On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 08:56, J C wrote: > Gah. If there's one thing that gets me going, it's humans insisting to > various degrees (you actually aren't so bad) that they are separate from > nature. > Of course Man is separate from nature. A brown bear is separate from nature. A giant redwood tree is separate from nature. A single-cell amoeba is separate from nature. A Romanian is separate from nature. Each element of nature exists both within and separate from it. > Man's conflict with "himself" is the SAME THING as man's conflict with > nature. No, it is a special case of Man's conflict with nature. In order to survive as a species, human beings, who are born premature, must form societies for mutual protection from nature, and to wrest from nature the means of survival. These societies grow, interact, and develop, and, in doing so, form social classes, which, in turn conflict with each other. In some cases, whole societies come into conflict. Once Man has achieved a sufficient level of culture (ie, technology) so that conflict with nature is no longer pressing (or, to be precise, when we can produce plenty for everyone) the opportunity exists for several things to happen: An end to class conflict; an end to conflict between societies, and discussions of how we're really part of nature and shouldn't consider ourselves in conflict with it. Recommended reading: _Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State_ by Frederich Engels. > Nature is the one thing that we all belief we're separate from, or "above". > But guess what, we're not. We act according to human NATURE. This is playing with words. The word "nature" as in "human nature" is closely related but not identical to "nature." The term "nature" refers, specifically, to that which exists independent of Man. There is a reason we needed to invent that word. Oh, and, by the way, I keep hearing about "human nature" but the only precise descriptions of it I've ever heard of involve characteristics that are clearly based on and learned from a given society, or culture. Other than the instinct to survive, just what IS "human nature?"