wrote: > >Mario is still alive. check >Mario is not pretending to be anyone else. check >We have seen Mario. Wait, what? Not according to this guy: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/981 ] From: Steven Brust ] Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:53:53 -0700 ] At 05:41 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: ] >Have we met Mario face-to-face in the Vlad books (even if ] >disguised as someone else)? ] No. (*fx, chorus*: "But what does *he* know?") >I think it's time for a real good game of "Where's Mario?". >Instead of finding a tiny figure in a welter of tiny figures, we >must look for some unnamed, briefly appearing Jhereg who is Mario, >hiding in plain sight. It's a challenge, guys! Obviously, Mario is someone we *haven't* seen. So Mario must have been the guy disguised as a minor noble of the House of the Orca in /Jhereg/, who Vlad didn't even notice, and therefore never mentioned. And like that. >(This'll *really* give Steve something to laugh at . . .) > Well, this is true. From davids at Kithrup.COM Fri Oct 8 17:00:32 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what, me spamming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Philip Hart wrote: >FWIW, my recent post containing a line or two of text and a couple >of URLs provoked a no-spam response as well. > Interesting. My e-mail with the full text of the filk that Mark posted appears not to have bounced. Looking at your post, I note it contained the word "gross" in the numerical sense, but it might also be a keyword the the spam filter checks for, *in addition* to whether the mail contains URLs or not. Hmm. Experimenting a bit more: You will most certainly *not* find a sexy, blond bimbo, or even anything particularly gross, if you follow this here link: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/979 Or even this one: http://www.engadget.com/entry/1499629174117153/ From antuhej at hotmail.com Sat Oct 9 15:09:03 2004 From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:09:03 +0200 Subject: OK, then . . . References: Message-ID: From: "David Silberstein" > Obviously, Mario is someone we *haven't* seen. So Mario must have > been the guy disguised as a minor noble of the House of the Orca in > /Jhereg/, who Vlad didn't even notice, and therefore never > mentioned. And like that. Check out the space between pages 153 and 154 in Issola, there might be something we've all missed. Now, if anyone has got a good cure for minor cuts to the fingertips, I'd be REAL happy. ;-) /Henrik From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Oct 9 15:27:27 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 15:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OK, then . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Henrik Jonsson wrote: > Now, if anyone has got a good cure for minor cuts to the fingertips, > I'd be REAL happy. ;-) Pressure and cold are recommended, and a mild sedative for the pain - suggest you put some ice and whiskey in a tumbler and hold it carefully. From antuhej at hotmail.com Sat Oct 9 16:01:58 2004 From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:01:58 +0200 Subject: OK, then . . . References: Message-ID: From: "Philip Hart" > Pressure and cold are recommended, and a mild sedative for the pain - > suggest you put some ice and whiskey in a tumbler and hold it carefully. Genius. However, I don't soil my whisky with ice, not even for medical purposes, but the general idea is pure perfection. I drink my whisky at room temperature while ignoring the pain. We call this the "manly" way, although my wife keeps substituting the adverb(*) "manly" with "stupid"... .. Women... ;-) (*: I always thought that English adverbs were identified with the "-ly" suffix, but "stupid" doesn't end with "-ly"... Then again "way" isn't a verb, so I guess "manly way" is a grammatical error... Bah, keep your stoopid English to yourselves, I can't make heads or tails of it, anyhow. ;-) From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Oct 9 21:06:47 2004 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 21:06:47 -0700 Subject: OK, then . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1adhm0tfqh7jf19fcdgi30hrr8cjmfd5t1@4ax.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 00:09:03 +0200, you wrote: >Now, if anyone has got a good cure for minor cuts to the fingertips, >I'd be REAL happy. ;-) Superglue. Seals it up nicely. Just ensure you've cleaned it out thoroughly first. From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 10:12:01 2004 From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: steve's weblog: _Kushiel's Dart_ Message-ID: <20041010171201.36300.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> This comment appeared on the most recent entry in the weblog: "I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since Dumas." What surprised and delighted me was that I too have just finished _Kushiel's Dart_ and found it a rather good read (although it was a little slow in the beginning). I won't try to describe it here, since I'm terrible at describing books. I'd only end up mangling it in the process. I do agree with Mr. Brust that you should read it, if you haven't already. I also found it interesting, while googling Ms. Carey's publications, that one of her two forthcoming books will be titled _Godslayer_. Someone mentioned that the title refers to a weapon, and I immediately thought of Vlad. ... and that is all. :) --Yihan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Oct 10 14:10:19 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:10:19 -0400 Subject: steve's weblog: _Kushiel's Dart_ In-Reply-To: <20041010171201.36300.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041010171201.36300.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2004, at 1:12 PM, Y Y wrote: > This comment appeared on the most recent entry in the weblog: > > "I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's > the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has > excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural > and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in > itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot > bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace > intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since > Dumas." > > What surprised and delighted me was that I too have just finished > _Kushiel's Dart_ and found it a rather good read (although it was a > little slow in the beginning). I won't try to describe it here, since > I'm terrible at describing books. I'd only end up mangling it in the > process. I do agree with Mr. Brust that you should read it, if you > haven't already. > > I also found it interesting, while googling Ms. Carey's publications, > that one of her two forthcoming books will be titled _Godslayer_. > Someone mentioned that the title refers to a weapon, and I immediately > thought of Vlad. > > ... and that is all. :) > > --Yihan I read that entry as well and immediately went out and bought it. II had never read it and it isn't something I would I bought normally but it seems okay so far..I just started and its going slow. From worldserpent at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 19:58:59 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:58:59 -1000 Subject: steve's weblog: _Kushiel's Dart_ In-Reply-To: References: <20041010171201.36300.qmail@web54704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59e251ba041010195852c70263@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:10:19 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2004, at 1:12 PM, Y Y wrote: > > > This comment appeared on the most recent entry in the weblog: > > > > "I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's > > the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has > > excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural > > and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in > > itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot > > bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace > > intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since > > Dumas." > > > > What surprised and delighted me was that I too have just finished > > _Kushiel's Dart_ and found it a rather good read (although it was a > > little slow in the beginning). I won't try to describe it here, since > > I'm terrible at describing books. I'd only end up mangling it in the > > process. I do agree with Mr. Brust that you should read it, if you > > haven't already. > > I've read all three of the Kushiel's Legacy books. I also second the recommendation, although I found the end of the trilogy disappointing for several reasons. It's definitely in a sort of "historical romance" mood, with a lot of pastiching of various cultures and references. Charmian From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 10 20:05:56 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:05:56 -0600 Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c4af3f$3a9dd840$657ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff G. wrote: > Me too, as the Demon would have hired Mario over Vlad, but Mario > wouldn't accept time constraints. Implying that Mario is still around. > > Jeff G. So he claims. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 10 20:06:19 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:06:19 EDT Subject: A Vlad reference in an unexpected place. Message-ID: <1a2.2a57102c.2e9b52ab@aol.com> In response to : On Sun, Oct 03, 2004 at 03:52:32PM -0400, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > And maybe only Steven Brust knows where Dzur will fit exactly into > the chronological order. Jot Powers wrote on Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:53:09 -0700 >We don't let that stop us from speculating. >If I were going to lay money I'd guess it happens before _Orca_ and >after _Phoenix_. >I believe we'll find out here how Vlad came to lose a finger. His >different accounts make the most sense if he was facing a Dzurlord. >(Weapons and sorcery are both cited. Text refs left as an exercise >to the reader :) Hi, Might be. As long as we are speculating. How about before Jhereg? Jhereg paperback page 62. The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg page 46: "The Dzur hero, coming along to Dzur mountain, sees Sethra Lavode stand up before him, Iceflame alive in her hand." Let's see, if Dzur is anything like Dragon, it will be before Jhereg, after Yendi, before Yendi, after Dragon, before Dragon, in the middle of Dragon, in the middle of Taltos, before Taltos and after Taltos. Head hurt just thinking about it. Bye. Linda G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 11 06:57:06 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 06:57:06 -0700 Subject: OK, then . . . References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henrik Jonsson" To: "Philip Hart" ; "Dragaera List" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 4:01 PM Subject: Re: OK, then . . . > From: "Philip Hart" > > > Pressure and cold are recommended, and a mild sedative for the pain - > > suggest you put some ice and whiskey in a tumbler and hold it carefully. > > Genius. However, I don't soil my whisky with ice, not even for medical > purposes, but the general idea is pure perfection. > My thoughts exactly. Although I have been known to put bourbon in the refrigerator in the summer, as room temperature here in Phoenix is around 110. Jeff From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 10:43:35 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: steve's weblog: _Kushiel's Dart_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041011174335.27073.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Turkel wrote: > On Oct 10, 2004, at 1:12 PM, Y Y wrote: > > > This comment appeared on the most recent entry in the weblog: > > > > "I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's > > the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has > > excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural > > and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in > > itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot > > bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace > > intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since > > Dumas." Dorothy Dunnett? > > What surprised and delighted me was that I too have just finished > > _Kushiel's Dart_ and found it a rather good read (although it was a > > little slow in the beginning). I won't try to describe it here, since > > I'm terrible at describing books. I'd only end up mangling it in the > > process. I do agree with Mr. Brust that you should read it, if you > > haven't already. > > > > I also found it interesting, while googling Ms. Carey's publications, > > that one of her two forthcoming books will be titled _Godslayer_. > > Someone mentioned that the title refers to a weapon, and I immediately > > thought of Vlad. > > > > ... and that is all. :) > > > > --Yihan > > I read that entry as well and immediately went out and bought it. II > had never read it and it isn't something I would I bought normally but > it seems okay so far..I just started and its going slow. For the benefit of anyone who buys books based on one recommendation, let me point out that the Kushiel books include a fair amount of S&M. Nowhere near as imaginative as in, say, a couple scenes in _Maia_, by Richard Adams (which anyone who likes K. should read), and nowhere near as gruesome as it could be, but there *are* Xacto knives. I enjoyed the books, aside from being bothered by a lot of unnecessary nits (like the "thou" disaster). In fact, I think I could call them a guilty pleasure. Maybe I need to be punished. Yes, definitely... I hope the ropes are silk. Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 10:47:15 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OK, then . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041011174715.37333.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> --- Henrik Jonsson wrote: ... > I drink my whisky at room temperature while ignoring the pain. We call > this the "manly" way, although my wife keeps substituting the adverb(*) > "manly" with "stupid"... > > > .. > > > Women... > > > ;-) > > > > > (*: I always thought that English adverbs were identified with the "-ly" > suffix, but "stupid" doesn't end with "-ly"... Then again "way" isn't a > verb, so I guess "manly way" is a grammatical error... Bah, keep your > stoopid > English to yourselves, I can't make heads or tails of it, anyhow. ;-) You're probably joking, just like the people who say X is Mario, but just in case--some English works ending in -ly are adjectives, and "manly" is one. "The manly way" is perfectly correct, and it's also the right way to drink whiskey. Uh, don't tell your wife I said that. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From warbi at warbi.net Mon Oct 11 11:04:57 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:04:57 -0700 Subject: OK, then . . . In-Reply-To: <20041011174715.37333.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Friedman [mailto:jerry_friedman at yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 10:47 AM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: OK, then . . . "The manly way" is perfectly correct, and it's also the right way to drink whiskey. Uh, don't tell your wife I said that. Jerry Friedman For single malts, a splash of water is used to help release the smell. Single malt glasses have two fill lines, one for the scotch and one to add the "proper" amount of water. warbi From sethterashima at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 13:58:40 2004 From: sethterashima at gmail.com (Seth Terashima) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:58:40 -0600 Subject: Mario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My theory: (Issola spoiler censored:) Mario:Pathfinder::T_____:Godslayer After reading _Five Hundred Years After_, I had all sorts of evidence supporting this, all of which I've forgotten. Cheers. From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 11 16:45:51 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:45:51 -0600 Subject: Mario In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c4afec$719be000$6400a8c0@Dad133> Seth Terashima wrote: > My theory: > > (Issola spoiler censored:) > > Mario:Pathfinder::T_____:Godslayer > > After reading _Five Hundred Years After_, I had all sorts of evidence > supporting this, all of which I've forgotten. > > Cheers. That seems like an odd personality twist. Anybody else remember any evidence? From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Oct 11 19:35:25 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:35:25 EDT Subject: Magicicada and The Mystical Number Seventeen Message-ID: <78.6319869a.2e9c9ced@aol.com> Hi, I posted something similar on the yahoo group in July. I was reminded to post it here when I saw a cicada this morning. Seventeen Houses. Seventeen Great Weapons. Seventeen chapters in books. Etc. Etc. Sometime after reading the cracksandshards.com section on The Mystical Number Seventeen, I heard on the radio that the cicada will be emerging in 2004. The seventeen year cycle cicada. A quick search came up with this website: http://insects.ummz.lsa.umich.edu/fauna/michigan_cicadas/Periodical It says there are thirteen and seventeen year cycle cicadas. Genus: Magicicada Cool. Seventeen a Magic number on Earth too. Agyar Orb edition page 156 "Numerology on the other hand, is a proven fact. That was a joke, Jim." Bye. Linda G. From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:19:24 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:19:24 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: <78.6319869a.2e9c9ced@aol.com> References: <78.6319869a.2e9c9ced@aol.com> Message-ID: Anybody here going to take a whack at the annual National Novel Writing Month competition coming up in November, http://nanowrimo.org/ I have some ideas that I'm trying to cobble together that pit the Hand of the Vulture (an order of Assassin-Priests) against the Hand of the Dove (Knights-Templar). The idea is very much of a FBI vs CIA kind of thing. The idea is to write 50,000 words (roughly 175 pages) in 30 days, so I'm trying to leave room for lots of pulply elbow room. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://blog.milton.ws . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From kcr at midsouth.rr.com Mon Oct 11 21:29:53 2004 From: kcr at midsouth.rr.com (Kevin Raybould) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:29:53 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200410120429.i9C4TtHH026032@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Actually, I was going to try it, just as a jump staert to bet me back in the habit of writing regularly. -----Original Message----- From: Johne Cook [mailto:johne.cook at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 11:19 PM Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: NaNoWriMo Anybody here going to take a whack at the annual National Novel Writing Month competition coming up in November, http://nanowrimo.org/ I have some ideas that I'm trying to cobble together that pit the Hand of the Vulture (an order of Assassin-Priests) against the Hand of the Dove (Knights-Templar). The idea is very much of a FBI vs CIA kind of thing. The idea is to write 50,000 words (roughly 175 pages) in 30 days, so I'm trying to leave room for lots of pulply elbow room. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://blog.milton.ws . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 9/27/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 9/27/2004 From vaklam at comcast.net Tue Oct 12 06:32:33 2004 From: vaklam at comcast.net (Brian Cooksey) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:32:33 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo Message-ID: johne cook said: >Anybody here going to take a whack at the annual National Novel >Writing Month competition coming up in November, http://nanowrimo.org/ > >I have some ideas that I'm trying to cobble together that pit the Hand >of the Vulture (an order of Assassin-Priests) against the Hand of the >Dove (Knights-Templar). The idea is very much of a FBI vs CIA kind of >thing. The idea is to write 50,000 words (roughly 175 pages) in 30 >days, so I'm trying to leave room for lots of pulply elbow room. I did it last year and I got a very-much-in-need-of-rewriting novel out of it. I've already signed up for this year's madness. I'm "Vaklam" on the NaNo forums. Your idea sounds really cool, by the way. Brian From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 08:23:32 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:23:32 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:32:33 -0500, Brian Cooksey wrote: > I did it last year and I got a very-much-in-need-of-rewriting novel > out of it. I've already signed up for this year's madness. I'm > "Vaklam" on the NaNo forums. I'm "Phy". > Your idea sounds really cool, by the way. > > Brian Thanks. This was what I wrote back in September as I prepared for writing contest at Deep Magic (a sci-fi / fantasy e-zine that is "a safe place for minds to wander"): "National enmities have been always produced and encouraged by kingly and priestly policy. The wolf is the natural enemy of the lamb; the vulture of the dove. By instinct they are so?" Piggot's Political Dictionary I needed to develop some key ideas for the October challenge, but found myself writing background stuff to work out the details. The Caducean Order which is comprised of two competing houses, the Hand of the Dove (Knights Templar) and the Hand of the Vulture (Assassin Priests). They have the same relationship as the FBI and CIA ? they both work for the government, but one is visible and one is covert. Both hate each other. This story is the story of an assassin. He will be a central figure in the companion story, as will Sir Rodrik, his nemesis, a real bad-a$$ do-gooder. I'm very aware that this will be a very editable, very pulpy, very derivative effort - it's 30 days fer cry-yi. I'm also very aware of my influences. In this case, I should apologize in advance to Steve and PC Hodgell (God Stalk) (with a dash of Arthur Landis, who won't mind as much, being dead already and all). Anyway, I'm looking forward to completing the 50,000 word goal, breaking through the dreaded second act barrier, writing through some truly awful scenes. As much as I admire Steve's writing, it is his *thinking* that I most admire. I'm hoping to introduce some nifty thoughts. If I can keep things moving along and pull it all together in the space and time allotted, I will be content. The threshold for "success" is very low for a project of this scope, which seems a fine place to start. I am at the place where I alternately crave and dread the starting date. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://blog.milton.ws . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From davids at Kithrup.COM Tue Oct 12 09:04:36 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > >I needed to develop some key ideas for the October challenge, but >found myself writing background stuff to work out the details. > >The Caducean Order which is comprised of two competing houses, the >Hand of the Dove (Knights Templar) and the Hand of the Vulture >(Assassin Priests). They have the same relationship as the FBI and CIA >??? they both work for the government, but one is visible and one is >covert. > >Both hate each other. > >This story is the story of an assassin. He will be a central figure in >the companion story, as will Sir Rodrik, his nemesis, a real bad-a$$ >do-gooder. > >I'm very aware that this will be a very editable, very pulpy, very >derivative effort - it's 30 days fer cry-yi. I'm also very aware of >my influences. In this case, I should apologize in advance to Steve >and PC Hodgell (God Stalk) (with a dash of Arthur Landis, who won't >mind as much, being dead already and all). > Have you read /The Apocalypse Door/, by James D. MacDonald? It sounds very much like what you describe above. It's got a smartass assassin Templar protagonist vs. the Teutonic Knights, and like that. Some people on this list might like it, although I thought that the ending was disappointing, and the religious aspects didn't do as much for me as it might have. It may have more resonance for Catholics, lapsed or otherwise. All of which is not to say that you should not do your own take on such things, of course. It seems that Katherine Kurtz did some anthologies of Knights Templar stories; perhaps you could submit to one of those if she does more. Reviews here: http://www.dkennedy.org/C2025243227/E638999845/ http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue294/books2.html http://google.com/groups?threadm=birkfe$civru$1 at ID-100778.news.uni-berlin.de http://google.com/groups?threadm=tillman-EE0D71.22563704062003 at news.fu-berlin.de http://google.com/groups?threadm=3eff2f87$0$964$cc9e4d1f at news.dial.pipex.com From Howard.Brazee at cusys.edu Tue Oct 12 09:46:53 2004 From: Howard.Brazee at cusys.edu (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:46:53 -0600 Subject: Kkushiel's Dart Message-ID: I just went out and bought _Kushiel's Dart_ based solely upon Steve's Web Log. I noticed two other Kushiel's books (How do I punctuate that?) at the store. I've got MileHiCon coming up and am trying to finish some books of GoHs at the moment. Moon, DeLint, & Saberhagen are the GoHs. I had never read any Moon before she was announced a few months ago. Their published other names are either regulars or people I haven't heard of. I enjoy DeLint, but sometimes lag behind in getting his books. I do the same thing with Wolfe, and oddly enough, Gaiman. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 12 19:05:54 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:05:54 EDT Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation Message-ID: > > >Spoiler space for past life wild speculation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, I am done soul searching for a while. Here is my wild speculation or proof as you may believe or not: P*ro the Visc ount of Adr ilanka has D*livar's soul. Issola Chapter 12 page 190 paperback Vlad thinking: 'took a glass of something red and sipped it. My tongue liked it--it was faintly nutty and had a bit of tang to it' Issola Chapter 12 page 191 Vlad speaking to Sethra: ' "Good wine," I told her. "Thanks." ' 'She smiled as if sharing a joke with herself and said, "You are most welcome, Lord Taltos." ' The Paths of the Dead, paperback Chapter the Seventeenth page 168 'a full, red Khaav'n for P*ro. P*ro sipped it, identified it at once by the dry, spicy flavor with a hint of nuttiness, and the mild tingling upon the tongue, a combination produced only by wines >from that district, whereupon he graced Tukko with a glance of inquiry. "In honor of your family", said Tukko in explanation.' Do you see? I was wondering why Sethra said Lord Taltos and not Vlad. This may be a bad sign for the state of my mind, but I actually counted the words in the following sentence: 'She smiled as if sharing a joke with herself and said, "You are most welcome, Lord Taltos." ' Seventeen, of course. It would have been sixteen, if Sethra had said Vlad. Bye. Linda G. From sethterashima at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:06:52 2004 From: sethterashima at gmail.com (Seth Terashima) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:06:52 -0600 Subject: Mario In-Reply-To: <000401c4afec$719be000$6400a8c0@Dad133> References: <000401c4afec$719be000$6400a8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: Five Hundred Years After/Issola spoilers. 5HYA: Many Jhereg believe that Mario is "...always searching for the one woman he ever loved." This would be consistant with Mario's personality, and the "searching" part implies (admitadly tenuously) Pathfinder. At the end of _Issola_, Sethra refers to GWs "waking up" which may be able to explain some of Brust's comments concerning events immediatly prior to a scene (forget which book) in which Vlad talks to and is almost killed by Aliera. 5HYA: "...Many believe that [Mario], body and soul, arrived in the same place as Aliera's soul..." While the word "body" may weaken my argument, Issola shows how that "place" may be Pathfinder. Compare Vlad's metaphysical experiences. All right. There might be more, but I guess "all sorts of evidence" was something of an overstatement. I won't pretend to have anything concrete, but IMHO it's an interesting idea. From sethterashima at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:17:53 2004 From: sethterashima at gmail.com (Seth Terashima) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:17:53 -0600 Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Minor spoilers for Sethra Lavode: IIRC: _SL_ was written during Norathor's reign, and Paafi mentions Piro is still alive. Piro and Vlad are contemporaries, so they can't both have Dolivar's soul (presumably, anyway...). From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 12 19:33:36 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:33:36 EDT Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation Message-ID: <197.30afd0cb.2e9dee00@aol.com> sethterashima at gmail.com wrote on 10/12/2004 >Minor spoilers for Sethra Lavode: >IIRC: >_SL_ was written during Norathor's reign, and Paafi mentions P*ro is >still alive. P*ro and Vlad are contemporaries, so they can't both have >D*livar's soul (presumably, anyway...). Hi, I was not able to find text evidence only rumors. See Conclusion Sethra Lavode. I used the *s to make it more difficult for Dragaera search routine. Bye. Linda G. From antuhej at hotmail.com Tue Oct 12 22:15:58 2004 From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:15:58 +0200 Subject: OK, then . . . References: Message-ID: From: "warbi" > For single malts, a splash of water is used to help release the smell. > Single malt glasses have two fill lines, one for the scotch and one to add > the "proper" amount of water. warbi As the amount of water to add varies from single malt to single malt, I don't see how a glass with two fill lines could be more correct than my (or anyone elses) own good judgement. If you're indulging yourself with a cask strength malt, you need more water than if you're sipping a "normal" strength single malt, etc. For the "normal" kinds, I very rarely add any water, as the brands I usually drink (Ardbeg, Lagavulin, Caol Ila) carries more than enough flavor to flood anyones pallet. And, besides, the "manly way", as we were discussing, obviously involves drinking it straight out of the bottle. ;-) /Henrik From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 12 22:38:39 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OK, then . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Henrik Jonsson wrote: > Now, if anyone has got a good cure for minor cuts to the fingertips, > I'd be REAL happy. ;-) So there was a horrible accident at my lab yesterday, and today we weren't allowed to run any hardware while the safety rules were updated and repromulgated (no, not "repromogulated", which my fingers seem to prefer) and reread, so my boss and I worked on some years-behind documentation, and just after sitting down he proceeded to get a nasty paper cut. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 07:06:17 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:06:17 -0700 Subject: Mario References: <000401c4afec$719be000$6400a8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Terashima" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Mario > Five Hundred Years After/Issola spoilers. > > 5HYA: Many Jhereg believe that Mario is "...always searching for the > one woman he ever loved." This would be consistant with Mario's > personality, and the "searching" part implies (admitadly tenuously) > Pathfinder. > > At the end of _Issola_, Sethra refers to GWs "waking up" which may be > able to explain some of Brust's comments concerning events immediatly > prior to a scene (forget which book) in which Vlad talks to and is > almost killed by Aliera. > > 5HYA: "...Many believe that [Mario], body and soul, arrived in the > same place as Aliera's soul..." While the word "body" may weaken my > argument, Issola shows how that "place" may be Pathfinder. Compare > Vlad's metaphysical experiences. > > All right. There might be more, but I guess "all sorts of evidence" > was something of an overstatement. I won't pretend to have anything > concrete, but IMHO it's an interesting idea. > As I recall, Vlad felt that Pathfinder had a personality that wanted to get straight to "smashing things", which does not seem to be consistent with Mario's personality. Besides, how would Mario father Devra (if in fact he is/was/will be) if he is Pathfinder? From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Oct 13 13:40:00 2004 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:40:00 -0700 Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller Message-ID: <6h4rm052p9j8mb3b3khqrfaqhlqsgi2grn@4ax.com> I thought the list might find this amusing. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~imcfadyen/notthenet/fantasy.htm Sample: 5. Create the Land The first thing the Motley Bunch must do is travel some phenomenal distance through an assortment of vastly different terrains and climates. All Fantasy Lands have every conceivable form of climate and landform - mountains, deserts, swamps, glaciers, forests - arranged randomly across the landscape contrary to any known principles of geography or ecology. Note: All fantasy worlds are roughly square. i.e. the shape of the double page of a paperback. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 16:14:15 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:14:15 -0700 Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller References: <6h4rm052p9j8mb3b3khqrfaqhlqsgi2grn@4ax.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "lazarus" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller I thought the list might find this amusing. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~imcfadyen/notthenet/fantasy.htm Ha! What is Robert Jorden going to do now that his secret is out? Jeff From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Oct 13 16:25:59 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:25:59 -0400 Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller In-Reply-To: References: <6h4rm052p9j8mb3b3khqrfaqhlqsgi2grn@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3DA04370-1D6F-11D9-9903-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Oct 13, 2004, at 7:14 PM, Jeff G. wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lazarus" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:40 PM > Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller > > > I thought the list might find this amusing. > > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~imcfadyen/notthenet/fantasy.htm > > > > > Ha! What is Robert Jorden going to do now that his secret is out? > > Jeff > ha! ha! Thats awesome! I am writing my own epic fantasy (One volume, just to see if I can pull it off) and I am glad I have avoided those cliches. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Oct 13 18:14:54 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:14:54 -0400 Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller Message-ID: <340269E9.6EC1D81F.00048EA6@aol.com> Chris Turkel writes: >On Oct 13, 2004, at 7:14 PM, Jeff G. wrote: > >> I thought the list might find this amusing. >> >> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~imcfadyen/notthenet/fantasy.htm > ha! ha! Thats awesome! I am writing my own epic fantasy (One > volume, just to see if I can pull it off) and I am glad I have > avoided those cliches. You need to get ahold of Diana Wynne Jones' _Tough Guide to Fantasyland_. It's the definitive glossary of fantasy cliches, and has the advantage of being alphabetized and fully cross-referenced. And remember, no matter how bad your story may be, it can't be worse than "The Eye of Argon".: http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/sf/argon.htm --KG From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 14 01:49:26 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:49:26 +0100 Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller In-Reply-To: <340269E9.6EC1D81F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041014084803.VTXK13844.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain> >-----Original Message----- >From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] >Sent: 14 October 2004 02:15 >To: dragaera list >And remember, no matter how bad your story may be, it can't be >worse than "The Eye of Argon".: I don't know, we could try. How about a competition for worst opening sentence al la "It was a dark and stormy night". Said sentence limited to no more than...oohhh...two pages? :-) Any volunteers to be judges? (there is one logical choice, but I'm reluctant to ask). Cheers Mark From shannon3d at yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 06:01:29 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041014130129.23593.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> Gosh, thanks! Now I have somewhere to start with NaNoWriMo. Hmmm, where did sign up page go..... Shan ----- Original Message ----- From: "lazarus" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: How to write an epic fantasy best seller I thought the list might find this amusing. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~imcfadyen/notthenet/fantasy.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Oct 14 07:06:35 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Johne Cook wrote: @> > I did it last year and I got a very-much-in-need-of-rewriting novel @> > out of it. I've already signed up for this year's madness. I'm @> > "Vaklam" on the NaNo forums. @> @> I'm "Phy". "Zarkon". I'm trying not to flake out this year. Enlisting my wife will probably help. From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Oct 14 07:08:27 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller In-Reply-To: <20041014084803.VTXK13844.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain> References: <20041014084803.VTXK13844.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Mark Tiller wrote: @> I don't know, we could try. How about a competition for worst opening @> sentence al la "It was a dark and stormy night". Said sentence limited to @> no more than...oohhh...two pages? :-) @> @> Any volunteers to be judges? (there is one logical choice, but I'm @> reluctant to ask). http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 14 11:26:25 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:26:25 +0100 Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041014182401.VOAO4745.mta04-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain> -----Original Message----- From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] Sent: 14 October 2004 15:08 To: 'dragaera list' Subject: Re: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Mark Tiller wrote: @> I don't know, we could try. How about a competition for worst opening @> sentence al la "It was a dark and stormy night". Said sentence limited to @> no more than...oohhh...two pages? :-) @> @> Any volunteers to be judges? (there is one logical choice, but I'm @> reluctant to ask). >http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ I know, I've looked at the site, that's one of the things that inspired me to suggest it. I just thought it would be a bit of fun for the list. Cheers Mark From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 14 15:34:49 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:34:49 -0700 Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller References: <20041014182401.VOAO4745.mta04-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tiller" To: "'John Klein'" ; "'dragaera list'" Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 11:26 AM Subject: RE: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] > Sent: 14 October 2004 15:08 > To: 'dragaera list' > Subject: Re: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic > fantasy best seller > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Mark Tiller wrote: > > @> I don't know, we could try. How about a competition for worst opening > @> sentence al la "It was a dark and stormy night". Said sentence limited > to > @> no more than...oohhh...two pages? :-) > @> > @> Any volunteers to be judges? (there is one logical choice, but I'm > @> reluctant to ask). > > >http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ > > I know, I've looked at the site, that's one of the things that inspired me > to suggest it. I just thought it would be a bit of fun for the list. > > Cheers > > Mark > > (here is a starter for ya. . . . .) His Imperial Majesty Roddrick B'laine; son of Edward son of Uther; Lord Protector of the 17 Realms, Champion of the Weak and Downtrodden stood upon the westernmost edge of the unyielding granite tower of Griffindell, his eyes shimmering like the sun on the waves of the merciless C'ficap Sea; named for the one man to sail across and return alive, clenched the fist that had wielded the dread sword Heklor Koch, slayer of countless foes and enemies; and cast his fell gaze upon the land of Medlir, the land of such unquenchable evil that it had spawned the fearsome Urck-Argh, killer of the North, as well as the terror only known as Darcniss, the most lethal assassin born, whose unstoppable reign of death had claimed his beloved wife Elindara, the half eleven Queen of Tolwais, and mother of his only child Jarrick, the scion of the Blaine line, less than a fortnight before, proving that he could strike in the heart of the Realm, and destroy that which Roddrick held dearest to his heart, while he was powerless to avenge her vicious slaying due to the Treaty of Gilneadom that ended the centuries old struggle between the two nations, signed on the same night the deadly killer struck the mortal blow to his lady love only an arms reach away and seconds before Roddricks pen touched the paper, wounding him in the most dehabilitaing manner, far worse than his own death could have ever done. ( I actually had to cut it off, it was growing beyond my control. Once you start a sentence like that it gets a life of its own, I think I could have let it go on for a page more at least. Plus my boss was looking over my shoulder wondering what the hell I was doing.) Jeff G. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Fri Oct 15 05:44:15 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:44:15 -0400 Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fant asy best seller Message-ID: > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > From: "Mark Tiller" > > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Mark Tiller wrote: > > > > @> I don't know, we could try. How about a competition for worst > opening > > @> sentence al la "It was a dark and stormy night". Said sentence > limited > > to > > @> no more than...oohhh...two pages? :-) > > @> > > @> Any volunteers to be judges? (there is one logical choice, but I'm > > @> reluctant to ask). > > > > >http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ > > > > I know, I've looked at the site, that's one of the things that inspired > me > > to suggest it. I just thought it would be a bit of fun for the list. > > > > Cheers > > > > Mark > > > > > > (here is a starter for ya. . . . .) > > His Imperial Majesty Roddrick B'laine; son of Edward son of Uther; Lord > Protector of the 17 Realms, Champion of the Weak and Downtrodden stood > upon > the westernmost edge of the unyielding granite tower of Griffindell, his > eyes shimmering like the sun on the waves of the merciless C'ficap Sea; > named for the one man to sail across and return alive, clenched the fist > that had wielded the dread sword Heklor Koch, slayer of countless foes and > enemies; and cast his fell gaze upon the land of Medlir, the land of such > unquenchable evil that it had spawned the fearsome Urck-Argh, killer of > the > North, as well as the terror only known as Darcniss, the most lethal > assassin born, whose unstoppable reign of death had claimed his beloved > wife > Elindara, the half eleven Queen of Tolwais, and mother of his only child > Jarrick, the scion of the Blaine line, less than a fortnight before, > proving > that he could strike in the heart of the Realm, and destroy that which > Roddrick held dearest to his heart, while he was powerless to avenge her > vicious slaying due to the Treaty of Gilneadom that ended the centuries > old > struggle between the two nations, signed on the same night the deadly > killer > struck the mortal blow to his lady love only an arms reach away and > seconds > before Roddricks pen touched the paper, wounding him in the most > dehabilitaing manner, far worse than his own death could have ever done. > > > > ( I actually had to cut it off, it was growing beyond my control. Once you > start a sentence like that it gets a life of its own, I think I could have > let it go on for a page more at least. Plus my boss was looking over my > shoulder wondering what the hell I was doing.) > > Jeff G. I no longer wonder how a full length short story in one sentence would read. From aejoubert at hotmail.com Fri Oct 15 06:08:31 2004 From: aejoubert at hotmail.com (Andrew Joubert) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:08:31 -0500 Subject: Mario Message-ID: >From: "Jeff G." >Besides, how would Mario father Devra (if in fact he >is/was/will be) if he is Pathfinder? No one is more qualified to genetically construct a daughter using a long dead lover's DNA retrieved from the lesser Sea of Chaos than Aliera. _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Oct 15 13:18:12 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:18:12 -0400 Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fantasy best seller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <416FF844.20469.17AF976@localhost> On 14 Oct 2004 at 15:34, Jeff G. wrote > (here is a starter for ya. . . . .) > > His Imperial Majesty Roddrick B'laine; son of Edward son of Uther; > Lord Protector of the 17 Realms, Champion of the Weak and Downtrodden > stood upon the westernmost edge of the unyielding granite tower of > Griffindell, his eyes shimmering like the sun on the waves of the > merciless C'ficap Sea; named for the one man to sail across and return > alive, clenched the fist that had wielded the dread sword Heklor > Koch, slayer of countless foes and enemies; and cast his fell gaze > upon the land of Medlir, the land of such unquenchable evil that it > had spawned the fearsome Urck-Argh, killer of the North, as well as > the terror only known as Darcniss, the most lethal assassin born, > whose unstoppable reign of death had claimed his beloved wife > Elindara, the half eleven Queen of Tolwais, and mother of his only > child Jarrick, the scion of the Blaine line, less than a fortnight > before, proving that he could strike in the heart of the Realm, and > destroy that which Roddrick held dearest to his heart, while he was > powerless to avenge her vicious slaying due to the Treaty of Gilneadom > that ended the centuries old struggle between the two nations, signed > on the same night the deadly killer struck the mortal blow to his lady > love only an arms reach away and seconds before Roddricks pen touched > the paper, wounding him in the most dehabilitaing manner, far worse > than his own death could have ever done. > Would have replied sooner - but I just finished the epic sentence. Do you think you could diagram that for me? ;-) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sat Oct 16 18:05:16 2004 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:05:16 EDT Subject: First Sentence competition? WAS RE: How to write an epic fant asy best se... Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/2004 4:05:39 AM Central Standard Time, gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org writes: > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > From: "Mark Tiller" > > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Mark Tiller wrote: > > > > @> I don't know, we could try. How about a competition for worst > opening > > @> sentence al la "It was a dark and stormy night". Said sentence > limited > > to > > @> no more than...oohhh...two pages? :-) > > @> > > @> Any volunteers to be judges? (there is one logical choice, but I'm > > @> reluctant to ask). > > > > >http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ > > > > I know, I've looked at the site, that's one of the things that inspired > me > > to suggest it. I just thought it would be a bit of fun for the list. > > > > Cheers > > > > Mark > > > > > > (here is a starter for ya. . . . .) > > His Imperial Majesty Roddrick B'laine; son of Edward son of Uther; Lord > Protector of the 17 Realms, Champion of the Weak and Downtrodden stood > upon > the westernmost edge of the unyielding granite tower of Griffindell, his > eyes shimmering like the sun on the waves of the merciless C'ficap Sea; > named for the one man to sail across and return alive, clenched the fist > that had wielded the dread sword Heklor Koch, slayer of countless foes and > enemies; and cast his fell gaze upon the land of Medlir, the land of such > unquenchable evil that it had spawned the fearsome Urck-Argh, killer of > the > North, as well as the terror only known as Darcniss, the most lethal > assassin born, whose unstoppable reign of death had claimed his beloved > wife > Elindara, the half eleven Queen of Tolwais, and mother of his only child > Jarrick, the scion of the Blaine line, less than a fortnight before, > proving > that he could strike in the heart of the Realm, and destroy that which > Roddrick held dearest to his heart, while he was powerless to avenge her > vicious slaying due to the Treaty of Gilneadom that ended the centuries > old > struggle between the two nations, signed on the same night the deadly > killer > struck the mortal blow to his lady love only an arms reach away and > seconds > before Roddricks pen touched the paper, wounding him in the most > dehabilitaing manner, far worse than his own death could have ever done. > > > > ( I actually had to cut it off, it was growing beyond my control. Once you > start a sentence like that it gets a life of its own, I think I could have > let it go on for a page more at least. Plus my boss was looking over my > shoulder wondering what the hell I was doing.) > > Jeff G. I no longer wonder how a full length short story in one sentence would read. Dyaammm. That was truly horribly nice. In This World there are no enemies, nor are there friends; There are only potential opponents with varying degrees of skill. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Oct 16 23:26:21 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 02:26:21 EDT Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation Message-ID: <13e.3e6b139.2ea36a8d@aol.com> > Minor spoiler for Sethra Lavode: > > > > > > > > > > sethterashima at gmail.com emailed me on 10/16/2004 >...remember Paarfi saying that P*ro and his >wife still live in Adrilankah, but that it would be indiscreet to say >where. Hi, Yes, it says that in the first page of the conclusion. I had forgotten that and was not rereading the whole conclusion. I was misreading the word lives on page 340. I guess it is supposed to mean lives as in earns a living. So then I guess the joke is that Sethra is remembering that *her friend* Kiera said "Good wine" to Vlad in Chapter 2 of Taltos. Issola Chapter 12 page 191 Vlad speaking to Sethra: ' "Good wine," I told her. "Thanks." ' 'She smiled as if sharing a joke with herself and said, "You are most welcome, Lord Taltos." ' Bye. Linda G. From davids at Kithrup.COM Sun Oct 17 00:04:41 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation In-Reply-To: <13e.3e6b139.2ea36a8d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >Issola Chapter 12 page 191 > >Vlad speaking to Sethra: ' "Good wine," I told her. "Thanks." ' > >'She smiled as if sharing a joke with herself and said, "You are >most welcome, Lord Taltos." ' > At one point, I speculated pararectally that "as if sharing a joke with herself" was supposed to hint that she was conversing with Iceflame in some manner. ] If Iceflame is as snarky as Loiosh, maybe he/she said something ] like "Well. The Easterner is learning some manners. Maybe I ] *won't* eat his soul." Assuming that's even what she was smiling ] about. From lister at insaneninjahero.com Sun Oct 17 02:28:53 2004 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 02:28:53 -0700 Subject: Steve makes a webcomic? Message-ID: <41723B55.3050909@insaneninjahero.com> The subject of this email is a filthy lie, an effort at misdirection. This is an off topic plug for a webcomic that I enjoy greatly. Now, there is a very strong reason why I chose to do an off topic plug, at this particular time. Read on, dear neighbor. Everything that you need to know to understand is contained in this email. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ >> Schlocktoberfest Warning! Open Letter, Sunday, October 17, 2004 As Book III was drawing to a close I mentioned that Book IV was going to be darker than usual. The story I want to tell is a really, really good one (at least that's what the Voices In My Head keep telling me), but the only way to tell it properly is darkly. We're going to begin some of the worst of that darkness, oh, NOW. I'm not going to say much in the Open Letter or on the forums about the plot. This will be better if you are allowed to experience it as it unfolds. Of course, when I say that I mean that it will be better for me, because I get hours of joy reading the speculation, consternation, and outright indignation at the atrocities I commit in this comic. Some of you are going to get angry with me. I can live with that. I'd be doing this wrong if everyone was happy. Please hang in there. I've wanted to tell this story for about three years now, and I think I finally have the chops to pull it off. >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ I wonder that this isn't something many authors glean sadistic enjoyment from. Derrill From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 17 15:16:32 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:16:32 EDT Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) Message-ID: <157.41a137fc.2ea44940@aol.com> >Minor Spoiler for Sethra Lavode >and point-first knife-throwing > > > > > > > > > > > > FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:24:41 EDT >Has anyone figured out a House for Grassfog and his sister >Tsira? >Could they have been Easterners? Sethra Lavode, Chapter >79 a body will be burned to speed it to the next life. No talk >on that page about should we bring the body to Deathgate. >Others were brought to Deathgate and we learn their Houses >on page 336 Sethra Lavode, Epilogue. Just wondering because >of that ch ain and am ulet. Hi, I guess not unless Grassfog is a very long-lived Easterner. Lord of Castle Black Chapter 47 page 145 paperback Grassfog speaking: "I was apprenticed to a physicker for a time, shortly before the Interregnum". Which would make him over 247 years old. And here I had a nice theory going on a connection between Tsira, Grassfog's sister, and Vlad or Cawti's family based on successful, point-first knife-throwing. I was going to add this to the thought that the ch ain knew something and was trying to get to D*livar's next life because it did not get to stay with the present life P*ro. But the P*ro idea fell apart... unless...no stop writing about it. Wait. But it could be several books from now. Wait patiently. Here is the knife connection anyway. Sethra Lavode Chapter 96 page 283 hardback Tsira "quickly threw a knife with such skill that it seemed to weave its way around her friends and strike one of the enemy, point-first in his chest". The Book of Athyra, Orca Chapter 12 page 377-378 Orca paperback page 214 "To my amazement it actually hit him point-first" ... "and wouldn't you know it, the one I'd had time to aim hit him sort of edge-on in the stomach and did no damage to speak of" I was thinking it was a family trait and a subconscious use of witchcraft. Because the witch does not realize they are changing the spin, it might work best when the conscious mind doesn't try to interfere by aiming or with a little help >from Verra. The Book of Taltos, Taltos page 10 Chapter 1 "all the things Noish-pa was showing me--like how to make a leaf blow slightly askew of the wind just by willing it to" Bye. Linda G. From dgf at dd-b.net Sun Oct 17 15:17:02 2004 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Oct 2004 22:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20041017221702.8934.qmail@dd-b.net> abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zerika (at) gmail.com (email) Zerika zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From mam at theworld.com Sun Oct 17 15:30:28 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:30:28 -0400 Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: # #I was wondering why Sethra said Lord Taltos and not Vlad. #This may be a bad sign for the state of my mind, but I actually #counted the words in the following sentence: # #'She smiled as if sharing a joke with herself and said, "You are #most welcome, Lord Taltos." ' # #Seventeen, of course. It would have been sixteen, if Sethra had #said Vlad. The adjective I use for the truly pathological form of this condition is "omen-ridden". -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 17 20:48:20 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:48:20 EDT Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation Message-ID: in response to what FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Tue, 12 Oct 2004 # #I was wondering why Sethra said Lord Taltos and not Vlad. #This may be a bad sign for the state of my mind, but I actually #counted the words in the following sentence: # #'She smiled as if sharing a joke with herself and said, "You are #most welcome, Lord Taltos." ' # #Seventeen, of course. It would have been sixteen, if Sethra had #said Vlad. Mark A Mandel wrote on Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:30:28 -0400 >The adjective I use for the truly pathological form of this condition is >"omen-ridden". Hi, It is probably contagious too. What would your definition of the truly pathological form be? Would the definition involve doing another reread of The Phoenix Guards through Issola and writing down occurrences of paintings, recipes and such (culture and art)? It may not be too late...I have not started yet. I was *not* planning on counting all the sentences that are 17 words long. I hope that is a good sign. Bye. Linda G. From davids at Kithrup.COM Mon Oct 18 12:54:56 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spoiler for past life wild speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >The adjective I use for the truly pathological form of this >condition is "omen-ridden". > http://www.wordspy.com/words/pareidolia.asp An exceedingly useful word. From davids at Kithrup.COM Tue Oct 19 12:29:10 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra Message-ID: Something that we readers of Paarfi must keep in mind is that Paarfi makes stuff up. For example, in /The Paths of the Dead/, when Piro and Kytraan meet Tazendra, it's this hugely dramatic moment where they can't see who is challenging them because of the sunglare - except that because the sun is directly in their faces and is *behind* her, it must follow that Tazendra can easily make out who she is addressing, and of course, she knows who Kytraan is; why would she challenge him as if he was some stranger? Thinking along these lines caused me to wonder if our entire picture of Tazendra has been horribly skewed by Paarfi because he wanted a "comic relief" hero character. This seems more probable in the books FHYA and later - as a young woman, she might have been that naive, but after *five centuries*, her remaining that immature seems highly improbable. And to some extent, Paarfi undermines his protrayal of her as a naif with the scene in Gyorg Lavode's room, or for that matter, writing about her when she is a Lavode herself. So it seems quite likely to me that if Tazendra ever *did* talk like that, it was perforce out of playfulness, or in a deeply ironic mode, because it amused her, and because she knew quite well what the stereotype of the Dzur Hero is, and deliberately played up to that at times (even while usually being quite seriously prepared to follow through, because she *is* a Dzur, after all). So if there *was* a challenge at Dzur Mountain, for example, I can well see it as Tazendra feeling less than entirely serious. Thus, when she sees Kytraan and Piro, she recognizes Kytraan and decides to see if she can startle him. She bellows out "Hey, you! There's two of you and only one of me! Wanna fight?" And Kytraan answers "Tazendra! You nearly had me going there. Anything new happen?" And Tazendra comes back with "Hi Kytraan! You and that cute Tiassa are the newest things around. Aren't you going to introduce me?" Or something like that, assuming a challenge even happened at all. Of course, we will probably never know, unless there's a book written by Sethra Lavode, or by Khaavren, or perhaps even by Piro, about that time period. Anyway, it gives a potentially new perspective to keep in mind when reading some of the more painfully naive lines Paarfi gives Tazendra, especially in the later books. I mean, really now. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Oct 19 12:46:45 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:46:45 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041019194645.GA26079@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 12:29:10PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > Something that we readers of Paarfi must keep in mind is that > Paarfi makes stuff up. For example . . . *blink* . . . *blink* . . . Paarfi lies? Damn, there go all my illusions. Steve "lies like wall-to-wall carpet - flat out and cover everything" Simmons -- ``Being normal and responsible can be a strain, especially if it's not your natural state.'' Wendy Nather, Message-Id: From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Oct 19 13:06:04 2004 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (gomi at speakeasy.net) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:06:04 +0000 Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at Kithrup.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 07:29 PM > To: 'Dragaera List' > Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra > And to some extent, Paarfi undermines his protrayal of her as > a naif with the scene in Gyorg Lavode's room, or for that > matter, writing about her when she is a Lavode herself. It seemed pretty clear to me that the whole point of the Gyorg Lavode's room scene was to establish that Tazendra is, in fact, putting us all on, and that Sethra asked her to dispense with that put-on for a few moments. It never even occurred to me that Paarfi might be making a serious attempt to portray her as a for-real naif. From davids at Kithrup.COM Tue Oct 19 15:13:55 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 gomi at speakeasy.net wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Silberstein >> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 07:29 PM > >> And to some extent, Paarfi undermines his protrayal of her as >> a naif with the scene in Gyorg Lavode's room, or for that >> matter, writing about her when she is a Lavode herself. > >It seemed pretty clear to me that the whole point of the Gyorg >Lavode's room scene was to establish that Tazendra is, in fact, >putting us all on, and that Sethra asked her to dispense with that >put-on for a few moments. It never even occurred to me that Paarfi >might be making a serious attempt to portray her as a for-real >naif. > Huh. I wonder if SKZB will deign to let us know if his intent was for Tazendra to have been putting us on, or for Paarfi to have been the one responsible for a certain inconsistency in the way he portrayed Tazendra? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 19 17:57:05 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > Huh. I wonder if SKZB will deign to let us know if his intent was > for Tazendra to have been putting us on, or for Paarfi to have been > the one responsible for a certain inconsistency in the way he > portrayed Tazendra? I don't see her as being inconsistently portrayed - in my view she has certain cognitive deficits and certain cognitive talents which she is not in the habit of using. In academic situations as elsewhere one meets people who are smart in some ways and impaired in others - without having had access to math/engineering/science training they would probably be high-potential low achievers. Then again maybe Sethra is fond of her apprentice but found her trying in some ways and decided to exaggerate some of her foibles greatly. [From a meta POV, the other musketeers are all highly intelligent and the Author(s) needed to have at least one dumb character for balance; for reader access to the smart characters' thoughts by dumb or uniformed questions; for humor; etc.] From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 19 13:10:11 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:10:11 -0700 Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098216611.2368.69.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 15:13, David Silberstein wrote: > Huh. I wonder if SKZB will deign to let us know if his intent was > for Tazendra to have been putting us on, or for Paarfi to have been > the one responsible for a certain inconsistency in the way he > portrayed Tazendra? No. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 19 19:34:58 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > Something that we readers of Paarfi must keep in mind is that > Paarfi makes stuff up. For example, in /The Paths of the Dead/, > when Piro and Kytraan meet Tazendra, it's this hugely dramatic > moment where they can't see who is challenging them because of > the sunglare - except that because the sun is directly in their > faces and is *behind* her, it must follow that Tazendra can > easily make out who she is addressing, [...] This is not entirely clear to me, speaking as someone with some photophobia. Dragaerans may have evolved some adaptation to the overcast (well, the generation time is very long and it's been less than ~100k years and selection pressure is hard to judge for intelligent beings). Anyway, I can imagine that on a very bright day, looking down from above, at some distance, at age 1000, I might have trouble making out a face. One might as well ask why K didn't recognize T's voice straight off. Anyway, the whole Sethra-sends-two-expeditions-to-Adrilankha thing struck me as improbable. Perhaps she told Paarfi that she had summoned Zerika - then later mentioned that K had picked up Piro, and he got confused about the two trips. And perhaps he tossed in the meeting with T for fun. But absent clear evidence (esp. on points refutable by surviving witnesses) I think I'll stick with the thesis that Paarfi/Sethra is honest and that someone else isn't always. From dustysayers at earthlink.net Tue Oct 19 19:44:58 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:44:58 -0400 Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4175D12A.3030305@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: >On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 gomi at speakeasy.net wrote: > > > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: David Silberstein >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 07:29 PM >>> >>> >>>And to some extent, Paarfi undermines his protrayal of her as >>>a naif with the scene in Gyorg Lavode's room, or for that >>>matter, writing about her when she is a Lavode herself. >>> >>> >>It seemed pretty clear to me that the whole point of the Gyorg >>Lavode's room scene was to establish that Tazendra is, in fact, >>putting us all on, and that Sethra asked her to dispense with that >>put-on for a few moments. It never even occurred to me that Paarfi >>might be making a serious attempt to portray her as a for-real >>naif. >> >> >> > >Huh. I wonder if SKZB will deign to let us know if his intent was >for Tazendra to have been putting us on, or for Paarfi to have been >the one responsible for a certain inconsistency in the way he >portrayed Tazendra? > > Well, Paarfi did (in, I think, chapter the 18th of Paths of the Dead) use Tazendra as an example of writing in an ironic mode, in which the character is portrayed in a manner inconsistent with how he or she really would have been. From that, I take it that Tazendra's portrayal is not meant to be taken entirely seriously, and that we should recognise that her characterisation is, in part, a plot device or narrative mode. But i could be wrong. -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do.' -- Steven Brust From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 19 21:46:09 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:46:09 EDT Subject: Some thoughts on Tazendra Message-ID: <146.363f1b1d.2ea74791@aol.com> David Silberstein wrote on Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:29:10 -0700 (PDT) >For example, in /The Paths of the Dead/, >when Piro and Kytraan meet Tazendra, it's this hugely dramatic >moment where they can't see who is challenging them because of >the sunglare - except that because the sun is directly in their >faces and is *behind* her, it must follow that Tazendra can >easily make out who she is addressing, and of course, she knows >who Kytraan is; why would she challenge him as if he was some >stranger? Hi, Tazendra and Kytraan may have been strangers. The Paths of the Dead last paragraph of Chapter 16 and first couple pages of Chapter 17 paperback 159-165. I think you can read this section in such a way that Tazendra and Kytraan have never seen each other before. Tazendra may know about a Kytraan and his mission, but not know what he looks like since they have never met face to face. It is a pretty big mountain inside and outside. Bye. Linda G. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Oct 20 13:53:06 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Neal Stephenson interview Message-ID: <200410202053.i9KKr6RM005177@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> It's off-topic, but I thought readers might be interested. I direct the list's attention to question #4, if nowhere else (though I found #3 very interesting). http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/20/1518217 :) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Oct 20 14:06:06 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Neal Stephenson interview Message-ID: <200410202106.i9KL66RM006365@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> I wrote: > I direct the list's attention to question > #4, if nowhere else (though I found #3 > very interesting). Dang, I should really type slower. I meant #2, not #3. My bad. I shall peel off my toenails with pliers in penitence. Chris "I would rather go honestly to Hell, admitting that I leaped knowingly into error and folly, than enter into the sweetest Heaven men can dream of by whining that I had been pushed." - _Freedom and Necessity_ - Brust & Bull From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Oct 21 05:55:50 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:55:50 -0400 Subject: OT: Neal Stephenson interview In-Reply-To: <200410202106.i9KL66RM006365@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200410202106.i9KL66RM006365@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <4177B1D6.8090502@email.ers.usda.gov> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >I wrote: > > >>I direct the list's attention to question >>#4, if nowhere else (though I found #3 >>very interesting). >> >> > >Dang, I should really type slower. I meant >#2, not #3. My bad. I shall peel off my toenails >with pliers in penitence. > > > Interesting interview. Having started out as one of those academic critics, at least in embroyonic form, I feel I can speak to some of what he is saying, but I'd say he missed a bet. There's actually a second bifurcation on the critical side between academic literary studies & public reviewers and critics; often the two have little in common, and there are many more academics than reviewers. It's true that SF doesn't get studied as often proportionally as traditional fiction (& perhaps not as often as its readers & adherents feel is justified). OTOH, when I taught my first class in the spring of '76, the course chairman selected =The Left Hand of Darkness= for us. He was a Medievalist of some note, and LeGuin stood between =The Odyssey=, =Don Quixote=, =Huck Finn=, =A Hero of Our Times=, =Journey to the East= & a bunch of others. (Yes, there is a common theme here.) I 'd add that is exceptional; most academics have all they can do to master their own (relatively) narrow particulars. And it is just that focussing that tends to exclude SF and other sub-genres from study, more than snobbishness. But as time goes on, it gets hard to contribute any significant to the overall body of literary criticism; a scholar has to cast a wider net. Most of them would rather do that anyhow, just to avoid total boredom. So you do see a gradually increasing number of SF works creeping into serious academic studies. I'm bemused by Stephenson's notion of the Beowulf audience, and the accountability of the Beowulf authors to it, vs. the Dante audience. The original audience for the one was probably the social ancestor of the audience for the other; Beowulf wasn't composed for peasants (although most of its listeners probably were illiterate). That there are different populations an artist is accountable to today (& yesterday) I don't doubt. It is less clear that this accountability translates straightforwardly into literary style or tone or what have you-- see Northrop Frye's =Anatomy of Criticism= (1948, and one of the earliest Structuralist attempts at literary criticism) for a more complete look. If you like. Snarkhunter From dragaera at juima.org Sun Oct 24 21:06:33 2004 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:06:33 +1000 Subject: Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars. Message-ID: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> Hey all, I'm running about eight thousand messages behind on this list (have been backpacking my way around the world for the last year, and had a Master's thesis gobble up all my time in the year before that), but that's still down from the ten thousand it was a couple of months ago. At this point I just treat the mass of conversation of all y'all as a general form of entertainment on lonely nights in various hostels (laptops are good), as well as a very useful resource to dig into after finishing another Brust book the day after _finally_ finding it. (Only Brokedown Palace to go now! Well, and Sethra Lavode, but that's sitting at home (at the other side of the world) waiting for me.) My thanks to all of you for being such an awesome bunch of people. :P Anyhoo, someday I will catch up and become active again (like I was for all of two weeks back in 2002). For now however: a couple of weeks ago I found myself a copy of "The Sun, the Moon & the Stars" and swallowed it whole that very same day, and loved it (of course), and started seeing a number of arts in a new light because of it - for which you, Steve, have my eternal thanks. What was said about photography in particular really touched me ("The lens points both ways"), but I also really liked the architecture chapter - enough to go and poke a friend who's studying architecture for her thoughts on some things. Out of that conversation rose a question as to the nature of how you write, which I can't decide upon myself. So I'm hoping you can settle that for me. Okay, so let me see. "An architect can't ignore nature, because ..." But then half a page later, the guy is lauding Le Corbusier. Who did exactly that. (Designed apparently famous buildings in India by the "international style", which completely ignored the local culture and were thus abandoned/became ghettos/were torn down.) Of course there's some difference between nature/culture there, but it's still funny. Now what I'm wondering is: did you set up this 'contradiction' deliberately? (And if so, as necessary by the main character's character, or to reinforce the truth of the "don't ignore nature" statement?) I know you're writing on that level, but I can't decide for myself if you actually _did_ here, or if these two parts of the chapter should just be seen separately. Or don't you see a contradiction there at all? Hmm... *rereads* Pretend I phrased that in such a way that you'll actually be willing to answer the question? Pretty please? Thanks, Sander From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Oct 24 17:29:26 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:29:26 -0700 Subject: Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars. In-Reply-To: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> Message-ID: <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> First of all, thanks for the all the kind words. On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 21:06, Sander wrote: > Of course there's > some difference between nature/culture there, Some difference? Yeah. In fact, they are exact opposites. "Culture" refers to precisely that which is NOT nature. Originally, one referred to a "cultured" field, as opposed to a fallow field. In the same sense, biologists in the lab produce a "culture" which refers to organic growth under conditions that are NOT natural. Today we use culture to refer to the sum total of Man's technique and knowledge; that is, everything that has been developed out of our conflict with nature; of which art is, in my opinion, the highest product. On the other hand, I would be lying if I claimed to remember how much of that, if any, I had in mind when I wrote that book. It was a long time ago, and I no longer ever remember who that architect is. Sorry. -- Steven Brust skzb at dreamcafe.com "Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?" "Quite specific. It's rather fuzzier, however, on the subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly From books at bofh.com Mon Oct 25 17:12:19 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:12:19 -0700 Subject: New/old crack... Message-ID: <20041026001219.GB3230@bofh.com> I haven't seen this one discussed before, so it's old, but new. (I also didn't see it in a quick persual of http://cracksandshards.com ) On page 83 of my paperback copy of Teckla, Vlad says he's seen Spellbreaker dangling in mid-air once, when he got it, from under Dzur Mountain. This is clearly a case where Steven changed the story for Taltos, when he gets Spellbreaker from Loraan's keep, dangling in mid-air. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Oct 25 17:30:52 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:30:52 -0400 Subject: New/old crack... In-Reply-To: <20041026001219.GB3230@bofh.com> References: <20041026001219.GB3230@bofh.com> Message-ID: <4B100F40-26E6-11D9-88A9-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Oct 25, 2004, at 8:12 PM, Jot Powers wrote: > I haven't seen this one discussed before, so it's old, but > new. (I also didn't see it in a quick persual of > http://cracksandshards.com ) > > On page 83 of my paperback copy of Teckla, Vlad says he's > seen Spellbreaker dangling in mid-air once, when he got > it, from under Dzur Mountain. > > This is clearly a case where Steven changed the story > for Taltos, when he gets Spellbreaker from Loraan's keep, > dangling in mid-air. Maybe he's just messing with us readers, to keep us honest :-) From davids at Kithrup.COM Mon Oct 25 18:09:27 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New/old crack... In-Reply-To: <4B100F40-26E6-11D9-88A9-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Chris Turkel wrote: > >On Oct 25, 2004, at 8:12 PM, Jot Powers wrote: > >> I haven't seen this one discussed before, so it's old, but >> new. (I also didn't see it in a quick persual of >> http://cracksandshards.com ) >> >> On page 83 of my paperback copy of Teckla, Vlad says he's >> seen Spellbreaker dangling in mid-air once, when he got >> it, from under Dzur Mountain. >> >> This is clearly a case where Steven changed the story >> for Taltos, when he gets Spellbreaker from Loraan's keep, >> dangling in mid-air. > >Maybe he's just messing with us readers, to keep us honest :-) > Perhaps. However, it may be that some of Sethra's rooms or corridors resemble Loraan's keep. Vlad has mentioned, for example, some of the weird gizmos and whatnot she has. And perhaps one of these gizmos *did* cause Spellbreaker to dangle in mid-air, perhaps more memorably than when he first saw it in Loraan's keep. Perhaps. Or maybe someone had a brainfart. Who can say? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 05:05:26 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:05:26 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> Message-ID: I am going to have to disagree with you on one minor point, and that is that I feel culture is a result of mankind's conflict with himself, rather than nature. Yes, nature plays an important role, but culture is usually "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group" (Merriam-Webster Online). Culture is both the social lubricant that allows society to exist, as well as the end result of the interaction of society in the form of art, and more importantly fosters the continued survival of that society. Of course, you could also say that society is what allows us to impose our will upon nature, thus I have completed the circular argument, and made your point for you again. Jeff G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars. > First of all, thanks for the all the kind words. > > On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 21:06, Sander wrote: > > Of course there's > > some difference between nature/culture there, > > Some difference? Yeah. In fact, they are exact opposites. "Culture" > refers to precisely that which is NOT nature. Originally, one referred > to a "cultured" field, as opposed to a fallow field. In the same sense, > biologists in the lab produce a "culture" which refers to organic growth > under conditions that are NOT natural. Today we use culture to refer to > the sum total of Man's technique and knowledge; that is, everything that > has been developed out of our conflict with nature; of which art is, in > my opinion, the highest product. > > On the other hand, I would be lying if I claimed to remember how much of > that, if any, I had in mind when I wrote that book. It was a long time > ago, and I no longer ever remember who that architect is. Sorry. > > > -- > Steven Brust skzb at dreamcafe.com > "Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about > killing?" "Quite specific. It's rather fuzzier, however, on the > subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 00:14:03 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:14:03 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) In-Reply-To: References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> The American Heritage dictionary says: 1. The cultivation of the soil; tillage. 2. The breeding of animals or growing of plants, especially to produce improved stock. 3. (biology, skipped) 4. Social and intellectual formation. 5. The totality of of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought characteristic of a community or population. On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 05:05, Jeff wrote: > I am going to have to disagree with you on one minor point, and that is that > I feel culture is a result of mankind's conflict with himself, rather than > nature. Yes, nature plays an important role, but culture is usually "the > customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, > or social group" (Merriam-Webster Online). Culture is both the social > lubricant that allows society to exist, as well as the end result of the > interaction of society in the form of art, and more importantly fosters the > continued survival of that society. Of course, you could also say that > society is what allows us to impose our will upon nature, thus I have > completed the circular argument, and made your point for you again. > > Jeff G. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brust" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & > the Stars. > > > > First of all, thanks for the all the kind words. > > > > On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 21:06, Sander wrote: > > > Of course there's > > > some difference between nature/culture there, > > > > Some difference? Yeah. In fact, they are exact opposites. "Culture" > > refers to precisely that which is NOT nature. Originally, one referred > > to a "cultured" field, as opposed to a fallow field. In the same sense, > > biologists in the lab produce a "culture" which refers to organic growth > > under conditions that are NOT natural. Today we use culture to refer to > > the sum total of Man's technique and knowledge; that is, everything that > > has been developed out of our conflict with nature; of which art is, in > > my opinion, the highest product. > > > > On the other hand, I would be lying if I claimed to remember how much of > > that, if any, I had in mind when I wrote that book. It was a long time > > ago, and I no longer ever remember who that architect is. Sorry. > > > > > > -- > > Steven Brust skzb at dreamcafe.com > > "Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about > > killing?" "Quite specific. It's rather fuzzier, however, on the > > subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly > > > > > From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 26 07:16:35 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:16:35 -0600 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) In-Reply-To: <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:14:03 -0700, Steve Brust wrote: > The American Heritage dictionary says: 1. The cultivation of the soil; > tillage. 2. The breeding of animals or growing of plants, especially to > produce improved stock. 3. (biology, skipped) 4. Social and > intellectual formation. 5. The totality of of socially transmitted > behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products > of human work and thought characteristic of a community or population. It is awfully fun to look at a concept from a different POV. The whole concept of culture being the opposite of nature is worth exploring - especially with our newfound appreciation of nature. Historically nature hasn't been appreciated much - The Grand Canyon was described as an obstacle. Things that isolated us from nature were valued. "High culture" was more removed from nature than "low culture", and appreciated by those who didn't need to dirty their hands with living. Our fiction tends to agree with our current sensibilities. People in primitive societies don't fight nature so much. "Natural" isn't a dirty word. (I know I am exaggerating some - but not much). -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 26 08:33:57 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:33:57 -0600 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) In-Reply-To: References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:42:20 -0700, Jeff wrote: > I didn't expect such a fast response, especially as it as early for > Steven as it is for me. Writers need to be diciplined. Some work well in mornings, others later. I wonder what Steve's work-schedule is. > The main difference in our opinions seems to be in the > definition of the word, you are using the totality of its various > definitions in your use, and I am using the definitions that seem (to > me) to > be more applicable to our society. But to further the discussion, can Man > truly be in conflict with nature? We are a part of nature, and as such so > are our works. To plagiarize a bit, what is the difference of a dam > built by > a beaver for its use, and a dam built by man for his own? Strictly > speaking, > because man has developed a society, and our creations are (for the most > part) for society as a whole, they are the same but on a larger scale > thus creating a larger effect. Of course man is part of nature. But in our egotism, we define our species as superior and apart from the rest of nature. But I also define my family as more important (to me) than the rest of mankind. Imagining a planet with multiple intelligent species - one would think that they should have different definitions of culture that are species-centric. We talk about different "cultures" on Earth, but they share common characteristics, differing mainly in style. Dragaerans are a designed species with designed biological differences, but they are still related to humans. Oddly enough, of the five "species" we see, the gods seem to be less alien than the others. I wonder if they were created from humans as well. The final two species obviously have different concepts of culture than we do. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 08:56:48 2004 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:56:48 +0000 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & Message-ID: Gah. If there's one thing that gets me going, it's humans insisting to various degrees (you actually aren't so bad) that they are separate from nature. Man's conflict with "himself" is the SAME THING as man's conflict with nature. Sorry. Guess you hit a button there or something. Nature is the one thing that we all belief we're separate from, or "above". But guess what, we're not. We act according to human NATURE. We cannot avoid acting according to human NATURE. Ironically enough, part of that human NATURE is a tendency to be arrogant and elitist. Anyway... Jon ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Jeff" To: Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:05:26 -0700 I am going to have to disagree with you on one minor point, and that is that I feel culture is a result of mankind's conflict with himself, rather than nature. Yes, nature plays an important role, but culture is usually "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group" (Merriam-Webster Online). Culture is both the social lubricant that allows society to exist, as well as the end result of the interaction of society in the form of art, and more importantly fosters the continued survival of that society. Of course, you could also say that society is what allows us to impose our will upon nature, thus I have completed the circular argument, and made your point for you again. Jeff G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars. > First of all, thanks for the all the kind words. > > On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 21:06, Sander wrote: > > Of course there's > > some difference between nature/culture there, > > Some difference? Yeah. In fact, they are exact opposites. "Culture" > refers to precisely that which is NOT nature. Originally, one referred > to a "cultured" field, as opposed to a fallow field. In the same sense, > biologists in the lab produce a "culture" which refers to organic growth > under conditions that are NOT natural. Today we use culture to refer to > the sum total of Man's technique and knowledge; that is, everything that > has been developed out of our conflict with nature; of which art is, in > my opinion, the highest product. > > On the other hand, I would be lying if I claimed to remember how much of > that, if any, I had in mind when I wrote that book. It was a long time > ago, and I no longer ever remember who that architect is. Sorry. > > > -- > Steven Brust skzb at dreamcafe.com > "Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about > killing?" "Quite specific. It's rather fuzzier, however, on the > subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 09:03:25 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > The American Heritage dictionary says: 1. The cultivation of the soil; > [...] How about the cultivation of the soil of human minds by memes? From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 26 09:12:04 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:12:04 -0600 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:56:48 +0000, J C wrote: > Gah. If there's one thing that gets me going, it's humans insisting to > various degrees (you actually aren't so bad) that they are separate from > nature. > > Man's conflict with "himself" is the SAME THING as man's conflict with > nature. > > Sorry. Guess you hit a button there or something. > > Nature is the one thing that we all belief we're separate from, or > "above". But guess what, we're not. We act according to human NATURE. > We cannot avoid acting according to human NATURE. Ironically enough, > part of that human NATURE is a tendency to be arrogant and elitist. > > Anyway... > > Jon Sure. But "nature" is also used sort of like "gentile", meaning everything that isn't "man". As "animal" is sometimes used to mean "all animals except man", or "ape" as "all apes except man". These are useful definitions, as long as we're clear on their meanings. The study of "nature", is pretty much the study of everything. That's meaningless. A naturalist isn't interested in humans except for our impact on the rest of nature. Going off on a bit of a tangent are a couple of similar observations: A woman says "Why do all men act like boys instead of men?". Obviously that's how men act. Mr. Spock is always astonished when humans act like humans. I'm rational enough to not be astonished when dogs act like dogs. Why isn't he rational enough to expect the obvious? I haven't seen Dragons be surprised when Dzur act like Dzur. But that can be misleading. A member of a more devious race might be better at disguising his behavior - and the races might not be as homogenious as they think. I bet Dragaerans are subject to being fooled by stereotypes more even than we are. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 26 10:14:01 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) In-Reply-To: References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: @> Writers need to be diciplined. You know, that's true. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 05:13:31 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:13:31 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 08:56, J C wrote: > Gah. If there's one thing that gets me going, it's humans insisting to > various degrees (you actually aren't so bad) that they are separate from > nature. > Of course Man is separate from nature. A brown bear is separate from nature. A giant redwood tree is separate from nature. A single-cell amoeba is separate from nature. A Romanian is separate from nature. Each element of nature exists both within and separate from it. > Man's conflict with "himself" is the SAME THING as man's conflict with > nature. No, it is a special case of Man's conflict with nature. In order to survive as a species, human beings, who are born premature, must form societies for mutual protection from nature, and to wrest from nature the means of survival. These societies grow, interact, and develop, and, in doing so, form social classes, which, in turn conflict with each other. In some cases, whole societies come into conflict. Once Man has achieved a sufficient level of culture (ie, technology) so that conflict with nature is no longer pressing (or, to be precise, when we can produce plenty for everyone) the opportunity exists for several things to happen: An end to class conflict; an end to conflict between societies, and discussions of how we're really part of nature and shouldn't consider ourselves in conflict with it. Recommended reading: _Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State_ by Frederich Engels. > Nature is the one thing that we all belief we're separate from, or "above". > But guess what, we're not. We act according to human NATURE. This is playing with words. The word "nature" as in "human nature" is closely related but not identical to "nature." The term "nature" refers, specifically, to that which exists independent of Man. There is a reason we needed to invent that word. Oh, and, by the way, I keep hearing about "human nature" but the only precise descriptions of it I've ever heard of involve characteristics that are clearly based on and learned from a given society, or culture. Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Oct 26 10:16:32 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:16:32 -0400 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <417E8670.2020005@email.ers.usda.gov> J C wrote: > Man's conflict with "himself" is the SAME THING as man's conflict with > nature. > 'Fraid not. Lessee--what were those 4 conflicts we learned about in 8th grade lit? Man against self, man against man, man against nature, man against god. Think that's it. > Nature is the one thing that we all belief we're separate from, or > "above". But guess what, we're not. We act according to human > NATURE. We cannot avoid acting according to human NATURE. Ironically > enough, part of that human NATURE is a tendency to be arrogant and > elitist. > Nature in the sense of "some property habitually pertaining to the object under discussion" is not at all the same thing as nature in the sense of "the unimproved ecosystem & everything in it." Snarkhunter From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 26 10:19:02 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, J C wrote: @> Nature is the one thing that we all belief we're separate from, or "above". @> But guess what, we're not. We act according to human NATURE. We cannot @> avoid acting according to human NATURE. Ironically enough, part of that @> human NATURE is a tendency to be arrogant and elitist. The sense in which the word 'Nature' is being used here (by, I think, all involved parties) is explicitly: A primitive state of existence, untouched and uninfluences by civilization or artificiality. That isn't an argument that civilization is unnatural, it's just a word being used to describe a state of being without civilization. It's just kind of unfortunate that we don't have more words to play with here. (Speaking of which, what you've got there is an equivocation: the word nature in 'human nature' doesn't mean the same thing as the word nature in 'get back to nature'. Arguing on that basis is a fallacy.) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Oct 26 10:26:03 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture (was Architecture...) Message-ID: <200410261726.i9QHQ3RM011650@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Mr Brust said: > Once Man has achieved a sufficient level of culture (ie, technology) so > that conflict with nature is no longer pressing (or, to be precise, when > we can produce plenty for everyone) the opportunity exists for several > things to happen: An end to class conflict; an end to conflict between > societies, and discussions of how we're really part of nature and > shouldn't consider ourselves in conflict with it. Of course, the opportunity existing doesn't mean it will come into existence. I guess one out of three isn't *too* bad, but couldn't we choose one of the others? > Recommended reading: _Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the > State_ by Frederich Engels. Oh, sure. Add another to my list. > Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" So many wise-arse comments. Must...bite...tongue... Heh, Chris "It's tough for fetishists to be Marxists, since many of us like our chains." ~David Alt From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 26 10:35:10 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: @> Oh, and, by the way, I keep hearing about "human nature" but the only @> precise descriptions of it I've ever heard of involve characteristics @> that are clearly based on and learned from a given society, or culture. @> Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" Theoretically, human nature should be any unalterable characteristics that a thing must have to /be/ a human in the first place. Which definition, unfortunately, is going to vary from person to person. There are problems of exclusion, for instance: Are amputees inhuman because they don't have two arms and legs? Are suicidal people inhuman because they do not possess the instinct to survive? Are deliberately or inadvertently childless people human because they lack the desire or ability to continue the species? Are mentally handicapped people inhuman because they lack certain higher brain functions? Are people with severe brain damage inhuman because they lack /all/ higher brain functions? At some point you will start saying yes to these questions, but there is no widespread agreement as to where that point is. Further, there are problems of inclusion: if you're basing it on genetic structure alone, is a severed arm a human? If you're basing it on human components, would something with an artificial brain but a human body be human? If you're basing it on survival instincts, is anything with any DNA human? At some point you start saying no to these, but unfortunately that isn't clearly defined either. There are a few things which are probably necessary but not sufficient: a certain genetic structure, a tendency to fit oneself into social structures in one way or another, the need to eat, digest, and excrete. Now to the opinion part: In the common use? "Human nature" is shorthand for "people are horrible bastards". It doesn't have anything to do with the actual nature of a human; it's just another unfortunate turn of phrase, and one which is frequently used in attempts to justify unjustifiable behavior at that. What people usually mean here is: "What do people behave like if you remove them from their social structure?" Which is a bizarre question, because social structures are as much a part of being human as being made out of certain chemicals is. What you get when you take society away isn't actually a human being anymore. It's also a useless question, since if our various societies are actually destroyed we won't be worrying about this kind of thing. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 10:36:05 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > [...] > Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" Everything evolved has the instinct to survive. Instead (as a start) I'd nominate the instinct to learn and use language. From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 26 11:07:30 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:07:30 -0600 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart wrote: > Everything evolved has the instinct to survive. Instead (as a start) > I'd nominate the instinct to learn and use language. I've never heard the word used that way, except this is one of the many instincts that humans share with some other animals. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 06:09:39 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:09:39 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1098796179.2361.65.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 10:35, John Klein wrote: > What people usually mean here is: "What do > people behave like if you remove them from their social structure?" Which > is a bizarre question, because social structures are as much a part of > being human as being made out of certain chemicals is. Very nicely put. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Oct 26 11:14:08 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:14:08 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <417E8670.2020005@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Nature in the sense of "some property habitually pertaining to the > object under discussion" is not at all the same thing as > nature in the > sense of "the unimproved ecosystem & everything in it." Yes, but the point that some people are making here (that I happen to agree with) is that there is essentially no such a thing as "the unimproved ecosystem". Humankind is a part of the ecosystem as surely as the rats, bats, and pelicans. ALL creatures modify the environment in some fashion. Men simply do it on a grander scale than others. You can't exclude men from "nature" and still talk about it in any realistic sense. The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something special is equally laughable. Dinosaurs and their ilk were the dominant species on this planet for millions of years. Meanwhile, the recorded history of human civilization is only a few thousand years. A blink of an eye on the planetary scale. If we pollute the planet and kill 90% of known life, it will be no different than any of the other three or four mass extinctions that did the same thing. In fact, you can make an argument that mass extinction is REQUIRED in order for life to evolve to a new level. The periods following the previous mass extinctions were periods that literally exploded with new variations seeking to fill the now empty niches left by their predecessors. The only way to realistically discuss nature is to recognize that it includes us and all of our works. Drawing a line between "wild" and "civilized" areas and claiming that one is "nature" and the other is not is as fallacious as doing a survey of the pleistocene area and dividing "pristine" forests and dinosaur-infested forests into "wild" and "civilized" areas respectively. Both areas are eco-systems. They're simply inhabited by different creatures with their respective effects upon the environment. Is a bush man tribe living their lives "natural"? If so, why? I'd sumbit that it's only because of their low numbers. If they found a way to better thrive in the harsh environments they live in, they'd spread and eventually assume dominance over the continent. At what point would they become "unnatural"? The natural history of the world is a history of one type of creature becoming dominant over most of the others. Frankly, there couldn't be anything more "natural" than the conversion of the entire planet into homes for men. If that event destroyed most of the eco-systems on the planet, destroying men in the process, it would simply be yet another mass extinction that would pave the way for whatever new life evolved from the surviving lifeforms. Horrible, yes. Unnatural, not at all. Sure, define "nature" as "everything not built by men" if it makes it easier to talk about the parts of the eco-system that you want to talk about. Just keep in mind that nothing is really "wild" any more. Man's influence reaches into every part of the world and most of the "wild" areas that remain exist only because men decided there was a benefit to be had from protecting them. The idea that you can have "nature" without men is an illusion at best. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 11:28:35 2004 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:28:35 +0000 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upontheSun, the Moon Message-ID: Msg sent to Steve accidentally, now fwded to list. On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:05, J C wrote: > >Oh, and, by the way, I keep hearing about "human nature" but the only > >precise descriptions of it I've ever heard of involve characteristics > >that are clearly based on and learned from a given society, or culture. > >Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" > > Human nature is, beyond the instinct to survive, the instinct (or recognized > need) to form social groups, and hierarchies of power within those groups, > as well as to progress oneself along whatever path one chooses for oneself, > ie spiritual, intellectual, whatever. (if one has such luxury). Human > nature is also to strive to find a place within the societal group. Most > people, however, don't wish to be, though there are a great many who are > perfectly fine with being, followers, or to be perceived as "expendable" or > "commonplace". Some are more qualified than others to lead, but those > others who are discarded still need to lead, so they either splinter from > the society or work against the existing power structure that has "betrayed" > them from within. Seldomly do they cooperate with the system that says > they're not good enough to be top dog, I think, and accept their place as > "middle management". > > Human nature, then, is fiercely individualistic while at the same time > communal out of necessity, leading to man's conflict not only with himself > but with others of his species, in addition to being in conflict with his > ENVIRONMENT, which is different that being in conflict with nature/his > nature. > > This is obviously a very male-oriented standpoint. I would look with > interest on a feminine counterpart. The best I can come up on my own, as a > male, would be that females place more emphasis than males on community. > (not necessarily supplanting individuality in importance, but nevertheless, > I would imagine that community matters more to women) Males have been shown > to be acutely aware of their hierarchical position, whether they're happy > with it or not. I can't remember what the study that came up with these > findings said about females > > Jon > > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 11:32:32 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart > wrote: > > > Everything evolved has the instinct to survive. Instead (as a start) > > I'd nominate the instinct to learn and use language. > > I've never heard the word used that way, except this is one of the many > instincts that humans share with some other animals. Which word? If "instinct", I'm referring to the (afaik) dominant school of thought in linguistics which holds that our incredible language acquisition skill as children is driven by preprogrammed traits which are primed by experience (aka "instincts"). Not to pooh-pooh the rest of the animal kingdom, but humans are qualitatively different. A group of children hearing an ungrammatical mess from parents speaking pidgin will develop a full-scale language of exquisite expressivity. That, and the emotional traits we inherited from our simian forebears and developed on the savannas etc, are what I'd call "human nature". From warbi at warbi.net Tue Oct 26 11:33:31 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:33:31 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <011101c4bb8a$4c204240$c848b041@warbi> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: RE: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & If we pollute the planet and kill 90% of known life, it will be no different than any of the other three or four mass extinctions that did the same thing. In fact, you can make an argument that mass extinction is REQUIRED in order for life to evolve to a new level. The periods following the previous mass extinctions were periods that literally exploded with new variations seeking to fill the now empty niches left by their predecessors. Heh, all good points! I knew that if I lurked long enough, someone would post a response along those lines. Just wanted to comment on the mass extinction issue, since we are actually in the midst of one. Look up "Sixth Great Extinction" on Google. Pretty scary reading- iirc, 95% of all species before taking into effect global warming. warbi From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 06:36:31 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:36:31 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:14, Scott Schultz wrote: > Yes, but the point that some people are making here (that I happen to agree > with) is that there is essentially no such a thing as "the unimproved > ecosystem". Humankind is a part of the ecosystem as surely as the rats, > bats, and pelicans. ALL creatures modify the environment in some fashion. > Men simply do it on a grander scale than others. The difference is qualitative, not quantitative. No other animal creates tools to create tools. And the difference between a spider's web or a beaver's dam on the one hand and the Hoover dam on the other is significant. > You can't exclude men from > "nature" and still talk about it in any realistic sense. > Of course we can, and we do, constantly. The very reason we act to prevent development in certain areas is in order experience aspects of nature. Individuals who climb mountains are doing the same thing. That both of these places have in certain ways been changed by the existence of man on the planet may be true, but isn't terribly important for the purposes of this discussion. > The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and > everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something special > is equally laughable. I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. > Dinosaurs and their ilk were the dominant species on > this planet for millions of years. Meanwhile, the recorded history of human > civilization is only a few thousand years. A blink of an eye on the > planetary scale. > Certainly. But I'm not a planet. For that matter, I'm not a dinosaur. (My bird, however, is closely related to dinosaurs, and this may explain a great deal of his attitude toward me.) > > The only way to realistically discuss nature is to recognize that it > includes us and all of our works. Hmmm. That's rather interesting, given that including us and all our works effectively prevents us from discussing nature. > Drawing a line between "wild" and > "civilized" areas and claiming that one is "nature" and the other is not is > as fallacious as doing a survey of the pleistocene area and dividing > "pristine" forests and dinosaur-infested forests into "wild" and "civilized" > areas respectively. Well, you see, if the dinosaurs had consciously and deliberately changed their environment, then, to them, making such a distinction would not only be reasonable, but probably a necessary part of deciding how to consciously and deliberately change their environment. > Both areas are eco-systems. They're simply inhabited by > different creatures with their respective effects upon the environment. By this logic, there is no point in distinguishing between human writing and accidental marks on the beach caused by the waves. On some level, these two things ARE the same. But if we actually want to communicate with each other, it becomes necessary to make that distinction. Similarly, the more we wish to consciously and deliberately shape our environment, the more important it is keep in mind that which is *natural* in our world--ie, what the world has given Man as material to work with, and what we can *create* with our minds, our tools, and our will. > Is a > bush man tribe living their lives "natural"? If so, why? No, it is not natural. It is a culture, as distinct from natural. It is a low level of culture, as determined by such factors as life-expectancy and infant mortality rate, but it is certainly a human culture. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Oct 26 11:49:23 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:49:23 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <00a201c4bb8c$8300f4b0$7000a8c0@Soltan> > Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" We can view human nature as either some kind of observable behavior or predictable behavior, or as some kind of design (not necessarily deliberate, so no one assume I'm a deist). On the behavioral side, you have things like survival instinct, nurturing young, eating, excreting, sex; all things that can be reliably predicted of human beings or observed in them throughout their lives. Most of these, I think, lack any kind of explicitly "human" descriptors. In these respects human nature is just nature nature. Where humans get interesting, I think, is on the design side, and how that design contributes to behavior in a way that is human, even though the behaviors themselves might fail to pass any kind of exclusivity test. It's not simply a matter of saying "humans are more intelligent than other creatures", since that statement wolud provide a characteristic without providing any behavioral consequences. Nor is it interesting to say "humans have unique DNA", since that does not give us any behavioral consequences either. The way humans are designed (which just means "most consistently structured" as I'm using it) is to have way way way more neurons than anything other thing. I've had it described as the approximately the number of pixels you would get if you covered the Two Towers (WTC) with television screens. Well, so what? Isn't that just another way of saying "humans are smarter"? Isn't that uninterstingly vague and lacking in behavioral descriptions? No. All human behavior is an output of a process that starts with some input (sensory stimulus or mental stimulus) that activates neurons in some pattern, which pattern then produces an output pattern. So, an input pattern on the optic cells (say, the "sight" of a chair) produces a complicated neuronal pattern that eventually leads to output patterns (like "I can sit in the chair", or even other, non-normative outputs like "there's a chair"). The difference in the number of neurons between human beings and other things means there is an exponential difference in the number of "patterns" the human brain can be trained to activate given certain stimuli, which means that there is an increased number of output options available to the human brain as well ("trained" is a loose term that can be used to describe a lot of techniques for "tuning" the neuronal pathways to produce certain patterns rather than others). Human nature, then, is to be exponentially more varied, and more potentially unpredictable, than any other creature (with fewer neurons; so I guess I can't exclude Dragaerans, or Serioli, or Jenoine, since I don't know how many neurons they have by comparision). Society contributes a lot of inputs, and contributes to the training of the network, so that human beings acquire regular behaviors that are observable and predictable, but it is the design of the brain that allows that training to happen. Given other inputs, humans could behave completely differently than we can imagine, and with more possibility of variety than creatures with fewer neurons and so fewer possible patterns of neuronal response to stimuli. Human nature is possibility. Other kinds of nature are possibility too, but humans are *more* possibility. :} Shawn From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Oct 26 12:01:41 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:01:41 -0400 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <417E9F15.9050206@email.ers.usda.gov> Forwarded on behalf of JC. J C wrote: >> Man's conflict with "himself" is the SAME THING as man's conflict >> with nature. >> >> 'Fraid not. Lessee--what were those 4 conflicts we learned about in >> 8th grade lit? Man against self, >man against man, man against >> nature, man against god. Think that's it. > > > I can make a solid (but by nature not a proof) that man's struggle > against God is simply man's struggle against his own psychological > demons. But to do so would require much more text than any of us > would like to read in one single email. > > In short, it is my belief that man has created the god that is most > expedient and convenient for him when it comes to dealing with things > that are outside of man's realm of power. This does not say that God > does not exist, merely that our definition of him is a product of our > fears and insecurities, and indeed, our extreme aversion to facing > reality head on. > > The god we worship is a well-disguised scapegoat. Impotent like any > scapegoat, and ultimately worthless and inhibitive to the true growth > of those that use It/Him/Her/Whatever. > > So that's man vs man, man vs other man and man vs environment, which I > mentioned in an email I accidentally mailed only to Steve. > > And yes, I acknowledge that I engaged in wordplay, and that the uses > of nature are more varied than I allowed. > My reply is that willy nilhi, this doesn't show that man's conflict with himself is the same thing as man's conflict with nature, and for that matter than man's conflict with god is the same thing as man's conflict with nature. Someone wanted to claim that there would be no difference between an extinction event caused by man and one caused by an asteroid; there is a great difference. The asteroid does not choose its path, nor can it change it; man--or men, or Man--can. Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Oct 26 12:09:35 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:09:35 -0400 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <417EA0EF.6060802@email.ers.usda.gov> Steve Brust wrote: >Once Man has achieved a sufficient level of culture (ie, technology) so >that conflict with nature is no longer pressing (or, to be precise, when >we can produce plenty for everyone) the opportunity exists for several >things to happen: An end to class conflict; an end to conflict between >societies, and discussions of how we're really part of nature and >shouldn't consider ourselves in conflict with it. > >Recommended reading: _Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the >State_ by Frederich Engels. > > Yes, this has interested me for some time. While I do not believe with Marx that all is economics, clearly it shapes our ends more strongly than many other things one might name. Banks' Culture, Stephenson's =The Diamond Age=, & a few other works touch on this, but I don't think SF as a whole has explored thoroughly how society might organize itself if material scarcity disappeared, by means of a Universal Pantograph, let us say. (With apologies to Panshin.) Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 12:11:02 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: SKZB's comment on dinosaurs reminded me of a point I wanted to raise: jhereg are smart and have two legs and two wings and sit on shoulders, and are surely in some sense derived from parrots. Does anyone have a collection of jhereg traits which are parrot-like? AFB but I have a vague memory of Savn seeing Loiosh and Rocza bobbing their heads at him in apparent laughter, which matches a vague impression I have of parrot behavior. Ditto the ending of _J_. I don't know anything about parrot ears and if they like to be scratched around that area. Anyway, it's something to consider when interpreting things L&R do. From warbi at warbi.net Tue Oct 26 12:16:50 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:16:50 -0700 Subject: parrots References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <014701c4bb90$593fba90$c848b041@warbi> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: parrots > SKZB's comment on dinosaurs reminded me of a point I wanted to raise: > jhereg are smart and have two legs and two wings and sit on shoulders, > and are surely in some sense derived from parrots. Does anyone have a > collection of jhereg traits which are parrot-like? AFB but I have a > vague memory of Savn seeing Loiosh and Rocza bobbing their heads at him > in apparent laughter, which matches a vague impression I have of parrot > behavior. Ditto the ending of _J_. I don't know anything about parrot > ears and if they like to be scratched around that area. Anyway, it's > something to consider when interpreting things L&R do. > > > Yeah, all of our parrots bob their heads when they are excited or happy. They also like to see how much they can get away with- like Loiosh. warbi From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Oct 26 12:19:25 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:19:25 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <09cb01c4bb90$b4cf8480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > The difference is qualitative, not quantitative. No other > animal creates tools to create tools. And the difference > between a spider's web or a beaver's dam on the one hand and > the Hoover dam on the other is significant. That's an interesting distinction to make, but it's not really any different than saying that "dinosaurs were the only animals in the eco-system that grew to such massive size". It's simply the trait that makes us the dominant species. > Hmmm. That's rather interesting, given that including us and all our > works effectively prevents us from discussing nature. As long as you define nature to mean "wild" parts of the planet then I suppose that's true. I'll certainly grant that definition works fine for certain discussions. Too many people think it's the only definition available which is why I get a little wordy on the subject. *heh* The world itself is a huge system and pretending that we can somehow model the system without including ourselves in the model is simply wrong, IMO. "Nature" is the result of all of the creatures and plants living their lives and doing their things. That includes us. > But if we actually want to communicate > with each other, it becomes necessary to make that distinction. > Similarly, the more we wish to consciously and deliberately shape our > environment, the more important it is keep in mind that which is > *natural* in our world--ie, what the world has given Man as > material to > work with, and what we can *create* with our minds, our tools, and our > will. That's actually a pretty elegant definition of what most people think of as "nature". I like it. I just wish that there was another word to describe Nature, as in the world that includes both "man" and "nature". From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 07:19:47 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:19:47 -0700 Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 12:11, Philip Hart wrote: > AFB but I have a > vague memory of Savn seeing Loiosh and Rocza bobbing their heads at him > in apparent laughter, which matches a vague impression I have of parrot > behavior. Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but it isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, threatening regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot actually throws up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love you." I have rarely felt sillier then when I got all choked up because my bird threw up on me. > Ditto the ending of _J_. I don't know anything about parrot > ears and if they like to be scratched around that area. Nope. Oddly enough, Doc likes having the feathers under his eyes preened and played with, but he, and most parrots, are very sensitive about the ears. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Oct 26 12:22:08 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:22:08 -0400 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & the Stars.) In-Reply-To: References: <417C7BC9.1010802@juima.org> <1098664165.2368.217.camel@localhost> <1098774843.2361.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <417EA3E0.1080700@email.ers.usda.gov> Howard Brazee wrote: > It is awfully fun to look at a concept from a different POV. The > whole concept of culture being the opposite of nature is worth > exploring - especially with our newfound appreciation of nature. > Historically nature hasn't been appreciated much - The Grand Canyon > was described as an obstacle. Things that isolated us from nature > were valued. > This depends rather strongly on which historical period you refer to. There is a strong Classical pastoral tradition, and there is an equally strong movement from the 18th century on, especially after Rousseau, that delights in appreciating nature. Heck, you can't even imagine Romanticism without it. Things get so intense that you have people making their living creating "natural" gardens for the well to do (as opposed to the geometric ones of the 17th century). Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? While this reaction isn't the same as the 20th century back-to-the-great-outdoors (or maybe it is, but bear with me), it surely is not a characterization of nature as an obstacle, or a depreciation of it. Snarkhunter From warbi at warbi.net Tue Oct 26 12:41:28 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:41:28 -0700 Subject: Fw: parrots Message-ID: <015a01c4bb93$ca1e8180$c848b041@warbi> > Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but it > isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, threatening > regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot actually throws > up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love you." > > I have rarely felt sillier then when I got all choked up because my bird > threw up on me. LMAO. My Orange-bellied Senegal does that. He's pair-bonded to me and will let my wife scratch him for a while and then try to bite her! lol > Nope. Oddly enough, Doc likes having the feathers under his eyes > preened and played with, but he, and most parrots, are very sensitive > about the ears. > Mine seems to like it wherever he has pin feathers. Head, chin, ears, neck. warbi From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 12:42:44 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <09cb01c4bb90$b4cf8480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <09cb01c4bb90$b4cf8480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: > > The difference is qualitative, not quantitative. No other > > animal creates tools to create tools. And the difference > > between a spider's web or a beaver's dam on the one hand and > > the Hoover dam on the other is significant. > > That's an interesting distinction to make, but it's not really any different > than saying that "dinosaurs were the only animals in the eco-system that > grew to such massive size". It's simply the trait that makes us the dominant > species. One might argue that there is a sort of phase transition which occurs when enough computing power is assembled (with appropriate code). In fact, physicists have discussed measuring neural activity in infants in order to look for such a phase change associated with consciousness. Anyway, the point is that sometimes variation in a trait can have enormous non-linear consequences. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 12:53:44 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 12:11, Philip Hart wrote: > > I don't know anything about parrot ears and if they like to be > > scratched around that area. > > Nope. Oddly enough, Doc likes having the feathers under his eyes > preened and played with, but he, and most parrots, are very sensitive > about the ears. Hmm, I guess that works for and against my thesis wrt the scene in _Issola_ (?) where L lets Sethra scratch him in that region. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Oct 26 13:08:24 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: @> Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but it @> isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, threatening @> regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot actually throws @> up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love you." @> @> I have rarely felt sillier then when I got all choked up because my bird @> threw up on me. Hmm. Interesting. What does it mean when they crap on you? From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 26 13:23:16 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:23:16 -0600 Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:19:47 -0700, Steve Brust wrote: > Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but it > isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, threatening > regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot actually throws > up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love you." > I have rarely felt sillier then when I got all choked up because my bird > threw up on me. I have a cockateel. She will often stick her whole head in my mouth for food or even my natural water. Right now she has eggs. When she is ready to lay eggs she changes from little dry droppings to huge wet droppings. She doesn't come out much now, preferring to roost, but when she does, I really have to clean up some bad messes from my clothes. I'll be glad when she gives up. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 26 14:40:45 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:40:45 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> (Steve Brust's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:36:31 -0700") References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Steve Brust writes: > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:14, Scott Schultz wrote: >> The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and >> everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something special >> is equally laughable. > > I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except > that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 15:32:47 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:32:47 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> <417EA0EF.6060802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & > Steve Brust wrote: > > >Once Man has achieved a sufficient level of culture (ie, technology) so > >that conflict with nature is no longer pressing (or, to be precise, when > >we can produce plenty for everyone) the opportunity exists for several > >things to happen: An end to class conflict; an end to conflict between > >societies, and discussions of how we're really part of nature and > >shouldn't consider ourselves in conflict with it. > > > >Recommended reading: _Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the > >State_ by Frederich Engels. > > > > > Yes, this has interested me for some time. While I do not believe with > Marx that all is economics, clearly it shapes our ends more strongly > than many other things one might name. Banks' Culture, Stephenson's > =The Diamond Age=, & a few other works touch on this, but I don't think > SF as a whole has explored thoroughly how society might organize itself > if material scarcity disappeared, by means of a Universal Pantograph, > let us say. (With apologies to Panshin.) > > Snarkhunter Heinlen touches on this in Time Enough for Love and some of his other novels involving the life of Woodrow Wilson Smith. Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 15:39:14 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:14 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew><1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & > Steve Brust writes: > > > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:14, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >> The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and > >> everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something special > >> is equally laughable. > > > > I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except > > that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. > > I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion > eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet Nope, as we eat them too. Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat man without being sick, starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what that creature is? (Hint: it's a mammal) Jeff G. From bonham15 at cox.net Tue Oct 26 18:09:44 2004 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:09:44 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew><1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <000b01c4bbc1$a5938fd0$44600d44@user79dn2jmjai> > > Nope, as we eat them too. Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat > man without being sick, starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what > that creature is? (Hint: it's a mammal) > > Jeff G. other men generally can and have done this.. but hey i hail from the midwest, breeding better serial killers for over 100 years! andy From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 26 18:20:05 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:20:05 -0600 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4bbc3$17f7d030$667ba8c0@Dad133> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Steve Brust writes: > >> I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, >> except that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather >> like. > > I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion > eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. How about the virus? From cparkes at actewagl.net.au Tue Oct 26 18:27:08 2004 From: cparkes at actewagl.net.au (Carl Parkes) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:27:08 +1000 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew><1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <00b301c4bbc4$63ad4360$234593ca@CarlXP> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & > Steve Brust writes: > >> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:14, Scott Schultz wrote: > >>> The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and >>> everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something >>> special >>> is equally laughable. >> >> I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except >> that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. > > I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion > eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. More like the centre of the food "net" {a much better metaphor for the complexity of the web of the ecosystem} Man has the ability but not the wisdom to restructure this web at will. Man partitions his reality for understanding, survival, action,etc, this skill is a core characteristic of "human nature". The dichotomies of this tool, produces the paradoxes of human nature {in individual and group cases}. God/gods/devils/spirits are an artefact of partitioning, any thing that 'cannot/is not' understood is in the realm of god. god realms are useful to solve/understand things {this is the principal of algebra}, Remapping of this is what the "Cultural" tool Science does, as more principals of Nature{reality} are understood. Other mappings produce different "Cultures" . The test of "Cultures" is survival {at the indervidual, group and socity leveles}. The ultimate test is of course the survival of humanity. {my egocentic view} > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Pics: > > Dragaera/Steven Brust: > Culture == a set of tool and techniques which can be passed on. Man == all humans Hi all I have been reading this list for about a month. Read Bust books when that come out, they quickly became some of my favourites. Problem they are not widely published/distributed here in Australia (Canberra) Carl http://cparkes.actewagl.net.au/ From mam at TheWorld.com Tue Oct 26 18:23:03 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:23:03 -0400 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: #On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: # #> The American Heritage dictionary says: 1. The cultivation of the soil; #> [...] # #How about the cultivation of the soil of human minds by memes? You have a dirty mind!... I like that in a person. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Oct 26 19:59:27 2004 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:59:27 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <000001c4bbc3$17f7d030$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000001c4bbc3$17f7d030$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20041027025926.GF14175@Durandal> On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 07:20:05PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion > > eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. > > How about the virus? Viruses are not classified as living organisms - they do not grow, they do not consume food, they are not made of one or more cells, they don't even have cell parts, and they don't respond to their environment. This would indicate they cannot be a part of the food chain, and are outside of it in the same way that a forest fire is outside of it. Kat From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 26 21:06:03 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:06:03 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: (Log0n5150@hotmail.com's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:14 -0700") References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: "Jeff" writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Dyer-Bennet" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, > the Moon & > > >> Steve Brust writes: >> >> > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:14, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >> >> The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and >> >> everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something > special >> >> is equally laughable. >> > >> > I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except >> > that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. >> >> I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion >> eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. > Nope, as we eat them too. Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat > man without being sick, starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what > that creature is? (Hint: it's a mammal) The tick, obviously. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 26 21:06:30 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:06:30 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <20041027025926.GF14175@Durandal> (tsarren@alyra.org's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:59:27 -0500") References: <000001c4bbc3$17f7d030$667ba8c0@Dad133> <20041027025926.GF14175@Durandal> Message-ID: Tsarren writes: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 07:20:05PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> > >> > I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion >> > eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. >> >> How about the virus? > > > Viruses are not classified as living organisms - they do not grow, they do > not consume food, they are not made of one or more cells, they don't even > have cell parts, and they don't respond to their environment. This would > indicate they cannot be a part of the food chain, and are outside of it in > the same way that a forest fire is outside of it. However, the fungus do look good for this too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Oct 26 21:25:11 2004 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:25:11 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: References: <000001c4bbc3$17f7d030$667ba8c0@Dad133> <20041027025926.GF14175@Durandal> Message-ID: <20041027042511.GG14175@Durandal> On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 11:06:30PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Tsarren writes: > > > Viruses are not classified as living organisms - they do not grow, they do > > not consume food, they are not made of one or more cells, they don't even > > have cell parts, and they don't respond to their environment. This would > > indicate they cannot be a part of the food chain, and are outside of it in > > the same way that a forest fire is outside of it. > > However, the fungus do look good for this too. While actually part of the food web, fungi are classified as 'decomposers' (the other two being producers [plants] and consumers [things that eat producers, decomposers, and other consumers]). It's all a big circle, and in an attempt to find the 'top' people are following the circle beyond the consumers. I think people are looking for predators that are not also prey to another consumer when they want to find things 'at the top of the food chain.' Kat From dragaera at juima.org Tue Oct 26 21:33:51 2004 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:33:51 +1000 Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <417F252F.7070903@juima.org> Steve Brust wrote: >> Ditto the ending of _J_. I don't know anything about parrot >>ears and if they like to be scratched around that area. > > Nope. Oddly enough, Doc likes having the feathers under his eyes > preened and played with, but he, and most parrots, are very sensitive > about the ears. Weird, Falko (our parrot, same kind as Doc, except for having a grey beak, so slightly different subspecies) absolute loves to be scratched around his ears. Sander - who is always amazed at the power of threads to spin off into the weirdest directions. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 26 21:52:38 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:52:38 EDT Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon Message-ID: <59.18fe171d.2eb08396@aol.com> Steve Brust wrote on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:36:31 -0700 >I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except >that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. In Response Jeff wrote on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:14 -0700 >>Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat man without being sick, >>starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what that creature is? (Hint: >>it's a mammal) Heh, where did the n in Steven go? I will guess the mountain lion or the tiger (dzur). Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 26 22:08:55 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:08:55 EDT Subject: New/old crack... Message-ID: <6.36947b21.2eb08767@aol.com> Jot Powers wrote on Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:12:19 -0700 >On page 83 of my paperback copy of Teckla, Vlad says he's >seen Spellbreaker dangling in mid-air once, when he got >it, from under Dzur Mountain. >This is clearly a case where Steven changed the story >for Taltos, when he gets Spellbreaker from Loraan's keep, >dangling in mid-air. Hi, I still cannot find my paperback copy of Teckla, but this is the text from The Book of Jhereg, Teckla page 380 last page of Chapter 6. Vlad thinking: "The trick of hanging in midair it had been doing when I had first found it, but that had been under Dzur Mountain, where strange things are normal. Or was it in the Paths of the Dead? I couldn't remember any more." Jot, is this text different in the Teckla paperback? Bye. Linda G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Oct 26 22:39:49 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon In-Reply-To: <59.18fe171d.2eb08396@aol.com> References: <59.18fe171d.2eb08396@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Jeff wrote on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:14 -0700 > > >>Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat man without being sick, > >>starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what that creature is? (Hint: > >>it's a mammal) > > Heh, where did the n in Steven go? > > I will guess the mountain lion or the tiger (dzur). We have mountain lions in Palo Alto, but they don't try to eat us outside of unusual circumstances. I'm guessing polar bears. I take it crocodiles aren't land animals or don't really hunt. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Oct 26 22:46:31 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:46:31 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon References: <59.18fe171d.2eb08396@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201c4bbe8$4f896e30$7000a8c0@Soltan> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> Jeff wrote on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:14 -0700 >> >> >>Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat man without being sick, >> >>starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what that creature is? >> >>(Hint: >> >>it's a mammal) >> >> Heh, where did the n in Steven go? >> >> I will guess the mountain lion or the tiger (dzur). > > We have mountain lions in Palo Alto, but they don't try to eat us outside > of unusual circumstances. I'm guessing polar bears. I take it crocodiles > aren't land animals or don't really hunt. > Are these responses intended as ironic? I thought the answer was "human beings"... Shawn From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 20:35:24 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:35:24 -0700 Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1098848124.2361.113.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 13:08, John Klein wrote: > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > > @> Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but it > @> isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, threatening > @> regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot actually throws > @> up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love you." > @> > @> I have rarely felt sillier then when I got all choked up because my bird > @> threw up on me. > > Hmm. Interesting. What does it mean when they crap on you? > It means your effort to housebreak the bird isn't complete. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 26 20:51:48 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:51:48 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <09cb01c4bb90$b4cf8480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <09cb01c4bb90$b4cf8480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <1098849108.2361.122.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 12:19, Scott Schultz wrote: > That's actually a pretty elegant definition of what most people think of as > "nature". I like it. I just wish that there was another word to describe > Nature, as in the world that includes both "man" and "nature". > I use"material reality" to mean that. From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 27 04:56:43 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:56:43 -0600 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <20041027025926.GF14175@Durandal> Message-ID: <000601c4bc1c$07c16ec0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Tsarren wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 07:20:05PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >>> >>> I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion >>> eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. >> >> How about the virus? > > > Viruses are not classified as living organisms - they do not grow, > they do not consume food, they are not made of one or more cells, > they don't even have cell parts, and they don't respond to their > environment. This would indicate they cannot be a part of the food > chain, and are outside of it in the same way that a forest fire is > outside of it. > > Kat Depends upon who's doing the classification. But let's move to a less controversial form, the bacteria. From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 27 04:59:11 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:59:11 -0600 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon In-Reply-To: <59.18fe171d.2eb08396@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c4bc1c$5f89d070$667ba8c0@Dad133> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Steve Brust wrote on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:36:31 -0700 > >> I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, >> except that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather >> like. > > In Response Jeff wrote on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:39:14 -0700 > >>> Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat man without being >>> sick, starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what that >>> creature is? (Hint: it's a mammal) > > Heh, where did the n in Steven go? > > I will guess the mountain lion or the tiger (dzur). > > Bye. > > Linda G. The most fearless big predator may be the polar bear. But it is more fun to come up with small predators such as bacteria or fleas. From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Wed Oct 27 06:14:37 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:14:37 -0400 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & Message-ID: Bengal Tiger will hunt and kill humans The tiger attacks a variety of prey, mainly deer, antelopes, pigs and buffalo. Once in awhile, it will attack cattle and even humans taken from this site http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3785/bengaltiger.html -----Original Message----- From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:57 AM To: 'Tsarren'; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & Tsarren wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 07:20:05PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >>> >>> I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion >>> eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. >> >> How about the virus? > > > Viruses are not classified as living organisms - they do not grow, > they do not consume food, they are not made of one or more cells, > they don't even have cell parts, and they don't respond to their > environment. This would indicate they cannot be a part of the food > chain, and are outside of it in the same way that a forest fire is > outside of it. > > Kat Depends upon who's doing the classification. But let's move to a less controversial form, the bacteria. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 27 07:03:11 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:03:11 -0700 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew><1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & > "Jeff" writes: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Dyer-Bennet" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:40 PM > > Subject: Re: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, > > the Moon & > > > > > >> Steve Brust writes: > >> > >> > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 11:14, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> > >> >> The idea that we're somehow "above" Nature (i.e. the ecosystem and > >> >> everything in it) is laughable. Heck, the idea that we're something > > special > >> >> is equally laughable. > >> > > >> > I'm not certain how above, below, or to the side fits into this, except > >> > that we ARE at the top of the food chain; a position I rather like. > >> > >> I'd have thought the *top* of the food chain would be the carrion > >> eaters. Or at least the obligate carnivores. > > > Nope, as we eat them too. Only one land animal will actively hunt and eat > > man without being sick, starving or otherwise affected. Care to guess what > > that creature is? (Hint: it's a mammal) > > The tick, obviously. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet Spoon!!! Heh. Actually, I was refering to the Polar Bear. Jeff From books at bofh.com Wed Oct 27 07:40:44 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:40:44 -0700 Subject: New/old crack... In-Reply-To: <6.36947b21.2eb08767@aol.com> References: <6.36947b21.2eb08767@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041027144044.GA16859@bofh.com> > "The trick of hanging in midair it had been doing when > I had first found it, but that had been under Dzur > Mountain, where strange things are normal. Or was it > in the Paths of the Dead? I couldn't remember any more." I don't believe Teckla has those last 2 sentences. Or does it? I can't remember anymore. :) I'll check when I get home. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Oct 27 09:28:10 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:28:10 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: (Log0n5150@hotmail.com's message of "Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:03:11 -0700") References: <096601c4bb87$95f05070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <1098797791.2361.86.camel@localhost> Message-ID: "Jeff" writes: >> > Nope, as we eat them too. Only one land animal will actively hunt >> > and eat man without being sick, starving or otherwise >> > affected. Care to guess what that creature is? (Hint: it's a >> > mammal) >> The tick, obviously. > Spoon!!! > > Heh. Actually, I was refering to the Polar Bear. Yeah, but it's been so much fun being uncooperative! -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Oct 27 14:07:52 2004 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:07:52 -0500 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <000601c4bc1c$07c16ec0$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <20041027025926.GF14175@Durandal> <000601c4bc1c$07c16ec0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20041027210752.GM14175@Durandal> On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 05:56:43AM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > Tsarren wrote: > > Viruses are not classified as living organisms - they do not grow, > > they do not consume food, they are not made of one or more cells, > > they don't even have cell parts, and they don't respond to their > > environment. This would indicate they cannot be a part of the food > > chain, and are outside of it in the same way that a forest fire is > > outside of it. > > > > Kat > > Depends upon who's doing the classification. Um, as far as I can tell, any scientist worth their salt? Seriously. Look online, look in biology textbooks - viruses have some of the characteristics of living things and some of non-living things. They are not included in any of the five taxonomic kingdoms. > But let's move to a less > controversial form, the bacteria. Bacteria are most definately prey to other animals: "Bacteria make up a major part of the world's biomass. Bacteria are really tiny, and are very good at absorbing mineral nutrients from the environment, so they are at the bottom of just about every food chain on the planet. Usually, the next step up from bacteria in most food chains are protozoans (such as amoebae and even microscopic crustaceans), and they are the biggest eaters of bacteria. Then there's slightly bigger animals which also feed directly on bacteria. In the sea, filter-feeding animals like fan worms and shellfish can suck bacteria out of the water. There are even species of snail that float around in the water trailing big transparent nets of fine mucus, to trap bacteria and other organisms." - from http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s94124.htm Kat From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 27 15:32:11 2004 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:32:11 -0400 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon theSun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <000601c4bc1c$07c16ec0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: #Tsarren wrote: #> On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 07:20:05PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: #>> #>> How about the virus? [...] #Depends upon who's doing the classification. But let's move to a less #controversial form, the bacteria. As long as we're talking about "the virus" and "the polar bear", let's be consistent and say "the bacterium". "Bacteria" is plural. :-) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and annoys the pedant. -- Lois McMaster Bujold, _Memory_ "Attack neutral galactic shipping?" yelped Auson. "Do you want to get us all hung?" "Hanged," corrected Thorne, earning an ungrateful glare. -- Lois McMaster Bujold, _The Warrior's Apprentice_ From Bato001 at aol.com Wed Oct 27 17:51:59 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:51:59 EDT Subject: New/old crack... Message-ID: In a message dated 10/27/2004 10:38:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, books at bofh.com writes: > "The trick of hanging in midair it had been doing when > I had first found it, but that had been under Dzur > Mountain, where strange things are normal. Or was it > in the Paths of the Dead? I couldn't remember any more." I don't believe Teckla has those last 2 sentences. Or does it? I can't remember anymore. :) I'll check when I get home. -Jot I do believe that this is another example of Vlad's faulty memory. For some reason, someone or something is messing with his memories. IMHO it is not a crack or shard, Steve is a master at slipping in subtle plot lines and hints. John D. Barbato, OD From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Oct 28 07:03:49 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:03:49 EDT Subject: New/old crack... Message-ID: <1a8.2a2dae6c.2eb25645@aol.com> In a message dated 10/28/2004 4:28:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, shadowman1968 at earthlink.net writes: Steven is a great story teller but he tends to get inconsistent or changes things. I think the full story of how Vlad gets spellbreaker is in Taltos. I just finished rereading it. I don't mean to be rude but he also states in that book that Morrolan is there when Zerika is going down the falls but later in the Paths of the Dead M. isn't in the same general area. when she descends. There has been discussions on the list that these inconsistancies are intentional and part of future plot lines. I tend to agree with this. Also you have to keep in mind that Vlad stretches the truth (is a liar) and never tells the same story twice. John D. Barbato, OD From books at bofh.com Thu Oct 28 08:19:07 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:19:07 -0700 Subject: New/old crack... In-Reply-To: <1a8.2a2dae6c.2eb25645@aol.com> References: <1a8.2a2dae6c.2eb25645@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041028151907.GA25037@bofh.com> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 10:03:49AM -0400, Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/28/2004 4:28:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, > shadowman1968 at earthlink.net writes: > Steven is a great story teller but he tends to get inconsistent or changes > things. > I think the full story of how Vlad gets spellbreaker is in Taltos. I just > finished rereading > it. I don't mean to be rude but he also states in that book that Morrolan What?!?!? I'm insluted [1]. Ok, not really....:) > is there when > Zerika is going down the falls but later in the Paths of the Dead M. isn't > in the same > general area. when she descends. > There has been discussions on the list that these inconsistancies are > intentional and part of future plot lines. I tend to agree with this. Also you have > to keep in mind that Vlad stretches the truth (is a liar) and never tells the > same story twice. So, I checked my copy of Teckla and it matches the "or was it the paths of the dead" portion, so I suppose it could be that it isn't a crack. I may have to start talking into a shiny box. :) I do however see a difference between that and the Morollan/Zerika/PotD stuff. The Spellbreaker one was before this list and I suspect a lot of his fans were around. The M/Z/P was written AFTERWARDS and I believe Steven has intimated that he left that inconsistency in on purpose. After all, he could have fixed it when he wrote the whole Viscount book, but he chose not to. I suppose he would give us is stock reply for this: "Tee hee" -Jot [1] No, not a typo. :) -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 15:27:00 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041028222700.94651.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Brust wrote: ... > Oh, and, by the way, I keep hearing about "human nature" but the only > precise descriptions of it I've ever heard of involve characteristics > that are clearly based on and learned from a given society, or culture. > Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?" Sorry about the nested quotes, but this appears to be from E. O. Wilson's book _Consilience_, as quoted at "In a classic 1945 compendium, the American anthropologist George P. Murdock listed the universals of culture, which he defined as the social behaviors and institutions recorded in the Human Relations Area file for every one of the hundreds of societies studied to that time. There are sixty-seven universals in the list: age-grading, athletic sports, bodily adornment, calendar, cleanliness training, community organization, cooking, cooperative labor, cosmology, courtship, dancing, decorative art, divination, division of labor, dream interpretation, education, eschatology, ethics, ethnobotany, etiquette, faith healing, family feasting, fire making, folklore, food taboos, funeral rites, games, gestures, gift giving, government, greetings, hair styles, hospitality, housing, hygiene, incest taboos, inheritance rules, joking, kin groups, kinship nomenclature, language, law, luck superstitions, magic, marriage, mealtimes, medicine, obstetrics, penal sanctions, personal names, population policy, postnatal care, pregnancy usages, property rights, propitiation of supernatural beings, puberty customs, religious ritual, residence rules, sexual restrictions, soul concepts, status differentiation, surgery, tool making, trade, visiting, weaving, and weather control." I believe you've shown us all of them on Dragaera except that I don't remember eschatology, food taboos, incest taboos, obstetrics, or pregnancy usages. One could argue that Dragaerans, unlike Easterners, have no propitiation of supernatural beings or religious ritual, if they accept the gods and Jenoine as natural beings. There may be a few others that some Dragaeran houses don't have--I have trouble imagining a Yendi family feast or Dragon weaving. Note to would-be sf writers (including me): that list may be useful in imagining societies. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 15:37:54 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041028223754.5226.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Klein wrote: > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > > @> Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but it > @> isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, threatening > @> regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot actually > throws > @> up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love you." ... That makes sense--a gift of food. Sort of the way that in a desert culture, spitting might be a sign of respect. (Any connection, or did you just have _Dune_ in mind in that scene in _Dragon_?) > Hmm. Interesting. What does it mean when they crap on you? They've mistaken you for a source of news. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From worldserpent at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 17:52:24 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:52:24 -1000 Subject: Culture (was Architecture question for Steve based upon the Sun, the Moon & In-Reply-To: <20041028222700.94651.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> <20041028222700.94651.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59e251ba041028175241f84102@mail.gmail.com> > > I believe you've shown us all of them on Dragaera except that I don't > remember eschatology, food taboos, incest taboos, obstetrics, or > pregnancy usages. One could argue that Dragaerans, unlike Easterners, > have no propitiation of supernatural beings or religious ritual, if > they accept the gods and Jenoine as natural beings. There may be a > few others that some Dragaeran houses don't have--I have trouble > imagining a Yendi family feast or Dragon weaving. Eschatology, I think, is beliefs regarding the fate of the soul after death and the end of the world. There's been a lot of stuff about the soul post death in the books, and I gather that the Dragaeran belief system is sort of in a neverending Cycle? There doesn't seem to be a belief in a catastrophic Ragnarok or a messiah of some sort mentioned in the religion in the book. As for incest taboos, from what I recall >from anthro texts, those mainly have to do with which cousins you're forbidden to marry (were Morrolan's parents first cousins? I recall they were somehow related, but I can't recall), but most of the marriage drama in the Dragaera books has to do with forbidden exogamy (relations outside group). Charmian From warbi at warbi.net Thu Oct 28 19:00:52 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:00:52 -0700 Subject: Insect predation of humans Message-ID: <00e201c4bd5b$1f569ca0$a051b041@warbi> I just saw a show on siafu, or driver ants. They don't have stingers as army ants, but they migrate in numbers of around 20 million as opposed to just a million. They are the only known insect that perceive humans as prey and deaths attributed to them are not uncommon. Death is through asphyxiation and invasion of the lungs. warbi From MaidensPowrSlave at aol.com Thu Oct 28 21:14:50 2004 From: MaidensPowrSlave at aol.com (MaidensPowrSlave at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:14:50 EDT Subject: Question about Tazendra Message-ID: Just me being curious...but is it possible at all that Tazendra is Sethra the Younger? -Denny "One after one by the star dogged moon, too quick for groan or sigh, Each turned his face with a ghastly pang, and cursed me with his eye, Four times fifty living men(and I heard nor sigh nor groan), With a heavy thump, a lifeless lump, they dropped down one by one." Samual Taylor Coleridge(1798-1834) From antuhej at hotmail.com Thu Oct 28 23:53:04 2004 From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:53:04 +0200 Subject: Culture References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: From: "Philip Hart" > Which word? If "instinct", I'm referring to the (afaik) dominant school > of thought in linguistics which holds that our incredible language > acquisition skill as children is driven by preprogrammed traits which > are primed by experience (aka "instincts"). > > Not to pooh-pooh the rest of the animal kingdom, but humans are > qualitatively different. A group of children hearing an ungrammatical > mess from parents speaking pidgin will develop a full-scale language > of exquisite expressivity. I'm not too sure about this. I do think that we, as a species, are exquisitly (sorry for the theft) primed to LEARN (in general, not just w.r.t language). It's been genetically advantageous for us to learn and learn fast. One reason I've read that explains why we are born so helpless is that it's been shown that we learn faster if the slate is "clean", ie the brain isn't very set in its ways. However, the downside of this is that we need parents or a tribe to care for our young while their brain is developing, so we've found it darn convenient to make societies, big or small. However, this isn't a qalitative difference, since most mammals are born in a state of relative helplessness and the more "advanced" the brain is, the more helpless the young are when they are born. ie, a quantitative difference, not a qualitative difference. (or maybe I just use those q-words wrong) To sum up my pre-coffee rant: Human nature is not limited to learning language fast, but rather to _learn_ fast, in general. Which, I believe, just goes to show that "human nature" is a term that's very rarely used correctly whenever you hear the phrase uttered. Usually it's used in conjunction with words like "homosexuals are unnatural" or "It's natural to become a racist if you've been a victim of a racial crime". If that is "human nature" then I want no part of it. Anyway, I took off on a tangent. Sorry for that and the abuse of your language. :-) From mklahn at mac.com Fri Oct 29 08:05:51 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:05:51 -0500 Subject: Question about Tazendra Message-ID: <3168289.1099062351774.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Thursday, October 28, 2004, at 11:15PM, wrote: >Just me being curious...but is it possible at all that Tazendra is Sethra >the Younger? >-Denny I think that question is answered in the negative in _Sethra Lavode_ pretty clearly. If you believe Paarfi. But then again, Paarfi is the only one who talks about Tazendra, so... Matthew Klahn From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 29 09:01:25 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:01:25 -0400 Subject: Question about Tazendra In-Reply-To: <3168289.1099062351774.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> References: <3168289.1099062351774.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: <41826955.9040101@earthlink.net> Matthew Klahn wrote: > > On Thursday, October 28, 2004, at 11:15PM, > wrote: > > >> Just me being curious...but is it possible at all that Tazendra is >> Sethra the Younger? -Denny > > > > I think that question is answered in the negative in _Sethra Lavode_ > pretty clearly. If you believe Paarfi. But then again, Paarfi is the > only one who talks about Tazendra, so... Also, I think that Sethra the Younger has been definitively described as a Dragonlord in Yendi, which, assuming that Paarfi got Tazendra's house (not to mention personality/character) right, rules out her being Sethra the Younger. I think conquering the East is something a Dragon aspires to (thus her machinations in Yendi), but not necessarily something a Dzur would aspire to except as it gives the opportunity to have combat with a large number of opponents. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 29 09:44:42 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about Tazendra Message-ID: <200410291644.i9TGigtN020466@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> -Denny wrote: > Just me being curious...but is it possible at all that Tazendra is Sethra > the Younger? > -Denny Not unless she's also a goddess, as we've seen both Tazendra and StY in the same place at the same time. Besides, it's insulting to Tazendra to even suggest such. Chris (Who's not liked StY since Yendi:) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 29 10:03:52 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture Message-ID: <200410291703.i9TH3qtN022479@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> "Henrik Jonsson"wrote: > From: "Philip Hart" > Anyway, I took off on a tangent. Sorry for that and the abuse > of your language. :-) It's Philip's language? Then we can blame HIM for all the quirks, nuances, annoying inconsistancies, broken "rules", and chaotic randomness that is the English language? (I'd say God's Own English, but it sounds too British.) Well, Philip, now we know who to point the finger at! (And there was me assuming Mark Mandel was responsible...) ;> Chris (Who couldn't help himself, really;) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 29 10:19:25 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <200410291703.i9TH3qtN022479@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200410291703.i9TH3qtN022479@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > "Henrik Jonsson"wrote: > > From: "Philip Hart" > > Anyway, I took off on a tangent. Sorry for that and the abuse > > of your language. :-) > > It's Philip's language? Then we can blame HIM for all the quirks, > nuances, annoying inconsistancies, broken "rules", and chaotic > randomness that is the English language? (I'd say God's Own English, > but it sounds too British.) > > Well, Philip, now we know who to point the finger at! > (And there was me assuming Mark Mandel was responsible...) Damn, found me out. Just for the record, I'm also responsible for the quirks in German writing ("rad fahren"? following weird non-German spelling conventions for foreign words like "spaghetti"?) up until the recent silly reorganization. I also should be blamed for the past subjunctive in French, and the hard non-latin words in Spanish, and the initial "s" as a negative in Italian. (And sort of the lack of punctuation in Latin.) Mark is responsible for the problems in the other living languages. I blame you for the problems in extinct languages. And "inconsistancies". From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Fri Oct 29 10:46:01 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:46:01 -0400 Subject: Culture Message-ID: > From: Philip Hart > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > "Henrik Jonsson"wrote: > > > From: "Philip Hart" > > > Anyway, I took off on a tangent. Sorry for that and the abuse > > > of your language. :-) > > > > > It's Philip's language? Then we can blame HIM for all the quirks, > > nuances, annoying inconsistancies, broken "rules", and chaotic > > randomness that is the English language? (I'd say God's Own English, > > but it sounds too British.) > > > > Well, Philip, now we know who to point the finger at! > > (And there was me assuming Mark Mandel was responsible...) > > Damn, found me out. Just for the record, I'm also responsible I suppose that should be "Philip's Own English" then. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 29 11:21:59 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture Message-ID: <200410291821.i9TILxtN000184@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Damn, found me out. Just for the record, I'm also responsible > for the quirks in German writing ("rad fahren"? following weird > non-German spelling conventions for foreign words like "spaghetti"?) > up until the recent silly reorganization. I also should be blamed > for the past subjunctive in French, and the hard non-latin words in > Spanish, and the initial "s" as a negative in Italian. (And sort of > the lack of punctuation in Latin.) > > Mark is responsible for the problems in the other living languages. > > I blame you for the problems in extinct languages. And "inconsistancies". Esperanto isn't extinct yet, I swear it! Though yeah, I'll admit I added a few "inconsistancies" to the languages used in Susa, on the Tigris River, and Sumer. How was I to know my contributions would lead to their extinction? Chris (Avoiding work again:) From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Oct 29 12:05:17 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <200410291821.i9TILxtN000184@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200410291821.i9TILxtN000184@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <4182946D.4030402@email.ers.usda.gov> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >Though yeah, I'll admit I added a few "inconsistancies" >to the languages used in Susa, on the Tigris River, and >Sumer. How was I to know my contributions would lead >to their extinction? > > > Are you asking us not to throw bricks? (-: Snarkhunter From antuhej at hotmail.com Fri Oct 29 16:12:19 2004 From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 01:12:19 +0200 Subject: Culture References: <200410291703.i9TH3qtN022479@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" > "Henrik Jonsson"wrote: >> From: "Philip Hart" >> Anyway, I took off on a tangent. Sorry for that and the abuse >> of your language. :-) > > It's Philip's language? Then we can blame HIM for > all the quirks, nuances, annoying inconsistancies, > broken "rules", and chaotic randomness that is the > English language? (I'd say God's Own English, but it sounds > too British.) God forbid that English sounds British! What would be next? Scotch sounding British? Well, that would explain a lot, since I usually can't stand hearing liquor talk. > Well, Philip, now we know who to point the finger at! > (And there was me assuming Mark Mandel was responsible...) > > ;> > Chris (Who couldn't help himself, really;) Ok, ok, folks, the fun is over. Get back in your seats, everyone, settle down, and you over there in the corner, let the gerbils out of your pants, for heaven's sake! From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 29 18:13:39 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:13:39 -0600 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c4be1d$b14080a0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Henrik Jonsson wrote: > God forbid that English sounds British! What would be next? > Scotch sounding British? Well, that would explain a lot, since > I usually can't stand hearing liquor talk. Not to mention Welsh sounding British! From mam at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 29 21:18:51 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:18:51 -0400 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <200410291821.i9TILxtN000184@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #Esperanto isn't extinct yet, I swear it! Kaj mi subtenas lian aserton. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 29 21:18:02 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:18:02 -0400 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Philip Hart wrote: #Mark is responsible for the problems in the other living languages. And those not yet born, such as Klingon. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From frank at exit.com Fri Oct 29 22:11:39 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200410300511.i9U5Bdwx009819@realtime.exit.com> Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > #Esperanto isn't extinct yet, I swear it! > Kaj mi subtenas lian aserton. I don't know, this is all Geek to me. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From davids at Kithrup.COM Sat Oct 30 12:47:09 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about Tazendra In-Reply-To: <41826955.9040101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Jose Marquez wrote: >Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> On Thursday, October 28, 2004, at 11:15PM, >> wrote: >>> Just me being curious...but is it possible at all that Tazendra is >>> Sethra the Younger? -Denny >> >> I think that question is answered in the negative in _Sethra Lavode_ >> pretty clearly. If you believe Paarfi. But then again, Paarfi is the >> only one who talks about Tazendra, so... >Also, I think that Sethra the Younger has been definitively >described as a Dragonlord in Yendi, which, assuming that Paarfi >got Tazendra's house (not to mention personality/character) right, >rules out her being Sethra the Younger. StY is also described as being a Dragon in the Viscount books, as I recall. > I think conquering the East is something a Dragon aspires to >(thus her machinations in Yendi), but not necessarily something a >Dzur would aspire to except as it gives the opportunity to have >combat with a large number of opponents. > There is the suggestion, though, that Sethra Jr has been evangelizing her idea of conquering the East to Tazendra, when in /Paths of the Dead/, Tazendra makes some offhandedly racist remarks about Easterners (and Zerika requests that the subject be immediately dropped). This may be Tazendra's own opinion, or it may be that she has accepted Sethra Jr's propaganda. From davids at Kithrup.COM Sat Oct 30 13:13:33 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: parrots In-Reply-To: <1098800387.2361.92.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > >Yes and no. There is a sort-of head-bobbing thing parrots do, but >it isn't laughter. It's more like the dry heaves--that is, >threatening regurgitation. It means, "I love you." If the parrot >actually throws up on you, that means, "I really, *really* love >you." > >I have rarely felt sillier then when I got all choked up because >my bird threw up on me. > There is recent graphic novel trade PB of Finder called "Mystery Date" (by Carla Speed McNeil)(Lightspeed Press), which I just recently read. It depicts an individual of a species called the Laeske. These are large, vaguely reptilian beings, except that they also grow bright feathered plumage during mating season. Anyway, Laeske take great pleasure from running very fast with their young on their back, and then regurgitating for said young. This particular Laeske lives in the city with no young, so he carries a student courtesean (who is the actual protagonist of the tale) instead, and the vomits into a toilet when he's done running. In the notes for the story, the author explains this, and also mentions something about not gripping birds under the wings, because that sensation is linked to being mounted sexually; birds so gripped can form immediate strong pair bonds with the gripper - including getting angry and jealous. I wouldn't know anything about birds myself, though. From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 09:05:12 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:05:12 -0600 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've mentioned that I'm starting my novel today for the National Novel Writing Month competition. As I beginning work on the novel today, I thought I'd address some of the common questions. Some notes about NaNoWriMo 2k4 from the FAQ: When do I start writing? At 12:00:01 am local time on November 1. How do you win? Are there judges? What are the prizes? The way to win NaNoWriMo is by writing 50,000 words by midnight on November 30. Every year, there are many, many winners. There are no "Best Novel" or "Quickest-Written Novel" awards given out. All winners will get an official "Winner" web icon and certificate. What if I start and don't finish? That's ok. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? Why 50,000 words? Isn't that more of a novella? Our experiences over the past three years show that 50,000 is a difficult but doable goal, even for people with full-time jobs. The length makes it a short novel. We don't use the word "novella" because it doesn't seem to impress people the way "novel" does. Why are you doing this? What do you get out of it? NaNoWriMo is all about the magical power of deadlines. Give someone a goal and a goal-minded community and miracles are bound to happen. Pies will be eaten at amazing rates. Alfalfa will be harvested like never before. And novels will be written in a month. Part of the reason we organize NaNoWriMo is just to get a book written. We love the fringe benefits accrued to novelists. For one month out of the year, we can stew and storm, and make a huge mess of our apartments and drink lots of coffee at odd hours. And we can do all of these things loudly, in front of people. As satisfying as it is to reach deep within yourself and pull out an unexpectedly passable work of art, it is equally (if not more) satisfying to be able to dramatize the process at social gatherings. But that artsy drama window is woefully short. The other reason we do NaNoWriMo is because the glow from making big, messy art, and watching others make big, messy art, lasts for a long, long time. The act of sustained creation does bizarre, wonderful things to you. It changes the way you read. And changes, a little bit, your sense of self. We like that. Can I write one word 50,000 times? No. Well... No. I have a lot to do in November. Can I start in October and end early? No. One of the best things about NaNoWriMo is the way it spreads the agony of creation throughout a large community of co-sufferers. For the pain to be properly distributed (and thereby diminished), all participants must be working on the same deadline. Do I have to start my novel from scratch on November 1? Yes. Does that mean I can't use an outline or notes? Outlines and plot notes are very much encouraged, and can be started months ahead of the actual novel-writing adventure. Previously written prose, though, is punishable by death. I'm just writing 50,000 words of crap, why bother? Why not just write a real novel later, when I have more time? There are three reasons. 1) If you don't do it now, you probably never will. Novel writing is mostly a "one day" event. As in "One day, I'd like to write a novel." Here's the truth: 99% of us, if left to our own devices, would never make the time to write a novel. It's just so far outside our normal lives that it constantly slips down to the bottom of our to-do lists. The structure of NaNoWriMo forces you to put away all those self-defeating worries and START. Once you have the first five chapters under your belt, the rest will come easily. Or painfully. But it will come. And you'll have friends to help you see it through to 50k. 2) Aiming low is the best way to succeed. With entry-level novel writing, shooting for the moon is the surest way to get nowhere. With high expectations, everything you write will sound cheesy and awkward. Once you start evaluating your story in terms of word count, you take that pressure off yourself. And you'll start surprising yourself with a great bit of dialogue here and a ingenious plot twist there. Characters will start doing things you never expected, taking the story places you'd never imagined. There will be much execrable prose, yes. But amidst the crap, there will be beauty. A lot of it. 3) Art for art's sake does wonderful things to you. It makes you laugh. It makes you cry. It makes you want to take naps and go places wearing funny pants. Doing something just for the hell of it is a wonderful antidote to all the chores and "must-dos" of daily life. Writing a novel in a month is both exhilarating and stupid, and we would all do well to invite a little more spontaneous stupidity into our lives. Can anyone participate in NaNoWriMo? No. People who take their writing (and themselves) very seriously should probably go elsewhere. Everyone else, though, is warmly welcomed. Now, I knew most of this when I agreed to start this project but somehow missed the most telling statistic right up until last night. How many novels have been written through NaNoWriMo? We had 21 participants and six winners in 1999, 140 participants and 29 winners in 2000, 5000 particpants and more than 700 winners in 2001, 13,500 participants and around 2100 winners in 2002, and 25,500 participants and about 3500 winners in 2003. This November we're hoping for 40,000 participants and something close to 5000 winners. So as I look at that, the completion percentage the first year was less than five percent, it soared to almost eight, then steadied out around 6 percent and change. I've never been accused of being a mathmatician, but it looks to me like a very small percentage of novels actually reach the 50k word mark in 30 days, less than ten percent. That's worrisome. But, alas, I'm already committed and would love to have one of those hard-won NaNoWriMo winner icons to stick at my new creative writing only blog, www.phywriter.com. The novel that I'm working on is called _The Sky Pirate_, it is sort of a space opera (insomuch that it doesn't actually take place in space), and it appears to be channeling a _Firefly_ vibe. I guess at this point, there's really only one thing left to say: "Go!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Nov 1 08:50:24 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 11:50:24 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41862300.7594.9D9B81@localhost> On 1 Nov 2004 at 11:05, Johne Cook wrote > I've mentioned that I'm starting my novel today for the National Novel > Writing Month competition. As I beginning work on the novel today, I > thought I'd address some of the common questions. > GOOD LUCK!! M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 16:44:34 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:44:34 -0600 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/11/01/chapter-one-enter-alacrity/ I've started, reaching 2410 words already today. It's sappy, it's pulpy, it's probably just so much dreck, but hey, it's hot off the presses and it's mine. The goal for today was to start the novel and start to introduce some of the main characters. Keep in mind also that 50k words is a metric ton of words and I wanted to embellish while I can - if I do edit this, I'm sure I'll end up with a fraction of what's currently here. At this stage of the game, I'm just throwing whatever I can up against the wall to see what will stick - I can edit it down later. Here's the first snip: [quote] "They're doing a mass launch tomorrow, fifty of these ships >from across the South Brittanic. This particular ship is neither the largest nor the most versatile of the fleet, but she is the fastest, and she is capable of being helmed by a relatively small crew. She is perfect for our purposes." He looked around him then for what could only be considered dramatic tension. "Besides," he said, "which other band such as ours has this?" and he produced a piece of paper bearing the distinctive arms of Her Majesty herself. "What's that," grunted Bola, a strange sound for one as beautiful yet dangerous as she was. "He produced a Writ from the Queen Herself, giving one Cooper Flynn sway to fight the Steampunk Armada in any way he sees fit," grinned Eggplant, who proved himself in that moment to be weird but not dense. "Oh yeah? What's a writ?" blustered Bola, who proved herself dense but not weird. The Captain neatly refolded the ornate paper and stowed it away inside his short jacket. "Why, it's nothing less than tacit permission to assume control of this vessel," he grinned, "which is exactly what I intend to do." He looked around him then, meeting the eyes of everyone in his little crew. "Gentleme? gentle peo? huh." He gave a quiet chuckle, shook his head, and tried again. "Does everyone have their gloves?" Everyone gave their nod of assent with the exception of Eggplant, who didn't bother, being informed ahead of time that he was taking a different path. "Ok, this is our night," he said "Let's take what's ours, with alacrity". "What's alcrety," whispered Humble, softly. "That's the name of the ship, you dullard," said Bola with a sneer. That nearly set the Captain into a fit of laughing. With a great smile on his face, he rose as he straightened up and tested his harness. "My friends", he said, "let's fly." With that, he nimbly ran forward and slapped his chest, rising off the ground as he did. He gracefully grabbed a tether line and smoothly rose at an angle up into the darkness toward the unsuspecting ship. "Keen, it works, " observed Chain quietly.[/quote] There are links to the full chapter thus far at the site. Thanks in advance for being a part of all this. Johne (Phy) Cook . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From shannon3d at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 18:06:32 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:06:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041102020632.64883.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> 2410 words! You show off! I forgot that it was the 1st and just started at noon. Ack! I'm behind schedule. Oh well such is life. Johne Cook wrote: http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/11/01/chapter-one-enter-alacrity/ I've started, reaching 2410 words already today. It's sappy, it's pulpy, it's probably just so much dreck, but hey, it's hot off the presses and it's mine. The goal for today was to start the novel and start to introduce some of the main characters. Keep in mind also that 50k words is a metric ton of words and I wanted to embellish while I can - if I do edit this, I'm sure I'll end up with a fraction of what's currently here. At this stage of the game, I'm just throwing whatever I can up against the wall to see what will stick - I can edit it down later. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 1 19:05:41 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 22:05:41 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: <20041102020632.64883.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041102020632.64883.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4186F985.6000302@earthlink.net> Shannon Wimberly wrote: > 2410 words! You show off! I forgot that it was the 1st and just > started at noon. Ack! I'm behind schedule. Oh well such is life. It's almost a day in, and I've already started procrastinating. Not A Good Sign (TM). Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at hackwater.com \ Why vote for http://www.hackwater.com \ the lesser evil? From mam at TheWorld.com Mon Nov 1 19:14:55 2004 From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:14:55 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: <4186F985.6000302@earthlink.net> Message-ID: and i almost killed this thread, thinking it was spam on acct of the indecipherable subject... -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 2 08:53:00 2004 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:53:00 -0600 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: References: <4186F985.6000302@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16775.47980.779029.501824@fnord.io.com> Mark A Mandel writes: >and i almost killed this thread, thinking it was spam on acct of the >indecipherable subject... So says a man who doesn't have an LJ account (or at least doesn't have an LJ account with a huge friend's list, thus seeing lots of NaNoWriMo (National Writing Month, or some such) diary entries every year. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Nov 2 10:50:13 2004 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:50:13 -0800 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:18:02 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > >#Mark is responsible for the problems in the other living languages. > >And those not yet born, such as Klingon. > Who do we nail for "ebonics" and patois? From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 2 10:56:41 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Culture Message-ID: <200411021856.iA2IuetN005980@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> lazarus wrote: > >On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >And those not yet born, such as Klingon. > > Who do we nail for "ebonics" and patois? Heh. I don't know, but they're third against the wall when the revolution comes... Chris From davids at Kithrup.COM Sat Nov 6 10:46:51 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:46:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaeran dreams Message-ID: I dreamed a few weeks ago that I was reading a Vlad novel, in which he interacted with Queen Zerika in a very amusing manner. Last night, I had an even better and longer dream, where I was reading /The Final Contract/. It was *very* cool, and very well thought out, where the genuine motives for the Jenoine wishing to re-take control of Dragaera were made clear, and the transtemporal multistate nature of the Gods was explained a little better, and things tied in very neatly with what Vlad was, and has been slowly developing into. And there were more details about what Sethra Lavode does, and that ties in to some stuff she kinda glossed over in the big infodump in /Issola/. All in all, it was a very neat dream, and I just hope that when Steve actually writes /The Final Contract/, it will be at least that cool for real. PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The Incredibles/. It really is that good. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Nov 6 18:02:00 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:02:00 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <59.1a08ebab.2ebedc18@aol.com> Today's cooking recipe is from an inn The Campaigner that was located (need I mention before said city was destroyed) in Dragaera city: "a dish involving darr meat rolled around chunks of delicately seasoned beef and covered with a sauce in which butter, cream, and tarragon figured prominently." Served with "wine from the Ailor region" The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Fourth, page 42 Bye. Linda G. From warlord at dragon.com Sun Nov 7 15:44:58 2004 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 18:44:58 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041107183334.02dd1210@pop.dragon.com> At 10:46 11/6/2004 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >I dreamed a few weeks ago that I was reading a Vlad novel, >in which he interacted with Queen Zerika in a very amusing >manner. > >Last night, I had an even better and longer dream, where I >was reading /The Final Contract/. It was *very* cool, and >very well thought out, where the genuine motives for the >Jenoine wishing to re-take control of Dragaera were made >clear, and the transtemporal multistate nature of the Gods >was explained a little better, and things tied in very >neatly with what Vlad was, and has been slowly developing >into. And there were more details about what Sethra Lavode >does, and that ties in to some stuff she kinda glossed over >in the big infodump in /Issola/. > >All in all, it was a very neat dream, and I just hope that >when Steve actually writes /The Final Contract/, it will be >at least that cool for real. > >PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The Incredibles/. >It really is that good. Don't you mean multi-temporal? After all, they operate in several states of time, not just one. Also, I'll bet that Sethra was a really COOL rock who sympathized with everyone. You know -- very sedimentary. Warlord "and we'll have fun, fun, fun 'til my daddy takes the T1 away" From warlord at dragon.com Sun Nov 7 15:50:41 2004 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 18:50:41 -0500 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <200411021856.iA2IuetN005980@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041107184622.031cfaa0@pop.dragon.com> At 10:56 11/2/2004 -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >lazarus wrote: > > >On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > >And those not yet born, such as Klingon. > > > > Who do we nail for "ebonics" and patois? > >Heh. I don't know, but they're third against >the wall when the revolution comes... > >Chris I had kingons once. I'll *never* forget to buy toilet paper again. W "Heisenberg might have been here." From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 8 01:32:05 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:32:05 -0000 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <200411021856.iA2IuetN005980@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20041108093229.ECTH1100.mta09-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: 02 November 2004 18:57 To: mam at TheWorld.com; lazarus33pjf at cox.net Cc: philiph at slac.stanford.edu; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Culture >Heh. I don't know, but they're third against the wall when the revolution comes... Dare we ask who first and second are? Mark From Raellew at aol.com Mon Nov 8 01:55:00 2004 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 04:55:00 EST Subject: Culture Message-ID: <24.645c1747.2ec09c74@aol.com> In a message dated 11/8/2004, Mark Tiller writes: From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: 02 November 2004 18:57 >>Heh. I don't know, but they're third against the wall when the >>revolution comes... > >Dare we ask who first and second are? Well, first against the wall will be the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation. Bunch of mindless jerks. Rae From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 06:03:55 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:03:55 -0700 Subject: Culture References: <24.645c1747.2ec09c74@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 2:55 AM Subject: Re: Culture > In a message dated 11/8/2004, Mark Tiller writes: > > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > Sent: 02 November 2004 18:57 > > >>Heh. I don't know, but they're third against the wall when the > >>revolution comes... > > > >Dare we ask who first and second are? > > Well, first against the wall will be the marketing division of the > Sirius Cybernetics Corporation. Bunch of mindless jerks. > > Rae > Complete knee-biters, that lot. Jeff From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Nov 8 09:02:41 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:02:41 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:46:51 PST." Message-ID: <200411081702.iA8H2feO026852@no-knife.mit.edu> Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? I've never found someone else who did that. > I dreamed a few weeks ago that I was reading a Vlad novel, > in which he interacted with Queen Zerika in a very amusing > manner. > > Last night, I had an even better and longer dream, where I > was reading /The Final Contract/. It was *very* cool, and > very well thought out, where the genuine motives for the > Jenoine wishing to re-take control of Dragaera were made > clear, and the transtemporal multistate nature of the Gods > was explained a little better, and things tied in very > neatly with what Vlad was, and has been slowly developing > into. And there were more details about what Sethra Lavode > does, and that ties in to some stuff she kinda glossed over > in the big infodump in /Issola/. > > All in all, it was a very neat dream, and I just hope that > when Steve actually writes /The Final Contract/, it will be > at least that cool for real. > > PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The Incredibles/. > It really is that good. > From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Nov 8 09:05:38 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:05:38 -0800 Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <169001c4c5b5$2bb4fb10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The > Incredibles/. It really is that good. Second that. Especially you folks who have mentioned being City of Heroes players. From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Mon Nov 8 09:14:49 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:14:49 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams Message-ID: I play city of heroes as well I play on the virtue server as a scrapper -----Original Message----- From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:06 PM To: 'Dragaera List' Subject: RE: Dragaeran dreams > PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The > Incredibles/. It really is that good. Second that. Especially you folks who have mentioned being City of Heroes players. From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 09:53:10 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:53:10 -0600 Subject: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:14:49 -0500, Brian Keegan wrote: > I play city of heroes as well I play on the virtue server as a scrapper > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:06 PM > To: 'Dragaera List' > Subject: RE: Dragaeran dreams > > > PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The > > Incredibles/. It really is that good. > > Second that. Especially you folks who have mentioned being City of Heroes > players. I wrote a short story a few months ago where one of the main characters was named Gresh Firebrand. I built a character around how he looked and acted on Infinity. He's a lvl 27 Fire / Devices Blaster, and all he's missing is his dragon. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From davids at Kithrup.COM Mon Nov 8 11:57:29 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:57:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: <200411081702.iA8H2feO026852@no-knife.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > >Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? Sure. Well, it wasn't as clear that it was a book for this most recent dream, but in the previous one, I know it was because I put the book down and went to do something else. And in the cool dream about Dragaera I had before, where an Issola interviews a Dragon and teleports out at the end of the chapter, I looked up from the book to savor how great the sequence was. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Nov 8 13:01:54 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:01:54 -0800 Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1b8b01c4c5d6$2d6910b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I play city of heroes as well I play on the virtue server as > a scrapper -----Original Message----- There were noises once about a Dragaeran super group but I don't think we found any two list members who were on the same server. *heh* From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Nov 8 13:13:41 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:13:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Nov 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > I dreamed a few weeks ago that I was reading a Vlad novel, in which > he interacted with Queen Zerika in a very amusing manner. > > Last night, I had an even better and longer dream, where I > was reading /The Final Contract/. [...] I suggest (for future reference/bragging rights/apportionment of raspberries) that you outline these dreams and send a zipped version to Mark Mandel to be opened in the happy/unhappy time after we have read and digested and argued _TFC_. From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Nov 8 13:07:31 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:07:31 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: <200411081702.iA8H2feO026852@no-knife.mit.edu> References: Your message of "Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:46:51 PST." Message-ID: <418F99C3.14297.16DC5BB@localhost> On 8 Nov 2004 at 12:02, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote > > Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? I've never > found someone else who did that. > I was told or read somewhere that it was not possible to read in dreams (I think because the portion of the brain responsible for reading is off-line during the REM state - I could be wrong). However, shortly after I heard this, I began having dreams in which I could pick up a book and read it. Which may speak more to my stubbornness than my actual ability to read while asleep. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From books at bofh.com Mon Nov 8 14:21:47 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:21:47 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: <418F99C3.14297.16DC5BB@localhost> References: <418F99C3.14297.16DC5BB@localhost> Message-ID: <20041108222147.GA1237@bofh.com> On Mon, Nov 08, 2004 at 04:07:31PM -0500, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 8 Nov 2004 at 12:02, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote > > > Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? I've never > > found someone else who did that. > > I was told or read somewhere that it was not possible to read in > dreams (I think because the portion of the brain responsible for > reading is off-line during the REM state - I could be wrong). > However, shortly after I heard this, I began having dreams in which > I could pick up a book and read it. I distinctly remember "reading" _Whuthering Heights_ in a dream in high school. I also remember being bitterly disappointed when I realized that I still had to _actually_ finish reading it. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com Mon Nov 8 14:36:13 2004 From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:36:13 -0600 Subject: Dragaeran dreams In-Reply-To: <418F99C3.14297.16DC5BB@localhost> Message-ID: <20041108223612.30F0F1751CF@merry.dreamhost.com> -----Original Message----- From: Michele Riccio [mailto:mr1 at rcosta.com] Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:08 PM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Dragaeran dreams On 8 Nov 2004 at 12:02, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote > > Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? I've never > found someone else who did that. > >I was told or read somewhere that it was not possible to read in >dreams (I think because the portion of the brain responsible for >reading is off-line during the REM state - I could be wrong). >However, shortly after I heard this, I began having dreams in which >I could pick up a book and read it. >Which may speak more to my stubbornness than my actual ability >to read while asleep. I've heard the same thing and I think it's a crock. I've read in dreams, usually a sign or in the many numerous places you encounter text outside of a book, though there are select occasions where I've read from a book, or a letter or things like that. What we think we know about the brain compared to what we don't know about it is startling. If there is truth to the idea that you can't (or shouldn't be able to read) while dreaming it certainly isn't a bold and sweeping fact, it could be that *most* or *some* people can't for some such reason or another. Then again I'm not authoritative in any way on the subject. From davids at Kithrup.COM Mon Nov 8 16:45:55 2004 From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:45:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: I thought this was interesting enough to entirely crosspost. Alas that I speke no Frenshe. Article: 1194855 of rec.arts.sf.written From: dtate at ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Re: SFnal Linguistic Tricks Date: 8 Nov 2004 06:10:06 -0800 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0411080610.6d11c667 at posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.246.254.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:10:06 +0000 (UTC) David Silberstein wrote in message news:... > In article , > Michael Caldwell wrote: > >I've taken such a shine to them that I've started using them in > >real life to some extent, especially the phrase "I pretend" to > >mean all of the things such as "I think", "I suppose", "Possibly", > >"I am certain of" etc that it does in this usage. > > I nearly think that if you are using "pretend" to mean "certain", > then you are entirely misusing the essence of the word. To quote > two words by the noble C. Sophronia Cleebers: > > 3. It appears that Dragaeran, like some languages in our > own world, grammatically distinguishes statements of > observed fact from guesses, inferences, and unsupported > allegations. To illustrate this, compare English, which > allows the same verb to be used for all those senses -- > both /I see it is red/ and /I see it is new/ -- with the > Hopi language, which requires the speaker to distinguish > them: /I see it is red/, but /I infer that it is new/. > > In Brust's translation, this distinction is > conveyed by the verb "to pretend." It takes the place of > such words as feign, guess, allege, assert, imagine, > claim, believe, say (without further substantiation), > theorize, think, be under the impression that, represent > as being and pretend (in its usual sense), as well as > the interrogative, do (you) wish to make me believe; > that is, in statements unsupported by material > observation. That's nicely erudite, but way too complicated. What Brust is actually doing is using the verb "to pretend" as it was when first borrowed from the French, where "pr?tendre" still means "to claim or assert". The Stuart heirs were called Pretenders because they were asserting a claim, not because they were feigning or simulating anything: pretend c.1380, "to profess or claim," from O.Fr. pretendre "to lay claim," from L. pr?tendere "stretch in front, put forward, allege," from pr?- "before" + tendere "to stretch," from PIE base *ten- "to stretch" (see tend). Main modern sense of "feign, put forward a false claim" is recorded from 1412; the older sense of simply "to claim" is behind the string of royal pretenders (1697) in Eng. history. Meaning "to play, make believe" is recorded from 1865. > >Also the over use of "Almost" ("Have you seen your father > >today?" "I almost pretend that I have.") 'Almost'? I nearly think the word of choice is 'nearly'. > To continue with two more words by Cleebers: > > It is clear, from Brust's translations of > Paarfi's pre-Interregnum works, that at that time the > Dragaeran language also distinguished states of > imperfect knowledge on the part of the speaker, a > distinction that Brust most commonly translates as "to > almost think." For whatever reason -- the linguistic > evolution of Dragaeran is beyond the scope of this essay > -- it appears that by the time of the events described > in the present volume, everyday speech had dispensed > with this distinction concerning one's own state of > knowledge. I would propose an alternative interpretation. Paarfi is describing an extremely mannered and cutthroat society, in which giving offense could easily be fatal. Such societies invariably develop speech mannerisms that allow vulnerable persons to state opinions or make suggestions without the full force that a simple statement or suggestion would normally have, in order to make it possible for the listener to demur or decline without either party being forced to take umbrage. I take Brust to be using constructions like "I nearly think" or "I almost feel" to capture whatever Dragaeran amelioratives existed in the speech of that time. It's not honesty about the state of one's knowledge; it's caution in the face of prickly codes of honor. David Tate From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Nov 8 20:02:00 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:02:00 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: Today's cooking recipe is from an inn The Painted Sign located in the city of Troe which was called at the time of this noon repast Bengloarafurd. Before that the city went by several other names such as Bengloara Ford, Bengloara, Benglo Ford, Bengazlo Ford, Ben gazlo, Ben Ford and Ben. A "noon repast, which consisted of sausages roasted on a spit, and a broth made of fresh mountain mushrooms, bacon of kethna, and certain herbs which were grown in the yard of the hostel. At the end of the meal, the host caused to be delivered a large cake made of mulberries and rednuts, topped with boiled fruit and a cream made >from goat?s milk. The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Twenty-second page 253 City names page 249 to 250 Bye. Linda G. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 10 11:37:03 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:37:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041110193703.32582.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > >Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? > > Sure. Well, it wasn't as clear that it was a book for this most > recent dream, but in the previous one, I know it was because I put > the book down and went to do something else. I've read in dreams too. I can seldom remember the stories, though. > And in the cool dream about Dragaera I had before, where an Issola > interviews a Dragon and teleports out at the end of the chapter, I > looked up from the book to savor how great the sequence was. I've never gone that far. By the way, have people done "Sz?rke" yet? I just learned that it's Hungarian for "gray" (and "grey"). Also drab, commonplace, etc. -- Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From dustysayers at earthlink.net Wed Nov 10 13:13:14 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:13:14 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: <20041110193703.32582.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041110193703.32582.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4192846A.4000902@earthlink.net> Jerry Friedman wrote: >--- David Silberstein wrote: > > > >>On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >> >> >> >>>Did you actually dream that you were reading a book? >>> >>> >>Sure. Well, it wasn't as clear that it was a book for this most >>recent dream, but in the previous one, I know it was because I put >>the book down and went to do something else. >> >> > >I've read in dreams too. I can seldom remember the stories, though. > > > >>And in the cool dream about Dragaera I had before, where an Issola >>interviews a Dragon and teleports out at the end of the chapter, I >>looked up from the book to savor how great the sequence was. >> >> > >I've never gone that far. > >By the way, have people done "Sz?rke" yet? I just learned that >it's Hungarian for "gray" (and "grey"). Also drab, commonplace, >etc. > > > And one of the colours of House Jhereg (and, as far as I know, the only colour that's unique to them--I don't know of any other house that uses grey, although Dzur and Dragon (and perhaps others that I have forgotten or that have not been mentioned) use black). -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'All that is needed for the forces of evil to win is for good men to do nothing.' --Edmund Burke From dustysayers at earthlink.net Wed Nov 10 13:28:37 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:28:37 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: References: <20041110193703.32582.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> <4192846A.4000902@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41928805.2040309@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:13:14 -0500, J A 'Dusty' Sayers > wrote: > >> And one of the colours of House Jhereg (and, as far as I know, the >> only colour that's unique to them--I don't know of any other house >> that uses grey, although Dzur and Dragon (and perhaps others that I >> have forgotten or that have not been mentioned) use black). > > > How many houses do we have more than a passing acquaintance of? > > It would be neat if someone had a web-site that kept a list of known > and suspected attributes of the various houses and species. > It turns out that there is: http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html I was just too lazy to check it earlier. It lists the colours of 13 houses (counting Yendi's intentional lack of distinguishing colours among those 13), none of which use grey except the Jhereg--although some of the four houses without listed colours certainly might. Besides this neat little page, Dr Mandel's Cracks and Shards entire web site is very handy--possibly the best Dragaera page out there, although there are other good ones as well (I love the pronunciation guide on http://dragaera.info/ ). -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.' --C S Lewis From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 10 14:05:41 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:05:41 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: <41928805.2040309@earthlink.net> References: <20041110193703.32582.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> <4192846A.4000902@earthlink.net> <41928805.2040309@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:28:37 -0500, J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:13:14 -0500, J A 'Dusty' Sayers >> wrote: >> >>> And one of the colours of House Jhereg (and, as far as I know, the >>> only colour that's unique to them--I don't know of any other house >>> that uses grey, although Dzur and Dragon (and perhaps others that I >>> have forgotten or that have not been mentioned) use black). >> >> >> How many houses do we have more than a passing acquaintance of? >> >> It would be neat if someone had a web-site that kept a list of known >> and suspected attributes of the various houses and species. >> > It turns out that there is: > > http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html Nice site. I did notice that his "Other Peoples of Dragaera" leaves out the two or three (depending on how you count demons) "peoples" who live in Dragaera and beyond it. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From mam at theWorld.com Wed Nov 10 18:57:20 2004 From: mam at theWorld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:57:20 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: <41928805.2040309@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: #Besides this neat little page, Dr Mandel's Cracks and Shards entire web #site is very handy--possibly the best Dragaera page out there, although #there are other good ones as well (I love the pronunciation guide on #http://dragaera.info/ ). Gentlebeing, you do me honor. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From dustysayers at earthlink.net Wed Nov 10 20:15:28 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:15:28 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4192E760.9060305@earthlink.net> Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > >#Besides this neat little page, Dr Mandel's Cracks and Shards entire web >#site is very handy--possibly the best Dragaera page out there, although >#there are other good ones as well (I love the pronunciation guide on >#http://dragaera.info/ ). > >Gentlebeing, you do me honor. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > > > > It's the least I could do; I've appreciated your site for years, and always find it useful. It was also the easiest reference I could find to the house colours. -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do.' -- Steven Brust From jda3 at njit.edu Wed Nov 10 20:30:44 2004 From: jda3 at njit.edu (Jason Axelrod) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:30:44 -0500 Subject: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0I6Z00493Z7828@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:14:49 -0500, Brian Keegan wrote: > I play city of heroes as well I play on the virtue server as a scrapper > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:06 PM > To: 'Dragaera List' > Subject: RE: Dragaeran dreams > > > PS: Speaking of cool stuff: You must all see /The > > Incredibles/. It really is that good. > > Second that. Especially you folks who have mentioned being City of Heroes > players. I hate for this to sound like spam... I've been on this mailing list in the past, but I really didn't have reason to comment much on it and I unsubscribed because I had not yet finished reading all the Dragaeran novels and I wished not to get spoiled, such as I did with the whole thing about Teldra and GodSlayer. Anyway, I recently rejoined the mailing list as I have finished all the Dragaeran novels and now I won't mind reading because there is nothing left to get spoiled... I've heard nothing but good things about The Incredibles, something in the matter of "Its Pixar's greatest movie ever!" I will probably see it sometime next week if I find time for it between EverQuest2 and work. I myself used to play City of Heroes, a fire blaster named Tyranthraxis (props if you can tell me where the name is from). But I quit after 2 months because I found the game rather boring, without much of a story and generally just too repetitive. But I am an active MMO player and I enjoy the community aspect of gaming, knowing that the people I am playing with are real people and interacting with them... That's why I formed my own guild in EverQuest2, based on SKZB of course. The guild is called "The Lavodes", and I made sure to ask Steven's permission before I created the guild. Of course I would like to invite anyone on these forums who play EQ2 (or plan on playing EQ2) to join the guild; we are on the GUK server. - Jason Axelrod (http://www.bakagaijin.com/) From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Nov 10 20:45:16 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:45:16 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <13f.610e20a.2ec4485c@aol.com> Today's cooking recipe is from Castle Redface: A feast of "fresh mountain poppy-bread with goat's cheese, and the meat of wild boar, and roast pheasant which had been stuffed with black mushrooms, and thin slices of kethna served in a butter-cream sauce of which even the Emperor, who prided himself on his palate, could have found no complaint." The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Twenty-fourth page 295 Bye. Linda G. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Nov 10 21:26:50 2004 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:26:50 -0800 Subject: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) Message-ID: That would be from Martin Scott's books- Thraxas, and Death and Thraxas. James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >From: Jason Axelrod >To: 'Dragaera List' snip >I've heard nothing but good things about The Incredibles, something in the >matter of "Its Pixar's greatest movie ever!" I will probably see it >sometime >next week if I find time for it between EverQuest2 and work. I myself used >to play City of Heroes, a fire blaster named Tyranthraxis (props if you can tell me where the name is from). But I quit after 2 months because I found >the game rather boring, without much of a story and generally just too >repetitive. But I am an active MMO player and I enjoy the community aspect >of gaming, knowing that the people I am playing with are real people and >interacting with them... snip>- Jason Axelrod >(http://www.bakagaijin.com/) > > From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 10 21:34:56 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:34:56 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <13f.610e20a.2ec4485c@aol.com> (FRIEDA2133@aol.com's message of "Wed, 10 Nov 2004 23:45:16 EST") References: <13f.610e20a.2ec4485c@aol.com> Message-ID: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: > Today's cooking recipe is from Castle Redface: I've been enjoying these. The idea of a series of food descriptions (with reference to where in the books it's from) is neat. I haven't been commenting, and haven't seen others commenting either, so I thought I'd at least say "RAE,BNC" (old Minneapa usage, "read and enjoyed, but no comments"). Sorry I'm not finding discussion paths to go down from them! But I'm still enjoying seeing them. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 10 22:03:23 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:03:23 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: References: <13f.610e20a.2ec4485c@aol.com> Message-ID: <419300AB.7000408@earthlink.net> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: > >>Today's cooking recipe is from Castle Redface: > > I've been enjoying these. The idea of a series of food descriptions > (with reference to where in the books it's from) is neat. > > I haven't been commenting, and haven't seen others commenting either, > so I thought I'd at least say "RAE,BNC" (old Minneapa usage, "read > and enjoyed, but no comments"). Sorry I'm not finding discussion > paths to go down from them! But I'm still enjoying seeing them. I seem to recall some talk about having these recipes available on the dragaera.info site under articles; if I recall even more correctly, if we do create a cooking/recipes section, I think either Steve or someone else (too lazy to check either my or the list archives) posted a recipe for workable klava... Jose -- Jose Marquez \ There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com \ binary, and those who don't. From jda3 at njit.edu Wed Nov 10 23:46:46 2004 From: jda3 at njit.edu (Jason Axelrod) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 02:46:46 -0500 Subject: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0I7000JAN8A8TR@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> > That would be from Martin Scott's books- Thraxas, and Death and Thraxas. > > James Griffin > Still Another Vlad faN > > >From: Jason Axelrod > >To: 'Dragaera List' > snip > >I've heard nothing but good things about The Incredibles, something in > the > >matter of "Its Pixar's greatest movie ever!" I will probably see it > >sometime > >next week if I find time for it between EverQuest2 and work. I myself > used > >to play City of Heroes, a fire blaster named Tyranthraxis > > (props if you can tell me where the name is from). Hmm. Maybe, but as far as I know it is from D&D's Pool of Radiance for the Commodore 64. - Jason Axelrod The Lavodes (http://www.bakagaijin.com/) From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 11 07:19:57 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:19:57 -0700 Subject: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) References: <0I7000JAN8A8TR@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Axelrod" To: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 12:46 AM Subject: RE: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) > > That would be from Martin Scott's books- Thraxas, and Death and Thraxas. > > > > James Griffin > > Still Another Vlad faN > > > > >From: Jason Axelrod > > >To: 'Dragaera List' > > snip > > >I've heard nothing but good things about The Incredibles, something in > > the > > >matter of "Its Pixar's greatest movie ever!" I will probably see it > > >sometime > > >next week if I find time for it between EverQuest2 and work. I myself > > used > > >to play City of Heroes, a fire blaster named Tyranthraxis > > > > (props if you can tell me where the name is from). > > Hmm. Maybe, but as far as I know it is from D&D's Pool of Radiance for the > Commodore 64. > > - Jason Axelrod > The Lavodes (http://www.bakagaijin.com/) > > > "Congratulations! The party gains experien" Heh heh heh. Jeff From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Thu Nov 11 10:01:32 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:01:32 -0500 Subject: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) Message-ID: I had a kin/dark defender named levode am also buying eq2 Saturday. what server is your guild going to be on? eq1 name was coyoteblack prolly will be same thing -----Original Message----- From: James Griffin [mailto:umbraenoctis at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 12:27 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: City of Heroes (was Re: Dragaeran dreams) That would be from Martin Scott's books- Thraxas, and Death and Thraxas. James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >From: Jason Axelrod >To: 'Dragaera List' snip >I've heard nothing but good things about The Incredibles, something in the >matter of "Its Pixar's greatest movie ever!" I will probably see it >sometime >next week if I find time for it between EverQuest2 and work. I myself used >to play City of Heroes, a fire blaster named Tyranthraxis (props if you can tell me where the name is from). But I quit after 2 months because I found >the game rather boring, without much of a story and generally just too >repetitive. But I am an active MMO player and I enjoy the community aspect >of gaming, knowing that the people I am playing with are real people and >interacting with them... snip>- Jason Axelrod >(http://www.bakagaijin.com/) > > From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 11 11:24:34 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:24:34 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <419300AB.7000408@earthlink.net> (Jose Marquez's message of "Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:03:23 -0500") References: <13f.610e20a.2ec4485c@aol.com> <419300AB.7000408@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >> >>> Today's cooking recipe is from Castle Redface: >> I've been enjoying these. The idea of a series of food descriptions >> (with reference to where in the books it's from) is neat. I haven't >> been commenting, and haven't seen others commenting either, >> so I thought I'd at least say "RAE,BNC" (old Minneapa usage, "read >> and enjoyed, but no comments"). Sorry I'm not finding discussion >> paths to go down from them! But I'm still enjoying seeing them. > > I seem to recall some talk about having these recipes available on the > dragaera.info site under articles; if I recall even more correctly, if > we do create a cooking/recipes section, I think either Steve or > someone else (too lazy to check either my or the list archives) posted > a recipe for workable klava... An article on Dragaeran food, with some recipes, would certainly be welcome. These extracts aren't what I think of as recipes -- they don't tell you how to make the dishes. On the other hand, they're actual meals from the books, where the recipes are all made up out here in the real world. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From kknolte at ecity.net Thu Nov 11 11:14:45 2004 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:14:45 +0100 Subject: Culture and Languages References: Message-ID: <4193BA23.27E4@ecity.net> Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > > #Mark is responsible for the problems in the other living languages. > > And those not yet born, such as Klingon. As long as this has gotten onto languages - a question I've been wondering about. Some of the Dragaeran Houses have different languages than standard Dragaeran (like Adrilankha means something in Orca, IIRC). So, assuming Dragaeran and human language acquisition skills are fairly similar, can you extrapolate off that? Like, could it mean the humans the Jenoine made Dragaerans from came >from a lot of different cultures, and maybe the Jenoine, being aliens, were trying to figure out which genes coded for the various traits the different cultural groups are stereotypically supposed to have? (This would assume that the animal genes are just easy gene trackers, rather than determinative, of course). Or would it make more sense to assume that the original Dragaerans all spoke one language, but there was a long period between the original Houses getting out of the labs and the formation of Kieron's empire, so the languages mutated so that each House spoke a language that didn't obviously resemble each others? In this case - how many generations would you need before that would happen? Or could it just mean that some of the Houses wanted a secret language they could communicate in amongst themselves, and developed one, while others didn't care? Would the RL use of Klingon, frex, show that this is certainly a good possibility, or does Klingon use show more that given a big enough population, 1% of all people can be a fairly large percentage, but a small group isn't likely to do anything like that? Karen From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Nov 11 19:25:12 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:25:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaeran dreams, also Hungarian gray In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041112032512.46443.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > Nice site. Thank you. > I did notice that his "Other Peoples of Dragaera" leaves out > the two or three (depending on how you count demons) "peoples" who live in > Dragaera and beyond it. Yeah... now that we're pretty much settled in, a year after moving from Massachusetts to Philadelphia, I hope to get back to being able to update. By the way, I will be using this e-mail address from now on, closing at the account at theworld.com a.k.a. world.std.com. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Nov 11 19:40:35 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:40:35 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: Jose Marquez wrote on Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:03:23 -0500 >I seem to recall some talk about having these recipes available on the >dragaera.info site under articles; if I recall even more correctly, if >we do create a cooking/recipes section, I think either Steve or someone >else (too lazy to check either my or the list archives) posted a recipe >for workable klava... Hi, In September 2004 Subject: RE: Updated pronunciation guide 2nd posting by David Dyer-Bennet about David's response about possible articles. http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:14831:200409:jbgkcmfenceaf ngllilb The klava recipe is from Issola. And the reason I wrote 7. Cooking(some with a warning not to try this recipe) was because of these threads (from June 2002 and March 2003 Subject: On Klava) in which several people wrote about trying the klava recipe. http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:sss:7429:200303:eocfglpaambefn pgocco#b David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:24:34 -0600 >An article on Dragaeran food, with some recipes, would certainly be >welcome. These extracts aren't what I think of as recipes -- they >don't tell you how to make the dishes. On the other hand, they're >actual meals from the books, where the recipes are all made up out >here in the real world. Hmmm, Today's cooking extract... David, I was just writing these extracts down on notepaper when I thought it would be cool and/or funny to post them as recipes. Heh, they have ingredients. I had been putting them in one document for your "normal editorial practices", but maybe you want an article that is more than a list of text extractions. I was going to start a paper list of spells, but I think I will post these extracts as Today's magic lesson starting with how Tazendra made flashstones. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Nov 11 19:49:18 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:49:18 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1e2.2ed6dbe7.2ec58cbe@aol.com> Today's cooking recipe is from an inn The Painted Sign located in the city of Troe: A repast of "duck which has been covered with wild plums before being baked like a loaf of bread." ... served with bread ... "tear off pieces of this heavy, dark bread and allow these pieces to absorb the sauce, and then eat them along with it." Served with "Furnia wine". The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Thirty-first page 393 and 394. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 11 22:17:34 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:17:34 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: (FRIEDA2133@aol.com's message of "Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:40:35 EST") References: Message-ID: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: > David, I was just writing these extracts down on notepaper when I > thought it would be cool and/or funny to post them as recipes. And it certainly is. > Heh, they have ingredients. I had been putting them in one > document for your "normal editorial practices", but maybe you > want an article that is more than a list of text extractions. An article that's a list of "things" (recipes, spells) with references is of interest, particularly if it makes a reasonably credible claim to be complete across a good-size set of the books. The other kind of cooking article I hope to have some of some day is a specific recipe, worked out in detail, with explanations of what decisions they had to make along the way, why they made them, and how their friends liked the result :-). Or perhaps several recipes combined, as a report on a "Dragaeran dinner" (yes, it's been done before). And kinds of cooking articles I haven't thought of will be looked at with a moderately open mind. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Nov 12 08:02:46 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:02:46 -0800 Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16c701c4c8d1$0d0b4920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Interesting that people have tried this and reported their results. I think I'd want to make sure that the woods used were free of additives or naturally-occuring poisons. I suppose your average tree is safe enough, though. If you can throw it on the fire to flavor food with the smoke, then I suppose you ought to be able to strain coffee through it. I get the impression that Stephen never expected anyone to actually try it. *heh* Still, cinnamon is just ground up tree bark so it's not that far-fetched. For the people who have tried this, did you actually build a filter as described in the book or did you simply boil the wood chips and eggshells in the water along with the coffee and then strain it out? On a semi-related note, I was curious about the relationship of eggshells to coffee so I did a search and the very first item on the results was this: http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html - June Meyer's Authentic Hungarian Egg Coffee The idea of mixing eggs in your coffee is, I suppose, not qualitatively different than mixing sawdust with it. *heh* I'm not sure if the egg changes the coffee in some way or if the eggshell is really the magic ingredient but I might try it for kicks one of these days. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 12 09:02:43 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:02:43 -0700 Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) References: <16c701c4c8d1$0d0b4920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:02 AM Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) Interesting that people have tried this and reported their results. I think I'd want to make sure that the woods used were free of additives or naturally-occuring poisons. I suppose your average tree is safe enough, though. If you can throw it on the fire to flavor food with the smoke, then I suppose you ought to be able to strain coffee through it. I get the impression that Stephen never expected anyone to actually try it. *heh* Still, cinnamon is just ground up tree bark so it's not that far-fetched. For the people who have tried this, did you actually build a filter as described in the book or did you simply boil the wood chips and eggshells in the water along with the coffee and then strain it out? On a semi-related note, I was curious about the relationship of eggshells to coffee so I did a search and the very first item on the results was this: http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html - June Meyer's Authentic Hungarian Egg Coffee The idea of mixing eggs in your coffee is, I suppose, not qualitatively different than mixing sawdust with it. *heh* I'm not sure if the egg changes the coffee in some way or if the eggshell is really the magic ingredient but I might try it for kicks one of these days. ********************* I thought he was referring to a coffee press http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/presspot Jeff From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Nov 12 09:35:45 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:35:45 -0500 Subject: Dzur Mnt. Message-ID: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say or ask something already said or asked, I appologize. I have only ever seen one theory as to why Sethra can't leave Dzur Mountain as Sethra, but can as Kiera. I have a theory (and it goes along w/ why she looks tired when Vlad sees her later): She can't leave Dzur Mountain at that time because the Jenoine might mught detect her (or what ever it is they do) as Sethra. Loiosh didn't recognize Kiera as Sethra, so maybe the Jenoine couldn't either. Anyway, that's just what I think. You can put it on your sites and in your own words cause I am horrible at making sense (just give me a little credit, ok). From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Nov 12 09:42:01 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:42:01 -0500 Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War Message-ID: <56F1B688.4186C509.00184D6D@aol.com> I am reading the Taltos Novels for the third time (this time afer reading FG and FHYA). I am confused as to which Jhereg was killed that was under Adron's care that started the war and resulted ing Adron's disaster. Adron's Disaster was the result of a screw up. I know stories get crossed (especially w/ Vlad) and Aliera might not have known the truth, but I just got really confused. Can someone please help me with that? Thank you with all my heart. -Crystal From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Nov 12 10:16:30 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:16:30 -0800 Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War In-Reply-To: <56F1B688.4186C509.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <200411121816.iACIGUv4024489@smtp.ucsd.edu> "Who" gets killed is in _Jhereg_. But there is no tension between "Adron protecting a Jhereg which led to the Disaster" and "Adron's disaster was the result of a screw-up." Because of the War, many good Dragon generals were killed, and Adron had to rely more heavily on sorcery than would have been ideal if all those generals were available to him. The "screw up" happened in a way because he was forced to go the sorcerous route instead of a strictly military one. Shawn -----Original Message----- From: MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:42 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War I am reading the Taltos Novels for the third time (this time afer reading FG and FHYA). I am confused as to which Jhereg was killed that was under Adron's care that started the war and resulted ing Adron's disaster. Adron's Disaster was the result of a screw up. I know stories get crossed (especially w/ Vlad) and Aliera might not have known the truth, but I just got really confused. Can someone please help me with that? Thank you with all my heart. -Crystal From howard at brazee.net Fri Nov 12 10:37:45 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:37:45 -0700 Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: <16c701c4c8d1$0d0b4920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <16c701c4c8d1$0d0b4920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:02:46 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > For the people who have tried this, did you actually build a filter as > described in the book or did you simply boil the wood chips and > eggshells in > the water along with the coffee and then strain it out? A friend of mine is a cowboy as well as a computer programmer. At work, he makes "cowboy coffee", which he favors. Boil some water with coffee grounds in it and then poor it through a neckerchief. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Fri Nov 12 10:40:54 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:40:54 -0700 Subject: Dzur Mnt. In-Reply-To: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:35:45 -0500, wrote: > I have only ever seen one theory as to why Sethra can't leave Dzur > Mountain as Sethra, but can as > Kiera. I have a theory (and it goes along w/ why she looks tired when > Vlad sees her later): She can't > leave Dzur Mountain at that time because the Jenoine might mught detect > her (or what ever it is they > do) as Sethra. Loiosh didn't recognize Kiera as Sethra, so maybe the > Jenoine couldn't either. Anyway, > that's just what I think. You can put it on your sites and in your own > words cause I am horrible at > making sense (just give me a little credit, ok). Sometimes Sethra can leave Dzur mountain, sometimes she can't. We have seen her away from the mountain - even running a war! I don't think that an ordinary disguise would even be noticed by the Jenoine. But it might be possible for her to take off some powers (leave them behind - with IceWand), and be disguised from them. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 12 10:51:51 2004 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:51:51 -0500 Subject: Dzur Mnt. In-Reply-To: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112134936.02f445c0@pop.east.cox.net> At 12:35 11/12/2004 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say or ask >something already said or asked, I appologize. >I have only ever seen one theory as to why Sethra can't leave Dzur >Mountain as Sethra, but can as Kiera. I have a theory (and it goes along >w/ why she looks tired when Vlad sees her later): She can't leave Dzur >Mountain at that time because the Jenoine might mught detect her (or what >ever it is they do) as Sethra. Loiosh didn't recognize Kiera as Sethra, so >maybe the Jenoine couldn't either. Anyway, that's just what I think. You >can put it on your sites and in your own words cause I am horrible at >making sense (just give me a little credit, ok). I don't think that Sethra is confined to Dzur Mountain, it's just that she chooses not to leave. She was in charge of the defense of Adrilankha in _Sethra Lavode_, was she not? And hasn't she been seen at Castle Black? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 11:04:51 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:04:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gray on Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041112190451.52696.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Just a note for Dusty, whose messages I deleted before I realized I wanted to respond. "Grey" [*] is not only one of the Jhereg colors; it's also the color of death. "Grey humor" in _Issola_ means our "black humor". [*] Only my great enjoyment of Steve's books allows me to put up with "grey", which drives me crazy, especially in combination with American "color" and "humor". Oh well, we all have different ways to lose our sanity. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 11:15:13 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:15:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041112191513.50919.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jeff G." wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Schultz" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:02 AM > Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on > Dragaeran > life, culture, and art.) > > > Interesting that people have tried this and reported their results. I > think > I'd want to make sure that the woods used were free of additives or > naturally-occuring poisons. I suppose your average tree is safe enough, > though. If you can throw it on the fire to flavor food with the smoke, > then > I suppose you ought to be able to strain coffee through it. I think that's true. People chew on pencils, get splinters, etc. Wood is generally pretty safe. With exceptions. > I get the impression that Stephen never expected anyone to actually try > it. > *heh* Still, cinnamon is just ground up tree bark so it's not that > far-fetched. There's also a Middle Eastern flavoring called "zater" (sp?), which is largely ground sumac bark. Quite tasty on bread with olive oil. > For the people who have tried this, did you actually build a filter as > described in the book or did you simply boil the wood chips and > eggshells in > the water along with the coffee and then strain it out? > > On a semi-related note, I was curious about the relationship of > eggshells to > coffee so I did a search and the very first item on the results was > this: > > http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html - June Meyer's > Authentic Hungarian > Egg Coffee > > The idea of mixing eggs in your coffee is, I suppose, not qualitatively > different than mixing sawdust with it. *heh* I'm not sure if the egg > changes > the coffee in some way or if the eggshell is really the magic ingredient > but > I might try it for kicks one of these days. I suspect that eggshell is the magic ingredient. It's mostly calcium carbonate, which is a base and thus probably neutralizes the acids that cause what Vlad calls bitterness. Accordingly, I'd make klava with light-roasted, "full-bodied" beans. Dark roasting destroys the acids at the cost of destroying other flavors and giving you the taste of charcoal. If the acids are being neutralized in another way, you probably don't need much roasting. I don't even like coffee (though it's possible I might like klava). I don't know why this kind of topic has such a weird fascination for me. Anyway, I'd enjoy seeing a detailed description of how to make good klava. > ********************* > > I thought he was referring to a coffee press > http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/presspot There's a step called "Even Steven", even. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Fri Nov 12 11:41:14 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:41:14 -0500 Subject: Dzur Mnt. In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041112134936.02f445c0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041112134936.02f445c0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20041112194114.GB25124@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 01:51:51PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 12:35 11/12/2004 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say or ask > >something already said or asked, I appologize. > >I have only ever seen one theory as to why Sethra can't leave Dzur > >Mountain as Sethra, but can as Kiera. . . . > I don't think that Sethra is confined to Dzur Mountain, it's just that she > chooses not to leave. She was in charge of the defense of Adrilankha in > _Sethra Lavode_, was she not? And hasn't she been seen at Castle Black? I think MedCat is over-generalizing. There was a brief period of time when Sethra couldn't leave Dzur Mountain, but it was because she was dealing with a local emergency. Both before that situation and after it was over she could move around at will. -- I have the same reaction to those who survive a disaster, and say "God must have been watching over me." Ok - but what does that say about the people who didn't survive? Does God have bandwidth issues? -- Chris Clayton, private email <4194CEB8.8060806 at di.org> From alexx at panix.com Fri Nov 12 12:03:12 2004 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:03:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War In-Reply-To: <56F1B688.4186C509.00184D6D@aol.com> from "MedCat7@aol.com" at Nov 12, 2004 12:42:01 PM Message-ID: <200411122003.iACK3Cu04568@panix2.panix.com> > > I am reading the Taltos Novels for the third time (this time afer reading FG and FHYA). I am confused as to which Jhereg was killed that was under Adron's care that started the war and resulted ing Adron's disaster. Adron's Disaster was the result of a screw up. I know stories get crossed (especially w/ Vlad) and Aliera might not have known the truth, but I just got really confused. Can someone please help me with that? Thank you with all my heart. It is indeed a complicated mess. My own analysis can be found in my Dragaera Timeline , at the entry for "~440 BI". Hope it helps. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Alvays remember -- Any plan vere you lose you HAT is a BAD PLAN!" -- Girl Genius From dustysayers at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 12:10:46 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:10:46 -0500 Subject: Gray on Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20041112190451.52696.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041112190451.52696.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <419518C6.7010102@earthlink.net> Jerry Friedman wrote: >Just a note for Dusty, whose messages I deleted before I realized >I wanted to respond. "Grey" [*] is not only one of the Jhereg >colors; it's also the color of death. "Grey humor" in _Issola_ >means our "black humor". > A good point that I'm embarassed not to have noticed. I'll blame a long day at work, or something similar... perhaps the grey weather outside. :-) > >[*] Only my great enjoyment of Steve's books allows me to put up >with "grey", which drives me crazy, especially in combination >with American "color" and "humor". Oh well, we all have different >ways to lose our sanity. > >Jerry Friedman > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. >www.yahoo.com > > > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.' --C S Lewis From howard at brazee.net Fri Nov 12 12:17:33 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:17:33 -0700 Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: <20041112191513.50919.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041112191513.50919.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:15:13 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: > I suspect that eggshell is the magic ingredient. It's mostly calcium > carbonate, which is a base and thus probably neutralizes the acids > that cause what Vlad calls bitterness. > Accordingly, I'd make klava with light-roasted, "full-bodied" beans. > Dark roasting destroys the acids at the cost of destroying other > flavors and giving you the taste of charcoal. If the acids are > being neutralized in another way, you probably don't need much > roasting. > I don't even like coffee (though it's possible I might like klava). > I don't know why this kind of topic has such a weird fascination > for me. Anyway, I'd enjoy seeing a detailed description > of how to make good klava. I've read that Starbucks roasts their coffee more than most companies. Critics say they burn it. They have been quite successful using a stronger flavored bean - usually with a bunch of other ingrediants such as chocolate and sugar that would make a more subtile flavor bean harder to taste. There is a wide variety of coffee types in this world. Have you ever ordered Vietnamese coffee at a restauraunt? It takes a while for it to seep through, so if you're in a hurry, ask for it while you're still eating. The country that is most addicted to coffee is Turkey. Turkey is a fascinating country, and should be studied by fantasy authors. Interesting geographic formations, interesting religious differences, interesting for being in the middle of things. And very interesting customs that overshadow everything else. Watch the way they drink coffee. Watch the way they smoke. Even the way they shave (with the grain lasts only a couple of days - against the grain lasts longer). The movie _Hamam_ is worth renting: Francesco and Marta are husband and wife running a small design company in Rome. When Francesco's long forgotten Aunt Anita dies in Istanbul, he travels there to look after the sale of the hamam (one of a few traditional Turkish baths left) he inherited. There he meets the family running the hamam, gets attracted to a member of it and the whole Turkish atmosphere and decides not to sell the hamam. Even while he can use his Italian cell phones, Turkey is alien. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Nov 12 13:23:00 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:23:00 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Dzur Mnt. Message-ID: <52D2EE40.56A45B2A.00184D6D@aol.com> It's not that I over generalized....I meant at that time (when she said to Vlad that she couldn't leave). -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Simmons Subject: Re: Dzur Mnt. Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:41:14 -0500 Size: 2731 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041112/8c009d1a/attachment.mht From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 12 08:28:50 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:28:50 -0800 Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War In-Reply-To: <200411122003.iACK3Cu04568@panix2.panix.com> References: <200411122003.iACK3Cu04568@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: <1100276929.32218.365.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 12:03, Alexx Kay wrote: > > > > I am reading the Taltos Novels for the third time (this time afer reading FG and FHYA). I am confused as to which Jhereg was killed that was under Adron's care that started the war and resulted ing Adron's disaster. Adron's Disaster was the result of a screw up. I know stories get crossed (especially w/ Vlad) and Aliera might not have known the truth, but I just got really confused. Can someone please help me with that? Thank you with all my heart. > > It is indeed a complicated mess. My own analysis can be found in my > Dragaera Timeline , at the entry > for "~440 BI". Hope it helps. > This is a good time for me to mention that I really like that timeline, and it's been very helpful to me several times. Thanks, Alexx. From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 14:15:49 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:15:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: <16c701c4c8d1$0d0b4920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20041112221549.52698.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> -- Scott Schultz wrote: > > On a semi-related note, I was curious about the relationship of eggshells to > coffee so I did a search and the very first item on the results was this: > > http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html - June Meyer's > Authentic Hungarian > Egg Coffee > > The idea of mixing eggs in your coffee is, I suppose, not qualitatively > different than mixing sawdust with it. *heh* I'm not sure if the egg changes > the coffee in some way or if the eggshell is really the magic ingredient but > I might try it for kicks one of these days. I have heard that when you make coffee by boiling the water with the grounds in it and you don't have the filter, adding eggshell makes the grounds settle, which presumably makes it easier to pour the coffee "off the top" while leaving the grounds on the bottom. I've never tried it. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 14:17:55 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:17:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War In-Reply-To: <200411122003.iACK3Cu04568@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: <20041112221755.83241.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexx Kay wrote: > "Alvays remember -- Any plan vere you lose you HAT is a BAD PLAN!" > -- Girl Genius "I'll drink to that!" -- Cheech Wizard __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From alexx at panix.com Fri Nov 12 14:48:14 2004 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:48:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War In-Reply-To: <1100276929.32218.365.camel@localhost> from "Steve Brust" at Nov 12, 2004 08:28:50 AM Message-ID: <200411122248.iACMmE102554@panix3.panix.com> > > This is a good time for me to mention that I really like that timeline, > and it's been very helpful to me several times. > > Thanks, Alexx. You are most welcome. You might express your gratitude by finishing up the next book, already :-) [I know, I am pot calling kettle black -- I still haven't finished the Timeline updates for the last book. Sigh.] Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "I've never tried dividing both sides by infinity before, so here goes." [Cambridge University Math Dept.] From alexx at panix.com Fri Nov 12 14:49:50 2004 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:49:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War In-Reply-To: <6508AFBB.5A36B1C0.00184D6D@aol.com> from "MedCat7@aol.com" at Nov 12, 2004 04:24:55 PM Message-ID: <200411122249.iACMnoF03719@panix3.panix.com> > > > It is indeed a complicated mess. My own analysis can be found in my > > Dragaera Timeline , at the entry > > for "~440 BI". Hope it helps. > > I am sure it would help, but the link isn't working! Thank you though. Hm, it was up now when I just checked it. Try again? Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "I think something happened in the middle eighties. Basically, all of our dreams came true and turned out to have been small dreams after all." -- Alan Moore, in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From books at bofh.com Fri Nov 12 20:57:27 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:57:27 -0700 Subject: Dzur Mnt. In-Reply-To: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041113045727.GA7778@bofh.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:35:45PM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say or >ask something already said or asked, I appologize. Welcome. :) > I have only ever seen one theory as to why Sethra can't leave >Dzur Mountain as Sethra, but can as Kiera. I have a theory (and it >goes along w/ why she looks tired when Vlad sees her later): She > can't leave Dzur Mountain at that time because the Jenoine >might mught detect her (or what ever it is they do) as Sethra. >Loiosh didn't recognize Kiera as Sethra, so maybe the Jenoine couldn't >either. Anyway, that's just what I think. You can put it on your >sites and in your own words cause I am horrible at making >sense (just give me a little credit, ok). Ok, I have a few problems with this idea. 1) The Jenoine are weird creatures where physical locality doesn't mean much to them, so whether Sethra is at Dzur Mountain or not, it probably doesn't occur to them. 2) Loiosh _does_ recognize that there is something familiar about Sethra, so the disguise isn't perfect. (In retrospect we know why :) 3) Buddy (a dog) recognizes that Kiera isn't what she seems with no issues. Fundamentally our problem is that Steven has said that he is perfectly happy with this mystery and has no intention of clarifying it for us. (At least in the near future....I suspect it will be cleared up to a degree in another book...We have a few left). -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Fri Nov 12 21:00:18 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:00:18 -0700 Subject: Dzur Mnt. In-Reply-To: <20041113045727.GA7778@bofh.com> References: <20F87E7C.4AFF1FED.00184D6D@aol.com> <20041113045727.GA7778@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20041113050018.GB7778@bofh.com> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 09:57:27PM -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:35:45PM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say or > >ask something already said or asked, I appologize. > > Welcome. :) > > > I have only ever seen one theory as to why Sethra can't leave > >Dzur Mountain as Sethra, but can as Kiera. I have a theory (and it [*snippage*] I forgot #4, it is somewhat covered in the FAQ :) http://www.bofh.com/books/brust-faq.html#kiera -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Nov 12 22:49:44 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:49:44 EST Subject: Dzur Mnt. Message-ID: > Spoiler for Orca and all other Vlad books involved. > > > > > > Please remember there are always new readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > * added to make it harder for Dragaera search to find this. Even though it is a little too late for this thread. MedCat7.aol.com wrote on Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:35:45 -0500 >Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say >or ask something already said or asked, I apologize. I have only >ever seen one theory as to why S*thra can't leave Dzur Mountain as >S*thra, but can as K*era. I have a theory (and it goes along w/ >why she looks tired when Vlad sees her later): She can't leave >Dzur Mountain at that time because the Jenoine might detect >her (or what ever it is they do) as S*thra. Loiosh didn't recognize >K*era as S*thra, so maybe the Jenoine couldn't either. Anyway, >that's just what I think. You can put it on your sites and in >your own words cause I am horrible at making sense (just give me a little credit, ok). Welcome Crystal, Ah ha, the mystery in Taltos(Chapter 2)of why K*era has a drink with Vlad, but then S*thra says "It is impossible for me to leave Dzur Mountain at the moment." Taltos (Chapter 3) From: Howard Brazee on Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:40:54 -0700 >I don't think that an ordinary disguise would even be noticed by the >Jenoine. But it might be possible for her to take off some powers >(leave them behind - with IceFlame), and be disguised from them. For some reason, I always thought there was some shape-shifting involved. on Crystal's idea >that the Jenoine might detect her (or what ever it is they do) >as S*thra. Loiosh didn't recognize K*era as S*thra, so maybe >the Jenoine couldn't either. Jot Powers wrote on Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:57:27 -0700 >Ok, I have a few problems with this idea. >1) The Jenoine are weird creatures where physical locality >doesn't mean much to them, so whether S*thra is at Dzur Mountain >or not, it probably doesn't occur to them. >2) Loiosh _does_ recognize that there is something familiar about >S*ethra, so the disguise isn't perfect. (In retrospect we know why :) >3) Buddy (a dog) recognizes that K*era isn't what she seems with >no issues. and Jot Powers wrote on Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:00:18 -0700 >I forgot #4, it is somewhat covered in the FAQ :) >http://www.bofh.com/books/brust-faq.html#kiera 1) Hmmm, the only two people who the Jenoine have kidnapped had Great Weapons. Maybe the Jenoine can track Great Weapons. There is some sort of connection between Dzur Mountain and Iceflame and the Jenoine might be able to detect that they do not occupy the same place at the same time. As Crystal said "Jenoine might detect her (or what ever it is they do) as S*thra." The drink with Vlad occurs entirely inside a building. Hmmm, K*era could have teleported inside the building and teleported back to Dzur Mountain without every going outside. Eyes in the sky or overcast??? Vampire! Overcast! Is it daylight outside? Iceflame might be pretty useful to a vampire. 2. Taltos Chapter 7 "Have we ever run into her before?" I still want to believe this has more to do with Vlad and Loiosh's memory being messed with in Taltos and that this is a hint of a prior meeting with S*thra. Taltos end of Chapter 5 "Sorry, Sethra, not this time." 3) Buddy has a very good nose and can smell the undead better than Loiosh can. 4). 17 minutes! The Jenoine are very slow to react. All together it might just work. Crystal's idea: Jenoine do not recognize K*era. Howard's idea : Leave Iceflame at home. http://www.bofh.com/books/brust-faq.html#kiera : Be back in 17 minutes. Bye. Linda G. From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat Nov 13 10:32:02 2004 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:32:02 -0500 Subject: Dzur Mnt. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041113132854.02f3c720@pop.east.cox.net> At 01:49 11/13/2004 -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > Spoiler for Orca and all other Vlad books involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please remember there are always new readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >* added to make it harder for Dragaera search to find this. Even >though it is a little too late for this thread. > >MedCat7.aol.com wrote on Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:35:45 -0500 > > >Hi, My name is Crystal. I am new to the mailing list so if I say > >or ask something already said or asked, I apologize. I have only > >ever seen one theory as to why S*thra can't leave Dzur Mountain as > >S*thra, but can as K*era. I have a theory (and it goes along w/ > >why she looks tired when Vlad sees her later): She can't leave > >Dzur Mountain at that time because the Jenoine might detect > >her (or what ever it is they do) as S*thra. Loiosh didn't recognize > >K*era as S*thra, so maybe the Jenoine couldn't either. Anyway, > >that's just what I think. You can put it on your sites and in > >your own words cause I am horrible at making sense (just >give me a little credit, ok). > >Welcome Crystal, > >Ah ha, the mystery in Taltos(Chapter 2)of why K*era has a drink >with Vlad, but then S*thra says "It is impossible for >me to leave Dzur Mountain at the moment." Taltos (Chapter 3) I always took this as written--e.g., "at the moment". Sethra may have a reason to remain at Dzur Mountain (which is none of Vlad's business), or else, Kiera has an appointment someplace. I've told people I couldn't leave the house right now, and that only means "right now". -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Nov 13 15:24:13 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:24:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: <20041112191513.50919.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041113232413.8574.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> Scott Schultz wrote: >>>> I'd want to make sure that the woods used were free of additives or naturally-occuring poisons. I suppose your average tree is safe enough, though. <<<< There is no such thing as the average tree. Have you ever met an average family, with 2.13 children (or whatever the number is)? Google is your friend: "bark toxic wood" (w/o quotes) yields as the 2nd hit: http://www.ci.tucson.az.us/arthazards/wood2.html Health & Safety in the Arts A Searchable Database of Health & Safety Information for Artists Wood Working Toxic Woods -- mark by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Nov 13 16:14:06 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:14:06 EST Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1e2.2efe2cc5.2ec7fd4e@aol.com> Today's magic lesson is from the sorcerer and Dzurlord Tazendra on charging a flash-stone using (Orb before the Interregnum) sorcery. "she spent a good many hours--six, in fact--poring over a common piece of rock, first smoothing it, then bathing it in the products of her small alembic, then using a fine stylus to carve the proper symbols upon it, and at last making arcane passes over it while chanting a few words in the language of the Serioli, of which she had at least memorized what she needed to know. The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Seventeenth page 175 From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 15 06:00:08 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:00:08 -0500 Subject: Ideas Message-ID: <52C13E92.12DE3A14.00184D6D@aol.com> Crystal's idea: Jenoine do not recognize K*era. Howard's idea : Leave Iceflame at home. That'ts exactly waht I was thinking! She never carries Iceflame with her as K*era and Great Weapon's are linked to souls and who ever has a Great Weapon always has it with them! -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 15 08:22:57 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:22:57 +0000 Subject: 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War Message-ID: <4697B9D4.643C7465.00184D6D@aol.com> > It is indeed a complicated mess. My own analysis can be found in my > > Dragaera Timeline , at the entry > > for "~440 BI". Hope it helps. > > I am sure it would help, but the link isn't working! Thank you though. Hm, it was up now when I just checked it. Try again? Alexx It works now. Thank you, Alexx. It helped a wicked lot! -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 15 08:27:42 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:27:42 -0500 Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) Message-ID: <5D75FD81.4BB23FD7.00184D6D@aol.com> On a semi-related note, I was curious about the relationship of eggshells to > coffee so I did a search and the very first item on the results was this: > > http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html - June Meyer's > Authentic Hungarian > Egg Coffee I am so gonna try this! I love new food (or in this case drink). Has anyone ever tried Thai Iced Tea? It is soooo good! -Crystal From casey at the-bat.net Mon Nov 15 08:31:57 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:31:57 -0500 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <52C13E92.12DE3A14.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: Crystal wrote: > > Crystal's idea: Jenoine do not recognize K*era. > Howard's idea : Leave Iceflame at home. > > That'ts exactly waht I was thinking! She never carries > Iceflame with her as K*era and Great Weapon's are linked to > souls and who ever has a Great Weapon always has it with them! > There's a moment, I think in Orca, when Vlad half expects Iceflame to appear in her hand at an inappropriate time. Not sure if that indicates Iceflame is there, but hidden, or not there at all which explains its failure to appear. Casey From corwin at mpls.cx Mon Nov 15 10:05:45 2004 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: 15 Nov 2004 12:05:45 -0600 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <1100540526.19483.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100540526.19483.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100541944.19483.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 10:31, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Crystal wrote: > > > > Crystal's idea: Jenoine do not recognize K*era. > > Howard's idea : Leave Iceflame at home. > > > > That'ts exactly waht I was thinking! She never carries > > Iceflame with her as K*era and Great Weapon's are linked to > > souls and who ever has a Great Weapon always has it with them! > > > > There's a moment, I think in Orca, when Vlad half expects Iceflame to appear > in her hand at an inappropriate time. Not sure if that indicates Iceflame > is there, but hidden, or not there at all which explains its failure to > appear. When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like "You nearly did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory that She carries (but won't use) the Great Weapon. C From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 15 09:37:31 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:37:31 -0500 Subject: ??? Message-ID: <42B1404D.0F776BEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Has anyone tried drawing or painting pictures of any of the people or animals on Dragaera based on the discriptions in the Dragaera books? If anyone has or if you know of anyone who has please let me know. I love to draw and I was hopeing of maybe comapring art work with him. I really would appriciate you help! -Crystal From attjen at gwu.edu Mon Nov 15 10:00:56 2004 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:00:56 -0500 Subject: Concerning things graphical... Message-ID: <6f922fb6f96a53.6f96a536f922fb@gwu.edu> (question for Steve, with plenty of maneuver room for a mysterious pithy response) I have recently been trying to shore up my Neil Gaiman knowledge and recently swept through one volume of Sandman and the recent Marvel 1602. (And then looked back on the list to remind myself of your oh-so-fond remembrances of "Jar-head: The Graphic Novel"...) Which naturally begs the question, assuming you could actually do it, would you give your blessing/time for another try at a graphic novel? and if I might be allowed a follow-up, what about animation? (The possibilities are endless, and its definitely a interesting medium for fantasy. Personally, I'd imagine the Vlad novels as a cross between Samurai Jack and the films of Hiyao Miyasaki....) I'm just curious about how willing you would be for those kind of interpretations of your work nowadays... Attjen From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 15 10:01:54 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:01:54 -0700 Subject: Ideas References: <1100540526.19483.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100541944.19483.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Remember what Morrolan does with his wand? Maybe the same kind of thing. She probably has it with her, but disguised as something else or not on that plane of existence. That's what I do with all of my excess baggage. Call Libby- Burroughs Space warp and storage, they can hook you up. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corwin Brust" To: Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: RE: Ideas > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 10:31, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Crystal wrote: > > > > > > Crystal's idea: Jenoine do not recognize K*era. > > > Howard's idea : Leave Iceflame at home. > > > > > > That'ts exactly waht I was thinking! She never carries > > > Iceflame with her as K*era and Great Weapon's are linked to > > > souls and who ever has a Great Weapon always has it with them! > > > > > > > There's a moment, I think in Orca, when Vlad half expects Iceflame to appear > > in her hand at an inappropriate time. Not sure if that indicates Iceflame > > is there, but hidden, or not there at all which explains its failure to > > appear. > > When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like "You nearly > did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory that She carries (but > won't use) the Great Weapon. > > C > > From s1burns at ucsd.edu Mon Nov 15 10:23:29 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:23:29 -0800 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <1100541944.19483.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200411151823.iAFINTTi027884@smtp.ucsd.edu> -----Original Message----- From: Corwin Brust [mailto:corwin at mpls.cx] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:06 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Ideas On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 10:31, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Crystal wrote: > > > > Crystal's idea: Jenoine do not recognize K*era. > > Howard's idea : Leave Iceflame at home. > > > > That'ts exactly waht I was thinking! She never carries Iceflame with > > her as K*era and Great Weapon's are linked to souls and who ever has > > a Great Weapon always has it with them! > > > > There's a moment, I think in Orca, when Vlad half expects Iceflame to > appear in her hand at an inappropriate time. Not sure if that > indicates Iceflame is there, but hidden, or not there at all which > explains its failure to appear. >When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like "You nearly did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory >>> >that She carries (but won't use) the Great Weapon. >C Or that Sethra can call Iceflame to her from wherever she stashed it. Can sorcery teleport objects to the sorcerer? (We know Vlad can use witchcraft to perform a very long ritual that calls things to him....) Shawn From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Nov 15 10:40:26 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:40:26 -0800 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <1100541944.19483.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > -----Original Message----- > From: Corwin Brust [mailto:corwin at mpls.cx] > When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like > "You nearly did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory > that She carries (but won't use) the Great Weapon. Granted that the population of Great Weapon Wielders we've been exposed to is a small one, it seems, purely from observation, that owners of such weapons seem to always have them about their person someplace. I'd go with the "carries it hidden on her person" theory. On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of Godslayer seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and Aliera's cases, the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them experienced a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also fundamentally different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective weapons. From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 15 10:46:09 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:46:09 -0700 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <1100541944.19483.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100540526.19483.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100541944.19483.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 15 Nov 2004 12:05:45 -0600, Corwin Brust wrote: >> > That'ts exactly waht I was thinking! She never carries >> > Iceflame with her as K*era and Great Weapon's are linked to >> > souls and who ever has a Great Weapon always has it with them! >> > >> >> There's a moment, I think in Orca, when Vlad half expects Iceflame to >> appear >> in her hand at an inappropriate time. Not sure if that indicates >> Iceflame >> is there, but hidden, or not there at all which explains its failure to >> appear. > When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like "You nearly > did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory that She carries (but > won't use) the Great Weapon. Minimally, if she has to use IceFlame when she's out "playing", she has to admit she lost. I don't see her playing though with the ability to cheat. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 15 10:50:56 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:50:56 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:40:26 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > Granted that the population of Great Weapon Wielders we've been exposed > to > is a small one, it seems, purely from observation, that owners of such > weapons seem to always have them about their person someplace. I'd go > with the "carries it hidden on her person" theory. Sethra's game playing isn't designed to be without grave consequences should she loose. Not unless she's not the person we see her to be. > On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of > Godslayer > seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and Aliera's > cases, > the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them > experienced > a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was > intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of > Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also > fundamentally > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective > weapons. How about Sethra the Younger? Twice? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Nov 15 10:57:55 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:57:55 -0800 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <346c01c4cb45$03e49330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Minimally, if she has to use IceFlame when she's out > "playing", she has to > admit she lost. I don't see her playing though with the > ability to cheat. While it's true Sethra takes pride in having "never cheated" that doesn't mean that she would never do so if the stakes were high enough. If it came down to "losing" or dying, she'd admit defeat and whip out whatever safeguards she keeps handy for such occasions. I'd assume those safeguards include ready access to Iceflame. Maybe Vlad will ask her about it someday. Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Nov 15 11:09:26 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:09:26 -0800 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <34da01c4cb46$9fc53fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Sethra's game playing isn't designed to be without grave > consequences > should she loose. Not unless she's not the person we see her to be. I'm not convinced that's really true. Her "game" is more of a hobby and a personal challenge. A test of her abilities and in the case of a handful of fortunate people, a chance to have friends that she couldn't otherwise cultivate because of her position and reputation. Would she accept imprisonment? Certainly. There's probably no prison that can hold her anyway. Torture? Maybe. Permanent bodily harm? Possibly, depending on whether we're talking scars or maiming. Death? I don't think so. Her "game" IS just a game. Something to while away a rather long lifetime. Her responsibilities (such as we know of them) require her to be alive and well in order to carry them out. She can't very well do that if she allows herself to be harmed as "just desserts" for having lost at her "game". > > > It makes me wonder if his connection to [Godslayer] is also > > fundamentally > > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective > > weapons. > > How about Sethra the Younger? Twice? Not sure what you're driving at here... From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 15 11:15:34 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:15:34 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons References: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: Great Weapons > -----Original Message----- > From: Corwin Brust [mailto:corwin at mpls.cx] > When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like > "You nearly did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory > that She carries (but won't use) the Great Weapon. Granted that the population of Great Weapon Wielders we've been exposed to is a small one, it seems, purely from observation, that owners of such weapons seem to always have them about their person someplace. I'd go with the "carries it hidden on her person" theory. On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of Godslayer seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and Aliera's cases, the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them experienced a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also fundamentally different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective weapons. **************** No, we know that PF is linked to Aliera's soul, that's how she survived being struck with a Morganti weapon. Also, Sethra remarks on Morrolan's link with Pathfinder when discussing his assassination with Vlad. Actually, there are a great deal of references throughout most of the novels, especially Issola. Jeff From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Nov 15 11:29:02 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:29:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Corwin Brust [mailto:corwin at mpls.cx] > > When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like > > "You nearly did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory > > that She carries (but won't use) the Great Weapon. > > Granted that the population of Great Weapon Wielders we've been exposed to > is a small one, it seems, purely from observation, that owners of such > weapons seem to always have them about their person someplace. I'd go with > the "carries it hidden on her person" theory. I wouldn't go so far as to say "on their person at all times", but the kidnapping of Aliera and Morrolan in _Issola_ seems to indicate that wielder and sword aren't seperable, as presumably the J would have done so if it were possible (well, ok, maybe the J wouldn't bother or don't think in terms of "separation" but I dislike this line of thought.) From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Nov 15 11:35:47 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:35:47 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: jeff [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 2:16 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Great Weapons > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Schultz" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:40 AM > Subject: Great Weapons > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Corwin Brust [mailto:corwin at mpls.cx] > > When Vlad voices this expectation, She say something like > > "You nearly did." (IIRC) Which seems to support the theory > > that She carries (but won't use) the Great Weapon. > > Granted that the population of Great Weapon Wielders we've been exposed to > is a small one, it seems, purely from observation, that owners of such > weapons seem to always have them about their person someplace. I'd go with > the "carries it hidden on her person" theory. > > On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of Godslayer > seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and Aliera's > cases, > the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them > experienced > a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was > intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of > Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also fundamentally > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective > weapons. > > > **************** > > No, we know that PF is linked to Aliera's soul, that's how she survived > being struck with a Morganti weapon. Also, Sethra remarks on Morrolan's > link > with Pathfinder when discussing his assassination with Vlad. Actually, > there > are a great deal of references throughout most of the novels, especially > Issola. > > Jeff Perhaps it hasn't been mentioned because it's a rather personal subject. From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 15 11:31:50 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:31:50 -0700 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <346c01c4cb45$03e49330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <346c01c4cb45$03e49330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:57:55 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > While it's true Sethra takes pride in having "never cheated" that doesn't > mean that she would never do so if the stakes were high enough. If it > came > down to "losing" or dying, she'd admit defeat and whip out whatever > safeguards she keeps handy for such occasions. I'd assume those > safeguards > include ready access to Iceflame. Maybe Vlad will ask her about it > someday. What house is she most closely related to? Would members of that house cheat? Unless she were sworn to a higher power. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 15 11:35:52 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:35:52 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <34da01c4cb46$9fc53fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <34da01c4cb46$9fc53fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:09:26 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: >> > It makes me wonder if his connection to [Godslayer] is also >> > fundamentally >> > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective >> > weapons. >> >> How about Sethra the Younger? Twice? > > Not sure what you're driving at here... > >> On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of >> Godslayer >> seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and Aliera's >> cases, >> the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them >> experienced >> a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was >> intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of >> Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also >> fundamentally >> different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective >> weapons. How did she get her weapon(s)? If we are extrapolating Great Weapon aquisition from the small sample we have available - let's include all examples. She *took* her first weapon, and basically traded for her second one. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 15 11:37:04 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:37:04 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:29:02 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: > I wouldn't go so far as to say "on their person at all times", but the > kidnapping of Aliera and Morrolan in _Issola_ seems to indicate that > wielder and sword aren't seperable, as presumably the J would have done > so > if it were possible (well, ok, maybe the J wouldn't bother or don't think > in terms of "separation" but I dislike this line of thought.) Or don't recognize a wielder without his weapon. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 15 11:50:55 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:50:55 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <34da01c4cb46$9fc53fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <4199089F.7090602@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:09:26 -0800, Scott Schultz > wrote: > > >>> > It makes me wonder if his connection to [Godslayer] is also >>> > fundamentally >>> > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective >>> > weapons. >>> >>> How about Sethra the Younger? Twice? >> >> >> Not sure what you're driving at here... >> >>> On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of >>> Godslayer >>> seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and >>> Aliera's cases, >>> the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them >>> experienced >>> a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was >>> intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of >>> Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also >>> fundamentally >>> different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective >>> weapons. > > > How did she get her weapon(s)? If we are extrapolating Great Weapon > aquisition from the small sample we have available - let's include all > examples. She *took* her first weapon, and basically traded for her > second one. Sethra the Younger has never had a Great Weapon (at least in the span of time we've seen in the books). Pathfinder was not "released" when StY grabbed it (otherwise, Vlad would have ended up with it by that logic, as he grabbed it first; also, it might have done more to save Fornia's life); it had to come into contact with Blackwand. And since we don't know the exact sequence of events, it is entirely possible that she was not touching it when it was released. Or that may be irrelevant; maybe Pathfinder was destined for Aliera and Aliera only once Baritt died, and it was just a matter of time. On another note, Kieron's Greatsword is not described as a Great Weapon; i.e., Vlad never makes his obligatory comments on how being around it gives him the willies. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com \ binary, and those who don't. From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Nov 15 12:25:11 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:25:11 -0500 Subject: Klava (WAS:RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.) In-Reply-To: <20041113232413.8574.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041112191513.50919.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4198CA57.7146.15A3DFF@localhost> On 13 Nov 2004 at 15:24, Mark A. Mandel wrote > > There is no such thing as the average tree. Have you ever met an > average family, with 2.13 children (or whatever the number is)? > There was one in "Phantom Tollbooth" by Norton Juster. I think he was .6 of a child. I can't remember his name, but Milo meets him on the stairs to infinity. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Nov 15 08:14:24 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:14:24 -0800 Subject: Concerning things graphical... In-Reply-To: <6f922fb6f96a53.6f96a536f922fb@gwu.edu> References: <6f922fb6f96a53.6f96a536f922fb@gwu.edu> Message-ID: <1100535264.673.21.camel@localhost> I dunno. I don't really think about that stuff. On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 10:00, Matthew Jennings wrote: > (question for Steve, with plenty of maneuver room for a mysterious pithy response) > > I have recently been trying to shore up my Neil Gaiman knowledge and recently swept through one volume of Sandman and the recent Marvel 1602. (And then looked back on the list to remind myself of your oh-so-fond remembrances of "Jar-head: The Graphic Novel"...) > > Which naturally begs the question, assuming you could actually do it, would you give your blessing/time for another try at a graphic novel? > > and if I might be allowed a follow-up, what about animation? (The possibilities are endless, and its definitely a interesting medium for fantasy. Personally, I'd imagine the Vlad novels as a cross between Samurai Jack and the films of Hiyao Miyasaki....) > > I'm just curious about how willing you would be for those kind of interpretations of your work nowadays... > > Attjen > > > From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Nov 15 13:31:12 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:31:12 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <343901c4cb42$92ca0650$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <4198D9D0.2823.196AECB@localhost> Spoilers (perhaps) for Orca On 15 Nov 2004 at 11:50, Howard Brazee wrote > > Sethra's game playing isn't designed to be without grave consequences > should she loose. Not unless she's not the person we see her to be. Do we know that loosing in her Kiera persona would have consequences for Sethra (aside from Sethra being miffed at losing)? Maybe it's like a video game for her. I don't like losing a player's life - but it doesn't actually physically harm me when it happens. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Nov 15 14:55:56 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:55:56 -0600 Subject: ??? In-Reply-To: <42B1404D.0F776BEA.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <42B1404D.0F776BEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <419933FC.5070304@comcast.net> Katherine Grantham, formerly Katherine Marsh, has done quite a bit. http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/ Mia MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >Has anyone tried drawing or painting pictures of any of the people or animals on Dragaera based on the discriptions in the Dragaera books? If anyone has or if you know of anyone who has please let me know. I love to draw and I was hopeing of maybe comapring art work with him. I really would appriciate you help! >-Crystal > > > From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Nov 15 15:28:32 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:28:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <34da01c4cb46$9fc53fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20041115232832.17077.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Schultz wrote: > > Sethra's game playing isn't designed to be without grave > > consequences > > should she loose. Not unless she's not the person we see her to be. > > I'm not convinced that's really true. Her "game" is more of a hobby and > a > personal challenge. A test of her abilities and in the case of a handful > of > fortunate people, a chance to have friends that she couldn't otherwise > cultivate because of her position and reputation. Would she accept > imprisonment? Certainly. There's probably no prison that can hold her > anyway. Torture? Maybe. Permanent bodily harm? Possibly, depending on > whether we're talking scars or maiming. Death? I don't think so. Jenoine conquest of Dragaera? Almost certainly not. Whether Sethra has Iceflame hidden on her person or can call it to herself quickly, she has access to it. Also, her secret isn't worth a life, even Vlad's--and giving away her secret would be one way of "losing". So I think it follows that she would use Iceflame to save her "life" (or just Vlad's, Savn's, Gesundheit's, the jheregs', and Buddy's). > Her "game" IS just a game. Something to while away a rather long > lifetime. > Her responsibilities (such as we know of them) require her to be alive "alive" > and > well in order to carry them out. She can't very well do that if she > allows > herself to be harmed as "just desserts" for having lost at her "game". Right. > > > It makes me wonder if his connection to [Godslayer] is also > > > fundamentally > > > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective > > > weapons. > > > > How about Sethra the Younger? Twice? > > Not sure what you're driving at here... Me neither. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 15 16:08:33 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:08:33 EST Subject: ??? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/15/2004 1:00:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: There are a few by Kathy Grantham at (same person as the Kathy Marshall who illustrated the Steeldragon Press first edition of _To Reign in Hell_, too). Thanx...I'll lookat them and let you know what I think! -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 15 16:15:00 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:15:00 EST Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: <103.54694517.2ecaa084@aol.com> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:02:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: On another note concerning Great Weapons - Vlad's acquisition of > Godslayer > seems to have been a unique experience. In both Morrolan and Aliera's > cases, > the sword was pretty much just handed to them. If either of them > experienced > a "soul bonding" moment at that time, it's gone unreported. Vlad was > intimately involved with the creation (or recreation, if you like) of > Godslayer.It makes me wonder if his connection to it is also > fundamentally > different than Morrolan and Aliera's connections to their respective > weapons. The thing to that is the story (well most of it) is told from Vlad's perspective. He would have no idea what it would be like for Aliera or Morrolan to aquire a Great Weapon. Plus, Vlad did recreate, so I would imagine his experiance would be quite different. -Crystal From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 15 16:53:15 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:53:15 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20041115232832.17077.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c4cb76$a8cb6d20$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Scott Schultz wrote: > Jenoine conquest of Dragaera? Almost certainly not. Whether Sethra > has Iceflame hidden on her person or can call it to herself quickly, > she has access to it. > > Also, her secret isn't worth a life, even Vlad's--and giving > away her secret would be one way of "losing". So I think it > follows that she would use Iceflame to save her "life" (or just > Vlad's, Savn's, Gesundheit's, the jheregs', and Buddy's). Remember the story about the fox and the scorpion? Dragaerans can say "It's my nature" when they do things that are otherwise irrational. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Nov 15 17:00:38 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:00:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <000901c4cb76$a8cb6d20$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000901c4cb76$a8cb6d20$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: > Remember the story about the fox and the scorpion? Dragaerans can say > "It's my nature" when they do things that are otherwise irrational. They can also say, "It's my values". Anyway, excellent fable reference. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Nov 15 18:31:40 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:31:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <346c01c4cb45$03e49330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20041116023140.12493.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> Scott Schultz > While it's true Sethra takes pride in having "never cheated" that doesn't mean that she would never do so if the stakes were high enough. If it came down to "losing" or dying, she'd admit defeat and whip out whatever safeguards she keeps handy for such occasions. I'd assume those safeguards include ready access to Iceflame. Maybe Vlad will ask her about it someday. << Sethra doesn't play games against the Jenoine. If she needs Iceflame for that, better believe she's never without it. -mark by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Nov 16 18:17:51 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:17:51 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <104.549f5dc1.2ecc0ecf@aol.com> Today's cooking recipe is from a street vendor, a Teckla named Raf, in Dragaera City: "the pastries are venison, and have, in addition, a filling of mushrooms, both of which ingredients were left for some hours in a marinade of wine and tarragon before being cooked together and folded into the pastry." . . . "deliciously warm from having been kept over the hot coals with which the cart was filled." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Third page 38 and 39 From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Nov 16 18:28:48 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:28:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <104.549f5dc1.2ecc0ecf@aol.com> References: <104.549f5dc1.2ecc0ecf@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > "the pastries are venison [...]" This strikes me as an odd ingredient for a street vendor to have easy access to, based on a vague feeling that historically kings or nobility have enforced a monopoly on the hunting of deer. Also, is this evidence of strong Dragaeran teeth? From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Nov 16 19:48:25 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:48:25 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <12e.5119df7b.2ecc2409@aol.com> In response to a recipe posted by FRIEDA2133.aol.com on Tue, 16 Nov 2004 > "the pastries are venison [...]" Philip Hart wrote on Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:28:48 -0800 (PST) >This strikes me as an odd ingredient for a street vendor to have >easy access to, based on a vague feeling that historically kings >or nobility have enforced a monopoly on the hunting of deer. Hi, It seems the Emperor had decided it was better to put a tax on meat than to have a monopoly on venison if there ever was one. "Well, between the new tax on wheat entering the city, and the new tax on meats" Five Hundred Years After page 40 Chapter the Third. Philip Hart wrote on Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:28:48 -0800 (PST) >Also, is this evidence of strong Dragaeran teeth? Recipe does say "ingredients were left for some hours in a marinade of wine and tarragon before being cooked together" Strong Dragaeran teeth? You mean like from the genes of a dragon, lyorn, tiassa, dzur or orca? Heh, all the recipes I have come across so far have contained meat. Bye. Linda G. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 17 04:54:45 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:54:45 -0700 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c4cca4$9dcda760$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> "the pastries are venison [...]" > > This strikes me as an odd ingredient for a street vendor to have > easy access to, based on a vague feeling that historically kings > or nobility have enforced a monopoly on the hunting of deer. Historically in England? Historically, those in power do what they can to own all resources, including game, land, and water. But there's nothing special about venison, other than in small countries, game preserves are owned by the crown. Dragaera seems to have plenty of land. > Also, is this evidence of strong Dragaeran teeth? Why? From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 17 09:51:31 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:51:31 -0500 Subject: SpOiLeR WaRnInG Message-ID: <5123FEA1.1AC1EDAE.00184D6D@aol.com> <> I thought this was cute and decided to share it w/ anyone who didn't see it. -Crystal From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 11:13:29 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:13:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <000a01c4cca4$9dcda760$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000a01c4cca4$9dcda760$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > >> "the pastries are venison [...]" > > > > This strikes me as an odd ingredient for a street vendor to have > > easy access to, based on a vague feeling that historically kings > > or nobility have enforced a monopoly on the hunting of deer. > > Historically in England? > > Historically, those in power do what they can to own all resources, > including game, land, and water. But there's nothing special about > venison, other than in small countries, game preserves are owned by the > crown. Dragaera seems to have plenty of land. The question might be, is there free forested land not overrun by nasty Dragaeran wildlife near enough to make transport of venison easy enough to make it economical for street merchants, even those catering to a wealthy clientele, to serve it instead of domesticated meat? Also note that Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are extremely uneconomical. > > Also, is this evidence of strong Dragaeran teeth? > > Why? The recipe didn't say anything about "ground venison"... Even if the meat is marinated, I'd think a venison medallion pastry would be tough going. Certainly ground venison with mushrooms compensating for the leanness would make a tasty pastry - whether one loses (any of? too much of?) the venison distinctiveness in so doing is beyond my meagre game expertise. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 17 11:33:03 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <200411171933.iAHJX3tN021207@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > The question might be, is there free forested land not overrun by nasty > Dragaeran wildlife near enough to make transport of venison easy enough to > make it economical for street merchants, even those catering to a wealthy > clientele, to serve it instead of domesticated meat? Also note that > Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. > Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are extremely > uneconomical. I'm not sure we know enough. Doesn't the chreotha(?) use a form of psionics to lure prey to their nets? I suspect a similar method could be used to lure deer (darr?:) to their end. Of course, envisioning a hunter walking into Dragaera playing a pipe with a herd of deer following sheep-like behind him doesn't quite lend itself to a sense of decorum, but if it puts the venison on the table... Just a thought. :0 Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 17 12:41:57 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:41:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041117204157.17923.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > > > >> "the pastries are venison [...]" > > > > > > This strikes me as an odd ingredient for a street vendor to have > > > easy access to, based on a vague feeling that historically kings > > > or nobility have enforced a monopoly on the hunting of deer. > > > > Historically in England? > > > > Historically, those in power do what they can to own all resources, > > including game, land, and water. But there's nothing special about > > venison, other than in small countries, game preserves are owned by > > the crown. Dragaera seems to have plenty of land. > > The question might be, is there free forested land not overrun by nasty > Dragaeran wildlife near enough to make transport of venison easy enough > to > make it economical for street merchants, even those catering to a > wealthy clientele, to serve it instead of domesticated meat? Deer can be raised domestically. I think that if you try to get venison in America, most of what you find will be from farms. > Also note that > Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. > Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are > extremely uneconomical. Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I can't remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with them in _Dragon_? > > > Also, is this evidence of strong Dragaeran teeth? > > > > Why? > > The recipe didn't say anything about "ground venison"... Even if the > meat > is marinated, I'd think a venison medallion pastry would be tough going. > Certainly ground venison with mushrooms compensating for the leanness > would make a tasty pastry - whether one loses (any of? too much of?) the > venison distinctiveness in so doing is beyond my meagre game expertise. Ground (or shredded or finely chopped) meat is what I would think of first for the filling of single-serving pastries. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 13:02:20 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:02:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <20041117204157.17923.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041117204157.17923.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: > Deer can be raised domestically. I think that if you try to get > venison in America, most of what you find will be from farms. Ok, that blows up this line. > > Also note that > > Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. > > Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are > > extremely uneconomical. > > Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I can't > remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with them in > _Dragon_? That, and various places in the Vladiad where a quarrel or arrow through someone's throat would simplify matters, and Paarfi's failure to mention them in various places where they would be apropos. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Nov 17 13:15:40 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:15:40 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:02:20 PST." Message-ID: <200411172115.iAHLFe0e023415@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> "Dragon" mentions a weapon called "spear-throwers" (iirc) which were not widely used. One of his messmates had to tell Vlad what they were. Perhaps the bow and arrow wasn't yet invented. > > > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > Deer can be raised domestically. I think that if you try to get > > venison in America, most of what you find will be from farms. > > Ok, that blows up this line. > > > > > Also note that > > > Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. > > > Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are > > > extremely uneconomical. > > > > Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I can't > > remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with them in > > _Dragon_? > > That, and various places in the Vladiad where a quarrel or arrow > through someone's throat would simplify matters, and Paarfi's failure > to mention them in various places where they would be apropos. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Nov 17 13:15:57 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:15:57 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:02:20 PST." Message-ID: <200411172115.iAHLFwwn023460@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> or maybe they were "javelin launchers" > > > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > Deer can be raised domestically. I think that if you try to get > > venison in America, most of what you find will be from farms. > > Ok, that blows up this line. > > > > > Also note that > > > Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. > > > Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are > > > extremely uneconomical. > > > > Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I can't > > remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with them in > > _Dragon_? > > That, and various places in the Vladiad where a quarrel or arrow > through someone's throat would simplify matters, and Paarfi's failure > to mention them in various places where they would be apropos. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 17 13:16:30 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:16:30 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <50D529F9.7BCBFEEF.00184D6D@aol.com> > Also note that > Dragaeran hunters use neither bows/arrows (is this true?) or firearms. > Other forms of deer hunting which I'm vaguely familiar with are > extremely uneconomical. Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I can't remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with them in _Dragon_? Or since Dragaerens are basically their namesake (ie dragon, issola, dzur) they might hunt simmilar to the animal. A Dragon might be able to keep pace w/ a deer and slice it's head off w/ a sword (whew this is tough...I love animals too much to think about this). Or if the hunter is a Chreotha, they might set a trap. Or if it's a Dzur hunter, well, lets not think of that....there might be nothing left to sell! -Crystal From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 13:21:57 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <200411172115.iAHLFwwn023460@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> References: <200411172115.iAHLFwwn023460@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> Message-ID: Javelin shooters, I thought. Powers-that-be, what would be required to get _Dragon_ etc scanned into the book search? Would a small emolument or donation to some charity be helpful? On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > or maybe they were "javelin launchers" From s1burns at ucsd.edu Wed Nov 17 13:41:37 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:41:37 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200411172146.iAHLkRTi017307@smtp.ucsd.edu> Atl-atl? -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:22 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Javelin shooters, I thought. Powers-that-be, what would be required to get _Dragon_ etc scanned into the book search? Would a small emolument or donation to some charity be helpful? On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > or maybe they were "javelin launchers" From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 14:56:39 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <200411172115.iAHLFe0e023415@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> References: <200411172115.iAHLFe0e023415@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> Message-ID: "Atlatl" is going to come in handy some Sunday doing the NYT crossword. Frieda (Linda?), check the book search for "lemon". From dgf at dd-b.net Wed Nov 17 15:17:02 2004 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Nov 2004 23:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20041117231702.17904.qmail@dd-b.net> abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zerika (at) gmail.com (email) Zerika zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 17 15:27:30 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:27:30 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: (Philip Hart's message of "Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:21:57 -0800 (PST)") References: <200411172115.iAHLFwwn023460@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > Javelin shooters, I thought. > > Powers-that-be, what would be required to get _Dragon_ etc scanned into > the book search? Would a small emolument or donation to some charity be > helpful? Volunteering, mostly. I've got one book in progress from scans another member sent me, just coordinated another volunteer to do a scan, and am badly overdue sending a copy of Brokedown Palace to another member for scanning (and could you send me your address if you're still interested? You know who you are!). Nobody currently doing dragon. (Since I've got permission from Steven and informal permission from Tor, your sending me a scanned copy is not I think dangerously illegal. *Making* it is very likely completely legal; you can do things like that for your own use. Sending it to most other people would be illegal and perhaps even dangerously illegal.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 17 15:34:00 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:34:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: <200411172115.iAHLFe0e023415@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20041117233400.29094.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: ... > > > Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I can't > > > remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with them > in > > > _Dragon_? > > > > That, and various places in the Vladiad where a quarrel or arrow > > through someone's throat would simplify matters, and Paarfi's failure > > to mention them in various places where they would be apropos. Hm. You probably also noticed what the dog did in the night. > "Dragon" mentions a weapon called "spear-throwers" (iirc) which were not > widely used. One of his messmates had to tell Vlad what they were. > Perhaps the bow and arrow wasn't yet invented. As long as we're all guessing while AWB, I remember them as "javelin throwers" (I don't think that one's taken yet), and I was pretty sure they *were* bows. That's the bit in _Dragon_ that I was thinking of when I said Vlad wasn't familiar with bows and arrows. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 17 15:39:38 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:39:38 -0700 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4ccfe$b4dbf510$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: > >>> Also, is this evidence of strong Dragaeran teeth? >> >> Why? > > The recipe didn't say anything about "ground venison"... Even if the > meat is marinated, I'd think a venison medallion pastry would be > tough going. Certainly ground venison with mushrooms compensating for > the leanness would make a tasty pastry - whether one loses (any of? > too much of?) the venison distinctiveness in so doing is beyond my > meagre game expertise. There are lots of native animals not brought over from Earth. Whatever translates as "venison" was probably translated for the purpose of this recipe for the flavor, but could be used to indicate an animal with antlers - which may or may not be domesticated. For all we know, it could have come from a feed lot after being fed beer all its life. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 15:46:31 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:46:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <000001c4ccfe$b4dbf510$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000001c4ccfe$b4dbf510$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Howard Brazee wrote: > There are lots of native animals not brought over from Earth. Whatever > translates as "venison" was probably translated for the purpose of this > recipe for the flavor, but could be used to indicate an animal with > antlers - which may or may not be domesticated. I'm reluctant to grant the translator that degree of sophistication, esp. given the number of non-terran (non-bluewhalean?) food products. > For all we know, it could have come from a feed lot after being fed beer > all its life. I first read that as "being fed bear" and wondered what kind of fierce deer you've got in your neck of the woods. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 17 15:53:08 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:53:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: <20041117233400.29094.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041117235309.34966.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: > ... > > > > > Why do you think they don't use bows and arrows? Something I > can't > > > > remember? (Quite likely.) Just that Vlad wasn't familiar with > them > > in > > > > _Dragon_? [Philip Hart:] > > > That, and various places in the Vladiad where a quarrel or arrow > > > through someone's throat would simplify matters, and Paarfi's > failure > > > to mention them in various places where they would be apropos. > > Hm. You probably also noticed what the dog did in the night. Night-time, I mean. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 17 18:26:01 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:26:01 EST Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/2004 6:36:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry_friedman at yahoo.com writes: > > That, and various places in the Vladiad where a quarrel or arrow > > through someone's throat would simplify matters, and Paarfi's failure > > to mention them in various places where they would be apropos. Hm. You probably also noticed what the dog did in the night. > "Dragon" mentions a weapon called "spear-throwers" (iirc) which were not > widely used. One of his messmates had to tell Vlad what they were. > Perhaps the bow and arrow wasn't yet invented. As long as we're all guessing while AWB, I remember them as "javelin throwers" (I don't think that one's taken yet), and I was pretty sure they *were* bows. That's the bit in _Dragon_ that I was thinking of when I said Vlad wasn't familiar with bows and arrows. As I read it I was imagining the javelin throwers as cross ows.....I didn't look for the quote, but I think Vlad mentions somewhere that there were smaller ones...either that or I let my imagination run away w/ me again and I think that's what should've been there. I don't know.....sometimes I swear I'm blonde (which I really am and realized you guys can't see that so the joke isn't funny to you). -Crystal From dave at waveridersystems.com Wed Nov 17 18:48:31 2004 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:48:31 -0800 Subject: Bows and arrows References: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c4cd19$17b91ae0$c6f456d1@queeg.net> > > > "Dragon" mentions a weapon called "spear-throwers" (iirc) which were not > > widely used. One of his messmates had to tell Vlad what they were. > > Perhaps the bow and arrow wasn't yet invented. > > As long as we're all guessing while AWB, I remember them as "javelin > throwers" (I don't think that one's taken yet), and I was pretty > sure they *were* bows. That's the bit in _Dragon_ that I was thinking > of when I said Vlad wasn't familiar with bows and arrows. > I took them to be atlatls: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl From sethterashima at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 18:58:00 2004 From: sethterashima at gmail.com (Seth Terashima) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:58:00 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> References: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure the weapons in _Dragon_ were bows and arrows. However, iirc when Khaavren and co. trick their pursuers into believing they're being ambushed by an army, someone mentions a archers. Perhaps bows and arrows existed then, but were made largely obselete by sorcerory's increased power when the orb returned, and hence Vlad's apparent ignorance. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 17 19:48:01 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:48:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: References: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Seth Terashima wrote: > [...] iirc when Khaavren and co. trick their pursuers into believing > they're being ambushed by an army, someone mentions a archers. Yep - book search shows Garland and Seodra mentioning archers. [Conceivably a slip on Someone's part.] I'm 0-3 so far on this evolving thread - time to cut my losses. From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 18 04:49:36 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 05:49:36 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c4cd6d$0ffbdc30$667ba8c0@Dad133> I'm wondering if bows might be vulnerable to some types of sorcery. The weapon doing the damage must be touched or it can be dangerous to use. From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 07:05:00 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:05:00 -0500 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: <623DE464.2183807E.00184D6D@aol.com> I'm pretty sure the weapons in _Dragon_ were bows and arrows. However, iirc when Khaavren and co. trick their pursuers into believing they're being ambushed by an army, someone mentions a archers. Perhaps bows and arrows existed then, but were made largely obselete by sorcerory's increased power when the orb returned, and hence Vlad's apparent ignorance. Great point! -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 07:13:09 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:13:09 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <4B7FF77E.673D71C7.00184D6D@aol.com> Just out of curiosity.....what exactly is kethna? Is it an animal or what you call the meat from an animal? -Crystal From books at bofh.com Thu Nov 18 07:39:00 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:39:00 -0700 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <4B7FF77E.673D71C7.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <4B7FF77E.673D71C7.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041118153900.GA3505@bofh.com> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 10:13:09AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Just out of curiosity.....what exactly is kethna? Is it an animal or what you call the meat from an animal? What exactly it is isn't known, I don't think. We do know it fills the same culinary niche as a pig, as I recall. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 07:53:38 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:53:38 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows References: <000601c4cd6d$0ffbdc30$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 5:49 AM Subject: RE: Bows and arrows > I'm wondering if bows might be vulnerable to some types of sorcery. The > weapon doing the damage must be touched or it can be dangerous to use. > > > And hand thrown Javelins wouldn't be? (I just had a mental image of someone throwing an AMC across a field. . . ) No, I would account the neglect of archery to it's lack of importance to the characters and story. A bow is difficult to conceal, and despite what you have seen in the movies, not a one shot kill weapon, so it would be useless to Vlad. In the Paarfiad, none of the characters would deign to use a bow, where is the honour in fighting an enemy from a distance? Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 07:56:06 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:56:06 -0700 Subject: atlatls (was Bows and arrows) References: <19d.2bfebeb2.2ecd6239@aol.com> <001901c4cd19$17b91ae0$c6f456d1@queeg.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Godwin" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Bows and arrows > > > > > > "Dragon" mentions a weapon called "spear-throwers" (iirc) which were not > > > widely used. One of his messmates had to tell Vlad what they were. > > > Perhaps the bow and arrow wasn't yet invented. > > > > As long as we're all guessing while AWB, I remember them as "javelin > > throwers" (I don't think that one's taken yet), and I was pretty > > sure they *were* bows. That's the bit in _Dragon_ that I was thinking > > of when I said Vlad wasn't familiar with bows and arrows. > > > > I took them to be atlatls: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl > > > You can see these in use by Australian Aborigines in the Tom Selleck movie "Quigley Down Under", along with a very cool Sharps rifle. Jeff From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 08:14:20 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:14:20 EST Subject: kethna Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/2004 10:24:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: Just out of curiosity.....what exactly is kethna? Is it an animal or what you call the meat from an animal? -Crystal I was under the impression that Kethna refered to both the animal and it's meat. Just as we would use 'Chicken'. John D. Barbato, OD From J.Millen-99 at student.lboro.ac.uk Thu Nov 18 08:52:02 2004 From: J.Millen-99 at student.lboro.ac.uk (Jim Millen) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:52:02 -0000 Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c4cd8e$ee034ba0$6b01a8c0@jimsnotebook> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > A bow is difficult to > conceal, and despite what you have seen in the movies, not a > one shot kill weapon, so it would be useless to Vlad. I agree that bows are not easy to conceal, and certainly wouldn't suit Vlad's MO. But they certainly _can_ be one shot kill weapons, as the ghosts of Crecy and Agincourt could probably tell you. If you mean Robin Hood style arrow through the eyeball at 300 yards one shot kills, yes, that is unrealistic. Cheers, Jim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 15/11/2004 From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 08:58:59 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:58:59 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <179DC959.7A5E8E06.00184D6D@aol.com> What exactly it is isn't known, I don't think. We do know it fills the same culinary niche as a pig, as I recall. -Jot Sounds good to me! -Crystal From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 18 08:59:17 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:59:17 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: References: <000601c4cd6d$0ffbdc30$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:53:38 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: >> I'm wondering if bows might be vulnerable to some types of sorcery. >> The >> weapon doing the damage must be touched or it can be dangerous to use. >> >> >> > And hand thrown Javelins wouldn't be? (I just had a mental image of > someone > throwing an AMC across a field. . . ) No, I would account the neglect of > archery to it's lack of importance to the characters and story. A bow is > difficult to conceal, and despite what you have seen in the movies, not a > one shot kill weapon, so it would be useless to Vlad. In the Paarfiad, > none > of the characters would deign to use a bow, where is the honour in > fighting an enemy from a distance? We have seen real battles. Vlad has fought in a real war. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 08:58:19 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:58:19 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows References: <000301c4cd8e$ee034ba0$6b01a8c0@jimsnotebook> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Millen" To: "'Jeff G.'" ; Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: RE: Bows and arrows > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > > > A bow is difficult to > > conceal, and despite what you have seen in the movies, not a > > one shot kill weapon, so it would be useless to Vlad. > > I agree that bows are not easy to conceal, and certainly wouldn't suit > Vlad's MO. But they certainly _can_ be one shot kill weapons, as the > ghosts of Crecy and Agincourt could probably tell you. If you mean > Robin Hood style arrow through the eyeball at 300 yards one shot kills, > yes, that is unrealistic. > > Cheers, > > Jim > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 15/11/2004 > > > Maybe I should have said "instant" one shot kill. People shot with a bow and arrow have this distressing tendency to scream, yell, stumble about and generally make a nuisance of themselves before expiring. Messy. Even if shot through the throat, they can gargle loudly enough to get others attention. (This also applies to slitting throats as well, one of the reasons assassins go for the spinal cord.) From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 09:03:29 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:03:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: SpOiLeR WaRnInG Message-ID: <268B4CD4.19040B65.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Re: SpOiLeR WaRnInG Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:02:39 -0500 Size: 765 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041118/ed0aadc7/attachment.mht From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 09:08:03 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:08:03 -0500 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: <73529D29.20699D96.00184D6D@aol.com> "...where is the honour in fighting an enemy from a distance?" While this is a good piont, sometimes it is more fun to pick them off one by one, or if you don't want to risk feeling bad for killing someone's father (assuming you search the body and find pictures) and watching the look of horror on his face as you sword goes into his heart <>. -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 09:09:25 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:09:25 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <2743849E.03CB4867.00184D6D@aol.com> I like the chicken idea, but I think I like the pig better. -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 09:11:54 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:11:54 -0500 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: <07349357.01BE4FF5.00184D6D@aol.com> Robin Hood style arrow through the eyeball at 300 yards one shot kills, yes, that is unrealistic. If you are that good w/ an M-16 A2 riffle, it can be pretty fun. I am not that good however, but pretty darn close (or maybe a little less close than that). -Crystal From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 09:40:31 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:40:31 EST Subject: kethna Message-ID: <147.391cecbf.2ece388f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2004 12:22:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >I like the chicken idea, but I think I like the pig better. >-Crystal Chicken in parenthesis. the word.... not kethna is a type of fowl. john barbato od From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 09:43:03 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:43:03 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows References: <000601c4cd6d$0ffbdc30$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Bows and arrows > On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:53:38 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > >> I'm wondering if bows might be vulnerable to some types of sorcery. > >> The > >> weapon doing the damage must be touched or it can be dangerous to use. > >> > >> > >> > > And hand thrown Javelins wouldn't be? (I just had a mental image of > > someone > > throwing an AMC across a field. . . ) No, I would account the neglect of > > archery to it's lack of importance to the characters and story. A bow is > > difficult to conceal, and despite what you have seen in the movies, not a > > one shot kill weapon, so it would be useless to Vlad. In the Paarfiad, > > none > > of the characters would deign to use a bow, where is the honour in > > fighting an enemy from a distance? > > > We have seen real battles. Vlad has fought in a real war. > > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > But only one part of it. The use of archers is largely dependant on the style of the commander. With Sethra's preference for aggressive defense, archers would be valuable, but as support for the unit Vlad was in, not a part of it. If she had added additional support units, it would have attracted more attention to his unit, lessening the chance that he would penetrate the line of battle to engage his target. Sethra used his unit in a series of engagements designed to unobtrusively place Vlad nearby at the decisive point in the battle. As his unit was not a major threat, they did not face archers. It is probable that archers participated in the final engagement, but remembering the distaste that Vlad shows towards the slaughter, it is unlikely that he would care to recall a particular weapon or group of weapons. Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 09:50:54 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:50:54 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows References: <07349357.01BE4FF5.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 10:11 AM Subject: RE: Bows and arrows > Robin Hood style arrow through the eyeball at 300 yards one shot kills, > yes, that is unrealistic. > > > If you are that good w/ an M-16 A2 riffle, it can be pretty fun. I am not that good however, but pretty darn close (or maybe a little less close than that). > -Crystal > Heh. You are not likely to get a one shot kill with a M-16A2 or a M-4 at 300 yards with M855 ammo, unless you take the time for a head shot. That stuff is junk. 3 rnd burst, yeah, but not one shot, unless you are lucky. Jeff From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 18 09:52:32 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:52:32 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: References: <000301c4cd8e$ee034ba0$6b01a8c0@jimsnotebook> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:58:19 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > Maybe I should have said "instant" one shot kill. People shot with a bow > and > arrow have this distressing tendency to scream, yell, stumble about and > generally make a nuisance of themselves before expiring. Messy. Even if > shot > through the throat, they can gargle loudly enough to get others > attention. > (This also applies to slitting throats as well, one of the reasons > assassins go for the spinal cord.) In real life, assasins tend to not be too concerned about such matters. Do they go for spinal cords? Quiet killings tend to be with pillows or poison. Killings that require hurrying tend to be "injure him badly and get the hell away". Options change a bit if you want to make sure that the victim stays dead. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 09:57:42 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:57:42 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <02B1505D.1D362F83.00184D6D@aol.com> Chicken in parenthesis. the word.... not kethna is a type of fowl. john barbato od What are you talking about? () these are parenthisies. Did you mean quotes? You shoulod try making a little more sense. -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 10:00:59 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:00:59 -0500 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: <48D7F94D.042A30EA.00184D6D@aol.com> Heh. You are not likely to get a one shot kill with a M-16A2 or a M-4 at 300 yards with M855 ammo, unless you take the time for a head shot. That stuff is junk. 3 rnd burst, yeah, but not one shot, unless you are lucky. Yes, Dear, a head shot. Why take distance shots if that's not what you are going to use. But this is not the mailing list to use this type of disscussion (I know I started it, I appologize). -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 10:02:55 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:02:55 -0500 Subject: SpOiLeR WaRnInG Message-ID: <4A842DFF.61EC8CB4.00184D6D@aol.com> At 12:02 PM 11/18/2004 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >[a brief account in dialog form of how Godslayer might take souls, >considering that ] > >Evil grin. Actually, joyful evil grin and laughing out loud. > > >What do you mean by the "joyful, evil grin and laughing out loud."? As >someone has said before, a person might not have read as far as others >because they just picked up a book and decided they liked it. >-Crystal I mean "Cool!" Very good Issola dialog. Ok, that works! From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Nov 18 10:06:02 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: <623DE464.2183807E.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <623DE464.2183807E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: Someone noted: > Perhaps bows and arrows existed then, but were made largely obselete > by sorcerory's increased power when the orb returned, and hence Vlad's > apparent ignorance. Bear in mind that Vlad is likely to be conversant with Eastern weapons tech. And (one would think) weapons tech as recent as the Interregnum, esp. since he's ended up in a somewhat non-sorcerous niche. From gomi at pollywog.com Thu Nov 18 10:24:03 2004 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:24:03 -0800 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <02B1505D.1D362F83.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <02B1505D.1D362F83.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <419CE8C3.6000700@pollywog.com> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >Chicken in parenthesis. the word.... not kethna is a type of fowl. > > > >john barbato od > > >What are you talking about? () these are parenthisies. Did you mean quotes? You shoulod try making a little more sense. >-Crystal > > > > Was there a particular reason you were being a jerk here, or is this more of a freestyle bitchiness? pe From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 10:44:41 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:44:41 EST Subject: kethna Message-ID: <1f4.2820ee8.2ece4799@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2004 1:25:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, gomi at pollywog.com writes: >What are you talking about? () these are parenthisies. Did you mean quotes? You shoulod try making a little more sense. >-Crystal > > > > Was there a particular reason you were being a jerk here, or is this more of a freestyle bitchiness? pe easy guys. I screwed up. i've been dashing this stuff off between patients. yes mam, i meant quotes. i do believe that you are looking for a fight Ms. Medcat7, i won't oblige you. i was just trying to clear up what i believed to be a misunderstanding of my previous post. John D. Barbato, OD From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Nov 18 10:48:39 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:48:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <1f4.2820ee8.2ece4799@aol.com> References: <1f4.2820ee8.2ece4799@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2004 1:25:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, > gomi at pollywog.com writes: > >What are you talking about? () these are parenthisies. Did you mean quotes? > You shoulod try making a little more sense. > >-Crystal > > > > > > > > > Was there a particular reason you were being a jerk here, or is this > more of a freestyle bitchiness? > > pe > easy guys. I screwed up. i've been dashing this stuff off between patients. > yes mam, i meant quotes. i do believe that you are looking for a fight Ms. > Medcat7, i won't oblige you. i was just trying to clear up what i believed to be a > misunderstanding of my previous post. > > John D. Barbato, OD FWIW I read Crystal's message as self-mockery from someone who knows she's a bit fast-and-loose with comprehensibility - a smiley would have helped of course. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 18 11:00:32 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:00:32 -0700 Subject: Bows and arrows References: <000601c4cd6d$0ffbdc30$667ba8c0@Dad133> <6.1.2.0.2.20041118134835.02f494a0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter H. Granzeau" To: "Jeff G." Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Bows and arrows > At 10:43 11/18/2004 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > >But only one part of it. The use of archers is largely dependant on the > >style of the commander. With Sethra's preference for aggressive defense, > >archers would be valuable, but as support for the unit Vlad was in, not a > >part of it. If she had added additional support units, it would have > >attracted more attention to his unit, lessening the chance that he would > >penetrate the line of battle to engage his target. Sethra used his unit in a > >series of engagements designed to unobtrusively place Vlad nearby at the > >decisive point in the battle. As his unit was not a major threat, they did > >not face archers. It is probable that archers participated in the final > >engagement, but remembering the distaste that Vlad shows towards the > >slaughter, it is unlikely that he would care to recall a particular weapon > >or group of weapons. > > Archers don't do well as assault troops, I believe, and are much more > effective as a defense. > > > -- > Regards, Pete > pgranzeau at cox.net > > Exactly ;) Jeff From cparkes at actewagl.net.au Thu Nov 18 19:23:29 2004 From: cparkes at actewagl.net.au (Carl Parkes) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:23:29 +1100 Subject: re Bows and sorcery Message-ID: <003c01c4cde7$28c8e350$154693ca@CarlXP> may be the bow's string can be easily with sorcery In dragon the javlines wher lanched with "wommarra" not bows A wommarra works a an arm extention giving the javlin upto three times the velocity. ?? How does socery interact with physics. http://cparkes.actewagl.net.au/ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Nov 18 20:13:06 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:13:06 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1e4.2ea9aeaf.2ececcd2@aol.com> > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > "the pastries are venison [...]" > Philip Hart wrote: > This strikes me as an odd ingredient for a street vendor to have > easy access to, based on a vague feeling that historically kings > or nobility have enforced a monopoly on the hunting of deer. Howard Brazee wrote on Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:54:45 -0700 >Historically in England? >Historically, those in power do what they can to own all resources, >including game, land, and water. But there's nothing special about >venison, other than in small countries, game preserves are owned by the >crown. Dragaera seems to have plenty of land. Hi, It turns out that the Emperor had a game preserve. I did not remember that until I just reread it. The Imperial Preserve is probably part of the Lesser Sea now. The Emperor might have had a limited monopoly on hunting around Dragaera City only. "During this time, His Majesty might walk, or fence, or read, or even decide to cancel his afternoon appointments and go off to the Imperial Preserve to hunt the athyra, the wild boar, or other such game as might interest him." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Sixth, page 71 Great new tax on meats, new tax on wheat entering the city and an Imperial Preserve for the Emperor to go hunting in without paying any meat tax. Bye. Linda G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Nov 19 08:12:20 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:12:20 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <106C7238.36325BC2.00184D6D@aol.com> Was there a particular reason you were being a jerk here, or is this more of a freestyle bitchiness? pe Whaoh now....I didn't mean it like that...I just whated to know what the dael was! -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Nov 19 08:14:42 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:14:42 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <64205A73.3CD53EE1.00184D6D@aol.com> easy guys. I screwed up. i've been dashing this stuff off between patients. yes mam, i meant quotes. i do believe that you are looking for a fight Ms. Medcat7, i won't oblige you. i was just trying to clear up what i believed to be a misunderstanding of my previous post. John D. Barbato, OD I do this stuff between pts, too. I wasn't looking for a fight. I really wanted to know what was meant by that. I am sorry if I offened you! Please take my appology. -Crystal From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Nov 19 21:20:33 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:20:33 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <83.1b094d9e.2ed02e21@aol.com> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote on Wed, 17 Nov 2004 on the subject of Dragaeran deer hunting >I'm not sure we know enough. Doesn't the chreotha(?) use >a form of psionics to lure prey to their nets? I suspect >a similar method could be used to lure deer (darr?:) to >their end. Of course, envisioning a hunter walking into >Dragaera playing a pipe with a herd of deer following >sheep-like behind him doesn't quite lend itself to a sense >of decorum, but if it puts the venison on the table... >Just a thought. Hi, I do not remember any mention of chreotha using psionics. Anybody? Athyra use psionics to "find prey, and they frighten off predators". I was thinking a darr was a deer (darr a deer, augghhh!) ...darr-skin boots etc until I came across the text that says darr have two feet. The Phoenix Guards Chapter the Twenty-sixth page 317. Also, the first extract on food I came across involved "a dish involving darr meat ". So I thought venison was something besides darr meat. The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Fourth, page 42 I also wonder if we are are wrong to assume venison is deer meat. The Aol on-line dictionary says venison is "the edible flesh of a game animal and especially a deer" That could apply to almost every animal on Dragaera. Anybody remember deer showing up anywhere in the books? Another hunting method on Dragaera might be using a trained chreotha! "Enough, perhaps, to satisfy Your Majesty's curiosity, if, indeed, Your Majesty has any." "I assure you, Captain, I have some, and, moreover, it is now jumping around in its cage like one of Lord Weer's trained chreotha." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Sixth page 75 Of course, trained chreotha and the skill to train them may have been wiped out in Adron's Disaster. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Nov 20 10:37:58 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:37:58 EST Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: <1d9.3041fbb4.2ed0e906@aol.com> From: Dave Godwin wrote on Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:48:31 -0800 >I took them to be atlatls: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl Hi, I do not think we actually see any bows and arrows being *used* in the Phoenix Guards. Also specific question below for Carl and Jeff. >From the same website http://www.nps.gov/amis/eatlatl.htm Looks pretty much like the description in Dragon except where is the string and the green bendable wood. Dragon Chapter 15 paperback page 249 "Javelin shooters" Vlad thinking: "One of the javelins had fallen about two feet from my hand, and was sticking out of the ground, it was much smaller than the ones we were throwing, and had feathers near the back, and at the very end, the wood had a small notch." "Take a length of green, bendable wood", said Virt. "Put a string to it, and you can use it to shoot those things a long distance. Longer, even uphill, than we can throw our javelins downhill." Carl Parkes on Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:23:29 +1100 under Subject: re Bows and sorcery thinks they are wommarra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl mentions Australian woomera which it says is like the atlatl. Carl, spelling difference or something else? Jeff G. wrote on Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:56:06 -0700 under Subject: atlatls (was Bows and arrows) >You can see these in use by Australian Aborigines in the Tom Selleck >movie "Quigley Down Under", Jeff, could you tell in the movie if there was string involved? Booksearch only comes up with archery in The Phoenix Guards and the only reference to arrows in 500 Years After is talking about clothing. I bet a sorceror figured out between the two books how to wreck archery so much that no one will ever use anything with a arrow on Dragaera again. Or maybe even before The Phoenix Guards Book on G'aereth and Gyorg please! On archery in the The Phoenix Guards. There is an archery range but we do not see what is actually being practiced there. Maybe they are practicing how to use sorcery against arrows. One side shoots and the other side casts the anti-arrow spell. They pretend in Chapter 26 to have archers and maybe Garland did not know the anti-arrow spell. See Dragon Chapter 4 paperback page 4 and 5 on flashstones: "where some sorcerer found a means of making every one of the enemy's "flashstones" blow up in his hand--which added a whole new level of spell and counter-spell, and made the common foot soldier leery about having anything to do with sorcery." The spell used against arrows might not have been modified for darts because poison darts are not thought of as a battle weapon and who would know they were being used. If sorcery had made bows and arrows obsolete, that could have caused someone to invent something with string and green bendable wood that shoots javelins. The spell might might not have worked on a smaller javelin which was still much heavier than a arrow. The javelin would have looked just like the spear in http://www.nps.gov/amis/eatlatl.htm Or maybe the anti-arrow spell had not been modified yet to work on javelin shooters. Bye. Linda G. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 20 13:02:30 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:02:30 +0000 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info CC: cparkes at actewagl.net.au, Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Subject: Re: Bows and arrows Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:37:58 EST From: Dave Godwin wrote on Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:48:31 -0800 >I took them to be atlatls: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl Hi, I do not think we actually see any bows and arrows being *used* in the Phoenix Guards. Also specific question below for Carl and Jeff. >From the same website http://www.nps.gov/amis/eatlatl.htm Looks pretty much like the description in Dragon except where is the string and the green bendable wood. Dragon Chapter 15 paperback page 249 "Javelin shooters" Vlad thinking: "One of the javelins had fallen about two feet from my hand, and was sticking out of the ground, it was much smaller than the ones we were throwing, and had feathers near the back, and at the very end, the wood had a small notch." "Take a length of green, bendable wood", said Virt. "Put a string to it, and you can use it to shoot those things a long distance. Longer, even uphill, than we can throw our javelins downhill." Carl Parkes on Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:23:29 +1100 under Subject: re Bows and sorcery thinks they are wommarra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlatl mentions Australian woomera which it says is like the atlatl. Carl, spelling difference or something else? Jeff G. wrote on Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:56:06 -0700 under Subject: atlatls (was Bows and arrows) >You can see these in use by Australian Aborigines in the Tom Selleck >movie "Quigley Down Under", Jeff, could you tell in the movie if there was string involved? Bye. Linda G. Nope. Atlatls basically add power to the throw by increasing the leverage applied by the wrist on release. Jeff From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Nov 20 13:53:25 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:53:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041120215325.64187.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> --- Seth Terashima wrote: > I'm pretty sure the weapons in _Dragon_ were bows and arrows. However, > iirc when Khaavren and co. trick their pursuers into believing they're > being ambushed by an army, someone mentions a archers. Yes; the quote is something like "take a green stick and run a cord from one end to the other..." No mention of mechanism. A plain bow. - m by hand ===== -- Mark M. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Nov 20 19:39:59 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: SpOiLeR WaRnInG In-Reply-To: <5123FEA1.1AC1EDAE.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041121033959.77553.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > ...silently behind him and slid Godslayer between his ribs. > Godslayer: Pardon me, Master Soul, but I was wondering if you could accompany > me. > Victim: Who, in the name of Verra's extra knuckle are you?!?! > Godslayer: I apologize if I startled you, but I just happened into this body > you've got, and noticed you might be more comfortable elsewhere. > Victim: Umm...well, ok, you seem pleasant enough.>> I like that! mark by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Nov 20 19:54:35 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 19:54:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bows and arrows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041121035435.10484.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> --- Seth Terashima wrote: > I'm pretty sure the weapons in _Dragon_ were bows and arrows. However, > iirc when Khaavren and co. trick their pursuers into believing they're > being ambushed by an army, someone mentions a archers. > > Perhaps bows and arrows existed then, but were made largely obselete > by sorcerory's increased power when the orb returned, and hence Vlad's > apparent ignorance. We've had this discussion on the list before; it keeps coming up. I think Steve has said something about the Dragaerans' having developed their society in jungle, where the limited visibility makes bows impractical (but Amazonian Indians use them!). I don't think we've ever come to a satisfactory answer. -- mark by hand www.cracksandshards.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Nov 21 12:11:39 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:11:39 EST Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: Hi, Hmmm, maybe an anti-arrow spell had been modified to work on javelins and the "much smaller" javelins from "javelin shooters". Seems to me an arrow would be a twig when being compared to a javelin and not just "much smaller". More from Dragon chapter 15 page 249-250 paperback: This involves the "javelin shooters" "Drummer! Beat 'Kiss the Ground." ... "Virt, and everyone else, was busy lying on the ground." ... "a mass of javelins flew over our heads, save for a few that landed, point first, in the ground near us. Down the line someone began cursing, very creatively in a low, even, conversational tone of voice." ... "Crown walked in front of us, about ten feet down the hill, appearing utterly unconcerned by the javelins falling around him." Okay, he was a Dragon. But maybe Kiss the Ground is not just a message for everyone to get down. Maybe it is a message to everyone who knows the Kiss the Ground spell that makes falling objects hit the dirt instead of people. No one seems to have been hit. Dragon Chapter 14 pages 227-229 Vlad's unit is "attacking uphill" against javelins. ... The Captain says: "we will have additional support from the sorcerors corps, especially defensive. If we keep our lines dressed and strick quickly. I do not anticipate any difficulty." ... "they launched their javelins at us."..."single, vast sheet of metal" The first barrage, Vlad is distracted "from noticing what effect, if any, the javelins had had on our forces. Then they launched a second barrage, and this time I noticed: Virt stumbled and went down"...third barrage of javelins, which did some damage, to judge by the screams around me, and then a fourth, during which one went screaming past my ear and made Loiosh yelp phychically, and then we met the enemy." Okay, they were getting closer with each barrage, but maybe the sorcerors corps were getting more and more tired and the defensive spells weaker and weaker. Maybe a defensive spell that would have worked totally against arrows and the "much smaller javelins" would have had trouble with the heavier, full-size javelins. Note that in Chapter 10, page 157-158, Vlad's unit in Morrolan's army does not have shields. Fornia's army has shields. Okay, maybe it is because Vlad's unit was light infantry. Or maybe it is because Sethra likes to fight a defensive war and shields are not needed if you have a good sorcerors corps. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Nov 21 13:35:31 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:35:31 EST Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards Message-ID: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> Hi, The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Sixth, page 61 "She pretended that no one who was not an accomplished sorcerer could have a place in the Imperial Guard." "Well, and?" "I had the honor to inform her that the reign of the Athyra had ended fifteen days ago." The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Ninth, page 91 "Well, behind that courtyard is a practice range for archers, which I think will not be in use at that time. The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Eleventh, page 107-108 '"But rather than that," remarked Aerich, "we ought to discuss the aftermath of the little affair at the archery range."' 'As we pronounced the words, "archery range," the two Guardsmen with whom Tazendra was playing smiled, as in fact, did Tazendra. Pel and Khaavren, however, frowned, as they had sufficient perspicacity to catch something in Aerich's voice when he pronounced the word, "aftermath."' The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Twenty-sixth, page 324-325 Garland explaining how he was fooled to Seodra. "Well, first she cried to her lancers to be at the ready." "Lancers?" ... "She required her archers to remain in position." "Archers? Are you certain?" ... "Sorcerers?" ... "But you did not see the arrows, or the lancers or the cavalry?" Here is my guesswork:) If a witch can "make a leaf blow slightly askew of the wind just be willing it to", then what could an accomplished sorcerer do with a little help from the orb (even pre-Interregnum orb). The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 1, page 10 My guess is one of the useful tasks an accomplished sorcerer could do in the Imperial Guard was an anti-arrow spell. This anti-arrow spell was figured out in the last Athrya reign. The practice range still existed and may have been used to practice archery and the anti-arrow spell. The two Guardsmen and Tazendra were actually smiling at the words "archery range" (not just because they knew about the fight) because as sorcerers they know archery is now obsolete. Seodra, an Athrya, adds "Are you certain?" to the question about archers because she thinks why would anyone have archers anymore. We never actually see anyone using arrows in The Phoenix Guards. No more bows and arrows. No invention of crossbows. No invention of guns. Bye. Linda G. From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Sun Nov 21 14:11:29 2004 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:11:29 -0500 Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards In-Reply-To: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> References: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> Message-ID: <41A11291.6080700@cinci.rr.com> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >My guess is one of the useful tasks an accomplished sorcerer >could do in the Imperial Guard was an anti-arrow spell. This >anti-arrow spell was figured out in the last Athrya reign. > > Similarly, what I've been thinking as I've lurked about watching this thread, is that the ranged attack that archers provided could be just as easily provided by a sorcerer's corps. Not only that, but sorcerers could almost certainly deliver more devastating firepower than just a bunch of pointy sticks--I'm thinking here of say 100 sorcerers all casting something along the lines of the D&D fireball spell. Of course, this leads into the offensive/defensive sorcery arms race that's been discussed before... Latakia the Lemur From MedCat7 at aol.com Sun Nov 21 15:36:39 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:36:39 EST Subject: kethna: Apology Message-ID: <128.506068ae.2ed28087@aol.com> In a message dated 11/20/2004 12:08:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 writes: A few of us had a short discussion about this Thursday off-list. The general consensus was that you probably did not mean to offend anyone. I concured with the consensus. Apology absolutely accepted. Accept my own in return. I am aware that I screwed up. I sure wish I would read my own post before replying-it's not like it's in front of me or anything. Please keep in mind that there are many people on the mailing list and many points of view on the things you write. You will probably get to read some knock-down-drag-outs if you hang around long enough. Lord knows there have have been 'heated arguments' over little more than semantics. There are times when I feel like the list is like a bunch of sharks circling, waiting for the first scent of fresh blood. You'll see what I mean eventually. Anyway. Welcome to our little slice of heaven. And don't kill any patients because you were to busy posting to read their charts!!!!! (Not that I'm talking from experience....really....it's never happened.....uh...really....) John D. Barbato, OD Thanks guys. So you all live near each other or talk on the phone? That's cool. I don't mind being knocked down or draged out as you put it. It's not like I am going to let it ruin my day. When someone says something I don't understand I am not affraid to ask what they meant. And I do accept your appology eventhough you have nothing to appologize for. As for the patients; I work in orthopaedics for a new PA (fresh from school like me) so she doesn't get too many patients yet. And I kinda found my answer to the kethna question. I don't have the quote in front of me but I am sure you can all figure out where it's from: It in _Teckla_ when Vlad is speaking to Parish, or rather Parish is telling his story. He mentions having a kethna farm and that he has to feed them corn. So I think they are more on the poultry side. Thanks again for all of you understanding! -Crystal, MA P.S. What does the "OD" stand for? From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Sun Nov 21 15:55:14 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:55:14 -0500 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com [mailto:FRIEDA2133 at aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 3:12 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Bows and arrows > > Hi, > > Hmmm, maybe an anti-arrow spell had been modified to work > on javelins and the "much smaller" javelins from "javelin > shooters". Seems to me an arrow would be a twig when > being compared to a javelin and not just "much smaller". > It wouldn't take much to make arrows useless in battle. A brisk, and unexpected, wind would suffice, though that would probably not affect javelins as much, owing to weight and a lack of vanes. If they're strong enough though a sorcerer could probably knock around a flight of arrows enough that a good 80% of them won't have a chance in hell of hitting anything useful. That assumes your sorcerers aren't busy deflecting fireballs and whatnot. > Note that in Chapter 10, page 157-158, Vlad's unit in > Morrolan's army does not have shields. Fornia's army > has shields. > > Okay, maybe it is because Vlad's unit was light infantry. > Or maybe it is because Sethra likes to fight a defensive > war and shields are not needed if you have a good > sorcerors corps. >From _Dragon_ pg 158: [Vlad] "So, what do we have instead of shields?" [Virt] "We're light infantry. We have javelins and the capability to maneuver quickly." I suspect it's just Vlad's company that lacks shields. That is, assuming his is the only light infantry company, which may be a bit of a stretch. From cparkes at actewagl.net.au Sun Nov 21 19:17:32 2004 From: cparkes at actewagl.net.au (Carl Parkes) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:17:32 +1100 Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards References: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> <41A11291.6080700@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <002201c4d041$d39dc3c0$2b4593ca@CarlXP> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noah Stacy" To: Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards > FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> >>My guess is one of the useful tasks an accomplished sorcerer could do in >>the Imperial Guard was an anti-arrow spell. This anti-arrow spell was >>figured out in the last Athrya reign. > Similarly, what I've been thinking as I've lurked about watching this > thread, is that the ranged attack that archers provided could be just as > easily provided by a sorcerer's corps. Not only that, but sorcerers could > almost certainly deliver more devastating firepower than just a bunch of > pointy sticks--I'm thinking here of say 100 sorcerers all casting > something along the lines of the D&D fireball spell. Of course, this leads > into the offensive/defensive sorcery arms race that's been discussed > before... > > Latakia the Lemur Why not a spell to break the bow string under tension? or a spell againsed stored energy, a little chaos goes a long way. Carl http://cparkes.actewagl.net.au/ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Nov 21 19:58:10 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:58:10 EST Subject: kethna: Apology Message-ID: <1f5.2945744.2ed2bdd2@aol.com> In a message dated 11/20/2004 12:08:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, that may not have been emailed to dragaera at dragaera.info >There are times when I feel like the list is like a bunch of sharks >circling, waiting for the first scent of fresh blood. Hi, I think the spelling sharks must be busy elsewhere today because I pushed the send button just as I realized I did not spellcheck one of my postings today. So I spellchecked it afterward and I had several of them. In text I was quoting too....augggh!! I apologize. MedCat7.aol.com wrote on Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:36:39 EST >And I kinda found my answer to the kethna question. I don't have the >quote in front of me but I am sure you can all figure out where it's from: >It in _Teckla_ when Vlad is speaking to Parish, or rather Parish is telling >his story. He mentions having a kethna farm and that he has to feed them >corn. So I think they are more on the poultry side. I have tried dragaera search but have not been able to find the posting I am looking for. Does some sort of index routine have to be run? I think there was a posting where someone went looking for kethna meat at a Giant food store and could not find any. Someone asked if it was a kosher store. David or someone suggested pork would be the proper substitute and then did Steven Brust say point to the person who said pork was the proper substitute. Did I imagine that???? Was it a dream? Bye. Linda G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Nov 21 20:27:52 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:27:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards In-Reply-To: <002201c4d041$d39dc3c0$2b4593ca@CarlXP> References: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> <41A11291.6080700@cinci.rr.com> <002201c4d041$d39dc3c0$2b4593ca@CarlXP> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Carl Parkes wrote: > Why not a spell to break the bow string under tension? > or a spell againsed stored energy, a little chaos goes a long way. If one could do this much, one could just cast a general death spell, since to live we rely on stored energy, whatever that means. From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 03:44:14 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:44:14 EST Subject: kethna: Apology Message-ID: <19b.2c2b1866.2ed32b0e@aol.com> In a message dated 11/21/2004 11:09:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >David or someone suggested pork would be the proper >substitute and then did Steven Brust say point to the person who said >pork was the proper substitute. Did I imagine that???? Was it a dream? >Bye. >Linda G. I remember a previous thread that proposed pork also. John D. barbato OD From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 22 04:53:17 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 05:53:17 -0700 Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c4d092$3d572360$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Carl Parkes wrote: > >> Why not a spell to break the bow string under tension? >> or a spell againsed stored energy, a little chaos goes a long way. > > If one could do this much, one could just cast a general death spell, > since to live we rely on stored energy, whatever that means. In this case, that's not what it means. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 22 06:49:33 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:49:33 -0700 Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards References: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> <41A11291.6080700@cinci.rr.com> <002201c4d041$d39dc3c0$2b4593ca@CarlXP> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Parkes" To: Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 8:17 PM Subject: Re: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noah Stacy" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The > Phoenix Guards > > > > FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > >> > >>My guess is one of the useful tasks an accomplished sorcerer could do in > >>the Imperial Guard was an anti-arrow spell. This anti-arrow spell was > >>figured out in the last Athrya reign. > > Similarly, what I've been thinking as I've lurked about watching this > > thread, is that the ranged attack that archers provided could be just as > > easily provided by a sorcerer's corps. Not only that, but sorcerers could > > almost certainly deliver more devastating firepower than just a bunch of > > pointy sticks--I'm thinking here of say 100 sorcerers all casting > > something along the lines of the D&D fireball spell. Of course, this leads > > into the offensive/defensive sorcery arms race that's been discussed > > before... > > > > Latakia the Lemur > > > Why not a spell to break the bow string under tension? > or a spell againsed stored energy, a little chaos goes a long way. > > > Carl > http://cparkes.actewagl.net.au/ > > Visited Recluse lately? Remember, Sethra said (in Orca?) that the difficulty in a sorcerous spell lies in the complexity of the spell. I would imagine that casting a spell to effect every bowstring on an opposing forces archers, and only those strings, would be pretty complex. Of course, such a spell would be useful against incompetent guitar players as well. . . . On a related note, is there any evidence of any long distance spells being used? Almost every spell we have seen has been on objects within visual range, or using objects that have some form of psionic link (Adron's spell against the Orb, and the communication spell used by Garland in TPG). Sethra states that it is more difficult to teleport someone to you, and I believe that a psionic link is required here as well, whereas teleporting someone or thing away is almost effortless. Then again, maybe we are reading to much into this. Perhaps Steve just doesn't think archery is cool. So, next time I am in Vegas I will bring a bow with me, get him hooked an archery, and we will see Vlad running around with a bow, putting shafts into people from a distance. . . . . Or perhaps not. Jeff From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Mon Nov 22 07:15:28 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:15:28 -0500 Subject: Bows and arrows Message-ID: I used to be on the Marines I could definitely " hit" a person at 300 yards in the chest. You are correct though it is not a insta kill weapon. The 50 cal machine gun can be fired single shot is most definitely a one shot one kill weapon. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 12:51 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Bows and arrows ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 10:11 AM Subject: RE: Bows and arrows > Robin Hood style arrow through the eyeball at 300 yards one shot kills, > yes, that is unrealistic. > > > If you are that good w/ an M-16 A2 riffle, it can be pretty fun. I am not that good however, but pretty darn close (or maybe a little less close than that). > -Crystal > Heh. You are not likely to get a one shot kill with a M-16A2 or a M-4 at 300 yards with M855 ammo, unless you take the time for a head shot. That stuff is junk. 3 rnd burst, yeah, but not one shot, unless you are lucky. Jeff From casey at the-bat.net Mon Nov 22 07:37:09 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:37:09 -0500 Subject: kethna: Apology In-Reply-To: <1f5.2945744.2ed2bdd2@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c4d0a9$21676090$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Linda G. (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) writ: > ... I think there was a posting where > someone went looking for kethna meat at a Giant food store > and could not find any. Someone asked if it was a kosher > store. David or someone suggested pork would be the proper > substitute and then did Steven Brust say point to the person who said > pork was the proper substitute. Did I imagine that???? Was > it a dream? You did not dream it. 'Twas I that asked if it was a kosher establishment and to whom Steve graciously awarded a point. dd-b more directly indicated that pork was indeed the meat that was sought. Ken Koester was the seeker. The thread had the subject Updateed pronunciation guide, and the date was 30 Sept 2004. Casey, who rarely deletes email. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Nov 22 08:56:01 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <419CE8C3.6000700@pollywog.com> Message-ID: <20041122165601.72072.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> john barbato wrote: > >Chicken in parenthesis. the word.... not kethna is a type of fowl. > > > > > > > >john barbato od > > > > > >What are you talking about? In case anybody still cares, I think the point of this is that the _usage_ of "kethna" is like that of "chicken" (or "lamb"): it means both the animal and its meat. However, the _meaning_ of kethna is something very like a pig. Steve has responded approvingly to a joke about it not being kosher. (I'm still waiting for "kethna wings", though.) Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 22 09:13:26 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:13:26 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <20041122165601.72072.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041122165601.72072.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41A21E36.6050101@earthlink.net> Jerry Friedman wrote: >john barbato wrote: > > > >>>Chicken in parenthesis. the word.... not kethna is a type of fowl. >>> >>> >>> >>>john barbato od >>> >>> >>>What are you talking about? >>> >>> > >In case anybody still cares, I think the point of this is that >the _usage_ of "kethna" is like that of "chicken" (or "lamb"): >it means both the animal and its meat. However, the _meaning_ >of kethna is something very like a pig. Steve has responded >approvingly to a joke about it not being kosher. (I'm still >waiting for "kethna wings", though.) > > Wait, are you suggesting that kethna *can't* fly?! Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 09:30:36 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:30:36 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <2FEAEF34.03A7FB0E.00184D6D@aol.com> In case anybody still cares, I think the point of this is that >the _usage_ of "kethna" is like that of "chicken" (or "lamb"): >it means both the animal and its meat. However, the _meaning_ >of kethna is something very like a pig. Steve has responded >approvingly to a joke about it not being kosher. (I'm still >waiting for "kethna wings", though.) > So kethna is an animal with four legs and not a type of fowl (face twisted in confusion). -Crystal From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Nov 22 10:56:25 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:56:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <2FEAEF34.03A7FB0E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041122185625.78803.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > I wrote: > In case anybody still cares, I think the point of this is that > >the _usage_ of "kethna" is like that of "chicken" (or "lamb"): > >it means both the animal and its meat. However, the _meaning_ > >of kethna is something very like a pig. Steve has responded > >approvingly to a joke about it not being kosher. (I'm still > >waiting for "kethna wings", though.) > > > > So kethna is an animal with four legs and not a type of fowl (face > twisted in confusion). > -Crystal As far as anybody knows, a kethna is exactly like a pig. Maybe it is a pig. On the other hand, I don't think wings are ruled out. :-) Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 11:07:52 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:07:52 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <30356DA2.025EA3E4.00184D6D@aol.com> As far as anybody knows, a kethna is exactly like a pig. Maybe it is a pig. On the other hand, I don't think wings are ruled out. :-) Jerry Friedman Thank you. -C From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 12:02:07 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:02:07 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <6B485797.3AF0D26C.0015B39F@aol.com> Jhereg69 at earthlink wrote >Wait, are you suggesting a Kethna *can't* fly? I guess it depends on if you can catch it, pick it up and throw. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From casey at the-bat.net Mon Nov 22 12:44:09 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:44:09 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <6B485797.3AF0D26C.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: John D. Barbato, O.D. [Bato001 at aol.com] writes > Jhereg69 at earthlink wrote > >Wait, are you suggesting a Kethna *can't* fly? > > I guess it depends on if you can catch it, pick it up and throw. Or to put it more confusingly, kethna can fly, however whether or not a kethna can fly is an open question. Having met no Kethna to date, I won't speculate as to whether or not such a being might be able to fly. :) Casey From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Nov 22 12:54:50 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:54:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <200411222044.iAMKini3013146@nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> References: <200411222044.iAMKini3013146@nospam3.slac.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >From _Teckla_ via booksearch: "Kelly went back to staring at me through his little pig eyes [...]" http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/florafauna.html notes "pig" as well. Also, "bacon of kethna" is noted in _TPG_, so I'd guess that the specification implies both pigs and kethna are available for baconing. So I assume kethna are like big-eyed pigs. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Nov 22 14:10:18 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:10:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna Message-ID: <200411222210.iAMMAItN026379@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Casey wrote: > Or to put it more confusingly, kethna can fly, however whether or not a > kethna can fly is an open question. Having met no Kethna to date, I won't > speculate as to whether or not such a being might be able to fly. Ah. Kethna are like emus, then. They've got wings, but can't use them to get off the ground. No wonder they're so often used in meals. ;) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 22 16:15:12 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:15:12 -0000 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <6B485797.3AF0D26C.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041123001415.OGAM20377.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Jhereg69 at earthlink wrote >>Wait, are you suggesting a Kethna *can't* fly? >I guess it depends on if you can catch it, pick it up and throw. -- >John D. Barbato, O.D. Do I assume that Kethna - Tossing is an Teckla sport? :-) Mark P.S. Can anybody remember a reference to any sport?....aside from duelling. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Nov 22 16:17:40 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:17:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <20041123001415.OGAM20377.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> References: <20041123001415.OGAM20377.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Mark Tiller wrote: > P.S. Can anybody remember a reference to any sport?....aside from duelling. Archery? (Which is why I disagree with Linda's recent well-researched comments on the archery range - that is, I didn't find them conclusive.) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Nov 22 16:19:58 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:19:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna Message-ID: <200411230019.iAN0JwtN007082@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> "Mark Tiller" wrote: > P.S. Can anybody remember a reference to any sport?....aside from duelling. Yep. The ball game (anyone recall the exact name?) that the Teckla play alongside the Dragons, though rarely in the same game, and never on the same team. I'm thinking Tecklaball, but I think it's because I'm a sick, sick person.... ;) Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Nov 22 19:05:12 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:05:12 EST Subject: Dragaeran sports Message-ID: <1dc.30a8aa1d.2ed402e8@aol.com> Mark Tiller wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:15:12 -0000 > P.S. Can anybody remember a reference to any sport?....aside from > dueling. Hi, Is sports a part of culture? If not, it is a part of life as in Dragaeran life, culture, and art. I did not think there was enough sports to list, but heh, we got a couple going right here. Dueling, fencing, javelin-throwing, javelin shooter shooting(?), knife-throwing. In Response to Mark Tiller Philip Hart wrote on Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:17:40 -0800 (PST) >Archery? (Which is why I disagree with Linda's recent well-researched >comments on the archery range - that is, I didn't find them conclusive.) Thank you. Nothing conclusive until it is written in a book and maybe not even then. In Response to Mark Tiller Chris Olson - SunPS Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:19:58 -0800 (PST) >Yep. The ball game (anyone recall the exact name?) >that the Teckla play alongside the Dragons, though >rarely in the same game, and never on the same team. I cannot remember which book that is in, but I had come across this ball game in Dragon recently, paperback, Chapter 13, page 211 "The next day some of the company drew out a squareball field, wrapped a bunch of rope around a rock to use as the ball, and played a good rousing game while the rest of us stood around and yelled encouragement and obscenities. The injuries weren't nearly as bad as a full-scale battle would have been but were bad enough to get us yelled at by Crown and cursed by the company physicker." Same page "S'yang Stones" is mentioned. Is gambling a sport? Interesting Mark wrote on the 23rd and others responded on the 22nd. Dueling, fencing, javelin-throwing, javelin shooter shooting(?), knife-throwing, archery, squareball, S'yang Stones. Bye. Linda G. Hmmm, catching javelin with your teeth? Dragon, paperback, Chapter 14 page 228 Vlad says to Virt "Do they have javelins?" "Probably", she said. "Almost certainly." Then, "Do javelins worry you?" "Not at all," I said. "I'm looking forward to trying to catch one in my teeth." "That's what we need: fighting spirit." Vlad thinks "I assumed she was being ironic, but I couldn't tell for certain." See maybe she wasn't being ironic. Why in the world wouldn't javelins worry you? "A single, vast, sheet of metal" flying at you. Virt just assumes Vlad knows about the defensive spells. Of course, she is a Dragon and she gets to go to the Paths if killed. Unlike "Don't come back, Fenarian" Vlad. From cparkes at actewagl.net.au Mon Nov 22 20:11:40 2004 From: cparkes at actewagl.net.au (Carl Parkes) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:11:40 +1100 Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards References: <76.46af1d44.2ed26423@aol.com> <41A11291.6080700@cinci.rr.com> <002201c4d041$d39dc3c0$2b4593ca@CarlXP> Message-ID: <004101c4d112$894b5a90$584593ca@CarlXP> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards > > > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004, Carl Parkes wrote: > >> Why not a spell to break the bow string under tension? >> or a spell againsed stored energy, a little chaos goes a long way. > > If one could do this much, one could just cast a general death spell, > since to live we rely on stored energy, whatever that means. You can cast a general death spell only one bad side effect you end up dead Life would be naturally shielded for sorcery to exist. Define the tension in bow strings for a spell whould be less complex than the Teleport Blocking spell > From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 02:06:42 2004 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 02:06:42 -0800 Subject: What was Loraan trying? ( In Taltos) Spoiler for Issola-Ignorants Message-ID: Just in case- S P O I L E R S P A C E While trying to sleep, (with a recent re-reading of Issola in mind), the connection popped into my mind- When Vlad "remakes" Godslayer, he uses a dead but "preserved" soul, a Morganti weapon (That may or may not have been the "original sword/dagger"), and the chain Vlad named Spellbreaker. In Taltos, Vlad had encountered Loraan with a possibly dead, "preserved" soul (Aliera in staff mode), and the chain soon-to-be-named-Spellbreaker. Coincidence? Steve being evil? (*grin*) Plotting? I await your comments. (After all, this may have been perfectly obvious to you all out there and deemed not worthy of discussion.) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 23 03:48:29 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:48:29 -0000 Subject: Dragaeran sports In-Reply-To: <1dc.30a8aa1d.2ed402e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041123114730.PWXB1113.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> -----Original Message----- From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com [mailto:FRIEDA2133 at aol.com] Sent: 23 November 2004 03:05 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Dragaeran sports > Interesting Mark wrote on the 23rd and others responded on the 22nd. I'm in the UK and wrote just after midnight when it was still early evening in America. Cheers Mark From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 04:55:53 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:55:53 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran sports In-Reply-To: <1dc.30a8aa1d.2ed402e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <000201c4d15b$c4f53590$667ba8c0@Dad133> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Mark Tiller wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:15:12 -0000 > > "The next day some of the company drew out a squareball field, > wrapped a bunch of rope around a rock to use as the ball, and > played a good rousing game while the rest of us stood around > and yelled encouragement and obscenities. The injuries > weren't nearly as bad as a full-scale battle would have been > but were bad enough to get us yelled at by Crown and cursed > by the company physicker." That's a sport. > Same page "S'yang Stones" is mentioned. Is gambling a sport? No. > Dueling, fencing, javelin-throwing, javelin shooter shooting(?), > knife-throwing, archery, squareball, S'yang Stones. I've seen no evidence that they are considered sports there. Steve likes music, food, and gambling and has those in his books. Maybe he's not interested in sports. The example above appears designed to illustrate their warlike nature. I wonder how universal sport is. English law proscribed some sports that took time away from archery practice. (Where archery wasn't considered sport). I bet there's a book somewhere telling how primitive societies do sport, but I haven't come across it. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 04:57:46 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:57:46 -0700 Subject: Some guesswork on archery being obsolete by the time of The Phoenix Guards In-Reply-To: <004101c4d112$894b5a90$584593ca@CarlXP> Message-ID: <000301c4d15c$0942ddb0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Carl Parkes wrote: > Life would be naturally shielded for sorcery to exist. > > Define the tension in bow strings for a spell whould be less complex > than the Teleport Blocking spell Without understanding how the physics of sorcery works, we can only guess why some things are more difficult than others. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Nov 23 07:17:07 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:17:07 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:44:09 EST." <200411222044.iAMKigqa007400@pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu> Message-ID: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> I would consider it likely that kethna have 4 legs and 2 wings. A significant number of "native" animals in Dragaera seem to have a total of 6 limbs - the jhereg, the tiassa (which has wings), and the cat-centaurs. > John D. Barbato, O.D. [Bato001 at aol.com] writes > > Jhereg69 at earthlink wrote > > >Wait, are you suggesting a Kethna *can't* fly? > > > > I guess it depends on if you can catch it, pick it up and throw. > > Or to put it more confusingly, kethna can fly, however whether or not a > kethna can fly is an open question. Having met no Kethna to date, I won't > speculate as to whether or not such a being might be able to fly. > > :) > > Casey > From lqmiller at ev1.net Tue Nov 23 07:18:12 2004 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:18:12 -0600 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20041123091737.01e6fdc8@mail.ev1.net> At 03:44 PM 11/22/2004 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: >Or to put it more confusingly, kethna can fly, however whether or not a >kethna can fly is an open question. Having met no Kethna to date, I won't >speculate as to whether or not such a being might be able to fly. > >:) Okay, somebody's got to say it... "As Verra is my witness, I thought kethna could fly!!!" Louann, raised on sitcoms. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 07:19:43 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:19:43 +0100 Subject: kethna with wings In-Reply-To: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'm reminded of the saying "When pigs fly", it could be a very convoluted joke... _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Tue Nov 23 07:30:52 2004 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:30:52 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20041123091737.01e6fdc8@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <20041123103052335.00000002108@Z7581> Very very Nice!!!! -----Original Message----- From: Louann Miller [mailto:lqmiller at ev1.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:18 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: kethna At 03:44 PM 11/22/2004 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: >Or to put it more confusingly, kethna can fly, however whether or not a >kethna can fly is an open question. Having met no Kethna to date, I won't >speculate as to whether or not such a being might be able to fly. > >:) Okay, somebody's got to say it... "As Verra is my witness, I thought kethna could fly!!!" Louann, raised on sitcoms. The reason that many 'animals' on Dragaera have 6 limbs is because 6 is a magic number... or was that 17. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Nov 23 07:44:19 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 07:44:19 -0800 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20041123091737.01e6fdc8@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <2a1a01c4d173$4b777260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > Okay, somebody's got to say it... > > "As Verra is my witness, I thought kethna could fly!!!" > > Louann, raised on sitcoms. *heh* With Thanksgiving looming, I was certainly thinking it. ;-) From casey at the-bat.net Tue Nov 23 07:47:15 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:47:15 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> Message-ID: Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote in part: > A significant number of "native" animals in Dragaera seem > to have a total of 6 limbs - the jhereg, the tiassa ... While you are certainly correct with respect to the number of limbs of tiassa, etc., Steve has stated that notwithstanding the wonderful cover art by Mr. Hickman depicting a creature with four legs and two wings that would seem to be a jhereg, his own vision of the animal is one with only four limbs total, that is two legs and two wings. Casey From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 08:21:30 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:21:30 -0700 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20041123091737.01e6fdc8@mail.ev1.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20041123091737.01e6fdc8@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:18:12 -0600, Louann Miller wrote: > Okay, somebody's got to say it... > "As Verra is my witness, I thought kethna could fly!!!" > Louann, raised on sitcoms. I never saw that episode. When I was a child, I knew all of the TV shows. By the time WKRP in Cincinnati came around, I was down to a minority of TV shows. The last couple of decades, I have been a complete ignoramus as far as TV goes. I don't have enough time to do the stuff that I like. Heck, back when I was a teen, I read most SF books. Admittedly there were lots fewer then. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Nov 23 08:39:09 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:39:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: What was Loraan trying? ( In Taltos) Spoiler for Issola-Ignorants In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, James Griffin wrote: > > Just in case- > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > While trying to sleep, (with a recent re-reading of Issola in mind), the > connection popped into my mind- When Vlad "remakes" Godslayer, he uses a > dead but "preserved" soul, a Morganti weapon (That may or may not have been > the "original sword/dagger"), and the chain Vlad named Spellbreaker. In > Taltos, Vlad had encountered Loraan with a possibly dead, "preserved" soul > (Aliera in staff mode), and the chain soon-to-be-named-Spellbreaker. > Coincidence? Steve being evil? (*grin*) Plotting? Seems like a very sharp observation to me. L doesn't have a very powerful Morganti weapon lying around though - wouldn't V have noticed? And wouldn't L have used it during the battle if he could have? Well, maybe he was distracted - but I would suspect he'd have grabbed Spellbreaker if at all possible. Setting that aside, if I realized I had half a great weapon in my lab, I think I'd slap it around my wrist despite my plain sense of fashion. Also I think I'd put some wards around it so the cleaning staff didn't decide to snag it... From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 23 08:48:22 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:48:22 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> References: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> Message-ID: <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >I would consider it likely that kethna have 4 legs and 2 wings. A significant >number of "native" animals in Dragaera seem to have a total of 6 limbs - the jhereg, >the tiassa (which has wings), and the cat-centaurs. > Jhereg have a total of 4 limbs. The cover artists probably used a traditional fantasy dragon template, which is 6 limbs, but Steve has confirmed that Loiosh has two legs, two wings. Thus the confusion; if you believe the covers, Vlad actually doesn't have a mustache and has red hair. And every cover appeals to a broader fantasy base by having what seems to be a mini-dragon, but this doesn't match the description of jhereg in the books. (Loiosh would kill me if I had used the words "pet dragon" instead...) Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 23 08:50:59 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20041123165059.76649.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jose Marquez wrote: > Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > >I would consider it likely that kethna have 4 legs and 2 wings. A > significant > >number of "native" animals in Dragaera seem to have a total of 6 limbs > - the jhereg, > >the tiassa (which has wings), and the cat-centaurs. > > > Jhereg have a total of 4 limbs. The cover artists probably used a > traditional fantasy dragon template, which is 6 limbs, but Steve has > confirmed that Loiosh has two legs, two wings. Thus the confusion; if > you believe the covers, Vlad actually doesn't have a mustache and has > red hair. And every cover appeals to a broader fantasy base by having > what seems to be a mini-dragon, but this doesn't match the description > of jhereg in the books. (Loiosh would kill me if I had used the words > "pet dragon" instead...) AOL. And just in case anyone is confused, all the mentions of "kethna wings" in this thread have been jokes about "whether pigs have wings". We have no reason to think kethna have wings. Aside >from wishful thinking. Thanks to whoever it was--Philip Hart?--for reminding me of Kelly's "pig eyes". Jerry Friedman, who deletes e-mail immediately __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 23 08:57:48 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:57:48 -0500 Subject: What was Loraan trying? ( In Taltos) Spoiler for Issola-Ignorants In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A36C0C.4060905@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, James Griffin wrote: > > > >>Just in case- >> >>S >> >>P >> >>O >> >>I >> >>L >> >>E >> >>R >> >> >>S >> >>P >> >>A >> >>C >> >>E >> >>While trying to sleep, (with a recent re-reading of Issola in mind), the >>connection popped into my mind- When Vlad "remakes" Godslayer, he uses a >>dead but "preserved" soul, a Morganti weapon (That may or may not have been >>the "original sword/dagger"), and the chain Vlad named Spellbreaker. In >>Taltos, Vlad had encountered Loraan with a possibly dead, "preserved" soul >>(Aliera in staff mode), and the chain soon-to-be-named-Spellbreaker. >>Coincidence? Steve being evil? (*grin*) Plotting? >> >> > > >Seems like a very sharp observation to me. L doesn't have a very >powerful Morganti weapon lying around though - wouldn't V have noticed? >And wouldn't L have used it during the battle if he could have? >Well, maybe he was distracted - but I would suspect he'd have grabbed >Spellbreaker if at all possible. Setting that aside, if I realized I >had half a great weapon in my lab, I think I'd slap it around my wrist >despite my plain sense of fashion. Also I think I'd put some wards >around it so the cleaning staff didn't decide to snag it... > I agree; it is certainly makes sense in hindsight, with what we know you can do with a soul and a chain (presumably Loraan can obtain a Morganti weapon any time he wants, so maybe he even has one lying around elsewhere in the keep). However, Loraan is a wizard, and I have a feeling that even if he had the Morganti weapon in the same room as the soul and the chain, he would have preferred to fight with sorcery and let his goons do the physical fighting; also, with his being a wizard and all, slapping Spellbreaker on his wrist may actually deactivate various protections. Finally, with what we know of Loraan's character, he'd be as worried of the cleaning staff snagging the chain as he would be of the furniture in the room of doing the same. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 09:18:00 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:18:00 -0700 Subject: Heisenberg Principle in Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:39:09 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: > Seems like a very sharp observation to me. L doesn't have a very > powerful Morganti weapon lying around though - wouldn't V have noticed? > And wouldn't L have used it during the battle if he could have? > Well, maybe he was distracted - but I would suspect he'd have grabbed > Spellbreaker if at all possible. Setting that aside, if I realized I > had half a great weapon in my lab, I think I'd slap it around my wrist > despite my plain sense of fashion. Also I think I'd put some wards > around it so the cleaning staff didn't decide to snag it... Apparently this was a scientist who was experimenting and wanting to really understand how things work. One tool of scientific inquiry is isolation, so that outside influences don't mess up what you're studying. This particular object is harder to isolate than many, as it may form a symbiotic relationship with the experimenter. While the owner of this artifact liked power - he was more interested in knowledge (which can be considered an investment in getting more power later). Think of the risk/benefit in learning to understand how great weapons work - and possibly how to make them! Even how to make simple Morganti blades. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 09:22:04 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:22:04 -0700 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> References: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:48:22 -0500, Jose Marquez wrote: > Jhereg have a total of 4 limbs. The cover artists probably used a > traditional fantasy dragon template, > which is 6 limbs, but Steve has confirmed that Loiosh has two legs, two > wings. Thus the confusion; if > you believe the covers, Vlad actually doesn't have a mustache and has > red hair. And every cover appeals to a broader fantasy base by having > what seems to be a mini-dragon, but this doesn't match the description > of jhereg in the books. (Loiosh would kill me if I had used the words > "pet dragon" instead...) And the dragons (sic) on this replacement for Vlad on the covers of the books are way too big and heavy to be carried around by someone who needs the ability to move quickly. Adding a couple of legs, makes them awful awkward to carry as well. Heck, a parrot or Cockatoo can make you clumsy. Jheregs have to be smaller than illustrated. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 23 09:36:29 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:36:29 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: References: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41A3751D.3020607@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:48:22 -0500, Jose Marquez > wrote: > >> Jhereg have a total of 4 limbs. The cover artists probably used a >> traditional fantasy dragon template, >> which is 6 limbs, but Steve has confirmed that Loiosh has two legs, >> two wings. Thus the confusion; if >> you believe the covers, Vlad actually doesn't have a mustache and >> has red hair. And every cover appeals to a broader fantasy base by >> having what seems to be a mini-dragon, but this doesn't match the >> description of jhereg in the books. (Loiosh would kill me if I had >> used the words "pet dragon" instead...) > > > And the dragons (sic) on this replacement for Vlad on the covers of > the books are way too big and heavy to be carried around by someone > who needs the ability to move quickly. Adding a couple of legs, > makes them awful awkward to carry as well. > > Heck, a parrot or Cockatoo can make you clumsy. Jheregs have to be > smaller than illustrated. Agreed, although I approve of the marketing strategy. If a mustache and a missing set of legs on the "dragon" would appeal less to a potential reader, get rid of the mustache and add the legs. Sell the books! Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 09:42:01 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:42:01 -0700 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <41A3751D.3020607@earthlink.net> References: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> <41A3751D.3020607@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:36:29 -0500, Jose Marquez wrote: > Agreed, although I approve of the marketing strategy. If a mustache and > a missing set of legs on the > "dragon" would appeal less to a potential reader, get rid of the > mustache and add the legs. Sell the books! So who did the research that would indicate that a mustache or a too-large animal on his shoulder is less appealing? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Nov 23 09:57:23 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:57:23 -0800 Subject: Culture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2af601c4d185$e2628720$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I never saw that episode. When I was a child, I knew all of the TV > shows. By the time WKRP in Cincinnati came around, I was down to a > minority of TV shows. Yet, despite that, you knew what show was being referred to without having been told the title. Frightening, eh? I'm a bit surprised that so many people got the reference. I refrained from making one myself because I figured it was far enough in the distant past that no-one would get it. I wonder what that says about the average age of the list membership. *heh* Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 23 10:04:11 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:04:11 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: References: <200411231517.iANFH7ax023577@mint-square.mit.edu> <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> <41A3751D.3020607@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41A37B9B.7010907@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:36:29 -0500, Jose Marquez > wrote: > >> Agreed, although I approve of the marketing strategy. If a mustache >> and a missing set of legs on the >> "dragon" would appeal less to a potential reader, get rid of the >> mustache and add the legs. Sell the books! > > > So who did the research that would indicate that a mustache or a > too-large animal on his shoulder is less appealing? I was being facetious, but I suppose Tor or Ace would conduct such research... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Nov 23 10:01:15 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:01:15 -0500 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:48:22 EST." <41A369D6.7070705@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200411231801.iANI1Fg4008942@mint-square.mit.edu> While I appear to be wrong as far as jhereg, there do still remain a number of Dragaeran species with 6 limbs. A friend and I postulated that 6 limbed creatures were those that were native to Dragaera, while the 4 limbed ones were imports >from the "small invisible stars". However the example of the jhereg and the serioli seem to contradict this. Still, I think it would be interesting to compare leggedness among those creatures on which we can speculate. Different number of limbs lead to questions of relatedness and evolution. here's a short list of creatures in each group, off the top of my head and without having the time to dig through my books atm. Perhaps someone can add more to it? 6 legs: cat centaurs tiassa chreotha dragons 4 legs: easterners dragaerans serioli jhereg issola jenoine dzur might have vestigial wings, for all we know. the tiassa's wings are only mentioned once, in an easily-overlooked description of a statue in Taltos.l > Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > >I would consider it likely that kethna have 4 legs and 2 wings. A signific *ant > >number of "native" animals in Dragaera seem to have a total of 6 limbs - the * jhereg, > >the tiassa (which has wings), and the cat-centaurs. > > > Jhereg have a total of 4 limbs. The cover artists probably used a > traditional fantasy dragon template, which is 6 limbs, but Steve has > confirmed that Loiosh has two legs, two wings. Thus the confusion; if > you believe the covers, Vlad actually doesn't have a mustache and has > red hair. And every cover appeals to a broader fantasy base by having > what seems to be a mini-dragon, but this doesn't match the description > of jhereg in the books. (Loiosh would kill me if I had used the words > "pet dragon" instead...) > > Jose > > -- > Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in > jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand > http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > > From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 23 10:20:45 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:20:45 -0700 Subject: evoluton In-Reply-To: <200411231801.iANI1Fg4008942@mint-square.mit.edu> References: <200411231801.iANI1Fg4008942@mint-square.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:01:15 -0500, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > While I appear to be wrong as far as jhereg, there do still remain a > number of > Dragaeran species with 6 limbs. A friend and I postulated that 6 limbed > creatures > were those that were native to Dragaera, while the 4 limbed ones were > imports > from the "small invisible stars". However the example of the jhereg and > the > serioli seem to contradict this. > Still, I think it would be interesting to compare leggedness among those > creatures > on which we can speculate. Different number of limbs lead to questions > of relatedness and evolution. > here's a short list of creatures in each group, off the top of my head > and without > having the time to dig through my books atm. Perhaps someone can add > more to it? Interesting - we have species with different numbers of legs - but mammals, reptiles and birds don't vary much (snakes & seals even have the bone structure). We have to move further off the evolutionary scale to find crutacians and insects (not to mention fish). While 6 legged creatures wouldn't be related to Earth creatures, we do know that there has been some gene splicing (or something), between species - even between creatures from various planets. And jhereg is one of the species that has been modified. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Nov 23 12:05:59 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: What was Loraan trying? In-Reply-To: <41A36C0C.4060905@earthlink.net> References: <41A36C0C.4060905@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Jose Marquez wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, James Griffin wrote: > However, Loraan is a wizard, and I have a feeling that [...] he would > have preferred to fight with sorcery and let his goons do the physical > fighting If so, it's sort of surprising he doesn't leave dead bodies stacked in the corners to reanimate at need. > also, with his being a wizard and all, slapping Spellbreaker > on his wrist may actually deactivate various protections. Good point (suppressing quibbles). > Finally, with what we know of Loraan's character, he'd be as worried of > the cleaning staff snagging the chain as he would be of the furniture in > the room of doing the same. This is the Greeterbird Theory, which mislikes me more than a lot. L and the J are powerful, arrogant, and cold, but they're not stupid (are they?) Birds and furniture (outside of de Sade's chateau anyway) are predictable and limited in ways people aren't. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 23 12:19:10 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: What was Loraan trying? Message-ID: <200411232019.iANKJAtN012293@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > If so, it's sort of surprising he doesn't leave dead bodies stacked in the > corners to reanimate at need. Eww!! I suspect there are olfactory reasons why this would not be the case. And the cost and energy required to keep a bunch of corpses fresh and smelling of roses would, I believe, be prohibitive. Funny, though. "Where are your guards?" "Oh, they're in the freezer. Gimme a couple hours for them to thaw, and they'll be ready..." ;) Chris From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Tue Nov 23 12:24:20 2004 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:24:20 -0700 Subject: What was Loraan trying? Message-ID: Hehe, The gamer in me ponders a couple of ways about that - either stacking the bodies in a Elemental Plane of Ice or Cold or a chilly part of an alternate plane(t) and fetch via a gate... (assuming the inhabitants of said alternate planes don't eat the bodies...) Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:19 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info; philiph at slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: What was Loraan trying? Philip Hart wrote: > If so, it's sort of surprising he doesn't leave dead bodies stacked in > the corners to reanimate at need. Eww!! I suspect there are olfactory reasons why this would not be the case. And the cost and energy required to keep a bunch of corpses fresh and smelling of roses would, I believe, be prohibitive. Funny, though. "Where are your guards?" "Oh, they're in the freezer. Gimme a couple hours for them to thaw, and they'll be ready..." ;) Chris ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 23 16:15:23 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:15:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <200411231801.iANI1Fg4008942@mint-square.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20041124001523.82077.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > While I appear to be wrong as far as jhereg, there do still remain a > number of > Dragaeran species with 6 limbs. A friend and I postulated that 6 limbed > creatures > were those that were native to Dragaera, while the 4 limbed ones were > imports from the "small invisible stars". Sort of Tepperesque, eh? > However the example of the jhereg and the > serioli seem to contradict this. They could have evolved from six-limbed beings, for all we know. > Still, I think it would be interesting to compare leggedness among those > creatures > on which we can speculate. Different number of limbs lead to questions > of relatedness > and evolution. > > here's a short list of creatures in each group, off the top of my head > and without > having the time to dig through my books atm. Perhaps someone can add > more to it? > > 6 legs: > cat centaurs Cat-centaurs may be native to Dragaera, but I refuse to believe they evolved there. Or anywhere. They must be someone's genetic experiment. > tiassa > chreotha > dragons Do we know that dragons have four legs and two wings? I can't remember _Broke Down Palace_. > 4 legs: > easterners > dragaerans > serioli > jhereg > issola > jenoine I assume all the Earth creatures mentioned are pretty much like the ones we know and love. cat chicken cow dog donkey horse hawk pig wolf Also 0 legs: yendi, and one or two other kinds of snakes have been mentioned > dzur might have vestigial wings, for all we know. the tiassa's wings > are only mentioned once, in > an easily-overlooked description of a statue in Taltos.l And what about norska? Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From bryann at bryann.net Tue Nov 23 16:41:41 2004 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:41:41 -0600 Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <200411231801.iANI1Fg4008942@mint-square.mit.edu> Message-ID: > here's a short list of creatures in each group, off the top of my > head and without having the time to dig through my books atm. > Perhaps someone can add more to it? > > 6 legs: > chreotha I don't remember a reference to the # of limbs the chreotha has. > dragons This has been discussed before; I have found no references to Dragaeran dragons having wings. They appear to have four limbs, a tail, and a number of large appendages on their neck and three smaller ones on their chins that are described as being tentaclelike and possibly serve some psionic purpose. Bryan (who is way way behind on the next version of the map of Dragaera) ... Here's the references to dragons I've found so far (SPOILERS): Book of Taltos 100-101 - I saw a stylized dzur head ... a stylized chreotha, then later a hawk, then a dragon. 117 - a high stone arch with a massive dragon's head carved into it 126 - It is really hard to conceive of just how big a dragon is. I can tell you that it could eat me, perhaps without the need for a second bite. I can mention that it has tentaclelike things all around its head, each of which is longer than I am tall, and as big around as my thigh. I could let you know that, at the shoulders, it was around eighteen feet high and much, much longer than that ... one of its eyes was fixed on me, the other, I assume, on Morrolan ... it turned around (not a minor undertaking) and walked back out of sight. Issola (hardcover) 226-227 - there was even a dragon which, from across a long distance, seemed almost to catch my eye for an instant, as if it knew me. I stared back. Could it be that one from the Paths of the Dead? No, for some reason, it didn't seem like that dragon. Eventually it looked away, leaving me wondering. 230 - We all stopped and looked, and discovered that we were, in fact, not the only ones moving directly at the Jenoine: the dragon was, too. 234 - one of the Jenoine was down indeed, and wouldn't be getting up again, and there was no mystery about what had taken it out: the dragon was holding it down with two paws and tearing chunks out of the thing with its teeth, and scattering it in all directions, as if to tell us that good, old-fashioned gore did, indeed, belong in a battle of gods, demigods, and wizardry ... another continued to be dismembered and gutted by the dragon, who wanted to make a thorough job of it 235 - the dragon, which had finished its meal and was now trying to get at the Jenoine who was holding off the Lords of Judgement, turned toward us, then, its mouth open, showing teeth the size of Blackwand, and began to move in our direction ... the dragon, for no reason that I could see, stopped as if it had struck a wall, rolled over--something that big does a lot of rolling over when it rolls--and then came to its feet once more, and shook its head in a very human gesture. 236 - then aliera went flying backward, tumbling backward like a seed bag without the seed, landing next to the dragon. I thought she was dead, or at least injured, but she put her hand on the dragon's head, and, using it like a handhold, rose to her feet at once, shook her head in a gesture terribly reminiscent of the dragon's, then turned back toward the battle. It was terrifying to think that one of those things was entertaining the Demon Goddes, Sethra Lavode, teh Necromancer, a dragon, and Aliera e'Kieron. 237-238 - of all the sorceries and Great Weapons and gods and dragons and necromancies, it was that attack with that weapon that got through. 247 - they were gone, leaving only half the gods in the world, one very large dragon, and our little group standing on the spot of Adron's Disaster. 248 - the gods and even the dragon were gone as well. Brokedown Palace (paperback) 44 - [Miklos] looked over to where the movement had appeared and had a sudden, clear vision of a monstrous head--narrow, triangular, reptillian ... Three small tentacles, which Miklos knew to be sense organs, descended from its chin. There would be larger ones around its neck. 45 - Miklos ... watched the dragon, trying to guess its path. Even from this vantage, forty feet above the floor of the forest, he could only rarely glimpse the massive form of the beast, weaving in and out of trees that it doubtless found as strange as Miklos did. Odd how silently a dragon could move, even on unfamiliar terrain. The dragon was a mountain animal, he reflected ... The dragon stopped suddenly, and the Prince could see its neck tentacles becoming hard and rigid. 46 - He had never before been so close to a dragon. It is one thing to know that a dragon's head is taller than you are, another to see one close up. The dragon wasn't looking at him but at the dzur, and all of its tentacles were fully erect. 47 - [The River] was cool and pleasant to his legs. Lifting his head to look downstream through a tunnel of elms dotted with occasional willows, he was certain it was cool and pleasant to the dragon's feet as well. 49 - [Miklos] was fifty feet away when Vilmos leapt onto the dragon's back (I would have to quote almost the entire chapter to include every reference to the dragon in the above; I just included a few relevant passages -- it fought three "battles" in this chapter, one against an athrya settled with its mouth and possibly its psionic abilities, the 2nd against a dzur is not described, the 3rd is against an easterner, and it uses its mouth, claws, and tail -- it doesn't fly, doesn't breathe fire, doesn't use magic or even psionics). From rct9911 at comcast.net Tue Nov 23 17:57:01 2004 From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:57:01 -0600 Subject: kethna References: <20041124001523.82077.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c4d1c9$56cf14a0$6701a8c0@BOB> > > And what about norska? > > Jerry Friedman > > As far as I can remember from _Brokedown Palace_, norska are large, fanged rabbits. Like Bunnicula, or that rabbit from Monty Python. -Rebecca From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Nov 23 18:44:42 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:44:42 EST Subject: kethna Message-ID: <127.4ffcb964.2ed54f9a@aol.com> Rebecca wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:57:01 -0600 >As far as I can remember from _Brokedown Palace_, norska are large, fanged >rabbits. Like Bunnicula, or that rabbit from Monty Python. Hi, I have had two pet rabbits and whatever I read in Brokedown Palace made me decide norska were not rabbits. This was besides the fact that they liked dragon meat. I have to add this to my research list. Did anyone else get the impression that norska were not rabbits >from Brokedown Palace? Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Nov 23 19:25:11 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:25:11 EST Subject: Culture Message-ID: <19e.2bce9b33.2ed55917@aol.com> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:18:12 -0600, Louann Miller wrote: > Okay, somebody's got to say it... > "As Verra is my witness, I thought kethna could fly!!!" > Louann, raised on sitcoms. In response Howard Brazee wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:21:30 -0700 > I never saw that episode. When I was a child, I knew all of the TV > shows. By the time WKRP in Cincinnati came around, I was down to a > minority of TV shows. In response Scott Schultz wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:57:23 -0800 >Yet, despite that, you knew what show was being referred to without having >been told the title. Frightening, eh? >I'm a bit surprised that so many people got the reference. I refrained from >making one myself because I figured it was far enough in the distant past >that no-one would get it. >I wonder what that says about the average age of the list membership. *heh* Hi, You cannot tell age from who knows about old TV shows anymore. Old TV shows keep showing up on Cable channels like TV LAND and Nickelodeon. Lots of black and white stuff is coming out on DVD now. If somebody ribs you or someone else for being older and knowing some TV show, just ask them if they have ever seen TV LAND or Nickelodeon. It is fun! Hmmm, it might work for history too. Younger person says "Berlin wall? What's a Berlin wall? Never heard of it." You say "Don't you ever watch the History Channel?". Bye. Linda G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 06:29:13 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:29:13 -0700 Subject: kethna References: <127.4ffcb964.2ed54f9a@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 7:44 PM Subject: Re: kethna > Rebecca wrote on Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:57:01 -0600 > > >As far as I can remember from _Brokedown Palace_, norska are large, fanged > >rabbits. Like Bunnicula, or that rabbit from Monty Python. > > Hi, > > I have had two pet rabbits and whatever I read in Brokedown Palace made > me decide norska were not rabbits. This was besides the fact that > they liked dragon meat. I have to add this to my research list. > > Did anyone else get the impression that norska were not rabbits > from Brokedown Palace? > > Bye. > > Linda G. > I was thinking along the lines of a ferret type creature myself. Jeff From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 24 08:36:42 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:36:42 -0500 Subject: What was Loraan trying? ( In Taltos) =?ISO-8859-1?B?oFNwb2lsZXIgZm9yIElzc29sYS1JZ25vcmFudHM=?= Message-ID: <6B582C37.4EBFA755.00184D6D@aol.com> Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, James Griffin wrote: > > > >>Just in case- >> >>S >> >>P >> >>O >> >>I >> >>L >> >>E >> >>R >> >> >>S >> >>P >> >>A >> >>C >> >>E >> >>While trying to sleep, (with a recent re-reading of Issola in mind), the >>connection popped into my mind- When Vlad "remakes" Godslayer, he uses a >>dead but "preserved" soul, a Morganti weapon (That may or may not have been >>the "original sword/dagger"), and the chain Vlad named Spellbreaker. In >>Taltos, Vlad had encountered Loraan with a possibly dead, "preserved" soul >>(Aliera in staff mode), and the chain soon-to-be-named-Spellbreaker. >>Coincidence? Steve being evil? (*grin*) Plotting? >> >> > > >Seems like a very sharp observation to me. L doesn't have a very >powerful Morganti weapon lying around though - wouldn't V have noticed? >And wouldn't L have used it during the battle if he could have? >Well, maybe he was distracted - but I would suspect he'd have grabbed >Spellbreaker if at all possible. Setting that aside, if I realized I >had half a great weapon in my lab, I think I'd slap it around my wrist >despite my plain sense of fashion. Also I think I'd put some wards >around it so the cleaning staff didn't decide to snag it... > I agree; it is certainly makes sense in hindsight, with what we know you can do with a soul and a chain (presumably Loraan can obtain a Morganti weapon any time he wants, so maybe he even has one lying around elsewhere in the keep). However, Loraan is a wizard, and I have a feeling that even if he had the Morganti weapon in the same room as the soul and the chain, he would have preferred to fight with sorcery and let his goons do the physical fighting; also, with his being a wizard and all, slapping Spellbreaker on his wrist may actually deactivate various protections. Finally, with what we know of Loraan's character, he'd be as worried of the cleaning staff snagging the chain as he would be of the furniture in the room of doing the same. Jose Loraan might not have known how to creat "Godslayer" or if in fact he knew what that "gold chain" was really made of. Sethra did eventually figure out that it was gold pheonix stone. In _Dragon_ they didn't know why Barrit wanted a particular morganti sword in Morrolan's collection. When they found out, it took Blackwand to get it out (if my memory serves me right). I could be wrong about the whole thing. I am only rereading for the third time (I catch things better that way [and I am only in _Teckla_]and the books are just that damn good) -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 24 08:52:22 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:52:22 -0500 Subject: kethna Message-ID: <32473855.7712C41B.00184D6D@aol.com> As far as I can remember from _Brokedown Palace_, norska are large, fanged rabbits. Like Bunnicula, or that rabbit from Monty Python. -Rebecca Are they bunny like creatures? I pictured them more like a large guine pig, but then again I haven't had the pleasure of reading _Brokedown Palace_. -Crystal From tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 09:06:43 2004 From: tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com (Charlie Arnold) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:06:43 -0500 Subject: E-book format Message-ID: <001c01c4d247$fc731d10$7733a8c0@ansoft.com> Hi everyone. Just stumbled across the list yesterday and am excited at all the good threads. I look forward to jumping in once I've got some re-reading under my belt. Are the Vlad novels available anywhere in e-book format? I just got a fancy new pocketPC and it'd be fun to have them loaded up. I've searched my usual point of sale (fictionwise.com) for them to no avail. Charlie From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 10:30:34 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:30:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jokes and Allusions - Correction? In-Reply-To: <41A3199F.9030808@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20041124183034.40833.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Levine wrote to me about an entry on the Jokes & Allusions page of Cracks and Shards: > > "Patience my ass; I'm going to go out and kill something." > > > > I think this is Kliban; maybe it's The Far Side. Said by one > >predator to another. Here it's Vlad to Teldra; he calls it an old > >Jhereg joke. [Iss131-3] > > As I remember it, It was one scavenger / carrion eater to another > (vultures - I think). Therein lies the joke - both the original and the > Jhereg version. good point. if anyone can find the actual source i'd rather use that. -- Mark A. Mandel http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kublakhan73 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 10:33:30 2004 From: kublakhan73 at hotmail.com (Jeremy Tassoff) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:33:30 -0500 Subject: E-book format In-Reply-To: <001c01c4d247$fc731d10$7733a8c0@ansoft.com> Message-ID: I found Jhereg, Yendi and Teckla on Kazaa; I haven't been able to find the e-books at any of the commercial sites. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi everyone. Just stumbled across the list yesterday and am excited at all the good threads. I look forward to jumping in once I've got some re-reading under my belt. Are the Vlad novels available anywhere in e-book format? I just got a fancy new pocketPC and it'd be fun to have them loaded up. I've searched my usual point of sale (fictionwise.com) for them to no avail. Charlie One who indulges in gluttony is a glutton. A person who commits a felony is a felon...God is an iron. - Spider Robinson From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 11:46:21 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:46:21 -0700 Subject: Jokes and Allusions - Correction? References: <20041124183034.40833.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" To: "David Levine" Cc: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Jokes and Allusions - Correction? > > --- David Levine wrote to me about an entry on the > Jokes & Allusions page of Cracks and Shards: > > > > "Patience my ass; I'm going to go out and kill something." > > > > > > I think this is Kliban; maybe it's The Far Side. Said by one > > >predator to another. Here it's Vlad to Teldra; he calls it an old > > >Jhereg joke. [Iss131-3] > > > > As I remember it, It was one scavenger / carrion eater to another > > (vultures - I think). Therein lies the joke - both the original and the > > Jhereg version. > > good point. if anyone can find the actual source i'd rather use that. > > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://www.cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust fan website > > > > I am almost positive that it is an old Far Side cartoon, two vultures on a tree, looking at some antelope. I googled the net, and that is what that quote most often led me to. Jeff From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 24 11:59:38 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna In-Reply-To: <32473855.7712C41B.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041124195938.69714.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > As far as I can remember from _Brokedown Palace_, norska are large, > fanged > rabbits. Like Bunnicula, or that rabbit from Monty Python. > > -Rebecca > > Are they bunny like creatures? I pictured them more like a large guine > pig, but then again I haven't had the pleasure of reading _Brokedown > Palace_. > -Crystal I got the distinct impression in _Brokedown Palace_ that Steve was alluding to Monty Python's killer rabbit. I don't think we have any details, though. We know that a norska skin is big enough for Aibynn to wear as a cap, which may bring raccoons to mind. Jerry Friedman hopes he is not the only person to get Stuck Tune Syndrome whenever _Brokedown Palace_ is mentioned. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 24 13:31:56 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:31:56 -0500 Subject: Turkey Day Message-ID: <1D885D5C.5D87D216.00184D6D@aol.com> I know this has nothing to do w/ Dragaera, but.......... HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone! -Crystal From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 24 14:01:17 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:01:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Turkey Day Message-ID: <200411242201.iAOM1HtN003982@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Crystal wrote: > I know this has nothing to do w/ Dragaera, but.......... > HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone! You kidding? I give thanks every day that Brust is well and writing. I'm also rather thankful that this list is around and still keeping me amused after four years (I'm only on one other--damn I'm picky). Aw, shucks. Happy T-Day everyone! :) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Nov 24 14:25:42 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:25:42 -0500 Subject: Turkey Day In-Reply-To: <200411242201.iAOM1HtN003982@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200411242201.iAOM1HtN003982@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2004, at 5:01 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Crystal wrote: >> I know this has nothing to do w/ Dragaera, but.......... >> HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone! > > You kidding? I give thanks every day that Brust > is well and writing. I'm also rather thankful > that this list is around and still keeping me amused > after four years (I'm only on one other--damn I'm > picky). > > Aw, shucks. Happy T-Day everyone! > > :) > Chris Four years? is that how long its been? This is the only non tech list on I'm on. I'm also on one dedicated to Solaris on Intel users. hey Chris--can you get me a deal on a Sun system? :) From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 14:50:48 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:50:48 -0700 Subject: Turkey Day References: <200411242201.iAOM1HtN003982@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: "dragaera list" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Turkey Day > > On Nov 24, 2004, at 5:01 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > Crystal wrote: > >> I know this has nothing to do w/ Dragaera, but.......... > >> HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone! > > > > You kidding? I give thanks every day that Brust > > is well and writing. I'm also rather thankful > > that this list is around and still keeping me amused > > after four years (I'm only on one other--damn I'm > > picky). > > > > Aw, shucks. Happy T-Day everyone! > > > > :) > > Chris > > Four years? is that how long its been? This is the only non tech list > on I'm on. I'm also on one dedicated to Solaris on Intel users. hey > Chris--can you get me a deal on a Sun system? > > :) > > Mmmm, turkey. Best wishes to you and yours on this Thanksgiving. Jeff From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Nov 24 18:49:27 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:49:27 EST Subject: what would you be? Message-ID: I often wondered (I know this is going to sound dorky) what it would be like if someone where to hold a kind of Brust fan convetion (like a Starwars or anime convention) where everyone dressed up like a particular house. The people holding it could (definatly with the help of Steven Brust) decorate the place to look like Castle Black. To help me entertain this thought a little more, which house would you concider yourself or would like to be in and why? Or if you can't chose (or would rather be an Easterner or something else) what house you really don't like. I would be in the House Tiassa. I love the animal, the colors arn't bad, and my looks and personality would fit (I can't rememer where I found the discription of the personalities and typical appearance of each house). Thank you for you input. I just think it would be fun. And, Mr. Brust, which house is your favorite? -Crystal From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Nov 24 19:30:42 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:30:42 -0500 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62BFDFE8-3E92-11D9-9C0B-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Nov 24, 2004, at 9:49 PM, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > I often wondered (I know this is going to sound dorky) what it would > be like > if someone where to hold a kind of Brust fan convetion (like a > Starwars or > anime convention) where everyone dressed up like a particular house. > The > people holding it could (definatly with the help of Steven Brust) > decorate the > place to look like Castle Black. To help me entertain this thought a > little > more, which house would you concider yourself or would like to be in > and why? Or > if you can't chose (or would rather be an Easterner or something > else) what > house you really don't like. I'd be Steve. I'd wear a huge hat, carry a mandolin around and speak vaguely hungarian things :) From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 21:28:35 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 05:28:35 +0000 Subject: what would you be? Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Chris Turkel To: dragaera list Subject: Re: what would you be? Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:30:42 -0500 On Nov 24, 2004, at 9:49 PM, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >I often wondered (I know this is going to sound dorky) what it would be >like >if someone where to hold a kind of Brust fan convetion (like a Starwars or >anime convention) where everyone dressed up like a particular house. The >people holding it could (definatly with the help of Steven Brust) decorate >the >place to look like Castle Black. To help me entertain this thought a >little >more, which house would you concider yourself or would like to be in and >why? Or >if you can't chose (or would rather be an Easterner or something else) >what >house you really don't like. I'd be Steve. I'd wear a huge hat, carry a mandolin around and speak vaguely hungarian things :) ************************* Heh. Probably a Dragon. I am arrogant, would like to be professionally decadent, have served in the military, and enjoy a good fight. Although I am not sure that I would rather have a duel than a fine meal. And I already have a sword. . . . . Jeff From anchouss at mail.ru Thu Nov 25 00:56:39 2004 From: anchouss at mail.ru (=?ISO-8859-1?B?wO3t4CDf7eru4vHq4P8=?=) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:56:39 +0300 Subject: Titles In-Reply-To: References: <1098792811.2361.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <731511636.20041125115639@mail.ru> Hey all, I was trying to understand the principle of giving titles and became confused. As it was said in tPG Jenicor e'Terics is marchioness of Sharp-Bend Cave and future Duchess of Highland Reef. What marchioness stands for? Does it mean that she is the eldest daughter of Count Sharp-Bend Cave? And what about "future Duchess"? Can she be the heir of Sharp-Bend Cave County and the heir of Highland Reef Duchy at the same time? Thanks, Gella. From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 25 07:51:19 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:51:19 -0700 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c4d306$9b7b4c70$667ba8c0@Dad133> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > I often wondered (I know this is going to sound dorky) what it would > be like > if someone where to hold a kind of Brust fan convetion (like a > Starwars or anime convention) where everyone dressed up like a > particular house. The > people holding it could (definatly with the help of Steven Brust) > decorate the place to look like Castle Black. To help me entertain > this thought a little more, which house would you concider yourself > or would like to be in and why? Or if you can't chose (or would > rather be an Easterner or something else) what house you really > don't like. I'm not cutting my beard, so I can't be a Dragaeran. Which species have beards? > I would be in the House Tiassa. I love the animal, the colors > arn't > bad, and my looks and personality would fit (I can't rememer where I > found the discription of the personalities and typical appearance of > each house). > > Thank you for you input. I just think it would be fun. And, Mr. > Brust, which house is your favorite? > -Crystal From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Nov 25 07:53:07 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:53:07 +0100 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <000201c4d306$9b7b4c70$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: >From: "Howard Brazee" >To: >Subject: RE: what would you be? >Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:51:19 -0700 > > >I'm not cutting my beard, so I can't be a Dragaeran. > Neither would I. >Which species have beards? Humans. ;) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From carpovita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 25 22:52:09 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:52:09 -0700 Subject: If I built it, would you come? (was: what would you be?) References: <62BFDFE8-3E92-11D9-9C0B-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <001401c4d384$7402c960$0400a8c0@attbi.com> hmmm... Is there interest in such things? I have been involved with a convention here in Denver that ran a weekend long Live action game that is all Dragaera all the time. It was a lot of fun. I played Jhereg, was in fact cast as Demon, and have been told by Steve that that was an appropriate casting... If folks would REALLY like to have a weekend in Dragaera I think I could set it up at Opus, the convention I currently run (www.opusfest.com). Steve tells me he likes the show, he's been out in 03 and 04, last year we even held a Hungarian feast in his honor. I also know that we are equipped to run such a summit, in 2005 we will be hosting a Harry Potter weekend (full immersion, sorting, feast, points, the whole deal), A starfleet regional gather, and the international gathering of the Faith and the Muse fan club. I have some great spaces, a great staff, and since the convention that hosted the Dragaera game was almost 5 years ago now, I think I could get the folks who ran the game to do it again... And I have not as of yet chosen a 2006 Guest of honor for lit... So you folks tell me.... as it is in the end all about the Benjamin's. If enough of you would be willing to make the pilgrimage out to Denver in May of 2006, I would be willing (and financially able) to see about putting together a Brust lovers overload weekend. Just picture it... Hungarian feasting, music circles, Q&A panels about list topics, political discussions in the bar, oversized hats, Dragaera costuming awards, a Dragon and Dzur dueling pit, parrots, a weekend long Dragaera game with a Brust plot for you all to solve (or co-conspire in)... and whatever else we could collectively come up with between now and then. I would need a reasonable level of commitment from those interested to justify space needed and time required to plan it, say at least 30-40 confirmed out of towners. (And of course Steve ) The game itself required 90 players last time, and I would think that if a new version was written utilizing local talent and whatever help Steve would provide would need at least that many players. Thoughts folks? Rion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: "dragaera list" Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:30 PM Subject: Re: what would you be? > > On Nov 24, 2004, at 9:49 PM, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > I often wondered (I know this is going to sound dorky) what it would > > be like > > if someone where to hold a kind of Brust fan convetion (like a > > Starwars or > > anime convention) where everyone dressed up like a particular house. > > The > > people holding it could (definatly with the help of Steven Brust) > > decorate the > > place to look like Castle Black. To help me entertain this thought a > > little > > more, which house would you concider yourself or would like to be in > > and why? Or > > if you can't chose (or would rather be an Easterner or something > > else) what > > house you really don't like. > > I'd be Steve. I'd wear a huge hat, carry a mandolin around and speak > vaguely hungarian things :) > From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Nov 25 18:32:14 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:32:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <000201c4d306$9b7b4c70$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20041126023214.20362.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> [MedCat7 at aol.com:] > > if someone where to hold a kind of Brust fan convetion > > where everyone dressed up like a particular house [...] > > which house would you concider yourself > > or would like to be in and why? [Howard Brazee:] > I'm not cutting my beard, so I can't be a Dragaeran. > Which species have beards? AFAWK, only Easterners: Earth-normal humans. That's too confining. I wouldn't shave off my mustache, but I wouldn't let that stop me. Maybe Lyorn. Not as a warrior... well, why not, in costume? I've never worn a skirt or dress, and I hear that they give freedom of movement. But I was thinking of how particular I am about grammar and language, and how the Lyorn concern themselves with the preservation of knowledge and tradition. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Nov 25 18:51:22 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:51:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: kethna: Apology In-Reply-To: <128.506068ae.2ed28087@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041126025122.22688.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> [John D. Barbato, OD, aka Bato001:] > A few of us had a short discussion about this Thursday off-list. [...] > Anyway. Welcome to our little slice of heaven. And don't kill any patients > because you were to busy posting to read their charts!!!!! (Not that > I'm talking from experience.... really.... it's never happened..... uh... > really....) [Crystal, MA, aka MedCat7 at aol.com:] > Thanks guys. So you all live near each other or talk on the phone? No.... well, I know *I* don't. (Everyone generalizes from a sample of one. At least, I know I do. [thanks for that great line, Steve!]) Anyway... Since our email addresses appear on our posts, an offlist discussion can just be writing to a few other listies, who "reply to all" so that everyone who was addressed in the first mail gets the replies. Like, if I wrote email to you, John, Howard, and Alexx about something on the list. I've done that on other lists I'm on. "Say, guys, what's So-and-so talking about? Am I the only one who thinks he's wacko?" -- See, that would be very rude to say on-list, "in public" as it were, and Aerich would never countenance it. But I can privately ask one or two list-comrades I've known for a while. And I think that's the sort of thing John is talking about here. > It in > _Teckla_ when Vlad is speaking to Parish, or rather Parish is telling his (That's Parsh, with an "e".) > story. He mentions having a kethna farm and that he has to feed them corn. > So I think they are more on the poultry side. Pigs are also fed corn. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Nov 25 21:49:20 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:49:20 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: Today's cooking extract is from Emperor Tortaalik I in Dragaera City. Emperor?s wake-up call: 7:00 Each morning, he was awakened by the Orb at the seventh hour after midnight. At 7:02 a servant entered, bringing him, in a silver cup decorated with emeralds, klava with six drops of honey and a dash of cinnamon. Emperor?s breakfast: 8:50 "he broke his fast with klava, this time served in a silver cup decorated with rubies, and without the cinnamon; usually a smoked fish served at room temperature; dark or sour bread which had been toasted over a redwood fire and might have butter or goat?s cheese on it; and some form of noodle covered with either goat?s cheese or butter--the counterpoint, be is understood, to the bread." Emperor?s lunch: 14:15 lasts "a mere forty-five minutes" "lunch would usually consist of assorted fruits (fresh in the summer and fall, dried in the winter and early spring) and possibly an omelet or some other dish made with hen?s eggs, because His Majesty pretended that eating eggs every day was vital to maintaining his health and virility." Emperor?s dinner: 3:30 lasts "two and a half hours" "Dinner was the largest and most varied of the meals, and was often attended by guests of state. It was frequently lavish, always well prepared, measured at least six courses, and consumed two and a half hours. Lately, his Majesty had developed the affectation of wanting meals from every area of his realm. On one day the dinner might feature a kethna, roasted in the spicy style of the Eastern Mountains. On another, perhaps there would be anise-jelled winneasaurus steak >from the North. On yet another day, perhaps a fish stew from the South". Emperor?s supper: 9:15 "Supper was the lightest meal of the day, and would often consist only of delicacies, perhaps preceded by a broth." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Sixth page 71 and 72 I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving and has a great weekend. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Nov 26 09:44:01 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:44:01 EST Subject: Spare me Message-ID: Hi, Sometimes when I have just a few minutes to read something, I pick up Dragon and randomly read. I had a thought on this passage: end of Chapter 6, Paperback page 104. Vlad speaking to Sethra the Younger: 'What I said was, "What would you do with Kieron's greatsword?" I could see her trying to decide if I deserved an answer. At last she said, "Conquer the East. It would be a tremendous symbol for the leader of--" "Spare me," I said. She cleared her throat. "Yes, certainly. But you must see, you are the perfect choice."' . . . Vlad says "Spare me" to tell her that he did not want to hear about it. Sethra the Younger understands, clears her throat and stops talking about the subject. My thought is that she might have taken Vlad literally. Vlad says "Spare me" and Sethra the Younger misunderstands, clears her throat and says "Yes, certainly" meaning Yes, certainly I will not kill you when I kill all the other Easterners. I think she had the same problem Morrolan and Sethra had in Taltos. She came to see Vlad thinking of him as a Jhereg and not as an Easterner. Page 103 Vlad speaking: '"What makes you think I have any interest in doing you a service?" She looked startled. "Oh, I'm not asking you for a service." "You're not?" "No, no. I intend to pay you." I carefully controlled my reaction. "I see. Well, what is this negotiation about?" "The sword, of course."' So, I think Sethra the Younger just agreed to not cut Vlad in half with Kieron's greatsword. She may even consider that agreement to be the payment for Vlad setting up the negotiation. I cannot find direct text evidence of a payment being made by Sethra the Younger. Bye. Linda G. From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Nov 26 10:06:38 2004 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:06:38 -0600 Subject: Spare me References: Message-ID: <000501c4d3e2$ae37d220$44600d44@user79dn2jmjai> was also thinking about that 'but you must see, you are the perfect choice'.. she have in him mind as a military overlord/placed king of the easterners? why praytell would he be the perfect choice? what else don't we know about friend vlad.. andy > Hi, > > Sometimes when I have just a few minutes to read something, I pick up > Dragon and randomly read. I had a thought on this passage: end of > Chapter 6, Paperback page 104. > > Vlad speaking to Sethra the Younger: > > 'What I said was, "What would you do with Kieron's greatsword?" > > I could see her trying to decide if I deserved an answer. At last > she said, "Conquer the East. It would be a tremendous symbol for > the leader of--" > > "Spare me," I said. > > She cleared her throat. "Yes, certainly. But you must see, you > are the perfect choice."' . . . > > Vlad says "Spare me" to tell her that he did not want to hear about > it. Sethra the Younger understands, clears her throat and stops > talking about the subject. > > My thought is that she might have taken Vlad literally. > > Vlad says "Spare me" and Sethra the Younger misunderstands, clears > her throat and says "Yes, certainly" meaning Yes, certainly I will > not kill you when I kill all the other Easterners. > > I think she had the same problem Morrolan and Sethra had in Taltos. > She came to see Vlad thinking of him as a Jhereg and not as an > Easterner. > > Page 103 Vlad speaking: > > '"What makes you think I have any interest in doing you a service?" > > She looked startled. "Oh, I'm not asking you for a service." > > "You're not?" > > "No, no. I intend to pay you." > > I carefully controlled my reaction. "I see. Well, what is this > negotiation about?" > > "The sword, of course."' > > So, I think Sethra the Younger just agreed to not cut Vlad in half > with Kieron's greatsword. She may even consider that agreement to > be the payment for Vlad setting up the negotiation. I cannot find > direct text evidence of a payment being made by Sethra the Younger. > > Bye. > > Linda G. > From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Nov 26 10:53:33 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:53:33 -0800 Subject: Spare me In-Reply-To: <000501c4d3e2$ae37d220$44600d44@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <239601c4d3e9$3a948870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > was also thinking about that 'but you must see, you are the perfect > choice'.. she have in him mind as a military overlord/placed > king of the > easterners? why praytell would he be the perfect choice? > what else don't we > know about friend vlad.. I think y'all are reading a bit too much into this. "Spare me" Vlad voicing his displeasure about StY's ambitions re: conquering the East. I see no reason why she wouldn't understand this, it being rather obvious on the face. The idea that she might take him literally is an unlikely one, IMO. Whatever StY thinks of Easterners in general, she has enough personal and anectdotal acquaintance with Vlad to realize that he's not the sort to beg for his life, especially when it's not even being threatened. Indeed, if she was making the misjudgement of thinking of him as a Jhereg first and an Easterner second, she'd consider him "one of us" rather than "one of them". He wouldn't be on the list of "people to be conquered". StY's beef isn't with Easterners as a race, neccesarily. She wouldn't find any particular honor or satisfaction in "defeating" the Easterner ghetto in Adrilankha. She wants to conquer the East because it's the most convenient enemy at hand, and nobody's really ever managed it before. Kieron certainly put the hurt on them, but I can't recall any evidence that he ever set up an actual dictatorship over the East. In fact, the East appears to be a whole bunch of loosely allied kingdoms rather than a single political entity. "Conquering the East" is a lot like someone in the USA suggesting that we "Conquer the Middle East". You'd be trying to conquer a continent rather than a people. Logistically, a nightmare but certainly a chance for a commander on the order of an Alexander or a Napoleon to shine. These are the sorts of aspirations that drive StY, IMO. She wants to be the Dragaeran equivalent of Alexander the Great. As for "You're the perfect choice", she's once again merely commenting on his relationship with Morrolan and Aliera. He's personal friends with them, so he can broach topics with them that others might not be circumspect about. Likewise, as both a Jhereg and an Easterner, he's outside the societal mores that might prohibit StY from just proposing the deal herself. We don't really know why StY feels like she needs a go-between. It might be some sort of pride or ettiquette thing within House Dragon or it might simply be that she knows that Aliera dislikes her and she thinks that having Aliera's "pet Easterner" on her side will grease the wheels. Either way, Vlad IS the perfect negotiator. If you have a potentially shady deal or you're bargaining for a priceless heirloom like Kieron's Greatsword with someone who's likely to be offended by your temerity then you start the negotiation with the trusted associates. You don't just walk up and say "Hey, how about we swap swords?" I think that this is one of those cases where the cigar is just a cigar. From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 26 12:31:33 2004 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:31:33 -0500 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: References: <000201c4d306$9b7b4c70$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041126153045.02f53d70@pop.east.cox.net> At 16:53 11/25/2004 +0100, Martin Wohlert wrote: >>From: "Howard Brazee" >>To: >>Subject: RE: what would you be? >>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:51:19 -0700 >> >> >>I'm not cutting my beard, so I can't be a Dragaeran. > >Neither would I. > >>Which species have beards? > >Humans. ;) Remembering that Dragaerans refer to themselves as "humans", too, let's qualify that as "Easterner". -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Nov 26 13:30:27 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:30:27 EST Subject: Spare me Message-ID: <1eb.2ecea247.2ed8fa73@aol.com> Hi, I guess I should have kept quoting. Dragon, Chapter 6, paperback page 102 'She cleared her throat. "Yes, certainly. But you must see, you are the perfect choice. She trusts you, and even has some bizarre affection for you. And you could put it in terms that would make her see the mutual advantages. I don't know what the going rates are for such a service, but I have sufficient means to--where are you going?" "To drink seawater. It'll leave a better taste in my mouth than this conversation. Excuse me."' So the perfect choice meant the perfect choice to arrange the negotiations. bonham15 (andy) wrote on Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:06:38 -0600 >she have in him mind as a military overlord/placed king of >the easterners? I do not think Sethra the Younger understands Vlad at all. Therefore she could very well think that he would do that. I always thought she wanted to kill all the Easterners, but she does say "Conquer the East" and not exterminate them. And since no Dragon wants to rule, she would need some sort of puppet to rule the East for her. Vlad might just be the only Easterner she is familiar with and she thinks as a Jhereg she could pay him to do it. Scott Schultz wrote on Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:53:33 -0800 >I think y'all are reading a bit too much into this. I do that a lot with all of Steven Brust's books. This thought was actually based on two words "Spare me" instead of just one word "Heh". It is hard to wait for the books to be written and too easy to read "a bit too much into" things. Sometimes he hides things and wants us to find them. The Sun, The Moon, & the Stars", Chapter Seventeen, page 203 last page. "It would be nice if you were to find what I tried to put there, and even nicer if you discovered in the texture values of which I had inkling." Scott Schultz wrote on Fri, 26 Nov 2004 10:53:33 -0800 >StY's beef isn't with Easterners as a race, necessarily. >She wouldn't find any particular honor or satisfaction in >"defeating" the Easterner ghetto in Adrilankha. She wants >to conquer the East because it's the most convenient >enemy at hand, and nobody's really ever managed it before. I bet she got plenty of honor and satisfaction out of "defeating" the Easterner ghetto in Phoenix. I bet that got her back in the good graces of the Empress after what happened in Yendi. The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Chapter 14, page 340 '"Yes, continued Morrolan. "Sethra has established order in--" "Sethra! Lavode?" "How did she end up in command?" "The brigadier of the Phoenix Guards resigned yesterday over some dispute with the Empress. I don't know the details." "Maybe he didn't like the idea of slaughtering thousands of helpless Easterners." "Helpless? Vlad, weren't you listening? There were attacks the Imperial Palace. They laid siege to it. They actually threatened the Empress--" "Oh, come now. She could have teleported out anytime she wanted to." "That isn't the point, Vlad. Threatening the sanctity of--" "Can we change the subject?"' "You asked," he said stiffly." "Yeah, sorry." Loiosh flew back to my shoulder and nuzzled my ear. I said, "What about the war?" Bye. Linda G. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Nov 26 14:35:08 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:35:08 -0800 Subject: Spare me In-Reply-To: <1eb.2ecea247.2ed8fa73@aol.com> Message-ID: <24e801c4d408$2eea4b30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Chapter 14, page 340 > > '"Yes, continued Morrolan. "Sethra has established order in--" > > "Sethra! Lavode?" > > "How did she end up in command?" This indicates that it was "Sethra the Elder", not Sethra the Younger who was "restoring order" in the ghetto and it environs. If StY really found it glorious or advantageous to lead the charge against the revolting Easterners, she would have found a way to do it. Of course, this could just indicate that StY is still out of favor with the court and so she wasn't offered the honor of replacing the suddenly retired brigadier. For Sethra Lavode, this sort of action is typical. Her primary job seems to be the maintenance of an orderly Empire. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Nov 26 15:46:59 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:46:59 EST Subject: Spare me Message-ID: <146.3938d373.2ed91a73@aol.com> Eek, I missed a line typing and changed the whole meaning of the quote. I am sorry. I will try to be more careful. The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Chapter 14, page 340 '"Yes, continued Morrolan. "Sethra has established order in--" "Sethra! Lavode?" "Sethra the Younger." "How did she end up in command?" "The brigadier of the Phoenix Guards resigned yesterday over some dispute with the Empress. I don't know the details." "Maybe he didn't like the idea of slaughtering thousands of helpless Easterners." "Helpless? Vlad, weren't you listening? There were attacks the Imperial Palace. They laid siege to it. They actually threatened the Empress--" "Oh, come now. She could have teleported out anytime she wanted to." "That isn't the point, Vlad. Threatening the sanctity of--" "Can we change the subject?"' "You asked," he said stiffly." "Yeah, sorry." Loiosh flew back to my shoulder and nuzzled my ear. I said, "What about the war?" Bye. Linda G. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Nov 26 17:05:46 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 02:05:46 +0100 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041126153045.02f53d70@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: >From: "Peter H. Granzeau" >To: "Martin Wohlert" ,dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: what would you be? >Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:31:33 -0500 > >At 16:53 11/25/2004 +0100, Martin Wohlert wrote: > > >>>From: "Howard Brazee" >>>To: >>>Subject: RE: what would you be? >>>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:51:19 -0700 >>> >>> >>>I'm not cutting my beard, so I can't be a Dragaeran. >> >>Neither would I. >> >>>Which species have beards? >> >>Humans. ;) > >Remembering that Dragaerans refer to themselves as "humans", too, let's >qualify that as "Easterner". > > >-- >Regards, Pete That was why I added the ;) smilie... /Martin _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 27 16:14:46 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:14:46 -0000 Subject: Ideas In-Reply-To: <20041116023140.12493.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041128001346.KTF1092.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> -----Original Message----- Scott Schultz I'd assume those safeguards include ready access to Iceflame. Maybe Vlad will ask her about it someday. In Orca, Vlad says "I expected to see Iceflame in your hand", Sethra says, "You almost did" Point proved I think. Regards Mark From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Nov 27 19:55:02 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:55:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Fenarian recipe (camp cooking) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041128035502.14616.qmail@web13126.mail.yahoo.com> >From Prince Mikl?s: not Dragaeran, but Fenarian camp cooking. Vlad's ancestors are from Fenario, and Noish-pa was born there: Mikl?s sighed and put wood into the shallow pit where the fire had been placed the night before. He kindled flame using flint and thin pieces of bark he had picked up while traveling through the forest. When the fire began to burn, he took a loaf of bread and cut into strips which he set on the rocks next to the fire. >From the pack which he had purchased at the same time as the cloak, he took a slab of bacon and pushed a stick through it. Holding the stick with his left hand, he used his knife to make a checkered pattern on both sides of the bacon. Then he held the slab over the flame exactly the way his brother Vilmos had taught him. By the time the bread was toasted, grease began to drip from the bacon. He used his right hand to occasionally hold pieces of bread under it to catch the drippings as it cooked. B?lk watched him in silence. [_Brokedown Palace_, chapter 1, page 15 (Ace edition, first printing, January 1986)] -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Nov 29 11:28:46 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:28:46 -0800 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101756525.2366.289.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 18:49, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Thank you for you input. I just think it would be fun. And, Mr. Brust, > which house is your favorite? The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the Tiassa. From jtrager at keyway.net Mon Nov 29 16:38:32 2004 From: jtrager at keyway.net (jtrager at keyway.net) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:38:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <1101756525.2366.289.camel@localhost> References: <1101756525.2366.289.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <55770.63.67.56.125.1101775112.squirrel@63.67.56.125> And now we know woh the REAL Papa-Cat is. > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 18:49, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >> Thank you for you input. I just think it would be fun. And, Mr. >> Brust, >> which house is your favorite? > > The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the > moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the Tiassa. > > From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 08:16:09 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:16:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <1101756525.2366.289.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041130161609.59091.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Brust wrote: > On Wed, 2004-11-24 at 18:49, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > Thank you for you input. I just think it would be fun. Dragaera is one of the few such activities I'd consider doing (though I probably wouldn't actually do it). I have certain affinities with some of the Houses--Teckla, Athyra, Hawk, even Lyorn and Issola--but I'd probably end up as an Easterner. >> And, Mr. Brust, which house is your favorite? > > The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the > moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the Tiassa. Vlad, on the other hand, has a fondness for the Dragon. At least, almost all his Dragaeran friends are Dragons, including one or two quasi-Dragons and an ex-Dragon. That was especially true in his pre-fugitive days. Jerry Friedman is probably supposed to have learned something from all that. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 08:21:42 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:21:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spare me In-Reply-To: <000501c4d3e2$ae37d220$44600d44@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <20041130162142.76916.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Piggybacking, sorry. > > Sometimes when I have just a few minutes to read something, I pick up > > Dragon and randomly read. I had a thought on this passage: end of > > Chapter 6, Paperback page 104. > > > > Vlad speaking to Sethra the Younger: > > > > 'What I said was, "What would you do with Kieron's greatsword?" > > > > I could see her trying to decide if I deserved an answer. At last > > she said, "Conquer the East. It would be a tremendous symbol for > > the leader of--" > > > > "Spare me," I said. > > > > She cleared her throat. "Yes, certainly. But you must see, you > > are the perfect choice."' . . . > > > > Vlad says "Spare me" to tell her that he did not want to hear about > > it. Sethra the Younger understands, clears her throat and stops > > talking about the subject. > > > > My thought is that she might have taken Vlad literally. > > > > Vlad says "Spare me" and Sethra the Younger misunderstands, clears > > her throat and says "Yes, certainly" meaning Yes, certainly I will > > not kill you when I kill all the other Easterners. ... I think you were right the first time, but I got a "Heh" out of your suggested misunderstanding. Who knows, maybe it flashed through StY's bloodthirsty mind for an instant. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 30 10:40:20 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:40:20 -0700 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <20041130161609.59091.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041130161609.59091.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:16:09 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >>> And, Mr. Brust, which house is your favorite? >> >> The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the >> moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the Tiassa. > Vlad, on the other hand, has a fondness for the Dragon. At least, > almost all his Dragaeran friends are Dragons, including one or two > quasi-Dragons and an ex-Dragon. That was especially true in his > pre-fugitive days. Possibly. On the other hand, his relationship to Dragons has been primarily through Castle Black at the behest of someone who for a long time thought he was an Easterner, was a student of witchcraft, and who was liberal in his ideas. Does Vlad have an affinity for Sethra the Younger? Dragons aren't assassins. I notice that Steve was in the hospital for Thanksgiving. I hope he's better now. I spent Friday in the hospital as a cardiologist poked a hole in my groin and was looking at my heart. I expect I'll be back in a week or so for more work. At least I really, really hope so, as I want my health back. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 30 11:14:04 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:14:04 -0700 Subject: what would you be? References: <20041130161609.59091.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: Re: what would you be? > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:16:09 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > wrote: > > >>> And, Mr. Brust, which house is your favorite? > >> > >> The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the > >> moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the Tiassa. > > Vlad, on the other hand, has a fondness for the Dragon. At least, > > almost all his Dragaeran friends are Dragons, including one or two > > quasi-Dragons and an ex-Dragon. That was especially true in his > > pre-fugitive days. > > Possibly. On the other hand, his relationship to Dragons has been > primarily through Castle Black at the behest of someone who for a long > time thought he was an Easterner, was a student of witchcraft, and who was > liberal in his ideas. Does Vlad have an affinity for Sethra the Younger? > > Dragons aren't assassins. > But ex-Dragons are. . . . . . cough (Dolivar) cough.. . . . From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Tue Nov 30 11:15:49 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:15:49 -0500 Subject: what would you be? Message-ID: Best of luck man!!! -----Original Message----- From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:40 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: what would you be? On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:16:09 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >>> And, Mr. Brust, which house is your favorite? >> >> The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the >> moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the Tiassa. > Vlad, on the other hand, has a fondness for the Dragon. At least, > almost all his Dragaeran friends are Dragons, including one or two > quasi-Dragons and an ex-Dragon. That was especially true in his > pre-fugitive days. Possibly. On the other hand, his relationship to Dragons has been primarily through Castle Black at the behest of someone who for a long time thought he was an Easterner, was a student of witchcraft, and who was liberal in his ideas. Does Vlad have an affinity for Sethra the Younger? Dragons aren't assassins. I notice that Steve was in the hospital for Thanksgiving. I hope he's better now. I spent Friday in the hospital as a cardiologist poked a hole in my groin and was looking at my heart. I expect I'll be back in a week or so for more work. At least I really, really hope so, as I want my health back. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 30 13:03:21 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:03:21 -0500 Subject: what would you be? Message-ID: <5C5CA1C0.07013BE1.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/30/2004 1:40:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > I notice that Steve was in the hospital for Thanksgiving. I > hope he's better now. I hope so too. This seems to have been a bad weekend for a lot of people; my mother spent a couple hours at the hospital on Thanksgiving due to a nosebleed that wouldn't stop. > I spent Friday in the hospital as a cardiologist poked a hole > in my groin and was looking at my heart. That sounds, um, sub-optimal at the very least. But there's gotta be a joke in there somewhere... Maybe "We know where your heart lies." or "The way to a man's heart is through his..." --KG From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 30 13:36:17 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:36:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <5C5CA1C0.07013BE1.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200411302136.iAULaHic075125@realtime.exit.com> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/30/2004 1:40:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > > I notice that Steve was in the hospital for Thanksgiving. I > > hope he's better now. > I hope so too. This seems to have been a bad weekend for a lot > of people; my mother spent a couple hours at the hospital on > Thanksgiving due to a nosebleed that wouldn't stop. Hm. My manager at work is in hospital right now, in fact, as a result of a "little accident" with a horse. Something going around? > > I spent Friday in the hospital as a cardiologist poked a hole > > in my groin and was looking at my heart. This, I didn't need to know. Ow. > Maybe "We know where your heart lies." or > "The way to a man's heart is through his..." Ribcage. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Nov 30 13:13:01 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:13:01 -0500 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: References: <20041130161609.59091.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> On 30 Nov 2004 at 11:40, Howard Brazee wrote > I notice that Steve was in the hospital for Thanksgiving. I hope > he's better now. I spent Friday in the hospital as a cardiologist > poked a hole in my groin and was looking at my heart. I expect I'll > be back in a week or so for more work. At least I really, really > hope so, as I want my health back. > Huh - I just had a discussion with my cousin as to how depressing it would be to be stuck in the hospital over Thanksgiving. Hope you're both (and anyone else unlucky enough to need hospitalization) feeling better. No offense - but groin to heart seems rather the long scenic route, no? M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From casey at the-bat.net Tue Nov 30 13:40:28 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:40:28 -0500 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <200411302136.iAULaHic075125@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: > Hm. My manager at work is in hospital right now, in fact, as > a result of a "little accident" with a horse. Do tell. I wasn't aware it was possible to have a _little_ accident with a horse that requires a hospital stay. :) From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 30 13:50:14 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:50:14 -0700 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> References: <20041130161609.59091.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:13:01 -0500, Michele Riccio wrote: > No offense - but groin to heart seems rather the long scenic route, > no? Nice big artery on the inside of my leg. Poke a hole in that artery and manipulate the tools through. I suppose the neck would work, but I'd rather have limited flow to my leg than to my brain. When my father had bypass surgery they had to go through his rib-cage. That takes a while to heal. I can barely see where they cut me from Friday. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 30 13:55:02 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:55:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <200411302142.iAULg2YT023807@tinker.exit.com> Message-ID: <200411302155.iAULt2ck075388@realtime.exit.com> Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Hm. My manager at work is in hospital right now, in fact, as > > a result of a "little accident" with a horse. > Do tell. I wasn't aware it was possible to have a _little_ accident with a > horse that requires a hospital stay. :) Unfortunately, that's all I know. This was a new one on me, too. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 30 13:54:50 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:54:50 -0700 Subject: what would you be? Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:40:28 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: >> Hm. My manager at work is in hospital right now, in fact, as >> a result of a "little accident" with a horse. > Do tell. I wasn't aware it was possible to have a _little_ accident > with a horse that requires a hospital stay. If you're around horses long enough - you will get hurt. The definition of "little" varies depending on what kind of accidents you are used to. Of course it might not have been an accident at all. Maybe the horse did it on purpose. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Nov 30 13:34:53 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:34:53 -0500 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> Message-ID: <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> On 30 Nov 2004 at 14:50, Howard Brazee wrote > > Nice big artery on the inside of my leg. Poke a hole in that artery > and manipulate the tools through. I suppose the neck would work, > but I'd rather have limited flow to my leg than to my brain. I suppose...I still feel like it's the long way around. Makes you feel envious of Vlad's close association with competent magical healers though, doesn't it? M (in a "vein" attempt to put this on topic) Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 30 14:54:27 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:54:27 -0700 Subject: what would you be? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:54 PM Subject: Re: what would you be? > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:40:28 -0500, Casey Rousseau > wrote: > > >> Hm. My manager at work is in hospital right now, in fact, as > >> a result of a "little accident" with a horse. > > > Do tell. I wasn't aware it was possible to have a _little_ accident > > with a horse that requires a hospital stay. > > If you're around horses long enough - you will get hurt. The definition > of "little" varies depending on what kind of accidents you are used to. > > Of course it might not have been an accident at all. Maybe the horse did > it on purpose. > > -- That's the problem with riding a semi-intelligent animal, you may not both have the destination in mind. Jeff G. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 30 16:38:26 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:38:26 +0000 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Jeff G." To: Subject: Re: what would you be? Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:54:27 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:54 PM Subject: Re: what would you be? > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:40:28 -0500, Casey Rousseau > wrote: > > >> Hm. My manager at work is in hospital right now, in fact, as > >> a result of a "little accident" with a horse. > > > Do tell. I wasn't aware it was possible to have a _little_ accident > > with a horse that requires a hospital stay. > > If you're around horses long enough - you will get hurt. The definition > of "little" varies depending on what kind of accidents you are used to. > > Of course it might not have been an accident at all. Maybe the horse did > it on purpose. > > -- That's the problem with riding a semi-intelligent animal, you may not both have the SAME destination in mind. Jeff G. Oops. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 16:39:17 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:39:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041201003918.238.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jeff G." wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Brazee" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:40 AM > Subject: Re: what would you be? > > > > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:16:09 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > > wrote: > > > > >>> And, Mr. Brust, which house is your favorite? > > >> > > >> The PC answer would be, whichever House I'm writing about at the > > >> moment. The truth is that I've always had a fondness for the > Tiassa. > > > Vlad, on the other hand, has a fondness for the Dragon. At least, > > > almost all his Dragaeran friends are Dragons, including one or two > > > quasi-Dragons and an ex-Dragon. That was especially true in his > > > pre-fugitive days. > > > > Possibly. On the other hand, his relationship to Dragons has been > > primarily through Castle Black at the behest of someone who for a long > > time thought he was an Easterner, was a student of witchcraft, and who > was > > liberal in his ideas. The behest was of both Morrolan and Sethra Lavode, and what's interesting is not so much that he met them as that he got along with them. He has the same indomitability but is better at intrigue--perfect for him. > Does Vlad have an affinity for Sethra the Younger? I didn't say that most Dragons are Vlad's friends, just that most of his friends are Dragons. > > Dragons aren't assassins. > > > > But ex-Dragons are. . . . . . cough (Dolivar) cough.. . . . Not to mention Kragar. It's an interesting idea, though, that Vlad might have a predilection for Dragons because he's the reincarnation of Dolivar. Howard and Steve, get well--that's an order! Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 30 16:39:26 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:39:26 -0600 Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> (Michele Riccio's message of "Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:34:53 -0500") References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> Message-ID: "Michele Riccio" writes: > On 30 Nov 2004 at 14:50, Howard Brazee wrote > >> >> Nice big artery on the inside of my leg. Poke a hole in that artery >> and manipulate the tools through. I suppose the neck would work, >> but I'd rather have limited flow to my leg than to my brain. > > I suppose...I still feel like it's the long way around. Makes you feel > envious of Vlad's close association with competent magical healers > though, doesn't it? The more direct route requires cracking the rib-cage open. They avoid doing this if at all possible, because it's a *really big deal*. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 17:39:30 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:39:30 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> Message-ID: http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/11/30/winner-nanowrimo-2004/ Day 30: 2730 / 2088, 52,164 / 50,000 In which the weary writer discovers the he is now "a novelist", and enjoys a brew with the dogs while watching falling snow, your basic scene of domestic bliss. Oh, yeah, the wife's proud, too. 8) It's official, I've "won" the National Novel Writing Month competition for 2004 with an "official" wordcount of 52,164 words as of this afternoon. The thing is, I didn't upload the final story to my FTP server to share before I left work, and I'm actually lacking the final third of the final chapter. It's a corker. I can't wait to share it with you. I won't share it with you until I can share the entire first draft, so that means tomorrow, people. Probably tomorrow morning. So I'm probably going to clock in around 54,000 words by the time I upload the full story tomorrow, but the goal was to hit 50,000 words by midnight 11/30, and I've done that as of 7am this morning. I'll upload the full rough draft of _The Sky Pirate_ tomorrow morning in .doc and .pdf format, and it will be an interesting ending to the first novel, I promise. I'd like to take a couple moments and reflect on this past month, but I'm going to save that for later. For now, I'm sitting here in my house watching the snow fall (first time this season), with a cold Corona in my hand and two warm puppies in my lap. I am content. As of today, I am a Novelist. I'm sitting here and soaking in that revelation. To quote the theme song from Firefly, http://computercrowsnest.com/sfnews2/04_nov/review1104_9.shtml: Take my love, take my land Take me where I cannot stand I don't care, I'm still free You can't take the sky from me Take me out, to the black Tell 'em I ain't comin' back Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me Have no place I can be since I found Serenity But you can't take the sky from me . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 30 18:44:46 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:44:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: what would you be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200412010244.iB12ikYg080912@realtime.exit.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > The more direct route requires cracking the rib-cage open. They avoid > doing this if at all possible, because it's a *really big deal*. IHNJH, IJLS "rib spreader." (If you _must_ know, okay, it's "I have no joke here, I just like saying...") -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From shannon3d at yahoo.com Tue Nov 30 21:31:53 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041201053153.95008.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> Bravo! Bravo! Excellant job! I officially clocked in about 2 hours ago with 50,596 words under my NaNoWriMo belt. The Novel is about 2/3 or 3/4 finished and I actually just started to like it so I'll probably finish it sooner rather than later. Any more NaNo winners on the list? Shannon Johne Cook wrote: http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/11/30/winner-nanowrimo-2004/ Day 30: 2730 / 2088, 52,164 / 50,000 In which the weary writer discovers the he is now "a novelist", and enjoys a brew with the dogs while watching falling snow, your basic scene of domestic bliss. Oh, yeah, the wife's proud, too. 8) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 30 22:17:49 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:17:49 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: (Johne Cook's message of "Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:39:30 -0600") References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> Message-ID: Johne Cook writes: > I'd like to take a couple moments and reflect on this past month, but > I'm going to save that for later. For now, I'm sitting here in my > house watching the snow fall (first time this season), with a cold > Corona in my hand and two warm puppies in my lap. I am content. As of > today, I am a Novelist. I'm sitting here and soaking in that > revelation. Congratulations! Good going to get it finished. Do mention when you post a version for people to look at; I'll take a look (and I promise not to post a critique here -- it being off-topic and all :-)). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 1 06:24:13 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:24:13 -0500 Subject: what would you be? Message-ID: <089F2D32.11B7076B.00184D6D@aol.com> > I notice that Steve was in the hospital for Thanksgiving. I hope > he's better now. I spent Friday in the hospital as a cardiologist > poked a hole in my groin and was looking at my heart. I expect I'll > be back in a week or so for more work. At least I really, really > hope so, as I want my health back. Wow, I hope you guys feel better! -Crystal From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Dec 1 06:44:44 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:44:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <20041201053153.95008.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041201053153.95008.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Shannon Wimberly wrote: @> Any more NaNo winners on the list? Well, me, but I failed miserably. Trying to decide if I want to finish this thing in December anyway. Seems a shame to partially write a book. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Dec 1 01:55:51 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:55:51 -0800 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> Message-ID: <1101894951.2366.415.camel@localhost> Congratulations. Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a writer will ever have to do, and you're past it. On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 17:39, Johne Cook wrote: > http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/11/30/winner-nanowrimo-2004/ > Day 30: 2730 / 2088, 52,164 / 50,000 > > In which the weary writer discovers the he is now "a novelist", and > enjoys a brew with the dogs while watching falling snow, your basic > scene of domestic bliss. Oh, yeah, the wife's proud, too. 8) > > > It's official, I've "won" the National Novel Writing Month competition > for 2004 with an "official" wordcount of 52,164 words as of this > afternoon. > > The thing is, I didn't upload the final story to my FTP server to > share before I left work, and I'm actually lacking the final third of > the final chapter. It's a corker. I can't wait to share it with you. I > won't share it with you until I can share the entire first draft, so > that means tomorrow, people. Probably tomorrow morning. > > So I'm probably going to clock in around 54,000 words by the time I > upload the full story tomorrow, but the goal was to hit 50,000 words > by midnight 11/30, and I've done that as of 7am this morning. > > I'll upload the full rough draft of _The Sky Pirate_ tomorrow morning > in .doc and .pdf format, and it will be an interesting ending to the > first novel, I promise. > > I'd like to take a couple moments and reflect on this past month, but > I'm going to save that for later. For now, I'm sitting here in my > house watching the snow fall (first time this season), with a cold > Corona in my hand and two warm puppies in my lap. I am content. As of > today, I am a Novelist. I'm sitting here and soaking in that > revelation. > > To quote the theme song from Firefly, > http://computercrowsnest.com/sfnews2/04_nov/review1104_9.shtml: > > Take my love, take my land > Take me where I cannot stand > I don't care, I'm still free > You can't take the sky from me > > Take me out, to the black > Tell 'em I ain't comin' back > Burn the land and boil the sea > You can't take the sky from me > > Have no place I can be > since I found Serenity > But you can't take the sky from me > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > johne cook > wisconsin, usa > johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com > http://www.phywriter.com > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > From kate at mail.browser.net Wed Dec 1 07:19:31 2004 From: kate at mail.browser.net (Kate Jones) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:19:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <20041201053153.95008.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> from "Shannon Wimberly" at Nov 30, 2004 09:31:53 PM Message-ID: <200412011519.iB1FJWu21084@mail.browser.net> > Any more NaNo winners on the list? I got up to 64,102 words as of last night...with plenty of story to go. Kate -- Kate Jones | The sweetest part is acting kate at tulgey.browser.net | after making a decision. From lqmiller at ev1.net Wed Dec 1 10:40:10 2004 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:40:10 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20041201123835.017bae18@mail.ev1.net> At 07:39 PM 11/30/2004 -0600, Johne Cook wrote: >I'd like to take a couple moments and reflect on this past month, but >I'm going to save that for later. For now, I'm sitting here in my >house watching the snow fall (first time this season), with a cold >Corona in my hand and two warm puppies in my lap. I am content. As of >today, I am a Novelist. I'm sitting here and soaking in that >revelation. Congratulations and best wishes. I'm on the far end of the spectrum -- took me most of my adult life to give myself permission _not_ to be a novelist. For some reason, the absence of any actual completed novels wasn't enough of a hint... Louann "like Rincewind was a wizard" Miller From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 1 10:56:17 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:56:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <1101894951.2366.415.camel@localhost> References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> <1101894951.2366.415.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > ... Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a writer > will ever have to do [...] Ever try to write a non-cringe-causing villanelle? I'm not at all a novelist, but based on hearsay - is it not the case that it's harder to write a satisfactory second novel than a first? I figure I've got a novel in me somewhere but probably not two. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:19:03 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:19:03 -0700 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 References: <41AC9C0D.29261.17D5F83@localhost> <41ACA12D.16442.19165F6@localhost> <1101894951.2366.415.camel@localhost> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 > > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > > > ... Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a writer > > will ever have to do [...] > > Ever try to write a non-cringe-causing villanelle? > > I'm not at all a novelist, but based on hearsay - is it not the case > that it's harder to write a satisfactory second novel than a first? > I figure I've got a novel in me somewhere but probably not two. > heh. One hard sci-fi, one romance (don't ask), a children's book and a manga storyline are currently percolating in my cranium. Fortunately, I am such a procrastinator, by the time I get around to putting pen to paper, I will have finished writing them in my mind. I am in awe of you that found the time to punch out 50k + words in a month, and have them remain in any coherent form. Whenever I attempt to write that way I end up changing direction or style before I am through. Jeff From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Dec 1 11:48:19 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:48:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041201194819.34797.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > > > ... Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a writer > > will ever have to do [...] > > Ever try to write a non-cringe-causing villanelle? Yeah. Heck, I think I've done it (though I haven't looked at any (either?) of my villanelles for a decade or two). Ever try getting one published? > I'm not at all a novelist, but based on hearsay - is it not the case > that it's harder to write a satisfactory second novel than a first? > I figure I've got a novel in me somewhere but probably not two. That, not Steve's, was my experience. I enjoyed writing a novel (over about 6 or 8 years), but I can't imagine trying a second. I think that in the last year I wrote a short story and a poem (and a song). It might be time to take Louann's tack. Jerry Friedman regrets to inform you that nobody wanted to publish that novel. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Dec 1 11:52:00 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:52:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041201195200.79850.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Johne Cook wrote: > http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/11/30/winner-nanowrimo-2004/ > Day 30: 2730 / 2088, 52,164 / 50,000 > > In which the weary writer discovers the he is now "a novelist", and > enjoys a brew with the dogs while watching falling snow, your basic > scene of domestic bliss. Oh, yeah, the wife's proud, too. 8) Mazel tov! The way I figure it, you're about 60 or 70 times faster than I am :-) Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:59:30 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:59:30 -0600 Subject: NaNoWriMo 2004 novel available for download In-Reply-To: <20041201195200.79850.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041201195200.79850.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is the final update from me for this book (please hold your applause). ;) http://phywriter.com/archives/2004/12/01/download-_the-sky-pirate_-here/ I'm finished with the first, rough draft of _The Sky Pirate_. The document clocks in at 55,315 words, is 186 pages long, and is available in Word .doc and Adobe .pdf formats: The_Sky_Pirate.doc http://s94662209.onlinehome.us/files/the_sky_pirate.doc The_Sky_Pirate.pdf http://s94662209.onlinehome.us/files/the_sky_pirate.pdf Thanks for going on this ride with me. I'm open to any questions, suggestions, nits, gnats, or kudos. I hope you receive as much enjoyment in reading the novel as had in writing it over these past thirty days (and long, sleepless nights). Johne (Phy) Cook Breezeway, WI November, 2004 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From dave at waveridersystems.com Wed Dec 1 20:53:47 2004 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:53:47 -0800 Subject: what would you be? References: <1101756525.2366.289.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <000f01c4d82a$ea25fa40$fecaf7a5@queeg.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:28 AM Subject: Re: what would you be? I am Serioli. From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 2 09:19:03 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:19:03 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo 2004 novel available for download Message-ID: <0D308E2B.74490770.00184D6D@aol.com> This is probably really stupid, but I write all my stories (every unfinished one) on paper w/ pen. I tried typing (I can't afford a lap top yet), but when I got an idea of what to do next, I didn't get to the computer fast enough before I forgot. Oh well. Keep up the great work who ever else is writting and acctually finishes! -Crystal From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Dec 2 09:16:03 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:16:03 -0500 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <1101894951.2366.415.camel@localhost> References: Message-ID: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> On 1 Dec 2004 at 1:55, Steve Brust wrote > Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a > writer will ever have to do > Huh. I'm finding the query letter much more difficult. I mean, if I could easily have condensed my idea into two paragraphs - why would I bother writing 200+ pages? Perhaps another re-write... M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Dec 2 06:44:12 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 06:44:12 -0800 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> References: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> Message-ID: <1101998652.2366.482.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 09:16, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 1 Dec 2004 at 1:55, Steve Brust wrote > > > > Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a > > writer will ever have to do > > > > Huh. I'm finding the query letter much more difficult. I mean, if I > could easily have condensed my idea into two paragraphs - why > would I bother writing 200+ pages? Perhaps another re-write... The query letter should read as follows: Good morning: This is my [science-fiction/fantasy/whatever] novel called, [title]. I hope you like it. [Optional: My professional writing credits are ...] Sincerely, [name] From shannon3d at yahoo.com Thu Dec 2 12:04:07 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:04:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <1101998652.2366.482.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20041202200407.60096.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, I see. Go for the simple, straight-forward approach. Steve Brust wrote:On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 09:16, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 1 Dec 2004 at 1:55, Steve Brust wrote > > > > Finishing a first novel is the hardest thing a > > writer will ever have to do > > > > Huh. I'm finding the query letter much more difficult. I mean, if I > could easily have condensed my idea into two paragraphs - why > would I bother writing 200+ pages? Perhaps another re-write... The query letter should read as follows: Good morning: This is my [science-fiction/fantasy/whatever] novel called, [title]. I hope you like it. [Optional: My professional writing credits are ...] Sincerely, [name] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 12:04:43 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:04:43 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <1101998652.2366.482.camel@localhost> References: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> <1101998652.2366.482.camel@localhost> Message-ID: > The query letter should read as follows: > > Good morning: > > This is my [science-fiction/fantasy/whatever] novel called, [title]. I > hope you like it. [Optional: My professional writing credits are ...] > > Sincerely, > > [name] So, short and to the point, and let the manuscript stand on its own merits? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Dec 2 11:59:12 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:59:12 -0500 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <1101998652.2366.482.camel@localhost> References: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> Message-ID: <41AF2DC0.9091.12EC967@localhost> On 2 Dec 2004 at 6:44, Steve Brust wrote > The query letter should read as follows: > > Good morning: > > This is my [science-fiction/fantasy/whatever] novel called, [title]. > I hope you like it. [Optional: My professional writing credits are > ...] > > Sincerely, > > [name] > Hey - if it worked for you, maybe it will work for me. If it does, I'll mention you in the acknwledgements. thanks Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Dec 2 08:03:01 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:03:01 -0800 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> <1101998652.2366.482.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1102003381.2366.490.camel@localhost> Right. The object is to avoid saying anything that will put a sour look on the editor's face. On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 12:04, Johne Cook wrote: > > The query letter should read as follows: > > > > Good morning: > > > > This is my [science-fiction/fantasy/whatever] novel called, [title]. I > > hope you like it. [Optional: My professional writing credits are ...] > > > > Sincerely, > > > > [name] > > > So, short and to the point, and let the manuscript stand on its own merits? > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > johne cook > wisconsin, usa > johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com > http://www.phywriter.com > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > From lqmiller at ev1.net Thu Dec 2 13:07:17 2004 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:07:17 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> References: <1101894951.2366.415.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20041202150619.01e6df78@mail.ev1.net> At 12:16 PM 12/2/2004 -0500, Michele Riccio wrote: dragaera at dragaera.info >Huh. I'm finding the query letter much more difficult. I mean, if I >could easily have condensed my idea into two paragraphs - why >would I bother writing 200+ pages? You are Paarfi, and I claim my five pounds. Louann From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 2 14:04:16 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:04:16 -0500 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 Message-ID: <124C445E.4854F9F0.00184D6D@aol.com> Hey - if it worked for you, maybe it will work for me. If it does, I'll mention you in the acknwledgements. thanks Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com You should just put him in anyway because Mr. Brust is the best writter (no my nose isn't brown but I am blushing for being so bold). -Crystal From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 2 14:21:53 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:21:53 EST Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 Message-ID: In a message dated 12/02/2004 5:14:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: Hey - if it worked for you, maybe it will work for me. If it does, I'll mention you in the acknwledgements. thanks Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com You should just put him in anyway because Mr. Brust is the best writter (no my nose isn't brown but I am blushing for being so bold). -Crystal try www.capcollege.bc.ca/dept/cmns/queries.html and www.sfwa.org/writing/op71.htm for good articles on query letter. John D. Barbato, OD From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 2 14:25:35 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:25:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 Message-ID: <200412022225.iB2MPZtN026044@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> -Crystal wrote: > You should just put him in anyway because Mr. Brust is the best writer > (no my nose isn't brown but I am blushing for being so bold). Do you blush when announcing the Pacific is a trifle damp? Chris (Who happens to agree with you:) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Dec 2 14:29:34 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:29:34 -0500 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <200412022225.iB2MPZtN026044@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200412022225.iB2MPZtN026044@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2004, at 5:25 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > -Crystal wrote: >> You should just put him in anyway because Mr. Brust is the best writer >> (no my nose isn't brown but I am blushing for being so bold). > > Do you blush when announcing the Pacific is > a trifle damp? > > > Chris (Who happens to agree with you:) I get a lot of inspiration from Steve; I fire up his books page when I am in a funk to read what he thinks about his books. Keeps me going knowing that I'm not the only one who struggles with books. From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Dec 2 14:03:54 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 17:03:54 -0500 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20041202150619.01e6df78@mail.ev1.net> References: <41AF0783.10312.996357@localhost> Message-ID: <41AF4AFA.11781.1A0F619@localhost> On 2 Dec 2004 at 15:07, Louann Miller wrote > You are Paarfi, and I claim my five pounds. > > Louann > No - I am but a pale shadow of that Master of Verbiage. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From casey at the-bat.net Thu Dec 2 14:52:11 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:52:11 -0500 Subject: Books by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris Turkel writ: > I get a lot of inspiration from Steve; I fire up his books > page when I am in a funk to read what he thinks about his > books. Keeps me going knowing that I'm not the only one who > struggles with books. Speaking of which... O stalwart author, may we your humblest servants tremblingly dare to ask if, perchance, you have given a thought to updating the aforementioned page with your impressions of one or more of your recent volumes? :) http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html for those of you not yet familiar with it. Casey From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Dec 2 10:02:29 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:02:29 -0800 Subject: Books by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: <1102010495.2366.497.camel@localhost> References: <1102010495.2366.497.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1102010549.2366.498.camel@localhost> Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that. I should send some email to Felix. He's usually pretty fast with it, but the last time I sent him an update it didn't get on. On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 14:52, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Chris Turkel writ: > > I get a lot of inspiration from Steve; I fire up his books > > page when I am in a funk to read what he thinks about his > > books. Keeps me going knowing that I'm not the only one who > > struggles with books. > > Speaking of which... > > O stalwart author, may we your humblest servants tremblingly dare to ask if, > perchance, you have given a thought to updating the aforementioned page with > your impressions of one or more of your recent volumes? > > :) > > http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html for those of you not yet familiar with > it. > > Casey > > > From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 15:08:56 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:08:56 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <200412022225.iB2MPZtN026044@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: > I get a lot of inspiration from Steve; I fire up his books page when I > am in a funk to read what he thinks about his books. Keeps me going > knowing that I'm not the only one who struggles with books. > > I'm going to say something that will appear awfully fanboyish; there's no help for that. I'm also going to introduce an element of faith, which can be even dicier, but it's part of the story, and I'm not as shy about that as being tagged a mindless fanboi. ; ) I like who I like but I don't go weak in the knees when the object of my fascination is mentioned. It's not anything worse than a tic. Maybe a tremor. I digress. I deliberately started getting geared up for NaNo2k4 pretty early this year, like, in mid-September. I cast about for different ways to do that and ended up reading the first Omnibus of the Vladiad (hope I have that spelled correctly). I was so taken with the verve and vibe of Vlad that I was revved up for NaNoWriMo, and that creative excitement and energy carried me right into the beginning of the second week, where I hit the stereotypical wall head-on at highway speeds and had to pick myself back up and soldier on ahead without the benefit of all that kinetic energy. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone else, but it worked for me. I had the picture in my head of a guy with six months to kill and a particular mood in his head, and then I compressed that into thirty days. It's true - Steve was a huge inspiration while I was preparing for this; Steve, and my unshaken belief that the creative process is a gift from the Christian God whom I believe in and attempt to serve, with fear, trembling, and a keen sense of hypocrisy. I'm also a hardcore PC FPS gamer, so one wonders how devout I could be, and far be it from me to defend myself on that score. So I went rolling into this challenge with the staunch belief that creation (or invention, if you will) of this sort pleases my Creator and with the attitude of a cocky, dangerous assassin who is the consummate professional, has his own ethical system, and has earned these magnificent, die-hard friends. These things were in the back of my mind, a strange mix that pleased me deeply, the melding of the divine and the earthy. There's an energy and ambition in the writing of _Jhereg_, for example, that overcomes a multitude of sins and set the stage for great works later on. You can see Steve mature and develop with each new book, and if he did it, I told myself that it is theoretically possible for myself to walk that path as well. These are the things that got me going and kept me going through many late nights and apparent dead-ends. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 2 16:09:47 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:09:47 EST Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 Message-ID: <62.4956edf1.2ee108cb@aol.com> In a message dated 12/02/2004 6:10:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, johne.cook at gmail.com writes: >>I get a lot of inspiration from Steve; I fire up his books page when I > am in a funk to read what he thinks about his books. Keeps me going >> knowing that I'm not the only one who struggles with books. > > >I'm going to say something that will appear awfully fanboyish; there's >no help for that. I'm also going to introduce an element of faith, >which can be even dicier, but it's part of the story, and I'm not as >shy about that as being tagged a mindless fanboi. ; ) I like who I >like but I don't go weak in the knees when the object of my >fascination is mentioned. It's not anything worse than a tic. Maybe >a tremor. I digress. >I deliberately started getting geared up for NaNo2k4 pretty early this >year, like, in mid-September. I cast about for different ways to do >that and ended up reading the first Omnibus of the Vladiad (hope I >have that spelled correctly). >I was so taken with the verve and vibe of Vlad that I was revved up f>or NaNoWriMo, and that creative excitement and energy carried me >right into the beginning of the second week, where I hit the >stereotypical wall head-on at highway speeds and had to pick myself >back up and soldier on ahead without the benefit of all that kinetic >energy. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone else, but it worked for >me. I had the picture in my head of a guy with six months to kill and >a particular mood in his head, and then I compressed that into thirty >days. >It's true - Steve was a huge inspiration while I was preparing for >this; Steve, and my unshaken belief that the creative process is a >gift from the Christian God whom I believe in and attempt to serve, >with fear, trembling, and a keen sense of hypocrisy. I'm also a >hardcore PC FPS gamer, so one wonders how devout I could be, and far >be it from me to defend myself on that score. >So I went rolling into this challenge with the staunch belief that >creation (or invention, if you will) of this sort pleases my Creator >and with the attitude of a cocky, dangerous assassin who is the >consummate professional, has his own ethical system, and has earned >these magnificent, die-hard friends. These things were in the back of >my mind, a strange mix that pleased me deeply, the melding of the >divine and the earthy. >There's an energy and ambition in the writing of _Jhereg_, for >example, that overcomes a multitude of sins and set the stage for >great works later on. You can see Steve mature and develop with each >new book, and if he did it, I told myself that it is theoretically possible for myself to walk that path as well. >These are the things that got me going and kept me going through many >late nights and apparent dead-ends. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > johne cook wisconsin, usa >johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com > http://www.phywriter.com Your a freak......but your OUR FREAK. Kudos and God Bless. : ) John D. Barbato, OD From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Thu Dec 2 16:51:54 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:51:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041203005154.39712.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Johne Cook wrote: ... > It's true - Steve was a huge inspiration while I was preparing for > this; Steve, and my unshaken belief that the creative process is a > gift from the Christian God whom I believe in and attempt to serve, > with fear, trembling, and a keen sense of hypocrisy. I'm also a > hardcore PC FPS gamer, so one wonders how devout I could be, and far > be it from me to defend myself on that score. ... Did Jesus say anything against gaming? It might be frivolous, but let him who is without recreation cast the first stone. > There's an energy and ambition in the writing of _Jhereg_, for > example, that overcomes a multitude of sins and set the stage for > great works later on. You can see Steve mature and develop with each > new book, and if he did it, I told myself that it is theoretically > possible for myself to walk that path as well. Well said. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mneme at io.com Fri Dec 3 07:32:55 2004 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:32:55 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <200412022225.iB2MPZtN026044@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <16816.34599.790625.38619@fnord.io.com> Johne Cook writes: >with fear, trembling, and a keen sense of hypocrisy. I'm also a >hardcore PC FPS gamer, so one wonders how devout I could be, and far >be it from me to defend myself on that score. Can't see why religon and FPS (or any gaming) are incompatable, except for certain edge-case religions or games with real consequences. >So I went rolling into this challenge with the staunch belief that >creation (or invention, if you will) Tolkien, I suspect, would say "subcreation". -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Dec 3 07:50:14 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:50:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: <20041203005154.39712.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041203005154.39712.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: @> > It's true - Steve was a huge inspiration while I was preparing for @> > this; Steve, and my unshaken belief that the creative process is a @> > gift from the Christian God whom I believe in and attempt to serve, @> > with fear, trembling, and a keen sense of hypocrisy. I'm also a @> > hardcore PC FPS gamer, so one wonders how devout I could be, and far @> > be it from me to defend myself on that score. @> ... @> @> Did Jesus say anything against gaming? It might be frivolous, but @> let him who is without recreation cast the first stone. http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-08-04&res=l From johne.cook at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 08:21:24 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:21:24 -0600 Subject: Winner, NaNoWriMo 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <20041203005154.39712.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:50:14 -0500 (EST), John Klein wrote: > http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-08-04&res=l Always love the PA / Jesus strips. Like this one, for example: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2000-09-11&res=l Or one of my personal favorites from last December: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-12-12&res=l "What's up, lamb of hosts..." (btw, not to introduce yet another tangent, but Tycho from PA is one helluva writer. That guy's vocabulary is hung like a horse (to torture an already tortured metaphor from Brent from PvP). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From seanprice at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 10:25:43 2004 From: seanprice at gmail.com (Sean Price) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:25:43 -1000 Subject: Books by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: <1102010549.2366.498.camel@localhost> References: <1102010495.2366.497.camel@localhost> <1102010549.2366.498.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <97c6ac1b04120310255829f56f@mail.gmail.com> Speaking of updates, have you given any thought to pushing out your log as an RSS feed? (aka weblog...) A lot of writers are set up that way, Neil Gaimon (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/rss.asp) and William Gibson(http://www.williamgibsonbooks.com/blog/archive.asp) are 2 that I subscribe to. Technically, it's a very easy thing to set up. -- Sean On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:02:29 -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that. I should send some email to > Felix. He's usually pretty fast with it, but the last time I sent him > an update it didn't get on. > > On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 14:52, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Chris Turkel writ: > > > I get a lot of inspiration from Steve; I fire up his books > > > page when I am in a funk to read what he thinks about his > > > books. Keeps me going knowing that I'm not the only one who > > > struggles with books. > > > > Speaking of which... > > > > O stalwart author, may we your humblest servants tremblingly dare to ask if, > > perchance, you have given a thought to updating the aforementioned page with > > your impressions of one or more of your recent volumes? > > > > :) > > > > http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html for those of you not yet familiar with > > it. > > > > Casey > > > > > > > > From rafehatfield at mcgrath.com.au Sun Dec 5 14:48:53 2004 From: rafehatfield at mcgrath.com.au (Rafe Hatfield) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:48:53 +1100 Subject: FW: you suck Message-ID: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD925@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> Hi All, I joined your mailing list a couple of weeks ago, but so far haven't really had much to add to your conversations - I've just been using you all as my personal daily dribble of Dragaera to whet my appetite and keep the boredom blues at bay whilst I sit here coding away. Anywho, this morning I received this from a friend of mine that I recently loaned the first few Vlad books to and thought I'd share with you all. Take a trip down memory lane to the time when you first happened to come across the blessed goodness that is Vlad and his adventures... (heh, and you should also note the time the email was sent). by the way - not sure on the list's general view of language in emails, apologies if the couple of expletives below offends anyone, I thought the impact and obvious sincerity would be lost if i started playing with it (although i have removed the names to protect the seemingly innocent). cya, rafe -----Original Message----- From: A... Sent: Monday, 6 December 2004 2:36 AM To: Rafe Hatfield Subject: you suck Hello Rafe. Just to let you know that I hate you - you suck. How dare you expose me to the evil that is Steven Brust. I know now that I will never read another of your recommendations again. First Zhereg: Such intrigue, such subtlety, such kick-ass plotting and scheming in a world which was painted oh so perfectly. Great, loved it. It impressed me profoundly, and retaught me the art of enjoying the story for itself and not its crafting. Then came Yendi: By now, I'd realised that Roger is a comparative hack, and that the vast majority of what I've read in my life I now know to be utter crap. At bizarre moments throughout my day, I would find myself imagining what it would be like to be a guest at Morrolan's eternal party at Castle Black. I wanted a familiar on my shoulder too. I wanted Spellbreaker, and to have friends like Aliera to call upon. I fell completely in love with Cawti, so much did she embody the woman of my dreams, even more than Vlad himself!! In short, I had been effectively set up for the plummet to the deepest depths of despair and desolation that was Teckla. If only I'd learnt to be more suspicious like Vlad... Right now, with a couple of chapters left, Cawti is in the midst of the rebellion (read communist uprising) and has turned her back on Vlad. The slow death of their love twists a knife in me as it does Vlad and Cawti. I have to admit, I have had tears well up on several occasions today. I usually pride myself on being immune to tear-jerking manipulation, but this shoddy conman Brust has blown that away. How he could he fuck with their perfect match like that? How he could set them up through-out a whole book so blissfully to tear it all away. (Don't be a smart-ass and answer those questions by the way - I know I've been expertly manipulated - I just don't like it. And to top it all off, the only chance at saving what they have is to abandon his life as an assassin? I, for one, think Vlad to be in a fine and honourable profession, the only one he's known. Who the fuck is Cawti to force him from that, especially when she kept her role in the rebellion away from him? Fuck that shit. So I vainly kept waiting for Kelly to be exposed as a fraud, or for the peasants to get massacred by the Imperial Guard. But did Steven oblige? No, he brings Vlad's grandfather in as a supporter of these crack-pot rebels! So, I feel like I have been emotionally raped and I am now in desperate need of 'Taltos'. I might die if I don't get it soon. Like a dealer pushing hammer in a Kings-X alleyway, you've shamelessly got me hooked, knowing I'd be back for more. How do you sleep at nights? A... Attention: The information contained in this message and or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. From Bato001 at aol.com Sun Dec 5 15:00:05 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:00:05 EST Subject: Fwd: FW: you suck Message-ID: <1db.309563fd.2ee4ecf5@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041205/5777df7b/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bato001 at aol.com Subject: Re: FW: you suck Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 17:58:48 EST Size: 9724 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041205/5777df7b/attachment.mht From casey at the-bat.net Sun Dec 5 15:52:02 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:52:02 -0500 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD925@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> Message-ID: <00dc01c4db25$6b598bc0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Rafe writes; > bay whilst I sit here coding away. Anywho, this morning I > received this from a friend of mine that I recently loaned > the first few Vlad books to and thought I'd share with you > all. Take a trip down memory lane to the time when you first > happened to come across the blessed goodness that is Vlad and > his adventures... (heh, and you should also note the time the > email was sent). Oh dear. I have to say that with Vlad, you really should either lend the friend your whole set, or only lend one at a time. Teckla gets a lot of us down. It's not my favorite to read. Steve says, "I know there are many people who don't like it. Tough." I agree. It certainly succeeds in pouring out the emotions of a painful divorce. It's a bit raw, and there really isn't _that_ much done explicitly to build you up for it in the first two novels, but when it came out, yes, I was floored. There's a lot more to the story. Some of it hasn't come out yet. Tidbits have been poking out from behind the curtains here and there. Tell your friend to keep reading. Casey From rafehatfield at mcgrath.com.au Sun Dec 5 16:14:13 2004 From: rafehatfield at mcgrath.com.au (Rafe Hatfield) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:14:13 +1100 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD927@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> muhahahaha, classic salesmanship 101, the first few were free, the rest come at a cost.... nothing serious, his firstborn, a pound of flesh, a great weapon, whatever, i'm not fussy ;-) seriously, i TOLD him to take the whole set, he was all "oh no, i won't read that much in a week". oh ye of little faith... at least he appears to have seen the error of his misguided ways later, rafe -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at the-bat.net] Sent: Monday, 6 December 2004 10:52 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: you suck Rafe writes; > bay whilst I sit here coding away. Anywho, this morning I received > this from a friend of mine that I recently loaned the first few Vlad > books to and thought I'd share with you all. Take a trip down memory > lane to the time when you first happened to come across the blessed > goodness that is Vlad and his adventures... (heh, and you should also > note the time the email was sent). Oh dear. I have to say that with Vlad, you really should either lend the friend your whole set, or only lend one at a time. Teckla gets a lot of us down. It's not my favorite to read. Steve says, "I know there are many people who don't like it. Tough." I agree. It certainly succeeds in pouring out the emotions of a painful divorce. It's a bit raw, and there really isn't _that_ much done explicitly to build you up for it in the first two novels, but when it came out, yes, I was floored. There's a lot more to the story. Some of it hasn't come out yet. Tidbits have been poking out from behind the curtains here and there. Tell your friend to keep reading. Casey Attention: The information contained in this message and or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. From howard at brazee.net Sun Dec 5 17:49:52 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:49:52 -0700 Subject: FW: you suck In-Reply-To: <1db.309563fd.2ee4ecf5@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c4db35$e1cd6320$667ba8c0@Dad133> I don't read attached messages. Too dangerous. -----Original Message----- From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 4:00 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Fwd: FW: you suck From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Mon Dec 6 04:45:48 2004 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:45:48 -0700 Subject: FW: you suck Message-ID: Interesting... First two messages of the thread tripped the inbound profanity filter here at work... :) Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:50 PM To: Bato001 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: FW: you suck I don't read attached messages. Too dangerous. -----Original Message----- From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 4:00 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Fwd: FW: you suck ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Dec 6 08:20:41 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 08:20:41 -0800 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD925@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> Message-ID: <217801c4dbaf$87ae18b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Ah, to go back and re-live the "sovereign experience", as my son puts it. Tekla was a major downer. I suppose (it's certainly true for me) that many of us enjoy the adventures of Vlad and Co. because we imagine what it would be like to be in his shoes. It's a tough go of it when that puts you into story of heartbreak and loss, out of the blue as it were. I've found that Tekla grows "better" with time. If you've grown attached to the characters then the initial emotional impact tends to overshadow the actual story the first time through. The second time I read Tekla, I had a lot more appreciation for the trap that Vlad found himself in; trapped between his wife and The Organization. However, it was a good five years or more before I picked that book up again. At least your friend has the advantage of having the whole library to draw upon to blunt the trauma just a bit. *heh* From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 08:51:32 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:51:32 -0500 Subject: FW: you suck Message-ID: <57D8ECB0.0C0A50DA.00184D6D@aol.com> So true, so true. I can't wait for the next book to come out. I reread all the other ones (third time now) to hold my crave. -Crystal From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 08:52:48 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:52:48 -0500 Subject: FW: you suck Message-ID: <6F0320DE.524BDC70.00184D6D@aol.com> Welcome, btw. -Crystal From casey at the-bat.net Mon Dec 6 08:55:18 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:55:18 -0500 Subject: FW: you suck Message-ID: Scott Schultz writes: > At least your friend has the advantage of having > the whole library to draw upon to blunt the trauma > just a bit. *heh* Yeah. Back in the day, all I could do was reread Jhereg, Yendi or To Reign in Hell. (I wasn't enamored enough of Brokedown Palace to reread it at the time.) From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 08:56:59 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 11:56:59 -0500 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <3826174D.3F60F6EA.00184D6D@aol.com> I dreaded reading Teckla the second time I read it and I am glad I am done with it now. It is way too upsetting. Not that it's not a fantastic book, but as everyone said...It really gets to you! -Crystal From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 09:27:13 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:27:13 -0600 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: <217801c4dbaf$87ae18b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD925@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> <217801c4dbaf$87ae18b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 08:20:41 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > I've found that Tekla grows "better" with time. If you've grown attached to > the characters then the initial emotional impact tends to overshadow the > actual story the first time through. The second time I read Tekla, I had a > lot more appreciation for the trap that Vlad found himself in; trapped > between his wife and The Organization. However, it was a good five years or > more before I picked that book up again. This book is where I knew that I was hooked. Jhereg entertained me, Yendi intrigued me, but Teckla broke my heart. It went in a direction that no sane author would go (from a Marketing perspective). Here's how I have it in my head: Jhereg introduces the setting and the cast, Yendi is a love story as fairy tale, and Teckla is a love story as harsh reality. It is a much more mature book. If the love in Yendi is achieved in great part because of kind circumstance, we see the punishment of love in Teckla when circumstance takes a hard left turn. Love is still there, but the one thing they had in common becomes the one thing that divides them. This is not fair, but such is life. Who takes risks like that when you don't have to? This is not a "fun" book, but it is an important one, and there are moments of wonder, such as when (and how) Vlad's assassin finally shows himself, or "meeting" the ghost on the way to the thing (I'm being deliberately vague here). Vlad goes from being a clever character to being a real one (at least for me), and the ending was about as satisfying as one could hope for under the circumstances. Love remains, but it is irrevocably changed, as is Vlad. I haven't spoken of what occurs in the author's experience to generate such a radical shift in the direction of the general storyline but one presumes that it is the working out of catharsis. One hopes it was as successful as such things are capable of being. I mentioned that I recently re-read the entire first omnibus edition (I read the three novels in three days with NaNo2k4 roaring up upon me). I did not skip Teckla, and am better for it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 6 09:43:39 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 10:43:39 -0700 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: References: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD925@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> <217801c4dbaf$87ae18b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:27:13 -0600, Johne Cook wrote: > Jhereg entertained me, Yendi intrigued me, but Teckla broke my heart. > It went in a direction that no sane author would go (from a Marketing > perspective). I suspect we needed this book *before* Issola. Some aspects of Issola seem to pander to that in us that would have us running godlike characters in D&D. Except we already know that Steve is not ready to go there. He can't use Godslayer to solve his marital problems, for instance. But he can use it to stop being on the lam all the time. And he can use it to be part of the establishment that causes some of the conflict with his wife - but in a different way now. His existing conflicts won't be solved by this power - and I'm pretty sure the conflicts that are coming up won't be solved by it either. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 10:03:23 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:03:23 -0500 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <5B871775.4AB1F7F2.0015B39F@aol.com> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:27:13 -0600, Johne Cook > wrote: >> Jhereg entertained me, Yendi intrigued me, but Teckla broke my heart. >> It went in a direction that no sane author would go (from a Marketing >> perspective). >I suspect we needed this book *before* Issola. >Some aspects of Issola >seem to pander to that in us that would have us >running godlike characters >in D&D. Except we already know that Steve is >not ready to go there. He >can't use Godslayer to solve his marital >problems, for instance. >But he can use it to stop being on the lam all >the time. And he can use >it to be part of the establishment that causes >some of the conflict with >his wife - but in a different way now. >His existing conflicts won't be solved by this >power - and I'm pretty sure >the conflicts that are coming up won't be solved >by it either. Tekla is my absolute favorite, it's gritty, heart wrenching and reminds us that life can really suck. I believe it makes the good times in Jhereg and Yendi all the more sweet. It also spoke to me personally, as I had gone through a similiar situation myself and could sympathize. This is the book that made Vlad "real" to me. John D. Barbato, O.D. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Dec 6 10:44:17 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 13:44:17 -0500 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: References: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD925@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> <217801c4dbaf$87ae18b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20041206184417.GA13346@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 10:43:39AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > His existing conflicts won't be solved by this power [Godslayer] - and > I'm pretty sure the conflicts that are coming up won't be solved by > it either. Gads, I hope not. If they were, it wouldn't make for much of a conflict -- nor an interesting story, either. -- "I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." --Lily Tomlin From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 6 10:53:47 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:53:47 -0000 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: <5B871775.4AB1F7F2.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041206185244.HJHH3407.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> -----Original Message----- From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] Sent: 06 December 2004 18:03 To: Dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: you suck >Tekla is my absolute favorite, it's gritty, heart wrenching and reminds us that life can really suck. I believe it makes the good times in Jhereg and >Yendi all the more sweet. It also spoke to me personally, as I had gone through a similiar situation myself and could sympathize. This is the book that >made Vlad "real" to me. Teckla is brilliantly written, realistic and I REALLY dislike it. I have and will continue to occasionally reread it, but I really don't like it. Sure it's real, but if I wanted reality I wouldn't be reading fantasy. And yes I hate it because I can identify it very strongly. It speaks to me of the breakup of my first marriage. When I read it, I have to skip over the scenes between Vlad and Cawti. Mark From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Dec 6 11:12:13 2004 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:12:13 +0000 Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: <5B871775.4AB1F7F2.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: >>Tekla is my absolute favorite, it's gritty, heart wrenching and reminds us >>that life can really suck. I believe it makes the good times in Jhereg and >>Yendi all the more sweet. It also spoke to me personally, as I had gone >>through a similiar situation myself and could sympathize. This is the book >>that made Vlad >>"real" to me. But isn't that the point? Steve tries to, he has said, write the creature for which he titles the book. Yendi was intriguing, Dragon was war-like, and Teckla not only highlighted the trials of the supressed and exploited working class, but also *was* a trial--it shows us that sometimes, life can be like an onion. It can have different layers to it, and different textures, and that sometimes, like as we can see in the life of an easterner in Dragaera, or one of the teckla, that life/layer/texture really sucks, and there's nothing you can do about it. jon From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 11:15:04 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:15:04 -0500 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <0494C21A.03796AFC.0015B39F@aol.com> >>Tekla is my absolute favorite, it's gritty, heart wrenching and reminds us that life can really suck. I believe it makes the good times in Jhereg and >>Yendi all the more sweet. It also spoke to me personally, as I had gone through a similiar situation myself and could sympathize. This is the book that >>made Vlad "real" to me. >Teckla is brilliantly written, realistic and I >REALLY dislike it. I have >and will continue to occasionally reread it, but >I really don't like it. >Sure it's real, but if I wanted reality I >wouldn't be reading fantasy. And >yes I hate it because I can identify it very >strongly. It speaks to me of >the breakup of my first marriage. When I read >it, I have to skip over the >scenes between Vlad and Cawti. >Mark I understand. I cannot watch "Mystic River" again because it's just too depressing. For some reason I can reread books that are depressing and I love the way the gut twisting depression sweeps over me. Maybe it's because I can put the book down and introspect and be thankful for the joys in my own life. Maybe it's the comisery of another human being, even if they are fictional. Who knows, Teckla just seems to "fit" in the series and the series would be paler without it(IMHO). -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 11:18:53 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:18:53 -0500 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <3989D1DA.306E12F3.0015B39F@aol.com> >But isn't that the point? Steve tries to,he has >said, write the creature >for which he titles the book. Yendi was >intriguing, Dragon was war-like, >and Teckla not only highlighted the trials of the >supressed and exploited >working class, but also *was* a trial--it shows us >that sometimes, life can >be like an onion. It can have different layers to >it, and different >textures, and that sometimes, like as we can see >in the life of an easterner >in Dragaera, or one of the teckla, that >there's nothing you can do about it. >jon Yup. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 12:03:18 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:03:18 -0500 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <119F3435.0E54427B.0015B39F@aol.com> ><> >Sorry to hear that :o( >-Crystal Thank you. I survived and am better for it (things worked out anyway after a few years). I suspect that the same will happen for Vlad (or that he will die bitter and alone in a ditch somewhere with no freinds.)Either way it makes for good reading. Also don't forget that in order to write so poignant a story, Steve must have went through his own hell at some point. Maybe some sympathy for the subject of this list is in order. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Mon Dec 6 12:07:34 2004 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:07:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: you suck In-Reply-To: <119F3435.0E54427B.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041206200735.73003.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> > Also don't forget that in order to write so poignant > a story, Steve must have went through his own hell > at some point. Maybe some sympathy for the subject > of this list is in order. Your comments remind me of _Alexander_ (the new and not all that good movie). King Philip keeps telling the young Alexander that greatness only comes after undergoing much hardship and pain. Random but applicable I think... and I think that just sitting thru _Alexander_ filled my quota of greatness-bringing-pain for a few months... From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 12:10:37 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:10:37 -0500 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <35BEC6AA.36AD2F83.0015B39F@aol.com> >Your comments remind me of _Alexander_ (the new ?>and >not all that good movie). King Philip keeps telling >the young Alexander that greatness only comes >after >undergoing much hardship and pain. Random but >applicable I think... and I think that just >sitting >thru _Alexander_ filled my quota of >greatness-bringing-pain for a few months... Ha... had enough for a lifetime. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 6 12:31:00 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:31:00 -0700 Subject: You're nice In-Reply-To: <119F3435.0E54427B.0015B39F@aol.com> References: <119F3435.0E54427B.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:03:18 -0500, wrote: > Thank you. I survived and am better for it (things worked out anyway > after a few years). I suspect that the same will happen for Vlad (or > that he will die bitter and alone in a ditch somewhere with no > freinds.)Either way it makes for good reading. > Also don't forget that in order to write so poignant a story, Steve must > have went through his own hell at some point. Maybe some sympathy for > the subject of this list is in order. Either that or he's good enough of a writer to expand on personal experiences. It is quite possible that he has never really experienced revolution, assassination, and witchcraft as well. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 12:47:01 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:47:01 -0500 Subject: You're nice Message-ID: <2045AF9E.20599767.0015B39F@aol.com> >Either that or he's good enough of a writer to >expand on personal >experiences. It is quite possible that he has >never really experienced >revolution, assassination, and witchcraft as well. Ya think???? :) -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From rafehatfield at mcgrath.com.au Mon Dec 6 14:33:20 2004 From: rafehatfield at mcgrath.com.au (Rafe Hatfield) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:33:20 +1100 Subject: you suck Message-ID: <6BECE8BEFC1E104AA62B1A29423ED42DD930@esexchange2.mcgrath.au.com> well said! i agree entirely - it wasn't a buckle swashing story, but it was the point in the series where i realised the depth we were getting into. it was bleak and black at times, but i for one still thoroughly enjoyed it. I've always felt that one of the best things about Vlad was his realism, how easy it was to identify with him, and if anything Teckla really strengthened this for me - one of the best/worst things about life, we can all identify and commisserate so easily with a broken heart... later, rafe -----Original Message----- From: Johne Cook [mailto:johne.cook at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2004 4:27 AM Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: you suck On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 08:20:41 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > I've found that Tekla grows "better" with time. If you've grown > attached to the characters then the initial emotional impact tends to > overshadow the actual story the first time through. The second time I > read Tekla, I had a lot more appreciation for the trap that Vlad found > himself in; trapped between his wife and The Organization. However, it > was a good five years or more before I picked that book up again. This book is where I knew that I was hooked. Jhereg entertained me, Yendi intrigued me, but Teckla broke my heart. It went in a direction that no sane author would go (from a Marketing perspective). Here's how I have it in my head: Jhereg introduces the setting and the cast, Yendi is a love story as fairy tale, and Teckla is a love story as harsh reality. It is a much more mature book. If the love in Yendi is achieved in great part because of kind circumstance, we see the punishment of love in Teckla when circumstance takes a hard left turn. Love is still there, but the one thing they had in common becomes the one thing that divides them. This is not fair, but such is life. Who takes risks like that when you don't have to? This is not a "fun" book, but it is an important one, and there are moments of wonder, such as when (and how) Vlad's assassin finally shows himself, or "meeting" the ghost on the way to the thing (I'm being deliberately vague here). Vlad goes from being a clever character to being a real one (at least for me), and the ending was about as satisfying as one could hope for under the circumstances. Love remains, but it is irrevocably changed, as is Vlad. I haven't spoken of what occurs in the author's experience to generate such a radical shift in the direction of the general storyline but one presumes that it is the working out of catharsis. One hopes it was as successful as such things are capable of being. I mentioned that I recently re-read the entire first omnibus edition (I read the three novels in three days with NaNo2k4 roaring up upon me). I did not skip Teckla, and am better for it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Attention: The information contained in this message and or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Dec 6 15:43:07 2004 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:43:07 +0000 Subject: You're nice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: oh, I don't know about witchcraft....if he hasn't, he gets kudos for his research :) From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 6 16:32:18 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:32:18 +0000 Subject: You're nice Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Bato001 at aol.com To: howard at brazee.net ("Howard Brazee"), Dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: You're nice Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:47:01 -0500 >Either that or he's good enough of a writer to >expand on personal >experiences. It is quite possible that he has >never really experienced >revolution, assassination, and witchcraft as well. Ya think???? :) -- John D. Barbato, O.D. Heh. For all we know, he is in his basement printing up subversive literature as we speak. I would be, but I don't have a basement. From J.Millen-99 at student.lboro.ac.uk Mon Dec 6 16:47:58 2004 From: J.Millen-99 at student.lboro.ac.uk (Jim Millen) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 00:47:58 -0000 Subject: You're nice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c4dbf6$662699a0$6e01a8c0@jimsnotebook> > -----Original Message----- > From: jeff G. [mailto:log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > Sent: 07 December 2004 00:32 > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: You're nice > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Bato001 at aol.com > To: howard at brazee.net ("Howard Brazee"), Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: You're nice > Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 15:47:01 -0500 > > > >Either that or he's good enough of a writer to >expand on personal > >experiences. It is quite possible that he has >never > really experienced > >revolution, assassination, and witchcraft as well. > > Ya think???? :) > -- > John D. Barbato, O.D. > > Heh. For all we know, he is in his basement printing up subversive > literature as we speak. I would be, but I don't have a basement. Or indeed, he could be crafting a spell to overthrow a government by assassination! Three for the price of one, so to speak... With the current rise in this newfangled technology business, I would have thought basements were rather old hat in the subversive literature department. Surely the local copy shop would be a more attractive proposition? Cheers, Jim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26/11/2004 From rct9911 at comcast.net Mon Dec 6 18:27:01 2004 From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 20:27:01 -0600 Subject: you suck References: <0494C21A.03796AFC.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <004e01c4dc04$3cf0f220$6701a8c0@BOB> > I understand. I cannot watch "Mystic River" again because it's just too > depressing. For some reason I can reread books that are depressing and I > love the way the gut twisting depression sweeps over me. Maybe it's > because I can put the book down and introspect and be thankful for the > joys in my own life. Maybe it's the comisery of another human being, even > if they are fictional. Who knows, Teckla just seems to "fit" in the series > and the series would be paler without it(IMHO). > -- > John D. Barbato, O.D. > I felt that way when I read the _Farseer_ and _Tawny Man_ trilogies by Robin Hobb (who wrote _Gypsy_ with Steve as Megan Lindholm). Major depression, but it feels so good. Though I'm actually afraid to say it, I love those books even more than Dragaera. Robin Hobb is my hero. -Rebecca From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 19:07:32 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:07:32 EST Subject: you suck Message-ID: In a message dated 12/6/2004 9:27:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, rct9911 at comcast.net writes: > I understand. I cannot watch "Mystic River" again because it's just too > depressing. For some reason I can reread books that are depressing and I > love the way the gut twisting depression sweeps over me. Maybe it's > because I can put the book down and introspect and be thankful for the > joys in my own life. Maybe it's the comisery of another human being, even > if they are fictional. Who knows, Teckla just seems to "fit" in the series > and the series would be paler without it(IMHO). > -- > John D. Barbato, O.D. > I felt that way when I read the _Farseer_ and _Tawny Man_ trilogies by Robin Hobb (who wrote _Gypsy_ with Steve as Megan Lindholm). Major depression, but it feels so good. Though I'm actually afraid to say it, I love those books even more than Dragaera. Robin Hobb is my hero. -Rebecca Thanks, I knew I couldn't be the only one. John D. Barbato, OD PS: I like Robin Hobb too, just not as much as I like Steve's writing. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Dec 6 19:24:44 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 21:24:44 -0600 Subject: You're nice In-Reply-To: References: <119F3435.0E54427B.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <41B5227C.2020203@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: >> >> Also don't forget that in order to write so poignant a story, Steve >> must have went through his own hell at some point. Maybe some >> sympathy for the subject of this list is in order. > > > Either that or he's good enough of a writer to expand on personal > experiences. It is quite possible that he has never really > experienced revolution, assassination, and witchcraft as well. It is a matter of public record, IIRC, that Steve was going through his own divorce when he wrote Teckla. I seem to recall he said something like "It wasn't until I was reading the galleys that I realized I had been writing about me." Mia From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Dec 6 21:51:08 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 00:51:08 EST Subject: You're nice Message-ID: Rafe Hatfield on Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:48:53 +1100 posted an email he got >from A... Sent: Monday, 6 December 2004 2:36 AM A... wrote >No, he brings Vlad's grandfather in as a supporter of these >crack-pot rebels! Hi, Rafe, please tell your friend that at least one person does not think Vlad's grandfather is a supporter of the rebels in Teckla. Johne Cook wrote on Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:27:13 -0600 > or "meeting" the ghost on the way to the thing (I'm >being deliberately vague here). I have always thought things worked out the way they did with the ghost because deep down Vlad is worried that he will end up just like the ghost. J C wrote on Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:12:13 +0000 >Steve tries to, he has said, write the creature >for which he titles the book. Yendi was intriguing, Dragon was war-like, >and Teckla not only highlighted the trials of the supressed and exploited >working class, but also *was* a trial--it shows us that sometimes, life can >be like an onion. It can have different layers to it, and different >textures, and that sometimes, like as we can see in the life of an easterner >in Dragaera, or one of the teckla, that life/layer/texture really sucks, and >there's nothing you can do about it. "Frightened teckla hides in grass". Also Teckla dealt a lot with fear and being paralyzed by it. Instead of being a predator or a scavenger and preying on others, Vlad was helpless like prey--like a teckla. On Noish-pa and the rebels in Teckla: The Book of Jhereg, Teckla page 358 Chapter 4 'He sighed. "Vlad, Vlad, Vlad. It is silliness. If a revolution comes along, of course you support it. But to go out of your way like this is to put your head on the block."' The Book of Jhereg, Teckla page 434 Chapter 13 on the riots in two twenty-one: ' "Would you like to tell me about it?" He sighed and looked away for a moment. I guess he was thinking about my grandmother. I wished I'd met her. "Perhaps another time, Vladimir." "Sure. All right. I noticed that Kelly looked at you as if he recognized you. Was it from then?" "Yes. I knew him. He was young then. When we spoke of him before I didn't know it was the same Kelly." "Is he a good man, Noish-pa?" He glanced at me quickly. "Why this question?" "Because of Cawti, I suppose." "Hmmph. Well, yes, he is good, perhaps, if what he does you call good." I tried to decipher that, then came at it from another angle. "You didn't seem to think much of Cawti being involved with these people. Why is that, if you were involved in it yourself?" He spread his hands. "Vladimir, if there is an uprising against the landlords, then of course you want to help. What else can you do? But this is different. She is looking to make trouble where there is none. And it was never something that came between Ibronka--your grandmother-- and me." "It didn't?" "Of course not. That happened, and we were all a part of it. We had to be part of it or we would be with the counts and the landlords and the bankers. It was one or the other then, it was not a thing for which I abandoned my family." ' Hmmm, landlords and bankers...Good thing Vlad was around in Orca. Bye. Linda G. From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Tue Dec 7 07:12:27 2004 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 10:12:27 -0500 Subject: NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> The Sky Pirate I cannot stop reading this story. Very well done. Now you get to hear what every author dreads.... "When is the next book coming out?!" brian From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 09:10:34 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:10:34 -0600 Subject: (Tangent): NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 10:12:27 -0500, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > > The Sky Pirate > > I cannot stop reading this story. Very well done. > > Now you get to hear what every author dreads.... > > "When is the next book coming out?!" > > brian NaNo2k4 ended at Midnight a week ago. I finished up the odds and ends for the rough draft, posted links to what I had in .doc and .pdf form, and then sat back, waiting for the inevitable responses of "isn't that nice" or "well, at least you tried". Instead, there was a great silence which I have not known how to correctly interpret. I was afraid that it was so bad that people didn't want to bring it up, or worse, it was so pedestrian that people weren't able to get into it and simply didn't have the energy to even hate it. (It's weird, I'm more eager that people like this story (as amateurish and as hurried and as rough as it is) than I was that people liked how my kids looked when they were born. "Desperate" may be the more accurate word. It's pathetic how badly I want for people to enjoy this story, even though I had very humble expectations going in - 'finish on time', 'try not to suck'.) If you've made it as far as the rather long section on ten precepts for maintaining morale aboard ship, you have my hearty permission to skip ahead a bit. Most of that section was Captain Flynn chewing through exposition in a mad dash to get back on schedule after I'd gotten behind. It was the beginning of the dreaded second week, where the enthusiasm and momentum of the first week had burned off and I was left with the need for a solid five thousand word night to get back into the picture. That was the night that I first debated whether or not to quit, deciding instead to employ what is surely a popular NaNo trick. It's the only time I really resorted to that sort of desperation. Don't miss the last couple paragraphs of that chapter, though, as a creature that I wasn't prepared for popped up and went 'boo'! The cool thing was that I was casting about looking for a way to unify the crew and this character's introduction did in one brief encounter what the Captain couldn't do in page after page of fruitless rah-rah speechifying. He (and I) learned from that and never went there again (much to the relief of the reader, no doubt). In the week since I posted the story, I've had a chance to go back and re-view my copy of _Master & Commander, The Far Side of the World_. In doing so, I've discovered that I haven't peopled my ships with nearly enough men, and with nearly enough detail. I'm cringing just thinking about it. My hope is that people are able to get past these relatively major gaffes and find something in the characters and the plot that is compelling. If the basic foundation has room for traction, I might be able to take this somewhere and do something with it. The feedback that I'm getting (ok, both comments, lol), has been encouraging. I have a year until next NaNo - that should be enough time to horse this first book into more polished shape if I stick with it. The feedback received will ultimately help me to determine if it's worth the effort, or whether I should focus on another, better novel, or other, better short stories. I'm sorry - I am rambling badly in my giddiness over the slightest positive feedback. Gathering my wits, allow me to simply thank you ever so much for reading the draft and commenting on it. It means more to me than I quite know how to express at this moment. (Apologies to Steve and the list for the tangent. Re-read the Vladiad - I did.) Kind regards, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 7 09:27:04 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 12:27:04 -0500 Subject: pronounciation guide Message-ID: <4734C852.72D260D4.00184D6D@aol.com> I just came across this pronounciation guide (not that I don't have better things to do...I'd just rather not) and had so much fun just hear how Mr. Brust would pronounce things. I didn't do too badly with how I would pronounce some words(but then again I was supossed to be an English major [not spelling]). If some of you havn't seen it, here is the site: http://dragaera.info/encyclopedia/data/pg-test/ Enjoy! -Crystal p.s. And I must say, though I know recordings sound different than the acctual voice, damn his voice is hott! From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 13:21:56 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:21:56 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: In talking with Chris off to the side, something came up that's worth a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe line of swag? I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). With that concept in mind, Chris replied: "It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about that." My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? (Personally, I can see Paarfi burning in effigy being terrifically funny but somewhat problematic to explain, the perfect sort of irreverent, in-crowd wearable entertainment.) (I confess to having an ulterior motive at this point - somebody who's clever at graphic arts could mock up these ideas, get Steve's ok, then set them up on Cafe Press. We could buy them for ourselves and give them as gifts, and Steve would get any profits from the merch, thus making it easier to write and everybody goes home happy. Or something along those lines.) 8 ) Phy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 7 13:33:30 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:33:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? I'd buy something as long as it was reasonably subtle - say a blue Izod-style shirt with a stylized Tiassa on the breast? Or a t-shirt with the Cycle in black - a circle of animals in outline. Or perhaps an arc of the revolutions of a thrown dagger. From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 13:40:49 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:40:49 -0600 Subject: DC Weblog: teaching speculative fiction in schools In-Reply-To: References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: Don't know if you've seen it yet, but Steve has posted a relatively long reply up on his weblog answering a query about teaching speculative fiction in schools. Worth the read if you haven't seen it yet. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From fides at kludgeco.com Tue Dec 7 13:44:56 2004 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:44:56 +0000 Subject: Slightly OT Message-ID: <41B62458.20506@kludgeco.com> I hope people will forgive the off-topicness of this post. At the risk of bringing up a controversial subject I seem to recall that some people on this list have had contact with either fan fiction or (as the recent successes with NaNoWriMo) with amateur fiction that the authors make available online. I am currently doing a doctoral research project in Human-Computer Interaction at the University of Southampton (http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/). My supervisor is dr monica schraefel (http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mc/). [For those who want to check my credentials] I am looking for people willing to participate on an online survey designed to investigate how people find and access fan and amateur fiction on the Internet. I know that online communities are frequently the target of social science studies so I would like to make clear that this survey is part of a human-computer interaction project and the answers are intended to inform the design of applications to aid and support these communities as well as further research into usability and trustworthiness of the Web. The questionnaire is aimed at Internet users of all ages, whether they are part of the fan or amateur writing community or not. I would really love to hear from anyone who is either involved as a reader or writer, has stumbled upon fan or amateur fiction or who has a friend or relation who does such things as a hobby. All responses to the questions are confidential and anonymous and no personal data is requested. All data will be stored in accordance with the UK Data Protection Act. The questionnaire will take roughly fifteen to twenty minutes to complete (give or take a few minutes depending which sections are applicable to your situation). Please check it out. The URL is: http://interaction.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ir/projects/ontofic/survey/ If you have any questions about this project then please contact me (kf03r at ecs.soton.ac.uk) or contact the Fan Fiction Ontology Creation Project (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onto_fanfic/), a group made up of members of the fan fiction community who have expressed interest in the related work. Thanks Fides P.S. Please feel free to forward the URL above to anyone you know who might be interested. From moghan_david at yahoo.com Tue Dec 7 14:06:51 2004 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:06:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041207220651.89941.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> This sounds like a good idea to me. As long as Steve gives his blessing. Johne Cook wrote:In talking with Chris off to the side, something came up that's worth a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe line of swag? I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). With that concept in mind, Chris replied: "It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about that." My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? (Personally, I can see Paarfi burning in effigy being terrifically funny but somewhat problematic to explain, the perfect sort of irreverent, in-crowd wearable entertainment.) (I confess to having an ulterior motive at this point - somebody who's clever at graphic arts could mock up these ideas, get Steve's ok, then set them up on Cafe Press. We could buy them for ourselves and give them as gifts, and Steve would get any profits from the merch, thus making it easier to write and everybody goes home happy. Or something along those lines.) 8 ) Phy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Dec 7 14:23:11 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:23:11 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: <41B62D4F.20408@earthlink.net> Johne Cook wrote: >In talking with Chris off to the side, something came up that's worth >a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe >line of swag? > >I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have >to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In >the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth >conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, >did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come >nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). > >With that concept in mind, Chris replied: >"It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or >art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. >Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about >that." > >My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I >tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address >pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." > > I'd buy that. Also, re: your NaNo2K4 novel: I'd love to read it; it sounds pretty cool. Alas, I haven't the time. Maybe once the holidays start, but it's doubtful. I too tried my hand at NaNo2K4, but I failed miserably. I will nurse my wounds until next year's attempt. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 7 15:01:03 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:01:03 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <20041207220651.89941.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Opramolla" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:06 PM Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > This sounds like a good idea to me. As long as Steve gives his blessing. > > Johne Cook wrote:In talking with Chris off to the side, something came up that's worth > a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe > line of swag? > > I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have > to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In > the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth > conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, > did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come > nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). > > With that concept in mind, Chris replied: > "It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or > art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. > Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about > that." > > My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I > tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address > pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? (Personally, > I can see Paarfi burning in effigy being terrifically funny but > somewhat problematic to explain, the perfect sort of irreverent, > in-crowd wearable entertainment.) > > (I confess to having an ulterior motive at this point - somebody who's > clever at graphic arts could mock up these ideas, get Steve's ok, then > set them up on Cafe Press. We could buy them for ourselves and give > them as gifts, and Steve would get any profits from the merch, thus > making it easier to write and everybody goes home happy. Or something > along those lines.) 8 ) > > Phy > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > johne cook > wisconsin, usa > johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com > http://www.phywriter.com > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more I like the idea of the polo shirt with a small House emblem on the breast, very cool. Maybe a tee shirt that reads "No matter how subtle the wizard" on the front, "A knife in the back will cramp his style" written on the back, between the shoulderblades. (yeah, I abridged the quote, it was edited to fit) Got Morganti? is cool too. Maybe a Jehreg shirt that reads "Join House Jhereg. Travel the globe. Meet new and interesting people. And assasinate them." Jeff From carpovita at earthlink.net Tue Dec 7 15:42:28 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:42:28 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <20041207220651.89941.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c4dcb6$6aab8240$0400a8c0@attbi.com> ok dammit, now I have to have this Brust-ware in my closet and it does not yet even exist. Hey Steve can I cut my graphic designers and shirt printer loose on this for Opus 05? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff G." To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:01 PM Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Opramolla" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:06 PM > Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > > > This sounds like a good idea to me. As long as Steve gives his blessing. > > > > Johne Cook wrote:In talking with Chris off to the > side, something came up that's worth > > a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe > > line of swag? > > > > I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have > > to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In > > the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth > > conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, > > did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come > > nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). > > > > With that concept in mind, Chris replied: > > "It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or > > art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. > > Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about > > that." > > > > My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I > > tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address > > pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." > > > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? (Personally, > > I can see Paarfi burning in effigy being terrifically funny but > > somewhat problematic to explain, the perfect sort of irreverent, > > in-crowd wearable entertainment.) > > > > (I confess to having an ulterior motive at this point - somebody who's > > clever at graphic arts could mock up these ideas, get Steve's ok, then > > set them up on Cafe Press. We could buy them for ourselves and give > > them as gifts, and Steve would get any profits from the merch, thus > > making it easier to write and everybody goes home happy. Or something > > along those lines.) 8 ) > > > > Phy > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . > > johne cook > > wisconsin, usa > > johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com > > http://www.phywriter.com > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more > > I like the idea of the polo shirt with a small House emblem on the breast, > very cool. Maybe a tee shirt that reads "No matter how subtle the wizard" > on the front, "A knife in the back will cramp his style" written on the > back, between the shoulderblades. (yeah, I abridged the quote, it was edited > to fit) Got Morganti? is cool too. Maybe a Jehreg shirt that reads "Join > House Jhereg. Travel the globe. Meet new and interesting people. And > assasinate them." > > Jeff From mklahn at mac.com Tue Dec 7 15:52:43 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Tuesday, December 07, 2004, at 03:23PM, Johne Cook wrote: >My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I >tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address >pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." How about "team" jerseys (male & female shapes) for each house? Something like: "Adrilankha Jhereg" Fabric colors: medium grey body, black sleeves/highlights/lettering Front design: Words "Adrilankha Jhereg" over pic of a stylized jhereg Back design: Word "Taltos" (or "Kragar", or "Kiera" for women's) over large number "17"; url to dreamcafe under number in small print. Maybe add a "team motto" above url (like "We do *work* so you don't have to."). "Northport Orca" Fabric colors: sky blue body, green sleeves/highlights/lettering Front design: Words "Northport Orca" over pic of stylized orca Back design: Word "Fyres" (or "Vonnith" for women's) over large number "17"; url to dreamcafe under number in small print. "Southmoor Dragons" Fabric colors: black body, silver (or very light grey) sleeves/highlights/lettering Front design: Words "Southmoor Dragons" over pic of stylized dragon Back design: Words "Morrolan e'Drien" (or "Aliera e'Kieron" for women's) over a large number "17"; &c You don't even have to stick just to houses, you could just as easily come up with a "South Adrilankha Easterners" or "Fenarian Witches" or something. Anyhow, I'm sure that other people can come up with the clever mottos and overall just improve on this idea, but it seems like a natural kind of t-shirt idea to me. The #1 challenge, I think, is getting the art for the front. The rest is pretty easy, I think. Matthew From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Dec 7 16:12:47 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:12:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <200412080012.iB80CltN014133@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Matthew Klahn wrote: > How about "team" jerseys (male & female shapes) for each house? Hey, can we get some Universal jerseys with just "Drien" on them? (Sorry, not sure where that one came from.:) > (like "We do *work* so you don't have to."). Um, yes please! Damn that's a funny line. Love it. Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 16:19:23 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:19:23 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> References: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:52:43 -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: > How about "team" jerseys (male & female shapes) for each house? Something like: > > "Adrilankha Jhereg" I can see one of the Hickman covers with Vlad and Loiosh on the front and then some witty repartee on the back, ala "Can I eat him, Boss?" "Shut up, Loiosh." Also, I can easily see Steve's Cool Theory of Literature being delineated on a shirt. That would rock. Steve's given us no shortage of swaggable one-liners. The problem here isn't coming up with them, it's that they might become cult favorites, sweep the internet, become immortalized at boingboing.net, make Steve a sudden multimillionare, and jeopardize that fine line between 'author by a select niche group of discriminating taste' and 'instantly recognizable celebrity'. I guess there's only one way to find out. ; ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 7 16:24:59 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:24:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > Also, I can easily see Steve's Cool Theory of Literature being > delineated on a shirt. That would rock. I would have recommended that, but it's (I think) Gene Wolfe's Theory. From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 7 19:17:00 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:17:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <001b01c4dcb6$6aab8240$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20041208031700.86736.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> "Got klava?" -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 7 20:38:30 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:38:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: Another possibility - on one side a castle with a tree growing through it and on the other the quote: Sometimes at night it seemed to shimmer in the starlight. Sometimes it swayed in the wind. Sometimes it swayed in the stillness. - SKZB From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 7 21:37:14 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 23:37:14 -0600 Subject: (Tangent): NaNoWriMo In-Reply-To: (Johne Cook's message of "Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:10:34 -0600") References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: Johne Cook writes: > NaNo2k4 ended at Midnight a week ago. I finished up the odds and ends > for the rough draft, posted links to what I had in .doc and .pdf form, > and then sat back, waiting for the inevitable responses of "isn't that > nice" or "well, at least you tried". > > Instead, there was a great silence which I have not known how to > correctly interpret. I was afraid that it was so bad that people > didn't want to bring it up, or worse, it was so pedestrian that people > weren't able to get into it and simply didn't have the energy to even > hate it. > > (It's weird, I'm more eager that people like this story (as amateurish > and as hurried and as rough as it is) than I was that people liked how > my kids looked when they were born. "Desperate" may be the more > accurate word. It's pathetic how badly I want for people to enjoy > this story, even though I had very humble expectations going in - > 'finish on time', 'try not to suck'.) For me, it's in the queue behind a series reread I'm working through (Anthony Price) and an unpublished manuscript from a new sweetie. You're just going to have to wait :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 7 21:39:06 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 23:39:06 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: (Johne Cook's message of "Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:21:56 -0600") References: <20041207101227538.00000001736@Z7581> Message-ID: Johne Cook writes: > In talking with Chris off to the side, something came up that's worth > a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe > line of swag? > > I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have > to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In > the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth > conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, > did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come > nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). > > With that concept in mind, Chris replied: > "It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or > art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. > Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about > that." > > My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I > tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address > pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? (Personally, > I can see Paarfi burning in effigy being terrifically funny but > somewhat problematic to explain, the perfect sort of irreverent, > in-crowd wearable entertainment.) > > (I confess to having an ulterior motive at this point - somebody who's > clever at graphic arts could mock up these ideas, get Steve's ok, then > set them up on Cafe Press. We could buy them for ourselves and give > them as gifts, and Steve would get any profits from the merch, thus > making it easier to write and everybody goes home happy. Or something > along those lines.) 8 ) The little playing I've done with Cafe Press, I've gotten *very* little return from. It's fun designing stuff, though. And possibly the readers of this group might form a better core market than the other things I've tried. I'd think coffee mugs might be popular. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 7 21:47:52 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 05:47:52 +0000 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Dyer-Bennet To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Johne Cook writes: > In talking with Chris off to the side, something came up that's worth > a look - has anybody already considered a CafePress-style Dream Cafe > line of swag? > > I was bemoaning the phenomena where you create something and then have > to endure a waiting period before feedback starts to filter in. In > the meantime, you're on pins and needles because of the back-and-forth > conversation in your head ("did that suck? I don't think that sucked, > did it? Nah, that didn't suck. Well, if it didn't suck, how come > nobody's clapping? Damn. It sucked. Right?). > > With that concept in mind, Chris replied: > "It's also, I believe, a common occurence in writing, or > art in general. Part of the artistic process, or something. > Though knowing it doesn't make it easier. Bummer about > that." > > My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I > tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address > pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? (Personally, > I can see Paarfi burning in effigy being terrifically funny but > somewhat problematic to explain, the perfect sort of irreverent, > in-crowd wearable entertainment.) > > (I confess to having an ulterior motive at this point - somebody who's > clever at graphic arts could mock up these ideas, get Steve's ok, then > set them up on Cafe Press. We could buy them for ourselves and give > them as gifts, and Steve would get any profits from the merch, thus > making it easier to write and everybody goes home happy. Or something > along those lines.) 8 ) The little playing I've done with Cafe Press, I've gotten *very* little return from. It's fun designing stuff, though. And possibly the readers of this group might form a better core market than the other things I've tried. I'd think coffee mugs might be popular. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: You mean klava mugs, don't you? ;) Jeff G. From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 21:54:38 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:54:38 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 05:47:52 +0000, jeff G. wrote: > I'd think coffee mugs might be popular. > You mean klava mugs, don't you? ;) > > Jeff G. As long as they aren't glass. ; ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 7 23:59:26 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 01:59:26 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: (jeff G.'s message of "Wed, 08 Dec 2004 05:47:52 +0000") References: Message-ID: > > I'd think coffee mugs might be popular. > You mean klava mugs, don't you? ;) Whatever; some form of vile brown brew. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Dec 8 05:04:39 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:04:39 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: <20041208130439.GA21325@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 06:19:23PM -0600, Johne Cook wrote: > Steve's given us no shortage of swaggable one-liners. Looking thru my collection of .sigs, I find only one Brust. Today seems a good day to use it. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> From Bato001 at aol.com Wed Dec 8 05:37:37 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:37:37 EST Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: In a message dated 12/7/2004 6:53:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, mklahn at mac.com writes: Anyhow, I'm sure that other people can come up with the clever mottos and overall just improve on this idea, but it seems like a natural kind of t-shirt idea to me. The #1 challenge, I think, is getting the art for the front. The rest is pretty easy, I think. Matthew I beleive there are a few graphic artists that belong to the list. the *hard* part is getting Steve's approval. John D Barbato OD From paulw at videoideas.com Wed Dec 8 08:06:43 2004 From: paulw at videoideas.com (paul) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:06:43 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: Message-ID: <008001c4dd3f$e9a02040$6a01a8c0@Paul> I do graphics all day every day, and this thread gets me all buzzy just thinking about it... however, impressing all of you, AND Steven, that sounds a lot like a nightmare where you find yourself naked running through the street. Also, it could be MUCH more work than you imagine, especially when no one agrees on what something should be, and what is good art, and blah blah. Still, I really want a T-shirt for my wife that says "Bitch Patrol". Guess I'll need to make a fan of her first. -paul- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:37 AM Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > In a message dated 12/7/2004 6:53:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mklahn at mac.com writes: > > Anyhow, I'm sure that other people can come up with the clever mottos and > overall just improve on this idea, but it seems like a natural kind of t-shirt > idea to me. The #1 challenge, I think, is getting the art for the front. The > rest is pretty easy, I think. > > Matthew > > > > I beleive there are a few graphic artists that belong to the list. the > *hard* part is getting Steve's approval. > > John D Barbato OD > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 8 09:00:13 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:00:13 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <01B21A1A.357E5633.00184D6D@aol.com> <> I second this idea. If you can't find someone you prefer, I'd be happy to (attempt) draw the images....and of course everyone can approve (especially Mr. Brust). If this idea doesn't work I would wear whatever is sold. I just think Mr. Brust will need a bigger hat (and hats should be sold too)! -Crystal From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 8 09:23:26 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:23:26 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <008001c4dd3f$e9a02040$6a01a8c0@Paul> References: <008001c4dd3f$e9a02040$6a01a8c0@Paul> Message-ID: <41B7388E.6060800@earthlink.net> paul wrote: >I do graphics all day every day, and this thread gets me all buzzy just >thinking about it... however, impressing all of you, AND Steven, that sounds >a lot like a nightmare where you find yourself naked running through the >street. Also, it could be MUCH more work than you imagine, especially when >no one agrees on what something should be, and what is good art, and blah >blah. Still, I really want a T-shirt for my wife that says "Bitch Patrol". >Guess I'll need to make a fan of her first. > Bitch Patrol would be awesome. I also really like Got Klava? and the No Matter How Subtle the Wizard front/back idea. Oooh, and the jerseys; I like those, too. I guess I'm a consumer whore. (Mildly ironic, since I can't find regular employment) Jose, abusing his second language for the day. Once he gets to his temp job, he'll abuse his third. -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Dec 8 12:28:20 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:28:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? (The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) > I'd buy something as long as it was reasonably subtle - Required for me too. ... > Or a t-shirt with the Cycle in black - a circle of animals in outline. ... That one could actually tempt me to part with some easy-earned simoleons. Not a white background, though. In fact, maybe a black background (or is that what you meant?) with the art in the sort of gold color that Loiosh (or whoever) appears in on covers. (Four colors would be better, but...) I seldom buy shirts with words, but I have to say that "Bitch Patrol" could easily be a hot seller. Not that I know anything about marketing. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Dec 8 12:16:33 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:16:33 -0500 Subject: swag In-Reply-To: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <41B71AD1.12766.14D742C@localhost> On 8 Dec 2004 at 12:28, Jerry Friedman wrote > I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? > (The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) > I don't know if it's fannish - I've always known it to be another word for "stuff" or "gifts". As in, "Did you get much swag for Christmas?" The American Heritage Dictionary has some interesting usages: NOUN: 1a. An ornamental drapery or curtain draped in a curve between two points. b. An ornamental festoon of flowers or fruit. c. A carving or plaster molding of such an ornament. 2. Slang Stolen property; loot. 3. Australian The pack or bundle containing the personal belongings of a swagman. 4. Slang Herbal tea in a plastic sandwich bag sold as marijuana to an unsuspecting customer. INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: swagged, swag?ging, swags 1. Chiefly British To lurch or sway. 2. Australian To travel about with a pack or swag. ETYMOLOGY: Probably of Scandinavian origin. Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From mklahn at mac.com Wed Dec 8 12:39:19 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:39:19 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6260265.1102538359544.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Wednesday, December 08, 2004, at 02:29PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: .stanford.edu> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: >> >> > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? > >I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? >(The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) >From urbandictionary.com: ========================= 1. swag Promotional merchandise for a band, record label, or other entity in the music business, usually distributed at concerts. May include t-shirts, stickers, promo CDs, posters, etc. Often free, but not necessarily; a t-shirt or record purchased at a concert might still be considered swag, especially if it is a design or release that is not readily available in the mass market. Many independent record labels throw in a handful of free swag when they ship out mail-order packages (stickers, sampler CDs, etc). The chief difference between swag and regular merchandise is that its purpose is not to make a profit, but to promote the band/label, and reward its supporters by giving them something cool and unique. I picked up some great swag at the concert last night. ========================== For all entries: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=swag&r=f Someone below attributes this term to an acronym "Stuff We All Get", but I don't think that's accurate. Actually, I think that it is an older term meaning "stolen goods" as in this entry at dict.org: =========================== >From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) : Swag \Swag\, n. 1. A swaying, irregular motion. 2. A burglar's or thief's booty; boodle. [Cant or Slang] --Charles Reade. ============================ Usage of the term as first defined above has been expanded by the online community to include websites. Tongue-in-Cheek Disclaimer: I'm not a search engine, nor do I play one on TV. Usage of resources like urbandictionary.com, dict.org and google.com is highly recommended to everyone. Matthew Klahn From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Dec 8 12:40:33 2004 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:40:33 -0700 Subject: swag Message-ID: Number 2 is the one I was always familiar with. British cartoons involving thieves would have their bags of loot labelled Swag. We sometimes used the term to cover freebies from trade shows and convention tables... Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Michele Riccio [mailto:mr1 at rcosta.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:17 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: swag On 8 Dec 2004 at 12:28, Jerry Friedman wrote > I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? > (The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) > I don't know if it's fannish - I've always known it to be another word for "stuff" or "gifts". As in, "Did you get much swag for Christmas?" The American Heritage Dictionary has some interesting usages: NOUN: 1a. An ornamental drapery or curtain draped in a curve between two points. b. An ornamental festoon of flowers or fruit. c. A carving or plaster molding of such an ornament. 2. Slang Stolen property; loot. 3. Australian The pack or bundle containing the personal belongings of a swagman. 4. Slang Herbal tea in a plastic sandwich bag sold as marijuana to an unsuspecting customer. INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: swagged, swag*ging, swags 1. Chiefly British To lurch or sway. 2. Australian To travel about with a pack or swag. ETYMOLOGY: Probably of Scandinavian origin. Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 12:40:48 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:40:48 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:28:20 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > > > > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? > > I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? > (The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) The Wikipedia comes to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotional_item "A promotional item is merchandise given away free of charge to the public in an effort to promote a business or increase interest or sales in products. In Silicon Valley these items are called schwag. Promotional items also are used in politics to promote candidates and causes. Examples of promotional items include corporate/organizational logo branded t-shirts, caps, keychains, bumper stickers and pins." When I used the word initially, I was going for the the vibe of "cool, theme-oriented stuff that would serve the purpose of amusing fans and promoting SKZBs books", cool Brustian schwag. : ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 8 13:09:38 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:09:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041208202820.29375.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Philip Hart wrote: > ... > > Or a t-shirt with the Cycle in black - a circle of animals in outline. > ... > > That one could actually tempt me to part with some easy-earned > simoleons. Not a white background, though. In fact, maybe a > black background (or is that what you meant?) with the art in > the sort of gold color that Loiosh (or whoever) appears in on > covers. Left vague cause I don't know how to make it work - but a white t-shirt would be too plain - maybe a heavy gray t or a sweatshirt. I have a long-sleeved t from the Alvin Ailey dance company - red design on black - that might work. Anyway, mostly wanted to additionally suggest that the Cycle be drawn in one unbroken line if that's possible. Also, perhaps a helix would better fill out the back of a shirt and would be a different way of indicating time, perhaps with irregular spacing (and "Min delta t = 17**2 years, max delta t = 17**3" could be noted.) From shannon3d at yahoo.com Wed Dec 8 14:09:52 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041208220952.73628.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> An aside: My gaming merchandizer husband tells me that in the promotional sense, swag is actually an acronym. It's short for (S)hit (W)e (A)ll (G)et. It took a moment for me to adjust to the idea of swag as something I would actually pay for. We're awash in promotional swag at my house. Anyone want a Playstation pen? How about a box of them? Johne Cook wrote: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:28:20 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > > > > > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? > > I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? > (The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) The Wikipedia comes to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotional_item "A promotional item is merchandise given away free of charge to the public in an effort to promote a business or increase interest or sales in products. In Silicon Valley these items are called schwag. Promotional items also are used in politics to promote candidates and causes. Examples of promotional items include corporate/organizational logo branded t-shirts, caps, keychains, bumper stickers and pins." When I used the word initially, I was going for the the vibe of "cool, theme-oriented stuff that would serve the purpose of amusing fans and promoting SKZBs books", cool Brustian schwag. : ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 14:17:47 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:17:47 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208220952.73628.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041208220952.73628.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:09:52 -0800 (PST), Shannon Wimberly wrote: > > An aside: My gaming merchandizer husband tells me that in the promotional > sense, swag is actually an acronym. It's short for (S)hit (W)e (A)ll (G)et. > It took a moment for me to adjust to the idea of swag as something I would > actually pay for. We're awash in promotional swag at my house. Anyone want > a Playstation pen? How about a box of them? Wikipedia comments on that theory in this way: "Some people suggest that it is an acronym for shit we all get, but this is not supported by the fact it is very often spelled schwag or shwag; more likely derived from swag in the sense of stolen or scavenged loot as above." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From shannon3d at yahoo.com Wed Dec 8 15:08:09 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> While I respect wikipedia's opinion in this matter, it's entirely possible that the word (like most slang) has more than one origination. Given that promotional merchandise is not at all stollen or looted property but instead is often useless and overwhelming crap that after consideration you don't really want, I'm sticking to the definition provided by the industry pushers that have taken over my garage, my porch and my guest room. Yes, I'm annoyed about it and have gone far down a tunnel that was at best only tangentially related to the subject. That said, how deeply are we willing to explore the Vlad merchandise realm? I'm thinking that my server room needs a jhereg guard to assist the switch-blade bearing bunny that already resides there. I can also imagine a black t-shirt, an outline of Dzur Mountain on the back with a teaser Sethra quote "Do you know the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer?" or "Dead isn't as simple and straightforward as you think." Johne Cook wrote: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:09:52 -0800 (PST), Shannon Wimberly wrote: > > An aside: My gaming merchandizer husband tells me that in the promotional > sense, swag is actually an acronym. It's short for (S)hit (W)e (A)ll (G)et. > It took a moment for me to adjust to the idea of swag as something I would > actually pay for. We're awash in promotional swag at my house. Anyone want > a Playstation pen? How about a box of them? Wikipedia comments on that theory in this way: "Some people suggest that it is an acronym for shit we all get, but this is not supported by the fact it is very often spelled schwag or shwag; more likely derived from swag in the sense of stolen or scavenged loot as above." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Dec 8 15:24:48 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:24:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <6260265.1102538359544.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: <20041208232448.5425.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matthew Klahn wrote: > On Wednesday, December 08, 2004, at 02:29PM, Jerry Friedman > wrote: > .stanford.edu> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > >> > >> > And there you have it. What swag would you like to see? > > > >I'm not familiar with this use of "swag". Is it a fan thing? > >(The Internet is my only contact with fandom.) ... I thank you and everyone else who helped me here. > Tongue-in-Cheek Disclaimer: I'm not a search engine, nor do I play one > on TV. Usage of resources like urbandictionary.com, dict.org and > google.com is highly recommended to everyone. I wouldn't have thought to look at urbandictionary.com, which I think of as a source for gangster and faux-gangster slang--but obviously there's more there. In a nutshell, the reason I asked instead of searching is that I was guessing it was limited to a pretty small group, whose Web presence I don't know my way around, and thus would be hard for me to find. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Dec 8 15:34:00 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:34:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <200412082334.iB8NY0tN026653@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Jerry Friedman wrote: > In a nutshell, the reason I asked > instead of searching is that I was guessing it was limited to a > pretty small group, whose Web presence I don't know my way > around, and thus would be hard for me to find. Really? Myself, I'm just lazy. "I don't do active research, I do passive research--where the research comes to you." ~Eddie Izzard Heh. :) Chris (Who isn't quite *that* lazy, but is still practicing) From mklahn at mac.com Wed Dec 8 15:52:20 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:52:20 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Wednesday, December 08, 2004, at 05:09PM, Shannon Wimberly wrote: >While I respect wikipedia's opinion in this matter, it's entirely possible that the word (like most slang) has more than one origination. While this is entirely true, I humbly assert that if the word origin is sufficiently fulfilled by the previously given definition and alternate spellings ("schwag", "shwag") break the acronym, it's more likely that the older definition is a more accurate etymology. > Given that promotional merchandise is not at all stollen or looted property but instead is often useless and overwhelming crap that after consideration you don't really want, I'm sticking to the definition provided by the industry pushers that have taken over my garage, my porch and my guest room. While not stolen in the strictest sense of the word, haven't you ever referred to the pile of christmas/birthday gifts you've gotten as "loot"? I think it's fairly common to refer to gifts/free crap that you pick up as "loot", which is easily transmuted to "swag"/"schwag"/"shwag". Ehn. It don't matter either way. Now, about those Playstation pens... ;) Matthew Klahn From mklahn at mac.com Wed Dec 8 15:58:46 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:58:46 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208232448.5425.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041208232448.5425.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9730691.1102550326394.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Wednesday, December 08, 2004, at 05:24PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >--- Matthew Klahn wrote: > >> Tongue-in-Cheek Disclaimer: I'm not a search engine, nor do I play one >> on TV. Usage of resources like urbandictionary.com, dict.org and >> google.com is highly recommended to everyone. > >I wouldn't have thought to look at urbandictionary.com, which I >think of as a source for gangster and faux-gangster slang--but >obviously there's more there. In a nutshell, the reason I asked >instead of searching is that I was guessing it was limited to a >pretty small group, whose Web presence I don't know my way >around, and thus would be hard for me to find. No problem. I didn't mean anything by what I said; just feeling snarky, I guess. urbandictionary is actually quite a nice little resource, much like wikipedia (which, I'll admit, I didn't even think of consulting). While a lot of definitions are quite useless, the good ones usually float to the top, and at least give you an idea of what a term means. It does lack nuance and efficiency, though; you might have to read 10-12 entries to get a real idea of what a term means. I think that at some point, editors could come through and collapse a bunch of the entries for a particular term into a single, efficient entry. Matthew Klahn From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Dec 8 16:03:20 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 16:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <200412090003.iB903KtN029513@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Matthew Klahn wrote: > urbandictionary is actually quite a nice little resource, much like wikipedia (which, I'll admit, I didn't even think of consulting). I'd never heard of this one before today, and had the chance to use it, too. Wikipedia didn't have an entry for the slang word "janked", but urbandictionary did. Great, another resource to add to my bookmarks. Heh. Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 15:55:42 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:55:42 -0600 Subject: OT: We write good! Message-ID: <41B7947E.6050902@comcast.net> Fame, or something that might pass for it, has touched our little household. In the Wall Street Journal tomorrow, Thursday the 9th, we will appear in a column by Jeff Zaslow. He will be discussing Christmas letters--he got hold of a couple of ours, and he thought they were cool. Other families will also be featured. So, run right out and spike their circulation! (I checked; you can't see their columnists online unless you have an online subscription.) Or, at least check it out at the library. If you want to see the letters themselves, I humbly venture to point you to http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid/life/fam2003.html Cheers! Mia From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 15:58:52 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:58:52 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> References: <8067964.1102463563115.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: <41B7953C.5070209@comcast.net> Just don't make it out of sleazy nylon, like those bowling shirts! Matthew Klahn wrote: > >On Tuesday, December 07, 2004, at 03:23PM, Johne Cook wrote: > > > >>My (flip) answer to that was along the lines of "It's a conspiracy, I >>tell you. We need our own shirt: "Got Morganti?" with a url address >>pointing to The Dream Cafe or something." >> >> > >How about "team" jerseys (male & female shapes) for each house? Something like: > >"Adrilankha Jhereg" >Fabric colors: medium grey body, black sleeves/highlights/lettering >Front design: Words "Adrilankha Jhereg" over pic of a stylized jhereg >Back design: Word "Taltos" (or "Kragar", or "Kiera" for women's) over large number "17"; url to dreamcafe under number in small print. Maybe add a "team motto" above url (like "We do *work* so you don't have to."). > >"Northport Orca" >Fabric colors: sky blue body, green sleeves/highlights/lettering >Front design: Words "Northport Orca" over pic of stylized orca >Back design: Word "Fyres" (or "Vonnith" for women's) over large number "17"; url to dreamcafe under number in small print. > >"Southmoor Dragons" >Fabric colors: black body, silver (or very light grey) sleeves/highlights/lettering >Front design: Words "Southmoor Dragons" over pic of stylized dragon >Back design: Words "Morrolan e'Drien" (or "Aliera e'Kieron" for women's) over a large number "17"; &c > >You don't even have to stick just to houses, you could just as easily come up with a "South Adrilankha Easterners" or "Fenarian Witches" or something. > >Anyhow, I'm sure that other people can come up with the clever mottos and overall just improve on this idea, but it seems like a natural kind of t-shirt idea to me. The #1 challenge, I think, is getting the art for the front. The rest is pretty easy, I think. > >Matthew > > > From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 16:06:18 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:06:18 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <01B21A1A.357E5633.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <01B21A1A.357E5633.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41B796FA.1050506@comcast.net> Kathy Marsh (new last name here) has already done some very cool art--I remember Orca, Tiassa, Dzur . . . Could we invite her to play, for an appropriate amount of the cut? Steve, you know that all these remarks are really addressed to you. It's your characters; nobody can touch them without your permission. Some of us just think it would be Really Cool. Mia From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Dec 8 11:56:44 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> References: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> If this involves me getting money without doing any work, I'm all for it, of course. Especially today, since the IRS has just seized my bank account. (Not to worry; there wasn't much in it anyway). However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole thing. From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Dec 8 17:08:18 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:08:18 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <012801c4dd8b$928b1e80$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Yes perhaps, but your world, your characters, and your wit... These are yours and yours alone, and these are what we want to share with the world. Rion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Matthew Klahn" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:56 PM Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > If this involves me getting money without doing any work, I'm all for > it, of course. Especially today, since the IRS has just seized my bank > account. (Not to worry; there wasn't much in it anyway). > > However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is > something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole > thing. > > > From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 17:08:29 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:08:29 -0600 Subject: OT: We write good! In-Reply-To: <41B7947E.6050902@comcast.net> References: <41B7947E.6050902@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:55:42 -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > > Fame, or something that might pass for it, has touched our little > household. In the Wall Street Journal tomorrow, Thursday the 9th, we > will appear in a column by Jeff Zaslow. He will be discussing Christmas > letters--he got hold of a couple of ours, and he thought they were > cool. Other families will also be featured. Hey, that's great! Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out. Congratulations! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 8 17:12:05 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:12:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> References: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Steve Brust wrote: > If this involves me getting money without doing any work, I'm all for > it, of course. Not having gotten arrested recently, I wonder if say bank robbers get either one phone call or one email these days. From shannon3d at yahoo.com Wed Dec 8 18:06:41 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:06:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: <20041209020641.98173.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> Nope, never referred to presents as loot. Nu-uh, not me. Sticking to my definition of swag because that's the one I like. Of course this may just be a bit of bizarre ramblings on my part do to the pain killers I'm on after having my wisdom teeth pulled. Vicodin = Good. Matthew Klahn wrote: On Wednesday, December 08, 2004, at 05:09PM, Shannon Wimberly wrote: >While I respect wikipedia's opinion in this matter, it's entirely possible that the word (like most slang) has more than one origination. While this is entirely true, I humbly assert that if the word origin is sufficiently fulfilled by the previously given definition and alternate spellings ("schwag", "shwag") break the acronym, it's more likely that the older definition is a more accurate etymology. > Given that promotional merchandise is not at all stollen or looted property but instead is often useless and overwhelming crap that after consideration you don't really want, I'm sticking to the definition provided by the industry pushers that have taken over my garage, my porch and my guest room. While not stolen in the strictest sense of the word, haven't you ever referred to the pile of christmas/birthday gifts you've gotten as "loot"? I think it's fairly common to refer to gifts/free crap that you pick up as "loot", which is easily transmuted to "swag"/"schwag"/"shwag". Ehn. It don't matter either way. Now, about those Playstation pens... ;) Matthew Klahn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Dec 8 18:09:22 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:09:22 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041209020641.98173.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041209020641.98173.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57A86BCA-4987-11D9-B5F3-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Dec 8, 2004, at 9:06 PM, Shannon Wimberly wrote: > Of course this may just be a bit of bizarre ramblings on my part do to > the pain killers I'm on after having my wisdom teeth pulled. Vicodin = > Good. Oh my! I had the same thing done six months ago and Vicodin is awesome. I can see why people get addicted to the stuff....ooo la la! From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 8 18:18:47 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:18:47 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <01B21A1A.357E5633.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c4dd95$6ae40310$667ba8c0@Dad133> My wife has a great looking brown shirt with a small crest and the word Vorsogen (SIC?) on it. Only someone who reads Bujold would have any idea what that meant - others might assume that's the name of a designer. This type of minimalist design needs to be a good looking (designer-look) shirt. From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 8 18:24:03 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:24:03 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c4dd96$2770e700$667ba8c0@Dad133> Shannon Wimberly wrote: >> An aside: My gaming merchandizer husband tells me that in the >> promotional sense, swag is actually an acronym. It's short for >> (S)hit (W)e (A)ll (G)et. It took a moment for me to adjust to the >> idea of swag as something I would actually pay for. We're awash in >> promotional swag at my house. Anyone want a Playstation pen? How >> about a box of them? Old words often acquire acronymous definitions (For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge). IBM turned the word spool (as in spooling a print job) into an acronym. But entomologists disagree with these. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Dec 8 18:31:21 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:31:21 +0100 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <000a01c4dd96$2770e700$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: >From: Howard Brazee > But entomologists disagree with these. Well, they're bugged. ;) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 18:21:17 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:21:17 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> References: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Steve Brust wrote: >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole >thing. > > Well, we don't have to call it Dream Cafe Swag, then. We can call it Jhereg's Loot, or something. *That* part's easy. Mia From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 8 18:35:34 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:35:34 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c4dd97$c3402e60$667ba8c0@Dad133> Martin Wohlert wrote: >> From: Howard Brazee >> But entomologists disagree with these. > > Well, they're bugged. ;) That's the 2nd time I have made that mistake. Stupid spell-checker isn't any smarter than I am. > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's > FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From frank at exit.com Wed Dec 8 18:47:32 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <000901c4dd95$6ae40310$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <200412090247.iB92lXPY001578@realtime.exit.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > My wife has a great looking brown shirt with a small crest and the word > Vorsogen (SIC?) on it. Only someone who reads Bujold would have any idea > what that meant - others might assume that's the name of a designer. I really do hope it's "Vorkosigan," not "Vorsogen." (Unfortunately I'm not much for fannish stuff. Although a black-and-gray shirt or T-shirt with something flying-lizardy on it somewhere wouldn't be out of the question.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 8 19:36:57 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:36:57 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <200412090247.iB92lXPY001578@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <000001c4dda0$56941e30$667ba8c0@Dad133> Frank Mayhar wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: >> My wife has a great looking brown shirt with a small crest and the >> word Vorsogen (SIC?) on it. Only someone who reads Bujold would >> have any idea what that meant - others might assume that's the name >> of a designer. > > I really do hope it's "Vorkosigan," not "Vorsogen." That's right. This morning I had two stents put in and my cardiologist tried to clear up another blockage. I was not about to walk across the room to check on the spelling. And my spell-checker isn't much help. > (Unfortunately I'm not much for fannish stuff. Although a > black-and-gray shirt or T-shirt with something flying-lizardy on it > somewhere wouldn't be out of the question.) My point is that it would be nice to have one option that isn't obvious. A subtle reference in a good looking shirt would be attractive to me. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 8 20:07:11 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 04:07:11 +0000 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Mia McDavid To: "dragaera at dragaera.info" Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:21:17 -0600 Steve Brust wrote: >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole >thing. > > Well, we don't have to call it Dream Cafe Swag, then. We can call it Jhereg's Loot, or something. *That* part's easy. Mia The Jhereg Treasury, perhaps? And I like the death quote quite a bit actually. Jeff G. From frank at exit.com Wed Dec 8 20:54:29 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 20:54:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <000001c4dda0$56941e30$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <200412090454.iB94sT23047328@realtime.exit.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > Frank Mayhar wrote: > > "Vorkosigan," not "Vorsogen." > That's right. This morning I had two stents put in and my cardiologist > tried to clear up another blockage. I was not about to walk across the > room to check on the spelling. And my spell-checker isn't much help. Oy. Yes, you made the right decision. The spelling of the name of a fictional character is not worth risking one's life over. :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Dec 8 21:01:34 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 00:01:34 EST Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: Steve Brust wrote on Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 >Especially today, since the IRS has just seized my bank >account. (Not to worry; there wasn't much in it anyway). Hi, The words "not to worry" do not belong in the same paragraph as the word IRS. If I am really "not to worry", more explanation about why "not to worry" would be necessary. I am still worried about your eye infection. I cannot even put contacts in my eyes. Could you have lost sight in one eye or even both? Also, it isn't very far from the eye to the brain. I think there is some sort of direct connection or maybe it is an upside-down connection. Bye. Linda G. From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 21:15:20 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:15:20 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: This sounds like a "yes" to me. Anybody else hear a "yes" there? 8 ) The idea is to provide a small printed link that people could see and use as a reference to find the books online, thus generating the possibility for more sales and word-of-mouth. If www.dreamcafe.com is Steve's and the link attributes back to Greg Brown for the genesis of the idea, that should be kosher enough, right? David, how does Cafe Press work in practice? I see the blurb on their site, http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/about/: "Launched in 1999, CafePress.com has empowered individuals, organizations and businesses to create, buy and sell customized merchandise online using the company's unique print-on-demand and ecommerce services. Today, CafePress.com is a growing network of nearly 2 million members who have unleashed their creativity to transform their artwork and ideas into unique gifts and new revenue streams. Our members have created over 6 million original designs on more than 70 customizable products ranging from apparel, home and office accessories to music and data CDs and books to prints, posters and cards. Powering independently-run shops as well as syndicated and corporate stores, we manage every aspect of doing business online, including storefront development, site hosting, order management, fulfillment, secure payment processing, and quality customer service - enabling anyone to open a free shop with no upfront costs and no inventory to manage. CafePress.com is a privately owned, profitable company based in San Leandro, California." "No upfront costs and no inventory to manage" sounds pretty good to me. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From books at bofh.com Wed Dec 8 21:50:35 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:50:35 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> References: <20041208230809.31549.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> <7705354.1102549940028.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> <1102535804.2366.765.camel@localhost> <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20041209055035.GA13845@bofh.com> On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 08:21:17PM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > Steve Brust wrote: > > >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is > >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole > >thing. > > Well, we don't have to call it Dream Cafe Swag, then. We can call it > Jhereg's Loot, or something. *That* part's easy. I vote for Jhereg Droppings (ala Armadillo Droppings from http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/Paraphernalia) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Wed Dec 8 21:52:15 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:52:15 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <57A86BCA-4987-11D9-B5F3-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> References: <20041209020641.98173.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> <57A86BCA-4987-11D9-B5F3-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20041209055215.GB13845@bofh.com> On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 09:09:22PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Dec 8, 2004, at 9:06 PM, Shannon Wimberly wrote: > > >Of course this may just be a bit of bizarre ramblings on my part do to > >the pain killers I'm on after having my wisdom teeth pulled. Vicodin = > >Good. > > Oh my! I had the same thing done six months ago and Vicodin is awesome. > I can see why people get addicted to the stuff....ooo la la! Underachievers. Percocet. One step removed from opium (literally). Makes vicodin look like tic-tacs. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From frank at exit.com Wed Dec 8 21:37:05 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:37:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200412090537.iB95b53v048024@realtime.exit.com> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > I am still worried about your eye infection. I cannot even > put contacts in my eyes. Could you have lost sight in one > eye or even both? Also, it isn't very far from the eye to > the brain. I think there is some sort of direct connection > or maybe it is an upside-down connection. It is a direct connection. In fact, the retina can be thought of in a way as a tiny bit of the brain that's actually in the eye. The interesting thing is that there's actually processing going on _in the retina_, or more precisely in the neurons behind the retina, before the signals are passed to the brain itself. (The upside-down part comes from the fact that the image projected on our retinas is upside-down. Our visual process compensates for this. One experiment in the 70's or early 80's involved someone wearing a getup that inverted his visual field. After a couple of weeks of stumbling around running into things, it "flipped" and he was seeing things right-side-up again. After he took off the getup, he had another couple of weeks of stumbling before his brain re-learned to compensate and "flipped" it back.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 8 21:46:17 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 05:46:17 +0000 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041209055215.GB13845@bofh.com> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Jot Powers Reply-To: Jot Powers To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:52:15 -0700 On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 09:09:22PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Dec 8, 2004, at 9:06 PM, Shannon Wimberly wrote: > > >Of course this may just be a bit of bizarre ramblings on my part do to > >the pain killers I'm on after having my wisdom teeth pulled. Vicodin = > >Good. > > Oh my! I had the same thing done six months ago and Vicodin is awesome. > I can see why people get addicted to the stuff....ooo la la! Underachievers. Percocet. One step removed from opium (literally). Makes vicodin look like tic-tacs. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan Oh yeah, Percocet is the goodness. Every time I have been in the body shop they have perscribed it for me, I don't know if that says something about my choice in doctors or my tendancy to damage myself. Jeff From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Dec 8 22:11:48 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 01:11:48 EST Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <1f5.320eb7d.2ee946a4@aol.com> Shannon Wimberly wrote on Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:09:52 -0800 (PST) >We're awash in promotional swag at my house. Anyone want a Playstation pen? >How about a box of them? Shannon Wimberly wrote on Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:08:09 -0800 (PST) >taken over my garage, my porch and my guest room. Hi, If you want to give the stuff away for free, I read about this website in USA Weekend: freecycle.org I checked and it is still an actual website. That and the tiny article I read are all I know about it. It was set up by a person wanting to reduce the junk put into landfills. Article says "Think of it as eBay without the price tag." "How it works: Local chapters filter listings, members e-mail each other to schedule pickups." You might find a local charity or group who really needs and wants the stuff. Or even easier...just walk into your local Blockbuster with an open box of the pens and say "Here, these are for your customers." And then walk calmly out of the store before they can give them back to you or ask you any questions. Also, your gaming merchandizer husband may want to get in contact with carpovita at earthlink.net AKA Rion Bergquist. There are also several other people on this list involved with conventions. Rion Bergquist wrote on Tue, 7 Dec 2004 > >now I have to have this Brust-ware in my closet and it does not >yet even exist. >Hey Steve can I cut my graphic designers and shirt printer loose on this for >Opus 05? Rion, if this happens, would we have to actually go to Opus 05 to buy something? Bye. Linda G. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Dec 8 17:32:31 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:32:31 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1102555951.2366.777.camel@localhost> Yeah, if it had gone untreated I could have lost sight in the eye, and it could have turned into meningitis, which could have been fatal. But it was treated, so the IRS gets to continue their noble efforts on behalf of the American People with regards to me. I really need to hire a personal assistant. Once I have money to pay one. Meantime, there's this book... On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 21:01, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Steve Brust wrote on Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 > > >Especially today, since the IRS has just seized my bank > >account. (Not to worry; there wasn't much in it anyway). > > Hi, > > The words "not to worry" do not belong in the same > paragraph as the word IRS. > > If I am really "not to worry", more explanation about > why "not to worry" would be necessary. > > I am still worried about your eye infection. I cannot even > put contacts in my eyes. Could you have lost sight in one > eye or even both? Also, it isn't very far from the eye to > the brain. I think there is some sort of direct connection > or maybe it is an upside-down connection. > > > Bye. > > Linda G. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 9 07:02:00 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:02:00 EST Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <194.33b08283.2ee9c2e8@aol.com> In a message dated 12/09/2004 1:35:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: >Yeah, if it had gone untreated I could have lost sight in the eye, and >it could have turned into meningitis, which could have been fatal. But >it was treated, Nasty ocular infections can be fatal if left untreated, are treated improperly with narrow spectrum antibiotics or if the bacteria causing the infection is resistant to conventional oral antibiotics. Due to the increasing resistance of bacteria to present antibiotics oral these types of scenarios are becoming more common place. Due to the proximity of the orbit to the brain it is a short hop through the optic foramen, through the cavernous sinus and into the brain. John D. Barbato, OD From shannon3d at yahoo.com Thu Dec 9 07:41:46 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:41:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <1f5.320eb7d.2ee946a4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041209154146.64271.qmail@web52006.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, the stuff is actually for him to walk into Blockbusters and give away. That's his job. The stuff just tends to spread out and take over expecially during big promotional times (like the end of the year) Freecycle is very nice. I've gotten rid of some old computer stuff and other 'junk' that way. I recommend using it if you've got things you don't want to just throw out but you don't think will sell on ebay. FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: Shannon Wimberly wrote on Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:09:52 -0800 (PST) >We're awash in promotional swag at my house. Anyone want a Playstation pen? >How about a box of them? Shannon Wimberly wrote on Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:08:09 -0800 (PST) >taken over my garage, my porch and my guest room. Hi, If you want to give the stuff away for free, I read about this website in USA Weekend: freecycle.org I checked and it is still an actual website. That and the tiny article I read are all I know about it. It was set up by a person wanting to reduce the junk put into landfills. Article says "Think of it as eBay without the price tag." "How it works: Local chapters filter listings, members e-mail each other to schedule pickups." You might find a local charity or group who really needs and wants the stuff. Or even easier...just walk into your local Blockbuster with an open box of the pens and say "Here, these are for your customers." And then walk calmly out of the store before they can give them back to you or ask you any questions. Also, your gaming merchandizer husband may want to get in contact with carpovita at earthlink.net AKA Rion Bergquist. There are also several other people on this list involved with conventions. Rion Bergquist wrote on Tue, 7 Dec 2004 > >now I have to have this Brust-ware in my closet and it does not >yet even exist. >Hey Steve can I cut my graphic designers and shirt printer loose on this for >Opus 05? Rion, if this happens, would we have to actually go to Opus 05 to buy something? Bye. Linda G. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Dec 9 07:45:19 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:45:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: @> This sounds like a "yes" to me. Anybody else hear a "yes" there? 8 ) @> @> The idea is to provide a small printed link that people could see and @> use as a reference to find the books online, thus generating the @> possibility for more sales and word-of-mouth. If www.dreamcafe.com is @> Steve's and the link attributes back to Greg Brown for the genesis of @> the idea, that should be kosher enough, right? @> @> David, how does Cafe Press work in practice? I see the blurb on their @> site, http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/about/: I'm not David, but this is how it works: You sign up for an account and upload image files. You assign the image files to particular pieces of merchandise (t-shirts, mouse pads, etc). You select how much markup each item will have; each item has a base price which pays for Cafe Press' costs, and you get whatever the markup is. Which is the main problem with Cafe Press, actually - the base price is usually pretty close to what the full price of each item ought to be, because it's print-on-demand, which is costly. (And because Cafe Press wants to make a profit too.) So in general it's pretty good for making swag, but not great for making piles of money unless you're wonderful enough to charge $20 for a t-shirt (which, yes, some people definitely are). But it's a lot less of a risk than printing a couple hundred shirts at a bulk rate and hoping they'll sell, so it's probably the right way to go here, and if it turns out there's insane amounts of demand for this stuff the method of selling it can always be changed. Probably somebody should coordinate picking up designs from people on the list (or wherever) and putting them into Cafepress and then sending profits to Steve. (If the URL is problematic due to copyright, it also might be possible to advertise his work on the shirts in some other way. Like: buy everything by Steven Brust right now, or you'll die a horrible, horrible death.) From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Dec 9 07:55:42 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 09:55:42 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <200412090537.iB95b53v048024@realtime.exit.com> References: <200412090537.iB95b53v048024@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <41B8757E.10706@comcast.net> Frank Mayhar wrote: > One >experiment in the 70's or early 80's involved someone wearing a getup >that inverted his visual field. After a couple of weeks of stumbling >around running into things, it "flipped" and he was seeing things >right-side-up again. After he took off the getup, he had another couple >of weeks of stumbling before his brain re-learned to compensate and "flipped" >it back.) > Just a small nit to pick--I am sure this happened before 1965 because I saw it on the Mr. Wizard TV show. Cheers! Mia From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Dec 9 07:58:49 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 09:58:49 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41B87639.7010300@comcast.net> OTOH, the (very classy) Vorkosigan embroidered shirt, and many others like it, are available from Pegasus Press, which is not print-on-demand, but sells at SF conventions where there is a high concentration of possible buyers. More than one way to skin a Dzur here . . . Mia From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Dec 9 08:15:19 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:15:19 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041209055035.GA13845@bofh.com> Message-ID: <4bed01c4de0a$46d57510$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 08:21:17PM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > > Steve Brust wrote: > > > > >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is > > >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the > > >whole thing. > > > > Well, we don't have to call it Dream Cafe Swag, then. We > can call it > > Jhereg's Loot, or something. *That* part's easy. While it might be a professional courtesy to contact Greg Brown and ask his permission, it shouldn't be neccesary. The only trademark on record for "Dream Caf?" is a now-dead one that belonged to a clothing company (apparently for a line of women's clothes). Using a phrase as a song/album title doesn't automatically preclude other people from using the same phrase for other purposes. In case you're curious, the United State Patent and Trademark Office's Trademark Electronic Search System is located here: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=v8m901.1.1 From frank at exit.com Thu Dec 9 08:33:01 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <41B8757E.10706@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200412091633.iB9GX1lg059504@realtime.exit.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > Frank Mayhar wrote: > > One > >experiment in the 70's or early 80's involved someone wearing a getup > >that inverted his visual field. ... > Just a small nit to pick--I am sure this happened before 1965 because I > saw it on the Mr. Wizard TV show. I stand corrected. All I knew for certain is that it was before 1983, since that's when I read about it in class. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 9 08:34:13 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:34:13 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <70C85FBE.6FBB5507.00184D6D@aol.com> Percocet. One step removed from opium (literally). Makes vicodin look like tic-tacs. It's true. My provider is nick named "The Candy Girl" due to how many she gives out to patients in pain! -Crystal From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 9 09:10:27 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:10:27 EST Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <79.3a5ace70.2ee9e103@aol.com> In a message dated 12/09/2004 11:40:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 writes: >Nasty ocular infections can be fatal if left untreated, are treated >improperly with narrow spectrum antibiotics or if the bacteria causing the infection >is >resistant to conventional oral antibiotics. Due to the increasing resistance >of bacteria to present antibiotics oral these types of scenarios are becoming >more common place. Due to the proximity of the orbit to the brain it is a >short hop through the optic foramen, through the cavernous sinus and into the brain. >John D. Barbato, OD >Don't you sound smart **cute smerk** ;o) >-Crystal >p.s. I hope that didn't sound offensive...I was really trying to be cute not a jerk. Hey man, it's my job!!! I hope I got it right, that's digging back to Gross anatomy about 15 years ago. You are not offensive, and pretty cool,---- for a girl ; ) John D. Barbato, OD From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Dec 9 09:38:49 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 12:38:49 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <41B87639.7010300@comcast.net> References: Message-ID: <41B84759.2284.B3AE32@localhost> On 9 Dec 2004 at 9:58, Mia McDavid wrote > OTOH, the (very classy) Vorkosigan embroidered shirt, and many others > like it, are available from Pegasus Press, which is not > print-on-demand, but sells at SF conventions where there is a high > concentration of possible buyers. More than one way to skin a Dzur > here . . . > > Mia You meant Pegasuspublishing.com, right? Thanks for the tip, I haven't finished Christmas shopping yet! M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Dec 9 10:15:06 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 12:15:06 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: (Johne Cook's message of "Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:15:20 -0600") References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: Johne Cook writes: > David, how does Cafe Press work in practice? The merchandise is of good quality, and their service is good. The prices are somewhat high -- they're making a good profit on it I'm sure, and doing one-offs isn't cheap. They're easy to work with. You upload graphics, apply them to products, and they do the rest. There are free shops and "premium" shops. Free shops are limited to *one* of each product -- one t-shirt, one white hat, one black hat. Premium shops aren't, and cost $7/month or $60/year. If profits are small, they tend to delay paying you, or encourage you to use it as credit instead of taking cash. I've currently got $6.25 pending from them; I won't get a check until it reaches $25. Just having their page with your products out there will not get you sales. But of course the mailing list lets us reach many of the people who are potentially interested, and dragaera.info some more (I could see listing merchandise on dragaera.info). If somebody wants to take this and run with it at the level of trying to make it commercial (which would mean, I guess, selling to a lot of people beyond the mailing list), that might take precedence over some kind of group not-really-for-profit project. Of course a commercial approach would have to pay artists and pay Steven for permissions. (Well, artists certainly could choose to work for free, and Steven could give permission for free, but that isn't the way to bet for a commercial project). If what we're really looking for is a way to get some cool gear for ourselves and some friends on the mailing list (and I think it is), then we can do a little with a few free Cafe Press shops, with some kind of deal with Steven. And you'll notice Christmas is coming up, if we move *quickly*. Because of the limitations of free shops, we can't have like zillions of t-shirt designs. It does look like you can have *multiple* free shops -- so there could be a Jhereg shop, and a Tiassa shop, and a Dzur shop, and a Dragon shop, say, and thus there could be 4 different t-shirt designs, one per shop. I haven't tried this, the limitation reads as per-shop, and the "premium" status is per-shop, but it seems like creating infinitely many free shops is such an obvious way to get around the premium charge that they'd have some way to block it. Black t-shirts are not a possibility at Cafe Press; I believe their printing technology isn't opaque enough to work on black. I'd suggest we offer Steven $1 per product sold and see if he'll go for that. Perhaps the artist who designed each product should also get $1 per product? That does complicate the accounting, though, and I'm sort-of half volunteering to coordinate this so that would be my problem. But artists are important to this project. Payable only after Cafe Press pays us :-) (which means $25 profit, that's the lowest level they will pay at). Then we kick around design ideas or actual designs on the list, and settle on a small number of each product that seem most popular, and get them up on shops, and I'll link to them from Dragaera.info. The obvious products of interest are t-shirts and mugs, it seems to me. They do actually have *18* different kinds of t-shirts, but they're not at all equivalent. Some are colored, one is in infant sizes only, etc. But there's a "women's t-shirt" that could have the "bitch patrol" design, say, and we could still use other plain t-shirts for other designs. There are hats, and buttons, and magnets, and bumper stickers, and license-plate frames. The "value T" is $8.99 base, but the organic cotton T is $16.99 base (and has more printable spots on it). For really small demand items, there's a way for people with accounts to order custom merchandise not through any store; so I could order small batches of individual designs without setting up a store for them. So let's kick some ideas around! -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 10:27:33 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:27:33 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 12:15:06 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > The merchandise is of good quality, and their service is good. The > prices are somewhat high -- they're making a good profit on it I'm > sure, and doing one-offs isn't cheap. > > They're easy to work with. You upload graphics, apply them to > products, and they do the rest. How about a quick brainstorming thread where we upload ideas and then select the top ideas for this go 'round and start with something simple, something iconic enough to amuse and provoke interest, something that won't involve paying royalties to artists (at this early stage). Thinkgeek has some simple RTFM mugs (white text on black background) that are amusing, instantly recognizable (in certain circles), and very simple. I was thinking along those lines for starters. Bummer about the black t-shirts. Such is life. I liked the "Got Klava?" idea. I'm thinking that some of the clever quips and tie-ins could draw people to the site and then spur book sales. I could see that on a mug. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Thu Dec 9 10:37:23 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:37:23 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:15 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > Because of the limitations of free shops, we can't have like zillions > of t-shirt designs. It does look like you can have *multiple* free > shops -- so there could be a Jhereg shop, and a Tiassa shop, and a > Dzur shop, and a Dragon shop, say, and thus there could be 4 different > t-shirt designs, one per shop. I haven't tried this, the limitation > reads as per-shop, and the "premium" status is per-shop, but it seems > like creating infinitely many free shops is such an obvious way to get > around the premium charge that they'd have some way to block it. > According to what I'm seeing on the website, you can open as many free stores as you like (http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/shops.aspx). Presumably they're hoping that the administrative hassle of having dozens of "shops" will force their customers into opening a single premium shop before it gets that far out of hand. That isn't necessarily too far off base, seeing that in most cases a successful line of branding could pay for the subscription price before you really needed to have two coffee mug styles, while a not-successful line probably wouldn't need two designs in any given category anyway. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Thu Dec 9 10:40:29 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:40:29 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Johne Cook [mailto:johne.cook at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:28 PM > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > I liked the "Got Klava?" idea. I'm thinking that some of the clever > quips and tie-ins could draw people to the site and then spur book > sales. I could see that on a mug. I'm too broke to be buying mugs, desirable as they may be, but I'd certainly put it on my Christmas list. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 9 10:39:44 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:39:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <200412091839.iB9IditN012271@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Steven Brust wrote: > Yeah, if it had gone untreated I could have lost sight in the eye, and > it could have turned into meningitis, which could have been fatal. But > it was treated, Ugh. Meningitis isn't fun. I had it when I was about fourteen. The Profound Truth I learned from the experience? Spinal Taps suck, and leave *everything* to be desired. Very glad to know you're doing better. :) Chris From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 9 11:05:22 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:05:22 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > Johne Cook writes: > > > David, how does Cafe Press work in practice? > > The merchandise is of good quality, and their service is good. The > prices are somewhat high -- they're making a good profit on it I'm > sure, and doing one-offs isn't cheap. > > They're easy to work with. You upload graphics, apply them to > products, and they do the rest. > > There are free shops and "premium" shops. Free shops are limited to > *one* of each product -- one t-shirt, one white hat, one black hat. > Premium shops aren't, and cost $7/month or $60/year. > > If profits are small, they tend to delay paying you, or encourage you > to use it as credit instead of taking cash. I've currently got $6.25 > pending from them; I won't get a check until it reaches $25. > > Just having their page with your products out there will not get you > sales. But of course the mailing list lets us reach many of the > people who are potentially interested, and dragaera.info some more (I > could see listing merchandise on dragaera.info). > > If somebody wants to take this and run with it at the level of trying > to make it commercial (which would mean, I guess, selling to a lot of > people beyond the mailing list), that might take precedence over some > kind of group not-really-for-profit project. Of course a commercial > approach would have to pay artists and pay Steven for permissions. > (Well, artists certainly could choose to work for free, and Steven > could give permission for free, but that isn't the way to bet for a > commercial project). > > If what we're really looking for is a way to get some cool gear for > ourselves and some friends on the mailing list (and I think it is), > then we can do a little with a few free Cafe Press shops, with some > kind of deal with Steven. And you'll notice Christmas is coming up, > if we move *quickly*. > > Because of the limitations of free shops, we can't have like zillions > of t-shirt designs. It does look like you can have *multiple* free > shops -- so there could be a Jhereg shop, and a Tiassa shop, and a > Dzur shop, and a Dragon shop, say, and thus there could be 4 different > t-shirt designs, one per shop. I haven't tried this, the limitation > reads as per-shop, and the "premium" status is per-shop, but it seems > like creating infinitely many free shops is such an obvious way to get > around the premium charge that they'd have some way to block it. > > Black t-shirts are not a possibility at Cafe Press; I believe their > printing technology isn't opaque enough to work on black. > > I'd suggest we offer Steven $1 per product sold and see if he'll go > for that. Perhaps the artist who designed each product should also > get $1 per product? That does complicate the accounting, though, and > I'm sort-of half volunteering to coordinate this so that would be my > problem. But artists are important to this project. Payable only > after Cafe Press pays us :-) (which means $25 profit, that's the > lowest level they will pay at). > > Then we kick around design ideas or actual designs on the list, and > settle on a small number of each product that seem most popular, and > get them up on shops, and I'll link to them from Dragaera.info. > > The obvious products of interest are t-shirts and mugs, it seems to > me. They do actually have *18* different kinds of t-shirts, but > they're not at all equivalent. Some are colored, one is in infant > sizes only, etc. But there's a "women's t-shirt" that could have the > "bitch patrol" design, say, and we could still use other plain > t-shirts for other designs. There are hats, and buttons, and magnets, > and bumper stickers, and license-plate frames. > > The "value T" is $8.99 base, but the organic cotton T is $16.99 base > (and has more printable spots on it). > > For really small demand items, there's a way for people with accounts > to order custom merchandise not through any store; so I could order > small batches of individual designs without setting up a store for > them. > > So let's kick some ideas around! > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Pics: > Dragaera/Steven Brust: > I may be able to work a better deal to get the product. My friend owns an awards shops, Eagle Awards (shameless plug). I will contact him and find out about what he can do for shirts, mugs, maybe calenders? The only downside is he is not set up on the web for sales, we would have to handle that on our own. I will find out the numbers and get them back here. Jeff G. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Dec 9 11:10:02 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:10:02 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Jeff G.'s message of 9 December 2004 References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <16824.41738.371722.83441@gw.dd-b.net> > > > David, how does Cafe Press work in practice? > > > > The merchandise is of good quality, and their service is good. The > > prices are somewhat high -- they're making a good profit on it I'm > > sure, and doing one-offs isn't cheap. > > > > They're easy to work with. You upload graphics, apply them to > > products, and they do the rest. > I may be able to work a better deal to get the product. My friend > owns an awards shops, Eagle Awards (shameless plug). I will contact > him and find out about what he can do for shirts, mugs, maybe > calenders? The only downside is he is not set up on the web for > sales, we would have to handle that on our own. I will find out the > numbers and get them back here. In general, you can get *much* better prices if you do a bulk order. It's produced by conventional technologies that have a much lower per-unit cost. But it limits the number of designs you can give people, and requires you to get the order set ahead of time. Tradeoffs, life is full of these little tradeoffs :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Dec 9 11:12:04 2004 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:12:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041209191204.40380.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> > I may be able to work a better deal to get the > product. My friend owns an > awards shops, Eagle Awards (shameless plug). I will > contact him and find out > about what he can do for shirts, mugs, maybe > calenders? The only downside is > he is not set up on the web for sales, we would have > to handle that on our > own. I will find out the numbers and get them back > here. > > Jeff G. We could always use e-bay's "buy-it-now" feature to sell the shirts/mugs, which should allow us to use pay-pay or credit-cards to pay for the items. From frank at exit.com Thu Dec 9 11:11:49 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:11:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200412091911.iB9JBnxS071510@realtime.exit.com> Jeff G. wrote: > I may be able to work a better deal to get the product. My friend owns an > awards shops, Eagle Awards (shameless plug). I will contact him and find out > about what he can do for shirts, mugs, maybe calenders? The only downside is > he is not set up on the web for sales, we would have to handle that on our > own. I will find out the numbers and get them back here. Well, I do have a webstore (which can take Visa, Amex, MC and Discover), but I would need to add a bit to cover my overhead. Maybe a buck or two per unit. Let me know if this would be useful. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Dec 9 06:22:03 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:22:03 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <4bed01c4de0a$46d57510$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <4bed01c4de0a$46d57510$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <1102602123.2366.809.camel@localhost> I suppose I could send email to Mr. Brown and ask him. I know that I certainly wouldn't do this without asking him. On Thu, 2004-12-09 at 08:15, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 08:21:17PM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > > > Steve Brust wrote: > > > > > > >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is > > > >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the > > > >whole thing. > > > > > > Well, we don't have to call it Dream Cafe Swag, then. We > > can call it > > > Jhereg's Loot, or something. *That* part's easy. > > While it might be a professional courtesy to contact Greg Brown and ask his > permission, it shouldn't be neccesary. The only trademark on record for > "Dream Caf?" is a now-dead one that belonged to a clothing company > (apparently for a line of women's clothes). Using a phrase as a song/album > title doesn't automatically preclude other people from using the same phrase > for other purposes. > > In case you're curious, the United State Patent and Trademark Office's > Trademark Electronic Search System is located here: > > http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=v8m901.1.1 > > > From howard at brazee.net Thu Dec 9 11:30:25 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:30:25 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <200412091633.iB9GX1lg059504@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <000801c4de25$8937fac0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Frank Mayhar wrote: > Mia McDavid wrote: >> Frank Mayhar wrote: >>> One >>> experiment in the 70's or early 80's involved someone wearing a >>> getup that inverted his visual field. ... >> Just a small nit to pick--I am sure this happened before 1965 >> because I saw it on the Mr. Wizard TV show. > > I stand corrected. All I knew for certain is that it was before 1983, > since that's when I read about it in class. I'm pretty sure I first came across it before 1965 (I was in high school in 1965). Google shows that the first experiment may be more than 80 years old. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Dec 9 11:53:48 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:53:48 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41B8AD4C.80006@email.ers.usda.gov> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >If what we're really looking for is a way to get some cool gear for >ourselves and some friends on the mailing list (and I think it is), > > Gee, and here I was thinking this was a "let's get Steven out of hock with the IRS" plan (-: >Because of the limitations of free shops, we can't have like zillions >of t-shirt designs. It does look like you can have *multiple* free >shops -- so there could be a Jhereg shop, and a Tiassa shop, and a >Dzur shop, and a Dragon shop, say, and thus there could be 4 different >t-shirt designs, one per shop. > > Think I'd start slow until I was what the demand really was, rather than fragment it among a bunch of ideas. Myself, I would go for t's, but I already got too darned many mugs as is, especially from the annual Go Congress (-: > > >So let's kick some ideas around! > > All of them sound good to me, actually, so that's no help (-: When I read "Got Morganti?" I instantly thought of the Captain Morgan rum commercials running now, although I am loyal to Mount Gay for the great work they do supporting regattas (& the nice hats you can't get anywhere else). If you do "Got klava?", how about printing a summary of the steps on the back? Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 9 13:36:51 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:36:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <200412090003.iB903KtN029513@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200412090003.iB903KtN029513@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: SKJB? SKZB brings up 5.6k hits on google (vs 1.6k), but probably many of them are like the third hit: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:11247:200401:oflceecdhdifmjmhhneb Anyway, maybe The Author will find the following consoling or amusing: http://www.ct.gov/drs/cwp/view.asp?a=1453&q=266096&drsNav=| From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 9 13:37:31 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <5EEA63ED.014D570A.00184D6D@aol.com> If you do "Got klava?", how about printing a summary of the steps on the back? That sounds cute... -Crystal From hereward at rogers.com Thu Dec 9 15:32:30 2004 From: hereward at rogers.com (GARY RUSSELL) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:32:30 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <200412090003.iB903KtN029513@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <005101c4de47$5a554b00$6501a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> This is probably cute to an audience of me, but I always wanted a shirt with a small crest of an appropriately blunt object with Naal written underneath, and his great line (I'm AFB) on the back: I see you got a whole head there, I can heal that for you.(or the exact wording, not my memory version). I also really like the Got Morganti? idea, but not just plain, a nice jhereg-like image on the back, perhaps. (I have a couple of Got Joss? objects already) GJR From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Dec 9 18:47:33 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 20:47:33 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <41B8AD4C.80006@email.ers.usda.gov> (Ken Koester's message of "Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:53:48 -0500") References: <41B7B69D.7080307@comcast.net> <41B8AD4C.80006@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester writes: >> So let's kick some ideas around! > All of them sound good to me, actually, so that's no help (-: When I > read "Got Morganti?" I instantly thought of the Captain Morgan rum > commercials running now, although I am loyal to Mount Gay for the > great work they do supporting regattas (& the nice hats you can't get > anywhere else). If you do "Got klava?", how about printing a summary > of the steps on the back? Okay, I'm starting to post ideas as I see them or think of them to a not-very-secret web page at . Brainstorm first -- kick in ideas, don't argue against anything. Hoping to find those obvious winning ideas that make the decision phase so easy! -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Dec 10 13:02:18 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:02:18 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <0721C8D7.69CF1775.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 12/9/2004 9:47:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "David Dyer-Bennet" writes: > Okay, I'm starting to post ideas as I see them or think of > them to a not-very-secret web page at > . > > Brainstorm first -- kick in ideas, don't argue against > anything. Hoping to find those obvious winning ideas that > make the decision phase so easy! "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] "I truly loathe and despise money and all things associated with it, and I will continue to do so until I'm making enough so I don't have to worry about it." [gold on green on most expensive looking shirt] quote verified: 76.5% in _Issola_ chapter 10 "If all you've got's a stick, everything looks like a kneecap." And the knife/breeze metaphor is the first paragraph of the prologue of _Jhereg_. The onion one is the first couple pages of the first chapter of _Yendi_. --KG From dustysayers at earthlink.net Fri Dec 10 14:04:38 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:04:38 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <0721C8D7.69CF1775.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <0721C8D7.69CF1775.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <41BA1D76.3070809@earthlink.net> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/9/2004 9:47:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "David Dyer-Bennet" writes: > > > >>Okay, I'm starting to post ideas as I see them or think of >>them to a not-very-secret web page at >>. >> >>Brainstorm first -- kick in ideas, don't argue against >>anything. Hoping to find those obvious winning ideas that >>make the decision phase so easy! >> >> > >"I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] > >"I truly loathe and despise money and all things associated >with it, and I will continue to do so until I'm making enough >so I don't have to worry about it." [gold on green on most >expensive looking shirt] > >quote verified: 76.5% in _Issola_ chapter 10 >"If all you've got's a stick, everything looks like a kneecap." > >And the knife/breeze metaphor is the first paragraph of the >prologue of _Jhereg_. The onion one is the first couple pages >of the first chapter of _Yendi_. > > >--KG > > > > I would definitely buy a 'Life is like and onion' shirt. I'd take a serious look at other stuff too, I'm sure (I do love the 'I don't paint' exchange). -- J A Dusty Sayers 'With the possible exception of Lincoln, no man has faced greater challenges as President than William Howard Taft. 'Taft had severe obstructive sleep apnea.' -- Apneos Corporation Webpage (http://www.apneos.com/) From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Dec 10 14:00:56 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:00:56 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <0721C8D7.69CF1775.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <41B9D648.13571.1A00994@localhost> > In a message dated 12/9/2004 9:47:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "David > Dyer-Bennet" writes: > > > > > Brainstorm first -- kick in ideas, don't argue against > > anything. Hoping to find those obvious winning ideas that > > make the decision phase so easy! I would buy almost anything with the quote from Jhereg (copied >from Amazon.com). "There is a similarity, if I may be permitted an excursion into tenuous metaphor, between the feel of a chilly breeze and the feel of a knife's blade, as either is laid across the back of one's neck." I like the idea of a Valabar's shirt too - and "Everybody generalizes >from one example", which seems to be a list motto. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From rakehell at usa.net Fri Dec 10 14:29:54 2004 From: rakehell at usa.net (G Wilhelm) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:29:54 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> "The Blue Flame Let our staff handle the work for you." (Appropriate restaurant-type picture in the background) "Kragar's over there --->" "Candletown Take your mind off your work" (Appropriate beach scenery in background.) "Assassin" (on the front) "...but still a real sweetheart." (on the back) "Sorceress" (printed on a green shirt) Hmmm, I'm sure there are others, just need to think on it a bit more. -- GCW ------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:06:15 PM EST From: J A 'Dusty' Sayers To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > >In a message dated 12/9/2004 9:47:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "David Dyer-Bennet" writes: > > > > > > > >>Okay, I'm starting to post ideas as I see them or think of > >>them to a not-very-secret web page at > >>. > >> > >>Brainstorm first -- kick in ideas, don't argue against > >>anything. Hoping to find those obvious winning ideas that > >>make the decision phase so easy! > >> > >> > > > >"I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] > > > >"I truly loathe and despise money and all things associated > >with it, and I will continue to do so until I'm making enough > >so I don't have to worry about it." [gold on green on most > >expensive looking shirt] > > > >quote verified: 76.5% in _Issola_ chapter 10 > >"If all you've got's a stick, everything looks like a kneecap." > > > >And the knife/breeze metaphor is the first paragraph of the > >prologue of _Jhereg_. The onion one is the first couple pages > >of the first chapter of _Yendi_. > > > > > >--KG > > > > > > > > > I would definitely buy a 'Life is like and onion' shirt. I'd take a > serious look at other stuff too, I'm sure (I do love the 'I don't paint' > exchange). > > -- > J A Dusty Sayers > > 'With the possible exception of Lincoln, no man has faced greater challenges as President than William Howard Taft. > 'Taft had severe obstructive sleep apnea.' > -- Apneos Corporation Webpage (http://www.apneos.com/) > > > > From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Dec 10 14:49:54 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:49:54 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <00f401c4df0a$90af2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Well, if you're serious about all this, some random opinions: Expect about 25% of the people who think something is a good idea to actually pony up when it comes down to paying real cash for it. Take this into consideration when deciding on methods of production that require advance payment and/or minimum quantities. To be truly effective, tee-shirt slogans should be based on some sort of wit that a non-Brust reader could appreciate. The "knife between the shoulderblades" quote is a good example, because Tolkein's original is reasonably well-known, especially after the popularity of the films. "Got Morganti?" is an amusing in-joke and might even garner a few appreciative nods at a con, but it's something that that no-one outside of the Brust-reading community would "get". The former would have a greater chance of making the viewer smile and possibly go to dreamcafe.com to learn more about it. It serves the double purpose of selling more tee-shirts and introducing new readers to Brust/Dragaera, whereas the second only caters to the inside knowledge of its wearer. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Dec 10 15:37:23 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:37:23 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <00f401c4df0a$90af2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> (Scott Schultz's message of "Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:49:54 -0800") References: <00f401c4df0a$90af2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" writes: > Well, if you're serious about all this, some random opinions: > > Expect about 25% of the people who think something is a good idea to > actually pony up when it comes down to paying real cash for it. Take this > into consideration when deciding on methods of production that require > advance payment and/or minimum quantities. Sure. *I'm* certainly not investing any money into this in hopes of making money. I'll invest some time in hopes of having fun, though. And that's why I'm happy going with Cafe Press; no cost to play. > To be truly effective, tee-shirt slogans should be based on some > sort of wit that a non-Brust reader could appreciate. The "knife > between the shoulderblades" quote is a good example, because > Tolkein's original is reasonably well-known, especially after the > popularity of the films. "Got Morganti?" is an amusing in-joke and > might even garner a few appreciative nods at a con, but it's > something that that no-one outside of the Brust-reading community > would "get". The former would have a greater chance of making the > viewer smile and possibly go to dreamcafe.com to learn more about > it. It serves the double purpose of selling more tee-shirts and > introducing new readers to Brust/Dragaera, whereas the second only > caters to the inside knowledge of its wearer. I'm not sure I agree with this. It's relevant to selling beyond the Brust community, but I don't think that's especially the goal. I'm more thinking in terms of people *in* the community recognizing each other in person, and in showing Brust interest to others who could talk about it. (I'm actually thinking in terms of pointing to dragaera.info rather than dreamcafe.com, but they point to each other anyway, so that's more a second-order difference.) And since I'm posting on the topic, the accumulated ideas, up-to-date as of right now, are at . -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Dec 10 15:37:41 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:37:41 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <00f401c4df0a$90af2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20041210233752.KLNB27771.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@Soltan> Respectfully, and despite "Got Morganti?" not being my idea: Your point about needing to market to more than just Brust insiders is well-taken. And many of the jokes or references that are being offered are entirely "in-jokes" that no one would get even partially. But one way of intriguing new fans is to give them a structure with which they are familiar and then use some unfamiliar term in place of an expected one. "Got Morganti" is just this kind of thing, since it draws on a familiar marketing structure and introduces a mysterious new word. People will relate "morganti" to something they can and should have, and will want to know more about this thing that is being compared to milk (I'm generalizing from one instance here.....). Other familiar joke-structures can be used in the same way, with specifically Brust-ian punchlines providing a hook to entice people to find out what these words or phrases mean. This makes Steve's work pop-culture and people like pop culture. Of course, this might mean that Steve's stuff someday ends up in "Hot Topic", and I'm not sure I could stand that... Some of the other ideas are just great for t-shirts as they stand, but they may not do the job of grabbing a new readership. The "Everybody generalizes" joke is great, and would look great on a t-shirt, and everyone would get it, but even with the attribution to Steven or a weblink people might write it off the same way they do Hallmark cards: they kind of don't care anything about the person who came up with the phrase, they just like to say it. Shawn -----Original Message----- From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:50 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Well, if you're serious about all this, some random opinions: Expect about 25% of the people who think something is a good idea to actually pony up when it comes down to paying real cash for it. Take this into consideration when deciding on methods of production that require advance payment and/or minimum quantities. To be truly effective, tee-shirt slogans should be based on some sort of wit that a non-Brust reader could appreciate. The "knife between the shoulderblades" quote is a good example, because Tolkein's original is reasonably well-known, especially after the popularity of the films. "Got Morganti?" is an amusing in-joke and might even garner a few appreciative nods at a con, but it's something that that no-one outside of the Brust-reading community would "get". The former would have a greater chance of making the viewer smile and possibly go to dreamcafe.com to learn more about it. It serves the double purpose of selling more tee-shirts and introducing new readers to Brust/Dragaera, whereas the second only caters to the inside knowledge of its wearer. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Dec 10 16:40:16 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:40:16 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <34438B06.3AF8FF78.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 12/10/2004 5:49:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Scott Schultz" writes: > Well, if you're serious about all this, some random opinions: > > Expect about 25% of the people who think something is a good > idea to actually pony up when it comes down to paying real > cash for it. Take this into consideration when deciding on > methods of production that require advance payment and/or > minimum quantities. Heh, you're more optimistic than I am. And just for the record, I'll be in the majority. All my extra money goes to books. > To be truly effective, tee-shirt slogans should be based on > some sort of wit that a non-Brust reader could appreciate. The > "knife between the shoulderblades" quote is a good example, > because Tolkein's original is reasonably well-known, > especially after the popularity of the films. "Got Morganti?" > is an amusing in-joke and might even garner a few appreciative > nods at a con, but it's something that that no-one outside of > the Brust-reading community would "get". The former would have > a greater chance of making the viewer smile and possibly go to > dreamcafe.com to learn more about it. It serves the double > purpose of selling more tee-shirts and introducing new readers > to Brust/Dragaera, whereas the second only caters to the > inside knowledge of its wearer. Yeah, I wouldn't want to try to explain to a random stranger what Morganti means. A few ideas I had since my previous post: "I *am* cute." [see about using this image: http://stephenhickman.com/jhereg3.jpg ] Jhereg: "Ask me about my /work/." jhereg: "Will /work/ for carrion." "Memory is like a whatchacallit." a Yendi shirt should be glossy black on matte black, or glow in the dark white on white (someone has already mentioned that the former isn't available; what about the latter?) --KG From ambyrglow at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 17:26:21 2004 From: ambyrglow at gmail.com (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:26:21 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> References: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2004, at 5:29 PM, G Wilhelm wrote: > > "Kragar's over there > --->" I -like- that. I've also always been rather fond of the following quote from The Paths of the Dead, but I don't know how well it work on a t-shirt. . . "It is good," said the Enchantress, "to find one's self in agreement with the gods." "Is it?" "Yes. It shows the gods have some wisdom." Claire From howard at brazee.net Fri Dec 10 18:38:05 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:38:05 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <34438B06.3AF8FF78.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c4df2a$721c3c10$667ba8c0@Dad133> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Yeah, I wouldn't want to try to explain to a random stranger > what Morganti means. > All you do is mention that it has to do with being a fan of the fiction of Steven Brust. From howard at brazee.net Fri Dec 10 18:38:46 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:38:46 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c4df2a$8a1578e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > On Dec 10, 2004, at 5:29 PM, G Wilhelm wrote: >> >> "Kragar's over there >> --->" > > I -like- that. Me too. From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Dec 10 18:46:47 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 21:46:47 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <000101c4df2a$8a1578e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000101c4df2a$8a1578e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2004, at 9:38 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > Claire Rojstaczer wrote: >> On Dec 10, 2004, at 5:29 PM, G Wilhelm wrote: >>> >>> "Kragar's over there >>> --->" >> >> I -like- that. > > Me too. > Me three :) From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Dec 10 19:36:26 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 21:36:26 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <34438B06.3AF8FF78.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com's message of "Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:40:16 -0500") References: <34438B06.3AF8FF78.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > A few ideas I had since my previous post: Thanks! [snipped] > a Yendi shirt should be glossy black on matte black, or glow > in the dark white on white (someone has already mentioned that > the former isn't available; what about the latter?) All I see in the selection is white, natural, and a couple of fairly pastel colors -- green, pink, maybe a yellow. There are additional products available to premium shops, but. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sat Dec 11 09:18:05 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:18:05 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> References: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: <20041211171805.GA3312@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Dec 10, 2004 at 05:29:54PM -0500, G Wilhelm wrote: > "Kragar's over there > --->" I'd prefer one that simply said "I'm With Kragar", and no other hints. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> From shannon3d at yahoo.com Sat Dec 11 11:15:44 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:15:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041211171805.GA3312@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20041211191544.65446.qmail@web52006.mail.yahoo.com> Or perhpas "Krager's with me." or "Where's Krager?" Steve Simmons wrote: On Fri, Dec 10, 2004 at 05:29:54PM -0500, G Wilhelm wrote: > "Kragar's over there > --->" I'd prefer one that simply said "I'm With Kragar", and no other hints. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Dec 11 13:44:05 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:44:05 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041211171805.GA3312@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> (Steve Simmons's message of "Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:18:05 -0500") References: <552iLJwd36720S09.1102717794@cmsweb09.cms.usa.net> <20041211171805.GA3312@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > "I'm With Kragar" Added. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 11 15:26:49 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:26:49 -0000 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041211232532.RNTC2279.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Hi All, I have a friend who runs a small company that does promotional clothing, and I know that he would be happy to do a small (or large) run for me. The technology he uses will print on black T-Shirts. I'm certain of this as he has already produced a couple of T-Shirts for me. The downsides I see for this are: Location. I and he are located in England. Transport is going to add to the price of this. Cost. He is a friend of mine, but he has to make money. I would anticipate a cost of around ?13-14 pounds if we include full color graphics and text on a 215 GSM T-Shirt. The T-Shirts are excellent quality. I'd have to check with him on exact cost once we know what is being done, I pay a bit more than the figure I mentioned for 1-offs, I am assuming that a bulk run would save a little money. I can send a photo to one of the sample of his work to anybody who wants to see it, or maybe it can be put on a website. Also, this is not limited to T-Shirts, he can do Polo shirts etc. Let me know what anyone thinks. Cheers Mark From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Sat Dec 11 22:32:57 2004 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:32:57 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041211232532.RNTC2279.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: A polo shirt with a mini-jhereg at left breast pocket area would be Cool. (I think.) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >From: "Mark Tiller" >To: "'David Dyer-Bennet'" , >Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas >Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:26:49 -0000 > >Hi All, > >I have a friend who runs a small company that does promotional clothing, >and >I know that he would be happy to do a small (or large) run for me. The >technology he uses will print on black T-Shirts. I'm certain of this as he >has already produced a couple of T-Shirts for me. > >The downsides I see for this are: > >Location. > >I and he are located in England. Transport is going to add to the price of >this. > >Cost. > >He is a friend of mine, but he has to make money. I would anticipate a >cost >of around ?13-14 pounds if we include full color graphics and text on a 215 >GSM T-Shirt. The T-Shirts are excellent quality. > >I'd have to check with him on exact cost once we know what is being done, I >pay a bit more than the figure I mentioned for 1-offs, I am assuming that a >bulk run would save a little money. > >I can send a photo to one of the sample of his work to anybody who wants to >see it, or maybe it can be put on a website. Also, this is not limited to >T-Shirts, he can do Polo shirts etc. > >Let me know what anyone thinks. > >Cheers > >Mark > > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Dec 11 23:05:10 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:05:10 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <142.3ae4b3bd.2eed47a6@aol.com> Today's cooking extract is from Emperor Tortaalik I in Dragaera City. "His Majesty looked down at his plate, where a few lonely fish bones were floating in a sea of butter and lemon. He wiped his lips on his sleeve" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eighth, page 100 Bye. Linda G. From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com Sat Dec 11 23:13:53 2004 From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:13:53 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041212071346.9109216D2AC@pippin.dreamhost.com> I like the idea of a shirt that has the Phoenix Guards crest on the front and on the back it just says "SECURITY" or something cleverer than I can come up with - definitely not "POLICE". From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Dec 11 23:51:13 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <142.3ae4b3bd.2eed47a6@aol.com> References: <142.3ae4b3bd.2eed47a6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Today's cooking extract is from Emperor Tortaalik I in Dragaera City. > > "His Majesty looked down at his plate, where a few lonely fish > bones were floating in a sea of butter and lemon. He wiped his > lips on his sleeve" > > Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eighth, page 100 AFB, but the booksearch yields: "a few lonely fish bones were floating (belly up, perhaps) in a sea of butter and lemon. He then wiped his lips on his sleeve..." I wonder if the scanner added a few garnishes... At "belly up" I'm suddenly in Gormenghast. From casey at the-bat.net Sun Dec 12 03:53:59 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:53:59 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001f01c4e041$4447f8c0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Philip Hart wrote > > AFB, but the booksearch yields: > > "a few lonely fish bones were floating (belly up, perhaps) in > a sea of butter and lemon. He then wiped his lips on his sleeve..." > > I wonder if the scanner added a few garnishes... At "belly > up" I'm suddenly in Gormenghast. Booksearch was originally put together using texts that were not necessarily the final published version. From howard at brazee.net Sun Dec 12 07:57:40 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:57:40 -0700 Subject: Kushiel's Dart Message-ID: <000401c4e063$4f8002b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> I read the following in Steve's Weblog: Sun Oct 3rd, 2004 6:25 PM I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since Dumas. I could go on at some length, but skip that. Just read it. ========================================== So I am reading it. I read a couple of chapters and then get to masochism and sadism and have to stop. I just don't enjoy that stuff. I put the book aside and read something quick and easy such as _Life of Pi_, then read another chapter or two until I get uncomfortable again. I had to give up reading Diane Mott Davidson in the first book when I read how she would go back to her first husband who purposefully broke her knuckles with a hammer. I did read a review that in her latest book, her ex is the victim. My wife didn't have problems with either of these. Assassination is one thing. And even pain. I love the opening scene in the movie _Lawrence of Arabia_ where Lawrence explains the "trick" in letting a match go out against his fingers. (the trick is not to mind). But associating pain with love doesn't work with me and messes up my enjoyment of the books. I wonder what other turn-offs readers have similar to this, causing us to not like otherwise enjoyable books. From howard at brazee.net Sun Dec 12 08:02:33 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:02:33 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c4e063$fe45d4f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> James Griffin wrote: > A polo shirt with a mini-jhereg at left breast pocket area would be > Cool. (I think.) Trouble is, who will recognize what the animal is? Professional authors who paint covers after presumably reading the books create something that doesn't fit what I have read. (They also have a clean-shaven Vlad). Fans argue about how many legs they have when making beautiful 3-D depictions. Hey, it's Pip the Mini-Dragon!!! Our imaginations don't all create the same image. From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Dec 12 08:04:10 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <000401c4e063$4f8002b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000401c4e063$4f8002b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <75FC690E-4C57-11D9-8E2D-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > I read the following in Steve's Weblog: > Sun Oct 3rd, 2004 6:25 PM > > > I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's > the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has > excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural > and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in > itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot > bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace > intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since > Dumas. > > I could go on at some length, but skip that. Just read it. > > ========================================== > > So I am reading it. > > I read a couple of chapters and then get to masochism and sadism and > have to > stop. I just don't enjoy that stuff. I put the book aside and read > something quick and easy such as _Life of Pi_, then read another > chapter or > two until I get uncomfortable again. > > I had to give up reading Diane Mott Davidson in the first book when I > read > how she would go back to her first husband who purposefully broke her > knuckles with a hammer. I did read a review that in her latest book, > her > ex is the victim. > > My wife didn't have problems with either of these. Assassination is > one > thing. And even pain. I love the opening scene in the movie > _Lawrence of > Arabia_ where Lawrence explains the "trick" in letting a match go out > against his fingers. (the trick is not to mind). But associating > pain > with love doesn't work with me and messes up my enjoyment of the books. > > I wonder what other turn-offs readers have similar to this, causing us > to > not like otherwise enjoyable books. > I agree. When it got to the pain/love thing I just tossed it. The world was very well constructed and the culture was interesting but otherwise...meh From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Dec 12 08:28:21 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:28:21 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <2897020E.5A4A5117.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 12/12/2004 11:02:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > James Griffin wrote: >> A polo shirt with a mini-jhereg at left breast pocket area >> would be Cool. (I think.) > > Trouble is, who will recognize what the animal is? > Professional authors who paint covers after presumably reading > the books create something that doesn't fit what I have read. > (They also have a clean-shaven Vlad). Fans argue about how > many legs they have when making beautiful 3-D depictions. > > Hey, it's Pip the Mini-Dragon!!! > > Our imaginations don't all create the same image. If we assume that the primary goal is to promote the books, I say we should look into getting permission to use the cover art. Yes, it shows Loiosh with more legs than the author intended, but that's the image associated with the books. --KG From J.Millen-99 at student.lboro.ac.uk Sun Dec 12 08:32:11 2004 From: J.Millen-99 at student.lboro.ac.uk (Jim Millen) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:32:11 -0000 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <75FC690E-4C57-11D9-8E2D-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000301c4e068$22556960$6f01a8c0@jimsnotebook> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] > Sent: 12 December 2004 16:04 > To: Dragaera ((E-mail)) > Subject: Re: Kushiel's Dart > > On Dec 12, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > My wife didn't have problems with either of these. Assassination is > > one > > thing. And even pain. I love the opening scene in the movie > > _Lawrence of > > Arabia_ where Lawrence explains the "trick" in letting a > match go out > > against his fingers. (the trick is not to mind). But associating > > pain > > with love doesn't work with me and messes up my enjoyment > of the books. I would point out that it's not associating pain with love, but rather with sexual desire. Phedre certainly doesn't love the vast majority of her patrons, and actively dislikes them in many cases, but her... peculiarity means that she enjoys the various activities nonetheless. This isn't just a point of pedantry - the distinction between love and lust becomes quite an important issue later in the series. > > I wonder what other turn-offs readers have similar to this, > causing us > > to > > not like otherwise enjoyable books. It is interesting what various people find distasteful. There was a scene in one of David Wingrove's Chung Kao(sp?) books of a sexual nature that made me give up the book in disgust, but I wasn't too keen on the world or writing anyway, so can't blame it entirely on that scene. Other than that I can't remember anything that's made me stop reading. Oh, maybe some Piers Anthony, but again that's not so much a disgust reaction but more general dissatisfaction with the quality of reading in general. Personally I didn't find the S&M stuff in Kushiel's Dart/Chosen/Avatar particularly off putting - perhaps this is because I can't really think of it in terms of reality? It's not something I can really relate to or appreciate in any way, so I tended to pretty much ignore it unless it directly involved the plot. I find reading "Teckla" to be more unpleasant than the Kushiel books, simply because I can imagine being in Vlad's situation (Well, without all the witchcraft and stuff, obviously!) but can't possibly imagine the same with Phedre. Which, all in all, I'm quite glad about. Oh, and I'm not at all implying that "Teckla" is a bad book, I don't think it is. It's just painful. > I agree. When it got to the pain/love thing I just tossed it. > The world > was very well constructed and the culture was interesting but > otherwise...meh The blatant S&M scenes are fewer in frequency later in the book and much less in the second book, if this is any encouragement to read further. Cheers, Jim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 05/12/2004 From warbi at warbi.net Sun Dec 12 10:02:12 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:02:12 -0800 Subject: Kushiel's Dart References: <000401c4e063$4f8002b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <010701c4e074$b6145330$7050b041@warbi> I don't have any problems with sadomaschism or any other consensual acts being described in a book. What will turn me off from a book faster than nothing is the archetypal "Good vs Evil" especially if done sanctimoniously. After that, the plethora of vampire books and Norman Mailer. warbi From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Dec 12 10:12:00 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:12:00 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: (Philip Hart's message of "Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:51:13 -0800 (PST)") References: <142.3ae4b3bd.2eed47a6@aol.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> Today's cooking extract is from Emperor Tortaalik I in Dragaera City. >> >> "His Majesty looked down at his plate, where a few lonely fish >> bones were floating in a sea of butter and lemon. He wiped his >> lips on his sleeve" >> >> Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eighth, page 100 > AFB, but the booksearch yields: > > "a few lonely fish bones were floating (belly up, perhaps) in a sea of > butter and lemon. He then wiped his lips on his sleeve..." > > I wonder if the scanner added a few garnishes... At "belly up" I'm > suddenly in Gormenghast. Some of the books in booksearch are the submission manuscript, rather than a scan of the published version. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 12 10:25:58 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:25:58 +0000 Subject: Kushiel's Dart Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" Subject: Kushiel's Dart Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:57:40 -0700 I read the following in Steve's Weblog: Sun Oct 3rd, 2004 6:25 PM I've just read _Kushiel's Dart_ by Jacqueline Carey. It's the first fantasy novel by someone I didn't know that has excited me in longer than I care to remember. There is a cultural and religious background that is wonderfully done--that in itself being pretty rare--and runs in and out of the plot bouncing off it in odd ways. The center of the story is palace intrigue, and I can't think of it ever being done better since Dumas. I could go on at some length, but skip that. Just read it. ========================================== So I am reading it. I read a couple of chapters and then get to masochism and sadism and have to stop. I just don't enjoy that stuff. I put the book aside and read something quick and easy such as _Life of Pi_, then read another chapter or two until I get uncomfortable again. I had to give up reading Diane Mott Davidson in the first book when I read how she would go back to her first husband who purposefully broke her knuckles with a hammer. I did read a review that in her latest book, her ex is the victim. My wife didn't have problems with either of these. Assassination is one thing. And even pain. I love the opening scene in the movie _Lawrence of Arabia_ where Lawrence explains the "trick" in letting a match go out against his fingers. (the trick is not to mind). But associating pain with love doesn't work with me and messes up my enjoyment of the books. I wonder what other turn-offs readers have similar to this, causing us to not like otherwise enjoyable books. **************************** I find I am unable to stop reading a book once started. I may put it down for a while, or start another and read it concurrently to offset the first, but I will eventually read the whole thing. I don't care for novels that fall to close to my occupation, or any of my former lines of work, as I tend to pick out the the errors the author made rather than enjoying the story. Stories that show extreme sadism or cruelty for no apparent reason leave me cold as well. Jeff G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Sun Dec 12 11:37:33 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:37:33 EST Subject: swag ideas Message-ID: <104.5653d5c4.2eedf7fd@aol.com> "How many Yendi does it take to shapen a sword?" "Three. One to sharpen the sword, and one to confuse the issue." And other such "How many____ does it take...?" -Crystal ^..^ From mr1 at rcosta.com Sun Dec 12 16:38:59 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:38:59 -0500 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <000401c4e063$4f8002b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <41BC9E53.1375.24CB534B@localhost> On 12 Dec 2004 at 8:57, Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder what other turn-offs readers have similar to this, causing us to > not like otherwise enjoyable books. > > I had trouble with Heinlein's seeming obsession with incest (generalizing >from two books - one more than is needed on this list) - it didn't stop me >from reading the books, but I was creeped out with Lazarus Long's sleeping with his mother. I did stop reading Piers Anthony after the book with the pedophile (not one of the Xanth novels). That was a combination of distaste for the subject matter and very poor writing. I enjoyed the Kushiel books. Some of the descriptions were...uncomfortable, but I've also read descriptions of murders and autopsys that made me feel the same way. M mr1 at rcosta.comMichele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From rct9911 at comcast.net Sun Dec 12 18:47:05 2004 From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:47:05 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <20041212071346.9109216D2AC@pippin.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <008101c4e0be$08c7dae0$6901a8c0@BOB> >I like the idea of a shirt that has the Phoenix Guards crest on the front > and on the back it just says "SECURITY" or something cleverer than I can > come up with - definitely not "POLICE". > That's a good idea - how about "NOT POLICE" ? From hans117 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 19:01:32 2004 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:01:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: creative writing Message-ID: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Forgive me for something extremely off topic but Steve?s web log got me thinking. I am a high school senior and as the fate of all such people I am stuck with the perilous question of where to go to college. I finished my applications on Friday. As I completed the application process, it occurred to me that I?ve been thinking far too much, about what is practical than what I will enjoy. I stumbled across Brust in 3rd grade and since then have had a deep love for reading and later writing fantasy. I however, don?t have the guts to write professionally. I figure that many people on this list have taken creative writing courses. Were these courses worthwhile? Where are the best creative writing programs? If I was confident that I would get something out of these classes except for enjoyment, I might be able to think more about doing something I love rather than doing something for financial motives. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com Sun Dec 12 19:24:43 2004 From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:24:43 -0600 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041213032433.1DAAB175111@merry.dreamhost.com> >I might be able to think more about doing something I love rather than >doing something for financial motives. While I can't answer your question what I can say is not pursuing what you love and instead pursuing money will not make you happy in the long run. Also you will learn that if you become good at something - very good - you *will* get paid for it. Best to choose the something you really want to do instead of the something that'll make you more money now - unless you've got more than your own mouth to feed. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Dec 12 14:40:05 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:40:05 -0800 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1102891205.2393.136.camel@localhost> I have no idea how worthwhile creative writing classes are; my guess it depends as much on the student and whether he can learn that way as it does onthe class. That said, I'm told that Grinell (sp?) College in Iowa has good creative writing classes, as does the University of Iowa (which also has Joe Haldeman, unless I'm mistaken). If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't take creative writing in college (which I didn't anyway), but I would take a whole lot of history. But that's just me. I certainly applaud your desire to do something you love, rather than spending your time at college concentrating on money. It's always possible to make a living (unless you happen to be a total space-case, like me) one way or another. Passion should be nurtured, even if it's only indulged in on weekends and evenings. Best of luck to you. On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 19:01, Hans Schweitzer wrote: > Forgive me for something extremely off topic but Steves web log got me thinking. > > I am a high school senior and as the fate of all such people I am stuck with the perilous question of where to go to college. I finished my applications on Friday. As I completed the application process, it occurred to me that Ive been thinking far too much, about what is practical than what I will enjoy. I stumbled across Brust in 3rd grade and since then have had a deep love for reading and later writing fantasy. I however, dont have the guts to write professionally. I figure that many people on this list have taken creative writing courses. Were these courses worthwhile? Where are the best creative writing programs? If I was confident that I would get something out of these classes except for enjoyment, I might be able to think more about doing something I love rather than doing something for financial motives. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! What will yours do? From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Dec 12 20:30:56 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:30:56 EST Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1e8.303e2647.2eee7500@aol.com> Today's magic lesson is from the sorceress and Dragon Aliera e'Kieron and The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Sethra Lavode on performing a sorcery (Orb before the Interregnum) autopsy. '"Very well, said Aliera. "This intendant was killed by the simplest of sorceries; that is, the major vessel of his heart was suddenly constricted, causing a hemorrhage which resulted in a death that was almost instantaneous. As the simplest of spells killed him, so the simplest of spells would have protected him, and there is no evidence of concealment, from which I must conclude that he had no understanding of sorcery." "Very well," said Sethra. "This man--" "Gyorg Lavode," said Khaavren and Sethra together. "Yes. Although he was killed by a knife wound, there can be no doubt a spell was placed upon him to ensure he wouldn't awaken first. Look--" she picked up the glass rod she had been holding when they entered and handed it to Sethra. "You perceive the yellow coloring at the end? This was the result of casting the Mirror of Sandbourne above his eyes." "It is," said Sethra, "only the faintest of yellow." "He died more than a day ago," said Aliera. "And yet," said Sethra, "why did not the rod become green, which is how the Mirror ought to have responded to a change in the mind's energies?" "It is exactly this upon which I was musing when you entered," said Aliera. "My suspicion--" "You have, then a suspicion?" "Very much so." "Then I should be glad to hear it." "This is it, then: The green appears, as you know, from a combination of the yellow, which indicates external energy having disrupted the workings of the mind, and blue, which is how the Mirror of Sandbourne signals the presence of sorcery invading the sanctity of the mind--or, at any rate, the brain. Yet if, instead of having been directed at the mind, the spell was placed about the area, the Mirror would not detect an influence in the mind, but only sorcery around it." "Well," said Sethra. "There is some justice in what you say." "And yet," said Aliera, "I should be glad to know where there is a spell of sufficient subtlety to penetrate the Amulet of Covering that Gyorg wore, yet powerful enough to work on the area in which he rested-- all, be it understood, without waking him up before putting him to sleep." "That is easily answered. Do you perceive that, as I cast the Holding of Bren upon this instrument, the yellow dissolves, and flows >from one end to the other?" "Well, yes, but what does it mean?" "It means that the energies of the sorcery were not closely directed, but were dispersing even before the spell was cast." "Which means?" "It can only mean that the spell had been prepared some hours or days before it was cast." "In other words," said Aliera, "the spell was placed in an amulet or a wand, and released, perhaps by someone with no knowledge of sorcery at all." "That is correct." "The Jhereg," said Aliera. "That is most likely," said Sethra. "But, if it is the Jhereg," said Aliera, "there ought to be about the body the marks of the sorcerous waves--the patterns of energy-- which are so different from those left by the sorceries of the Athyra, the Dzur, or the Dragons." "Indeed. Have you noticed them?" "In fact," said Aliera, "I have not looked." "Then let us do so," said Sethra. "I would recommend the Norbrook Threepass Test." "Perhaps," said Aliera. "And yet, it has been more than a day. Perhaps we ought to attempt the Lorngrass Procedure at first, which has the advantage that, should it fail, it will not disturb the fields in any way." "Very well, then," said Sethra. "I agree to the Lorngrass Procedure. But in that case, at the same time, we ought to look for these wave markings upon the aura from Smaller's remains." "That should not be difficult," said Aliera, "provided we first prepare the area..." And the two sorceresses, forgetting both Khaavren and the duel they had all but agreed upon, proceeded upon a discussion that left Khaavren quite befuddled. He smiled, however, as he realized what had happened, or, rather, what would not happen, and, determining that he could be of no assistance to the two ladies, turned without another word and made his way back to the suite of rooms above, from which he was accustomed to carry out his duties.' Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eighth, page 113 to 116 From vaklam at comcast.net Sun Dec 12 20:32:31 2004 From: vaklam at comcast.net (Melissa Gay) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:32:31 -0600 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:01 PM -0800 12/12/04, Hans Schweitzer wrote: >Forgive me for something extremely off topic but Steve?s web log got me thinking. > >I am a high school senior and as the fate of all such people I am stuck with the perilous question of where to go to college. I finished my applications on Friday. As I completed the application process, it occurred to me that I?ve been thinking far too much, about what is practical than what I will enjoy. I stumbled across Brust in 3rd grade and since then have had a deep love for reading and later writing fantasy. I however, don?t have the guts to write professionally. I figure that many people on this list have taken creative writing courses. Were these courses worthwhile? Where are the best creative writing programs? If I was confident that I would get something out of these classes except for enjoyment, I might be able to think more about doing something I love rather than doing something for financial motives. Hi-- Melissa Gay here, longtime lurker. I must weigh in on this topic, because the short story is that I spent about ten years on a career path which I loathed before finally giving in and doing what I love. While I don't feel that time was utterly wasted, it does make me want to kick myself whenever think how much more advanced my skill level would be if I had concentrated that energy on doing what I truly love during all that time! The longer tale is that my former career path was leading me to a PhD in plant biology with a promising teaching career-- stability? Sure! The only problem was that what I was doing was making me miserable. It wasn't until I was 27 years old that I embraced the crazy notion that what I really wanted in life was to be a fantasy illustrator and do freelance work for roleplaying game companies. *Completely* unstable, un-lucrative in the extreme! I baffled all my professors and fellow GTA's when I told them I was leaving grad school to go paint fairies-- few of them even knew I drew; that's how compartmentalized I had let my life become. If my husband had not been so supportive of my dreams, I literally don't know if I'd be alive today, so miserable was I before my change of path. To top it all off, now that I've finally got a fledgeling freelance career started (7 months ago, to be exact!), I've got a small child, whom I spend the days taking care of, and I spend my nights working to meet my deadlines. Yet I've **never in my life been happier!!!** I believe that we can suppress that which we most need to make us happy for only so long before it rises up and stages a mutiny. Like Langston Hughes's "Dream Deferred," a person's need to create art doesn't "dry up like a raisin in the sun," but rather tends to explode. It has been my experience that one can achieve amazing goals through simply never giving up, never going away, and keeping on creating! Er, I believe I've wandered off the topic, so about the creative writing classes-- a thing to keep in mind is that college is busy, and you may find yourself with little or no time to practice your craft. One thing these classes will do is force you to practice. IMHO, YMMV. Melissa -- http://www.melissagay.com From sokerchick777 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 12 21:15:09 2004 From: sokerchick777 at yahoo.com (Sokerchick) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:15:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: creative Writing Message-ID: <20041213051509.69947.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> hmm... my only advice is go to a big school. LOL. I'm currently a sophmore in college, so it wasn't more than two years ago that i was looking at schools trying to decide what i wanted to do with my life. In the end i decided that while i too love to write creativly i faced two major problems. One i can't spell for crap, and while they do have spell check and the like it's sometimes so bad that even spell check can't figure out what i'm trying to get at. And second i sorely lack the talent to create my own stuff. Solution: Go to a big school. I'm currently an Engineering student (following my talents and not necessicarily, theres that spelling thing again, my heart) But the upside of big schools. Lots and lots of gen eds. I'm taking some philosophy and lit classes. as well as looking into sculpture stuff. Big schools offer a lot in the way of choices. So don't pigeon hole yourself into one thing. Theres far worse things you can do than go into college as an "undecided". Trust me. I've had friends change majors after being Bio freshman year to English, and not much transfers and you end up a year behind. As an undecided you can take just about whatever you want, and get a feel for what you like. Hope it helps Katie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From fitzrose at msn.com Sun Dec 12 22:18:53 2004 From: fitzrose at msn.com (Rosemary Fitzsimons) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:18:53 -0500 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Okay, I'm going to delurk to try to give what help I can. As a college senior, here's my take on the whole thing: They won't let you take only creative writing courses anyway. You aren't going to blow your chances at any career but writing fantasy if you take creative writing - most schools require students to take courses in a variety of subjects, and this is good thing. As a writer, maybe a few history or science classes will give you just the inspiration you need. So, by the same token, even if you do find a nonwriting career that you really love - say, being an architect - it won't do you any harm to be an architect with some experience writing fiction! Maybe writing is what you'll want to do with your life, or maybe you'll find something else. You really have nothing to lose by giving it a shot and taking a class or two. Even if all you get out of those courses is enjoyment, that may actually help your academic career. There are few college experiences worse than an entire semester of dreary classes. It can be really depressing and make you lose interest in school. Taking a class you love is rarely a waste of time. Writing courses can, sadly, on some occasions be flaky and annoying since writing is such a personal art and very hard to teach. The best advice I can give you on actual courses themselves is: Ask other kids who have taken writing classes what classes they've taken and how they liked them. It can be a real life saver. Good luck! Kate Fitzsimons >From: Hans Schweitzer >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: creative writing >Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:01:32 -0800 (PST) > > >Forgive me for something extremely off topic but Steve?s web log got me >thinking. > >I am a high school senior and as the fate of all such people I am stuck >with the perilous question of where to go to college. I finished my >applications on Friday. As I completed the application process, it >occurred to me that I?ve been thinking far too much, about what is >practical than what I will enjoy. I stumbled across Brust in 3rd grade and >since then have had a deep love for reading and later writing fantasy. I >however, don?t have the guts to write professionally. I figure that many >people on this list have taken creative writing courses. Were these >courses worthwhile? Where are the best creative writing programs? If I >was confident that I would get something out of these classes except for >enjoyment, I might be able to think more about doing something I love >rather than doing something for financial motives. > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From johne.cook at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 22:21:20 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:21:20 -0600 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:01:32 -0800 (PST), Hans Schweitzer wrote: > I figure that many people on this list have taken creative writing courses. I've been reading Steven King's book _On Writing_. He pretty says to read like crazy and write like mad. I havne't taken any creative writing classes but I've gone to school on my favorite authors and have surrounded myself with readers / writers. Then I started setting goals that were just a little outside my current comfort level and doing whatever it takes to stretch and grow. Everybody's path is just a little different. Maybe courses are what you need, and maybe they aren't. In the meantime, you can read and write and see what comes of it. Best wishes. Now's a great time to be getting started. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From carpovita at earthlink.net Mon Dec 13 00:15:55 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:15:55 -0700 Subject: creative writing References: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002e01c4e0eb$f8a4c1e0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Hi! I'm a bit surprised to have not seen this spelled out but.... A LOT of fantasy writers also teach college... I'm not saying that a lot of the good ones do, but perhaps with a little background work of your own you might find someone who you like to read who is currently teaching. The other thing you'll want to do, if fantasy is your passion, is see if you can feel out the Department and determine what they think of Fantasy writing... I have found, in talking with Fantasy writer/professors I know, that they are generally seen as hacks by their peers because they write "unimportant and unintelectual tripe". Even if you do find a school that has a couple of professors that have written some decent Fantasy or Sci-Fi, make sure the rest of the department doesn't disdain them, and by association any student with such lit forms as their goal. Good Luck From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Dec 13 01:07:17 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:07:17 -0600 Subject: creative Writing In-Reply-To: <20041213051509.69947.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> (sokerchick777@yahoo.com's message of "Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:15:09 -0800 (PST)") References: <20041213051509.69947.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sokerchick writes: > hmm... my only advice is go to a big school. LOL. I'm currently a > sophmore in college, so it wasn't more than two years ago that i was > looking at schools trying to decide what i wanted to do with my > life. In the end i decided that while i too love to write creativly > i faced two major problems. One i can't spell for crap, and while > they do have spell check and the like it's sometimes so bad that > even spell check can't figure out what i'm trying to get at. And > second i sorely lack the talent to create my own stuff. > > Solution: Go to a big school. I'm currently an Engineering student > (following my talents and not necessicarily, theres that spelling > thing again, my heart) But the upside of big schools. Lots and lots > of gen eds. I'm taking some philosophy and lit classes. as well as > looking into sculpture stuff. Big schools offer a lot in the way of > choices. So don't pigeon hole yourself into one thing. Theres far > worse things you can do than go into college as an > "undecided". Trust me. I've had friends change majors after being > Bio freshman year to English, and not much transfers and you end up > a year behind. As an undecided you can take just about whatever you > want, and get a feel for what you like. I, on the other hand, would suggest that people should avoid big schools for undergraduate work. Unless you're set on a career track involving graduate school, and have the kind of drive and background that can have you taking graduate courses and starting to meet real movers and shakers in your field, you'll get a much better education at a small school (and even if you do have that drive, you may *still* get a better and broader education at a good small college). In particular, any school where undergraduate courses are largely taught by "teaching assistants", that is, graduate students teaching their first few courses has some severe problems to overcome. Small colleges offer a lot of variety too -- from art to art history to literature to history to social sciences to mathematics to real sciences to philosophy to moderna and ancient languages to foreign or english literature. And generally *much* better teaching -- better teachers *and* smaller classes at the same time. What they don't offer is vocational programs. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 13 05:01:13 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:01:13 -0700 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c4e113$d3e142c0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Some people get frustrated when they take creative writing courses and are marked down for being creative their way - or who disagree with the teacher. It's very important to have a mindset that gets past this. If the instructor is an idiot - learn to write to that idiot. Being able to write in a bunch of different ways doesn't hurt. You won't forget how to be creative your way. (keep writing for yourself as well). From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Dec 13 05:55:46 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:55:46 -0500 Subject: creative Writing In-Reply-To: References: <20041213051509.69947.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041213135546.GB9044@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Dec 13, 2004 at 03:07:17AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > I, on the other hand, would suggest that people should avoid big > schools for undergraduate work. Unless you're set on a career track > involving graduate school . . . I'll second that. Most large schools treat undergrads like cattle, especially for the first two years. I cite as experience my student tenure at the University of Michigan (from which I graduated) and the University of Southern California (from which I didn't) and, between those two, Palomar Jr. College -- which repaired the damage done by USC and taught me to call an asshole 'Dr. Asshole' if needed. I'd have been much better off at a Grinell if I'd only known it existed. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Dec 13 06:26:49 2004 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:26:49 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <16828.30800.796669.310077@gw.dd-b.net> References: <34438B06.3AF8FF78.00048EA6@aol.com> <41BC738B.1050202@comcast.net> <16828.30800.796669.310077@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <41BDA6A9.7030706@comcast.net> Missed that part of the discussion--I often can't read all my mail. I would not care to buy a suboptimal or cheap-looking product. I don't see any reason why a premium producer would not be delighted to license Dragaera merchandise. Mia David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Mia McDavid writes on 12 December 2004 at 10:36:27 -0600 > > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > >All I see in the selection is white, natural, and a couple of fairly > > >pastel colors -- green, pink, maybe a yellow. > > > > > >There are additional products available to premium shops, but. > > > > But what??? > >But $70/year, or some such, as discussed earlier. > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Dec 13 07:01:54 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:01:54 -0500 Subject: creative writing Message-ID: <647AF28B.4E2D9119.00184D6D@aol.com> If you really want to go to school for writting, go for it! i didn't like my college writting class. We had to read a dumb book called _Island_ by Adolus Huxley (?sp) and then write what we thought about it. The best thing you can get from writting classes is writting grammer. My teacher looked like he was going to kill himself any day and I really didn't like the class as a whole. I hated college. I quit. I went back to school though because I love learning. I became a medical assistant. I don't make a crap load of money, but I make enough and I love my job. I too hope to write a novel someday, but I seriously think i have adult ADD because i get one of two chapters done and don't finish. I started, at the least, 6 books! So do what you want, Kid ;o). That's just the opinion of a disgrunted wanna-be writter. Best of luck to you! -Crystal ^..^ Forgive me for something extremely off topic but Steve?s web log got me thinking. I am a high school senior and as the fate of all such people I am stuck with the perilous question of where to go to college. I finished my applications on Friday. As I completed the application process, it occurred to me that I?ve been thinking far too much, about what is practical than what I will enjoy. I stumbled across Brust in 3rd grade and since then have had a deep love for reading and later writing fantasy. I however, don?t have the guts to write professionally. I figure that many people on this list have taken creative writing courses. Were these courses worthwhile? Where are the best creative writing programs? If I was confident that I would get something out of these classes except for enjoyment, I might be able to think more about doing something I love rather than doing something for financial motives. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 13 07:15:35 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:15:35 -0500 Subject: creative Writing In-Reply-To: References: <20041213051509.69947.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41BDB217.6050901@earthlink.net> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Sokerchick writes: > > >>hmm... my only advice is go to a big school. LOL. I'm currently a >>sophmore in college, so it wasn't more than two years ago that i was >>looking at schools trying to decide what i wanted to do with my >>life. In the end i decided that while i too love to write creativly >>i faced two major problems. One i can't spell for crap, and while >>they do have spell check and the like it's sometimes so bad that >>even spell check can't figure out what i'm trying to get at. And >>second i sorely lack the talent to create my own stuff. >> >>Solution: Go to a big school. I'm currently an Engineering student >>(following my talents and not necessicarily, theres that spelling >>thing again, my heart) But the upside of big schools. Lots and lots >>of gen eds. I'm taking some philosophy and lit classes. as well as >>looking into sculpture stuff. Big schools offer a lot in the way of >>choices. So don't pigeon hole yourself into one thing. Theres far >>worse things you can do than go into college as an >>"undecided". Trust me. I've had friends change majors after being >>Bio freshman year to English, and not much transfers and you end up >>a year behind. As an undecided you can take just about whatever you >>want, and get a feel for what you like. >> >> > >I, on the other hand, would suggest that people should avoid big >schools for undergraduate work. Unless you're set on a career track >involving graduate school, and have the kind of drive and background >that can have you taking graduate courses and starting to meet real >movers and shakers in your field, you'll get a much better education >at a small school (and even if you do have that drive, you may *still* >get a better and broader education at a good small college). In >particular, any school where undergraduate courses are largely taught >by "teaching assistants", that is, graduate students teaching their >first few courses has some severe problems to overcome. > >Small colleges offer a lot of variety too -- from art to art history >to literature to history to social sciences to mathematics to real >sciences to philosophy to moderna and ancient languages to foreign or >english literature. And generally *much* better teaching -- better >teachers *and* smaller classes at the same time. What they don't >offer is vocational programs. > > I agree with DDB; small schools may be more expensive, but unless your TAs are top-notch (good luck with that), you get a better education. I went to Boston College and only had a TA for my chemistry lab. She was a good TA, too. I took a Philosophy of Tolkien course that let me read the Hobbit, LOTR, and the Silmarillion for credit, among other Tolkien works. Wesleyan seems like a good choice for creative-minded folks; they seem to be very receptive to people who want to embrace creativity. They also require your taking more than just arts classes. Of course, if you decide you want to be an engineer, you'd have a hard time taking courses for that at either BC or Wesleyan (I don't know about Wesleyan, but BC does have an excellent business school as well as excellent science departments in addition to its liberal arts). Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From abcmm at att.net Mon Dec 13 08:53:52 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:53:52 +0000 Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <121320041653.29058.41BDC91F0005130400007182216028074803030C0D0E@att.net> Line of shirts with an Artist's rendering of each creature associated with each house. ideally each shirt in the primary color of the house depicted. This could also be done on Coffee Mugs, Mouse Pads...Et All... Art could be done in Logo theme or using the typical "Boris" look fantasy images... Also Shirt with the poem of the cycle on back. Upscale swag could include Noble Collection's Sword replicas of the more famous weapons... Iceflame, God Slayer, Blackwand.... -Berni -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: Gaertk at aol.com To: dd-b at dd-b.net ("David Dyer-Bennet"), dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 21:02:54 +0000 In a message dated 12/9/2004 9:47:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "David Dyer-Bennet" writes: > Okay, I'm starting to post ideas as I see them or think of > them to a not-very-secret web page at > . > > Brainstorm first -- kick in ideas, don't argue against > anything. Hoping to find those obvious winning ideas that > make the decision phase so easy! "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] "I truly loathe and despise money and all things associated with it, and I will continue to do so until I'm making enough so I don't have to worry about it." [gold on green on most expensive looking shirt] quote verified: 76.5% in _Issola_ chapter 10 "If all you've got's a stick, everything looks like a kneecap." And the knife/breeze metaphor is the first paragraph of the prologue of _Jhereg_. The onion one is the first couple pages of the first chapter of _Yendi_. --KG From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Mon Dec 13 09:41:16 2004 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:41:16 -0500 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <1102891205.2393.136.camel@localhost> References: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20041213122118.0191c4a0@camail2.harvard.edu> At 02:40 PM 12/12/2004 -0800, Steve Brust wrote: >If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't take creative writing in >college (which I didn't anyway), but I would take a whole lot of >history. But that's just me. In addition to all the fun that comes from learning interesting tidbits about history, which can always be reused in creative writing, I'd also recommend looking at schools with good history programs. History classes won't teach you how to write dialogue, develop characters, or build dramatic structure, but they will get you used to pumping out 20 page papers like clockwork. Since many writers say that the only way to learn how to write well is to do a lot of writing, history classes make for an excellent starting point, as well as forcing you to learn how to write clearly and with well thought out arguments (a skill that will prove useful in many career paths). There are lots of schools with good history programs, but I'll throw in a plug for my alma mater, Brandeis University. In addition to having one of the top ranked American History programs, Brandeis also has an excellent Medieval and Renaissance studies program (which can be appealing to aspiring fantasy writers). Charley Sumner Brandeis '91 "In my fantasy world, we have pie." Satchel Pooch from Get Fuzzy From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Dec 13 09:53:32 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:53:32 -0500 Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <20041213030133.64323.qmail@web13827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41BD90CC.4327.BD2CFE@localhost> On 12 Dec 2004 at 19:01, Hans Schweitzer wrote I figure that many people > on this list have taken creative writing courses. Were these courses > worthwhile? Where are the best creative writing programs? If I was > confident that I would get something out of these classes except for > enjoyment, I might be able to think more abo > ut doing something I love rather than doing something for financial > motives. > I took a few writing classes in college and aside from the fact that I was forced to produce at least one story a week - the best thing about it was the critiquing. I learned to take Criticism from people I admired and people I loathed. I also learned to critique the work, and not the author. I think that, if you're going to end up a writer, any classes you take, any new experience, will help you. I took mostly science classes, some art classes, and I worked in the school library. All those, together and individually, shaped who I am and how I write. So, my advice is - don't limit yourself. And good luck! M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 11:52:07 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:52:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <00f401c4df0a$90af2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20041213195207.64183.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Schultz wrote: > The "knife between the > shoulderblades" quote is a good example, because Tolkein's original is > reasonably well-known, especially after the popularity of the films. (Make that "Tolk{ie}n"; rhymes with "scene" not "sign".) What original? mark by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 12:06:47 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041208220952.73628.qmail@web52002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041213200647.54743.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- Shannon Wimberly wrote: > An aside: My gaming merchandizer husband tells me that in the promotional > sense, swag is actually an acronym. It's short for (S)hit (W)e (A)ll (G)et. Unlikely. That's a popular kind of made-up etymology, like For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge and Port Out, Starboard Home (both false). OK, now I have checked the Oxford English Dictionary online. Here's their definition #9 for the noun "swag": >>>>> 9. A thief's plunder or booty; gen. a quantity of money or goods unlawfully acquired, gains dishonestly made. slang. 1794 Sessions Papers Central Criminal Court Jan. 341/1 There are very few gentlemen here on the jury but what know what a swag is; the meaning is, a bundle of clothes that are stolen from any place. 1812 J. H. VAUX Flash Dict. s.v., The Swag is a term used in speaking of any booty you have lately obtained..except money. 1827 SCOTT Let. to Croker in Lockhart, I have been stealing from you, and..I send you a sample of the swag. 1838 DICKENS O. Twist xix, ?It's all arranged about bringing off the swag, is it?? asked the Jew. 1862 CALVERLEY Charades VI. v. in Verses & Transl. (ed. 2) 95 While one hope lingers, the cracksman's fingers Drop not his hard-earned ?swag?. 1891 Newcastle Daily Jrnl. 18 Mar. 5/3 This genial gentleman went off to America with the swag. <<<<< I think that pretty much puts the kibosh on that supposed origin. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 12:14:03 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:14:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <121320041653.29058.41BDC91F0005130400007182216028074803030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: <20041213201403.68844.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] an empty frame -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Dec 13 13:13:24 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:13:24 -0800 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041213195207.64183.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <218201c4e158$9509b6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > (Make that "Tolk{ie}n"; rhymes with "scene" not "sign".) I generally figure I've got a 50% chance of getting it right. :P > > What original? > This is unlikely to be a word-for-word quote, but close enough for government work: "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards. They are subtle and quick to anger". (People generally like to stick a "for" in place of the first period but my memory is telling me it isn't actually written that way in the text. My memory is an exceedingly faulty thing, however...) Hence, Vlads opinion that "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style." I think that's a sentiment that even Gandalf would agree with. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Dec 13 13:13:28 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:13:28 +0100 Subject: Elvtarsok In-Reply-To: <20041213201403.68844.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To steal the context from Cracks and Shards: "elvtarsok": Noish-pa cannot think of the Dragaeran word he wants to describe Kelly's people, in relation to the murdered Franz [Tek52]: [Noish-pa:] "Well, his people, his -- what is the word? Elvtarsok?" [Vlad:] "Friends? Associates?" Noish-pa is never at a loss for words, in any sense. Is Brust doing something with the first syllable's resemblance to "elves"? I checked an online Hungarian-English dictionary, and found these two suspects: elvt?rs comrade and t?rsak companions Regards /mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/ From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Dec 13 13:25:07 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:25:07 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 4:13 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > This is unlikely to be a word-for-word quote, but close enough for > government work: > > "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards. They are subtle and quick to > anger". > > (People generally like to stick a "for" in place of the first period but > my > memory is telling me it isn't actually written that way in the text. My > memory is an exceedingly faulty thing, however...) > > Hence, Vlads opinion that "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife > between > the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style." I think that's a > sentiment that even Gandalf would agree with. I agree, but I suspect Gandalf might think of it more in terms of hobbits in volcanoes rather than knives between shoulderblades. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 13 13:47:16 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:47:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <26054883.1102974437403.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: Grady Brandt Sent: Dec 13, 2004 4:25 PM To: 'Scott Schultz' , dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 4:13 PM > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > > > This is unlikely to be a word-for-word quote, but close enough for > > government work: > > > > "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards. They are subtle and quick to > > anger". > > > > (People generally like to stick a "for" in place of the first period but > > my > > memory is telling me it isn't actually written that way in the text. My > > memory is an exceedingly faulty thing, however...) > > > > Hence, Vlads opinion that "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife > > between > > the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style." I think that's a > > sentiment that even Gandalf would agree with. > > > I agree, but I suspect Gandalf might think of it more in terms of hobbits > in volcanoes rather than knives between shoulderblades. No matter how badass the Nazgul, being ganged-up-on by a Hobbit and a woman will seriously cramp your style? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 13 14:16:08 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:16:08 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <26054883.1102974437403.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Marquez" To: Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Grady Brandt > Sent: Dec 13, 2004 4:25 PM > To: 'Scott Schultz' , dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 4:13 PM > > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > > Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > > > > > This is unlikely to be a word-for-word quote, but close enough for > > > government work: > > > > > > "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards. They are subtle and quick to > > > anger". > > > > > > (People generally like to stick a "for" in place of the first period but > > > my > > > memory is telling me it isn't actually written that way in the text. My > > > memory is an exceedingly faulty thing, however...) > > > > > > Hence, Vlads opinion that "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife > > > between > > > the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style." I think that's a > > > sentiment that even Gandalf would agree with. > > > > > > I agree, but I suspect Gandalf might think of it more in terms of hobbits > > in volcanoes rather than knives between shoulderblades. > > No matter how badass the Nazgul, being ganged-up-on by a Hobbit and a woman will seriously cramp your style? > > Jose > > -- > Jose Marquez > jhereg69 at earthlink.net > http://www.hackwater.com > Irregardles of the power of the ring, having a phlange bitten of by a schizophrenic midget is bound to discombobulate your composure? Jeff G. From shannon3d at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 14:53:43 2004 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:53:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041213200647.54743.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041213225344.1923.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> See, now I just feel like getting all stubborn and onery about it. If I were to actually be that way, I'd say something like, "Who cares and the OE defined origins, I'm sticking with my definition because I think it's funnier. Besides who decided the OE was 'the expert.'" [insert silly hand gesture here] "Pshaw!" But then, maybe stubborn and onery isn't the way to go in this case. Cheers, Shannon "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: --- Shannon Wimberly wrote: > An aside: My gaming merchandizer husband tells me that in the promotional > sense, swag is actually an acronym. It's short for (S)hit (W)e (A)ll (G)et. Unlikely. That's a popular kind of made-up etymology, like For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge and Port Out, Starboard Home (both false). OK, now I have checked the Oxford English Dictionary online. Here's their definition #9 for the noun "swag": >>>>> 9. A thief's plunder or booty; gen. a quantity of money or goods unlawfully acquired, gains dishonestly made. slang. 1794 Sessions Papers Central Criminal Court Jan. 341/1 There are very few gentlemen here on the jury but what know what a swag is; the meaning is, a bundle of clothes that are stolen from any place. 1812 J. H. VAUX Flash Dict. s.v., The Swag is a term used in speaking of any booty you have lately obtained..except money. 1827 SCOTT Let. to Croker in Lockhart, I have been stealing from you, and..I send you a sample of the swag. 1838 DICKENS O. Twist xix, ?It's all arranged about bringing off the swag, is it?? asked the Jew. 1862 CALVERLEY Charades VI. v. in Verses & Transl. (ed. 2) 95 While one hope lingers, the cracksman's fingers Drop not his hard-earned ?swag?. 1891 Newcastle Daily Jrnl. 18 Mar. 5/3 This genial gentleman went off to America with the swag. <<<<< I think that pretty much puts the kibosh on that supposed origin. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 13 15:49:04 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:49:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041213201403.68844.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041213201403.68844.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > > > "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] > > an empty frame For the more violent-minded among us, a blood-spattered room in a Pollockian style might be apropos. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Dec 13 16:02:21 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:02:21 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <233d01c4e170$2f21fd80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > > > > > "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] > > Actually, I'd have to say that this falls under the "so obscure as to be meaningless" category. A person viewing this quote would scratch his head and say "You're not a painter? So, what?" Heck, I'm a relatively well-read Brust fan and I myself don't get what that quote is referring to. (Maybe something in Sethra Lavode, which I haven't read yet?) From rct9911 at comcast.net Mon Dec 13 16:56:56 2004 From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:56:56 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <20041212071346.9109216D2AC@pippin.dreamhost.com> <008101c4e0be$08c7dae0$6901a8c0@BOB> <20041213060155.GX6060@mail> Message-ID: <004901c4e177$d1d68030$6901a8c0@BOB> >> >> >> >I like the idea of a shirt that has the Phoenix Guards crest on the >> >front >> >and on the back it just says "SECURITY" or something cleverer than I can >> >come up with - definitely not "POLICE". >> >> That's a good idea - how about "NOT POLICE" ? > > Very risky. You could be accused of impersonating an officer - imagine > that you're turned such that the NOT isn't readable... Actually, probably not. I'm pretty sure that owning a T-shirt with the word "POLICE" on it is not sufficient to have you taken in on impersonation charges. Police generally wear uniforms, badges and such, to let you know that they are, in fact, police. :) -Rebecca From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 19:31:42 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:31:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: creative writing In-Reply-To: <647AF28B.4E2D9119.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041214033142.88113.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > If you really want to go to school for writting, go for it! i didn't like my > college writting class. We had to read a dumb book called _Island_ by Adolus > Huxley (?sp) and then write what we thought about it. The best thing you can > get from writting classes is writting grammer. My teacher looked like he was > going to kill himself any day and I really didn't like the class as a whole. > I hated college. I quit. I went back to school though because I love > learning. I became a medical assistant. I don't make a crap load of money, > but I make enough and I love my job. I too hope to write a novel someday, but > I seriously think i have adult ADD because i get one of two chapters done and > don't finish. I started, at the least, 6 books! So do what you want, Kid ;o). > That's just the opinion of a disgrunted wanna-be writter. Don't neglect the mechanics. Spelling (never trust a spell-chucker [sic] to do it all, or to do it right), grammar, and so on. I have had some otherwise good reading experiences ruined by bad grammar and misspelled words on every page. dr. whom, consulting linguist, grammarian, orthoepist, and philological busybody aka mark mandel (by hand) http://cracksandshards.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From abcmm at att.net Tue Dec 14 07:27:31 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:27:31 +0000 Subject: FW: RE: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <121420041527.9097.41BF0662000CBADE00002389216037596403030C0D0E@att.net> I am not sure what the author of this response was trying to say... It looks like it was part of my suggestion for the line of shirts depicting the animal of each house but I did not write this quote. I think this is someone saying they don't like my idea because they don't paint.... But again I am not sure.... Confused as well, Berni -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Subject: RE: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:01:43 +0000 > > --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > > > > > "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] > > Actually, I'd have to say that this falls under the "so obscure as to be meaningless" category. A person viewing this quote would scratch his head and say "You're not a painter? So, what?" Heck, I'm a relatively well-read Brust fan and I myself don't get what that quote is referring to. (Maybe something in Sethra Lavode, which I haven't read yet?) From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com Tue Dec 14 07:56:18 2004 From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:56:18 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <121420041527.9097.41BF0662000CBADE00002389216037596403030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: <20041214155604.C870F17528F@merry.dreamhost.com> If Steve's quotables are fair game here, I ought to think it'd be neato to have a bumper sticker that says: War is Bad. Peace is good. Or one sticker for each sentence, if you don't understand at all how this is connected I'd say look here: http://dreamcafe.com/rose.html I'd further suggest if you have further interest (track nine, I think) titled of all strange things "War is Bad". - Angelo From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 14 07:56:58 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:56:58 -0500 Subject: creative writing Message-ID: <1E1E43AF.18CD756D.00184D6D@aol.com> <> Very true. I definately agree with you there. I sometimes hate reading my friends' work because they have the worst grammar I have ever seen. I don't bother with *little* spelling mistakes though 'cause i can't spell. But I totally know what you mean! -Crystal ^..^ From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 14 08:17:06 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:17:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <150DECDB.2B660529.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:16:23 -0500 Size: 933 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041214/cace4640/attachment.mht From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 14 08:25:55 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:25:55 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041214155604.C870F17528F@merry.dreamhost.com> References: <20041214155604.C870F17528F@merry.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:56:18 -0600, Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo wrote: > If Steve's quotables are fair game here, I ought to think it'd be neato > to > have a bumper sticker that says: War is Bad. Peace is good. Never use plastic when you can use wood. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 14 08:29:44 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:29:44 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <1DC7103A.35956E9C.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 12/14/2004 10:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo" writes: > >If Steve's quotables are fair game here, I ought to think it'd be neato to >have a bumper sticker that says: War is Bad. Peace is good. Or one sticker >for each sentence, if you don't understand at all how this is connected I'd >say look here: http://dreamcafe.com/rose.html I'd further suggest if you >have further interest (track nine, I think) titled of all strange things >"War is Bad". > >- Angelo > > > > I can't promise anything, but my future mother-in-law works for a label company and can get free stickers (even bumper I believe) and design them how ever I want. I am not sure exactly how many I can get (I want to say 200 for regular stickers). If this is something anyone would be interested in, let me know and we can vote on a quote or two from the swag idea list. I will let everyone know exactly if I can do this. We've done it before and haven't in a while. -Crystal ^..^ From casey at the-bat.net Tue Dec 14 09:10:52 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:10:52 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howard Brazee wrote: >Never use plastic when you can use wood. Mileage varies. I'm building a deck to replace a rotten porch on my house. Rather than using regular wood decking, I'm using a composite material made >from roughly equal parts recycled plastic bags and saw dust. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Dec 14 09:30:05 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:30:05 -0500 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: > From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at the-bat.net] > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:11 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > > Howard Brazee wrote: > >Never use plastic when you can use wood. > > Mileage varies. I'm building a deck to replace a rotten porch on my house. > Rather than using regular wood decking, I'm using a composite material > made > from roughly equal parts recycled plastic bags and saw dust. I have to question whether it's better to encourage the lumber industry in cutting down all our forests, or to assist the plastics industry in expanding our landfills. While lumber is a theoretically renewing resource, I'm not sure it can keep pace with demand. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 14 09:32:29 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:32:29 -0700 Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas References: <121420041527.9097.41BF0662000CBADE00002389216037596403030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:27 AM Subject: FW: RE: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > I am not sure what the author of this response was trying to say... It looks like it was part of my suggestion for the line of shirts depicting the animal of each house but I did not write this quote. > > I think this is someone saying they don't like my idea because they don't paint.... > > But again I am not sure.... > > Confused as well, > > Berni > > > -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- > From: "Scott Schultz" > To: > Subject: RE: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:01:43 +0000 > > > > > > --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > > > > > > > "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] > > > > > > Actually, I'd have to say that this falls under the "so obscure as to be > meaningless" category. A person viewing this quote would scratch his head > and say "You're not a painter? So, what?" > > Heck, I'm a relatively well-read Brust fan and I myself don't get what that > quote is referring to. > > (Maybe something in Sethra Lavode, which I haven't read yet?) Nope, from the Phoenix Guards. Near the end. It's the part with two girls in a jail cell. (sounds naughty when phrased that way, doesn't it? Jeff G From mklahn at mac.com Tue Dec 14 09:33:10 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:33:10 -0600 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15832831.1103045590653.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Tuesday, December 14, 2004, at 11:25AM, Grady Brandt wrote: >I have to question whether it's better to encourage the lumber industry in >cutting down all our forests, or to assist the plastics industry in >expanding our landfills. > >While lumber is a theoretically renewing resource, I'm not sure it can keep >pace with demand. The phrase (well, series of one-word fragmenets) "Reduce. Reuse. Recycle." is in that order for a specific reason. First, you should question whether you really need whatever it is that you're going to buy. If you can't get by without it, try to reuse lumber/plastic materials from salvage yards, old buildings, etc. Then, as a last resort, use new lumber, and probably try to find the "most renewable source" that you can buy that fits your needs. I'm pleased & impressed that the previous poster is using composite materials that would otherwise be waste products (sawdust & recycled plastics). I think that's a great way to go, as long as it fulfills his needs. I know that there are also bamboo composites for "hardwood" flooring, but I don't think they're yet making lumber from it, and it's very expensive. But, more renewable than lumber... Anyway, I've contributed enough to this divergence from the swag thread. :) Matthew From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 14 09:46:10 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:46:10 -0700 Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <15832831.1103045590653.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> References: <15832831.1103045590653.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:33:10 -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: > The phrase (well, series of one-word fragmenets) "Reduce. Reuse. > Recycle." is in that order for a specific reason. First, you should > question whether you really need whatever it is that you're going to > buy. If you can't get by without it, try to reuse lumber/plastic > materials from salvage yards, old buildings, etc. Then, as a last > resort, use new lumber, and probably try to find the "most renewable > source" that you can buy that fits your needs. The song quoted had Steve purposefully being simplistic. We all know (as do most of Steve's characters) that things aren't that simple. I'm one who wouldn't mind waiting for his next book a bit if he sweetened the wait with a new album. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Dec 14 13:06:14 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:06:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Elvtarsok In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041214210614.70522.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Martin Wohlert wrote: > To steal the context from Cracks and Shards: > > > "elvtarsok": Noish-pa cannot think of the Dragaeran word he wants to > describe Kelly's people, in relation to the murdered Franz [Tek52]: > [Noish-pa:] "Well, his people, his -- what is the word? Elvtarsok?" > [Vlad:] "Friends? Associates?" > Noish-pa is never at a loss for words, in any sense. He's sometimes at a loss for Dragaeran/English words. Doesn't he use the Fenarian/Hungarian word for "revolutionaries" at some point in _Teckla_ or probably _Phoenix_? "Forradalm?rtok" or something (thanks to for "forradalm?r"). > Is Brust doing > something with the first syllable's resemblance to "elves"? Hm, I hadn't noticed that. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 14 13:22:01 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:22:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Noted in part because the idea has a vaguely Vladiad feel: Some years ago, one Ethan Mollick created the I Can Eat Glass Project, which he described thus: The Project is based on the idea that people in a foreign country have an irresistable urge to try to say something in the indigenous tongue. In most cases, however, the best a person can do is "Where is the bathroom?" a phrase that marks them as a tourist. But, if one says "I can eat glass, it doesn't hurt me," you will be viewed as an insane native, and treated with dignity and respect. http://www.geocities.com/nodotus/hbglass.html From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 14 14:12:57 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:12:57 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <5510F348.066822C9.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 12/14/2004 4:22:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Philip Hart writes: >Noted in part because the idea has a vaguely Vladiad feel: > > ? Some years ago, one Ethan Mollick created the I Can Eat Glass Project, > ? which he described thus: > > ? The Project is based on the idea that people in a foreign country have > ? an irresistable urge to try to say something in the indigenous tongue. > ? In most cases, however, the best a person can do is "Where is the > ? bathroom?" a phrase that marks them as a tourist. But, if one says > ? "I can eat glass, it doesn't hurt me," you will be viewed as an insane > ? native, and treated with dignity and respect. > >http://www.geocities.com/nodotus/hbglass.html > "Oteai wa doko des ka?"-"Where is the bathroom?"-Japanese. The most fun phrase to say! -Crystal ^..^ From simbelmyne at softhome.net Tue Dec 14 16:15:19 2004 From: simbelmyne at softhome.net (Emily Frawley) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:15:19 -0500 Subject: Wood Decks, was Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41BF8217.8070601@softhome.net> >>>Never use plastic when you can use wood. >>> >>> >>Mileage varies. I'm building a deck to replace a rotten porch on my house. >>Rather than using regular wood decking, I'm using a composite material >>made >>from roughly equal parts recycled plastic bags and saw dust. >> >> >I have to question whether it's better to encourage the lumber industry in >cutting down all our forests, or to assist the plastics industry in >expanding our landfills. > > > You know those containers outside of grocery stores that you stuff full of your old plastic grocery sacks (if you do such things)? That's where the wood/plastic composite people get their plastic. Your bags aren't getting used to make new bags, they're getting sold to companies like Trex for chopping up and melting down. Trex is keeping your polyethylene _out_ of the landfills. >While lumber is a theoretically renewing resource, I'm not sure it can keep >pace with demand. > > > Once again, what would otherwise be a waste product is being put to good use. Some lumber mills burn their sawdust as an energy source, but during certain times of the year they produce more sawdust than they can burn and some places actually pay companies to come and take it away for them. No new trees are being cut down for the express purpose of being turned into wood composite. It's really a cool product. Basically they are taking trash, combining the two components (it's a little more complicated than that, but not much), and then selling the product to you for a good deal more than you would pay for lumber. From what I can tell of the finished product, it's well worth it. Simbelmyne Recovering Wood Science graduate, soon to be Registered Medical Technologist From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Dec 14 12:01:23 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:01:23 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1103054483.2393.231.camel@localhost> I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs to learn when visiting a foreign country is, "I do not speak your language. I am Canadian." On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 13:22, Philip Hart wrote: > Noted in part because the idea has a vaguely Vladiad feel: > > Some years ago, one Ethan Mollick created the I Can Eat Glass Project, > which he described thus: > > The Project is based on the idea that people in a foreign country have > an irresistable urge to try to say something in the indigenous tongue. > In most cases, however, the best a person can do is "Where is the > bathroom?" a phrase that marks them as a tourist. But, if one says > "I can eat glass, it doesn't hurt me," you will be viewed as an insane > native, and treated with dignity and respect. > > http://www.geocities.com/nodotus/hbglass.html > From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 14 18:26:37 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:26:37 +0000 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <1103054483.2393.231.camel@localhost> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steve Brust To: Philip Hart CC: Dragaera List Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:01:23 -0800 I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs to learn when visiting a foreign country is, "I do not speak your language. I am Canadian." > That phrase works wonders, I have used it around the world. As I have family in Vancouver, it's not quite a lie. . . Jeff G From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Dec 14 20:17:32 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:17:32 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1d6.3242c142.2ef114dc@aol.com> Today's cooking recipe is a dessert served to Noima, Her Majesty the Consort in Dragaera City: "Her Majesty seemed oblivious to the discussion, and concentrated all of her attention on a plate of sliced peaches, grapes, and rednuts that had been covered with a decoction of white wine and cinnamon mixed with sugar and sweet cream, all surrounded by tiny blocks of ice carved into the shape of trees. Khaavren, after noting it, turned his eyes firmly away, feeling uncomfortably like the family dog salivating at the bone on his master's plate." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eleventh, page 147 Hi, If someone wants to try making the above dessert, I would suggest finding a Christmas Tree shaped ice tray instead of carving out trees from "tiny blocks of ice". If you make the dessert, below is a description of the type of cooking article that David would like to post on dragaera.info . David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:17:34 -0600 >The other kind of cooking article I hope to have some of some day is a >specific recipe, worked out in detail, with explanations of what >decisions they had to make along the way, why they made them, and how >their friends liked the result :-). Or perhaps several recipes >combined, as a report on a "Dragaeran dinner" (yes, it's been done >before). >And kinds of cooking articles I haven't thought of will be looked at >with a moderately open mind. Bye. Linda G. From dave at waveridersystems.com Tue Dec 14 20:29:00 2004 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:29:00 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note References: <1103054483.2393.231.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <000601c4e25e$9c9aa440$61f556d1@queeg.net> My father in law traveled the world on business. He said the two phrases he always learned were "I have money" and "My firm will pay". Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Philip Hart" Cc: "Dragaera List" Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:01 PM Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note > I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs to learn when > visiting a foreign country is, "I do not speak your language. I am > Canadian." > > On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 13:22, Philip Hart wrote: > > Noted in part because the idea has a vaguely Vladiad feel: > > > > Some years ago, one Ethan Mollick created the I Can Eat Glass Project, > > which he described thus: > > > > The Project is based on the idea that people in a foreign country have > > an irresistable urge to try to say something in the indigenous tongue. > > In most cases, however, the best a person can do is "Where is the > > bathroom?" a phrase that marks them as a tourist. But, if one says > > "I can eat glass, it doesn't hurt me," you will be viewed as an insane > > native, and treated with dignity and respect. > > > > http://www.geocities.com/nodotus/hbglass.html > > > > From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 15 04:39:10 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:39:10 +0000 Subject: American tourists was - A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <20041215123758.GALQ11644.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[62.253.162.62]> > From: Steve Brust > Date: 2004/12/14 Tue PM 08:01:23 GMT > I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs >to learn when > visiting a foreign country is, "I do not >speak your language. I am Canadian." > A True Story. I met an American guy in Paris who was teaching English to French Air Traffic contollers. He was walking down the streets when he was stopped by an elderly American couple who asked him for directions. Afterwards they politely thanked him, and as he walked away, he heard the husband say to the wife "See Martha, I told you they could speak perfectly good english if they wanted to." HE told me he had never been so embarassed to be American. ----------------------------------------- Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 06:10:37 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:10:37 -0500 Subject: quotes Message-ID: <7B8CD7FA.68B86E93.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: quotes Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:35:54 -0500 Size: 810 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041215/f56472a1/attachment.mht From Bato001 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 06:17:07 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:17:07 EST Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> In a message dated 12/14/2004 8:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs to learn when visiting a foreign country is, "I do not speak your language. I am Canadian." It would be even better if you said those words in perfect "Canadian" French and the native language. Either that or take the time to learn a second language. Even if *that* particular language is not the primary language spoken, (ie: Speaking spanish in France) at least you don't look like a dumb american who can't ( or even worse, won't) learn a second language. French, Italian, Portugese and Spanish are similar enough that you can at least get by if you speak one of them. John D. Barbato, OD From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Dec 15 06:56:25 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:56:25 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041215145625.GB17633@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 09:17:07AM -0500, Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs to learn when > visiting a foreign country is, "I do not speak your language. I am > Canadian." This works well, according to second-hand reports from friends who've tried it. Don't bother with faking the accent; most Europeans can't distinguish middle American accents from central Canadian. Try to avoid speaking in a Southern US accent; some Europeans do detect them and realize you're lying. 'Oot and aboot' is right out. From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Dec 15 08:09:08 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:09:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Elvtarsok In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Martin Wohlert wrote: @> "elvtarsok": Noish-pa cannot think of the Dragaeran word he wants to @> describe Kelly's people, in relation to the murdered Franz [Tek52]: @> [Noish-pa:] "Well, his people, his -- what is the word? Elvtarsok?" @> [Vlad:] "Friends? Associates?" @> Noish-pa is never at a loss for words, in any sense. Is Brust doing @> something with the first syllable's resemblance to "elves"? @> @> @> I checked an online Hungarian-English dictionary, and found these two @> suspects: @> elvt?rs comrade @> and @> t?rsak companions I always thought he was doing something with the word 'comrade' in the sense of 'member of a Communist organization', but I could be reading too much into it. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 09:30:06 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:30:06 -0500 Subject: lightbulb jokes Message-ID: <4C8D7F11.07DBCA27.00184D6D@aol.com> I re-read the Yendi joke, but I found the other ones thanks to "Cracks and Shards," Thanks Mark! -Crystal ^..^ How many Easterners does it take to sharpen a sword? Four: one to hold the sword and three to move the grindstone. [Yen19] The point: Easterners are stupid. How many Dzur does it take to sharpen a sword? Four: one to sharpen the sword and three to put up enough of a fight to make it worthwhile. [Yen71] The point: Dzur love to fight. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MAILER-DAEMON at dd-b.net Subject: failure notice Date: 15 Dec 2004 16:33:01 -0000 Size: 2763 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041215/572550ea/attachment.mht From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Dec 15 09:30:57 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:30:57 -0500 Subject: quotes In-Reply-To: <7B8CD7FA.68B86E93.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41C02E81.8483.AD8AC1@localhost> On 15 Dec 2004 at 9:10, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > These are not necessarily ideas for the swag list, but if they go on there, that's ok. I was reading last night and I came across these ones. Just for fun, see if you can guess where they are from: "I passed to the next room, still being totally silent. I can do that you know." "We're civilized here, Jhereg. We do not beat or torture out prisoners." "Trees. Don't run into them. It hurts." -Crystal ^..^ > 1) Vlad, narrating in "Orca" 2) one of the King of Greenare's guard to Vlad in "Phoenix" 3) Vlad to Aibynn in "Phoenix" thanks for helping me waste time in work! M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Dec 15 09:56:00 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:56:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas Message-ID: <200412151756.iBFHu0tN028557@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Angelo wrote: > If Steve's quotables are fair game here, I ought to think it'd be neato to > have a bumper sticker that says: War is Bad. Peace is good. Or one sticker > for each sentence, if you don't understand at all how this is connected I'd > say look here: http://dreamcafe.com/rose.html I'd further suggest if you > have further interest (track nine, I think) titled of all strange things > "War is Bad". Heck, if we're going for song lyrics: "You're waiting for your dark knight on his white horse I'm waiting for his sister in a cherry-red porsche!" Chris From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Dec 15 10:40:30 2004 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:40:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: quotes In-Reply-To: <41C02E81.8483.AD8AC1@localhost> Message-ID: <20041215184031.74261.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michele Riccio wrote: > On 15 Dec 2004 at 9:10, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > > > > > > These are not necessarily ideas for the swag list, but if they go on > there, that's ok. I was reading last night and I came across these ones. > Just for fun, see if you can guess where they are from: > > "I passed to the next room, still being totally silent. I can do > that you know." > > "We're civilized here, Jhereg. We do not beat or torture out > prisoners." > > "Trees. Don't run into them. It hurts." > > -Crystal ^..^ > > > > 1) Vlad, narrating in "Orca" > 2) one of the King of Greenare's guard to Vlad in "Phoenix" > 3) Vlad to Aibynn in "Phoenix" Not Aibynn to Vlad? > thanks for helping me waste time in work! Now if we want T shirts just for the list, that would be a good slogan. Jerry Friedman is at work. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 15 10:50:35 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:50:35 +0000 Subject: American tourists was - A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215123758.GALQ11644.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@[62.253.162.62]> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: To: Steve Brust ,Philip Hart CC: Dragaera List Subject: American tourists was - A Linguistic Note Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:39:10 +0000 > From: Steve Brust > Date: 2004/12/14 Tue PM 08:01:23 GMT > I have long believed that the one phrase an American needs >to learn when > visiting a foreign country is, "I do not >speak your language. I am Canadian." > A True Story. I met an American guy in Paris who was teaching English to French Air Traffic contollers. He was walking down the streets when he was stopped by an elderly American couple who asked him for directions. Afterwards they politely thanked him, and as he walked away, he heard the husband say to the wife "See Martha, I told you they could speak perfectly good english if they wanted to." HE told me he had never been so embarassed to be American. ----------------------------------------- Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ I have always made it a point to dress like a local when I travel, but occasionally it backfires on me. While wandering outside of the tourist section of Rome, I was approached by an Italian, and he asked ME for directions! Jeff G From erik at debill.org Wed Dec 15 11:40:26 2004 From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:40:26 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041215194026.GA11855@debill.org> On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 09:17:07AM -0500, Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > Either that or take the time to learn a second language. Even if *that* > particular language is not the primary language spoken, (ie: Speaking spanish in > France) at least you don't look like a dumb american who can't ( or even > worse, won't) learn a second language. French, Italian, Portugese and Spanish are > similar enough that you can at least get by if you speak one of them. I once had a hilarious conversation with a young man from France who was desperately trying to find out what hotel my sister was staying in on a visit to Paris. He'd somehow managed to track down her home number in Texas. The catch was that neither of us spoke the other's language and we had to use Spanish. It worked, but the whole situation was pretty funny. -- Well I'm walking through the sand In the desert of my mind And I don't remember what it was That I came here to find -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone" From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 15 11:43:16 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:43:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > French, Italian, Portugese and Spanish are similar enough that you can > at least get by if you speak one of them. In my experience one has to speak the language in question really really well for this to work because it relies on overlaps of unusual vocab. My luck pretending Dutch is German or Italian is French or Spanish is Italian has been pretty crummy. Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an easy, flexible language with a great children's literature. From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Wed Dec 15 11:47:17 2004 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:47:17 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: I was in the Marines , hence I traveled allot. One of those places I lived in was Okinawa, Japan. I gave up on Japanese after a few words and found if I try hard enough I can find someone that speaks English. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 2:43 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > French, Italian, Portugese and Spanish are similar enough that you can > at least get by if you speak one of them. In my experience one has to speak the language in question really really well for this to work because it relies on overlaps of unusual vocab. My luck pretending Dutch is German or Italian is French or Spanish is Italian has been pretty crummy. Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an easy, flexible language with a great children's literature. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 11:51:21 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:51:21 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: (Philip Hart's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:43:16 -0800 (PST)") References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an easy, > flexible language with a great children's literature. It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming literate in chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is a standard school subject much of anywhere else. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Dec 15 12:08:10 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:08:10 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the > alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of > becoming literate in chinese!), actually. And I don't > believe "spelling" is a standard school subject much of anywhere else. I'd pretty much assumed that Phil was being sarcastic. I thought it was pretty well known that English (particularly the American brand) is one of the more difficult to pick up as a second language. From worldserpent at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 12:11:43 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:11:43 -1000 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> Message-ID: <59e251ba0412151211d9b6c1c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:51:21 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > > > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an easy, > > flexible language with a great children's literature. > > It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the alphabetic > languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming literate in > chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is a standard > school subject much of anywhere else. > Hmm, I don't know. I don't think it's very meaningful to speak of English as being the "hardest," because hardness really depends on where the learner is coming from. It's going to be a lot harder for a native speaker of Chinese to learn English than a native speaker of Swedish or German. Charmian From s1burns at ucsd.edu Wed Dec 15 12:24:18 2004 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:24:18 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <59e251ba0412151211d9b6c1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041215202422.KEVP21905.fed1rmmtao12.cox.net@Soltan> But it IS meaningful for DDB to relate that there is a consensus amongst experts (and non-experts) that English is among the hardest languages. So, as people who have studied the issue conclude, accounting for all relevant factors like where the non-native speaker comes from, the consensus is that English is hard, not easy. Shawn -----Original Message----- From: Charmian [mailto:worldserpent at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:12 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:51:21 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > > > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an > > easy, flexible language with a great children's literature. > > It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the alphabetic > languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming literate in > chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is a standard > school subject much of anywhere else. > Hmm, I don't know. I don't think it's very meaningful to speak of English as being the "hardest," because hardness really depends on where the learner is coming from. It's going to be a lot harder for a native speaker of Chinese to learn English than a native speaker of Swedish or German. Charmian From trager at pile.org Wed Dec 15 12:36:48 2004 From: trager at pile.org (Trager) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:36:48 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas (very slight spoiler) In-Reply-To: <233d01c4e170$2f21fd80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <233d01c4e170$2f21fd80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: IIRC: Tazendra -- she would have done the same as Kathana Marish'Chala... only she doesn't paint. On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:02:21 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> > --- abcmm at att.net wrote: >> > >> > > "I don't paint." [no idea what art would be appropiate] >> > > > > Actually, I'd have to say that this falls under the "so obscure as to be > meaningless" category. A person viewing this quote would scratch his head > and say "You're not a painter? So, what?" > > Heck, I'm a relatively well-read Brust fan and I myself don't get what > that > quote is referring to. > > (Maybe something in Sethra Lavode, which I haven't read yet?) > From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Dec 15 12:49:11 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:11 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 01:51:21PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > [English is] widely reported to be among the hardest of the alphabetic > languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming literate in > chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is a standard > school subject much of anywhere else. I can believe that. When I was studying Russian and found out that things are spelled like they're pronounced and pronounced like they're spell, it was heavenly. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> From warbi at warbi.net Wed Dec 15 12:51:22 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:51:22 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <00f501c4e2e7$da897220$6351b041@warbi> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "David Dyer-Bennet" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note > On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 01:51:21PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >> [English is] widely reported to be among the hardest of the alphabetic >> languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming literate in >> chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is a standard >> school subject much of anywhere else. > > I can believe that. When I was studying Russian and found out that > things are spelled like they're pronounced and pronounced like they're > spell, it was heavenly. > -- > "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." > Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> > Until you realized that the nouns and adjectives had declensions and the verbs are irregular more often than not! lol warbi From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 13:17:14 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:17:14 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <722AC857.1C30E0F5.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: RE: A Linguistic Note Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:07:21 -0500 Size: 1351 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041215/1ea43c29/attachment.mht From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 13:20:02 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:20:02 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <17E6641B.4BB44B69.00184D6D@aol.com> Anyone up on the sticker idea? I should be able to get quite a bit for free (not sure on how many). I don't think the shipping cost of a sticker will be more than a friggin' stamp. Let me know. Everyone has to agree on a phrase. Thanks bunches. -Crystal ^..^ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 15 13:23:33 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:23:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the > > alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of > > becoming literate in chinese!), actually. And I don't > > believe "spelling" is a standard school subject much of anywhere else. > > I'd pretty much assumed that Phil was being sarcastic. I thought it was > pretty well known that English (particularly the American brand) is one of > the more difficult to pick up as a second language. Actually, I'm unaware of such a consensus. I'd say Latin, French, German, Dutch, probably Hebrew and Greek and Russian are more difficult than English; Italian (and more so Spanish) a bit easier. But for communicating with someone at the 500-word vocab level I think English is easiest by a good deal. Also a lot of modern words are more comfortable in English. Anyway, the consensus among Europeans I know is that English was easiest to learn of the languages they know. Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use a comma correctly in German? Talk to an Italian from a small town? Speak French well enough not to get Englished in Paris? Keep gender/person references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? From warbi at warbi.net Wed Dec 15 13:30:47 2004 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:30:47 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <014b01c4e2ed$58c15bd0$6351b041@warbi> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: RE: A Linguistic Note Keep gender/person > references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? Getting drunk (or whatever intoxicant they use) with the locals is one of the best ways to become conversationally fluent. You don't feel as embarassed making mistakes and you can pick up "colorful" argot. Of course, if you go overboard... hahaha warbi From worldserpent at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 13:33:43 2004 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:33:43 -1000 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <59e251ba04121513337e19791@mail.gmail.com> > > Actually, I'm unaware of such a consensus. I'd say Latin, French, German, > Dutch, probably Hebrew and Greek and Russian are more difficult than > English; Italian (and more so Spanish) a bit easier. But for > communicating with someone at the 500-word vocab level I think English is > easiest by a good deal. Also a lot of modern words are more comfortable > in English. Anyway, the consensus among Europeans I know is that English > was easiest to learn of the languages they know. > > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use > a comma correctly in German? Talk to an Italian from a small town? Speak > French well enough not to get Englished in Paris? Keep gender/person > references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? > Agreed. I don't know how linguists could prove that one language is inherently more difficult in terms of grammar than another, since no one does not have a native language. The best they could do is study language acquisition in infants, but when they do that, they find that kids learn their native language all about the same time. Studies have shown, however, that English is harder to read and write than many other European languages. But there I don't think English gets anywhere near Chinese and Japanese, as far as writing difficulty goes. (The Koreans use a syllabic alphabet) Charmian From rakehell at usa.net Wed Dec 15 13:36:59 2004 From: rakehell at usa.net (G Wilhelm) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:36:59 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <601iLoVK88512S07.1103146619@cmsweb07.cms.usa.net> Here's one vote for it. The hardest part is going to be coming up with a phrase we can all agree on. -- GCW ------ Original Message ------ Received: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:20:52 PM EST From: MedCat7 at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: stickers > Anyone up on the sticker idea? I should be able to get quite a bit for free (not sure on how many). I don't think the shipping cost of a sticker will be more than a friggin' stamp. Let me know. Everyone has to agree on a phrase. Thanks bunches. > -Crystal ^..^ > From daveg at frost.he.net Wed Dec 15 13:40:40 2004 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <59e251ba04121513337e19791@mail.gmail.com> from "Charmian" at Dec 15, 2004 11:33:43 AM Message-ID: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > > > It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the > > > alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of > > > becoming literate in chinese!), actually. Even learning to speak Chinese is hard for many westerners. It's that whole tonal thing - many western adults just can't grok it. Dave From daveg at frost.he.net Wed Dec 15 13:41:12 2004 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:41:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <59e251ba04121513337e19791@mail.gmail.com> from "Charmian" at Dec 15, 2004 11:33:43 AM Message-ID: <1103146872.15213@frost.he.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Philip Hart" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:23 PM > Subject: RE: A Linguistic Note > > Keep gender/person > > references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? > > Getting drunk (or whatever intoxicant they use) with the locals is one of > the best ways to become conversationally fluent. You don't feel as > embarassed making mistakes and you can pick up "colorful" argot. Of course, > if you go overboard... hahaha warbi I agree. I can't understand Italian at all unless I'm synaptically lubricated. Dave From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 15 13:43:37 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:43:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <59e251ba04121513337e19791@mail.gmail.com> References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <59e251ba04121513337e19791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Charmian wrote: > Agreed. I don't know how linguists could prove that one language is > inherently more difficult in terms of grammar than another, since no > one does not have a native language. The best they could do is study > language acquisition in infants, but when they do that, they find that > kids learn their native language all about the same time. We discussed this a number of months back, at which time I proposed comparing the acquisition rate of language B by language A speakers with the A-B rate. > Studies have shown, however, that English is harder to read and write > than many other European languages. Interesting - from the point of view of concision, English usually wins - that could work either way. From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Dec 15 13:18:54 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:18:54 -0500 Subject: quotes In-Reply-To: <20041215184031.74261.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41C02E81.8483.AD8AC1@localhost> Message-ID: <41C063EE.4063.17E441B@localhost> On 15 Dec 2004 at 10:40, Jerry Friedman wrote > --- Michele Riccio wrote: > > > thanks for helping me waste time in work! > > Now if we want T shirts just for the list, that would be a good > slogan. > > Jerry Friedman > is at work. > A perfect shirt for casual Friday, no? M (slightly miffed that I didn't get the first quote right) Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 13:49:23 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:49:23 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <55B4EE01.3008198E.00184D6D@aol.com> Ain't that the truth! In a message dated 12/15/2004 4:36:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, G Wilhelm writes: >Here's one vote for it. ?The hardest part is going to be coming up with a >phrase we can all agree on. > >-- >GCW > >------ Original Message ------ >Received: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:20:52 PM EST >From: MedCat7 at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: stickers > >> Anyone up on the sticker idea? I should be able to get quite a bit for free >(not sure on how many). I don't think the shipping cost of a sticker will be >more than a friggin' stamp. Let me know. Everyone has to agree on a phrase. >Thanks bunches. >> -Crystal ^..^ >> > > > > From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Dec 15 13:58:00 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:58:00 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <722AC857.1C30E0F5.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <722AC857.1C30E0F5.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041215215800.GA18722@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 04:17:14PM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > A good friend of mine is Brazillian (Portuguesse speaking) and he had > to learn English quick. He learne some in Brazil, but it wasn't good > enough. He learnd wicked quick (to the point of him now saying "wicked" > and "dude"). It was helpful that I remembered a lot of Spanish since > a lot of words are simmilar. His dad speaks a crap load of langueges, > so it helped, too. Warning, laymans anecdote approaching. . . There were about 700 kids in my high school (San Marcos, CA, 1970). About 30-40% were first or second generation immigrants from Mexico, nearly all the rest upper middle class WASP. The majority of 'other' were 3rd-generation Russians whose grandparents had fled Russia very early in the 20th century. Those kids were pretty much Americanized, their parents partially so, and their grandparents not at all. The kids spoke a few words of bad russian at best. They had a bunch of relatives who'd headed for Brazil rather than the US. Things weren't real good in Brazil at that point, and the San Marcos Russian families managed to get the Brazilian Russians into the US. The Brazilian Russian kids of course spoke Portuguese. Nor did they speak English, and their Russian was bad enough to be useless. The Mexicans couldn't understand the Portuguese at all. But us Anglo kids who spoke OK Spanish could struggle thru the Portuguese and ferret out the meanings. My guess is that our ears were tuned to deal with badly pronounced Spanish and Russian accents, so the differences between Portuguese and Spanish didn't throw us off as badly as it did the native Spanish speakers. Plus we'd been learning Castillian Spanish rather than Tiajuana street Spanish. This led to the occasional bizarre multi-way translations as the Russo/Brazilian kids spoke Portuguese to the anglos and the Russo/Anglos, who then translated into Spanish for the Mexicans. Periodicly one of the Russo/Anglos would then translate it into Russian for his grandparents. With intense help like that, the Russo/Brazilian kids picked up English *really fast*. And for a while, they had the most amazing accents you'd ever heard. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 13:54:05 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:54:05 -0700 Subject: American tourists was - A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c4e2f0$99205d40$667ba8c0@Dad133> jeff G. wrote: > ----Original Message Follows---- > A True Story. I met an American guy in Paris who was teaching > English to French Air Traffic contollers. He was walking down the > streets when he was stopped by an elderly American couple who asked > him for directions. Every international airport in the world - outside of Quebec has air traffic controllers who speak English. Montreal's speaks French. It is interesting that there are international pilots who don't know good English - just good enough to communicate with Air Traffic Controllers. (Although it is a safety issue to learn it better) > Jeff G From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 13:57:56 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:57:56 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215194026.GA11855@debill.org> Message-ID: <000d01c4e2f1$233d6b80$667ba8c0@Dad133> erik at debill.org wrote: > I once had a hilarious conversation with a young man from France who > was desperately trying to find out what hotel my sister was staying in > on a visit to Paris. He'd somehow managed to track down her home > number in Texas. The catch was that neither of us spoke the other's > language and we had to use Spanish. It worked, but the whole > situation was pretty funny. Thinking back to Steve's "Ford" - The lingua franca used to be Latin. Now it's English. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Dec 15 13:59:35 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: quotes Message-ID: <200412152159.iBFLxZtN020482@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> > > --- Michele Riccio wrote: > > > > > thanks for helping me waste time in work! I also found this general-sounding line: "It's been my experience that, just when things look bleakest, they continue to look bleak." Ace Yendi, top of pg 52. Another submission? Chris From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:00:23 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:00:23 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c4e2f1$7ae63740$667ba8c0@Dad133> Brian Keegan wrote: > I was in the Marines , hence I traveled allot. One of those places I > lived in was Okinawa, Japan. I gave up on Japanese after a few words > and found if I try hard enough I can find someone that speaks > English. > This is easier to do than French, as most Japanese assume their language is too difficult for foreigners to master. The occasional exception really surprises them. It ends up being a different type of pride than what the French have about foreigners using their language. From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:02:41 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:02:41 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215202422.KEVP21905.fed1rmmtao12.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <000f01c4e2f1$ccc69aa0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Shawn Burns wrote: > But it IS meaningful for DDB to relate that there is a consensus > amongst experts (and non-experts) that English is among the hardest > languages. For a limited selection of languages. There are *lots* of languages that are alien to what the majority of international people know. From daveg at frost.he.net Wed Dec 15 14:03:39 2004 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:03:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215215800.GA18722@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> from "Steve Simmons" at Dec 15, 2004 04:58:00 PM Message-ID: <1103148219.30332@frost.he.net> > > This led to the occasional bizarre multi-way translations as the > Russo/Brazilian kids spoke Portuguese to the anglos and the Russo/Anglos, > who then translated into Spanish for the Mexicans. Periodicly one of > the Russo/Anglos would then translate it into Russian for his > grandparents. > I remember a two-way translation job I had to do back in college. On the one hand I had a fellow from Punjab who spoke with a hindi accent. He spoke quickly, especially when excited. His English was fine. One the other hand I had a fellow from the hills of West Virginia. He was quite smart, but could fool you with his slow hillbilly accent. There was nothing wrong with his English either. These two fellers couldn't understand a word the other said. I would sit between them and translate English into English for them. Dave From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:07:18 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:07:18 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <00f501c4e2e7$da897220$6351b041@warbi> Message-ID: <001001c4e2f2$720fd620$667ba8c0@Dad133> warbi wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- >> On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 01:51:21PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> >>> [English is] widely reported to be among the hardest of the >>> alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming >>> literate in chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is >>> a standard school subject much of anywhere else. >> >> I can believe that. When I was studying Russian and found out that >> things are spelled like they're pronounced and pronounced like >> they're spell, it was heavenly. -- >> "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." >> Steve Brust, Message >> <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> >> > Until you realized that the nouns and adjectives had declensions > and the verbs are irregular more often than not! lol warbi I still preferred its phonetic alphabet. On the other hand, spelling "correctly" is something relatively new for English speakers. Read Lewis and Clarke's journals and wonder how similar their language was to ours. It's interesting to note that Colonists can be more phonetic in our pronunciation than Brits are. We had a large percentage of our ancestors who were literate when they learned English - and learned words by reading them. Most of Brits had ancestors who learned the language before they were literate and learned the words by hearing them. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Dec 15 14:07:24 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:07:24 -0500 Subject: stickers In-Reply-To: <55B4EE01.3008198E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com asked. > Anyone up on the sticker idea? Seems to me the following are reasonable for a bumper sticker. All the others are too long or require too much art. Shut up, Loiosh! Bitch Patrol Dragaera Got Morganti? Got Klava? Valabar's. My other weapon is a barstool. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Dec 15 14:10:40 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:10:40 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:57:56 MST." <000d01c4e2f1$233d6b80$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <200412152210.iBFMAewA016278@all-night-tool.mit.edu> I just learned something. I had always thought that "lingua franca" had originally meant "French" from the time when French was the sophisticated language for educated people to learn. But the oed says: b. lingua franca [It., = Frankish tongue] a mixed language or jargon used in the Levant, consisting largely of Italian words deprived of their inflexions. Also transf. any mixed jargon formed as a medium of intercourse between people speaking different languages. This makes my favorite quote (from a co-worker) must less cool: "The French are just pissed because English is the new lingua franca." > erik at debill.org wrote: > > > I once had a hilarious conversation with a young man from France who > > was desperately trying to find out what hotel my sister was staying in > > on a visit to Paris. He'd somehow managed to track down her home > > number in Texas. The catch was that neither of us spoke the other's > > language and we had to use Spanish. It worked, but the whole > > situation was pretty funny. > > Thinking back to Steve's "Ford" - The lingua franca used to be Latin. Now > it's English. > > > From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:11:41 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:11:41 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c4e2f3$0e98ed10$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: > Actually, I'm unaware of such a consensus. I'd say Latin, French, > German, Dutch, probably Hebrew and Greek and Russian are more > difficult than English; Italian (and more so Spanish) a bit easier. > But for communicating with someone at the 500-word vocab level I > think English is easiest by a good deal. Also a lot of modern words > are more comfortable in English. Anyway, the consensus among > Europeans I know is that English was easiest to learn of the > languages they know. I've heard that as well. Certainly a pidgin English is easier. You only need to know the basic word, no declensions and tenses to get by. > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to > use a comma correctly in German? What I wonder is how their spell checkers work. From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:14:28 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:14:28 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <014b01c4e2ed$58c15bd0$6351b041@warbi> Message-ID: <001201c4e2f3$726b2010$667ba8c0@Dad133> warbi wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > Getting drunk (or whatever intoxicant they use) with the locals is > one of the best ways to become conversationally fluent. You don't > feel as embarassed making mistakes and you can pick up "colorful" > argot. Of course, if you go overboard... hahaha warbi I remember an old conceit that used to be in fiction a lot. Some colorful character would start swearing and the hero would step back in admiration. The author could do this because he wasn't allowed to actually include the swearing. We are told that it was great - but we didn't see it. From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:15:50 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:15:50 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> Message-ID: <001301c4e2f3$a33757e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> daveg at frost.he.net wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >>> >>>> It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the >>>> alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of >>>> becoming literate in chinese!), actually. > > Even learning to speak Chinese is hard for many westerners. It's > that whole tonal thing - many western adults just can't grok it. And many Chinese can't let it go when they speak western languages. From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:17:11 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:17:11 -0700 Subject: stickers In-Reply-To: <55B4EE01.3008198E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <001401c4e2f3$d4051650$667ba8c0@Dad133> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: I don't use bumper stickers. I will buy an attractive shirt. From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 15 14:19:58 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:19:58 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215215800.GA18722@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <001501c4e2f4$36f85b00$667ba8c0@Dad133> Steve Simmons wrote: > > The Mexicans couldn't understand the Portuguese at all. But us Anglo > kids who spoke OK Spanish could struggle thru the Portuguese and > ferret out the meanings. My guess is that our ears were tuned to > deal with badly pronounced Spanish and Russian accents, so the > differences between Portuguese and Spanish didn't throw us off as > badly as it did the > native Spanish speakers. Plus we'd been learning Castillian Spanish > rather than Tiajuana street Spanish. I'm not fluent in Spanish. But when I watched _Como Agua Para Chocolate_, I found when the Texan spoke Spanish, I had no need to look at subtitles. He was very easy to understand. I asked a Spanish speaking friend and was told that that character had a strong American accent. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Dec 15 14:57:32 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:57:32 +0100 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <59e251ba04121513337e19791@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: Charmian >Agreed. I don't know how linguists could prove that one language is >inherently more difficult in terms of grammar than another, since no >one does not have a native language. The best they could do is study >language acquisition in infants, but when they do that, they find that >kids learn their native language all about the same time. Studies have >shown, however, that English is harder to read and write than many >other European languages. But there I don't think English gets >anywhere near Chinese and Japanese, as far as writing difficulty goes. >(The Koreans use a syllabic alphabet) > >Charmian Danish is harder to learn than Swedish; when a Swedish 2 year old know ~140 (IIRC) words a Danish kid know ~100. This is because of the (grown) Danes swallowing half the words. I believe that English can be among the harder languages; at least I know that the spelling can be a female dog... /mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 15:16:20 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:16:20 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215202422.KEVP21905.fed1rmmtao12.cox.net@Soltan> (Shawn Burns's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:24:18 -0800") References: <20041215202422.KEVP21905.fed1rmmtao12.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: "Shawn Burns" writes: > But it IS meaningful for DDB to relate that there is a consensus amongst > experts (and non-experts) that English is among the hardest > languages. Yeah, well. It's meaningful for there to be a consensus amongst experts, anyway. My saying so doesn't add much. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 15:17:43 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:17:43 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> (Steve Simmons's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:49:11 -0500") References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 01:51:21PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >> [English is] widely reported to be among the hardest of the alphabetic >> languages (let's not get into the difficulty of becoming literate in >> chinese!), actually. And I don't believe "spelling" is a standard >> school subject much of anywhere else. > > I can believe that. When I was studying Russian and found out that > things are spelled like they're pronounced and pronounced like they're > spell, it was heavenly. When I took Russian in college, we did all the funny sounds and the funny writing (both typeset and hand-written) the first week. And it was never much of a problem after that. German was even simpler -- fewer strange sounds, fewer strange letters. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 15:20:46 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:20:46 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <00f501c4e2e7$da897220$6351b041@warbi> (warbi@warbi.net's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:51:22 -0800") References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <00f501c4e2e7$da897220$6351b041@warbi> Message-ID: "warbi" writes: >> I can believe that. When I was studying Russian and found out that >> things are spelled like they're pronounced and pronounced like they're >> spell, it was heavenly. > Until you realized that the nouns and adjectives had declensions and > the verbs are irregular more often than not! lol warbi Irregular verbs are commonly used, but there aren't that *many* of them. Certainly German and Russian (the two foreign languages I've studied at all seriously) have more grammar than English does, it takes a little getting used to. But it's quite elegant when you get used to it. (I should add that I haven't touched either since early in my college career, around 30 years ago now, so my memory of them is a bit rusty). Seems to be easier for English speakers to learn that grammar than for speakers of those languages to learn the vocabulary, spelling, and rather idiosyncratic usage of English. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 15:26:25 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:26:25 -0600 Subject: quotes In-Reply-To: <200412152159.iBFLxZtN020482@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> (Chris Olson's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:59:35 -0800 (PST)") References: <200412152159.iBFLxZtN020482@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > "It's been my experience that, just when things > look bleakest, they continue to look bleak." > > Ace Yendi, top of pg 52. > > Another submission? Yep. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 15:27:37 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:27:37 -0600 Subject: American tourists was - A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <000c01c4e2f0$99205d40$667ba8c0@Dad133> (Howard Brazee's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:54:05 -0700") References: <000c01c4e2f0$99205d40$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: "Howard Brazee" writes: > jeff G. wrote: >> ----Original Message Follows---- > >> A True Story. I met an American guy in Paris who was teaching >> English to French Air Traffic contollers. He was walking down the >> streets when he was stopped by an elderly American couple who asked >> him for directions. > > Every international airport in the world - outside of Quebec has air > traffic controllers who speak English. Montreal's speaks French. Quebec has controllers who speak English too; they just try to avoid admitting it to Canadian pilots. International treaty requires *all* air traffic control to accept English. Usually they accept the local native language as well. > It is interesting that there are international pilots who don't know > good English - just good enough to communicate with Air Traffic > Controllers. (Although it is a safety issue to learn it better) And it's been cited as one cause of various accidents over the years, too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Dec 15 10:39:12 2004 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:39:12 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <1103135952.2393.443.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2004-12-15 at 15:17, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > When I took Russian in college, we did all the funny sounds and the > funny writing (both typeset and hand-written) the first week. And it > was never much of a problem after that. I either never knew or had forgotten that you took Russian in college. My father taught Russian one there; was he your teacher? You probably told me before, one way or the other, and I forgot. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Dec 15 15:44:50 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:44:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <200412152344.iBFNiotN029736@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Steven Brust wrote: > I either never knew or had forgotten that you took Russian in college. > My father taught Russian one there; was he your teacher? You probably > told me before, one way or the other, and I forgot. Yeah, memory really is like a thingamajiggy. Or was that a whatchamacallit? Damn, I can't remember. :) Chris From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Dec 15 15:50:50 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:50:50 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Steve Brust's message <1103135952.2393.443.camel@localhost> of 15 December 2004 References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <1103135952.2393.443.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <16832.52698.222268.873360@gw.dd-b.net> Steve Brust writes on 15 December 2004 at 10:39:12 -0800 > On Wed, 2004-12-15 at 15:17, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > When I took Russian in college, we did all the funny sounds and the > > funny writing (both typeset and hand-written) the first week. And it > > was never much of a problem after that. > > I either never knew or had forgotten that you took Russian in college. > My father taught Russian one there; was he your teacher? You probably > told me before, one way or the other, and I forgot. Nope, not your father. I don't *think* he was teaching Russian the year I took it (I took just two classes, my first two terms). But I could just remember that wrong. Anyway, he didn't teach *my classes*. I think I had Joe Sheppard, or however it's spelled (not necessarily like the guys who take care of sheep, so spell check doesn't help much). I probably should have taken my German deeper instead. But there I was, as a Freshman, considering taking upper-division foreign language literature courses which were otherwise taken mostly by majors, and me a techy math major; it just didn't look like a good idea. I suppose I could have taken them pass/fail. But I chickened out and started another language instead. At least I picked up a new alphabet and some new sounds. (Herr Rockey and maxing out the SAT German Achievement test having exempted me from the need to take the four basic language courses.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Bato001 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 19:11:44 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:11:44 EST Subject: stickers Message-ID: <199.3490af84.2ef256f0@aol.com> In a message dated 12/15/2004 5:10:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, casey at the-bat.net writes: MedCat7 at aol.com asked. > Anyone up on the sticker idea? Seems to me the following are reasonable for a bumper sticker. All the others are too long or require too much art. Shut up, Loiosh! Bitch Patrol Dragaera Got Morganti? Got Klava? Valabar's. My other weapon is a barstool. I'm up for bumper stickers. I like my other weapon is a barstool. John D. Barbato OD From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Dec 15 20:13:26 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:13:26 EST Subject: If Sethra the Younger invades Fenario Message-ID: <156.4679cfc4.2ef26566@aol.com> Hi, If Sethra the Younger invades the East and invades the part of the East that is Fenario, is it Khaavren's duty to surrender himself to the current ruler of Fenario? Crionofenarr, the Easterner speaking to Adron: ' "It seems to indicate some doubt." "It does, because how can I know that I will become the Marquis of these lands? And, if I am not, how can I know the truce will be held?" "I answer for it," said Khaavren. The Easterner looked at Khaavren with an expression of speculation. "You answer for it?" he said doubtfully. "I more than answer for it, I swear that, if does not come about, well, I will place myself in your hands for you to do with as you would." "I swear to it by ... by ..." Khaavren cast his eyes around for something to swear by, and at last he found it. "I swear to it," he said, "by the blood of your horse." Evidently, he had, by chance, found the right answer, for Crionofenarr, after expressing surprise, nodded and said, "I believe you. Give me your hand." "Here it is." "And here is mine." "That is well." "And yours, Lord Adron?" "Here it is." ' The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Thirtieth, page 379 - 380 Bye. Linda G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 15 20:18:37 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:18:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: If Sethra the Younger invades Fenario In-Reply-To: <156.4679cfc4.2ef26566@aol.com> References: <156.4679cfc4.2ef26566@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Hi, > > If Sethra the Younger invades the East and invades the part of the East > that is Fenario, is it Khaavren's duty to surrender himself to the > current ruler of Fenario? I think K offers his body to cover the truce not to guarantee the treaty. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Dec 16 05:22:36 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:22:36 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <41C18C1C.1000908@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >Actually, I'm unaware of such a consensus. I'd say Latin, French, German, >Dutch, probably Hebrew and Greek and Russian are more difficult than >English; Italian (and more so Spanish) a bit easier. But for >communicating with someone at the 500-word vocab level I think English is >easiest by a good deal. > > You might get by as a tourist that way, but you certainly aren't going anywhere else, if that is all you know of English. And even then, if you haven't got the hang of English syntax, you might be saying the opposite of what you mean. The real difficulty with English is the inordinate number of exceptions to its basic grammar rules, so many exceptions that one could be forgiven for assuming that there is no real English grammar & giving up in despair. German grammar is a piece of cake by comparison, and Latin isn't any worse than English, certainly. >Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use >a comma correctly in German? Talk to an Italian from a small town? Speak >French well enough not to get Englished in Paris? Keep gender/person >references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? > > > Yes to the first; it's not hard, about like English rules for punctuation ca. Austen's time; no to the second; yes to the third--the secret is to act like you know what you are doing & with a certain amount of Parisian superiority (Parisians treat other Frenchmen from the provinces only slightly better than they treat tourists generally; yes to the fourth. You might learn to *communicate* in English more quickly than in many other languages, but actually *learning* English is a lot tougher than most languages. Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Dec 16 05:25:36 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:25:36 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> References: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> Message-ID: <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> daveg at frost.he.net wrote: >>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >> >> >>>>It's widely reported to be among the hardest of the >>>>alphabetic languages (let's not get into the difficulty of >>>>becoming literate in chinese!), actually. >>>> >>>> > >Even learning to speak Chinese is hard for many westerners. It's that whole >tonal thing - many western adults just can't grok it. > > > Made even worse by the fact that most people lose the ability to hear differences between vowel tones they are accustomed to & foreign ones by the time they are 12. That's why few adults learn to speak another language with the correct accent or at least, accent-free, and why it is much much easier to learn languages when you are a young kid. Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Dec 16 05:32:01 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:32:01 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <00f501c4e2e7$da897220$6351b041@warbi> Message-ID: <41C18E51.2020500@email.ers.usda.gov> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Certainly German and Russian (the two foreign languages I've >studied at all seriously) have more grammar than English does, it >takes a little getting used to. > > At least as far as German goes, I would flatly disagree with you; I am certain that English has more grammatical rules to master. The fact that English is positional & has lost virtually all of its inflections doesn't mean that it has less in the way of grammar. Snarkhunter From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 16 06:13:47 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:13:47 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <5E5AB42D.2739024A.00184D6D@aol.com> Last night, while I was painting stupid 40K figs for my brother, I asked my fiance how many stickers his mom could get me for free (200 stickers, not bumper ones...as of yet). My other brother mentioned he has to do a project of bumper stickers for his graphic arts class. He has to do 10 bumper stickers. He is doing 2 already. I gave him 4 phrases off the top of my head (he needed some to do today in class): "Trees. Don't run into them. It hurts." "Got Morganti" "When all you have is a stick, everything looks like a knee cap" "You have a whole head. I can heal that for you," Naal the healer. The web site I told him to put in smaller font is the Dream Cafe one. I hope that is ok because I couldn't remember whick one was the one it was supposed to be. He did say he wasn't going to do all of them and since they are his project I didn't argue. I also let him design them how he wants. When he finishes them, let me know if any one wants one of those. Tonight I am going to give them a few more. -Crystal ^..^ In a message dated 12/15/2004 5:07:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Casey Rousseau" writes: >MedCat7 at aol.com asked. >> Anyone up on the sticker idea? > >Seems to me the following are reasonable for a bumper sticker. ?All the >others are too long or require too much art. > >Shut up, Loiosh! >Bitch Patrol >Dragaera >Got Morganti? >Got Klava? >Valabar's. >My other weapon is a barstool. > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 16 06:22:43 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:22:43 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <3E5BEE49.7BC3E836.00184D6D@aol.com> I am working on it! I'll keep everyone updated. -Crystal ^..^ In a message dated 12/15/2004 10:11:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 at aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 12/15/2004 5:10:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ? >casey at the-bat.net writes: > >MedCat7 at aol.com asked. >> Anyone up on the sticker idea? ? > >Seems to me the following are reasonable for a bumper sticker. ? All the >others are too long or require too much art. > >Shut up, ?Loiosh! >Bitch Patrol >Dragaera >Got Morganti? >Got Klava? ? >Valabar's. >My other weapon is a barstool. ? > > > > >I'm up for bumper stickers. > >I like my other weapon is a barstool. > >John D. Barbato OD > From howard at brazee.net Thu Dec 16 06:28:37 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:28:37 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:25:36 -0500, Ken Koester wrote: > Made even worse by the fact that most people lose the ability to hear > differences between vowel tones they are accustomed to & foreign ones by > the time they are 12. That's why few adults learn to speak another > language with the correct accent or at least, accent-free, and why it is > much much easier to learn languages when you are a young kid. I read of a study made. They took 6 month old Americans and Japanese and made noises ra-ra-ra-ra-la-ra. When the "la" happened they did something interesting. The babies learned to look up when they heard "la". They did the same thing for year-old children and the Japanese babies did not look up when the word changed to "la". They had already learned that "ra" and "la" were the same and couldn't hear the difference between them. This study fascinates me. How much of the world have I learned to ignore? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From abcmm at att.net Thu Dec 16 06:48:51 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:48:51 +0000 Subject: FW: Re: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <121620041448.16432.41C1A05300005A4100004030216028130203030C0D0E@att.net> I am Colombian but raised in rural GA. So you can imagine my accent! hehehe... But to get back to my original reason for responding. My girlfriend is almost fluent in Spanish (school taught) and she can't pronounce anything in spanish unless she is completely sloshed. Then all of the sudden she sounds like a native latina! Berni (that is Decatur Georgian for Bernardo) -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "warbi" To: Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:31:17 +0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: RE: A Linguistic Note Keep gender/person > references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? Getting drunk (or whatever intoxicant they use) with the locals is one of the best ways to become conversationally fluent. You don't feel as embarassed making mistakes and you can pick up "colorful" argot. Of course, if you go overboard... hahaha warbi From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Dec 16 07:04:52 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:04:52 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20041216150452.GA21000@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 07:28:37AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > This study fascinates me. How much of the world have I learned to ignore? We could point it out, but you wouldn't see it. (joke! joke!) -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost> From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Dec 16 06:59:47 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:59:47 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <1103146840.14984@frost.he.net> <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <41C1A2E3.6020609@email.ers.usda.gov> Howard Brazee wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:25:36 -0500, Ken Koester > wrote: > >> Made even worse by the fact that most people lose the ability to >> hear differences between vowel tones they are accustomed to & >> foreign ones by the time they are 12. That's why few adults learn >> to speak another language with the correct accent or at least, >> accent-free, and why it is much much easier to learn languages when >> you are a young kid. > > > I read of a study made. They took 6 month old Americans and > Japanese and made noises ra-ra-ra-ra-la-ra. When the "la" happened > they did something interesting. The babies learned to look up when > they heard "la". > Right, it's a difference & babies pick up on those. that's how the psych boys figure they're learning about their environments. > They did the same thing for year-old children and the Japanese babies > did not look up when the word changed to "la". They had already > learned that "ra" and "la" were the same and couldn't hear the > difference between them. > > This study fascinates me. How much of the world have I learned to > ignore? > Scary, isn't it? Actually, I was being conservative. The study I read indicated that much of the loss occurs earlier & by age 12, is almost concluded. If you wanna really become bilingual & sound like a native, better do it before you are 6 or better pick better genes (-; Snarkhunter From abcmm at att.net Thu Dec 16 07:01:36 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:01:36 +0000 Subject: FW: Re: stickers Message-ID: <121620041501.1284.41C1A34F000CA62400000504216028130203030C0D0E@att.net> I would suggest we each nominate a list of 3 and let Krystal Tally up the vote..... I would nominate... 1. Got Morganti 2. "Everyone generalize from one example..." I don't know if this would be asking too much but... 3. a Line of Stickers for each house that simply reads... "House House-Name" Since everyone seems to like to pick a house they feel they would belong to... -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: G Wilhelm To: , Subject: Re: stickers Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:37:32 +0000 Here's one vote for it. The hardest part is going to be coming up with a phrase we can all agree on. -- GCW ------ Original Message ------ Received: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:20:52 PM EST From: MedCat7 at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: stickers > Anyone up on the sticker idea? I should be able to get quite a bit for free (not sure on how many). I don't think the shipping cost of a sticker will be more than a friggin' stamp. Let me know. Everyone has to agree on a phrase. Thanks bunches. > -Crystal ^..^ > From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Dec 16 07:11:00 2004 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:11:00 -0500 Subject: If Sethra the Younger invades Fenario In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:18:37 PST." Message-ID: <200412161511.iBGFB0MY012826@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> not to mention that that particular Easterner should be long dead. Khaavren said nothing of surrendering himself to the Easterner's heirs or descendants. > > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > If Sethra the Younger invades the East and invades the part of the East > > that is Fenario, is it Khaavren's duty to surrender himself to the > > current ruler of Fenario? > > I think K offers his body to cover the truce not to guarantee the treaty. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Dec 16 07:13:26 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:13:26 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: (Philip Hart's message of "Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:23:33 -0800 (PST)") References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use > a comma correctly in German? Well, that's an interesting question. I lived in Zurich in 1966-67, and then took 4 years of German in highschool (straight As), and then scored a perfect 800 on the SAT German Achievement test. I don't recall that commas were particularly an issue in German, though. (I've hardly touched it since, so I'm sure I don't have it all straight *now*.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Dec 16 07:15:10 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:15:10 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <41C18E51.2020500@email.ers.usda.gov> (Ken Koester's message of "Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:32:01 -0500") References: <142.3b2894dc.2ef1a163@aol.com> <20041215204911.GA18541@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <00f501c4e2e7$da897220$6351b041@warbi> <41C18E51.2020500@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >>Certainly German and Russian (the two foreign languages I've >>studied at all seriously) have more grammar than English does, it >>takes a little getting used to. >> > > At least as far as German goes, I would flatly disagree with you; I am > certain that English has more grammatical rules to master. The fact > that English is positional & has lost virtually all of its inflections > doesn't mean that it has less in the way of grammar. The fact that I dealt with German as a language learned as an adolescent, not as a child, may be warping my view here. But it seems to me that everything about grammar they taught us in English there was some German equivalent, and then there was about three times that much *additional* stuff that applied only to German, not to English. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com Thu Dec 16 07:26:45 2004 From: tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com (Charlie Arnold) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: If Sethra the Younger invades Fenario In-Reply-To: <200412161511.iBGFB0MY012826@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001801c4e383$aacb7d20$7733a8c0@ansoft.com> True, but I don't think Khaavren would split hairs in his own favor on a point of honor, either. Besides, imagine how enjoyable the plotline would be. Khaavren honor bound to pit himself against Sethra the Younger to defend the east? That'd be a hell of a book. C -----Original Message----- From: Joy Jennifer Nicholson [mailto:jjnichol at MIT.EDU] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:11 AM To: Philip Hart Cc: Dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: If Sethra the Younger invades Fenario not to mention that that particular Easterner should be long dead. Khaavren said nothing of surrendering himself to the Easterner's heirs or descendants. > > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > If Sethra the Younger invades the East and invades the part of the > > East that is Fenario, is it Khaavren's duty to surrender himself to > > the current ruler of Fenario? > > I think K offers his body to cover the truce not to guarantee the > treaty. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Thu Dec 16 07:53:03 2004 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:53:03 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: > From: Ken Koester [mailto:kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:00 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A Linguistic Note > > Howard Brazee wrote: > > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:25:36 -0500, Ken Koester > > wrote: > > > >> Made even worse by the fact that most people lose the ability to > >> hear differences between vowel tones they are accustomed to & > >> foreign ones by the time they are 12. That's why few adults learn > >> to speak another language with the correct accent or at least, > >> accent-free, and why it is much much easier to learn languages when > >> you are a young kid. > > > > > > I read of a study made. They took 6 month old Americans and > > Japanese and made noises ra-ra-ra-ra-la-ra. When the "la" happened > > they did something interesting. The babies learned to look up when > > they heard "la". > > > > They did the same thing for year-old children and the Japanese babies > > did not look up when the word changed to "la". They had already > > learned that "ra" and "la" were the same and couldn't hear the > > difference between them. > > > > This study fascinates me. How much of the world have I learned to > > ignore? > > > Scary, isn't it? Actually, I was being conservative. The study I read > indicated that much of the loss occurs earlier & by age 12, is almost > concluded. If you wanna really become bilingual & sound like a native, > better do it before you are 6 or better pick better genes (-; Tip: Arrange to have a bilingual parent (or two!) My sister-in-law married someone from Holland. Their little girl is getting English in one ear and Dutch in the other. I wish I had been so lucky as a child. From frank at exit.com Thu Dec 16 08:10:17 2004 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:10:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <200412161610.iBGGAHkb070054@realtime.exit.com> Ken Koester wrote: > Made even worse by the fact that most people lose the ability to hear > differences between vowel tones they are accustomed to & foreign ones by > the time they are 12. That's why few adults learn to speak another > language with the correct accent or at least, accent-free, and why it is > much much easier to learn languages when you are a young kid. The cool thing about this is that apparently infants have all the neural structures needed for the acquisition of any human language. After about age three or so, though, unused structures atrophy and disappear while used structures are strengthened and elaborated. So when my (Chinese) wife pronounces "towel" as "tower" it's because she really doesn't have the ability to pronounce that final consonant. (Which I find also fascinating, since the "l" sound is common in Mandarin, just never as a final consonant.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 16 08:26:55 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:26:55 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: stickers Message-ID: <5A5DB4BF.499B6C74.00184D6D@aol.com> I like the idea. As for the third choice though, it would depend on how many I am allowed to do. Maybe only a few house names. -Crystal In a message dated 12/16/2004 10:01:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, abcmm at att.net writes: >I would suggest we each nominate a list of 3 and let Krystal Tally up the vote..... > >I would nominate... > >1. Got Morganti >2. "Everyone generalize from one example..." > >I don't know if this would be asking too much but... > >3. a Line of Stickers for each house that simply reads... "House House-Name" ? > >Since everyone seems to like to pick a house they feel they would belong to... >-------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- >From: G Wilhelm >To: , >Subject: Re: stickers >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:37:32 +0000 > > >Here's one vote for it. The hardest part is going to be coming up with a >phrase we can all agree on. > >-- >GCW > >------ Original Message ------ >Received: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:20:52 PM EST >From: MedCat7 at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: stickers > >> Anyone up on the sticker idea? I should be able to get quite a bit for free >(not sure on how many). I don't think the shipping cost of a sticker will be >more than a friggin' stamp. Let me know. Everyone has to agree on a phrase. >Thanks bunches. >> -Crystal ^..^ >> > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 16 08:52:26 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:52:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <393201c4e2e1$ccbbb870$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > > > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use > > a comma correctly in German? > > Well, that's an interesting question. I lived in Zurich in 1966-67 > [...] I don't recall that commas were particularly an issue in German, > though. [...] An aquaintance is a German German teacher - there was recently a reorganization of the official comma rules (from 108 to 27) and she didn't know a lot of them. There used to be a contest something along the lines of "Write down the dictated front page of the newspaper Dings correctly". The winner was the one who made the fewest errors in punctuation and capitalization and word separation etc. From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 16 12:56:23 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:56:23 -0500 Subject: update Message-ID: <6B3A1EC3.32642828.00184D6D@aol.com> Here is what I have so far for the ideas to put on bumper stickers and what people voted so far. 1. Got Morganti? 1 2."Evertone generalizes..." 2 3.House names (start with one or two) 1 4.I <3 Lady Teldra 1 5."...love, like murder, shouldn't have witnesses." 1 (I didn't throw my vote in and I might not) Please choose one over the above (you don't have to type the whole thing, just the number will do) and sed it to me! Thank you all in advance. -Crystal ^..^ From abcmm at att.net Thu Dec 16 12:59:59 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:59:59 +0000 Subject: FW: update Message-ID: <121620042059.18433.41C1F74E000B9AD600004801216046664803030C0D0E@att.net> #2. -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: MedCat7 at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: update Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:56:57 +0000 Here is what I have so far for the ideas to put on bumper stickers and what people voted so far. 1. Got Morganti? 1 2."Evertone generalizes..." 2 3.House names (start with one or two) 1 4.I <3 Lady Teldra 1 5."...love, like murder, shouldn't have witnesses." 1 (I didn't throw my vote in and I might not) Please choose one over the above (you don't have to type the whole thing, just the number will do) and sed it to me! Thank you all in advance. -Crystal ^..^ From asr at ufl.edu Thu Dec 16 19:32:42 2004 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:32:42 -0500 Subject: Sorcery and Loyalty at the End of the Interregnum. Message-ID: <200412170332.iBH3WgaA204108@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> I'm working on a RPG campaign which I plan on positioning at the end of the Interregnum. I'm using the HERO game system (as in CHAMPIONS). My implementation has run into a few interesting questions: Spoilers by implication, I guess S P O I L S P A C E 1) What kinds of things would be within the capacity of pre-empire sorcery, but not of imperial sorcery? Seems to me that most things you could do with one, you could do with the other, excepting specific meta-sorcery which imperial sorcery can't hack. 2) Is every pre-empire sorcerer also an imperial sorcerer? Since the Orb is designed to aid control, seems to me that everyone who can wield raw chaos would also be a skilled imperial socerer. Further, someone who has developed the pre-empire skills would be an unsually puissant imperial sorcerer. (viz. Aliera, Adron, etc.) 3) Does citizenship imply loyalty? Can Zerika keep track of "everything" in these first days of the new Empire? Clearly, Imperial subjects are capable of treason. Clearly, Zerika can't just read minds. Seems to me that someone born before the Interregnum (and therefore familliar with citizenship) who is alive at Zerika's emergence could accept citizenship, yet go right on working against the good of the Empire. Our dragons in loyal (ha) opposition wouldn't do that because it would be beneath their dignity; but someone with a more flexible sense of honor would certainly be capable of this. But Zerika has many many fewer leigemen at the outset. Maybe she can dead minds, they're just so damn MANY of them now. Might she be able to winkle out opposition in a field of only a few tens of thousands of new citizens? Grita does not do this. Is that because she can't, because of 3), or because it's not worth the effort, because her pre-empire skills don't really relate to imperial sorcery, thus denying 2) ? Or maybe it just didn't occur to her, or maybe she's got some dregs of a sense of honor. Or, or, or... - Allen S. Rout From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Dec 16 21:44:50 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:44:50 EST Subject: stickers Message-ID: <54.39cb1195.2ef3cc52@aol.com> MedCat7.aol.com wrote Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:13:47 -0500 >The web site I told him to put in smaller font is the Dream Cafe one. I hope >that is ok because I couldn't remember which one was the one it was supposed to be. Steve Brust wrote on Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole >thing. Steve Brust wrote on Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:22:03 -0800 >I suppose I could send email to Mr. Brown and ask him. >I know that I certainly wouldn't do this without asking him. Eek, Crystal, you picked the wrong one. From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Dec 17 05:40:09 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:40:09 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <6386DA50.078CB131.00184D6D@aol.com> That's ok. He didn't do it yet. He slacks in class and found out it isn't due until next week! Which one am I doing? -Crystal ^..^ In a message dated 12/17/2004 12:44:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >MedCat7.aol.com wrote Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:13:47 -0500 > >>The web site I told him to put in smaller font is the Dream Cafe one. I hope >>that is ok because I couldn't remember which one was the one it was supposed >to be. > >Steve Brust wrote on Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 > >>However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dream Cafe" is >>something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole >>thing. > >Steve Brust wrote on Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:22:03 -0800 > >>I suppose I could send email to Mr. Brown and ask him. > >>I know that I certainly wouldn't do this without asking him. > > > >Eek, Crystal, you picked the wrong one. > From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Dec 17 06:23:29 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:23:29 -0500 Subject: new update Message-ID: <6E88FBD4.7F418E65.00184D6D@aol.com> First off, I want to thank everyone who voted so far and those who want to vote, but didn't get to it yet. The following pole now stands at: 1.Got Morganti? 4 2."Everyone generalizes..." 10 3.House name 2 4.I <3 Lady Teldra 2 5."...love, like murder, shouldn't have witnesses." 3 (NOTE: some votes are secondary votes) I have just found out that bumper sticker would be too much to do at this point for my original source. However, if I buy a roll of bumper sticker paper from my brother's school, he said he will do some. So far, 18 people have voted (3 extra votes on the side). It looks like #2 is winning by a long shot. I will give that one to him to do for how ever many people want them. Depending on how much the roll costs will depend on how much I will ask from each person (if it's pretty cheep cost will be no problem, think of them as late Christmas [I don't want any arguments here] gifts). If he has time, I can *maybe* do a few others. If you are intersted if getting a sticker, and if you feel comfortable, e-mail me a mailing address. I will e-mail you when I have put the sticker in the mail. (NOTE: ths is a high school level projet, the sticker will be just plain letters) Thank you all again. -Crystal ^..^ From lqmiller at ev1.net Fri Dec 17 06:10:47 2004 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:10:47 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <200412161610.iBGGAHkb070054@realtime.exit.com> References: <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20041217080954.01eea310@mail.ev1.net> At 08:10 AM 12/16/2004 -0800, Frank Mayhar wrote: >The cool thing about this is that apparently infants have all the neural >structures needed for the acquisition of any human language. After about >age three or so, though, unused structures atrophy and disappear while >used structures are strengthened and elaborated. Extremely excellent book: "The Language Instinct" by Steven Pinker. From mklahn at mac.com Fri Dec 17 07:25:23 2004 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:25:23 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20041217080954.01eea310@mail.ev1.net> References: <41C18CD0.3040705@email.ers.usda.gov> <5.2.1.1.0.20041217080954.01eea310@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <11939356.1103297123697.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Friday, December 17, 2004, at 08:36AM, Louann Miller wrote: >At 08:10 AM 12/16/2004 -0800, Frank Mayhar wrote: >>The cool thing about this is that apparently infants have all the neural >>structures needed for the acquisition of any human language. After about >>age three or so, though, unused structures atrophy and disappear while >>used structures are strengthened and elaborated. > >Extremely excellent book: "The Language Instinct" by Steven Pinker. While the book is excellent, take it with a grain of salt. There is counter-evidence to the "semantic bootstrapping" theories of Pinker, and he's quite an innatist/neo-Chomskian. I'm not a linguist (but I was a speech scientist, so I'm not a complete hack), but from what I remember from my child language acquisition classes (though this wasn't my specialty), a balanced environment/biological origin is much more likely to be correct with any system as complicated as human language. I'm not saying that Pinker isn't at least partially correct, but maybe he's a little too narrowly focused. Matthew From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Dec 17 07:45:25 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:45:25 -0500 Subject: new update In-Reply-To: <6E88FBD4.7F418E65.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <6E88FBD4.7F418E65.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41C2FF15.1060707@email.ers.usda.gov> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >First off, I want to thank everyone who voted so far and those who want to vote, but didn't get to it yet. The following pole now stands at: > >1.Got Morganti? 4 >2."Everyone generalizes..." 10 > > Um, well, I don't do bumper stickers but if I did, I'd go with #1. #2 strikes me as too long to put on a sticker & make readable. Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Dec 17 07:49:09 2004 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:49:09 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <5510F348.066822C9.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <5510F348.066822C9.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41C2FFF5.6060404@email.ers.usda.gov> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >"Oteai wa doko des ka?"-"Where is the bathroom?"-Japanese. The most fun phrase to say! >-Crystal ^..^ > > > I dunno, I always liked "aji ga warui" myself ("taste is bad"--beloved of Go players. Only beginners actually say "atari", unless you are trying to trick your opponent (-: ). 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zerika (at) gmail.com (email) Zerika zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From dustysayers at earthlink.net Sat Dec 18 07:30:11 2004 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: new update In-Reply-To: <6E88FBD4.7F418E65.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <6E88FBD4.7F418E65.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41C44D03.9020503@earthlink.net> One more vote for option 2, please. MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >First off, I want to thank everyone who voted so far and those who want to vote, but didn't get to it yet. The following pole now stands at: > >1.Got Morganti? 4 >2."Everyone generalizes..." 10 >3.House name 2 >4.I <3 Lady Teldra 2 >5."...love, like murder, shouldn't have witnesses." 3 > >(NOTE: some votes are secondary votes) > >I have just found out that bumper sticker would be too much to do at this point for my original source. However, if I buy a roll of bumper sticker paper from my brother's school, he said he will do some. >So far, 18 people have voted (3 extra votes on the side). It looks like #2 is winning by a long shot. I will give that one to him to do for how ever many people want them. >Depending on how much the roll costs will depend on how much I will ask from each person (if it's pretty cheep cost will be no problem, think of them as late Christmas [I don't want any arguments here] gifts). If he has time, I can *maybe* do a few others. >If you are intersted if getting a sticker, and if you feel comfortable, e-mail me a mailing address. I will e-mail you when I have put the sticker in the mail. >(NOTE: ths is a high school level projet, the sticker will be just plain letters) >Thank you all again. >-Crystal ^..^ > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Give thy thoughts no tongue, Nor any unproportioned thought his act.' --William Shakespeare, Hamlet From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Sat Dec 18 07:35:17 2004 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sorcery and Loyalty at the End of the Interregnum. In-Reply-To: <200412170332.iBH3WgaA204108@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <20041218153517.25388.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> S P O I L E R > 3) Does citizenship imply loyalty? Can Zerika keep > track of "everything" in > these first days of the new Empire? > > Clearly, Imperial subjects are capable of treason. > Clearly, Zerika can't just > read minds. Seems to me that someone born before > the Interregnum (and > therefore familliar with citizenship) who is alive > at Zerika's emergence could > accept citizenship, yet go right on working against > the good of the Empire. > > Our dragons in loyal (ha) opposition wouldn't do > that because it would be > beneath their dignity; but someone with a more > flexible sense of honor would > certainly be capable of this. I would think that the Orb can judge the sincerity of people when they accept citizenship. Before and after the Interregnum, Dragaerans are born into their house and citizenship, and I would doubt that any infant would have treasonous thoughts. The exception, of course, is people like Vlad's father, who buy entry into a house. In the case of the Dragaeran's gaining citizenship immediately after the orbs return, the orb would judge their adult minds, motivations, and sincerity. From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 08:47:24 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:47:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <121320041653.29058.41BDC91F0005130400007182216028074803030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: <20041219164725.54115.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > Line of shirts with an Artist's rendering of each creature associated with > each house. ideally each shirt in the primary color of the house depicted. > This could also be done on Coffee Mugs, Mouse Pads...Et All... except the yendi. they wear other houses' shirts, or no house shirt at all. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Dec 19 09:47:53 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 09:47:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041219164725.54115.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041219164725.54115.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > > > Line of shirts with an Artist's rendering of each creature associated with > > each house. ideally each shirt in the primary color of the house depicted. > > This could also be done on Coffee Mugs, Mouse Pads...Et All... > > except the yendi. they wear other houses' shirts, or no house shirt at all. Or perhaps they use some Daliesque negative image trick... From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Dec 20 09:19:21 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:19:21 -0500 Subject: next update Message-ID: <4392F780.572E3EA1.00184D6D@aol.com> Hi Everyone, I am closing the poll. Here are the final results! 1.Got Morganti? 5 2."Everyone generalizes..." 13 3.House Name 2 4.I <3 Lady Teldra 2 5."...love, like murder, shouldn't have witnesses." 3 Looks like we have a winner! #2 will be on a bumper sticker as soon as I can find a store that sells them (I get board at lunch, so I am hoping to find them quickly). I was really hoping for #5 to win, but alas **sigh**, majority rules. I have yet another request; which website are we putting on the stickers? and if someone could please give me the exact quote (thank you in advance), I would greatly appreciate it! -Crystal ^..^ From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Dec 20 12:05:41 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:05:41 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <11467826.3F39294F.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 12/20/2004 12:53:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 writes: >This is where I am at so far (you guys seem the most interested so you get the best updates)... > >I e-mail a company who makes bumpersticker (and other car decals) asking if he sold just blank paper. If not, i will continue to look elsewhere. Also, my brother might not be able to use the bumpersticker thing at scool for too much longer. But there is great news (no I didn't switch my car insurance to Gieco [sp])! The company that does the stickers does them wicked cheep! For a 3 3/4"x15" sticker w/ 1 color, it costs (I believe, the site was a little confusing) $1.42 for 125 stickers! It costs $.90 for any additional color. So if I can't do them for free, I can do them for cheep. If you guys want to split the cost with me (yeah .35 for a sticker plus .33 for a stamp) I will welcome it. I have a crap ton of loans to pay, but I don't think $2.74 will hurt me much, but if you really want to, I won't turn you down (it's not like you have to steal the Jhereg treasury to do it ;o). Anyway, we are on our way to spreading the word about Steven K. Z. Brust! >-Crystal ^..^ >p.s. Thanks for reading this. I know I talk too much! > Are you sure it's not $1.42 *per sticker* if you order 125 stickers( about $200.00)??? $1.42 for 125 stickers seems soooo cheap I'm suspicious!!!! You know, they might sell blank bumper stickers at Staples or Office Max. If one of us has a laser printer( I don't) we could just print them ourselves... -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Dec 20 14:09:08 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:09:08 -0500 Subject: stickers Message-ID: <1575FE08.329FC352.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 12/20/2004 3:05:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 12/20/2004 12:53:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 writes: > >>This is where I am at so far (you guys seem the most interested so you get the best updates)... >> >>I e-mail a company who makes bumpersticker (and other car decals) asking if he sold just blank paper. If not, i will continue to look elsewhere. Also, my brother might not be able to use the bumpersticker thing at scool for too much longer. But there is great news (no I didn't switch my car insurance to Gieco [sp])! The company that does the stickers does them wicked cheep! For a 3 3/4"x15" sticker w/ 1 color, it costs (I believe, the site was a little confusing) $1.42 for 125 stickers! It costs $.90 for any additional color. So if I can't do them for free, I can do them for cheep. If you guys want to split the cost with me (yeah .35 for a sticker plus .33 for a stamp) I will welcome it. I have a crap ton of loans to pay, but I don't think $2.74 will hurt me much, but if you really want to, I won't turn you down (it's not like you have to steal the Jhereg treasury to do it ;o). Anyway, we are on our way to spreading the word about Steven K. Z. Brust! >>-Crystal ^..^ >>p.s. Thanks for reading this. I know I talk too much! >> > >Are you sure it's not $1.42 *per sticker* if you order 125 stickers( about $200.00)??? ?$1.42 for 125 stickers seems soooo cheap I'm suspicious!!!! > >You know, they might sell blank bumper stickers at Staples or Office Max. If one of us has a laser printer( I don't) we could just print them ourselves... >-- >John D. Barbato, O.D. > Like I said, the site was a little confusing! It didn't say exactly what the price was for. I guess I was being too hopeful. -C ^..^ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Dec 20 20:03:20 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:03:20 EST Subject: next update Message-ID: <97.552ea3a7.2ef8fa88@aol.com> MedCat7.aol.com wrote on Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:19:21 -0500 >2."Everyone generalizes..." 13 >I have yet another request; which website are we putting on the stickers? and >if someone could please give me the exact quote (thank you in advance), I would >greatly appreciate it! Hi, Vlad says "I guess. I'm generalizing from one example, here, but everyone generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Issola paperback, Chapter 14, page 211. When Steven Brust and David Dyer-Bennet were writing about using websites, they were talking about the T-shirt idea. Steven Brust said no to his website until he can talk or email the originator of the name. I added the *s. Steve Brust wrote on Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 >However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dr**m C**e" is >something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole >thing. Steve Brust wrote on Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:22:03 -0800 >I suppose I could send email to Mr. Brown and ask him. >I know that I certainly wouldn't do this without asking him. David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:37:23 -0600 >(I'm actually thinking in terms of pointing to dragaera.info rather >than dr**mc**e.com, but they point to each other anyway, so that's >more a second-order difference.) I do not remember Steven or David writing anything about the bumper sticker or sticker idea at all. Bye. Linda G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 21 06:56:43 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:56:43 -0500 Subject: next update Message-ID: <42B7C955.34BCF452.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >MedCat7.aol.com ?wrote on Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:19:21 -0500 > >>2."Everyone generalizes..." ?13 > >>I have yet another request; which website are we putting on the stickers? >and >>if someone could please give me the exact quote (thank you in advance), I >would >>greatly appreciate it! > >Hi, > >Vlad says "I guess. ?I'm generalizing from one example, here, but >everyone generalizes from one example. ?At least, I do." > >Issola paperback, Chapter 14, page 211. > >When Steven Brust and David Dyer-Bennet were writing about using websites, >they were talking about the T-shirt idea. Steven Brust said no to his website >until he can talk or email the originator of the name. ?I added the *s. > >Steve Brust wrote on Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:56:44 -0800 > >>However, I do feel obligated to point out that "The Dr**m C**e" is >>something I stole from Greg Brown, which might put a kabosh on the whole >>thing. > >Steve Brust wrote on Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:22:03 -0800 > >>I suppose I could send email to Mr. Brown and ask him. > >>I know that I certainly wouldn't do this without asking him. > > >David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:37:23 -0600 > >>(I'm actually thinking in terms of pointing to dragaera.info rather >>than dr**mc**e.com, but they point to each other anyway, so that's >>more a second-order difference.) > >I do not remember Steven or David writing anything about the bumper >sticker or sticker idea at all. > >Bye. > >Linda G. > There you have it then; no website on the bumpersticker! If it is ok with everyone (for those who acctually want the sticker) the sticker will read: "Everyone genralizes from one example. At least I do." **smaller font** _Issola_, Chp 14 That way, (interested) people will wonder what "Issola" is and if they remember, they can look it up on line or something and buy the book. If anyone has anything else to say (unless it's to shoot down the idea), please let me know. -C ^..^ From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 21 07:18:55 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:18:55 -0500 Subject: sorry Message-ID: <370740E7.7698097C.00184D6D@aol.com> I am sorry if that sounded mean. -Crystal ^..^ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 21 08:07:09 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:07:09 -0700 Subject: sorry References: <370740E7.7698097C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: sorry > I am sorry if that sounded mean. > -Crystal ^..^ > Be careful, showing weakness here is almost as dangerous as it would be in Dragaera. . . . . anyone gets mouthy, channel your inner Jhereg, sneer and tell 'em there is a neat inscription on your dagger you want them to read, and you would be happy to show it to them. BTW, Your doing a great job, thanks for all your hard work! Jeff G. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Dec 21 08:13:52 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:13:52 +0100 Subject: sorry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hm, it's strange, but I didn't get that original message, and this isn't the first time either. Are there any known bugs in the mailing list? BTW, this is the first dragaera mail I've gotten since Dec 19... Regards >From: "Jeff G" >To: >Subject: Re: sorry >Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:07:09 -0700 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:18 AM >Subject: sorry > > > > I am sorry if that sounded mean. > > -Crystal ^..^ > > > >Be careful, showing weakness here is almost as dangerous as it would be in >Dragaera. . . . . anyone gets mouthy, channel your inner Jhereg, sneer and >tell 'em there is a neat inscription on your dagger you want them to read, >and you would be happy to show it to them. > > >BTW, Your doing a great job, thanks for all your hard work! > >Jeff G. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 21 08:23:15 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:23:15 -0700 Subject: sorry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:13:52 +0100, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Hm, it's strange, but I didn't get that original message, and this isn't > the first time either. Are there any known bugs in the mailing list? > BTW, this is the first dragaera mail I've gotten since Dec 19... > > Regards I wonder if a spam filter messed up something. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Dec 21 08:56:41 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:56:41 +0100 Subject: sorry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Howard Brazee" >To: "dragaera at dragaera.info" >Subject: Re: sorry >Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:23:15 -0700 > >On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:13:52 +0100, Martin Wohlert > wrote: > >>Hm, it's strange, but I didn't get that original message, and this isn't >>the first time either. Are there any known bugs in the mailing list? BTW, >>this is the first dragaera mail I've gotten since Dec 19... >> >>Regards > >I wonder if a spam filter messed up something. > I'm using hotmail's web interface thingy, and that has a special spam folder, and I've never seen a dragaera mail there. :s _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 21 09:01:54 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:01:54 -0500 Subject: sorry Message-ID: <0F061D5B.4BA5ABA9.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:07:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff G" writes: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:18 AM >Subject: sorry > > >> I am sorry if that sounded mean. >> -Crystal ^..^ >> > >Be careful, showing weakness here is almost as dangerous as it would be in >Dragaera. . . . . anyone gets mouthy, channel your inner Jhereg, sneer and >tell 'em there is a neat inscription on your dagger you want them to read, >and you would be happy to show it to them. > > >BTW, Your doing a great job, thanks for all your hard work! > >Jeff G. > I know I am far from an Issola, but I hate to be mean. Thanks for the advice! And I enjoy all the "hard work." My new job has no labor and almost no hard thinking. -C ^..^ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Dec 21 22:05:14 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:05:14 EST Subject: SKZB / Swag ideas / cafepress.com Premium shop Message-ID: <192.35c07ad5.2efa689a@aol.com> Hi David and others, So Sethra Lavode is being published in paperback next year and I need some Lavode stuff...but everything has to be in black... So I was looking around cafepress.com and searched for black t-shirts and they have a few. I am wondering if they are sold only under the Premium shops. I would like a black t-shirt (short-sleeve, woman's t-shirt) with word "LAVODE" in white on back and "LAVODE" in white on the front pocket. Website dragaera.info and/or Steven Brust's name on pocket and/or back in smaller font. Or without pocket if necessary. If possible, "white Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw" above word LAVODE. To make this happen, I am willing to send a check to keep the Premium shop running (either $4.99 or the $7.00 David mentioned) for 1 month. David, just tell me who to write the check out to and where to mail it or whatever. Also need a black book/tote bag similar design or maybe with Sethra Lavode written on it. Or a white tote almost all covered in black. To make this happen, I am willing to send a check to keep the premium shop running (either $4.99 or the $7.00 David mentioned) for 1 month. Cool tile boxes...just what you need to keep a vial of the blood of a goddess in. Maybe a poster of Stephen Hickman's art from Jhereg cover or Dragon cover with Loiosh's name above it. The black t-shirts that the search brought up did not have a lot of color in them. If it was possible, I would like a black t-shirt (short-sleeve, woman's t-shirt) with word "Loiosh" above Stephen Hickman's artwork from Jhereg and/or Dragon, "Loiosh" and artwork on front pocket. Website dragaera.info and/or Steven Brust's name on pocket and/or back in smaller font. If possible, Stephen Hickman's name near artwork to show that this was authorized by the artist. To make this happen, I am willing to send a check to keep the premium shop running (either $4.99 or the $7.00 David mentioned) for 1 month. ****************************** So three months. Anyone else? ****************************** Bye. Linda G. "white Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw against black" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eighth, page 103 "The earliest authentic records of Sethra predate the founding of the Lavodes, and consist of a rough drawing of her device, which appears to have remained unchanged throughout her life, consisting of white Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw against black--unquestionably the simplest device in use at the time, and the most unadorned on record from any time, saving only the Silver Sword on Black of the most ancient line of Kieron the Conqueror himself. In the oldest drawings of her device, a motto is shown at the top, but not only is the language one which no scholar has penetrated, there are even a few unfamiliar symbols, as if the very alphabet in which it was written were ancient and forgotten. This is certainly possible, and there has been endless speculation on the subject, though to no conclusion. Sethra has, by all reports, been silent on the subject, even to those few who have been close enough to be considered her friends." From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 22 07:05:15 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:05:15 -0500 Subject: SKZB / Swag ideas / cafepress.com Premium shop Message-ID: <58829015.63A41412.00184D6D@aol.com> I can't wait for _Sethra Lavode_ to come out in paper back. I can't find *any* of the other books hard copy. It's ok by me though. It's easier to take a book in a tree if it's paperback! -Crystal ^..^ In a message dated 12/22/2004 1:05:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >Hi David and others, > >So Sethra Lavode is being published in paperback next year and I need >some Lavode stuff...but everything has to be in black... ? > >So I was looking around cafepress.com and searched for black >t-shirts and they have a few. ?I am wondering if they are sold >only under the Premium shops. ? > >I would like a black t-shirt (short-sleeve, woman's t-shirt) with >word "LAVODE" in white on back and "LAVODE" in white on the front >pocket. Website dragaera.info and/or Steven Brust's name on pocket >and/or back in smaller font. ?Or without pocket if necessary. > >If possible, "white Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw" ?above word LAVODE. > >To make this happen, I am willing to send a check to keep the >Premium shop running (either $4.99 or the $7.00 David mentioned) for >1 month. ?David, just tell me who to write the check out to and where >to mail it or whatever. > >Also need a black book/tote bag similar design or maybe with >Sethra Lavode written on it. Or a white tote almost all covered >in black. ? > >To make this happen, I am willing to send a check to keep the >premium shop running (either $4.99 or the $7.00 David mentioned) for >1 month. > >Cool tile boxes...just what you need to keep a vial of the blood >of a goddess in. > >Maybe a poster of Stephen Hickman's art from Jhereg cover or Dragon >cover with Loiosh's name above it. > >The black t-shirts that the search brought up did not have a lot of >color in them. ?If it was possible, I would like a black t-shirt >(short-sleeve, woman's t-shirt) with word "Loiosh" above Stephen >Hickman's artwork from Jhereg and/or Dragon, "Loiosh" and artwork >on front pocket. ?Website dragaera.info and/or Steven Brust's name >on pocket and/or back in smaller font. If possible, Stephen Hickman's >name near artwork to show that this was authorized by the artist. > >To make this happen, I am willing to send a check to keep the >premium shop running (either $4.99 or the $7.00 David mentioned) for >1 month. > >****************************** ? ? ? ? >So three months. ?Anyone else? ? >****************************** > >Bye. > >Linda G. > >"white Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw against black" > >Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eighth, page 103 > >"The earliest authentic records of Sethra predate the founding of the >Lavodes, and consist of a rough drawing of her device, which appears >to have remained unchanged throughout her life, consisting of white >Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw against black--unquestionably the >simplest device in use at the time, and the most unadorned on >record from any time, saving only the Silver Sword on Black of the >most ancient line of Kieron the Conqueror himself. ?In the oldest >drawings of her device, a motto is shown at the top, but not only >is the language one which no scholar has penetrated, there are even >a few unfamiliar symbols, as if the very alphabet in which it was >written were ancient and forgotten. ?This is certainly possible, >and there has been endless speculation on the subject, though >to no conclusion. ?Sethra has, by all reports, been silent on the >subject, even to those few who have been close enough to be >considered her friends." > From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 07:15:35 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 07:15:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041215194026.GA11855@debill.org> Message-ID: <20041222151535.38485.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- erik at debill.org wrote: > I once had a hilarious conversation with a young man from France who > was desperately trying to find out what hotel my sister was staying in > on a visit to Paris. He'd somehow managed to track down her home > number in Texas. The catch was that neither of us spoke the other's > language and we had to use Spanish. It worked, but the whole > situation was pretty funny. One I was living in New York City, a Polish penpal of mine came to visit. We corresponded in fluent Esperanto, and we conversed in the same. But when I accompanied him to the Polish consulate we had a strange triangular conversation. I spoke no Polish, he spoke no English, and the consular official spoke no Esperanto. So whenever any one of us spoke, either he or the one who understood him had to interpret for the third person. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Dec 22 07:26:05 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 07:26:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > Actually, I'm unaware of such a consensus. I'd say Latin, French, German, > Dutch, probably Hebrew and Greek and Russian are more difficult than > English; Italian (and more so Spanish) a bit easier. For whom? For you, of course, and maybe many other anglophones, but that ain't the world. > But for > communicating with someone at the 500-word vocab level I think English is > easiest by a good deal. Ah. 500 words. Which words, and how do you use them? Let's see... a good deal = a bargain. English is easiest ... because of ... a low price? Also a lot of modern words are more comfortable > in English. What does that mean? I assume that you have asked the words? Anyway, the consensus among Europeans I know is that English > was easiest to learn of the languages they know. At last, data, even if anecdotal. > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use > a comma correctly in German? Talk to an Italian from a small town? As a foreigner, talk to an American or a Britisher from a small town, say, in New England or the Deep South or Texas or the Scottish Highlands? Speak > French well enough not to get Englished in Paris? Keep gender/person > references straight while drunk in whatever non-English language? Or in English. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 22 07:46:25 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:46:25 -0700 Subject: SKZB / Swag ideas / cafepress.com Premium shop In-Reply-To: <58829015.63A41412.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <58829015.63A41412.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:05:15 -0500, wrote: > I can't wait for _Sethra Lavode_ to come out in paper back. I couldn't either. So obviously I didn't. > I can't find *any* of the other books hard copy. It's ok by me though. > It's easier to take a book in a tree if it's paperback! > -Crystal ^..^ I bought replacements for all of my Vlad books that I only had in paper in 3 trade volumes. But those are hardback sized, while the originals are on the wall with paperbacks. It puts them together with my hardbounds though. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From casey at the-bat.net Wed Dec 22 08:02:31 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:02:31 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark suggested: > As a foreigner, talk to an American or a Britisher from a > small town, say, in New England or the Deep South or > Texas or the Scottish Highlands? Heck. I'm no foreigner to the English language and I can understand most non-native speakers that I encounter, but give me someone with one of the more impenetrable British Isles accents and I am likely to say 'hunh?' a lot. Then again, I suppose some of those people are Gaelic speakers first and English second. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 22 08:30:18 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:30:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > Anyway, the consensus among Europeans I know is that English > > was easiest to learn of the languages they know. > > At last, data, even if anecdotal. Look, I've (at least) twice proposed on this list a clear way to determine language difficulty, and from the resident linguist(s) have heard nothing - not a scholarly paper showing the suggestion is naive and wrong, not a description of the actual method or why the whole question is silly, not a rank-ordering of estimated difficulty, zilch. Compared to a monoglot I know a lot about [European] languages, having read books in six of them, having lived in non-English speaking countries for four years, and having a majority of my friends being non-native-English speakers - but compared to a linguist I know very little - but there's light under the lamppost. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 22 09:13:21 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:13:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: happy solstice etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A bad time for assassins (everyone's home) and a bad time for internet connections (everyone's home [folks staying at home with broadband or visiting parents with broadband ignore this]), but hopefully otherwise a good time for Dragaera list readers. - Philip From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 22 09:36:04 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:36:04 -0700 Subject: happy solstice etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:13:21 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: > A bad time for assassins (everyone's home) and a bad time for internet > connections (everyone's home [folks staying at home with broadband or > visiting parents with broadband ignore this]), but hopefully otherwise a > good time for Dragaera list readers. > > - Philip > I got my first grandchild on the solsice, 5 years ago. His mother agreed that it was the longest night of the year. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 11:54:04 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:54:04 -0600 Subject: happy solstice etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:13:21 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: > A bad time for assassins (everyone's home) and a bad time for internet > connections (everyone's home [folks staying at home with broadband or > visiting parents with broadband ignore this]), but hopefully otherwise a > good time for Dragaera list readers. > > - Philip Merry (freakin') Christmas from your resident Vlad-fan maverick gamer Christian wannabe writer guy, (and Happy Turning of the Julian Calendar. 8 ) I'm grateful that Steven has stuck with the writing thing through thin and thinner, and I'm grateful for all the characters spawed by his reckless, authentic creativity, both on the page and off, (a cheerfully left-handed compliment to one and all). Regards from Wisconsin, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 22 13:54:13 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:54:13 -0500 Subject: happy solstice etc. Message-ID: <3821E5FE.0276FE47.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 12/22/2004 2:54:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Johne Cook writes: >On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:13:21 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart > wrote: >> A bad time for assassins (everyone's home) and a bad time for internet >> connections (everyone's home [folks staying at home with broadband or >> visiting parents with broadband ignore this]), but hopefully otherwise a >> good time for Dragaera list readers. >> >> - Philip > >Merry (freakin') Christmas from your resident Vlad-fan maverick gamer >Christian wannabe writer guy, (and Happy Turning of the Julian >Calendar. ?8 ) > >I'm grateful that Steven has stuck with the writing thing through thin >and thinner, and I'm grateful for all the characters spawed by his >reckless, authentic creativity, both on the page and off, (a >cheerfully left-handed compliment to one and all). > >Regards from Wisconsin, >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? johne (phy) cook > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?wisconsin, usa >johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.phywriter.com >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 22 13:56:27 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:56:27 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: happy solstice etc. Message-ID: <10223485.3799B7C2.00184D6D@aol.com> Oops. That wasn't supposed to happen. Anyway, Merry Christmas everybody! -Crystal ^..^ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Re: happy solstice etc. Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:54:13 -0500 Size: 1640 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041222/519aca53/attachment.mht From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Dec 23 07:13:43 2004 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:13:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: Re: happy solstice etc. In-Reply-To: <10223485.3799B7C2.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <10223485.3799B7C2.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: @> Oops. That wasn't supposed to happen. Anyway, Merry Christmas everybody! Merry XMas, everybody. May Santa's missiles fail to seek your heat, and may his machine gun run out of bullets before he gets to your house. From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 23 07:14:49 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:49 -0500 Subject: sky pirate Message-ID: <6CFD3E08.6A2C7689.00184D6D@aol.com> I just read chp 1 of John's _Sky Pirate_. I like it so far. If nobody read it yet, you should. I've been reading it at lunch, but I have nothing to do today at work, so I finished chp 1. Great job John! -Crystal ^..^ From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Dec 23 07:49:53 2004 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:49:53 +0000 Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust Message-ID: http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Dec 23 07:59:39 2004 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:59:39 -0800 Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0a9301c4e908$68b4b520$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html > Well, now we know how to serve him up when he discorporates. Interesting to see an author define himself in terms of food. From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 08:23:59 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:23:59 -0600 Subject: sky pirate In-Reply-To: <6CFD3E08.6A2C7689.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <6CFD3E08.6A2C7689.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:49 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > I just read chp 1 of John's _Sky Pirate_. I like it so far. If nobody read it yet, you should. I've been reading it at lunch, but I have nothing to do today at work, so I finished chp 1. Great job John! > -Crystal ^..^ Thanks, Crystal. I hope you like it (knowing that it's a very rough draft of a first novel written in thirty days in stolen moments). ; ) I'm at the stage where I am second-guessing myself about nearly every element of that manuscript, but I had a good time writing it, and I have a number of ideas what I'd do differently in retrospect. I'm considering reworking it to revisit my original idea (introducing an actual pirate in the cast as Capt. Cooper Flynn appears to be more Capt. Jack Aubrey than Capt. Jack Sparrow). With that said, what I'm doing with the novel right now is exactly nothing. I'm letting it sit for six weeks before picking it back up again (as suggested by Stephen King in his great little book _On Writing_). Deep Magic has a writing challenge for February that looks intriguing, telling the story of a romance from the perspective of the one hearing the tale being one of the two participants from long ago. It's of the thousand-word-or-less sort of challenge, and I have until Jan. 10th to turn it in. I'm going to take a whack at that and then will return to the novel with something close to fresh eyes. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 08:25:21 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:25:21 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: happy solstice etc. In-Reply-To: References: <10223485.3799B7C2.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:13:43 -0500 (EST), John Klein wrote: > Merry XMas, everybody. May Santa's missiles fail to seek your heat, and > may his machine gun run out of bullets before he gets to your house. Is that a Santa Bot reference? ; ) http://www.gotfuturama.com/Information/Encyc-88-Santa_Bot/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 23 08:40:49 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:40:49 -0700 Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust References: <0a9301c4e908$68b4b520$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust > > http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html > > > > Well, now we know how to serve him up when he discorporates. Interesting to > see an author define himself in terms of food. > > > > > Hmm, lots of onions, I imagine some saut?ed and others added later so they are crisp. No ginger there, I was expecting that. I know that with the amount I consume, it has become an appreciable percentage of my biomass. Jeff G. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Dec 23 08:44:25 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:44:25 -0600 Subject: SKZB / Swag ideas / cafepress.com Premium shop In-Reply-To: <192.35c07ad5.2efa689a@aol.com> (FRIEDA2133@aol.com's message of "Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:05:14 EST") References: <192.35c07ad5.2efa689a@aol.com> Message-ID: Interesting idea, to have a premium shop just for a few months, to allow the greater variety of slogans and the additional items like (it has been said) black shirts. I'll look into it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 09:04:18 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:04:18 -0600 Subject: SKZB / Swag ideas / cafepress.com Premium shop In-Reply-To: References: <192.35c07ad5.2efa689a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:44:25 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Interesting idea, to have a premium shop just for a few months, to > allow the greater variety of slogans and the additional items like (it > has been said) black shirts. I'll look into it. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , That sounds great. Thanks, David. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 23 09:15:56 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:15:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust Message-ID: <200412231715.iBNHFutN024461@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> > http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html Hmmm... Anyone else get the impression Steve likes onions? Maybe it's just me. Krager says life is like an onion. But what does he know? :) Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 23 10:40:50 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:40:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations Message-ID: <200412231840.iBNIeotN022854@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> With the sheer volume of good taste on this list, I thought I'd ask for some opinions. I am planning on making a dinner for some friends next week, and have a dish in mind, but I feel it's not quite enough. The dish is a chicken, apple, and walnut salad with a sweet curry dressing (made with honey). (And yes, anyone who would like the recipe, I'm willing to share.:) Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? It goes really well with scones, but that's more of a luncheon meal. I'm thinking my Sherry Cake for dessert as well (and an Over-21 Sherry Cake, to boot!). Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. Merry Holidays to everyone! ChrisO From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 23 11:24:50 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:24:50 EST Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations Message-ID: <20.3ada8b5c.2efc7582@aol.com> In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:41:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: With the sheer volume of good taste on this list, I thought I'd ask for some opinions. I am planning on making a dinner for some friends next week, and have a dish in mind, but I feel it's not quite enough. The dish is a chicken, apple, and walnut salad with a sweet curry dressing (made with honey). (And yes, anyone who would like the recipe, I'm willing to share.:) Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? It goes really well with scones, but that's more of a luncheon meal. I'm thinking my Sherry Cake for dessert as well (and an Over-21 Sherry Cake, to boot!). Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. Merry Holidays to everyone! ChrisO Walnut crusted Salmon or Lemon chicken. I'd keep the main meal light like the salad. I don't know the recipes for either, but hey you asked opinion. John D. Barbato, OD From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 23 11:44:55 2004 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:44:55 -0700 Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations References: <20.3ada8b5c.2efc7582@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:24 PM Subject: Re: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations > In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:41:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: > With the sheer volume of good taste > on this list, I thought I'd ask for > some opinions. > > I am planning on making a dinner for > some friends next week, and have a dish > in mind, but I feel it's not quite enough. > > The dish is a chicken, apple, and walnut salad > with a sweet curry dressing (made with honey). > (And yes, anyone who would like the recipe, I'm > willing to share.:) > > Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? > It goes really well with scones, but that's more of > a luncheon meal. I'm thinking my Sherry Cake for > dessert as well (and an Over-21 Sherry Cake, > to boot!). > > Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. > > Merry Holidays to everyone! > ChrisO > Walnut crusted Salmon or Lemon chicken. I'd keep the main meal light like the > salad. I don't know the recipes for either, but hey you asked opinion. > > John D. Barbato, OD > Yeah, salmon is a good choice, especially since there are so many ways to cook it. I would suggest grilling it, go with an anti winter theme, and some cus cus as a side dish to pair with the curry in the salad. And share the recipe! Always need something new. Jeff G. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 23 12:06:31 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations Message-ID: <200412232006.iBNK6VtN001239@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Jeff G. wrote: > John Barbato wrote: > > Walnut crusted Salmon or Lemon chicken. I'd keep the main meal light like > the > > salad. I don't know the recipes for either, but hey you asked opinion. > > > > John D. Barbato, OD > > > Yeah, salmon is a good choice, especially since there are so many ways to > cook it. I would suggest grilling it, go with an anti winter theme, and some > cus cus as a side dish to pair with the curry in the salad. Hmm... Salmon. Well, I'm always up for learning a new cooking skill! I was thinking of making something akin to the rice balls with a touch of honey (as read about in one of the Brust books--anyone recall which one?), as that always sounded pretty cool and would likely go well with the dressing, too. Thanks for the ideas, everyone! Much appreciated. > And share the recipe! Always need something new. The dressing is the real recipe; the rest is pretty basic. Salad Dressing - 1/4 Cup Honey 1 TBS Curry Powder 1/4 Cup Rice Wine Vinegar 3/4 Cup Salad Oil (Canola, Vegetable, Corn, etc. NOT Olive oil!) The dressing makes quite a bit, and can be halved for ease. Other ingredients are lettuce, chicken and chopped walnuts. Thanks again! ChrisO From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 23 12:33:36 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:33:36 EST Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations Message-ID: <15d.46c6d496.2efc85a0@aol.com> In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 writes: Mmmm, that sounds sooo good. Do you cook? -C ^..^ In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:24:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:41:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: >With the sheer volume of good taste >on this list, I thought I'd ask for >some opinions. > >I am planning on making a dinner for >some friends next week, and have a dish >in mind, but I feel it's not quite enough. > >The dish is a chicken, apple, and walnut salad >with a sweet curry dressing (made with honey). >(And yes, anyone who would like the recipe, I'm >willing to share.:) > >Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? >It goes really well with scones, but that's more of >a luncheon meal. I'm thinking my Sherry Cake for >dessert as well (and an Over-21 Sherry Cake, >to boot!). > >Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. > >Merry Holidays to everyone! >ChrisO >Walnut crusted Salmon or Lemon chicken. I'd keep the main meal light like the >salad. I don't know the recipes for either, but hey you asked opinion. > >John D. Barbato, OD > a little, mostly i eat. my wife's hobby is cooking, and she is *really* good at it. remember, sex gets old, but you always got to eat!!!!! John D. Barbato, OD From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 23 12:52:11 2004 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations Message-ID: <200412232052.iBNKqBtN005222@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> > In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 > writes: > Mmmm, that sounds sooo good. Do you cook? > -C ^..^ Not sure if this was directed to me or John, but... Yes, I do. I tend to cook more for other people than by myself, but I have a few recipes I've picked up (from salads and breakfasts to New Orleans-style fried chicken) and have been told I'm good. At least, I haven't killed anyone yet, so I guess that says something. Still want to make some of the Dragaeran recipes, but it's hard to find Kethna in the Bay Area. :) ChrisO From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Dec 23 22:44:51 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:44:51 EST Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations Message-ID: <1e3.317b12f4.2efd14e3@aol.com> Hi, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote on Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:06:31 -0800 (PST) >I was thinking of making something akin to the rice >balls with a touch of honey (as read about in one >of the Brust books--anyone recall which one?), as >that always sounded pretty cool and would likely go >well with the dressing, too. "He gave us each what I thought was just a ball of rice, only the rice had been prepared with ginger, and saffron, and I swear a tiny bit of honey; it was quite remarkable." Found using dragaera Search. Issola, Chapter 13, paperback page 196. From: Chris Olson - SunPS wrote on Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) >Still want to make some of the Dragaeran recipes, but >it's hard to find Kethna in the Bay Area. As has been mentioned before, pork may be substituted for kethna. If you make any Dragaeran recipes, below is a description of the type of cooking article that David would like to post on dragaera.info . David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:17:34 -0600 >The other kind of cooking article I hope to have some of some day is a >specific recipe, worked out in detail, with explanations of what >decisions they had to make along the way, why they made them, and how >their friends liked the result :-). Or perhaps several recipes >combined, as a report on a "Dragaeran dinner" (yes, it's been done >before). >And kinds of cooking articles I haven't thought of will be looked at >with a moderately open mind. Chris Olson - SunPS wrote on Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:40:50 -0800 (PST) >Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? See Issola, Chapter 13, paperback page 195-196. or how about recipe is from an inn The Campaigner that was located (need I mention before said city was destroyed) in Dragaera City: "a dish involving darr meat rolled around chunks of delicately seasoned beef and covered with a sauce in which butter, cream, and tarragon figured prominently." No idea what a darr is except darr have two legs. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Dec 24 00:13:18 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:13:18 EST Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust Message-ID: <1f9.39368ad.2efd299e@aol.com> Steve Hubbell wrote on Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:49:53 +0000 >http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html In response, Scott Schultz wrote Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:59:39 -0800 >Well, now we know how to serve him up when he discorporates. Interesting to >see an author define himself in terms of food. Hi, http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004.html This page explains that http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html is supposed to be a grocery list. There are several other "grocery lists" of several other authors listed on that page. Which does not mean what Scott said is not true. Is it a grocery list or not? To: Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel Mark, I started counting again. http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html is 17 lines long, if you count the line "The End" . Mark, does http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html match any specific poetry criteria that you know of? It has too many lines to be a tanka or haiku. The Aol dictionary says there is "concrete poetry". Definition: "poetry in which the poet's intent is conveyed by the graphic patterns of letters, words, or symbols rather than by the conventional arrangement of words" If you trace on the outside of each line of text in the "grocery list", you could have a drawing of an onion with part of the stalk still attached. Garlic would also have a stalk, but I would think the lines would have to be longer at the bottom. What do you think, Mark? Bye. Linda G. From abcmm at att.net Fri Dec 24 09:02:15 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:02:15 +0000 Subject: FW: Re: sorry Message-ID: <122420041702.14300.41CC4B9600052B69000037DC216046664803030C0D0E@att.net> I have been away on vacation but I return just in time to second this notion! here, here!! B -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Jeff G" To: Subject: Re: sorry Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:08:32 +0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: sorry > I am sorry if that sounded mean. > -Crystal ^..^ > Be careful, showing weakness here is almost as dangerous as it would be in Dragaera. . . . . anyone gets mouthy, channel your inner Jhereg, sneer and tell 'em there is a neat inscription on your dagger you want them to read, and you would be happy to show it to them. BTW, Your doing a great job, thanks for all your hard work! Jeff G. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Dec 24 09:53:26 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:53:26 -0600 Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust In-Reply-To: <200412231715.iBNHFutN024461@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> (Chris Olson's message of "Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:15:56 -0800 (PST)") References: <200412231715.iBNHFutN024461@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: >> http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html > > Hmmm... Anyone else get the impression Steve > likes onions? Maybe it's just me. I've certainly had that impression, yes. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Dec 24 09:57:29 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:57:29 -0600 Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations In-Reply-To: <200412231840.iBNIeotN022854@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> (Chris Olson's message of "Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:40:50 -0800 (PST)") References: <200412231840.iBNIeotN022854@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > With the sheer volume of good taste > on this list, I thought I'd ask for > some opinions. > > I am planning on making a dinner for > some friends next week, and have a dish > in mind, but I feel it's not quite enough. > > The dish is a chicken, apple, and walnut salad > with a sweet curry dressing (made with honey). > (And yes, anyone who would like the recipe, I'm > willing to share.:) > > Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? > It goes really well with scones, but that's more of > a luncheon meal. I'm thinking my Sherry Cake for > dessert as well (and an Over-21 Sherry Cake, > to boot!). > > Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. Sounds like you're into wasabi-crusted skate territory, to me (the fish, not the sports thingy). Or, does that salad *really* want to be a side dish? Maybe you should serve several hearty appetizers with it (ever made negmaki? or kimbop?). And then maybe a cheese course before dessert. The sherry cake sounds like a great idea. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Dec 24 10:11:57 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:11:57 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1e5.31f40904.2efdb5ed@aol.com> Today's cooking extract is from Lord Adron's army kitchen outside Dragaera City. "The two gentlemen set to work on the comestibles in their particular fashions: Adron attacked his food as if it were the enemy, and disposed his knife and his teeth as if they were the forces with which he intended to rout the roasted duck, drive back the hard-crusted bread, scatter the long-bean and rice, and force the confection of apple, cream, and plum wine to surrender unconditionally. Aerich, meanwhile, treated these same dishes as if each were an honored guest, and he did not so much devour them as hold conversation with them, treating each with the courtesy and respect he thought it deserved. It is difficult to say which of them enjoyed his meal the more, yet certainly Adron enjoyed his more quickly--he was sipping strong wine and wandering contentedly about the tent (if we may be permitted such unfortunate euphony) while the Lyorn was contemplating the whipped, frothy confection we have already mentioned, and wondering at the best way to address it with the sweet biscuits at hand. 'A most laudable repast,' he remarked and looked upon the dishes, full and empty, and recalled their contents. Adron bowed, and gave the subaltern an approving look that she would in due course take back to the chief of Adron's kitchen. When she had a last gathered up the dishes, napkins, and wine bottles, Aerich sat back contentedly, signed, and said, 'Will You Highness entertain a question?' 'Gladly, my dear Lyorn,' said Adron, looking up from the patterns of purple stones upon which he had, perhaps as an aid to digestion, begun working once more. 'I must apologize that this question is not related to the duck who has given his life for our palates, nor, indeed, to the elegant and thoroughly mysterious manner in which Your Highness's chef has managed to season and prepare it over the spit with only the tools of a traveling army at his disposal.' Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Nineteenth, page 282 Merry Christmas! Bye. Linda G. From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Dec 24 15:36:20 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:36:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Elvtarsok In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041224233620.64160.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> oh nuts. i meant to send my answer to the list. martin, would you please do me the kindness of posting it here? thanks. mark by hand --- Martin Wohlert wrote: > To steal the context from Cracks and Shards: > > > "elvtarsok": Noish-pa cannot think of the Dragaeran word he wants to > describe Kelly's people, in relation to the murdered Franz [Tek52]: > [Noish-pa:] "Well, his people, his -- what is the word? Elvtarsok?" > [Vlad:] "Friends? Associates?" > Noish-pa is never at a loss for words, in any sense. Is Brust doing > something with the first syllable's resemblance to "elves"? > > > I checked an online Hungarian-English dictionary, and found these two > suspects: > elvt?rs comrade > and > t?rsak companions > > Regards > /mrtn > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.com/ > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Dec 24 15:37:33 2004 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:37:33 +0100 Subject: FW: Re: Elvtarsok Message-ID: >From: "Mark A. Mandel" >To: Martin Wohlert >Subject: Re: Elvtarsok >Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:34:31 -0800 (PST) > >--- Martin Wohlert wrote: > > > To steal the context from Cracks and Shards: > > > "elvtarsok": Noish-pa cannot think of the Dragaeran word he wants to > > describe Kelly's people, in relation to the murdered Franz [Tek52]: > > [Noish-pa:] "Well, his people, his -- what is the word? Elvtarsok?" > > [Vlad:] "Friends? Associates?" > > Noish-pa is never at a loss for words, in any sense. Is Brust doing > > something with the first syllable's resemblance to "elves"? > > > > > > I checked an online Hungarian-English dictionary, and found these two > > suspects: > > elvt?rs comrade > > and > > t?rsak companions > >Thanks. I'm sure "elvt?rsok" (+/- the accent mark) means 'comrades'. But I >was >wondering there why Brust had Noish-pa bring in this particular word, since >he >refers to Dragaerans as elfs. It seemed like a joke by Brust, whether or >not we >are to suppose that the Fenarian word (represented by?) "elvt?rs" and the >Dragaeran word translated as "elf" resemble each other at all. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Dec 24 15:45:04 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:45:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fortean Bureau-- Steven Brust In-Reply-To: <1f9.39368ad.2efd299e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041224234504.63489.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004.html > > This page explains that > http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html > is supposed to be a grocery list. There are several other > "grocery lists" of several other authors listed on that page. > > Which does not mean what Scott said is not true. Is it a grocery list or > not? > > To: Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > > Mark, I started counting again. > > http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html is 17 lines > long, if you count the line "The End" . > > Mark, does http://www.forteanbureau.com/april2004/brust.html > match any specific poetry criteria that you know of? > > It has too many lines to be a tanka or haiku. > > The Aol dictionary says there is "concrete poetry". > Definition: "poetry in which the poet's intent is conveyed by the graphic > patterns of letters, words, or symbols rather than by the conventional > arrangement of words" > > If you trace on the outside of each line of text in the "grocery > list", you could have a drawing of an onion with part of the stalk > still attached. Garlic would also have a stalk, but I would think > the lines would have to be longer at the bottom. > > What do you think, Mark? > > Bye. > > Linda G. Ow. My head hurts. "Po?sie concr?te" was big in (the thirties??). This could be an example. Seventeen. Steve, whether you meant this one or not, you're stuck with it. Seventeen. Seve t + n een Neen steve? Nene, Steve? A nene is a species of Hawaiian goose, beloved of crossword puzzle writers. Neener-neener-neener! -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Dec 25 20:19:24 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 20:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: FW: Re: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041226041924.75175.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > except the yendi. they wear other houses' shirts, or no house shirt at all. > > Or perhaps they use some Daliesque negative image trick... > No, really. The Yendi don't have House colors. "... he wasn't a Teckla .... And he was not a Jhereg .... Every other House may be identified by face and clothing, save the Yendi." -- Aerich speaking, The Phoenix Guards, ch. 1 (p. 15, Tor pb, 1st mass market printing) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website (by hand) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From carpovita at earthlink.net Mon Dec 27 21:43:45 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (carpovita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:43:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas & Site update Message-ID: <22793326.1104212625625.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Sorry for the mass post all, I am at a foreign terminal so I don't have acces to everyone's email. DDB, MadCat and Corwin, I need to talk to each of you off list about some Merch ideas that Steve and I worked on Christmas Eve. We need to get your help and or approval before proceeding. Thanks, Rion ~ www.opufest.com From carpovita at earthlink.net Mon Dec 27 21:56:57 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (carpovita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:56:57 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! Message-ID: <11023296.1104213417430.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Well folks it's official... Opus 2006 will be hosting a weekend full of Dragaera-centric events. Opus is helf every May in Denver Colorado. Thus far the planned events include: - A dragaeran feast - Panels on Dragaera hosted by SKZB himself - A Weekend long full immersion LARP set in Dragaera in which all players will get to be cast as and compete against various Dragaerans (and easterners) from the novels... And YES our beloved Steve will be PLAYING... - The Premiere of several games that were first introduced in the books, many of which will be played in Vlad's on site pub and gambling establishment, the Dicing Dragon. - A Dragaera based costume contest - A Dzur dueling pit and dueling competion for a cash purse (Open to non Dzur as well, swords only no magic) - Additional panels on art and writing... - And anything else that I and you fine folks on the list can come up with between now and then. Respond to my email here if you have ideas, quetions or comments about this event. Thanks in advance for your interest and help. Rion ~ www.opusfest.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 28 06:04:31 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:04:31 -0500 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! Message-ID: <33CCAECF.79464544.00184D6D@aol.com> If I can think of any ideas, I will certainly let you know! As for the fighting; are there going to be real swords, imatations or foam padded? In a message dated 12/28/2004 12:56:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: >Well folks it's official... > >Opus 2006 will be hosting a weekend full of Dragaera-centric events. >Opus is helf every May in Denver Colorado. > >Thus far the planned events include: > >- A dragaeran feast > >- Panels on Dragaera hosted by SKZB himself > >- A Weekend long full immersion LARP set in Dragaera in which all players will get to be cast as and compete against various Dragaerans (and easterners) from the novels... ?And YES our beloved Steve will be PLAYING... > >- The Premiere of several games that were first introduced in the books, many of which will be played in Vlad's on site pub and gambling establishment, the Dicing Dragon. > >- A Dragaera based costume contest > >- A Dzur dueling pit and dueling competion for a cash purse (Open to non Dzur as well, swords only no magic) > >- Additional panels on art and writing... > >- And anything else that I and you fine folks on the list can come up with between now and then. > >Respond to my email here if you have ideas, quetions or comments about this event. ? >Thanks in advance for your interest and help. ? > >Rion ~ www.opusfest.com > From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 09:43:19 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:43:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <41C1A2E3.6020609@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20041228174320.47646.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > > They did the same thing for year-old children and the Japanese babies > > did not look up when the word changed to "la". They had already > > learned that "ra" and "la" were the same and couldn't hear the > > difference between them. > > > > This study fascinates me. How much of the world have I learned to > > ignore? Ken Koester replied: > Scary, isn't it? Actually, I was being conservative. The study I read > indicated that much of the loss occurs earlier & by age 12, is almost > concluded. If you wanna really become bilingual & sound like a native, > better do it before you are 6 or better pick better genes (-; No, a better place to grow up. This one's definitely nurture, not nature. But I'm sure you knew that. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 09:45:37 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041228174537.60944.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Philip Hart asked: > > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use > > a comma correctly in German? David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Well, that's an interesting question. I lived in Zurich in 1966-67, > and then took 4 years of German in highschool (straight As), and then > scored a perfect 800 on the SAT German Achievement test. I don't > recall that commas were particularly an issue in German, though. > (I've hardly touched it since, so I'm sure I don't have it all > straight *now*.) It's not particularly complicated, but it's different than in English, and it requires some understanding of grammar. If you don't grok clauses, you can't do it right. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 09:51:26 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041228175126.96250.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > The fact that I dealt with German as a language learned as an > adolescent, not as a child, may be warping my view here. But it seems > to me that everything about grammar they taught us in English there > was some German equivalent, and then there was about three times that > much *additional* stuff that applied only to German, not to English. But that doesn't count the sh*tloads that you never had to learn as a native speaker of English because native speakers don't get it wrong, but that L2 learners have to learn by study. For example: Give the big blue book to Jane. -- fine Give it to Jane. -- fine Give Jane the big blue book. -- fine Give Jane it. -- WRONG!!! -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From carpovita at earthlink.net Tue Dec 28 10:22:13 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (carpovita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:22:13 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! Message-ID: <33300797.1104258133655.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> The most the insurance company will let me get away with for an open competition is split bamboo shanai's. These will be dipped in blue powder to ensure folks know when they have been hit. There will however be several different historical recreationst and martial art groups on site who will be doing live steel demos and workshoppes. -----Original Message----- From: MedCat7 at aol.com Sent: Dec 28, 2004 7:04 AM To: carpovita at earthlink.net, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! If I can think of any ideas, I will certainly let you know! As for the fighting; are there going to be real swords, imatations or foam padded? In a message dated 12/28/2004 12:56:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: >Well folks it's official... > >Opus 2006 will be hosting a weekend full of Dragaera-centric events. >Opus is helf every May in Denver Colorado. > >Thus far the planned events include: > >- A dragaeran feast > >- Panels on Dragaera hosted by SKZB himself > >- A Weekend long full immersion LARP set in Dragaera in which all players will get to be cast as and compete against various Dragaerans (and easterners) from the novels... ?And YES our beloved Steve will be PLAYING... > >- The Premiere of several games that were first introduced in the books, many of which will be played in Vlad's on site pub and gambling establishment, the Dicing Dragon. > >- A Dragaera based costume contest > >- A Dzur dueling pit and dueling competion for a cash purse (Open to non Dzur as well, swords only no magic) > >- Additional panels on art and writing... > >- And anything else that I and you fine folks on the list can come up with between now and then. > >Respond to my email here if you have ideas, quetions or comments about this event. ? >Thanks in advance for your interest and help. ? > >Rion ~ www.opusfest.com > From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 28 10:45:52 2004 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:45:52 -0600 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041228174537.60944.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> (Mark A. Mandel's message of "Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:45:37 -0800 (PST)") References: <20041228174537.60944.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" writes: > Philip Hart asked: >> > Spelling is certainly painful in English - but have you ever tried to use >> > a comma correctly in German? > > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> Well, that's an interesting question. I lived in Zurich in 1966-67, >> and then took 4 years of German in highschool (straight As), and then >> scored a perfect 800 on the SAT German Achievement test. I don't >> recall that commas were particularly an issue in German, though. >> (I've hardly touched it since, so I'm sure I don't have it all >> straight *now*.) > > It's not particularly complicated, but it's different than in > English, and it requires some understanding of grammar. If you don't > grok clauses, you can't do it right. And I grok clauses pretty well even in English (parallel structure being one of my hotspots). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From casey at the-bat.net Tue Dec 28 11:41:15 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:41:15 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20041228175126.96250.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > The fact that I dealt with German as a language learned as an > > adolescent, not as a child, may be warping my view here. But > > it seems to me that everything about grammar they taught us > > in English there was some German equivalent, and then there > > was about three times that much *additional* stuff that > > applied only to German, not to English. > > But that doesn't count the sh*tloads that you never had to > learn as a native speaker of English because native speakers > don't get it wrong, but that L2 learners have to learn by > study. For example: > > Give the big blue book to Jane. -- fine > Give it to Jane. -- fine > Give Jane the big blue book. -- fine > Give Jane it. -- WRONG!!! Hmm. Does it boil down to comparing whether it is harder to learn the case endings that make word order less important in a language like German than it is to learn the rules of word order in a language like English? Casey From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 11:58:54 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:58:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <20041228195854.83998.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- Casey Rousseau wrote: > Hmm. Does it boil down to comparing whether it is harder to learn the case > endings that make word order less important in a language like German than > it is to learn the rules of word order in a language like English? Nope. It's always going to be more complicated than that. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 12:00:53 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:00:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: quotes In-Reply-To: <20041215184031.74261.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041228200054.36261.qmail@web13125.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Michele Riccio wrote: > > thanks for helping me waste time in work! > > Now if we want T shirts just for the list, that would be a good slogan. for 'most any of the lists i'm on! -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 28 12:05:48 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:05:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: SKJB / Dream Cafe' swag ideas In-Reply-To: <20041213225344.1923.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041228200548.20267.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- Shannon Wimberly wrote: > See, now I just feel like getting all stubborn and onery about it. If I were > to actually be that way, I'd say something like, "Who cares and the OE > defined origins, I'm sticking with my definition because I think it's > funnier. Besides who decided the OE was 'the expert.'" [insert silly hand > gesture here] "Pshaw!" > > But then, maybe stubborn and onery isn't the way to go in this case. > > Cheers, > Shannon Indeed. "Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and annoys the pedant." -- Lois McMaster Bujold, _Memory_ -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Dec 28 13:19:34 2004 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:19:34 -0600 Subject: S-OT: Culinary Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <200412231840.iBNIeotN022854@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20041228211934.GC3641@Durandal> On Fri, Dec 24, 2004 at 11:57:29AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > > The dish is a chicken, apple, and walnut salad > > with a sweet curry dressing (made with honey). > > (And yes, anyone who would like the recipe, I'm > > willing to share.:) > > > > Any suggestions on a "main dish" to serve with this? > > It goes really well with scones, but that's more of > > a luncheon meal. I'm thinking my Sherry Cake for > > dessert as well (and an Over-21 Sherry Cake, > > to boot!). > > > > Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. > > Sounds like you're into wasabi-crusted skate territory, to me (the > fish, not the sports thingy). Or, does that salad *really* want to be > a side dish? Maybe you should serve several hearty appetizers with it > (ever made negmaki? or kimbop?). And then maybe a cheese course > before dessert. The sherry cake sounds like a great idea. If it's not too late, I'd like to second the fish recommendations, and also suggest iterations on David's idea. If the salad has a decent amount of chicken in it, make it the main course: if starch is not an issue, I suggest lentil curry served over aromatic rice, or perhaps a potato or pasta dish, as sides. Let us know what you end up doing, and thanks for the dressing recipe. Kat From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Dec 28 14:43:10 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:43:10 -0500 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> I have a new provider at work so I get board a lot in between patients. I get to thinking and thought it would be fun if we got to know eachother a little better. When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what got you all in to it? As for me, it was about two year ago. My fiance bought _Dragon_ not knowing what it was really about. He's not much of a reader (until now), so I borrowed _Dragon_. At first, I couldn't get into, but then i read it all the way through a few months later. I really liked it and wanted more, so i searched for more. I read them all in somewhat order of pub. and reread them in chronological order then again in order pub (when I stumbled across the mailing list) (currently at _Pheonix_). That's my story. Nothing fancy. -Crystal ^..^ From casey at the-bat.net Tue Dec 28 15:05:23 2004 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:05:23 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com asked > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. > Brust and what got you all in to it? I picked up Jhereg from my local bookstore sometime after it first came out (4/83), but I think before _TRiH_ or _Yendi_ had hit the shelves (7/84). From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 28 15:47:40 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:47:40 +0000 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! In-Reply-To: <33300797.1104258133655.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: carpovita at earthlink.net Reply-To: carpovita at earthlink.net To: MedCat7 at aol.com, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:22:13 -0700 (GMT-07:00) The most the insurance company will let me get away with for an open competition is split bamboo shanai's. These will be dipped in blue powder to ensure folks know when they have been hit. There will however be several different historical recreationst and martial art groups on site who will be doing live steel demos and workshoppes. >>>>>>>> What are the rules for those in costume who prefer to be armed? limits on sword lenth? Or will there be a sword check at the door? Jeff G. From abcmm at att.net Tue Dec 28 16:51:52 2004 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:51:52 +0000 Subject: FW: RE: just for fun Message-ID: <122920040051.24877.41D1FFA700037FEF0000612D216037602103030C0D0E@att.net> I also picked up Jhereg in the early 80s. I was tired of rereading LOTR and having problems finding other fantasy authors I enjoyed. Stumbled accross Jhereg totally by accident. I read the first couple of pages in the store and was hooked. Sales clerk actually had to come up to me and ask me if I planned on buying the book (this was before book stores actually wanted you to sit down and read in them.) That is when I realized I had been reading almost an hour. Bought the book and then purchased all the rest most as soon as they hit the shelves. Must say my favorites are Jhereg, To Reign In Hell, and 500 Years After. In that order. But picking a favorite Brust book is like choosing a piece chocolate from a tray of all your favorite chocolates... No matter what you pick your going to enjoy it. -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Casey Rousseau" To: "Dragaera" Subject: RE: just for fun Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:05:58 +0000 MedCat7 at aol.com asked > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. > Brust and what got you all in to it? I picked up Jhereg from my local bookstore sometime after it first came out (4/83), but I think before _TRiH_ or _Yendi_ had hit the shelves (7/84). From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Dec 28 17:00:59 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:00:59 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <122920040051.24877.41D1FFA700037FEF0000612D216037602103030C0D0E@att.net> References: <122920040051.24877.41D1FFA700037FEF0000612D216037602103030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: <1A22FF82-5935-11D9-983D-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Dec 28, 2004, at 7:51 PM, abcmm at att.net wrote: > > Must say my favorites are Jhereg, To Reign In Hell, and 500 Years > After. In that order. But picking a favorite Brust book is like > choosing a piece chocolate from a tray of all your favorite > chocolates... No matter what you pick your going to enjoy it. I was working in a hobby (D&D) shop when I stumbled across them. We had a used book section and there was a copy of Taltos. I started reading it and was engrossed. The tone of the book suggested that the reader knew what he (Steve) was talking about and lo behold in the front of the book where the previous ones. I went out and bought them immediately. Since Phoenix, I have bought all of the Vlad books in the first week they came out. The exception was Issola, which I got as an ARC off ebay. Then I purchased the hardcover a couple of months later when I could afford it and to support Steve. My top three favorite Brust books: Jhereg, Yendi (Ya, his least favorite, go figure) and Phoenix. Phoenix might be tied with Dragon. They are all good. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Dec 28 17:20:59 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:20:59 -0500 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <43AF539D.6EBF84FA.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 12/28/2004 5:43:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. > Brust and what got you all in to it? I have to give credit to Robert Jordan. I discovered the Wheel of Time in college (back when it was still good), and from there re-discovered Usenet, specifically rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan. And then, around the time _Dragon_ came out, I decided to try this Brust fellow people kept mentioning. And then I moved to rec.arts.sf.written proper, where I discovered lots of other great authors, like Kirstein, Pratchett, Hobb, Hodgell, Moran, Wells, Erikson, Hughart, and Butcher. --KG From vaklam at comcast.net Tue Dec 28 18:10:32 2004 From: vaklam at comcast.net (Melissa Gay) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:10:32 -0600 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:43 PM -0500 12/28/04, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and >what got you all in to it? Embarassingly enough, I bought _Jhereg_ while in high school in hopes of impressing a boy I had a crush on (he had effervesced over the volume). I also bought _Yendi_, the only other Dragaera book out at the time, because I figured I'd want it after I had gotten around to reading the first one. Then I bought _Teckla_ when it came out, because I *still* hadn't gotten around to it. In fact, I didn't get around to it until I was in college, so I never got to discuss it with my crush. But on a family vacation right before my sophomore year, I brought the series along to serve as hotel reading material, and once I had cracked them open, my family very nearly had to prise them from my hands with a crowbar to get me to do anything else all weekend! Thank goodness we were home by the time I got to _Teckla_, however, as I cried for something like 2 days after reading it (going through a rough patch with the ol' boyfriend, wouldn't you know it!). I very geekily wrote down all the lines I thought particularly funny, along with the Cycle poem itself, in poster form to hang in my dorm room. Then I rendered the Cycle poem in illuminated calligraphy. =) You can bet _Taltos_ did *not* sit around on my bookshelf before I devoured it. My favorites thus far are _Issola_, _Dragon_, and _To Reign In Hell_. --Melissa -- http://www.melissagay.com From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 28 18:17:29 2004 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:17:29 -0700 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <000101c4ed4c$8c6b34b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and > what got you all in to it? It was when Steve was the GOH at MileHiCon. I decided to read his books. From kate at mail.browser.net Tue Dec 28 18:54:54 2004 From: kate at mail.browser.net (Kate Jones) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:54:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! In-Reply-To: <11023296.1104213417430.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> from "carpovita@earthlink.net" at Dec 27, 2004 10:56:57 PM Message-ID: <200412290254.iBT2stB30276@mail.browser.net> carpovita at earthlink.net sez: > > Well folks it's official... > - A dragaeran feast And will there be a cookbook released afterwards? Kate -- Kate Jones | The sweetest part is acting kate at tulgey.browser.net | after making a decision. From kate at mail.browser.net Tue Dec 28 18:55:35 2004 From: kate at mail.browser.net (Kate Jones) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:55:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! In-Reply-To: <11023296.1104213417430.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> from "carpovita@earthlink.net" at Dec 27, 2004 10:56:57 PM Message-ID: <200412290255.iBT2tZu30309@mail.browser.net> carpovita at earthlink.net sez: > > Well folks it's official... > - A dragaeran feast And will there be a cookbook released afterwards...? Kate -- Kate Jones | The sweetest part is acting kate at tulgey.browser.net | after making a decision. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Dec 28 20:31:28 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:31:28 EST Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <194.350e08c2.2f038d20@aol.com> MedCat7.aol.com wrote Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:43:10 -0500 >When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what got >you all in to it? Hi, The cover art on Jhereg, Ace Edition, April 1983. Found Dragaera.info this year through Mark A. Mandel's website which was mentioned in the Acknowledgments in The Paths of the Dead. The "alias page to redirect browsers" to cracksandshards.com was still working at that time July 2004. Bye. Linda G. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 28 20:53:36 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 04:53:36 +0000 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" Subject: RE: just for fun Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:17:29 -0700 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and > what got you all in to it? I was on a dragon kick at the time, having devoured the early Pern novels and noticed a book with a small dragon on it. Opps. Learned the error of my ways, left Anne ( the later books got repetitive, although I still enjoy her early stuff,.) Read all the books as they came out, as for my favorites, ugh, I dunno. I like the chocolate analogy, as my favorite book depends on my mood. Jeff G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Dec 29 06:04:43 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:04:43 -0500 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <163E6F1D.02633A7A.00184D6D@aol.com> <> My brother bought me _The Chronicles of Amber_...all 10 books in one! -Zelazny (?sp) The book is huge! I am reaaly quite enjoying it. _Nine Princes in Amber_ starts off very confusing and you wonder how NYC is fantasy, but by the 4th or 5th chapter... -C ^..^ From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 07:53:07 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:53:07 -0600 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <163E6F1D.02633A7A.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <163E6F1D.02633A7A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: > My brother bought me _The Chronicles of Amber_...all 10 books in one! -Zelazny (?sp) The book is huge! I am reaaly quite enjoying it. _Nine Princes in Amber_ starts off very confusing and you wonder how NYC is fantasy, but by the 4th or 5th chapter... > -C ^..^ I have that book - it's a monster, and yet it moves very fast. I wouldn't call it my favorite Zelazny, but it's a fun read and played like the sort of good, episodic fiction that we don't see as much anymore. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 08:01:30 2004 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:01:30 -0600 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <194.350e08c2.2f038d20@aol.com> References: <194.350e08c2.2f038d20@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:31:28 EST, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > MedCat7.aol.com wrote Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:43:10 -0500 > > >When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what got > >you all in to it? > > Hi, > > The cover art on Jhereg, Ace Edition, April 1983. This is my experience as well. I found the paperback in my local grocery store. I put it in my coat pocket and did some shopping. I put my hand in my pocket for my car keys when I got to my car and discovered the book still in my pocket and realized that I hadn't paid for it. In short, I technically shoplifted my first Brust novel. Realizing that I had walked out with the book in my coat, I put it /back/ in my coat pocket, turned on my heel, and walked back in to the book section. I took the book out of my pocket, turned, and paid for it in the Express line. It wasn't long after that that I found Yendi in the same store and figured that was God's way of rewarding me for going back and paying for the first one. I've privately believed that God is a fan of the Vladiad ever since. ; ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Dec 29 14:06:10 2004 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:06:10 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41D2E402.5476.12E5674@localhost> On 28 Dec 2004 at 17:43, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and > what got you all in to it? > I was in college, in Bar Harbor, ME and we took a trip to the big city of Bangor, where there was a brand new bookstore. It smelled like new carpets. I remember reading that first sentence of Jhereg "There is a similarity..." and grinning like the Grinch. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From ike at manor.org Wed Dec 29 15:04:35 2004 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:04:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what > got you all in to it? My first was in 1993, I was in the Air Force stationed in California. I was in the local waldenbooks and saw the cover for Cowboy Feng's. I admit I picked it up because the book's cover reminded me of an Iron Maiden album cover. When I went to the counter to check out, the clerk told me that I should check out Jhereg, and the rest is history (although I still haven't tried reading the Vladiad chronologically...). I truly hope that clerk's life has been happy...he did me a solid. -+- Brother Ike | Passion should be nurtured, even if it's Unix SysAdmin | only indulged in on weekends and evenings -- S. Brust -+- From ike at manor.org Wed Dec 29 15:08:38 2004 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:08:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: References: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Ike Porter wrote: > My first was in 1993 Sorry, make that 1989. From ike at manor.org Wed Dec 29 15:13:29 2004 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:13:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Da Big Z In-Reply-To: References: <163E6F1D.02633A7A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Johne Cook wrote: > > My brother bought me _The Chronicles of Amber_...all 10 books in one! -Zelazny (?sp) The book is huge! I am reaaly quite enjoying it. _Nine Princes in Amber_ starts off very confusing and you wonder how NYC is fantasy, but by the 4th or 5th chapter... > > -C ^..^ > > I have that book - it's a monster, and yet it moves very fast. I > wouldn't call it my favorite Zelazny, but it's a fun read and played > like the sort of good, episodic fiction that we don't see as much > anymore. I can still only get part way though the second series before losing steam unfortunately...I'll make it someday. OTOH, I just read Roadmarks, and Wow. Nice. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Dec 29 19:04:04 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:04:04 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <128.531e3f49.2f04ca24@aol.com> Today's cooking extract comes from an "inn, called The Silver Shadow" in Dragaera City. This inn was "somewhat reminiscent of Valabar's Restaurant in distant Adrilankha. "They seated themselves, and asked the obsequious waiter to bring them a good red wine, a dish of kethna sauteed with green onions, mushrooms, and sage, and a bowl of fruit. Then they sat quietly, speaking only of such innocuous subjects as fashion and the weather, until the plates of food arrived, and the waiter departed. As they began eating, Dunaan said, 'You have, Mario, acquired a certain reputation.' 'Have I?' the one addressed replied mildly. 'I had not been aware of it.' 'It is, nevertheless, true.' 'Well I hope, then, that it is a good one.' 'I think so. It is, in all events, the reason I wish to speak to you.' Mario stabbed a piece of kethna with his skewer in a motion precise and graceful, acquiring both an onion and a mushroom at the same time. He lifted these to his mouth and nodded for Dunaan to continue. 'We have a task for which we believe you are qualified. I should warn you at once that it will not be easy.' Mario, having finished the piece of kethna, bit into a whitefruit, somehow contriving to eat it without, as usually happens to victims of this fruit, finding that it has exploded into his face or down his chin. He chewed thoughtfully, brought his napkin up to his lips and expelled a few seeds, then swallowed. 'Very well,' he said. 'I understand. It will not be easy.' " Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Nineteenth, pages 289-290. "'A few moments only,' said Mario. 'A few moments that I will spend boiling these rednuts in this liqueur before spooning them onto the cold fruit, and eating them before the temperatures have evened out. I suggest, My Lord, you busy yourself in the same way, and, before the bowl of nuts has exhausted itself, well, I believe I will have an answer for you.' This plan was instantly adopted, and Dunaan applied his full attention to the rednuts, the liqueur, and the iced fruit, while Mario thought matters over." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Nineteenth, page 292. From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Dec 29 21:16:46 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:16:46 -0700 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! References: Message-ID: <008301c4ee2e$c301d500$0400a8c0@attbi.com> those who wish to have live steel at my shows as part of their costumes must have said weaponry peace tied, my ops/security people have cable ties for those who don't tie their own "toys" ----- Original Message ----- From: "jeff G." To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: carpovita at earthlink.net > Reply-To: carpovita at earthlink.net > To: MedCat7 at aol.com, dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:22:13 -0700 (GMT-07:00) > > The most the insurance company will let me get away with for an open > competition is split bamboo shanai's. These will be dipped in blue powder > to ensure folks know when they have been hit. There will however be several > different historical recreationst and martial art groups on site who will be > doing live steel demos and workshoppes. > > >>>>>>>> > > What are the rules for those in costume who prefer to be armed? limits on > sword lenth? Or will there be a sword check at the door? > > Jeff G. > > From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Dec 29 21:19:58 2004 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:19:58 -0700 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book References: <200412290255.iBT2tZu30309@mail.browser.net> Message-ID: <008e01c4ee2f$355bd1a0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Steve and I discussed that... I know there are recipes floating about, and I know that I can get a book like that put together by one of the small press groups that work with my show... But I'd need someone to compile the recipes and then that same someone or someone else to put said recipes into a format that included art and anecdotes to make the whole thing more saleable. Rion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Jones" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 7:55 PM Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! > carpovita at earthlink.net sez: > > > > Well folks it's official... > > > - A dragaeran feast > > And will there be a cookbook released afterwards...? > > Kate > -- > Kate Jones | The sweetest part is acting > kate at tulgey.browser.net | after making a decision. From books at bofh.com Thu Dec 30 06:31:20 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:31:20 -0700 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book In-Reply-To: <008e01c4ee2f$355bd1a0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> References: <200412290255.iBT2tZu30309@mail.browser.net> <008e01c4ee2f$355bd1a0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20041230143120.GA25203@bofh.com> On Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 10:19:58PM -0700, Rion Bergquist wrote: > Steve and I discussed that... > I know there are recipes floating about, and I know that I can get a book > like that put together by one of the small press groups that work with my > show... > But I'd need someone to compile the recipes and then that same someone or > someone else to put said recipes into a format that included art and > anecdotes to make the whole thing more saleable. If someone collects the recipes I would be up for acting as assembler/consistency creator, etc. Art would be out of the question, unless Steven has an unnatural fondness for stick figures. Anecdotes would also require assistance. I have done this stuff on a amatuer scale a few times. One example can be found at: http://www.bofh.com/books/mine.html The file is pretty big, so be patient. I have another larger one that was done for a different group of people that I don't like as much...because I couldn't be as creative. :) This one has a few "easter eggs" hidden in it. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Dec 30 06:58:58 2004 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:58:58 EST Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <15a.4703ec20.2f0571b2@aol.com> In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, johne.cook at gmail.com writes: >> My brother bought me _The Chronicles of Amber_...all 10 books in one! -Zelazny (?sp) The book is huge! I am reaaly quite enjoying it. _Nine Princes in Amber_ starts off very confusing and you wonder how NYC is fantasy, but by the 4th or 5th chapter... > -C ^..^ >I have that book - it's a monster, and yet it moves very fast. I wouldn't call it my favorite Zelazny, but it's a fun read and played like the sort of good, episodic fiction that we don't see as much anymore. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa >johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com Absolutely some my favorite books. Regarding when I discovered Steve's books: I discovered Steve's books back in the late eighty's while in college. My favorite is the Phoenix Guards. I discovered the mailing list about the same time that it started, May or June a couple of years ago. I had e-mailed Steve with a question or something and he told me about the mailing list when he replied. John D. Barbato, OD From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 30 07:13:03 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:13:03 -0500 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book Message-ID: <642FFDB7.3A534E0C.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:12:21 -0500 Size: 2091 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20041230/120428c9/attachment.mht From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Dec 30 07:21:55 2004 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:21:55 -0500 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book In-Reply-To: <642FFDB7.3A534E0C.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <642FFDB7.3A534E0C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <8A460BEF-5A76-11D9-80FC-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Dec 30, 2004, at 10:13 AM, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > From: MedCat7 > Date: December 30, 2004 10:12:21 AM EST > To: books at bofh.com > Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book > > > > In a message dated 12/30/2004 9:31:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jot > Powers writes: > >> On Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 10:19:58PM -0700, Rion Bergquist wrote: >>> Steve and I discussed that... >>> I know there are recipes floating about, and I know that I can get a >>> book >>> like that put together by one of the small press groups that work >>> with my >>> show... >>> But I'd need someone to compile the recipes and then that same >>> someone or >>> someone else to put said recipes into a format that included art and >>> anecdotes to make the whole thing more saleable. >> >> If someone collects the recipes I would be up for acting as >> assembler/consistency creator, etc. >> >> Art would be out of the question, unless Steven has an unnatural >> fondness for stick figures. >> >> Anecdotes would also require assistance. >> >> I have done this stuff on a amatuer scale a few times. ?One >> example can be found at: >> >> http://www.bofh.com/books/mine.html >> >> The file is pretty big, so be patient. >> >> I have another larger one that was done for a different group >> of people that I don't like as much...because I couldn't be >> as creative. ?:) ?This one has a few "easter eggs" hidden in it. ?:) >> >> -Jot >> -- >> Jot Powers ? ? ? ? ?http://www.bofh.com/books/ >> "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" >> ? ?-Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Sloagan > > As long as we are splitting up work... I think I can do some art work. > I don't have a scanner, but if someone is willing to scan it, I can > snail mail it to them. Let me know when someone has a few recipies or > anecdotes... I can draw somethings pertaining to those. > I wish I could show some samples :o( > -Crystal ^..^ I have a scanner. I have no other talents but I am a computer geek ;) From books at bofh.com Thu Dec 30 07:53:16 2004 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:53:16 -0700 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book In-Reply-To: <8A460BEF-5A76-11D9-80FC-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> References: <642FFDB7.3A534E0C.00184D6D@aol.com> <8A460BEF-5A76-11D9-80FC-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20041230155316.GA25717@bofh.com> On Thu, Dec 30, 2004 at 10:21:55AM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > > >As long as we are splitting up work... I think I can do some art work. > >I don't have a scanner, but if someone is willing to scan it, I can > >snail mail it to them. Let me know when someone has a few recipies or > >anecdotes... I can draw somethings pertaining to those. > >I wish I could show some samples :o( > >-Crystal ^..^ > > I have a scanner. I have no other talents but I am a computer geek ;) Me too/two. (ie have scanner as well, am also geek....do have _some_ other talents though :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From ginni.berger at juno.com Thu Dec 30 09:16:52 2004 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:16:52 -0500 Subject: A Weekend In Dragaera-Recipe Book Message-ID: <20041230.121653.1348.6.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:19:58 -0700 "Rion Bergquist" writes: > Steve and I discussed that... > I know there are recipes floating about, and I know that I can get a > book > like that put together by one of the small press groups that work > with my > show... > But I'd need someone to compile the recipes and then that same > someone or > someone else to put said recipes into a format that included art > and > anecdotes to make the whole thing more saleable. > > Oops- sent this wrong. If everyone wants to send the recipes to me, I'm already compiling "Vorkosigan House, From Ma Kosti's Kitchen" for the LMB Mailing List. We can also make a menu section, where the various quotes from the books are matched with the recipes, something we're already doing for the VHFMKK cookbook. Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Dec 30 13:08:16 2004 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:08:16 -0500 Subject: *** Message-ID: <189DEA0E.3234A5E0.00184D6D@aol.com> I don't know when I'll be able to check my mail this weekend so...... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Try not to get too drunk to function this weekend ;o) -Crystal ^..^ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 30 13:44:04 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: random zelazny-related post In-Reply-To: References: <20041222152605.31734.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An off-topic comment I found on a blog: "Re: Lord of Light, there was an effort in the late 1970s during the post Star Wars sci fi boom to get a film version going, but financing fell apart. You can see some cool concept sketches done by Jack Kirby (yes, that Jack Kirby) at lordoflight.com. An interesting footnote to the saga is that the CIA picked up the script and production art and used it as cover for a secret operation in 1979 to smuggle American diplomats out of Iran by posing as studio executives scouting locations for the Lord of Light movie. Seriously." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_12/005386.php From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 30 17:47:23 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:47:23 +0000 Subject: *** In-Reply-To: <189DEA0E.3234A5E0.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: MedCat7 at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: *** Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:08:16 -0500 I don't know when I'll be able to check my mail this weekend so...... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Try not to get too drunk to function this weekend ;o) -Crystal ^..^ Why not? We will be blocking off the street again, and willprobably be drinking until the dawn. A happy New Years to all, unless you are chinese, in which case happy belated New Years. Jeff G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 30 17:55:31 2004 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:55:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: *** In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, jeff G. wrote: > A happy New Years to all, unless you are chinese, > in which case happy belated New Years. > > Jeff G. Shouldn't that be "prelated"? The nearest Chinese New Year's Day is 9 Feb 05. ObBrust: "Chinese calendar dates back centuries before the Julian calendar we use at the present day. It measures time based on the astronomical observations of the movement of the Sun, Moon and Stars..." From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Dec 31 01:49:25 2004 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:49:25 -0600 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! In-Reply-To: <008301c4ee2e$c301d500$0400a8c0@attbi.com> References: <008301c4ee2e$c301d500$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20041231094924.GA948@Durandal> I've seen and heard the term "live steel" bandied about quite a bit. Is there any consistent definition? I always took it to mean a weapon with a sharp/functional edge. I'm a bit curious whether or not fantasy writers make use of this term... I don't recall having run across it. Kat On Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 10:16:46PM -0700, Rion Bergquist wrote: > those who wish to have live steel at my shows as part of their costumes must > have said weaponry peace tied, my ops/security people have cable ties for > those who don't tie their own "toys" > > > What are the rules for those in costume who prefer to be armed? limits on > > sword lenth? Or will there be a sword check at the door? > > > > Jeff G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Dec 31 10:06:59 2004 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:06:59 EST Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book Message-ID: Rion Bergquist wrote on Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:19:58 -0700 >Steve and I discussed that... >I know there are recipes floating about, and I know that I can get a book >like that put together by one of the small press groups that work with my >show... >But I'd need someone to compile the recipes and then that same someone or >someone else to put said recipes into a format that included art and >anecdotes to make the whole thing more saleable. Hi, I do not have any real recipes, but, as David Dyer-Bennet pointed out, I posted some text extracts on dragaera.info. I have the 10 or so extracts collected in a document. I would have more except instead of just paging through the books looking for certain things, I haven't been able to stop myself from reading the whole book again. Then I have to stop reading to go type up an extract. If someone actually does some cooking, they could take pictures. Rion, would your small press group be able to reproduce pictures color/black and white? And remember what David is hoping to have on dragaera.info: David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:17:34 -0600 >The other kind of cooking article I hope to have some of some day is a >specific recipe, worked out in detail, with explanations of what >decisions they had to make along the way, why they made them, and how >their friends liked the result :-). Or perhaps several recipes >combined, as a report on a "Dragaeran dinner" (yes, it's been done >before). >And kinds of cooking articles I haven't thought of will be looked at >with a moderately open mind. David might also want to put pictures on the website. Bye. Linda G. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 31 10:18:16 2004 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 18:18:16 +0000 Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! In-Reply-To: <20041231094924.GA948@Durandal> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Tsarren To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: A Weekend in Dragaera! Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:49:25 -0600 I've seen and heard the term "live steel" bandied about quite a bit. Is there any consistent definition? I always took it to mean a weapon with a sharp/functional edge. I'm a bit curious whether or not fantasy writers make use of this term... I don't recall having run across it. Kat >>>>>>>>>> Hopefully they aren't refering to Morganti. I wouldn't recommend having your soul eaten as a form of entertainment. Jeff G. From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 15:02:46 2004 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:02:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Weekend in Dragaera! - Recipe book In-Reply-To: <20041230143120.GA25203@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20041231230247.66069.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jot Powers wrote: > I have done this stuff on a amatuer scale a few times. One Amatr. I'm willing to copyedit for spelling, grammar, etc. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 31 15:48:29 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:48:29 -0000 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <15a.4703ec20.2f0571b2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041231234849.PKXV7419.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> 1992 I think, I was in Robertsons ( a huge bookshop in Central Sydney) during their annual sale. They had a huge pile of books about 4-5 feet high all going for $AUD 1 (about 60 cents USD). There was a collection of 3 Vlad novels entitled Taltos the Assasin. Bought it on spec based on the blurb, hooked ever since. MArk From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 31 16:04:51 2004 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:04:51 -0000 Subject: OT: Tsunami Message-ID: <20050101000505.UXVO9818.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Hi All, I'm sure many of us have already made individual donations toward helping people in the wake of the Tsunami. Can anybody think of anything we can do collectively? The only idea I had is maybe a T-Shirt with some of the price going toward maybe the American Red Cross or something similar. Regards Mark From ginni.berger at juno.com Fri Dec 31 17:03:47 2004 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:03:47 -0500 Subject: Movie w/ Sethra Lavode Message-ID: <20041231.200925.2532.5.ginni.berger@juno.com> I see that commercial for Bayer aspirin several times a day since Mom's always watching CNN or HGTV, and the lady who's doing the commercial would be perfect for Sethra Lavode- she even has a small Noble's Peak. ;-) Anyone else see people who'd be perfect to play any other characters? Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Dec 31 21:20:09 2004 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 00:20:09 -0500 Subject: OT: Tsunami Message-ID: <400A99D8.4B196E19.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 12/31/2004 7:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Mark Tiller" writes: > I'm sure many of us have already made individual donations > toward helping people in the wake of the Tsunami. Can anybody > think of anything we can do collectively? > > The only idea I had is maybe a T-Shirt with some of the price > going toward maybe the American Red Cross or something > similar. Let's see.... "My parents survived Adron's Disaster and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." (hmm, maybe too insensitive..) "'I never dabble.' -- Adron e'Kieron" How about something concerning the Adrilankha Eleemosynary Society? --KG From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 31 23:31:21 2004 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 02:31:21 -0500 Subject: Movie w/ Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <20041231.200925.2532.5.ginni.berger@juno.com> References: <20041231.200925.2532.5.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <41D651C9.5060407@earthlink.net> ginnilee p berger wrote: >I see that commercial for Bayer aspirin several times a day since Mom's >always watching CNN or HGTV, and the lady who's doing the commercial >would be perfect for Sethra Lavode- she even has a small Noble's Peak. > You mean the ones with Buffy the Vampire Slayer's mom (Kristine Sutherland)? I can't imagine her as a brunette, as she's forever a blonde in my mind... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Fri Dec 31 12:49:23 2004 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:49:23 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20041231204923.GA8613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Dec 28, 2004 at 05:43:10PM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and > what got you all in to it? I rarely buy books for the cover, but Jhereg was an exception. I was not disappointed. First printing, too. -- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do." Steve Brust, Message <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00 at localhost>