--- Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net> wrote: > SPOILERS for Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, and Issola. . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > Jerry Friedman wrote: > > --- Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net> wrote: [On the possibility that Vlad will destroy the Cycle] > >>I would say that another huge objection is that Vlad hates Kelly, and > >>while he would be tempted to take Verra and the other Lords of > Judgment > >>to task (using his new toy) for various reasons, I don't think that he > >>would really do it unless he had a better reason than Kelly wanting > >>him to. > > > > > > As I recall, though, he told Kelly at the end of _Teckla_ that > > he respects what Kelly's doing. That might be a good reason. > > And as Kiera says in _Orca_, maybe being good at something is the > > best reason to do it. *shudder* > > But if you recall in Athyra and Issola, he makes his reluctance to > continue killing known (In Athyra: "I won't kill for you again," mumbled > > while injured, possibly referring to the Jhereg, but could also be in > response to Verra hiring him in Phoenix; in Issola: he ostensibly goes > to Verra's place to kill her, but he doesn't really intend to; rather, > he double-crosses the Jenoine by plotting against them with her help). > He'll do it out of necessity, but it's highly unlikely that he'll agree > to be a hired killer just because he's good at it. And while he > assassinates Domm in Orca, that seems to be more out of a sense of > justice than anything. So I guess you could argue that he's going to get > paid in different coin, much like Dragons are in battle. I think that's something like what I'm arguing. > >>Especially after knowing that Kelly's ideas won't work in the > >>current Empire. > > > > I'm not sure Vlad would trust Verra on that. On the other hand, > > from what Steven posted, Verra might be right. > > I think that she is. In 10,000 years, there might be a Teckla republic > long enough to implement those ideas, but I think that unless they can > manage to break the Cycle, once their turn is up, it'll be time for the > next reign. I think that those ideas need both the right circumstances > and the destruction of the Cycle to work: it's unlikely that any > revolution will work out during, say, a Dragon reign, and even if they > somehow break the Cycle, they've got to convince everyone that their way > is the best way, as even with superior numbers of peasants, the army > (i.e. Dragons and Dzur) can start mowing them down if they don't agree > with the premise of revolution. The Teckla need enough spellcasters (some of whom could be Teckla, like Paresh) to protect themselves from military magic to the point where their numbers tell. They don't have to convince everyone. As I understand it, the classic ways for them to work are to (a) point out the justice of their cause (might work on Lyorns and Iorich) (b) go on strike (might help, especially with the more mercantile types) (c) provoke the government, by atrocities if necessary (would Kelly do that?), so the government clamps down and gets everyone mad at it (might work quite well on the nobler houses--and by the way, no points for parallels with current events) (d) I thought I had something else in mind too. Somebody must be tampering with my memory. The apparent incompatibility between (a) and the atrocity part of (c) has not bothered some revolutionaries or interfered with their success. It sure bothers me, though. > >>Maybe Vlad can manage to live long enough to see those > >>ideas be viable, but not Kelly and his supporters. > > > > Well, okay, but if Kelly isn't around to annoy Vlad any more, > > doesn't that remove your objection? > > Well, it removes the entire premise (that of Kelly hiring Vlad to take > out the Lords of Judgment), and thus there would be nothing to object > to. That wasn't my premise. We had a communication failure. > My objection was based on the fact that I don't think Vlad would > willingly work for Kelly, because of the personal dislike he has for > him, as well as the fact that it bothers Vlad that Kelly doesn't care > about casualties and is willing to sacrifice whoever is necessary to > achieve his goal. Armed with what Verra told Vlad (and Kelly, but he > doesn't listen to gods), Vlad knows that Kelly's movement is just going > to get a lot of innocent people killed, mostly Easterners and quite > possibly his wife, and he has no desire to help that along. If Vlad thinks he can destroy the Cycle, that might change his view. > Whether Vlad would be willing to take out the Lords of Judgment for some > other agency is a different question. I would think not, unless they > really screw him, and as the holder of a Great Weapon that is quite a > threat to them, they better make sure he never finds out if they go and > screw him. I wasn't imagining that Kelly would hire Vlad to "work" on the gods. More that Kelly and the gods and whoever else would put Vlad in such a bind that killing the gods seems like a good idea. After all, he's good at assassination. And he won't tell anyone what he's doing--he never does. Of course, if this happened, Kelly or his distant successor would take credit. It was historically inevitable. Jerry Friedman _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com