From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 1 12:24:46 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:24:46 EST Subject: OT: Tsunami Message-ID: <1b8.9aca4c2.2f08610e@aol.com> Mark Tiller wrote on Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:04:51 -0000 >I'm sure many of us have already made individual donations toward helping >people in the wake of the Tsunami. Can anybody think of anything we can do >collectively? >The only idea I had is maybe a T-Shirt with some of the price going toward >maybe the American Red Cross or something similar. Hi, No ideas, just give money. It is easy, if you want to use a credit card on the Internet. I have a credit card that I only use on the Internet. You can even give money in honor or in memorial of someone. The T-shirt idea is just not happening soon enough. http://www.usaid.gov/locations/asia_near_east/tsunami/ngolist.html has a list of lots of groups helping. I picked the American Red Cross International Response Fund. Bye. Linda G. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Jan 1 12:47:31 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:47:31 -0000 Subject: Tsunami In-Reply-To: <1b8.9aca4c2.2f08610e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050101204743.JREP769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Linda, You're probably right. I've also found a Buddhist Temple locally (I'm in the UK) that is boxing up clothes and sending them across, so I'm clearing my wardrobe of stuff that I'm not wearing anymore and giving it to them. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com [mailto:FRIEDA2133 at aol.com] Sent: 01 January 2005 20:25 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: OT: Tsunami Mark Tiller wrote on Sat, 1 Jan 2005 00:04:51 -0000 >I'm sure many of us have already made individual donations toward >helping people in the wake of the Tsunami. Can anybody think of >anything we can do collectively? >The only idea I had is maybe a T-Shirt with some of the price going >toward maybe the American Red Cross or something similar. Hi, No ideas, just give money. It is easy, if you want to use a credit card on the Internet. I have a credit card that I only use on the Internet. You can even give money in honor or in memorial of someone. The T-shirt idea is just not happening soon enough. http://www.usaid.gov/locations/asia_near_east/tsunami/ngolist.html has a list of lots of groups helping. I picked the American Red Cross International Response Fund. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 1 13:05:42 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:05:42 EST Subject: Today's music history lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: Today's music history lesson is from a discussion between Captain Khaavren and Lady Daro about the instruments in an Dragaeran orchestra: reed-pipes changer-pipes wood-pipes brass-pipes polychords idiophones, which mean the clappers, knockers and cymbals membranophones organophone Captain Khaavren speaking to Lady Daro: "'Why, madam, you are the orchestra, as I will demonstrate, if you will will allow me.' 'Certainly, sir. You may attempt to prove your case, and I will listen closely to your reasoning, though I warn you that I will accept no shoddy logic.' 'My logic will be as sharp as the sword with which you have lately delivered me from danger.' 'We had agreed not to speak of that.' 'Very well.' 'Then begin.' 'Listen: Your lips, first of all.' 'My lips? Why do you mention my lips?' 'Because they are part of the orchestra.' 'I perceive you are serious about this.' 'Entirely.' 'Very well, then, my lips. What part will they take?' 'They will be the reed pipes, with the humming of your voice as the reeds themselves.' 'Do you think so?' 'I am certain of it.' 'Then I accept my lips as the reed pipes, since you insist upon it. But is there a chanter-pipe in this orchestra, as well as the reed pipes.' 'There are chanter-pipes, reed-pipes, wood-pipes, and brass-pipes.' 'What, then, are the chanter-pipes?' 'What could they be but your own sweet bosom, with the delicate, steady pulsing of each breath that so occupies my thoughts?' 'Did you learn such speed in the service of His Majesty? Well, what, then, of the wood-pipes?' 'Your eyes, my only. They flutter and trill the high notes, yet have full, warm, deep timbre.' 'I did not know you knew so much of music, Captain. What, then, are the brass-pipes?' 'The set of your chin and the lines of your face provide the music with its power, and make the forceful statements without the sweet refrains would be insipid, but against which they are played with such beauty that all eyes moisten when the ears are so treated.' 'I like these comparisons.' 'I'm glad you do. And yet, you are laughing.' 'That is true, but I hope my laughter does not wound you--you are already wounded enough. I laugh from pleasure, and because I must laugh in the face of such compliments, lest they turn my head.' 'I am glad you are not laughing at me, at any rate, for my self-love could not stand the anguish.' 'Be reassured.' 'Well, what of the polychords? One cannot have an orchestra without them.' 'Your hands will be the polychords, each finger ringing a different note.' 'Well, what next? The idiophones, by which I mean the clappers, knockers and cymbals? 'These will be taken by the beating of your heart, which encloses my own in its gentle rhythms. 'Ah, ah! You are a poet, sir.' 'And are there, then, membranophones as well?' 'But surely, madam, your legs are the membranophones, for they support the orchestra, and can as well exhibit grace, elegance, and beauty.' 'You are making me blush.' 'You do so prettily.' 'It seems we have nearly completed our orchestra, except for the organophone, which must only be played by a master, yet which can produce music which excites, terrifies, strupefies, or calls up any of countless other emotions, all with the subtlest touch of the fingers.' 'Oh, madam, no gentleman could be so crude as to detail the location of this most sacred of all instruments.' 'Ah, now I am blushing and laughing at once, and my dignity is gone forever. I will never forgive you.' 'But have I convinced you, at least, that you are worthy of discussion?' 'I assure you, I surrender fully. What do you want to know? 'What else but everything?' 'Everything is a great deal. Where shall I begin? 'Tell me of your family.'" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-first, pages 315-317 From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Jan 1 13:06:15 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:06:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Tsunami In-Reply-To: <1b8.9aca4c2.2f08610e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050101210615.33805.qmail@web13126.mail.yahoo.com> --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > No ideas, just give money. It is easy, if you want to use a credit card > on the Internet. I have a credit card that I only use on the Internet. > You can even give money in honor or in memorial of someone. The T-shirt > idea is just not happening soon enough. I agree. Doing something together is fun and cute, and good if we can do it fast. This isn't the time for cute, it's the time for fast. ObBrust #1: "I *am* cute!" ObBrust #2: "Grab Blackwand and get your ass over here. Now." -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 1 15:07:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:07:51 -0700 Subject: Tsunami In-Reply-To: <1b8.9aca4c2.2f08610e@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c4f056$b8a1c640$667ba8c0@Dad133> My brother says: One of our clients lost his wife and children. My friend's friend lost his family. One girl I know turned down a position at Le Meridien which was destroyed with almost all the staff being killed. Her hotel in Laguna survived the brunt of it all. THe hotel I was at 3 weeks ago was destroyed and staff killed. Which is sobering. I have one friend who we haven't heard from. He owns a scuba resort in Krabi. Some resorts there were barely touched, others levelled. It is mind numbing. From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 09:29:09 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:29:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: poker, "Seven-Toed Pete" Message-ID: <20050102172910.71691.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> This question and comment came up on the American Dialect Soc'y mailing list. Knowing that the man of the list is a serious student of the sport, I thought it at least marginal to our topic: QUESTION (JL): "Seven-Toed Pete" is an American and Canadian synonym for seven-card stud poker. Can anyone dig up any early cites* or lore concerning this name? [* cite = citation = mention in print or otherwise on record] COMMENT (LH): Funny, I've never heard that, but there's a poker variant involving three cards that's known as three-toed Pete. The rules are, in fact, roughly stud-like. I've never heard of any other versions of n-toed Pete (or n-toed anyone else, for that matter) where n=/=3. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel, by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 3 05:06:50 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:06:50 -0500 Subject: ta da...recipie Message-ID: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> I lost the mail with someone's email who said they's compile the recipies, but atleast we can get some cooks to try this and come up w/ a recipie for it... Dried black mushrooms -pour boling water over (let soak for 20 mins?) Diced scallions, leeks, little dill, various peppers (diced w/ mushrooms) Thin strips of kethna (pork) Quick fried (stir fried?) w/ garlic and ginger Put over pasta -_Book of Taltos:Pheonix_ pg? chp12? I think it sounds great! I loooove mushrooms! -Crystal ^..^ From melalvai at kemenel.org Mon Jan 3 07:27:56 2005 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (melalvai at kemenel.org) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:27:56 -0500 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <1104766076.41d9647c2fbd3@www.kemenel.org> -----Original Message----- From: MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] >When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what got >you all in to it? Several years ago, my husband got me started with Jhereg. It's OUR favorite series--he has his favorites, and I have my favorites, but it's one we agree on. I have to give SKZB some credit for our marriage holding together so far, because it's those things we have in common that really matter (10 years last August!) I think it's a common ground because while there is humor (which I require), the world itself is treated seriously (which he requires). Rachel From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 3 07:49:12 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 10:49:12 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:05:23 EST." <200412282306.iBSN61rl022355@fort-point-station.mit.edu> Message-ID: <200501031549.j03FnCMR009798@all-night-tool.mit.edu> My college LARP group did a 10 day game set in Dragaera. I played a half-Phoenix who magically manages to give birth to a full-blooded Phoenix (and therefore the new Phoenix heir). > MedCat7 at aol.com asked > > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. > > Brust and what got you all in to it? > > I picked up Jhereg from my local bookstore sometime after it first came out > (4/83), but I think before _TRiH_ or _Yendi_ had hit the shelves (7/84). > From pjarrett at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 08:37:49 2005 From: pjarrett at gmail.com (Patrick Jarrett) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:37:49 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <200501031549.j03FnCMR009798@all-night-tool.mit.edu> References: <200412282306.iBSN61rl022355@fort-point-station.mit.edu> <200501031549.j03FnCMR009798@all-night-tool.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3def328f05010308375fd99d3e@mail.gmail.com> I was a young lad, probably around 12 or 13 when I had gone to the local bookstore and stood staring at the shelves of fantasy books trying to find something to read. I must have stood there a while because a clerk came up to me concerned because I had spent so long on this one rack. When I explained I was simply looking for something new to read he grinned and pulled a book off the shelf behind me He handed me Jhereg and then bought it for me. Seridusly. A stdre clerk bought me a book solely to share a series he enjoyed. Needless to say I fell in love with it. -- Patrick On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 10:49:12 -0500, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > My college LARP group did a 10 day game set in Dragaera. I > played a half-Phoenix who magically manages to give birth to a > full-blooded Phoenix (and therefore the new Phoenix heir). > > > MedCat7 at aol.com asked > > > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. > > > Brust and what got you all in to it? > > > > I picked up Jhereg from my local bookstore sometime after it first came out > > (4/83), but I think before _TRiH_ or _Yendi_ had hit the shelves (7/84). > > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 3 10:00:34 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:00:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: ta da...recipie In-Reply-To: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Dried black mushrooms > -pour boling water over (let soak for 20 mins?) This is contrary to my limited cooking knowledge - in the recipes I've read one reconstitutes dried mushrooms with warm water (for 20-30 min). From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 3 10:42:25 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:42:25 -0700 Subject: ta da...recipie References: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:00 AM Subject: Re: ta da...recipie > > > On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > Dried black mushrooms > > -pour boling water over (let soak for 20 mins?) > > This is contrary to my limited cooking knowledge - in the recipes I've > read one reconstitutes dried mushrooms with warm water (for 20-30 min). > I always wondered if this was actually a little commentary on the class differentiation between Dragearen and Eastern society. Dragearens would have access to cooling spells, and thus could keep fresh fruits and vegetables as we would in a refrigerator. Easterners, lacking sorcery, have to have dried fruits in a city, plus fresh fruits would probably be taxed more. Jeff G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 3 10:45:54 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 13:45:54 -0500 Subject: ta da...recipie Message-ID: <09D6FC8B.1F59D319.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Re: ta da...recipie Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 13:45:18 -0500 Size: 858 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20050103/9e9249e5/attachment.mht From zarkon at illrepute.org Mon Jan 3 11:08:19 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 14:08:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: @> When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and @> what got you all in to it? I occasionally get a mood on me where I want to read a terrible Fantasy novel. This happened once when I was at Barnes & Noble on an unrelated binge, and I ran through the appropriate aisle. I took one look at the cover of "Yendi", and I thought "A-ha. It's perfect! It's like some kind of fantasy version of the Flinx of the Commonwealth series. This is bound to suck." There was a quote on there about how someone was in love with the person that would later kill them, and I figured I was in for a horrible treat. And then I got it home and it massively disappointed me by being very good. After that some predictable things happened, a couple of which involved eBay since some stuff was out of print. This would be about six years ago or so. As for which are the favorites, I can't say for sure; I've finished with the novels, but I've just now gotten some of the short stories and I'm still missing a few, plus I haven't read the graphic novel yet. Which, hey, might be my favorite after all. You never know, right? In the meantime, it's Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille. Which Steve doesn't seem to like, but who cares what that guy thinks anyway? From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 3 11:28:12 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:28:12 -0700 Subject: ta da...recipie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c4f1ca$5e680660$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff G wrote: > I always wondered if this was actually a little commentary on the > class differentiation between Dragearen and Eastern society. > Dragearens would have access to cooling spells, and thus could keep > fresh fruits and vegetables as we would in a refrigerator. > Easterners, lacking sorcery, have to have dried fruits in a city, > plus fresh fruits would probably be taxed more. > > Jeff G. At least the classes of Dragaerens we see the most. Rural serfs seem to be living in a completely different life - sort of like the rural people in industrialized countries of the 19th century. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 3 11:40:57 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:40:57 -0700 Subject: ta da...recipie References: <000201c4f1ca$5e680660$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:28 PM Subject: RE: ta da...recipie > Jeff G wrote: > > > I always wondered if this was actually a little commentary on the > > class differentiation between Dragearen and Eastern society. > > Dragearens would have access to cooling spells, and thus could keep > > fresh fruits and vegetables as we would in a refrigerator. > > Easterners, lacking sorcery, have to have dried fruits in a city, > > plus fresh fruits would probably be taxed more. > > > > Jeff G. > > At least the classes of Dragaerens we see the most. Rural serfs seem to be > living in a completely different life - sort of like the rural people in > industrialized countries of the 19th century. > > > True, I seem to remember a reference regarding Eastern Tekla on an estate, to the nobility the would be pretty much interchangeable. Jeff G. From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Jan 3 12:45:03 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:45:03 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <3def328f05010308375fd99d3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <200501031549.j03FnCMR009798@all-night-tool.mit.edu> Message-ID: <41D9687F.6173.156D64F@localhost> On 3 Jan 2005 at 11:37, Patrick Jarrett wrote > > He handed me Jhereg and then bought it for me. Seridusly. A stdre > clerk bought me a book solely to share a series he enjoyed. > > Needless to say I fell in love with it. > > -- Patrick I would also have a serious penchant for the clerk. I get that way about people who buy me books, kind of like an addict and a supplier... M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jan 3 16:10:48 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:10:48 -0600 Subject: ta da...recipie In-Reply-To: (Philip Hart's message of "Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:00:34 -0800 (PST)") References: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >> Dried black mushrooms >> -pour boling water over (let soak for 20 mins?) > > This is contrary to my limited cooking knowledge - in the recipes I've > read one reconstitutes dried mushrooms with warm water (for 20-30 min). Chinese black mushrooms want boiling water, generally. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 3 20:44:24 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:44:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: way OT - looking for a horror story about clowns In-Reply-To: References: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, several years ago I came across a wildly creative and disturbing story that takes place in a clown universe. I think it's a horror story. It was recommended by someone like Neil Gaiman and was available on the web. All I can remember is some bizarreness involving horns and rubber chickens and clown sex. Unfortunately google isn't yielding me a link. I'd appreciate a lead if anyone has any idea what I'm talking about. Thanks. From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Jan 4 02:30:09 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 04:30:09 -0600 Subject: ta da...recipie In-Reply-To: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050104103009.GB3740@Durandal> The dill and ginger has got to be an odd combination of flavors. Kat On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 08:06:50AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > I lost the mail with someone's email who said they's compile the recipies, but atleast we can get some cooks to try this and come up w/ a recipie for it... > > Dried black mushrooms > -pour boling water over (let soak for 20 mins?) > Diced scallions, leeks, little dill, various peppers (diced w/ mushrooms) > Thin strips of kethna (pork) > Quick fried (stir fried?) w/ garlic and ginger > Put over pasta > -_Book of Taltos:Pheonix_ pg? chp12? > > I think it sounds great! I loooove mushrooms! > -Crystal ^..^ From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Jan 4 05:36:05 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 08:36:05 -0500 Subject: ta da...recipie Message-ID: <06AF59DE.1D4C94A7.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:30:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tsarren writes: >The dill and ginger has got to be an odd combination of flavors. >Kat > > I don't think dill really has that much flavor. But if my great yiayia can taste that there is not a pinch of salt in tigganithers (sp?), then I am open that someone can taste dill! -C >On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 08:06:50AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >> I lost the mail with someone's email who said they's compile the recipies, but atleast we can get some cooks to try this and come up w/ a recipie for it... >> >> Dried black mushrooms >> ? -pour boling water over (let soak for 20 mins?) >> Diced scallions, leeks, little dill, various peppers (diced w/ mushrooms) >> Thin strips of kethna (pork) >> Quick fried (stir fried?) w/ garlic and ginger >> Put over pasta >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-_Book of Taltos:Pheonix_ pg? chp12? >> >> I think it sounds great! I loooove mushrooms! >> -Crystal ^..^ > From books at bofh.com Tue Jan 4 06:04:19 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:04:19 -0700 Subject: way OT - looking for a horror story about clowns In-Reply-To: References: <3CC3297F.073C2EFD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050104140419.GA12629@bofh.com> On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 08:44:24PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > Hi, several years ago I came across a wildly creative and disturbing > story that takes place in a clown universe. I think it's a horror story. > It was recommended by someone like Neil Gaiman and was available on the > web. All I can remember is some bizarreness involving horns and rubber > chickens and clown sex. Unfortunately google isn't yielding me a link. > I'd appreciate a lead if anyone has any idea what I'm talking about. > Thanks. I shudder to think of the things you're finding by googling for horns "rubber chickens" "clown sex" -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 4 06:24:42 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:24:42 -0700 Subject: ta da...recipie References: <06AF59DE.1D4C94A7.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:36 AM Subject: Re: ta da...recipie > In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:30:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tsarren writes: > > >The dill and ginger has got to be an odd combination of flavors. > >Kat > > > > > I don't think dill really has that much flavor. But if my great yiayia can taste that there is not a pinch of salt in tigganithers (sp?), then I am open that someone can taste dill! > -C Heh. I have an excellent recipe for dill chicken, if one likes casseroles. You can definitely taste the dill. In this case, however, with dill, ginger, and peppers I can see it working. Although if I made it I would replace the dill and peppers with ginger and ginger, respectively. Jeff G. From rct9911 at comcast.net Tue Jan 4 15:25:33 2005 From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:25:33 -0600 Subject: just for fun References: <736BCCC1.0C8EFE17.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <000801c4f2b4$d6863050$6901a8c0@BOB> > When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what > got you all in to it? For me, it was a few years ago, and my family was on a camping trip in the Smoky Mountains. I was extremely bored and dismayed at the toilet facilities which had no sinks, and my sister had _Jhereg_ out and was reading it. I asked if I could borrow it and, as she never leaves home without at least five paperback fantasy novels, she let me. After I read the first page I was hooked, though my sister kept trying to spoil things for me by asking leading questions like "Have you got to Morrolan yet?" Needless to say, she's a hobo now, as well as a boring lurker on this list, so everyone try to draw her out by saying "Haha Jessica, you're a hobo!" My favorite is still Jhereg, and Robin Hobb is my idol. From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 19:16:24 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:16:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <000801c4f2b4$d6863050$6901a8c0@BOB> Message-ID: <20050105031624.32785.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rebecca wrote: Needless to say, > she's a hobo now, as well as a boring lurker on this list, so everyone try > to draw her out by saying "Haha Jessica, you're a hobo!" "Hobo"?? Obviously not the meaning of the word that I'm used to: Inflected Form(s): plural hoboes also hobos Etymology: origin unknown 1 : a migratory worker 2 : a homeless and usually penniless vagabond http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?hobo -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 19:17:33 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:17:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: way OT - looking for a horror story about clowns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050105031733.72419.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> try the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.written. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Jan 4 19:47:46 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:47:46 EST Subject: You're awful sensitive for an assassin, Boss. Message-ID: <83.1e4b448b.2f0cbd62@aol.com> Hi, Loiosh thinking to Vlad: "You're awful sensitive for an assassin, Boss." "You've said that before, Loiosh." Issola, Chapter 7, paperback, page 106 Does anyone remember Loiosh using that sentence before? Book search found Cawti saying "For an assassin, you're quite sensitive, Lord Taltos." Yendi, Chapter 8, Ace July 1984 paperback, page 92 The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, Chapter 8, page 238 Bye. Linda G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 4 22:25:40 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <20050105031624.32785.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050105031624.32785.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- Rebecca wrote: > > Needless to say, > > she's a hobo now, as well as a boring lurker on this list, so everyone try > > to draw her out by saying "Haha Jessica, you're a hobo!" > > "Hobo"?? Obviously not the meaning of the word that I'm used to: > > Inflected Form(s): plural hoboes also hobos > Etymology: origin unknown > 1 : a migratory worker > 2 : a homeless and usually penniless vagabond > http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?hobo dictionary.com (which I find I prefer to m-w.com) has "One who wanders from place to place without a permanent home or a means of livelihood" as the first definition. This seems applicable to someone out of college wandering the country taking short jobs or none - which is what I guessed Rebecca meant. This by way of asking if you have an opinion about dictionary.com (American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition plus [depending on the word] many other sources) vs m-w. Nothing like a print dictionary for sitting down and reading, but more and more I'm relying on the web. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 5 05:21:46 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:21:46 -0500 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <2D1F1BBF.4D07D43D.00184D6D@aol.com> You should be greatful to your sister for giving you the book! I am greatful my fiance doesn't care that I took his book and never asked for it back (though I returned all the other books I borrowed). In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:25:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Rebecca" writes: > >> When did everyone discover the wonder that is Steven K.Z. Brust and what >> got you all in to it? > > >For me, it was a few years ago, and my family was on a camping trip in the >Smoky Mountains. I was extremely bored and dismayed at the toilet facilities >which had no sinks, and my sister had _Jhereg_ out and was reading it. I >asked if I could borrow it and, as she never leaves home without at least >five paperback fantasy novels, she let me. After I read the first page I was >hooked, though my sister kept trying to spoil things for me by asking >leading questions like "Have you got to Morrolan yet?" Needless to say, >she's a hobo now, as well as a boring lurker on this list, so everyone try >to draw her out by saying "Haha Jessica, you're a hobo!" > >My favorite is still Jhereg, and Robin Hobb is my idol. > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 5 05:24:24 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:24:24 -0500 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: <783A3762.76AB0AA4.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/4/2005 10:16:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Mark A. Mandel" writes: > >--- Rebecca wrote: > > Needless to say, >> she's a hobo now, as well as a boring lurker on this list, so everyone try >> to draw her out by saying "Haha Jessica, you're a hobo!" > >"Hobo"?? Obviously not the meaning of the word that I'm used to: > >Inflected Form(s): plural hoboes also hobos >Etymology: origin unknown >1 : a migratory worker >2 : a homeless and usually penniless vagabond > ?http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?hobo > And here I thought a "hobo" was a guy with a bandana on a stick who jumped from train to train looking for work! But with the way things are today, hey, a hobo can have a lap top! ;o) -C ^..^ From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 5 05:26:48 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:26:48 -0500 Subject: You're awful sensitive for an assassin, Boss. Message-ID: <2ADB060A.31ADF82C.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/4/2005 10:47:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >Hi, > >Loiosh thinking to Vlad: > ? "You're awful sensitive for an assassin, Boss." > ? "You've said that before, Loiosh." > >Issola, Chapter 7, paperback, page 106 > >Does anyone remember Loiosh using that sentence before? > > He probably did say it before, but Vlad might have decided it wasn't important to tell us that at the time. Besides, "memory is like a whatchacallit." -C ^..^ >Book search found Cawti saying >"For an assassin, you're quite sensitive, Lord Taltos." > >Yendi, Chapter 8, Ace July 1984 paperback, page 92 >The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, Chapter 8, page 238 > >Bye. > >Linda G. > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 5 09:42:13 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 12:42:13 -0500 Subject: bumperstickers Message-ID: <30AA0B96.1E558FFF.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok, here's the deal with the bumperstickers. To purchase 125 stickers (minimum) the total cost will be $181.25. I know a few people will be willing to buy a bunch of stickers, but I don't want to be stuck with the rest of the amount. Each sticker from the company is $1.45. I was thinking of asking $2 for each sticker to help cover the cost. If enough people are willing to buy a sticker or 3 or 4 I will make this happen. If not, well then there will be no stickers. I wouldn't mind covering the whole thing if I didn't have to save up for a wedding, Opus, and school loans. If you want some stickers, let me know how many you want in an e-mail and I will e-mail back my address for you to send the money to. I will accept any donations toward this, too. If for some reason i end up with profit (which I highly doubt), I would be more than happy to send every penny to Steve. Thank you for your help everyone. -Crystal ^..^ From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 5 10:42:13 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:42:13 -0700 Subject: bumperstickers References: <30AA0B96.1E558FFF.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:42 AM Subject: bumperstickers If for some reason i end up with profit (which I highly doubt), I would be more than happy to send every penny to Steve. > -Crystal ^..^ > Shhhhh! Don't say that so loud! The IRS might here you! Jeff G. From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 12:21:21 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:21:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: bumperstickers In-Reply-To: <30AA0B96.1E558FFF.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050105202121.77654.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ok, here's the deal with the bumperstickers. To purchase 125 stickers > (minimum) the total cost will be $181.25. I know a few people will be willing > to buy a bunch of stickers, but I don't want to be stuck with the rest of the > amount. Each sticker from the company is $1.45. I was thinking of asking $2 > for each sticker to help cover the cost. If enough people are willing to buy > a sticker or 3 or 4 I will make this happen. So what are they going to say again? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 13:40:41 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:40:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Re: bumperstickers Message-ID: <20050105214041.31744.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> This was evidently intended for the list in general, or for Crystal in particular, but accidentally sent to me only. Crystal, a.k.a. MedCat7 at aol.com, is proposing to have them made. I was just asking a question. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] --- Patrick Jarrett wrote: > What about CafePress? Is a little more expensive than the current > price, but it would avoid leaving you holding the bag. > > -- Patrick > > > On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:21:21 -0800 (PST), Mark A. Mandel > wrote: > > > > --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Ok, here's the deal with the bumperstickers. To purchase 125 stickers > > > (minimum) the total cost will be $181.25. I know a few people will be [...] > > > > So what are they going to say again? > > > > -- Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From pjarrett at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 14:26:22 2005 From: pjarrett at gmail.com (Patrick Jarrett) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:26:22 -0500 Subject: bumperstickers In-Reply-To: <20050105214041.31744.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050105214041.31744.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3def328f050105142641f61d8e@mail.gmail.com> Whoops, sorry about that. Thanks for forwarding it to the list. -- Patrick On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:40:41 -0800 (PST), Mark A. Mandel wrote: > This was evidently intended for the list in general, or for Crystal in > particular, but accidentally sent to me only. Crystal, a.k.a. MedCat7 at aol.com, > is proposing to have them made. I was just asking a question. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > --- Patrick Jarrett wrote: > > > What about CafePress? Is a little more expensive than the current > > price, but it would avoid leaving you holding the bag. > > > > -- Patrick > > > > > > On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:21:21 -0800 (PST), Mark A. Mandel > > wrote: > > > > > > --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, here's the deal with the bumperstickers. To purchase 125 stickers > > > > (minimum) the total cost will be $181.25. I know a few people will be > [...] > > > > > > So what are they going to say again? > > > > > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! > http://my.yahoo.com > > From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 17:46:07 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:46:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: seventeen songs Message-ID: <20050106014607.36055.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> Not 17 songs exactly, but... well... The 17th annual British filk convention, Dixseption* (http://www.contabile.org.uk/dixsept/), will be taking place February 4-6. Below is the note that I sent to the filk_UK list, which I belong to. >>>>> It has suddenly occurred to me that if there are any Steven Brust fans attending Dixseption it would be a most appropriate occasion for filks about his books. See http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/seventeen.html and http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/filks/filks.html#Brust -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] <<<<< Conversely, any Brust fans who are able to attend (which I am not) and who enjoy singing might want to go and spread the word there. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] * The British filkers have a deplorable habit of giving their conventions punning names. Some previous ones were 16 Tones, the Quinze Filk Festival, Contabile Fortean, and XIlophone (#11). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 18:17:23 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:17:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sigh of satisfaction In-Reply-To: <20050106014607.36055.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050106021723.24213.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> My father's U-U minister (a woman, somewhat younger than me): It's been so nice talking to you this past week. Jerry: Same here. [shakes hands] Minister: Cold hands. Jerry: Like my heart. [Minister slaps Jerry's arm with a glove] Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 19:30:22 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:30:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: The pronunciation of "jhereg" Message-ID: <20050106033022.74170.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Steve gives the pronunciation of "jhereg" with the stress on the second syllable (pronunciation guide in _Jhereg_; http://dragaera.info/encyclopedia/data/pg-test/#LETTERJ), but in the spell that Vlad uses to make his initial contact with Rocza it is evidently on the first syllable (http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/filks/RoczasSong.html): Come to me, blood of my House. Join me, hunt with me, find me. Let the winds of Jungle's night Stay the hunter in her flight. Evening's breath to witch's mind Let our fates be intertwined. Jhereg! Do not pass me by! Show me where thy soul doth lie! (Jhereg, Ace edition, sixth printing, February 1987, pages 225-226, copyright 1983 by Stephen K. Z. Brust; typo corrected) But there is no contradiction between these. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS. The fact that we are reading these books in English tends to conceal the different languages appearing in them. "Jhereg" is presumably a Dragaeran word, like the names of all the Houses except Hawk, Orca, and Dragon, as well as the other unfamiliar animals like kethna and darr. But the spell is "a close variant" (page 235, Epilogue) of the spell that Vlad used to make a bargain with Loiosh's mother, and that "was an old spell, my grandfather had said, and had been used in the East for thousands of years, unchanged" (page 5, Prologue). And therefore that spell was almost certainly in an Eastern language, specifically, Fenarian. Even if the Dragaeran word (translated by Brust as) "jhereg" and the corresponding Fenarian word are related and similar, they would not have to be identical. The word "dragon" has the identical spelling and meaning in English and in French, but the pronunciations are quite different. What's more, Fenarian is Hungarian, and all Hungarian words are accented on the first syllable. I know this professionally, but you can find a sufficiently authoritative statement in the Afterword (or whatever it's called) of _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_. Furthermore, the spell is an older form of Fenarian. Tradition holds it to have been unchanged for thousands of years, and Brust-the-translator's (http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#Brusts) use of the archaic English words "thy" and "doth" and the transitive verb "stay" supports this assertion. (Actually, that would make it more likely to be similar to the Dragaeran word, but even with the greatly slowed pace of language change we see on Dragaera, a time depth of over 200,000 years is enough to account for any difference we like.) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Jan 5 20:00:17 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:00:17 -0700 Subject: House Pictures References: <20050106033022.74170.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005601c4f3a4$3c00fba0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Hi folks, In addition to the Dragaera Cookbook project and the "2006 Dragaera Summit" I and some of my staffers are working on helping Steve put together a bunch of art for merchandise. It is our goal to have professionally done pictures of the creatures that represent each house. The problem is that several of the artists have not read the books yet (we are working on this). I would appreciate it if you folks could dig through your respective gray matter and give me quotes (with sources) that describe each House's patron animal and the colors that each house is generally seen wearing i.e. Dragons wear Blackand Silver and have, well a Dragon as their patron animal. The sooner we have these descriptions the sooner we'll have art together for Steve to approve. After that we hope to have a Merch section on the Dragaera site that will have shirts, mugs, and various other print on demand Dragaera fan gear. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 5 20:24:36 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:24:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: The pronunciation of "jhereg" In-Reply-To: <20050106033022.74170.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050106033022.74170.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jan 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > Steve gives the pronunciation of "jhereg" with the stress on the second > syllable (pronunciation guide in _Jhereg_; > http://dragaera.info/encyclopedia/data/pg-test/#LETTERJ), but in the spell that > Vlad uses to make his initial contact with Rocza it is evidently on the first > syllable (http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/filks/RoczasSong.html): > > Come to me, blood of my House. Join me, hunt with me, find me. > > Let the winds of Jungle's night > Stay the hunter in her flight. > Evening's breath to witch's mind > Let our fates be intertwined. > Jhereg! Do not pass me by! > Show me where thy soul doth lie! [lots of Dragaera erudition snipped] Just wanted to note that (at least in English versification, esp. iambic) it's common for the first foot to be reversed (Timothy Steele puts it at upwards of 10% for iambic verse in _All The Fun's In How You Say A Thing_); that before a caesura it's easier to have a metric variation; that such a variation can show emphasis, a turn, a breath; and that I probably prefer the poem with an iambic "Jhereg" - it adds a bit of drama. Excellent line of thought in any case. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 5 20:31:27 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:31:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <005601c4f3a4$3c00fba0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> References: <20050106033022.74170.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> <005601c4f3a4$3c00fba0$0400a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jan 2005, Rion Bergquist wrote: > I would appreciate it if you folks could dig through your respective gray > matter and give me quotes (with sources) that describe each House's patron > animal and the colors that each house is generally seen wearing > i.e. Dragons wear Blackand Silver and have, well a Dragon as their patron > animal. A detailed description of the houses is available at Mark Mandel's site: http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html A description of the fauna is available at http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 20:44:21 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:44:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: The pronunciation of "jhereg" In-Reply-To: <20050106033022.74170.qmail@web13121.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050106044421.4014.qmail@web13123.mail.yahoo.com> > What's more, Fenarian is Hungarian, and all Hungarian words are accented on > the first syllable. I know this professionally, but you can find a > sufficiently authoritative statement in the Afterword (or whatever it's > called) of _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_. D'ohhh! that's the elder Brust's "A Note on Fenarian Pronunciatio0n" in the front of _Brokedown Palace_. i was getting it mixed up with his note on hungarian folktales. mark by hand who has just accidentally erased this note and had to type it by hand again __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 06:52:04 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 09:52:04 -0500 Subject: bumperstickers Message-ID: <56E5D4F0.5832B41A.00184D6D@aol.com> Now that that part is cleared up... I didn't know Cafepress sold bumperstickers. But yeah, the price seems a little high, but I don't want to be stuck w/ $100 worth of bumperstickers (key being $100). Also, it covers shipping. -C In a message dated 1/5/2005 5:26:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Patrick Jarrett writes: >Whoops, sorry about that. Thanks for forwarding it to the list. > >-- Patrick > > >On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:40:41 -0800 (PST), Mark A. Mandel > wrote: >> This was evidently intended for the list in general, or for Crystal in >> particular, but accidentally sent to me only. Crystal, a.k.a. MedCat7 at aol.com, >> is proposing to have them made. I was just asking a question. >> >> -- Mark A. Mandel >> ? http://cracksandshards.com >> ? a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website >> ? [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] >> >> --- Patrick Jarrett wrote: >> >> > What about CafePress? Is a little more expensive than the current >> > price, but it would avoid leaving you holding the bag. >> > >> > -- Patrick >> > >> > >> > On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:21:21 -0800 (PST), Mark A. Mandel >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >> > > >> > > > Ok, here's the deal with the bumperstickers. To purchase 125 stickers >> > > > (minimum) the total cost will be $181.25. I know a few people will be >> ? ? [...] >> > > >> > > So what are they going to say again? >> > > >> > > -- Mark A. Mandel >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >> http://my.yahoo.com >> >> > From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 07:38:02 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 07:38:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: ta da...recipie In-Reply-To: <06AF59DE.1D4C94A7.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050106153802.31312.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:30:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tsarren > writes: > > >The dill and ginger has got to be an odd combination of flavors. > >Kat > > > > > I don't think dill really has that much flavor. To me it has a strong and very distinctive flavor, though that flavor is pretty weak in dried dill weed. > But if my great yiayia > can taste that there is not a pinch of salt in tigganithers (sp?), then > I am open that someone can taste dill! I assume yiayia means grandma, but just out of curiosity, what are "tigganithers"? And what language are these words in? By the way, I know pedantry is out of place on this list :-) but you taste salt with your tongue and "taste" herbs with your nose, so it's not *quite* the same thing. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 08:17:42 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:17:42 -0500 Subject: OT: meddeling in affairs Message-ID: <6E3A30C5.6FFB2BCB.00184D6D@aol.com> I know this is off topic, but it pertains to a thread that was out a while ago about meddling in the affiars of wizards and I saw this. Since I am a cat lover I thought I'd share this: "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats for they are subtle and will piss on your: computer, homework, laundry, carpet, stereo, all of the above." Enjoy -C >^..^< From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 08:44:28 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: ta da...recipie Message-ID: <2F50F8AC.393BD326.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Re: ta da...recipie Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:43:47 -0500 Size: 1802 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20050106/1609e9da/attachment.mht From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 10:16:50 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:16:50 -0500 Subject: 181 Message-ID: <2D932683.24CC81B1.00184D6D@aol.com> I need a few more people to buy stickers. The total is down to $131 (or 121...someone is undecided how many he wants). This is good, but I still need more. I will have 75-65 stickers left. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 12:09:41 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:09:41 -0500 Subject: $95 Message-ID: <477C70FE.08E62D47.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok, the total is down to $95 with 82 stickers left. Any more takers? Come on, you know you all want some. They will be white with black wording on a 3 3/4" x 15" sticker. The quote will be: "Everyone generalizes from one example. Atleast I do." _Issola_ chp.14 pg.211 Just a few more and I will put the order in. Just like 7 more. That's all! -C From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 12:47:03 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:47:03 EST Subject: $95 Message-ID: <15c.47490633.2f0efdc7@aol.com> In a message dated 01/06/2005 3:44:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >Ok, the total is down to $95 with 82 stickers left. Any more takers? Come on, >you know you all want some. >They will be white with black wording on a 3 3/4" x 15" sticker. The quote will be: >"Everyone generalizes from one example. Atleast I do." _Issola_ chp.14 pg.211 >Just a few more and I will put the order in. Just like 7 more. That's all! > >-C Come on and pony up ya cheap bastages!!! Support the cause!!! John D. Barbato, OD From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 6 13:52:12 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:52:12 -0500 Subject: stickers!!! Message-ID: <6E86B37C.00B33DB6.00184D6D@aol.com> At lunch tomorrow I will put in the order (noon EST)! Thank you for helping out everyone. I am very greatful to all of you. You can still order if you haven't already. There are still plenty left. They are flying fast though! Again, thank you everybody. Wish me luck at my Dr.'s appt. tomorrow. I have been real dizzy (and it's not from the blonde;o) everyday around 1pm since Monday. -Crystal ^..^ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 14:33:11 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <20050106223311.92793.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> --- Casey Rousseau wrote: > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > > The fact that I dealt with German as a language learned as an > > > adolescent, not as a child, may be warping my view here. But > > > it seems to me that everything about grammar they taught us > > > in English there was some German equivalent, and then there > > > was about three times that much *additional* stuff that > > > applied only to German, not to English. > > > > But that doesn't count the sh*tloads that you never had to > > learn as a native speaker of English because native speakers > > don't get it wrong, but that L2 learners have to learn by > > study. For example: > > > > Give the big blue book to Jane. -- fine > > Give it to Jane. -- fine > > Give Jane the big blue book. -- fine > > Give Jane it. -- WRONG!!! > > Hmm. Does it boil down to comparing whether it is harder to learn the > case > endings that make word order less important in a language like German > than > it is to learn the rules of word order in a language like English? As Mark said, there's a lot more than that. For instance, you might try explaining to a foreigner how to use "say", "tell", "talk", and "speak". For more examples of English grammar we all take for granted, see . A good one to start with might be , about what triggers words such as "any" and (in American English) "budge". I haven't mastered it, but it shows how complicated things are. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 6 15:02:06 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:02:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050106223311.92793.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050106223311.92793.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > > > > The fact that I dealt with German as a language learned as an > > > > adolescent, not as a child, may be warping my view here. But > > > > it seems to me that everything about grammar they taught us > > > > in English there was some German equivalent, and then there > > > > was about three times that much *additional* stuff that > > > > applied only to German, not to English. > > > > > > But that doesn't count the sh*tloads that you never had to > > > learn as a native speaker of English because native speakers > > > don't get it wrong, but that L2 learners have to learn by > > > study. For example: > > > > > > Give the big blue book to Jane. -- fine > > > Give it to Jane. -- fine > > > Give Jane the big blue book. -- fine > > > Give Jane it. -- WRONG!!! Just a comment that this strikes me as being in David's "there was some German equivalent" category - "gib mir das Buch" ok, "gib mir es" not. Similarly, donne Philip le livre -> donne-le-lui. Which of Je le lui donne. Je donne le lui. Je lui le donne. Je donne lui le. is correct? Also for the record I've checked with a linguist of my acquaintance who suspects (again based on mostly anecdotal info from non-native speakers) that English is relatively easy to learn. I'm still interested in seeing a study disproving/confirming that. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 6 16:50:00 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:50:00 -0700 Subject: $95 In-Reply-To: <477C70FE.08E62D47.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c4f452$d1b14d90$667ba8c0@Dad133> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ok, the total is down to $95 with 82 stickers left. Any more takers? > Come on, you know you all want some. They will be white with black > wording on a 3 3/4" x 15" sticker. The quote will be: > > "Everyone generalizes from one example. Atleast I do." _Issola_ > chp.14 pg.211 > > Just a few more and I will put the order in. Just like 7 more. That's > all! -C I'll buy 2. From bonham15 at cox.net Thu Jan 6 22:18:07 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:18:07 -0600 Subject: $95 References: <15c.47490633.2f0efdc7@aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c4f480$a84fa680$6501a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> i'll chip in 10 bucks, whatever that will get me. andy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 2:47 PM Subject: Re: $95 > In a message dated 01/06/2005 3:44:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, > MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >>Ok, the total is down to $95 with 82 stickers left. Any more takers? Come > on, >you know you all want some. >>They will be white with black wording on a 3 3/4" x 15" sticker. The quote > will be: > >>"Everyone generalizes from one example. Atleast I do." _Issola_ chp.14 >>pg.211 > >>Just a few more and I will put the order in. Just like 7 more. That's all! >> >>-C > Come on and pony up ya cheap bastages!!! Support the cause!!! > > John D. Barbato, OD > From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 07:41:46 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 09:41:46 -0600 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <15a.4703ec20.2f0571b2@aol.com> References: <15a.4703ec20.2f0571b2@aol.com> Message-ID: <41DEADBA.7050605@comcast.net> Late here with my $.02. It would have been one of the earlier Taltos novels. I have no idea when; it seems like forever ago. I'm sure it was the cover art that made me pick it up and the kick-ass writing that made me buy it. Bato001 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, >johne.cook at gmail.com writes: > > >>>My brother bought me _The Chronicles of Amber_...all 10 books in one! >>> >>> >-Zelazny (?sp) The book is huge! I am reaaly quite enjoying it. _Nine Princes in >Amber_ starts off very confusing and you wonder how NYC is fantasy, but by the >4th or 5th chapter... > > >>-C ^..^ >> >> > > > >>I have that book - it's a monster, and yet it moves very fast. I >> >> >wouldn't call it my favorite Zelazny, but it's a fun read and played >like the sort of good, episodic fiction that we don't see as much >anymore. >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > johne cook > wisconsin, usa > > >>johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com >> >> > http://www.phywriter.com >Absolutely some my favorite books. > >Regarding when I discovered Steve's books: > >I discovered Steve's books back in the late eighty's while in college. My >favorite is the Phoenix Guards. I discovered the mailing list about the same time >that it started, May or June a couple of years ago. I had e-mailed Steve with >a question or something and he told me about the mailing list when he >replied. > >John D. Barbato, OD > > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Jan 7 09:48:51 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 12:48:51 -0500 Subject: update Message-ID: <4C99DDD1.72B7151E.00184D6D@aol.com> Nothing big, the order is almost in. Just getting a few kinks out. Once the order goes through, they'll send me a confirmation and it will take 7-10 days from there. I'll let you all know when to send the money. There are 11 stickers left if anyone wants them. No pushing to buy any this time, but that's all that are left. Thank you all so much for contributing. Now we can have a piece of Dragaera when we drive :o) -C From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Fri Jan 7 14:47:06 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:48:06 +0101 Subject: $95 In-Reply-To: <477C70FE.08E62D47.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <477C70FE.08E62D47.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050107224744.GA86623@weller-fahy.com> * MedCat7 at aol.com [2005-01-06 21:10 +0100]: > Just a few more and I will put the order in. Just like 7 more. That's > all! I'll buy 5, let me know where/when to send the money. Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From feetalsjeez at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 15:03:44 2005 From: feetalsjeez at yahoo.com (Tim Owen) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:03:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: update In-Reply-To: <4C99DDD1.72B7151E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050107230344.87784.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com> I'd like one too! Let me know how much, when, where, etc. Thank you so very much! ~T MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: Nothing big, the order is almost in. Just getting a few kinks out. Once the order goes through, they'll send me a confirmation and it will take 7-10 days from there. I'll let you all know when to send the money. There are 11 stickers left if anyone wants them. No pushing to buy any this time, but that's all that are left. Thank you all so much for contributing. Now we can have a piece of Dragaera when we drive :o) -C --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From dustysayers at earthlink.net Fri Jan 7 17:18:51 2005 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 20:18:51 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <41DEADBA.7050605@comcast.net> References: <15a.4703ec20.2f0571b2@aol.com> <41DEADBA.7050605@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41DF34FB.2090105@earthlink.net> A friend of mine's little brother bought Phoenix at random in the book store (about the time it was published, I presume) because he thought the cover looked cool. My friend read it and lent it to me, then he bought the four books published earlier and we both enjoyed them a lot. Shortly after that, The Phoenix Guards came out, and I've followed the series ever since (although it took me a long time to pick up Brokedown Palace--at first I didn't quite get that it was in Dragaera, and then it was hard to locate for a long time afterwards. Really, what got me back into reading Brust after several years away from him was running across a copy of Brokedown Palace unexpectedly in the store, reading the introduciton, and saying 'this sounds a lot like Khaavren in the Phoenix Guards,' and which I then had to re-read to check. After that I started re-reading them all fairly often because they reward re-reading so well). Anyway, cool cover art paid off once again. Dusty Mia McDavid wrote: > Late here with my $.02. It would have been one of the earlier Taltos > novels. I have no idea when; it seems like forever ago. I'm sure it > was the cover art that made me pick it up and the kick-ass writing > that made me buy it. > Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 12/29/2004 10:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> johne.cook at gmail.com writes: >> >> >>>> My brother bought me _The Chronicles of Amber_...all 10 books in >>>> one! >>> >> -Zelazny (?sp) The book is huge! I am reaaly quite enjoying it. _Nine >> Princes in Amber_ starts off very confusing and you wonder how NYC is >> fantasy, but by the 4th or 5th chapter... >> >> >>> -C ^..^ >>> >> >> >> >> >>> I have that book - it's a monster, and yet it moves very fast. I >>> >> >> wouldn't call it my favorite Zelazny, but it's a fun read and played >> like the sort of good, episodic fiction that we don't see as much >> anymore. >> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >> . . . . >> johne cook >> wisconsin, usa >> >> >>> johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com >>> >> >> http://www.phywriter.com >> Absolutely some my favorite books. >> Regarding when I discovered Steve's books: >> >> I discovered Steve's books back in the late eighty's while in >> college. My favorite is the Phoenix Guards. I discovered the mailing >> list about the same time that it started, May or June a couple of >> years ago. I had e-mailed Steve with a question or something and he >> told me about the mailing list when he replied. >> John D. Barbato, OD >> >> >> > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers 'Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father.' --Edmund Burke From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 18:18:35 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <41DF34FB.2090105@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050108021835.65046.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> --- J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > 'Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. > It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and > arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All > democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; > tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. > Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our > groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is > our father.' > --Edmund Burke I liked this quote so much that I grabbed it and put into the sigs file on my PDA. Then, as I was adjusting the lines, I noticed that there seemed to be a word missing in the first sentence before "most obscure". Should it be "the"? "that"? So I Googled for "democracy of the dead" and here is the first hit, from http://www.chesterton.org/qmeister2/tradition.htm : Q. Okay, I've heard this line quoted all the time: "Tradition is the democracy of the dead. It means giving a vote to the most obscure of all classes: our ancestors." It's a great line. Where does it come from? - Jerry --------------------------------------------------- A. It comes from Chesterton's book, Orthodoxy, Chapter 4, "The Ethics of Elfland." And the line is usually quoted backwards, as you have quoted it. It actually reads: "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead." Chesterton goes on to say: "Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father." - The "Quotemeister" http://www.chesterton.org/qmeister2/tradition.htm Now, isn't that interesting? Here's a quote just the way you have it, down to the apparently missing word, and attributed to GK Chesterton with a precise citation. So I went to Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/), downloaded a zipfile of Chesterton's _Orthodoxy_ (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/130), and scanned for the same phrase. Sure enough, there's the quote, in the fourth paragraph of Chapter IV: "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead...." So there is a missing word, it is "the", you and the Chesterton Society's Quotemeister both have the same mistake (and I am going to copy this letter to them), and somewhere in the line of descent from text to you the attribution got switched from Chesterton to Burke. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From dustysayers at earthlink.net Sat Jan 8 09:36:02 2005 From: dustysayers at earthlink.net (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:36:02 -0500 Subject: just for fun In-Reply-To: <20050108021835.65046.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050108021835.65046.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E01A02.2030703@earthlink.net> Thank you for the correction; it was a quote I had often heard in various forms for years, and finally looked up through Google, but apparently made a mistake in it.... thank you for finding my error--I do not want to disseminate any more false information than I have to. I am most curious about how the attribution got switched to Burke--perhaps people felt it was the sort of thing he might say. All the best, Dusty Mark A. Mandel wrote: >--- J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > > > >>'Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. >>It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and >>arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All >>democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; >>tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. >>Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our >>groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is >>our father.' >> --Edmund Burke >> >> > >I liked this quote so much that I grabbed it and put into the sigs file on my >PDA. Then, as I was adjusting the lines, I noticed that there seemed to be a >word missing in the first sentence before "most obscure". Should it be "the"? >"that"? > >So I Googled for "democracy of the dead" and here is the first hit, from >http://www.chesterton.org/qmeister2/tradition.htm : > > Q. >Okay, I've heard this line quoted all the time: "Tradition is the democracy of >the dead. It means giving a vote to the most obscure of all classes: our >ancestors." It's a great line. Where does it come from? >- Jerry > > >--------------------------------------------------- > >A. >It comes from Chesterton's book, Orthodoxy, Chapter 4, "The Ethics of Elfland." >And the line is usually quoted backwards, as you have quoted it. It actually >reads: "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our >ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead." Chesterton goes on to say: >"Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who >merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being >disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being >disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good >man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good >man's opinion, even if he is our father." >- The "Quotemeister" > >http://www.chesterton.org/qmeister2/tradition.htm > >Now, isn't that interesting? Here's a quote just the way you have it, down to >the apparently missing word, and attributed to GK Chesterton with a precise >citation. So I went to Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/), >downloaded a zipfile of Chesterton's _Orthodoxy_ >(http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/130), and scanned for the same phrase. Sure >enough, there's the quote, in the fourth paragraph of Chapter IV: > >"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, >our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead...." > >So there is a missing word, it is "the", you and the Chesterton Society's >Quotemeister both have the same mistake (and I am going to copy this letter to >them), and somewhere in the line of descent from text to you the attribution >got switched from Chesterton to Burke. > >-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? >http://my.yahoo.com > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Give thy thoughts no tongue, Nor any unproportioned thought his act.' --William Shakespeare, Hamlet From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 8 23:15:00 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:15:00 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <12c.54d499db.2f1233f4@aol.com> Rion Bergquist wrote on Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:00:17 -0700 >I would appreciate it if you folks could dig through your respective gray >matter and give me quotes (with sources) that describe each House's patron >animal and the colors that each house is generally seen wearing >i.e. Dragons wear Blackand Silver and have, well a Dragon as their patron >animal. >The sooner we have these descriptions the sooner we'll have art together for >Steve to approve. After that we hope to have a Merch section on the >Dragaera site that will have shirts, mugs, and various other print on demand >Dragaera fan gear. Hi, Yeah! Cool! dragon "had a sudden, clear vision of a monstrous head--narrow, triangular, and reptilian. He had never seen it before, but his stay in Faerie had taught him to recognize it. Three small tentacles, which Miklos knew to be sense organs, descended from its chin, there would be larger ones around its neck, Miklos didn't remain to see them." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 "The dragon stopped suddenly, and the Prince could see its neck tentacles becoming hard and rigid. He chuckled to himself at the vaguely sexual impression it gave. Then he realized that the dragon was standing in almost the same place he had vacated a few minutes before, and he was very pleased he had moved. But what had it found? The athyra. Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 45 "It is one thing to know that a dragon's head is taller than you are, another to see one close up. The dragon wasn't looking at him but at the dzur; and all of its tentacles were fully erect. This time Miklos found nothing amusing about it. He stared mesmerized, until he heard a louder snarl than he'd hear yet, and a thin black streak launched itself across his line of sight and into the dragon's face." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 "He was fifty feet away when Vilmos leapt onto the dragon's back, crying, 'I said I'd strange you, and by the Demon Goddess I will!'" "Even his massive hands couldn't come close to actually fitting around the dragon's throat, but he took one of its great tentacles and twisted and pulled it." ... "Teeth, however, are not the dragon's only weapon. A claw that was as big as Vilmos himself swung out too quickly to be seen," ... "Miklos saw the dragon's tail whipping around." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 49 "The dragon...turned toward us, then, its mouth open, showing teeth the size of Blackwand, and began to move in our direction." Issola, Chapter 15, paperback, page 235 The size of Blackwand: "It was small for a longsword" The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 6, page 60 "It is really hard to conceive of just how big a dragon is, I can tell you that that it could eat me, perhaps without the need for a second bite. I can mention that it has tentaclelike things all around its head, each of which is longer than I am tall and as big around as my thigh. I could let you know that, at the shoulders, it was eighteen feet high and much, much longer than that. But, until you've seen one up close, you just can't really image it." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 12, page 126 lyorn words used in describing a normal dog "the sleek build of a lyorn" The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 2, page 228 dzur "He heard a snarl off to his left and stepped back, alert. He found himself staring into the yellow eyes of a dzur, about thirty feet away from him. Five hundred pounds of black death." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 Issola "The issola is a beautiful white bird. I'd seen several during my recent travels. One usually saw them standing, graceful and lovely in the early morning or late evening, in swamps or the shallow banks of rivers. They stand as if their only reason for being were to look lovely and graceful. And, then the issola would be holding a fish in its beak, and you'd never see it strike. And then the fish would be gone in a single swallow, and the issola would be standing on one leg, looking lovely and graceful." Issola, Chapter 1, paperback, page 14 jhereg "It was of average size, if female, a bit large, if male. If my spell had worked, it would be female. Its wing span was about the distance from my shoulder to my wrist, and it was a bit less than that from its snakelike head to the tip of its tail. The forked tongue flicked out" The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 6 "The jhereg walked up to me. Its claws were long and sharp, but more useful for running then for fighting. After a full meal, a jhereg will often find that it weighs too much to become airborne and so must run to escape its enemies." ... "It was odd to see intelligence in small, beady snake eyes, and to have nearly human-level communication with an animal whose brain was no larger than the first joint of my finger." ... "And she turned and spread her batlike wings. She had to run a step two before taking off." The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 7 "this ugly little reptile was lying amid broken shell fragments. Its wings were tightly drawn up against it, and its eyes were closed. The wings were no larger than my thumb." ... "The bite was too small, and the poison still too weak for it to affect me, but he was certainly in possession of his fangs." The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 11 "allowed me to scratch its snakelike chin." The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 1, page 217 Colors of the jhereg and also a guess of color change in spring. "The female was larger and becoming dark brown as summer gave way to autumn; the male was smaller and lighter in color. Savn guessed that in the spring the male would be green or grey, while the female would simply turn a lighter brown." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 1, page 9 "each wing when folded forms a perfect triangle" ... "Yet seen from the front, it looked like there was a snake's head bobbing up and down between the walls of two houses that had been built too close together." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 9, page 104 iorich "Her eyes were as soft as an iorich's wing," The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 7, page 58 orca "Off to the left, the side I was on, a pair of orca surfaced for a moment, then dived. I kept watching, and it happened again, somewhat closer, then yet a third time. They were sleek and graceful; proud. They were very beautiful." ... "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. Did you notice the white splotches on their backs? When they're young they tend to travel in pairs. Later they'll gather into larger groups.' 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. 'They weren't. They were both females; the males have shorter tails." The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 dream of an orca with the face of a dragon??? "I woke up in the middle of the night with the half memory of a dream in which I was flying over the ocean, into a nasty wind, and my wings were very tired. I kept wanting to rest, and every time I did an orca with the face of a dragon would rise out of water and snap at me." The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 4, page 227 teckla "A little way off, a teckla sat up on its back legs, motionless except for a quick, furtive movements of its gray, whiskered head." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 athyra "On a branch of the oak nearest him sat an athyra with its thick brown plumage and hooked beak. Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 "A large brown bird that I recognized as an athyra studied us with one eye." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 11, page 113 Bye. Linda G. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 02:00:50 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 05:00:50 -0500 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <12c.54d499db.2f1233f4@aol.com> References: <12c.54d499db.2f1233f4@aol.com> Message-ID: Lyorn is red, and Phoenix is either red and gold or just gold...I gotta go check this, but I believe Teckla is green, and I know in Orca when Vlad's pretending to be a Choretha he mentions their colors. Dzur...are black, no? Jhereg is predominantly gray, I think there's also mention of gray/black attire. Issola are green/white, I believe. On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 02:15:00 EST, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Rion Bergquist wrote on Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:00:17 -0700 > > >I would appreciate it if you folks could dig through your respective gray > >matter and give me quotes (with sources) that describe each House's patron > >animal and the colors that each house is generally seen wearing > >i.e. Dragons wear Blackand Silver and have, well a Dragon as their patron > >animal. > > >The sooner we have these descriptions the sooner we'll have art together for > >Steve to approve. After that we hope to have a Merch section on the > >Dragaera site that will have shirts, mugs, and various other print on demand > >Dragaera fan gear. > > Hi, > > Yeah! > > Cool! > > dragon > > "had a sudden, clear vision of a monstrous head--narrow, triangular, > and reptilian. He had never seen it before, but his stay in Faerie > had taught him to recognize it. Three small tentacles, which Miklos > knew to be sense organs, descended from its chin, there would be > larger ones around its neck, Miklos didn't remain to see them." > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 > > "The dragon stopped suddenly, and the Prince could see its neck > tentacles becoming hard and rigid. He chuckled to himself at the > vaguely sexual impression it gave. Then he realized that the > dragon was standing in almost the same place he had vacated a > few minutes before, and he was very pleased he had moved. But what > had it found? The athyra. > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 45 > > "It is one thing to know that a dragon's head is taller than you > are, another to see one close up. The dragon wasn't looking at > him but at the dzur; and all of its tentacles were fully erect. > This time Miklos found nothing amusing about it. He stared > mesmerized, until he heard a louder snarl than he'd hear yet, and > a thin black streak launched itself across his line of sight and > into the dragon's face." > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 > > "He was fifty feet away when Vilmos leapt onto the dragon's > back, crying, 'I said I'd strange you, and by the Demon Goddess > I will!'" > > "Even his massive hands couldn't come close to actually > fitting around the dragon's throat, but he took one of its > great tentacles and twisted and pulled it." > ... > "Teeth, however, are not the dragon's only weapon. A claw that > was as big as Vilmos himself swung out too quickly to be seen," > ... > "Miklos saw the dragon's tail whipping around." > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 49 > > "The dragon...turned toward us, then, its mouth open, showing teeth > the size of Blackwand, and began to move in our direction." > > Issola, Chapter 15, paperback, page 235 > > The size of Blackwand: "It was small for a longsword" > The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 6, page 60 > > "It is really hard to conceive of just how big a dragon is, I can > tell you that that it could eat me, perhaps without the need for a > second bite. I can mention that it has tentaclelike things all > around its head, each of which is longer than I am tall and as big > around as my thigh. I could let you know that, at the shoulders, it > was eighteen feet high and much, much longer than that. But, until > you've seen one up close, you just can't really image it." > > The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 12, page 126 > > lyorn > > words used in describing a normal dog > > "the sleek build of a lyorn" > > The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 2, page 228 > > dzur > > "He heard a snarl off to his left and stepped back, alert. He > found himself staring into the yellow eyes of a dzur, about thirty > feet away from him. Five hundred pounds of black death." > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 > > Issola > > "The issola is a beautiful white bird. I'd seen several during my > recent travels. One usually saw them standing, graceful and lovely > in the early morning or late evening, in swamps or the shallow > banks of rivers. They stand as if their only reason for being > were to look lovely and graceful. And, then the issola would be > holding a fish in its beak, and you'd never see it strike. And > then the fish would be gone in a single swallow, and the issola > would be standing on one leg, looking lovely and graceful." > > Issola, Chapter 1, paperback, page 14 > > jhereg > > "It was of average size, if female, a bit large, if male. If my > spell had worked, it would be female. Its wing span was about the > distance from my shoulder to my wrist, and it was a bit less than > that from its snakelike head to the tip of its tail. The forked > tongue flicked out" > > The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 6 > > "The jhereg walked up to me. Its claws were long and sharp, but > more useful for running then for fighting. After a full meal, a > jhereg will often find that it weighs too much to become airborne > and so must run to escape its enemies." > ... > "It was odd to see intelligence in small, beady snake eyes, and to > have nearly human-level communication with an animal whose brain > was no larger than the first joint of my finger." > ... > "And she turned and spread her batlike wings. She had to run a step > two before taking off." > > The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 7 > > "this ugly little reptile was lying amid broken shell fragments. Its > wings were tightly drawn up against it, and its eyes were closed. The > wings were no larger than my thumb." > ... > "The bite was too small, and the poison still too weak for it to affect > me, but he was certainly in possession of his fangs." > > The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 11 > > "allowed me to scratch its snakelike chin." > > The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 1, page 217 > > Colors of the jhereg and also a guess of color change in spring. > > "The female was larger and becoming dark brown as summer gave way > to autumn; the male was smaller and lighter in color. Savn > guessed that in the spring the male would be green or grey, > while the female would simply turn a lighter brown." > > The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 1, page 9 > > "each wing when folded forms a perfect triangle" > ... > "Yet seen from the front, it looked like there was a snake's head > bobbing up and down between the walls of two houses that had been > built too close together." > > The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 9, page 104 > > iorich > > "Her eyes were as soft as an iorich's wing," > > The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 7, page 58 > > orca > > "Off to the left, the side I was on, a pair of orca surfaced for > a moment, then dived. I kept watching, and it happened again, > somewhat closer, then yet a third time. They were sleek and > graceful; proud. They were very beautiful." > ... > "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. Did you notice the white > splotches on their backs? When they're young they tend to travel > in pairs. Later they'll gather into larger groups.' > 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. > 'They weren't. They were both females; the males have shorter > tails." > > The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 > > dream of an orca with the face of a dragon??? > > "I woke up in the middle of the night with the half memory of a > dream in which I was flying over the ocean, into a nasty wind, and > my wings were very tired. I kept wanting to rest, and every time I > did an orca with the face of a dragon would rise out of water and > snap at me." > > The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 4, page 227 > > teckla > > "A little way off, a teckla sat up on its back legs, motionless > except for a quick, furtive movements of its gray, whiskered head." > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 > > athyra > > "On a branch of the oak nearest him sat an athyra with its thick > brown plumage and hooked beak. > > Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 > > "A large brown bird that I recognized as an athyra studied us with > one eye." > > The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 11, page 113 > > Bye. > > Linda G. > > From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 10:08:20 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109180820.24468.qmail@web13125.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alma Gaiz wrote: > Lyorn is red, and Phoenix is either red and gold or just gold...I > gotta go check this, but I believe Teckla is green, and I know in Orca > when Vlad's pretending to be a Choretha he mentions their colors. > Dzur...are black, no? Jhereg is predominantly gray, I think there's > also mention of gray/black attire. Issola are green/white, I believe. Here are the House colors that we know of, as summarized on my web site at http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html: Phoenix gold Dragon black & silver Lyorn red & golden-brown (warriors only: skirt) Tiassa pale blue & white Hawk Dzur black & white Issola green & white Tsalmoth red & silver Vallista Jhereg black & grey Iorich Chreotha Yendi [none] Orca pale blue & green Teckla yellow, green, & brown Jhegaala brown & yellow Athyra red & white; (often a hooded robe) The orca is an Earth species, also known as the killer whale. The lyorn has a horn: "Lyorn growls and lowers horn" in the Cycle poem. It is probably a predator: "Everyone is a predator" at the top of Chapter 3 of _Jhereg_. (These quotations and sources are also found on the same page of my web site.) The dzur is apparently something like a panther, possibly black ("Dzur stalks and blends with night" -- Cycle poem). The tiassa is a winged feline, smaller than the dzur: Vlad says that the cat-centaurs he and Morrolan met "from the waist down appeared to be feline, smaller than the dzur, perhaps the size of the tiassa but without wings." (_Taltos_, Chapter 9, page 92 in the 1988 Ace edition.) We also know things, or have ideas, about some of the other creatures, including a really weird description of the tsalmoth from Steve himself by oral tradition. I don't have them handy. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 9 11:31:12 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:31:12 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <68.4cb156d4.2f12e080@aol.com> Hi, Additions to jhereg "He flew over to her and wrapped his talons around her wrist. She scratched under his chin, going with the scales." The Book of Taltos, Yendi, Chapter 7, page 233 "She held out her arm, and Loiosh flew to her, allowed his chin to be scratched, and then, just to show his high regard for her, he bent his head to allow her to scratch the scales that concealed his ears: a special mark of honor, because jhereg are very protective of their ears. I don't know if Sethra appreciated the honor." Issola, Chapter 2, paperback, page 31 jhereg have only two legs. You will not find this in the text, but Steven Brust wrote on Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:48:14 -0800 >Oh, and the other thing is that the jhereg does not have four legs. That's >the cover artist's rendition. I think it's a great cover, but that doesn't >mean it's accurate. :-) Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 9 14:12:11 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:12:11 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <74.4ab8d911.2f13063b@aol.com> Hi everyone and Mark and Rion, Mark A. Mandel wrote on Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) >The orca is an Earth species, also known as the killer whale. Mark, I do not think we know this. We do not know exactly what the orcas Vlad sees in Phoenix look like. Can't you see the first Easterners looking at something in the water and saying hey they sort of look like orca and act like them too? They did not see any icebergs though. orca "Off to the left, the side I was on, a pair of orca surfaced for a moment, then dived. I kept watching, and it happened again, somewhat closer, then yet a third time. They were sleek and graceful; proud. They were very beautiful." ... "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. Did you notice the white splotches on their backs? When they're young they tend to travel in pairs. Later they'll gather into larger groups.' 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. 'They weren't. They were both females; the males have shorter tails." The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 Mark A. Mandel wrote on Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) >The dzur is apparently something like a panther, possibly black ("Dzur stalks >and blends with night" -- Cycle poem). ... Mark, I agree with the intro to Dzurlord that the dzur is more like a tiger. Definitely black with yellow eyes. dzur "He heard a snarl off to his left and stepped back, alert. He found himself staring into the yellow eyes of a dzur, about thirty feet away from him. Five hundred pounds of black death." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 Internet says Siberian tigers are the largest living cats in the our world. They weigh between 400 to 650 pounds. The panther weights around 130 pounds. On tiassa "They passed more statuary. When they reached the tiassa, which was poised upon its hind legs, wings outspread," The Paths of the Dead, Chapter the Twenty-Ninth, paperback, page 318 Mark A. Mandel wrote on Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) >We also know things, or have ideas, about some of the other creatures, >including a really weird description of the tsalmoth from Steve himself by oral >tradition. I don't have them handy. lazarus wrote on Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:59:56 -0700 >On the other hand, I definitely remember talking to Steve about these >critters at a con in Mississippi, and he described the Tsalmoth as "a >large land oyster" who would spend months or years climbing a tree, >then climbing out on a limb, then waiting to drop on a large prey >animal moving beneath it. If it missed, it had to start up the tree >again..... SKZB on Dzurlord, the Crossroads adventure book: Steven Brust wrote on Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700 on a subject: House Animals At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: > >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html > > >Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, > >for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. > >Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that > >ain't bad. >That introduction was informative. SKZB> Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. Steven Brust wrote on Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:54:25 -0700 At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: >>On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant >>land oyster? SKZB> Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. SKZB> However, I was not being entirely serious. Steven Brust wrote on Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:43:47 -0700 From: "roger n. tospott" wrote on Monday, September 01, 2003 > Steven Brust writes: > At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: > >Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant > >land oyster? > Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. > However, I was not being entirely serious. > > Well, can you give us an estimation on how serious you were? > > SKZB> I'm delighted to be able to give you an answer to this question. SKZB> The answer is no. So, Rion, good luck! Maybe Steven is ready to make some decisions on what some of the animals look like or maybe he isn't. Of course, even though Steven may approve the artwork or the introduction to Dzurlord that does not mean it is canonical and he cannot change it later if he needs to. We can always blame Paarfi. Or we can blame Vlad, Piro, and Captain G'aereth. Or maybe it is all Dolivar's fault. I blame Kieron the Conqueror, blind as he always was. Kieron almost took the orb remember. Rion, here is the whole Cycle, "The Cycle Phoenix sinks into decay Haughty dragon yearns to slay. Lyorn growls and lowers horn Tiassa dreams and plots are born. Hawk looks down from lofty flight Dzur stalks and blends with night. Issola strikes from courtly bow Tsalmoth maintains though none knows how. Vallista rends and then rebuilds Jhereg feeds on others' kills. Quiet iorich won't forget Sly chreotha weaves his net. Yendi coils and strikes unseen Orca circles, hard and lean. Frightened teckla hides in grass Jhegaala shifts as moments pass Athyra rules minds' interplay Phoenix rise from ashes, gray." Yendi Bye. Linda G. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Jan 9 18:03:41 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:03:41 +0000 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <74.4ab8d911.2f13063b@aol.com> Message-ID: Phoenix sinks into decay Haughty dragon yearns to slay. Lyorn growls and lowers horn Tiassa dreams and plots are born. Hawk looks down from lofty flight Dzur stalks and blends with night. Issola strikes from courtly bow Tsalmoth maintains though none knows how. Vallista rends and then rebuilds Jhereg feeds on others' kills. Quiet iorich won't forget Sly chreotha weaves his net. Yendi coils and strikes unseen Orca circles, hard and lean. Frightened teckla hides in grass Jhegaala shifts as moments pass Athyra rules minds' interplay Phoenix rise from ashes, gray." Based on what we know, which is that sometimes, animals in the cycle are similar to animals on dragaera, we can postulate (but only postulate, never prove or even indicate) what earth animals the dragaeran animals are closest to: Phoenix--akin to the mythical bird. Dragon--akin to the mythical serpent (flying breed, see _Issola_, but with tentacles on its head or neck) Lyorn--perhaps some sort of one-horned mountain goat, or maybe even a hippo-like creature. But I think I recall some conversation which said that it was like a mountain goat or some similar creature. Tiassa--a winged cat. Domestic cat would be unlikely, maybe an ocelot or a lynx. Hawk--same or similar to the bird we know, but you never know when Steve is gonna be a prick and call an Elephant a hawk and call it a weird translational phenomenon. Dzur--a cross between a mountain lion and a tiger. Probably more tiger, due to size. Issola--much like a heron, not so silly as a flamingo. Tsalmoth--isn't this one the tree-alligator? Or is that not canon? Vallista--I would guess this is something akin to a beaver, creating dams >from trees that it has chewed down. Jhereg--a winged lizard scavenging creature, like nothing on earth. Iorich--Owl? Owls are sometimes known for their near or completely silent flight, also for their wisdom. Elephants are well-known for their memories, but not too many people would classify them as 'quiet'. It may be a whale or a dolphin, who have shown fairly advanced mental faculties, but as far as I know, there is no indication that any animal other than the Orca is aquatic. No real solid clues exist for the Iorich. The house that corresponds to the Iorich is concerned with Judicial matters, suggesting, once again, the owl, whose "wisdom" would definitely aid him in deciding between difficult positions. The only problem with the owl, as far as I know, is that I think it may be taken already by the Athyra. See below. Chreotha-- Another completely alien creature to earth, or, if not alien, then at least possessing an alien ability. Only arachnids and certain types of worm (silk worm, caterpillars, etc) are known to spin webs, but neither is an animal--which seems to be the underlying assumption that we are using to think up a related animal. However, I suppose, with that in mind, that a large, really large spider is not entirely out of the question here. A mammoth silk-worm would be an alien creature, I think. Yendi--a serpent with psychic abilities. Orca--killer whales, or maybe spotted dolphins. Teckla--Rat, I think. Or maybe a ferret or other rodentia. Jhegaala--seems to be a chameleon, or a creature with a chameleonic (sweet, new word) ability. I would assume that Steve didn't include microbes in his cycle, which have a very short lifespan. Athyra--I seem to recall some conversation about an Athyra being really close to an owl. Don't really know what else it could be. Not too many smart, philosophical birds out there. But then, I can't remember when we decided it was a bird, either. So it could be a fox or even a pig, or some similarily intelligent creature--but granted pigs and academia don't gel as much as owls and academia do, and we know that Dragaerans of the house of the Athyra are almost all academics. On a side note, (please label replies to this portion something new) my girlfriend and I were talking, and she mentioned that her younger brother was now applying to university. I asked, and I quote: Which universities is he apply...wait. Which universities are he applying....wait...GAH What universities is...are...*%@.... So what's the correct way of saying this? What universities am I applying to? What universities are you applying to? What universities are we applying to? What universities are they appyling to? What universities am he applying to???? heheheheeh I hate english. Jon From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Jan 10 01:07:46 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:07:46 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: References: <20050106223311.92793.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:02:06 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >> > Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> > > --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> > > >> > > > The fact that I dealt with German as a language learned as an >> > > > adolescent, not as a child, may be warping my view here. But >> > > > it seems to me that everything about grammar they taught us >> > > > in English there was some German equivalent, and then there >> > > > was about three times that much *additional* stuff that >> > > > applied only to German, not to English. >> > > >> > > But that doesn't count the sh*tloads that you never had to >> > > learn as a native speaker of English because native speakers >> > > don't get it wrong, but that L2 learners have to learn by >> > > study. For example: >> > > >> > > Give the big blue book to Jane. -- fine >> > > Give it to Jane. -- fine >> > > Give Jane the big blue book. -- fine >> > > Give Jane it. -- WRONG!!! > >Just a comment that this strikes me as being in David's "there was some >German equivalent" category - "gib mir das Buch" ok, "gib mir es" not. >Similarly, donne Philip le livre -> donne-le-lui. Which of > Je le lui donne. > Je donne le lui. > Je lui le donne. > Je donne lui le. >is correct? > > >Also for the record I've checked with a linguist of my acquaintance who >suspects (again based on mostly anecdotal info from non-native speakers) >that English is relatively easy to learn. I'm still interested in seeing >a study disproving/confirming that. Is it possible that *basic English* is easy to learn, but fluency is hard? To go back a few examples, while "Give Jane it" is technically wrong, few native speakers would have trouble understanding the meaning, particular in context. I found the gendered nouns in French and German to be a nightmare. Why is a table feminine (or is it masculine), and why so many bloody articles? From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 05:30:07 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:30:07 -0500 Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <1C645627.575195BC.00184D6D@aol.com> Damn I have to find _Broke Down Palace_! -C In a message dated 1/9/2005 2:15:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >Rion Bergquist wrote on Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:00:17 -0700 > >>I would appreciate it if you folks could dig through your respective gray >>matter and give me quotes (with sources) that describe each House's patron >>animal and the colors that each house is generally seen wearing >>i.e. Dragons wear Blackand Silver and have, well a Dragon as their patron >>animal. > >>The sooner we have these descriptions the sooner we'll have art together for >>Steve to approve. ?After that we hope to have a Merch section on the >>Dragaera site that will have shirts, mugs, and various other print on demand >>Dragaera fan gear. > >Hi, > >Yeah! > >Cool! > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >dragon > >"had a sudden, clear vision of a monstrous head--narrow, triangular, >and reptilian. ?He had never seen it before, but his stay in Faerie >had taught him to recognize it. ?Three small tentacles, which Miklos >knew to be sense organs, descended from its chin, there would be >larger ones around its neck, Miklos didn't remain to see them." > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 > > ? "The dragon stopped suddenly, and the Prince could see its neck >tentacles becoming hard and rigid. ?He chuckled to himself at the >vaguely sexual impression it gave. ?Then he realized that the >dragon was standing in almost the same place he had vacated a >few minutes before, and he was very pleased he had moved. ?But what >had it found? ?The athyra. > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 45 > >"It is one thing to know that a dragon's head is taller than you >are, another to see one close up. ?The dragon wasn't looking at >him but at the dzur; and all of its tentacles were fully erect. ? >This time Miklos found nothing amusing about it. ?He stared >mesmerized, until he heard a louder snarl than he'd hear yet, and >a thin black streak launched itself across his line of sight and >into the dragon's face." > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 > > ? "He was fifty feet away when Vilmos leapt onto the dragon's >back, crying, 'I said I'd strange you, and by the Demon Goddess >I will!'" > > ? "Even his massive hands couldn't come close to actually >fitting around the dragon's throat, but he took one of its >great tentacles and twisted and pulled it." >... >"Teeth, however, are not the dragon's only weapon. ?A claw that >was as big as Vilmos himself swung out too quickly to be seen," >... >"Miklos saw the dragon's tail whipping around." > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 49 > >"The dragon...turned toward us, then, its mouth open, showing teeth >the size of Blackwand, and began to move in our direction." > >Issola, Chapter 15, paperback, page 235 > >The size of Blackwand: "It was small for a longsword" >The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 6, page 60 > >"It is really hard to conceive of just how big a dragon is, I can >tell you that that it could eat me, perhaps without the need for a >second bite. ?I can mention that it has tentaclelike things all >around its head, each of which is longer than I am tall and as big >around as my thigh. ?I could let you know that, at the shoulders, it >was eighteen feet high and much, much longer than that. ?But, until >you've seen one up close, you just can't really image it." > >The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 12, page 126 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >lyorn > >words used in describing a normal dog > >"the sleek build of a lyorn" > >The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 2, page 228 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >dzur > > ? "He heard a snarl off to his left and stepped back, alert. ?He >found himself staring into the yellow eyes of a dzur, about thirty >feet away from him. ?Five hundred pounds of black death." > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >Issola > >"The issola is a beautiful white bird. I'd seen several during my >recent travels. ?One usually saw them standing, graceful and lovely >in the early morning or late evening, in swamps or the shallow >banks of rivers. ?They stand as if their only reason for being >were to look lovely and graceful. ?And, then the issola would be >holding a fish in its beak, and you'd never see it strike. ?And >then the fish would be gone in a single swallow, and the issola >would be standing on one leg, looking lovely and graceful." > >Issola, Chapter 1, paperback, page 14 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >jhereg > >"It was of average size, if female, a bit large, if male. ?If my >spell had worked, it would be female. ?Its wing span was about the >distance from my shoulder to my wrist, and it was a bit less than >that from its snakelike head to the tip of its tail. ?The forked >tongue flicked out" > >The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 6 > > ? "The jhereg walked up to me. ?Its claws were long and sharp, but >more useful for running then for fighting. ?After a full meal, a >jhereg will often find that it weighs too much to become airborne >and so must run to escape its enemies." >... >"It was odd to see intelligence in small, beady snake eyes, and to >have nearly human-level communication with an animal whose brain >was no larger than the first joint of my finger." >... >"And she turned and spread her batlike wings. ?She had to run a step >two before taking off." > >The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 7 > >"this ugly little reptile was lying amid broken shell fragments. ?Its >wings were tightly drawn up against it, and its eyes were closed. The >wings were no larger than my thumb." >... >"The bite was too small, and the poison still too weak for it to affect >me, but he was certainly in possession of his fangs." > >The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 11 > >"allowed me to scratch its snakelike chin." > >The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 1, page 217 > >Colors of the jhereg and also a guess of color change in spring. > >"The female was larger and becoming dark brown as summer gave way >to autumn; the male was smaller and lighter in color. ?Savn >guessed that in the spring the male would be green or grey, >while the female would simply turn a lighter brown." > >The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 1, page 9 > >"each wing when folded forms a perfect triangle" >... >"Yet seen from the front, it looked like there was a snake's head >bobbing up and down between the walls of two houses that had been >built too close together." > >The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 9, page 104 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >iorich > >"Her eyes were as soft as an iorich's wing," > >The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 7, page 58 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >orca > > ? "Off to the left, the side I was on, a pair of orca surfaced for >a moment, then dived. ?I kept watching, and it happened again, >somewhat closer, then yet a third time. ?They were sleek and >graceful; proud. ?They were very beautiful." >... > ? "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. ?Did you notice the white >splotches on their backs? ?When they're young they tend to travel >in pairs. ?Later they'll gather into larger groups.' > ? 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. > ? 'They weren't. ?They were both females; the males have shorter >tails." > >The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 > >dream of an orca with the face of a dragon??? ? > >"I woke up in the middle of the night with the half memory of a >dream in which I was flying over the ocean, into a nasty wind, and >my wings were very tired. ?I kept wanting to rest, and every time I >did an orca with the face of a dragon would rise out of water and >snap at me." > >The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 4, page 227 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >teckla > >"A little way off, a teckla sat up on its back legs, motionless >except for a quick, furtive movements of its gray, whiskered head." > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >athyra > > ? "On a branch of the oak nearest him sat an athyra with its thick >brown plumage and hooked beak. > >Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 > >"A large brown bird that I recognized as an athyra studied us with >one eye." > >The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 11, page 113 > > > >Bye. > >Linda G. > From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jan 10 07:08:24 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: lazarus writ: > ...and why so many bloody articles? You could always try Russian, which has none. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 10:19:43 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:19:43 -0500 Subject: sticker update Message-ID: <24306957.52B2E12C.00184D6D@aol.com> The order is in for the stickers. The only thing I am waiting for is to see what the sticker looks like. I tried to buy only 100stickers, but they would cost $3 each sticker and would cost more in the long run, so I dumped that idea. The grand total is $202.22 (not including shipping them to you guys). I have, totaled up, $190. I am fine with that. There are still 25 stickers left so if anyone wants any, they can certainly order some (I don't mind, really). Anyway, the time has come... SEND ME YOUR MONEY! If you don't remember how many you ordered, or if you lost my address (or both), send me an off list e-mail and I will be happy to give you the info. Oh yeah, I prefer a check, but I will take a money order. If you have any questions as to how I am going about this (as in what I am excatly doing with the money), feel free to e-mail me. -Crystal From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 10:24:44 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:24:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: "attraction" in grammar [was Re: House Pictures] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050110182444.42666.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- J C wrote: ... > On a side note, (please label replies to this portion something new) my > girlfriend and I were talking, and she mentioned that her younger > brother > was now applying to university. I asked, and I quote: > > Which universities is he apply...wait. Don't wait! It's right. > Which universities are he > applying....wait...GAH > > What universities is...are...*%@.... > > So what's the correct way of saying this? > > What universities am I applying to? > What universities are you applying to? > What universities are we applying to? > What universities are they appyling to? > What universities am he applying to???? heheheheeh I hate english. "What universities is he applying to?" Because you say "He *is* applying to five universities." The tendency to make a verb agree with the previous noun has been called "attraction", and a lot of people do it, but it's not part of standard English. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 10:28:29 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:28:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <74.4ab8d911.2f13063b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050110182829.88310.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Hi everyone and Mark and Rion, > > Mark A. Mandel wrote on Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) > > >The orca is an Earth species, also known as the killer whale. > > Mark, I do not think we know this. We do not know exactly > what the orcas Vlad sees in Phoenix look like. Can't you see > the first Easterners looking at something in the water and > saying hey they sort of look like orca and act like them too? In fact, we know those orcas are not exactly present-day Earth orcas. See below. > They did not see any icebergs though. ... > ... > "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. Did you notice the white > splotches on their backs? When they're young they tend to travel > in pairs. Later they'll gather into larger groups.' > 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. > 'They weren't. They were both females; the males have shorter > tails." > > The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 ... I looked this up one time. In the orcas we know and love, the males have *longer* tails. So Dragaeran orcas are different. But they might be descended from our orcas, I guess. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 10 10:38:11 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:38:11 -0500 Subject: "attraction" in grammar [was Re: House Pictures] In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:24:44 PST." <20050110182444.42666.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200501101838.j0AIcDXr003716@vice-grips.mit.edu> To which universities is he applying? or (probably more correct) To what universities is he applying? > --- J C wrote: > ... > > > On a side note, (please label replies to this portion something new) my > > girlfriend and I were talking, and she mentioned that her younger > > brother > > was now applying to university. I asked, and I quote: > > > > Which universities is he apply...wait. > > Don't wait! It's right. > > > Which universities are he > > applying....wait...GAH > > > > What universities is...are...*%@.... > > > > So what's the correct way of saying this? > > > > What universities am I applying to? > > What universities are you applying to? > > What universities are we applying to? > > What universities are they appyling to? > > What universities am he applying to???? heheheheeh I hate english. > > "What universities is he applying to?" Because you say "He *is* > applying to five universities." The tendency to make a verb agree > with the previous noun has been called "attraction", and a lot of > people do it, but it's not part of standard English. > > Jerry Friedman > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! > http://my.yahoo.com From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 10 10:40:24 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:28:29 PST." <20050110182829.88310.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200501101840.j0AIePVQ003726@vice-grips.mit.edu> or our inestimable author confused the two, like he did with Zerika's parents. > --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > Hi everyone and Mark and Rion, > > > > Mark A. Mandel wrote on Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) > > > > >The orca is an Earth species, also known as the killer whale. > > > > Mark, I do not think we know this. We do not know exactly > > what the orcas Vlad sees in Phoenix look like. Can't you see > > the first Easterners looking at something in the water and > > saying hey they sort of look like orca and act like them too? > > In fact, we know those orcas are not exactly present-day Earth > orcas. See below. > > > They did not see any icebergs though. > ... > > > ... > > "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. Did you notice the white > > splotches on their backs? When they're young they tend to travel > > in pairs. Later they'll gather into larger groups.' > > 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. > > 'They weren't. They were both females; the males have shorter > > tails." > > > > The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 > ... > > I looked this up one time. In the orcas we know and love, the > males have *longer* tails. So Dragaeran orcas are different. But > they might be descended from our orcas, I guess. > > Jerry Friedman > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 10 10:43:18 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:43:18 -0700 Subject: sticker update In-Reply-To: <24306957.52B2E12C.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <24306957.52B2E12C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:19:43 -0500, wrote: > The order is in for the stickers. The only thing I am waiting for is to > see what the sticker looks like. > I tried to buy only 100stickers, but they would cost $3 each sticker and > would cost more in the long run, so I dumped that idea. The grand total > is $202.22 (not including shipping them to you guys). I have, totaled > up, $190. I am fine with that. There are still 25 stickers left so if > anyone wants any, they can certainly order some (I don't mind, really). > Anyway, the time has come... SEND ME YOUR MONEY! > If you don't remember how many you ordered, or if you lost my address > (or both), send me an off list e-mail and I will be happy to give you > the info. > Oh yeah, I prefer a check, but I will take a money order. If you have > any questions as to how I am going about this (as in what I am excatly > doing with the money), feel free to e-mail me. > > -Crystal > Tell us how to figure out what we owe you! -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jan 10 10:44:29 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:44:29 -0500 Subject: "attraction" in grammar [was Re: House Pictures] In-Reply-To: <20050110182444.42666.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jerry Friedman wrote: > > --- J C wrote: [snip] > > So what's the correct way of saying this? > > > > What universities am I applying to? > > What universities are you applying to? > > What universities are we applying to? > > What universities are they appyling to? > > What universities am he applying to???? heheheheeh I hate english. > > "What universities is he applying to?" Because you say "He *is* > applying to five universities." The tendency to make a verb agree > with the previous noun has been called "attraction", and a lot of > people do it, but it's not part of standard English. > > Jerry Friedman Another way to arrange the question might make it clearer. To which universities is he applying? To which universities am I applying? etc. Which just goes to show you that your English teacher who railed against dangling prepositions was really trying to help you. Casey From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 10 10:54:58 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:54:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <20050110182829.88310.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110182829.88310.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > I looked this up one time. In the orcas we know and love, the > males have *longer* tails. So Dragaeran orcas are different. But > they might be descended from our orcas, I guess. Or someone was giving Vlad a hard time, or the J had been having fun, or ... Nice comparison to reality regardless. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 11:10:52 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:10:52 -0500 Subject: sticker update Message-ID: <63339DB4.0461478E.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/10/2005 1:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:19:43 -0500, wrote: > >> The order is in for the stickers. The only thing I am waiting for is to ? >> see what the sticker looks like. >> I tried to buy only 100stickers, but they would cost $3 each sticker and ? >> would cost more in the long run, so I dumped that idea. The grand total ? >> is $202.22 (not including shipping them to you guys). I have, totaled ? >> up, $190. I am fine with that. There are still 25 stickers left so if ? >> anyone wants any, they can certainly order some (I don't mind, really). >> Anyway, the time has come... SEND ME YOUR MONEY! >> If you don't remember how many you ordered, or if you lost my address ? >> (or both), send me an off list e-mail and I will be happy to give you ? >> the info. >> Oh yeah, I prefer a check, but I will take a money order. If you have ? >> any questions as to how I am going about this (as in what I am excatly ? >> doing with the money), feel free to e-mail me. >> >> -Crystal >> > >Tell us how to figure out what we owe you! > >-- >Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Just multiply how many you want by 2. -C > From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 11:16:32 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:16:32 -0500 Subject: p.s. Message-ID: <6C84A216.4C283148.00184D6D@aol.com> I forgot to mention one thing... When you send the money, please make sure you have an address where I can send the stickers. Remember, I have 23 stickers left if anybody wants some! -C From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jan 10 13:21:27 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:27 -0800 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: References: <20050110182829.88310.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1105392086.20997.103.camel@localhost> I don't remember for sure, but I THINK that was just a screw-up on my part. But then, I've always had trouble telling male from female. One time, when I was in a bar... But skip that. On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 10:54, Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > I looked this up one time. In the orcas we know and love, the > > males have *longer* tails. So Dragaeran orcas are different. But > > they might be descended from our orcas, I guess. > > Or someone was giving Vlad a hard time, or the J had been having fun, > or ... > > Nice comparison to reality regardless. > From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Jan 10 18:30:44 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:30:44 -0600 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <1105392086.20997.103.camel@localhost> References: <20050110182829.88310.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> <1105392086.20997.103.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:27 -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > But then, I've always had trouble telling male from female... It's telling the relative ages of people, specifically women. Such as the time I met this girl and asked her to marry me and it turned out that she was seven years older than me. That was an awkward moment. ...which has been covered by nineteen years of fun in the sack. I probably lucked out. I don't even try guessing people's age any more - their relative maturity is good enough for me. ; ) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 19:48:43 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:48:43 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <15a.47b6b9fa.2f14a69b@aol.com> Hi everyone and Rion, Rion, addition to lyorn: "Her hair was golden--and if I'd meant 'blond' I would have said 'blond.' Her eyes were the same color, rather like a lyorn's, and deeply set." The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, 1st page of Chapter 6 Bye. Linda G. lyorn "Lyorn growls and lowers horn" "Her hair was golden--and if I'd meant 'blond' I would have said 'blond.' Her eyes were the same color, rather like a lyorn's, and deeply set." The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, 1st page of Chapter 6 words used in describing a dog "the sleek build of a lyorn" The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 2, page 228 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 20:18:23 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:18:23 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <129.541ab385.2f14ad8f@aol.com> chreotha "Sly chreotha weaves his net." "and a thin layer of chreotha fur between me and the sky." Issola, Chapter 1, paperback, page 12 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 10 21:39:43 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:39:43 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <1c0.225e52ff.2f14c09f@aol.com> tsalmoth "Tsalmoth maintains though none knows how". "Loiosh woke up with a start, looked around, and jumped down from my shoulder. He bagan working on the remains of my tsalmoth ribs" The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 6, page 50 Which I thought would help, but doesn't. Internet mentions turtles having ribs and snail shells having ribs. jhegaala "Jhegaala shifts as moments pass" "I thought for a minute. Jhegaala eggs? No, she'd made that yesterday." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 10, page 87 From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 11 04:49:00 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 05:49:00 -0700 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c4f7db$ec9b8490$667ba8c0@Dad133> Johne Cook wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:27 -0800, Steve Brust > wrote: >> But then, I've always had trouble telling male from female... > > It's telling the relative ages of people, specifically women. Such as > the time I met this girl and asked her to marry me and it turned out > that she was seven years older than me. That was an awkward moment. My wife is 5 years older than me. But she wasn't a girl when I married her. That makes a difference. From paulw at videoideas.com Tue Jan 11 07:19:50 2005 From: paulw at videoideas.com (paul) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:19:50 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> Hi all. I've been reading The_Viscount_of_Adrilankha books, and it occurs to me that I know very little about Paarfi. It's been a while since reading FYA and TPG, and relevant details have faded. This timeline (http://www.panix.com/~alexx/dragtime.html) doesn't seem to include Paarfi other than noting his involvement in writing the history. When and where does Paarfi exist? There are a few lines, early in The_Paths_of_the_Dead, that led me to believe that Paarfi's work is being published on the world of Dragaera at some unknown time (unlike my assumption about Vlad's stuff, where he's speaking into a black box or interviewing with some fool that somehow brings his adventures onto our world). I thought it interesting that there was the potential that Vlad (who seems to read a good amount) had read some work by Paarfi, although not TPOTD, since he was unaware of Morrolan's early history as a clueless Easterner. Further, Paarfi almost seems to be bragging at one point about the success of TPG and FYA. I haven't read the other two books in this series, but it would explain things away if the stories are all pre-Interregnum, I.E. most of Paarfi's work on Dragaera were lost when the city melted. Any thoughts? Thanx. -paul- From mneme at io.com Tue Jan 11 07:45:39 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:45:39 -0600 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> Message-ID: <16867.62627.129610.527873@fnord.io.com> paul writes: >Hi all. I've been reading The_Viscount_of_Adrilankha books, and it occurs to me that I know very little about Paarfi. The three Paarfi books were published in the reign of Zerika (after the Vlad books), Norathar, and Norathar, respectively. They say so. So with the probable exception of below, Vlad hasn't read any Paarfi books that we have. There's some indication that parts of The Phoenix Guards may have had prior publication, so it's entirely possible that Vlad read them; he certainly read -some- Paarfi. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Tue Jan 11 07:45:39 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:45:39 -0600 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> Message-ID: <16867.62627.129610.527873@fnord.io.com> paul writes: >Hi all. I've been reading The_Viscount_of_Adrilankha books, and it occurs to me that I know very little about Paarfi. The three Paarfi books were published in the reign of Zerika (after the Vlad books), Norathar, and Norathar, respectively. They say so. So with the probable exception of below, Vlad hasn't read any Paarfi books that we have. There's some indication that parts of The Phoenix Guards may have had prior publication, so it's entirely possible that Vlad read them; he certainly read -some- Paarfi. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 07:58:34 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:58:34 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: <6383491F.0AF3661D.00184D6D@aol.com> I can't remember where I found it, but I undertstood it as Paarfi was born after the Inerregnum since says in TFG and FHYA that he has the honor of writng the history. He is probably writing the books during Vlad's time, and Vlad has maybe read other works not yet published during the time of his interviews w/ the black box, etc. -C In a message dated 1/11/2005 10:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, "paul" writes: >Hi all. I've been reading The_Viscount_of_Adrilankha books, and it occurs to me that I know very little about Paarfi. It's been a while since reading FYA and TPG, and relevant details have faded. This timeline (http://www.panix.com/~alexx/dragtime.html) doesn't seem to include Paarfi other than noting his involvement in writing the history. When and where does Paarfi exist? There are a few lines, early in The_Paths_of_the_Dead, that led me to believe that Paarfi's work is being published on the world of Dragaera at some unknown time (unlike my assumption about Vlad's stuff, where he's speaking into a black box or interviewing with some fool that somehow brings his adventures onto our world). I thought it interesting that there was the potential that Vlad (who seems to read a good amount) had read some work by Paarfi, although not TPOTD, since he was unaware of Morrolan's early history as a clueless Easterner. Further, Paarfi almost seems to be bragging at one point about the success of TPG and FYA. I haven't read the other two books in this series, but it would explain things away if the stories are all pre-Interregnum, I.E. most of Paarfi's work on Dragaera were lost when the city melted. Any thoughts? Thanx. > >-paul- > From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 11 08:13:57 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:13:57 -0000 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <1105392086.20997.103.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20050111161402.RJLI8064.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: 10 January 2005 21:21 > To: Philip Hart > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: House Pictures > > I don't remember for sure, but I THINK that was just a > screw-up on my part. > > But then, I've always had trouble telling male from female. > One time, when I was in a bar... > > But skip that. I think we can imply from this that the Orcas are Earth Orcas. Cheers Mark From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jan 11 08:19:20 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:19:20 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <16867.62627.129610.527873@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writ: > There's some indication that parts of The Phoenix Guards may have had > prior publication, so it's entirely possible that Vlad read them; he > certainly read -some- Paarfi. I thought it was Cawti who was reading the Paarfi romance. Did he make a comment about reading them himself? Booksearch isn't helping me. -Casey From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 11 08:28:52 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:28:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <20050111161402.RJLI8064.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> References: <20050111161402.RJLI8064.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Mark Tiller wrote: @> > I don't remember for sure, but I THINK that was just a @> > screw-up on my part. @> > @> > But then, I've always had trouble telling male from female. @> > One time, when I was in a bar... @> > @> > But skip that. @> @> I think we can imply from this that the Orcas are Earth Orcas. Nah, but we could infer it. It'd be sort of surprising if X-thousand years of existance on an alien world had not produced /some/ evolutionary difference in even the terrestrial animals, for large values of X. But we haven't been told what those are (yet), so it's probably safest to stick with the stock versions except when it isn't. Plus, I'd like to join the other folks in mentioning that Jhereg have four limbs (two legs, two wings) rather than six. Because it bears repeating. From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 08:32:56 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:32:56 -0600 Subject: Will Shetterly's story BoingBoinged In-Reply-To: References: <20050111161402.RJLI8064.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/10/man_who_owned_the_bi.html Man Who Owned the Bible: wonderful absurdist copyright parody Talented sf and fantasy writer Will Shetterly (whose one-of-a-kind Dogland is the one of the finest novels I've ever read) has written a short-short story called "The People Who Owned the Bible" and blogged it under a Creative Commons license. It's a corker. "Then Jimmy Joe Jenkins's DNA proved he was the primary descendent of the translators of the King James Version of the Bible. At first, Jimmy was satisfied with ten percent of the price of every KJV sold and 10 percent of every collection plate passed by any church that used the KJV. But when some churches switched to newer translations, Jimmy sicced his lawyers on all translations based on the KJV. That got him a cut of every Bible and every Christian service in English. Some translators claimed their work was based on older versions and should therefore be exempt, but none of them could afford to fight Jimmy in court. So the churches grumbled and paid Jimmy his tithe, except for the Mormons, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, and Unitarian Universalists. Jimmy said their teachings hurt the commercial value of his property and refused to let them use the Bible. All of those groups dissolved, except for the Unitarian Universalists, who didn't notice a change. " . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com / jcook at apostate.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 09:27:05 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:27:05 -0500 Subject: sticker proof Message-ID: <4DE380C8.152F6249.00184D6D@aol.com> This website will let you see what the sticker is going to look like. I like it and think it will come out great. Sometime this afternoon, I will fax the confiramtion. From there it will take 10-15 days of production. http://209.8.23.203/Proofs/CrystalFradette-proof.htm Enjoy! -C From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 09:30:54 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:30:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <20050111161402.RJLI8064.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: <20050111173054.85132.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark Tiller wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > > Sent: 10 January 2005 21:21 > > To: Philip Hart > > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: House Pictures > > > > I don't remember for sure, but I THINK that was just a > > screw-up on my part. In that case, I'll have to check again. *googles* Apparently the easy way to sex orcas is by the dorsal fin, which in males is almost twice as tall as in females and points straight up rather than curving backwards. I found only one site, , that says males have bigger flukes. (if this rassum frassum computer is letting me copy the URL right) says "His pectoral flippers are also much larger and paddle-shaped, and the edges of his fluke have a downward curve." which is not the same thing at all. Possibly you meant to refer to females as shortfins? > > But then, I've always had trouble telling male from female. > > One time, when I was in a bar... > > > > But skip that. Enquiring minds want to know! > I think we can imply from this that the Orcas are Earth Orcas. I suspect you're right (since the word correction has already been made). Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mneme at io.com Tue Jan 11 09:34:57 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:34:57 -0600 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <200501111619.j0BGJgeu014229@zaxxon.io.com> References: <16867.62627.129610.527873@fnord.io.com> <200501111619.j0BGJgeu014229@zaxxon.io.com> Message-ID: <16868.3649.909535.57227@fnord.io.com> Casey Rousseau writes: >Joshua Kronengold writ: >> There's some indication that parts of The Phoenix Guards may have had >> prior publication, so it's entirely possible that Vlad read them; he >> certainly read -some- Paarfi. >I thought it was Cawti who was reading the Paarfi romance. Did he make a >comment about reading them himself? Booksearch isn't helping me. Cawti was reading the Paarfi romances, or at least what was available (given the timing of what we've seen, some other History than that of the Guards, or the serialization thereof, prior to their Compilation in Book Form). But Vlad expressed an Informed Opinion of them, unless I Misremember, and therefore has at least Accquaintance with them. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 11 10:09:57 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:09:57 -0700 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <16868.3649.909535.57227@fnord.io.com> References: <16867.62627.129610.527873@fnord.io.com> <200501111619.j0BGJgeu014229@zaxxon.io.com> <16868.3649.909535.57227@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:34:57 -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Cawti was reading the Paarfi romances, or at least what was available > (given the timing of what we've seen, some other History than that of > the Guards, or the serialization thereof, prior to their Compilation > in Book Form). But Vlad expressed an Informed Opinion of them, unless > I Misremember, and therefore has at least Accquaintance with them. Vlad did not know as much about Morollan's attack on Easterners as we do - from our readings of Paarfi. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From mneme at io.com Tue Jan 11 10:38:04 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:38:04 -0600 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: <16867.62627.129610.527873@fnord.io.com> <200501111619.j0BGJgeu014229@zaxxon.io.com> <16868.3649.909535.57227@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <16868.7436.789585.623862@fnord.io.com> Howard Brazee writes: >Vlad did not know as much about Morollan's attack on Easterners as we do - > from our readings of Paarfi. Er...you're talking about some book that was published, what -- over a hundred years after the Vlad books? You damned well better believe he doesn't. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jan 11 10:43:36 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:43:36 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Cawti was reading the Paarfi romances, or at least what was > available (given the timing of what we've seen, some other > History than that of the Guards, or the serialization thereof, > prior to their Compilation in Book Form). But Vlad expressed > an Informed Opinion of them, unless I Misremember, and > therefore has at least Accquaintance with them. To which, Howard Brazee replied: > Vlad did not know as much about Morollan's attack on Easterners > as we do - from our readings of Paarfi. Alexx (http://www.panix.com/~alexx/dragtime.html) places the following entry in his miscellaneous post-Interregnum/pre-Vlad category. "Early Paarfi". While Paarfi of Roundwood clearly becomes most famous for his "Khaavren" novels hundreds of years after this, there are two mentions of his works (without titles) in "Vlad-period" books (refs?). While it is implied that he only had one earlier "popular" work (Three Broken Strings, FH 13) from University Press, it is possible that some other "popular" work was released by other publishers, possibly including early drafts of what later became the "Khaavren" novels. Perhaps these became sufficiently widely read that Paarfi acquired some upper-class fans who persuaded him to "clean up" his work sufficiently to submit to the Imperial Library. He doesn't submit the notebook that was the source material for TPG until after the "present" time of the Vladiad so far. (20 years or so after the end of Issola). From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Jan 11 17:30:32 2005 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:30:32 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> Message-ID: <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> The Paarfi that Cawti is reading is probably not the same Paarfi that wrote 'Viscount' et. al. The Paarfi we're reading published during Zerikas reign, quite some time after Cawti was reading the other Paarfi. Steve "surrender, there's two of them" Simmons -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Jan 11 10:54:14 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:54:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: <200501111854.j0BIsEtN004519@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Casey Rousseau wrote: > He doesn't submit the notebook that was the source material for TPG until > after the "present" time of the Vladiad so far. (20 years or so after the > end of Issola). I believe it was in Orca, however, that Vlad offers to be cut into pieces (forgive the lack of a direct quote, as I'm quite far from my books at present) in service to Kiera (for bringing honey for Klava, as I recall). Kiera then comments that Vlad's been reading Paarfi. So he must have read some of Paarfi's work somewhere; early drafts of TPG or FHYA? Maybe Vlad has some as-yet undiscussed connections to the publishing industry? Steve still hasn't written the Vlad book wherein Vlad hunts down some long-winded historian, discovering in the process that he enjoys torture (from the author-on-author interview at the end of, uh, one of those two books). Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 11:32:28 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:32:28 EST Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: <8b.1e788eb0.2f1583cc@aol.com> In a message dated 01/11/2005 10:21:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, paulw at videoideas.com writes: Further, Paarfi almost seems to be bragging at one point about the success of TPG and FYA. I haven't read the other two books in this series, but it would explain things away if the stories are all pre-Interregnum, I.E. most of Paarfi's work on Dragaera were lost when the city melted. Any thoughts? Thanx. -paul- Paarfi is absolutely writing after the interregnum, he says so. The reign of Zerika doesn't start until after the orb is recovered, ending the the interregnum, and he writes during Zerika's reign. John D. Barbato, OD From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 11:34:19 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:19 EST Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: <1d8.3468d8ad.2f15843b@aol.com> In a message dated 01/11/2005 11:20:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, casey at the-bat.net writes: Joshua Kronengold writ: > There's some indication that parts of The Phoenix Guards may have had > prior publication, so it's entirely possible that Vlad read them; he > certainly read -some- Paarfi. I thought it was Cawti who was reading the Paarfi romance. Did he make a comment about reading them himself? Booksearch isn't helping me. -Casey yeah, is it in Teckla, I believe she leaves the book lying on the coffee table and it makes him sad(or something)? John D. Barbato, OD From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 11 11:39:35 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:39:35 -0700 Subject: questions about Paarfi References: <8b.1e788eb0.2f1583cc@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:32 PM Subject: Re: questions about Paarfi > In a message dated 01/11/2005 10:21:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > paulw at videoideas.com writes: > Further, Paarfi almost seems to be bragging at one point about the success of > TPG and FYA. I haven't read the other two books in this series, but it would > explain things away if the stories are all pre-Interregnum, I.E. most of > Paarfi's work on Dragaera were lost when the city melted. Any thoughts? Thanx. > > -paul- > Paarfi is absolutely writing after the interregnum, he says so. The reign of > Zerika doesn't start until after the orb is recovered, ending the the > interregnum, and he writes during Zerika's reign. > > John D. Barbato, OD > Doesn't Paarfi mention at one point to the change from the Phoenix to Dragon reign? (IE Zerika to Norathar) Jeff G. From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 11:44:59 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:44:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <74.4ab8d911.2f13063b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050111194459.62076.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Hi everyone and Mark and Rion, > > Mark A. Mandel wrote on Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:08:20 -0800 (PST) > > >The orca is an Earth species, also known as the killer whale. > > Mark, I do not think we know this. We do not know exactly > what the orcas Vlad sees in Phoenix look like. Can't you see > the first Easterners looking at something in the water and > saying hey they sort of look like orca and act like them too? > They did not see any icebergs though. Well, I must admit that you have a good point there. I should amend my comment, then, to: "Orca" is the name of an Earth species, also known as the killer whale -- like "Hawk" and, moving from biology to legend, "Dragon" and "Phoenix". -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 11:46:06 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:46:06 EST Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: In a message dated 01/11/2005 2:44:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Log0n5150 at hotmail.com writes: Doesn't Paarfi mention at one point to the change from the Phoenix to Dragon reign? (IE Zerika to Norathar) Jeff G. Uh, I don't know. Maybe someone can help me out. John D. Barbato, OD From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 11:47:19 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: "attraction" in grammar [was Re: House Pictures] In-Reply-To: <20050110182444.42666.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111194719.62398.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jerry Friedman wrote: > > What universities am I applying to? > > What universities are you applying to? > > What universities are we applying to? > > What universities are they appyling to? > > What universities am he applying to???? heheheheeh I hate english. > > "What universities is he applying to?" Because you say "He *is* > applying to five universities." The tendency to make a verb agree > with the previous noun has been called "attraction", and a lot of > people do it, but it's not part of standard English. Seconded. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 11:50:04 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: "attraction" in grammar [was Re: House Pictures] In-Reply-To: <200501101838.j0AIcDXr003716@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20050111195004.54777.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > To which universities is he applying? > or (probably more correct) > To what universities is he applying? Nothing wrong with those, but nothing wrong with "Which universities is he applying to?" either. The old baloney about "never end a sentence with a preposition" refers to Latin grammar. Latin prepositions always come just before the noun phrase they govern, even in dialogue showing the speech of the uneducated. That's just not so in English. As Churchill is said to have put it, "This is the kind of nonsense up with which I shall not put." -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 11 12:47:56 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > The Paarfi that Cawti is reading is probably not the same Paarfi > that wrote 'Viscount' et. al. The Paarfi we're reading published > during Zerikas reign, quite some time after Cawti was reading > the other Paarfi. I believe in one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the triune aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 11 12:47:53 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:47:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: @> In a message dated 01/11/2005 2:44:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, @> Log0n5150 at hotmail.com writes: @> Doesn't Paarfi mention at one point to the change from the Phoenix to Dragon @> reign? (IE Zerika to Norathar) @> @> Jeff G. @> Uh, I don't know. Maybe someone can help me out. @> @> John D. Barbato, OD He mentions this in the intro to 500 Years After, unless I am mistaken. Phoenix Guards was definitely written during Zerika's reign; I'm fairly certain he refers to her as presently being the monarch. According to booksearch, in fact, TPG was published in the Three Hundred and Ninth year Of the Glorious Reign of The Empress Zerika the Fourth. (Thanks, booksearch!) So clearly some time elapsed between TPG and FHYA, and during that time Zerika stopped being Empress. The question: is Vlad alive in the Three Hundred and Ninth year of Zerika's reign? If not, one can't discount the possibility that Paarfi wrote something before TPG which we, alas, have not had translated for us. If so, it's equally possible that he wrote things between TPG and FHYA which we have likewise not been privileged to receive. From mneme at io.com Tue Jan 11 14:33:06 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:33:06 -0600 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <16868.21538.745219.985098@fnord.io.com> Steve Simmons writes: >The Paarfi that Cawti is reading is probably not the same Paarfi >that wrote 'Viscount' et. al. The Paarfi we're reading published >during Zerikas reign, quite some time after Cawti was reading >the other Paarfi. Yeah, right. Which might explain why Vlad quotes text we've read in the one True Paarfi... -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Tue Jan 11 14:33:06 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:33:06 -0600 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <16868.21538.745219.985098@fnord.io.com> Steve Simmons writes: >The Paarfi that Cawti is reading is probably not the same Paarfi >that wrote 'Viscount' et. al. The Paarfi we're reading published >during Zerikas reign, quite some time after Cawti was reading >the other Paarfi. Yeah, right. Which might explain why Vlad quotes text we've read in the one True Paarfi... -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Jan 11 22:41:56 2005 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:41:56 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050112064156.GA7136@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 12:47:56PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > The Paarfi that Cawti is reading is probably not the same Paarfi > > that wrote 'Viscount' et. al. The Paarfi we're reading published > > during Zerikas reign, quite some time after Cawti was reading > > the other Paarfi. > I believe in one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the triune > aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra. Sethra the Younger or Sethra Lavode? -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 21:07:15 2005 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:07:15 EST Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: Paarfi is probably Sethra Lavode. I can see that. It would suit Brusts sense of the absurd, just like having Kiera and Sethra being the same person does. On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin to fiend justttt a little. In This World there are no enemies, nor are there friends; There are only potential opponents with varying degrees of skill. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jan 11 21:10:11 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:10:11 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <20050112064156.GA7136@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <003801c4f7f1$00134b60$6501a8c0@Paul> <20050112013032.GA6422@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050112064156.GA7136@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <41E4B133.3050803@earthlink.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 12:47:56PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > >>On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: >> >> >>>The Paarfi that Cawti is reading is probably not the same Paarfi >>>that wrote 'Viscount' et. al. The Paarfi we're reading published >>>during Zerikas reign, quite some time after Cawti was reading >>>the other Paarfi. >>> >>> >>I believe in one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the triune >>aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra. >> >> > >Sethra the Younger or Sethra Lavode? > > He means Lavode. You've never read Philip's theory that Sethra is Paarfi? I think if the archives are searchable by author and you search for Sethra, Lavode, Paarfi and Mario, you should get Philip's very clever line of conjecture unmasking Paarfi as a puppet of Sethra's, or maybe a figment of her imagination. Although I don't buy it completely, it's still one of my favorite theories on this list. Hmm. I tried the search, but it seems like it would take too long for a lazy person (i.e. me) to find it that way. If I were home in Massachusetts (I'm in Miami right now), I'd be able to search my personal archives much more effectively and come up with a link for you, so it's up to Philip or someone else to find it in the archives. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Jan 11 21:36:23 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:36:23 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <190.3716a600.2f161157@aol.com> Hi everyone and Rion, Addition to jhereg: >From a painting "the dzur had scored a long scratch in the jhereg's wing. The jhereg's jaws were going for the dzur's neck, but the dzur nearly had its mouth around the long, snakelike neck of the jhereg. The jhereg was of the normal breed, not one of the nonpoisonous giant ones that dwelt above Deathsgate Falls, yet it was one of the largest I had ever seen, and should be able to give a good fight to...I blinked. The scene hadn't changed. The orange-red sky was right, but I realized that I was inside, on a bed, in fact. I was looking at a painting that filled the ceiling above me. Someone's idea of a joke, no doubt, to have me wake up to that sight. Could I view the painting so that it appeared the jhereg was winning? I could and did. It was a nice painting. I took a deep breath and--I was alive!" Yendi, Chapter 7, Ace paperback, page 79 So jhereg: *two legs* two wings, batlike wings each wing when folded forms a perfect triangle scales snakelike head snakelike chin long, snakelike neck scales that concealed his ears intelligence in small, beady snake eyes forked tongue fangs long and sharp claws, talons female was larger and becoming dark brown male was smaller and lighter in color Heh, jhereg must be snakelike...with the addition of two batlike wings and two legs. Bye. Linda G. jhereg "Jhereg feeds on others' kills." "It was of average size, if female, a bit large, if male. If my spell had worked, it would be female. Its wing span was about the distance from my shoulder to my wrist, and it was a bit less than that from its snakelike head to the tip of its tail. The forked tongue flicked out" The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 6 "The jhereg walked up to me. Its claws were long and sharp, but more useful for running then for fighting. After a full meal, a jhereg will often find that it weighs too much to become airborne and so must run to escape its enemies." ... "It was odd to see intelligence in small, beady snake eyes, and to have nearly human-level communication with an animal whose brain was no larger than the first joint of my finger." ... "And she turned and spread her batlike wings. She had to run a step two before taking off." The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 7 "this ugly little reptile was lying amid broken shell fragments. Its wings were tightly drawn up against it, and its eyes were closed. The wings were no larger than my thumb." ... "The bite was too small, and the poison still too weak for it to affect me, but he was certainly in possession of his fangs." The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 11 "allowed me to scratch its snakelike chin." The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 1, page 217 Colors of the jhereg and also a guess of color change in spring. "The female was larger and becoming dark brown as summer gave way to autumn; the male was smaller and lighter in color. Savn guessed that in the spring the male would be green or grey, while the female would simply turn a lighter brown." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 1, page 9 "each wing when folded forms a perfect triangle" ... "Yet seen from the front, it looked like there was a snake's head bobbing up and down between the walls of two houses that had been built too close together." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 9, page 104 "He flew over to her and wrapped his talons around her wrist. She scratched under his chin, going with the scales." The Book of Taltos, Yendi, Chapter 7, page 233 >From a painting "the dzur had scored a long scratch in the jhereg's wing. The jhereg's jaws were going for the dzur's neck, but the dzur nearly had its mouth around the long, snakelike neck of the jhereg. The jhereg was of the normal breed, not one of the nonpoisonous giant ones that dwelt above Deathsgate Falls, yet it was one of the largest I had ever seen, and should be able to give a good fight to...I blinked. The scene hadn't changed. The orange-red sky was right, but I realized that I was inside, on a bed, in fact. I was looking at a painting that filled the ceiling above me. Someone's idea of a joke, no doubt, to have me wake up to that sight. Could I view the painting so that it appeared the jhereg was winning? I could and did. It was a nice painting. I took a deep breath and--I was alive!" Yendi, Chapter 7, Ace paperback, page 79 "She held out her arm, and Loiosh flew to her, allowed his chin to be scratched, and then, just to show his high regard for her, he bent his head to allow her to scratch the scales that concealed his ears: a special mark of honor, because jhereg are very protective of their ears. I don't know if Sethra appreciated the honor." Issola, Chapter 2, paperback, page 31 jhereg have only two legs. You will not find this in the text, but Steven Brust wrote on Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:48:14 -0800 >Oh, and the other thing is that the jhereg does not have four legs. That's >the cover artist's rendition. I think it's a great cover, but that doesn't >mean it's accurate. :-) Hi again from Linda Spoiler space or wild speculation space Did you stop reading yet? It is a very interesting painting of the dzur and the jhereg. I always thought it was a warning to Vlad or maybe D*livar from Tukk* or S*thra of how stupid it would be to get into a fight with S*thra or Ic*flame or Dzur M*untain. Vlad, of course, has to turn it around so the jhereg was winning. But, maybe it is a prediction. What am I talking about? I just mean there is nearly neck biting going on in that painting and S*thra is ... Heh! From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jan 11 23:36:33 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 02:36:33 -0500 Subject: "attraction" in grammar [was Re: House Pictures] OT, pedantry alert. In-Reply-To: <20050111195004.54777.qmail@web13124.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007401c4f879$70e20b50$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > To which universities is he applying? > > or (probably more correct) > > To what universities is he applying? > > Nothing wrong with those, but nothing wrong with "Which > universities is he applying to?" either. The old baloney > about "never end a sentence with a preposition" refers to > Latin grammar. Latin prepositions always come just before the > noun phrase they govern, even in dialogue showing the speech > of the uneducated. That's just not so in English. As > Churchill is said to have put it, "This is the kind of > nonsense up with which I shall not put." When I made the remark about the English teacher and the dangling preposition, I left out the smiley. I was only using that construction to help illustrate the noun verb agreement by moving the prepositional phrase out of the way. So sorry. As for this question of which or what, it seems to me that while they could both be correct, they have subtly different meanings. Also, I would probably only use what if I was expecting that he is only applying to one university, i.e. 'What university is he applying to?' Since this would be unusual, I would more typically use which, simply by default. and would probably still use it even when I did think there would be a single university. This is seat of the pants, so I would love it if you can steer me right on this one. Casey From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jan 11 23:49:34 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 02:49:34 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <41E4B133.3050803@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007b01c4f87b$422f2bb0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Jose Marquez writes: > He means Lavode. You've never read Philip's theory that Sethra is > Paarfi? I think if the archives are searchable by author and [snip] > so it's up to Philip or someone else to find it in the archives. You can read ?all? of Philips posts at: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:aas:8621 The following two in particular may be the ones Jose is referring to. They show up relatively early in my local archives. http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:8621 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:8633 Casey From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 12 00:24:10 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <007b01c4f87b$422f2bb0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> References: <007b01c4f87b$422f2bb0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: > You can read ?all? of Philips posts at: > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:aas:8621 Not something anyone sane would recommend doing, of course. > The following two in particular may be the ones Jose is referring to. They > show up relatively early in my local archives. > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:8621 > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:8633 Hope my snideness in the first post was at least somewhat justified. These posts focussed on the more paranoid aspects of the Paarfi-is-Sethra's-mouthpiece theory. To reiterate briefly and save searching time (if any) - Let us assume Paarfi is accurate, or rather that he is not pulling his histories from a nether region. Paarfi notes in an early volume that he has relied on (letter-based?) interviews with Sethra. Sethra does nothing lightly. Paarfi gives away a lot of state secrets/personal info that should have led to his and his works' suppression if not officially sanctioned or ghost-authored. Paarfi knows a lot of things only Sethra could know (esp. in the Piroiad). Paarfi reports things beneficial on the whole to Sethra's rep, and to that of her friends. Paarfi goes to a lot of trouble however to (from a stranger's viewpoint) mock Morrolan, whereas the text makes much more sense as Sethra ribbing M. As we now see, the histories lead to showing the J as deadly enemies of Dragaera, useful propaganda from Sethra's viewpoint (here assuming the last volume comes out in a continuing state of war, i.e., Vlad hasn't permanently dealt [wrote "dealth" at first cause it's Vlad] with the J in volume 17 of the Vladiad). (plus probably other points I've forgotten...) >From here one can go on to ask, what if Sethra doesn't have a stake in the truth? What's a perhaps more plausible set of events than those in _FHYA_, which relies on some coincidences and screw-ups by S? From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 12 00:29:48 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:29:48 -0500 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008001c4f880$e17a0870$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200> ReVibe68 at aol.com writes > On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > to fiend justttt a little. According to his weblog, http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi, the current working title is Dzur. He first mentioned working it out in his head in October '02. In Nov '03, he said tentatively that it would be Tiassa and pick up after Issola. By March '04, new ideas were flowing, leading to a change in the working title to Dzur. He hasn't leaked any other specifcs publicly. Casey From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 12 04:55:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:55:27 -0700 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <41E4B133.3050803@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000401c4f8a5$fdf7e330$667ba8c0@Dad133> -----Original Message----- From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:10 PM To: Dragaera Subject: Re: questions about Paarfi Steve Simmons wrote: He means Lavode. You've never read Philip's theory that Sethra is Paarfi? I think if the archives are searchable by author and you search for Sethra, Lavode, Paarfi and Mario, you should get Philip's very clever line of conjecture unmasking Paarfi as a puppet of Sethra's, or maybe a figment of her imagination. Although I don't buy it completely, it's still one of my favorite theories on this list. The thing about this theory is that it means that Paarfi's writing style is a game, like Brust's. I like it better if Paarfi was deadly serious with his style. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Jan 12 12:30:28 2005 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:30:28 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <000401c4f8a5$fdf7e330$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <41E4B133.3050803@earthlink.net> <000401c4f8a5$fdf7e330$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050112203028.GA6035@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 05:55:27AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > He means Lavode. You've never read Philip's theory that Sethra is > Paarfi? . . . Two points: First (and not aimed at Howard in particular) -- I was cracking a joke that when Philip said 'one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the triune aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra' one of the three aspects he used was ambiguous. Especially after he was so careful to call out specific incarnations of Paarfis. Jeez. :-) Second, as for the theory - yes I read it, yes I conveniently ignored it while cracking a joke, and finally, no, I don't buy it. I *like* it, but I don't buy it. IMHO, it's unproven. -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 06:21:28 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:21:28 -0500 Subject: funzies Message-ID: <66BDA492.60F9A814.00184D6D@aol.com> This would have made a great sticker... "Foward, Undauntra, lest fear snag our heals." (sorry if it's chopy... I don't have my book with me and I read it a few days ago) Ant guesses where it's from? -C From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Jan 12 06:29:24 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:29:24 -0700 Subject: funzies Message-ID: >From --> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/fandom/dbs/dbsa_athyra.html Says p8: [Vlad quotes from "The Tower and the Tree"] "Then forward, Undauntra, lest fear snag our heels." Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:21 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: funzies This would have made a great sticker... "Foward, Undauntra, lest fear snag our heals." (sorry if it's chopy... I don't have my book with me and I read it a few days ago) Ant guesses where it's from? -C ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Jan 12 07:25:10 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:25:10 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:30:28 EST." <20050112203028.GA6035@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <200501121525.j0CFPBgN018513@vice-grips.mit.edu> This is the first I've heard of the theory that Paarfi is Sethra. I like better the idea that Sethra has been feeding Paarfi an accurate account of the histories which he is relating. It seems very like her to want to have the correct info out there, but in a form that very few people would actually believe to be entirely true. Even the more fantastic parts of Paarfi's tales may have come from Sethra. The right people, those who would understand the truth and know what to do with it, will read it and see it for what it is. The other readers are just an incidental side-audience. In this way, she can disseminate vital information without it being obviously attributed to her. I like this theory. > On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 05:55:27AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > He means Lavode. You've never read Philip's theory that Sethra is > > Paarfi? . . . > > Two points: > > First (and not aimed at Howard in particular) -- I was cracking a joke > that when Philip said 'one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the > triune aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra' > one of the three aspects he used was ambiguous. Especially after he > was so careful to call out specific incarnations of Paarfis. Jeez. :-) > > Second, as for the theory - yes I read it, yes I conveniently ignored > it while cracking a joke, and finally, no, I don't buy it. I *like* > it, but I don't buy it. IMHO, it's unproven. > -- > "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why > smart-asses are over-represented." > Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 08:19:22 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:19:22 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: <6DD94C8F.03E97CCD.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/2005 10:25:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, Joy Jennifer Nicholson writes: > >This is the first I've heard of the theory that Paarfi is Sethra. >I like better the idea that Sethra has been feeding Paarfi an accurate >account of the histories which he is relating. ?It seems very like her >to want to have the correct info out there, but in a form that very >few people would actually believe to be entirely true. ?Even the more >fantastic parts of Paarfi's tales may have come from Sethra. ?The right >people, those who would understand the truth and know what to do with it, >will read it and see it for what it is. ?The other readers are just an >incidental side-audience. ?In this way, she can disseminate vital information >without it being obviously attributed to her. > >I like this theory. > S P O L I E R ? I like this theory, too, but... What if, like Vlad, Paarfi was re-encarnated and is remembering the events, but doesn't realize he remembers them and while looking up the information, remembers exact events, but is thinking he is just making them up. Like when Kieron (I think) recocnizes Vlad in the Halls of Judgement, but Vlad doesn't have a clue as to why he should have anything to say to Kieron. We know he can't be Khaavren 'cause he's still alive. But then again, I know I am weird, people have told me so numerous times. > >> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 05:55:27AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: >> >> > He means Lavode. You've never read Philip's theory that Sethra is >> > Paarfi? . . . >> >> Two points: >> >> First (and not aimed at Howard in particular) -- I was cracking a joke >> that when Philip said 'one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the >> triune aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra' >> one of the three aspects he used was ambiguous. ?Especially after he >> was so careful to call out specific incarnations of Paarfis. ?Jeez. ?:-) >> >> Second, as for the theory - yes I read it, yes I conveniently ignored >> it while cracking a joke, and finally, no, I don't buy it. ?I *like* >> it, but I don't buy it. ?IMHO, it's unproven. >> -- >> "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why >> ?smart-asses are over-represented." >> ? ? Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm > From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Jan 12 09:36:04 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:36:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <200501121525.j0CFPBgN018513@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200501121525.j0CFPBgN018513@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: @> This is the first I've heard of the theory that Paarfi is Sethra. @> I like better the idea that Sethra has been feeding Paarfi an accurate @> account of the histories which he is relating. It seems very like her @> to want to have the correct info out there, but in a form that very @> few people would actually believe to be entirely true. Even the more @> fantastic parts of Paarfi's tales may have come from Sethra. The right @> people, those who would understand the truth and know what to do with it, @> will read it and see it for what it is. The other readers are just an @> incidental side-audience. In this way, she can disseminate vital information @> without it being obviously attributed to her. @> @> I like this theory. Well, this would require that Paarfi's account is accurate, which itself is kind of a dubious proposition. On the other hand, it would definitely make sense for Sethra to feed Paarfi misleading information so that the public would never find out The Awful Truth[0]. [0] "I'll tell them I just handed you Blackwand. There's no need to get into all that stuff with the tea-cosy and the army of animated lead miniatures." From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 12 09:37:04 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <200501121737.j0CHb4tN024862@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Casey wrote: > ReVibe68 at aol.com writes > > On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got > > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > > to fiend justttt a little. > > He first mentioned working it out in his head in October '02. In Nov '03, > he said tentatively that it would be Tiassa and pick up after Issola. By > March '04, new ideas were flowing, leading to a change in the working title > to Dzur. He hasn't leaked any other specifcs publicly. I know he's working on it, and though I'm as impatient as the rest on this list, I've resolved not to bug him TOO much. You rush a miracle, you get a rotten miracle. And, of course, one shouldn't rattle a writer's pen-hand, just as one shouldn't jog a blademan's sword arm. Though that doesn't mean I won't grumble while exercising my patience. Everyone needs a hobby, what? If I had to guess, I'd say it will be out this fall/winter. No matter when it's out, it's bound to be great. Chris PS-Not sure if this'll go through, as the last couple I sent I haven't yet seen. Ah, well. From books at bofh.com Wed Jan 12 10:06:02 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:06:02 -0700 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <200501121737.j0CHb4tN024862@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200501121737.j0CHb4tN024862@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050112180602.GA3464@bofh.com> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 09:37:04AM -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Casey wrote: > > ReVibe68 at aol.com writes > > > On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got > > > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > > > to fiend justttt a little. > > > > He first mentioned working it out in his head in October '02. In Nov '03, > > he said tentatively that it would be Tiassa and pick up after Issola. By > > March '04, new ideas were flowing, leading to a change in the working title > > to Dzur. He hasn't leaked any other specifcs publicly. > > If I had to guess, I'd say it will be out this > fall/winter. No matter when it's out, it's bound > to be great. I'd guess early 2006. The Tor website [2] only has a schedule out to April 2005 right now, and it's not there. (Although it appears reprints of both Agyar and Gypsy are forthcoming). This would mean the last half of the year. My recollection is that the books typically get out a month or two after whatever their initial date is. Amazon doesn't have a publish date either, another one of our early data points. [1] -Jot [1] Although not a terribly accurate datapoint it at least provides an approximation. [2] http://www.tor.com/schedule.html [3] [3] So what if they're out of order, my brain is occasionally non-linear :) -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Jan 12 10:05:47 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:05:47 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: <8b.1e788eb0.2f1583cc@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050112130119.03496590@pop.east.cox.net> At 14:39 01/11/2005, Jeff G. wrote: >Doesn't Paarfi mention at one point to the change from the Phoenix to Dragon >reign? (IE Zerika to Norathar) _The Phoenix Guards_l is written in the 309th year of Zerika IV. _Five Hundred Years After_ is written in the 11th year of Norathar II. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 15:34:59 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:34:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <200501121737.j0CHb4tN024862@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050112233459.55800.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Casey wrote: > > ReVibe68 at aol.com writes > > > On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: I think it's as on-topic as you can get. > > > Anyone got > > > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > > > to fiend justttt a little. "Fiend"? It may say something about me that this list seems to be one of my main sources of current slang. (But don't bother to define it--it's self-explanatory, and it's also at Urban Dictionary.) Anyway, cat, I dig where your head is at about the next book! > > He first mentioned working it out in his head in October '02. In Nov > '03, > > he said tentatively that it would be Tiassa and pick up after Issola. > By > > March '04, new ideas were flowing, leading to a change in the working > title > > to Dzur. He hasn't leaked any other specifcs publicly. ... > If I had to guess, I'd say it will be out this > fall/winter. No matter when it's out, it's bound > to be great. If he delivered it today, could it get published in '05? How long are lead times, anyway? > PS-Not sure if this'll go through, as the last couple > I sent I haven't yet seen. Ah, well. Have you found out whether it went through yet? Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 12 16:03:34 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <200501130003.j0D03YtN019999@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Jerry Friedman wrote: > > If I had to guess, I'd say it will be out this > > fall/winter. No matter when it's out, it's bound > > to be great. > > If he delivered it today, could it get published in '05? How long > are lead times, anyway? Uh, well, perhaps I'm way off. I figured six months or so, after finishing. Perhaps I'm simply being over-optimistic, not to mention hopeful. > Have you found out whether it went through yet? That one did. Yesterday's didn't seem to; I guess the mail server decided it didn't like my post. ;) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 18:13:37 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:13:37 EST Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <12a.5498cd88.2f173351@aol.com> ReVibe68 at aol.com writes > On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > to fiend justttt a little. In response Jot Powers wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:06:02 -0700 >The Tor website [2] only has a schedule out >to April 2005 right now, and it's not there. (Although it appears >reprints of both Agyar and Gypsy are forthcoming). >[2] http://www.tor.com/schedule.html Hi everyone and Jot, Perhaps, you meant Sethra Lavode, paperback is forthcoming. Agyar, Orb trade paperback edition, came out around August 2004. Sethra Lavode, paperback, forthcoming March 2005 (still hoping for some Lavodewear by then) Gypsy, Orb Trade paperback, Steven Brust & Megan Lindholm, forthcoming April 2005 I was able to pick up the Orb trade paperbacks "Agyar", "The Sun, the Moon & the Stars", "Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille" and paperback "Freedom and Necessity" at a Barnes and Noble this summer. I have also seen Orb trade paperback To Reign in H*ll, paperbacks The Phoenix Guards and Five Hundred Years After at the same store. I think they have a warehouse somewhere and they keep restocking with 1 of whatever Steven Brust books they have including The Book of Jhereg, The Book of Taltos, and the Book of Athyra omnibus volumes, Dragon and Issola paperbacks. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 19:04:08 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:04:08 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: Hi everyone and Rion, I was not going to mention this addition but maybe it helps. Addition to tsalmoth: "I recommend the tsalmoth in garlic butter." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 8, page 70 Also on http://dragaera.info/links/ If you click on Phoenix's Steven Brust fan page and click on Those wacky animals. you go to http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/animals.html which list seems mostly the same as http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html except that the tsalmoth entry has the addition of tree-dwelling turtle. 'Tsalmoth: somewhat bearlike (of course, I find it hard to relate this to tree-dwelling turtles) - is known for unpredictability and tenacity.' Does anyone remember Steven Brust ever mentioning tree-dwelling turtles? Do oysters, snails and turtles go with garlic butter? Bye. Linda G. Tsalmoth "Tsalmoth maintains though none knows how". "Loiosh woke up with a start, looked around, and jumped down from my shoulder. He began working on the remains of my tsalmoth ribs" The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 6, page 50 "I recommend the tsalmoth in garlic butter." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 8, page 70 Internet mentions turtles having ribs, snail shells having ribs and oysters having ribs. From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 19:22:32 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:22:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050113032233.91426.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > I believe in one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the triune > aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra. Brusts, plural First of all, we have at least two Steven Brusts to deal with. One is the author whose books reviewers review and we buy, and to whom publishers pay royalties. He writes of Paarfi as his creation [TPG487]. Then there is the translator who interviews Paarfi [FHYA548-553], thus becoming a character in the world of the books written by Brust the author. There seems to be a third Brust as well: the interviewer, the "fool" who paid Vlad to tell him his life story and convinced him no one would hear about it [Ath9; also Orc16?]; or he may be the second in another guise. http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#Brusts -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 19:26:01 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:26:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050113032601.35064.qmail@web13125.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > Let us assume Paarfi is accurate, or rather that he is not pulling his > histories from a nether region. If so, he would be considerably different from Dumas (on whose work Brust modeled the Paarfiad), who played EXTREMELY fast and loose with time and historical events and personages in the Musketeers books, and probably his other work as well. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From books at bofh.com Wed Jan 12 19:30:32 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:30:32 -0700 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <12a.5498cd88.2f173351@aol.com> References: <12a.5498cd88.2f173351@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050113033032.GA8199@bofh.com> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 09:13:37PM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > ReVibe68 at aol.com writes > > On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got > > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > > to fiend justttt a little. > > In response Jot Powers wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:06:02 -0700 > > >The Tor website [2] only has a schedule out > >to April 2005 right now, and it's not there. (Although it appears > >reprints of both Agyar and Gypsy are forthcoming). > > >[2] http://www.tor.com/schedule.html > > Hi everyone and Jot, I may be anyone, but nice to know I'm not everyone. :) > Perhaps, you meant Sethra Lavode, paperback is forthcoming. > > Agyar, Orb trade paperback edition, came out around August 2004. > > Gypsy, Orb Trade paperback, Steven Brust & Megan Lindholm, > forthcoming April 2005 I meant the trade paperbacks. Didn't look too hard at the dates, just saw the titles weren't "Dzur". I'm also a bit suprised we haven't seen a "Brokedown Palace" trade/ reprint. Suspect it's some sort of licensing issue, but that is unfounded rampant speculation. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From ReVibe68 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 20:09:47 2005 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:09:47 EST Subject: Re ext up in the Vladiad Message-ID: On a side note ans perhaps WAAAY offf Topic: Anyone got > info on Brusts next tale in the Vladiad? I'm startin > to fiend justttt a little. In response Jot Powers wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:06:02 -0700 >The Tor website [2] only has a schedule out >to April 2005 right now, and it's not there. (Although it appears >reprints of both Agyar and Gypsy are forthcoming). >[2] http://www.tor.com/schedule.html Hi everyone and Jot, Perhaps, you meant Sethra Lavode, paperback is forthcoming. Agyar, Orb trade paperback edition, came out around August 2004. Sethra Lavode, paperback, forthcoming March 2005 (still hoping for some Lavodewear by then) Gypsy, Orb Trade paperback, Steven Brust & Megan Lindholm, forthcoming April 2005 I was able to pick up the Orb trade paperbacks "Agyar", "The Sun, the Moon & the Stars", "Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille" and paperback "Freedom and Necessity" at a Barnes and Noble this summer. I have also seen Orb trade paperback To Reign in H*ll, paperbacks The Phoenix Guards and Five Hundred Years After at the same store. I think they have a warehouse somewhere and they keep restocking with 1 of whatever Steven Brust books they have including The Book of Jhereg, The Book of Taltos, and the Book of Athyra omnibus volumes, Dragon and Issola paperbacks. Thanks for the info, I'd already heard about the Sethra Lavode PB. Problem is I have it in HC already. I was hoping that someone had a tidbit about the next totally NEW addition to the Vladiad. In This World there are no enemies, nor are there friends; There are only potential opponents with varying degrees of skill. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 20:58:11 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <1ad.2f040fa5.2f1759e3@aol.com> Jot Powers wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:30:32 -0700 >I'm also a bit surprised we haven't seen a "Brokedown Palace" >trade/reprint. ReVibe68.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:09:47 EST >I was hoping that someone had a tidbit >about the next totally NEW addition to the Vladiad. Hi, I remembered reading a Steven Brust posting that said he thought he had signed the papers for a reprint of Brokedown Palace. But I cannot find it with Dragaera search. Anyone else remember? And how is this for a tidbit(wild speculation) on Dzur and Brokedown Palace: Miklos livery in Brokedown Palace: "The boots supported legs wrapped in brown wool, and a body wrapped in a dirty green tunic over a stained yellow jerkin. On the breast of the jerkin a small animal was sloppily embroidered in black and white" Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 38 >From Mark A. Mandel cool website cracksandshards.com, http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html we learn the colors of Miklos' clothes are Teckla colors and that embroidery is Dzur colors. Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 43, we learn that Miklos master was a wizard or sorcerer. "His master had owned ten times the land that Laszlo ruled, yet was called the name that means 'Baron' in their tongue. Miklos shuddered as he thought of the power his master had wielded. An effort of will, and he could be miles away. A snap of his fingers and a hovel would burn and crumble and disappear as if it had never been." I wonder if the lord over in Whiterock is a Baron. I wonder if Vlad will meet up with Miklos former master in Dzur. "I don't know. I know that someone else is lord over in Whiterock, though. A Dzurlord. We hear stories about him." The Book of Athyra, Chapter 5, page 58 Would Vlad have gone through Whiterock because of what Savin had said on that page or had Vlad already come through Whiterock? Bye. Linda G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 12 20:55:03 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:55:03 -0700 Subject: questions about Paarfi References: <20050113032233.91426.qmail@web13122.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" To: "Philip Hart" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:22 PM Subject: Re: questions about Paarfi > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > I believe in one Paarfi, accurate and indivisible, of which the triune > > aspects are Paarfi the Historian, Paarfi the Romancer, and Sethra. > > > Brusts, plural > > First of all, we have at least two Steven Brusts to deal with. One is the > author whose books reviewers review and we buy, and to whom publishers pay > royalties. He writes of Paarfi as his creation [TPG487]. > > Then there is the translator who interviews Paarfi [FHYA548-553], thus becoming > a character in the world of the books written by Brust the author. > > There seems to be a third Brust as well: the interviewer, the "fool" who paid > Vlad to tell him his life story and convinced him no one would hear about it > [Ath9; also Orc16?]; or he may be the second in another guise. > > http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#Brusts > > > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > Now you are treading on the ground Heinlein walked in "The Number of the Beast". Has the act of writing these characters resulted in their creation on another plane? And if so, does that mean that Steven has in essence created himself? And I thought I was narcissistic! Jeff G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 12 21:02:24 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:02:24 EST Subject: When did Vlad learn to swim? Message-ID: <149.3cc27842.2f175ae0@aol.com> Hi, When I came across the below text recently, I wondered how Vlad learned to swim? His father? His grandfather? Loiosh? Kiera? Is learning to swim related to a happy memory or an unhappy memory? Vlad says "started splashing after him". If Vlad learned >from Loiosh, he might just know how to jhereg paddle? But then, could he keep up with Morrolan? Maybe a jhereg breaststroke? How did Morrolan know Vlad could swim? Bye. Linda G. The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 10, page 106 "It was a bit easier after that, though, and eventually I found myself in water, and Morrolan was next to me. The water was very cold. My teeth started chattering, and I saw that Morrolan's were, too, but I was too cold to be pleased about it. Loiosh angrily climbed onto my shoulder. The noise was still deafening, every inch of me was soaked, and my hands hurt like blazes from gripping the rope. I put my mouth next to Morrolan's ear and yelled, 'What now?' He gestured a direction with his head and we struck out for it. After having developed a symbiotic relationship with that rope, it was hard to let go of it, but I did and started splashing after him. Loiosh took wing and flew just over my head. The mist kicked up by the waterfall made it impossible to see more than a couple of feet ahead of me. The current was strong, though, and tended somehow to keep Morrolan and me together, so I never lost sight of him. I was too busy fighting the current and keeping track of Morrolan to be as scared as I ought to have been, but it wasn't actually all that long before my feet felt the bottom of the river, and then we were crawling up onto the bank, and then we collapsed, side by side." From casey at the-bat.net Thu Jan 13 06:14:46 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:14:46 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel, wrote: > Brusts, plural [explanation snipped] To which, Jeff Gibbons responed: > Now you are treading on the ground Heinlein walked in "The > Number of the Beast". Has the act of writing these > characters resulted in their creation on another plane? > And if so, does that mean that Steven has in essence > created himself? And I thought I was narcissistic! This is fairly standard in modern literary criticism. The author and the narrator are never the same person, especially in fiction. Steve hasn't created himself, but rather, a representation of himself. Think of it as a self-portrait. There are many examples of works that emphasize the nature of the relationships between the author and his characters, not least of which is the play Six Characters in Search of an Author, by L. Pirandello, circa 1921, but in fact extends back much further. Personally, I love plays with a 'play within a play' aspect. Not to mention, I think you should consider whether or not the entire relevant section of FHYA was a joke. Casey From feetalsjeez at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 08:53:10 2005 From: feetalsjeez at yahoo.com (Tim Owen) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:53:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re Next up in the Vladiad Message-ID: <20050113165310.91907.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> ReVibe68.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:09:47 EST >I was hoping that someone had a tidbit >about the next totally NEW addition to the Vladiad. Well, this might certainly qualify as a tidbit: http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From books at bofh.com Thu Jan 13 09:43:06 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:43:06 -0700 Subject: Re Next up in the Vladiad In-Reply-To: <20050113165310.91907.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050113165310.91907.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113174306.GA13775@bofh.com> On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 08:53:10AM -0800, Tim Owen wrote: > ReVibe68.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:09:47 EST > > >I was hoping that someone had a tidbit > >about the next totally NEW addition to the Vladiad. > > Well, this might certainly qualify as a tidbit: > > http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi *laugh* Naturally he posts this after all of our discussions. :) ----> Wed Jan 12th, 2005 10:09 PM -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From casey at the-bat.net Thu Jan 13 09:50:54 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:50:54 -0500 Subject: Steve's Weblog (was RE: Re Next up in the Vladiad ) In-Reply-To: <20050113165310.91907.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tim Owen wrote: > ReVibe68.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:09:47 EST > > >I was hoping that someone had a tidbit > >about the next totally NEW addition to the Vladiad. > > Well, this might certainly qualify as a tidbit: > > http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi Wherein, Steve logged last night: >This is proving to be an interesting book to write. [snip] >Onward. Steve, the only way out is through. Glad to hear you're happy with it for now. Don't mind the slobbering hordes. Wait, you've got your own stand in there. Give the big white horde a pat on the head for us. :) Casey From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 09:25:22 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:25:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <200501130003.j0D03YtN019999@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050114172523.49100.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > If I had to guess, I'd say it will be out this > > > fall/winter. No matter when it's out, it's bound > > > to be great. > > > > If he delivered it today, could it get published in '05? How long > > are lead times, anyway? > > Uh, well, perhaps I'm way off. I figured six months or > so, after finishing. Perhaps I'm simply being over-optimistic, > not to mention hopeful. Or perhaps I'm just wrong--for the first time ever. > > Have you found out whether it went through yet? > > That one did. Yesterday's didn't seem to; I guess > the mail server decided it didn't like my post. ;) I think you need to have a talk with it about the First Amendment. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 14 10:42:33 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:42:33 -0700 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <20050114172523.49100.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114172523.49100.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:25:22 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >> That one did. Yesterday's didn't seem to; I guess >> the mail server decided it didn't like my post. > > I think you need to have a talk with it about the First Amendment. You're joking, but what has the First Amendment have to do with the Internet? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Jan 14 16:00:13 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:00:13 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050110150903.CQCP18792.fed1rmgxi04.cox.net@dd-b.net> References: <20050110150903.CQCP18792.fed1rmgxi04.cox.net@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <48ngu01sef1cg014g8e5hj1sps1cdhj6pq@4ax.com> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:08:24 -0500, you wrote: >lazarus writ: >> ...and why so many bloody articles? > >You could always try Russian, which has none. FHow do they manage that? From daveg at frost.he.net Fri Jan 14 16:01:38 2005 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:01:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <48ngu01sef1cg014g8e5hj1sps1cdhj6pq@4ax.com> from "lazarus" at Jan 14, 2005 04:00:13 PM Message-ID: <1105747298.9689@frost.he.net> > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:08:24 -0500, you wrote: > > >lazarus writ: > >> ...and why so many bloody articles? > > > >You could always try Russian, which has none. > > =46How do they manage that? > Moose and squirrel! Natasha, get code book from desk. We must finish report for Big Boss before cocktail hour! From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 14 16:02:49 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:02:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <48ngu01sef1cg014g8e5hj1sps1cdhj6pq@4ax.com> References: <20050110150903.CQCP18792.fed1rmgxi04.cox.net@dd-b.net> <48ngu01sef1cg014g8e5hj1sps1cdhj6pq@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, lazarus wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:08:24 -0500, you wrote: > > >lazarus writ: > >> ...and why so many bloody articles? > > > >You could always try Russian, which has none. > > FHow do they manage that? It isn't so bad, is it? Consider what you wrote, and what I'm writing, and what you responded to. Look, ma, no articles! From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 16:17:23 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:17:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Re: Linguistic Note Message-ID: <20050115001723.91215.qmail@web13125.mail.yahoo.com> drat, meant to send this to the list: > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, lazarus wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:08:24 -0500, you wrote: > > > >lazarus writ: > > > >> ...and why so many bloody articles? > > > >You could always try Russian, which has none. > > > FHow do they manage that? > > It isn't so bad, is it? Consider what you wrote, and what I'm writing, > > and what you responded to. Look, ma, no articles! > > Well, they're always trying to figure ours out. We have trouble with the way > French articles. "J'aime l'art", literally "I love the art", for English "I > love art." Of course, the French not only have more articles than we do -- > masculine/feminine x singular/plural definite, and masc/fem indefinite -- but > they have more than THEY realize they do: in effect, plural and non-count > indefinite articles! > > un ami = a friend (masc) > une amie = "" (f) > des amis = friends > > du lait = milk, some milk (masc) > de la pluie = rain, some rain (fem) > > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Fri Jan 14 19:44:57 2005 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge) Date: 14 Jan 2005 22:44:57 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: <200501121525.j0CFPBgN018513@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1105760699.1297.2.camel@ilmarin> On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 12:36, John Klein wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > @> This is the first I've heard of the theory that Paarfi is Sethra. > @> I like better the idea that Sethra has been feeding Paarfi an accurate > @> account of the histories which he is relating. It seems very like her > @> to want to have the correct info out there, but in a form that very > @> few people would actually believe to be entirely true. Even the more > @> fantastic parts of Paarfi's tales may have come from Sethra. The right > @> people, those who would understand the truth and know what to do with it, > @> will read it and see it for what it is. The other readers are just an > @> incidental side-audience. In this way, she can disseminate vital information > @> without it being obviously attributed to her. > @> > @> I like this theory. > > Well, this would require that Paarfi's account is accurate, which itself > is kind of a dubious proposition. > > On the other hand, it would definitely make sense for Sethra to feed > Paarfi misleading information so that the public would never find out > The Awful Truth[0]. > And why would you give Paarfi _accurate_ information anyway? He'd drop half of it and distort the other to make it fit his prior intentions. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 14 19:23:53 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:23:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <1105760699.1297.2.camel@ilmarin> References: <200501121525.j0CFPBgN018513@vice-grips.mit.edu> <1105760699.1297.2.camel@ilmarin> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, James Burbidge wrote: > And why would you give Paarfi _accurate_ information anyway? He'd drop > half of it and distort the other to make it fit his prior intentions. Then you'd kill him as a warning after you read the draft. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 14 20:26:59 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 21:26:59 -0700 Subject: questions about Paarfi In-Reply-To: <1105760699.1297.2.camel@ilmarin> Message-ID: <000101c4faba$74f21620$667ba8c0@Dad133> James Burbidge wrote: > And why would you give Paarfi _accurate_ information anyway? He'd > drop half of it and distort the other to make it fit his prior > intentions. Some stories are just fun to tell - especially if they give you an excuse to tell some other parts of your story. For instance there is a scene where ****** starts to tell Sethra why he is reluctant to take on some duties and she replies "bide" before he can say what's on her mind. Very funny, and the kind of story which makes a good story back home when he returns. It doesn't have to be true. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Sat Jan 15 19:09:15 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:09:15 -0500 Subject: questions about Paarfi Message-ID: > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > James Burbidge wrote: > > > And why would you give Paarfi _accurate_ information anyway? He'd > > drop half of it and distort the other to make it fit his prior > > intentions. > > Some stories are just fun to tell - especially if they give you an excuse It's also possible that Sethra originally had the idea of disseminating information (accurate or not) this way, without realizing what Paarfi would actually publish, then decided for whatever reason that what Paarfi was publishing suited her purposes or sense of humor. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 16 15:15:29 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:15:29 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1e3.32fe0960.2f1c4f91@aol.com> Hi, Rednut bread(Earth version)...took digital pictures...baked and tasted. Question for the medical/cooking knowledgeable people: What flavors "produce a sting upon the back of the tongue? When you grind peanuts too much, you get peanut butter. "rednuts that have been ground to a powder" Does anyone know of a way to grind peanuts into a powder or know of a nut that would grind to a powder? Looked around on the Internet a bit and in the one bread recipe book I have. Lots of recipes had coarsely chopped nuts in them >from 1/4 cup to 1/2 cup. I decided on 1/2 a cup since it is a 1 1/2 pound bread machine. I was worried about having too many dry ingredients, so I did not use 1/2 cup of bread mix. Rednuts. There were some red pistachio nuts at the store, but I knew they were dyed red and I think I would have had to shell them. So when I came across the can of Planters Redskin Spanish peanuts, I grabbed them. 1 box Cracked Wheat Krusteaz Bread Machine Mix (less 1/2 cup) 1 package of yeast from box 1/2 cup finely ground Planters Redskin Spanish Peanuts 8 drops of red food dye 1 cup room temperature water Follow directions on bread mix box. Follow directions for bread machine if used. Box has directions on side for oven baking. Put 8 drops of red food dye into water in bread machine pan. Put 1/2 cup of peanuts into food processor and grind into little bits of peanuts. Keep stopping and checking that you are not making peanut butter. Put bread mix in bowl and remove 1/2 cup of bread mix. Mix ground peanuts and bread mix in a bowl and put in pan. Level dry ingredients. Pour yeast into a small indentation in center of dry ingredients. Set bread machine to Whole Wheat. Set to light bread crust color or whichever you want. Start bread machine and go away for a couple of hours. Clean bread machine pan as soon as you get the bread out. It came out very pink. I tried it with Colby cheese. It was good and had an interesting texture and I always thought I did not like wheat bread. It tasted best toasted. Goes good with real butter too. One female relative already knew the ingredients in the bread. She did not like the bread. She liked the texture. Did not like the color at all. Would not eat it with the cheese. Would not try it toasted. She said she doesn't like wheat bread anyways. Second female relative: I did not tell her what was in bread at all. I know she is not allergic to peanuts. She said "Is this made for Valentine's Day?" She tried it with the Colby cheese and untoasted. She said it was nutty and very good and thought it would go good with jelly. I told her the ingredients and she did not think her husband would try it even though he likes wheat bread because of the color. Today's cooking recipe is from His Majesty's kitchen in Dragaera City: Khaavren speaking "'The bread,' he remarked after swallowing the first bite, 'is famous, warm as it is, though I admit that the color surprises me, and the cheese produces a sting upon the back of the tongue that I find quite pleasing.' 'I am glad the food pleases you, my lord,' said the pastry chef, who had done himself the honor of serving Khaavren personally, 'for the bread is of my own fashioning, and uses in proportions which are my particular secret, rednuts which have been ground to a powder mixed with wheat flour; it is these that account for the color, as well as the texture. As to the cheese, I can claim no credit save for selecting it. It comes from the vassals of Lord Dunn, and--my lord? Are you well? You seem pale and are pitching most alarmingly, and I beg you to--hullo? My lord? Help, someone! Help! The Captain has been taken ill!'" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-second, page 328 Bye. Linda G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 17 04:58:05 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:58:05 -0500 Subject: jhereg Message-ID: <6355CB3A.62D380D3.00184D6D@aol.com> I forgot to bring my book with me today, so I know I am not getting the quote right (maybe someone could help). Anyway, _Athyra_ , near the end somewhere (but more towards the middle) Savn looks at (see I can't remember) Loish or Rocza and remarks about their long neck and how their wings, from the side, folded look like triangles, while from the front looks like 2 tall buildings built too close together. I hope that helps the "House Pictures." -C From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 17 08:33:00 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:33:00 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <1e3.32fe0960.2f1c4f91@aol.com> Message-ID: <49ec01c4fcb2$35572ba0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >What flavors "produce a sting upon the back of the tongue? I shouldn't think it would be a flavor so much as a reaction. If you've ever eaten a really strong swiss or a very sharp cheddar then I think you'd probably have an idea what Khaavren was describing. Notice that he attributes this feeling to the cheese and not to the bread itself. >When you grind peanuts too much, you get peanut butter. >"rednuts that have been ground to a powder" Does anyone >know of a way to grind peanuts into a powder or know of >a nut that would grind to a powder? It's the oil in the peanuts (and most other nuts) that causes it to become "nut butter". For rednuts to be ground to a powder they would have to essentially be fat-free. As far as I know, most Terran nuts store fat as part of their reason for existence (i.e., an energy source for a seedling). I suppose a rednut could be something like an acorn, or it might be some part of a rednut plant that isn't actually involved in the growing of new plants. More of a "stone" than what we think of as a nut. Do soynuts contain oil? Maybe it's something like soy... A quick search of the web produced this info from alt.food.fat-free FAQ at http://timinvermont.com/fitness/faq12.htm#58: ----- 5.8. Fat content of nuts Sad to say, but nuts are very high in fat. Most nuts get between 60 and 95%CFF. The ONLY exceptions are gingko nuts (13%CFF) and chestnuts (8%CFF). ----- It's past the season now, but you could probably find some chestnuts around if you tried. I'd imagine that grinding them in something like a pepper grinder would produce the desired effect. Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 17 08:58:38 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:58:38 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <49ec01c4fcb2$35572ba0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <4a6301c4fcb5$ca782c90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Another thing to consider is that rednut isn't a nut at all. Rather, it could be that it's a large seed similar to Betelnut (aka Beetlenut), which is actually the seed of a palm fruit rather than an actual nut. Ground betelnut might even give a red color to the bread like rednut. Of course, betelnut is a low-grade stimulant. Cooking probably destroys the active ingredients (hence the reason it's chewed with the raw leaf) but it would certainly be interesting to have a bit of a "rush" along with your morning toast if it didn't. Imagine becoming addicted to your bread... Though having it turn your toast turn your mouth red might be considered a drawback. *heh* Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jan 17 03:56:50 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 03:56:50 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <49ec01c4fcb2$35572ba0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <49ec01c4fcb2$35572ba0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <1105963010.2394.151.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2005-01-17 at 08:33, Scott Schultz wrote: > >When you grind peanuts too much, you get peanut butter. > >"rednuts that have been ground to a powder" Does anyone > >know of a way to grind peanuts into a powder or know of > >a nut that would grind to a powder? > > It's the oil in the peanuts (and most other nuts) that causes it to become > "nut butter". For rednuts to be ground to a powder they would have to > essentially be fat-free. It is quite common in Hungarian desserts for nuts of various sorts to be ground down to a powder and mixed with the flour. I'm not sure of any special technique used to do this. From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Jan 17 09:14:01 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:14:01 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life,culture, and art. Message-ID: <687CC460.3B4BBA01.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:56:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Brust writes: >On Mon, 2005-01-17 at 08:33, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> >When you grind peanuts too much, you get peanut butter. >> >"rednuts that have been ground to a powder" ?Does anyone >> >know of a way to grind peanuts into a powder or know of >> >a nut that would grind to a powder? >> >> It's the oil in the peanuts (and most other nuts) that causes it to become >> "nut butter". For rednuts to be ground to a powder they would have to >> essentially be fat-free. > >It is quite common in Hungarian desserts for nuts of various sorts to be >ground down to a powder and mixed with the flour. ?I'm not sure of any >special technique used to do this. > > > > I'm wondering if roasting them or putting them in a food dehydrater would do the trick??? -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 17 09:33:29 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:33:29 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life,culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <1105963010.2394.151.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4a7e01c4fcba$a8d71100$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >It is quite common in Hungarian desserts for nuts of various sorts to be >ground down to a powder and mixed with the flour. I'm not sure of any >special technique used to do this. When I think of "powder" I think "grains too small too easily distinguish" rather like baking flour. Are "powdered" nuts simply very coarsely ground or are they actually flour-like in consistency? At the least I'd guess you'd want an actual grinder as opposed to using a food processor or some other device that would pulverize the nuts, thereby releasing the oil. Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jan 17 04:33:30 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:33:30 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life,culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <4a7e01c4fcba$a8d71100$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <4a7e01c4fcba$a8d71100$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <1105965210.2394.155.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2005-01-17 at 09:33, Scott Schultz wrote: > >It is quite common in Hungarian desserts for nuts of various sorts to be > >ground down to a powder and mixed with the flour. I'm not sure of any > >special technique used to do this. > > When I think of "powder" I think "grains too small too easily distinguish" > rather like baking flour. Are "powdered" nuts simply very coarsely ground or > are they actually flour-like in consistency? > They are flour-like in consistency. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 17 09:52:26 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:52:26 -0800 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeranlife,culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <1105965210.2394.155.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4ae501c4fcbd$4e30dc60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] >They are flour-like in consistency. One thing you can say about this list is that you learn something new every day. For anyone who's interested, here's a link to some information about nut meal/flour and how it's produced. http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html It sounds like you would want to use a mill of some kind to do the grinding as opposed to a powered chopper or food processor. I still like the idea of substituting Beetlenut for the rednut. :-P Scott Schultz scott at cjhunter.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 17 09:52:38 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:52:38 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life,culture, and art. Message-ID: <3B8D88A5.7FEAD62B.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:14:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:56:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Brust writes: > >>On Mon, 2005-01-17 at 08:33, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >>> >When you grind peanuts too much, you get peanut butter. >>> >"rednuts that have been ground to a powder" ?Does anyone >>> >know of a way to grind peanuts into a powder or know of >>> >a nut that would grind to a powder? >>> >>> It's the oil in the peanuts (and most other nuts) that causes it to become >>> "nut butter". For rednuts to be ground to a powder they would have to >>> essentially be fat-free. >> >>It is quite common in Hungarian desserts for nuts of various sorts to be >>ground down to a powder and mixed with the flour. ?I'm not sure of any >>special technique used to do this. >> >> >> >> > >I'm wondering if roasting them or putting them in a food dehydrater would do the trick??? >-- >John D. Barbato, O.D. > > Baklava has ground (or chopped depending on prefrance) walnuts, but it's mixed with cinnamon and sugar and someother spice I can't think of and it comes out nice and crunchy, not "buttery." -C From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jan 17 10:13:24 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:13:24 -0500 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeranlife,culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <4ae501c4fcbd$4e30dc60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Scott Schultz wrote: > > >From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > > >They are flour-like in consistency. > > > One thing you can say about this list is that you learn > something new every day. > > For anyone who's interested, here's a link to some > information about nut meal/flour and how it's produced. > > http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html Aha. I was speculating something along those lines. If you can't find the nut flour you like, grinding the nuts will help release the oils enough that you could press more out. If anyone wants to try the recipe again with peanuts, I'd recommend starting with a natural (unsalted) peanut butter and pouring off the oil that will have separated on the shelf. (Don't throw away the oil. Peanut oil is great for cooking.) The remaining paste will still have some oil in it, but it will be closer to your end goal. Casey From dgf at dd-b.net Mon Jan 17 15:17:02 2005 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Jan 2005 23:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20050117231702.20079.qmail@dd-b.net> a-flint (at) hotmail.com (email) "Anna Flint" abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zerika (at) gmail.com (email) Zerika zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel zwegan (at) comcast.net (email) "Zachery W" From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 17 20:28:53 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:28:53 EST Subject: House Pictures Message-ID: <103.58fd37d2.2f1dea85@aol.com> "The Cycle Phoenix sinks into decay Haughty dragon yearns to slay. Lyorn growls and lowers horn Tiassa dreams and plots are born. Hawk looks down from lofty flight Dzur stalks and blends with night. Issola strikes from courtly bow Tsalmoth maintains though none knows how. Vallista rends and then rebuilds Jhereg feeds on others' kills. Quiet iorich won't forget Sly chreotha weaves his net. Yendi coils and strikes unseen Orca circles, hard and lean. Frightened teckla hides in grass Jhegaala shifts as moments pass Athyra rules minds' interplay Phoenix rise from ashes, gray." Yendi phoenix "Phoenix sinks into decay" dragon "Haughty dragon yearns to slay." "had a sudden, clear vision of a monstrous head--narrow, triangular, and reptilian. He had never seen it before, but his stay in Faerie had taught him to recognize it. Three small tentacles, which Miklos knew to be sense organs, descended from its chin, there would be larger ones around its neck, Miklos didn't remain to see them." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 "The dragon stopped suddenly, and the Prince could see its neck tentacles becoming hard and rigid. He chuckled to himself at the vaguely sexual impression it gave. Then he realized that the dragon was standing in almost the same place he had vacated a few minutes before, and he was very pleased he had moved. But what had it found? The athyra. Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 45 "It is one thing to know that a dragon's head is taller than you are, another to see one close up. The dragon wasn't looking at him but at the dzur; and all of its tentacles were fully erect. This time Miklos found nothing amusing about it. He stared mesmerized, until he heard a louder snarl than he'd hear yet, and a thin black streak launched itself across his line of sight and into the dragon's face." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 "He was fifty feet away when Vilmos leapt onto the dragon's back, crying, 'I said I'd strange you, and by the Demon Goddess I will!'" "Even his massive hands couldn't come close to actually fitting around the dragon's throat, but he took one of its great tentacles and twisted and pulled it." ... "Teeth, however, are not the dragon's only weapon. A claw that was as big as Vilmos himself swung out too quickly to be seen," ... "Miklos saw the dragon's tail whipping around." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 49 "The dragon...turned toward us, then, its mouth open, showing teeth the size of Blackwand, and began to move in our direction." Issola, Chapter 15, paperback, page 235 The size of Blackwand: "It was small for a longsword" The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 6, page 60 "It is really hard to conceive of just how big a dragon is, I can tell you that that it could eat me, perhaps without the need for a second bite. I can mention that it has tentaclelike things all around its head, each of which is longer than I am tall and as big around as my thigh. I could let you know that, at the shoulders, it was eighteen feet high and much, much longer than that. But, until you've seen one up close, you just can't really image it." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 12, page 126 lyorn "Lyorn growls and lowers horn" "Her hair was golden--and if I'd meant 'blond' I would have said 'blond.' Her eyes were the same color, rather like a lyorn's, and deeply set." The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, 1st page of Chapter 6 words used in describing a dog "the sleek build of a lyorn" The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 2, page 228 tiassa "Tiassa dreams and plots are born." "They passed more statuary. When they reached the tiassa, which was poised upon its hind legs, wings outspread," The Paths of the Dead, Chapter the Twenty-Ninth, paperback, page 318 hawk "Hawk looks down from lofty flight" dzur "Dzur stalks and blends with night." "He heard a snarl off to his left and stepped back, alert. He found himself staring into the yellow eyes of a dzur, about thirty feet away from him. Five hundred pounds of black death." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 46 issola "Issola strikes from courtly bow" "The issola is a beautiful white bird. I'd seen several during my recent travels. One usually saw them standing, graceful and lovely in the early morning or late evening, in swamps or the shallow banks of rivers. They stand as if their only reason for being were to look lovely and graceful. And, then the issola would be holding a fish in its beak, and you'd never see it strike. And then the fish would be gone in a single swallow, and the issola would be standing on one leg, looking lovely and graceful." Issola, Chapter 1, paperback, page 14 Tsalmoth "Tsalmoth maintains though none knows how". "Loiosh woke up with a start, looked around, and jumped down from my shoulder. He began working on the remains of my tsalmoth ribs" The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 6, page 50 "I recommend the tsalmoth in garlic butter." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 8, page 70 Internet mentions turtles having ribs, snail shells having ribs and oysters having ribs. vallista "Vallista rends and then rebuilds" jhereg "Jhereg feeds on others' kills." "It was of average size, if female, a bit large, if male. If my spell had worked, it would be female. Its wing span was about the distance from my shoulder to my wrist, and it was a bit less than that from its snakelike head to the tip of its tail. The forked tongue flicked out" The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 6 "The jhereg walked up to me. Its claws were long and sharp, but more useful for running then for fighting. After a full meal, a jhereg will often find that it weighs too much to become airborne and so must run to escape its enemies." ... "It was odd to see intelligence in small, beady snake eyes, and to have nearly human-level communication with an animal whose brain was no larger than the first joint of my finger." ... "And she turned and spread her batlike wings. She had to run a step two before taking off." The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 7 "this ugly little reptile was lying amid broken shell fragments. Its wings were tightly drawn up against it, and its eyes were closed. The wings were no larger than my thumb." ... "The bite was too small, and the poison still too weak for it to affect me, but he was certainly in possession of his fangs." The Book of Jhereg, Prologue, page 11 "allowed me to scratch its snakelike chin." The Book of Athyra, Orca, Chapter 1, page 217 Colors of the jhereg and also a guess of color change in spring. "The female was larger and becoming dark brown as summer gave way to autumn; the male was smaller and lighter in color. Savn guessed that in the spring the male would be green or grey, while the female would simply turn a lighter brown." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 1, page 9 "each wing when folded forms a perfect triangle" ... "Yet seen from the front, it looked like there was a snake's head bobbing up and down between the walls of two houses that had been built too close together." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 9, page 104 "He flew over to her and wrapped his talons around her wrist. She scratched under his chin, going with the scales." The Book of Taltos, Yendi, Chapter 7, page 233 >From a painting "the dzur had scored a long scratch in the jhereg's wing. The jhereg's jaws were going for the dzur's neck, but the dzur nearly had its mouth around the long, snakelike neck of the jhereg. The jhereg was of the normal breed, not one of the nonpoisonous giant ones that dwelt above Deathsgate Falls, yet it was one of the largest I had ever seen, and should be able to give a good fight to...I blinked. The scene hadn't changed. The orange-red sky was right, but I realized that I was inside, on a bed, in fact. I was looking at a painting that filled the ceiling above me. Someone's idea of a joke, no doubt, to have me wake up to that sight. Could I view the painting so that it appeared the jhereg was winning? I could and did. It was a nice painting. I took a deep breath and--I was alive!" Yendi, Chapter 7, Ace paperback, page 79 "She held out her arm, and Loiosh flew to her, allowed his chin to be scratched, and then, just to show his high regard for her, he bent his head to allow her to scratch the scales that concealed his ears: a special mark of honor, because jhereg are very protective of their ears. I don't know if Sethra appreciated the honor." Issola, Chapter 2, paperback, page 31 jhereg have only two legs. You will not find this in the text, but Steven Brust wrote on Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:48:14 -0800 >Oh, and the other thing is that the jhereg does not have four legs. That's >the cover artist's rendition. I think it's a great cover, but that doesn't >mean it's accurate. :-) iorich "Quiet iorich won't forget" "Her eyes were as soft as an iorich's wing," The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 7, page 58 chreotha "Sly chreotha weaves his net." "and a thin layer of chreotha fur between me and the sky." Issola, Chapter 1, paperback, page 12 yendi "Yendi coils and strikes unseen" orca "Orca circles, hard and lean." "Off to the left, the side I was on, a pair of orca surfaced for a moment, then dived. I kept watching, and it happened again, somewhat closer, then yet a third time. They were sleek and graceful; proud. They were very beautiful." ... "Yinta said, 'Those were shorttails. Did you notice the white splotches on their backs? When they're young they tend to travel in pairs. Later they'll gather into larger groups.' 'Their tails didn't seem especially short,' I remarked. 'They weren't. They were both females; the males have shorter tails." The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 2, page 193 dream of an orca with the face of a dragon??? "I woke up in the middle of the night with the half memory of a dream in which I was flying over the ocean, into a nasty wind, and my wings were very tired. I kept wanting to rest, and every time I did an orca with the face of a dragon would rise out of water and snap at me." The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 4, page 227 teckla "Frightened teckla hides in grass" "A little way off, a teckla sat up on its back legs, motionless except for a quick, furtive movements of its gray, whiskered head." Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 jhegaala "Jhegaala shifts as moments pass" "I thought for a minute. Jhegaala eggs? No, she'd made that yesterday." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 10, page 87 athyra "Athyra rules minds' interplay" "On a branch of the oak nearest him sat an athyra with its thick brown plumage and hooked beak. Brokedown Palace, Chapter 3, page 44 "A large brown bird that I recognized as an athyra studied us with one eye." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 11, page 113 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 17 21:13:28 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:13:28 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <126.5493fc29.2f1df4f8@aol.com> Today's cooking recipe is from the Hammerhead Inn in Dragaera City: "roasted fowl, dripping with fat and positively smothered with mushrooms, short-grain bread baked with sweet peppers and half-garlic, and a bottle of sweet white wine" ... "Mica gave a loud, imperious call for bread, with which he intended to soak the remaining juice from the broad, wooden platter upon which the fowl had been presented. A servant brought a loaf of coarse black bread" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-second, pages 331, 332 Hi, So what is short-grain bread? Rice? What does half-garlic mean? Rion, For your dragaeran feast at Opus 2006 roasted chicken smothered in mushrooms Second bread is a coarse black bread...maybe like Outback's bread. For gardeners: Did not find any Hungarian sweet pepper seeds at burpee but a search for Hungarian cames up with Hot Pepper Hungarian Wax Canary yellow turning to bright red when ripe. http://www.burpee.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID= 1417&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=Hungarian googling for peppers "Hungarian sweet" seeds came up with several websites for seeds http://www.amishlandseeds.com/peppers.htm HUNGARIAN DEATH HOT CHILE PEPPER Klari Baby Cheese Sweet Hungarian Sweet Pepper This website had several varieties of Hungarian sweet pepper seeds. http://www.southernexposure.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc? Bye. Linda G. From mark_englehart at cox.net Tue Jan 18 06:47:06 2005 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 06:47:06 -0800 Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <103.58fd37d2.2f1dea85@aol.com> References: <103.58fd37d2.2f1dea85@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050118064357.03b81f78@pop.west.cox.net> Has anybody mentioned the intro to Dzurlord yet? Currently posted at Small Invisible Lights: http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html Very important information about the animals and a very rare book. (To the best of my knowledge, the story in Dzurlord is not canon, but the intro, written by Steven, is). Hope this helps Mark From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 18 09:01:07 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:01:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: House Pictures In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050118064357.03b81f78@pop.west.cox.net> References: <103.58fd37d2.2f1dea85@aol.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050118064357.03b81f78@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Mark Englehart wrote: @> Has anybody mentioned the intro to Dzurlord yet? Currently posted at Small @> Invisible Lights: @> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html @> @> Very important information about the animals and a very rare book. (To the @> best of my knowledge, the story in Dzurlord is not canon, but the intro, @> written by Steven, is). I think he's said before that he doesn't consider any of it canonical, in the sense that if he has a better idea about what, say, a tsalmoth ought to look like, he isn't going to avoid using it because of that intro. So the best that could be said about it is that it represents what his thoughts on what the appearances of the House creatures were at the time it was written. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 09:45:06 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:45:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Today's recipe, non-Dragaeran but maybe Hungarian-influenced [Was RE: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeranlife,culture, and art.] Message-ID: <20050118174506.63917.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Casey Rousseau wrote: > Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > >From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > > > > >They are flour-like in consistency. > > > > > > One thing you can say about this list is that you learn > > something new every day. > > > > For anyone who's interested, here's a link to some > > information about nut meal/flour and how it's produced. > > > > http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html > > Aha. I was speculating something along those lines. If you can't find > the > nut flour you like, grinding the nuts will help release the oils enough > that > you could press more out. If anyone wants to try the recipe again with > peanuts, I'd recommend starting with a natural (unsalted) peanut butter > and > pouring off the oil that will have separated on the shelf. (Don't throw > away the oil. Peanut oil is great for cooking.) The remaining paste > will > still have some oil in it, but it will be closer to your end goal. You guys are making this way too hard. The purpose of rotary nut choppers is to get a less oily result, but a food processor or blender works for this kind of thing. Here's one of my favorite recipes, which I've made when invited to a Passover seder, but it's more than good enough for special occasions without dietary restrictions. I've made it both with walnuts and with almonds, and I grind them in a "cooking for one" food processor. Cutting up cereal boxes to make the sugar-and-cocoa decoration is way more work than it's worth (to me), and I don't even consider the chocolate leaves. I think it's tastier, even if a bit cliche, to top it with blobs of raspberry sauce--just strained frozen raspberries with sugar to taste, as seen in your favorite American cookbook. Strawberry sauce would probably be just as delicious. I found this version written in abbreviated style at rec.food.recipes: or . Chocolate Walnut Torte (8) >From Anne Willan's Look & Cook Chocolate Desserts, ISBN 1-56458-031-8 Butter, line with paper, butter and flour a 9" springform pan Heat oven to 300F Chop 7 oz chocolate Grind (in two batches in food processor, in four in blender) with 1 2/3 c walnut pieces For finer texture, first grind the nuts in a rotary grater Cream 1/2 c butter Add, beat 2-3 minutes 3/4 c sugar Add, one at a time 4 yolks Stir in chocolate and walnut mixture using rubber spatula Whisk stiff 4 whites Sprinkle in whisk until glossy 1/4 c sugar Fold into chocolate mixture Transfer to springform, smooth top with spatula Bake until skewer inserted in center comes out clean, 60-70' Cool completely in pan. Remove ring, leave torte on pan bottom because it is delicate. Melt 4 oz semisweet chocolate Brush onto shiny side (leave some of stem uncovered) of 20-25 rose leaves Cook, refrigerate until set. Peek leaves away from chocolate. Whip in bowl set in ice water until soft peaks form 1 c cream Add, whip until soft peaks form again 1 T sugar 1/2 t vanilla Spread over top and side of cake, chill about 1 hour. Chop and melt in bowl set in hot water. 1 oz semisweet chocolate Make paper piping cone and fill with chocolate, pipe lines over top of cake. Or drizzle from a spoon. Arrange chocolate leaves around cake. ------------------------------ Chocolate Almond Torte (variation of Chocolate Walnut Torte, nondairy if you use margarine) Replace walnuts with whole blanched almonds. Instead of cream and chocolate, decorate as follows: Cut 4-5 3/4" wide strips of cardboard, lay parallel on top of cake. Sprinkle confectioners sugar Lift off strips, shake off sugar. Lay back on cake on diagonal to sugar lines. Sift cocoa powder over cake, remove strips. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Tue Jan 18 15:29:49 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:29:49 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life,culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <687CC460.3B4BBA01.0015B39F@aol.com> References: <687CC460.3B4BBA01.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <41ED9BED.9080301@comcast.net> No amount of roasting will get rid of the oil. However, you can grind nuts. In a food processor, you do it in short bursts and stop before the oil weeps out and glues everything together. The best way, though, is with a nutgrinder. It actually shaves the nuts with tiny blades and makes a very fluffy nut flour. It's also good for cheese, chocolate, etc. I love mine . . . Mia Bato001 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/17/2005 6:56:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Brust writes: > > > >>On Mon, 2005-01-17 at 08:33, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >> >> >>>>When you grind peanuts too much, you get peanut butter. >>>>"rednuts that have been ground to a powder" Does anyone >>>>know of a way to grind peanuts into a powder or know of >>>>a nut that would grind to a powder? >>>> >>>> >>>It's the oil in the peanuts (and most other nuts) that causes it to become >>>"nut butter". For rednuts to be ground to a powder they would have to >>>essentially be fat-free. >>> >>> >>It is quite common in Hungarian desserts for nuts of various sorts to be >>ground down to a powder and mixed with the flour. I'm not sure of any >>special technique used to do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >I'm wondering if roasting them or putting them in a food dehydrater would do the trick??? > > From vendersleighc at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 18:02:14 2005 From: vendersleighc at yahoo.com (Ven) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:02:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spare Copy of Cowboy Feng Message-ID: <20050119020214.8680.qmail@web21327.mail.yahoo.com> Hi everyone, I've acquired a spare copy of Cowboy Feng. I will mail it to the first person who emails me. ===== Ven __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Jan 18 18:23:09 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:23:09 +0100 Subject: Spare Copy of Cowboy Feng In-Reply-To: <20050119020214.8680.qmail@web21327.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mail as in sell or as in give away? I don't have the book, so I'm awfully interested, the thing is though that I probably live on the wrong continent... /Martin >From: Ven >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Spare Copy of Cowboy Feng >Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:02:14 -0800 (PST) > >Hi everyone, > I've acquired a spare copy of Cowboy >Feng. I will mail it to the first person who >emails me. > >===== >Ven > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! >http://my.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Jan 18 20:30:44 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:30:44 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <198.36984872.2f1f3c74@aol.com> Mia McDavid wrote on Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:29:49 -0600 >No amount of roasting will get rid of the oil. However, you can grind >nuts. In a food processor, you do it in short bursts and stop before >the oil weeps out and glues everything together. Hi, That is what I did. The peanuts ground down pretty small, so you could not really tell you were crunching on them in the bread, but they were not powder (flour). After reading the website Scott Schultz wrote about, I think I added almost nut meal (peanut) to cracked wheat bread. Scott Schultz wrote on Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:52:26 -0800 >http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html Mia McDavid wrote on Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:29:49 -0600 >The best way, though, is with a nutgrinder. It actually shaves the nuts >with tiny blades and makes a very fluffy nut flour. It's also good for >cheese, chocolate, etc. I love mine . . . What is the name, make or model of your machine? Someone I know might have one. But it probably still would not be nut flour. "Nut flours are ground >from the cake that remains after oils are pressed from nuts" http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html I checked two grocery stores nearby and they do not sell almond flour or any other kind of nut flour. http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html says "Nut flour lacks the gluten that baked goods need to rise, so in those recipes substitute no more than 1/4 of the wheat flour with nut flour." There is a an 800 number for ordering flour...I did not realize there were so many different nut flours....so the question comes back to Rednuts Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Jan 18 20:44:31 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:44:31 EST Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? Message-ID: What do you think is the closest Earth substitute for rednuts? "jheregs and found a way to put human-level intelligence into a brain the size of a rednut, but they never put any jhereg genes into Dragaerans." "There, Loiosh. You should feel grateful to the " booksearch chapter jhereg09.html " said Khaavren. "Your injuries," said Pel. "What of them? You know that we soldiers are made rednut wood, and, should our bark be punctured, we may lose a little sap, but we will send " booksearch chapter 500ya27.html "rednut liqueur" book search chapter yendi03.html "At the end of the meal, the host caused to be delivered a large cake made of mulberries and rednuts, topped with boiled fruit and a cream made >from goat's milk. The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Twenty-second page 253 "Her Majesty seemed oblivious to the discussion, and concentrated all of her attention on a plate of sliced peaches, grapes, and rednuts that had been covered with a decoction of white wine and cinnamon mixed with sugar and sweet cream, all surrounded by tiny blocks of ice carved into the shape of trees. Khaavren, after noting it, turned his eyes firmly away, feeling uncomfortably like the family dog salivating at the bone on his master's plate." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Eleventh, page 147 "'A few moments only,' said Mario. 'A few moments that I will spend boiling these rednuts in this liqueur before spooning them onto the cold fruit, and eating them before the temperatures have evened out. I suggest, My Lord, you busy yourself in the same way, and, before the bowl of nuts has exhausted itself, well, I believe I will have an answer for you.' This plan was instantly adopted, and Dunaan applied his full attention to the rednuts, the liqueur, and the iced fruit, while Mario thought matters over." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Nineteenth, page 292. "'The bread,' he remarked after swallowing the first bite, 'is famous, warm as it is, though I admit that the color surprises me, and the cheese produces a sting upon the back of the tongue that I find quite pleasing.' 'I am glad the food pleases you, my lord,' said the pastry chef, who had done himself the honor of serving Khaavren personally, 'for the bread is of my own fashioning, and uses in proportions which are my particular secret, rednuts which have been ground to a powder mixed with wheat flour; it is these that account for the color, as well as the texture. As to the cheese, I can claim no credit save for selecting it. It comes from the vassals of Lord Dunn, and--my lord? Are you well? You seem pale and are pitching most alarmingly, and I beg you to--hullo? My lord? Help, someone! Help! The Captain has been taken ill!'" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-second, page 328 From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 19 06:34:41 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:34:41 -0500 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com asks: > What do you think is the closest Earth substitute for rednuts? The more I look at this list the more I suspect that the nut Steve had in mind was an almond, except that almonds don't add much if any color to anything. Almonds have a reddish brown skin over the nutmeat. Brain the size of an almond would be consitent with that of many reptiles. Almonds are tree nuts that grow on a tree much like the peach tree. Almond liqueur is quite tasty. Almonds make an excellent ingredient in cakes and other desserts. Casey From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 19 07:54:25 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:54:25 -0800 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <62a301c4fe3f$26b81710$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >What do you think is the closest Earth substitute for rednuts? What do we know about rednuts? They're red. :-P They're small enough to fit inside of a Jhereg's head. They are used in a variety of sweets. They are used as the base of a liquer. They can be ground and used to flavor bread. Now, we really know nothing at all about the flavor of rednuts. Based solely on the above information (without doing any extensive searching for Hungarian possibilities) I'd suggest Hazelnut. It fills the bill admirably. Granted it's not red, but I can't think of any commercially available nut that is red and turns things red that come in contact with it. (Unless you want to explore the Betelnut connection. *heh*) From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Jan 19 09:33:14 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:33:14 +0000 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For the life of me, I can't find a copy, whether its used or on ebay, or anyway... I've got, I think, everything else, with the possible exception of a book where our esteemed author is just one of many contributors (not sure if this is something I imagined or not) But I've got all the vladiad. all the paarfi sun, moon, stars cowboy feng's brokedown palace agyar (one of my favs because of the main character's odd traits [no spoilers]) freedom and necessity (goddamn that's a good book--even for Steve) to reign in hell (see above parentheses) Am I forgetting anything? Yeah, just so we can give Steve another ego boost: I'd rate, on a scale of 1-10 on general awesomeness (being a compilation of those factors mentioned in the preface to TRIH, I think it was book anyway, also taking into account the sheer PLEASURE derived from reading the book) all of Steve's books as a default of 10, with some going to 11 , (being Agyar, F&N, TRIH) and maybe 1 or 2 being marked down to 9. The nines, I'd imagine, would be: Issola: Awesome story, but I couldn't help getting worried about Vlad becoming an over-powered character. I'm sure Steve will find ways to nerf (reduce) the powers of GS so that he's still vulnerable, thus putting Issola back to 10. The other would, if I had to choose one, have to be Teckla. I don't really have as strong a reaction to the book that some others on the list do, but it *was* a painful book to read. Especially because I'm in a successful relationship (going on 8 year now, still not married, though) and my best methods to fix relationship problems just wouldn't work there---and it's tough for me to imagine my girlfriend and I drifting inexorably apart like that...though if it happened, I'm sure the fact that she absolutely refuses to read Steve's books would be a big factor :) (she doesn't like assassins) Anyway, someone let me know if they have a spare copy of gypsy, please. Jon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 19 09:41:50 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:41:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, J C wrote: > For the life of me, I can't find a copy, whether its used or on ebay, or > anyway... half.com has 13 copies listed: http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=152143&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1 [praise of F&N clipped] Guess I'm going to have to go buy a copy. From books at bofh.com Wed Jan 19 09:52:16 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:52:16 -0700 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050119175216.GA18149@bofh.com> On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 09:41:50AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > [praise of F&N clipped] > > Guess I'm going to have to go buy a copy. F&N is the one book of Steven's that I USED TO own. All others I still do. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jan 19 04:57:06 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:57:06 -0800 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1106139426.2394.205.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2005-01-19 at 09:33, J C wrote: > For the life of me, I can't find a copy, whether its used or on ebay, or > anyway... Tor is in the process of bringing out a new edition. I'm not sure of the release date, though. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Jan 19 10:14:12 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:14:12 +0000 Subject: Overpowering Vlad In-Reply-To: <20050119180700.49375.qmail@web54602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ...until Aliera or someone felt like healing him. Yes, it's true, they have a GODDESS on their side. But nevertheless, if the *Jenoine* can't kill someone so that it's permanent (without even trying, that is--I'm sure their measures to prevent revivification would take a hell of a lot to break down). I mean, Vlad's arm couldn't be touched by either Aliera, Sethra OR Verra after that weapon hit him. But Morrolan, who is *killed*, is able to be brought back in time. I guess Morrolan got really lucky they weren't using a fatal version or intensity of the weapon that hit Vlad. But then, maybe Blackwand took preventative measures to ensure that what happened to Vlad didn't happen to Morrolan. And if there's anything that has the best chance of successfully doing something against a Jenoine, it's either a Deity or a GW. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Brother Ike To: J C Subject: Re: Spare Copy of Gypsy? Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:07:00 -0800 (PST) --- J C wrote: > Issola: Awesome story, but I couldn't help getting worried about Vlad > becoming an over-powered character. I'm sure Steve will find ways to nerf > (reduce) the powers of GS so that he's still vulnerable, thus putting Issola > back to 10. I occasionally see references to this, and I can't help but thinking that, well, Morrolan got killt quite nicely despite Blackwand...it just takes more planning, something that the Jhereg seem to be good at. And to paraphrase badly, a dagger in the back would still greatly put a downer on Vlad's day. Yours in snow, --Brother Ike ===== Brother Ike Unix SysAdmin Have R00T, Will Travel My thoughts alone... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 19 12:38:58 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:38:58 -0500 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <5B09BCCB.05AF2E59.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/19/2005 7:57:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Brust writes: >On Wed, 2005-01-19 at 09:33, J C wrote: >> For the life of me, I can't find a copy, whether its used or on ebay, or >> anyway... > >Tor is in the process of bringing out a new edition. ?I'm not sure of >the release date, though. > > > Wa hoo!!! The only books I have is the Vladid and TPG and FHYA. I really really want to read the other ones though! Stupid Barnes and Noble in Nashua doesn't... well I shouldn't complain. I got the ones I have atleast. Now I have to look on stupid e-bay. -C From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 13:29:43 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <5B09BCCB.05AF2E59.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050119212943.28999.qmail@web13125.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Wa hoo!!! The only books I have is the Vladid and TPG and FHYA. I really > really want to read the other ones though! Stupid Barnes and Noble in Nashua > doesn't... well I shouldn't complain. I got the ones I have atleast. Now I > have to look on stupid e-bay. You mean you don't have _The Viscount of Adrilankha_?* Barnes & Noble should certainly have those, and if not they can order them. Or you can order them >from Amazon, (should you so wish) through my web site, Cracks and Shards, specifically at http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/cracksandshards/books.html , just below the middle of the page. * (comprising _The Paths of the Dead_, _The Lord of Castle Black_, and _Sethra Lavode_ [originally to be known as _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_])? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 19 13:56:34 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:56:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <200501192156.j0JLuYam013105@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> -C wrote: > Wa hoo!!! The only books I have is the Vladid and TPG and FHYA. I really really want to read the other ones though! Stupid Barnes and Noble in Nashua doesn't... well I shouldn't complain. I got the ones I have atleast. Now I have to look on stupid e-bay. Aroo? I know _Agyar_ was reprinted recently, and _To Reign in Hell_ should be out as well. (Wasn't _Cowboy Fengs_ republished, too? I may be wrong on that one.) They should have them--any bookstore not carrying shelves of Brust books is not living up to their name! I would suggest hitting up a local bookstore and seeing what they can order for you. Books at the distributer should take maybe a week to come in. Usually, I look on Amazon for the ISBN #, then call up a bookstore I like supporting and have give them the # to order. I'd try and recommend one Brust book over another, as an "order this first, the others second", but he writes too well for me to make such a suggestion, I'm happy to say. :) Cheers, Chris "I would rather go honestly to Hell, admitting that I leaped knowingly into error and folly, than enter into the sweetest Heaven men can dream of by whining that I had been pushed." - _Freedom and Necessity_ - Brust & Bull From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jan 19 14:36:24 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:36:24 -0500 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <3130CAD2.4B5E7154.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 1/19/2005 12:33:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, "J C" writes: > I've got, I think, everything else, with the possible > exception of a book where our esteemed author is just one of > many contributors (not sure if this is something I imagined or > not) > > But I've got all the vladiad. > all the paarfi > sun, moon, stars > cowboy feng's > brokedown palace > agyar > freedom and necessity ( > to reign in hell > > Am I forgetting anything? Assuming you have all nine Vlad books and all five Paarfi, you have all of Brust's novels except _Gypsy_. You don't have any of the short stories though. The following anthologies each contain one story by Brust: _Liavek_ _Liavek: Players of Luck_ _Liavek: Wizard's Row_ _Liavek: Spells of Binding_ _Liavek: Festival Week_ all edited by Shetterly and Bull (note: _Casting Fortune_ only contains John M Ford stories) _The Essential Bordertown_ ed Windling and Sherman _Space Opera_ ed McCaffrey and Scarborough (note: check editors before buying; this is a popular title) _Xanadu_ ed Yolen and Greenberg _Sandman: Book of Dreams_ ed Gaiman and Kramer (note: prose anthology, not a comic) _Lord of the Fantastic_ ed Greenberg _Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune_ ed Abbey (new) "A Dream of Passion" (a Vlad story) was never formally published, but can be found online at: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/dream.html Brust wrote only the introduction to _Dzurlord_, and doesn't want to admit the existence of the graphic novel of _Jhereg_. --KG From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jan 19 18:43:27 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:43:27 -0600 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <5B09BCCB.05AF2E59.00184D6D@aol.com> (MedCat7@aol.com's message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:38:58 -0500") References: <5B09BCCB.05AF2E59.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com writes: > Wa hoo!!! The only books I have is the Vladid and TPG and FHYA. I > really really want to read the other ones though! Stupid Barnes and > Noble in Nashua doesn't... well I shouldn't complain. I got the ones > I have atleast. Now I have to look on stupid e-bay. You should check out the various merchants indexed collectively under , too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 19 18:56:29 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:56:29 -0700 Subject: Fw: Spare Copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: Original Message ----- From: "Jot Powers" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Spare Copy of Gypsy? > On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 09:41:50AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > [praise of F&N clipped] > > > > Guess I'm going to have to go buy a copy. > > F&N is the one book of Steven's that I USED TO own. All others > I still do. > > -Jot > -- Shame on you! Once you get used to the style, (which I found rather appealing), I enjoyed it a great deal. But then, the study of politics was a favored past time of mine, before I gave up on the rest of the human race. Jeff G. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 19 19:38:56 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:38:56 -0700 Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c4fea1$9277efe0$667ba8c0@Dad133> I was just in The Tattered Cover this evening and noticed a trade copy of Cowboy Feng's and a trade copy of To Reign in Hell. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 19 21:57:04 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:57:04 EST Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <1ee.336f8bad.2f20a230@aol.com> The Gypsy release month APRIL 2005 TRADE Orb trade paperback Steven Brust & Megan Lindholm, THE GYPSY http://www.tor.com/schedule.html From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 19 22:13:39 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 01:13:39 EST Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? Message-ID: <143.3d429a57.2f20a613@aol.com> Scott Schultz wrote on Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:54:25 -0800 >I'd suggest Hazelnut. It fills the bill admirably. >Granted it's not red, but I can't think of any commercially available nut >that is red and turns things red that come in contact with it. ( Hi, Hmmm...hazelnut...hazel is a color. Almond is a a color too. But then a person says almonds. They do not say almondnuts. I was wondering if I was wrong about using red food coloring. Khaavren does not mention that the bread is colored red. He is surprised at the color of the bread and the rednuts "account for the color", but the color is not mentioned. Hazelnuts...almonds Hazelnut flour...almond flour Hazelnut liqueur...almond liqueur Hazelnut wood...almond wood Anyone try to puncture either wood with a sword? Or know which is the tougher wood? Bye. Linda G. " said Khaavren. "Your injuries," said Pel. "What of them? You know that we soldiers are made rednut wood, and, should our bark be punctured, we may lose a little sap, but we will send " booksearch chapter 500ya27.html "'The bread,' he remarked after swallowing the first bite, 'is famous, warm as it is, though I admit that the color surprises me, and the cheese produces a sting upon the back of the tongue that I find quite pleasing.' 'I am glad the food pleases you, my lord,' said the pastry chef, who had done himself the honor of serving Khaavren personally, 'for the bread is of my own fashioning, and uses in proportions which are my particular secret, rednuts which have been ground to a powder mixed with wheat flour; it is these that account for the color, as well as the texture. As to the cheese, I can claim no credit save for selecting it. It comes from the vassals of Lord Dunn, and--my lord? Are you well? You seem pale and are pitching most alarmingly, and I beg you to--hullo? My lord? Help, someone! Help! The Captain has been taken ill!'" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-second, page 328 From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 19 22:27:25 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:27:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <143.3d429a57.2f20a613@aol.com> References: <143.3d429a57.2f20a613@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Hmmm...hazelnut...hazel is a color. Almond is a a color too. But then > a person says almonds. They do not say almondnuts. Nut is a color too - well, a shade: nut-brown, which my dictionary helpfully says is the color of brown nuts. Are hazelnuts hazel? From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 19 23:21:14 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:21:14 EST Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? Message-ID: <1aa.2fb9caf2.2f20b5ea@aol.com> philiph at slac.stanford.edu wrote on 1/20/2005 1:28:37 AM Eastern Standard Time >Are hazelnuts hazel? Hi, The dictionary I have says hazel is a pale brown color. For some reason, I always thought hazel was blue/green. Now, I have to change that definition in my head. I found a picture of a hazelnut on the Internet and the skin was medium/dark brown. The picture of hazelnut flour at http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html was pale with the medium/dark brown colors which I guess are from the skin. So I think hazelnuts are hazel, almonds are almond. And rednuts are red; until SKZB says different. Maybe if I add more red food coloring, the bread will be red and not pink. It works with red velvet cake which is a chocolate cake. Bye. Linda G. From books at bofh.com Thu Jan 20 06:29:16 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:29:16 -0700 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <143.3d429a57.2f20a613@aol.com> References: <143.3d429a57.2f20a613@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050120142915.GA25898@bofh.com> On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 01:13:39AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: [*snip*] > " said Khaavren. "Your injuries," said Pel. "What of them? You know that > we soldiers are made rednut wood, and, should our bark be punctured, we > may lose a little sap, but we will send " This is the only quote that got me thinking "pine nuts". They also work in a lot of foods. :) I still think that almonds (as sent in a private email) are the best bet. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Jan 20 09:46:14 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spare Copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <3130CAD2.4B5E7154.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050120174614.31691.qmail@web13125.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/19/2005 12:33:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, "J C" > writes: > "A Dream of Passion" (a Vlad story) was never formally > published, but can be found online at: > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/dream.html But should not be considered canonical. Consider it a dream, as the title says. If for no other reason than that it massively conflicts with _Issola_ (... avoiding spoilers for either...) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Thu Jan 20 09:51:18 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:51:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <20050120142915.GA25898@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050120175118.35195.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jot Powers wrote: > On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 01:13:39AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > [*snip*] > > > " said Khaavren. "Your injuries," said Pel. "What of them? You know > that > > we soldiers are made rednut wood, and, should our bark be punctured, > we > > may lose a little sap, but we will send " > > This is the only quote that got me thinking "pine nuts". They > also work in a lot of foods. :) As far as I know, the quote applies to most trees. > I still think that almonds (as sent in a private email) are the > best bet. They could also be like walnuts, which are much used in Hungarian cooking. I don't think anything is ruled out except for coconuts, which are bigger than a jhereg's brain. Well, peanuts don't sound right to me in the recipes, but what do I know? Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Jan 20 10:13:02 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:13:02 EST Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer Message-ID: <191.3717bf72.2f214eae@aol.com> I am running Windows Millenium at home. I have Optimum online. My internet explorer(6.0) keeps closing down every time I try to put info into a info field on a web page. Anybody have any idea why this happens??? I also get error 29 messages when trying to open up folders in windows explorer, My Computer. I* have looked all over the internet and in books. The only solution I can come up with is to reload the whole operating system or upgrade to XP. Please, I'm desperate. John D. Barbato, OD From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 20 10:24:48 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:24:48 -0800 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <20050120175118.35195.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77c101c4ff1d$52cfefb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >They could also be like walnuts, which are much used in Hungarian >cooking. >I don't think anything is ruled out except for coconuts, >which are bigger than a jhereg's brain. Well, peanuts don't >sound right to me in the recipes, but what do I know? The reference to making a liqueur out of the rednuts is a handy way of whittling down the Terran possibilities. That pretty much limits the field to hazelnuts, macadamia, almonds, and much to my own surprise, walnuts. (http://www.internetwines.com/mb351104.html / http://www.deliciousitaly.com/Basilicatarecipes6.htm) Now, my in my imagination a rednut looks pretty much like a hazelnut or a macadamia nut but I'm not sure there's any real basis for picturing it that way. With all the references to cakes and fruit-based desserts I'd say that walnuts would be every bit as likely as any of the other choices and probably more likely than some. I still like the idea of the hazelnut but I'd give equal credence to the walnut idea. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Jan 20 10:43:58 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:43:58 EST Subject: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer Message-ID: <86.1ffcdfd5.2f2155ee@aol.com> In a message dated 01/20/2005 1:39:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com writes: I'd run a full virus scan, and run windows update as many times as necessary to update all the portions of windows. That may or may not do the trick. -----Original Message----- From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:13 PM To: Dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer I am running Windows Millenium at home. I have Optimum online. My internet explorer(6.0) keeps closing down every time I try to put info into a info field on a web page. Anybody have any idea why this happens??? I also get error 29 messages when trying to open up folders in windows explorer, My Computer. I* have looked all over the internet and in books. The only solution I can come up with is to reload the whole operating system or upgrade to XP. Please, I'm desperate. John D. Barbato, OD It's not a Virus or adware infestation. This computer was virgin to the internet until yesterday and the Windows explorer problem has been there about a year. It just was never bad enough to bother me, and since I never used Internet explorer, I never knew it had a problem. I tried to update internet explorer and upon reboot i got an error message that windows was unable to complete it's update. John D. Barbato, OD From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Jan 20 10:47:45 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:47:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer In-Reply-To: <191.3717bf72.2f214eae@aol.com> References: <191.3717bf72.2f214eae@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: @> I am running Windows Millenium at home. I have Optimum online. My @> internet explorer(6.0) keeps closing down every time I try to put info @> into a info field on a web page. Anybody have any idea why this @> happens??? I also get error 29 messages when trying to open up folders @> in windows explorer, My Computer. I* have looked all over the internet @> and in books. The only solution I can come up with is to reload the @> whole operating system or upgrade to XP. @> Please, I'm desperate. Switch to Firefox or Opera and upgrade to XP. Serious advice. (Having recently ditched my own copy of ME.) That OS is basically unsupported and filled with bugs, and that browser is terrible on any OS (and is trivially easy to replace for most purposes). I imagine if you have some kind of defect that requires you to continue using IE, though, switching to XP should still solve your problem. You also may be able to get away with removing every piece of IE from your system and then re-installing IE 6. (Advice about adware and virii snipped since you wrote another message while I was writing this one saying those weren't the problem.) From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Jan 20 14:05:30 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:05:30 EST Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer Message-ID: In a message dated 01/20/2005 2:37:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, greyw01f at hotmail.com writes: oh good lord Why oh WHY are you running ME? Download, if you can, Mozilla. Then, install it on your new computer, after having axed the old one, as it is contaminated for eternity for ever having been sullied with ME code. Or you could try installing mozilla (an infinitely better browser) on ME and see what kind of fun and interesting ways it can cause such a solid program as Mozilla to crash. Jon To all, You have confirmed my worst fear. I will have to spend money!!!! Oh no!!!! All right, I know ME sucks, its as unstable as Charles Manson on crack. I'll pick up a full install version of XP on my way home tonight, wipe the hard drive and start from scratch. Thanks for all your help. PS: I was running ME because my wife is to cheap to buy XP. I'll go without her though, she'll never know (until we get the credit card bill of course.) John D. Barbato, OD From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 20 14:29:05 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:29:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > PS: I was running ME because my wife is to cheap to buy XP. I'll go without > her though, she'll never know (until we get the credit card bill of course.) If you're just trying to get utility out of your machine and not running any particular piece of MS code out of necessity (i.e., if you want to do bug-free Word-like word-processing but don't _have_ to give people perfect Word docs) and you're cost-conscious, consider downloading a free version of linux onto a disk, esp. if you know a friendly linux-user (who will have you check your wireless card to make sure the driver is available, etc.) Probably people on this list can point you to a good checklist... From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Jan 20 21:41:27 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:41:27 EST Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? Message-ID: <68.4d8fad7e.2f21f007@aol.com> In a message dated 1/20/2005 9:55:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, mark_englehart at cox.net writes: >Hi all, >Here is an image of hazelnuts http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hazelnuts.com.au/hazelnut26. gif&imgrefurl=http://www.hazelnuts.com.au/who%2520are.htm&h=268&w=230&sz=38&tb nid=1nUzIgIJUoAJ:&tbnh=107&tbnw=92&start=51&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhazelnut%26star t%3D40%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN >Having cracked more than a few filberts myself I can vouch for the reddish >color of the shell, which is what a common name, like rednut, would most >likely be based on. >My search for a picture also immediately brought up this recipe for >Hungarian Flourless Hazelnut cake. http://cake.allrecipes.com/AZ/HungarianFlourlessHazelnut.asp >Also, hazelnut wood is classified as a hard wood, suitable for floors, >furniture, staffs or even the shell of a drum. :) >Mark Hi, I think the above email just came to me and I sent it on because it was addressed Hi all. Thanks everyone for the info. Hmmm...drum....Ailbynn...nope his drum was made out of the shell of the sweetclam. Rednut shells were used to season the fire. Hey, rednuts have shells. Auggh! Just like hazelnuts, almonds, chestnuts, macadamia nuts and walnuts and probably every other kind of nut. Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 3, page 215 Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnuts/macadamia nuts/walnuts Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut flour (walnut flour may actually be walnut meal) Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut liqueur Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut wood Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnut/macadamia nuts/walnuts have an outer shell. Do you think hazelnuts might even look more reddish under an orange-red overcast. "Hazelnuts come from trees. They are almost round in shape, with a hard brownish-red outer husk and an inner kernel" http://www.baking911.com/pantry_nuts&seeds2.htm macadamia nuts - "tropical environment required to grow them" - like a jungle planet http://homecooking.about.com/library/weekly/aa050602a.htm Chestnuts outer shell might also be considered reddish. One website warned not to eat chestnuts raw. Dragaerans might be able to eat chestnuts raw, but Vlad should get sick if he does. http://homecooking.about.com/library/weekly/aa120400b.htm Hungary 2003 Production estimate: Chestnuts 800 Metric tons Hazelnuts 300 Metric tons http://www.fao.org/es/ess/top/commodity.jsp?commodity=220&lang=EN&year=2004 I've ordered some hazelnut flour and will make some wheat/hazelnut bread without the red food coloring. The hazelnut flour looks brown and white because of the hazelnut skin. I am wondering what it will look like cooked in bread. Bye. Linda G. From bonham15 at cox.net Thu Jan 20 22:33:59 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:33:59 -0600 Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer References: <191.3717bf72.2f214eae@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c4ff83$312d2f60$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> and lets not forget that wondrous file partition decay they build into millenium..... and i really don't believe they support it any more. i'm afraid you are running a dinosaur. andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Klein" To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: Re: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer > On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > > @> I am running Windows Millenium at home. I have Optimum online. My > @> internet explorer(6.0) keeps closing down every time I try to put info > @> into a info field on a web page. Anybody have any idea why this > @> happens??? I also get error 29 messages when trying to open up folders > @> in windows explorer, My Computer. I* have looked all over the internet > @> and in books. The only solution I can come up with is to reload the > @> whole operating system or upgrade to XP. > @> Please, I'm desperate. > > Switch to Firefox or Opera and upgrade to XP. Serious advice. (Having > recently ditched my own copy of ME.) That OS is basically unsupported and > filled with bugs, and that browser is terrible on any OS (and is trivially > easy to replace for most purposes). I imagine if you have some kind of > defect that requires you to continue using IE, though, switching to XP > should still solve your problem. You also may be able to get away with > removing every piece of IE from your system and then re-installing IE 6. > > (Advice about adware and virii snipped since you wrote another message > while I was writing this one saying those weren't the problem.) From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 21 04:13:57 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:13:57 -0000 Subject: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer In-Reply-To: <191.3717bf72.2f214eae@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050121121403.UBIP15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] > Sent: 20 January 2005 18:13 > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and > Windows explorer > > I am running Windows Millenium at home. I have Optimum > online. My internet explorer(6.0) keeps closing down every > time I try to put info into a info field on a web page. > Anybody have any idea why this happens??? I also get error > 29 messages when trying to open up folders in windows > explorer, My Computer. > I* have looked all over the internet and in books. The only > solution I can come up with is to reload the whole operating > system or upgrade to XP. > Please, I'm desperate. > > John D. Barbato, OD > Hi, A few things, someone suggested Mozilla, if you only want a Web browser, I would recommend Firefox, which is the browser component of Mozilla. Some web sites ONLY work in Internet Explorer (IE), however, you can download an extension to Firefox called "View in IE". If the page doesn't display properly in Firefox, you right-click and select "View in IE" and it loads that page in IE. That and Windows Update are the only reasons I keep IE on my systems at all. The Computer Security group that advises the US Government has recommended people stop using IE because of all the security issues. I would also agree with the recommendation to upgrade to XP, I'm no fan of Micro$haft, but it is the best consumer OS they have produced. If you can't get a copy of XP with service pack 2 included, let me know and I'll send you a copy of Service Pack 2 on disk (It's a BIG download). If anybody else would like one, please let me know. Cheers Mark From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 21 04:21:35 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:21:35 -0000 Subject: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer In-Reply-To: <191.3717bf72.2f214eae@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050121122140.CDWV9818.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] > Sent: 20 January 2005 18:13 > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: OT: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and > Windows explorer > > I am running Windows Millenium at home. I have Optimum > online. My internet explorer(6.0) keeps closing down every > time I try to put info into a info field on a web page. > Anybody have any idea why this happens??? I also get error > 29 messages when trying to open up folders in windows > explorer, My Computer. > I* have looked all over the internet and in books. The only > solution I can come up with is to reload the whole operating > system or upgrade to XP. > Please, I'm desperate. > > John D. Barbato, OD > Hi, A few things, someone suggested Mozilla, if you only want a Web browser, I would recommend Firefox, which is the browser component of Mozilla. Some web sites ONLY work in Internet Explorer (IE), however, you can download an extension to Firefox called "View in IE". If the page doesn't display properly in Firefox, you right-click and select "View in IE" and it loads that page in IE. That and Windows Update are the only reasons I keep IE on my systems at all. The Computer Security group that advises the US Government has recommended people stop using IE because of all the security issues. I would also agree with the recommendation to upgrade to XP, I'm no fan of Micro$haft, but it is the best consumer OS they have produced. If you can't get a copy of XP with service pack 2 included, let me know and I'll send you a copy of Service Pack 2 on disk (It's a BIG download). If anybody else would like one, please let me know. Cheers Mark From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 21 04:56:58 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 05:56:58 -0700 Subject: Problems with Microsoft Internet explorer and Windows explorer In-Reply-To: <20050121121403.UBIP15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: <000201c4ffb8$b1f8e280$667ba8c0@Dad133> Mark Tiller wrote: > Some web sites ONLY work in Internet Explorer (IE), however, you can > download an extension to Firefox called "View in IE". If the page > doesn't display properly in Firefox, you right-click and select "View > in IE" and it loads that page in IE. That and Windows Update are the > only reasons I keep IE on my systems at all. Partly this is because of dumb checking on the web page, and partly because IE allows tools such as Active-X which other browsers deem too dangerous to allow. If you use more than one browser, Optool is a handy utility: http://www.kreacom.dk/tools/optool/ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 08:52:57 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:52:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <68.4d8fad7e.2f21f007@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050121165258.16299.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> ... > Rednut shells were used to season the fire. Hey, rednuts have shells. > Auggh! Just > like hazelnuts, almonds, chestnuts, macadamia nuts and walnuts and > probably every other kind of nut. > > Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 3, page 215 > > Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnuts/macadamia nuts/walnuts > Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut flour (walnut flour may > actually > be walnut meal) If you search for "almond flour", you'll find that it can also be almond meal. > Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut liqueur I'm surprised to learn that chestnut liqueur exists, but I did the same Web search you probably did. Anyway, being surprised to learn things is good for me. > Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut wood > Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnut/macadamia nuts/walnuts have an outer shell. > > Do you think hazelnuts might even look more reddish under an orange-red > overcast. Sure, but everything else would too. > "Hazelnuts come from trees. They are almost round in shape, with a hard > brownish-red outer husk and an inner kernel" > http://www.baking911.com/pantry_nuts&seeds2.htm > > macadamia nuts - "tropical environment required to grow them" - like a > jungle planet > http://homecooking.about.com/library/weekly/aa050602a.htm > > Chestnuts outer shell might also be considered reddish. One > website warned not to eat chestnuts raw. Dragaerans might be able to > eat > chestnuts raw, but Vlad should get sick if he does. ... I think this quotation that you supplied rules out chestnuts: "'A few moments that I will spend boiling these rednuts in this liqueur before spooning them onto the cold fruit, and eating them before the temperatures have evened out. I suggest, My Lord, you busy yourself in the same way, and, before the bowl of nuts has exhausted itself, well, I believe I will have an answer for you.'" Chestnuts aren't nuts (except that they have hardish shells). They're soft and potato-like (and yummy, but the only good ones I've had were the time I was in Europe). I don't think anyone would refer to a bowl of chestnuts as a bowl of nuts. Okay, Merriam-Webster says "1 a : any of a genus (_Castanea_) of trees or shrubs of the beech family [...] b : the edible nut of a chestnut c : the wood of a chestnut" But culinarily they're not nuts. > I've ordered some hazelnut flour and will make some wheat/hazelnut bread > > without > the red food coloring. The hazelnut flour looks brown and white because > of > the > hazelnut skin. I am wondering what it will look like cooked in bread. I'll bet it won't be red, but it might be tasty. I've got to say, though, that in my opinion the best use of hazelnuts is eating them straight. -- Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Jan 21 09:25:46 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:25:46 -0600 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <20050120142915.GA25898@bofh.com> References: <143.3d429a57.2f20a613@aol.com> <20050120142915.GA25898@bofh.com> Message-ID: <41F13B1A.1080106@comcast.net> For what it's worth, peach trees, and so I presume also almonds, bleed thick visible sap when wounded--that seems to work, too. Mia Jot Powers wrote: >On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 01:13:39AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >[*snip*] > > > >>" said Khaavren. "Your injuries," said Pel. "What of them? You know that >>we soldiers are made rednut wood, and, should our bark be punctured, we >>may lose a little sap, but we will send " >> >> > >This is the only quote that got me thinking "pine nuts". They >also work in a lot of foods. :) > >I still think that almonds (as sent in a private email) are the >best bet. > >-Jot > > From asr at ufl.edu Sat Jan 22 13:00:24 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:00:24 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran RPG: Where does Grita go to gas up? Message-ID: <200501222100.j0ML0OaA235990@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Greetings all. My progress towards a dragaeran campaign using HERO rules proceeds apace. I've got a question on which I'd welcome reflection, and I wanted to share my provisional solution with you, for pelting with tomatoes or whatever. [ spoilers for the Viscount trilogy-ish below ] The question is: Where did Grita get her power from, on a day-to-day basis, and how did she maintain the supply? We know that she engaged in pre-empire sorcery, and we know that she 'reached an accomodation' with one Sea of Chaos or another. We might therefore infer that she at some time or another produced one or more 'small blue stones'. But does she -consume- these stones in the exercise of sorcery? Does she need to go back every few (weeks? months? years) to make more? Perhaps they are sufficiently potent that for magic on less than an epic scale just having one or two around will be sufficiently powerful. For that matter, how much chaos is around in the world? Perhaps the skilled practicioner can extract sufficient chaos from normal environments that they can later use it to accomplish their aims. Here is my solution to this, so far, expressed in Hero terms. Variable power pool: pre-empire sorcery Skill roll to change powers: "Pre-empire sorcery". Charges (all powers in the pool cost one charge per 10 active points) Charges take a long time to restore. Charges are difficult to restore. Charges are dangerous to restore. Charges are an accessible focus. (someone can steal your bag of blue stones) There are two methods available to replace charges: Method A: 1) Locate a sea of chaos, go there. 2) Make an accomodation with it (skill roll with substantial penalties) 3) Get a 'blue stone' with charge count related to how well you succeeded. 4) Get a 'Nasty Explosion' with damage related to how badly you failed. 5) Get a 'New Character' if you fail critically: the chaos accomodated all over your heiny. Repeat at will (operation should take on the order of a minute). Method B: 1) Spend four hours teasing whatever chaos is available in range into a usable form. 2) Make an accomodation with it (skill roll with moderate penalties) 3) Get a 'blue stone' with charge count related to how well you succeeded. 4) Get a 'Nasty Explosion' with damage related to how badly you failed. 5) Get a 'Major Disaster' if you fail critically: Big area-of-effect explosion, lots of damage, but theoretically survivable. "Medic!" Repeat at will, but you have to go somewhere else: you drained the chaos out of "here". Maybe a few klicks down the road. "here" might be usable again in a month. In round terms this means that an indifferently skilled wizard spending a 14-hour day collecting mana would be able to squeeze enough oomph out of the universe to cast several low-level spells, perhaps 10-20 points worth, at substantial risk to life and limb. This is Tazendra at the beginning of the Interregnum. (*FOOM*) An highly skilled wizard would be able to perhaps double this, at relatively little risk. I'd put Grita here, at the beginning of _Viscount_. This level of skill would be achievable by a player-character. A legendary-class wizard would be able to just wander over to the Lesser Sea, and mint mana-gems all day long, and mostly feel exhausted at the end of the day. I'd put Adron here. PCs would only get this far if I like the plot. - Allen S. Rout From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 22 16:46:35 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:46:35 EST Subject: Steven Brust short story in Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune Message-ID: <53.1fa34f03.2f244deb@aol.com> Steve's WebLog http://dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi >Steven Brust wrote on Mon May 19th, 2003 9:34 AM >I've been invited to do a short story for Thieves World, and >I've been sort of picking away at it. I'm really not >comfortable with short fiction. But I have some ideas, and if I >can pull this off, it should be all right. Of course, knowing >me, I'll probably get it down about six months too late for >the volume. Hi, I guess Steven made the deadline, because he is listed as one of the contributors to Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune, hardback, just published either December 2004 or January 2005. Bye. Linda G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 24 07:25:08 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:25:08 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok, if you haven't read Orca, please do not read this unless you want to ruin things for yourself... S O O O . . S P O L I E R Ok, I read _Orca_ three times now. On the very last page, Kiera writes to Cawti saying it was nice to see her and Vlad Norathar. WHAT?! During the "Interludes," I got that Cawti was pregnant, or so I thought, and the first 2 times I read the book, I though maybe it was a typo. Then I realized that Norathar was not mentioned at all in the book. Then I remembered the time. Vlad has been gone for about 2 years. Unless Easterners have a long gestation, that baby is almost 2 years old, depending on when Vlad knocked her up. They were on the rocks, so when did they do stuff? Unless it was make up sex and Vlad didn't feel like sharing. Anyway, I was shocked when that realization dawned on me. Anyone els get that when they read it? -C From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jan 24 08:06:44 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:06:44 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ok, if you haven't read Orca, please do not read this unless > you want to ruin things for yourself... > > S > O > O > O > . > . > S > P > O > L > I > E > R > > Ok, I read _Orca_ three times now. On the very last page, > Kiera writes to Cawti saying it was nice to see her and Vlad > Norathar. WHAT?! During the "Interludes," I got that Cawti > was pregnant, or so I thought, and the first 2 times I read > the book, I though maybe it was a typo. Then I realized that > Norathar was not mentioned at all in the book. Then I > remembered the time. Vlad has been gone for about 2 years. > Unless Easterners have a long gestation, that baby is almost > 2 years old, depending on when Vlad knocked her up. They were > on the rocks, so when did they do stuff? Unless it was make > up sex and Vlad didn't feel like sharing. Anyway, I was > shocked when that realization dawned on me. Anyone els get > that when they read it? I always figured there was some sort of final rapprochement when Vlad handed over South Adrilankha to her before he took off at the end of Phoenix, but this is one of those times when Alexx's timeline(1) helps considerably. Alexx reminds us that Teckla and Phoenix are back to back stories with only a few weeks between them and they take 22 and 32 days respectively. Doing the conversion for longer days and shorter weeks, this would allow for Cawti to be as little as '13 weeks' pregnant when a distracted Vlad last sees her in Phoenix even if they last had an opportunity to conceive VN prior to the start of Teckla. Alexx dates the birth as 7-9 Terran months after Phoenix, which would be reasonable for the rapprochement scenario, but I'm wondering whether Cawti's behavior through the two books might be interpreted differently if I posit that she knew she was pregnant at some point in Teckla. It goes without saying that as a witch, Cawti is unlikely to be unaware of her pregnancy and could as easily have, in the rapprochement scenario, increased her likelihood of conception knowing that she might very well never see Vlad again with the Jhereg chasing him. Mark, I wonder if it's worth adding anything to your Births, Deaths, & Injuries(2) page yet for this? Then again, you may want to wait until Steve fills in a few more details. Casey (1) http://www.panix.com/~alexx/dragtime.html (2) http://www.cracksandshards.com/deaths.html From marklandin at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 08:16:23 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:16:23 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <-4720817789108583914@unknownmsgid> References: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> <-4720817789108583914@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <16ee270e050124081674523ee0@mail.gmail.com> > It goes without saying that as a witch, Cawti is unlikely to be unaware of > her pregnancy and could as easily have, in the rapprochement scenario, > increased her likelihood of conception knowing that she might very well > never see Vlad again with the Jhereg chasing him. Given Cawti's witchcraft skills, are we not making a dangerous assumption about her gestation period? Could she not have extended or accelerated it to some degree, if she had so desired? If so, it makes calculating all these dates quite a bit trickier. (We MUST assume, however, that even witchcraft cannot produce a "virgin birth", or an "in vitro" fertilization ... it still takes two to tango, even in Drageara) From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 24 08:22:46 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:22:46 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <1a2101c50230$f04274a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >They were on the rocks, so when did they do stuff? Unless it was make up sex >and Vlad didn't feel like sharing. Anyway, I was shocked when that realization >dawned on me. Anyone els get that when they read it? I think it's fair to assume that Vlad tells us just about the events relevant to the story at-hand. In any case, the events of Tekla happen in a relatively short span of time. Cawti probably didn't have a local Walgreens to buy an E.P.T. at. It's not a huge stretch for her to have been impregnated shortly before the book opens, when they were still on civil terms with each other, and not realized it yet. One thing this can let us speculate about, though, is when Cawti knew she was pregnant. The E.P.T. joke aside, that's exactly the sort of thing that a witch would be paid to tell a person. Cawti is nowhere near as adept as Vlad, but I'd imagine she's dabbled in witchcraft. I'd be surprised if she hadn't picked up enough of the craft, simply by virtue of helping Vlad out, to know she was pregnant. Certainly, if she suspected she'd be likely to hire a witch to find out for certain. Whether she'd tell Vlad what she learned would be a different matter, given the storyline in Tekla. From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Mon Jan 24 08:26:28 2005 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:26:28 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <0IAT00JE7WTFTR@mailrly02.zimmer.com> Message-ID: <20050124112629384.00000001428@Z7581> -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at the-bat.net] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:07 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: duh! MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ok, if you haven't read Orca, please do not read this unless > you want to ruin things for yourself... > > S > O > O > O > . > . > S > P > O > L > I > E > R > > Ok, I read _Orca_ three times now. On the very last page, > Kiera writes to Cawti saying it was nice to see her and Vlad > Norathar. WHAT?! During the "Interludes," I got that Cawti > was pregnant, or so I thought, and the first 2 times I read > the book, I though maybe it was a typo. Then I realized that > Norathar was not mentioned at all in the book. Then I > remembered the time. Vlad has been gone for about 2 years. > Unless Easterners have a long gestation, that baby is almost > 2 years old, depending on when Vlad knocked her up. They were > on the rocks, so when did they do stuff? Unless it was make > up sex and Vlad didn't feel like sharing. Anyway, I was > shocked when that realization dawned on me. Anyone els get > that when they read it? I always figured there was some sort of final rapprochement when Vlad handed over South Adrilankha to her before he took off at the end of Phoenix, but this is one of those times when Alexx's timeline(1) helps considerably. Alexx reminds us that Teckla and Phoenix are back to back stories with only a few weeks between them and they take 22 and 32 days respectively. Doing the conversion for longer days and shorter weeks, this would allow for Cawti to be as little as '13 weeks' pregnant when a distracted Vlad last sees her in Phoenix even if they last had an opportunity to conceive VN prior to the start of Teckla. Alexx dates the birth as 7-9 Terran months after Phoenix, which would be reasonable for the rapprochement scenario, but I'm wondering whether Cawti's behavior through the two books might be interpreted differently if I posit that she knew she was pregnant at some point in Teckla. ********* to throw a monkey with a wrench into the scenario Verra may have just decided one day that Cawti and Vlad needed a child so she took care of everything (including messing with the length of pregnancy) From marklandin at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 08:28:37 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:28:37 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1a2101c50230$f04274a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> <1a2101c50230$f04274a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <16ee270e0501240828360b0946@mail.gmail.com> > Cawti is nowhere near as adept as > Vlad, but I'd imagine she's dabbled in witchcraft. Ok, Cawti may not be skilled enough to alter her own pregnancy, but other may be ... either witches, or sorcerors. I guess I giving her more credit than was warranted. :) From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 08:29:44 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:29:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1a2101c50230$f04274a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20050124162944.7946.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Schultz wrote: . . . . . . . . . . . > >They were on the rocks, so when did they do stuff? Unless it was make > >up sex and Vlad didn't feel like sharing. That's my guess. > > Anyway, I was shocked when that > realization > >dawned on me. Anyone els get that when they read it? I liked Kiera's comments about the iron will of his mother and the good looks of his father. The first may be a hint to Cawti to be more flexible, say if Vlad ever comes back, and the second is a new light on Vlad. > I think it's fair to assume that Vlad tells us just about the events > relevant to the story at-hand. In any case, the events of Tekla happen > in a > relatively short span of time. Cawti probably didn't have a local > Walgreens > to buy an E.P.T. at. It's not a huge stretch for her to have been > impregnated shortly before the book opens, when they were still on civil > terms with each other, and not realized it yet. Good point. > One thing this can let us speculate about, though, is when Cawti knew > she > was pregnant. The E.P.T. joke aside, that's exactly the sort of thing > that a > witch would be paid to tell a person. Cawti is nowhere near as adept as > Vlad, but I'd imagine she's dabbled in witchcraft. I'd be surprised if > she > hadn't picked up enough of the craft, simply by virtue of helping Vlad > out, > to know she was pregnant. Certainly, if she suspected she'd be likely to > hire a witch to find out for certain. Whether she'd tell Vlad what she > learned would be a different matter, given the storyline in Tekla. Don't we know that Cawti is a witch? She helps Vlad find Mellar in _Jhereg_, right? Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Mon Jan 24 08:35:37 2005 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:35:37 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: She is around Sethra and sethra might have decided it would be in Vlads best interest to have a baby but that the child needed to wait a little. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Landin [mailto:marklandin at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:29 AM To: Scott Schultz Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: duh! > Cawti is nowhere near as adept as > Vlad, but I'd imagine she's dabbled in witchcraft. Ok, Cawti may not be skilled enough to alter her own pregnancy, but other may be ... either witches, or sorcerors. I guess I giving her more credit than was warranted. :) From mklahn at mac.com Mon Jan 24 08:46:49 2005 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:46:49 -0600 Subject: duh! (spoily) In-Reply-To: <16ee270e0501240828360b0946@mail.gmail.com> References: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> <1a2101c50230$f04274a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <16ee270e0501240828360b0946@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3785402.1106585209633.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Monday, January 24, 2005, at 10:34AM, Mark Landin wrote: >> Cawti is nowhere near as adept as >> Vlad, but I'd imagine she's dabbled in witchcraft. > >Ok, Cawti may not be skilled enough to alter her own pregnancy, but >other may be ... either witches, or sorcerors. I guess I giving her >more credit than was warranted. :) I believe that it says in _Yendi_ that Cawti is a skilled witch, as Morrolan "ruptures" her vital organs w/ sorcery, which "should have put her into shock". IIRC, Vlad is not surprised by that, and credits it to her skill as a witch. I agree, she may not be as skilled as Vlad (who, I've always thought, is quite adept, as he can improvise teleportation spells of something _to him_, even though they are on different planes of existence. I think that puts him at quite a high skill level, as even using sorcery it's harder to teleport something/someone to yourself rather than away from yourself>), she's still good enough to do moderately difficult things. So, I think it's safe to assume that if she can prevent major organ failure from throwing her own body into shock, that she could tell if she were pregnant. Damn. Now I'll have to re-read Teckla & Phoenix and keep in mind that she knows she's pregnant and see how that falls out. Matthew From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Jan 24 08:57:20 2005 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:57:20 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050124165720.GA12677@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> IMHO we're straining at gnats here. Given that Cawti is in the simultaneous throes of a revolution and an ugly divorce, it'd be quite easy to miss the fact that your were pregnant for quite a while. 'Skill and ability to percieve' is often trumped by 'not paying attention.' And even if she did notice or simply suspect, she might have decided to keep some of her options private by not telling him. Bear in mind, too, that first pregnancies can be a lot less obvious, both to the person who's preganant and the outside observer. Given the time scale, Cawti could easily be 3-4 months pregnant by the time Vlad takes off with neither of them having noticed. Occams razor, yadda, yadda. -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Jan 24 09:21:29 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:21:29 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Landin [mailto:marklandin at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:16 AM > To: Casey Rousseau > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: duh! > calculating all these dates quite a bit trickier. (We MUST assume, > however, that even witchcraft cannot produce a "virgin birth", or an > "in vitro" fertilization ... it still takes two to tango, even in > Drageara) Why must we make that assumption? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 24 09:36:00 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:36:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050124162944.7946.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050124162944.7946.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Scott Schultz wrote: > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > I liked Kiera's comments about the iron will of his mother and the good > looks of his father. The first may be a hint to Cawti to be more > flexible, say if Vlad ever comes back, and the second is a new light on > Vlad. I thought the "iron will" was (at least in part) in reference to Cawti's keeping Vlad in the dark etc. Just now the comment reminds me of the Paarfiad - perhaps _FHYA_ in particular, when Khaavren says "we'll have sons pretty as their mother" or somesuch. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 24 09:48:16 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:48:16 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050124165720.GA12677@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <1aad01c5023c$e254d1b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Bear in mind, too, that first pregnancies can be a lot less obvious, >both to the person who's preganant and the outside observer. Given >the time scale, Cawti could easily be 3-4 months pregnant by the >time Vlad takes off with neither of them having noticed. Not to be too indelicate, but if Cawti is an average woman with an average menstrual cycle then she would have noticed it after the first month. She might dismiss the first missed event as an aberration brought on by emotional stress. This is reasonably common in the real world and she was one of the leaders of the Revolution at the time AND having some serious marital problems. IMO, the second "miss" would have her using whatever means were at her disposal to verify the truth of the matter. It's perfectly plausible for her to have conceived shortly before Tekla but to not know the confirmed truth of the matter until sometime shortly afterwards. Occam's Razor would, in fact, be our defense against speculation about her having abnormal periods or other strange mcguffins to explain how she couldn't know she was pregnant. The real question is whether Cawti is enough of a witch to "feel" the pregnancy immediately or whether it's something she'd have to actively try to detect. From marklandin at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 09:51:34 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:51:34 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16ee270e05012409512ea2d817@mail.gmail.com> > > > calculating all these dates quite a bit trickier. (We MUST assume, > > however, that even witchcraft cannot produce a "virgin birth", or an > > "in vitro" fertilization ... it still takes two to tango, even in > > Drageara) > > Why must we make that assumption? Because if we don't, this whole thread is no fun. :) From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 24 09:51:28 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:51:28 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050124165720.GA12677@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050124165720.GA12677@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:57:20 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > IMHO we're straining at gnats here. Given that Cawti is in the > simultaneous throes of a revolution and an ugly divorce, it'd be > quite easy to miss the fact that your were pregnant for quite a > while. 'Skill and ability to percieve' is often trumped by 'not > paying attention.' And even if she did notice or simply suspect, > she might have decided to keep some of her options private by not > telling him. Or to finding the right time to announce the blessed event to the father. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Jan 24 09:54:04 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:54:04 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Landin [mailto:marklandin at gmail.com] > > > > > calculating all these dates quite a bit trickier. (We MUST assume, > > > however, that even witchcraft cannot produce a "virgin birth", or an > > > "in vitro" fertilization ... it still takes two to tango, even in > > > Drageara) > > > > Why must we make that assumption? > > Because if we don't, this whole thread is no fun. :) Oh I don't know. It might be interesting to speculate on the mechanics (metaphysics?), but I see your point. From marklandin at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 09:57:23 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:57:23 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16ee270e050124095727077fc4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:54:04 -0500, Grady Brandt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Landin [mailto:marklandin at gmail.com] > > > > > > > calculating all these dates quite a bit trickier. (We MUST assume, > > > > however, that even witchcraft cannot produce a "virgin birth", or an > > > > "in vitro" fertilization ... it still takes two to tango, even in > > > > Drageara) > > > > > > Why must we make that assumption? > > > > Because if we don't, this whole thread is no fun. :) > > Oh I don't know. It might be interesting to speculate on the mechanics > (metaphysics?), but I see your point. Agreed, but I think that would be a separate thread! > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 24 10:03:05 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! Message-ID: <200501241803.j0OI35am022827@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > Or to finding the right time to announce the blessed event to the father. Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? Over a cup of klava at Vallabar's? During her daring rescue of Vlad while he's being attacked by fifteen of the seventeen Houses (the Issola wouldn't think it proper, and the Teckla wouldn't bother)? Or, to be really soap operaish, how's about right before Vlad, who's been hired to kill some teckla of a human sprat, sticks a stilleto into him, and Cawti dashes in front of the blade with a cry of "He's your...!". (Which could turn into tragic drama, depending on the outcome.) Okay, perhaps not. :) Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From s1burns at ucsd.edu Mon Jan 24 10:51:17 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:51:17 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <200501241803.j0OI35am022827@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050124185123.OJBU23615.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:03 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: duh! Howard Brazee wrote: > Or to finding the right time to announce the blessed event to the father. Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? Over a cup of klava at Vallabar's? During her daring rescue of Vlad while he's being attacked by fifteen of the seventeen Houses (the Issola wouldn't think it proper, and the Teckla wouldn't bother)? Or, to be really soap operaish, how's about right before Vlad, who's been hired to kill some teckla of a human sprat, sticks a stilleto into him, and Cawti dashes in front of the blade with a cry of "He's your...!". (Which could turn into tragic drama, depending on the outcome.) Okay, perhaps not. **************************************************************************** ************** Vlad doesn't do *work* on humans..... Shawn, picking nits since 1977. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 24 11:14:40 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:14:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050124185123.OJBU23615.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050124185123.OJBU23615.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > > Or, to be really soap operaish, how's about right before Vlad, who's been > hired to kill some teckla of a human sprat, [...] > > Vlad doesn't do *work* on humans..... > > Shawn, picking nits since 1977. Yes, and Vlad doesn't do work at all any more. Unless "soap-operaish" is a get-out-of-logic-free card, as I've heard is in fact the case... From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 24 11:22:12 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! Message-ID: <200501241922.j0OJMCam002328@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > > > > Or, to be really soap operaish, how's about right before Vlad, who's been > > hired to kill some teckla of a human sprat, [...] > > > > Vlad doesn't do *work* on humans..... > > > > Shawn, picking nits since 1977. > > Yes, and Vlad doesn't do work at all any more. Unless "soap-operaish" is > a get-out-of-logic-free card, as I've heard is in fact the case... Yes, yes. I was being silly, of course. Though, we cannot have a _Last Contract_ unless he does go back to *work*, I suppose. And I've always been under the impression that soap opera's have no logic. :) Besides, there are exceptions to every rule, no? (Hell, just look at English!) :) Chris From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 24 11:31:30 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:31:30 -0800 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <1cb301c5024b$4e0c2a30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Yes, and Vlad doesn't do work at all any more. Unless "soap-operaish" is >a get-out-of-logic-free card, as I've heard is in fact the case... Vlad may be in semi-retirement but I'd say the conclusion of Orca shows that he's perfectly willing to do "work" if it can be shown to be in his best interests. I won't be surprised if, upon returning to Adrilankha, he discovers that certain habits are harder to break than he anticipated. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 24 11:46:18 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:46:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1cb301c5024b$4e0c2a30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1cb301c5024b$4e0c2a30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >Yes, and Vlad doesn't do work at all any more. Unless "soap-operaish" is > >a get-out-of-logic-free card, as I've heard is in fact the case... > > Vlad may be in semi-retirement but I'd say the conclusion of Orca shows that > he's perfectly willing to do "work" if it can be shown to be in his best > interests. I won't be surprised if, upon returning to Adrilankha, he > discovers that certain habits are harder to break than he anticipated. If he's not paid it's not work, is it? More like a hobby or an art or a way of life. Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I suppose... From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 24 11:52:09 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:52:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! Message-ID: <200501241952.j0OJq9am005422@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > If he's not paid it's not work, is it? More like a hobby or an art or a > way of life. Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I suppose... Heh. Where once it was "no discounts, even to friends", now all his work is done free! "Assassinate two, get a third killed free!" No, I didn't get enough sleep last night. Why? ;) Chris From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Jan 24 11:58:36 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:58:36 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > > Philip Hart wrote: > > If he's not paid it's not work, is it? More like a hobby or an art or a > > way of life. Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I suppose... > > Heh. Where once it was "no discounts, even to friends", > now all his work is done free! > It's not free. It's charity. From pereillo at optonline.net Mon Jan 24 12:01:22 2005 From: pereillo at optonline.net (Dr. Kathleen Pereillo) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:01:22 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002101c5024f$79ee75f0$6500a8c0@norman> > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 2:46 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: duh! > > > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > > >Yes, and Vlad doesn't do work at all any more. Unless "soap-operaish" > is > > >a get-out-of-logic-free card, as I've heard is in fact the case... > > > > Vlad may be in semi-retirement but I'd say the conclusion of Orca shows > that > > he's perfectly willing to do "work" if it can be shown to be in his best > > interests. I won't be surprised if, upon returning to Adrilankha, he > > discovers that certain habits are harder to break than he anticipated. > > If he's not paid it's not work, is it? More like a hobby or an art or a > way of life. Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I suppose... Ah, but perhaps now he is to be paid in "a different coin" (a la his conversation with Virt in _Dragon_) :D K- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005 From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 24 12:05:11 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:05:11 -0700 Subject: duh! References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grady Brandt" To: "'Chris Olson - SunPS'" ; <> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:58 PM Subject: RE: duh! > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > If he's not paid it's not work, is it? More like a hobby or an art or a > > > way of life. Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I suppose... > > > > Heh. Where once it was "no discounts, even to friends", > > now all his work is done free! > > > > It's not free. It's charity. > Does that mean he can claim it as a deduction on his taxes? I wonder how many he can claim. . . . Jeff G. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 24 12:52:56 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:52:56 -0700 Subject: Pollution Message-ID: If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the interregnum? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From daveg at frost.he.net Mon Jan 24 12:56:55 2005 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: from "Howard Brazee" at Jan 24, 2005 01:52:56 PM Message-ID: <1106600215.5171@frost.he.net> I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is pollution. Did I miss something? Dave > > If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years > of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the interregnum? > > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 24 13:00:34 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:00:34 -0800 Subject: "Work" and the New Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <21b701c50257$bf819cc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >If he's not paid it's not work, is it? More like a hobby or an art or a >way of life. Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I suppose... *heh* Well, ignoring discussions about how literal the euphemism "work" should be taken, the important thing about "now Vlad" is that he's undergone an important thematic change. Originally, he was basically a thug for hire. A smart, attractive, intelligent and dashing thug for hire but still a thug for hire. Morally speaking he was an evil person no matter how much we, the readers, might actually like his personality and adventures. Vlad the Thug found himself broken and re-forged on the anvil of Tekla. The following years have tempered him and hammered out most of the moral flaws in his character. Sure, he's still capable of doing "work" when it suits him, but now he does it in the name of a cause. He's become Vlad the Rogue, joining the ranks of Robin Hood, Captain Scarlett, The Grey Mouser, Kiera the Thief and other lovable scoundrels who live in the grey areas of morality but who we cheer for anyway because they follow their own sort of honorable code. Even when doing entirely selfish things, they do them primarily to people who deserve to have selfish immoral things done to them. As if that weren't enough to set him on the path of legend, he's even acquired a legendary blade of his own that punctuates his dual nature as the immoral murderer, harbinger of death, who is simultaneously the protector of all of those ordinary people who don't even know that they need protecting. It will be interesting to see what happens when Cawti and Noish-pa finally meet Reforged Vlad. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 24 13:00:02 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:00:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years > of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the interregnum? I think a standard riposte would be, maybe the new Orb is hybrid. I think Paarfi would mention noticeable differences in the overcast, and I continue to think a significant loss of sunlight would have a strong effect on agriculture and hence society. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Jan 24 13:00:24 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:00:24 +0100 Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Howard Brazee" >If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years >of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the interregnum? I don't see it as pollution caused by using sorcery in everyday use, but as a direct effect of (one of the, don't remember which) Sea of Chaos. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 24 13:09:05 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:09:05 -0700 Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: <1106600215.5171@frost.he.net> References: <1106600215.5171@frost.he.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:56:55 -0800 (PST), wrote: > > I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is pollution. > Did I miss something? > > Dave Check out: http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 24 13:14:29 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:14:29 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <7E808C36.4DBA141F.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/2005 3:05:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff Gibbons" writes: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Grady Brandt" >To: "'Chris Olson - SunPS'" ; <> >Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:58 PM >Subject: RE: duh! > > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] >> > >> > Philip Hart wrote: >> > > If he's not paid it's not work, is it? ?More like a hobby or an art or >a >> > > way of life. ?Hmm, there's such a thing as "volunteer work" I >suppose... >> > >> > Heh. ?Where once it was "no discounts, even to friends", >> > now all his work is done free! >> > >> >> It's not free. It's charity. >> > > >Does that mean he can claim it as a deduction on his taxes? I wonder how >many he can claim. . . . > >Jeff G. > He pays off the Pheonix guards so he doesn't have to pay taxes period... :o) -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 24 13:16:12 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:16:12 -0500 Subject: Pollution Message-ID: <5728E724.170C2C3E.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/2005 3:56:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, daveg at frost.he.net writes: > >I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is pollution. >Did I miss something? > >Dave I vaguely remember something about that, but I can't remember where. -C > > >> >> If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years ? >> of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the interregnum? >> >> -- >> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ >> > > From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Jan 24 13:32:24 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:32:24 -0500 Subject: Pollution Message-ID: Isn't something mentioned in _Phoenix_ about there being no overcast due to the nature of Greenaere? > -----Original Message----- > From: daveg at frost.he.net [mailto:daveg at frost.he.net] > > I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is pollution. > Did I miss something? > > Dave > > > > > > If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years > > of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the > interregnum? > > > > -- > > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > From daveg at frost.he.net Mon Jan 24 13:51:06 2005 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:51:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: from "Grady Brandt" at Jan 24, 2005 04:32:24 PM Message-ID: <1106603466.1289@frost.he.net> Yes, but apparently the only reference to the pollution comment is in the intro to Dzurlord. I'd always assumed the orange sky had been put in place as a part of the original Jennoine experiment. Dave > > Isn't something mentioned in _Phoenix_ about there being no overcast due to > the nature of Greenaere? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: daveg at frost.he.net [mailto:daveg at frost.he.net] > > > > I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is pollution. > > Did I miss something? > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > If the overcast is a pollution as a result of two hundred thousand years > > > of sorcery, then has the rate of pollution gone up since the > > interregnum? > > > > > > -- > > > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 24 13:57:37 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:57:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: <5728E724.170C2C3E.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <5728E724.170C2C3E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/2005 3:56:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, daveg at frost.he.net writes: > > > > >I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is pollution. > >Did I miss something? > > > >Dave > I vaguely remember something about that, but I can't remember where. AFB, but I suspect Khaavren makes some comment about the Overcast's cast lessening at the coast. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Mon Jan 24 14:13:25 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:13:25 -0500 Subject: Pollution Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:58 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Pollution > > > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/24/2005 3:56:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, > daveg at frost.he.net writes: > > > > > > > >I don't remember anything in the books saying the overcast is > pollution. > > >Did I miss something? > > > > > >Dave > > I vaguely remember something about that, but I can't remember where. > > AFB, but I suspect Khaavren makes some comment about the Overcast's cast > lessening at the coast. I was actually just wondering last night if there was an appreciable change in the local overcast depending on the population density or the density of sorcery. I don't recall ever reading anything about that. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 24 14:19:23 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:19:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > > > > AFB, but I suspect Khaavren makes some comment about the Overcast's cast > > lessening at the coast. > > I was actually just wondering last night if there was an appreciable change > in the local overcast depending on the population density or the density of > sorcery. I don't recall ever reading anything about that. I meant, Khaavren was at the coast well into the Interregnum and he mentioned something about a lessening cast as a function of time. From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Jan 24 18:54:43 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:54:43 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <0CF10AD0.57DFE47A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41F56EA3.14694.14D71A65@localhost> On 24 Jan 2005 at 10:25, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ok, if you haven't read Orca, please do not read this unless you want > to ruin things for yourself... > > S > O > O > O > . > . > S > P > O > L > I > E > R > > Ok, I read _Orca_ three times now. On the very last page, Kiera writes > to Cawti saying it was nice to see her and Vlad Norathar. WHAT?! > During the "Interludes," I got that Cawti was pregnant, or so I > thought, and the first 2 times I read the book, I tho ugh maybe it was > a typo. Then I realized that Norathar was not mentioned at all in the > book. Then I remembered the time. Vlad has been gone for about 2 > years. Unless Easterners have a long gestation, that baby is almost 2 > years old, depending on when Vl ad knocked her up. They were on the > rocks, so when did they do stuff? Unless it was make up sex and Vlad > didn't feel like sharing. Anyway, I was shocked when that realization > dawned on me. Anyone els get that when they read it? > My brain is fried with the ecstasy of a snow day and I can't remember which book it was that Vlad asks Loiosh if Rocza is pregnant because she's acting odd. Could this be a clue as to Cawti's onset of pregnancy (or whatever the term is)? M mr1 at rcosta.comMichele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005 From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Jan 24 18:54:45 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:54:45 +0100 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <41F56EA3.14694.14D71A65@localhost> Message-ID: >From: "Michele" >My brain is fried with the ecstasy of a snow day and I can't >remember which book it was that Vlad asks Loiosh if Rocza is >pregnant because she's acting odd. Could this be a clue as to >Cawti's onset of pregnancy (or whatever the term is)? > >M > You mean Cawti turned subvertive pinko (i e started acting odd) because she was pregnant? Well, that's one theory... ;) /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From asr at ufl.edu Mon Jan 24 19:37:40 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:37:40 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:14:29 EST." <7E808C36.4DBA141F.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <200501250337.j0P3beaA231360@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:14:29 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com said: > He pays off the Pheonix guards so he doesn't have to pay taxes period... :o) Isn't that what taxes -are-? Protection racket to the gov't? - Allen S. Rout From kcr at midsouth.rr.com Mon Jan 24 19:44:20 2005 From: kcr at midsouth.rr.com (Kevin Raybould) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:44:20 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <200501250337.j0P3beaA231360@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <200501250344.j0P3iNlv007127@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> ==> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:14:29 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com said: > He pays off the Pheonix guards so he doesn't have to pay taxes > period... :o) > Isn't that what taxes -are-? Protection racket to the gov't? > - Allen S. Rout Yeah, cause we all know how the mob builds roads, sewers, schools, etc with your protection money ... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.822 / Virus Database: 560 - Release Date: 12/22/2004 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 24 21:11:19 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:11:19 EST Subject: duh! Message-ID: <8d.1f1f3c6f.2f272ef7@aol.com> On 24 Jan 2005 at 10:25, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ok, if you haven't read Orca, please do not read this unless you want > to ruin things for yourself... > > . > S > P > O > L > I > E > R > > > > > > > > > Michele wrote on Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:54:43 -0500 >My brain is fried with the ecstasy of a snow day and I can't >remember which book it was that Vlad asks Loiosh if Rocza is >pregnant because she's acting odd. Could this be a clue as to >Cawti's onset of pregnancy (or whatever the term is)? Hi, "'Loiosh, Rocza seems funny. Is she pregnant?' 'Huh? No, boss. At least, I don't think so, I mean, the way things work--' 'Never mind. What is it, then?' 'Well, you know she's been a little closer to Cawti than I have, so, I mean--' 'Oh, I get it, All right.' The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 9, page 278. Hmmm, Vlad is a witch too. Could some part of Vlad know that there was someone around that was pregnant? I think the following is a clue. Or maybe it is a clue that someone wanted to become pregnant. "I stared at the ceiling a while longer. It was made of beaded ceiling board, and Cawti had painted it a very pale green. 'Green?' I had said at the time. 'It represents growth and fertility,' she had explained. 'Ah ha,' I had said and we went on to other things. Now it just looked green." The Book of Jhereg, Teckla, Chapter 7, pages 381-382. Bye. Linda G. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Jan 25 06:13:26 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:13:26 -0500 Subject: Pollution Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > > > > > > AFB, but I suspect Khaavren makes some comment about the Overcast's > cast > > > lessening at the coast. > > > > I was actually just wondering last night if there was an appreciable > change > > in the local overcast depending on the population density or the density > of > > sorcery. I don't recall ever reading anything about that. > > > I meant, Khaavren was at the coast well into the Interregnum and he > mentioned something about a lessening cast as a function of time. Ah, yes. Then I guess I'll have to reread everything to treasure hunt for the answer to my question. Such a shame. The things I have to do to satisfy my curiosity. ;) From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Jan 25 06:16:30 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:16:30 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: asr at ufl.edu [mailto:asr at ufl.edu] > > ==> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:14:29 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com said: > > > He pays off the Pheonix guards so he doesn't have to pay taxes period... > :o) > > > Isn't that what taxes -are-? Protection racket to the gov't? > > - Allen S. Rout Taxes seem to be spent more on keeping assorted officials well stocked on toys though. At least if they're bribes then you know the money is being spent on what you want it to be spent on. ;) From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 06:27:18 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:27:18 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:16:30 -0500, Grady Brandt wrote: > Taxes seem to be spent more on keeping assorted officials well stocked on > toys though. At least if they're bribes then you know the money is being > spent on what you want it to be spent on. I've heard that the difference between an honest politician and a dishonest one is that the dishonest one stays bought. He is selling his word and if he changes his mind, the value of what he has to sell goes down. Meanwhile we elect an honest politician who promises us X, he can change his mind and give us Y. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Jan 25 06:41:58 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:41:58 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:16:30 -0500, Grady Brandt > wrote: > > > Taxes seem to be spent more on keeping assorted officials well stocked > on > > toys though. At least if they're bribes then you know the money is being > > spent on what you want it to be spent on. > > I've heard that the difference between an honest politician and a > dishonest one is that the dishonest one stays bought. He is selling his > word and if he changes his mind, the value of what he has to sell goes > down. Meanwhile we elect an honest politician who promises us X, he can > change his mind and give us Y. > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ I heard it the other way 'round. The honest ones stay bought. The sentiment is the same though. ----------------------------------------------------- I'm always amazed that people will actually choose to sit in front of the television and just be savaged by stuff that belittles their intelligence. -Alice Walker, writer (1944- ) From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Tue Jan 25 07:16:47 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:16:47 -0800 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> I was re-reading ISSOLA last night and a couple of things occurred to me: 1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have begun an affair with Vlad. 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. She mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that disbanding that order was a mistake. Sorry if I'm covering familiar ground but I'm new to the list. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 25 07:40:10 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:40:10 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <087601c502f4$275f9b20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I've heard that the difference between an honest politician and a >dishonest one is that the dishonest one stays bought. Actually, you've got that reversed. An "honest" politician is one who "stays bought". In other words, all politicians are for sale. It's just a question of whether they honor their commitments to the special interests that purchase them or if they shift allegiance with the wind. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jan 25 07:45:27 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:45:27 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> References: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41F66997.1030309@email.ers.usda.gov> Timothy Scott wrote: > 1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have > begun an affair with Vlad. > I got the impression Vlad might have liked to begin an affair with Teldra, actually (-; > 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. > She mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that > disbanding that order was a mistake. > I can't see that, myself. Vlad's an ephemeral, comparatively; wouldn't seem to be worth her time to train him for that career. Also, the Lavodes seem heavily into sorcery, and there's no evidence Sethra has given Vlad any sorcerous training. It's not out of the question that Sethra--or others--have been training Vlad for some other sort of career, though. And Sethra doesn't hesitate to call on Vlad for pretty important jobs as it is, but that seems to be mostly that she thinks he can do them, and the list of people she knows who can seems to be fairly short. Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jan 25 07:48:37 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:48:37 -0500 Subject: Pollution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41F66A55.8040303@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >I think Paarfi would mention noticeable differences in the overcast, and >I continue to think a significant loss of sunlight would have a strong >effect on agriculture and hence society. > > > But just how significant is it? I get the impression that folks can tell where the Furnace is in the sky, and that argues to me that the overcast is light, if unbroken. Snarkhunter From asr at ufl.edu Tue Jan 25 07:58:39 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:58:39 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:16:47 PST." <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200501251558.j0PFwdaA228674@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:16:47 -0800, Timothy Scott said: > 1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have begun an > affair with Vlad. I think that she'd be horrified at the notion. How amazingly rude to his wife. Love him, certainly. She loves everyone. - Allen S. Rout From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 08:13:00 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:13:00 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> References: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:16:47 -0800, Timothy Scott wrote: > > 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. She > mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that > disbanding that order was a mistake. His expected lifespan might be an issue here. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 25 08:20:28 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:20:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <200501251558.j0PFwdaA228674@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> References: <200501251558.j0PFwdaA228674@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 asr at ufl.edu wrote: @> > 1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have @> > begun an affair with Vlad. @> @> I think that she'd be horrified at the notion. How amazingly rude to his @> wife. She isn't his wife anymore by this point, remember. We're not exactly given a complete rundown of matrimonial customs on Dragaera amongst humans, but their relationship is clearly over after Phoenix. It may be that they'll have some other kind of relationship in the future, but on the other hand, maybe not. So, no, it wouldn't be rude at all. Which isn't to say that the original poster is right, just that that isn't a valid objection. ;) From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 25 08:24:08 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:24:08 -0800 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <094401c502fa$4bee11a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have >begun an affair with Vlad. There's no way to know at this point, but I'd disagree. The key to understanding Teldra and her relationships is Vlad's comment that she "genuinely liked people". As an Issola she would naturally deal with everyone according to their station and their personality. The story in Issola is simply one that thrusts Vlad and Teldra together socially in a way that they would otherwise never have come together. As two of the "support troops" who are there to assist the big guns like Morrolan, Sethra and Verra it's not surprising that they'd develop a special cameraderie. I think it's a mistake to project that out into a romance, though. I can guess that if Vlad was interested in a cross-species romance that Lady Teldra could easily have been the object of his affection, but he's never shown any interest in that. In fact, he expressed a disinterest in the past, claiming that he'd tried a Dragearan "tag" on occasion out of curiosity but hadn't enjoyed the experience. For her part, Lady Teldra would likely have considered a cross-species romance to be rather improper and certainly potentially damaging to her position in Morollan's household. The Empress succeeds at having an Easterner lover because she's the Empress and she can get away with a bit of scandal. Someone in Teldra's position could not afford to be quite so liberal. Also, keep in mind that while God Slayer is imbued with some of Teldra's personality, it's NOT Teldra (despite Vlad's insistence on calling it Lady Teldra). Teldra is vaporized. When Vlad speaks about the Great Weapons "loving" their owners he's only peripherally talking about feelings that Lady Teldra herself might have had. Sethra implies that God Slayer will "awaken" at some point and show some personality of its own. That's the point where we'll know for sure how much of the original Lady Teldra has been imbued into God Slayer and maybe have a clue as to what Teldra might or might not have felt about Vlad. >2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. She >mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that >disbanding that order was a mistake. I suppose it's a possibility. He's certainly qualified for it at this point. As far as that goes, most of Vlad's Dragaeran acquaintances seem to end up acting as "proxy Lavodes". You could make an argument that Sethra has already reformed the Lavodes but just hasn't put the governmental stamp of approval on them. Of course, she may have her own reasons for doing things that way. The scandal of the previous Lavodes aside, Morollan, Aliera, et al have their own ambitions and goals. If Sethra was to say "I'm reforming the Lavodes, would you join?" I'd think that the reaction from most of the principals of the Vladiad would be "I'm honored, but I'm working on being Warlord/Court Wizard/Lord of Chutney/etc..." As things sit now, she's got nearly the same organization, skillsets and power to draw upon without any of the hassles of being an officially recognized body. Whether Morrolan, Aliera and others understand that they are "unofficial Lavodes" is an open question and one that they probably wouldn't think much about without some reason to do so. In any case, it's certainly no coincidence that Sethra has managed to surround herself with friends who all wield Great Weapons. >Sorry if I'm covering familiar ground but I'm new to the list. This list is a pretty friendly place and generally pretty amenable to discussing things that have been discussed before. Welcome aboard. From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 08:22:06 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:22:06 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <087601c502f4$275f9b20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <087601c502f4$275f9b20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:40:10 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: >> I've heard that the difference between an honest politician and a >> dishonest one is that the dishonest one stays bought. > > Actually, you've got that reversed. An "honest" politician is one who > "stays > bought". In other words, all politicians are for sale. It's just a > question > of whether they honor their commitments to the special interests that > purchase them or if they shift allegiance with the wind. That's what I first heard, but I like to modify this. While all politicians have to give up some integrity, it's not quite black and white. Virtually *all* politicians can be persuaded to change their minds for issues important enough to them. They do what they think is right. But this hurts the value of "bought" politicians. Some politicians are more likely to "do the right thing" than others. GW successfully* campaigned that he was of the "stay the course" type president, and his opponent was "wishy washy". The Democrats responded that GW didn't know when to change his mind, while JK was willing to change his mind with further information. We buy politicians with votes as well as with money. An honest politician can be persuaded to change his mind. A bought politician has to answer to his owners first. *Actually, I'm of the opinion that this election wasn't decided by such issues. GW got rural counties in all states, and JK got urban counties in all states. Rural people think fast-talking city folk are as trustworthy as used car salesmen, and Urban people think slow talking country folk are stupid. When a country boy visits his city wife's family, they wonder why he was so rude as to not talk, while he's wondering why they were so rude as to not let him have a word in edgewise. People voted for the politician with the style they were comfortable with. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 08:23:21 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:23:21 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <41F66997.1030309@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <41F66997.1030309@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:45:27 -0500, Ken Koester wrote: > Also, the > Lavodes seem heavily into sorcery, and there's no evidence Sethra has > given Vlad any sorcerous training. What do we really know about the Lavodes and their mission? I bet at one time they had pure warriors and such. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From ike at manor.org Tue Jan 25 08:40:38 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:40:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Overpowering Vlad/Possible spoilers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been AFK and missed this, Sorry! To recap, in responding to JC's worry about Vlad's being too powerful I mentioned that Morrolan was killed, but the incident I was referring to wasn't in Issola, but my brain isn't coughing up the title this happened in...yendi maybe? Anyway, a Jhereg that the Jhereg want dead has gotten himself an invite to Castle Black. The Jhereg successfully lure Morrolan away from the castle and successfully kill him, and if not for quick intervention of our heroes would be walking the Paths. I apologise if it's become obscure, but my point is that if the Jhereg can kill Morrolan, at least temporarily, then I'm sure they could kill Vlad permenantly. It'll just be a bit more tricky now, but no more I think than killing M. --Brother Ike On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, J C wrote: > ...until Aliera or someone felt like healing him. Yes, it's true, they have > a GODDESS on their side. But nevertheless, if the *Jenoine* can't kill > someone so that it's permanent (without even trying, that is--I'm sure their > measures to prevent revivification would take a hell of a lot to break > down). > > I mean, Vlad's arm couldn't be touched by either Aliera, Sethra OR Verra > after that weapon hit him. But Morrolan, who is *killed*, is able to be > brought back in time. I guess Morrolan got really lucky they weren't using > a fatal version or intensity of the weapon that hit Vlad. But then, maybe > Blackwand took preventative measures to ensure that what happened to Vlad > didn't happen to Morrolan. And if there's anything that has the best chance > of successfully doing something against a Jenoine, it's either a Deity or a > GW. > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Brother Ike > To: J C > Subject: Re: Spare Copy of Gypsy? > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:07:00 -0800 (PST) > > --- J C wrote: > > > Issola: Awesome story, but I couldn't help getting worried about Vlad > > becoming an over-powered character. I'm sure Steve will find ways to > nerf > > (reduce) the powers of GS so that he's still vulnerable, thus putting > Issola > > back to 10. > > I occasionally see references to this, and I can't help but thinking that, > well, Morrolan got killt quite nicely despite Blackwand...it just takes more > planning, something that the Jhereg seem to be good at. And to paraphrase > badly, a dagger in the back would still greatly put a downer on Vlad's day. > > Yours in snow, > > --Brother Ike > > ===== > Brother Ike > Unix SysAdmin > Have R00T, Will Travel > My thoughts alone... > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jan 25 08:41:38 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:41:38 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Klein writ (mostly. I added an attrib): > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 asr at ufl.edu wrote: > @>[missed attrib] Timothy Scott said: > @> > 1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra > @> > might have begun an affair with Vlad. > @> > @> I think that she'd be horrified at the notion. How > @> amazingly rude to his wife. > > She isn't his wife anymore by this point, remember. We're not exactly > given a complete rundown of matrimonial customs on Dragaera amongst > humans, but their relationship is clearly over after Phoenix. > It may be that they'll have some other kind of relationship in the > future, but on the other hand, maybe not. Their marriage may be finito, but their relationship is far from it. > So, no, it wouldn't be rude at all. Which isn't to say that > the original poster is right, just that that isn't a valid > objection. ;) Oh, I'd say Teldra would still consider it impolite. Certainly, (an admittedly younger, callow) Vlad has voiced serious prejudice against such a liaison. One might also wonder just exactly what Teldra knows of VN. She's more than capable of withholding that particular bit of knowledge from Vlad. It would be impolite of her to inform him and it would, I think, put a damper on any romance independent of the small matters of race and previous marriage. (Note, my reading of the climax of _Issola_ does not indicate that Vlad would necessarily discover this particular secret even if she was aware of it.) Casey From ike at manor.org Tue Jan 25 08:51:02 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:51:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050124185123.OJBU23615.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > > > > Or, to be really soap operaish, how's about right before Vlad, who's been > > hired to kill some teckla of a human sprat, [...] > > > > Yes, and Vlad doesn't do work at all any more. Unless "soap-operaish" is > a get-out-of-logic-free card, as I've heard is in fact the case... So now you're saying that the father is actually Vlad's long lost good twin brother? I could buy that... --Brother Ike From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Jan 25 08:51:49 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:51:49 +0000 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: With Regards to Vlad Taltos Lavode: I think it could be a very interesting possibility--but it would involve changing Vlad's blood chemistry around. I think it would be easier to use Vlad, if he were to be used in such a manner, as a kind of "free agent". Kind of like the Sorceress in Green or the Necromancers are. So there's the Lavodes. Can't get the job done? Call in one or more of your spectacularly talented/equipped allies. However, Steve has been making hints that there's a Lavode in the works. If she were smart, she'd use Morrolan. I think she said that "he's" not ready yet. We could of course be referring to Teric or whoever it was that changed gender, being reborn or something, and still having to change gender into either a male or female, but that's rather absurd, don't you think? Anyway, also with regards to Vlad asking Loiosh if Rocza were pregnant, I think Steve's a bastard. I totally didn't get that clue (wait, maybe I did, way back when and forgot it) that it was probably because Cawti were pregnant. Also, I wonder if the lifespan of sperm could be extended via witchcraft to include a longer time between copulation and actual conception. Either way, it probably wouldn't be a matter of more than a handful of hours or even a couple days. Jon From ike at manor.org Tue Jan 25 08:55:26 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:55:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Martin Wohlert wrote: > >From: "Michele" > >My brain is fried with the ecstasy of a snow day and I can't > >remember which book it was that Vlad asks Loiosh if Rocza is > >pregnant because she's acting odd. Could this be a clue as to > >Cawti's onset of pregnancy (or whatever the term is)? > > > >M > > > > You mean Cawti turned subvertive pinko (i e started acting odd) because she > was pregnant? Well, that's one theory... ;) > > /Mrtn Close...Vlad asked if Rocza was pregnant because she (Rocza) was acting funny. I don't remember the source, but I do remember the reference... anyone? --Brother Ike From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 09:02:38 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:02:38 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: References: <200501251558.j0PFwdaA228674@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:20:28 -0500 (EST), John Klein wrote: > She isn't his wife anymore by this point, remember. We're not exactly > given a complete rundown of matrimonial customs on Dragaera amongst > humans, but their relationship is clearly over after Phoenix. It may be > that they'll have some other kind of relationship in the future, but on > the other hand, maybe not. I see no reason to assume anything about the state of their marriage. We do know that Dragaerans are more casual about sex, and that's where they live. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 09:06:04 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:06:04 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <094401c502fa$4bee11a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <094401c502fa$4bee11a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:24:08 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Also, keep in mind that while God Slayer is imbued with some of Teldra's > personality, it's NOT Teldra (despite Vlad's insistence on calling it > Lady > Teldra). Teldra is vaporized. When Vlad speaks about the Great Weapons > "loving" their owners he's only peripherally talking about feelings that > Lady Teldra herself might have had. Sethra implies that God Slayer will > "awaken" at some point and show some personality of its own. That's the > point where we'll know for sure how much of the original Lady Teldra has > been imbued into God Slayer and maybe have a clue as to what Teldra > might or might not have felt about Vlad. Their society seemed to have different feelings about casual sex and romance - as illustrated with their prostitution. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 25 09:09:03 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:09:03 -0700 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:51:49 +0000, J C wrote: > However, Steve has been making hints that there's a Lavode in the > works. If she were smart, she'd use Morrolan. I think she said that > "he's" not ready yet. We could of course be referring to Teric or > whoever it was that changed gender, being reborn or something, and still > having to change gender into either a male or female, but that's rather > absurd, don't you think? Morrolan seems to be his own man a bit too much. Allowing a devastating war because he has a rule about his castle being safe is an example of this. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 25 09:13:44 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:13:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: @> > She isn't his wife anymore by this point, remember. We're not exactly @> > given a complete rundown of matrimonial customs on Dragaera amongst @> > humans, but their relationship is clearly over after Phoenix. @> > It may be that they'll have some other kind of relationship in the @> > future, but on the other hand, maybe not. @> @> Their marriage may be finito, but their relationship is far from it. Well, let's put it this way: the relationship they had is over. Any other relationship which they may have in the future hasn't started yet. Vlad is not currently attached. @> > So, no, it wouldn't be rude at all. Which isn't to say that @> > the original poster is right, just that that isn't a valid @> > objection. ;) @> @> Oh, I'd say Teldra would still consider it impolite. Certainly, (an @> admittedly younger, callow) Vlad has voiced serious prejudice against such a @> liaison. Does she know this? He didn't say it in her presence. In fact, I don't think he said it to anyone but his faithful parro^h^h^h^h^hjhereg, although I can't prove that. @> One might also wonder just exactly what Teldra knows of VN. She's more than @> capable of withholding that particular bit of knowledge from Vlad. It would @> be impolite of her to inform him and it would, I think, put a damper on any @> romance independent of the small matters of race and previous marriage. @> (Note, my reading of the climax of _Issola_ does not indicate that Vlad @> would necessarily discover this particular secret even if she was aware of @> it.) It would be extraordinary if she weren't aware of it, assuming Cawti has visited Morrolan at least once in Vlad's absence. Whether she would consider that a reason to stay away from him is a bit murkier; why would it be rude to have sex with someone who had a child from a previous marriage? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 25 09:13:38 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: References: <094401c502fa$4bee11a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > Their society seemed to have different feelings about casual sex and > romance - as illustrated with their prostitution. Note this may be class-dependent - consider Pel's trick towards the end of _TPG_. And in any case, T would take V's culture into account. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 25 09:16:45 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:16:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: References: <200501251558.j0PFwdaA228674@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: @> > She isn't his wife anymore by this point, remember. We're not exactly @> > given a complete rundown of matrimonial customs on Dragaera amongst @> > humans, but their relationship is clearly over after Phoenix. It may be @> > that they'll have some other kind of relationship in the future, but on @> > the other hand, maybe not. @> @> I see no reason to assume anything about the state of their marriage. I do. Vlad as much as says at the end of Phoenix that whatever he and Cawti had, they don't have it anymore. And then he goes into the woods for a couple of years. So there may be some legal things to tie up, assuming their marriage had any kind of legal blessing to begin with, but I can't see a reasonable interpretation of that text that doesn't indicate that their marriage is over. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Jan 25 09:36:55 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:36:55 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > >1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have > >begun an affair with Vlad. > > There's no way to know at this point, but I'd disagree. The key to > understanding Teldra and her relationships is Vlad's comment that she > "genuinely liked people". As an Issola she would naturally deal with > everyone according to their station and their personality. The story in > Issola is simply one that thrusts Vlad and Teldra together socially in a > way > that they would otherwise never have come together. As two of the "support > troops" who are there to assist the big guns like Morrolan, Sethra and > Verra > it's not surprising that they'd develop a special cameraderie. I think > it's > a mistake to project that out into a romance, though. I can guess that if > Vlad was interested in a cross-species romance that Lady Teldra could > easily > have been the object of his affection, but he's never shown any interest > in > that. In fact, he expressed a disinterest in the past, claiming that he'd > tried a Dragearan "tag" on occasion out of curiosity but hadn't enjoyed > the > experience. > > For her part, Lady Teldra would likely have considered a cross-species > romance to be rather improper and certainly potentially damaging to her > position in Morollan's household. The Empress succeeds at having an > Easterner lover because she's the Empress and she can get away with a bit > of > scandal. Someone in Teldra's position could not afford to be quite so > liberal. I'd disagree on the basis that I don't believe Teldra would want to follow that particular breakup. I don't think she would believe it prudent to dabble in the emotions involved, even after some years. He's living in the woods after all, it's not likely that he's gotten everything straight and "moved on" as they say since he hasn't come back to society yet. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 25 09:46:39 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:46:39 -0800 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <09f901c50305$d2b452c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I'd disagree on the basis that I don't believe Teldra would want to follow >that particular breakup. I don't think she would believe it prudent to >dabble in the emotions involved, even after some years. He's living in the >woods after all, it's not likely that he's gotten everything straight and >"moved on" as they say since he hasn't come back to society yet. Well, the living in the woods bit is more of a reaction to the larger part of the Jhereg wanting him dead than from unresolved marital issues. If he wasn't on the lam, he'd be living in his county or duchy or whatever official sinecure it is that the Empress awarded to him. In a way, being on the run was probably a blessing in disguise. Vlad seems the sort who would likely have sunken into a (possibly drunken) depression given his sort of unresolvable problems and no particular vocation to keep him busy. One of the things I'm looking forward to when the story returns to the "present time" (I'm assuming the upcoming story is a "past" tale about the return of Savn to his family) is finding out how Noish-pa has been doing as a Count. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 25 09:54:44 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:54:44 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:45:27 EST." <41F66997.1030309@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <200501251754.j0PHsjeU022356@vice-grips.mit.edu> spoilers are here I don't remember what made me come to this conclusion, but I had also decided it was a pretty good likelihood that Sethra was grooming Vlad to become a Lavode.We do know that she explictly referred to the Lavode-in-training as "he", which eliminates Tanzendra (unless the Dragaeran to English translation is being deceptive, but I don't think Brust would really do that to us quite like that). Vlad may be a short-lived Easterner, but he's also Kieron and Aliera's brother, an old soul from the founding of the Empire. Sethra's known him for a long, long time. Plus, a great weapon could potentially extend his life span. Heck, maybe Sethra even had a hand in seeing that this particular soul ended up in this particular body, because being a Easterner/Jhereg/Assassin/outcast/great-weapon-wielder/etc/etc/etc was what was needed to forge the soul into what she/the empire needs. She was, after all, once offered godhood. > Timothy Scott wrote: > > > 1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have > > begun an affair with Vlad. > > > I got the impression Vlad might have liked to begin an affair with > Teldra, actually (-; > > > 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. > > She mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that > > disbanding that order was a mistake. > > > I can't see that, myself. Vlad's an ephemeral, comparatively; wouldn't > seem to be worth her time to train him for that career. Also, the > Lavodes seem heavily into sorcery, and there's no evidence Sethra has > given Vlad any sorcerous training. > > It's not out of the question that Sethra--or others--have been training > Vlad for some other sort of career, though. And Sethra doesn't hesitate > to call on Vlad for pretty important jobs as it is, but that seems to be > mostly that she thinks he can do them, and the list of people she knows > who can seems to be fairly short. > > Snarkhunter > From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Jan 25 10:07:49 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:07:49 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > >I'd disagree on the basis that I don't believe Teldra would want to > follow > >that particular breakup. I don't think she would believe it prudent to > >dabble in the emotions involved, even after some years. He's living in > the > >woods after all, it's not likely that he's gotten everything straight and > >"moved on" as they say since he hasn't come back to society yet. > > Well, the living in the woods bit is more of a reaction to the larger part > of the Jhereg wanting him dead than from unresolved marital issues. If he > wasn't on the lam, he'd be living in his county or duchy or whatever > official sinecure it is that the Empress awarded to him. In a way, being True, please excuse my brain fart. I still like the rest of my opinion though. :) From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Jan 25 09:48:31 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:48:31 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41F6401F.4115.47EB47@localhost> On 25 Jan 2005 at 16:51, J C wrote From: "J C" To: dragaera at dragaera.info BCC to: Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Date sent: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:51:49 +0000 > Anyway, also with regards to Vlad asking Loiosh if Rocza were > pregnant, I think Steve's a bastard. I totally didn't get that clue > (wait, maybe I did, way back when and forgot it) that it was probably > because Cawti were pregnant. > > Also, I wonder if the lifespan of sperm could be extended via > witchcraft to include a longer time between copulation and actual > conception. > > Either way, it probably wouldn't be a matter of more than a handful of > hours or even a couple days. > > Jon > Or... some marsupial genes added to the "human" (ie Easterner) mix could allow for a delay between conception and embryonic development. Perhaps Cawti's high stress levels triggered the delay until after Vlad left. Do we know for certain that it is Vlad's child? She could just like the name. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Jan 25 10:11:30 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:11:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <200501251811.j0PIBUam022014@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> > >1) I got the impression that, if she hadn't died, Teldra might have > >begun an affair with Vlad. Well, I rather doubt this. But if so, can you blame Vlad? I mean, Lady Teldra is on the same Glompable level that Daymar is. Yowie! Long-time Lady Teldra Fan, Chris From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Jan 25 10:11:08 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:11:08 +0000 Subject: Hey Steve Message-ID: Did skilled writing always come natural to you? Or did you have to work at it? Cause I would give my left nut to write like you do. Of course, I'm allergic to nuts, so it's not much of a sacrifice, but...wait, you weren't thinking I meant my left TESTICLE did you?? That's just crazy, man... Jon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 25 10:52:14 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:52:14 -0700 Subject: Hey Steve References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "J C" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Hey Steve > > Did skilled writing always come natural to you? Or did you have to work at > it? > > Cause I would give my left nut to write like you do. Of course, I'm > allergic to nuts, so it's not much of a sacrifice, but...wait, you weren't > thinking I meant my left TESTICLE did you?? That's just crazy, man... > > Jon > > > A love ballad involving a "little hairy testicle" comes to mind, but in the interest of the fleeting remainders of my sanity, it was squashed. Jeff G. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Jan 25 10:51:34 2005 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:51:34 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <41F66997.1030309@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <41F66997.1030309@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20050125185134.GA15861@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 10:45:27AM -0500, Ken Koester wrote: > >2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. > >She mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that > >disbanding that order was a mistake. > I can't see that, myself. Vlad's an ephemeral, comparatively; wouldn't > seem to be worth her time to train him for that career . . . > It's not out of the question that Sethra--or others--have been training > Vlad for some other sort of career, though . . . Sethra says explicitly that Vlad has been or is being trained for something. I don't have the exact reference at hand, sorry. -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 11:08:39 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:08:39 EST Subject: Hey Steve Message-ID: <190.3819fcd5.2f27f337@aol.com> In a message dated 01/25/2005 1:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Log0n5150 at hotmail.com writes: ----- Original Message ----- From: "J C" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Hey Steve > > Did skilled writing always come natural to you? Or did you have to work at > it? > > Cause I would give my left nut to write like you do. Of course, I'm > allergic to nuts, so it's not much of a sacrifice, but...wait, you weren't > thinking I meant my left TESTICLE did you?? That's just crazy, man... > > Jon > > > Damn!!! I lost mine in a combine accident in ' 83 and was hoping yours was up for auction!!!! John D. Barbato, OD From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 11:17:52 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:17:52 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <26E9E55E.1A1886F0.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 12:16:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, John Klein writes: > >I do. Vlad as much as says at the end of Phoenix that whatever he and >Cawti had, they don't have it anymore. And then he goes into the woods for >a couple of years. So there may be some legal things to tie up, assuming >their marriage had any kind of legal blessing to begin with, but I can't >see a reasonable interpretation of that text that doesn't indicate that >their marriage is over. > Besides, Vlad is changing. He probably still won't believe in "her revolution," but he says he won't kill for money anymore (kill, yes, but not be paid in gold, only satisfaction). With his changing, they might end up being changed together, or Cawti could go backwards in her thinking, and Kelly might want her to kill someone somewhere eventhough he doesn't think assassination is right. Ok, now it's turning in to a "Soap." -C -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 11:25:40 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:25:40 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 12:48:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: > >Do we know for certain that it is Vlad's child? ?She could just like the >name. > >M > You know, we've been thinking on the same wave length. Must be a New England thing. I didn't want to be the one to say it might not be Vlad's. On speculation, who do we think it could be? -C >Michele Riccio >mr1 at rcosta.com > > From marklandin at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 11:33:53 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:33:53 -0600 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <16ee270e050125113321882294@mail.gmail.com> Kragar? She wouldn't even notice he was there... On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:25:40 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/25/2005 12:48:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: > > > >Do we know for certain that it is Vlad's child? She could just like the > >name. > > > >M > > > You know, we've been thinking on the same wave length. Must be a New England thing. I didn't want to be the one to say it might not be Vlad's. On speculation, who do we think it could be? > > -C > > > >Michele Riccio > >mr1 at rcosta.com > > > > > From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 11:40:15 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:40:15 EST Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <103.59813224.2f27fa9f@aol.com> In a message dated 01/25/2005 2:37:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, marklandin at gmail.com writes: You know, we've been thinking on the same wave length. Must be a New England thing. I didn't want to be the one to say it might not be Vlad's. On speculation, who do we think it could be? > > -C > > > >Michele Riccio > >mr1 at rcosta.com > > > > > Aw man!!! I don't even want to consider that. It would kill him. John D. Barbato, OD From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 11:47:01 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:47:01 -0600 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:11:08 +0000, J C wrote: > > Did skilled writing always come natural to you? Or did you have to work at > it? I've been wondering the same thing. Are there interviews out there where this question has already been addressed? As an ermerging writer myself, I'm very interested in the nuts and bolts of the process if that's been addressed already somewhere. I'm not a big Stephen King fan but I do recognize that the man can write. I went through his book "On Writing" and was entrigued by the nuts and bolts of his work pattern. I was interested to see, for example, that when he's writing a first draft, he'll work every day until it's done and then give that project six weeks rest so that when he approaches it again for the first major edit, it will be through reasonably fresh eyes. Stuff like that really adds to my understanding of the craft. I'm also interested in the tools of the trade. For myself, I've used Texturizer (essentially a notepad-like text app on steroids), Word, the Open Office variant, and FrameMaker (as I use Frame at work and Frame excels at long, text-based documentation). I'm familiar with the Windows OS but am intrigued with the thought of Linux or even OS X for writing platforms (the latter especially in light of yesterdays post at /. about an app called SubEthaEdit). Finally, I'm interested in things as basic as QWERTY vs Dvorak. I seem to remember that Piers Anthony was a Dvorak adherent back in the day and anything that can minimize wear and tear on my hands is something work checking into, IMO. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . johne cook wisconsin, usa johne.cook at gmail.com http://www.phywriter.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 25 11:52:03 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:52:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: @> >Do we know for certain that it is Vlad's child? ?She could just like the @> >name. @> @> You know, we've been thinking on the same wave length. Must be a New @> England thing. Hmm. I'm in Boston and I haven't considered this. @> I didn't want to be the one to say it might not be Vlad's. On @> speculation, who do we think it could be? It's possible that it's not, clearly. On the other hand, it would be... slightly unbalanced of Cawti to name that kid Vlad under other circumstances. (Imagine having this conversation with someone: "I'd like to name the kid after my ex-husband.") Further, remember Noish-pa's prophecy about holding Vlad's kid in his arms; obviously there could be /another/ kid, but then we're just heading real deep into soap terrain. I'd buy it if it were a Paarfi novel, but in the main Vlad storyline? Eh. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 25 12:02:24 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, John Klein wrote: > (Imagine having this conversation with someone: "I'd like to name the > kid after my ex-husband.") Why not? > Further, remember Noish-pa's prophecy about holding Vlad's kid in his > arms; AFB, but isn't the prophecy that N-p would hold a grandchild? Perhaps he's adopted Cawti, or perhaps V will raise the child as his, so... > obviously there could be /another/ kid, but then we're just > heading real deep into soap terrain. I'd buy it if it were a Paarfi > novel, but in the main Vlad storyline? Eh. True. Anyay, I'm gonna stick with the straightforward version here. Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Jan 25 12:35:51 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:35:51 +0100 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Philip Hart ... >Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... Devera! ;) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From lqmiller at ev1.net Tue Jan 25 12:29:51 2005 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:29:51 -0600 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: References: <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <21922450-6EE4-11D9-A714-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050125142753.01906118@mail.ev1.net> At 09:13 AM 1/25/2005 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: >On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:16:47 -0800, Timothy Scott > wrote:] >>2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. She >>mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that >>disbanding that order was a mistake. > >His expected lifespan might be an issue here. Could be that spoiler spoiler spoiler in "Issola" has changed that, in which case it would just be a question of whether Sethra could've seen that coming. Or it could be that Sethra is thinking in terms of effectiveness rather than lifespan when picking Lavodes. Vlad might well get in on that basis. From lqmiller at ev1.net Tue Jan 25 12:32:48 2005 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:32:48 -0600 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <200501251754.j0PHsjeU022356@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050125143210.018b5df8@mail.ev1.net> At 12:54 PM 1/25/2005 -0500, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >I don't remember what made me come to this conclusion, but I had also >decided it was a pretty good likelihood that Sethra was grooming Vlad >to become a Lavode.We do know that she explictly referred to the >Lavode-in-training as "he", which eliminates Tanzendra (unless the >Dragaeran to English translation is being deceptive, but I don't think >Brust would really do that to us quite like that). And then there's that other thing about Tanzendra, too, as of the third Piro book. Louann From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 25 13:01:53 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:01:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Philip Hart wrote: @> > (Imagine having this conversation with someone: "I'd like to name the @> > kid after my ex-husband.") @> @> Why not? If Cawti was still in a relationship with whoever, that would probably be fairly awkward. On the other hand, I suppose a sufficient application of knives and/or sex could resolve that issue, at least temporarily. @> > Further, remember Noish-pa's prophecy about holding Vlad's kid in his @> > arms; @> @> AFB, but isn't the prophecy that N-p would hold a grandchild? That sounds right. @> Perhaps he's adopted Cawti, or perhaps V will raise the child as his, @> so... Could be. But then we're heading into obfuscation-land again. It's entirely possible, but it doesn't seem to line up right with what's already happened; it would feel like a trick just for the sake of a trick, not something that came naturally out of the storyline. Although, yes, that's entirely a matter of opinion. @> > obviously there could be /another/ kid, but then we're just @> > heading real deep into soap terrain. I'd buy it if it were a Paarfi @> > novel, but in the main Vlad storyline? Eh. @> @> True. Anyay, I'm gonna stick with the straightforward version here. @> Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... Kieron, obviously. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 25 13:13:58 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:13:58 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:32:48 CST." <5.2.1.1.0.20050125143210.018b5df8@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <200501252113.j0PLDxm4023560@vice-grips.mit.edu> > At 12:54 PM 1/25/2005 -0500, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > >I don't remember what made me come to this conclusion, but I had also > >decided it was a pretty good likelihood that Sethra was grooming Vlad > >to become a Lavode.We do know that she explictly referred to the > >Lavode-in-training as "he", which eliminates Tanzendra (unless the > >Dragaeran to English translation is being deceptive, but I don't think > >Brust would really do that to us quite like that). > > And then there's that other thing about Tanzendra, too, as of the third > Piro book. > > Louann > oh yeah, I knew there was a reason she had really really been ruled out. (I think I've just blocked out the second and third Piro books.) From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 25 13:34:14 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:34:14 -0800 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0b8f01c50325$9dcd7c10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> @> True. Anyay, I'm gonna stick with the straightforward version here. @> Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... >Kieron, obviously. Not unless Kieron has had a change of heart. The reason he's still hanging out in the Paths of the Dead after all these centuries is that he's waiting for the appropriate time to return in person. He doesn't have any intention of being reincarnated. He's Dragaera's answer to King Arthur. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Tue Jan 25 13:40:35 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:40:35 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > @> True. Anyay, I'm gonna stick with the straightforward version here. > @> Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul > from... > > >Kieron, obviously. > > Not unless Kieron has had a change of heart. The reason he's still hanging > out in the Paths of the Dead after all these centuries is that he's > waiting > for the appropriate time to return in person. He doesn't have any > intention > of being reincarnated. He's Dragaera's answer to King Arthur. Could Verra have had a bad day on the Dragaeran equivalent of April 1st? From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Jan 25 13:54:04 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:54:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <0b8f01c50325$9dcd7c10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0b8f01c50325$9dcd7c10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: @> @> True. Anyay, I'm gonna stick with the straightforward version here. @> @> Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... @> @> >Kieron, obviously. @> @> Not unless Kieron has had a change of heart. The reason he's still hanging @> out in the Paths of the Dead after all these centuries is that he's waiting @> for the appropriate time to return in person. He doesn't have any intention @> of being reincarnated. He's Dragaera's answer to King Arthur. Wish I had Taltos in front of me so I could hit you with the exact quote, but Kieron told Aliera that she should return his greatsword to him or he would have to come out of the Paths to take it. She said that might be exactly what she wanted. Later, in Dragon, she gave it away. She has not returned it to him, which means he's probably coming for it. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 25 14:01:25 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:01:25 -0800 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0bae01c50329$69d2eae0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >> for the appropriate time to return in person. [Kieron] doesn't have any >> intention of being reincarnated. He's Dragaera's answer to King Arthur. >Could Verra have had a bad day on the Dragaeran equivalent of April 1st? Hehe. Continuing the soap opera theme of the day: [Somewhen in the Paths of the Dead] Kieron: I can't BELIEVE she gave my sword away after I warned her not to! I'm going out there to teach her a lesson she won't soon forget! Verra: Without the orb or a divine transfusion, the only way you're getting out of here is as a vampire. Unless, of course, you finally get reincarnated. Kieron: Damn! [18 months after the birth of Vlad Norathar, Cawti is invited to Castle Black] Aliera: Cawti, how good go to see you! You're doing well? Cawti: As well as can be expected given how "business" is going. I'm a bit worried about little Vlad. He's healthy but he still hasn't started talking yet. Aliera: Hmmm.. I'm afraid I don't have much experience with the development of Easterner children. Still, I'm sure that he'll speak when he has something to say. [Aliera and Cawti smile at each other] Aliera: Oh, Cawti, you remember Sethra the Younger? Sethra the Younger[glowering distastefully]: A pleasure. [Seeing STY, Vlad Norathar pulls his thumb from his mouth and reaches out his hands toward her] Vlad Norathar: Mine! From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Jan 25 13:43:27 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:43:27 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41F6772F.15132.11F0A27@localhost> On 25 Jan 2005 at 14:52, John Klein wrote > > On the other hand, it would > be... slightly unbalanced of Cawti to name that kid Vlad under other > circumstances. (Imagine having this conversation with someone: "I'd > like to name the kid after my ex-husband.") Perhaps she hasn't told anyone the child is not Vlad's and she didn't want to be caught out by naming him, say - Fred. It could also be a cunning plan to take over the Duchy (? or whatever parcel of land Vlad was granted) from Noish-pa by virtue of assumed heredity. I'm not sure I buy the theory of the child not being Vlad's - I just figured it was a possibility that could be thrown into the mix. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From asr at ufl.edu Tue Jan 25 15:25:12 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:25:12 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:20:28 EST." Message-ID: <200501252325.j0PNPCaA220074@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:20:28 -0500 (EST), John Klein said: > She isn't his wife anymore by this point, remember. We're not exactly > given a complete rundown of matrimonial customs on Dragaera amongst > humans, but their relationship is clearly over after Phoenix. Bull hockey. Physical separation is the most trivial way they could be parted. Clearly miserable, clearly in pain. Clearly over only to quitters, which describes neither of them. Cawti would be the one more likely to desert the relationship and she's got good reasons to keep it firmly in mind. - Allen S. Rout From bryann at bryann.net Tue Jan 25 15:51:38 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:51:38 -0600 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200501252350.j0PNoVQ1019417@bryann.net> * * * * SPOILERS * * * * > Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... My brother has an idea about this; I believe I've shared it with you all before, but here it is again: Kieron. Why? It works like this: Kieron gave Aliera his sword in the Paths of the Dead in Taltos, and told her not to "give it to another or let it be taken from" her. If she does, he says "I'll come and take it." She promptly turns around and gives it to Sethra the Younger, who plans to invade the East with it. So where is Kieron? Perhaps he kept his word, and came back to get his sword. And, assuming he doesn't came back as the Undead, maybe he came back via reincarnation. But as who? "Kieron the Conquerer. Father of the Dragaeran Empire, elder of the proudest of lines of the House of the Dragon, hero of myth and legend, first of the great Dragaeran butchers of the Easterners" comes back to reclaim his sword from a Dragonlord anxious to use it in precisely the manner he himself once used it, reincarnated as an Easterner and son of the (soul)brother who betrayed him: VN. Bryan From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Jan 25 19:40:16 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:40:16 EST Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <92.1f0620c6.2f286b20@aol.com> Scott Schultz wrote on Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:01:25 -0800 >Hehe. Continuing the soap opera theme of the day: >[Somewhen in the Paths of the Dead] >Kieron: I can't BELIEVE she gave my sword away after I warned her not to! >I'm going out there to teach her a lesson she won't soon forget! >Verra: Without the orb or a divine transfusion, the only way you're getting >out of here is as a vampire. Unless, of course, you finally get >reincarnated. Hi, I felt Cawti needed a very good reason to keep the secret. I was so hoping the reason wasn't going to turn out that the secret had Kieron's soul. But these recent threads and a little rereading of Phoenix, Lesson 17... If Cawti *KNEW* when Vlad leaves... Vlad says "'First you tell me--are you coming back to me?' She didn't look away, as I'd expected. Instead she studied me carefully, as one studies a stranger whose mood and meaning one is trying to read from his face. She didn't say anything, which I think was an answer." The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 17, page 384. She had a very good reason. She knew Vlad. She knew what he had just gone through in Teckla and Phoenix to save her. She's standing there looking at Vlad and wanting to tell him. But if she tells him, he won't leave. She knows he won't last long if he stays around. She is trying to save him by not telling him. On Kieron leaving the Paths: Aliera talking to Kieron: "'You may escort us out of the Paths, to make up for your lack of courtesy.' He started to smile, stopped. He said, 'I do not choose to leave again. I have done--' 'Nothing for two hundred thousand years. Isn't that long enough?' The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 15, page 151. Again? Could Aliera be right and Kieron could just escort them out of the Paths? Verra talking about Morrolan: "It is the nature of this place. The living are simply unable to return. Perhaps he can become undead, and leave that way. There are those who have managed this. I believe you know Sethra Lavode, for instance." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 15, page 155. Sethra came to the Paths alive and left undead. Kieron is a shade. There just might be another way for Kieron to leave the Paths besides reincarnation. A baby would not have done much good against Those We Do Not Name. Of course, time does run differently in the Paths. >From the Paths of the Dead. "I meant help of a more practical kind. Those We Do Not Name may become active the instant this Phoenix emerges with the Orb, if, indeed, she does so." ... "Verra said, 'We could send them Kieron the Conqueror. His shade has been been here longer than any other, and I know he would like nothing better than to go forth and engage in battle once more.'" The Paths of the Dead, Chapter the Eighteenth, paperback, page 183. Bye. Linda G. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Wed Jan 26 08:03:09 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:03:09 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > >> for the appropriate time to return in person. [Kieron] doesn't have any > >> intention of being reincarnated. He's Dragaera's answer to King Arthur. > > >Could Verra have had a bad day on the Dragaeran equivalent of April 1st? > > Hehe. Continuing the soap opera theme of the day: > > [Somewhen in the Paths of the Dead] > > Kieron: I can't BELIEVE she gave my sword away after I warned her not to! > I'm going out there to teach her a lesson she won't soon forget! > > Verra: Without the orb or a divine transfusion, the only way you're > getting > out of here is as a vampire. Unless, of course, you finally get > reincarnated. > > Kieron: Damn! > > [18 months after the birth of Vlad Norathar, Cawti is invited to Castle > Black] You missed one a little earlier in the little tyke's life. [4 months after the birth of Vlad Norathar, Cawti is invited to Castle Black] Aliera greets Cawti in the ballroom. Being female, she can't resist the chance to hold a baby (I'm assuming Dragaerans are like humans in this regard, and that it extends to Easterner babies). While she makes delighted cooing noises at the irresistibly cute little assassin, he practices his aim by spitting up in her face. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 08:06:58 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:06:58 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <3A175EAB.386C5AB9.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 2:33:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark Landin writes: >Kragar? She wouldn't even notice he was there... > > Now that's just cold! -C >On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:25:40 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 1/25/2005 12:48:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: >> > >> >Do we know for certain that it is Vlad's child? ?She could just like the >> >name. >> > >> >M >> > >> You know, we've been thinking on the same wave length. Must be a New England thing. I didn't want to be the one to say it might not be Vlad's. On speculation, who do we think it could be? >> >> -C >> >> >> >Michele Riccio >> >mr1 at rcosta.com >> > >> > >> > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 08:13:48 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:13:48 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <3DCBE3F4.2954B0CE.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 2:52:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, John Klein writes: > >It's possible that it's not, clearly. On the other hand, it would be... >slightly unbalanced of Cawti to name that kid Vlad under other >circumstances. (Imagine having this conversation with someone: "I'd like >to name the kid after my ex-husband.") Further, remember Noish-pa's >prophecy about holding Vlad's kid in his arms; obviously there could be >/another/ kid, but then we're just heading real deep into soap terrain. >I'd buy it if it were a Paarfi novel, but in the main Vlad storyline? Eh. > It was just a thought. And were you really born in Mass? Anyway, I did mentioned the idea was heading into Soap territory. It might not be common in Dragaera, but it's common on Earth! -C From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 26 08:15:17 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:15:17 -0800 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <15cb01c503c2$39711c20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Vlad says > "'First you tell me--are you coming back to me?' > She didn't look away, as I'd expected. Instead she studied me carefully, >as one studies a stranger whose mood and meaning one is trying to read from >his face. She didn't say anything, which I think was an answer." >The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 17, page 384. >She had a very good reason. She knew Vlad. She knew what he had just gone >through in Teckla and Phoenix to save her. She's standing there looking at >Vlad and wanting to tell him. But if she tells him, he won't leave. She >knows he won't last long if he stays around. She is trying to save him by >not telling him. Hmmm... Well, as speculation it does fit the idea of Cawti knowing at the point of Vlad's departure. Not neccesarily before that, though. Even with a strained marriage, I can't see why she'd keep it a secret during the preceding storyline. However, I think it's more likely that we list members are giving the books the I Ching treatment. That is, with no new story to talk about, we go over the previous stories, subjecting small details to scrutiny and finding meanings between the lines of what would otherwise be innocuous and straight-forward paragraphs. Yes, the paragraph referenced above could be a hint that Cawti knows her condition and wants to spare Vlad. Based on the preceding story, though, we have no reason to believe that. Rather, we have every reason to take it at face value. That is, the recounting of the final goodbye of two people who have grown apart to the point where they have very little in common any more. I'd chalk this up to "more data required". Until there's reason to believe otherwise, I'd just take that paragraph at face value. IMO, what you're looking at there is not a hidden clue about Cawti's pregnancy. Rather, it's a pretty accurate description of something that Steve felt when his own marriage dissolved. The ring of truth in that one paragraph is simply overwhelming. > [Kieron] started to smile, stopped. He said, 'I do not choose to leave again. I have done--' > 'Nothing for two hundred thousand years. Isn't that long enough?' >The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 15, page 151. >Again? >Could Aliera be right and Kieron could just escort them out of the Paths? That's an interesting reference. I'd never noticed it before. Apparently Kieron CAN leave the Paths if he has a good enough reason to do so. I guess we'll have to wait and see if he decides to come after his sword like he promised. Of course, given the way that time works in the Paths, he might react immediately while Dragaera experiences a couple of centuries of time passing. From melalvai at kemenel.org Wed Jan 26 08:18:01 2005 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:18:01 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > >Bear in mind, too, that first pregnancies can be a lot less obvious, > >both to the person who's preganant and the outside observer. Given > >the time scale, Cawti could easily be 3-4 months pregnant by the > >time Vlad takes off with neither of them having noticed. > > Not to be too indelicate, but if Cawti is an average woman with an average > menstrual cycle then she would have noticed it after the first month. She > might dismiss the first missed event as an aberration brought on by > emotional stress. This is reasonably common in the real world and she was > one of the leaders of the Revolution at the time AND having some serious > marital problems. IMO, the second "miss" would have her using whatever means > were at her disposal to verify the truth of the matter. It's perfectly > plausible for her to have conceived shortly before Tekla but to not know the > confirmed truth of the matter until sometime shortly afterwards. > > Occam's Razor would, in fact, be our defense against speculation about her > having abnormal periods or other strange mcguffins to explain how she > couldn't know she was pregnant. The real question is whether Cawti is enough > of a witch to "feel" the pregnancy immediately or whether it's something > she'd have to actively try to detect. I noticed mostly male voices were weighing in on this (unless I missed some not as obvious female handles). My opinion is that she would know at a minimum of three weeks after conception. Even just missing one month, if there is a discrete, affordable test available, she would go ahead and try to find out. Being extra distracted/ stressed out would only add extra motivation to find out. It is not unheard of to use an EPT even when pregnancy is physically impossible short of divine intervention, even when one is an atheist (hey, maybe some god has something to prove), just for the peace of mind they offer. Rachel From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 26 08:20:46 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:20:46 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: References: <6B748500.79E20AEA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41F7C35E.6020203@earthlink.net> John Klein wrote: >On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >@> >Do we know for certain that it is Vlad's child? She could just like the >@> >name. >@> >@> You know, we've been thinking on the same wave length. Must be a New >@> England thing. > >Hmm. I'm in Boston and I haven't considered this. > > I'm close to Boston, and the thought had crossed my mind. I would be... unhappy... to find out VN's father is a member of Kelly's group we've met before. Maybe I'm easily swayed by Vlad's prejudices... Speaking of the Boston/New England area, I'm reminded of a fantastic dinner I had with various members of this list at the Midwest Grill in Cambridge. Rodizio... Mmmm.... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 08:20:16 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:20:16 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <2D52828E.5A1C9460.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 4:34:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Scott Schultz" writes: > >Not unless Kieron has had a change of heart. The reason he's still hanging >out in the Paths of the Dead after all these centuries is that he's waiting >for the appropriate time to return in person. He doesn't have any intention >of being reincarnated. He's Dragaera's answer to King Arthur. > > > But Aliera did get rid of his sword. He told her he would go get it if she didn't take care of it. I think that was in _Taltos_, but I am not sure, then again, it could be in _Jhereg_. Anyway, I think, if it is him, he wants his sword back. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 08:24:27 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:24:27 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <767578FD.4731AEDA.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/2005 6:51:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bryan Newell" writes: >* >* >* >* >SPOILERS >* >* >* >* > >> Maybe the speculative-minded could figure out who VN got his soul from... > >My brother has an idea about this; I believe I've shared it with you all >before, but here it is again: ?Kieron. > >Why? ?It works like this: > >Kieron gave Aliera his sword in the Paths of the Dead in Taltos, and told >her not to "give it to another or let it be taken from" her. ?If she does, >he says "I'll come and take it." > >She promptly turns around and gives it to Sethra the Younger, who plans to >invade the East with it. > >So where is Kieron? > >Perhaps he kept his word, and came back to get his sword. ?And, assuming he >doesn't came back as the Undead, maybe he came back via reincarnation. ?But >as who? > >"Kieron the Conquerer. ?Father of the Dragaeran Empire, elder of the >proudest of lines of the House of the Dragon, hero of myth and legend, first >of the great Dragaeran butchers of the Easterners" comes back to reclaim his >sword from a Dragonlord anxious to use it in precisely the manner he himself >once used it, reincarnated as an Easterner and son of the (soul)brother who >betrayed him: ?VN. > > > >Bryan > > > Well put! I like it! -C From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Jan 26 08:06:07 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:06:07 -0600 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41F7BFEF.8020005@comcast.net> Schools, roads, hospitals, libraries, sometimes sports arenas, police, firefighters, social programs, our armed services--these are not the toys of assorted officials. I get sick and tired of people whingeing about their taxes because "they earned it, it's their money." Crap. If you don't want a government at all, go live in Montana and be a survivalist and stop using the things government, that is, We the People, that is, your fellow-citizens, gives us. Sheesh. Grady Brandt wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: asr at ufl.edu [mailto:asr at ufl.edu] >> >>==> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:14:29 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com said: >> >> >> >>>He pays off the Pheonix guards so he doesn't have to pay taxes period... >>> >>> >>:o) >> >> >>Isn't that what taxes -are-? Protection racket to the gov't? >> >>- Allen S. Rout >> >> > >Taxes seem to be spent more on keeping assorted officials well stocked on >toys though. At least if they're bribes then you know the money is being >spent on what you want it to be spent on. ;) > > > From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 26 08:45:14 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:45:14 -0800 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <2D52828E.5A1C9460.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <002701c503c6$68e42fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >But Aliera did get rid of his sword. He told her he would go get it >if she didn't take care of it. I think that was in _Taltos_, but I am >not sure, then again, it could be in _Jhereg_. Anyway, I think, if it >is him, he wants his sword back. >-C Oh, no doubt. I'm just saying that Kieron has resisted reincarnation this long, so it seems more likely that he'd come get the sword in person than do it by reincarnating. Kieron and Aliera obviously have a semi-antagonistic relationship. It might very well be that he WILL come get the sword but, in his mind, he'll come on his terms and not just because Aliera gave the sword away just to (in his view) provoke him. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Jan 26 08:37:40 2005 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:37:40 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050126163740.GB18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 11:18:01AM -0500, Rachel wrote: > I noticed mostly male voices were weighing in on this (unless I missed > some not as obvious female handles). My opinion is that she would know > at a minimum of three weeks after conception . . . I know at least one woman who was preparing for a long, stressful bit of excercise (an ascent of Mt. Everest). As the ascent got closer, she needed a recent physical certifying her good health. At that point she was discovered to be pregnant; 4 months if I recall. This was an intelligent woman, in her middle 30s, with one previous child. If I had her permission I'd post her name, (and I'm asking for her permission). It's not common, but it does happen. Various factors can lead to irregular menstruation, including large amounts of stress -- eg, helping lead a revolution or having your marriage fall apart. Put both at once, and it likely gets a lot easier. Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Seems like once every couple of years I hear about some teenager who finds out she's pregnant as the delivery comes up. And now I'll shut up again. :-) -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 26 08:59:42 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:59:42 -0800 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <767578FD.4731AEDA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c503c8$6dffcb70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >[Kieron] reincarnated as an Easterner and son of the (soul)brother who >betrayed him: ?VN. The biggest problem I have with this idea is that Dragaerans are Dragaerans and Easterners are Easterners and never the twain shall meet. We've got a Tolkeinesque dichotomy here where Dragaerans experience one sort of afterlife, while Easterners experience a different sort that is left mostly unrevealed to the reader. The story of Dolivar(?) reincarnating as an Easterner is given as an exception that was caused by some rather extreme metaphysical Karma. (Though, we may eventually find out that Verra had some hand in things, given Vlad's character development over the last few books.) IMO, Kieron would never be reincarnated as an Easterner. Whatever Karma it was that "punished" Dolivar by reincarnating him as an Easterner would reincarnate the Founder of the Empire and its greates hero in an appropriate vessel. Probably a Dragonlord or a Dzur and likely an heir to the throne or someone in a position to become Warlord eventually. On souls, the more interesting question is not where Baby V's soul comes from. It's "What will happen to Vlad's soul when he dies?" Will it continue the Karmic cycle as an Eastern soul forevermore? Will it return to the Paths? Some combination where it works off its Karmic burden as an Eastern soul, then returns to the Paths for a proper reincarnation? From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jan 26 08:59:29 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:59:29 -0600 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: <41F7BFEF.8020005@comcast.net> References: <41F7BFEF.8020005@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050126165929.GF28444@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 10:06:07AM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > Schools, roads, hospitals, libraries, sometimes sports arenas, police, > firefighters, social programs, our armed services--these are not the > toys of assorted officials. I get sick and tired of people whingeing > about their taxes because "they earned it, it's their money." Crap. If > you don't want a government at all, go live in Montana and be a > survivalist and stop using the things government, that is, We the > People, that is, your fellow-citizens, gives us. Well, I for one get tired of being "asked" for contributions to schools, hospitals, libraries, sports arenas, fire insurance, and "the poor" at gunpoint. Yes, gunpoint. And moving to Montana will not spare me from the federal taxes that go to pay for all of those things. Understand this: the fact that I live in society means that I must *pay* my taxes, but it does *not* require that I, or anyone else, do so without complaint. Complaints about unjust laws and unnecessary tax burdens are a vital and necessary part of politics. To deprive someone of their right to complain about such abuses is to deprive them of their political voice. The last time the American people got fed up with being taxed, we held a tea party to discuss the matter. Taxes are far heavier today than they were at that time. You do not have to listen to people who feel they are being taxed too heavily, but it might be a good idea. I, however, do not have to listen to you complain about other people's complaints. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From scs at di.org Wed Jan 26 09:00:28 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:00:28 -0500 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. Message-ID: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> There are plenty of pleasant places where I can discuss current American politics, but I'd much prefer this list be restricted to Dragaera. Kelly's politics, yeah, that's fair game. One man's opinion. -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 09:18:47 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:18:47 -0500 Subject: slightly OT (wasRE: duh!) Message-ID: <5ED8A303.42B3F768.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 11:18:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Rachel" writes: >> >> Not to be too indelicate, but if Cawti is an average woman with an >average >> menstrual cycle then she would have noticed it after the first >month. While this is on the topic of "normal menses,' I'd like to point out, that a woman can have 3-4 regular cycles even though she is pregnant. -Crystal From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 26 09:19:52 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:19:52 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <15cb01c503c2$39711c20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Scott Schultz wrote: > However, I think it's more likely that we list members are > giving the books the I Ching treatment. That is, with no > new story to talk about, we go over the previous stories, > subjecting small details to scrutiny and finding meanings > between the lines of what would otherwise be innocuous and > straight-forward paragraphs. I think it's a tribute to how well written Steve's books are that there is room for us to speculate on these details. [insert my standard discussion of intentio auctoris v. lectoris => operis here]* Casey *If you're unfamilliar with it, search for Eco in the mailing list archive for pointers. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 26 09:20:12 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:20:12 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050126163740.GB18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 11:18:01AM -0500, Rachel wrote: [snipage] > > some not as obvious female handles). My opinion is that she > > would know at a minimum of three weeks after conception . . . > > I know at least one woman who [discovered she was 4 months] > pregnant... [snip] > Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Seems like once every couple of years > I hear about some teenager who finds out she's pregnant as the > delivery comes up. FWIW, when I initially brought up this line, I did say it was unlikely that she would not know. > And now I'll shut up again. :-) Me too. C. From scs at di.org Wed Jan 26 09:09:07 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:09:07 -0500 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera Message-ID: <20050126170907.GA18811@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Was Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 08:59:42AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: . . . [snip] . . . > On souls, the more interesting question is not where Baby V's soul comes > from. It's "What will happen to Vlad's soul when he dies?" Will it continue > the Karmic cycle as an Eastern soul forevermore? Will it return to the > Paths? Some combination where it works off its Karmic burden as an Eastern > soul, then returns to the Paths for a proper reincarnation? We've never seen an Easterner re-incarnated as anything but we have seen Dragaerans re-incarned as both Dragaerans and Easterners (OK, one Easterner -- but given the small number of reincarnations we know of, one is not a disproportionately small number). And we've never seen an Easterner reincarnated as a Dragaeran. >From the above, I'd assume that karma on Dragaera works like this: You're re-incarnated repeatedly as a Dragaeran, accumulating good or bad karma along the way. Eventually you get good enough to be promoted to Easterner, and never have to be a Dragaeran again. Steve "with his hands in his pockets, walking away, faux-casually whistling" Simmons -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Jan 26 09:34:53 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:34:53 -0600 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Johne Cook wrote: > Finally, I'm interested in things as basic as QWERTY vs Dvorak. He's using an Avant Stellar[1], configured as QWERTY. I use exactly the same machine. I can't recall if he's used the extra keycaps to move CTRL around to where ghod intended, but I'd not be surprised since he's writing in Emacs using a sprint-mode written by DD-B. Besides not being Dvorak, the keyboard has mechanical action and physical key-click and, in fact, requires a hammer-like finger action. [1]http://cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Jan 26 09:22:17 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:22:17 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <41F7C35E.6020203@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <41F78B79.16798.9CDE22@localhost> On 26 Jan 2005 at 11:20, Jose Marquez wrote > Speaking of the Boston/New England area, I'm reminded of a fantastic > dinner I had with various members of this list at the Midwest Grill in > Cambridge. Rodizio... Mmmm.... > > Jose > I'm still amused by the guy carrying garlic bread on skewers. Think anyone is willing to co-ordinate another meeting? M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Jan 26 09:22:17 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:22:17 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050126163740.GB18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Message-ID: <41F78B79.2756.9CDF17@localhost> On 26 Jan 2005 at 11:37, Steve Simmons wrote Date sent: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:37:40 -0500 From: Steve Simmons To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: duh! > On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 11:18:01AM -0500, Rachel wrote: > > > I noticed mostly male voices were weighing in on this (unless I > > missed some not as obvious female handles). My opinion is that she > > would know at a minimum of three weeks after conception . . . > > I know at least one woman who was preparing for a long, stressful bit > of excercise (an ascent of Mt. Everest). As the ascent got closer, > she needed a recent physical certifying her good health. At that point > she was discovered to be pregnant; 4 months if I recall. This was an > intelligent woman, in her middle 30s, with one previous child. Are we all assuming a completely predictible cycle? Cawti may be somewhat eratic in this respect, so a few weeks or even months late may not clue her in right away. And what about birth control? She may have been using something before she and Vlad were married that persists in her system or threw her cycle off when she stopped taking it - and masked her awareness of the pregnancy. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 09:49:06 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:49:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: RE: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <5D7D4743.15E8F371.00184D6D@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: RE: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:48:40 -0500 Size: 870 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20050126/dfbb037e/attachment.mht From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 26 09:48:35 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:48:35 -0700 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20050126170907.GA18811@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050126170907.GA18811@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:09:07 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > We've never seen an Easterner re-incarnated as anything but we > have seen Dragaerans re-incarned as both Dragaerans and Easterners > (OK, one Easterner -- but given the small number of reincarnations > we know of, one is not a disproportionately small number). And > we've never seen an Easterner reincarnated as a Dragaeran. We have seen an Easterner be revived from the dead though. Have we seen one's soul captured in a Great Weapon? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 09:51:13 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:51:13 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy Message-ID: <29406F4C.53BB887D.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/26/2005 12:22:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: >On 26 Jan 2005 at 11:20, Jose Marquez wrote > > >> Speaking of the Boston/New England area, I'm reminded of a fantastic >> dinner I had with various members of this list at the Midwest Grill in >> Cambridge. Rodizio... Mmmm.... >> >> Jose >> > >I'm still amused by the guy carrying garlic bread on skewers. > >Think anyone is willing to co-ordinate another meeting? ? > >M > >Michele Riccio >mr1 at rcosta.com > > I'm burnt out on coordinating right now (stickers and wedding), but I will certainly attend if someone sets it up! -C From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 10:01:59 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:01:59 -0600 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:34:53 -0600, Corwin Brust wrote: > He's using an Avant Stellar[1], configured as QWERTY. I use exactly the > same machine. I can't recall if he's used the extra keycaps to move > CTRL around to where ghod intended, but I'd not be surprised since he's > writing in Emacs using a sprint-mode written by DD-B. Besides not being > Dvorak, the keyboard has mechanical action and physical key-click and, > in fact, requires a hammer-like finger action. > > [1]http://cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm Excellent. I'd never heard of this beast. Thanks for your reply. I've been looking into the Mac mini but have already tempered that idea with the idea of trying OS X on a Powerbook (seeing that I don't yet have a laptop and am increasingly interested in getting one for writing purposes). As usual, the major sticking points are a) software, and b) price. Still kicking ideas around, still editing in Frame, still debating whether I should give Dvorak a whirl. -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jan 26 10:04:06 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:04:06 -0500 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: Hi Not to start a Mac vs PC war, but I use a Mac and have since 1997. I do all my writing on it. Too bad Adobe discontinued FrameMaker for the Mac. Anyway, I write in xemacs, the new Pages and when I have to, Word. Lots of software too. From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 10:09:04 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:09:04 -0600 Subject: CoH, Greyswandir, and Dragaerans as heroes In-Reply-To: References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: I created a new Energy / Energy Blaster on the Virtue server in the City of Heroes MMORPG last Thursday night. I needed a new name and chose Greyswandir. After one night, I'm surprised at how many people sent tells to me along the lines of "I loved those books" or "Amber rocks". And then for the biggest pleasant surprise of all. I got a tell from a guy who complemented me on my nickname and we commiserated about our love for Roger Zelazny's work. Then, as I was typing my reply, I received this (which was almost identically what I was in the process of typing): "If you like Roger Zelazny, you'll love Stephen Brust". I nearly fell out of my chair. We nittered on for awhile about the congruence of Dragaera and characters in CoH. I told him one of my first characters way back when was a Tazendra character; Scrapper with a Broadsword. We wondered what sort of character Morrolan would be in CoH (I was torn between Controller and Blaster, depending on which attributes you wanted to emphasize). Aliera could be anything, but would have to have Hover. And so on. It was fun conjecture. -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 26 10:11:24 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:11:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. Message-ID: <200501261811.j0QIBOam025763@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Matthew Hunter wrote: > The last time the American people got fed up with being taxed, we > held a tea party to discuss the matter. Taxes are far heavier > today than they were at that time. You do not have to listen to > people who feel they are being taxed too heavily, but it might be > a good idea. While I agree that taxes are a necessary part of any working government, I am FAR more concerned with how those taxes are spent. I heard recently that the U.S. cancelled a contract with Lockheed to build a dozen subs, but still paid them the ~$250M. Um...did I miss something? And of course our taxes have gone up, taxes on corporations have dropped tremendously in the last fifty years--someone must pick up the slack. Chris (Putting his nose where, I'm sure, it isn't wanted) From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 10:17:34 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:17:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: <200501261811.j0QIBOam025763@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050126181734.61633.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > The last time the American people got fed up with > being taxed, we > > held a tea party to discuss the matter. Taxes are > far heavier > > today than they were at that time. You do not > have to listen to > > people who feel they are being taxed too heavily, > but it might be > > a good idea. > > While I agree that taxes are a necessary part of > any working government, I am FAR more concerned with > how those taxes are spent. I heard recently that > the U.S. cancelled a contract with Lockheed to build > a dozen subs, but still paid them the ~$250M. > Um...did > I miss something? Lockheed had to pay it's employees for the r&d they conducted before actually building the subs. Jobs are a good thing... they spread the money around. That said, a little planning on the part of the feds could have helped create much better jobs with $250 million. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Jan 26 10:17:05 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:17:05 -0600 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: <20050126165929.GF28444@infodancer.org> References: <41F7BFEF.8020005@comcast.net> <20050126165929.GF28444@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <41F7DEA1.7000409@comcast.net> You don't want to listen to me? Another reason to drop out of society, disappear from the Government's radar, and dissociate yourself from our civilization. Good. Go. Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 10:06:07AM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > > >>Schools, roads, hospitals, libraries, sometimes sports arenas, police, >>firefighters, social programs, our armed services--these are not the >>toys of assorted officials. I get sick and tired of people whingeing >>about their taxes because "they earned it, it's their money." Crap. If >>you don't want a government at all, go live in Montana and be a >>survivalist and stop using the things government, that is, We the >>People, that is, your fellow-citizens, gives us. >> >> > >Well, I for one get tired of being "asked" for contributions to >schools, hospitals, libraries, sports arenas, fire insurance, >and "the poor" at gunpoint. > >Yes, gunpoint. > >And moving to Montana will not spare me from the federal taxes >that go to pay for all of those things. > >Understand this: the fact that I live in society means that I >must *pay* my taxes, but it does *not* require that I, or anyone >else, do so without complaint. Complaints about unjust laws and >unnecessary tax burdens are a vital and necessary part of >politics. To deprive someone of their right to complain about >such abuses is to deprive them of their political voice. > >The last time the American people got fed up with being taxed, we >held a tea party to discuss the matter. Taxes are far heavier >today than they were at that time. You do not have to listen to >people who feel they are being taxed too heavily, but it might be >a good idea. > >I, however, do not have to listen to you complain about other >people's complaints. > > > From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 11:18:59 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:18:59 -0700 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. References: <41F7BFEF.8020005@comcast.net> <20050126165929.GF28444@infodancer.org> <41F7DEA1.7000409@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mia McDavid" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:17 AM Subject: Re: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. > You don't want to listen to me? Another reason to drop out of society, > disappear from the Government's radar, and dissociate yourself from our > civilization. Good. Go. > Better do it now while you still can. . . . . Jeff G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 26 11:25:44 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:25:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > There are plenty of pleasant places where I can discuss current > American politics, but I'd much prefer this list be restricted to > Dragaera. > > Kelly's politics, yeah, that's fair game. > > One man's opinion. Yes, but this isn't a democracy. Or is it? Anyway, agreed, and I'm standing right behind you with a bucket of water. From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 11:26:25 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:26:25 -0600 Subject: Test Message-ID: This is only a test. Please disregard. -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jan 26 07:28:56 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:28:56 -0800 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: References: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <1106753336.2394.391.camel@localhost> Actually, it's an anarchy. DDB is the chief anarch. On Wed, 2005-01-26 at 11:25, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > There are plenty of pleasant places where I can discuss current > > American politics, but I'd much prefer this list be restricted to > > Dragaera. > > > > Kelly's politics, yeah, that's fair game. > > > > One man's opinion. > > Yes, but this isn't a democracy. Or is it? > > Anyway, agreed, and I'm standing right behind you with a bucket of water. > From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Jan 26 12:20:12 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:20:12 -0500 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: <1106753336.2394.391.camel@localhost> References: Message-ID: <41F7B52C.18206.13FC8EF@localhost> On 26 Jan 2005 at 7:28, Steve Brust wrote > Actually, it's an anarchy. > > DDB is the chief anarch. > Shouldn't that be "chief anarch and bottle washer" - or does that only hold true for cooks? M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jan 26 10:04:06 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:04:06 -0500 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: Hi Not to start a Mac vs PC war, but I use a Mac and have since 1997. I do all my writing on it. Too bad Adobe discontinued FrameMaker for the Mac. Anyway, I write in xemacs, the new Pages and when I have to, Word. Lots of software too. From lqmiller at ev1.net Wed Jan 26 15:02:41 2005 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:02:41 -0600 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: References: <20050126170907.GA18811@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050126170907.GA18811@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050126170216.01ff1648@mail.ev1.net> At 10:48 AM 1/26/2005 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: >We have seen an Easterner be revived from the dead though. Have we seen >one's soul captured in a Great Weapon? On the contrary. Louann, grinning evilly. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 26 15:18:41 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:18:41 -0800 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050126170216.01ff1648@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <03f401c503fd$5fb1e370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >>We have seen an Easterner be revived from the dead though. Have we seen >>one's soul captured in a Great Weapon? >On the contrary. >Louann, grinning evilly. I admit it, I don't get the gag here. Is this a reference to Vlad having a Dragaeran soul? If so, I don't think that matters. When Vlad was killed by The Sword and The Dagger, didn't he take The Dagger (aka Cawti) out with him? Aliera gave him the choice to revive her or not and he told her to go ahead. That's how I remember things, anyway. If it's a different reference, then pardon my ignorance and please explain. ;-) From books at bofh.com Wed Jan 26 15:56:55 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:56:55 -0700 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <03f401c503fd$5fb1e370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050126170216.01ff1648@mail.ev1.net> <03f401c503fd$5fb1e370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20050126235655.GA24511@bofh.com> On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 03:18:41PM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > >>We have seen an Easterner be revived from the dead though. Have we seen > >>one's soul captured in a Great Weapon? > > >On the contrary. > >Louann, grinning evilly. > > I admit it, I don't get the gag here. Is this a reference to Vlad having a > Dragaeran soul? If so, I don't think that matters. When Vlad was killed by > The Sword and The Dagger, didn't he take The Dagger (aka Cawti) out with > him? Aliera gave him the choice to revive her or not and he told her to go > ahead. That's how I remember things, anyway. It's a typo, and actually something I was thinking about yesterday that annoys me. Loraan. He is killed by Blackwand, and still gets to come back as Undead. This annoys me because: 1) It doesn't strike me as something that a Great Weapon should do 2) It doesn't strike me that Morrollan (sp [1]) would want to do because, after all, Loraan was very uncooperative in giving him the soul of his cousin (and Adron's daughter) and 3) [spoiler space] 3) Because Loraan allowed the Jenonine access to Dragaera. This is not something that the Lords of Judgement appears really pleased about...so why would they allow him to come back as undead? I thought I had on one of my pages something about the only reason they allowed him back was for entertainment. They like to watch Vlad and Loraan made a great for for their daily soap opera, "As the Orb Turns" but can't find it now. It really makes little sense to me, but I suspect that Steven decided not to let that get in the way of telling a good story. -Jot [1] So Mark doesn't yell at me about spelling :) -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Jan 26 19:42:16 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:42:16 EST Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera Message-ID: Hi, Question for Louann somewhere in this post. Steve Simmons wrote on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:09:07 -0500 >Was Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos Lavode/Pregnancy On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 08:59:42AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: >> On souls, the more interesting question is not where Baby V's soul comes >> from. It's "What will happen to Vlad's soul when he dies?" Will it continue >> the Karmic cycle as an Eastern soul forevermore? Will it return to the >> Paths? Some combination where it works off its Karmic burden as an Eastern >> soul, then returns to the Paths for a proper reincarnation? Steve Simmons wrote on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:09:07 -0500 >We've never seen an Easterner re-incarnated as anything but we >have seen Dragaerans re-incarned as both Dragaerans and Easterners >(OK, one Easterner -- but given the small number of reincarnations >we know of, one is not a disproportionately small number). And >we've never seen an Easterner reincarnated as a Dragaeran. >From the above, I'd assume that karma on Dragaera works like this: >You're re-incarnated repeatedly as a Dragaeran, accumulating good or >bad karma along the way. Eventually you get good enough to be promoted >to Easterner, and never have to be a Dragaeran again. Hi, I think this is exactly what Vlad is afraid of. He would probably disagree with you on the promoted part. I think Vlad, "Don't come back, Fenarian" to the Paths of the Dead, is scared that when he dies he will become a ghost and that is why he did not destroy Franz the ghost. Vlad is worried he could end up just like Franz and not be able to even turn pages in a paper. The Book of Jhereg, Teckla, Chapter 11, pages 418 - 423 Here is a quote you can use if someone says: "This is really weird." "No, it isn't. It's normal. Everything is normal. It's just that some normal things are weirder than other normal things." page 421 Howard Brazee wrote on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:48:35 -0700 >We have seen an Easterner be revived from the dead though. Have we seen >one's soul captured in a Great Weapon? In response Louann Miller wrote Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:02:41 -0600 >>On the contrary. >>Louann, grinning evilly. In response Scott Schultz wrote on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:18:41 -0800 > >I admit it, I don't get the gag here. Is this a reference to Vlad having a > >Dragaeran soul? If so, I don't think that matters. When Vlad was killed by > >The Sword and The Dagger, didn't he take The Dagger (aka Cawti) out with > >him? Aliera gave him the choice to revive her or not and he told her to go > >ahead. That's how I remember things, anyway. > >If it's a different reference, then pardon my ignorance and please explain. > >;-) In response Jot Powers wrote on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:56:55 -0700 >>>It's a typo, and actually something I was thinking about yesterday >>>that annoys me. >>>Loraan. He is killed by Blackwand, and still gets to come back >>>as Undead. >>>This annoys me because: >>>1) It doesn't strike me as something that a Great Weapon should do >>>2) It doesn't strike me that Morrollan (sp [1]) would want to do >>>because, after all, Loraan was very uncooperative in giving him >>>the soul of his cousin (and Adron's daughter) In response, I write: Hey Louann, was that you grinning evilly or Loraan? 1 and 2) "Morrolan's opponent looked at the sword and licked her lips nervously. 'Don't worry,' said Morrolan. 'It does what I tell it to." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 12, page 120. Hey, Morrolan said it not she. I guess he only refers to Blackwand as a she when he is not around strangers. I wonder if Loraan's soul really was kept in a box. Maybe that was why he wanted the staff with the soul in it. So he could figure out how to protect his soul from a Morganti weapon. Oh Oh. Maybe Loraan's soul is still around. No, I do not want to think that; let's compare screams: Vlad throws an enchanted dagger at Loraan. "I heard a scream from what seemed to be the right direction and then Morrolan was hauling me up." ... "My knife was in his stomach, and there was a large cut, as from a sword, in his chest, directly over the heart. He seemed to be rather dead." The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 6, pages 62, 63. "The odd thing was that both of them screamed--first the one who had been stabbed, then the one who did the stabbing, and they both screamed where she could hear it more within her mind than in the room, and both screams went on for a long time." The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 17, page 203. Should there have been two screams...one for the dagger and one for the cut from Blackwand? Maybe Loraan was ready with a spell to protect his soul against Blackwand and was too surprised to do the same thing when Savn stabbed him. Or it could be the spell would not work if he was undead. Maybe Vlad could ask Morrolan to ask Blackwand what happened with Loraan. On Scott Schultz wrote on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:18:41 -0800 >didn't he take The Dagger (aka Cawti) out with >him? Aliera gave him the choice to revive her or not and he told her to go >ahead. That's how I remember things, anyway. Morrolan killed Cawti. "'Which reminds me,' said Morrolan. 'Vlad, I apologize to you. The Easterner should not have been able to attack you. I caused ruptures in several of her internal organs, which should have sent her into shock at once. It did not occur to me to continue watching her." The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, Chapter 7, page 229. Aliera revivified Cawti because: "'No," said Cawti. 'The only reason I'm alive is that Norathar refused to speak to Aliera unless she revivified me.' Bye. Linda G. From books at bofh.com Wed Jan 26 20:19:20 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:19:20 -0700 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 10:42:16PM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: [*snip*] > "The odd thing was that both of them screamed--first the one who had been > stabbed, then the one who did the stabbing, and they both screamed where > she could hear it more within her mind than in the room, and both screams > went on for a long time." > > The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 17, page 203. > > Should there have been two screams...one for the dagger and one for the > cut from Blackwand? I believe this is one scream from Loraan and one from Savn. This is the genesis of Savn's "battle shock". > Maybe Vlad could ask Morrolan to ask Blackwand what happened with > Loraan. Thinking about it, I think we know of one other example...when either Blackwand or Pathfinder kill the Sorceress in Green. We know she gets to "live". I thought there was also a quote about Loraan that went along the lines of "take it up with Blackwand". Book search doesn't yield me anything intuitively obvious to the casual observer, and it is too late for me to do the manual search. :) > Morrolan killed Cawti. This is another excellent point. We also have to presume that Morrolan uses Blackwand when he duels...then again, perhaps not...not very sporting. -Jot > > "'Which reminds me,' said Morrolan. 'Vlad, I apologize to you. The > Easterner should not have been able to attack you. I caused ruptures in > several of her internal organs, which should have sent her into shock at > once. It did not occur to me to continue watching her." > > The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, Chapter 7, page 229. > > Aliera revivified Cawti because: > > "'No," said Cawti. 'The only reason I'm alive is that Norathar refused to > speak to Aliera unless she revivified me.' It still doesn't explain why the Lords of Judgement let Loraan become Undead. It seems to be something in their bailiwick. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 26 20:34:05 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:34:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> References: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Jot Powers wrote: > It still doesn't explain why the Lords of Judgement let Loraan become > Undead. It seems to be something in their bailiwick. I think this in a fine question, but unfortunately "Verra looked into the stream of future events and saw that the Vlad-Savn-Loraan interaction would be of use in shaping Vlad" (or something vaguer) is a good possible answer given the precedent in _Taltos_. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jan 26 21:23:43 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:23:43 -0600 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! In-Reply-To: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> (Steve Simmons's message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:00:28 -0500") References: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > There are plenty of pleasant places where I can discuss current > American politics, but I'd much prefer this list be restricted to > Dragaera. Yeah, I think it'd be better to not get a big mundane political discussion going here too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 21:59:02 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:59:02 -0700 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! References: <20050126170028.GD18428@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: Re: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! > Steve Simmons writes: > > > There are plenty of pleasant places where I can discuss current > > American politics, but I'd much prefer this list be restricted to > > Dragaera. > > Yeah, I think it'd be better to not get a big mundane political > discussion going here too. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Pics: > Dragaera/Steven Brust: > Whats to discuss? They go right after the lawyers do. I think even Vlad could be talked out of retirement for that. . . . Jeff G. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 03:42:27 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:42:27 -0500 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> References: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> Message-ID: <41F8D3A3.1060508@earthlink.net> Jot Powers wrote: >On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 10:42:16PM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >[*snip*] > [*ditto*] >It still doesn't explain why the Lords of Judgement let Loraan become >Undead. It seems to be something in their bailiwick. > We're assuming that the only way to become Undead is via the Sethra Lavode route: you have something important you need to do, so you have to leave the Paths to do it. This method was presented to us as a means of getting out of the Paths, not as a means to become Undead. Loraan, as a necromancer, probably knows exactly what he has to do to become Undead without, say, having to go to the Paths, and if the stories are true, the reason Blackwand didn't kill him dead was because he didn't keep his soul in his body, possibly for study, possibly for protection. This seems to be an archetypal thing that necromancers/wizards/evil magic types do in stories, at least in the popular Russian folk tales that I read as a child (in Spanish, since I don't know Russian and didn't know English until years later). Loraan probably had some kind of condition for becoming dead; i.e., if Dead, then become Undead. As he has no interest in meeting the Lords of Judgment that he may or may not have antagonized (according to Paarfi, who is economical with the truth), he has a fallback plan; the gods don't interfere 'cause they're patient and know they'll get him in the end (they always do). Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Jan 27 04:07:46 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:07:46 +0000 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: <41F8D3A3.1060508@earthlink.net> Message-ID: With regards to keeping one's soul in a box, as per the Teckla: We know that in the field of necromancy, there is one demon who reigns above them all. That would, of course, be, The Necromancer. And she is skilled beyond belief because she has Mastered x of the y gates or planes (where x= 6 and y=7, I think). The point is, necromancy deals with more than death and the unliving, though it's a major component. Necromancy is more a study of existence on other planes. A necromancer's box, then, is likely a spell that transports the soul to a different plane, but leaves a nice little doorway back to the one in which the body exists. However, it won't help the body from being killed--but it will allow the awareness from that body to traverse along the pathways between the planes to get to where the soul is. Home is where the heart is, until it gets hit with a broadsword. Then it's anybody's guess. Further proof for this theory is seen rather unequivocably in _Issola_ which deals almost entirely with traversing the planes between the worlds. Note how the Necromancer is the key player in the endgame scenario. So it's a question of how many gates Loraan has mastered. I would imagine that it was just the one, or maybe even two. This is in itself a very impressive feat. I don't know if even Sethra's done that, though she probably has. At the very least, she has a working understanding of necromancy. We know that one of these planes is where the soul goes after the body dies (usually as a result of non-morganti, non-necromantically-protected deaths). In fact, there could be many of these planes where the soul goes after bodydeath. (side note: I love fantasy/science fiction because it allows for such cool new terms as "bodydeath".) We know that Dragaeran souls are fettered to the Halls of Judgement, which fettering grants the gods a good portion of their power. This may be a direct or indirect result of the fact that these souls recycle to Dragaera whereon lies a vast sea of Chaos, and thus grant the Lords of Judgement some control (heh) over the Sea. Other power providers can be gotten from the natives of the world; the Easterners and the Serioli. Well, we know the Easterners aren't native, but I think they've been there long enough to have their souls fettered to the planet itself, as opposed to the soul of Judgement, assuming they're fettered at all. Sorry for using Wraith: The Oblivion terminology, but it seems to be fitting here. However, we know the Serioli to be rather reluctant worshippers of the gods, and one might call them the makers of the party jokes that go horribly horribly wrong (though maybe not by accident). Serioli: Hey cool party! Gods: Thanks! Serioli Smith: Hey guys wanna see a cool trick? Gods et al: Sure! Dragaeran: This isn't another of the kill the Gods and watch them get back up tricks, is it? Serioli Smith: Damnit! Stop ruining my tricks! Gods et al: (divinely bored) Show us anyway! Serioli Smith: In my land, we call this a "Remover of the aspects of Divinity" God of Hard-hearing or God of Misfortune: What was that last bi---ARRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH Serioli Smith: Oh my god I thought the name was a joke!! *chuckles inwardly* Other Gods: Man, that was seriously not cool. Well, maybe a little.... Anyway... So anyway, my point was somewhere back in the above letter. I think. But in summary, the necromantic planes are alternative means of reality. Not sources or places of reality, but means to reality. Some of them seem to act rather like the fourth dimension might, for instance. But I'll leave you guys to read Stephen Hawking while you ponder replies to this. Jon From books at bofh.com Thu Jan 27 05:54:22 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 06:54:22 -0700 Subject: Looks like dragaera might be on the way... Message-ID: <20050127135422.GA29846@bofh.com> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html The only problem is where to find the right animals. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 06:02:22 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:02:22 -0600 Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? Message-ID: Author Holly Lisle wrote something in her writing blog that resonates with me: http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/ed-yours3.html "I don't consider myself especially subject to whims, and in fact when I do most things, I've been thinking about them so long on and off that I've almost forgotten when the idea first occurred to me. Sometimes the original idea occurred so far in the past that when I do make the change, I think at first that I jumped spontaneously. This is one of those times---no real warning that I was going to make this switch, not for me or anyone else. But my sudden leap to Dvorak isn't really; I've had some pain in my wrists for years after long bouts of typing, and I've already moved to the ergonomic keyboard and the ergonomic desk and chair and I occasionally wear wrist splints and do all the other things that people trying to fend off long-term damage from repetitive-stress injuries do. I knew that the Dvorak layout would help, and I filed that fact in the back of my mind, and at some point, something triggered in me the knowledge that the time to make the change had finally arrived. And I jumped all at once, knowing that if I tried to shuttle between the two systems, I would only slow down my progress and render the whole process more difficult." I'm right there. I'm feeling some ghost pain in my hands, nothing much, but enough to make me just a bit nervous. And then I remembered reading the Piers Anthony (who is nothing if not prolific) switched to Dvorak and was more prolific and effective than ever. And then I realized that I was again checking out various Dvorak articles. I'm standing here at the edge of the cliff and am curious if any of you have taken the plunge, and if you have any tips or considerations beyond the obvious. tia -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From asr at ufl.edu Thu Jan 27 06:13:28 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:13:28 -0500 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. (even more) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:06:07 CST." <41F7BFEF.8020005@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200501271413.j0REDSaA131686@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:06:07 -0600, Mia McDavid said: > Schools, roads, hospitals, libraries, sometimes sports arenas, police, > firefighters, social programs, our armed services--these are not the toys of > assorted officials. Sure they are. Or rather the power to control folks that comes with the administration of these features of our society. If you constituted any of these operations as a business or a charity, you'd immediately fire everyone above the rank of office manager for gross incompetence, fiscal mismanagement, and rampant conflict of interest. Sports arenas, indeed. - Allen S. Rout - Has been resisting this conversation with decreasing success. From asr at ufl.edu Thu Jan 27 06:16:38 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:16:38 -0500 Subject: Keyboards... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:34:53 CST." <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: <200501271416.j0REGcaA192608@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:34:53 -0600, Corwin Brust said: > [1]http://cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm I've been wondering where I'm going to go to replace my IBM PS/2 keyboard when it eventually wears out (from use as a blunt instrument or such) - Allen S. Rout From asr at ufl.edu Thu Jan 27 06:19:04 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:19:04 -0500 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:17:05 CST." <41F7DEA1.7000409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200501271419.j0REJ4aA131732@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:17:05 -0600, Mia McDavid said: > You don't want to listen to me? Another reason to drop out of society, > disappear from the Government's radar, and dissociate yourself from our > civilization. Good. Go. Actually, editing a procmail config is a lot simpler. - Allen S. Rout From ike at manor.org Thu Jan 27 06:33:07 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:33:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20050126235655.GA24511@bofh.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050126170216.01ff1648@mail.ev1.net> <03f401c503fd$5fb1e370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20050126235655.GA24511@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Jot Powers wrote: > It's a typo, and actually something I was thinking about yesterday > that annoys me. > > Loraan. He is killed by Blackwand, and still gets to come back > as Undead. Seeemd to me that Loraan hid his soul somewhere outside his body making it unsuckable, but I have no idea why I thought that. I'll see if I can find something to back that up. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 27 06:32:23 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:32:23 -0700 Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know that, at least for a while, Piers Anthony used Dvorak, and was able to write trash quite rapidly. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 06:39:35 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:39:35 -0500 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> J C wrote: > We know that Dragaeran souls are fettered to the Halls of Judgement, > which fettering grants the gods a good portion of their power. This > may be a direct or indirect result of the fact that these souls > recycle to Dragaera whereon lies a vast sea of Chaos, and thus grant > the Lords of Judgement some control (heh) over the Sea. Other power > providers can be gotten from the natives of the world; the Easterners > and the Serioli. Well, we know the Easterners aren't native, but I > think they've been there long enough to have their souls fettered to > the planet itself, as opposed to the soul of Judgement, assuming > they're fettered at all. Dragaerans aren't native either; they're modified humans/Easterners. I would think this would make their souls interchangeable (I base this on the fact that Vlad is the reincarnation of the first Jhereg, although as someone already mentioned, this circumstance may have come about through divine intervention), but apparently the LoJ can differentiate between Easterners and Dragaerans just fine. Vlad, although he has the soul of an e'Kieron *and* a Jhereg, is not allowed to go back to the Paths of the Dead, as they don't let Easterners in; however, this makes me wonder whether his removal from the Dragaeran soul pool means that he will not be able to return to it, being part of the Easterner soul pool. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From ike at manor.org Thu Jan 27 06:41:04 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:41:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > I know that, at least for a while, Piers Anthony used Dvorak, and was able > to write trash quite rapidly. Hey! Oh, nevermind. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 06:43:02 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:43:02 -0500 Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41F8FDF6.9000400@earthlink.net> As a translator and as a software developer, I'm surprised that I haven't exhibited any symptoms of RSI. Does playing the piano really alleviate this sort of thing to the extent that I haven't had any issues so far despite my less-than-ergonomic keyboards, chairs and desks? Anybody know how much of an impact the playing of an instrument can have on fending off RSI? Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 06:46:24 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:46:24 -0500 Subject: Looks like dragaera might be on the way... In-Reply-To: <20050127135422.GA29846@bofh.com> References: <20050127135422.GA29846@bofh.com> Message-ID: <41F8FEC0.1030905@earthlink.net> Jot Powers wrote: >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html > >The only problem is where to find the right animals. > > From the article: "And at Stanford University in California an experiment might be done later this year to create mice with human brains." Anyone else think of Pinky and the Brain? Imagine crossing a snake with a bat, ensuring that it has four limbs (two legs, and two wings) and adding human intelligence as well as telepathic ability. Instant Loiosh, just add water. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 06:50:18 2005 From: tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com (Charlie Arnold) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:50:18 -0500 Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c5047f$885fe1f0$7733a8c0@ansoft.com> I tried and failed about seven months ago, but after much consideration I believe I'm going to make another attempt. I am 31 years old and learned to type QWERTY in the fifth grade on a lovely old IBM selectric machine. I grew up with computers and have been at a keyboard for multiple hours out of the day almost every day since middle school. Now in my professional life as a programmer it's practically the only way I communicate with anyone outside of my family. The learning part of the attempt was easy. Memorizing the key layout took about two weeks of hour a day practice. Perfect adoption just never came however. I never achieved the sort of cognizant disconnect I get with QWERTY style typing, where characters execute as a direct result of thought, without passing through a conscious translation layer. I got up to about 75 words per minute using the method, but the amount of concentration required made it a mentally exhausting exercise. I top out at about 125 words per minute on the QWERTY method. After about a month of trying to hit that unconscious plateau, I tabled the effort. In retrospect I think the chief reason I failed is that I didn't adjust my mindset when I sat down at the keyboard in Dvorak mode. I was in typing mode, which for me, because of long mechanical devotion, is inextricably linked to QWERTY. When I processed the signal to type a letter, my fingers would invariably begin to execute the QWERTY motion, then I'd consciously kick in the translation to Dvorak and adjust. The 'double-twitch' this created was uncomfortable and over the long term, exhausting. The next time around I'm going to give myself a fresh mental state when attempting to type Dvorak, where my conscious effort is spent repressing the QWERTY from the outset rather than translating it to a Dvorak motion. I think that doing so will mean that it takes significantly longer to improve my speed, but that I won't find myself capped at that 75-80 wpm rate and the attendant mental fatigue. Charlie -----Original Message----- From: Johne Cook [mailto:johne.cook at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:02 AM To: Dragaera list Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? Author Holly Lisle wrote something in her writing blog that resonates with me: http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/ed-yours3.html "I don't consider myself especially subject to whims, and in fact when I do most things, I've been thinking about them so long on and off that I've almost forgotten when the idea first occurred to me. Sometimes the original idea occurred so far in the past that when I do make the change, I think at first that I jumped spontaneously. This is one of those times---no real warning that I was going to make this switch, not for me or anyone else. But my sudden leap to Dvorak isn't really; I've had some pain in my wrists for years after long bouts of typing, and I've already moved to the ergonomic keyboard and the ergonomic desk and chair and I occasionally wear wrist splints and do all the other things that people trying to fend off long-term damage from repetitive-stress injuries do. I knew that the Dvorak layout would help, and I filed that fact in the back of my mind, and at some point, something triggered in me the knowledge that the time to make the change had finally arrived. And I jumped all at once, knowing that if I tried to shuttle between the two systems, I would only slow down my progress and render the whole process more difficult." I'm right there. I'm feeling some ghost pain in my hands, nothing much, but enough to make me just a bit nervous. And then I remembered reading the Piers Anthony (who is nothing if not prolific) switched to Dvorak and was more prolific and effective than ever. And then I realized that I was again checking out various Dvorak articles. I'm standing here at the edge of the cliff and am curious if any of you have taken the plunge, and if you have any tips or considerations beyond the obvious. tia -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From books at bofh.com Thu Jan 27 06:54:47 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 07:54:47 -0700 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050126170216.01ff1648@mail.ev1.net> <03f401c503fd$5fb1e370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20050126235655.GA24511@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050127145447.GA30240@bofh.com> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:33:07AM -0500, Ike Porter wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Jot Powers wrote: > > > It's a typo, and actually something I was thinking about yesterday > > that annoys me. > > > > Loraan. He is killed by Blackwand, and still gets to come back > > as Undead. > > Seeemd to me that Loraan hid his soul somewhere outside his body making it > unsuckable, but I have no idea why I thought that. I'll see if I can find > something to back that up. I think it comes from a quote where Savn says that he keeps his soul in a box so he can't be killed. I had always discarded this as superstition of his vassals and without a basis in fact. However, I suppose it could be true. (Or maybe it was Savn's sister, whose name is escaping me, and I'm AFB) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From corwin at mpls.cx Thu Jan 27 07:05:15 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:05:15 -0600 Subject: Keyboards... In-Reply-To: <200501271416.j0REGcaA192608@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> References: <200501271416.j0REGcaA192608@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <41F9032B.4070402@mpls.cx> asr at ufl.edu wrote: >==> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:34:53 -0600, Corwin Brust said: > > > > >>[1]http://cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm >> >> > >I've been wondering where I'm going to go to replace my IBM PS/2 keyboard when >it eventually wears out (from use as a blunt instrument or such) > > I'll be getting another one of these shortly, myself. This one has had soda spilled in it a few too many times, such that several of the keys (particularly the up-arrow in the separate arrow key block and, occasionally, the Enter key.) Also about 25% of the letters have warn off of the keys. On the home-row only G, H, and J are visible, which isn't so much of a problem for me, but seriously hampers others trying to use my PC. I've had this one since Dec. of '99. From scs at di.org Thu Jan 27 07:32:19 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:32:19 -0500 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <41F8D3A3.1060508@earthlink.net> References: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> <41F8D3A3.1060508@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050127153219.GC21193@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:42:27AM -0500, Jose Marquez wrote: > We're assuming that the only way to become Undead is via the Sethra > Lavode route: you have something important you need to do, so you have > to leave the Paths to do it. This method was presented to us as a means > of getting out of the Paths, not as a means to become Undead . . . A good point. It reminds me of some other questions about Dragaeran vampirism, too. Does becoming a vampire via the die -> soul to the Paths -> return as vampire sequence require the body be sent over the Falls? I would think so, as 'traditional' vampirism includes the reanimation of the corpse. Do we know if Sethra's body went over the Falls or not? I have vague memories of Sethra saying so, but couldn't locate the refs. At what point did the Falls become part of Dragaeran tradition? In particular, were they in use at the founding of the Empire and was Keirons body sent over them? If so, it would seem possible that he could be returned as a vampire even after all those years. This has the narrative advantage that he could return as an adult rather than growing to adulthood long after Vlad dies. 'Reincarnated' also doesn't mean the memories are available. Most folks don't have the faintest idea who they're reincarnated from, tho finding out can't be *too* difficult or they'd never have gone to the effort of casually probing Vlads past identities. Nor do we have solid data on just how much of a past life is recallable. Knowing who you were is a far cry from having full memories of the past lives. Finally, my wisecrack about being promoted out of the wheel of Karma after being an Easterner was just a wisecrack. But the Necromancer has dropped pretty strong hints that the souls of Easterners simply go some other direction (remember, to her it's all engineering). This leads me to think that there may be a different place for Easterners, from which reincarnation may or may not be possible - or from which reincarnation can go elsewhere but not to Dragaera. And it's quite possible that even when a non-great Morganti weapon 'consumes' a soul, it's not really eaten. It simply goes to a place from which it can't be reincarnated on Dragaera. Or it's torn apart (cf Issola) and becomes grist for other things -- maybe the source of Eastern or 'new' souls? I suspect the Necromancer already knows the answer to that one, and nobody's thought to ask. It's probably to Steve B's benefit to keep this all as undefined as possible, so he's got flexibility for future plotting. Steve S -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 07:57:58 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:57:58 -0500 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20050127153219.GC21193@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050127041920.GA26182@bofh.com> <41F8D3A3.1060508@earthlink.net> <20050127153219.GC21193@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <41F90F86.9050504@earthlink.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:42:27AM -0500, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > >>We're assuming that the only way to become Undead is via the Sethra >>Lavode route: you have something important you need to do, so you have >>to leave the Paths to do it. This method was presented to us as a means >>of getting out of the Paths, not as a means to become Undead . . . >> >> > >A good point. > >It reminds me of some other questions about Dragaeran vampirism, too. > >Does becoming a vampire via the die -> soul to the Paths -> return as >vampire sequence require the body be sent over the Falls? I would think >so, as 'traditional' vampirism includes the reanimation of the corpse. > >Do we know if Sethra's body went over the Falls or not? I have vague >memories of Sethra saying so, but couldn't locate the refs. > > [excellent points snipped] I believe it is in Taltos that Vlad asks Morrolan whether anyone he knows has gone over the Falls (they're standing right next to the Dzur statue by the river that turns into the Falls, I think), and Morrolan answers, "Sethra." Vlad goes on to say that he thought she was Dragon, and Morrolan shrugs or some such (sorry, AFB). I think from this and the fact that Vlad doesn't mention Loraan not looking like himself when they first met, we can deduce that vampires generally keep their old bodies. I'm generalizing from a sample of one and a half, though... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 27 08:50:17 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:50:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: <41F8FDF6.9000400@earthlink.net> References: <41F8FDF6.9000400@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > As a translator and as a software developer, I'm surprised that I > haven't exhibited any symptoms of RSI. Does playing the piano really > alleviate this sort of thing to the extent that I haven't had any issues > so far despite my less-than-ergonomic keyboards, chairs and desks? > Anybody know how much of an impact the playing of an instrument can have > on fending off RSI? Speculatively: playing an instrument well requires the ability to keep the hands from tensing and to be aware of fatigue. For some (all?) instruments good posture and correctly-maintained body position are also essential. Those might carry over into typing. I play the flute, and as far as I know it's just not a perfect instrument >from an ergonomic point of view. The viola is supposed to be worse. Probably there's some interplay between wear from performing and the above effects. From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 09:00:27 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:00:27 -0800 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Dragaerans aren't native either; they're modified humans/Easterners. I > would think this would make their souls interchangeable (I base this > on the fact that Vlad is the reincarnation of the first Jhereg, > although as someone already mentioned, this circumstance may have come > about through divine intervention), but apparently the LoJ can > differentiate between Easterners and Dragaerans just fine. Vlad, > although he has the soul of an e'Kieron *and* a Jhereg, is not allowed > to go back to the Paths of the Dead, as they don't let Easterners in; > however, this makes me wonder whether his removal from the Dragaeran > soul pool means that he will not be able to return to it, being part > of the Easterner soul pool. > > Jose > > -- > Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in > jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand > http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > > I thought the " e' " prefix meant you were descended from a certain person. Vlad (in his earlier incarnation) was Kieron's brother, not his son. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 09:20:30 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:20:30 -0500 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> Timothy Scott wrote: >> Dragaerans aren't native either; they're modified humans/Easterners. >> I would think this would make their souls interchangeable (I base >> this on the fact that Vlad is the reincarnation of the first Jhereg, >> although as someone already mentioned, this circumstance may have >> come about through divine intervention), but apparently the LoJ can >> differentiate between Easterners and Dragaerans just fine. Vlad, >> although he has the soul of an e'Kieron *and* a Jhereg, is not >> allowed to go back to the Paths of the Dead, as they don't let >> Easterners in; however, this makes me wonder whether his removal from >> the Dragaeran soul pool means that he will not be able to return to >> it, being part of the Easterner soul pool. >> >> Jose >> >> -- >> Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in >> jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand >> http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. >> >> > > I thought the " e' " prefix meant you were descended from a certain > person. Vlad (in his earlier incarnation) was Kieron's brother, not > his son. You're right; I was just trying to riff on the whole family line and make Dolivar a Dragon and a Jhereg (rather than an ex-Dragon). I wonder if Kieron's parents could create chaos... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 09:20:45 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:20:45 -0500 Subject: Necromancy Message-ID: <685617E2.23B3145B.00184D6D@aol.com> And this is why Vlad speaks to philosophers and sometimes kills them (_Athyra_, when Vlad converses with Svan) ;o) **not meant to be an insult...I found it all very interesting** -C In a message dated 1/27/2005 7:07:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, "J C" writes: >With regards to keeping one's soul in a box, as per the Teckla: > >We know that in the field of necromancy, there is one demon who reigns above >them all. ?That would, of course, be, The Necromancer. ?And she is skilled >beyond belief because she has Mastered x of the y gates or planes (where x= >6 and y=7, I think). > >The point is, necromancy deals with more than death and the unliving, though >it's a major component. ?Necromancy is more a study of existence on other >planes. > >A necromancer's box, then, is likely a spell that transports the soul to a >different plane, but leaves a nice little doorway back to the one in which >the body exists. > >However, it won't help the body from being killed--but it will allow the >awareness from that body to traverse along the pathways between the planes >to get to where the soul is. ?Home is where the heart is, until it gets hit >with a broadsword. ?Then it's anybody's guess. > >Further proof for this theory is seen rather unequivocably in _Issola_ which >deals almost entirely with traversing the planes between the worlds. ?Note >how the Necromancer is the key player in the endgame scenario. > >So it's a question of how many gates Loraan has mastered. ?I would imagine >that it was just the one, or maybe even two. ? This is in itself a very >impressive feat. ?I don't know if even Sethra's done that, though she >probably has. ?At the very least, she has a working understanding of >necromancy. > >We know that one of these planes is where the soul goes after the body dies >(usually as a result of non-morganti, non-necromantically-protected deaths). > ?In fact, there could be many of these planes where the soul goes after >bodydeath. ?(side note: I love fantasy/science fiction because it allows for >such cool new terms as "bodydeath".) > >We know that Dragaeran souls are fettered to the Halls of Judgement, which >fettering grants the gods a good portion of their power. ?This may be a >direct or indirect result of the fact that these souls recycle to Dragaera >whereon lies a vast sea of Chaos, and thus grant the Lords of Judgement some >control (heh) over the Sea. ?Other power providers can be gotten from the >natives of the world; the Easterners and the Serioli. ?Well, we know the >Easterners aren't native, but I think they've been there long enough to have >their souls fettered to the planet itself, as opposed to the soul of >Judgement, assuming they're fettered at all. > >Sorry for using Wraith: The Oblivion terminology, but it seems to be fitting >here. > >However, we know the Serioli to be rather reluctant worshippers of the gods, >and one might call them the makers of the party jokes that go horribly >horribly wrong (though maybe not by accident). > >Serioli: Hey cool party! >Gods: Thanks! >Serioli Smith: Hey guys wanna see a cool trick? >Gods et al: Sure! >Dragaeran: This isn't another of the kill the Gods and watch them get back >up tricks, is it? >Serioli Smith: Damnit! ?Stop ruining my tricks! >Gods et al: (divinely bored) Show us anyway! >Serioli Smith: In my land, we call this a "Remover of the aspects of >Divinity" >God of Hard-hearing or God of Misfortune: What was that last >bi---ARRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH >Serioli Smith: Oh my god I thought the name was a joke!! *chuckles inwardly* >Other Gods: ?Man, that was seriously not cool. ?Well, maybe a little.... > > >Anyway... > >So anyway, my point was somewhere back in the above letter. ?I think. ?But >in summary, the necromantic planes are alternative means of reality. ?Not >sources or places of reality, but means to reality. ?Some of them seem to >act rather like the fourth dimension might, for instance. > >But I'll leave you guys to read Stephen Hawking while you ponder replies to >this. > >Jon > > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 09:38:12 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:38:12 -0500 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera Message-ID: <45C74BC8.7E185E12.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/27/2005 9:54:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jot Powers writes: >On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:33:07AM -0500, Ike Porter wrote: >> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Jot Powers wrote: >> >> > It's a typo, and actually something I was thinking about yesterday >> > that annoys me. >> > >> > Loraan. ?He is killed by Blackwand, and still gets to come back >> > as Undead. >> >> Seeemd to me that Loraan hid his soul somewhere outside his body making it >> unsuckable, but I have no idea why I thought that. I'll see if I can find >> something to back that up. > >I think it comes from a quote where Savn says that he keeps his soul >in a box so he can't be killed. ?I had always discarded this as >superstition of his vassals and without a basis in fact. ?However, >I suppose it could be true. ?(Or maybe it was Savn's sister, whose >name is escaping me, and I'm AFB) > Her name is Polyi (I don't know her whole name as it is only mentioned once and I am also AFB). Anyway, yeah, one of them sas it when the three of them (Vlad included) are in the cave and Vlad mutters he is going to kill Loraan and Polyi said he can't cause his soul is and a box and well, just can't (oh, there solves who said it). This comes from _Athyra_, btw. -C >-Jot >-- >Jot Powers ? ? ? ? ?http://www.bofh.com/books/ >"I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" > ? ?-Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan > From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 09:49:05 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:49:05 -0500 Subject: good news! Message-ID: <16EB2DCC.0A95A4FD.00184D6D@aol.com> When I came home from putting my little cat to sleep (so many memories that I won't share cause you probably don't want to read them), I was told that I got mail in the form of a huge package. Guess what? They were the stickers!!! I will be sending them out to the few people who sent me money so far. You won't get your stickers if I don't have your money. So please, send your money. If you lost my address, e-mail me and I will tell you my addy. There are still a few left if anyone did order yet, of if you want a few more. Remember, they are $2 each. Also, please write your e-mail address somewhere with the money, not everybody uses their name w/ e-mail, so I get a little messed up. So far so good though. Again, thank you everybody and sned in your money! -C From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 27 10:50:07 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:50:07 -0700 Subject: Necromancy References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Marquez" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Necromancy > Timothy Scott wrote: > > >> Dragaerans aren't native either; they're modified humans/Easterners. > >> I would think this would make their souls interchangeable (I base > >> this on the fact that Vlad is the reincarnation of the first Jhereg, > >> although as someone already mentioned, this circumstance may have > >> come about through divine intervention), but apparently the LoJ can > >> differentiate between Easterners and Dragaerans just fine. Vlad, > >> although he has the soul of an e'Kieron *and* a Jhereg, is not > >> allowed to go back to the Paths of the Dead, as they don't let > >> Easterners in; however, this makes me wonder whether his removal from > >> the Dragaeran soul pool means that he will not be able to return to > >> it, being part of the Easterner soul pool. > >> > >> Jose > >> > >> -- > >> Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in > >> jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand > >> http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > >> > >> > > > > I thought the " e' " prefix meant you were descended from a certain > > person. Vlad (in his earlier incarnation) was Kieron's brother, not > > his son. > > You're right; I was just trying to riff on the whole family line and > make Dolivar a Dragon and a Jhereg (rather than an ex-Dragon). I wonder > if Kieron's parents could create chaos... > > Jose > No, they can't. Otherwise they would not keep trying to reaccess Dragerea to get to the Sea of Chaos. I think that Keiron, Doliver and Sethra are probably from the same batch of cross breeds created by the Jenoine. Remember the description of Sethra's lineage block? I believe it was in FHYA, it was described as if she had come from nothing. Now, the other thought that rolled through my head. It was mentioned that to the Necromancer, life and death are matters of engineering. So, if you approach it that way, we can assume multiple planes of existence, and to access these you must be in various life states. (Life ace we would consider it.) So, to a Dragerean, death is a transition from the life state on this plane, to the life state on the plane that is held by the Lords of Judgment. Thus, Morganti weapons may not necessarily destroy the soul, they prevent it >from transitioning to the next plane of existence, the Paths of the Dead. This explains why those studying Necromantic Sorcery would have a collection of Morganti weapons, so they can observe how that transition from plane to plane is stopped, as that would also lead one to how the transition is done. This is also supported by comments made by Verra, and the events related in BDP, as Verra is prevented from manifesting in that plane. We have already seen that gods and demons can manifest in multiple places at once, so when Verra was killed, that manifestation (of a part of her "soul") was destroyed, and the ability to return to that plane was removed. Now, what is interesting, is that Verra can still manifest in Dragerea. So, does this imply that Dragerea and the East are two different planes? This is supported by the lack of attacks by the Jenoine on the East as a way to get to the Empire. Jeff G. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 10:53:52 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:53:52 EST Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (was, Re: duh!) Warning, Off Topic. (even more) Message-ID: <194.37354ea2.2f2a92c0@aol.com> In a message dated 01/27/2005 9:25:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, asr at ufl.edu writes: ==> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:06:07 -0600, Mia McDavid said: > Schools, roads, hospitals, libraries, sometimes sports arenas, police, > firefighters, social programs, our armed services--these are not the toys of > assorted officials. Sure they are. Or rather the power to control folks that comes with the administration of these features of our society. If you constituted any of these operations as a business or a charity, you'd immediately fire everyone above the rank of office manager for gross incompetence, fiscal mismanagement, and rampant conflict of interest. Sports arenas, indeed. - Allen S. Rout - Has been resisting this conversation with decreasing success. Our modern political, economic and social systems are based on Hobbsian principles. Self interest (or as you put it 'conflict of interest' ) is essential to these systems working. You are correct Allen, within the political system there is corruption and self interest, the question- Do these stop our system >from working??? 200 years of financial, social and political success, making us the most powerful economic, military and social force on the planet is pretty credible proof that our system is pretty good, even with it's faults. Remember that social, economic and political systems have the same problem as the people who set them up---no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. At least our system allows us an avenue for reletively peaceful change. Dragaera has a system set up whereby the Feudal system is run by a benevolent Monarch who only has the best interests of the State in mind. The orb sees to that as well as Verra and the gods. We do not have such a system of checks in place so we rely upon our beauracracy, the media and the two party political system to help. Not to mention the three branches of government. John D. Barbato, OD From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 27 10:34:48 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:34:48 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <41F78B79.2756.9CDF17@localhost> References: <41F78B79.2756.9CDF17@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127133150.034a9560@pop.east.cox.net> At 12:22 01/26/2005, Michele Riccio wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 11:18:01AM -0500, Rachel wrote: > > > > > I noticed mostly male voices were weighing in on this (unless I > > > missed some not as obvious female handles). My opinion is that she > > > would know at a minimum of three weeks after conception . . . > > > > I know at least one woman who was preparing for a long, stressful bit > > of excercise (an ascent of Mt. Everest). As the ascent got closer, > > she needed a recent physical certifying her good health. At that point > > she was discovered to be pregnant; 4 months if I recall. This was an > > intelligent woman, in her middle 30s, with one previous child. > >Are we all assuming a completely predictible cycle? Cawti may be >somewhat eratic in this respect, so a few weeks or even months late >may not clue her in right away. > >And what about birth control? She may have been using something >before she and Vlad were married that persists in her system or >threw her cycle off when she stopped taking it - and masked her >awareness of the pregnancy. The events of Teckla and Phoenix happen pretty fast and close together, as I see it. Cawti may be in early pregnancy but hasn't yet told Vlad; and their growing estrangement in those two novels could easily persuade her not to bring up the subject; especially after the events in Phoenix make Vlad a fugutive--and he's certainly been out of touch thereafter! -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 27 10:42:24 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:42:24 -0500 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127133624.034a3d60@pop.east.cox.net> At 12:34 01/26/2005, Corwin Brust wrote: >Johne Cook wrote: > >>Finally, I'm interested in things as basic as QWERTY vs Dvorak. > >He's using an Avant Stellar[1], configured as QWERTY. I use exactly the >same machine. I can't recall if he's used the extra keycaps to move CTRL >around to where ghod intended, but I'd not be surprised since he's writing >in Emacs using a sprint-mode written by DD-B. Besides not being Dvorak, >the keyboard has mechanical action and physical key-click and, in fact, >requires a hammer-like finger action. > >[1]http://cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm It looks exactly like my elderly Northgate Omni Key/ULTRA. If it is, in fact, based on the Northgate design, it is possible to rotate the Ctrl, Caps Lock, and Alt keys on the left clockwise, and to switch Ctrl and Alt on the right with a DIP switch--different key caps came for the Ctrl and Caps Lock, as they are slightly different in size when moved. A good strong keyboard, but no click and doesn't require much in the line of finger action, either. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 27 11:06:57 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:06:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > > From: "Jose Marquez" The no "So-and-so wrote" is a pain... > > I wonder if Kieron's parents could create chaos... > > No, they can't. Otherwise they would not keep trying to reaccess Dragerea to > get to the Sea of Chaos. Ooh, slick! From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 11:40:25 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:40:25 -0500 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41F943A9.8080106@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > > > >>Jose Marquez wrote: >> >The no "So-and-so wrote" is a pain... > > > >>>I wonder if Kieron's parents could create chaos... >>> >>> >>No, they can't. Otherwise they would not keep trying to reaccess Dragerea to >>get to the Sea of Chaos. >> >> > >Ooh, slick! > > I liked it, too. But it raises an interesting question: how the hell did the Jenoine manage to not notice chaos-creation abilities as one of the "gifts" they implanted in their test subjects? Or perhaps their experiments on humans/Dragaerans were not so precise. Also, does this mean the Jenoine named Kieron? How did he and the other members of the 31 tribes learn language/culture, if not from parents? If humans and Dragaerans started out from the same stock, and the Jenoine are the creators, why would a slightly modified variant who holds honor in high regard want to wipe out his cousins? Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either the Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes parents that are not Jenoine. Thoughts? Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 27 12:25:34 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:25:34 -0700 Subject: Necromancy References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> <41F943A9.8080106@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Marquez" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Necromancy > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > > > > >>Jose Marquez wrote: > >> > >The no "So-and-so wrote" is a pain... > > > > > > > >>>I wonder if Kieron's parents could create chaos... > >>> > >>> > >>No, they can't. Otherwise they would not keep trying to reaccess Dragerea to > >>get to the Sea of Chaos. > >> > >> > > > >Ooh, slick! > > > > > I liked it, too. But it raises an interesting question: how the hell did > the Jenoine manage to not notice chaos-creation abilities as one of the > "gifts" they implanted in their test subjects? Or perhaps their > experiments on humans/Dragaerans were not so precise. Also, does this > mean the Jenoine named Kieron? How did he and the other members of the > 31 tribes learn language/culture, if not from parents? If humans and > Dragaerans started out from the same stock, and the Jenoine are the > creators, why would a slightly modified variant who holds honor in high > regard want to wipe out his cousins? > They may have been held apart as breeding stock. Aliera does not care for this line of thought, and does not believe it, as is stated by Sethra. For the most part, Drageareans are unaware of the link between themselves and Easterners. > Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments > involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting > their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either the > Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or > more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through > mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes > parents that are not Jenoine. > > Thoughts? > > Jose > Remember, the Sea of Chaos was not created until the event that removed the Jenoine from Dragerea. We have insufficent information as to the presence of Chaos on Dragerea prior to then. I would think that your last theory is true, that chaos creation was a Verra aided mutation, as it is linked to the soul rather than the body. Also, if the Jenoine added it, there would be more than one genetic line that could do it. Manipulation of it seems to be an inherent learned skill, as any sorcerer can do it, including the various deities and the Jenoine, so that may have been a Jenoine added option. Jeff G. From tsarren at alyra.org Thu Jan 27 12:21:30 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:21:30 -0600 Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: References: <41F8FDF6.9000400@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050127202130.GX9539@Durandal> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:50:17AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > As a translator and as a software developer, I'm surprised that I > > haven't exhibited any symptoms of RSI. Does playing the piano really > > alleviate this sort of thing to the extent that I haven't had any issues > > so far despite my less-than-ergonomic keyboards, chairs and desks? > > Anybody know how much of an impact the playing of an instrument can have > > on fending off RSI? > > Speculatively: playing an instrument well requires the ability to keep the > hands from tensing and to be aware of fatigue. For some (all?) > instruments good posture and correctly-maintained body position are > also essential. Those might carry over into typing. > > I play the flute, and as far as I know it's just not a perfect instrument > from an ergonomic point of view. The viola is supposed to be worse. > Probably there's some interplay between wear from performing and the above > effects. I know several musicians who have developed RSI of various kinds - one was a pianist whose problem was related to a specific set of motions required for a particular passage, and further exacerbated by playing in general. It cleared up with a few weeks of taking it easy and avoiding the passage that set it off in the first place. Another was a violinist who had tendonitis something fierce in her elbow. This required a break of several months plus medical intervention to fix. The third person I know played clairinet, had something start going wrong with her thumb in early high school, and by the time she was mid-way through college, she had to give up the instrument entirely or lose the use of that hand. I'm a percussionist, and I have RSI, but not from playing. So, to answer the question(s), it probably depends on genetics. There are lots of people out there who use a keyboard or play an instrument all day long and never have problems with it. There are lots of people who take every ergonomic precaution they can, but who still get RSI. Jose, you likely have good genes, enjoy. Kat From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Thu Jan 27 13:17:32 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:17:32 -0500 Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Marquez" > > > Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments > > involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting > > their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either the > > Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or > > more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through > > mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes > > parents that are not Jenoine. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Jose > > > Remember, the Sea of Chaos was not created until the event that removed > the > Jenoine from Dragerea. We have insufficent information as to the presence > of > Chaos on Dragerea prior to then. I would think that your last theory is > true, that chaos creation was a Verra aided mutation, as it is linked to > the > soul rather than the body. Also, if the Jenoine added it, there would be > more than one genetic line that could do it. Manipulation of it seems to > be > an inherent learned skill, as any sorcerer can do it, including the > various > deities and the Jenoine, so that may have been a Jenoine added option. > > Jeff G. Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul. It doesn't make sense to me that a genetic modification could create an ability to control something when the ability to create that thing is linked to the soul. I suppose it's possible, but how or why would the Jenoine have bred in that ability unless they knew of its existence and think it will be necessary. Which raises the question of what exactly were the Jenoine experimenting for. Were they trying to create a being capable of creating chaos, and all the other genetic tinkering was simply tangential to that purpose? Or is that answered somewhere in the text that I missed? From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 27 13:16:26 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:16:26 -0700 Subject: Reincarnation In-Reply-To: References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I wonder if there is a limit to reincarnation - say 17 times? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 13:25:01 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:25:01 -0500 Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41F95C2D.7030105@earthlink.net> Grady Brandt wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jose Marquez" >> >> >> >>>Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments >>>involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting >>>their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either the >>>Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or >>>more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through >>>mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes >>>parents that are not Jenoine. >>> >>>Thoughts? >>> >>>Jose >>> >>> >>> >>Remember, the Sea of Chaos was not created until the event that removed >>the >>Jenoine from Dragerea. We have insufficent information as to the presence >>of >>Chaos on Dragerea prior to then. I would think that your last theory is >>true, that chaos creation was a Verra aided mutation, as it is linked to >>the >>soul rather than the body. Also, if the Jenoine added it, there would be >>more than one genetic line that could do it. Manipulation of it seems to >>be >>an inherent learned skill, as any sorcerer can do it, including the >>various >>deities and the Jenoine, so that may have been a Jenoine added option. >> >>Jeff G. >> >> > >Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul. It doesn't >make sense to me that a genetic modification could create an ability to >control something when the ability to create that thing is linked to the >soul. I suppose it's possible, but how or why would the Jenoine have bred in > >that ability unless they knew of its existence and think it will be >necessary. >Which raises the question of what exactly were the Jenoine experimenting >for. Were they trying to create a being capable of creating chaos, and all >the other genetic tinkering was simply tangential to that purpose? >Or is that answered somewhere in the text that I missed? > > Maybe this is exactly what they were trying to do: create a being that could create chaos. And as they succeeded, Verra revolted, destroying their lab, notes, etc. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Thu Jan 27 13:31:49 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:31:49 -0800 Subject: Reincarnation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200501272132.j0RLVvTi004756@smtp.ucsd.edu> -----Original Message----- From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:16 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Reincarnation >I wonder if there is a limit to reincarnation - say 17 times? Well, there probably is a limit NOW, even if there wasn't one before. From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org Thu Jan 27 13:56:03 2005 From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:56:03 -0500 Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] > > Grady Brandt wrote: > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Jose Marquez" > >> > >> > >> > >>>Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments > >>>involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting > >>>their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either > the > >>>Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or > >>>more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through > >>>mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes > >>>parents that are not Jenoine. > >>> > >>>Thoughts? > >>> > >>>Jose > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Remember, the Sea of Chaos was not created until the event that removed > >>the > >>Jenoine from Dragerea. We have insufficent information as to the > presence > >>of > >>Chaos on Dragerea prior to then. I would think that your last theory is > >>true, that chaos creation was a Verra aided mutation, as it is linked to > >>the > >>soul rather than the body. Also, if the Jenoine added it, there would be > >>more than one genetic line that could do it. Manipulation of it seems to > >>be > >>an inherent learned skill, as any sorcerer can do it, including the > >>various > >>deities and the Jenoine, so that may have been a Jenoine added option. > >> > >>Jeff G. > >> > >> > > > >Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul. It > doesn't > >make sense to me that a genetic modification could create an ability to > >control something when the ability to create that thing is linked to the > >soul. I suppose it's possible, but how or why would the Jenoine have bred > in > > > >that ability unless they knew of its existence and think it will be > >necessary. > >Which raises the question of what exactly were the Jenoine experimenting > >for. Were they trying to create a being capable of creating chaos, and > all > >the other genetic tinkering was simply tangential to that purpose? > >Or is that answered somewhere in the text that I missed? > > > > > Maybe this is exactly what they were trying to do: create a being that > could create chaos. And as they succeeded, Verra revolted, destroying > their lab, notes, etc. > > Jose Or perhaps the chaos creation was a gift from Verra (as was suggested above) in an attempt to get the Jenoine to go away. Give them what they want and they'll leave you alone. Only they didn't. So she got violent. Of course, now I'm just trying to see how far I can twist the theory before it snaps. :) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jan 27 14:00:29 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reincarnation Message-ID: <200501272200.j0RM0Tam028294@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder if there is a limit to reincarnation - say 17 times? Heh. If you don't make the cut by then, you get a purple robe? Which begs the question: If Pel were to be given a purple robe, would he insist on silk, generous lapels, and perhaps some shoulder pads? ;) Chris From scs at di.org Thu Jan 27 14:27:08 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:27:08 -0500 Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050127222708.GD23600@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 04:17:32PM -0500, Grady Brandt wrote: > Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul . . . Perhaps chaos manipulation was an unintended result of an attempt to do something else. -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From corwin at mpls.cx Thu Jan 27 14:49:21 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:49:21 -0600 Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050127133624.034a3d60@pop.east.cox.net> References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> <6.2.0.14.2.20050127133624.034a3d60@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <41F96FF1.3040002@mpls.cx> Peter H. Granzeau wrote in part: > At 12:34 01/26/2005, Corwin Brust wrote: > >> Johne Cook wrote: >> >>> Finally, I'm interested in things as basic as QWERTY vs Dvorak. >> >> >> He's using an Avant Stellar[1], >> [1]http://cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm > > It looks exactly like my elderly Northgate Omni Key/ULTRA. If it is, > in fact, based on the Northgate design, it is possible to rotate the > Ctrl, Caps Lock, and Alt keys on the left clockwise, and to switch > Ctrl and Alt on the right with a DIP switch--different key caps came > for the Ctrl and Caps Lock, as they are slightly different in size > when moved. A good strong keyboard, but no click and doesn't require > much in the line of finger action, either. Yes. I has two different Omni Key/ULTRAs which I picked up very cheep while working at a Computer Renaissance. When the second one finally broke (spilling soda on keyboards is chronic, for me) I found the Avant Stellar which seemed to have bought the design from Northgate. It was shortly after that that Dad decided he needed a new keyboard and, knowing that his taste in keyboards runs very similar to mine, I passed the information along. There are a few differences worth noting: The Avant does have physical key click. Also, while the Avant does come with extra key-caps (including the extra big Control and smaller Caps Lock keys) it has a flash-rom chip which stores the key layout, and let's you write keyboard macros to the keyboard (fun, for nethack.) The downsides to this latter feature are 1. The software for this is Windows based, so I have to boot back over to the XP side to reprogram the keyboard when I want to change things and 2. I can't pull the trick where I run the keyboard though the dishwasher after a soda incident, anymore. This worked several times with the Northgate product. From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 16:26:28 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:26:28 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory Message-ID: <5BF7BAC0.510A6DAA.00184D6D@aol.com> I have to pay more attention to sending mail to the list only. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Chaos Theory Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:09:43 -0500 Size: 2118 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20050127/f30bd4ee/attachment.mht From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 16:27:11 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:27:11 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory2 Message-ID: <14DD14E7.771B4D7C.00184D6D@aol.com> again, sorry. meant for the whole list. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MedCat7 Subject: Chaos Theory2 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:22:22 -0500 Size: 2756 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20050127/29e1d931/attachment.mht From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 17:26:22 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:26:22 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory2 In-Reply-To: <14DD14E7.771B4D7C.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <14DD14E7.771B4D7C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41F994BE.7070803@earthlink.net> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/2005 3:25:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff > G." writes: > >>Remember, the Sea of Chaos was not created until the event that removed the >>Jenoine from Dragerea. We have insufficent information as to the presence of >>Chaos on Dragerea prior to then. I would think that your last theory is >>true, that chaos creation was a Verra aided mutation, as it is linked to the >>soul rather than the body. Also, if the Jenoine added it, there would be >>more than one genetic line that could do it. Manipulation of it seems to be >>an inherent learned skill, as any sorcerer can do it, including the various >>deities and the Jenoine, so that may have been a Jenoine added option. >> >>Jeff G. >> >> >> >Issola spoiler if anyone cares... > > > > > > > > > >In _Issola_, it is said that where ever it is (sorry AFB) Morrolan and Aleira are being held by the Jenoine, there is a River of Chaos. There's a possibility that while Dragaerans are genetically messed up Easterners, somewhere along the line, the Jenoine had to use the Chaos to create them. Throwing out my theory of Kieron having parents, maybe the ones who can control chaos were made with chaos until the Jenoine discovered a different way to genetically manipulate things. They may not have known at the time that these few could control it until, boom you have the Great and Lesser Seas. The Jenoine could have been running low on amorphia so *had* to discover a new way after they created Kieron and the others which is why they need to tap into Dragaera so to, speak. Phew. I feel like Vlad tell the ensign (sp?) about what happened to her Lt in _Orca_ (damnit AFB). I know there are probably holes in that theory, but then, what are theories w/o holes (rhetorical)? > > The River of Chaos in Issola is caused by the Jenoine tapping the Lesser Sea of Chaos (the sea that had been left unprotected, since Adron created it unintentionally). While the Jenoine can manipulate chaos to some extent (see their holding off everyone that is trying to kill them at the end of Issola), everyone (including Verra, I think) is pretty sure that chaos, Amorphia, only occurs on Dragaera. I wonder how the Jenoine learned to manipulate the chaos? Maybe they had enough time to do some rudimentary experiments when they had their little river... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 17:32:02 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:32:02 -0800 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <68F705CC-70CC-11D9-9F04-00039318B776@earthlink.net> > Now, the other thought that rolled through my head. It was mentioned > that to > the Necromancer, life and death are matters of engineering. So, if you > approach it that way, we can assume multiple planes of existence, and > to > access these you must be in various life states. (Life ace we would > consider > it.) So, to a Dragerean, death is a transition from the life state on > this > plane, to the life state on the plane that is held by the Lords of > Judgment. > Thus, Morganti weapons may not necessarily destroy the soul, they > prevent it > from transitioning to the next plane of existence, the Paths of the > Dead. > This explains why those studying Necromantic Sorcery would have a > collection > of Morganti weapons, so they can observe how that transition from > plane to > plane is stopped, as that would also lead one to how the transition is > done. > This is also supported by comments made by Verra, and the events > related in > BDP, as Verra is prevented from manifesting in that plane. We have > already > seen that gods and demons can manifest in multiple places at once, so > when > Verra was killed, that manifestation (of a part of her "soul") was > destroyed, and the ability to return to that plane was removed. Now, > what is > interesting, is that Verra can still manifest in Dragerea. So, does > this > imply that Dragerea and the East are two different planes? This is > supported > by the lack of attacks by the Jenoine on the East as a way to get to > the > Empire. > > > Jeff G. > > This is a fascinating idea. If Morganti weapons do interrupt the normal flow of Dragaeran souls to the LoJ plane rather than destroying them (as is assumed by all on Dragaera) then we have to ask: to where are these souls deflected? Can they still be reincarnated as Dragaerans? Or must they reincarnate as Easterners? Or do they go to yet another place from which they can access neither of these planes. I also like the idea of Faerie (Dragaera) being a separate plane from "the East". It explains why one has a sky and the other only "the overcast". It also, as you said, explains why the Jenoine have never tried to invade Dragaera from the East. From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Thu Jan 27 17:40:38 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:40:38 -0800 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: <41F943A9.8080106@earthlink.net> References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> <41F943A9.8080106@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9CFA3BD4-70CD-11D9-9F04-00039318B776@earthlink.net> > I liked it, too. But it raises an interesting question: how the hell > did the Jenoine manage to not notice chaos-creation abilities as one > of the "gifts" they implanted in their test subjects? Or perhaps their > experiments on humans/Dragaerans were not so precise. Also, does this > mean the Jenoine named Kieron? How did he and the other members of the > 31 tribes learn language/culture, if not from parents? If humans and > Dragaerans started out from the same stock, and the Jenoine are the > creators, why would a slightly modified variant who holds honor in > high regard want to wipe out his cousins? > > Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments > involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting > their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either > the Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three > (or more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through > mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes > parents that are not Jenoine. > > Thoughts? > > Jose > > -- > Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in > jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand > http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > > What, you never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences...? I agree with your thought that the Jenoine were gene-splicers -- they didn't create Dragaerans so much as tinker with their genome. Have you read a Larry Niven short story called WHAT GOOD ARE CHOCOLATE-COVERED MANHOLE COVERS?...? In it he posits that an alien race created several different Gardens of Eden, intended to later interbreed the descendents in order to take advantage of "hybrid vigor". What if that's what the Jenoine were up to when they created the various Dragaeran races/houses? Suppose they wanted the various breeds to, well... breed for long enough to establish certain traits, at which time they could interbreed them to produce whatever it is they're looking for? We know that it's possible for mongrelization of the Houses, however uncommon. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Jan 27 21:29:02 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:29:02 EST Subject: Chaos Theory Message-ID: Jose Marquez wrote on Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:40:25 -0500 >Going back to chaos, this means that either the >Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or >more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through >mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes >parents that are not Jenoine. >Thoughts? Hi, I think the chaos-creation abilities came from Verra without the Jenoine knowing about it. I think it happened like this: The Jenoine send at least one slave to capture a dragon. A nasty-looking dragon was captured and then Bolk dragged that dragon over to Verra. Verra gives some of her blood to the dragon without the Jenoine knowing. Three Jenoine then used pieces of that dragon to create a certain line of Dragons. Either then or later, that line included Kieron, D*livar and a third person who eventually was reincarnated as Aliera. Why do I think that? I think it is fun to speculate especially while waiting for another book to be written. I am omen-ridden. I tend to get obscure ideas based on just one word appearing in two books. I did not think of the horse as Bolk though. That was Thomas Yan's idea. I was concentrating on the word plow and missed the whole horse/bolk idea. "harness me to a horse and use me as a plow" {huh? horse=Bolk? :)} Thomas Yan http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/fandom/dbs/dbsa_athyra.html Vlad having fever dreams in Athyra: "'Did someone harness me to a horse and use me as a plow?' 'No.' 'I suspected that was a dream. Were there three little tiny people standing around me arguing about who got what pieces of my body, and what to do with the rest?'" The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 10, page 119. To a dragon, even Jenoine might seem like little tiny people. A fable in Brokedown Palace: "So I walked back until I came into the mountains. There was a dragon there, and a nasty-looking one at that. I sang the dragon to sleep so I wouldn't have to worry about it." ... "Then I picked up the dragon (I was strong in those days) and used its head to plow" ... "Of course, the dragon was pretty angry by then, and I was starting to have some trouble with him. So I went over to the Demon Goddess's house and said, 'Here, you can have this.'" Brokedown Palace, Interlude, page 197. Another thing that made me think that Vlad might have access to the memories of a real dragon was this from the book Dragon: "Even in a painting, there was something powerful and intriguing about the way those tentacle-like appendages around its neck seemed to wave and flutter--apparently at random, yet there was a purpose in it. And the expression on the dragon's face spoke of necessity, but of a certain joy as well. The wound in its side, which was closest to me, was skillfully rendered to evoke pity but not disgust, and even in the young dragon there was a certain hint that, though requiring protection, it was still a dragon, and thus not to be trifled with either. My eye kept returning to those tentacles, however, as if they were a puzzle that might be solved, revealing--what?" Dragon, paperback, Chapter 3, page 56. Bye. Linda G. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 03:49:38 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:49:38 +0000 Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We know that, in some way or another, Steve's literary history has an effect on his writing of the Vladiad. So while we know it's definitely not canon, we still should ask: To what degree did _TRIH_ and the ideas therein influence Steve's inspiration for and production of Dragaera? Illiaster seems rather like sorcery, and flux is too close to Chaos to be considered coincidental. Just not canon, that's all. So do you guys think that, in the back of Steve's mind as he was writing the Dragaeran novels, he had a race of angels with the ability to manipulate channeled flux, and one line (the most powerful of a weak and numerous generation of "angels") the ability to actually create it? Perhaps even as a means of producing some kind of universal balance that will allow for greater entropy? I mean, think of it. One of the least of the angels, if they had the ability to create raw flux, could literally take out god, providing all of the Jenoine-attacking conditions are in place: One has to shoot when they're not ready, when their attention is diverted, where they're vulnerable, and with that which they are vulnerable to, and also rely a great deal on luck. Only for god, you'd think it would be a lot more difficult. But perhaps Lucifer. And here is why I love Steve's books: Not necessarily because they advocate God-slaying, but they examine without being a philosophy paper the consequences and implications of a race of beings who are not equal, but are still a threat to, their own gods, ie, us. Jon ----Original Message Follows---- From: Grady Brandt To: "'Jeff G.'" , dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:17:32 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Marquez" > > > Some of these questions make me think that the Jenoine experiments > > involved genetic manipulation, but also limited evolution by letting > > their experiments breed. Going back to chaos, this means that either the > > Jenoine deliberately built-in chaos-creation abilities in three (or > > more) lab rats, or these lab rats gained these abilities through > > mutation (possibly Verra-aided mutation?), which in my mind takes > > parents that are not Jenoine. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Jose > > > Remember, the Sea of Chaos was not created until the event that removed > the > Jenoine from Dragerea. We have insufficent information as to the presence > of > Chaos on Dragerea prior to then. I would think that your last theory is > true, that chaos creation was a Verra aided mutation, as it is linked to > the > soul rather than the body. Also, if the Jenoine added it, there would be > more than one genetic line that could do it. Manipulation of it seems to > be > an inherent learned skill, as any sorcerer can do it, including the > various > deities and the Jenoine, so that may have been a Jenoine added option. > > Jeff G. Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul. It doesn't make sense to me that a genetic modification could create an ability to control something when the ability to create that thing is linked to the soul. I suppose it's possible, but how or why would the Jenoine have bred in that ability unless they knew of its existence and think it will be necessary. Which raises the question of what exactly were the Jenoine experimenting for. Were they trying to create a being capable of creating chaos, and all the other genetic tinkering was simply tangential to that purpose? Or is that answered somewhere in the text that I missed? From scs at di.org Fri Jan 28 05:16:04 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:16:04 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050128131604.GB25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:29:02AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Vlad having fever dreams in Athyra: > > "'Did someone harness me to a horse and use me as a plow?' > 'No.' > 'I suspected that was a dream. Were there three little tiny > people standing around me arguing about who got what pieces of my > body, and what to do with the rest?'" The second half of this (three people arguing about what pieces) really rang a bell the first time I read it, but I just can't bring it to mind. Anybody? Steve -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 05:36:36 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:36:36 +0100 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050128131604.GB25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons wrote >On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:29:02AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > Vlad having fever dreams in Athyra: > > > > "'Did someone harness me to a horse and use me as a plow?' > > 'No.' > > 'I suspected that was a dream. Were there three little tiny > > people standing around me arguing about who got what pieces of my > > body, and what to do with the rest?'" > >The second half of this (three people arguing about what pieces) >really rang a bell the first time I read it, but I just can't bring >it to mind. Anybody? > >Steve Odin and his two brothers killed a giant to make the world; the blood made the sea, the bones made the mountains, and so on. Don't know if they argued, though. You also have the three trolls in The Hobbit, who argue about how to cook the dwarves, but this isn't about the actual pieces either... :/ /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From scs at di.org Fri Jan 28 05:49:42 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:49:42 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: References: <20050128131604.GB25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050128134942.GC25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 02:36:36PM +0100, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Odin and his two brothers killed a giant to make the world; the blood made > the sea, the bones made the mountains, and so on. Don't know if they > argued, though. Thanks, that sounds like it. > You also have the three trolls in The Hobbit, who argue about how to cook > the dwarves, but this isn't about the actual pieces either... :/ Just for sheer atrocity value - did you know Tom Bombadils song: Old troll sat on a seat of stone, 'A mumblin' on an old shin-bone... works as a talking blues? -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 06:32:33 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:32:33 -0500 Subject: Necromancy In-Reply-To: <68F705CC-70CC-11D9-9F04-00039318B776@earthlink.net> References: <41F8FD27.6020208@earthlink.net> <41F922DE.8040101@earthlink.net> <68F705CC-70CC-11D9-9F04-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41FA4D01.6020405@earthlink.net> Timothy Scott wrote: >> Now, the other thought that rolled through my head. It was mentioned >> that to >> the Necromancer, life and death are matters of engineering. So, if you >> approach it that way, we can assume multiple planes of existence, and to >> access these you must be in various life states. (Life ace we would >> consider >> it.) So, to a Dragerean, death is a transition from the life state on >> this >> plane, to the life state on the plane that is held by the Lords of >> Judgment. >> Thus, Morganti weapons may not necessarily destroy the soul, they >> prevent it >> from transitioning to the next plane of existence, the Paths of the >> Dead. >> This explains why those studying Necromantic Sorcery would have a >> collection >> of Morganti weapons, so they can observe how that transition from >> plane to >> plane is stopped, as that would also lead one to how the transition >> is done. >> This is also supported by comments made by Verra, and the events >> related in >> BDP, as Verra is prevented from manifesting in that plane. We have >> already >> seen that gods and demons can manifest in multiple places at once, so >> when >> Verra was killed, that manifestation (of a part of her "soul") was >> destroyed, and the ability to return to that plane was removed. Now, >> what is >> interesting, is that Verra can still manifest in Dragerea. So, does this >> imply that Dragerea and the East are two different planes? This is >> supported >> by the lack of attacks by the Jenoine on the East as a way to get to the >> Empire. >> >> >> Jeff G. >> >> > > This is a fascinating idea. If Morganti weapons do interrupt the > normal flow of Dragaeran souls to the LoJ plane rather than destroying > them (as is assumed by all on Dragaera) then we have to ask: to where > are these souls deflected? Can they still be reincarnated as > Dragaerans? Or must they reincarnate as Easterners? Or do they go to > yet another place from which they can access neither of these planes. > > I also like the idea of Faerie (Dragaera) being a separate plane from > "the East". It explains why one has a sky and the other only "the > overcast". It also, as you said, explains why the Jenoine have never > tried to invade Dragaera from the East. It seems to me that the Jenoine can invade Dragaera anywhere they want; their goal isn't simply to enter the planet and hang out. Their partial motivation seems to be to access, tap and experiment with the chaos available in Dragaera. Since this chaos is not available in the East, there's no point in manifesting there. Remember, the Necromancer was asked if she could keep the Jenoine out of the area, and she said something like only with great effort, more time, and she might fail anyway. And the Necromancer is better at this than Verra (or even Sethra, I assume). It seems that the LoJ, the Orb, Sethra Lavode, the Necromancer, et alii are protecting the places of power the Jenoine might be interested in: the Paths of the Dead, Dzur Mountain, the Greater Sea of Chaos and, recently, the Lesser Sea of Chaos. As for the overcast not existing out East, well, there is the fact that they don't do sorcery, and although not canonical, to date, Steve has not contradicted the notion found in the introduction to Dzurlord that the overcast is a result of sorcerous pollution. Also, the Eastern Mountains may make it difficult for the magical smog to cross into the East. But seeing as traveling East is a fairly easy exercise for Vlad, Morrolan, Miklos, Sandor, others who trade with the East (Valabar?), I can't imagine that there is a dimensional difference between East and West. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Jan 28 06:39:31 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:39:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050128134942.GC25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050128131604.GB25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050128134942.GC25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: @> > You also have the three trolls in The Hobbit, who argue about how to cook @> > the dwarves, but this isn't about the actual pieces either... :/ @> @> Just for sheer atrocity value - did you know Tom Bombadils song: @> @> Old troll sat on a seat of stone, @> 'A mumblin' on an old shin-bone... @> @> works as a talking blues? Hey, that's Sam's song! From lqmiller at ev1.net Fri Jan 28 07:50:24 2005 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:50:24 -0600 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <03f401c503fd$5fb1e370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050126170216.01ff1648@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050128094850.018b7638@mail.ev1.net> At 03:18 PM 1/26/2005 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: >To: >Subject: RE: How Karma Works On Dragaera > > >>We have seen an Easterner be revived from the dead though. Have we seen > >>one's soul captured in a Great Weapon? > > >On the contrary. > >Louann, grinning evilly. > >I admit it, I don't get the gag here. Is this a reference to Vlad having a >Dragaeran soul? No, just to an Easterner 'soul' (in the sense of a person) having a Great Weapon. re the Louann/Loraan confusion -- I used to have a Tae Kwon Do master who pronounced my name pretty much like that. From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Jan 28 08:40:19 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:40:19 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory2 Message-ID: <48BA9F29.477E7796.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/27/2005 8:26:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose Marquez writes: >The River of Chaos in Issola is caused by the Jenoine tapping the Lesser >Sea of Chaos Was it? I don't think I remember that. -C chaos to >some extent (see their holding off everyone that is trying to kill them >at the end of Issola), everyone (including Verra, I think) is pretty >sure that chaos, Amorphia, only occurs on Dragaera. I wonder how the >Jenoine learned to manipulate the chaos? Maybe they had enough time to >do some rudimentary experiments when they had their little river... > >Jose > >-- >Jose Marquez ? ? ? ? ? ? | There are 10 types of people in >jhereg69 at earthlink.net ? | the world: those who understand >http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Jan 28 08:47:44 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:47:44 -0500 Subject: just 'cause Message-ID: <09A0E4E6.0CF783D8.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:29:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >"Even in a painting, there was something powerful and intriguing >about the way those tentacle-like appendages around its neck seemed >to wave and flutter--apparently at random, yet there was a purpose >in it. ?And the expression on the dragon's face spoke of necessity, >but of a certain joy as well. ?The wound in its side, which was >closest to me, was skillfully rendered to evoke pity but not disgust, >and even in the young dragon there was a certain hint that, though >requiring protection, it was still a dragon, and thus not to be >trifled with either. > > ? My eye kept returning to those tentacles, however, as if they >were a puzzle that might be solved, revealing--what?" > >Dragon, paperback, Chapter 3, page 56. > >Bye. > >Linda G. > ? > I just read that part last night in my re-readings. :o) -C From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 09:01:19 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050128170120.37589.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:16:47 -0800, Timothy Scott > wrote: > > > > > 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. > She > > mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that > > disbanding that order was a mistake. > > His expected lifespan might be an issue here. Not considering that Sethra and the empress know about Laszlo (to put it mildly). Jerry Friedman apologizes if someone's said that already. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 28 09:10:58 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:10:58 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <20050128170120.37589.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050128170120.37589.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:01:19 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >> > 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. >> She >> > mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that >> > disbanding that order was a mistake. >> >> His expected lifespan might be an issue here. > Not considering that Sethra and the empress know about Laszlo (to > put it mildly). > Jerry Friedman apologizes if someone's said that already. Why not? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 10:20:31 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:20:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050128182032.67199.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:01:19 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > wrote: > > >> > 2) I think that Sethra has been training Vlad to become a Lavode. > >> She > >> > mentioned in the story that she and the empress both believe that > >> > disbanding that order was a mistake. > >> > >> His expected lifespan might be an issue here. > > > Not considering that Sethra and the empress know about Laszlo (to > > put it mildly). > > Jerry Friedman apologizes if someone's said that already. > > Why not? Since they know that Laszlo has lived at least a couple of centuries, they might expect that Vlad could do the same. In other words, we have no certain information on what Vlad's expected lifespan is. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 10:20:07 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:20:07 +0000 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050128131604.GB25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Dragaera. Three people may be Kieron, Dolivar, and the Sorceror (I don't know Aliera's past name.)
 
----Original Message Follows---- From: Steve Simmons To: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com CC: dragaera at dragaera.info, tky1 at rcn.com Subject: Re: Chaos Theory Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:16:04 -0500 On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:29:02AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Vlad having fever dreams in Athyra: > > "'Did someone harness me to a horse and use me as a plow?' > 'No.' > 'I suspected that was a dream. Were there three little tiny > people standing around me arguing about who got what pieces of my > body, and what to do with the rest?'" The second half of this (three people arguing about what pieces) really rang a bell the first time I read it, but I just can't bring it to mind. Anybody? Steve -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 28 10:34:01 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:34:01 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <20050128182032.67199.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050128182032.67199.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:20:31 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >> > Not considering that Sethra and the empress know about Laszlo (to >> > put it mildly). >> > Jerry Friedman apologizes if someone's said that already. >> >> Why not? > Since they know that Laszlo has lived at least a couple of centuries, > they might expect that Vlad could do the same. In other words, we > have no certain information on what Vlad's expected lifespan is. We know one Dragaeran who has been around hundreds of thousands of years. Finding an example of an Easterner living a couple of centuries (which isn't thought of as a long time by Dragaerans) doesn't remove that question. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jan 28 12:23:08 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:23:08 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory Message-ID: <2981584C.1D3E4A46.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 1/28/2005 8:16:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Simmons writes: >On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:29:02AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> Vlad having fever dreams in Athyra: >> >> 'I suspected that was a dream. Were there three little tiny >> people standing around me arguing about who got what pieces of my >> body, and what to do with the rest?'" > >The second half of this (three people arguing about what pieces) >really rang a bell the first time I read it, but I just can't bring >it to mind. Anybody? That scene appears in the second half of Zelazny's Amber series. --KG From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Jan 28 14:13:19 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:13:19 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory2 Message-ID: there is a long discussion about them protecting the greater sea but forgetting about protecting the lesser sea... or something like that. but the river definitely comes from the lesser sea. of chaos. MedCat7 at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info 01/28/2005 11:40 cc: AM Subject: Re: Chaos Theory2 In a message dated 1/27/2005 8:26:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose Marquez writes: >The River of Chaos in Issola is caused by the Jenoine tapping the Lesser >Sea of Chaos Was it? I don't think I remember that. -C chaos to >some extent (see their holding off everyone that is trying to kill them >at the end of Issola), everyone (including Verra, I think) is pretty >sure that chaos, Amorphia, only occurs on Dragaera. I wonder how the >Jenoine learned to manipulate the chaos? Maybe they had enough time to >do some rudimentary experiments when they had their little river... > >Jose > >-- >Jose Marquez ? ? ? ? ? ? | There are 10 types of people in >jhereg69 at earthlink.net ? | the world: those who understand >http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > > > From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 15:11:51 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:11:51 -0600 Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <198.36984872.2f1f3c74@aol.com> References: <198.36984872.2f1f3c74@aol.com> Message-ID: <41FAC6B7.9020604@comcast.net> It's a Zyliss, I think. A good cookware store should have one. And, no, if that's how you make nut flour, it won't make it. Flourless cakes, FWIW, are made from ground nuts (nut flour) and other ingredients which are folded into beaten egg whites. As you may recall, these cakes are anything but light, but they sure are good . . . FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >Mia McDavid wrote on Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:29:49 -0600 > > > >>No amount of roasting will get rid of the oil. However, you can grind >>nuts. In a food processor, you do it in short bursts and stop before >>the oil weeps out and glues everything together. >> >> > >Hi, > >That is what I did. The peanuts ground down pretty small, so you could >not really tell you were crunching on them in the bread, but they were >not powder (flour). After reading the website Scott Schultz wrote about, >I think I added almost nut meal (peanut) to cracked wheat bread. > >Scott Schultz wrote on Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:52:26 -0800 > > > >>http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html >> >> > >Mia McDavid wrote on Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:29:49 -0600 > > >>The best way, though, is with a nutgrinder. It actually shaves the nuts >>with tiny blades and makes a very fluffy nut flour. It's also good for >>cheese, chocolate, etc. I love mine . . . >> >> > >What is the name, make or model of your machine? Someone I know might >have one. > >But it probably still would not be nut flour. "Nut flours are ground >from the cake that remains after oils are pressed from nuts" >http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html > >I checked two grocery stores nearby and they do not sell almond flour >or any other kind of nut flour. > >http://www.foodsubs.com/Nutmeals.html says "Nut flour lacks the gluten >that baked goods need to rise, so in those recipes substitute no more >than 1/4 of the wheat flour with nut flour." There is a an 800 number >for ordering flour...I did not realize there were so many different >nut flours....so the question comes back to > >Rednuts > >Bye. > >Linda G. > > > From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 18:29:48 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:29:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? In-Reply-To: <000e01c5047f$885fe1f0$7733a8c0@ansoft.com> Message-ID: <20050129022948.69138.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Charlie and Johne are both asking about the Dvorak keyboard. Folks, I am not knocking that, but I want to be sure you are aware of another alternative: speech recognition software. I am not typing this letter, I'm dictating it. I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking Professional, version 7.3 (version 8 is out now). It sure isn't perfect, but it sure beats the hell out of the typing that was beating the hell out of my hands. Disclaimer, if you like: I am not a totally unbiased participant. From 1990 to 2001, when the company that had bought us went bankrupt, I was the Chief Linguist for Dragon Systems. I used the program then because I enjoyed it, because it was helpful, and because in principle it was the right thing to "eat our own cooking". Now I use it because I have to. I don't read this list as often as I might, so if either of you -- or anyone else out there -- wants more information from me about it, write to me at this address as well as writing to the list. -- Mark A. Mandel Chief Linguist, Dragon Systems, Inc. (R.I.P.), 1990-2001 [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] --- Charlie Arnold wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Johne Cook [mailto:johne.cook at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:02 AM > To: Dragaera list > Subject: QWERTY vs Dvorak - anyone made the switch? > I'm right there. I'm feeling some ghost pain in my hands, nothing much, > but enough to make me just a bit nervous. And then I remembered reading > the Piers Anthony (who is nothing if not prolific) switched to Dvorak > and was more prolific and effective than ever. And then I realized that > I was again checking out various Dvorak articles. > > I'm standing here at the edge of the cliff and am curious if any of you > have taken the plunge, and if you have any tips or considerations beyond > the obvious. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 18:38:53 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:38:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! Message-ID: <20050129023854.45766.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Casey Rousseau wrote: [...] > Mark, I wonder if it's worth adding anything to your Births, Deaths, & > Injuries(2) page yet for this? Then again, you may want to wait until Steve > fills in a few more details. ve-ry interesting! thanks! m by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 18:52:39 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:52:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <200501241803.j0OI35am022827@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050129025239.94683.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? RAISES the question. beg, vb.: 6. To take for granted without warrant; esp. in to beg the question: to take for granted the matter in dispute, to assume without proof. -- Oxford English Dictionary -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel, who is catching up on this list and collecting the posts in this thread for possible use on Cracks and Shards __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Jan 28 19:01:24 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:01:24 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050129025239.94683.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050129030134.QOAG21241.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> -----Original Message----- From: Mark A. Mandel [mailto:thnidu at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 6:53 PM To: Chris Olson - SunPS; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: duh! --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? >RAISES the question. >beg, vb.: > 6. To take for granted without warrant; esp. in to beg the question: to take for granted the matter in dispute, to >assume without proof. > -- Oxford English Dictionary This is an interesting point. I generally uses "begs the question" as denoting a argument fallacy. But every once in a while I want to use it as "raises the question", and I think there is at least a popular movement to change the meaning of the phrase. I don't think I would object to the meaning being changed, since intuitively I can see "that begs the question" as meaning "what you have just said is akin to begging me to ask you this follow-up question". I don't know what the etymology is (perhaps both meanings were in usage at some point), but I'm inclined to use it both ways, despite what the OED says. At one point the OED defined a whale as a fish; meanings change with use. Shawn From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:22:09 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:22:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1cb301c5024b$4e0c2a30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20050129032210.37117.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Scott Schultz wrote: > Vlad may be in semi-retirement but I'd say the conclusion of Orca shows that > he's perfectly willing to do "work" if it can be shown to be in his best > interests. "Work" is not just the taking of a life, it's quite specifically murder for hire. And that isn't what happens at the end of Orca. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:30:30 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:30:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <45C74BC8.7E185E12.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050129033031.5610.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/2005 9:54:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jot Powers > writes: > >I think it comes from a quote where Savn says that he keeps his soul > >in a box so he can't be killed. ?I had always discarded this as > >superstition of his vassals and without a basis in fact. ?However, > >I suppose it could be true. ?(Or maybe it was Savn's sister, whose > >name is escaping me, and I'm AFB) I'm pretty sure that that is a fairly standard component of world folklore. I seem to recall something like that in Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books. > Her name is Polyi (I don't know her whole name as it is only mentioned once > and I am also AFB). Polinice? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:31:22 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:31:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: good news! In-Reply-To: <16EB2DCC.0A95A4FD.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050129033123.5731.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > When I came home from putting my little cat to sleep (so many memories that I > won't share cause you probably don't want to read them), Warm Thoughts heading your way. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:37:50 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:37:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (Now back on topic) In-Reply-To: <194.37354ea2.2f2a92c0@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050129033751.6664.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > Dragaera has a system set up whereby the Feudal system is run by a benevolent > Monarch who only has the best interests of the State in mind. The orb sees to > that as well as Verra and the gods. Are you sure of that? We have only seen two emperors, a decadent Phoenix and a reborn Phoenix. I seem to recall some mention of an emperor who was about on the sanity and benevolence level of Vlad the Impaler. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:39:57 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:39:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reincarnation In-Reply-To: <200501272200.j0RM0Tam028294@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050129033957.69610.qmail@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Which begs the question: ... raises ... -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:42:11 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy In-Reply-To: <20050127222708.GD23600@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050129034211.10229.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Grady Brandt wrote: > > Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul . . . Steve Simmons wrote: > Perhaps chaos manipulation was an unintended result of an attempt to > do something else. Not even the Jenoine are immune to Murphy's Law. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:52:53 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:52:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <094401c502fa$4bee11a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20050129035253.96585.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Scott Schultz wrote: > I can guess that if > Vlad was interested in a cross-species romance that Lady Teldra could easily > have been the object of his affection, but he's never shown any interest in > that. At some point Vlad describes Lady Teldra's effect on him as beauty without sexual arousal, which he finds unusual. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 20:06:45 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:06:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <20050129040645.14333.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > --- Grady Brandt quoted somebody unnamed: > > > > > > > Well, the living in the woods bit is more of a reaction to the larger > part > > > of the Jhereg wanting him dead than from unresolved marital issues. If he > > > wasn't on the lam, he'd be living in his county or duchy or whatever > > > official sinecure it is that the Empress awarded to him. In a way, being > > And at the end of Issola we see him about to go into Valabar's with a Great > Weapon at his side. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 20:12:12 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:12:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hey Steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050129041212.48001.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Jeff G." wrote: > A love ballad involving a "little hairy testicle" comes to mind, but in the > interest of the fleeting remainders of my sanity, it was squashed. OUCH!!!! Oh, you meant the BALLAD... mark by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Fri Jan 28 20:29:32 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:29:32 -0800 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <20050129035253.96585.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050129035253.96585.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5F8B21FF-71AE-11D9-9B82-00039318B776@earthlink.net> >> I can guess that if >> Vlad was interested in a cross-species romance that Lady Teldra could >> easily >> have been the object of his affection, but he's never shown any >> interest in >> that. > > At some point Vlad describes Lady Teldra's effect on him as beauty > without > sexual arousal, which he finds unusual. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > Son of a gun! I had totally forgotten reading that. Still, he could have changed his mind later. Ah, well. It was just a thought. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 28 20:57:03 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 20:57:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera In-Reply-To: <20050129033031.5610.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050129033031.5610.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > Her name is Polyi (I don't know her whole name as it is only mentioned once > > and I am also AFB). > > Polinice? Polynices is an ill-omened name - I hope Savn and his sister don't end up dying by the other's hand. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 28 21:11:29 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:11:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050129030134.QOAG21241.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050129030134.QOAG21241.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > From: Mark A. Mandel [mailto:thnidu at yahoo.com] > > --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > >> Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? > > >RAISES the question. > > > This is an interesting point. I generally uses "begs the question" as > denoting a argument fallacy. But every once in a while I want to use it as > "raises the question", and I think there is at least a popular movement to > change the meaning of the phrase. I don't think I would object to the > meaning being changed, since intuitively I can see "that begs the question" > as meaning "what you have just said is akin to begging me to ask you this > follow-up question". I don't know what the etymology is (perhaps both > meanings were in usage at some point), but I'm inclined to use it both ways, > despite what the OED says. At one point the OED defined a whale as a fish; > meanings change with use. This strikes me as very very evil - there's a phrase that has a unique useful meaning ("making a fallacious argument by assuming the conclusion") not easily expressed otherwise, with a long pedigree >from a phrase ("petitio principii" - "requesting the start" or something) one sees on occasion; and there's a meaning which can be easily expressed idiomatically otherwise ("raises the question", "suggests", "leads to", "brings up", ...) - and people are stomping the former with the latter. At some point we prescriptivists may have to give up on this phrase but it will mean a loss of current expressivity and a loss of comprehensibility of texts. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 21:15:44 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:15:44 -0700 Subject: Chaos and RE: Necromancy References: <20050129034211.10229.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" To: "Steve Simmons" ; "Grady Brandt" Cc: "'Jeff G.'" ; Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: Re: Chaos and RE: Necromancy > > Grady Brandt wrote: > > > Perhaps chaos manipulation is just a function of having a soul . . . > > Steve Simmons wrote: > > Perhaps chaos manipulation was an unintended result of an attempt to > > do something else. > > Not even the Jenoine are immune to Murphy's Law. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > Murphy was an optimist. Jeff G. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Jan 28 21:19:50 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:19:50 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050129052005.XSIX8778.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@Soltan> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:11 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: duh! On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > From: Mark A. Mandel [mailto:thnidu at yahoo.com] > > --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > >> Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? > > >RAISES the question. > > > This is an interesting point. I generally uses "begs the question" as > denoting a argument fallacy. But every once in a while I want to use > it as "raises the question", and I think there is at least a popular > movement to change the meaning of the phrase. I don't think I would > object to the meaning being changed, since intuitively I can see "that begs the question" > as meaning "what you have just said is akin to begging me to ask you > this follow-up question". I don't know what the etymology is (perhaps > both meanings were in usage at some point), but I'm inclined to use it > both ways, despite what the OED says. At one point the OED defined a > whale as a fish; meanings change with use. >>This strikes me as very very evil - there's a phrase that has a unique useful meaning ("making a fallacious argument by >>assuming the >>conclusion") not easily expressed otherwise, with a long pedigree from a phrase ("petitio principii" - "requesting the >>start" or something) one sees on occasion; and there's a meaning which can be easily expressed idiomatically otherwise >>("raises the question", "suggests", "leads to", "brings up", ...) - and people are stomping the former with the latter. >>At some point we prescriptivists may have to give up on this phrase but it will mean a loss of current expressivity and >>a loss of comprehensibility of texts. Well, I'm not really advocating "giving up" the logical meaning of the phrase...just perhaps not caring so much about when someone chooses to use it in the way that seems most intuitive to them. I can easily see myself using both meanings in conversations, just switching up based on the audience and context. Which begs the question "Which audiences and contexts are appropriate for each use?" :} Shawn From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 22:02:18 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:02:18 +0100 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <20050129035253.96585.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking: >To: Scott Schultz , dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post >Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:52:53 -0800 (PST) > > >--- Scott Schultz wrote: > > > I can guess that if > > Vlad was interested in a cross-species romance that Lady Teldra could >easily > > have been the object of his affection, but he's never shown any interest >in > > that. > >At some point Vlad describes Lady Teldra's effect on him as beauty without >sexual arousal, which he finds unusual. > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] But then he wasn't falling in love with her. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if the beholder changes, so may the beauty. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 29 07:07:53 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:07:53 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050129030134.QOAG21241.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <000201c50614$4f5d3bf0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Shawn Burns wrote: > This is an interesting point. I generally uses "begs the question" as > denoting a argument fallacy. But every once in a while I want to use > it as "raises the question", and I think there is at least a popular > movement to change the meaning of the phrase. I don't think I would > object to the meaning being changed, since intuitively I can see > "that begs the question" as meaning "what you have just said is akin > to begging me to ask you this follow-up question". I don't know what > the etymology is (perhaps both meanings were in usage at some point), > but I'm inclined to use it both ways, despite what the OED says. At > one point the OED defined a whale as a fish; meanings change with use. > > Shawn It is commonly used to mean "raise the question", basically because lots of people don't know what it really means. Trouble is, those are pretty close to opposites, and the original meaning is becoming obscure for no gain. From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 29 07:12:13 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 08:12:13 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c50614$ea1870b0$667ba8c0@Dad133> > At some point Vlad describes Lady Teldra's effect on him as beauty > without sexual arousal, which he finds unusual. Which implies that he has become sexually aroused by Dragaerans in the past. With his brothels at least, he probably used their services. > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Jan 29 07:38:05 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:38:05 -0500 Subject: How Karma Works On Dragaera Message-ID: <27EA7BFA.1DEF4293.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/28/2005 10:30:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Mark A. Mandel" writes: > >> Her name is Polyi (I don't know her whole name as it is only mentioned once >> and I am also AFB). > >Polinice? > That looks right. -C > >-- Mark A. Mandel > ? http://cracksandshards.com > ? a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > ? [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? ?Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 29 10:15:33 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:15:33 EST Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1a8.303fd59b.2f2d2cc5@aol.com> Today's magic lesson is from the sorceress and Dzurlord Tazendra on recognizing what a dull black rod signifies and protecting yourself and a friend from it using (Orb before the Interregnum) sorcery. "a dull black rod, about a meter in length, of the type often used by sorcerers to concentrate, or even contain, particularly potent spells." ... "Locked up in the rod in Laral's hand was the embodiment of that spell called The Quick Road by those in the Jhereg who practiced assassination through sorcery--the spell was so named because it was reputed to be one of the quickest known paths to the afterlife: It acted by instantly freezing all of the liquids within the fairly small radius of the spell's effect, wherefore it was only necessary to direct it at the victim's heart for death to follow almost before the victim could be aware." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-third, pages 345, 346 "she knew very well what the rod signified, and quickly cast a rune of protection over her and her friend, and such was her skill in the magical sciences that, although she felt a momentary chill, there was no other effect of the enchantment. Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-third, page 351 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 29 11:08:00 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:08:00 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <97.57ee698a.2f2d3910@aol.com> Today's cooking extract is from Lord Adron's army kitchen outside Dragaera City. "It was not large, as such breakfast go--it was Adron's opinion that he, and, by extension, his troops, would be fight better if not weighed down by a large meal, although some sustenance was certainly required. Hence, each guest was given warmed bread and butter, a ration of potatoes, a piece of dried whitefruit, and a slice of roasted kethna. There was also blood-tea in good quantity (Adron being superstitious about the name, had forced himself to enjoy the acrid tang) and klava." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-Four, page 362 Another food mystery: whitefruit Since it was breakfast, I was thinking grapefruit or some citrus. But whitefruit Earth version could also be like very juicy pears. Whitefruit does not seem to be just a breakfast food. "Mario, having finished the piece of kethna, bit into a whitefruit, somehow contriving to eat it without, as usually happens to victims of this fruit, finding that it has exploded into his face or down his chin. He chewed thoughtfully, brought his napkin up to his lips and expelled a few seeds, then swallowed. Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Nineteenth, pages 289-290. What do you think might be the closest Earth version of whitefruit? Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Jan 29 11:18:37 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:18:37 EST Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <156.498d04d7.2f2d3b8d@aol.com> FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST >"I don't know. I know that someone else is lord over in Whiterock, >though. A Dzurlord. We hear stories about him." >The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 5, page 58 >Would Vlad have gone through Whiterock because of what Savn had >said on that page or had Vlad already come through Whiterock? Hi, I guess Vlad did come through Whiterock before he met Savn. Vlad speaking to Savn. "'The smell.' 'Smell?' 'It must be flax oil.' 'Oh. Linseed oil. I guess I must be used to it.' 'That must have been what they served the last place I ate, half a day east of here.' 'That would be Whiterock. I've been there twice.' 'Vlad nodded. 'I didn't really notice the taste in the stew, but it made the salad interesting.' Savn thought he detected a hint of irony in the other's tone but he wasn't certain. 'Some types of flax are used for cooking, some we use to make linen.' 'Linen?' 'Yes.' 'You cook with the same stuff you make clothes out of?' 'No, not the same. It's different.' 'They probably made a mistake, then,' said Vlad. 'That would account for the salad.' Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the true, true salad flax will melt--' 'Never mind,' said Vlad. 'I'm certain you can tell.' The Book of Athyra, Athyra, Chapter 1, pages 14-15. So Vlad may have met the Dzurlord who is lord of Whiterock or he may have just had an interesting salad in Whiterock. Savn says: "I don't know. I know that someone else is lord over in Whiterock, though. A Dzurlord. We hear stories about him." Vlad says: 'Oh? What kind of stories?' Maybe Vlad was worried that the stories might be about some interesting things that happened in Whiterock recently. Bye. Linda G. From lqmiller at ev1.net Sat Jan 29 18:23:45 2005 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:23:45 -0600 Subject: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <20050129040645.14333.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050129202105.018b9270@mail.ev1.net> At 08:06 PM 1/28/2005 -0800, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > And at the end of Issola we see him about to go into [spoiler extremely > public location] with a [spoiler object] at his side. I'm relatively new here -- how evil is Steve? Because the evillest and most unlikely plot twist I can think of would be for that _not_ to be a setup for a Dashiel Hammet-like opening to the next book. Louann, just saying. From bonham15 at cox.net Sat Jan 29 18:39:03 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:39:03 -0600 Subject: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050129202105.018b9270@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <000301c50674$dd30e7f0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> nah. steve gave his boy a shiny new toy, and we all know the character has the absolute balls to use it (testifying against your house, under the orb, feeding a big boss off to another kingdom to get out from under your own freakish sense of honor)..unless he does time/setting jumping again, we are about to see vlad buck the house of jhereg and make it stick. not unlike barritt bucking the empire and making it stick... andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louann Miller" To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post > At 08:06 PM 1/28/2005 -0800, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> > And at the end of Issola we see him about to go into [spoiler extremely >> public location] with a [spoiler object] at his side. > > I'm relatively new here -- how evil is Steve? Because the evillest and > most unlikely plot twist I can think of would be for that _not_ to be a > setup for a Dashiel Hammet-like opening to the next book. > > Louann, just saying. > > From Bato001 at aol.com Sat Jan 29 20:04:32 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:04:32 -0500 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (Now back on topic) Message-ID: <77A8E3B6.5D0DE268.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 1/28/2005 10:37:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Mark A. Mandel" writes: >--- Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > >> Dragaera has a system set up whereby the Feudal system is run by a benevolent >> Monarch who only has the best interests of the State in mind. The orb sees to >> that as well as Verra and the gods. > >Are you sure of that? We have only seen two emperors, a decadent Phoenix and a >reborn Phoenix. I seem to recall some mention of an emperor who was about on >the sanity and benevolence level of Vlad the Impaler. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > Don't seem to recall that, Sorry. Heh, Heh. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From books at bofh.com Sun Jan 30 19:39:54 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:39:54 -0700 Subject: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <000301c50674$dd30e7f0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050129202105.018b9270@mail.ev1.net> <000301c50674$dd30e7f0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <20050131033954.GA7267@bofh.com> On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 08:39:03PM -0600, bonham15 wrote: > nah. steve gave his boy a shiny new toy, and we all know the character has > the absolute balls to use it (testifying against your house, under the orb, > feeding a big boss off to another kingdom to get out from under your own > freakish sense of honor)..unless he does time/setting jumping again, we are > about to see vlad buck the house of jhereg and make it stick. not unlike > barritt bucking the empire and making it stick... I hate to say it, but I think we're going to see another time jump. My prediction has been the time between the end of Teckla/Phoenix to Orca. The time that Vlad looses a part of his little finger...to a Dzur... One of the few joys I have had is accurately predicting that the next book is Dzur. That is, of course, after it started out as Tiassa. I presume it still may morph, at which time I will still gloat about being right for a short period of time....but only for the requirements of my self esteem. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Sun Jan 30 19:41:32 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:41:32 -0700 Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (Now back on topic) In-Reply-To: <77A8E3B6.5D0DE268.0015B39F@aol.com> References: <77A8E3B6.5D0DE268.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050131034132.GB7267@bofh.com> On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 11:04:32PM -0500, Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/28/2005 10:37:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Mark A. Mandel" writes: > > >--- Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Dragaera has a system set up whereby the Feudal system is run by a benevolent > >> Monarch who only has the best interests of the State in mind. The orb sees to > >> that as well as Verra and the gods. > > > >Are you sure of that? We have only seen two emperors, a decadent Phoenix and a > >reborn Phoenix. I seem to recall some mention of an emperor who was about on > >the sanity and benevolence level of Vlad the Impaler. Well, we have Norathar (sp?) via the attributes of the last of the Viscount. But, naturally, Mark knew this. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 30 19:59:41 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:59:41 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <15a.493c1e60.2f2f072d@aol.com> Today's cooking extract is from a breakfast served to Emperor Tortaalik I in Dragaera City. "The Emperor, who was eating a smoked fish which had been covered with whipped and fried hen's eggs," Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-four, page 374 Hmmm, scrambled eggs over smoked fish? From rone at ennui.org Sun Jan 30 21:14:44 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:14:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050131051445.05A4826CBE@boredom.ennui.org> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: What do you think is the closest Earth substitute for rednuts? Pecans. rone -- Remember Remember It's tilted From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 31 06:23:58 2005 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:23:58 -0500 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? References: <20050131051445.05A4826CBE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <41FE3F7E.A6660EFE@ix.netcom.com> Well, I just bought a box of hazelnut hot instant cereal from a company called Carbsens. The cereal is definitely red in color. Jim rone wrote: > > FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: > What do you think is the closest Earth substitute for rednuts? > > Pecans. > > rone > -- > Remember > Remember > It's tilted -- ! Jim Katz ! From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 31 08:26:24 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:26:24 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050129032210.37117.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2a1401c507b1$9b6328e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >"Work" is not just the taking of a life, it's quite specifically murder for >hire. And that isn't what happens at the end of Orca. On the contrary, that is EXACTLY what happens at the end of Orca. Once the main storyline has played out, Vlad still needs the deed to Mother's house and whats-his-name, the lieutenant, needs his revenge on the guy below him who betrayed him. (I'm AFB, apologies for not supplying names. I don't recall if Loftis was the "good cop" or the "bad cop".) Basically, the question is "Did Vlad do something he would have done anyway or did he do it specifically because Loftis(?) helped him out by getting the deed and more or less agreeing to get off his back about the rest of his activities during the story?" You can say it's a "favor for a favor" but that's just the definition of bartering. ("I'll paint your house if you fix my car.") The presence or absence of coin is irrelevant. There's no question in my mind that Vlad was doing murder for hire. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 09:04:58 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:04:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050129202105.018b9270@mail.ev1.net> Message-ID: <20050131170458.74178.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Louann Miller wrote: > At 08:06 PM 1/28/2005 -0800, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > And at the end of Issola we see him about to go into [spoiler > extremely > > public location] with a [spoiler object] at his side. > > I'm relatively new here -- how evil is Steve? Because the evillest and > most > unlikely plot twist I can think of would be for that _not_ to be a setup > > for a Dashiel Hammet-like opening to the next book. Not to call anybody evil, but this is the guy who wrote _Taltos_ after _Teckla_ had left us hanging about the revolution and Vlad's marriage, and who wrote _Dragon_ after _Orca_ had left us hanging about Savn's recovery, and then covered Savn's return to his family in a couple sentences in _Issola_. (Unlike another poster, I'm not expecting to see the reunion in any more detail, though I'd like to.) I think it would be *exactly* like Steve to not have the upcoming book follow _Issola_ chronologically, and also to have whatever book does follow it start with no reference to the visit to Valabar's, and mention it casually or pseudo-casually later, maybe with a "heh". But I'm offering no predictions for the next book, except that it will be called _Dzur_ unless the author changes his mind. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 31 09:35:22 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:35:22 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2ade01c507bb$3db26f30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >That's a strict way to look at it. Personally, I think there's a bit of >difference between mutual back-scratching, even of a more sinister sort, >and accepting hard currency in return for laying someone out. I think this is splitting hairs. You could make an argument that Loftis would see that Vlad's request was a reasonable one (especially given Dragaeran attitudes towards the eviction of little old ladies) and therefore would have followed through with it regardless of Vlad's agreement to do some "work" for him in return. There's no question of Vlad being "hired". The negotiation between Vlad and Loftis (hope I got his name right) is a direct parallel to the negotiations he did in the Jhereg for similar types of "work". The only question is Vlad's motiviation. If he did it because Loftis helped him and conversely would NOT have done it if Loftis had NOT helped him then it's "murder for hire". If you have any doubts, try re-casting the story in terms of a modern-day policeman agreeing to help a known hit-man out of a jam. He then gives said hit-man all the details needed to take out a corrupt cop and the hit-man in turn kills the corrupt cop. Faced with a real-life example like that, would you really say that the hit-man was just doing a favor and not doing "murder for hire"? >Murder-for-barter can only be agreeable when both parties have something the >other wants. Murder-for-hire can be agreeable anytime someone has sufficient >money, which is probably rather more often, and just feels a little more >immoral than the preceding activity. As to degrees of morality, this just comes back to the post I made the other day about Vlad's transformation into a "rogue" or Robin Hood style character. That is, one who commits acts of crime or immorality with charm and wit and ultimately in the name of a greater good or at least in the name of "justice". The term "Justice" being interpreted as "getting what's coming to them" as opposed to absolute legal or moral justice. >Admittedly, it's not much better or different, but apparently enough so for >it to be acceptable to Vlad. Vlad may not be Mario, but he's essentially in Mario's position now. Instead of being a petty thug at the beck and call of the Organization, he's in a position to be choosy about the "work" he accepts and only do "work" that falls within his code of ethics. In the Loftis case, it's not just about being "paid" by the acquisition of the deed. It's also about Vlad acting as the hand of Justice, slapping down someone who's earned a comeuppance. THAT'S what ultimately makes it palatable or morally grey. Not whether Loftis pays him or not. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 31 09:56:13 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:56:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Has Vlad met Mario? Message-ID: <200501311756.j0VHuDam014541@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> I'll admit I don't have the book in front of me, but it was pointed out to me this weekend that, on page 50 of Jhereg (Ace? Tor edition?) Vlad mentions Mario in a quote I never took much notice of before. Vlad is talking about Aliera, I believe, and says she had a graceful walk "reminiscent of Mario" (if anyone has the book handy, an exact quote would be appreciated). Our question was: How the hell would Vlad know how Mario walks if he's never seen the guy? Any guesses? Just a thought to get the week moving. :) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 31 10:09:59 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:09:59 -0500 Subject: Has Vlad met Mario? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:56:13 PST." <200501311756.j0VHuDam014541@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <200501311810.j0VIA1qI024452@vice-grips.mit.edu> It has been pointed out by many, including the author, that a number of things in Jhereg just don't fit the universe of the rest of the book. Perhaps we can add Vlad's observation of Aliera's walk to that category. > I'll admit I don't have the book in > front of me, but it was pointed out to > me this weekend that, on page 50 of > Jhereg (Ace? Tor edition?) Vlad mentions Mario > in a quote I never took much notice of before. > > Vlad is talking about Aliera, I believe, > and says she had a graceful walk "reminiscent > of Mario" (if anyone has the book handy, an > exact quote would be appreciated). > > Our question was: How the hell would Vlad know > how Mario walks if he's never seen the guy? > > Any guesses? > > Just a thought to get the week moving. > > :) > Chris > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 31 10:16:06 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:16:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: On begging raises... Message-ID: <200501311816.j0VIG6am016370@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Shawn Burns wrote: > Well, I'm not really advocating "giving up" the logical meaning of the > phrase...just perhaps not caring so much about when someone chooses to use > it in the way that seems most intuitive to them. I can easily see myself > using both meanings in conversations, just switching up based on the > audience and context. Well, as the person who instigated this discussion with his incorrect usage, I must say I am always grateful when people like Dr. Whom correct such mistakes. It is to be hoped* that he will continue to do so in the future; or I shall continue to make such elementary mistakes. * As an example of such an elementary mistake, I've forced myself out of the habit of misusing "hopefully" in my writing, and even, with occasional slips, in my speech. I remain exceedingly grateful. :) Chris (Who's proud, but not so proud he won't fess-up when he's done wrong.) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 31 10:35:58 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:35:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Has Vlad met Mario? Message-ID: <200501311835.j0VIZwam018216@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > It has been pointed out by many, including the author, that a number of things > in Jhereg just don't fit the universe of the rest of the book. Perhaps we > can add Vlad's observation of Aliera's walk to that category. Oh, I rather expect that to be the case, it's true. But where would this list be without wild speculation? Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 31 11:07:38 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:07:38 -0800 Subject: Fwd: RE: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post In-Reply-To: <000301c50674$dd30e7f0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <00b301c507c8$21c5ec40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I'm relatively new here -- how evil is Steve? Because the evillest and > most unlikely plot twist I can think of would be for that _not_ to be a > setup for a Dashiel Hammet-like opening to the next book. > > Louann, just saying. If Steve remains true to form then the next book will be "past-tense". It's very likely that we won't learn what's become of Vlad in the "present" until the book after Dzur. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Jan 31 11:41:04 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:41:04 -0500 Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <2ade01c507bb$3db26f30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ade01c507bb$3db26f30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <41FE89D0.8010101@earthlink.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >>That's a strict way to look at it. Personally, I think there's a bit of >>difference between mutual back-scratching, even of a more sinister sort, >>and accepting hard currency in return for laying someone out. >> >> > >I think this is splitting hairs. You could make an argument that Loftis >would see that Vlad's request was a reasonable one (especially given >Dragaeran attitudes towards the eviction of little old ladies) and therefore >would have followed through with it regardless of Vlad's agreement to do >some "work" for him in return. There's no question of Vlad being "hired". >The negotiation between Vlad and Loftis (hope I got his name right) is a >direct parallel to the negotiations he did in the Jhereg for similar types >of "work". The only question is Vlad's motiviation. If he did it because >Loftis helped him and conversely would NOT have done it if Loftis had NOT >helped him then it's "murder for hire". > >If you have any doubts, try re-casting the story in terms of a modern-day >policeman agreeing to help a known hit-man out of a jam. He then gives said >hit-man all the details needed to take out a corrupt cop and the hit-man in >turn kills the corrupt cop. > >Faced with a real-life example like that, would you really say that the >hit-man was just doing a favor and not doing "murder for hire"? > > Orca Spoilers First off, Vlad makes a deal with Timmer, who is an ensign in the same group as Loftis. And more importantly, Loftis is the reason Vlad and Timmer reach an agreement: Vlad liked Loftis, and is pissed at the crap Domm pulled to cover his own ass, including having Loftis killed. Timmer probably liked Loftis more than Vlad did, but more importantly, she respected him. And she was unhappy that Domm was going to get away with having Loftis killed, as Domm caused the mess that brought her and Loftis to Northport in the first place by bungling the false investigation. I'm away from my books, since I'm at work, but I'm fairly certain I have the names and actions more or less right. The deal between Vlad and Timmer was not so much "you get me the deed to the land I'm interested in and I'll kill Domm" so much as "we both want justice for what Domm did to Loftis, so arrange for Domm to be here at a certain time, and I'll take care of it; better that I get my hands dirty, as I'm already scum, than you bring down the Empire on you for Doing the Right Thing (eliminating Domm, I argue, and Vlad agrees, is the right thing to do). Although they "spoke Jhereg" at the meeting to get their meaning across, I would argue that the motivations and lack of payment differentiate this from actual "work." Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Mon Jan 31 12:10:46 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:10:46 -0800 Subject: On begging raises... In-Reply-To: <200501311816.j0VIG6am016370@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050131201048.MNQQ11735.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Language is like a thingamajig. There is always change and evolution in language, and what might be a mistake within one framework is not in another (e.g. the old definition of "whale" as a "fish"); it's a mistake only if you don't communicate what you intend to the person to with whom you are communicating. Shawn > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:16 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: On begging raises... > > Shawn Burns wrote: > > Well, I'm not really advocating "giving up" the logical > meaning of the > > phrase...just perhaps not caring so much about when someone > chooses to > > use it in the way that seems most intuitive to them. I can > easily see > > myself using both meanings in conversations, just switching > up based > > on the audience and context. > > Well, as the person who instigated this discussion with his > incorrect usage, I must say I am always grateful when people > like Dr. Whom correct such mistakes. > > It is to be hoped* that he will continue to do so in the > future; or I shall continue to make such elementary mistakes. > > * As an example of such an elementary mistake, I've forced > myself out of the habit of misusing "hopefully" > in my writing, and even, with occasional slips, in my speech. > > I remain exceedingly grateful. > > :) > Chris (Who's proud, but not so proud he won't fess-up > when he's done wrong.) > > "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order > to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > > From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jan 31 12:12:49 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:12:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <2a1401c507b1$9b6328e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2a1401c507b1$9b6328e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > There's no question > in my mind that Vlad was doing murder for hire. Not in the least, I assure you. The essence of murder-for-hire is disinterest, as in the killing of a stranger because of value offered by another stranger. The murder at the end of Orca is undertaken narrowly and specifically to further Vlad's interests. All murders for hire are murders for gain, but most murders for gain are not murders for hire. pe From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jan 31 12:15:32 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:15:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <2ade01c507bb$3db26f30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ade01c507bb$3db26f30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > If you have any doubts, try re-casting the story in terms of a modern-day > policeman agreeing to help a known hit-man out of a jam. He then gives said > hit-man all the details needed to take out a corrupt cop and the hit-man in > turn kills the corrupt cop. > > Faced with a real-life example like that, would you really say that the > hit-man was just doing a favor and not doing "murder for hire"? Er, well, yes. Precisely so. pe From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 31 12:47:58 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:47:58 -0800 Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <41FE89D0.8010101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Thanks for the refresher on the names. I was working with the only one that came from memory, with a certainty that I'd get it wrong. ;-) >The deal between Vlad and Timmer was not so much "you get me the deed to >the land I'm interested in and I'll kill Domm" so much as "we both want >justice for what Domm did to Loftis, so arrange for Domm to be here at a >certain time, and I'll take care of it; better that I get my hands >dirty, as I'm already scum, than you bring down the Empire on you for >Doing the Right Thing (eliminating Domm, I argue, and Vlad agrees, is >the right thing to do). Although they "spoke Jhereg" at the meeting to >get their meaning across, I would argue that the motivations and lack of >payment differentiate this from actual "work." I find this attitude rather interesting, moreso because it's being evinced by multiple list readers. The way I see it, Vlad and Timmer/whoever came to an "understanding". That "understanding" was reached based upon a trading of favors. Vlad had no incentive to stick his neck out any further than he already had unless Timmer/whoever gave him what he wanted. At point, he owed that person a debt. The incentive then was the discharging of the debt, which Timmer/whoever then made possible. The definition of "work", to me, is the creation and discharge of this debt between the two people. The justice of the thing is just icing on the cake. Let's look at it this way. Suppose Vlad was still in the Jhereg. The Demon comes to him and says "I have a problem that I need handled with utmost discretion. The person who handles this problem for me can expect to have his territory doubled in size." Vlad says "My territory is big enough for me, but I have a friend who is interested in expanding. I'll let him know about the opportunity." He then carries out the hit and is rewarded with a larger territory. No cash changes hands. Is this "work"? Let's change the scenario slightly. The Demon visits Vlad and says "I'm impressed with your operation. I'm recommending that the Council make you a baron (he's originally a baronet)and double your territory." Vlad is flattered and proud. The Demon makes good on his word and Vlad is made a baron. A week later, the Demon drops by unexpectedly and asks "Do you like your new digs? All happy and cozy?" When Vlad replies in the affirmative, The Demon then says "BTW, I have this little problem and I was hoping you'd know someone who could help me with it." Vlad accepts the contract and performs the hit gratis as repayment for the promotion arranged by The Demon. Is this "work"? Maybe we should remove financial gaine from the picture entirely. Morollan finds himself being blackmailed over some minor but embarassing thing. Vlad visits The Demon and asks him to call off the blackmail. The Demon, an obliging fellow, says "Seeing as it's the Lord Morrolan and that blackmail was unauthorized, I'll write the blackmailer a note telling him to knock it off. As it turns out, this fellow has caused us a bit of embarassment by blackmailing several Lords and possibly even embezzling from The Organization. Maybe you could deliver a letter to him? He'll be at location X at time Y tomorrow evening for a meeting." Vlad ices the guy. Is this "work"? Is it the money changing hands that makes it "work" or is it the intention of the two parties that makes it "work"? Is it the justice of a "deserved" death over an "undeserved" death that makes it "work" or not? From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jan 31 13:06:28 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > The definition of "work", to me, is the > creation and discharge of this debt between the two people. The justice of > the thing is just icing on the cake. Your definition seems to be at variance with the more commonly accepted one. > Let's look at it this way. Suppose Vlad was still in the Jhereg. The Demon > comes to him and says "I have a problem that I need handled with utmost > discretion. The person who handles this problem for me can expect to have > his territory doubled in size." Vlad says "My territory is big enough for > me, but I have a friend who is interested in expanding. I'll let him know > about the opportunity." He then carries out the hit and is rewarded with a > larger territory. No cash changes hands. Is this "work"? Sure. It's contracted out. > Let's change the scenario slightly. The Demon visits Vlad and says "I'm > impressed with your operation. I'm recommending that the Council make you a > baron (he's originally a baronet)and double your territory." Vlad is > flattered and proud. The Demon makes good on his word and Vlad is made a > baron. A week later, the Demon drops by unexpectedly and asks "Do you like > your new digs? All happy and cozy?" When Vlad replies in the affirmative, > The Demon then says "BTW, I have this little problem and I was hoping you'd > know someone who could help me with it." Vlad accepts the contract and > performs the hit gratis as repayment for the promotion arranged by The > Demon. Is this "work"? Bit of a grey area -- value recieved before contract was in place. Vlad would be within his rights to say he knows a friend who will do it for some money, or to refuse entirely. This would piss the Demon off, of course, but the way we've seen the Jhereg work, this sort of favor-in-advance doesn't really happen, at least not vis-a-vis work. > Maybe we should remove financial gaine from the picture entirely. Morollan > finds himself being blackmailed over some minor but embarassing thing. Vlad > visits The Demon and asks him to call off the blackmail. The Demon, an > obliging fellow, says "Seeing as it's the Lord Morrolan and that blackmail was > unauthorized, I'll write the blackmailer a note telling him to knock it off. > As it turns out, this fellow has caused us a bit of embarassment by > blackmailing several Lords and possibly even embezzling from The Organization. > Maybe you could deliver a letter to him? He'll be at location X at time Y > tomorrow evening for a meeting." Vlad ices the guy. Is this "work"? Not at all. No money changes hands, and Vlad is serving his own interests -- or, at least, Morrolan's interests, out of personal loyalty to same. This situation is the most analogous to the killing done in _Orca_. > Is it the money changing hands that makes it "work" or is it the intention > of the two parties that makes it "work"? Is it the justice of a "deserved" > death over an "undeserved" death that makes it "work" or not? The justice of the act is irrelevant to its type. The classification depends on the lever that engages the killer's action. If the motivation is coin, then it is murder-for-hire. If the motivation is a different sort of personal gain, such as power, revenge, or fixing a problem for a friend, then it's just killing, such as any Dragon might perform. See also Cawti's conversation with (Aliera?) regarding the differences in payment for the Jhereg and the Dragonlord ("What can one buy with bloodlust?" etc, _Yendi_ if I'm not mistaken). pe From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Jan 31 13:44:06 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:44:06 -0500 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050128131604.GB25563@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Message-ID: <41FE6056.5349.183A2D3@localhost> On 28 Jan 2005 at 8:16, Steve Simmons wrote > On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:29:02AM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > > Vlad having fever dreams in Athyra: > > > > "'Did someone harness me to a horse and use me as a plow?' > > 'No.' > > 'I suspected that was a dream. Were there three little tiny > > people standing around me arguing about who got what pieces of my > > body, and what to do with the rest?'" > > The second half of this (three people arguing about what pieces) > really rang a bell the first time I read it, but I just can't bring it > to mind. Anybody? > > Steve For some reason the above reminds me of the scene in "A Christmas Carol" where Scrooge's possessions are being fenced. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Mon Jan 31 13:44:20 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:44:20 -0500 Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schultz [mailto:scott at cjhunter.com] > > The way I see it, Vlad and Timmer/whoever came to an "understanding". That > "understanding" was reached based upon a trading of favors. Vlad had no > incentive to stick his neck out any further than he already had unless > Timmer/whoever gave him what he wanted. At point, he owed that person a > debt. The incentive then was the discharging of the debt, which > Timmer/whoever then made possible. The definition of "work", to me, is the > creation and discharge of this debt between the two people. The justice of > the thing is just icing on the cake. > > Let's look at it this way. Suppose Vlad was still in the Jhereg. The Demon > comes to him and says "I have a problem that I need handled with utmost > discretion. The person who handles this problem for me can expect to have > his territory doubled in size." Vlad says "My territory is big enough for > me, but I have a friend who is interested in expanding. I'll let him know > about the opportunity." He then carries out the hit and is rewarded with a > larger territory. No cash changes hands. Is this "work"? > > Let's change the scenario slightly. The Demon visits Vlad and says "I'm > impressed with your operation. I'm recommending that the Council make you > a > baron (he's originally a baronet)and double your territory." Vlad is > flattered and proud. The Demon makes good on his word and Vlad is made a > baron. A week later, the Demon drops by unexpectedly and asks "Do you like > your new digs? All happy and cozy?" When Vlad replies in the affirmative, > The Demon then says "BTW, I have this little problem and I was hoping > you'd > know someone who could help me with it." Vlad accepts the contract and > performs the hit gratis as repayment for the promotion arranged by The > Demon. Is this "work"? Both of these boil down to the same thing. In the first instance, I would say yes, and in the second I would say no. The primary difference between them being that in the second the Demon flat out states that he's exerting his influence in the council (which is a relatively unique trait) to help out Vlad, who is in a relatively unique position to help out the Demon (considering his credentials). The first however could be a case of the Demon simply giving some of his own territory (or acquiring territory from someone else) to Vlad, which makes it analogous to currency, and any Jhereg with some territory to spare could make a payment of this kind. So without a little more detail these two scenarios are being examined on the basis of two or three words. The fact that the course of events is reversed in the two scenarios is mostly immaterial. > > Maybe we should remove financial gaine from the picture entirely. Morollan > finds himself being blackmailed over some minor but embarassing thing. > Vlad > visits The Demon and asks him to call off the blackmail. The Demon, an > obliging fellow, says "Seeing as it's the Lord Morrolan and that blackmail > was unauthorized, I'll write the blackmailer a note telling him to knock > it > off. As it turns out, this fellow has caused us a bit of embarassment by > blackmailing several Lords and possibly even embezzling from The > Organization. Maybe you could deliver a letter to him? He'll be at > location > X at time Y tomorrow evening for a meeting." Vlad ices the guy. Is this > "work"? No. Only the Demon (or similar high ranking Jhereg) could have provided that assistance (in the form of implying that it's okay for Vlad to off the teckla), so we have again a situation where two people are pretty uniquely suited to helping each other. That's not to say that Vlad couldn't have just offed the guy anyway, but this would have been riskier without that agreement. That's also not to say that it's a morally agreeable solution to the problem, however effective it might be. > > Is it the money changing hands that makes it "work" or is it the intention > of the two parties that makes it "work"? Is it the justice of a "deserved" > death over an "undeserved" death that makes it "work" or not? IMO it's the currency changing hands. And when I say currency, I mean anything that can be considered directly analogous to cash. Territory can be called cash. Knowing that the Demon says you're clear to take out this guy is not cash, and can't be called analogous to it. It's something that only a council member can provide, which makes it a pretty unique consideration. A favor; not some middle manager with a grudge and a big purse, those are a dime a dozen. If there's no currency, then the principals are just exchanging favors, providing a benefit to each other that they each can spare. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 31 13:55:34 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:55:34 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <604A603D.5E2531E3.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/28/2005 11:29:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Timothy Scott writes: >> >> At some point Vlad describes Lady Teldra's effect on him as beauty >> without >> sexual arousal, which he finds unusual. >> >> -- Mark >> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] >> >> > > >Son of a gun! ?I had totally forgotten reading that. ?Still, he could >have changed his mind later. ?Ah, well. ?It was just a thought. > > Also, getting to really know someone can change your whole perception on how they look (beauty in the eye and inner beauty). I never thought Jonny Depp was hott until he played Jack Sparrow **girlish sigh**. But honestly, I don't Vlad and Teldra would have had anything going... but I still have to re-read _Issola_. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 31 14:03:13 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <39AAF2F4.123E8705.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/29/2005 10:12:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > >> At some point Vlad describes Lady Teldra's effect on him as beauty >> without sexual arousal, which he finds unusual. > >Which implies that he has become sexually aroused by Dragaerans in the past. >With his brothels at least, he probably used their services. > > >> But also says, to him, it's like beastiality. I can't remember which one that's from. It's when Loiosh asks him why killing people makes him so horny. Which makes one (me in particular) wonder, if killing makes him horny, why does he not want to kill..oh, nevermind, I answered my own question. Killing and assassination are different. -C >> _________________________________________________________________ >> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! >> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > > > From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Mon Jan 31 14:08:31 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:08:31 -0700 Subject: Spoiler for ISSOLA in this post Message-ID: <20050131220831.4440.qmail@server261.com> > >Which implies that he has become sexually aroused by Dragaerans in the past. > >With his brothels at least, he probably used their services. > > > But also says, to him, it's like beastiality. I can't remember which one that's from. It's when Loiosh asks him why killing people makes him so horny. Which makes one (me in particular) wonder, if killing makes him horny, why does he not want to kill..oh, nevermind, I answered my own question. Killing and assassination are different. > *insert horrible joke involving 'le petit mort' here* From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jan 31 14:09:50 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:09:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) Message-ID: <200501312209.j0VM9oam007291@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Scott Schultz wrote: > The definition of "work", to me, is the > creation and discharge of this debt between the two people. The justice of > the thing is just icing on the cake. I've always considered "work" to be a useful term for "assasination", which is generally associated with a financial transaction. Do we know how many assasinations Vlad had done by the end of Teckla? By the time of Issola, his count is sixty-three (pg 68). :) Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Jan 31 14:12:39 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:12:39 -0500 Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <41FEAD57.903@earthlink.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >Thanks for the refresher on the names. I was working with the only one that >came from memory, with a certainty that I'd get it wrong. ;-) > > > >>The deal between Vlad and Timmer was not so much "you get me the deed to >>the land I'm interested in and I'll kill Domm" so much as "we both want >>justice for what Domm did to Loftis, so arrange for Domm to be here at a >>certain time, and I'll take care of it; better that I get my hands >>dirty, as I'm already scum, than you bring down the Empire on you for >>Doing the Right Thing (eliminating Domm, I argue, and Vlad agrees, is >>the right thing to do). Although they "spoke Jhereg" at the meeting to >>get their meaning across, I would argue that the motivations and lack of >>payment differentiate this from actual "work." >> >> > >I find this attitude rather interesting, moreso because it's being evinced >by multiple list readers. > >The way I see it, Vlad and Timmer/whoever came to an "understanding". That >"understanding" was reached based upon a trading of favors. Vlad had no >incentive to stick his neck out any further than he already had unless >Timmer/whoever gave him what he wanted. At point, he owed that person a >debt. The incentive then was the discharging of the debt, which >Timmer/whoever then made possible. The definition of "work", to me, is the >creation and discharge of this debt between the two people. The justice of >the thing is just icing on the cake. > >Let's look at it this way. Suppose Vlad was still in the Jhereg. The Demon >comes to him and says "I have a problem that I need handled with utmost >discretion. The person who handles this problem for me can expect to have >his territory doubled in size." Vlad says "My territory is big enough for >me, but I have a friend who is interested in expanding. I'll let him know >about the opportunity." He then carries out the hit and is rewarded with a >larger territory. No cash changes hands. Is this "work"? > > Yes. A payment is made in exchange for a killing: territory for death. >Let's change the scenario slightly. The Demon visits Vlad and says "I'm >impressed with your operation. I'm recommending that the Council make you a >baron (he's originally a baronet)and double your territory." Vlad is >flattered and proud. The Demon makes good on his word and Vlad is made a >baron. A week later, the Demon drops by unexpectedly and asks "Do you like >your new digs? All happy and cozy?" When Vlad replies in the affirmative, >The Demon then says "BTW, I have this little problem and I was hoping you'd >know someone who could help me with it." Vlad accepts the contract and >performs the hit gratis as repayment for the promotion arranged by The >Demon. Is this "work"? > > I don't think so; see Gomi's post for better reasons than I can articulate, but also my definition of "work" as assassination for hire: no payment is offered in exchange for the killing. I think Vlad would also beware of Demons bearing gifts, but it's still not "work" unless it was explicit to Vlad that he was being promoted in exchange for killing Mr. J. Random Jhereg. >Maybe we should remove financial gaine from the picture entirely. Morollan >finds himself being blackmailed over some minor but embarassing thing. Vlad >visits The Demon and asks him to call off the blackmail. The Demon, an >obliging fellow, says "Seeing as it's the Lord Morrolan and that blackmail >was unauthorized, I'll write the blackmailer a note telling him to knock it >off. As it turns out, this fellow has caused us a bit of embarassment by >blackmailing several Lords and possibly even embezzling from The >Organization. Maybe you could deliver a letter to him? He'll be at location >X at time Y tomorrow evening for a meeting." Vlad ices the guy. Is this >"work"? > > No; the difference being "work" is assassination for hire, and this is just plain assassination, as a quick solution to aid a friend. >Is it the money changing hands that makes it "work" or is it the intention >of the two parties that makes it "work"? Is it the justice of a "deserved" >death over an "undeserved" death that makes it "work" or not? > > I would argue that Vlad and Timmer engage in a conspiracy to commit murder, as opposed to Timmer hiring Vlad to kill Domm. Money may not necessarily have to change hands for a killing to be "work," but there has to be some concrete payment, something that is more than personal satisfaction. The fact that Vlad is getting a deed for the death complicates matters a bit, but I believe his main motivation in approaching Timmer in the first place to get the deed is that he wants Domm dead, and he knows she'll want Domm dead once she figures out what he did (he knows Dragons). Intending to kill someone does not necessarily make it "work;" and deserved and undeserved have nothing to do with "work," as in most cases, *somebody* thinks the victim deserves it. The implication of "work" is killing done for money, to make a living that way (and thus it's both work and "work"). Out of curiosity, does it matter how the matter is approached? Usually, Vlad gets hired to kill someone; he does not approach somebody and ask if that person would like someone killed. With Timmer, he approaches her and lays out a whole lot of information, and then offers to kill Domm in exchange for the deed. I think this may make a difference; although Vlad is doing it for something tangible as a payment, he both extends the proposal of killing Domm, and accepts it. It's practically a deal with himself. I think Noish-pa's objections to killing are based on killing for a living, as opposed to an objection to killing in general. This is buttressed by the fact that he has no qualms over killing Phoenix Guards in Phoenix (or was it Teckla? Crap, I can't remember), although he can't bring himself to kill a female. Cawti's questions to Kiera seem to imply that she thinks what he did was more than just killing, it was "work" (the whole "did it bother him?" line of questioning). I obviously disagree. I greatly enjoy these philosophical discussions, especially at work (no, not "work"), when I have to be surreptitious about it. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Jan 31 14:31:47 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:31:47 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: <00BA55D9.67C16086.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Shawn Burns" writes: >Language is like a thingamajig. > >There is always change and evolution in language, Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), but the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean something like, "very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that makes sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There are other ways I use it to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am a strange person and say and do many strange things. -C might be a >mistake within one framework is not in another (e.g. the old definition of >"whale" as a "fish"); it's a mistake only if you don't communicate what you >intend to the person to with whom you are communicating. > >Shawn > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] >> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:16 AM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: On begging raises... >> >> Shawn Burns wrote: >> > Well, I'm not really advocating "giving up" the logical >> meaning of the >> > phrase...just perhaps not caring so much about when someone >> chooses to >> > use it in the way that seems most intuitive to them. I can >> easily see >> > myself using both meanings in conversations, just switching >> up based >> > on the audience and context. >> >> Well, as the person who instigated this discussion with his >> incorrect usage, I must say I am always grateful when people >> like Dr. Whom correct such mistakes. >> >> It is to be hoped* that he will continue to do so in the >> future; or I shall continue to make such elementary mistakes. >> >> * As an example of such an elementary mistake, I've forced >> myself out of the habit of misusing "hopefully" >> in my writing, and even, with occasional slips, in my speech. >> >> I remain exceedingly grateful. >> >> :) >> Chris (Who's proud, but not so proud he won't fess-up >> ? when he's done wrong.) >> >> "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order >> to prove that it is, in fact, real." >> ? -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' >> >> >> > > > From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Jan 31 16:18:11 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:18:11 -0600 Subject: duh! (Orca Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <016001c507d6$25dec780$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <41FECAC3.7060704@comcast.net> I personally think that Vlad and Timmer were working to serve justice. Domm needed to die; he was scum. Vlad was the expedient person to do that. The old woman needed the deed to her land. This was also justice, besides Vlad owing her a huge favor and his own restored honor. Timmer was a person who could do that. The fact that one person did one act and the other the other does not necessarily make it barter; it can also be simple cooperation. Mia From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 31 19:16:23 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:16:23 EST Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? Message-ID: <103.59fde1a7.2f304e87@aol.com> Jim Katz wrote on Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:23:58 -0500 >Well, I just bought a box of hazelnut hot instant cereal from a company >called Carbsens. The cereal is definitely red in color. Hi, Hey Jim, can you check the box and see if the Ingredients say red food dye or anything else listed that might account for the red coloring? rone wrote on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:14:44 -0800 (PST) >Pecans. Yep, and Internet says there is pecan liquor, pecan wood, pecan meal (sometimes referred to as pecan flour) and pecans have an outer shell. Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnuts/macadamia nuts/walnuts/pecans Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut/pecan flour (walnut and pecan flour may actually be meal) Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut/pecan liqueur Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut/pecan wood Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnuts/macadamia nuts/walnuts/pecans have an outer shell. Bye. Linda G. From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 31 20:08:57 2005 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:08:57 -0500 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? References: <103.59fde1a7.2f304e87@aol.com> Message-ID: <41FF00D9.1ED96AC@ix.netcom.com> Hi Linda, Nope, no food dye whatsoever. Interesting, though, I checked their website and this particular product is not listed, so it's probably discontinued... Jim FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > Jim Katz wrote on Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:23:58 -0500 > > >Well, I just bought a box of hazelnut hot instant cereal from a company > >called Carbsens. The cereal is definitely red in color. > Hi, > > Hey Jim, can you check the box and see if the Ingredients say red food > dye or anything else listed that might account for the red coloring? > > rone wrote on Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:14:44 -0800 (PST) > >Pecans. > > Yep, and Internet says there is pecan liquor, pecan wood, > pecan meal (sometimes referred to as pecan flour) and pecans have an > outer shell. > > Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnuts/macadamia nuts/walnuts/pecans > Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut/pecan flour > (walnut and pecan flour may actually be meal) > Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut/pecan liqueur > Hazelnut/almond/chestnut/macadamia/walnut/pecan wood > Hazelnuts/almonds/chestnuts/macadamia nuts/walnuts/pecans > have an outer shell. > > Bye. > > Linda G. -- ! Jim Katz From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 31 20:15:46 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:15:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: the real world becomes more like dragaera daily In-Reply-To: <41FF00D9.1ED96AC@ix.netcom.com> References: <103.59fde1a7.2f304e87@aol.com> <41FF00D9.1ED96AC@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: In an interesting example of changing morals, out-of-work women in Germany are about to be compelled by the state to take available jobs ... ... ... in brothels. That is, assuming http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml isn't an early April's Fools joke. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 20:28:59 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:28:59 -0700 Subject: the real world becomes more like dragaera daily References: <103.59fde1a7.2f304e87@aol.com> <41FF00D9.1ED96AC@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:15 PM Subject: the real world becomes more like dragaera daily > In an interesting example of changing morals, out-of-work women in > Germany are about to be compelled by the state to take available jobs > ... > ... > ... > in brothels. > > That is, assuming > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml > isn't an early April's Fools joke. > > Nope, I heard about this on the radio this morning. The govt is looking at revising the law even now. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Jan 31 21:04:06 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:04:06 EST Subject: Has Vlad met Mario? Message-ID: <11.3df127c0.2f3067c6@aol.com> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote on Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:56:13 -0800 (PST) >I'll admit I don't have the book in >front of me, but it was pointed out to >me this weekend that, on page 50 of >Jhereg (Ace? Tor edition?) Vlad mentions Mario >in a quote I never took much notice of before. >Vlad is talking about Aliera, I believe, >and says she had a graceful walk "reminiscent >of Mario" (if anyone has the book handy, an >exact quote would be appreciated). >Our question was: How the h*ll would Vlad know >how Mario walks if he's never seen the guy? Hi, Thanks for the page number. Jhereg, paperback, Chapter 4, page 50. Vlad thinking about Kiera: "She moved with ease and grace, almost reminiscent of Mario." Same text in The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 4, page 36. Maybe every Mario story Vlad has heard in the Jhereg refers to Mario as moving with ease and grace. Vlad could, of course, just think Mario moved with ease and grace. We also know Vlad has read some of Paarfi "histories" and Paarfi may have referred to Mario as moving with ease and grace in a history that Vlad read but we have not seen . . .yet. We know that Paarfi has referred to Mario as graceful before: "Mario stabbed a piece of kethna with his skewer in a motion precise and graceful, acquiring both an onion and a mushroom at the same time." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Nineteenth, page 288. (submitted to the Imperial Library in the Eleventh Year of the Glorious Reign of the Empress Norathar the Second) So Vlad could not have read 500YA before Orca. Hmmm, maybe that was the paperback version and the hardback version came out decades before. Maybe an author is only allowed to submit a book to the Imperial Library after it has been in print for 17, 34, 51 or such years. Then Vlad could have read it. No, Vlad couldn't have read 500YA. He couldn't have resisted kidding Aliera about Mario and then, Aliera couldn't have resisted killing Vlad. Bye. Linda G. From crhaden at gotrain.org Mon Jan 31 21:19:54 2005 From: crhaden at gotrain.org (Curtis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:19:54 -0600 Subject: The next Vlad novel (Timeline Spoiler) Message-ID: <41FF117A.7010907@gotrain.org> With the author's permission, I respectfully submit the following response to a question I posed back in October 2004. Read no further if you want to keep wondering about where in time Vlad will next grace us with his presence: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Brust wrote: >> > On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 20:14, Curtis wrote: >> > >> > > > >>> > > I've got a million-and-one questions, but I'll be satisfied if you'll >>> > > just tell me whether or not you're continuing the timeline where >>> > > Issola left off... >>> > > >>> > > >> >> >> > Yes. This one picks up immediately after _Issola_. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Steve > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 1/27/2005 From crhaden at gotrain.org Mon Jan 31 22:50:35 2005 From: crhaden at gotrain.org (Curtis) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 00:50:35 -0600 Subject: The next Vlad novel (Timeline Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <41FF117A.7010907@gotrain.org> References: <41FF117A.7010907@gotrain.org> Message-ID: <41FF26BB.5040207@gotrain.org> Curtis wrote: > With the author's permission, I respectfully submit the following > response to a question I posed back in October 2004. > > Read no further if you want to keep wondering about where in time Vlad > will next grace us with his presence: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Brust wrote: > >>> > On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 20:14, Curtis wrote: >>> > > >> >> >> >>>> > > I've got a million-and-one questions, but I'll be satisfied if >>>> you'll >>>> > > just tell me whether or not you're continuing the timeline where >>>> > > Issola left off... >>>> > > > > >>> >>> >>> > Yes. This one picks up immediately after _Issola_. >>> > > Best, >>> > > Steve >> >> > > > I have to say, in the "un-quoted" portion of the email I sent to our favorite author, I seem to recall asking him to humor me in beginning the next novel with, "No sh*t, there I was a Valabar's..." hehe. -- Life, thy name is Irony ...Or, something like that. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.8.1 - Release Date: 1/27/2005 From scs at di.org Tue Feb 1 05:42:42 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:42:42 -0500 Subject: Rednuts-what do you think is the closest Earth substitute? In-Reply-To: <103.59fde1a7.2f304e87@aol.com> References: <103.59fde1a7.2f304e87@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050201134242.GB8295@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 10:16:23PM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Yep, and Internet says there is pecan liquor, pecan wood, > pecan meal (sometimes referred to as pecan flour) and pecans have an > outer shell. I once had a flourless dark chocolate torte made with ground pecans in place of the flour. Awesome. -- "There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why smart-asses are over-represented." Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 08:49:38 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:49:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050129052005.XSIX8778.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Shawn Burns wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:11 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: duh! > > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > From: Mark A. Mandel [mailto:thnidu at yahoo.com] > > > > --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > >> Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? > > > > >RAISES the question. > > > > > > This is an interesting point. I generally uses "begs the question" as > > denoting a argument fallacy. But every once in a while I want to use > > it as "raises the question", and I think there is at least a popular > > movement to change the meaning of the phrase. I don't think I would > > object to the meaning being changed, since intuitively I can see "that > begs the question" > > as meaning "what you have just said is akin to begging me to ask you > > this follow-up question". I don't know what the etymology is (perhaps > > both meanings were in usage at some point), but I'm inclined to use it > > > both ways, despite what the OED says. At one point the OED defined a > > whale as a fish; meanings change with use. > > > >>This strikes me as very very evil - there's a phrase that has a unique > useful meaning ("making a fallacious argument by >>assuming the > >>conclusion") not easily expressed otherwise, with a long pedigree from > a > phrase ("petitio principii" - "requesting the >>start" or something) one > sees on occasion; and there's a meaning which can be easily expressed > idiomatically otherwise >>("raises the question", "suggests", "leads > to", > "brings up", ...) - and people are stomping the former with the latter. > >>At some point we prescriptivists may have to give up on this phrase > but it > will mean a loss of current expressivity and >>a loss of > comprehensibility > of texts. > > Well, I'm not really advocating "giving up" the logical meaning of the > phrase...just perhaps not caring so much about when someone chooses to > use > it in the way that seems most intuitive to them. I can easily see myself > using both meanings in conversations, just switching up based on the > audience and context. > > Which begs the question "Which audiences and contexts are appropriate > for > each use?" In my opinion, "beg the question" is "skunked", as some language writer puts it. You can't use it with the old meaning except in very unusual contexts (alt.usage.english, for instance), and you can't use it with the new meaning because *someone* will object. Instead I use synonyms: "argue in a circle" or "assume what needs to be proven" for the old meaning, and "raise the question" or even "beg for the question" for the new one. Eventually the new meaning may totally replace the old and become standard (see "hectic"). But it will become unanimous over my dead body. Jerry Friedman might mean "over my dead soul". __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 09:44:24 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:44:24 -0600 Subject: Sci-Fi authors strike back! Message-ID: http://3dgpu.com/archives/2005/02/01/sci-fi-authors-strike-back/ The old adage remains - "truth is stranger than fiction". Even Science Fiction. There was a time when Science Fiction as a genre was considered something of a red-headed stepchild compared to "more serious" literature, but thanks to works like Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man" (winner of the first Hugo award), Doc Smith's "Lensman" series, Sci-Fi Grandmaster Robert Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", and Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game", this is no longer the case. Sci-Fi has become big business, both in print and on film. This seems like a no-brainer, but apparently the good people over at PublishAmerica (assumed by many authors to be a "thinly veiled 'vanity publisher'") think differently. They wrote, on one of their sites, that "as a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction?." and continued in that vein, insinuating that the authors that write sci-fi and fantasy are not capable of writing believable storylines or characters. In the days of chivalry, this was called "throwing down the gauntlet", and writers love nothing more than a good challenge. For writers whose stock in trade involves the creation and destruction of entire worlds before breakfast, this was a golden chance to challenge the interloper on their own turf. QUOTE: Over a holiday weekend last year, some thirty-odd science fiction writers banged out a chapter or two apiece of "Atlanta Nights," a novel about hot times in Atlanta high society. Their objective: to write a deeply awful novel to submit to PublishAmerica, a self-described "traditional publisher" located in Frederick, Maryland. /QUOTE I won't spoil it for you. Click these links to see how it turned out: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/1/prweb202277.htm http://journals.aol.com/johnmscalzi/bytheway/entries/3500 -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From walshm at ipfw.edu Tue Feb 1 10:39:19 2005 From: walshm at ipfw.edu (Matthew Walsh) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:39:19 -0500 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <156.498d04d7.2f2d3b8d@aol.com> References: <156.498d04d7.2f2d3b8d@aol.com> Message-ID: <9fd7cf641dce7234042055546d0876fe@ipfw.edu> On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:18 PM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST [ snip ] > Vlad speaking to Savn: > Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were > joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make > the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the > true, true salad flax will melt--' Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. This should be filed as a joke/allusion to /Hamlet/ on C&S, right? - - Matt - - From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:58:20 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:58:20 +0100 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <9fd7cf641dce7234042055546d0876fe@ipfw.edu> Message-ID: Matthew Walsh wrote: >On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:18 PM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >>FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST >[ snip ] >>Vlad speaking to Savn: >> Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were >>joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make >>the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the >>true, true salad flax will melt--' > >Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the whole >exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. > >This should be filed as a joke/allusion to /Hamlet/ on C&S, right? > >- - Matt - - > That confused me more than it explained anything, care to illuminate me? /Martin (who's only been to Helsing?r castle once, and never met any prince there...) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From walshm at ipfw.edu Tue Feb 1 11:04:57 2005 From: walshm at ipfw.edu (Matthew Walsh) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:04:57 -0500 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Matthew Walsh wrote: >>> FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST >> [ snip ] >>> Vlad speaking to Savn: >>> Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were >>> joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make >>> the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the >>> true, true salad flax will melt--' >> Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the >> whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. >> >> This should be filed as a joke/allusion to /Hamlet/ on C&S, right? > > That confused me more than it explained anything, care to illuminate > me? One of Hamlet's soliloquies -- Act 2, Scene 1 -- starts off with the line, "O, that this too too solid flesh would melt..." - - Matt - - From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 11:45:30 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:45:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <9fd7cf641dce7234042055546d0876fe@ipfw.edu> Message-ID: <20050201194530.46751.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matthew Walsh wrote: > On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:18 PM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST > [ snip ] > > Vlad speaking to Savn: > > Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were > > joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make > > the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the > > true, true salad flax will melt--' > > Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the > whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. > > This should be filed as a joke/allusion to /Hamlet/ on C&S, right? Oh, man. I totally missed that. Thanks, Matthew... I think. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Feb 1 12:27:33 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:27:33 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <00BA55D9.67C16086.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41FF9FE5.18085.B250AD@localhost> On 31 Jan 2005 at 17:31, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Shawn > Burns" writes: > > >Language is like a thingamajig. > > > >There is always change and evolution in language, > > Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), but > the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean something like, > "very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that makes > sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There ar e other ways I use it > to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am a strange > person and say and do many strange things. > > -C > You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 1 07:31:32 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:31:32 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), but I've always used that phrase in this sense: "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in Iraq." In other words, "begs the question" means something like, "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." Is this correct, or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 1 07:34:21 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:34:21 -0800 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <9fd7cf641dce7234042055546d0876fe@ipfw.edu> References: <156.498d04d7.2f2d3b8d@aol.com> <9fd7cf641dce7234042055546d0876fe@ipfw.edu> Message-ID: <1107272061.2394.55.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 10:39, Matthew Walsh wrote: > On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:18 PM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST > [ snip ] > > Vlad speaking to Savn: > > Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were > > joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make > > the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the > > true, true salad flax will melt--' > > Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the > whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. > I beg to submit that, if the passage didn't bother you when you first read it, before you caught that, I officially Got Away With It. From marklandin at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:40:06 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:40:06 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <16ee270e05020112403a58c87@mail.gmail.com> > Is this correct, > or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? How surreal. An internationally-known author is (indirectly) asking my input on grammar. As my mother once said "People who don't know grammar ... hmm, now how can I put this?" From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 12:42:39 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:42:39 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: <27E3C197.6258F46C.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 3:27:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: >On 31 Jan 2005 at 17:31, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > >> In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Shawn >> Burns" writes: >> >> >Language is like a thingamajig. >> > >> >There is always change and evolution in language, >> >> Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), but >> the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean something like, >> "very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that makes >> sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There ar e other ways I use it >> to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am a strange >> person and say and do many strange things. >> >> -C >> > >You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! > >M Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." Pak the cah in Havad's yad. I love New England! -C >Michele Riccio >mr1 at rcosta.com > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 1 13:04:25 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone > corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), but > I've always used that phrase in this sense: > > "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and > major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in > Iraq." In other words, "begs the question" means something like, > "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." Is this correct, > or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? My guess is that prescriptivists like me and Mark will consider that evil, descriptivists won't get the circular part, and those in the middle will wonder what You mean - a lose-lose-lose scenario unless You're trying to fly under the radar smoothly as melted flax. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Feb 1 13:12:45 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:12:45 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <16ee270e05020112403a58c87@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <16ee270e05020112403a58c87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41FFF0CD.4010209@earthlink.net> Mark Landin wrote: >>Is this correct, >>or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? >> >> > >How surreal. An internationally-known author is (indirectly) asking my >input on grammar. As my mother once said "People who don't know >grammar ... hmm, now how can I put this?" > > As long as there are writers, there'll be editors (the nobody's perfect temporization). And something I've noticed when I'm writing and I'm unsure of how a phrase should be used: the more I play it back and forth in my head (and even aloud), the less it makes sense; it's like the phrase (or word!) loses its meaning by my replaying it like that. So I have to turn to somebody to hit the grammatical/contextual reset button and pronounce it or define it or whatever it is that I need. I would chalk this up to being a foreigner (sort of), but I find that I can recreate this effect in my native language just as much as in English. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 1 13:17:08 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:17:08 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:31:32 -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone > corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), but > I've always used that phrase in this sense: > > "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and > major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in > Iraq." In other words, "begs the question" means something like, > "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." Is this correct, > or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? I wouldn't think so: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/begs.html An argument that improperly assumes as true the very point the speaker is trying to argue for is said in formal logic to ?beg the question.? Here is an example of a question-begging argument: ?This painting is trash because it is obviously worthless.? The speaker is simply asserting the worthlessness of the work, not presenting any evidence to demonstrate that this is in fact the case. Since we never use ?begs? with this odd meaning (?to improperly take for granted?) in any other phrase, many people mistakenly suppose the phrase implies something quite different: that the argument demands that a question about it be asked?raises the question. If you?re not comfortable with formal terms of logic, it?s best to stay away from this phrase, or risk embarrassing yourself. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 1 13:19:16 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:19:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <41FFF0CD.4010209@earthlink.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <16ee270e05020112403a58c87@mail.gmail.com> <41FFF0CD.4010209@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > Mark Landin wrote: > > >How surreal. An internationally-known author is (indirectly) asking my > >input on grammar. As my mother once said "People who don't know > >grammar ... hmm, now how can I put this?" > > > > > As long as there are writers, there'll be editors (the nobody's perfect > temporization). Also note that while SKZB is of course the universal expert on Dragaera, that doesn't mean Mark or Alexx or David Silberstein (or even the rest of us if we're in form) can't point out a thing or two to him. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Feb 1 13:19:48 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:19:48 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <27E3C197.6258F46C.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <27E3C197.6258F46C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/1/2005 3:27:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: > > > >>On 31 Jan 2005 at 17:31, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote >> >> >> >>>In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Shawn >>>Burns" writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Language is like a thingamajig. >>>> >>>>There is always change and evolution in language, >>>> >>>> >>>Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), but >>>the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean something like, >>>"very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that makes >>>sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There ar e other ways I use it >>>to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am a strange >>>person and say and do many strange things. >>> >>>-C >>> >>> >>> >>You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! >> >>M >> >> > >Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." >Pak the cah in Havad's yad. >I love New England! >-C > > Yeah, but there's hardly any parking in Harvard Yard; you gotta go on Garden St. or maybe Brattle St. to find anything. I usually just leave my cah in my apahtment pahking space, and walk the ten minutes to Hahvid instead. I find, after only seven and a half years in the Boston area (Chestnut Hill & Somerville, if you must know), that I don't really drop Rs; I add them. I occasionally have trouble with Lawr and other such words, but I normally speak in the good ol' unaccented Miami dialect. So people mistake me for Canadian. I don't know why; every Canadian I've met has had a Canadian accent (including my boss). Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 1 13:20:53 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:20:53 -0700 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: On 02/01/2005 1:42:39 PM, medcat7 at aol.com wrote: > Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." > Pak the cah in Havad's > yad. > I love New England! > -C I remember a cartoon in a paper with a child looking on a globe for "Cuber". (showing my age) There are two state capitals that for most of the country rhyme - but don't for people who live in them. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Feb 1 13:31:24 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:31:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <200502012131.j11LVMam028515@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Steven Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 10:39, Matthew Walsh wrote: > > Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the > > whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. > > I beg to submit that, if the passage didn't bother you when you first > read it, before you caught that, I officially Got Away With It. Oh, yeah, you Got Away With It, all right. I know I never caught it, and I caught Zelazny's "then the fit hit the shan" the first time. Damn you're good. Chris From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Feb 1 13:39:34 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:39:34 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502012139.j11LdZTi022008@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:04 PM > To: Steve Brust > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: duh! > > > > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone > > corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), > > but I've always used that phrase in this sense: > > > > "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such > industries as oil > > and major finance, which begs the question of who is served > by the war > > in Iraq." In other words, "begs the question" means > something like, > > "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." Is > this correct, > > or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? > > My guess is that prescriptivists like me and Mark will > consider that evil, descriptivists won't get the circular > part, and those in the middle will wonder what You mean - a > lose-lose-lose scenario unless You're trying to fly under the > radar smoothly as melted flax. > I think that looking at the context of usage there is no confusion about what the phrase means to those of us who are in the middle. I'm not going to interpret Steve as referring to a circular argument, but will always consider him to be referring to a question that begs to be asked. In the sense that Steve is accustomed to using it (a more specialized sense than just "raising" a question) there is also an intimation of an answer already in place, and that demanding that particular question is important because the answer will somehow cause problems for the questionee (?). This is just a more pointed, rhetorical usage of the phrase in its "raising" sense, not a genuine 3rd way of using the phrase, so I don't think it makes the issue any more confusing. I think we all win. Shawn From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 13:42:30 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:42:30 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <2E6DE315.79F1F7DB.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:04:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Philip Hart writes: > > >On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > >> ?Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone >> corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), but >> I've always used that phrase in this sense: >> >> "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and >> major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in >> Iraq." ?In other words, "begs the question" means something like, >> "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." ?Is this correct, >> or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? > >My guess is that prescriptivists like me and Mark will consider that evil, >descriptivists won't get the circular part, and those in the middle will >wonder what You mean - a lose-lose-lose scenario unless You're trying to >fly under the radar smoothly as melted flax. > I would take it as, "It has to be asked." -C From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Feb 1 13:47:25 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:47:25 -0800 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200502012147.j11LlRTi024761@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:20 PM > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: evolution in languege: OT > > MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > >In a message dated 2/1/2005 3:27:33 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: > > > > > > > >>On 31 Jan 2005 at 17:31, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > >> > >> > >> > >>>In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "Shawn > >>>Burns" writes: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Language is like a thingamajig. > >>>> > >>>>There is always change and evolution in language, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), > >>>but the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean > something > >>>like, "very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that > >>>makes > >>>sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There ar e other > ways I use it > >>>to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am > a strange > >>>person and say and do many strange things. > >>> > >>>-C > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! > >> > >>M > >> > >> > > > >Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." > >Pak the cah in Havad's yad. > >I love New England! > >-C > > > > > Yeah, but there's hardly any parking in Harvard Yard; you > gotta go on Garden St. or maybe Brattle St. to find anything. > I usually just leave my cah in my apahtment pahking space, > and walk the ten minutes to Hahvid instead. > > I find, after only seven and a half years in the Boston area > (Chestnut Hill & Somerville, if you must know), that I don't > really drop Rs; I add them. I occasionally have trouble with > Lawr and other such words, but I normally speak in the good > ol' unaccented Miami dialect. So people mistake me for > Canadian. I don't know why; every Canadian I've met has had a > Canadian accent (including my boss). > > Jose > Lots of French Canadians in Florida, from all reports. I've an aunt who retired to Miami in the 70's. Perhaps there is an influence on the "Miami dialect", although to be seriously confused with Canadian you'd have to be shortening your dipthongs (ou's in particular). I like "unaccented Miami dialect". Everyone thinks they lack an accent. I speak in an unaccented Canadian dialect; everyone around me speaks in a California accent. It's the world that's crazy, not me. Shawn From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 1 13:48:40 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:48:40 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: <47A067DA.53597DBC.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:19:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose Marquez writes: >MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >>In a message dated 2/1/2005 3:27:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: >> >> ? >> >>>On 31 Jan 2005 at 17:31, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote >>> >>> ? ? >>> >>>>In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Shawn >>>>Burns" writes: >>>> >>>> ? ? ? >>>> >>>>>Language is like a thingamajig. >>>>> >>>>>There is always change and evolution in language, >>>>> ? ? ? ? >>>>> >>>>Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), but >>>>the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean something like, >>>>"very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that makes >>>>sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There ar e other ways I use it >>>>to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am a strange >>>>person and say and do many strange things. >>>> >>>>-C >>>> >>>> ? ? ? >>>> >>>You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! >>> >>>M >>> ? ? >>> >> >>Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." >>Pak the cah in Havad's yad. >>I love New England! >>-C >> ? >> >Yeah, but there's hardly any parking in Harvard Yard; you gotta go on >Garden St. or maybe Brattle St. to find anything. I usually just leave >my cah in my apahtment pahking space, and walk the ten minutes to Hahvid >instead. > >I find, after only seven and a half years in the Boston area (Chestnut >Hill & Somerville, if you must know), that I don't really drop Rs; I add >them. I occasionally have trouble with Lawr and other such words, but I >normally speak in the good ol' unaccented Miami dialect. So people >mistake me for Canadian. I don't know why; every Canadian I've met has >had a Canadian accent (including my boss). > >Jose > I usually find that with the adding "r"'s is either French-Canadian, or New Hampshire alone. My dad comes from 100% F-C, but he's also a NH native. Everyone on his side would say "Chiner," while my mom, being a mix of a bunch of nice stuff and being a native of Mass would say "cah." I am glad to not say "Chiner." -C >-- >Jose Marquez ? ? ? ? ? ? | There are 10 types of people in >jhereg69 at earthlink.net ? | the world: those who understand >http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > > From rone at ennui.org Tue Feb 1 13:49:56 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:49:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20050201214956.D9EB326D41@boredom.ennui.org> Steve Brust writes: Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), but I've always used that phrase in this sense: "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in Iraq." In other words, "begs the question" means something like, "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." Is this correct, or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? You're asking the poor phrase to do too much work. "begs the question" has a meaning; let's not overload it. "raises the question" or "leads to the question" is correct, and if the question is simultaneously answered, that tells me that whoever wrote the above quote needs an editor and a beating. rone -- Remember Remember It's tilted From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Feb 1 14:13:23 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:13:23 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <200502012147.j11LlRTi024761@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41FFB8B3.24208.113375A@localhost> On 1 Feb 2005 at 13:47, Shawn Burns wrote > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 1:20 PM > > To: Dragaera > > Subject: Re: evolution in languege: OT > > > > MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 2/1/2005 3:27:33 PM Eastern Standard > > Time, "Michele Riccio" writes: > > > > > > > > > > > >>On 31 Jan 2005 at 17:31, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>In a message dated 1/31/2005 3:10:46 PM Eastern Standard > > Time, "Shawn > > >>>Burns" writes: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>Language is like a thingamajig. > > >>>> > > >>>>There is always change and evolution in language, > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that > > >>>effect), but the way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to > > >>>mean > > something > > >>>like, "very" or "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that > > >>> makes sense) (wicked cold, wicked awesome). There ar e other > > ways I use it > > >>>to, but I don't think anyone would understand them as I am > > a strange > > >>>person and say and do many strange things. > > >>> > > >>>-C > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! > > >> > > >>M > > >> > > >> > > > > > >Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." > > >Pak the cah in Havad's yad. > > >I love New England! > > >-C > > > > > > > > Yeah, but there's hardly any parking in Harvard Yard; you > > gotta go on Garden St. or maybe Brattle St. to find anything. > > I usually just leave my cah in my apahtment pahking space, > > and walk the ten minutes to Hahvid instead. > > > > I find, after only seven and a half years in the Boston area > > (Chestnut Hill & Somerville, if you must know), that I don't > > really drop Rs; I add them. I occasionally have trouble with > > Lawr and other such words, but I normally speak in the good > > ol' unaccented Miami dialect. So people mistake me for > > Canadian. I don't know why; every Canadian I've met has had a > > Canadian accent (including my boss). > > > > Jose > > > > Lots of French Canadians in Florida, from all reports. I've an aunt > who retired to Miami in the 70's. Perhaps there is an influence on the > "Miami dialect", although to be seriously confused with Canadian you'd > have to be shortening your dipthongs (ou's in particular). > > I like "unaccented Miami dialect". Everyone thinks they lack an > accent. I speak in an unaccented Canadian dialect; everyone around me > speaks in a California accent. It's the world that's crazy, not me. > > Shawn I've always said that I lack an accent because we Bostonians were here first (yes, OK, first after the native tribes) - and the rest of the country is simply wrong in their pronunciation. ;-) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From asr at ufl.edu Tue Feb 1 14:13:54 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:13:54 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:49:56 PST." <20050201214956.D9EB326D41@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <200502012213.j11MDuaA144448@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:49:56 -0800 (PST), rone at ennui.org (rone) said: > Steve Brust writes: >> "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and >> major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in >> Iraq." > You're asking the poor phrase to do too much work. "begs the question" has > a meaning; let's not overload it. "raises the question" or "leads to the > question" is correct, [...] "Demands the question" could work, I might even go so near as "pleads for the question", to evoke the image the author probably desired, of 'just begging that any observer ask this obvious question'. - Allen S. Rout From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Feb 1 14:52:15 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:52:15 -0600 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <41FFB8B3.24208.113375A@localhost> References: <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> <41FFB8B3.24208.113375A@localhost> Message-ID: <20050201225215.GA4459@infodancer.org> On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 05:13:23PM -0500, Michele Riccio wrote: > I've always said that I lack an accent because we Bostonians were > here first (yes, OK, first after the native tribes) - and the rest of the > country is simply wrong in their pronunciation. ;-) By that argument, no one in England has an accent. Reality seems to disagree. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 1 15:10:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:10:51 -0700 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <41FFB8B3.24208.113375A@localhost> Message-ID: <000801c508b3$46b0fea0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Michele Riccio wrote: > I've always said that I lack an accent because we Bostonians were > here first (yes, OK, first after the native tribes) - and the rest of > the country is simply wrong in their pronunciation. ;-) I've read that the closest we will find to how Robin Hood spoke is in the back woods of Appalachia. Less isolated places have changed way too much. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 15:55:25 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:55:25 -0600 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... In-Reply-To: <1107272061.2394.55.camel@localhost> References: <156.498d04d7.2f2d3b8d@aol.com> <9fd7cf641dce7234042055546d0876fe@ipfw.edu> <1107272061.2394.55.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <420016ED.30905@comcast.net> Steve, You Got Away With It, all right. I've read Athyra several times . . . Feh! Mia Steve Brust wrote: >On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 10:39, Matthew Walsh wrote: > > >>On Jan 29, 2005, at 2:18 PM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >> >> >>>FRIEDA2133.aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:58:11 EST >>> >>> >>[ snip ] >> >> >>>Vlad speaking to Savn: >>> Savn glanced back at him, but still wasn't certain if he were >>>joking. 'It's easy to tell the difference,' he said, 'When you make >>>the seedblocks and leave them in the coolhouse in barrels, the >>>true, true salad flax will melt--' >>> >>> >>Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, now the >>whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that pun. >> >> >> > >I beg to submit that, if the passage didn't bother you when you first >read it, before you caught that, I officially Got Away With It. > > > > > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 1 16:20:31 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:20:31 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 13:04, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > Okay, someone check me if I'm wrong--I also like it when someone > > corrects my English errors (one of many reasons I so adore Pamela), but > > I've always used that phrase in this sense: > > > > "Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and > > major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in > > Iraq." In other words, "begs the question" means something like, > > "raises the question and simultaneously answers it." Is this correct, > > or am I asking the poor phrase to do too much work? > > My guess is that prescriptivists like me and Mark will consider that evil, > descriptivists won't get the circular part, and those in the middle will > wonder what You mean - a lose-lose-lose scenario unless You're trying to > fly under the radar smoothly as melted flax. > From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 21:43:32 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:43:32 -0700 Subject: duh! References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Philip Hart" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: RE: duh! > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > I'll admit I had to look that term up. I was amused at the result, in my opinion it's a null term. Language is a living thing, how can one judge it? What standard do you use? Just pick a date and call that particular style correct? Of course, I slip into several different languages and dialects without thinking about it, so it shouldn't be surprising that I wouldn't find the term particularly meaningful. Jeff G. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 1 17:20:15 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:20:15 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 21:43, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > > > I'll admit I had to look that term up. I was amused at the result, in my > opinion it's a null term. Language is a living thing, how can one judge it? Heretic! ;-) > What standard do you use? Just pick a date and call that particular style > correct? One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, they make the language more flexible, elegant, and capable of making fine distinctions. If there is a change that is coming into vogue that one doesn't care for, one avoids that usage, and perhaps even argues against it. This is almost always a losing battle, but generally worth fighting anyway. In any case, the distinction between descriptivist and prescriptivist is quite real: compare a Webster's dictionary to an American Heritage dictionary. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 1 22:22:46 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:22:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > Perhaps You've never seen http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Whom-peeves.html - note the diaeresis in Ortho... Also note that prescriptivism doesn't have the best reputation in some parts. But consider my hero Fowler - he mocked those who insist on avoiding simple split infinitives. As in so many things there is a spectrum - no one on this list would advocate abandoning the distinction between "it's" and "its" because half the people on the internets have; I'm happy to end sentences with prepositions if that's where my head is at. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 1 22:28:18 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > > Also, some of us prescriptivists suck at identifying irony, even if we're the only ones who know what the word means... From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 22:33:49 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:33:49 -0700 Subject: duh! References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Jeff Gibbons" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:20 PM Subject: Re: duh! > One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, That's just it, with language, how do you judge who's opinion is correct? Or maybe I have been hanging out with engineers too much, dealing with absolutes. Jeff G. (who feels that heretic is an apt discription) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 1 22:48:22 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:48:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brust" > > > > One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, > > > That's just it, with language, how do you judge who's opinion is correct? > > Or maybe I have been hanging out with engineers too much, dealing with > absolutes. Yup, ask two engineers how to route a board, or what language to write the code in, or which scope's the best, and you'll get one answer. Or perhaps what units to work in... From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 1 17:58:30 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:58:30 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107309510.2781.6.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Well, I am certainly a prescriptivist. I'd never end a sentence with a preposition; that's the silliest idea I've ever heard of. On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 22:22, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > > > > > Perhaps You've never seen > http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Whom-peeves.html > - note the diaeresis in Ortho... > > Also note that prescriptivism doesn't have the best reputation in some > parts. But consider my hero Fowler - he mocked those who insist on > avoiding simple split infinitives. As in so many things there is a > spectrum - no one on this list would advocate abandoning the distinction > between "it's" and "its" because half the people on the internets have; > I'm happy to end sentences with prepositions if that's where my head is > at. > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 1 18:01:22 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:01:22 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 22:33, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brust" > To: "Jeff Gibbons" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: duh! > > > One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, > > > That's just it, with language, how do you judge who's opinion is > correct? > Ummm...by considering the arguments? When I say, "such-and-such a change loses us an important distinction without gaining any benefit," you might claim the the distinction is not important; you might think; what we gain IS important; or you might agree with me. From corwin at mpls.cx Tue Feb 1 23:56:18 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 01:56:18 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <200502012213.j11MDuaA144448@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> References: <200502012213.j11MDuaA144448@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <420087A2.9070300@mpls.cx> asr at ufl.edu wrote: >==> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:49:56 -0800 (PST), rone at ennui.org (rone) said: > > > >>Steve Brust writes: >> >> > > > >>>"Bush was elected primarily by the backing of such industries as oil and >>>major finance, which begs the question of who is served by the war in >>>Iraq." >>> >>> > > > > >>You're asking the poor phrase to do too much work. "begs the question" has >>a meaning; let's not overload it. "raises the question" or "leads to the >>question" is correct, [...] >> >> > > >"Demands the question" could work, I might even go so near as "pleads for the >question", to evoke the image the author probably desired, of 'just begging >that any observer ask this obvious question'. > > Perhaps "begs for the question", though I think one reason "begs the question" is misused so often is that neither your alternatives nor the one I've offered seems to roll quite as trippingly off the tongue. OTOH I think "raises the question" is fairly smooth. Granted, all this is IMO, and clearly fairly subjective. Perhaps another reason for the common (prevalent?) misuse of "begs the question" is the it, and other such deterministic phrases are favored by scholars who have for some time been read by those of us who don't really grok (and are oft too lazy to research) the somewhat technical meanings of phrases used in technical writings In any case, I have an AP comp. class taken in high-school to thank for my ability to state, as fact, that using "begs the question" to mean "raises the question" is poor form because that usage sucks. From rone at ennui.org Wed Feb 2 00:22:47 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:22:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050202082247.A3FAA26D4C@boredom.ennui.org> Jeff Gibbons writes: Language is a living thing, how can one judge it? Man, i hate you "language is a living thing" people. Language is most certainly a living thing, but would you rather it were a vertebrate or a fungus? rone -- Remember Remember It's tilted From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Feb 2 00:57:02 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 02:57:02 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050202082247.A3FAA26D4C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20050202082247.A3FAA26D4C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <420095DE.4050304@mpls.cx> rone wrote: >Jeff Gibbons writes: > Language is a living thing, how can one judge it? > >Man, i hate you "language is a living thing" people. Language is most >certainly a living thing, but would you rather it were a vertebrate or >a fungus? > > > Rather? IDK. Words are pretty clearly fungal, though. They growing in the dark places and different ones make different people different degrees of sick. You can make your own, but that doesn't mean anyone will enjoy them. Vertebrate or not, however, some evolutionary process is inevitable. Like it or not, and I mostly don't like it, the evolution of American English seems bent toward ease of use and not precision. From ginni.berger at juno.com Tue Feb 1 17:27:17 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:27:17 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: <20050202.064854.3212.4.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:42:39 -0500 MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >> > > >You left out my favorite - "wicked pissa"! > > > >M > > Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." > Pak the cah in Havad's yad. > I love New England! > -C > My father went to Blair Academy in New England when he was a boy, and then graduated from Yale, so he always said "idear," which got passed on to my brother, Tim. One time, we were all teasing him about it, and he said "I don't say idear, I say idear." He still hasn't lived it down. ;-) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal From asr at ufl.edu Wed Feb 2 04:34:55 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 07:34:55 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2005 01:56:18 CST." <420087A2.9070300@mpls.cx> Message-ID: <200502021234.j12CYtaA159176@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 01:56:18 -0600, Corwin Brust said: > asr at ufl.edu wrote: >> "Demands the question" could work, I might even go so near as "pleads for the >> question", to evoke the image the author probably desired, of 'just begging >> that any observer ask this obvious question'. > Perhaps "begs for the question", though I think one reason "begs the > question" is misused so often is that neither your alternatives nor the one > I've offered seems to roll quite as trippingly off the tongue. OTOH I think > "raises the question" is fairly smooth. Yeah, I think 'raises' is probably most effective here. If you want to emphasize it you can do something pratchett-esqe like "Raises it all the way to orbit, in fact", or "Raises it so high that it decides that all the other questions look like ants scurrying around down there". - Allen S. Rout From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 06:18:03 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:18:03 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <420087A2.9070300@mpls.cx> References: <200502012213.j11MDuaA144448@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> <420087A2.9070300@mpls.cx> Message-ID: <4200E11B.8010601@earthlink.net> Corwin Brust wrote: > In any case, I have an AP comp. class taken in high-school to thank > for my ability to state, as fact, that using "begs the question" to > mean "raises the question" is poor form because that usage sucks. > That's fantastically funny. I'm going to have to add that to my "making a point" list of sig files, along with my top-posting favorite: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail? Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 06:23:39 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:23:39 -0700 Subject: duh! References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: > > > > > > > One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, > > > > > > That's just it, with language, how do you judge who's opinion is > > correct? > > > > Ummm...by considering the arguments? When I say, "such-and-such a > change loses us an important distinction without gaining any benefit," > you might claim the the distinction is not important; you might think; > what we gain IS important; or you might agree with me. > > But which arguments are correct? You have, if I am not mistaken, lived in Minnesota and Las Vegas. Think on the differences in American English between the two locations, and the nuances in language. Would different individuals from each location agree on the importance of any change in language? Or even think to implement it? And that is a minor geographic change, what of UK English? As Corwin stated, English is a language that is being constantly tailored for ease of use, not precision. With the ease of travel, television, and the internet, we may eventually have a global standard of English, but as of today it is so fractured that there is no hope of putting it back together again. Jeff G. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 06:39:45 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:39:45 +0100 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." wrote: >With the ease of >travel, television, and the internet, we may eventually have a global >standard of English, but as of today it is so fractured that there is no >hope of putting it back together again. > >Jeff G. Well, I know that with radio and TV Swedish has actually become much more standardized in the last hundred years, and I suspect it's the same with English. We're moving towards conformity, not away from it. Or maybe both ways at the same time. ;) Regards /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 07:59:49 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:59:49 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: <0ED6C096.3DFCA0FF.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 5:13:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michele Riccio" writes >> >> Lots of French Canadians in Florida, from all reports. I've an aunt >> who retired to Miami in the 70's. Perhaps there is an influence on the >> "Miami dialect", although to be seriously confused with Canadian you'd >> have to be shortening your dipthongs (ou's in particular). >> >> I like "unaccented Miami dialect". Everyone thinks they lack an >> accent. I speak in an unaccented Canadian dialect; everyone around me >> speaks in a California accent. It's the world that's crazy, not me. >> >> Shawn > >I've always said that I lack an accent because we Bostonians were >here first (yes, OK, first after the native tribes) - and the rest of the >country is simply wrong in their pronunciation. ?;-) > >M > > Damn stright! (Lowell born, and raised...close enough to Boston) -C >Michele Riccio >mr1 at rcosta.com > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 08:04:09 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:04:09 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT Message-ID: <4323C3F0.56C1EA51.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 5:52:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: >On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 05:13:23PM -0500, Michele Riccio wrote: >> I've always said that I lack an accent because we Bostonians were >> here first (yes, OK, first after the native tribes) - and the rest of the >> country is simply wrong in their pronunciation. ?;-) > >By that argument, no one in England has an accent. ?Reality seems >to disagree. > >-- (Just 'cause it's fun)... We had to diferentiate (sp?) ourselves as much as possible from the English, so we changed the accent :o) Has anyone heard of Jeremy Hotz? He cracks on Texan accents... it's wicked funny **refrains from falling on floor and getting weird stares** -C >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) >Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt >Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp >Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 08:08:09 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:08:09 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <422FC708.63C6CB89.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:47:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Shawn Burns" writes: > >Lots of French Canadians in Florida, from all reports. I've an aunt who >retired to Miami in the 70's. Perhaps there is an influence on the "Miami >dialect", although to be seriously confused with Canadian you'd have to be >shortening your dipthongs (ou's in particular). > >I like "unaccented Miami dialect". Everyone thinks they lack an accent. I >speak in an unaccented Canadian dialect; everyone around me speaks in a >California accent. It's the world that's crazy, not me. > >Shawn > > > And to have this a little on topic, when Vlad speaks to Svan, he points out that he could tell Vlad was from somewhere south, or when Vlad and Morrolan talk to the Cat Centaurs, they speak Dragaeran, but with out and accent (I am pretty sure that's what it says). Any other refrences to accents in Dragaera? -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 08:17:19 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:17:19 -0500 Subject: 'cause it's not "duh" anymore Message-ID: <3AAB4E1F.26F1FA54.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005 1:22:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, Philip Hart writes: >Perhaps You've never seen >http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Whom-peeves.html >- note the diaeresis in Ortho... > >Also note that prescriptivism doesn't have the best reputation in some >parts. ?But consider my hero Fowler - he mocked those who insist on >avoiding simple split infinitives. ?As in so many things there is a >spectrum - no one on this list would advocate abandoning the distinction >between "it's" and "its" because half the people on the internets have; >I'm happy to end sentences with prepositions if that's where my head is >at. > I see the difference between "it's" and its". I was going to be an English teacher, but decided I didn't want to take math to ge there. Sometimes, when people make grammatical (I'll never be able to spell) error, it's 'cause they are too lazy to think about. I know I make them, and it bothers me, so sometimes, I go through and correct myself. I gave up correcting other people, especially since they thought it was annoying... so I'll close my mouth..er stop typeing now. -C From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 2 08:35:06 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:35:06 -0700 Subject: evolution in languege: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <422FC708.63C6CB89.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <422FC708.63C6CB89.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:08:09 -0500, wrote: > And to have this a little on topic, when Vlad speaks to Svan, he points > out that he could tell Vlad was from somewhere south, or when > Vlad and Morrolan talk to the Cat Centaurs, they speak Dragaeran, but > with out and accent (I am pretty sure that's what it says). Any > other refrences to accents in Dragaera? What is interesting is that he can pass as a member of a different species, albeit one with a southern accent. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Feb 2 09:25:00 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:25:00 -0500 Subject: Next up in the Vladiad... Message-ID: <64ACF5AC.52B48C26.00048EA6@aol.com> Steve Brust writes: >On Tue, 2005-02-01 at 10:39, Matthew Walsh wrote: >> Ouch. I didn't notice that one before. And what's worse, >> now the whole exchange looks to me like an excuse for that >> pun. > > I beg to submit that, if the passage didn't bother you when > you first read it, before you caught that, I officially Got > Away With It. Yeah, and you Got Away With the fort/fortress joke too. And I still can't decide if Paarfi knows that it's a joke or not. PS to DD-B: The book search is acting funny; you only get the text from the first result shown, the others are blank. And what does TPG-103 represent? --KG From paulw at videoideas.com Wed Feb 2 10:12:40 2005 From: paulw at videoideas.com (paul) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:12:40 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) References: <422FC708.63C6CB89.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c50952$c915e230$6501a8c0@Paul> Contains a spoiler... or might lead to a spoiler... [snip] > or when Vlad and Morrolan talk to the Cat Centaurs, they speak Dragaeran, but with out and accent (I am pretty sure that's what it says). Any other refrences to accents in Dragaera? > > -C This reminded me of something I've been meaning to track down. When Vlad and Morrolan were heading to the Paths of the Dead, there was a moment where Morrolan did something rather odd to a statue (I believe it was referred to as a ritual). The text seemed extremely vague, and Vlad in recounting it, seemed embarrassed to elaborate. I just finished _Sethra_ a few days ago, and was trying to determine if the information I learned in it helped me solve this puzzle. My assumption now is that Morrolan took a piss on a statue of... well, the name escapes me at the moment. The God that Morrolan banished/killed/whatever. Starts with an "O". I'm sure this has been discussed, what's the current thinking about what actually took place? Further, I seem to recall that Morrolan took off his clothes. Maybe this is faulty memory. I had a lot of fun in the 90's and killed many brain cells. Concerning the "Evolution in languege" thread. First, is the spelling of languege intended as some kind of entomology joke or was that a simple mistake? Second, you guys crack me up. There is something wonderful about watching/reading people get (what is to me) neurotic about a topic I can barely understand. I'm certain that in this message alone, I've made a number of horrendous errors. I apologize to all of you who are irked by things that I'm not even aware of. Keep it up, it makes for fun reading and actually teaches me something from time to time. -paul w- From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Feb 2 10:46:03 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:46:03 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> At 09:39 02/02/2005, Martin Wohlert wrote: >Well, I know that with radio and TV Swedish has actually become much more >standardized in the last hundred years, and I suspect it's the same with >English. We're moving towards conformity, not away from it. Or maybe both >ways at the same time. ;) There was a recent PBS series about the English language (which, unfortunately, I only saw part of). Anyway, what I saw pointed out that the regional language is still changing, in pronunciation as well as vocabulary. The example used was the word "bus", which New Yorkers now pronounce "boss"--something that wasn't true 50 years ago. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From mneme at io.com Wed Feb 2 10:49:45 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:49:45 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Peter H. Granzeau writes: >vocabulary. The example used was the word "bus", which New Yorkers now >pronounce "boss"--something that wasn't true 50 years ago. We do? Nowhere I've ever seen. We pronounce it "bus". b-uh-s. "boss" is pronounced " b-awe-s. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 2 10:57:40 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Feb 2 11:01:35 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:01:35 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:57:40 PST." Message-ID: <200502021901.j12J1Zt1017034@vice-grips.mit.edu> I can certainly distinguish "merry" from the other two. I'm not aware of a difference in pronunciation between "marry" and "Mary". > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? > From mneme at io.com Wed Feb 2 11:05:32 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:05:32 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <16897.9340.449489.714634@fnord.io.com> Philip Hart writes: >So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? *raises hand*. meh-ry mah-ry mare-ry -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Feb 2 11:07:00 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:07:00 -0700 Subject: duh! Message-ID: Merry and Mary are the hardest for me - sort of a meh-ry and a Mare-y different - the first syllable on Mary being longer than merry... Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:58 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: duh! So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From s1burns at ucsd.edu Wed Feb 2 11:08:52 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:08:52 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502021908.j12J8rTi014752@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:58 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: duh! > > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", > "marry", and "Mary"? > > I can't distinguish between "Mary" and "merry". But I pronoucne "marry" slightly differntly than either. Other people don't always do this, so if someone else were to say the word I might not notice any difference. Shawn From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 2 11:07:42 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:07:42 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:46:03 -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 09:39 02/02/2005, Martin Wohlert wrote: > >> Well, I know that with radio and TV Swedish has actually become much >> more standardized in the last hundred years, and I suspect it's the >> same with English. We're moving towards conformity, not away from it. >> Or maybe both ways at the same time. ;) > > There was a recent PBS series about the English language (which, > unfortunately, I only saw part of). Anyway, what I saw pointed out that > the regional language is still changing, in pronunciation as well as > vocabulary. The example used was the word "bus", which New Yorkers now > pronounce "boss"--something that wasn't true 50 years ago. If you're refering to _The Story of English_, I wish I had watched more of it. The book is excellent. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From frank at exit.com Wed Feb 2 11:11:38 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) In-Reply-To: <001501c50952$c915e230$6501a8c0@Paul> Message-ID: <200502021911.j12JBdwr067445@realtime.exit.com> paul wrote: > some kind of entomology joke This kind of thing just bugs the hell out of me. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 2 11:12:01 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:12:01 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:57:40 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and > "Mary"? When I say them, I think I hear differences. But my mother Mary Dawn objects when she hears someone call her Mary Don. I hear the difference when I say it, but don't hear the difference when she says it, so I'm not sure the difference makes it out of our head. Brits (or at least English), complain when USAmericans treat Harry and Hairy as homonyms. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 11:25:19 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:25:19 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marry, quotha! ;) James Still Another Vlad faN >From: Philip Hart >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: duh! >Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) > >So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? > From Raellew at aol.com Wed Feb 2 11:39:17 2005 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:39:17 EST Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) Message-ID: <1f3.4b29369.2f328665@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005, Frank Mayhar writes: paul wrote: >> some kind of entomology joke > >This kind of thing just bugs the hell out of me. "Mark, why does that crate have air holes?" Rae From gomi at pollywog.com Wed Feb 2 11:57:13 2005 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:57:13 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <42013099.2080402@pollywog.com> Philip Hart wrote: >So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? > > > > > Er, those are all pronounced distinctly from each other. It's not hard. pe From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 2 12:05:26 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:05:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> References: <27E3C197.6258F46C.00184D6D@aol.com> <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: @> >Ah, yes, and the eva popula "er" changed to "a." @> >Pak the cah in Havad's yad. @> >I love New England! @> >-C @> > @> Yeah, but there's hardly any parking in Harvard Yard; you gotta go on @> Garden St. or maybe Brattle St. to find anything. I usually just leave @> my cah in my apahtment pahking space, and walk the ten minutes to Hahvid @> instead. I just take the bus. Or walk, since I'm only forty minutes away. Incidentally, most people at Hahrvahd Yahd (where I work) don't say "wicked pissah". Or at least they pretend that they don't. @> I find, after only seven and a half years in the Boston area (Chestnut @> Hill & Somerville, if you must know), that I don't really drop Rs; I add @> them. I occasionally have trouble with Lawr and other such words, but I @> normally speak in the good ol' unaccented Miami dialect. So people @> mistake me for Canadian. I don't know why; every Canadian I've met has @> had a Canadian accent (including my boss). Hmm. Despite a couple of decades in this area, I don't seem to have picked up either the adding or dropping habits. I suspect this is due to too much reading in my room and not enough socializing. Also: in the Paarfiad, there is a set of directions which includes the phrase "you can't get there from here"; given that this occurs in a port city with a river running through it and a certain amount of confusion as to which part is in which direction from the present position based on the generally deceptive names given to said parts, I made certain assumptions with a mental note reminding me to check on whether other people made the assumptions, which I have just now remembered to actually do as a result of this conversation. So: did that sound like Boston to anybody else? From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 2 12:09:17 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:09:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <42013099.2080402@pollywog.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> <42013099.2080402@pollywog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Paul Echeverri wrote: @> >So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? @> > @> Er, those are all pronounced distinctly from each other. It's not hard. You'd be surprised. For instance, I can't distinguish them. (I have similar trouble with ferry and fairy, although apparently I actually pronounce them differently without being aware of it.) From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Wed Feb 2 12:13:58 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:13:58 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Paul Echeverri wrote: > > @> >So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and > "Mary"? > @> > > @> Er, those are all pronounced distinctly from each other. It's not hard. > > You'd be surprised. For instance, I can't distinguish them. > > (I have similar trouble with ferry and fairy, although apparently I > actually pronounce them differently without being aware of it.) How about Perry and parry? From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 12:13:46 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:13:46 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) Message-ID: <43EE2B67.2A226EC5.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005 1:12:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, "paul" writes: >Contains a spoiler... or might lead to a spoiler... > > >This reminded me of something I've been meaning to track down. When Vlad and >Morrolan were heading to the Paths of the Dead, there was a moment where >Morrolan did something rather odd to a statue (I believe it was referred to >as a ritual). The text seemed extremely vague, and Vlad in recounting it, >seemed embarrassed to elaborate. I just finished _Sethra_ a few days ago, I haven't read _Sethra_ yet, but I was wondering about that too. In _Dragon_, Vlad mentions he remembers Morrolan doing something to the statue on the way to the paths, and only remembers it then and can't figure out what brought on the memory. The first time I read that, I went back through the books and saw no mention of it. "Memory is like a whatchacallit." -C >and was trying to determine if the information I learned in it helped me >solve this puzzle. My assumption now is that Morrolan took a piss on a >statue of... well, the name escapes me at the moment. The God that Morrolan >banished/killed/whatever. Starts with an "O". I'm sure this has been >discussed, what's the current thinking about what actually took place? >Further, I seem to recall that Morrolan took off his clothes. Maybe this is >faulty memory. I had a lot of fun in the 90's and killed many brain cells. > >Concerning the "Evolution in languege" thread. First, is the spelling of >languege intended as some kind of entomology joke or was that a simple >mistake? Second, you guys crack me up. There is something wonderful about >watching/reading people get (what is to me) neurotic about a topic I can >barely understand. I'm certain that in this message alone, I've made a >number of horrendous errors. I apologize to all of you who are irked by >things that I'm not even aware of. Keep it up, it makes for fun reading and >actually teaches me something from time to time. > >-paul w- > > > From scs at di.org Wed Feb 2 12:03:22 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:03:22 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: References: <27E3C197.6258F46C.00184D6D@aol.com> <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050202200322.GA16527@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> > I find, after only seven and a half years in the Boston area (Chestnut > Hill & Somerville, if you must know), that I don't really drop Rs; I add > them. I occasionally have trouble with Lawr and other such words, but I > normally speak in the good ol' unaccented Miami dialect. So people > mistake me for Canadian. I don't know why; every Canadian I've met has > had a Canadian accent (including my boss). After splitting my language forming years between New Jersey, Indiana, and largely Latino areas of Southern California, no matter where I go everyone else has an accent. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From asr at ufl.edu Wed Feb 2 12:39:15 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:39:15 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:39:17 EST." <1f3.4b29369.2f328665@aol.com> Message-ID: <200502022039.j12KdFaA077184@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:39:17 EST, Raellew at aol.com said: > In a message dated 2/2/2005, Frank Mayhar writes: > paul wrote: >>> some kind of entomology joke >> >> This kind of thing just bugs the hell out of me. > "Mark, why does that crate have air holes?" Crossing the streams is -BAD-. Don't cross the streams. - Allen S. Rout From scs at di.org Wed Feb 2 11:50:51 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:50:51 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20050202195051.GB16301@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 10:57:40AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? Does two out of three count? I go the first one as 'meh-rry', the second two as 'mah-rry'. It's subtler than that in use, but the initial vowel is definately different. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From scs at di.org Wed Feb 2 12:52:11 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:52:11 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) In-Reply-To: <200502022039.j12KdFaA077184@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> References: <1f3.4b29369.2f328665@aol.com> <200502022039.j12KdFaA077184@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <20050202205211.GA16734@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 03:39:15PM -0500, asr at ufl.edu wrote: > Crossing the streams is -BAD-. Don't cross the streams. Yeah, you could spatter your boots. Or worse. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From paulw at videoideas.com Wed Feb 2 13:23:18 2005 From: paulw at videoideas.com (paul) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:23:18 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) References: <1f3.4b29369.2f328665@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c5096d$6d7de6a0$6501a8c0@Paul> > > In a message dated 2/2/2005, Frank Mayhar writes: > > paul wrote: > >> some kind of entomology joke > > > >This kind of thing just bugs the hell out of me. > > "Mark, why does that crate have air holes?" > > Rae Ha! Oops. I knew I should have looked that one up. Serves me right trying to use big words... sorry Frank. -paul- From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 13:36:02 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:36:02 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) Message-ID: <67CB9E3B.1806CB09.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005 3:39:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, asr at ufl.edu writes: >> "Mark, why does that crate have air holes?" > > > >Crossing the streams is -BAD-. ?Don't cross the streams. > > >- Allen S. Rout > Ghost Busters? -C From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Feb 2 13:46:21 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:46:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) Message-ID: <200502022146.j12LkLam002931@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> -C Wrote: > In a message dated 2/2/2005 3:39:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, asr at ufl.edu writes: > > > >Crossing the streams is -BAD-. ?Don't cross the streams. > > > > > Ghost Busters? Gods, I hope so. Any other reference is too disgusting to contemplate. "If someone asks if you're a God, you say...YES!" Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 08:52:01 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 08:52:01 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 06:23, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, > > > > > > > > > That's just it, with language, how do you judge who's opinion is > > > correct? > > > > > > > Ummm...by considering the arguments? You appear to be contending that if two people disagree, this indicates that neither is correct. I doubt that is what you mean. I'm not sure what you mean. Which arguments are correct? Uh...that's why we're having the argument, because we want to explore that, and perhaps increase our understanding of a given usage, and language in general. Example: I think the broadening of the word "relationship" is damaging, overall, to language, because it encourages people to think they have said more than they said, and heard more than they heard. I was going to write, "...of the relationship to mean..." only I couldn't think of what it has been broadened to mean. Something to do with sex, only it might not be sex, or with romance, though romance might not be involved. I think this weakens the language. Others disagree with me; they believe that it is useful to have a word that is vague and nebulous when speaking of one's lovelife. I have counter arguments. They have counter arguments to my counter arguments. &c. But, you see, I think I'm right. More, I contend such arguments are worth having. Because through them something can be *settled* and *solved*? No. Because through them, knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Feb 2 13:57:55 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:57:55 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: References: <41FFF274.9090405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42010693.12763.189B0AC@localhost> On 2 Feb 2005 at 15:05, John Klein wrote > Also: in the Paarfiad, there is a set of directions which includes the > phrase "you can't get there from here"; given that this occurs in a > port city with a river running through it and a certain amount of > confusion as to which part is in which direction from the present > position based on the generally deceptive names given to said parts, I > made certain assumptions with a mental note reminding me to check on > whether other people made the assumptions, which I have just now > remembered to actually do as a result of this conversation. So: did > that sound like Boston to anybody else? I didn't see it at the time - but now that you mention it, I suppose it does resemble Boston. That brings a warm happy glow to my day, so if it wasn't meant to reflect Boston, I'd rather not know. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From frank at exit.com Wed Feb 2 13:58:14 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:58:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) In-Reply-To: <002d01c5096d$6d7de6a0$6501a8c0@Paul> Message-ID: <200502022158.j12LwEmJ070679@realtime.exit.com> paul wrote: > Ha! Oops. I knew I should have looked that one up. Serves me right trying to > use big words... sorry Frank. No apology necessary. Except maybe to your High School English teacher. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From ike at manor.org Wed Feb 2 13:58:28 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:58:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <200502021901.j12J1Zt1017034@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200502021901.j12J1Zt1017034@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > I can certainly distinguish "merry" from the other two. I'm not aware of > a difference in pronunciation between "marry" and "Mary". > > > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? I say Mary with a stronger first syllable emphasis than marry. Hm. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 14:04:28 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:04:28 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <3327676C.1C097AE6.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005 11:52:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Brust writes: > >You appear to be contending that if two people disagree, this indicates >that neither is correct. ?I doubt that is what you mean. ?I'm not sure >what you mean. ?Which arguments are correct? ?Uh...that's why we're >having the argument, because we want to explore that, and perhaps >increase our understanding of a given usage, and language in general. > >Example: I think the broadening of the word "relationship" is damaging, >overall, to language, because it encourages people to think they have >said more than they said, and heard more than they heard. ?I was going >to write, "...of the relationship to mean..." only I couldn't think of >what it has been broadened to mean. ?Something to do with sex, only it >might not be sex, or with romance, though romance might not be involved. > >I think this weakens the language. ?Others disagree with me; they >believe that it is useful to have a word that is vague and nebulous when >speaking of one's lovelife. ?I have counter arguments. ?They have >counter arguments to my counter arguments. ?&c. > >But, you see, I think I'm right. > >More, I contend such arguments are worth having. ?Because through them >something can be *settled* and *solved*? ?No. ?Because through them, >knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. > > ? > **dreamy look in eyes** Such a wise man...sigh -C > > From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Feb 2 14:54:38 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:54:38 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:57:40 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different pronunciations. From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 2 15:42:10 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:42:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <200502021901.j12J1Zt1017034@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Ike Porter wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > I can certainly distinguish "merry" from the other two. I'm not aware of > > a difference in pronunciation between "marry" and "Mary". > > > > > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? > > I say Mary with a stronger first syllable emphasis than marry. Hm. The pronounciation difference between a single and a double r is pretty distinct to my ear, but then I'm fluent in Spanish. pe From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 2 15:36:29 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > More, I contend such arguments are worth having. Because through them > something can be *settled* and *solved*? No. Because through them, > knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. If an argument isn't being had to settle and solve an issue, there's precious little point in having one. Knowledge and understanding are hardly to be had in the presence of continued ambiguity. pe From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 2 15:52:19 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:52:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > More, I contend such arguments are worth having. Because through them > > something can be *settled* and *solved*? No. Because through them, > > knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. > > If an argument isn't being had to settle and solve an issue, there's precious > little point in having one. Knowledge and understanding are hardly to be > had in the presence of continued ambiguity. Oh, I've had arguments which didn't solve anything but taught me stuff about the subject - e.g., I've never solved the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I've learned from those I've sparred with, gaining both knowledge (about history) and understanding (why the other side feels aggrieved). I've also had arguments which taught me I shouldn't discuss certain subjects with certain people... From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 11:14:36 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:14:36 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 15:36, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > More, I contend such arguments are worth having. Because through them > > something can be *settled* and *solved*? No. Because through them, > > knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. > > If an argument isn't being had to settle and solve an issue, there's precious > little point in having one. Knowledge and understanding are hardly to be > had in the presence of continued ambiguity. I must disagree. I would submit, on the contrary, that anything which can be settled unambiguously is not worth arguing about. Thoughts do not emerge from a vacuum, but rather are a product of our interaction with the world. The world around us filled with conflicts and contradictions; the process of cognition necessarily reflects this. Informed argument can bring these contradictions to the surface, which, in general, is an excellent way to increase our understanding of the world. In particular, given that most thought takes place in language, arguments over language usage are an excellent way to sharpen our minds. And if you happen to disagree that "most thought takes place in language" then we have an excellent subject to argue about, don't we? And if you would dispute my assertion that the material reality is filled with contradictions, we have another. From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 16:17:19 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:17:19 -0800 Subject: evolution in languege: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: <422FC708.63C6CB89.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: > On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:08:09 -0500, wrote: > >> And to have this a little on topic, when Vlad speaks to Svan, he >> points out that he could tell Vlad was from somewhere south, or when >> Vlad and Morrolan talk to the Cat Centaurs, they speak Dragaeran, but >> with out and accent (I am pretty sure that's what it says). Any >> other refrences to accents in Dragaera? > > What is interesting is that he can pass as a member of a different > species, albeit one with a southern accent. > > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > Wasn't there a dialect/accent that was peculiar to the Kanefthali Mountains...? From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 2 16:23:07 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 15:36, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > > > More, I contend such arguments are worth having. Because through them > > > something can be *settled* and *solved*? No. Because through them, > > > knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. > > > > If an argument isn't being had to settle and solve an issue, there's precious > > little point in having one. Knowledge and understanding are hardly to be > > had in the presence of continued ambiguity. > > I must disagree. I would submit, on the contrary, that anything which > can be settled unambiguously is not worth arguing about. Not once it's settled unambiguously, to be sure. The whole idea is that it is NOT settled before the argument, and settled after. Even if the thing settled is not necessarily what the participants thought to settle going in. All too often, what gets settled is 'is this person someone I want to discuss this matter with any further?' But that's settling something, which (as I said) is the point of arguing. > Thoughts do > not emerge from a vacuum, but rather are a product of our interaction > with the world. The world around us filled with conflicts and > contradictions; the process of cognition necessarily reflects this. > Informed argument can bring these contradictions to the surface, which, > in general, is an excellent way to increase our understanding of the > world. I do not see how this statement is at all in conflict with my own previous assertions -- rather, it is in perfect consonance. It is by argument that we resolve the contradictions, that is, settle matters, through our increased understanding. > In particular, given that most thought takes place in language, > arguments over language usage are an excellent way to sharpen our minds. Precisely so -- discussion allows facts to emerge, and one either fortifies one's own, correct position, or discovers that it is not correct and changes positions. In either case, the discussion allows for greater understanding and eventually settles the topic. > And if you happen to disagree that "most thought takes place in > language" then we have an excellent subject to argue about, don't we? > And if you would dispute my assertion that the material reality is > filled with contradictions, we have another. Not in the least, I assure you. It does appear, however, that we are entering the same room through different doors. pe From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 16:20:54 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:20:54 -0800 Subject: Morrolan's strange ritual (spoiler included) In-Reply-To: <1f3.4b29369.2f328665@aol.com> References: <1f3.4b29369.2f328665@aol.com> Message-ID: <77F4E0AC-7579-11D9-9A46-00039318B776@earthlink.net> > > In a message dated 2/2/2005, Frank Mayhar writes: > > paul wrote: >>> some kind of entomology joke >> >> This kind of thing just bugs the hell out of me. > > "Mark, why does that crate have air holes?" > > Rae > > "Mark, why do the air holes have *screens* in them...?" From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 2 16:31:28 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:31:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > And if you happen to disagree that "most thought takes place in > language" then we have an excellent subject to argue about, don't we? I disagree about "most thought", but instead of arguing out of near-ignorance I'd rather wait for the pet-scan guys to tell me. You and him can fight, of course. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Feb 2 16:54:00 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:54:00 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <19B150F2.28184CF4.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus writes: > Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different > pronunciations. As should "paraffin" and "kerosine". --KG From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Feb 2 16:56:43 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:56:43 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <4200E11B.8010601@earthlink.net> References: <200502012213.j11MDuaA144448@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> <420087A2.9070300@mpls.cx> <4200E11B.8010601@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <420176CB.7070504@mpls.cx> Jose Marquez wrote: > Corwin Brust wrote: > >> In any case, I have an AP comp. class taken in high-school to thank >> for my ability to state, as fact, that using "begs the question" to >> mean "raises the question" is poor form because that usage sucks. > > That's fantastically funny. Thanks! > I'm going to have to add that to my "making a point" list of sig > files, along with my top-posting favorite: > > A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail? I believe quid pro quo has been achieved, thank you. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 11:59:08 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:59:08 -0800 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 16:23, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > I must disagree. I would submit, on the contrary, that anything which > > can be settled unambiguously is not worth arguing about. > > Not once it's settled unambiguously, to be sure. The whole idea is that > it is NOT settled before the argument, and settled after. Even if the thing > settled is not necessarily what the participants thought to settle > going in. All too often, what gets settled is 'is this person someone I > want to discuss this matter with any further?' But that's settling something, > which (as I said) is the point of arguing. > If your experience with arguments is that they end when someone says, "Yes, you're right. I'm convinced," then we are not arguing with the same sorts of people. The closest I ever remember coming to that is once when someone said, "I can't answer your argument, but you haven't convinced me." This astonished me at the time, just because of the astonishing level of intellectual honesty it implied (I've been the same position frequently without admitting it). > > Thoughts do > > not emerge from a vacuum, but rather are a product of our interaction > > with the world. The world around us filled with conflicts and > > contradictions; the process of cognition necessarily reflects this. > > Informed argument can bring these contradictions to the surface, which, > > in general, is an excellent way to increase our understanding of the > > world. > > I do not see how this statement is at all in conflict with my own > previous assertions -- rather, it is in perfect consonance. It is by > argument that we resolve the contradictions, that is, settle matters, > through our increased understanding. > Indeed? We resolve contradictions in the real world through our thoughts? Interesting idea. Here's a real-world contradiction: we live in a society in which the means of production are worked socially, but the results (ie, profits) are appropriated privately; and in which the economy is global, but political government is still determined by nation-states. This produces unending series of economic crises as well as wars over markets and control of resources. Kindly "resolve" that with your thoughts. Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. If that's too tough, I'll give you one that *exists* in thought, and therefore ought to be resolvable that way: A body cannot be in two places at once, nor can it be simultaneously "here" and "not-here." Can you explain *movement* in any way that doesn't involve a exactly those two phenomena? > > In particular, given that most thought takes place in language, > > arguments over language usage are an excellent way to sharpen our minds. > > Precisely so -- discussion allows facts to emerge, and one either > fortifies one's own, correct position, or discovers that it is not > correct and changes positions. In either case, the discussion > allows for greater understanding and eventually settles the topic. > This is asking far too much of facts. Matters that can be settled merely by the recitation of facts are, almost by definition, trivialities, like axioms in mathematics. And, like axioms, they rarely survive contact with the real world (anyone who believes that A actually equals A outside of the most far-removed of abstractions is invited to consider the matter as applied to any real-world phenomenon). Our opinions, attitudes, and beliefs (ie, the stuff of argument) come not merely from the facts we've met, but from all of our experience. The conflict represented in the clash of ideas reflects these differences in our history, usually expressed in our method of thought. Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? This argument we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am right. From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Feb 2 17:03:39 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:03:39 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <4200E11B.8010601@earthlink.net> References: <200502012213.j11MDuaA144448@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> <420087A2.9070300@mpls.cx> <4200E11B.8010601@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4201786B.5030406@mpls.cx> Jose Marquez wrote in part: > [...] I'm going to have to add that to my "making a point" list of sig > files [...] I forgot to mention this, before, you you may also enjoy this, which I overheard in irc://irc.perl.org/#perl the other day: rmah was heard to say: >> Trimming quoted text in email leaves more room for you in heaven. From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Feb 2 17:20:32 2005 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:20:32 -0600 Subject: Sci-Fi authors strike back! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42017C60.9030803@mpls.cx> Johne Cook wrote in part: >http://3dgpu.com/archives/2005/02/01/sci-fi-authors-strike-back/ > [SNIP] >I won't spoil it for you. Click these links to see how it turned out: >http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/1/prweb202277.htm >http://journals.aol.com/johnmscalzi/bytheway/entries/3500 > > > I mentioned this this (quoting the links you gave) on my live journal and have received several very positive responses. Here's one I think you may enjoy: > John R., here again, re: "Atlanta Nights". Gosh, Corwin, what can I say? > "Words stumble in my mind like clumsy children falling down a flight of > stairs... " ATLANTA NIGHTS is so incredibly, pervasively, unrelentingly > yet artistically awful, I kept on reading and laughing until my eyes > started tearing up from laughter! PublishAmerica doesn't know what a gem > of purposeful bad writing it's thrown away. This must be the "Bored of > the Rings" of dime-store romance novels. Too funny! ROFLMAO!!! Thanks, > again! > > From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 2 17:25:14 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:25:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > If your experience with arguments is that they end when someone says, > "Yes, you're right. I'm convinced," then we are not arguing with the > same sorts of people. If you would be so kind as to re-examine the paragraph you are responding to, you would notice that I did, in fact, allow that many arguments do not, in fact, end by resolving the ostensible underlying cause -- indeed that one of the popular low-energy states is resolving that the opposing interlocutor is someone with whom further discussion is unprofitable. Yet that is 'resolving something' -- knowledge is gained, understanding is achieved, the argument serves a purpose _and resolves an ambiguity_. As I stated earlier. > The closest I ever remember coming to that is > once when someone said, "I can't answer your argument, but you haven't > convinced me." This astonished me at the time, just because of the > astonishing level of intellectual honesty it implied (I've been the same > position frequently without admitting it). Indeed -- I've been in the position of acknowledging that my position was incorrect before, and modified or abandoned it entirely thereby. I would call the level of intellectual honesty 'uncommon,' but not shockingly rare, personally. > Indeed? We resolve contradictions in the real world through our > thoughts? Interesting idea. Here's a real-world contradiction: we live > in a society in which the means of production are worked socially, but > the results (ie, profits) are appropriated privately; and in which the > economy is global, but political government is still determined by > nation-states. This produces unending series of economic crises as well > as wars over markets and control of resources. Kindly "resolve" that > with your thoughts. Petitio principii; five yards, loss of down. The means of production are worked privately. "The economy is global, but political government is still determined by nation-states" is about as contradicting a statement as 'Water is wet, but stone is hard'. Different objects, different properties. The economic crises that do occur are generally traceable to interference with the operation of the market and poorly crafted and enforced property rights. > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. Life turns 'not-itself' into 'itself'. That's a process central to life, the transformation. Transformations aren't contradictions. What is there to resolve there? Fire turns wood to ash, but wood and ash don't contradict each other. > If that's too tough, I'll give you one that *exists* in thought, and > therefore ought to be resolvable that way: A body cannot be in two > places at once, nor can it be simultaneously "here" and "not-here." Can > you explain *movement* in any way that doesn't involve a exactly those > two phenomena? Movement doesn't involve bilocation, but rather a change of location -- it only seems paradoxical if you utterly ignore the calculus. At any given instant, there is only one location. That location varies smoothly over time. There is no contradiction whatever. > This is asking far too much of facts. Matters that can be settled > merely by the recitation of facts are, almost by definition, > trivialities, like axioms in mathematics. If you genuinely believe that statement, I cannot imagine that there is much point to extending this discussion. It is not the _recitation_ of facts but rather the _establishment_ of fact -- the condensation of fact >from the vapor of nuance, to steal a phrase -- that renders discussion profitable. If fact-based discussions are trivialities, then why are discussions of nuclear power generation, drilling in the Alaskan National Wildlife Reserve, or anthropogenic climate change so acrimonious? The facts for each are readily available and verifiable. When people discuss different sides of each of these matters, they are weighting the relative importance of facts, and attempting to prove or disprove the factual nature of various assertions. > And, like axioms, they rarely > survive contact with the real world (anyone who believes that A actually > equals A outside of the most far-removed of abstractions is invited to > consider the matter as applied to any real-world phenomenon). Facts rarely survive contact with the real world? Facts ARE the real world. > Our opinions, attitudes, and beliefs (ie, the stuff of argument) come > not merely from the facts we've met, but from all of our experience. > The conflict represented in the clash of ideas reflects these > differences in our history, usually expressed in our method of thought. All our experience is factual by definition. How could one possibly have an experience that was not factual, outside of induced false memory (and even then, the false memory is itself an existing fact)? > Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? You haven't presented one yet. > This argument > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > right. Not in the least; as I mentioned previously, we are in some ways arriving at the same room through different doors. Therefore, admitting you are right is tantamount to reiterating that I am. We are _settling_ a matter; that matter may well not be what we originally set out to establish, but something is definitely emerging. pe From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 17:28:00 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:28:00 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Gomi no Sensei" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 16:23, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > > > I must disagree. I would submit, on the contrary, that anything which > > > can be settled unambiguously is not worth arguing about. > > > > Not once it's settled unambiguously, to be sure. The whole idea is that > > it is NOT settled before the argument, and settled after. Even if the thing > > settled is not necessarily what the participants thought to settle > > going in. All too often, what gets settled is 'is this person someone I > > want to discuss this matter with any further?' But that's settling something, > > which (as I said) is the point of arguing. > > > > If your experience with arguments is that they end when someone says, > "Yes, you're right. I'm convinced," then we are not arguing with the > same sorts of people. The closest I ever remember coming to that is > once when someone said, "I can't answer your argument, but you haven't > convinced me." This astonished me at the time, just because of the > astonishing level of intellectual honesty it implied (I've been the same > position frequently without admitting it). > > > > Thoughts do > > > not emerge from a vacuum, but rather are a product of our interaction > > > with the world. The world around us filled with conflicts and > > > contradictions; the process of cognition necessarily reflects this. > > > Informed argument can bring these contradictions to the surface, which, > > > in general, is an excellent way to increase our understanding of the > > > world. > > > > I do not see how this statement is at all in conflict with my own > > previous assertions -- rather, it is in perfect consonance. It is by > > argument that we resolve the contradictions, that is, settle matters, > > through our increased understanding. > > > Indeed? We resolve contradictions in the real world through our > thoughts? Interesting idea. Here's a real-world contradiction: we live > in a society in which the means of production are worked socially, but > the results (ie, profits) are appropriated privately; and in which the > economy is global, but political government is still determined by > nation-states. This produces unending series of economic crises as well > as wars over markets and control of resources. Kindly "resolve" that > with your thoughts. One thing to be taken in to account, is there a resolution? Any argument made would be more along the lines of a discusion over ideas that may or may not function, thus no resolution may be possible at the moment, but it is in the hope of finding a solution that we argue. > > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. I can see how you arrived at that example, but in my opinion (there is that phrase again) the body being made up of parts of "itself" and "not-itself" is not inherantly a contradiction as I understand the word. Change "life IS a contradiction" to "society is made up of contradictions" and I would agree. Life cannot contradict itself and exist. > > If that's too tough, I'll give you one that *exists* in thought, and > therefore ought to be resolvable that way: A body cannot be in two > places at once, nor can it be simultaneously "here" and "not-here." Can > you explain *movement* in any way that doesn't involve a exactly those > two phenomena? > It is a matter of perception, sometimes you go away, but I am always here. . . > > > In particular, given that most thought takes place in language, > > > arguments over language usage are an excellent way to sharpen our minds. > > > > Precisely so -- discussion allows facts to emerge, and one either > > fortifies one's own, correct position, or discovers that it is not > > correct and changes positions. In either case, the discussion > > allows for greater understanding and eventually settles the topic. > > > > This is asking far too much of facts. Matters that can be settled > merely by the recitation of facts are, almost by definition, > trivialities, like axioms in mathematics. And, like axioms, they rarely > survive contact with the real world (anyone who believes that A actually > equals A outside of the most far-removed of abstractions is invited to > consider the matter as applied to any real-world phenomenon). > > Our opinions, attitudes, and beliefs (ie, the stuff of argument) come > not merely from the facts we've met, but from all of our experience. > The conflict represented in the clash of ideas reflects these > differences in our history, usually expressed in our method of thought. > > Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? This argument > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > right. > Unless, I am not trying to convince you, rather I am explaining to you how I arrived at my conclusion, and leave you with that knowledge to add to your ideas, and allow you do as you will with it. >>It does appear, however, that we are entering the same room through different doors. >> >>pe So long as we leave them unlocked. . . . Jeff G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 2 17:33:29 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:33:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > Movement doesn't involve bilocation, but rather a change of location -- it > only seems paradoxical if you utterly ignore the calculus. At any given > instant, there is only one location. That location varies smoothly over > time. There is no contradiction whatever. That or position is discrete at some low level. Also note that at that level position is certainly otherwise non-Newtonian... From godslayer at comcast.net Wed Feb 2 17:50:07 2005 From: godslayer at comcast.net (Vlad Talos, Professional Assassin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:50:07 -0500 Subject: Steven Brust link to Stephen King? Message-ID: <002701c50992$bbbedc50$0401a8c0@VectorEngraving> I was recently reading Book 6 of the Dark tower series by Mr. King and came across a reference to The first book in said series. Mr. King claims that the bird in the first book, whose name is "Zoltan" was named after an old colege friend who had some similar aspects to Mr. Brust. Anyone have any additional insight into whether these two GREAT author's did in fact go to college together? From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 2 18:35:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:35:51 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <19B150F2.28184CF4.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000201c50999$14a28a50$667ba8c0@Dad133> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus > writes: > >> Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different >> pronunciations. I wondered where these don't have distinctly different pronunciations. > As should "paraffin" and "kerosine". But I *really* wonder where these don't! (Around here it's spelled "kerosene". > --KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 13:38:33 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:38:33 -0800 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107380313.2804.45.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 17:25, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > If your experience with arguments is that they end when someone says, > > "Yes, you're right. I'm convinced," then we are not arguing with the > > same sorts of people. > > If you would be so kind as to re-examine the paragraph you are responding > to, you would notice that I did, in fact, allow that many arguments > do not, in fact, end by resolving the ostensible underlying cause -- indeed > that one of the popular low-energy states is resolving that the opposing > interlocutor is someone with whom further discussion is unprofitable. > I was imprecise. Excuse me. What you appeared to imply is that arguments *ought* to end with someone saying, "You're right, I'm convinced," and that, if they don't, the argument is not fruitful. In my opinion if the only result is saying, "It's a waste of time to argue with so-and-so" then to claim that was a fruitful argument is sophistry. > > Indeed? We resolve contradictions in the real world through our > > thoughts? Interesting idea. Here's a real-world contradiction: we live > > in a society in which the means of production are worked socially, but > > the results (ie, profits) are appropriated privately; and in which the > > economy is global, but political government is still determined by > > nation-states. This produces unending series of economic crises as well > > as wars over markets and control of resources. Kindly "resolve" that > > with your thoughts. > > Petitio principii; five yards, loss of down. The means of production are > worked privately. > Er...you are saying the one-man factory is the usual means of commodity production today? ::clears throat:: I beg to differ. > "The economy is global, but political government is still determined by > nation-states" is about as contradicting a statement as 'Water is wet, > but stone is hard'. Different objects, different properties. The economic > crises that do occur are generally traceable to interference with the > operation of the market and poorly crafted and enforced property rights. > So, then, politics is different from economics? And yet, it was a change in economics (the creation, for the first time, of a surplus in production) that created the need for the state, in order to mediate over the distribution of this surplus. Peoples who lived without a surplus did not create any form of state (and never HAD one, except from contact with other groups). And every change in economic form has required a change in political form. I think you're really going to have work to justify that one. > > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak > > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. > > Life turns 'not-itself' into 'itself'. That's a process central to life, the > transformation. Transformations aren't contradictions. What is there to > resolve there? Fire turns wood to ash, but wood and ash don't contradict > each other. Transformation IS contradiction; it is a thing being itself and not-itself at the same time. That is precisely the meaning of transformation. > > > If that's too tough, I'll give you one that *exists* in thought, and > > therefore ought to be resolvable that way: A body cannot be in two > > places at once, nor can it be simultaneously "here" and "not-here." Can > > you explain *movement* in any way that doesn't involve a exactly those > > two phenomena? > > Movement doesn't involve bilocation, but rather a change of location -- it > only seems paradoxical if you utterly ignore the calculus. At any given > instant, there is only one location. That location varies smoothly over > time. There is no contradiction whatever. > "Movement involves a change of location." Nicely put. Next, you can explain that mastication involves chewing, or that flying involves being off the ground. Exactly how does this change of location take place? Let's try it another way: without defining movement as I have asserted it ought to be defined, can you resolve the famous paradox of of the hare who keeps getting halfway to his goal? The error in this supposed paradox is precisely that it attempts to see movement as a change from static condition to another. > > This is asking far too much of facts. Matters that can be settled > > merely by the recitation of facts are, almost by definition, > > trivialities, like axioms in mathematics. > > If you genuinely believe that statement, I cannot imagine that there is > much point to extending this discussion. It is not the _recitation_ of > facts but rather the _establishment_ of fact -- the condensation of fact > from the vapor of nuance, to steal a phrase -- that renders discussion > profitable. If fact-based discussions are trivialities, then why are > discussions of nuclear power generation, drilling in the Alaskan National > Wildlife Reserve, or anthropogenic climate change so acrimonious? Exactly for the reasons I've stated. It is a "fact" that many significant actions in defensive of the environment are harmful to business, and cost jobs. I don't know of anyone who disputes this. Different people, however, while agreeing about the facts, differ on priorities and solutions. Many agree that new technology would solve much of this problem, yet differ on how the development of his technology ought to be paid for. > The > facts for each are readily available and verifiable. When people discuss > different sides of each of these matters, they are weighting the relative > importance of facts, and attempting to prove or disprove the factual nature > of various assertions. > In other words, the facts are not at issue; it is matters surrounding those facts, the interpretations of the facts, and attitudes and priorities that differ? "I believe I said that, doctor." > > And, like axioms, they rarely > > survive contact with the real world (anyone who believes that A actually > > equals A outside of the most far-removed of abstractions is invited to > > consider the matter as applied to any real-world phenomenon). > > Facts rarely survive contact with the real world? Facts ARE the real world. > I don't believe that is precisely what I meant, but, hell let's play with it anyway. Facts are NOT the real world, facts are first-order abstractions from it. And what is delightful about them are how quickly and unexpectedly they turn into their opposites. > > Our opinions, attitudes, and beliefs (ie, the stuff of argument) come > > not merely from the facts we've met, but from all of our experience. > > The conflict represented in the clash of ideas reflects these > > differences in our history, usually expressed in our method of thought. > > All our experience is factual by definition. How could one possibly > have an experience that was not factual, outside of induced false memory > (and even then, the false memory is itself an existing fact)? > It is a "fact" that, at some point in my life, a certain experience occurred, for example, the study of philosophy which convinced me that one's method for interpreting facts was as important as the facts one interpreted. We both observe that our society goes through regular crises, yet you believe these are an aberration resulting from government interference in something called "The Market" whereas I believe they are part of the very nature of capitalism (forgive me if I'm misinterpreted your position there). Same fact, different interpretations. Mine is based on my interpretation of history, my method of understanding "facts" and how I analyze data. Yours is based on, presumably, your own interpretation of &c. For an argument to have value, we get *past* the mere "fact" that these crises exist, and try to understand why. Of course, you are welcome to assert, "My understanding of the reason for the crises is a FACT." To do so, in my opinion, is to dreadfully overwork "fact" and make it something it isn't. To declare as "fact" everything and anything that is true ("There is life on planet Eart," "E=MC**2," "I am having an argument with you via email," "man evolved from more primitive forms of life," "a human embryo is not a living human being," "Capitalism has outlived it's usefulness," "you disagree with the previous statement") is to so broaden the definition of "fact" that it becomes, in essence, useless. I believe I can say, without fear of contradiction, that I can nothing without fear of contradiction. :-) > > This argument > > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part > > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > > right. > > Not in the least; as I mentioned previously, we are in some ways arriving > at the same room through different doors. Therefore, admitting you are right > is tantamount to reiterating that I am. We are _settling_ a matter; that > matter may well not be what we originally set out to establish, but something > is definitely emerging. I continue to be curious about just what we are settling. To be as clear as possible: I assert that this argument is valuable, not because one or the other of us will become convinced of something by the other, but because our opinions and beliefs will become more sharply defined, and we will thus each achieve a deeper understanding of the subject. And that's a fact. ;-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 13:43:52 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:43:52 -0800 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 17:28, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak > > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. > > I can see how you arrived at that example, but in my opinion (there is > that phrase again) the body being made up of parts of "itself" and > "not-itself" is not inherantly a contradiction as I understand the word. > Change "life IS a contradiction" to "society is made up of contradictions" > and I would agree. Life cannot contradict itself and exist. > I beg to differ. Life MUST contradict itself in order to exist. A living body is constantly dying and being reborn, adding cells to itself and sloughing off other cells. Death itself is a process (hence all the legal problems about exactly at what point in an orgamism "death" occurs. In the time that it has taken me to write this, some numbers of cells in my body have died; others have been created. Should this process stop, I would certainly be dead. > > Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? This argument > > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part > > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > > right. > > > Unless, I am not trying to convince you, rather I am explaining to you how I > arrived at my conclusion, and leave you with that knowledge to add to your > ideas, and allow you do as you will with it. > In which case it is not an argument, it is the dispensing of information. Often of value, but not what we are discussing. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 13:45:33 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:45:33 -0800 Subject: Steven Brust link to Stephen King? In-Reply-To: <002701c50992$bbbedc50$0401a8c0@VectorEngraving> References: <002701c50992$bbbedc50$0401a8c0@VectorEngraving> Message-ID: <1107380733.2804.53.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> It wasn't me. On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 17:50, Vlad Talos, Professional Assassin wrote: > I was recently reading Book 6 of the Dark tower series by Mr. King and came across a reference to The first book in said series. > > Mr. King claims that the bird in the first book, whose name is "Zoltan" was named after an old colege friend who had some similar aspects to Mr. Brust. > > Anyone have any additional insight into whether these two GREAT author's did in fact go to college together? From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 2 18:52:50 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:52:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: <1107380313.2804.45.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380313.2804.45.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > I continue to be curious about just what we are settling. Indeed; finding that out is exactly the fun. > To be as clear as possible: I assert that this argument is valuable, not > because one or the other of us will become convinced of something by the > other, but because our opinions and beliefs will become more sharply > defined, and we will thus each achieve a deeper understanding of the > subject. Hm. Precisely so. I'm sorry, did I somehow give an impression that I disagreed with that? That is, we are each becoming convinced of _something_, not necessarily by the _other_ -- the argument is resulting in just that sharpening to which I've alluded earlier. pe many things skipped may be picked up later From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 19:00:36 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:00:36 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Jeff Gibbons" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 17:28, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak > > > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > > > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > > > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > > > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > > > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. > > > > I can see how you arrived at that example, but in my opinion (there is > > that phrase again) the body being made up of parts of "itself" and > > "not-itself" is not inherantly a contradiction as I understand the word. > > Change "life IS a contradiction" to "society is made up of contradictions" > > and I would agree. Life cannot contradict itself and exist. > > > > I beg to differ. Life MUST contradict itself in order to exist. A > living body is constantly dying and being reborn, adding cells to itself > and sloughing off other cells. Death itself is a process (hence all the > legal problems about exactly at what point in an orgamism "death" > occurs. In the time that it has taken me to write this, some numbers of > cells in my body have died; others have been created. Should this > process stop, I would certainly be dead. > > Not neccesarily, but you would be larger. I think that I am using a different definition than you. . . Main Entry: con?tra?dic?tion Pronunciation: "k?n-tr&-'dik-sh&n Function: noun 1 : act or an instance of contradicting 2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other 3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another I am using the second definition, you are using the third. > > > Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? This argument > > > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part > > > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > > > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > > > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > > > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > > > right. > > > > > Unless, I am not trying to convince you, rather I am explaining to you how I > > arrived at my conclusion, and leave you with that knowledge to add to your > > ideas, and allow you do as you will with it. > > > > In which case it is not an argument, it is the dispensing of > information. Often of value, but not what we are discussing. > But isn't an argument the assimilation of information from different sources? Weither one accepts it or not is left to the individual, who inevitably reaches his or her own conclusions, but may be swayed by the validity of the information provided. Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 19:21:02 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:21:02 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380313.2804.45.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: > > > To be as clear as possible: I assert that this argument is valuable, not > > because one or the other of us will become convinced of something by the > > other, but because our opinions and beliefs will become more sharply > > defined, and we will thus each achieve a deeper understanding of the > > subject. > > Hm. Precisely so. I'm sorry, did I somehow give an impression that I > disagreed with that? That is, we are each becoming convinced of _something_, > not necessarily by the _other_ -- the argument is resulting in just > that sharpening to which I've alluded earlier. > > pe A Tiassa, a Dragon, and a Yendi walk into a bar. At that moment, there happens to be only one barkeep to serve them. The Dragon, seeing the Tiassa, makes a comment knowing the Tiassa will be unable to resist remarking upon. The Tiassa responds, allowing the Dragon to riposte. The Yendi joins in simply for the fun of confounding the others, as well as to get his drink, (which was his plan all along). Opinions are exchanged, and voices are raised, but eventually everyone speaks his mind and gets a drink. The Yendi finishes his drink, compliments his host, and walks to the door, as do the Tiassa and the Dragon. They reach the door, where upon they each insist the other go first. . . Jeff From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Feb 2 14:42:45 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:42:45 -0800 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107384165.2804.55.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Nope. Same definition. Definition one in particular. On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 19:00, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brust" > To: "Jeff Gibbons" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > > > > On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 17:28, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > > > > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we > speak > > > > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > > > > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > > > > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > > > > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > > > > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. > > > > > > I can see how you arrived at that example, but in my opinion (there is > > > that phrase again) the body being made up of parts of "itself" and > > > "not-itself" is not inherantly a contradiction as I understand the word. > > > Change "life IS a contradiction" to "society is made up of > contradictions" > > > and I would agree. Life cannot contradict itself and exist. > > > > > > > I beg to differ. Life MUST contradict itself in order to exist. A > > living body is constantly dying and being reborn, adding cells to itself > > and sloughing off other cells. Death itself is a process (hence all the > > legal problems about exactly at what point in an orgamism "death" > > occurs. In the time that it has taken me to write this, some numbers of > > cells in my body have died; others have been created. Should this > > process stop, I would certainly be dead. > > > > > Not neccesarily, but you would be larger. I think that I am using a > different definition than you. . . > > Main Entry: con?tra?dic?tion > Pronunciation: "k?n-tr&-'dik-sh&n > Function: noun > 1 : act or an instance of contradicting > 2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the > truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts > contradict each other > 3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, > actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another > > I am using the second definition, you are using the third. > > > > > Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? This argument > > > > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as > part > > > > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > > > > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > > > > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > > > > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > > > > right. > > > > > > > Unless, I am not trying to convince you, rather I am explaining to you > how I > > > arrived at my conclusion, and leave you with that knowledge to add to > your > > > ideas, and allow you do as you will with it. > > > > > > > In which case it is not an argument, it is the dispensing of > > information. Often of value, but not what we are discussing. > > > > But isn't an argument the assimilation of information from different > sources? Weither one accepts it or not is left to the individual, who > inevitably reaches his or her own conclusions, but may be swayed by the > validity of the information provided. > > > Jeff > From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 2 20:04:55 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:04:55 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <000201c50999$14a28a50$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000201c50999$14a28a50$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <4201A2E7.7020205@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: >Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > >>In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus >> writes: >> >> >> >>>Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different >>>pronunciations. >>> >>> > >I wondered where these don't have distinctly different pronunciations. > > I know a Tennessean who cannot pronounce these words without their sounding exactly the same. As both a non-native speaker of English and a musician, I can usually grab on to slight pronunciation nuances to distinguish words, but not in this case; it sounds as if she's using the same word for both. It's very amusing. >>As should "paraffin" and "kerosine". >> >> > >But I *really* wonder where these don't! (Around here it's spelled >"kerosene". > > Yeah, didn't get that either... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Feb 2 21:22:12 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:22:12 EST Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) Message-ID: <1a4.30bac085.2f330f04@aol.com> Jeff Gibbons wrote on Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:21:02 -0700 >A Tiassa, a Dragon, and a Yendi walk into a bar. At that moment, there >happens to be only one barkeep to serve them. The Dragon, seeing the Tiassa, >makes a comment knowing the Tiassa will be unable to resist remarking upon. >The Tiassa responds, allowing the Dragon to riposte. The Yendi joins in >simply for the fun of confounding the others, as well as to get his drink, >(which was his plan all along). Opinions are exchanged, and voices are >raised, but eventually everyone speaks his mind and gets a drink. The Yendi >finishes his drink, compliments his host, and walks to the door, as do the >Tiassa and the Dragon. > They reach the door, where upon they each insist the >other go first. . . Hi, What are they Issolas? How about? They reach the door at the same time, where upon the Yendi suggests the Tiassa go first, knowing the Dragon will argue that he, as a Dragon, should go first and while they are fighting the Yendi leaves the bar. The barkeep goes to get his mop and says "Happens every time." Unless you mean Steven Burst is the Tiassa, you are the Yendi and Gomi no Sensei is the Dragon. Bye. Linda G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 21:48:19 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:48:19 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <1a4.30bac085.2f330f04@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > > Unless you mean Steven Burst is the Tiassa, you are the Yendi and > Gomi no Sensei is the Dragon. > > Bye. > > Linda G. > I had seen myself as the Dragon, actually, but you placed Steve correctly. And played it out exactly as I saw it. ;) Jeff G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 22:02:50 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:02:50 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107384165.2804.55.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Jeff Gibbons" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > Nope. Same definition. Definition one in particular. > Ah. You know, the difficulty of arguing via email is that not only does time pass between volleys, but that others interject new points, and the tangents change. We started on the nature of the English language, then to the nature of an argument, to the definition of a contradiction. If we had reversed the last two, we would have followed the same progression as a rather famous Monty Python skit. Jeff From gomi at pollywog.com Wed Feb 2 22:52:26 2005 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:52:26 -0800 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: <1a4.30bac085.2f330f04@aol.com> References: <1a4.30bac085.2f330f04@aol.com> Message-ID: <4201CA2A.6090106@pollywog.com> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >Unless you mean Steven Burst is the Tiassa, you are the Yendi and >Gomi no Sensei is the Dragon. > > Hm. If I had to pick a House, rather than be born into one, it'd be, in descending preference order, Issola/Lyorn/Tiassa/Hawk. Can't say as I'd ever really considered myself in the more violent Houses like Dzur or Dragon. From gomi at pollywog.com Wed Feb 2 23:01:24 2005 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:01:24 -0800 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107384165.2804.55.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <4201CC44.4040207@pollywog.com> Jeff Gibbons wrote: >Ah. > You know, the difficulty of arguing via email is that not only does time >pass between volleys, but that others interject new points, and the tangents >change. We started on the nature of the English language, then to the nature >of an argument, to the definition of a contradiction. If we had reversed the >last two, we would have followed the same progression as a rather famous >Monty Python skit. > >Jeff > > Indeed -- I was reacting to 'contradiction' in the logical sense, a paradox or impossibility, as that had seemed to me to be the sense in which skzb was using it. By that definition, life _cannot_ contradict itself, as contradictions are logical impossibilities and thus do not exist in reality. Where there is apparent contradiction (in this sense), there must be a misunderstanding or misperception of the facts. Thus, I found his use of 'contradiction' in that specific example to be thoroughly baffling. There is, to my understanding, no contradiction in the ongoing transformations of living creatures. Unliving mass is absorbed, integrated by the organism, and formerly living mass is detached from the organism and ejected. Just because the life/unlife pair operates as a continuum rather than as a binary operation is no reason to call it a contradiction -- at least as I understand the word. So I guess we're full circle to use of language again. pe From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 04:42:33 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:42:33 -0500 Subject: evolution in languege: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <4F444E90.48A8B071.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/2/2005 7:17:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Timothy Scott writes: >> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:08:09 -0500, wrote: >> >>> And to have this a little on topic, when Vlad speaks to Svan, he >>> points out that he could tell Vlad was from somewhere south, or when >>> Vlad and Morrolan talk to the Cat Centaurs, they speak Dragaeran, but >>> with out and accent (I am pretty sure that's what it says). Any >>> other refrences to accents in Dragaera? >> >> What is interesting is that he can pass as a member of a different >> species, albeit one with a southern accent. >> >> -- >> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ >> >> > > >Wasn't there a dialect/accent that was peculiar to the Kanefthali >Mountains...? > > I think so. Isn't that how Seth... I mean ***** can pronounce Hwdfrjanci (spelling help)? -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 04:53:11 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:53:11 -0500 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) Message-ID: <18777063.0C55A948.00184D6D@aol.com> Sometimes, arguments are just fun to have no matter if people are willing to admit it or not. I like listening to arguments and I enjoy having them (or throwing myself into one just to have a say). Sometimes arguments can solve things, directly or inderectly; like argueing over who didn't refill the toilet paper. Eventually, a plan or something will be worked out so that there will always be toilet paper (silly analogy). Or, if the Maid of Honor doesn't want to wear red and she and the bride argue over it, the solution: Get a new Maid of Honor. I don't know if I am makeing any sense here cause it's still before 8am, but I don't care. Argue that if you want to. -C From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 3 05:00:02 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:00:02 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <4F444E90.48A8B071.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c509f0$470c8110$667ba8c0@Dad133> My wife, from St. Louis, refers to Warshington and Warsh. It's interesting that the West, where they are more a part of the native culture, "rodeo" is pronounced as if it were an English word, but the East is more likely to pronounce it as a Spanish word. From scs at di.org Thu Feb 3 05:10:33 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:10:33 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <1107271892.2394.51.camel@localhost> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050203131033.GB18866@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 03:36:29PM -0800, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > More, I contend such arguments are worth having. Because through them > > something can be *settled* and *solved*? No. Because through them, > > knowledge and understanding can be developed and increased. > If an argument isn't being had to settle and solve an issue, there's precious > little point in having one. Knowledge and understanding are hardly to be > had in the presence of continued ambiguity. Regretfully, I must disagree. Even if agreement is not reached, mutual understanding is often useful. If nothing else, it may be possible to agree to disagree and live without stepping on each others' toes. Consider this note as proff by example. :-) -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From scs at di.org Thu Feb 3 05:18:11 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:18:11 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: References: <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050203131811.GC18866@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 04:31:28PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > And if you happen to disagree that "most thought takes place in > > language" then we have an excellent subject to argue about, don't we? > I disagree about "most thought", but instead of arguing out of > near-ignorance I'd rather wait for the pet-scan guys to tell me. > You and him can fight, of course. I'm with Mr. Hart on this one. Much of my own thought proceeds without words. Putting it into language sometimes clarifies it, sometimes reveals it to be incorrect, and sometimes simply fails to adequately describe it. In seeking examples of the last, consider Zen. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 06:00:34 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:00:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050203140035.47923.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: >"The economy is global, but political government is >still determined by nation-states" is about as >contradicting a statement as 'Water is wet, but >stone is hard'. Different objects, different >properties. The economic crises that do occur are >generally traceable to interference with the >operation of the market and poorly crafted and >enforced property rights. Government is about economics. If it weren't, then why would the one common feature of modern governments be taxation (aka resource management or the choice between winners and losers)? Put simply, the government's main duty, taxation, is interference in the market. You should read Barnett's (Sp) new book _The Pentagon at War_. Let's look at a few of the more recent "economic crisis." Very Possible: The crash of the dollar due to excessive government deficits, too little savings by the American people, and the rise of a suitable competitor in the Euro. The best way to prevent this crisis - cut the budget deficit and interfere with the market by encouraging the American people to save more money. 1. Minor recession of 2000 - 2004: A small business-cycle recession made worse by the destruction of America's best known office building by international terrorists. You could call it an interference in the market by terrorists, but a better description would be a recession caused by the government's failure to provide security to its market. 2. The Asian Flu of the mid 1990s to present: caused by numerous bad choices by Japanese banks as to whom they loan money (due to cultural factors and the lack of oversight by the Japanese government). 3. 1970s Inflation crisis: caused in large part by the strain placed on America's economy by the Vietnam war and the breakdown of the Breton Woods system. There are other examples but I think these make my point. An economy is an engine but government policies, at least in the modern world, are the lubricant. Globalization is nothing more then the extension of America's economy to the world. It can be compared to a worldwide system of government because it is one, and the dollar is king. If America falls so does globalization. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 3 06:16:52 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:16:52 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <20050201164939.62246.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <1107303631.2549.2.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107309682.2781.10.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107363121.2781.30.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107371676.2781.71.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107374348.2781.104.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <1107384165.2804.55.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> <4201CC44.4040207@pollywog.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Echeverri" To: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:01 AM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > >Ah. > > You know, the difficulty of arguing via email is that not only does time > >pass between volleys, but that others interject new points, and the tangents > >change. We started on the nature of the English language, then to the nature > >of an argument, to the definition of a contradiction. If we had reversed the > >last two, we would have followed the same progression as a rather famous > >Monty Python skit. > > > >Jeff > > > > > Indeed -- I was reacting to 'contradiction' in the logical sense, a > paradox or impossibility, as that had seemed to me to be the sense in > which skzb was using it. By that definition, life _cannot_ contradict > itself, as contradictions are logical impossibilities and thus do not > exist in reality. Where there is apparent contradiction (in this sense), > there must be a misunderstanding or misperception of the facts. Thus, I > found his use of 'contradiction' in that specific example to be > thoroughly baffling. There is, to my understanding, no contradiction in > the ongoing transformations of living creatures. Unliving mass is > absorbed, integrated by the organism, and formerly living mass is > detached from the organism and ejected. Just because the life/unlife > pair operates as a continuum rather than as a binary operation is no > reason to call it a contradiction -- at least as I understand the word. > So I guess we're full circle to use of language again. > > pe > If you think about it, the fact that we both misunderstood his use of a simple word helps prove the orignal point of the argument in the first place: that the presence of prescriptivists helps to maintain a standard in language, thus making communication simpler. Oops. Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 3 06:22:03 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:22:03 -0700 Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) References: <1a4.30bac085.2f330f04@aol.com> <4201CA2A.6090106@pollywog.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Echeverri" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > >Unless you mean Steven Burst is the Tiassa, you are the Yendi and > >Gomi no Sensei is the Dragon. > > > > > Hm. If I had to pick a House, rather than be born into one, it'd be, in > descending preference order, Issola/Lyorn/Tiassa/Hawk. Can't say as I'd > ever really considered myself in the more violent Houses like Dzur or > Dragon. > I had originally pictured you as a Yendi in that argument, but upon reflection, Hawk suits you better, as you pick out the specific points and logically dispatched them one by one. As I stated before, the Dragon is me, I enjoy the fight for it's own sake, but do not lose myself to it as a Dzur would. Jeff From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 3 07:04:23 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:04:23 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <000401c509f0$470c8110$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <4F444E90.48A8B071.00184D6D@aol.com> <000401c509f0$470c8110$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050203150422.GB13319@bofh.com> On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 06:00:02AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > My wife, from St. Louis, refers to Warshington and Warsh. > > It's interesting that the West, where they are more a part of the native > culture, "rodeo" is pronounced as if it were an English word, but the East > is more likely to pronounce it as a Spanish word. The obvious counter examples to that include jalapeno and saguaro. Although my favorite requires the telling of a true story that I got second hand >from the person who experienced it first hand. This person worked for the NIH (National Institute of Health) in Washington, D.C. Now, in DC a lot of things tend to be political, and political correctness is rampant. There was one particular lady who was particularly militant about that, and one day she decided to browse her "Network Neighborhood" for reasons lost to obscurity. There she notices a computer that is named Jesus Saves. Now, working at a government agency in DC this offends her, so she goes to my friend to track down who owns this. He laughs and tells her he has other work to do, he might get to it eventually. This is not good enough for her, so she goes to his boss and causes a ruckus. Naturally, his boss comes and asks him to track it down. So he does (this requires him to determine the MAC address, track which switch it's connected to so that they can trace the wiring to find the office). They do this and go to the office to talk to the person. The office of Jesus Saves (Hay-zoos Sav-ez). -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 3 08:56:31 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:56:31 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <4201A2E7.7020205@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > >Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >>As should "paraffin" and "kerosine". > >> > >> > > > >But I *really* wonder where these don't! (Around here it's spelled > >"kerosene". > > > > > Yeah, didn't get that either... C'est la m?me chose ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 09:38:45 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:38:45 -0500 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) Message-ID: <424A9A0E.46520917.00184D6D@aol.com> On contradictions: I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, love them in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if he was in need (hhmmm who does that sound like?). -C From dave at waveridersystems.com Thu Feb 3 10:06:10 2005 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:06:10 -0800 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) References: <424A9A0E.46520917.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201c50a1b$0d4be6c0$f6dbf7a5@queeg.net> You're like me - humans generally suck, but you're willing to give everyone an equal opportunity to demonstrate their individual flavor of suckitude before chucking them into the general suck bucket. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) > On contradictions: > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, love them in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if he was in need (hhmmm who does that sound like?). > > -C > From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Thu Feb 3 10:05:02 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:05:02 -0500 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) Message-ID: Or: People are stupid; individuals can prove themselves intelligent. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Godwin [mailto:dave at waveridersystems.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:06 PM > To: MedCat7 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) > > > You're like me - humans generally suck, but you're willing to give > everyone > an equal opportunity to demonstrate their individual flavor of suckitude > before chucking them into the general suck bucket. > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:38 AM > Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) > > > > On contradictions: > > > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, love them in > particular, but will help a perfect stranger if he was in need (hhmmm who > does that sound like?). > > > > -C > > From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 3 10:11:19 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:11:19 -0500 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) In-Reply-To: <424A9A0E.46520917.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com writ: > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, > love them in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if > he was in need (hhmmm who does that sound like?). Athos/Aerich ? From dave at waveridersystems.com Thu Feb 3 10:20:09 2005 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:20:09 -0800 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) References: Message-ID: <005001c50a1d$04acf3e0$f6dbf7a5@queeg.net> I don't mind normal stupid. It's like George Carlin said: "Remember folks, the average human IQ is only 100 points, and half of them are even dumber than that". It's stupid-with-intent that bothers me. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grady Brandt" To: "'Dave Godwin'" ; ; Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:05 AM Subject: RE: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) > Or: People are stupid; individuals can prove themselves intelligent. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Godwin [mailto:dave at waveridersystems.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:06 PM > > To: MedCat7 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) > > > > > > You're like me - humans generally suck, but you're willing to give > > everyone > > an equal opportunity to demonstrate their individual flavor of suckitude > > before chucking them into the general suck bucket. > > > > Dave > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:38 AM > > Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) > > > > > > > On contradictions: > > > > > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, love them in > > particular, but will help a perfect stranger if he was in need (hhmmm who > > does that sound like?). > > > > > > -C > > > > From s1burns at ucsd.edu Thu Feb 3 10:15:40 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:15:40 -0800 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) In-Reply-To: <200502031812.j13ICWTR058027@mailbox1.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <200502031815.j13IFgTi015007@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at the-bat.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:11 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have > an argument) > > MedCat7 at aol.com writ: > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, > love them > > in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if he was in need > > (hhmmm who does that sound like?). > > Athos/Aerich ? > > I thought it was Vlad... From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Feb 3 10:18:04 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:18:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) Message-ID: <200502031818.j13II4am016528@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Crystal wrote: > On contradictions: > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, love them in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if he was in need (hhmmm who does that sound like?). Yep, sounds like me all right. I'm an anti-social social person (or a social anti-social person, take your pick). It's also in line with one of my standard sayings: "I've never been hypocritical enough to say I'm never hypocritical." Contradictions are fun! (Well, not always, I suppose.:) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Feb 3 10:19:16 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:19:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stupid is as stupid does (was Re: contradictions) In-Reply-To: <005001c50a1d$04acf3e0$f6dbf7a5@queeg.net> References: <005001c50a1d$04acf3e0$f6dbf7a5@queeg.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Dave Godwin wrote: > > I don't mind normal stupid. It's like George Carlin said: "Remember folks, > the average human IQ is only 100 points, and half of them are even dumber > than that". > > It's stupid-with-intent that bothers me. Which reminds me of an anecdote attributed to von Clausewitz. He divided his soldiers up according to a two-by-two matrix: Smart/Stupid and Lazy/Diligent. The Smart and Diligent he made into field commanders, where their quick wits and high energy made them adaptable to changing battlefield conditions. The Smart and Lazy became General Staff, sitting back at HQ and thinking around corners ("Sieges are boooring! Isn't there some other way to get this done?") The Stupid and Lazy became regular grunts, reliably following orders. The Stupid and Diligent were to be removed from the army at all costs. pe From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 10:37:49 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:37:49 -0600 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) In-Reply-To: <200502031818.j13II4am016528@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200502031818.j13II4am016528@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:18:04 -0800 (PST), Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Yep, sounds like me all right. I'm an anti-social social > person (or a social anti-social person, take your pick). I'm a gregarious loner. ; ) -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 3 10:43:45 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 11:43:45 -0700 Subject: duh! Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:56:31 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: >> >But I *really* wonder where these don't! (Around here it's spelled >> >"kerosene". >> > >> > >> Yeah, didn't get that either... > C'est la m?me chose ... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene I knew it had multiple spellings - it's the rhyming that I didn't get. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 3 10:48:21 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:48:21 -0500 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) In-Reply-To: <200502031815.j13IFgTi015007@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: Shawn Burns writes in reply to me: > > MedCat7 at aol.com writ: > > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, > > > love them in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if > > > he was in need (hhmmm who does that sound like?). > > > > Athos/Aerich ? > > I thought it was Vlad... > Now, I wouldn't expect Vlad to help perfect strangers in need. Got any examples where he has done so where no self interest was involved? Casey From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Thu Feb 3 10:55:24 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:55:24 -0500 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Godwin [mailto:dave at waveridersystems.com] > > I don't mind normal stupid. It's like George Carlin said: "Remember > folks, > the average human IQ is only 100 points, and half of them are even dumber > than that". > > It's stupid-with-intent that bothers me. > > Dave > I didn't say I minded, well, not much anyway. It's more of a design philosophy. From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 3 11:38:55 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 12:38:55 -0700 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) Message-ID: On 02/03/2005 11:55:24 AM, gbrandt at tampabayfederal.com wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Godwin [mailto:dave at waveridersystems.com] > > > > I don't mind normal stupid. It's like George Carlin said: > "Remember > > folks, > > the average human IQ is only 100 points, and half of them are even > dumber > > than that". George Carlin's statement is misleading. The average IQ is a range. It is closer to being correct to say 1/2 of the population is average, leaving 1/4 above and 1/4 below average. (I don't know what the actual numbers are - nor even whether standard deviation means much here). Average people get treated one way in school, and the extremes get treated other ways. Although speaking of IQ. Isaac Asimov was periodically interested in MENSA. What bothered him about it was that there were so many people with political views completely different from his. If smart people can't even agree on who to vote for - maybe IQ doesn't mean that much. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Thu Feb 3 11:44:59 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:44:59 -0500 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > Although speaking of IQ. Isaac Asimov was periodically interested in > MENSA. What bothered him about it was that there were so many people with > political views completely different from his. If smart people can't > even agree on who to vote for - maybe IQ doesn't mean that much. IQ != Opinion From scs at di.org Thu Feb 3 11:52:50 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:52:50 -0500 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050203195250.GC22268@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 12:38:55PM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > George Carlin's statement is misleading. The average IQ is a range. > It is closer to being correct to say 1/2 of the population is average, > leaving 1/4 above and 1/4 below average. (I don't know what the actual > numbers are - nor even whether standard deviation means much here). > Average people get treated one way in school, and the extremes get treated > other ways. It's been a while so I don't have the exact number at my fingertips, but here's the scoop. Obligatory disclaimer: IQ test is a mediocre measure of intelligence at best. I neither endorse nor disclaim it. The following merely discusses IQ as a descriptive statistic. IQ tests are normalized (ie, multipliers and other adjusters applied) so the average is 100 and the standard deviation is 10. Plot the IQs of a population as a graph, and you get a standard bell curve. In a standard bell curve, approx 68% (I think) of the values are within 1 standard deviation of the mean. Applied to a population, that'd mean 68% are from 90 to 110 IQ. Of the remaining 32%, half are below 90, half above 110. There's nothing saying that being within one standard deviation of the mean is 'normal' with respect to intelligence. But Carlin is almost correct when he says that half the population is below average (100). What he's missing is the small but real number of folks who are actually exactly on the average. At least when I was in school, you pretty much had to be at least two standard deviations from the norm to be extreme. Beyond three deviations the IQ test ceases to have much qualitative meaning except 'extreme.' Steve "why yes, I do know my IQ" Simmons -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 3 12:09:24 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:09:24 -0500 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pe wrote: > If an argument isn't being had to settle and solve an issue, > there's precious little point in having one. Knowledge and > understanding are hardly to be had in the presence of > continued ambiguity. In my own experience, holding in tension two strongly held beliefs that appear on the surface to be contradictory leads to a much deeper understanding of both sides of the issue. This may be less apparent in more deterministic realms of exploration, but there are so many issues where we (humanity) have not found the answers to these hard questions where living with ambiguity and wrestling with it is much preferable to blindly adopting one stance or the other. I suppose my long term intent may still be to 'settle and solve' such issues, but I think more often than not, were the solution so readily apparent, there would be not so very much to argue about. Casey From scs at di.org Thu Feb 3 12:08:25 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:08:25 -0500 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) In-Reply-To: <20050203195250.GC22268@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050203195250.GC22268@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050203200825.GA22378@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 02:52:50PM -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > IQ tests are normalized (ie, multipliers and other adjusters applied) > so the average is 100 and the standard deviation is 10. Plot the IQs > of a population as a graph, and you get a standard bell curve. In a > standard bell curve, approx 68% (I think) of the values are within 1 > standard deviation of the mean . . . Just found the reference book - yes, in a population which can be described with a bell curve, 68.2% of the members fall within one standard deviation of the mean. About 92% fall within two standard deviations. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Thu Feb 3 12:25:49 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:25:49 -0700 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) Message-ID: <20050203202549.17254.qmail@server261.com> > From: "Steve Simmons" > At least when I was in school, you pretty much had to be at least two > standard deviations from the norm to be extreme. Beyond three deviations > the IQ test ceases to have much qualitative meaning except 'extreme.' Another small problem with using IQ tests at extreme ranges is that a lot of tests have 'celings'. (I don't know if they have 'floors'; I'd suspect so, but I havn't looked into it.) That is, there is a certain score which is the highest possible score for a person to get on the test; anyone with an IQ above that score can't prove it with the test. Thus, IQ *scores* can cease to be meaningful above a certain point simply because they weren't measured accurately. One might look at this as a good thing - an acknowledgement that the 'extreme' values aren't very meaningful - except it isn't a case of an artifically imposed celing; it's a flaw in the test design. I was tested as a child. I don't know my IQ, only that it is somewhere above 130: I hit the test celing. Of course, this doesn't even address the issue of validity, but it's an interesting point. From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 13:14:57 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:14:57 -0600 Subject: Novel editing methods / tips Message-ID: I'm at the stage where I'm theoretically editing _The Sky Pirate_ but am stumbling around a little. I came across an article from Holly Lisle, about how she does it, http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/wc2-4.html, but I'm wondering what other methods y'all use. Thanks in advance, -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 18:53:53 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 21:53:53 -0500 Subject: stupidity in contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an a rgument) Message-ID: <613BF8FC.35C9486D.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:44:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Grady Brandt writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] >> > > > >> Although speaking of IQ. ? Isaac Asimov was periodically interested in >> MENSA. ?What bothered him about it was that there were so many people with >> political views completely different from his. ? If smart people can't >> even agree on who to vote for - maybe IQ doesn't mean that much. > >IQ != Opinion > High IQ also desn't mean a lot of common sense! -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 13:56:03 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:56:03 -0500 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) Message-ID: <7B627AA9.022BED16.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/3/2005 1:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Johne Cook writes: >On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:18:04 -0800 (PST), Chris Olson - SunPS > wrote: >> Yep, sounds like me all right. ?I'm an anti-social social >> person (or a social anti-social person, take your pick). > >I'm a gregarious loner. ?; ) >-- I am the same way. Perfectly fine on my own, but am willing to have company...and plenty of it! -C >johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | > From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 13:57:41 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:57:41 -0500 Subject: contradictions (was Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument) Message-ID: <26BA9586.088DEB2F.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/3/2005 1:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Casey Rousseau" writes: >Shawn Burns writes in reply to me: >> > MedCat7 at aol.com writ: >> > > I contradict myself all the time. I hate people in general, >> > > love them in particular, but will help a perfect stranger if >> > > he was in need (hhmmm who does that sound like?). >> > >> > Athos/Aerich ? >> >> I thought it was Vlad... >> >Now, I wouldn't expect Vlad to help perfect strangers in need. ?Got any >examples where he has done so where no self interest was involved? > >Casey > > Acctually, i was thinking of Vlad, but not so much on the helping others part. Sorry, I should have been more specific. -C From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Feb 3 16:19:35 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:19:35 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <000201c50999$14a28a50$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <19B150F2.28184CF4.00048EA6@aol.com> <000201c50999$14a28a50$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:35:51 -0700, you wrote: >Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus >> writes: >> >>> Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different >>> pronunciations. > >I wondered where these don't have distinctly different pronunciations. > As Jose said, in the south they tend to blur a lot of these pronunciations. They both are pronounced "pin" in the areas of the south I've lived. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 From asr at ufl.edu Thu Feb 3 18:11:11 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 21:11:11 -0500 Subject: Contradciting the notion of 'real' contradictions. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:43:52 PST." <1107380632.2804.51.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <200502040211.j142BBaA075096@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> It is entirely possible to construct a contradiction (a lie) in most symbolic structures. 2+2=2. This sentence is false. Etc. Contradictions posited in reality are an artifact of poor perspective. ==> On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:43:52 -0800, Steve Brust said: > I beg to differ. Life MUST contradict itself in order to exist. A living > body is constantly dying and being reborn, adding cells to itself and > sloughing off other cells. Death itself is a process (hence all the legal > problems about exactly at what point in an orgamism "death" occurs. In the > time that it has taken me to write this, some numbers of cells in my body > have died; others have been created. Should this process stop, I would > certainly be dead. The contradiction you speak of comes in our symbolic structure, not in reality, which doesn't need to do anything in order to exist. Where we get tripped up is in trying to drop tiny neat spherical memes like 'life' around things that are so complex as to beggar our imagination. This might be deemed begging the question (hah!) because: Since we must communicate using such symbolic structures, said structures form the only shared means we can use to see the world, so _all_ our windows on reality might transmit contradictions, even if the error is in the transmission, not the reality. But all kinds of religious movements are rooted in the goal of divorcing yourself from conceptual structures in your experience of the world. It's at least worth making the distinction between contradictions inherent in the world around us, and contradiction inherent in our sensory or conceptual apparatus. - Allen S. Rout - This navel-dive brought to you by Bayer (r) (sm) laprascopic equipment. From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 19:30:47 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:30:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 'cause it's not "duh" anymore In-Reply-To: <3AAB4E1F.26F1FA54.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050204033047.37133.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > I see the difference between "it's" and its". I was going to be an English > teacher, but decided I didn't want to take math to ge there. Sometimes, when > people make grammatical (I'll never be able to spell) error well, you got "grammatical" right! -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 19:34:05 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:34:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: ARRGGGGHHHHH!!! (Now back on topic) In-Reply-To: <20050131034132.GB7267@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050204033405.37833.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jot Powers wrote: > > Well, we have Norathar (sp?) via the attributes of the last of the > Viscount. But, naturally, Mark knew this. We've met her, but not since she took the Orb. All we know of her reign is what little we see in Paarfi's front matter. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Feb 3 19:40:47 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:40:47 EST Subject: Begs the Question Message-ID: <29.6c0ff2b2.2f3448bf@aol.com> Vlad thinking to Kragar: "Yeah. But that begs the question. How could he afford to hire them? Plus pay whatever it must have cost to start trouble in the Easterners' Quarter?" Yendi, Chapter 9, page 111. The Book of Jhereg, Yendi, Chapter 9, page 250. Sethra speaking: "As I say, this one skill implies many others. How did they acquire this skill? Some of the younger ones have been taught by some of the older ones; I was once offered godhood. But this still begs the question: Whence came the oldest of the gods, and how did they acquire their abilities?" Issola, paperback, Chapter 2, page 35. Sethra speaking: "A demon? No, the demons have their own lives, and no concern for our world, except when they are summoned; and that only begs the question of who did the summoning and why?" Issola, paperback, Chapter 2, page 42. Thank you book search. From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 19:46:58 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:46:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- John Klein wrote: > Hey, that's Sam's song! No, Sam's Song begins Well, it's after hours down in Harry's Bar, and the evening has just begun, And MacIvor is telling all over again how he nearly fell into the sun, And the droid in the corner is getting well oiled, and the Wookiee has let down his hair, And I'm sitting alone on a 49 bus and I'm wishing that I was there... (Zander Nyrond) OHHHH, you mean... never mind. mark by hand __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From crhaden at gotrain.org Thu Feb 3 20:42:30 2005 From: crhaden at gotrain.org (Curtis) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:42:30 -0600 Subject: OT: Weigh In (And thank God we have the promise of printed material to keep us entertained) Message-ID: <4202FD36.3060009@gotrain.org> Off Topic This deals with our favorite world in a barely peripheral sense, so read no further if you don't want to. Wait, am I being too mystical? :-P I've been on this list, and off it, and on again for a while now. I'm not a prolific poster, as you well know by now. After reading posts by some of the regulars, I realize, much to my dismay, that I'm not even a particularly deep thinker. I share with you however, a debased love of Vlad, Aliera, Morrollon, Sethra, and the Fab Four of the only romances I've ever been able to read, as well as our favorite purveyor of these personalities. My HS English teacher would tell my that my sentence structure is horrid and I use too many commas. Deal with it, I'm not getting paid. Anyway, on with the off topic, topic... I read with interest this story: http://news.com.com/Grokster+and+Americas+future/2010-1028-5559340.html?part=dht&tag=npro&tag=nl.e433 Now, to begin with, I have to say that I work in a profession that deals with upholding law. Having said that, I also have to say that I came to the world of computers and internet when the word 'free' was taken for granted. I remember that my interest in computers was encouraged by people I knew who refused to share knowledge with me, whether for reasons of selfishness or simply lack of time and patience. I recall that the only way I was going to learn anything, was to wade in and try to figure things out on my own. So, I did. What does this have to do with P2P software and archival copying of DVD's? Nothing and everything. I remember buying a copy of Win98 several years ago. I also remember that Win98SE was going to cost me more than I could afford at the time. Having spent my well earned dollars for 98, should I pay the 'corporate devil' more for the fix to the flaws in the software I already purchased? I won't tell you whether I did or not. On one hand, I'd be a crook, on the other, I'd be naive...heh. Did you ever think of what bottled water was, spelled backwards? naivE. I guess the grinding question of my story, and the story I have linked here is: Should technological advances and the sharing of knowledge, via the internet, be protected by the law of Corporate Copyright? I have no problem with someone coming up with an original idea and profiting from it. Hell, its the Hungarian...err...American dream. But, should we allow, the people who have all the money, to tell us that we can't share or copy software, on the chance that someone else may profit from it? Please read the link before responding. In the face of waiting for Dzur, or Creotha, or whatever Steve comes up with, this may be the only worthwhile entertainment I have for a while. I realize, after proofreading, that I should not post whilst drunk. Wait, I'm always drunk when posting. Nevermind. -- Life, thy name is Irony ...Or, something like that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20050203/3886b8e0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 3 22:11:19 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:11:19 -0700 Subject: Weigh In (And thank God we have the promise of printed material to keep us entertained) References: <4202FD36.3060009@gotrain.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Curtis To: dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: OT: Weigh In (And thank God we have the promise of printed material to keep us entertained) But, should we allow, the people who have all the money, to tell us that we can't share or copy software, on the chance that someone else may profit from it? Please read the link before responding. In the face of waiting for Dzur, or Creotha, or whatever Steve comes up with, this may be the only worthwhile entertainment I have for a while. I realize, after proofreading, that I should not post whilst drunk. Wait, I'm always drunk when posting. Nevermind. -- Life, thy name is Irony ...Or, something like that. I am definately not the best person to answer this. You could loosely label me as a Rational Anarchist (read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Heinlein for the definetion), as such, I give only a passing regard to most laws. I feel that Napster, Grokster and the rest of the P2P sharing software are good for the consumer, and good for the industry. Why? Because it weeds out most of the garbage. If an artist only produces 1 or 2 decent songs, they will be downloaded, and no one will by the album. On the other hand, if they make a good album with good content, most people will by the CD anyway. This applies to movies as well. The record companies are actually selling MORE cd's this year than last year. Plus, who is making a profit? Yes, some of the P2P software costs money, but that is not directly affecting the record companies. So in short, I have no sympathy for the entertainment industry. The software industry is a different story. While I admit I have not paid for a Microsoft product in the last 15 years, I do pay for software that I use and think is worth the money. (I refuse to pay Bill Gates when he won't spend some of his billions to put out a decent product. Besides, he stole the original Windows code in the first place. MS DOS too.) Fortunately, in the software industry, there are people that produce shareware that works as well (or better) than a boxed up, store bought product, and they survive on donations or subscriptions after letting you test their product. I suppose what it comes down to is the governtment needs to butt out. The good products will survive, the bad fall to the wayside. It is not the governments job to ensure that a company makes money, it is the management of that company. (Pardon the ramble, it's been a long day. I will probably read this at work tomorrow and slap myself.) Jeff G. From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 4 06:20:04 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:20:04 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:35:51 -0700, you wrote: > > >Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus > >> writes: > >> > >>> Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different > >>> pronunciations. > > > >I wondered where these don't have distinctly different pronunciations. > > > > As Jose said, in the south they tend to blur a lot of these > pronunciations. > > They both are pronounced "pin" in the areas of the south I've lived. > I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're referring the US South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the vowels. From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 4 07:13:50 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:13:50 -0500 Subject: Weigh In (And thank God we have the promise of printed materi al to keep us entertained) Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Curtis [mailto:crhaden at gotrain.org] I guess the grinding question of my story, and the story I have linked here is:? Should technological advances and the sharing of knowledge, via the internet, be protected by the law of Corporate Copyright?? I have no problem with someone coming up with an original idea and profiting from it.? Hell, its the Hungarian...err...American dream.? But, should we allow, the people who have all the money, to tell us that we can't share or copy software, on the chance that someone else may profit from it? -----End Original Message----- I'm not worried about court cases. Yes, the RIAA and it's ilk can spend enough money to persuade the governments of the world to impose stifling restrictions on technology and innovation. But you know what? There are more people in the world that are far smarter than the sort of business executive that makes the kinds of decisions that lead to the DMCA. If those executives had some sense, they'd work with the technology. There's always going to be someone smart enough to break whatever form of technical restriction that is put in place to protect "content" (a word I now despise). If you don't think so, read the following for some arguments. Unfortunately, I don't recall where I found the link. http://www.craphound.com/msftdrm.txt With that said, the fact that corporations want to make things illegal is pointless when breaking those laws is so simple, and the reasons for doing so are so compelling (e-books for the blind anyone?) that violations will eventually become commonplace. The corporations can't sue everyone in existence, though some seem to be trying. What worries me is the new tack that these corporations are taking. They call them "education campaigns" or something similar. I call them an attempt to brainwash parents, and therefore children, into thinking that whatever the corporation thinks is good for the corporation must be good for the public, a stance that is patently false. Yes, many people deserve some recompense for their services. No, I don't believe the RIAA or their labels are the entities deserving of that compensation. As for the software market, I refuse to pay Microsoft for subscription virus and spyware updates when it's their own faulty software that makes such updates necessary to begin with. I refuse to pay any software company for a new version that fails to provide something more than what was expected in the old version (like stability for instance). I refuse to pay for software whose license (a legal contract that I believe has been tried in court and found binding, though I'm not sure) I'm not allowed to read until it's too late. I refuse to pay for software that I cannot test, or determine in some other manner if it will meet my needs. I refuse to pay for software that attempts to spy on my computer activities, or performs other functions of which I am unaware. Hm, maybe I should just stop there before I really get started ranting. From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Feb 4 07:26:39 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:26:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: @> > Hey, that's Sam's song! @> @> No, Sam's Song begins You mean, speaking as a linguist, you wish to tell me that Sam's song and Sam's Song are the same thing? @> Well, it's after hours down in Harry's Bar, @> and the evening has just begun, @> And MacIvor is telling all over again @> how he nearly fell into the sun, If only there were some way to combine these concepts... ah, wait! Google can do it for me. Oh great Google, I beseech thee, tell me about piano man (filk OR parody)! ... The times are dark here in Rivendell Humans and dwarves shuffle in There's an tall man standing next to them And he waits as the journey begins He says, "Men, we must fight for our victory And follow the Ring where it goes We must bring them defeat, and our team is complete When I wear a warriors clothes" La la la, de de da La la, de de da da dum Chorus: Not just an elf, he is Legolas Quick as a lightning strike Well, we all know that he's in the fellowship And he'll never give up the fight ... From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 4 09:32:36 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:32:36 -0500 Subject: lazy pronounciation Message-ID: <4172E240.15F73F2A.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:20:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Grady Brandt writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] >> >> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:35:51 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus >> >> writes: >> >> >> >>> Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different >> >>> pronunciations. >> > >> >I wondered where these don't have distinctly different pronunciations. >> > >> >> As Jose said, in the south they tend to blur a lot of these >> pronunciations. >> >> They both are pronounced "pin" in the areas of the south I've lived. >> > >I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're referring the US >South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the >vowels. > "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" -C From dave at waveridersystems.com Fri Feb 4 09:41:25 2005 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:41:25 -0800 Subject: lazy pronounciation References: <4172E240.15F73F2A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c50ae0$c22cdfc0$c3d6f7a5@queeg.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:32 AM Subject: lazy pronounciation > In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:20:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Grady Brandt writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] > >> > >> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:35:51 -0700, you wrote: > >> > >> >Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> >> In a message dated 2/2/2005 5:54:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, lazarus > >> >> writes: > >> >> > >> >>> Also, "pen" and "pin" should have distinctly different > >> >>> pronunciations. > >> > > >> >I wondered where these don't have distinctly different pronunciations. > >> > > >> > >> As Jose said, in the south they tend to blur a lot of these > >> pronunciations. > >> > >> They both are pronounced "pin" in the areas of the south I've lived. > >> > > > >I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're referring the US > >South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the > >vowels. > > > "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" > -C > And for large groups: "All y'all". Dave From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 4 09:52:57 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:52:57 -0500 Subject: money! Message-ID: <61666530.3D001291.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok, guys, I've had the stickers for 2 weeks now and I have only seen a little over a 1/4 of the money. If there are trust issues, like thinking the stickers aren't real and I am going to scam you (don't worry, no one messed with my head and I am not going to take of with the Jhereg treasury). I have gotten several replies from people who got the stickers. You won't get your stickers unless I have your money. I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but that $200 could go toward my wedding dress or something (like stupid loans). Thank you all who sent your money already. If you lost my address, e-mail me and I'll give it to you. -C From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 4 10:14:24 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:14:24 -0700 Subject: lazy pronounciation In-Reply-To: <4172E240.15F73F2A.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <4172E240.15F73F2A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:32:36 -0500, wrote: >> I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're referring >> the US >> South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the >> vowels. >> > "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" When the rest of the country is content with "you" for singular and plural, adding an extra bit for further knowledge isn't being lazy. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 4 10:24:56 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:24:56 -0500 Subject: lazy pronounciation Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:32:36 -0500, wrote: > > >> I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're referring > >> the US > >> South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the > >> vowels. > >> > > "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" > > When the rest of the country is content with "you" for singular and > plural, adding an extra bit for further knowledge isn't being lazy. I've never heard that usage. I hear "you all" sometimes, and "you guys" and maybe another phrase or two that I can't recall, but never just "you" to refer to a group; it's usually "y'all". Of course, I haven't spent much time outside of southern states to pick up on the differences in dialect. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 4 10:26:55 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:26:55 -0800 Subject: lazy pronounciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050204182705.RTQC9332.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 10:14 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: lazy pronounciation > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:32:36 -0500, wrote: > > >> I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're > referring > >> the US > >> South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, > particularly > >> the vowels. > >> > > "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" > > When the rest of the country is content with "you" for > singular and plural, adding an extra bit for further > knowledge isn't being lazy. > > -- If it were the case that people in the south were only using "y'all" to indicate the plural...which from correspondence with people in Texas does not seem to be the case. I get called "y'all" frequently, even though they are only communicating with me, a single person. Shawn From Bato001 at aol.com Fri Feb 4 10:44:09 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:44:09 -0500 Subject: money! Message-ID: <6ECCF330.7D3E8891.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 2/4/2005 12:52:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >Ok, guys, I've had the stickers for 2 weeks now and I have only seen a little over a 1/4 of the money. If there are trust issues, like thinking the stickers aren't real and I am going to scam you (don't worry, no one messed with my head and I am not going to take of with the Jhereg treasury). I have gotten several replies from people who got the stickers. You won't get your stickers unless I have your money. I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but that $200 could go toward my wedding dress or something (like stupid loans). Thank you all who sent your money already. >If you lost my address, e-mail me and I'll give it to you. >-C > Got my stickers on Tuesday. They're pretty cool. Come on ya slugs. Pony up. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Feb 4 11:33:45 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:33:45 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: (Philip Hart's message of "Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:57:40 -0800 (PST)") References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050202134214.034c6390@pop.east.cox.net> <16897.8393.838800.952159@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? I can say them differently if I try. I can hear them differently in my head. I am less reliable at hearing them differently when other people say them. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 4 13:22:11 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:22:11 -0500 Subject: lazy pronounciation Message-ID: <681453D1.73DF531E.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/4/2005 1:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:32:36 -0500, wrote: > >>> I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're referring ? >>> the US >>> South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the >>> vowels. >>> >> "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" > >When the rest of the country is content with "you" for singular and ? >plural, adding an extra bit for further knowledge isn't being lazy. > >-- Sorry, I was meaning instead of saying "all of you" it's "ya'll" -C >Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Feb 4 13:29:21 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:29:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: lazy pronounciation In-Reply-To: <20050204182705.RTQC9332.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050204182705.RTQC9332.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: @> > When the rest of the country is content with "you" for @> > singular and plural, adding an extra bit for further @> > knowledge isn't being lazy. @> @> If it were the case that people in the south were only using "y'all" to @> indicate the plural...which from correspondence with people in Texas does @> not seem to be the case. I get called "y'all" frequently, even though they @> are only communicating with me, a single person. Most southerners I've spoken with seem to use it as a second person singular familiar, which is also something we're missing in our language since "thee" has fallen out of fashion. That isn't uniform, though; I bet it's regional. From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Feb 4 13:36:30 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:36:30 -0500 Subject: money! In-Reply-To: <61666530.3D001291.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <4203A48E.6833.17E09B4@localhost> On 4 Feb 2005 at 12:52, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > Ok, guys, I've had the stickers for 2 weeks now and I have only seen a > little over a 1/4 of the money. If there are trust issues, like > thinking the stickers aren't real and I am going to scam you (don't > worry, no one messed with my head and I am not goi ng to take of with > the Jhereg treasury). I have gotten several replies from people who > got the stickers. You won't get your stickers unless I have your > money. I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but that $200 could go > toward my wedding dress or somethin g (like stupid loans). Thank you > all who sent your money already. If you lost my address, e-mail me and > I'll give it to you. -C Just to toss my 2 cents in (so to speak). I got my stickers yesterday and already I have one hanging in my office to cause consternation among my co-workers. They are very cool. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Feb 4 14:06:56 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 14:06:56 -0800 Subject: OT: Weigh In (And thank God we have the promise of printed material to keep us entertained) In-Reply-To: <4202FD36.3060009@gotrain.org> References: <4202FD36.3060009@gotrain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:42:30 -0600, Curtis wrote: >I guess the grinding question of my story, and the story I have linked >here is: Should technological advances and the sharing of knowledge, >via the internet, be protected by the law of Corporate Copyright? I >have no problem with someone coming up with an original idea and >profiting from it. Hell, its the Hungarian...err...American dream. >But, should we allow, the people who have all the money, to tell us that >we can't share or copy software, on the chance that someone else may >profit from it? Every new album I've bought in the past three years I only bought because I downloaded most of it ahead of time. I've been burned enough times by albums that had one good song on them, and a bunch of crap. The RIAA isn't losing money to pirates, it's losing money to stupidity. Case in point, Metallica vs Napster. Metallica found a bunch of people who were fans of their music, and sued them. Anybody with even a passing familiarity with marketing knows that a list of tens of thousands of email addresses that /you know for a fact/ are for fans of a specific group is priceless. Cut a deal with Napster, and start direct marketing these people. Seems obvious to me. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Feb 4 13:57:26 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:57:26 -0600 Subject: OT: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) In-Reply-To: <7B627AA9.022BED16.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <7B627AA9.022BED16.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050204215726.GD23683@Durandal> On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 04:56:03PM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > 2/3/2005 1:37:49 PM EST, Johne Cook writes: > >On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:18:04 -0800 (PST), Chris Olson - SunPS > > wrote: > >> Yep, sounds like me all right. ?I'm an anti-social social > >> person (or a social anti-social person, take your pick). > > > >I'm a gregarious loner. ?; ) > >-- > I am the same way. Perfectly fine on my own, but am willing to have company...and plenty of it! > -C So, do y'all (*waves to nearby thread*) consider yourselves introverts? Extraverts? A little of both, niether? Not only am I curious, I've been trying to do some light research on the subject (real research is out, not having access to an academic library), primarily to help deal with a recurrent conflict between me and my husband. He seems to fit into the 'gregarious loner' category to some extent, but calls himself an introvert, as do a few of our friends. The conflict stems >from the fact that, while I also call myself an introvert, I am way, way more introverted than any of them. So he compares my behavior to theirs and says, "but we're introverts too, and we *like* X," where X is usually a social situation, and the anvil-sized implication is that there is something wrong with me. So, a few questions for ya'll and everyone else on the list: 1) What percentage of your time do you enjoy interacting with others? Being around others but not interacting with them? Being alone? 2) If you're alone, how often do you feel the need to a) be around but not interacting with others, and b) be around and interacting with others? 3) If you're in a situation in which you have to interact with people (ie, for whatever reason it's not considered polite to read a book or whatever), how much do you like/dislike the situation? How much do you wish you could stay or leave? How much do you want to not have to interact with them, and how much would you just rather be alone? 4) If you're in a situation in which you're around people, but interacting with them is optional, how often do you find yourself interacting with them, and how often would you just rather be alone? For anyone who answered these four but not the one at the top of the email, I could use that bit too. These questions could probably be split in two, with one half concerning people you know, and the other half concerning people you don't know. Actually, it should be a spectrum, with 'total stranger' at one end and 'intimate partner' at the other, but that's beyond the scope of this medium. My experience with most people has been that they believe the I/E contrast to be black and white. Knowing that many other personality traits exist not as polar opposites but as spectrums, I've come to think that I/E is no different... but there seems to be a lack of pertinent information online. I guess the info has not had the time or the need to trickle from the field of psychology down to the lay-level. Yours in curiosity, Kat From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Fri Feb 4 14:18:19 2005 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:18:19 -0500 Subject: lazy pronounciation In-Reply-To: References: <4172E240.15F73F2A.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <4203F4AB.10502@cinci.rr.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:32:36 -0500, wrote: > >>> I think that's because we southerners (I'm assuming you're >>> referring the US >>> South) tend to be lazy about our pronunciation anyway, particularly the >>> vowels. >>> >> "Ya'll" "you all" "you guys" "all of you" > > > When the rest of the country is content with "you" for singular and > plural, adding an extra bit for further knowledge isn't being lazy. > The south doesn't have a monopoly on second person plurals; Pittsburgh does have the charming 'yinz/yunz' for that purpose. N -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/05 From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 4 18:35:18 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:35:18 -0700 Subject: money! In-Reply-To: <4203A48E.6833.17E09B4@localhost> Message-ID: <000301c50b2b$5589f150$667ba8c0@Dad133> Michele Riccio wrote: > On 4 Feb 2005 at 12:52, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > > > Just to toss my 2 cents in (so to speak). I got my stickers yesterday > and already I have one hanging in my office to cause consternation > among my co-workers. They are very cool. Mine arrived today. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 4 18:37:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:37:27 -0700 Subject: lazy pronunciation In-Reply-To: <4203F4AB.10502@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <000401c50b2b$a295e940$667ba8c0@Dad133> What does "youz" mean? It seems to be a New York thing, and I assumed it meant "you" in the singular, but may be wrong. From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Feb 5 08:47:43 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:47:43 -0500 Subject: lazy pronunciation Message-ID: <614D3FAF.29AD34A4.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >What does "youz" mean? ? It seems to be a New York thing, and I assumed it >meant "you" in the singular, but may be wrong. > > > I took it to mean "young ones" or some other from pertaing to "young." To kid around, my fmily will say "yungyins" (meant to sound like onions with a "g"). -C > From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Feb 5 08:56:45 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:56:45 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such Message-ID: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> "Aggresive on defencive?" (Vlad to Sethra) "Certainly, Vlad. After all, it's always the defender who starts the war." "Excuse me? Then it was Fornia who started the war with Morrolan?" "Yes indeed. That made him the defneder, and that was why so much effort was involved in bringing him over to the attack." ... "The attcker doesn't want the war. The attacker wants to conquer. If the defender would simply allow him to do so there would be no war." "Uh... Sethra, I think there's something wrong with you logic." "No, there isn't. It's counterintuitive, but it isn't wrong." **stupid blonde giggle** -C From casey at the-bat.net Fri Feb 4 15:13:43 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:13:43 -0500 Subject: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) In-Reply-To: <20050204215726.GD23683@Durandal> Message-ID: Tsarren asked: > So, do y'all (*waves to nearby thread*) consider yourselves > introverts? Yep. [snip] > The conflict stems from the fact that, while I also call > myself an introvert, I am way, way more introverted than > any of them. So he compares my behavior to theirs and > says, "but we're introverts too, and we *like* X," where > X is usually a social situation, and the anvil-sized > implication is that there is something wrong with me. Whoa. A) Not all introverts are created alike. B) There is no reason that any two people, whatever their personality makeup, have to enjoy the same social situation. These are things where personal experience matters. > So, a few questions for ya'll and everyone else on the list: There are some good personality 'tests' out there. Most of them don't call themselves tests because they want to make sure that the subject doesn't feel obligated to give the 'right' answers. There aren't universal right or wrong answers to these questions. Rather, there are answers that are more right for you. > My experience with most people has been that they believe > the I/E contrast to be black and white. Knowing that many > other personality traits exist not as polar opposites but > as spectrums, I've come to think that I/E is no different... You'd be right. > but there seems to be a lack of pertinent information online. Try looking for Myers-Briggs. Casey From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 13:41:31 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:41:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Link to Nytemuse's site is broken Message-ID: <20050205214131.40866.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Casey Rousseau wrote to me : > http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/index.html#Othersites > Specifically the link to > http://www.crowfire.com/books/skzb/ > > Looks like she didn't pay her domain name renewal. Thanks, Casey. K'sozhaleniju, I have confirmed your report. It was a nice site while it lasted, but I'm removing it from my list. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 14:09:51 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: dmoz Open Directory Project In-Reply-To: <1aa.30fa8978.2f35afe5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050205220951.83718.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote to me as follows; I'm posting this to the whole list because I think it is of legitimate interest and it contains as far as I can see nothing personal or confidential. >>>>> Hi David and Mark, I hope I am not repeating myself again. I remember sending an email to Mark about cracksandshards.com not being on the author search or rather hiding there with the old address, but I think I did not send one to David. Do you know if either of you have submitted dragaera.info or www.dreamcafe.com to dmoz Open Directory Project? <<<<< Thank you, first for the information about the site and second for nagging me. I had not submitted Cracks and Shards, but I am doing so now. Dmoz.com speaks of "your site", so it seems to me that David should submit dragaera.info, and Steve should submit Dream Cafe, or maybe Corwin can do it with a note from Steve saying "I authorize this because I'm too lazy or busy to do it myself", or some such. >>>>> http://dmoz.org/cgi-bin/add.cgi?where=Arts/Literature/Genres/Fantasy/Authors/B/Brust,_Steven It says dmoz eventually feeds some search engines, like google's. http://directory.google.com/alpha/Top/Arts/Literature/Genres/Fantasy/Authors/B/Brust,_Steven/ www.dreamcafe.com is on yahoo's http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/Literature/Authors/Science_Fiction_and_Fantasy/Brust__Steven/ Yahoo doesn't seem to be fed from dmoz because the same seven sites are not on it. <<<<< -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 14:12:43 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: more about dmoz.com Message-ID: <20050205221243.12899.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I forgot to include this: >>>>> Submission Received Your site submission has been received. An editor will review your submission for inclusion in the directory. Once your site has been accepted into the Open Directory, it may take anywhere >from 2 weeks to several months for your site to be listed on partner sites which use the Open Directory data, such as AOL Search, AltaVista, HotBot, Google, Lycos, Netscape Search, etc. We make updates of the data available weekly, but each partner has their own update schedule. -------------------------------- Consider becoming an editor and maintaining a category. The Open Directory has a comprehensive set of tools for adding, deleting, and updating links in seconds. For just a few minutes of your time you can help make the Web a better place, and be recognized as an expert on your chosen topic. <<<<< So, who wants to become editor for the Brust section, which currently has just seven sites in it? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 15:54:34 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:54:34 -0700 Subject: on contradictions and such References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 9:56 AM Subject: on contradictions and such > "Aggresive on defencive?" (Vlad to Sethra) > "Certainly, Vlad. After all, it's always the defender who starts the war." > "Excuse me? Then it was Fornia who started the war with Morrolan?" > "Yes indeed. That made him the defneder, and that was why so much effort was involved in bringing him over to the attack." > ... > "The attcker doesn't want the war. The attacker wants to conquer. If the defender would simply allow him to do so there would be no war." > "Uh... Sethra, I think there's something wrong with you logic." > "No, there isn't. It's counterintuitive, but it isn't wrong." > > **stupid blonde giggle** > -C > Actually, I was quite impressed with the author, as this is a subject (active defense, or more commonly defense in depth) that is not so well known in non-military circles. It also increased the chances for success in a campaign such as the one Sethra (acting for Morrolan) was undertaking. I wonder what books he studied, or if he is simply a very gifted amateur? Jeff G. From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 17:57:33 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:57:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050206015734.16258.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> Maybe some books on the Military Strategy of the Roman Empire. I cannot remember specific books that I read during my years at school on the subject (my degree is in International Politics and Security), but I do remember that Rome and then the U.S. (beginning circa 1950 and lasting until the Soviets developed a second strike capable nuclear force) are the two best examples of large-scale defense in depth. ~ ST Jeff Gibbons wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 9:56 AM Subject: on contradictions and such > "Aggresive on defencive?" (Vlad to Sethra) > "Certainly, Vlad. After all, it's always the defender who starts the war." > "Excuse me? Then it was Fornia who started the war with Morrolan?" > "Yes indeed. That made him the defneder, and that was why so much effort was involved in bringing him over to the attack." > ... > "The attcker doesn't want the war. The attacker wants to conquer. If the defender would simply allow him to do so there would be no war." > "Uh... Sethra, I think there's something wrong with you logic." > "No, there isn't. It's counterintuitive, but it isn't wrong." > > **stupid blonde giggle** > -C > Actually, I was quite impressed with the author, as this is a subject (active defense, or more commonly defense in depth) that is not so well known in non-military circles. It also increased the chances for success in a campaign such as the one Sethra (acting for Morrolan) was undertaking. I wonder what books he studied, or if he is simply a very gifted amateur? Jeff G. 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.' --C S Lewis From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Sat Feb 5 17:57:44 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:57:44 -0800 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> On Feb 5, 2005, at 8:56 AM, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > "Aggresive on defencive?" (Vlad to Sethra) > "Certainly, Vlad. After all, it's always the defender who starts the > war." > "Excuse me? Then it was Fornia who started the war with Morrolan?" > "Yes indeed. That made him the defneder, and that was why so much > effort was involved in bringing him over to the attack." > ... > "The attcker doesn't want the war. The attacker wants to conquer. If > the defender would simply allow him to do so there would be no war." > "Uh... Sethra, I think there's something wrong with you logic." > "No, there isn't. It's counterintuitive, but it isn't wrong." > > **stupid blonde giggle** > -C > > I remember that exchange. By that logic, though, doesn't that seem to indicate that the US wanted Japan to begin (although perhaps not a Pearl Harbor style attack) WW2...? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 19:12:29 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:12:29 -0700 Subject: on contradictions and such References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Scott" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 6:57 PM Subject: Re: on contradictions and such > > I remember that exchange. By that logic, though, doesn't that seem to > indicate that the US wanted Japan to begin (although perhaps not a > Pearl Harbor style attack) WW2...? > > It depends on how you read it. The US had imposed a series of economic sanctions on Japan, limiting its crucial imports (oil, steel) during the 20's and 30's to curb its imperialist expansion (We don't like to share). Japan felt that crippling the bases on Hawaii would prevent the US from being able to enforce those sanctions, allowing the continued pillaging of China and Korea, er, I mean the completion of the "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere". Certain individuals (including Admiral Yamamoto, the orchestrate of the Pearl Harbor attack) felt this was a bad idea, but the culture of the Japanese society left them in a poor position to oppose it. Now the interesting thing is, there is evidence that some feel that the US was aware that the Japanese had an attack planned, and allowed it to happen, thus causing a public outcry that would allow a military response towards Japan. That scenario seem familiar to anyone? So in actuality, the US was already the attacker, in an economic sense. What Japan tried to do was make it the attacker in a military sense, then use the Pacific Islands and their fleet as defense in depth. That would allow them time to consolidate their holdings in China, Korea, and the Senkaku Islands. But, they missed the aircraft carriers, and, well, you know the rest of the story. Jeff G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Feb 5 19:26:55 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:26:55 EST Subject: on contradictions and such Message-ID: <1e1.3539ed6f.2f36e87f@aol.com> Hi, In response to a posting from MedCat7.aol.com on Sat, 05 Feb 2005 about Vlad and Sethra's interesting conversation on "Aggressive on defense?" in Dragon, Chapter 12, page 204-205 (this conversation with Sethra starts on page 202), Jeff Gibbons wrote on Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:54:34 -0700 >Actually, I was quite impressed with the author, as this is a subject >(active defense, or more commonly defense in depth) that is not so well >known in non-military circles. It also increased the chances for success in >a campaign such as the one Sethra (acting for Morrolan) was undertaking. I >wonder what books he studied, or if he is simply a very gifted amateur? Clauswitz >From http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html Dragon SKZB> Another Vlad novel, and I'm one I'm pretty happy with. I have a lot > of sympathy with people who want to read the books in chronological order, > so I wrote this one to help them out: it falls before and after Yendi. > Heh heh heh. It also provided me with an excuse to read Clauswitz, which > was actually fairly entertaining. The character of Napper is loosely based > on the late Bruce Beesman, a guy I played a lot of poker with, and whom I > miss. Bye. Linda G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Sun Feb 6 05:34:19 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 08:34:19 -0500 Subject: Type Indicators (was RE: Introversion / Extraversion) Message-ID: <2513370D.6FDDFBAA.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/4/2005 6:13:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Casey Rousseau" writes: >Try looking for Myers-Briggs. > >Casey > That's the one! Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator. Also there is The Keirsey Temperment Sorter. They are a little different, but are basically the same thing. The way I answered the questions, I turned out to be ENFJ, but I read all the others and I share traits with all of them except ISTJ. I highly recomend doing these, even if it's just for fun. You should read the one you think you are most like, then answer the questions truthfully. I think they are very accurate. I wish I had the website, but the names should do. Have fun! -C > From MedCat7 at aol.com Sun Feb 6 05:48:20 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 08:48:20 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such Message-ID: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/5/2005 6:54:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff Gibbons" writes: > >Actually, I was quite impressed with the author, as this is a subject >(active defense, or more commonly defense in depth) that is not so well >known in non-military circles. It also increased the chances for success in >a campaign such as the one Sethra (acting for Morrolan) was undertaking. I >wonder what books he studied, or if he is simply a very gifted amateur? > >Jeff G. > Oh, by all means, I thought it was a great plan. And it does make sense. I just thought it was a great contradiction that defender starts the war. If you really think on it, and it just dawned on me the logic in that even as I type, it makes perfect sense. (Not to be a total nerd, but) In a video game I play, and NPCs will even suggest, if you taunt another NPC, they will attack you, and you are defending youself. You want them to attack you, so you don't got to prison for starting the fight. (Such a great game...) -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Sun Feb 6 05:55:11 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 08:55:11 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such Message-ID: <445EAD97.02B7706C.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/5/2005 8:57:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, Timothy Scott writes: >>I remember that exchange. ?By that logic, though, doesn't that seem to >indicate that the US wanted Japan to begin (although perhaps not a >Pearl Harbor style attack) WW2...? > > I never payed too much attention in history (though I wish I did), why did Japan attack Pearl Harbor? -C From dusty at sayersnet.com Sun Feb 6 10:44:42 2005 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:44:42 -0500 Subject: lazy pronunciation In-Reply-To: <614D3FAF.29AD34A4.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <614D3FAF.29AD34A4.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <4206659A.7000803@sayersnet.com> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > > > >>What does "youz" mean? It seems to be a New York thing, and I assumed it >>meant "you" in the singular, but may be wrong. >> >> >> >> >> >I took it to mean "young ones" or some other from pertaing to "young." To kid around, my fmily will say "yungyins" (meant to sound like onions with a "g"). >-C > > > > > > That reminds me of a friend (more my father's friend than mine, really) who move up here (Upper East Tennessee) from Louisiana (where apparently the Cajuns have an accent, but not a Southern Appalachian accent). At one point his family came to visit, and, passing through Carter County, saw a great mass of police and other folks out, so they stopped to ask what was wrong. The truth of the matter was that some young kid had gone hiking or otherwise gotten lost in the woods (he was later found--apparently some mountain man had found him and taken care of him), and, at the time, no-one knew where he was. It was a big deal locally in 1983 or so. This was summarised for my friend and his parents as 'We're lookin' for a young'n.' Our well-meaning Cajuns asked the officer of the law to repeat this, and, with exasperation he said 'We're lookin' for a YOUNG'N.' The best they could make out was that he was, in fact, looking for an onion, which seemed like a lot of trouble for such a large search party. Happily, our protagonists (who had actually just brought some fresh produce up from the bayou) did not compound the problem (as they initially meant to) by saying they had plenty in the trunk, and would gladly share. Also, as a Southerner, I, at least (and all of my friends) only use 'y'all' for second person plural, and generally assume anyone who uses it for a singular second person must be a Yankee who is trying to sound Southern but doesn't really know how. I'll concede that in other parts of the South, however, some Southerners may misuse the contraction, so your experience may be different from my own. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'If it be a sin to covet honour, I am the most offending soul alive.' --William Shakespeare, Henry V From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Feb 7 08:27:22 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:27:22 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff Gibbons wrote: >It depends on how you read it. The US had imposed a series of economic >sanctions on Japan, limiting its crucial imports (oil, steel) during the >20's and 30's to curb its imperialist expansion (We don't like to share). > > Not quite. The US simply refused to sell oil and other natural resources (scrap steel, eg) to Japan, starting in '38, and IIRC froze at least some bank assets as well. It did so because it was alarmed at the course of Japan's war in China & at Japan's ultimate plans in Asia. It was not really concerned with markets or resources for itself in China. >Japan felt that crippling the bases on Hawaii would prevent the US from >being able to enforce those sanctions, allowing the continued pillaging of >China and Korea, er, I mean the completion of the "Greater East Asia >Co-prosperity Sphere". Certain individuals (including Admiral Yamamoto, the >orchestrate of the Pearl Harbor attack) felt this was a bad idea, but the >culture of the Japanese society left them in a poor position to oppose it. > > Say rather that crippling the US fleet at Pearl & capturing US bases throughout the Pacific would prevent the US from further interference with Japanese plans. Ironically, the fleet was moved to Pearl from the West Coast in '40 or '41, to send a warning to the Japanese not to push any further, which is the only thing that made the attack possible; the Japanese would porbably never have tried to cross the whole Pacific & expose themselves to potential land based or submarine attack. >Now the interesting thing is, there is evidence that some feel that the US >was aware that the Japanese had an attack planned, and allowed it to happen, >thus causing a public outcry that would allow a military response towards >Japan. > > I don't think there is *any* credible evidence that US planners were aware of this. Folks have tried to show this for decades (mostly because they don't like Roosevelt), but I've seen nothing that can even be stretched into such a conclusion. Better just to face it: the IJN got away with a sneaky. It isn't the first time the US military has been caught off guard, and it wasn't the last. >So in actuality, the US was already the attacker, in an economic sense. What >Japan tried to do was make it the attacker in a military sense, then use the >Pacific Islands and their fleet as defense in depth. That would allow them >time to consolidate their holdings in China, Korea, and the Senkaku Islands. >But, they missed the aircraft carriers, and, well, you know the rest of the >story. > > > Certainly, that is how many Japanese like to see it, even to this day. But I know of no law that *requires* a country to sell goods to another if it doesn't feel the sale is in its interest. As for the rest, the Japanese plan required absolute control of air & sea, or its garrisons would simply be defeated in detail or left as self-governing "prison camps". The Japanese, especially the IJN, never really grasped the importance of logistics & never understood how vulnerable their supposed defense in depth would actually be. In the end, most of their defense was just bypassed & final resistance collapsed as much due to starvation (both of people and of industry) as to any other cause (although there were certainly other causes). Snarkhunter From scs at di.org Mon Feb 7 08:51:36 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:51:36 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 11:27:22AM -0500, Ken Koester wrote: > Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > Now the interesting thing is, there is evidence that some feel that > > the US was aware that the Japanese had an attack planned, and allowed > > it to happen, thus causing a public outcry that would allow a military > > response towards Japan. > I don't think there is *any* credible evidence that US planners were > aware of this. Folks have tried to show this for decades (mostly > because they don't like Roosevelt), but I've seen nothing that can even > be stretched into such a conclusion. Better just to face it: the IJN > got away with a sneaky. It isn't the first time the US military has > been caught off guard, and it wasn't the last. I'm with Ken on this one. Having read fairly extensively on the topic, there are no events I found which can't be adequately explained by stupidity rather than the conspiracy Jeff refers to. This isn't to say that such a conspiracy isn't possible; there's a much better case that this sort of thing happened with the Maine (tho IMHO that one's not conclusive). But for Pearl Harbor the case just isn't there. Note too that the Pearl Harbor attack one of the most thoroughly researched events in US history. If there were a scrap of real proof, it would almost certianly have surfaced by now. For a pretty good read on the topic, try 'At Dawn We Slept' by Gordon Prange et. al. It's still in print after 14 years, which is no small comment on it. If memory serves, Prange also absolves the base commander, who was made a scapegoat for the attack. There were certianly failures by others, but the base commander wasn't nearly as culpable as others up the line. Steve -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Feb 7 11:02:28 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pearl Harbor sucked (and I miss you) In-Reply-To: <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Ken Koester wrote: > >Now the interesting thing is, there is evidence that some feel that the US > >was aware that the Japanese had an attack planned, and allowed it to happen, > >thus causing a public outcry that would allow a military response towards > >Japan. > I don't think there is *any* credible evidence that US planners were > aware of this. Folks have tried to show this for decades (mostly > because they don't like Roosevelt), but I've seen nothing that can even > be stretched into such a conclusion. I never really understood those attempts myself. It's not like there isn't a surfeit of valid reasons to dislike the Roosevelt administration without going out of one's way to concoct additional ones. pe From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 11:15:26 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:15:26 -0700 Subject: Pearl Harbor sucked (and I miss you) References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gomi no Sensei" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: Pearl Harbor sucked (and I miss you) > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Ken Koester wrote: > > > >Now the interesting thing is, there is evidence that some feel that the US > > >was aware that the Japanese had an attack planned, and allowed it to happen, > > >thus causing a public outcry that would allow a military response towards > > >Japan. > > > I don't think there is *any* credible evidence that US planners were > > aware of this. Folks have tried to show this for decades (mostly > > because they don't like Roosevelt), but I've seen nothing that can even > > be stretched into such a conclusion. > > I never really understood those attempts myself. It's not like there isn't > a surfeit of valid reasons to dislike the Roosevelt administration without > going out of one's way to concoct additional ones. > > pe > Geez, I threw that in there for the consipiracy buffs. Didn't think I would take such a beating for it, although I should have known better. Jeff G. Thank you sir, may I have another? From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Feb 7 12:09:40 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:09:40 -0500 Subject: Pearl Harbor sucked (and I miss you) In-Reply-To: References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <4207CB04.6030506@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff G. wrote: >Geez, I threw that in there for the consipiracy buffs. Didn't think I would >take such a beating for it, although I should have known better. > >Jeff G. >Thank you sir, may I have another? > > > It was a slow, fat one over the plate; couldn't resist (-: I do recommend the Prange, BTW; it's the best researched of many treatments I've seen. Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 7 13:08:49 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:08:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: [some interesting stuff about history snipped] What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep him out of Japan. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 13:38:00 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:38:00 -0700 Subject: on contradictions and such References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:08 PM Subject: Re: on contradictions and such > > > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > [some interesting stuff about history snipped] > > What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of > the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? > Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter > were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) > that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep > him out of Japan. > As I recall, the original justification for the firebombing of Tokyo was that the Japanese industry was spread throughout many small "home" workshops, making the type of directed attack used against the German industry useless. Of course, I haven't studied this in detail for over 15 years, so there may be some information I have forgotten. As far as the atomic bombs, well, I think it was multifaceted, a message to Stalin and a way to finish the war quickly. 1.6 million estimated US casualties if the home islands were invaded is the number that pops into my head, and that was based on the nasty island hopping fighting done on the way to Japan. Also, until you have seen the devestation that they wrecked upon a city, you can not comprehend how devestating those weapons are, regardless of how many films you have seen of them expolding in the desert. Jeff G. From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Mon Feb 7 13:54:02 2005 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:54:02 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such Message-ID: The bombs were nasty as I am former marine I understand the destruction. But what the Japanese did you the Korean woman and Nanking?) make us look like pacifists. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 4:38 PM To: Philip Hart; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: on contradictions and such ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:08 PM Subject: Re: on contradictions and such > > > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > [some interesting stuff about history snipped] > > What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of > the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? > Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter > were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) > that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep > him out of Japan. > As I recall, the original justification for the firebombing of Tokyo was that the Japanese industry was spread throughout many small "home" workshops, making the type of directed attack used against the German industry useless. Of course, I haven't studied this in detail for over 15 years, so there may be some information I have forgotten. As far as the atomic bombs, well, I think it was multifaceted, a message to Stalin and a way to finish the war quickly. 1.6 million estimated US casualties if the home islands were invaded is the number that pops into my head, and that was based on the nasty island hopping fighting done on the way to Japan. Also, until you have seen the devestation that they wrecked upon a city, you can not comprehend how devestating those weapons are, regardless of how many films you have seen of them expolding in the desert. Jeff G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 7 13:41:37 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:41:37 -0500 Subject: OT: but absolutly hysterical Message-ID: <1042234C.272D2C7D.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/7/2005 10:19:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, Crystal.S.Fradette at Hitchcock.ORG (Crystal S. Fradette) writes: My boss sent this out to everyone at work, and I thought you guys might appriciate how funny this crap is. To make it a little on topic, we could be reminded of people being placed under the orb... though I am sure Dragaerans wouldn't be that stupid :o) Enjoy >These are from a book called Disorder in the American >Courts, and are things people actually said in court, >word for word, taken down and now published by court >reporters who had the torment of staying calm while >these exchanges were actually taking place. >_______________________________ >Q: Are you sexually active? >A: No, I just lie there. >__________________________________ >Q: What is your date of birth? >A: July 15th. >Q: What year? >A: Every year. >______________________________________ >Q: What gear were you in at the moment of the impact? >A: Gucci sweats and Reeboks. >______________________________________ >Q: This myasthenia gravis, does it affect your memory >at all? >A: Yes. >Q: And in what ways does it affect your memory? >A: I forget. >Q: You forget? Can you give us an example of something >that you've forgotten? >_____________________________________ >Q: How old is your son, the one living with you? >A: Thirty-eight or thirty-five, I can't remember >which. >Q: How long has he lived with you? >A: Forty-five years. >_____________________________________ >Q: What was the first thing your husband said to you >when he woke up that morning? >A: He said, "Where am I, Doris ?" >Q: And why did that upset you? >A: My name is Susan. >______________________________________ >Q: Do you know if your daughter has ever been involved >in voodoo or the occult? >A: We both do. >Q: Voodoo? >A: We do. >Q: You do? >A: Yes, voodoo. >______________________________________ >Q: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies >in his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next >morning? >A: Did you actually pass the bar exam? >___________________________________ >Q: The youngest son, the twenty-year-old, how old is >he? >_____________________________________ >Q: Were you present when your picture was taken? >______________________________________ >Q: So the date of conception (of the baby) was August >8th? >A: Yes. >Q: And what were you doing at that time? >______________________________________ >Q: She had three children, right? >A: Yes. >Q: How many were boys? >A: None. >Q: Were there any girls? >______________________________________ >Q: How was your first marriage terminated? >A: By death. >Q: And by whose death was it terminated? >______________________________________ >Q: Can you describe the individual? >A: He was about medium height and had a beard. >Q: Was this a male or a female? >______________________________________ >Q: Is your appearance here this morning pursuant to a >deposition notice which I sent to your attorney? >A: No, this is how I dress when I go to work. >______________________________________ >Q: Doctor, how many autopsies have you performed on >dead people? >A: All my autopsies are performed on dead people. >______________________________________ >Q: ALL your responses MUST be oral, OK? What school >did you go to? >A: Oral. >______________________________________ >Q: Do you recall the time that you examined the body? >A: The autopsy started around 8:30 p.m. >Q: And Mr. Dennington was dead at the time? >A: No, he was sitting on the table wondering why I was >doing an autopsy. >______________________________________ >Q: Are you qualified to give a urine sample? >______________________________________ > >SAVED THE BEST FOR LAST!!!!!! >Q: Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you >check for a pulse? >A: No. >Q: Did you check for blood pressure? >A: No. >Q: Did you check for breathing? >A: No. >Q: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive >when you began the autopsy? >A: No. >Q: How can you be so sure, Doctor? >A: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar. >Q: But could the patient have still been alive, >nevertheless? >A: Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive >and practicing law somewhere. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. >http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > >--- End of forwarded text --- > > >Imagine............what we could do if we were truly patient focused > >577-4368 > >--- End of forwarded text --- > >-Crystal ?>^..^< > >"Reality is for those who lack imagination." > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Unknown > From dusty at sayersnet.com Mon Feb 7 14:30:24 2005 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:30:24 -0500 Subject: OT: but absolutly hysterical In-Reply-To: <1042234C.272D2C7D.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <1042234C.272D2C7D.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <4207EC00.6000604@sayersnet.com> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/7/2005 10:19:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, Crystal.S.Fradette at Hitchcock.ORG (Crystal S. Fradette) writes: > >My boss sent this out to everyone at work, and I thought you guys might appriciate how funny this crap is. To make it a little on topic, we could be reminded of people being placed under the orb... though I am sure Dragaerans wouldn't be that stupid :o) Enjoy > >>______________________________________ >>Q: Can you describe the individual? >>A: He was about medium height and had a beard. >>Q: Was this a male or a female? >> But it is well known (or at least, I gather, somewhat widely believed) in the Empire that all Easterners can grow beards, even their women. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.' --Lord Falkland From dusty at sayersnet.com Mon Feb 7 14:31:45 2005 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:31:45 -0500 Subject: money! In-Reply-To: <4203A48E.6833.17E09B4@localhost> References: <4203A48E.6833.17E09B4@localhost> Message-ID: <4207EC51.7020405@sayersnet.com> My stickers arrived to-day, and I am quite pleased with them. I will have to install one on a bumper (possibly even my own) soon. Thanks v. much, Crystal! J A Dusty Sayers Michele Riccio wrote: >On 4 Feb 2005 at 12:52, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote > > > > >>Ok, guys, I've had the stickers for 2 weeks now and I have only seen a >>little over a 1/4 of the money. If there are trust issues, like >>thinking the stickers aren't real and I am going to scam you (don't >>worry, no one messed with my head and I am not goi ng to take of with >>the Jhereg treasury). I have gotten several replies from people who >>got the stickers. You won't get your stickers unless I have your >>money. I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but that $200 could go >>toward my wedding dress or somethin g (like stupid loans). Thank you >>all who sent your money already. If you lost my address, e-mail me and >>I'll give it to you. -C >> >> > >Just to toss my 2 cents in (so to speak). I got my stickers yesterday >and already I have one hanging in my office to cause consternation >among my co-workers. They are very cool. > >M Michele Riccio >mr1 at rcosta.com > > > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Tradition means giving a vote to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father.' --G K Chesterton From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 14:55:12 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:55:12 +0100 Subject: OT: but absolutly hysterical In-Reply-To: <4207EC00.6000604@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: >Reply-To: dusty at sayersnet.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: OT: but absolutly hysterical >Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:30:24 -0500 > >MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >>In a message dated 2/7/2005 10:19:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>Crystal.S.Fradette at Hitchcock.ORG (Crystal S. Fradette) writes: >> >>My boss sent this out to everyone at work, and I thought you guys might >>appriciate how funny this crap is. To make it a little on topic, we could >>be reminded of people being placed under the orb... though I am sure >>Dragaerans wouldn't be that stupid :o) Enjoy >> >>>______________________________________ >>>Q: Can you describe the individual? >>>A: He was about medium height and had a beard. >>>Q: Was this a male or a female? >>> > >But it is well known (or at least, I gather, somewhat widely believed) in >the Empire that all Easterners can grow beards, even their women. > >-- >J A Dusty Sayers > AND they're shorter than humans (with a certain definition of human ;)). Now we just need proof that they use axes a lot to know that they're dwarves. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 15:11:21 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:11:21 -0700 Subject: on contradictions and such References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Keegan" To: "Jeff G." ; "Philip Hart" ; Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: RE: on contradictions and such The bombs were nasty as I am former marine I understand the destruction. But what the Japanese did you the Korean woman and Nanking?) make us look like pacifists. True, I am not implying anything regarding the morality of using those weapons. I would have done the same, if I was in that position. What the Japanese did to any area of occupied Asia was horrifying, regardless of their treatment of POW's. But good old Iosif Dzhugashvili killed at least 20 million of his own people and we left him alone. I still wonder what the world would have been like if we had let Patton have his way and continue his drive north east. Jeff G. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Feb 7 15:53:07 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:53:07 -0600 Subject: OT: but absolutly hysterical In-Reply-To: References: <4207EC00.6000604@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: <20050207235307.GB4278@infodancer.org> On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 11:55:12PM +0100, Martin Wohlert wrote: > J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > >But it is well known (or at least, I gather, somewhat widely believed) in > >the Empire that all Easterners can grow beards, even their women. > AND they're shorter than humans (with a certain definition of human ;)). > Now we just need proof that they use axes a lot to know that they're > dwarves. Serioli are dwarves. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:06:28 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050208000628.74561.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Keegan wrote: > The bombs were nasty as I am former marine I understand the destruction. > But what the Japanese did you the Korean woman and Nanking?) make us > look like pacifists. However, the people killed by the bombs were almost certainly not those responsible for the Japanese atrocities. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 4:38 PM > To: Philip Hart; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: on contradictions and such > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Philip Hart" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:08 PM > Subject: Re: on contradictions and such > > > > > > > > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > > [some interesting stuff about history snipped] > > > > What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of > > the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? > > Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter > > were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) > > that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep > > him out of Japan. > > > > As I recall, the original justification for the firebombing of Tokyo was > that the Japanese industry was spread throughout many small "home" > workshops, making the type of directed attack used against the German > industry useless. Of course, I haven't studied this in detail for over > 15 > years, so there may be some information I have forgotten. As far as the > atomic bombs, well, I think it was multifaceted, a message to Stalin and > a > way to finish the war quickly. 1.6 million estimated US casualties if > the > home islands were invaded is the number that pops into my head, and that > was > based on the nasty island hopping fighting done on the way to Japan. To me, the question is what alternatives there were to dropping the bomb or invading. It's sometimes said that the Japanese might have surrendered conditionally, for example. But I don't know exactly how else it might have gone. > Also, > until you have seen the devestation that they wrecked upon a city, you > can > not comprehend how devestating those weapons are, regardless of how many > films you have seen of them expolding in the desert. That's one alternative, and I think you could make a good guess. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:09:09 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:09:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: lazy pronunciation In-Reply-To: <614D3FAF.29AD34A4.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050208000909.73918.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/4/2005 9:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard > Brazee" writes: > > >What does "youz" mean? It seems to be a New York thing, and I assumed > it > >meant "you" in the singular, but may be wrong. > > > > > > > I took it to mean "young ones" or some other from pertaing to "young." > To kid around, my fmily will say "yungyins" (meant to sound like onions > with a "g"). I think "yous" or "youse" or however you like to spell it is just a plural of "you". It means the same as "y'all" (a better spelling than "ya'll", in my opinion) in parts of the South, and "youns" or "yinz" or however you spell it in Pittsburgh and some other areas. "Youns" is for "you ones". I don't think any of these have to do with "young". However, "young 'uns" is for "young ones", and your family seems to have altered that a bit. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Feb 7 15:34:19 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:34:19 -0800 Subject: OT: but absolutly hysterical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0e5501c50d6d$8b9ce9c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >AND they're shorter than humans (with a certain definition of human ;)). Now >we just need proof that they use axes a lot to know that they're dwarves. Since the Elde Islanders/Greenairians already call Terran stock humans by the name Dwarves, we pretty much know that already. I wonder if Gimli had any Hungarian relatives... From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Feb 7 16:14:14 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:14:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: but absolutly hysterical Message-ID: <200502080014.j180EEam029636@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Scott Schultz wrote: > Since the Elde Islanders/Greenairians already call Terran stock humans by > the name Dwarves, we pretty much know that already. I wonder if Gimli had > any Hungarian relatives... Heh. If he did, they'd never admit to it. ;) Chris From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:26:14 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:26:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Review of _Tooth and Claw_ Message-ID: <20050208002614.80844.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> I recently read Jo Walton's _Tooth and Claw_, which is "What if dragons had such a biology that their females acted the way the women in Victorian novels act?" For instance, females have no claws. Also, while virgin they have gold scales--but if a lustful male comes too close, the female turns pink and is permanently ruined, unless he marries her. The reason I'm mentioning it is that there are comments from the narrator that reminded me *very* much of Paarfi. Maybe Walton has been reading Brust, or maybe they've both read Dumas, or something. However, I didn't think T&C was all that good. The Victorian dragons were fun, but I saw very little of the sly irony of Trollope (Walton's main model) or Austen. And somehow it seemed that Walton was deliberately making things less exciting. She didn't milk a deathbed scene the way the Victorians did, and she glossed over the fights, though she handled fighting so effectively in _The King's Peace_ and _The King's Name_. (I speak as a military non-expert.) The villain is nowhere near as despicable as a Dickens villain. So my rating is "okay, but not great". If you haven't read Walton, start with _The King's Peace_. But if you need a pompous-narrator fix... Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:35:40 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:35:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050203150422.GB13319@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jot Powers wrote: > On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 06:00:02AM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > > My wife, from St. Louis, refers to Warshington and Warsh. > > > > It's interesting that the West, where they are more a part of the > native > > culture, "rodeo" is pronounced as if it were an English word, but the > East > > is more likely to pronounce it as a Spanish word. > > The obvious counter examples to that include jalapeno and saguaro. > Although > my favorite requires the telling of a true story that I got second hand > from the person who experienced it first hand. > > This person worked for the NIH (National Institute of Health) in > Washington, > D.C. Now, in DC a lot of things tend to be political, and political > correctness is rampant. There was one particular lady who was > particularly > militant about that, and one day she decided to browse her "Network > Neighborhood" for reasons lost to obscurity. There she notices a > computer > that is named Jesus Saves. Now, working at a government agency in DC > this offends her, so she goes to my friend to track down who owns this. > He laughs and tells her he has other work to do, he might get to it > eventually. > This is not good enough for her, so she goes to his boss and causes a > ruckus. > Naturally, his boss comes and asks him to track it down. So he does > (this > requires him to determine the MAC address, track which switch it's > connected to so that they can trace the wiring to find the office). > They > do this and go to the office to talk to the person. The office of Jesus > Saves (Hay-zoos Sav-ez). I like it, but I don't believe it. Google has no relevant hits for "Pablo Saves", "Roberto Saves", "Pancho Saves", or "Paco Saves". (There are too many false positives to check "Juan Saves" [an incident from Byron] or "Pedro Saves" [Christmas].) So I doubt very much that "Saves" is a Spanish surname. By the way, since our resident native speaker of Spanish hasn't said anything, "Hay-soos Sav-es" would be closer. Speaking of Jose, here in New Mexico it can be hard to tell whether someone's last name is "Marquez" or "Marcus". Jerry Friedman is feeling picky. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Feb 7 16:38:39 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:38:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Man from Shemhaza Message-ID: <200502080038.j180cdam002753@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Steve, One word: BEAUTIFUL. If anyone hasn't read it, it's from the latest Thieves' World book. I highly recommend it--for Steve's story, if for nothing else. (Though there are some really good stories in there, Steve pulled a Gaimain and set the bar damn high. At least the editor didn't put his first, like Gaimain's "A Study in Emerald" in _Shadows Over Baker Street_.) Go, Steve! Impressed as usual, ChrisO "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Feb 7 16:38:57 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:38:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > I like it, but I don't believe it. Google has no relevant hits for > "Pablo Saves", "Roberto Saves", "Pancho Saves", or "Paco Saves". > (There are too many false positives to check "Juan Saves" [an > incident from Byron] or "Pedro Saves" [Christmas].) So I doubt very > much that "Saves" is a Spanish surname. Not in my experience, no, it isn't. It's an amusing anecdote, however, and all the more charming for being fictional, unlike the poor bugger who got in trouble for correctly using 'niggardly' in a sentence. pe From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 7 16:41:55 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:41:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Man from Shemhaza In-Reply-To: <200502080038.j180cdam002753@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200502080038.j180cdam002753@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > If anyone hasn't read it, it's from the latest Thieves' World book. > I highly recommend it--for Steve's story, if for nothing else. Will it make sense to those unfamiliar with the world? From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Feb 7 16:45:50 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:45:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Man from Shemhaza Message-ID: <200502080045.j180joam003518@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > If anyone hasn't read it, it's from the latest Thieves' World book. > > I highly recommend it--for Steve's story, if for nothing else. > > Will it make sense to those unfamiliar with the world? Yep. I've only read a couple of the old Thieves' World books myself. And it can also be read without having read the other stories in the book. (I was rather proud that I didn't jump straight to Steve's, but read the whole thing through.:) Still giggling in admiration, Chris From howard at brazee.net Mon Feb 7 17:05:22 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:05:22 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c50d7a$4470c6e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jerry Friedman wrote: > I like it, but I don't believe it. Google has no relevant hits for > "Pablo Saves", "Roberto Saves", "Pancho Saves", or "Paco Saves". > (There are too many false positives to check "Juan Saves" [an > incident from Byron] or "Pedro Saves" [Christmas].) So I doubt very > much that "Saves" is a Spanish surname. I remember an advertisement for The Bill Dana Show where he complained that a Fire Hose was a sign telling them to fire Jose Jimenez. I didn't think the joke worked back then. It's funny when an American says "His name isn't Jesus, it's Hey-Suz. Except Mexicans pronounce Jesus Christ the same way. It's odd that Anglos don't use the name Jesus. The most common given names in the world are Mary and Mohammed. Both have religious bases among their cultures. In Isaac Asimov's autobiography, he mentions when he was an infant immigrant, Brooklyn Jews urged his parents to change his name from the Jewish Isaac to something purely English such as Sydney or Bernie. In much of Europe this might have made sense, but the U.S. is a country that had a president named Abraham. Old-Testament names are *not* primarily considered Jewish. Some places "David" and "Jonathan" are primarily Jewish. > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Feb 7 12:53:25 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:53:25 -0800 Subject: The Man from Shemhaza In-Reply-To: <200502080038.j180cdam002753@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200502080038.j180cdam002753@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <1107809605.2781.93.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Thanks much. I reread it when the book came out, and aside from a couple little burps that the Scribblies would certainly have caught, I'm pretty happy with it. On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 16:38, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Steve, > > One word: BEAUTIFUL. > > > If anyone hasn't read it, it's from the latest > Thieves' World book. I highly recommend it--for > Steve's story, if for nothing else. (Though there > are some really good stories in there, Steve pulled > a Gaimain and set the bar damn high. At least the editor > didn't put his first, like Gaimain's "A Study in Emerald" > in _Shadows Over Baker Street_.) > > Go, Steve! > > Impressed as usual, > ChrisO > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > From lqmiller at ev1.net Mon Feb 7 09:30:25 2005 From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:30:25 -0600 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050207111844.018c8738@mail.ev1.net> At 11:51 AM 2/7/2005 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: >For a pretty good read on the topic, try 'At Dawn We Slept' by Gordon >Prange et. al. It's still in print after 14 years, which is no small >comment on it. If memory serves, Prange also absolves the base commander, >who was made a scapegoat for the attack. There were certianly failures >by others, but the base commander wasn't nearly as culpable as others up >the line. I'm a huge Prange fan. But I wouldn't say 'exonerated.' He clearly liked Admiral Kimmel and had sympathy for the fact that plenty of people were caught just as off balance by the surprise attack. But bottom line, the man got an official communique with the actual words "this message is to be considered a war warning" more than a week before Dec. 7. Bottom line: the man was in charge of a military fleet at an extremely forward military base. There was a very large war going on, even though the US was not yet involved. Who did he _think_ his fleet was out there to confront, New Zealand? Of the three commanders who got knocked around that day I have most sympathy for Kimmel. Though I'd still call it gross negligence to get blindsided like that. Measurably less sympathy for General Short and his nice neat rows of planes. Least sympathy of all for MacArthur, who was way way closer to Japan, had several hours warning that Pearl Harbor _had already been attacked,_ and still somehow managed to get caught with his planes on the ground. In some countries he'd've been shot for that one. Frankly I'm not sure why he wasn't. I can't imagine they could have predicted at that point what a good Shogun he'd make for occupied Japan several years later. Louann, who'd take Nimitz and his quiet games of horseshoes over the prima donna any day. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Feb 7 20:12:46 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:12:46 EST Subject: Today's cooking recipe for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: Today's cooking extract is from His Majesty's kitchen in Dragaera City: "which gave Khaavren the chance to make his way to His Majesty's kitchen, where he gorged himself in good style. The staff, we ought to say, looked upon him suspiciously, recalling the last time he had eaten there, but as he seemed, this time, to have no intention of collapsing before them, they eventually relaxed into their accustomed good humors. After finishing the meal (which consisted of bread and a large portion of certain cold fowl which had been prepared in the Elde Island manner, with a sauce of tart fruit and handshoot seeds)" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-seventh, page 414. From scs at di.org Mon Feb 7 21:48:54 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 00:48:54 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050208054854.GA22138@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:38:00PM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > From: "Philip Hart" > > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > > [some interesting stuff about history snipped] > > > > What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of > > the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? > > Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter > > were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) > > that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep > > him out of Japan. > As I recall, the original justification for the firebombing of Tokyo was > that the Japanese industry was spread throughout many small "home" > workshops, making the type of directed attack used against the German > industry useless. Of course, I haven't studied this in detail for over 15 > years, so there may be some information I have forgotten. As far as the > atomic bombs, well, I think it was multifaceted, a message to Stalin and a > way to finish the war quickly. 1.6 million estimated US casualties if the > home islands were invaded is the number that pops into my head, and that was > based on the nasty island hopping fighting done on the way to Japan. Also, > until you have seen the devestation that they wrecked upon a city, you can > not comprehend how devestating those weapons are, regardless of how many > films you have seen of them expolding in the desert. Unfortunately I just loaned the book out to a friend this weekend, so cannot look up the exact quote. General Curtis LeMay is quoted about the firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities in Richard Rhodes' "Dark Sun", a history of the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb and the politics which surrounded it. He says pretty much flat out that if the US had won the war, he'd have been executed as a war criminal. When considering the use of nuclear weapons, one needs to bear in mind that those making the decision didn't understand the long-term issues of fallout, the effect of the flash, etc, etc. They certianly expected something similar to the firebombing, tho, and the intent was exactly to cause the 'indiscrimate' destruction which resulted. The big difference was that the fission bomb was psychologically much more powerful because it was one, single, bomb. It let a single plane do what had previously required fleets of bombers - but the actual effect wasn't expected to be much different than the fleets of bombers. And the fleets of bombers were already doing that scale of damage or worse in civilian areas on a regular basis. For those who'd like to get a better feel for what the situation was like with respect to the lives saved or lost, I recommend "Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb" by George Feifer. The book is flawed, but will tell you in chilling detail the intensity of the Japanese resistance. As an example, more civilians died on Okinawa than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not because the actions of the US military targeted civilians, but because the Japanese military intermixed their installations with civilians, because the civilians freely formed self-defense corps. Schoolgirls practiced using sharpened bamboo stakes to resist the invasion; some committed mass suicide rather than surrender or be taken prisoner. Civilians strapped bombs to themselves and tried to enter US positions. And this was, by Japanese standards, a bunch of second-class citizens. There was every reason to expect that taking Japan itself would be harder, both on the US soldier and on the Japanese. The most common counter-arguement is that the Japanese were ready to surrender. There were certianly some Japanese officials who were sounding out the US about the possibility of same, but it wasn't clear then or now just how influential they were. As a counter-example, bear in mind that there were individuals in the Japanese military who considered assasinating the Emperor rather than surrender -- and that was *after* the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped. It was a dark time, and both sides did things that were beyond the pale. But we can learn from such things, as 'Tennozan' shows. The description of the 'war reunion' when survivors from both sides met many years later is one of the most moving you'll ever read. Steve -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Feb 8 01:39:43 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:39:43 -0600 Subject: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) References: <20050204215726.GD23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <20050208093943.GN23683@Durandal> On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 06:13:43PM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Whoa. A) Not all introverts are created alike. B) There is no reason that > any two people, whatever their personality makeup, have to enjoy the same > social situation. These are things where personal experience matters. I know both these things. It's getting my husband to recognize A) (I think he's mostly got a grasp on B) ) that's the problem. But it is still good to hear you say that.. I caught a lot of flak recently from some now-ex-friends because they thought I was being rabidly antisocial. > > So, a few questions for ya'll and everyone else on the list: > > There are some good personality 'tests' out there. Most of them don't call > themselves tests because they want to make sure that the subject doesn't > feel obligated to give the 'right' answers. There aren't universal right or > wrong answers to these questions. Rather, there are answers that are more > right for you. > > but there seems to be a lack of pertinent information online. > > Try looking for Myers-Briggs. I've done Meyers-Briggs and/or Keirsey (it was several years ago and the results seem to be in the same format); they are the only personality tests I've ever found of any worth - because they told me something about myself and human nature that I didn't already know. The J/P distinction - I am very heavily Perception, which means I don't schedule stuff or operate on a schedule unless absolutely necessary, and when I read I was at the far end of the spectrum, it was an epiphany. However, in the realm of introversion, M-B / K doesn't tell me anything I don't already know, and doesn't help convince my husband that all introverts are not alike in scope and intensity. All the discussions regarding E/I I can find just use black-and-white phrasing.. they don't discuss the differing degrees of each. An actual article by some sort of scientific entity on the latter is what I seek. Kat From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 7 15:40:16 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:40:16 -0000 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050207234021.DQWB15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff G. [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > Sent: 07 February 2005 23:11 > To: Brian Keegan; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: on contradictions and such > > True, I am not implying anything regarding the morality of using those > weapons. I would have done the same, if I was in that > position. What the Japanese did to any area of occupied Asia was horrifying, > regardless of their treatment of POW's. But good old Iosif Dzhugashvili > killed at least 20 million of his own people and we left him alone. I still > wonder what the world would have been like if we had let Patton have his way > and continue his drive north east. > > Jeff G. I won't say that nuking the two cities was the wrong thing to do, as it shortened the war and saved lives both Japanese and allied; however just because someone does something bad, is that justification for doing bad things as well? Just cos "They were nasty first!". Mark From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Feb 8 02:14:08 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 04:14:08 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 08:48:20AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Oh, by all means, I thought it was a great plan. And it does make sense. I > -just thought it was a great contradiction that defender starts the war. > -If you really think on it, and it just dawned on me the logic in that > -even as I type, it makes perfect sense. (Not to be a total nerd, but) In > -a video game I play, and NPCs will even suggest, if you taunt another > -NPC, they will attack you, and you are defending youself. You want them > -to attack you, so you don't got to prison for starting the fight. (Such a > -great game...) C Anyone on the list study aikido or something similar? For those who don't, aikido is based around the idea that you can use your attacker's energy (resources, whatever) against them instead of initiating your own attacks. A question I asked my sensei once when we were studying katana technique (one of the roots of aikido is how to survive in battlefield chaos when you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" Unfortunately he didn't answer my question - he was informally facing off against another student since he'd previously been demonstrating something, and he quickly (and gently) attacked the student, who of course didn't respond, as we do not have any kind of freeform sparring training with bokken. Opponent not of equal skill. Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? Kat From dar at horusinc.com Tue Feb 8 05:34:11 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 07:34:11 -0600 Subject: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) In-Reply-To: <20050208093943.GN23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <200502081334.j18DYCQP095016@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> >>I've done Meyers-Briggs and/or Keirsey (it was several years ago and the results seem to be in the same format); they are the only personality tests I've ever found of any worth - because they told me something about myself and human nature that I didn't already know. The J/P distinction - I am very heavily Perception, which means I don't schedule stuff or operate on a schedule unless absolutely necessary, and when I read I was at the far end of the spectrum, it was an epiphany. However, in the realm of introversion, M-B / K doesn't tell me anything I don't already know, and doesn't help convince my husband that all introverts are not alike in scope and intensity. All the discussions regarding E/I I can find just use black-and-white phrasing.. they don't discuss the differing degrees of each. An actual article by some sort of scientific entity on the latter is what I seek.<< Problem the 1st: The M-B is so generic that it's basically worthless for clinical work. Thus finding any sort of journal article is going to be difficult... Problem the 2nd: Finding access to PsychArticles (the APA database). Try either the local library or the local junior college where you can get access to the databases. That's the resource that you want to use. Problem the 3rd: If you want a more in-depth examination of an Introversion style in the format of a test then what you want is the NEO. This is also happens to be one of those tests that requires a Master's (it's a schedule B test) to administer and score, because they're the only ones who can buy it. It's a non-pathology based personality assessment tool based on 5-Factor trait theory. An excellent tool, and quite insightful. Here's a link to an online version of the NEO... http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/5/j5j/IPIP/ I've never used this and have no idea what the results even look like, I'm familiar with and have used the NEO PI-R & S. David From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Tue Feb 8 06:42:04 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:42:04 -0500 Subject: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) Message-ID: >On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 06:13:43PM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: >> >> Whoa. A) Not all introverts are created alike. B) There is no reason that >> any two people, whatever their personality makeup, have to enjoy the same >> social situation. These are things where personal experience matters. > >I know both these things. It's getting my husband to recognize A) (I think >he's mostly got a grasp on B) ) that's the problem. But it is still good to >hear you say that.. I caught a lot of flak recently from some now-ex-friends >because they thought I was being rabidly antisocial. > > >> > So, a few questions for ya'll and everyone else on the list: >> >> There are some good personality 'tests' out there. Most of them don't call >> themselves tests because they want to make sure that the subject doesn't >> feel obligated to give the 'right' answers. There aren't universal right or >> wrong answers to these questions. Rather, there are answers that are more >> right for you. > >> > but there seems to be a lack of pertinent information online. >> >> Try looking for Myers-Briggs. > > >I've done Meyers-Briggs and/or Keirsey (it was several years ago and the >results seem to be in the same format); they are the only personality tests >I've ever found of any worth - because they told me something about myself >and human nature that I didn't already know. The J/P distinction - I am >very heavily Perception, which means I don't schedule stuff or operate on a >schedule unless absolutely necessary, and when I read I was at the far end >of the spectrum, it was an epiphany. > >However, in the realm of introversion, M-B / K doesn't tell me anything I >don't already know, and doesn't help convince my husband that all introverts >are not alike in scope and intensity. All the discussions regarding E/I I >can find just use black-and-white phrasing.. they don't discuss the >differing degrees of each. An actual article by some sort of scientific >entity on the latter is what I seek. > delurking a moment (i believe that's the correct term) to add my two cents. i spent a significant amount of time studying general, developmental and abnormal psych in my undergrad years. the way most people use the terms introvert and extrovert isn't really accurate. it doesn't have anything to do with the way you interact with people, it has to do with how you recharge. at the end of a long day an introvert needs to get away from people to recharge, to de-stress, etc. for them being alone is not only NOT a problem, but is rather relaxing. they need quiet time away from most people to center themselves and calm down and get ready to face the world again. an extrovert is the exact opposite - being with people is how they recharge, de-stress, whatever. there is definitely a spectrum when dealing with introversion. at one end are the extreme introverts - most commonly referred to as hermits. =) at the other end there are introverts who love people and even spend time working with the public. i'm an introvert and i used to spend my summers at camp teaching little kids and teenagers how to ride horses. i dealt with staff, kids and parents all the time and i loved it. i just needed time to myself at some point during the day to relax my brain, spirit, emotions, how ever you want to say it, to keep myself from going crazy. i do this to this day - i always leave a day during the weekend to myself. if i don't get it i am much less likely to be able to handle stress during the following week (read: i become a raving lunatic at the drop of a hat). this often irritates my friends (and to be honest me too) but i know what i need in order to keep it together and that's a big part of it. example of an extrovert - my sister. she doesn't know what to do with herself without other people around - it stresses her out to spend too much time alone. she hits wit's end after a couple of hours. From scs at di.org Tue Feb 8 06:37:56 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:37:56 -0500 Subject: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) In-Reply-To: <20050208093943.GN23683@Durandal> References: <20050204215726.GD23683@Durandal> <20050208093943.GN23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <20050208143756.GA23370@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 03:39:43AM -0600, Tsarren wrote: > I've done Meyers-Briggs and/or Keirsey (it was several years ago and the > results seem to be in the same format); they are the only personality tests > I've ever found of any worth - because they told me something about myself > and human nature that I didn't already know . . . I've taken both M-B and Keirsey as well, and was quite surprised to find radically different results. I had occasion to discuss this with a professional in the field, and she said it's uncommon but not unusual. In one set of tests I was an 'individual contributor', ie, a person who worked largely on his own doing self-contained technical tasks (software development). In another, I was the director of R&D at a rapidly growing company. Her opinion was that I'd taken the tests 'in the role' of the position I was performing, and the results reflected my ability to play the role as much as any native personality traits. So take your own results with a grain of salt. Which, come to think of it, is a good idea with any personality inventory. Including simple introspection. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From mneme at io.com Tue Feb 8 07:14:57 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:14:57 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <16904.55153.487328.881215@fnord.io.com> Tsarren writes: >you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of >equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" >Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? Sure. As a fencer, well, yes, there is. Attacking allows you to frame the nature of the conflict, forcing your opponent into a specific set of responses (a largish set, but still smaller than those available when neither is attacking). It also allows the possibility of a a mistake that leads to the immediate end of the conflict (ie, a hit). Admitedly, at the same time, it commits a fair amount of energy to a single direction, and that energy can assuredly be turned against you...but since it's also something your opponent needs to deal with, the balance is on your side, assuming you have or can establish an initial advantage at the start of your attack. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From books at bofh.com Tue Feb 8 07:23:30 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:23:30 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> > Anyone on the list study aikido or something similar? For those who don't, > aikido is based around the idea that you can use your attacker's energy > (resources, whatever) against them instead of initiating your own attacks. > A question I asked my sensei once when we were studying katana technique > (one of the roots of aikido is how to survive in battlefield chaos when > you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of > equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" I don't study aikido, but my father does. :) I think we can delve into martial arts philosophy fairly quickly, and although interesting personally, might not be good overall list fodder. Other martial arts (I know Shotokan in particular) have the concept of "sen no sen" and "go no sen". Not being a Japanese speaker it is my understanding that that are typically incorrectly interpreted by novices as "offensive" and "defensive". The correct phrasing is pruportedly to "seize the initiative" and to "seize the intiative later". In general, I think what Steven is talking about is absolutely correct. It is much better to fight a defensive battle that you have initiated. It sounds counterintuitive, but is not. What it allows is for you to be prepared for you opponent to attack you in a way of your choosing, and thus in a way you to believe to be advantageous to you. This is typically done by preparing defensively and then goading the opponent into attacking you. Sethra says almost exactly this. She also says that the opponent can know this is your plan, but thinks they can overcome your perceived advantages. It is on this, that wars hinge. > Unfortunately he didn't answer my question - he was informally facing off > against another student since he'd previously been demonstrating something, > and he quickly (and gently) attacked the student, who of course didn't > respond, as we do not have any kind of freeform sparring training with > bokken. Opponent not of equal skill. IMO this is one of the critical problems with Aikido. Because it lacks offense, when training, it is virtually impossible for a practitioner to provide a competent offense for their opponent to defend against. I don't see a good answer to this, because it violates the fundamental aspects of aikido that I admire. The only thing that comes to mind is to pair up with a different martial art to allow competent attacks to be defended against. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Tue Feb 8 07:40:27 2005 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:40:27 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: Well I have taken hapkido, hwarng go and tai kwon do. In some cases it is better to attack first because you control distance and momentom.The bad side of tat is you cant really attack with out leaving your self open to a counter attack and you balance is messed up if you miss. 2 examples: I was sparing a young woman who is 3 belts higher then me but I outweighed her by allot and I came from another martial art. I used a back legged round kick (figured one kick and she is floored) she spun and back kicked me in the gut, even though I am bigger then her over 100 lbs) I was un able to continue another time I was sparring someone who was taller then me, we bowed once he stepped back I used the same kick. seeing as I was to close for him to kick me and he dealt with full power he keeled over. -----Original Message----- From: Tsarren [mailto:tsarren at alyra.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:14 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 08:48:20AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Oh, by all means, I thought it was a great plan. And it does make sense. I > -just thought it was a great contradiction that defender starts the war. > -If you really think on it, and it just dawned on me the logic in that > -even as I type, it makes perfect sense. (Not to be a total nerd, but) In > -a video game I play, and NPCs will even suggest, if you taunt another > -NPC, they will attack you, and you are defending youself. You want them > -to attack you, so you don't got to prison for starting the fight. (Such a > -great game...) C Anyone on the list study aikido or something similar? For those who don't, aikido is based around the idea that you can use your attacker's energy (resources, whatever) against them instead of initiating your own attacks. A question I asked my sensei once when we were studying katana technique (one of the roots of aikido is how to survive in battlefield chaos when you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" Unfortunately he didn't answer my question - he was informally facing off against another student since he'd previously been demonstrating something, and he quickly (and gently) attacked the student, who of course didn't respond, as we do not have any kind of freeform sparring training with bokken. Opponent not of equal skill. Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? Kat From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Feb 8 07:42:53 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:42:53 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <20050208154253.GC4278@infodancer.org> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 04:14:08AM -0600, Tsarren wrote: > On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 08:48:20AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > Oh, by all means, I thought it was a great plan. And it does make sense. I > > -just thought it was a great contradiction that defender starts the war. > > -If you really think on it, and it just dawned on me the logic in that > > -even as I type, it makes perfect sense. (Not to be a total nerd, but) In > > -a video game I play, and NPCs will even suggest, if you taunt another > > -NPC, they will attack you, and you are defending youself. You want them > > -to attack you, so you don't got to prison for starting the fight. (Such a > > -great game...) C > Anyone on the list study aikido or something similar? For those who don't, > aikido is based around the idea that you can use your attacker's energy > (resources, whatever) against them instead of initiating your own attacks. > A question I asked my sensei once when we were studying katana technique > (one of the roots of aikido is how to survive in battlefield chaos when > you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of > equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" This should be obvious. Of course a situation can be contrived such that attacking first provides a significant advantage. Consider an opponent who has received a temporarily disabling wound; do you strike to finish him off, or do you allow him to heal and face you at his full strength? Of course, Aikido stacks the deck by making an effort not to teach attacks, so that the person who tries this with only training in aikido may be undone by lack of skill despite his opponent's disadvantage. This of course does not apply to others with less pacifistic training. Similarly, in cases where a quick strike may result in a disabled or weakened opponent, attacking first may offer an advantage if you can cripple your opponent's response. That's the whole idea behind the lunge; if you skewer your opponent in one blow, with the advantage of surprise, and can duck back out of range before a response can be made, it's worth the risk of esposing yourself. Between two experienced fencers with a good defense, there may be no other way to end the bout. The same applies to larger-scale actions. Consider the cavalry charge; against an undisciplined or unprepared unit, it is devastating. The cavalry can come within range, strike a crippling blow, and retreat out of range before the opponent can regroup -- and then repeat the tactic elsewhere. But the advantage shifts to the defender if he can accurately predict and counter the attacker's strikes; such as with a disciplined pike square protecting crossbowmen... -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 8 10:02:52 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:02:52 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208154253.GC4278@infodancer.org> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208154253.GC4278@infodancer.org> Message-ID: I'm a fencer. Quite a bit of fencing strategy is in appearing to give your opponent an opening to attack while I am confident that I can not only parry the attack, but repose it into a win for me. Muhammad Ali was known for taunting his opponents, dropping his hands, and appearing vulnerable. When the opponent commits, he becomes vulnerable. I've seen Champ Bailey do the same thing in the NFL, purposefully backing away to make it look as though the receiver he was covering was more free than he really was. When he played for the first time in snow this year it didn't work as he was not quite able to close the gap as quickly as he thought. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 8 05:21:07 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 05:21:07 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> Message-ID: <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 07:23, Jot Powers wrote: > > Other martial arts (I know Shotokan in particular) have the concept > of "sen no sen" and "go no sen". Not being a Japanese speaker it > is my understanding that that are typically incorrectly interpreted > by novices as "offensive" and "defensive". The correct phrasing is > pruportedly to "seize the initiative" and to "seize the intiative later". > That's how I understand them, too. There is also "sen sen no sen," which would translate, I think, to, "seize the initiative a fraction of an instant before your opponent is about to." In kumite (sparring), I'm told that 60% of the points go the first attacker. This is sad for me because, intuitively, I'm a counterpuncher. Oh, well. The fact is, I never did anything but suck at kumite anyway. :-) In war, the advantage/disadvantage of the attack in a given battle depends on technology. The Napoleonic formation mave all the advantage to the attacker. Then the minnieball and associated technology gave it back to the defender. &tc. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 10:40:48 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:40:48 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Jot Powers" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:21 AM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) > > In war, the advantage/disadvantage of the attack in a given battle > depends on technology. The Napoleonic formation mave all the advantage > to the attacker. Then the minnieball and associated technology gave it > back to the defender. &tc. > To a point. The problem with quantifying combat is that there are too many variables. Yes, technology can be a factor, the British army stampeding through India and Africa are an example of this. But the determination of an enemy and his willingness to sacrifice troops is a factor as well, that can sometimes overwhelm a technological advantage, as in Vietnam and Afghanistan (vs. anyone but the US). Discipline as well can be decisive, but that can be overcome by superior tactics (the US Revolutionary War). The will to win is perhaps the most decisive thing, but impossible to measure until tested in battle. In my personal experience, the three tactics I find most effective: a swift feint to draw your opponent out, all out attack to overwhelm him quickly, and third, shoot him before he comes into striking distance. Jeff G. From ballistica at cox.net Tue Feb 8 10:42:16 2005 From: ballistica at cox.net (Donna) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:42:16 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <003901c50e0d$e9ad2750$6501a8c0@jupiter> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" "In kumite (sparring), I'm told that 60% of the points go the first attacker. This is sad for me because, intuitively, I'm a counterpuncher. Oh, well. The fact is, I never did anything but suck at kumite anyway. :-)" In competition sparring, the point goes to the person who lands the first "good strike", which means the first strike that actually looks like it would have hurt (transferred some momentum, caused the target to move due to impact, etc), and is visible by a majority of the judges. The person who moves first takes the advantage by catching all of the judges' attention - even if they're not being biased, the aggressor is the person judges subconsciously watch during an exchange. Not to mention that acting is faster than reacting, so the first person to move has the edge there too. In this case the best defense is definitely a good offense, because kumite is largely a high-impact version of tag. On the other hand, if you're NOT point sparring, and are just sparring, everyone is going to get hit eventually, and it matters somewhat less who gets hit first. It matters who gets hit most. Counterpunch away. And then there's self-defense, which is different again. That's a case of who gets injured first. A finger in the eye pretty much wins there. If the attacker is kind enough to bring his eye closer to your finger, well, thanks so much. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Feb 8 10:43:13 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:43:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: @> Oh, by all means, I thought it was a great plan. And it does make @> sense. I just thought it was a great contradiction that defender starts @> the war. If you really think on it, and it just dawned on me the logic @> in that even as I type, it makes perfect sense. (Not to be a total @> nerd, but) In a video game I play, and NPCs will even suggest, if you @> taunt another NPC, they will attack you, and you are defending youself. @> You want them to attack you, so you don't got to prison for starting @> the fight. (Such a great game...) If you are not thinking of Morrowind, I'd be quite surprised. From books at bofh.com Tue Feb 8 10:56:04 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:56:04 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050208185604.GA18995@bofh.com> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 05:21:07AM -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 07:23, Jot Powers wrote: > > > > > Other martial arts (I know Shotokan in particular) have the concept > > of "sen no sen" and "go no sen". Not being a Japanese speaker it > > is my understanding that that are typically incorrectly interpreted > > by novices as "offensive" and "defensive". The correct phrasing is > > pruportedly to "seize the initiative" and to "seize the intiative later". > > That's how I understand them, too. There is also "sen sen no sen," > which would translate, I think, to, "seize the initiative a fraction of > an instant before your opponent is about to." Hm...I was told that "sen sen no sen" was to "seize the initiative and never let it go". My father (also not a Japanese speaker, but took some classes) said that in general the repetition of a word, "sen sen" in this case, indicates an emphasis. If this is true I think the "never let it go" interpretation seems more likely. Now we just need a Japanese speaker to tell us we're both FOS. :) I'm my experience, when seeing something that was described as "sen sen no sen" it meant that the person was continously attacking with no let up until the opponent was overwhelmed, or they failed due the better execution of "go no sen" by the "defender". :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 11:06:43 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:06:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > If you are not thinking of Morrowind, I'd be quite surprised. No, the game being described sounded like it was actually fun, so that rules Morrowind out. pe From mneme at io.com Tue Feb 8 11:07:17 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:07:17 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <003901c50e0d$e9ad2750$6501a8c0@jupiter> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <003901c50e0d$e9ad2750$6501a8c0@jupiter> Message-ID: <16905.3557.612437.351628@fnord.io.com> Donna writes: >even if they're not being biased, the aggressor is the person judges >subconsciously watch during an exchange. Interesting. Traditionally, in fencing (pre-electric), specific judges are assigned to watch specific fencers, and cannot call points on the other fencer, so there may be less of this effect. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From ballistica at cox.net Tue Feb 8 11:41:29 2005 From: ballistica at cox.net (Donna) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:41:29 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com><20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal><20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com><1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net><003901c50e0d$e9ad2750$6501a8c0@jupiter> <16905.3557.612437.351628@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <000901c50e16$2fbef400$6501a8c0@jupiter> "----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Kronengold" Donna writes: >even if they're not being biased, the aggressor is the person judges >subconsciously watch during an exchange. Interesting. Traditionally, in fencing (pre-electric), specific judges are assigned to watch specific fencers, and cannot call points on the other fencer, so there may be less of this effect." This is definitely true. I did think that was one of the cooler parts about tournament fencing. One judge watches the back of one fencer, another judge watches the front, and then two judges for the other fencer and one in the middle. The judge in the middle watches the fencers and the other judges, and that's how they determine who strikes first. As a corner judge, if your guy gets poked, you raise your hand. It wouldn't work quite as well in a karate tournament because the competitors get to move around so much. In tournament fencing, they're stuck moving back and forth on a line, so even a novice can corner judge pretty easily. The main judge has to know what he's doing, though. But due to the fact that the judges are only watching one person or the other, the aggressor doesn't always take the point. There's a bit of a strategy to working the judges in tournament karate. There are either three or five judges (corner judges and a center judge), and they can all move around to see better. The corner judges work the perimeter and the center judge controls things and is in the ring with the fighters. They can all call a point on either opponent. Even if you get hit hard enough to move you back two feet, they can't call a point unless they see a weapon hitting a target, just like in fencing. But the center judge can't get as close to the fighters in karate as he can in fencing - in fencing they're going to stay on their line, but in sparring you might get run over if you're too close. So in karate, it's always possible to obscure your targets from a majority of the judges by turning your back to the center judge. Because he's further away, he can't see the targets on the backside as well, so he can't call those points. This reduces the number of targets your opponent can score on. You can punch someone in the solar plexus five times, or kick them in the groin and double them over, but if they have their back to the center judge, you ain't winning. I personally loathe tournament sparring - but it's fun to watch. From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 11:41:52 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:41:52 -0600 Subject: An Effinger Epiphany Message-ID: I had read a one-off novel sometime during the mid-80s by an author I knew nothing about. The author is George Alec Effinger and the work was a futuristic noir piece with an arabic flair about a sort of gumshoe in a sort of a sort French Quarter of New Orleans section of a nameless Arabic city in the twenty-second century. The style is what we now might call cyberpunk, a desgination the author hotly denied, even though he is considered one of the fathers of the cyberpunk genre. The novel was "When Gravity Fails" and I remember thinking it was very uneven, kind of depressing, and wildly original. I liked it immediately, warts and all. I had hoped to read more from this author, but alas, never tracked down anything else by him. Until now. A buddy at work showed me a book he was reading by an author I hadn't heard of. I opened the flap and saw three author blurbs. I recognized two of the three and mentioned that Zelazny and Effinger were both dead now. That's when it occurred to me that I didn't know how I knew that latter bit, so I went searching around a little. I found the book of his that I remember reading nearly 20 years ago, "When Gravity Fails": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/055325555X/002-3554094-2083216 I even found a review of it that captures something of the feeling I remember: http://members.aol.com/dmchess/www/gravity.html But then I read the following blurb and got all aquiver: "George Alec Effinger wrote three books about Marid Audran, a private investigator living in the Budayeen, the red light district of an unnamed Arab country in the 23rd century (but in actuality modeled on the French quarter in New Orleans, where Effinger lived). When Gravity Fails is the first of the three books, which introduce us to Marid, who was raised in Algeria by his mother, an Algerian prostitute, and who never knew his French father. Considered a barbarian north african by the Arabs in his city, Marid lives on the fringes among the drug dealers and users, and the strippers, protitutes, sex changes and outcasts that live just outside the law, working as a private detective when he can find a client. Marid prides himself on being unwired, that is, unlike most residents of the Budayeen, Marid has not adapted his brain to accept personality modules, or Moddies, or add-ons, better known as Daddies. Nor does Marid work or live under the largesse or protection of Friedlander Bey, better known as Papa, who controls most the business, legitimate or otherwise, in the Budayeen. When a client is killed in front of Marid's eyes and Marid's acquaintances start dying horrible deaths, Marid is drawn into an uneasy alliance with both the police, whom he does not trust, and Papa, to whom he does not want to be beholden. Effinger has created a world that is unlike most science fiction books, keeping the actual science light, and letting us believe that this is how the Arab world might be in the 23rd century, with not much changed except a bit of technology. Effinger offers both an interesting who and why-dunnit, while examining the issues of faith and identity. Is Marid, a heavy drug and alcohol user who lives by his own code and is committed neither to Allah nor any other human, the faithful one, or is it Papa, who kills and extorts in the name of business but who faithfully prays 5 times a day? What is it like to be an outsider, and how do you find yourself? This book is sadly out of print, but easily available used on the internet. Still compelling after all this time and well worth tracking down." /Three/ books?! I officially know what I want for my next birthday - used books: "When Gravity Fails" http://tinyurl.com/6gpge "A Fire in the Sun" http://tinyurl.com/5rtb5 "The Exile Kiss" http://tinyurl.com/5c59e By all accounts, it appears Effinger died before he was able to write a fourth book in the series, "Retribution". A book of Effinger's short stories entitled "Buyadeen Nights" was apparently published last year with introductions from his wife, author Barbara Hambly: http://tinyurl.com/6akct -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 11:42:18 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 14:42:18 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <4209161A.7010002@earthlink.net> Gomi no Sensei wrote: >On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > > > >>If you are not thinking of Morrowind, I'd be quite surprised. >> >> > >No, the game being described sounded like it was actually fun, so that >rules Morrowind out. > > I was thinking Baldur's Gate or BGII; but it turns out it was Morrowind after all. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Feb 8 11:45:55 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:45:55 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <16905.3557.612437.351628@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <200502081946.j18JjuTi000773@smtp.ucsd.edu> But even in pre-electric fencing (foil anyway), the point goes to the person who has "the line", who establishes or has priority in a sequence. So the pereson who lunges will usually win the point against the person who stop-hits them at the same time, because the judge sees the attacker establishing the line first, regardless of which light comes on first. > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Kronengold [mailto:mneme at io.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:07 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on > contradictions and such) > > Donna writes: > >even if they're not being biased, the aggressor is the person judges > >subconsciously watch during an exchange. > > Interesting. Traditionally, in fencing (pre-electric), > specific judges are assigned to watch specific fencers, and > cannot call points on the other fencer, so there may be less > of this effect. > > -- > Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ > _,,,--,,_ ,) > --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick > /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' > /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- > ) )-,_ ) /\ > /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax > '---''(_/--' (_/-' > > From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 11:55:21 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:55:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: An Effinger Epiphany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Johne Cook wrote: > The novel was "When Gravity Fails" and I remember thinking it was very > uneven, kind of depressing, and wildly original. I liked it > immediately, warts and all. I had hoped to read more from this > author, but alas, never tracked down anything else by him. Oh, man, are you in for a treat. Those are three of my most treasured books. Everything you said about them goes. Marid and the Budayeen are an amazing, vibrant place, and Effinger's early death was a sore loss for the genre. The parable that the Prophet (peace be unto him) tells Marid about his moment of greatest danger is among my favorite moments in the series. pe From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 11:58:07 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:58:07 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: "Just to throw some more confusion into the mix," (Issola pg. unknown-AFB) The 10 securities: Distance, Guard, Posture, Movement, Change, Flack, Rhythm, Stance, Weight, Aggression. Richard King, Grandmaster, Kiado-Ryu James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >From: Matthew Hunter >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) >Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:42:53 -0600 > >On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 04:14:08AM -0600, Tsarren >wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 08:48:20AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > Oh, by all means, I thought it was a great plan. And it does make >sense. I > > > -just thought it was a great contradiction that defender starts the >war. > > > -If you really think on it, and it just dawned on me the logic in that > > > -even as I type, it makes perfect sense. (Not to be a total nerd, but) >In > > > -a video game I play, and NPCs will even suggest, if you taunt another > > > -NPC, they will attack you, and you are defending youself. You want >them > > > -to attack you, so you don't got to prison for starting the fight. >(Such a > > > -great game...) C > > Anyone on the list study aikido or something similar? For those who >don't, > > aikido is based around the idea that you can use your attacker's energy > > (resources, whatever) against them instead of initiating your own >attacks. > > A question I asked my sensei once when we were studying katana technique > > (one of the roots of aikido is how to survive in battlefield chaos when > > you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of > > equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" > >This should be obvious. Of course a situation can be contrived >such that attacking first provides a significant advantage. >Consider an opponent who has received a temporarily disabling >wound; do you strike to finish him off, or do you allow him to >heal and face you at his full strength? > >Of course, Aikido stacks the deck by making an effort not to >teach attacks, so that the person who tries this with only >training in aikido may be undone by lack of skill despite his >opponent's disadvantage. This of course does not apply to others >with less pacifistic training. > >Similarly, in cases where a quick strike may result in a disabled >or weakened opponent, attacking first may offer an advantage if >you can cripple your opponent's response. That's the whole idea >behind the lunge; if you skewer your opponent in one blow, >with the advantage of surprise, and can duck back out of >range before a response can be made, it's worth the risk of >esposing yourself. Between two experienced fencers with a good >defense, there may be no other way to end the bout. > >The same applies to larger-scale actions. Consider the cavalry >charge; against an undisciplined or unprepared unit, it is >devastating. The cavalry can come within range, strike a >crippling blow, and retreat out of range before the opponent can >regroup -- and then repeat the tactic elsewhere. But the >advantage shifts to the defender if he can accurately predict and >counter the attacker's strikes; such as with a disciplined pike >square protecting crossbowmen... > >-- >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) >Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt >Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp >Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From mneme at io.com Tue Feb 8 12:27:11 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:27:11 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <200502081946.j18JjuTi000773@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <16905.3557.612437.351628@fnord.io.com> <200502081946.j18JjuTi000773@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <16905.8351.902334.559555@fnord.io.com> Shawn Burns writes: >But even in pre-electric fencing (foil anyway), the point goes to the person >who has "the line", who establishes or has priority in a sequence. Of course. Well, sort of (and amounts to the same thing) The point (in actual pre-electric fencing) goes to the one who made the last non-suicidal attack. So attack-parry-remise (replacement of the point) simultaneous with riposte will go to the defender (with a riposte), not the attacker (who failed to deal with the defender's response before finishing his or her attack), wheras attack-parry(insufficient)-riposte will go to the attacker for obvious reasons, and attack-parry-pause-instence of the attack-late riposte could go either way (since neither has priority once the defender fails to riposte immediately, and the attacker is valid in instistence at that point). And an attack against an extended point will (and should be) awarded against the attacker -- since the extended point, not dealt with, established priority. I tend to think of it as "the point goes against the one who made the -last- mistake, causing a double-touch". I'm told, however, that lazy (or with, shall we say, a different interpretation of the rule) directors in modern (post electric) fencing tend to give the point to the initial attacker in a sequence, sometimes regardless of the phrase, which can go too fast to see, even if, as you say, a stop hit landed (or was established) a time ahead of, say, an attack with an unextended arm. >So the pereson who lunges will usually win the point against the >person who stop-hits them at the same time, because the judge sees >the attacker establishing the line first, regardless of which light >comes on first. And regardless of who actually established a valid attack (ie, priority) first, true, though I get the impression it's gotten worse since electric equipment became standard, for a number of reasons. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 8 12:32:03 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:32:03 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: <5BDBFA71.7B15053E.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/8/2005 2:06:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gomi no Sensei writes: >On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > >> If you are not thinking of Morrowind, I'd be quite surprised. > >No, the game being described sounded like it was actually fun, so that >rules Morrowind out. > >pe > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. -C From mneme at io.com Tue Feb 8 12:33:14 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:33:14 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <000901c50e16$2fbef400$6501a8c0@jupiter> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <003901c50e0d$e9ad2750$6501a8c0@jupiter> <16905.3557.612437.351628@fnord.io.com> <000901c50e16$2fbef400$6501a8c0@jupiter> Message-ID: <16905.8714.108762.385953@fnord.io.com> Donna writes: >From: "Joshua Kronengold" writes: >>Interesting. Traditionally, in fencing (pre-electric), specific >>judges are assigned to watch specific fencers, and cannot call points >>on the other fencer, so there may be less of this effect." >This is definitely true. I did think that was one of the cooler parts about >tournament fencing. One judge watches the back of one fencer, another judge >watches the front, and then two judges for the other fencer and one in the >middle. The one in the middle is a "director", fwiw -- they only get half a point (or is it one and a half? Not enough to override both judges, in any case) for judging whether attacks are valid, but have full discression on the conduct of the bout and right of way (priority). >guy gets poked, you raise your hand. It wouldn't work quite as well in a >karate tournament because the competitors get to move around so much. Actually, I've done judging at a rapier tournament that was modeled off of classical rules (ie, pre-electric fencing), and it worked ok -- the judges needed to move a bit to stay to the back of "their" fencers, but could usually manage ok. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 12:33:35 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:33:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: <5BDBFA71.7B15053E.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <5BDBFA71.7B15053E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" "OUTLANDER" "OUTLANDER" "OUTLANDER" "SCREEEECH" <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> pe yes, fun From everbard at ix.netcom.com Tue Feb 8 12:36:07 2005 From: everbard at ix.netcom.com (Michael M Jones) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:36:07 -0500 Subject: An Effinger Epiphany References: Message-ID: <001301c50e1d$d1f43490$0201a8c0@Penelope> Golden Gryphon Press did, indeed, rerelease one of Effinger's books. http://www.goldengryphon.com/budayeen-frame.html Check it out. :> -Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" To: "Dragaera list" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:41 PM Subject: An Effinger Epiphany >I had read a one-off novel sometime during the mid-80s by an author I > knew nothing about. The author is George Alec Effinger and the work > was a futuristic noir piece with an arabic flair about a sort of > gumshoe in a sort of a sort French Quarter of New Orleans section of a > nameless Arabic city in the twenty-second century. The style is what > we now might call cyberpunk, a desgination the author hotly denied, > even though he is considered one of the fathers of the cyberpunk > genre. > > The novel was "When Gravity Fails" and I remember thinking it was very > uneven, kind of depressing, and wildly original. I liked it > immediately, warts and all. I had hoped to read more from this > author, but alas, never tracked down anything else by him. > > Until now. > > A buddy at work showed me a book he was reading by an author I hadn't > heard of. I opened the flap and saw three author blurbs. I > recognized two of the three and mentioned that Zelazny and Effinger > were both dead now. > > That's when it occurred to me that I didn't know how I knew that > latter bit, so I went searching around a little. > > I found the book of his that I remember reading nearly 20 years ago, > "When Gravity Fails": > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/055325555X/002-3554094-2083216 > > I even found a review of it that captures something of the feeling I > remember: > http://members.aol.com/dmchess/www/gravity.html > > But then I read the following blurb and got all aquiver: > "George Alec Effinger wrote three books about Marid Audran, a private > investigator living in the Budayeen, the red light district of an > unnamed Arab country in the 23rd century (but in actuality modeled on > the French quarter in New Orleans, where Effinger lived). When Gravity > Fails is the first of the three books, which introduce us to Marid, > who was raised in Algeria by his mother, an Algerian prostitute, and > who never knew his French father. Considered a barbarian north african > by the Arabs in his city, Marid lives on the fringes among the drug > dealers and users, and the strippers, protitutes, sex changes and > outcasts that live just outside the law, working as a private > detective when he can find a client. Marid prides himself on being > unwired, that is, unlike most residents of the Budayeen, Marid has not > adapted his brain to accept personality modules, or Moddies, or > add-ons, better known as Daddies. Nor does Marid work or live under > the largesse or protection of Friedlander Bey, better known as Papa, > who controls most the business, legitimate or otherwise, in the > Budayeen. > > When a client is killed in front of Marid's eyes and Marid's > acquaintances start dying horrible deaths, Marid is drawn into an > uneasy alliance with both the police, whom he does not trust, and > Papa, to whom he does not want to be beholden. > > Effinger has created a world that is unlike most science fiction > books, keeping the actual science light, and letting us believe that > this is how the Arab world might be in the 23rd century, with not much > changed except a bit of technology. Effinger offers both an > interesting who and why-dunnit, while examining the issues of faith > and identity. Is Marid, a heavy drug and alcohol user who lives by his > own code and is committed neither to Allah nor any other human, the > faithful one, or is it Papa, who kills and extorts in the name of > business but who faithfully prays 5 times a day? What is it like to be > an outsider, and how do you find yourself? > > This book is sadly out of print, but easily available used on the > internet. Still compelling after all this time and well worth tracking > down." > > /Three/ books?! > > I officially know what I want for my next birthday - used books: > > "When Gravity Fails" > http://tinyurl.com/6gpge > > "A Fire in the Sun" > http://tinyurl.com/5rtb5 > > "The Exile Kiss" > http://tinyurl.com/5c59e > > By all accounts, it appears Effinger died before he was able to write > a fourth book in the series, "Retribution". > > A book of Effinger's short stories entitled "Buyadeen Nights" was > apparently published last year with introductions from his wife, > author Barbara Hambly: > http://tinyurl.com/6akct > > -- > johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From everbard at ix.netcom.com Tue Feb 8 12:39:05 2005 From: everbard at ix.netcom.com (Michael M Jones) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:39:05 -0500 Subject: An Effinger Epiphany References: <001301c50e1d$d1f43490$0201a8c0@Penelope> Message-ID: <000401c50e1e$3b471890$0201a8c0@Penelope> Oh, and I forgot this one, coming out in May: http://www.goldengryphon.com/forth.html#gae2 I've been really impressed so far with Golden Gryphon's products. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael M Jones" To: "Dragaera list" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 3:36 PM Subject: Re: An Effinger Epiphany > Golden Gryphon Press did, indeed, rerelease one of Effinger's books. > http://www.goldengryphon.com/budayeen-frame.html > > Check it out. :> > > -Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Johne Cook" > To: "Dragaera list" > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:41 PM > Subject: An Effinger Epiphany > > >>I had read a one-off novel sometime during the mid-80s by an author I >> knew nothing about. The author is George Alec Effinger and the work >> was a futuristic noir piece with an arabic flair about a sort of >> gumshoe in a sort of a sort French Quarter of New Orleans section of a >> nameless Arabic city in the twenty-second century. The style is what >> we now might call cyberpunk, a desgination the author hotly denied, >> even though he is considered one of the fathers of the cyberpunk >> genre. >> >> The novel was "When Gravity Fails" and I remember thinking it was very >> uneven, kind of depressing, and wildly original. I liked it >> immediately, warts and all. I had hoped to read more from this >> author, but alas, never tracked down anything else by him. >> >> Until now. >> >> A buddy at work showed me a book he was reading by an author I hadn't >> heard of. I opened the flap and saw three author blurbs. I >> recognized two of the three and mentioned that Zelazny and Effinger >> were both dead now. >> >> That's when it occurred to me that I didn't know how I knew that >> latter bit, so I went searching around a little. >> >> I found the book of his that I remember reading nearly 20 years ago, >> "When Gravity Fails": >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/055325555X/002-3554094-2083216 >> >> I even found a review of it that captures something of the feeling I >> remember: >> http://members.aol.com/dmchess/www/gravity.html >> >> But then I read the following blurb and got all aquiver: >> "George Alec Effinger wrote three books about Marid Audran, a private >> investigator living in the Budayeen, the red light district of an >> unnamed Arab country in the 23rd century (but in actuality modeled on >> the French quarter in New Orleans, where Effinger lived). When Gravity >> Fails is the first of the three books, which introduce us to Marid, >> who was raised in Algeria by his mother, an Algerian prostitute, and >> who never knew his French father. Considered a barbarian north african >> by the Arabs in his city, Marid lives on the fringes among the drug >> dealers and users, and the strippers, protitutes, sex changes and >> outcasts that live just outside the law, working as a private >> detective when he can find a client. Marid prides himself on being >> unwired, that is, unlike most residents of the Budayeen, Marid has not >> adapted his brain to accept personality modules, or Moddies, or >> add-ons, better known as Daddies. Nor does Marid work or live under >> the largesse or protection of Friedlander Bey, better known as Papa, >> who controls most the business, legitimate or otherwise, in the >> Budayeen. >> >> When a client is killed in front of Marid's eyes and Marid's >> acquaintances start dying horrible deaths, Marid is drawn into an >> uneasy alliance with both the police, whom he does not trust, and >> Papa, to whom he does not want to be beholden. >> >> Effinger has created a world that is unlike most science fiction >> books, keeping the actual science light, and letting us believe that >> this is how the Arab world might be in the 23rd century, with not much >> changed except a bit of technology. Effinger offers both an >> interesting who and why-dunnit, while examining the issues of faith >> and identity. Is Marid, a heavy drug and alcohol user who lives by his >> own code and is committed neither to Allah nor any other human, the >> faithful one, or is it Papa, who kills and extorts in the name of >> business but who faithfully prays 5 times a day? What is it like to be >> an outsider, and how do you find yourself? >> >> This book is sadly out of print, but easily available used on the >> internet. Still compelling after all this time and well worth tracking >> down." >> >> /Three/ books?! >> >> I officially know what I want for my next birthday - used books: >> >> "When Gravity Fails" >> http://tinyurl.com/6gpge >> >> "A Fire in the Sun" >> http://tinyurl.com/5rtb5 >> >> "The Exile Kiss" >> http://tinyurl.com/5c59e >> >> By all accounts, it appears Effinger died before he was able to write >> a fourth book in the series, "Retribution". >> >> A book of Effinger's short stories entitled "Buyadeen Nights" was >> apparently published last year with introductions from his wife, >> author Barbara Hambly: >> http://tinyurl.com/6akct >> >> -- >> johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 8 07:38:11 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 07:38:11 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <1107877091.2781.139.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Just to be clear, when I said, "technology" I was also including discoveries in tactics; Napoleon, to give the classic example, didn't have any weapon drastically different from his predecessors, but he formed his columns in a new way. I consider that an advance in technology. On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 10:40, Jeff G. wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brust" > To: "Jot Powers" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:21 AM > Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) > > > > > > > In war, the advantage/disadvantage of the attack in a given battle > > depends on technology. The Napoleonic formation mave all the advantage > > to the attacker. Then the minnieball and associated technology gave it > > back to the defender. &tc. > > > To a point. The problem with quantifying combat is that there are too many > variables. Yes, technology can be a factor, the British army stampeding > through India and Africa are an example of this. But the determination of an > enemy and his willingness to sacrifice troops is a factor as well, that can > sometimes overwhelm a technological advantage, as in Vietnam and Afghanistan > (vs. anyone but the US). Discipline as well can be decisive, but that can be > overcome by superior tactics (the US Revolutionary War). The will to win is > perhaps the most decisive thing, but impossible to measure until tested in > battle. > > In my personal experience, the three tactics I find most effective: a swift > feint to draw your opponent out, all out attack to overwhelm him quickly, > and third, shoot him before he comes into striking distance. > > Jeff G. > From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Tue Feb 8 12:42:20 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:42:20 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] > > On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for > Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. > > "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" > "OUTLANDER" > "OUTLANDER" > "OUTLANDER" > > "SCREEEECH" > > <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> > > pe > yes, fun All games have flaws. I always hated the dialog system myself. The repetitive voices and constant cliff racer attacks and generally suicidal to a fault enemies are oversights on the designers' part. Admittedly painfully annoying oversights, but not nearly as bad as the cancer that is the system of dialog based on keywords. Personally, I'm holding out for Fallout 3. Or perhaps that should be praying. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 8 07:40:44 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 07:40:44 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208185604.GA18995@bofh.com> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050208185604.GA18995@bofh.com> Message-ID: <1107877244.2781.143.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> On Tue, 2005-02-08 at 10:56, Jot Powers wrote: > > Hm...I was told that "sen sen no sen" was to "seize the initiative > and never let it go". The really is interesting. Bearing in mind that my instructor (Sensei Fusaro, then 6th Dan, JKA) was a white guy, and that this was years ago, there are plenty of chances for confusion to slip in; but I'm fairly sure that what we were taught as sen sen no sen involved finding the moment when one's opponent was about to attack, but before he had actually begun. Strange. From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 12:43:30 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:43:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: > Personally, I'm holding out for Fallout 3. Or perhaps that should be > praying. AMEN WITH BARBECUE SAUCE. Preach it! (sways and hums) pe From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Tue Feb 8 12:50:53 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:50:53 +0100 Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050208205031.GA65517@weller-fahy.com> * Gomi no Sensei [2005-02-08 21:44 +0100]: > On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: > > > Personally, I'm holding out for Fallout 3. Or perhaps that should be > > praying. > > AMEN WITH BARBECUE SAUCE. > > Preach it! > > (sways and hums) Here's another Amen... I was addicted to that game for far too long. ;] And did I mention that old games are cheap? Fallout and Fallout 2, in one box: $1.95 (US) (lost mine in the move, and had to get a 'Comfort Game' fix). Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Tue Feb 8 12:51:40 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:51:40 +0100 Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050208205118.GB65517@weller-fahy.com> * Gomi no Sensei [2005-02-08 21:44 +0100]: ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^ BTW - does that mean 'Master of Junk/Trash'? Just wondering. Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Feb 8 13:02:00 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:02:00 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <16904.55153.487328.881215@fnord.io.com> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <16904.55153.487328.881215@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20050208210200.GR23683@Durandal> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 09:14:57AM -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > As a fencer, well, yes, there is. Attacking allows you to frame the > nature of the conflict, forcing your opponent into a specific set of > responses (a largish set, but still smaller than those available when > neither is attacking). It also allows the possibility of a a mistake > that leads to the immediate end of the conflict (ie, a hit). I forgot to mention in my post that I've done some SCA-type fencing. I was overjoyed when I got my first real feint to work. I faked throwing a shot up the middle, my opponent parried, and then I threw a real shot up the middle that hit. I think that was my first experience against a human in any game/sport where I feinted an attack with the intent to provoke a *specific* response (and had it work). Kat From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 8 13:01:38 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:01:38 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: <3224D153.4E091C41.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/8/2005 3:42:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Grady Brandt writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] >> >> "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" >> "OUTLANDER" >> "OUTLANDER" >> "OUTLANDER" >> >> "SCREEEECH" >> **MUTE** >> <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> >> Health cheat is the best way to go. There also ways to "God Mode" your character as well (I don't, but I love the health cheat) >> pe >> yes, fun > >All games have flaws. I always hated the dialog system myself. The >repetitive voices and constant cliff racer attacks and generally suicidal to >a fault enemies are oversights on the designers' part. Admittedly painfully >annoying oversights, but not nearly as bad as the cancer that is the system >of dialog based on keywords. > See, people don't play the game for the fun or the story any more. Either that or they are so caught up in "Oh graphics are s****y in this game" or all the above mentioned. If you ignore that stuff (as I have) the game is soooo much fun. The game leaves so much for you to imagine aswell. Oblivion will be better (I am hoping). And have you played with the player's guide? That's a help as well as the health cheat. I can play with out it, but you have to carry more potions and plant life. -C > From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 13:05:20 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:05:20 -0500 Subject: CoH, Greyswandir, and Dragaerans as heroes In-Reply-To: References: <41F7D4BD.7030807@mpls.cx> Message-ID: As a fellow Brust fan and COH fanatic, I think that Morrolan would be a Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper, because, somewhere in Yendi right after Vlad is ambushed by Norathar and Cawti, Vlad notices that its odd that "Aliera, who was one of the best sorcerers of the Empire, was dueling with one, and Morrolan, one of the best blades in the Empire, was using sorcery." Aliera would probably be a Energy/Rad blaster, both because of her tinkering with genetics (radiation) and I remember her using an energy bolt against Mellar's two bodyguards, and would have the fly pool. BTW, oppressive gloom is the last dark armor power, and it does exactly what drawing a Great Weapon does; AOE stuns around you. Vlad is interesting, as he is represented in none of the archetypes. However, I could see him as Katana/Super Reflexes scrapper with the shuriken ancillary power :). Also, he'd definitely have perma hasten; as an assassin, he has to be speedy. Another pool I see Morrolan having would be fighting, he'd definitely have tough and weave as a swordsman. On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:09:04 -0600, Johne Cook wrote: > I created a new Energy / Energy Blaster on the Virtue server in the > City of Heroes MMORPG last Thursday night. I needed a new name and > chose Greyswandir. After one night, I'm surprised at how many people > sent tells to me along the lines of "I loved those books" or "Amber > rocks". And then for the biggest pleasant surprise of all. > > I got a tell from a guy who complemented me on my nickname and we > commiserated about our love for Roger Zelazny's work. Then, as I was > typing my reply, I received this (which was almost identically what I > was in the process of typing): "If you like Roger Zelazny, you'll love > Stephen Brust". > > I nearly fell out of my chair. > > We nittered on for awhile about the congruence of Dragaera and > characters in CoH. I told him one of my first characters way back > when was a Tazendra character; Scrapper with a Broadsword. We > wondered what sort of character Morrolan would be in CoH (I was torn > between Controller and Blaster, depending on which attributes you > wanted to emphasize). Aliera could be anything, but would have to > have Hover. And so on. It was fun conjecture. > -- > johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | > From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Feb 8 13:12:42 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:12:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: @> > > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for @> > Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. Tee hee. It's cute how the X-Box pretends to be a real game system. @> > "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" @> > "OUTLANDER" @> > "OUTLANDER" @> > "OUTLANDER" @> > @> > "SCREEEECH" @> > @> > <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> I dunno, the cliff racers were never more than an annoyance for me. Maybe I just had the right type of character or something. @> All games have flaws. I always hated the dialog system myself. The @> repetitive voices and constant cliff racer attacks and generally suicidal to @> a fault enemies are oversights on the designers' part. Admittedly painfully @> annoying oversights, but not nearly as bad as the cancer that is the system @> of dialog based on keywords. I wouldn't call it a cancer, but it was definitely not my favorite part of the game. Dialogue trees are clearly the way to go, except in IF. That said, I do like the feedback aspect of it - learning a new keyword is useful in that it's immediately obvious that new conversational branches have opened, whereas I might miss out on them if they're anywhere other than the first node of a tree-based system. What the game Does Right is, of course, the freedom. There are very few games out there that let you murder someone and live in his house, for instance. Which is actually something I didn't do in the game, but it makes me feel better about myself knowing that I could and didn't. @> Personally, I'm holding out for Fallout 3. Or perhaps that should be @> praying. You do know, right, that the people doing Fallout 3 are the same people that did Morrowind? Bethesda Softworks? From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Tue Feb 8 13:17:29 2005 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:17:29 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: For my self I loved Morrowind especially when I found out about that crab merchant. I horded a bunch of stuff bound at the crab and kept going back and forth. eventually I was the most kick arse assassin next to vlad him self -----Original Message----- From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:13 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: OT games On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: @> > > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for @> > Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. Tee hee. It's cute how the X-Box pretends to be a real game system. @> > "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" @> > "OUTLANDER" @> > "OUTLANDER" @> > "OUTLANDER" @> > @> > "SCREEEECH" @> > @> > <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> I dunno, the cliff racers were never more than an annoyance for me. Maybe I just had the right type of character or something. @> All games have flaws. I always hated the dialog system myself. The @> repetitive voices and constant cliff racer attacks and generally suicidal to @> a fault enemies are oversights on the designers' part. Admittedly painfully @> annoying oversights, but not nearly as bad as the cancer that is the system @> of dialog based on keywords. I wouldn't call it a cancer, but it was definitely not my favorite part of the game. Dialogue trees are clearly the way to go, except in IF. That said, I do like the feedback aspect of it - learning a new keyword is useful in that it's immediately obvious that new conversational branches have opened, whereas I might miss out on them if they're anywhere other than the first node of a tree-based system. What the game Does Right is, of course, the freedom. There are very few games out there that let you murder someone and live in his house, for instance. Which is actually something I didn't do in the game, but it makes me feel better about myself knowing that I could and didn't. @> Personally, I'm holding out for Fallout 3. Or perhaps that should be @> praying. You do know, right, that the people doing Fallout 3 are the same people that did Morrowind? Bethesda Softworks? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 13:19:54 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:19:54 -0700 Subject: OT games References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Klein" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:12 PM Subject: RE: OT games > On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: > > @> > > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for > @> > Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. > > Tee hee. It's cute how the X-Box pretends to be a real game system. > Eh? I would take offense to that, but arguing over the merits of a gaming console is similar to the arguments that children have to the Yugio card games. Jeff G. From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 13:21:57 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > What the game Does Right is, of course, the freedom. There are very few > games out there that let you murder someone and live in his house, for > instance. Which is actually something I didn't do in the game, but it > makes me feel better about myself knowing that I could and didn't. The problem is, you could do anything, but there wasn't anything to, you know, do. There was no real sense of direction or mission or plot, and thus no real reason to give a crap or choose a side. It might as well have been The Sims: Ren Faire Fallout, by contrast, had large quantities of freedom, but with an overarching sense of mission and urgency. pe From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 13:24:44 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:24:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > Eh? I would take offense to that, but arguing over the merits of a gaming > console is similar to the arguments that children have to the Yugio card > games. Seriously, aside from its input device deficiencies (and there are keyboard/mouse adapters for the Xbox available), it's a fine machine. Aside from the PS2's well-earned reputation for mechanical unreliability, the three current game consoles are all fine products -- I enjoy my Xbox and Gamecube a great deal, or at least I did until World of Warcraft slashed and burned its way across my free time. pe From mneme at io.com Tue Feb 8 13:25:12 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:25:12 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <1107877244.2781.143.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> <20050208152329.GA16083@bofh.com> <1107868867.2781.124.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050208185604.GA18995@bofh.com> <1107877244.2781.143.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <16905.11832.712.769934@fnord.io.com> Steve Brust writes: >The really is interesting. Bearing in mind that my instructor (Sensei >Fusaro, then 6th Dan, JKA) was a white guy, and that this was years ago, >there are plenty of chances for confusion to slip in; but I'm fairly >sure that what we were taught as sen sen no sen involved finding the >moment when one's opponent was about to attack, but before he had >actually begun. Interesting. In the salle, we'd have called this "interception" -- where you intercept the attack before it has begun and nulify it's force as part of your attack/counterattack. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Tue Feb 8 13:27:43 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:27:43 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] > > In a message dated 2/8/2005 3:42:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Grady Brandt > writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] > >> > >> "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" > >> "OUTLANDER" > >> "OUTLANDER" > >> "OUTLANDER" > >> > >> "SCREEEECH" > >> > **MUTE** > > >> <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> > >> > Health cheat is the best way to go. There also ways to "God Mode" your > character as well (I don't, but I love the health cheat) > > >> pe > >> yes, fun > > > >All games have flaws. I always hated the dialog system myself. The > >repetitive voices and constant cliff racer attacks and generally suicidal > to > >a fault enemies are oversights on the designers' part. Admittedly > painfully > >annoying oversights, but not nearly as bad as the cancer that is the > system > >of dialog based on keywords. > > > See, people don't play the game for the fun or the story any more. Either > that or they are so caught up in "Oh graphics are s****y in this game" or > all the above mentioned. If you ignore that stuff (as I have) the game is > soooo much fun. The game leaves so much for you to imagine aswell. > Oblivion will be better (I am hoping). And have you played with the > player's guide? That's a help as well as the health cheat. I can play with > out it, but you have to carry more potions and plant life. Actually, I try to avoid potions. They're too easy to scam. The brewing system is flawed in that there are no limits to what you can do. From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Tue Feb 8 13:28:58 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:28:58 -0700 Subject: OT games Message-ID: Gomi - same current obsession (WOW) - which server are you on? I'm part of Safe Haven (http://www.safe-haven.us/forums/) on Uther. Anyone else doing WOW? Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:25 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OT games On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > Eh? I would take offense to that, but arguing over the merits of a > gaming console is similar to the arguments that children have to the > Yugio card games. Seriously, aside from its input device deficiencies (and there are keyboard/mouse adapters for the Xbox available), it's a fine machine. Aside from the PS2's well-earned reputation for mechanical unreliability, the three current game consoles are all fine products -- I enjoy my Xbox and Gamecube a great deal, or at least I did until World of Warcraft slashed and burned its way across my free time. pe ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Tue Feb 8 13:30:07 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:30:07 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] > > On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Grady Brandt wrote: > > @> > > Oh, no, I was definately talking about Marrowind. I can't wait for > @> > Oblivion (and for that matter x-box2) to come out. > > Tee hee. It's cute how the X-Box pretends to be a real game system. > > @> > "HELLO OUTLANDER" "HELLO OUTLANDER" > @> > "OUTLANDER" > @> > "OUTLANDER" > @> > "OUTLANDER" > @> > > @> > "SCREEEECH" > @> > > @> > <8000 Cliff Racers kill you> > > I dunno, the cliff racers were never more than an annoyance for me. Maybe > I just had the right type of character or something. > > @> All games have flaws. I always hated the dialog system myself. The > @> repetitive voices and constant cliff racer attacks and generally > suicidal to > @> a fault enemies are oversights on the designers' part. Admittedly > painfully > @> annoying oversights, but not nearly as bad as the cancer that is the > system > @> of dialog based on keywords. > > I wouldn't call it a cancer, but it was definitely not my favorite part of > the game. Dialogue trees are clearly the way to go, except in IF. That > said, I do like the feedback aspect of it - learning a new keyword is > useful in that it's immediately obvious that new conversational branches > have opened, whereas I might miss out on them if they're anywhere other > than the first node of a tree-based system. > > What the game Does Right is, of course, the freedom. There are very few > games out there that let you murder someone and live in his house, for > instance. Which is actually something I didn't do in the game, but it > makes me feel better about myself knowing that I could and didn't. > > @> Personally, I'm holding out for Fallout 3. Or perhaps that should be > @> praying. > > You do know, right, that the people doing Fallout 3 are the same people > that did Morrowind? Bethesda Softworks? Which is exactly what triggered the comment :) I generally like Bethesda's games, but they can have some flaws like everything else. I despise the dialog system in MW, but the game itself is a gem. From BrianKeegan at masonline.net Tue Feb 8 13:30:09 2005 From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:30:09 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: I play eq2 !! any one there? -----Original Message----- From: Durston, Andrew (AGRE) [mailto:andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:29 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: OT games Gomi - same current obsession (WOW) - which server are you on? I'm part of Safe Haven (http://www.safe-haven.us/forums/) on Uther. Anyone else doing WOW? Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:25 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OT games On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > Eh? I would take offense to that, but arguing over the merits of a > gaming console is similar to the arguments that children have to the > Yugio card games. Seriously, aside from its input device deficiencies (and there are keyboard/mouse adapters for the Xbox available), it's a fine machine. Aside from the PS2's well-earned reputation for mechanical unreliability, the three current game consoles are all fine products -- I enjoy my Xbox and Gamecube a great deal, or at least I did until World of Warcraft slashed and burned its way across my free time. pe ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 13:30:59 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:30:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050208213100.45822.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Griffin wrote: > "Just to throw some more confusion into the mix," (Issola pg. > unknown-AFB) > > The 10 securities: > Distance, Guard, Posture, Movement, Change, Flack, Rhythm, Stance, > Weight, > Aggression. > Richard King, Grandmaster, Kiado-Ryu Okay, what's flack? I doubt it means a public-relations specialist. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 13:31:38 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Durston, Andrew (AGRE) wrote: > Gomi - same current obsession (WOW) - which server are you on? I'm part > of Safe Haven (http://www.safe-haven.us/forums/) on Uther. Anyone else > doing WOW? All right-thinking folk are on Silver Hand and play Horde. I encourage you to do the same. pe From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 13:32:16 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Brian Keegan wrote: > I play eq2 !! any one there? lol gb2yifftown furry pe From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Tue Feb 8 13:34:03 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:34:03 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] > > On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > > > What the game Does Right is, of course, the freedom. There are very few > > games out there that let you murder someone and live in his house, for > > instance. Which is actually something I didn't do in the game, but it > > makes me feel better about myself knowing that I could and didn't. > > The problem is, you could do anything, but there wasn't anything to, > you know, do. There was no real sense of direction or mission or plot, > and thus no real reason to give a crap or choose a side. It might as > well have been The Sims: Ren Faire > > Fallout, by contrast, had large quantities of freedom, but with an > overarching sense of mission and urgency. > > pe Morrowind has a nice plot (the expansions have lost direction, but those are just for added content value anyway). I think what they're missing is the sense of urgency about the main story. There are too many sideplots and quests to distract you, and no real impetuous to finish the main plot. I believe that mirrors Daggerfall as well. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 13:34:06 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:34:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: An Effinger Epiphany In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050208213406.76269.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Johne Cook wrote: > > > The novel was "When Gravity Fails" and I remember thinking it was very > > uneven, kind of depressing, and wildly original. I liked it > > immediately, warts and all. I had hoped to read more from this > > author, but alas, never tracked down anything else by him. > > Oh, man, are you in for a treat. Those are three of my most treasured > books. > Everything you said about them goes. Marid and the Budayeen are an > amazing, > vibrant place, and Effinger's early death was a sore loss for the genre. ... I'm with you on the first two books but I'd apply Johne's description of WGF to _The Exile Kiss_: uneven. I only really liked the parts in the desert, as I recall. And I'm very much with you on Effinger's death. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Feb 8 13:34:15 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:34:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: @> > What the game Does Right is, of course, the freedom. There are very few @> > games out there that let you murder someone and live in his house, for @> > instance. Which is actually something I didn't do in the game, but it @> > makes me feel better about myself knowing that I could and didn't. @> @> The problem is, you could do anything, but there wasn't anything to, @> you know, do. There was no real sense of direction or mission or plot, @> and thus no real reason to give a crap or choose a side. It might as @> well have been The Sims: Ren Faire That's not precisely true - the game loads about sixteen goals onto you right at the beginning. It just doesn't force you to pursue any particular one, which may harm the urgency a bit. (Perform your mission for the Emperor, join all the guilds, join a great house, free the slaves, become an assassin, etc.) I never felt like there wasn't anything to do - quite the opposite, in fact; I always had six or seven things that I was trying to do at the same time. @> Fallout, by contrast, had large quantities of freedom, but with an @> overarching sense of mission and urgency. I'm not saying Fallout isn't a superior game in every single possible way. Because it was, with a couple of very minor exceptions. But not everything can be Fallout (and even Fallout can't be Planescape: Torment). Morrowind is acceptable in Fallout's absence. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 8 13:37:49 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:37:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208213100.45822.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050208213100.45822.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > --- James Griffin wrote: > > > "Just to throw some more confusion into the mix," (Issola pg. > > unknown-AFB) > > > > The 10 securities: > > Distance, Guard, Posture, Movement, Change, Flack, Rhythm, Stance, > > Weight, > > Aggression. > > Richard King, Grandmaster, Kiado-Ryu > > Okay, what's flack? I doubt it means a public-relations specialist. Perhaps "flank" was intended? Or perhaps "Fleck"? I hear Bela's deadly with a banjo pick, so he's good to have on your, uhh, flank. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Feb 8 13:37:43 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:37:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Durston, Andrew (AGRE) wrote: @> Gomi - same current obsession (WOW) - which server are you on? I'm part @> of Safe Haven (http://www.safe-haven.us/forums/) on Uther. Anyone else @> doing WOW? Gilneas. Zarkon, Shadesmiter, Glimfizzle, and Greenbough. Wife is Oona and Finraziel. From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 13:38:05 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:38:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <000001c50d7a$4470c6e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050208213805.61839.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > I like it, but I don't believe it. Google has no relevant hits for > > "Pablo Saves", "Roberto Saves", "Pancho Saves", or "Paco Saves". > > (There are too many false positives to check "Juan Saves" [an > > incident from Byron] or "Pedro Saves" [Christmas].) So I doubt very > > much that "Saves" is a Spanish surname. > > I remember an advertisement for The Bill Dana Show where he complained > that > a Fire Hose was a sign telling them to fire Jose Jimenez. I didn't > think > the joke worked back then. > > It's funny when an American says "His name isn't Jesus, it's Hey-Suz. > Except Mexicans pronounce Jesus Christ the same way. It's odd that > Anglos > don't use the name Jesus. "Hey-sus"! There's no [z] sound in most dialects of Spanish except before a voiced consonant (as in "machismo", at least in American Spanish). I think the given "Jesus" is rare or nonexistent in most languages other than Spanish. Unless you count "Joshua" as an equivalent. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 13:43:09 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:43:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050208214310.39094.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Brust" ... > > I beg to differ. Life MUST contradict itself in order to exist. A > > living body is constantly dying and being reborn, adding cells to > itself > > and sloughing off other cells. Death itself is a process (hence all > the > > legal problems about exactly at what point in an orgamism "death" > > occurs. In the time that it has taken me to write this, some numbers > of > > cells in my body have died; others have been created. Should this > > process stop, I would certainly be dead. > > > > > Not neccesarily, but you would be larger. ... Ha! And by the way, "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes)." --Walt Whitman (1819?1892). Song of Myself, sct. 51, Leaves of Grass (1855). Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 13:43:46 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:43:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > But not everything > can be Fallout (and even Fallout can't be Planescape: Torment). Oh, man, don't remind me. Torment literally ruined the CRPG genre for me; for years afterward, I'd just get irritated by how everything else failed to measure up, and stop partway through. KotoR has gone some way towards filling the void, but yeah. Nothing really measures up. pe what can change the nature of a man? From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 8 13:45:41 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:45:41 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: <760C4CFE.6BCED947.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/8/2005 4:19:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff G." writes: >> Tee hee. It's cute how the X-Box pretends to be a real game system. >> >Eh? I would take offense to that, but arguing over the merits of a gaming >console is similar to the arguments that children have to the Yugio card >games. > Not much of an arguing mood myself right now, but I am open to it if anyone else is. I like console better. And Yugio is not just for kids **coughfiancecoughbrotherscough23,20,17cough** -C > From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 13:46:53 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <16905.8714.108762.385953@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20050208214653.80564.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Donna writes: > >From: "Joshua Kronengold" writes: > >>Interesting. Traditionally, in fencing (pre-electric), specific > >>judges are assigned to watch specific fencers, and cannot call points > >>on the other fencer, so there may be less of this effect." > >This is definitely true. I did think that was one of the cooler parts > about > >tournament fencing. One judge watches the back of one fencer, another > judge > >watches the front, and then two judges for the other fencer and one in > the > >middle. > > The one in the middle is a "director", fwiw -- they only get half a > point (or is it one and a half? Not enough to override both judges, > in any case) for judging whether attacks are valid, but have full > discression on the conduct of the bout and right of way (priority). > > >guy gets poked, you raise your hand. It wouldn't work quite as well in > a > >karate tournament because the competitors get to move around so much. > > Actually, I've done judging at a rapier tournament that was modeled > off of classical rules (ie, pre-electric fencing), and it worked ok -- > the judges needed to move a bit to stay to the back of "their" > fencers, but could usually manage ok. Sounds a lot like epee. Jerry Friedman used to watch a lot of fencing matches. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 8 13:47:54 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:47:54 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: <5E96284F.46C18D8D.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/8/2005 4:21:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gomi no Sensei writes: >The problem is, you could do anything, but there wasn't anything to, >you know, do. There was no real sense of direction or mission or plot, >and thus no real reason to give a crap or choose a side. It might as >well have been The Sims: Ren Faire But sometimes a more lesurly game can be fun. If you join the Great Houses, you really want to build you house (as opposed to liveing in someone elses), so there can be an urgency. -C From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 13:53:57 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:53:57 -0600 Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:30:09 -0500, Brian Keegan wrote: > I play eq2 !! any one there? I play a MMORPG - City of Heroes. I named my primary character "Gresh Firebrand" after a character from one of my short stories and named my latest character "Greyswandir" after one of my favorite swords. -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From mneme at io.com Tue Feb 8 14:03:20 2005 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:03:20 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208214653.80564.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <16905.8714.108762.385953@fnord.io.com> <20050208214653.80564.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16905.14120.754817.575128@fnord.io.com> Jerry Friedman writes: >--- Joshua Kronengold wrote: >> Actually, I've done judging at a rapier tournament that was modeled >> off of classical rules (ie, pre-electric fencing), and it worked ok -- >> the judges needed to move a bit to stay to the back of "their" >> fencers, but could usually manage ok. >Sounds a lot like epee. Well, aside from the essential (but left out of the above) fact that it was done "in the round" -- with full freedom of movement within a squarish rectangular area. That plus the fact that fencers were allowed an off-hand weapon (buckler, cloak, or dagger) made it a touch different from epee. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Feb 8 14:12:15 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:12:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: @> > But not everything @> > can be Fallout (and even Fallout can't be Planescape: Torment). @> @> Oh, man, don't remind me. Torment literally ruined the CRPG genre for me; @> for years afterward, I'd just get irritated by how everything else failed @> to measure up, and stop partway through. KotoR has gone some way towards @> filling the void, but yeah. Nothing really measures up. The worst part about it was the number of things that were wrong and missing in PS:T. Imagine what it would have done to you if the game had been a flawless recreation of the developers' original vision... @> what can change the nature of a man? Extra attribute points in Wisdom. From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 14:25:14 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:25:14 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> References: <5133B518.379F1522.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050208101408.GQ23683@Durandal> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2005, at 2:14 AM, Tsarren wrote: > > Anyone on the list study aikido or something similar? For those who > don't, > aikido is based around the idea that you can use your attacker's energy > (resources, whatever) against them instead of initiating your own > attacks. > A question I asked my sensei once when we were studying katana > technique > (one of the roots of aikido is how to survive in battlefield chaos when > you've lost your sword for some reason) was, "assuming two opponents of > equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" > > Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? > > Kat > > I was an aikidoka for awhile. This is one of those questions that generates lovely (and often vigorous) discussions. I'll take a crack at it anyway. Attacker (uke) has initiative. If he can properly utilize it a bout can often be won right there. However, defense (nage) is generally considered to be the stronger position. Once uke commits to an attack he necessarily exposes certain targets which nage can then, in his turn, address. I've often compared a bout to a tennis match in that the winner is usually the one who makes fewer mistakes. I seem to recall Sethra saying something like this at one point (ISSOLA?). One of the things that initially drew me to aikido was a diagram I saw in the Westbrook & Ratti text (AIKIDO & THE DYNAMIC SPHERE) concerning the four ethical levels of combat. Terrific concept! From bonham15 at cox.net Tue Feb 8 14:34:16 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:34:16 -0600 Subject: OT games References: Message-ID: <005901c50e2e$538f6c80$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> kargath here, part of the desperately outnumbered horde.. andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Durston, Andrew (AGRE)" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 3:28 PM Subject: RE: OT games Gomi - same current obsession (WOW) - which server are you on? I'm part of Safe Haven (http://www.safe-haven.us/forums/) on Uther. Anyone else doing WOW? Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:25 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OT games On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > Eh? I would take offense to that, but arguing over the merits of a > gaming console is similar to the arguments that children have to the > Yugio card games. Seriously, aside from its input device deficiencies (and there are keyboard/mouse adapters for the Xbox available), it's a fine machine. Aside from the PS2's well-earned reputation for mechanical unreliability, the three current game consoles are all fine products -- I enjoy my Xbox and Gamecube a great deal, or at least I did until World of Warcraft slashed and burned its way across my free time. pe ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 8 14:39:01 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:39:01 -0700 Subject: Introversion / Extraversion (was: Re: contradictions) In-Reply-To: <200502081334.j18DYCQP095016@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <000001c50e2e$fdc41de0$667ba8c0@Dad133> David Rodemaker wrote: > However, in the realm of introversion, M-B / K doesn't tell me > anything I don't already know, and doesn't help convince my husband > that all introverts are not alike in scope and intensity. Those tests help people to realize that not all people are alike - instead there are 4 stereotypes. Pick the closest one and you can pretend you understand that person. From dar at horusinc.com Tue Feb 8 14:56:54 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:56:54 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502082257.j18MuuQP121668@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> > "assuming two opponents of > equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" > > Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? > > Kat Well, I'd first want you to define attack. I don't study Aikido, but in JKD we consider attacking in any number of levels or dynamics. There's controlling range, there's controlling the rhythm of the fight, there's controlling the tools used in the fight... Is an attack an active physical action? Or is it a more mental or spiritual action? Is a feint an attack? Is taking advantage of endurance an attack? Is an attack meant to cause damage? Oh, and to answer the question above - assuming equal skill and the same style/school? If I'm twice as fast and just as strong or even stronger? Take 'em out. David From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Feb 8 15:16:39 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:16:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: An Effinger Epiphany In-Reply-To: <20050208213406.76269.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050208213406.76269.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > And I'm very much with you on Effinger's death. I'd also like to plug N. Lee Wood's 'Looking for the Mahdi' to anyone looking for a book with a good futuristic Middle Eastern setting. pe From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Feb 8 15:49:57 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:49:57 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <200502082257.j18MuuQP121668@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200502082257.j18MuuQP121668@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <20050208234957.GT23683@Durandal> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 04:56:54PM -0600, David Rodemaker wrote: > Well, I'd first want you to define attack. I don't study Aikido, but in JKD > we consider attacking in any number of levels or dynamics. > > There's controlling range, Not classified as an attack in aikido. Controlling *anything* is generally not classified as an attack in aikido. there's controlling the rhythm of the fight, > there's controlling the tools used in the fight... > > Is an attack an active physical action? Or is it a more mental or spiritual > action? That's a little more philosophical than I was thinking.. have you any specific examples we could discuss? >Is a feint an attack? Debatable. I'd lean more towards the 'it's a controlling move, therefore not an attack' standpoint, even if it is followed immediately by an attack. > Is taking advantage of endurance an attack? Could you be more specific? > Is > an attack meant to cause damage? I would classify all actions meant to cause damage as attacks. However, not all attacks are actions meant to cause damage. Grabbing someone's wrist or lapel is an attack. Pushing someone away when they weren't already going that direction or close to it is an attack. > Oh, and to answer the question above - assuming equal skill and the same > style/school? If I'm twice as fast and just as strong or even stronger? 'twice as fast' means more skilled, imo. If you can do a technique at speed X, but you want to double your speed, you practice, thus becoming more skilled. Perhaps I should have clairified the 'equal skill' question. When I asked it I had in mind 'all other things being equal', whether that applies to two human opponents or two opposing armies and all their technology and ordinance and the ground they hold. Kat From dar at horusinc.com Tue Feb 8 16:57:26 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:57:26 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208234957.GT23683@Durandal> Message-ID: <200502090057.j190vToC061756@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> > > There's controlling range, > Not classified as an attack in aikido. Controlling *anything* is > generally not classified as an attack in aikido. Including one's opponent? *grin* > > Is an attack an active physical action? Or is it a more mental or > > spiritual action? > That's a little more philosophical than I was thinking.. have you any > specific examples we could discuss? Well, there's that moment when your opponent has made the commitment to attack, but has not yet done so. (I would say that this was being discussed to a degree in the 'sen no sen' portion of the thread) If you move first, intercept his potential attack with one of your own. Have you attacked first? Or has he? Is a verbal threat an attack? Or, one step better, a ki-ai? I suspect that O-sensei would say that either one is. > > Is a feint an attack? > Debatable. I'd lean more towards the 'it's a controlling move, therefore > not an attack' standpoint, even if it is followed immediately by an > attack. See Above, but you have projected force in such a manner to constitute a threat and thus brought about a counterattack or defensive move. My admittedly old Living Webster primary definition of attack is "to assault" - assault is then defined as "to fall upon by violence or with a hostile intention" and violence is then defined by "intense or severe force" - 'fall upon' is then circularly defined as "to assault"... > > Is taking advantage of endurance an attack? Could you be more specific? If I manipulate the tempo of the fight in such a manner that my opponent is burning calories, becoming winded, etc faster than I am - is that an attack? > > Is an attack meant to cause damage? > I would classify all actions meant to cause damage as attacks. However, > not all attacks are actions meant to cause damage. Grabbing someone's > wrist or lapel is an attack. Pushing someone away when they weren't > already going that direction or close to it is an attack. So maneuvering position such that light is in my opponents eyes is attack? It is painful if they allow it, and distracting if they don't. Maneuvering position so that my opponent is on rough or uneven or dangerous ground while I remain on safe ground is an attack? If is this is done by my 'retreating' and giving ground - taking no action that is potentially viewed as offensive. > > Oh, and to answer the question above - assuming equal skill and the same > > style/school? If I'm twice as fast and just as strong or even stronger? > 'twice as fast' means more skilled, imo. If you can do a technique at > speed X, but you want to double your speed, you practice, thus becoming > more skilled. A debate for another forum perhaps, but I disagree. Physiology dictates the overall limits of speed, as well as inherent traits - while you may develop more or 'better' speed with improved technique and intense training there is still a base talent that is built upon. > Perhaps I should have clairified the 'equal skill' question. When I asked > it I had in mind 'all other things being equal', whether that applies to > two human opponents or two opposing armies and all their technology and > ordinance and the ground they hold. Understood, and I was mostly playing devil's advocate... ;-) David From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 17:18:53 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:53 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050208213100.45822.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Heh, It refers to a barrage of hits thrown out that the attacker must advance through to come in range, hopefully getting hit (vitally) whilst conducting said advance. Think WWII Anti-aircraft fire versus a strafing run. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >From: Jerry Friedman >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) >Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:30:59 -0800 (PST) > > >--- James Griffin wrote: > > > "Just to throw some more confusion into the mix," (Issola pg. > > unknown-AFB) > > > > The 10 securities: > > Distance, Guard, Posture, Movement, Change, Flack, Rhythm, Stance, > > Weight, > > Aggression. > > Richard King, Grandmaster, Kiado-Ryu > >Okay, what's flack? I doubt it means a public-relations specialist. > >Jerry Friedman > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 17:53:11 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:53:11 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Griffin" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) > Heh, > > It refers to a barrage of hits thrown out that the attacker must advance > through to come in range, hopefully getting hit (vitally) whilst conducting > said advance. Think WWII Anti-aircraft fire versus a strafing run. > > James Griffin, > Still Another Vlad faN > Along the line of Spetsgruppa Al'fa training. 200 punchs a minute is the minimum passing score. I never cared for it myself, I prefer a single decisive strike to many indirect ones. Jeff G. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 18:04:08 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 03:04:08 +0100 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jerry Friedman wrote >>Okay, what's flack? I doubt it means a public-relations specialist. >> >>Jerry Friedman >> >From: "James Griffin" >>Heh, > >It refers to a barrage of hits thrown out that the attacker must advance >through to come in range, hopefully getting hit (vitally) whilst conducting >said advance. Think WWII Anti-aircraft fire versus a strafing run. > >James Griffin, >Still Another Vlad faN > It's from German FLiegerAbwehrKanonen, flak. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 18:48:15 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:48:15 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Wohlert" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) > Jerry Friedman wrote > >>Okay, what's flack? I doubt it means a public-relations specialist. > >> > >>Jerry Friedman > >> > > >From: "James Griffin" > >>Heh, > > > >It refers to a barrage of hits thrown out that the attacker must advance > >through to come in range, hopefully getting hit (vitally) whilst conducting > >said advance. Think WWII Anti-aircraft fire versus a strafing run. > > > >James Griffin, > >Still Another Vlad faN > > > > It's from German FLiegerAbwehrKanonen, flak. > > /Mrtn > Air Defense Cannon, for those who kann nicht Deutsches sprechen. (Or is that gesprecht? It's been to long. . . ) Jeff G. With a preemptive strike. From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 8 19:03:13 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:03:13 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <200502082257.j18MuuQP121668@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <000401c50e53$e5acaae0$667ba8c0@Dad133> David Rodemaker wrote: >> "assuming two opponents of >> equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" >> >> Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? >> >> Kat > > Well, I'd first want you to define attack. I don't study Aikido, but > in JKD we consider attacking in any number of levels or dynamics. Speaking of range - you don't want to be 2nd in a gun-fight. From dar at horusinc.com Tue Feb 8 19:22:40 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:22:40 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <000401c50e53$e5acaae0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <200502090322.j193MioC301668@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> >>> "assuming two opponents of >>> equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" >>> >>> Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? >>> >>> Kat >> >> Well, I'd first want you to define attack. I don't study Aikido, but >> in JKD we consider attacking in any number of levels or dynamics. > >Speaking of range - you don't want to be 2nd in a gun-fight. *chuckle* And my school also has regular firearms classes, plus pepper spray seminars, and at our school we start stick and knife work at the beginning along with open hand. Another funny? At one of the instructor's weddings recently we had an 'action photo' when he was walking around and asking everyone if they were packing steel. Everyone associated with the martial arts at the wedding except one person was carrying at least one folding blade on themselves... *wink* David From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 19:48:18 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:48:18 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) References: <200502090322.j193MioC301668@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Rodemaker" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:22 PM Subject: RE: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) > >>> "assuming two opponents of > >>> equal skill, is there ever an adavantage to attacking first?" > >>> > >>> Anyone care to discuss the question, on any scale? > >>> > >>> Kat > >> > >> Well, I'd first want you to define attack. I don't study Aikido, but > >> in JKD we consider attacking in any number of levels or dynamics. > > > >Speaking of range - you don't want to be 2nd in a gun-fight. > > *chuckle* And my school also has regular firearms classes, plus pepper spray > seminars, and at our school we start stick and knife work at the beginning > along with open hand. > > Another funny? At one of the instructor's weddings recently we had an > 'action photo' when he was walking around and asking everyone if they were > packing steel. Everyone associated with the martial arts at the wedding > except one person was carrying at least one folding blade on themselves... > > *wink* > > David > > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As I was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. As far as gunfights (in the spaghetti western style) there are two schools of thought that I have heard; take your time and get a good, well aimed shot off, or fire of a quick round in the general direction to rattle your opponent, then fire an aimed shot while he (or she) is checking for new holes. Discuss. Jeff G. From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 9 04:53:44 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 05:53:44 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c50ea6$641eb060$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff Gibbons wrote: > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As > I was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. I was given a knife for being Best Man at a wedding. From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 9 04:56:10 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 05:56:10 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c50ea6$bb40bff0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff Gibbons wrote: > As far as gunfights (in the spaghetti western style) there are two > schools of thought that I have heard; take your time and get a good, > well aimed shot off, or fire of a quick round in the general > direction to rattle your opponent, then fire an aimed shot while he > (or she) is checking for new holes. Discuss. I remember watching an episode if _Bat Masterson_. Some Englishman came to town with contempt for six-shooting revolvers. He had a one shot pistol that had more range. He wanted and got a shoot-out with Bat. Bat meanwhile got a revolver with just as much range. Nobody ended up being killed though. From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Feb 9 05:09:12 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 06:09:12 -0700 Subject: OT games Message-ID: The latter I do, we have a sister guild, Dark Haven, on the same server on the "other side" as it were. As for changing servers, well, I will have to drop by sometime and say Hi. Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:32 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: OT games On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Durston, Andrew (AGRE) wrote: > Gomi - same current obsession (WOW) - which server are you on? I'm > part of Safe Haven (http://www.safe-haven.us/forums/) on Uther. Anyone > else doing WOW? All right-thinking folk are on Silver Hand and play Horde. I encourage you to do the same. pe ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 9 06:24:37 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:24:37 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <2A2A84CE.16917CD7.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/2005 7:53:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >Jeff Gibbons wrote: > >> Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As >> I was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > >I was given a knife for being Best Man at a wedding. > > I hate not being able to carry my knife at work. I think patients might get a little scared. And Howard, do you like your knife? I was thinking of doing that for my finace's best man and ushers. -C > > From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Feb 9 08:37:05 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:37:05 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: <3BAB84DC.217316CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Gomi no Sensei writes: >On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > >> But not everything can be Fallout (and even Fallout can't be >> Planescape: Torment). > > Oh, man, don't remind me. Torment literally ruined the CRPG > genre for me; for years afterward, I'd just get irritated by > how everything else failed to measure up, and stop partway > through. KotoR has gone some way towards filling the void, but > yeah. Nothing really measures up. Yeah, I know the feeling. For me, nothing comes anywhere close to measuring up to Ultima V, Star Control 2, or The Forest's Edge (MUD). I deeply regret spending money on Ultima 7 and Daggerfall, and gave up on Torment after a couple hours. The dialogue was always slightly off: it never had exactly what I wanted to say, and the responses were never exactly what I expected, and I occassionaly had trouble remembering which parts of the dialogue tree I still needed to visit. And the interface is one of the worst I've even seen. It took me 15 minutes to figure out that you talk to people by clicking their feet, and it was really annoying having to wave the mouse around to find exits from the room. Is it too much to ask for opaque walls and visible floors? And I hate blindly walking off the edges of the map. --KG From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 9 08:37:26 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:37:26 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <2A2A84CE.16917CD7.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <2A2A84CE.16917CD7.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:24:37 -0500, wrote: >> I was given a knife for being Best Man at a wedding. >> >> > I hate not being able to carry my knife at work. I think patients might > get a little scared. > And Howard, do you like your knife? I was thinking of doing that for my > finace's best man and ushers. > -C I liked it very much. I have since lost it, but it lasted longer than that marriage did. I have accidentally carried small knifes on airplanes in the last couple of years, but usually manage to get them in the non-carry on baggage. (Do vultures have carrion luggage?) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Wed Feb 9 08:44:47 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:44:47 -0500 Subject: on contradictions and such In-Reply-To: <20050208054854.GA22138@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <5E152D12.1B5839CB.00184D6D@aol.com> <7E03125C-77E2-11D9-A49E-00039318B776@earthlink.net> <420796EA.90302@email.ers.usda.gov> <20050207165136.GA19036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050208054854.GA22138@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <420A3DFF.90704@email.ers.usda.gov> Steve Simmons wrote: >On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:38:00PM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > > >>From: "Philip Hart" >> >> >>>On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: >>> >>>What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of >>>the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? >>>Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter >>>were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) >>>that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep >>>him out of Japan. >>> >>> >>As I recall, the original justification for the firebombing of Tokyo was >>that the Japanese industry was spread throughout many small "home" >>workshops, making the type of directed attack used against the German >>industry useless. Of course, I haven't studied this in detail for over 15 >>years, so there may be some information I have forgotten. As far as the >>atomic bombs, well, I think it was multifaceted, a message to Stalin and a >>way to finish the war quickly. 1.6 million estimated US casualties if the >>home islands were invaded is the number that pops into my head, and that was >>based on the nasty island hopping fighting done on the way to Japan. Also, >>until you have seen the devestation that they wrecked upon a city, you can >>not comprehend how devestating those weapons are, regardless of how many >>films you have seen of them expolding in the desert. >> >> >When considering the use of nuclear weapons, one needs to bear in mind >that those making the decision didn't understand the long-term issues of >fallout, the effect of the flash, etc, etc. They certianly expected >something similar to the firebombing, tho, and the intent was exactly to >cause the 'indiscrimate' destruction which resulted. > > The Nagasaki bomb was different in design from the Hiroshima bomb. There is some evidence that planners deliberately went ahead with that mission because they wanted to study the difference in the effects of the bombs & in the way they were employed. I don't think anyone has found a smoking gun to that effect, but if true it was a pretty despicable act. >The book >is flawed, but will tell you in chilling detail the intensity of the >Japanese resistance. . . . There was every reason to expect that taking >Japan itself would be harder, both on the US soldier and on the Japanese. > >The most common counter-arguement is that the Japanese were ready >to surrender. There were certianly some Japanese officials who were >sounding out the US about the possibility of same, but it wasn't clear >then or now just how influential they were. As a counter-example, >bear in mind that there were individuals in the Japanese military who >considered assasinating the Emperor rather than surrender -- and that >was *after* the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped. > > > Actually it is quite clear who these officials were: it was the Japanese war cabinet discussing the possibility among itself (& disagreeing violently). There's no way to know how the debate would have ultimately gone nor how long it would have taken, but the fact that in a culture of conformity dissent was raised at all & at such a high level is significant, I feel. But balanced against that is the fact that the die-hards still had significant support & probably would have controlled things. For a while, anyways. Also to be considered is that the Japanese had made peace overtures through the Soviets & had replied to messages from the US--but the Soviets didn't pass back the Japanese answers because Stalin wanted to keep the war going long enough to transfer troops to the east & invade Manchuria & China. The US naturally assumed the Japanese wern't interested. It's also the case that the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on the heels of Hiroshima carried more weight with the cabinet than Hiroshima. Right about the time the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki, the Japanese position in Manchuria had collapsed beyond any possibility of rescue--this after only 48 hours. It looked to the Japanese as if they would lose all of China in a few weeks at that rate--and the majority of their armies & all of their elite troops were in China. Nor could they have returned them to the home islands, because intense mine and submarine warfare since the early spring of '45 had totally cut off Japanese naval & transport traffic. Even ships hugging the coast or proceding through the Inland Waterway could travel only slowly, with the greatest of difficulty, and with severe losses. Mines alone, employed mostly in '45, amounted to 22% of shipping losses in the entire war for the Japanese. The original estimate was for 250,000 *casualties* for an invasion. Somewhere along the way up the chain of command, that got translated to 250,000 *killed* & therefore, 1,000,000 total casualties. No one now seems to be able to work out how the estimate was made, how it was miscommunicated, & how it got changed. As a ballpark figure, the first estimate isn't unreasonable, but the later one is. Bear in mind that only secondary troops, ill-equipped & ill-trained, were in Japan itself. Bear in mind, too, that Japan was rapidly starving to death as a result of the naval campaigns mentioned above. It isn't clear that resistance could have even continued to '46. Which is more or less what the Strategic Bombing Survey concluded when it went into Japan in the fall of '45--that an invasion would never have been necessary. The point may be arguable, but anyone doing so is working from the disadvantage that the SBS were professionals on the ground at the time whereas none of us can say the same (most likely, unless any of you are BDA experts (-: ). Finally, Teller (hardly a wishy washy revisionist liberal!) after many years of maintaining the correctness of the decision to bomb Hiroshima eventually changed his mind & wished that he had instead argued for a "test" blast near Tokyo. I forget whether his idea was a nighttime air burst, far enough out to do little damage, but enough to impress the eveyone with the sight of a miniature sun in their nighttime sky, or a day blast in Tokyo Bay, but either proposition would have been more convincing on the cabinet since they would actually have been able to *see* what 1 bomb could do, upfront and personal. (It took nearly 24 hours for any coherent account of what happened at Hiroshima to get back to them; they had to send someone by train to take a look for himself & bring back photos, & that took hours, given the wrecked nature of communications across the island.) The upshot is we aren't ever going to know and you aren't ever going to convince any veteran of the Pacific war that it was other than wise to bomb. My own take is that the first bombing was debatable but understandable, that the second bombing so close on the heels of the first was wrong, and that a demonstration blast near to Tokyo would have made more sense in any case. I certainly don't buy the idea that the bomb alone caused the Japanese to surrender, because there was too much else going on at the time; it's possible, but I don't see how you can prove it. Snarkhunter From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 9 09:34:48 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:34:48 -0500 Subject: OT games Message-ID: <06FC0B1A.21097FFC.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/2005 11:37:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > {SNIP} > ?Is it too much to ask for opaque >walls and visible floors? ?And I hate blindly walking off the >edges of the map. > > > That's the problem I have with another game I love (for PS2). Dynasty Wariors III and IV, when the game gets overwhelmed with too many enemies, some of them disappear. I know it's a lot to handle for the screen, but it's still a pain. -C > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 9 09:38:28 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:38:28 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <50C70DF0.224DF91A.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/2005 11:37:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >I liked it very much. ?I have since lost it, but it lasted longer than ? >that marriage did. > Awe. >I have accidentally carried small knifes on airplanes in the last couple ? >of years, but usually manage to get them in the non-carry on baggage. ? ? >(Do vultures have carrion luggage?) > >-- I forgot I had a knife in my purse that my CO gave me when I went into the processing station for the military. I never saw it again and I couldn't tell my CO I lost. He probably could have gotten it back for me though. $20 knife. -C >Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 9 09:55:19 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:55:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: <3BAB84DC.217316CD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3BAB84DC.217316CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: @> > Oh, man, don't remind me. Torment literally ruined the CRPG @> > genre for me; for years afterward, I'd just get irritated by @> > how everything else failed to measure up, and stop partway @> > through. KotoR has gone some way towards filling the void, but @> > yeah. Nothing really measures up. @> @> Yeah, I know the feeling. For me, nothing comes anywhere close @> to measuring up to Ultima V, Star Control 2, or The Forest's @> Edge (MUD). I deeply regret spending money on Ultima 7 and @> Daggerfall, and gave up on Torment after a couple hours. Happy *campers* are the best! We will have *parties* in the *middle* for sure. It is *fun time*! @> @> The dialogue was always slightly off: it never had exactly what @> I wanted to say, and the responses were never exactly what I @> expected, and I occassionaly had trouble remembering which @> parts of the dialogue tree I still needed to visit. The dialogue choice is always going to be a personal thing; there are only a limited number of options that can be put in, so there will never be a game that completely satisfies everybody. @> And the interface is one of the worst I've even seen. It took me 15 @> minutes to figure out that you talk to people by clicking their @> feet, and it was really annoying having to wave the mouse around @> to find exits from the room. Is it too much to ask for opaque @> walls and visible floors? And I hate blindly walking off the @> edges of the map. @> This is a bit harsher. The game used a somewhat modified Baldur's Gate-style interface (since it came from the same engine). It's not ideal, but it gets the job done a lot better than most. I think there was a shortcut key you could hold down to find all the exits, although maybe that wasn't implemented until the next BG enginer game. (One might also point out that the feet problem could have been solved by reading the manual. ;) From gomi at pollywog.com Wed Feb 9 10:16:16 2005 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:16:16 -0800 Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: <06FC0B1A.21097FFC.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <06FC0B1A.21097FFC.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <420A5370.50306@pollywog.com> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Dynasty Wariors III and IV, when the game gets overwhelmed with too many enemies, some of them disappear. I know it's a lot to handle for the screen, but it's still a pain. > > Dynasty Warriors III also features vast quantities of the most execrable voice acting EVER. Quite possibly it's done by people who don't speak English at all and are delivering their lines phonetically. It certainly adds an element of unintentional humor to the gaming experience. pe From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 10:24:12 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050209182412.18644.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Rodemaker" ... > > Another funny? At one of the instructor's weddings recently we had an > > 'action photo' when he was walking around and asking everyone if they > were > > packing steel. Everyone associated with the martial arts at the > wedding > > except one person was carrying at least one folding blade on > themselves... > > > > *wink* > > > > David > > > > > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As I > was > presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. I think Miss Manners would have approved, at least if you're talking about wearing the knife openly (unlike the wedding David mentioned), though it may depend on the religion or lack thereof and on the social circles. > As far as gunfights (in the spaghetti western style) there are two > schools > of thought that I have heard; take your time and get a good, well aimed > shot > off, or fire of a quick round in the general direction to rattle your > opponent, then fire an aimed shot while he (or she) is checking for new > holes. Discuss. Okay. Stay out of gunfights. In particular, stay out of movie-style gunfights. You can get hurt. (I am not talking about either military or police work, if one of those is your calling. I don't think Jeff was talking about them either.) Jerry Friedman has never even been tempted to fight with a weapon-- which may be why he likes the Dragaera books. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Feb 9 10:35:18 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:35:18 -0600 Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: References: <3BAB84DC.217316CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050209183518.GA23683@Durandal> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 12:55:19PM -0500, John Klein wrote: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > @> Yeah, I know the feeling. For me, nothing comes anywhere close > @> to measuring up to Ultima V, Star Control 2, or The Forest's > @> Edge (MUD). I deeply regret spending money on Ultima 7 and > @> Daggerfall, and gave up on Torment after a couple hours. > > Happy *campers* are the best! We will have *parties* in the *middle* for > sure. It is *fun time*! Jumping *peppers*!! This is *smiley* time! How I miss Starcon2. After losing the disks I bought it online for $10. The game ran fine in win95 but I haven't tried it in years on newer versions of windoze. I guess there's always freeDOS. Kat From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 9 10:36:54 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:36:54 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050209182412.18644.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209182412.18644.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:24:12 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >> Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As I >> was >> presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > I think Miss Manners would have approved, at least if you're talking > about wearing the knife openly (unlike the wedding David mentioned), > though it may depend on the religion or lack thereof and on the > social circles. It's always nice to have a knife when it's time to open presents. A knife, or even better, scissors can be useful when people are in an event with new fancy clothes that might have threads hanging. Pocket knives make terrible weapons. There's no way one can hijack an airplane with one. The paranoia that makes them proscribed from airplanes is misdirected. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 9 10:44:25 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:44:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT games In-Reply-To: <20050209183518.GA23683@Durandal> References: <3BAB84DC.217316CD.00048EA6@aol.com> <20050209183518.GA23683@Durandal> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Tsarren wrote: @> > @> Yeah, I know the feeling. For me, nothing comes anywhere close @> > @> to measuring up to Ultima V, Star Control 2, or The Forest's @> > @> Edge (MUD). I deeply regret spending money on Ultima 7 and @> > @> Daggerfall, and gave up on Torment after a couple hours. @> > @> > Happy *campers* are the best! We will have *parties* in the *middle* for @> > sure. It is *fun time*! @> @> Jumping *peppers*!! This is *smiley* time! No more Androsynth stories. Or else it is *dancing*! @> How I miss Starcon2. After losing the disks I bought it online for $10. @> The game ran fine in win95 but I haven't tried it in years on newer versions @> of windoze. I guess there's always freeDOS. http://sc2.sf.net From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 9 11:25:59 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:25:59 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <16A0544B.4A612310.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >Pocket knives make terrible weapons. ? There's no way one can hijack an ? >airplane with one. ? The paranoia that makes them proscribed from ? >airplanes is misdirected. > I thought it was a "box cutter" (razor blade in a protector). -C > From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Wed Feb 9 11:35:54 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:35:54 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:24:12 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > wrote: > > >> Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As I > >> was > >> presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > > I think Miss Manners would have approved, at least if you're talking > > about wearing the knife openly (unlike the wedding David mentioned), > > though it may depend on the religion or lack thereof and on the > > social circles. > > It's always nice to have a knife when it's time to open presents. A > knife, or even better, scissors can be useful when people are in an event > with new fancy clothes that might have threads hanging. > > Pocket knives make terrible weapons. There's no way one can hijack an > airplane with one. The paranoia that makes them proscribed from > airplanes is misdirected. Yes, but they're banning fingernail clippers too, so are you really surprised? From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Feb 9 11:37:14 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:37:14 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <000001c50ea6$641eb060$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000001c50ea6$641eb060$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050209143535.034c0960@pop.east.cox.net> At 07:53 02/09/2005, Howard Brazee wrote: >Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As > > I was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > >I was given a knife for being Best Man at a wedding. I was taught that a gift of a knife could cut a friendship; thus, in my family, such a gift was always paid for with a token sum (a dime or a postage stamp or something). Has anyone else ever run across that? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From casey at the-bat.net Wed Feb 9 11:43:46 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:46 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <16A0544B.4A612310.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > "Howard Brazee" writes: > > >Pocket knives make terrible weapons. ? There's no way one > >can hijack an airplane with one. ? The paranoia that makes > >them proscribed from airplanes is misdirected. > > > I thought it was a "box cutter" (razor blade in a protector). > -C I have a small folding multi-tool-of-last-resort that has a nice set of scissors and a very sharp small blade that could easily do the same damage that a box cutter can do. In the spring of '02, I went to MSG for the Big East tournament with a buddy. They took his mini lockblade that was on his key chain, but missed my micra. The next time I flew, I remembered to take it off my keychain as I got out of the car at the airport. Unfortunately, this means I don't have it on my keychain anymore. Casey From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 11:50:01 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:50:01 +0100 Subject: Knives Was: RE: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050209143535.034c0960@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: >I was taught that a gift of a knife could cut a friendship; thus, in my >family, such a gift was always paid for with a token sum (a dime or a >postage stamp or something). > >Has anyone else ever run across that? I think that's an old superstition. I saw on TV that the king of Sweden got gifted a knife last year, whereupon his aide quickly searched his pockets for a coin to pay for it. Apparently the giver was happy about that, as the coin even had a portrait of the king... /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Wed Feb 9 11:52:17 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:52:17 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter H. Granzeau [mailto:pgranzeau at cox.net] > > At 07:53 02/09/2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > >Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > > > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As > > > I was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > > > >I was given a knife for being Best Man at a wedding. > > I was taught that a gift of a knife could cut a friendship; thus, in my > family, such a gift was always paid for with a token sum (a dime or a > postage stamp or something). > > Has anyone else ever run across that? My mother follows that tradition. In fact, she always makes my dad hand her a penny whenever she replaces his pocket knife at Christmas. From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Feb 9 11:52:54 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:52:54 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <16A0544B.4A612310.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <16A0544B.4A612310.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050209195254.GH8732@infodancer.org> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 02:25:59PM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/9/2005 1:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > >Pocket knives make terrible weapons. ? There's no way one can hijack an ? > >airplane with one. ? The paranoia that makes them proscribed from ? > >airplanes is misdirected. > I thought it was a "box cutter" (razor blade in a protector). That's what is most widely discussed, yes. But you don't hijack airplanes with what you smuggle on board. You hijack airplanes with *fear* and *hope*. Fear that you will kill the pilot and the passengers if they resist; hope that if they do not resist, the plane will land safely and everyone will go home. So long as we remember 9/11/2001, no one can repeat it. After the first time, the terrorists can offer only fear... never hope. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From casey at the-bat.net Wed Feb 9 11:54:56 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:54:56 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050209143535.034c0960@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: Pete Granzeau wrote: > I was taught that a gift of a knife could cut a friendship; > thus, in my family, such a gift was always paid for with a > token sum (a dime or a postage stamp or something). > > Has anyone else ever run across that? Yup. Along with the one where you never give someone an empty purse/wallet/change purse. It's gotta be seeded with a low denomination coin or bill or else you're inviting poverty for the recipient. Can't say I've ever held much with either of these, but I've heard both of them. Casey From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 9 12:03:44 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:03:44 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:35:54 -0500, Grady Brandt wrote: >> Pocket knives make terrible weapons. There's no way one can hijack an >> airplane with one. The paranoia that makes them proscribed from >> airplanes is misdirected. > Yes, but they're banning fingernail clippers too, so are you really > surprised? A while back a pilot had his clippers confiscated. When he complained that as a pilot, he could crash the plane any time he wanted without resorting to threatening himself with a grooming implement, they cancelled the flight. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 9 12:07:43 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:07:43 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050209195254.GH8732@infodancer.org> References: <16A0544B.4A612310.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050209195254.GH8732@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:52:54 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > That's what is most widely discussed, yes. But you don't hijack > airplanes with what you smuggle on board. You hijack airplanes > with *fear* and *hope*. Fear that you will kill the pilot and > the passengers if they resist; hope that if they do not resist, > the plane will land safely and everyone will go home. Well, the terrorists have won the fear battle. > So long as we remember 9/11/2001, no one can repeat it. > After the first time, the terrorists can offer only fear... > never hope. That particular attack was solved halfway through the attack. Only two of the airplanes were allowed to reach their targets, passengers certainly solved the PA airplane and possibly the DC plane (which appears to have been forced into its secondary target). The solution for that attack is to never let terrorists fly the plane. Period. If they kill everybody in the plane, they still can't use it as a weapon. Trouble is - the enemy will move to the next target while we are worried about fingernail clippers. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Wed Feb 9 12:18:07 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:19:07 +0101 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <20050209201845.GA34813@weller-fahy.com> * Casey Rousseau [2005-02-09 20:45 +0100]: > I have a small folding multi-tool-of-last-resort that has a nice set > of scissors and a very sharp small blade that could easily do the same > damage that a box cutter can do. In the spring of '02, I went to MSG > for the Big East tournament with a buddy. They took his mini > lockblade that was on his key chain, but missed my micra. The next > time I flew, I remembered to take it off my keychain as I got out of > the car at the airport. Unfortunately, this means I don't have it on > my keychain anymore. I remember the first trip to Saudi after 9/11. Heading through security they found the lighter that my wife (then girlfriend) had given me on the one year anniversary of meeting eachother. It's a silver zippo. To set this up - I'd just flown (with two connections) from Anchorage to Baltimore with said Zippo. I'd gone through security at each stop, because I'd run outside to smoke. Enter security (paraphrasing, because my memory ain't great). Security: Oh, you can't take that on the plane. We'll need to confiscate that. Me: I arrived here from another plane which I was only able to get on by carrying it with me. I'm pretty sure I can take it on the plane. Security: No, the regulations are quite clear on that. Me: Really? Could you please show me the regulations that say that? Security: Umm. No, we don't keep copies here. But you'll have to surrender your lighter. Me: Do I get it back when I travel back through this airport? Do I get a hand receipt? Security: No. No, you don't get it back. Me: What happens to them? Do you sell them? Do you donate them to the needy? Security: Umm. I'm not quite sure, that's not my department. Me: Well, thanks but no thanks, you're not taking my lighter. At which point I get out of the line. I go back to the snack-bar where I'd been waiting, and buy a paper sack. I then walk up to the ticket counter, past the line, and explain that I have one more piece of checked baggage to put on a plane that's leaving in 30 minutes. The lady behind the counter was extremely nice, she even provided a pen and some tape to seal the bag containing the lighter. Then she wrote the line number on the bag, and gave it to a thrower to deliver to the plane. The bag was about 4x3 inches by the time I'd finished folding and packing it. The punchline, interestingly, is that after all the horror stories you hear about lost and misplaced luggage the lighter *made it through*, and was undamaged! I was called out of line before customs by one of the people unloading baggage. He looked at me funny, but handed over the tiny checked baggage. ;] Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 9 12:19:47 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:19:47 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) Message-ID: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >Trouble is - the enemy will move to the next target while we are worried ? >about fingernail clippers. > > The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more worried about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. They can do more damage than the clippers and have worse long term effect, like an infection after being scratched. Clippers should be allowed onboard to defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have fingernail clippers! Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" -C From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 9 12:24:44 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:24:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Knives Was: RE: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Martin Wohlert wrote: > I think that's an old superstition. I saw on TV that the king of Sweden got > gifted a knife last year, whereupon his aide quickly searched his pockets > for a coin to pay for it. Apparently the giver was happy about that, as the > coin even had a portrait of the king... Speaking of the King of Sweden, Casey and Andy has recently incorporated a running gag thereof: http://www.galactanet.com/comic/432.htm and forward. pe From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 13:21:48 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:21:48 -0600 Subject: How much do Sci-Fi authors earn? Message-ID: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/02/09/how_much_do_science_.html http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/archives/001423.html How Much Does a Science Fiction or Fantasy Writer Make? Several weeks ago I announced that I would be collecting data on genre advances to grab a snapshot of the field. I'd hoped we could get some better data for conversations. I posted a form online with a series of questions that I hoped would allow us to gather some *basic* data with which we could learn something together. (Interesting post - worth checking out.) -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Wed Feb 9 13:48:43 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:48:43 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] > > In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard > Brazee" writes: > > >Trouble is - the enemy will move to the next target while we are worried > > >about fingernail clippers. > > > > > The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more worried > about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. They can do > more damage than the clippers and have worse long term effect, like an > infection after being scratched. Clippers should be allowed onboard to > defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have fingernail clippers! Watch > lose strings on you sweaters!" > -C Not having bothered to ask at the security desk the last time I flew, I'm curious as to whether they allow the good old ball point pen. You know, the kind that come in bags of 20 for $5. Those are rather more deadly than any fingernail clipper or Zippo (or Bic, or even the "turbo" butane lighters) that I've ever seen. "Sit down and shut up or I'll singe your eyebrows and clip little crescent shaped chunks out of your body!" Um, yeah. Now, if someone brandished a ball point at me, and looked like he'd be willing and capable of stabbing me with it, I might be rather more deterred. So, are office supplies banned in general? From daveg at frost.he.net Wed Feb 9 13:51:23 2005 From: daveg at frost.he.net (daveg at frost.he.net) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:51:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> from "MedCat7@aol.com" at Feb 09, 2005 03:19:47 PM Message-ID: <1107985883.8225@frost.he.net> > > In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > > >Trouble is - the enemy will move to the next target while we are worried ? > >about fingernail clippers. > > > > > The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more worried about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. They can do more damage than the clippers and have worse long term effect, like an infection after being scratched. Clippers should be allowed onboard to defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have fingernail clippers! Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" > -C > Clippers? We don't need no steekin' clippers. I wonder if someday I'll be waiting in line at the airport and hear "I'm sorry, sir, but we can't allow shodans past security." When you're a living sword, it's difficult to leave your weapons at home. Dave From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Feb 9 15:30:09 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:30:09 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:37:14 EST." <6.2.0.14.2.20050209143535.034c0960@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <200502092330.j19NUAiU004093@vice-grips.mit.edu> I've heard that, too, although only once on a MUD > At 07:53 02/09/2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > >Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > > > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As > > > I was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > > > >I was given a knife for being Best Man at a wedding. > > I was taught that a gift of a knife could cut a friendship; thus, in my > family, such a gift was always paid for with a token sum (a dime or a > postage stamp or something). > > Has anyone else ever run across that? > > > -- > Regards, Pete > pgranzeau at cox.net > From dusty at sayersnet.com Wed Feb 9 16:43:38 2005 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:43:38 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <000101c50ea6$bb40bff0$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000101c50ea6$bb40bff0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <420AAE3A.3060902@sayersnet.com> Jeff Gibbons wrote: >>As far as gunfights (in the spaghetti western style) there are two >>schools of thought that I have heard; take your time and get a good, >>well aimed shot off, or fire of a quick round in the general >>direction to rattle your opponent, then fire an aimed shot while he >>(or she) is checking for new holes. Discuss. >> Well, the classic duel (at least in my part of the world) is the Jackson-Dickinson duel, in which our illustrious General Jackson allowed Dickinson to shoot first, actually hitting him and doing him a serious, but not fatal, injury, then took all the time in the world to aim and bring his enemy low. (Actually, Jackson cheated, as his gun did not fully fire when he pulled the trigger, after which he re-cocked it and fired, in violation of the Code Duello--his own second ought to have shot him. At least, that is what many Jackson enemies report--apparently no-one at the duel itself felt the need to object, including Mr Dickinson, who, of all people, might have cause to be offended.) -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do.' -- Steven Brust From dar at horusinc.com Wed Feb 9 17:21:22 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:21:22 -0600 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502100121.j1A1LNdd013052@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> >Um, yeah. Now, if someone brandished a ball point at me, and looked like >he'd be willing and capable of stabbing me with it, I might be rather more >deterred. Ok, now you want to know my other funny? I also happen to carry a Rotring Tri-Pen on me at all times also. It's two colors of ink, plus a pencil - all wrapped up in solid brass housing that weighs 48 grams. I honestly don't think I could ask for a better kubotan. I could ram it through your temple and sign my name on your forehead with it. Wonderful German engineering... And I can get it inside a courthouse. I bought the darn thing from *Levengers*... David From dar at horusinc.com Wed Feb 9 17:32:24 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:32:24 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050209182412.18644.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502100132.j1A1WQGS136840@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> > > Heh. I debated on carrying a knife at the last wedding I went to. As I > > was presiding over it, I decided to leave it with my street cloths. > > I think Miss Manners would have approved, at least if you're talking > about wearing the knife openly (unlike the wedding David mentioned), > though it may depend on the religion or lack thereof and on the > social circles. You can always say you're Sikh... But I agree, nobody was wearing bowie knives - It was the regular assortment of Spyderco's and Balisongs with a couple of big-ass lockblades in the mix - and my Tarani Karambit draw a fair amount of interest. I digress. > > As far as gunfights (in the spaghetti western style) there are two > > schools of thought that I have heard; take your time and get a good, > > well aimed shot off, or fire of a quick round in the general direction > > to rattle your opponent, then fire an aimed shot while he (or she) is > > checking for new holes. Discuss. > >Okay. Stay out of gunfights. In particular, stay out of movie-style >gunfights. You can get hurt. Stay the heck out of fights period. The best fight is one you successfully ran away from. (Rule 1.5 at our school - it's a corollary to Rule 1: Don't get hit.) But I digress again. Always aim. This isn't the wild west. Even if it's a bad job of aiming you want to be able to honestly say to yourself and the police that you aimed at the target. Rounds travel a long way, a long, long way. It's bad enough on your psyche if you kill someone on purpose - killing someone by accident is much, much worse. David From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 9 17:41:27 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:41:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <200502100132.j1A1WQGS136840@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200502100132.j1A1WQGS136840@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, David Rodemaker wrote: > Always aim. This isn't the wild west. Even if it's a bad job of aiming you > want to be able to honestly say to yourself and the police that you aimed at > the target. Rounds travel a long way, a long, long way. I'm learning a lot of stuff I didn't know I didn't know lately on the list. Thanks, everybody. From ginni.berger at juno.com Wed Feb 9 17:11:26 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:11:26 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) Message-ID: <20050209.204042.3392.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:19:47 -0500 MedCat7 at aol.com writes: > The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more > worried about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. > They can do more damage than the clippers and have worse long term > effect, like an infection after being scratched. Clippers should be > allowed onboard to defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have > fingernail clippers! Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" > -C > > There's also the fact you can put poisons on fingernails, scratch someone and kill them that way. Very popular in some books I've read. ;-) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal From books at bofh.com Wed Feb 9 17:47:21 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:47:21 -0700 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <20050209.204042.3392.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> References: <20050209.204042.3392.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <20050210014721.GA10983@bofh.com> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 08:11:26PM -0500, ginnilee p berger wrote: > There's also the fact you can put poisons on fingernails, scratch someone > and kill them that way. Very popular in some books I've read. ;-) Sure...like that Zelany hack. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 04:50:25 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:50:25 -0700 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <20050209.204042.3392.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <000201c50f6f$17e5cd90$667ba8c0@Dad133> ginnilee p berger wrote: > On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:19:47 -0500 MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >> The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more >> worried about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. >> They can do more damage than the clippers and have worse long term >> effect, like an infection after being scratched. Clippers should be >> allowed onboard to defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have >> fingernail clippers! Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" -C >> >> > > There's also the fact you can put poisons on fingernails, scratch > someone and kill them that way. Very popular in some books I've read. > ;-) Remember how The Dead Man lost his fight in _Call Him Conrad_? Was Zelazny discussing something that can happen today? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 10 05:59:46 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:59:46 -0700 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) References: <000201c50f6f$17e5cd90$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 5:50 AM Subject: RE: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) > ginnilee p berger wrote: > > On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:19:47 -0500 MedCat7 at aol.com writes: > >> The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more > >> worried about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. > >> They can do more damage than the clippers and have worse long term > >> effect, like an infection after being scratched. Clippers should be > >> allowed onboard to defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have > >> fingernail clippers! Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" -C > >> > >> > > > > There's also the fact you can put poisons on fingernails, scratch > > someone and kill them that way. Very popular in some books I've read. > > ;-) > > Remember how The Dead Man lost his fight in _Call Him Conrad_? Was Zelazny > discussing something that can happen today? > > Lets just hope that no one at the Dept of Homeland Security watched the movie Daredevil, where Colin Farrell kills the lady next to him with a peanut. Jeff G. From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 06:54:51 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:54:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <1107877091.2781.139.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050210145452.39445.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Napoleon also had, at least at the beginning of his career, more troops then any of his adversaries. His "technological" feat decimated a whole generation of French men... Imagine what GWB could do if he was able to force every american male age 14-30 into the military (and then quickly dispell this image from your mind because you'll have nightmares). Steve Brust wrote: Just to be clear, when I said, "technology" I was also including discoveries in tactics; Napoleon, to give the classic example, didn't have any weapon drastically different from his predecessors, but he formed his columns in a new way. I consider that an advance in technology. From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 07:25:36 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:25:36 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <20050210145452.39445.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050210145452.39445.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:54:51 -0800 (PST), S SHafer wrote: > Steve Brust wrote: >> >> Just to be clear, when I said, "technology" I was also including >> discoveries in tactics; Napoleon, to give the classic example, didn't >> have any weapon drastically different from his predecessors, but he >> formed his columns in a new way. I consider that an advance in >> technology. > > Napoleon also had, at least at the beginning of his career, more troops > then any of his adversaries. His "technological" feat decimated a whole > generation of French men... Imagine what GWB could do if he was able to > force every american male age 14-30 into the military (and then quickly > dispell this image from your mind because you'll have nightmares). One "technology" that hadn't been used before was the huge citizen army. It worked well for a century when battles were fought by rows of people with muskets and rifles firing at other rows. In the American Civil War, the South was successful for a while using tactics to force the North to fight on their terms. But then Grant decided that it was better to pay the cost and force the issue. In WWI this got bogged down so that neither side could win on the front. GW couldn't really use this today. Masses of men are now just targets. More often than not, great war machines won by being more mobile than their opponents. The Romans and The Mogols were great at this. But for a while, masses of men worked best - until technology changed. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 10 07:31:01 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:31:01 -0500 Subject: Napoleon In-Reply-To: <20050210145452.39445.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: S Shafer wrote: > Napoleon also had, at least at the beginning of his career, > more troops then any of his adversaries. His "technological" > feat decimated a whole generation of French men... Imagine > what GWB could do if he was able to force every american male > age 14-30 into the military (and then quickly dispell this > image from your mind because you'll have nightmares). There's a chilling (pun intended) map(1) that depicts Napoleon's March to and Retreat from Moscow. It shows the size of his army along the way. It speaks volumes. 400,000+ troops left Paris. 10,000 returned. What a waste. Granted, we no longer recruit troops to be literal cannon fodder, but . Casey (1) http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/minard From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 07:39:55 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050210153956.98316.qmail@web53406.mail.yahoo.com> I disagree. Yes, nuclear technology can be used as a hedge against huge armies, but for offensive warfare against (almost) equals the number of troops can make a huge difference. Also, since the use of nuclear weapons on ones own territory to destroy an invading army is unthinkable, a huge invasion force would still pose a threat even to nuclear powers. Huge armies are still intimidating. Why do you think we won't even consider invading North Korea? It's because North Korea, dispite the poor shape of it's populace, has a large army armed with biologically equipped artillary. Overwhelming numbers are no longer as important as they were to Napolean, but the US military needs more troops if it is going to take on an additional campaign (read Iran, Syria or both). As an aside, World War I was a product of new technologies not yet being understood and of defensive weapondry having outstripped offensive weapons. By World War II (and lasting until the present), offensive weapondry overpowered defense. Howard Brazee wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:54:51 -0800 (PST), S SHafer wrote: > Steve Brust wrote: >> >> Just to be clear, when I said, "technology" I was also including >> discoveries in tactics; Napoleon, to give the classic example, didn't >> have any weapon drastically different from his predecessors, but he >> formed his columns in a new way. I consider that an advance in >> technology. > > Napoleon also had, at least at the beginning of his career, more troops > then any of his adversaries. His "technological" feat decimated a whole > generation of French men... Imagine what GWB could do if he was able to > force every american male age 14-30 into the military (and then quickly > dispell this image from your mind because you'll have nightmares). One "technology" that hadn't been used before was the huge citizen army. It worked well for a century when battles were fought by rows of people with muskets and rifles firing at other rows. In the American Civil War, the South was successful for a while using tactics to force the North to fight on their terms. But then Grant decided that it was better to pay the cost and force the issue. In WWI this got bogged down so that neither side could win on the front. GW couldn't really use this today. Masses of men are now just targets. More often than not, great war machines won by being more mobile than their opponents. The Romans and The Mogols were great at this. But for a while, masses of men worked best - until technology changed. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 10 07:40:01 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:40:01 -0700 Subject: Napoleon In-Reply-To: <01LKMSTTUQQC0001WA@chud.net> References: <20050210145452.39445.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> <01LKMSTTUQQC0001WA@chud.net> Message-ID: <20050210154000.GA16576@bofh.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:31:01AM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > There's a chilling (pun intended) map(1) that depicts Napoleon's March to > and Retreat from Moscow. It shows the size of his army along the way. It > speaks volumes. 400,000+ troops left Paris. 10,000 returned. What a > waste. Granted, we no longer recruit troops to be literal cannon fodder, > but . > > Casey > > (1) http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/minard For those of you who haven't seen it before this is impressive for 2 reasons. 1) It shows just how badly things went 2) It is an amazing map in that it displays a large amount of diverse information in an intuitive form. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 07:50:51 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:50:51 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) Message-ID: <170B6E0D.2BF766AA.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/9/2005 8:11:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ginnilee p berger writes: > >There's also the fact you can put poisons on fingernails, scratch someone >and kill them that way. Very popular in some books I've read. ;-) > >Ginnilee >Lady Lavender of Teal > Interesting. See, I was thinking of maybe poison lipstick (the wearer could have some protectant underneith) and kiss the pilot. -C From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 08:02:04 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:02:04 EST Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <1ad.311e2a50.2f3cdf7c@aol.com> In a message dated 02/10/2005 10:29:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: GW couldn't really use this today. Masses of men are now just targets. . This may not necessarily be accurate. We were able to defeat and take over Iraq in a short period of time. The problem is that it would take much more troops to actually hold as much land as Iraq encompasses. If you were to study the Old West, you would find a very similar situation to what we face in Iraq. Indifferent, collaborative, or fearful populace, and a small group of violent individuals able to escape confinement because of the sheer size of the country and the absence of widespread police or law enforcement. As the Western population grew and technological advances such as the telephone, telegraph and railroad came into use. Russia ran into a very similiar problem in Afganistan, (which we are facing now also). John D. Barbato, OD From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 08:05:45 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:05:45 -0700 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <170B6E0D.2BF766AA.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <170B6E0D.2BF766AA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:50:51 -0500, wrote: >> There's also the fact you can put poisons on fingernails, scratch >> someone >> and kill them that way. Very popular in some books I've read. >> >> Ginnilee >> Lady Lavender of Teal >> > Interesting. See, I was thinking of maybe poison lipstick (the wearer > could have some protectant underneith) and kiss the pilot. Artistically, this is quite attractive. In real life, it doesn't make work. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 08:17:30 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:17:30 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <1ad.311e2a50.2f3cdf7c@aol.com> References: <1ad.311e2a50.2f3cdf7c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:02:04 EST, wrote: >> GW couldn't really use this today. Masses of men are now just targets. >This may not necessarily be accurate. We were able to defeat and take > over > Iraq in a short period of time. The problem is that it would take much > more > troops to actually hold as much land as Iraq encompasses. If you were to > study the > Old West, you would find a very similar situation to what we face in > Iraq. > Indifferent, collaborative, or fearful populace, and a small group of > violent > individuals able to escape confinement because of the sheer size of the > country > and the absence of widespread police or law enforcement. As the Western > population grew and technological advances such as the telephone, > telegraph and > railroad came into use. Russia ran into a very similiar problem in > Afganistan, > (which we are facing now also). This is a huge problem. The North could win the war against the South by having twice the resources. But if the South had decided to fight after the end of the war in a guerrilla war, they couldn't have been stopped. Occupying forces have two choices - win the hearts of the enemy or terrorize them. Neither choice is easy (neither will be possible in Iraq). We didn't need the masses to conquer Iraq, and even if we had the masses, we couldn't stop the current fighting. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 08:27:36 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:27:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Napoleon In-Reply-To: <200502101531.j1AFVUJI009662@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> References: <200502101531.j1AFVUJI009662@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: > There's a chilling (pun intended) map(1) that depicts Napoleon's March to > and Retreat from Moscow. It shows the size of his army along the way. It > speaks volumes. 400,000+ troops left Paris. 10,000 returned. What a > waste. Granted, we no longer recruit troops to be literal cannon fodder, > but . I have that in poster form - anybody who can convince me they need it more than I do is welcome to it, esp. if they can pick it up around Stanford... From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 08:12:54 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:12:54 -0600 Subject: Napoleon In-Reply-To: References: <200502101531.j1AFVUJI009662@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <420B8806.4030900@comcast.net> Casey Rousseau said: >>There's a chilling (pun intended) map(1) that depicts Napoleon's March to >>and Retreat from Moscow. It shows the size of his army along the way. It >>speaks volumes. 400,000+ troops left Paris. 10,000 returned. What a >>waste. Granted, we no longer recruit troops to be literal cannon fodder, >>but . >> >> We have that--it's one of the great visual aids of all time. It shows troop strength, movements, and the outcome at just a fleeting glance. Mia From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 10 08:54:01 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:54:01 -0500 Subject: Napoleon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart wrote: > I have that in poster form - anybody who can convince me they > need it more than I do is welcome to it, esp. if they can > pick it up around Stanford... If you must have the poster, but fail to convince Philip that you need it, the site I linked to belongs to Edward Tufte, who writes and self-publishes several books on information design, which he gives away along with said poster to attendees of his seminars on the same topic. If you click on the link to posters and graph paper, you can get the map either in French only or French with an English translation. The seminar is pricey if all you want is the poster. I enjoyed it. Casey From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 09:00:00 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:00:00 EST Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <5b.63124f9e.2f3ced10@aol.com> In a message dated 02/10/2005 11:21:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: We didn't need the masses to conquer Iraq, and even if we had the masses, we couldn't stop the current fighting. I guess this is what I disagree with. More troops, better communication and a willing, helpful population would allow us to 'win' the peace in Iraq. Or maybe you are right because I am setting conditions. As it stands now, no, more troops won't help without the other two. John D. Barbato, OD From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 09:06:04 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:06:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) In-Reply-To: <5b.63124f9e.2f3ced10@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050210170605.3932.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> More troops would have allowed the US to reestablish the rule of law more quickly. Once the rule of law broke down and looting began, then the Iraqi people's trust in the US diminished as well. An effective rule of law would have also denied the insurgency time and resources and prevented them from becoming as effective as they have been. Bato001 at aol.com wrote:In a message dated 02/10/2005 11:21:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: We didn't need the masses to conquer Iraq, and even if we had the masses, we couldn't stop the current fighting. I guess this is what I disagree with. More troops, better communication and a willing, helpful population would allow us to 'win' the peace in Iraq. Or maybe you are right because I am setting conditions. As it stands now, no, more troops won't help without the other two. John D. Barbato, OD From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 09:11:54 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050210170605.3932.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050210170605.3932.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, S SHafer wrote: > [...] An effective rule of law would have also denied the insurgency > time and resources and prevented them from becoming as effective as they > have been. [snippage to detoppost] In particular more troops would have allowed us to secure the weapons depots which have fueled the insurgency. Given the WMD justification for the invasion, this failure to secure the depots strikes me as unconscionable. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Feb 10 09:41:23 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:41:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and such) Message-ID: <200502101741.j1AHfNam014997@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> S SHafer wrote: > More troops would have allowed the US to reestablish the rule of law more quickly. Once the rule of law broke down and looting began, then the Iraqi people's trust in the US diminished as well. Considering how much trust in the US they had to begin with, I was not shocked at the outcome of our "war" there. Given our plans for the region, insurgency was a rather foregone conclusion. > Bato001 at aol.com wrote:In a message dated 02/10/2005 11:21:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, > howard at brazee.net writes: > I guess this is what I disagree with. More troops, better communication and a > willing, helpful population It's the latter that we never had, and wouldn't even if we'd had more troops. Yes, it would certainly have helped, but it was never really in question. Trying to not get TOO involved in this one, Chris "A war is when *two* armies are fighting." - Bill Hicks From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 10:05:09 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:05:09 EST Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: In a message dated 02/10/2005 12:23:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes: snippage to detoppost] In particular more troops would have allowed us to secure the weapons depots which have fueled the insurgency. Given the WMD justification for the invasion, this failure to secure the depots strikes me as unconscionable. who says the weapons came from inside? Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia--Iraqs borders are so insecure North Korea could be shipping nuclear bombs into the country. John D. Barbato, OD From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Feb 10 10:07:48 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:07:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > who says the weapons came from inside? Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia--Iraqs > borders are so insecure North Korea could be shipping nuclear bombs into the > country. Furthermore, intelligence on the location of every single cache was hardly complete -- ordnance was tucked around the country like bottles of booze in an alcoholic's home. I'd be surprised if there weren't caches whole locations were only known to like 3 dudes. pe From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 10 10:26:38 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:26:38 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 01:05:09PM -0500, Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/10/2005 12:23:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, > philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes: > snippage to detoppost] > > In particular more troops would have allowed us to secure the weapons > depots which have fueled the insurgency. Given the WMD justification > for the invasion, this failure to secure the depots strikes me as > unconscionable. > >who says the weapons came from inside? Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia--Iraqs > >borders are so insecure North Korea could be shipping nuclear bombs into the > >country. But they weren't. Everyone agrees on this point now...there were no WMDs in Iraq. Even the latest US inspectors. Even the current administration. The fact that a portion of the American public still believes there were WMDs is a greater condemnation of the American public than the administration. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 10:45:54 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:45:54 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:26:38 -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > But they weren't. Everyone agrees on this point now...there were > no WMDs in Iraq. Even the latest US inspectors. Even the current > administration. > The fact that a portion of the American public still believes there > were WMDs is a greater condemnation of the American public than > the administration. I wouldn't be surprised if they were working on WMD. I would be surprised if they were doing so internally. With all the inspections and such, there really wasn't much of an upside for Saddam to that. Instead, send some scientists and some oil deals to a different country and share development where it is safe. If I were a developing country, I would get rid of my WMD the same time as the developed countries got rid of theirs. But if I were subject to inspections looking for mine, I would develop mine elsewhere. Obviously attacking Iraq did not get rid of any caches. Question is - is that because they don't exist, or is it because we looked in the wrong country? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Feb 10 10:59:38 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:59:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: @> Obviously attacking Iraq did not get rid of any caches. Question is - is @> that because they don't exist, or is it because we looked in the wrong @> country? It's because they don't exist. Do you have any other questions? Alright, that was a bit flippant. Let me break it down for you. 1) You can't just export some people without leaving a trail, and that trail would have been found by now, because there's been /intensive/ investigation of the area by everybody in the universe over the past several years, and particularly during the occupation. The current administration would leap at the chance for even a shred of credibility at this point. But nothing has been found. No records of Iraqi scientists being smuggled out of the country or suitcases of cash being mysteriously exchanged by people in sunglasses in the middle of the desert. Nothing. Because there was nothing to find. It is always possible to miss something, but after a certain amount of investigation you have to go with the probabilities, and those are now so heavily weighted on the side of "no WMDs" that even the most rabid proponents of the WMD theory in the administration have backed away from it, whistling and looking in a different direction. 2) Very specific claims were made by the administration. Not "they might possibly have some kind of research program, maybe, that might produce a weapon in twenty years". No. "They have bombs, and we know exactly where they are." Lies. Filthy, stinking lies that got thousands and thousands of innocent people killed. 3) We can't afford to go to war with a third country at this point. We do not have the necessary resources. So if that scenario really was true, then the current administration didn't just screw us but /completely/ screwed us by attacking the wrong country. From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 11:00:42 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:00:42 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:57:54 -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > We didn't look in either of the countries that admit to having > nuclear weapon capacity (Iran, N. Korea), and one who TOLD US they > were trying to (and have reportedly succeeded) build weapons. (N. Korea) > Instead, we invaded Iraq. > This is not logical. Politics rarely is, especially when you really want to find a bad guy to hurt. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 11:05:11 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:05:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/10/2005 12:23:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, > philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes: > snippage to detoppost] > >> In particular more troops would have allowed us to secure the weapons >> depots which have fueled the insurgency. Given the WMD justification >> for the invasion, this failure to secure the depots strikes me as >> unconscionable. > who says the weapons came from inside? Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia--Iraqs > borders are so insecure North Korea could be shipping nuclear bombs into the > country. That would be the main-stream media reporting on what the military says. There was a little scandal before the election about hundreds of tons of high explosives useful for, among other things, building atomic bombs. Our soldiers saw the depot in question being emptied but they didn't have time/personnel/orders to guard it. The IEDs killing our guys and gals recently are thought to be as deadly as they are because of the use of those high explosives. Why go shopping out-of-country when the corner depot is full of nasty stuff you're trained to use? I'm dropping out of this conversation because the whole issue drives me bonkers. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 11:06:21 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:06:21 EST Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <1a2.2e4903fc.2f3d0aad@aol.com> In a message dated 02/10/2005 1:49:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: But they weren't. Everyone agrees on this point now...there were > no WMDs in Iraq. Even the latest US inspectors. Even the current > administration. > The fact that a portion of the American public still believes there > were WMDs is a greater condemnation of the American public than > the administration. I wouldn't be surprised if they were working on WMD. I would be surprised if they were doing so internally. With all the inspections and such, there really wasn't much of an upside for Saddam to that. Instead, send some scientists and some oil deals to a different country and share development where it is safe. If I were a developing country, I would get rid of my WMD the same time as the developed countries got rid of theirs. But if I were subject to inspections looking for mine, I would develop mine elsewhere. Obviously attacking Iraq did not get rid of any caches. Question is - is that because they don't exist, or is it because we looked in the wrong country? Not a bad point. I have to be honest with you, I doubt they ever had the mass quantities of WMD that we were led to believe they had. It doesn't mean I'm right, I just don't see any evidence. John D. Barbato, OD From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Feb 10 11:10:53 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <200502101910.j1AJAram025074@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> My, we're just a wee bit off-topic now, aren't we? :) Howard Brazee wrote: > If I were a developing country, I would get rid of my WMD the same time as > the developed countries got rid of theirs. So, that would be "not any time soon" then, yes? There are quite a few developed contries (including our own) that have, or are still developing, WMD. > Obviously attacking Iraq did not get rid of any caches. Question is - is > that because they don't exist, or is it because we looked in the wrong > country? Heh. Of course Iraq had WMD. If you want proof, ask the US to show you the receipts. Whether they have them now, or are developing them somewhere else, is speculation. Likely as not they don't have much, if any, given how much everyone has been looking for them. :) Chris From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 11:13:58 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:13:58 EST Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: In a message dated 02/10/2005 2:06:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes: >> In particular more troops would have allowed us to secure the weapons >> depots which have fueled the insurgency. Given the WMD justification >> for the invasion, this failure to secure the depots strikes me as >> unconscionable. > who says the weapons came from inside? Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia--Iraqs > borders are so insecure North Korea could be shipping nuclear bombs into the > country. That would be the main-stream media reporting on what the military says. There was a little scandal before the election about hundreds of tons of high explosives useful for, among other things, building atomic bombs. Our soldiers saw the depot in question being emptied but they didn't have time/personnel/orders to guard it. The IEDs killing our guys and gals recently are thought to be as deadly as they are because of the use of those high explosives. Why go shopping out-of-country when the corner depot is full of nasty stuff you're trained to use? I'm dropping out of this conversation because the whole issue drives me bonkers. Aw come on. Your no fun!!! Look, we are having a wonderful discussion, with no arguments. When was the last time that happened????? John D. Barbato, OD From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 11:15:19 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:15:19 EST Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <13c.c9dc74c.2f3d0cc7@aol.com> In a message dated 02/10/2005 2:12:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: > Obviously attacking Iraq did not get rid of any caches. Question is - is > that because they don't exist, or is it because we looked in the wrong > country? Heh. Of course Iraq had WMD. If you want proof, ask the US to show you the receipts. Whether they have them now, or are developing them somewhere else, is speculation. Likely as not they don't have much, if any, given how much everyone has been looking for them. :) Chris :) :) :) John D. Barbato, OD From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 10 11:19:06 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:19:06 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:57:54 -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > > > We didn't look in either of the countries that admit to having > > nuclear weapon capacity (Iran, N. Korea), and one who TOLD US they > > were trying to (and have reportedly succeeded) build weapons. (N. Korea) > > Instead, we invaded Iraq. > > This is not logical. Sure it is. Korea isn't near any countries that produce oil, thus can't affect profits for the oil companies. Jeff From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Feb 10 11:24:34 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:24:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > Sure it is. Korea isn't near any countries that produce oil, thus can't > affect profits for the oil companies. On a slightly less tinfoil note, NK does happen to hold the entire city of Seoul hostage, and the state serves an important buffer purpose between the Westernized SK and China. Saying 'LOL OIL LOL' is all well and good when you're trying to keep the beat with the rest of Team Lefty, but it does tend to obscure a goodly amount of geopolitical realities. pe From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 11:40:16 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:40:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > > > Sure it is. Korea isn't near any countries that produce oil, thus can't > > affect profits for the oil companies. > > On a slightly less tinfoil note, NK does happen to hold the entire city of > Seoul hostage, and the state serves an important buffer purpose between > the Westernized SK and China. Saying 'LOL OIL LOL' is all well and good > when you're trying to keep the beat with the rest of Team Lefty, but it > does tend to obscure a goodly amount of geopolitical realities. Can't. Get. Away. Of course we can't waltz into NK. But, anyway, even if I think that those on the pro-torture side of the aisle (see the Gonzalez confirmation or http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/02/like_something_.html) will acknowledge that we would have been much less likely to have gone into Iraq if it weren't for its oil and its proximity to a lot more oil, I don't think oil was high on the list of reasons we went in. That list would be to establish permanent bases there (since OBL forced us to abandon our positions in SA) with an eye towards Iran etc, to show our willingness to use force post-9/11, to get the illusory WMDs, to establish a friendly govt in a critical region, to establish a friendly democracy in a critical region as a way of spreading democracy, to stop the less-than-ideal permanent state of siege and quash a horrible dictator, and to support our democratic ally Israel. Insuring access to oil was probably somewhere towards the end of the list. The whole mess wouldn't have arisen without the oil though. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 10 11:41:28 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:41:28 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gomi no Sensei" To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > > > Sure it is. Korea isn't near any countries that produce oil, thus can't > > affect profits for the oil companies. > > On a slightly less tinfoil note, NK does happen to hold the entire city of > Seoul hostage, and the state serves an important buffer purpose between > the Westernized SK and China. Saying 'LOL OIL LOL' is all well and good > when you're trying to keep the beat with the rest of Team Lefty, but it > does tend to obscure a goodly amount of geopolitical realities. > > pe > See, this is why you shouldn't stray off topic. People get upset, and start name calling. Team Lefty? I have friends serving in SK right now, if the North decides to come south their life expectancy is 16 minutes. I am more than aware of the reality of that situation. I have spent time in almost every stinking rathole in the world at the behest of both Democrat and Republican Presidents, and noticed no difference between the two. If I try to interject with a humorous remark to lighten the mood, don't presume to lecture me about "obscuring a goodly amount of geopolitical realities" Lets try to get this list back on topic, before I resume this discussion with a broadsword. Jeff From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Feb 10 11:43:02 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > acknowledge that we would have been much less likely to have gone > into Iraq if it weren't for its oil and its proximity to a lot more oil, > I don't think oil was high on the list of reasons we went in. That list > would be to establish permanent bases there (since OBL forced us to > abandon our positions in SA) with an eye towards Iran etc, to show our > willingness to use force post-9/11, to get the illusory WMDs, to establish > a friendly govt in a critical region, to establish a friendly democracy > in a critical region as a way of spreading democracy, to stop the > less-than-ideal permanent state of siege and quash a horrible dictator, > and to support our democratic ally Israel. Insuring access to oil was > probably somewhere towards the end of the list. The whole mess wouldn't > have arisen without the oil though. Oh, by all means. I don't consider securing vital resources an inappropriate US priority. As you say, it's pretty far down the list, but it's on it. pe From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Feb 10 11:44:01 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:44:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Jeff G. wrote: > Lets try to get this list back on topic Agreed. pe From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Feb 10 11:46:35 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:46:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: @> Oh, by all means. I don't consider securing vital resources an inappropriate @> US priority. As you say, it's pretty far down the list, but it's on it. It is pretty inappropriate when those resources belong to other people. From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Feb 10 11:47:06 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:47:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: @> > Lets try to get this list back on topic @> @> Agreed. Ok, fine. From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 11:48:09 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:48:09 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:24:34 -0800 (PST), Gomi no Sensei wrote: >> Sure it is. Korea isn't near any countries that produce oil, thus can't >> affect profits for the oil companies. > On a slightly less tinfoil note, NK does happen to hold the entire city > of > Seoul hostage, and the state serves an important buffer purpose between > the Westernized SK and China. Saying 'LOL OIL LOL' is all well and good > when you're trying to keep the beat with the rest of Team Lefty, but it > does tend to obscure a goodly amount of geopolitical realities. President George Bush (The Dad) understood things better. Bogeymen are useful. When there's an obvious bogeyman close at home, it's hard to target the U.S. as the #1 enemy. Sure there were humanitarian reasons for overthrowing Saddam, but with that bogeyman gone, the Muslim world found another one. The U.S. North Korea is sad - but it is useful for our policies. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Feb 10 12:16:49 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:16:49 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050210201649.GQ8732@infodancer.org> I was hoping to avoid this argument, but it looks like it's going to happen whether I like it or not. On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:13:58PM -0500, Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/10/2005 2:06:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes: > >> In particular more troops would have allowed us to secure the weapons > >> depots which have fueled the insurgency. Given the WMD justification > >> for the invasion, this failure to secure the depots strikes me as > >> unconscionable. > > who says the weapons came from inside? Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia--Iraqs > > borders are so insecure North Korea could be shipping nuclear bombs into the > > country. > That would be the main-stream media reporting on what the military says. > There was a little scandal before the election about hundreds of tons of > high explosives useful for, among other things, building atomic bombs. > Our soldiers saw the depot in question being emptied but they didn't have > time/personnel/orders to guard it. If you are referring to the incident I think you are referring to, it's been debunked quite thoroughly. The reports you are referring to were from the second group to guard the site; the first group had already secured the location and removed the really dangerous stuff. The media reported it as "tons of missing explosives", but in fact, they weren't missing. The media was asking the wrong people where they were. > The IEDs killing our guys and gals > recently are thought to be as deadly as they are because of the > use of those high explosives. Some of the detailed reports about the Fallujah action discuss the supply train of material for car bombs and suicide bombs. They were, in fact, coming from neighboring countries, and one of the objectives in Fallujah was to roll up those supply lines. > Why go shopping out-of-country when the corner depot is full of nasty > stuff you're trained to use? This is true enough. Saddam had a lot of time to prepare for a resistance, and it would be silly to assume we can find and secure it all. But your specific examples are somewhat lacking. > Aw come on. Your no fun!!! Look, we are having a wonderful discussion, with > no arguments. When was the last time that happened????? Choirs make for great music, but poor fact-finding... If you are relying on the mainstream media for facts about events in Iraq, you are NOT getting good information. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Thu Feb 10 12:17:55 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:17:55 +0100 Subject: money! In-Reply-To: <61666530.3D001291.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <61666530.3D001291.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050210201733.GH34813@weller-fahy.com> * MedCat7 at aol.com [2005-02-04 18:53 +0100]: > Ok, guys, I've had the stickers for 2 weeks now and I have only seen a > little over a 1/4 of the money. If there are trust issues, like > thinking the stickers aren't real and I am going to scam you (don't > worry, no one messed with my head and I am not going to take of with > the Jhereg treasury). I have gotten several replies from people who > got the stickers. You won't get your stickers unless I have your > money. I don't mean to sound like a bitch, but that $200 could go > toward my wedding dress or something (like stupid loans). Thank you > all who sent your money already. Just wanted to let you know that I got my stickers today... they're great! Thanks again for doing this. Oh. Yeah, I'm in the AF. Can't seem to convince myself to get out. ;] Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 10 12:16:33 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:16:33 -0700 Subject: War in Dragaera In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:58:39 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: >> Oil rich countries also have a bunch of dissatisfied unfulfilled youth >> who >> are willing to become terrorists. Poor despotic countries have better >> things to do than to export terrorism across the world. > Well, Afghanistan is a small exception... And I read that there are more > middle-class well-educated terrorists than otherwise. Engineers are > much more dangerous than street youths. Dragaera isn't a wealthy country, except among the Nobilities. But in today's world it is worth thinking about what creates dissatisfaction that leads to war. And then use such motivations in stories. Steve has already explored what happens when a dissatisfied merchant class feels picked upon, and I expect to see him continue this. Historically, times of great increase in the wealth of the middle class tend to be the most likely times to have revolution. But I also see Dragaerans chomping at the bit to be important. Sethra the Younger wants to achieve greatness by being a conquerer. Maybe they don't see the real threat - but they are wealthy and bored. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 12:36:18 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:36:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050210201649.GQ8732@infodancer.org> References: <20050210201649.GQ8732@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Matthew Hunter wrote: > I was hoping to avoid this argument, but it looks like it's going > to happen whether I like it or not. > > [snippage] > > If you are referring to the incident I think you are referring > to, it's been debunked quite thoroughly. Yes, but the debunking was then debunked. Back to stuff we can get our hands on, like Paarfi's motivations. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Feb 10 12:38:00 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:38:00 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 12:48:09PM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > President George Bush (The Dad) understood things better. Bogeymen are > useful. When there's an obvious bogeyman close at home, it's hard to > target the U.S. as the #1 enemy. Sure there were humanitarian reasons > for overthrowing Saddam, but with that bogeyman gone, the Muslim world > found another one. The U.S. The Muslim world was more than a little peeved at us before we knocked Saddam's tinpot dictatorship over. > North Korea is sad - but it is useful for our policies. North Korea has just announced that they have nuclear weapons. In my opinion, they are not useful; they are a threat. If we leave tinpot dictatorships alone long enough, they will do exactly this. If we leave Iran alone long enough, they will do this. (Listen closely to the negotiations with "old Europe" on the Iran front; note how Iran is playing for time; note how "containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Feb 10 12:43:16 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:43:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <200502102043.j1AKhGam003522@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Back to stuff we can get our hands on, like Paarfi's motivations. Ha! That's an easy one: Money and women (well, mostly the latter, according to Ilen, a Magian). Chris From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 12:46:31 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:46:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Matthew Hunter wrote: > [...] "containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). Wouldn't a Muslim nuclear power have to make the hajj and have trouble crossing the border? Actually, what about our nuclear weapons under the control of practising Muslims - guess they are Muslim nuclear weapons and should make the hajj. Since the new budget axes 10k border guards, maybe they'll manage to exit and enter our country at least. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 10 12:50:28 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <200502102043.j1AKhGam003522@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200502102043.j1AKhGam003522@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > Back to stuff we can get our hands on, like Paarfi's motivations. > > Ha! That's an easy one: Money and women (well, mostly > the latter, according to Ilen, a Magian). Ah! So that's why he's managed not to get dueled to death by Aliera and others. Actually, Aliera probably isn't offended by anything in the Paarfiad, is she? Except maybe the part in _TPG_ where Sethra says how fun she is to bait. Probably that led to an offer of a duel diffused by a distraction, though. I wonder if Sethra ever arranges the distraction in advance... From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Feb 10 14:14:02 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:14:02 -0800 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:19:47 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: > >>Trouble is - the enemy will move to the next target while we are worried ? >>about fingernail clippers. >> >> >The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more worried about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. They can do more damage than the clippers and have worse long term effect, like an infection after being scratched. Clippers should be allowed onboard to defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have fingernail clippers! Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" >-C We recently flew cross country. My daughter realised at the last minute that she had a big (3-4 inches) "safety" pin attached to her shirt. She slipped it off and dropped it in my bag. Nobody noticed. One bend, and I'd have had a nice stabbing weapon. Our airline security is a joke. From rct9911 at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 16:56:44 2005 From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:56:44 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 12:48:09PM -0700, Howard Brazee > wrote: >> President George Bush (The Dad) understood things better. Bogeymen are >> useful. When there's an obvious bogeyman close at home, it's hard to >> target the U.S. as the #1 enemy. Sure there were humanitarian reasons >> for overthrowing Saddam, but with that bogeyman gone, the Muslim world >> found another one. The U.S. > > The Muslim world was more than a little peeved at us before we > knocked Saddam's tinpot dictatorship over. > >> North Korea is sad - but it is useful for our policies. > > North Korea has just announced that they have nuclear weapons. > In my opinion, they are not useful; they are a threat. If we > leave tinpot dictatorships alone long enough, they will do > exactly this. If we leave Iran alone long enough, they will do > this. (Listen closely to the negotiations with "old Europe" on > the Iran front; note how Iran is playing for time; note how > "containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). > Do exactly - what? Develop nuclear weapons? How does that make them any more of a threat than, say, the United States? What has North Korea done by the way of invading sovereign nations, human rights violations, etc., that the U.S. hasn't? If I were a developing nation in a troubled region, I would certainly want some nuclear power, if only to protect me from what the big guns like the U.S. and its various cronies might do to me. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Feb 10 12:12:07 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:12:07 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> Message-ID: <1108066327.2781.319.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 16:56, Rebecca wrote: > > Do exactly - what? Develop nuclear weapons? How does that make them any more > of a threat than, say, the United States? You keep forgetting that the United States only uses force in the defense of poor, helpless innocents; or to protect the world from bullies. People always seem to forget that. Can't think why. But I know it's true, because they said so on Fox news. From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 10 17:52:55 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:52:55 -0700 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050211015255.GA22884@bofh.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:14:02PM -0800, lazarus wrote: > Our airline security is a joke. This is not exactly true. It does exactly what it was intended to do; stop the casual, spur of the moment attacks. Not that I think there are a lot of them. A determined, resourceful, suicidal attacker could still do what they want, but that is true of a lot of things. I could be more specific, but let's be honest, I don't like visits from the feds. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 10 17:58:33 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:58:33 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <1108066327.2781.319.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> <1108066327.2781.319.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050211015833.GB22884@bofh.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 12:12:07PM -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 16:56, Rebecca wrote: > > > Do exactly - what? Develop nuclear weapons? How does that make them any more > > of a threat than, say, the United States? > > You keep forgetting that the United States only uses force in the > defense of poor, helpless innocents; or to protect the world from > bullies. People always seem to forget that. Can't think why. But I > know it's true, because they said so on Fox news. ...and I believe that these are Steven's true feelings on the issue. [1] -Jot 'keep the sarcasm going' Powers [1] This sentence feels somehow gramatically wrong. It was orginally 'this is Steven's true feelings on...' which is worse due to the mismatch of 'to be' and 'feelings' but even the new one seems wrong, as it seems like it really should be a singular feeling, but isn't. I give up and throw myself upon the mercy of the pedants (and if they're wearing jewelry, the pendants as well) -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Feb 10 18:16:20 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:16:20 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> Message-ID: <20050211021620.GA20136@infodancer.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 06:56:44PM -0600, Rebecca wrote: > From: "Matthew Hunter" > >North Korea has just announced that they have nuclear weapons. > >In my opinion, they are not useful; they are a threat. If we > >leave tinpot dictatorships alone long enough, they will do > >exactly this. If we leave Iran alone long enough, they will do > >this. (Listen closely to the negotiations with "old Europe" on > >the Iran front; note how Iran is playing for time; note how > >"containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). > Do exactly - what? Develop nuclear weapons? How does that make them any > more of a threat than, say, the United States? If you cannot understand the difference between Iran and the United States, you are beyond hope. Seriously. The US has its flaws, but I'm not inclined to wait until an Iranian nuke detonates in New York to take preventative action. > What has North Korea done by the way of invading sovereign > nations, human rights violations, etc., that the U.S. hasn't? North Korea is a communist dictatorship. That the US is not perfect does not mean that it is not much, much better than North Korea. > If I were a developing nation in a troubled region, I > would certainly want some nuclear power, if only to protect me from what > the big guns like the U.S. and its various cronies might do to me. Y'know, I would too. But while I believe nuclear proliferation is inevitable in the long run, I prefer to put it off as long as possible. And insofar as it is possible, I would prefer to keep those weapons out of the hands of people likely to either use them, or give them to terrorists (who would certainly use them). North Korea has explicitly threatened to export it's claimed nuclear weapons. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107686.html ---- During talks with China and the U.S. in April, North Korea announced that it had already produced nuclear weapons and threatened to test or export them. Kim has regularly used threats and hostile acts to try to wring aid from the international community... The International Atomic Energy Agency announced in May 2004 that is has strong evidence that North Korea supplied Libya with about two tons of uranium. If true, this would indicate that North Korea has moved beyond selling missile technology. ---- Believing that North Korea can be trusted with nuclear weapons is foolish. I am perfectly willing to let that country sit there unmolested so long as its army remains within its borders, and it neither possesses nor seeks to possess nuclear weapons. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Feb 10 19:50:00 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:50:00 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: <420C2B68.6040500@comcast.net> "Securing vital resources"? Great big Latin words for . . . what? Going in and taking something we use far too much of, and waste far too much of, and are going to run out of anyway. Besides being utterly lawless, how stupid is that? Mia >Oh, by all means. I don't consider securing vital resources an inappropriate >US priority. As you say, it's pretty far down the list, but it's on it. > >pe > > > > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 20:48:35 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:48:35 EST Subject: Glowbulbs? Did they go away along with Dragaera City? Message-ID: <77.3ef20436.2f3d9323@aol.com> Hi, Does anyone remember glowbulbs in any other book? They show up in book search only in 500YA. Who invented them? When? Were they only in use in Dragaera City? Was the spell for them lost in the disaster? "Lara turned at these voices, and seeing two warlike figures silhouetted against the light from the slowly approaching glowbulb" Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-third, page 350 Book Search does not have the words "slowly approaching" Glowbulbs followed people around. Dunaan knew how to disable (Chapter the Twenty-ninth, page 451) a glowbulb. Otherwise, "it", the glowbulb "would have helpfully lighted him up and alerted everyone in the area that someone was crouching in an alley" Heh, why is a glowbug floating over in that alley? Did glowbulbs want to be helpful? Or were they just programmed to follow people in the dark? Dunaan did not just shoo the glowbulb away. He did not just turn it off. He disabled the glowbulb. I do not remember Vlad ever having to disable a glowbulb. Could glowbulbs have gone away because of the enhanced Orb? Why have the Empire pay for glowbulbs to be made when most citizens could call on the Orb and make their own light? Even Easterners with a Jhereg-purchased citizenship can use light spells. Bye. Linda G. Book Search on glowbulb Score 1 at 8.8% in chapter 500ya23.html ? upon the ground and that, moreover, there appeared, in the uneven light cast by the nearest glowbulb, still some distance away, a stream of blood flowing from a not inconsiderable gash in his forehead. ? Score 1 at 46.6% in chapter 500ya23.html ?." Lara turned at these voices, and seeing two warlike figures silhouetted against the light from the glowbulb, decided that there was no longer time for saving anything, but, rather, she must use her most ? Score 1 at 53.2% in chapter 500ya23.html ? for their presence but wondering who they were. Pel stepped out of the way of the glowbulb, thus allowing the light to fall on the Countess's face, after which he said, "Well, my dear ? Score 1 at 54.3% in chapter 500ya23.html ?, and turned so the light fell on his face (the glowbulb, we should add, was only now moving into place above the ensemble, so quick had been all of the action). "You are without ? Score 1 at 1.4% in chapter 500ya13.html ? darkness pressing silence onto the streets of Dragaera, which darkness was broken only by the occasional glowbulb or lantern outside a public house and which silence was broken only by the occasional lone footstep ? Score 1 at 10.6% in chapter 500ya29.html ? waited between two buildings next to which Khaavren invariably walked, and had, moreover, disabled the one glowbulb that operated in the vicinity (otherwise, of course, it would have helpfully lighted him up and alerted ? Score 1 at 3.9% in chapter 500ya12.html ?, we hasten to add, see this clearly, for night had quite fallen and there were few glowbulbs in this part of the city, but the three gold cloaks were unmistakable, as was the direction ? From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 10 21:02:37 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:02:37 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <41DB85A2.4F1D4F1B.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 2/10/2005 9:16:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 06:56:44PM -0600, Rebecca wrote: >> From: "Matthew Hunter" >> >North Korea has just announced that they have nuclear weapons. >> >In my opinion, they are not useful; they are a threat. If we >> >leave tinpot dictatorships alone long enough, they will do >> >exactly this. If we leave Iran alone long enough, they will do >> >this. (Listen closely to the negotiations with "old Europe" on >> >the Iran front; note how Iran is playing for time; note how >> >"containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). >> Do exactly - what? Develop nuclear weapons? How does that make them any >> more of a threat than, say, the United States? > >If you cannot understand the difference between Iran and the >United States, you are beyond hope. Seriously. The US has its >flaws, but I'm not inclined to wait until an Iranian nuke >detonates in New York to take preventative action. > >> What has North Korea done by the way of invading sovereign >> nations, human rights violations, etc., that the U.S. hasn't? > >North Korea is a communist dictatorship. > >That the US is not perfect does not mean that it is not much, >much better than North Korea. > >> If I were a developing nation in a troubled region, I >> would certainly want some nuclear power, if only to protect me from what >> the big guns like the U.S. and its various cronies might do to me. > >Y'know, I would too. But while I believe nuclear proliferation >is inevitable in the long run, I prefer to put it off as long as >possible. And insofar as it is possible, I would prefer to keep >those weapons out of the hands of people likely to either use >them, or give them to terrorists (who would certainly use them). > >North Korea has explicitly threatened to export it's >claimed nuclear weapons. > >http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107686.html >---- >During talks with China and the U.S. in April, North Korea >announced that it had already produced nuclear weapons and >threatened to test or export them. > >Kim has regularly used threats and hostile acts to try to wring >aid from the international community... > >The International Atomic Energy Agency announced in May 2004 that >is has strong evidence that North Korea supplied Libya with about >two tons of uranium. If true, this would indicate that North >Korea has moved beyond selling missile technology. >---- > >Believing that North Korea can be trusted with nuclear weapons is >foolish. I am perfectly willing to let that country sit there >unmolested so long as its army remains within its borders, and it >neither possesses nor seeks to possess nuclear weapons. > >-- >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) >Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt >Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp >Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp > I am not of the belief that *any* nation can truly be trusted with nuclear weapons. We have come to accept, as mundane, the fact that at any moment there is the real possibilty of nuclear annihilation. Maybe to do otherwise would have us all curled up in the fetal position in the corner. I like the idea of nuclear weapons when we are the only ones to have them. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Feb 10 21:18:58 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:18:58 +0100 Subject: Glowbulbs? Did they go away along with Dragaera City? In-Reply-To: <77.3ef20436.2f3d9323@aol.com> Message-ID: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote >Hi, > >Does anyone remember glowbulbs in any other book? They show up >in book search only in 500YA. > >Who invented them? When? Were they only in use in Dragaera City? >Was the spell for them lost in the disaster? > I think that the enhanced Orb is the answer, just as you posit. But the most important question is of course; how many Dragaerans does it take to change a glowbulb? ;) /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From tsarren at alyra.org Thu Feb 10 23:35:19 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:35:19 -0600 Subject: Human Rights Violations (was: Re: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> Message-ID: <20050211073519.GF23683@Durandal> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 06:56:44PM -0600, Rebecca wrote: > What has North Korea done by > the way of invading sovereign nations, human rights violations, etc., that > the U.S. hasn't? *raises eyebrows* You haven't heard of the human rights violations that go on in that country? The starvation? Google for 'human rights north korea' and spend a few hours reading. Here are some excerpts from the 2003 US Dept of State report on North Korea: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27775.htm "Heavy military spending, which is estimated at more than one quarter of gross domestic product (GDP), hampered economic development." Yeah, that'll cut into your food budget. "Economic and political conditions have caused at least tens of thousands of persons to flee their homes since the mid-1990s." Ten thousand people over the course of ~10 years have left their homes and gone... somewhere... because they didn't have enough to eat thanks to their communist government. There is nothing that even holds a candle to this in the US. The following three paragraphs are the summary of the meat of the report: "Citizens do not have the right to change their government, and the leadership views most international human rights norms, particularly individual rights, as illegitimate, alien, and subversive to the goals of the State and Party. There continued to be reports of extrajudicial killings, disappearances, and arbitrary detention including many who were held as political prisoners. Prison conditions were harsh, and torture reportedly was common." "Credible eyewitness reports note that pregnant female prisoners underwent forced abortions, and in other cases babies reportedly were killed upon birth in prisons. The constitutional provisions for an independent judiciary and fair trials were not implemented in practice. The regime subjected its citizens to rigid controls over many aspects of their lives. The Penal Code is Draconian, stipulating capital punishment and confiscation of assets for a wide variety of "crimes against the revolution," including defection, attempted defection, slander of the policies of the Party or State, listening to foreign broadcasts, writing "reactionary" letters, and possessing reactionary printed matter." "Citizens are denied freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and association; all forms of cultural and media activities are under the tight control of the KWP. Little outside information reaches the public except that which is approved and disseminated by the Government. The Government restricted freedom of religion, citizens' movement, and worker rights. There were reports of trafficking in women and young girls among refugees and workers crossing the border into China." However much you hate W, however much you despise the man trampling all over the Bill of Rights, current conditions in the US are *nothing* compared to North Korea. To say that the US and NK are currently comparable in terms of human rights violations is, to be frank, BS. Kat From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Feb 11 02:01:06 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:01:06 -0800 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <20050211015255.GA22884@bofh.com> References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050211015255.GA22884@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:52:55 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:14:02PM -0800, lazarus wrote: >> Our airline security is a joke. > >This is not exactly true. It does exactly what it was intended >to do; stop the casual, spur of the moment attacks. Not that >I think there are a lot of them. > Actually, I don't think a casual, spur of the moment attack has ever happened. We hyped up security in the wake of 9/11, most definitely not a casual attack. >A determined, resourceful, suicidal attacker could still do >what they want, but that is true of a lot of things. > >I could be more specific, but let's be honest, I don't like visits from the >feds. The only reason we're safer now is that the paradigm shifted. Before 9/11, everyone knew the best way to survive a hijacking was to sit still and wait it out. Now we know that's not going to work. I pity the next person who tries to take over a plane with knives. The biggest, most gaping hole in our airport security is the workers in the airport. I had the opportunity to chat with one of them a few months ago. I asked her if they had to go through all that security crap every day, just to get to work. She said no, they had monthly "surprise" checks. Of course, they would be told the day before that the "surprise" check was coming, so they could head in early and still be on shift at the right time. So a terrorist goes through screening, completely clean. Once in the airport, he meets up with an accomplice who works at a kiosk or something, and has a load of explosives. Bags are switched, plane goes boom, and we all panic once again. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Feb 11 02:01:14 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:01:14 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:38:00 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 12:48:09PM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: >> President George Bush (The Dad) understood things better. Bogeymen are >> useful. When there's an obvious bogeyman close at home, it's hard to >> target the U.S. as the #1 enemy. Sure there were humanitarian reasons >> for overthrowing Saddam, but with that bogeyman gone, the Muslim world >> found another one. The U.S. > >The Muslim world was more than a little peeved at us before we >knocked Saddam's tinpot dictatorship over. > >> North Korea is sad - but it is useful for our policies. > >North Korea has just announced that they have nuclear weapons. >In my opinion, they are not useful; they are a threat. If we >leave tinpot dictatorships alone long enough, they will do >exactly this. If we leave Iran alone long enough, they will do >this. (Listen closely to the negotiations with "old Europe" on >the Iran front; note how Iran is playing for time; note how >"containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). North Korea has announced they have nuclear weapons every year for four years now. Why it's breaking news every time they do it is beyond me. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Feb 11 02:01:24 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:01:24 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050211021620.GA20136@infodancer.org> References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> <20050210203800.GR8732@infodancer.org> <00c901c50fd4$8f643680$6601a8c0@BOB> <20050211021620.GA20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:16:20 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 06:56:44PM -0600, Rebecca wrote: >> From: "Matthew Hunter" >> >North Korea has just announced that they have nuclear weapons. >> >In my opinion, they are not useful; they are a threat. If we >> >leave tinpot dictatorships alone long enough, they will do >> >exactly this. If we leave Iran alone long enough, they will do >> >this. (Listen closely to the negotiations with "old Europe" on >> >the Iran front; note how Iran is playing for time; note how >> >"containment" is likely to result in a Muslim nuclear power). >> Do exactly - what? Develop nuclear weapons? How does that make them any >> more of a threat than, say, the United States? > >If you cannot understand the difference between Iran and the >United States, you are beyond hope. Seriously. The US has its >flaws, but I'm not inclined to wait until an Iranian nuke >detonates in New York to take preventative action. > How many nations has Iran overthrown or invaded in the past 4 years? >> If I were a developing nation in a troubled region, I >> would certainly want some nuclear power, if only to protect me from what >> the big guns like the U.S. and its various cronies might do to me. > >Y'know, I would too. But while I believe nuclear proliferation >is inevitable in the long run, I prefer to put it off as long as >possible. And insofar as it is possible, I would prefer to keep >those weapons out of the hands of people likely to either use >them, or give them to terrorists (who would certainly use them). > >North Korea has explicitly threatened to export it's >claimed nuclear weapons. > >http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107686.html >---- >During talks with China and the U.S. in April, North Korea >announced that it had already produced nuclear weapons and >threatened to test or export them. > >Kim has regularly used threats and hostile acts to try to wring >aid from the international community... > >The International Atomic Energy Agency announced in May 2004 that >is has strong evidence that North Korea supplied Libya with about >two tons of uranium. If true, this would indicate that North >Korea has moved beyond selling missile technology. >---- And the biggest supplier of nuclear technology in the past few years has been our good buddy Pakistan. Dr. AQ Khan, to be precise, who we have decided isn't to be held to any account, because Pakistan is such a good friend to us. From scs at di.org Fri Feb 11 04:38:04 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:38:04 -0500 Subject: Glowbulbs? Did they go away along with Dragaera City? In-Reply-To: <77.3ef20436.2f3d9323@aol.com> References: <77.3ef20436.2f3d9323@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050211123804.GB32734@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 11:48:35PM -0500, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Does anyone remember glowbulbs in any other book? They show up > in book search only in 500YA. They make an unnamed appearance in 'Viscount' where someones room is described as being lit by glowing things on the ceiling. This is after the return of the orb. My guess is as you conjecture, that the new and improved orb enabled better solutions than glowbulbs. -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 05:01:57 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:01:57 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <420C2B68.6040500@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> Mia McDavid wrote: > Mia > >> Oh, by all means. I don't consider securing vital resources an >> inappropriate US priority. As you say, it's pretty far down the >> list, but it's on it. >> >> pe > "Securing vital resources"? Great big Latin words for . . . what? > Going in and taking something we use far too much of, and waste far > too much of, and are going to run out of anyway. Besides being > utterly lawless, how stupid is that? > "Securing" is not the same as "taking". But the question is "securing from what"? If those resources stay in the ground, our long term interests are helped. If they are sold on the world market, our short term interests are helped. If they are sold to China instead of to the U.S., it keeps the price of Venezuelan oil down. The only real issue is that China is becoming a major industrial power - using oil the way we have. Unless we are willing to stop them, we need to secure recourses by building nuclear plants or something similar. Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship do they have with each other economically? From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 05:03:38 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:03:38 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <41DB85A2.4F1D4F1B.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c5103a$1abb5780$667ba8c0@Dad133> Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > I am not of the belief that *any* nation can truly be trusted with > nuclear weapons. We have come to accept, as mundane, the fact that at > any moment there is the real possibilty of nuclear annihilation. > Maybe to do otherwise would have us all curled up in the fetal > position in the corner. > > I like the idea of nuclear weapons when we are the only ones to have > them. And the other guys like the idea of nuclear weapons when they are the only ones to have them. From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 11 05:22:23 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:22:23 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jot Powers [mailto:books at bofh.com] > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:14:02PM -0800, lazarus wrote: > > Our airline security is a joke. > > This is not exactly true. It does exactly what it was intended > to do; stop the casual, spur of the moment attacks. Not that > I think there are a lot of them. > > A determined, resourceful, suicidal attacker could still do > what they want, but that is true of a lot of things. > > I could be more specific, but let's be honest, I don't like visits from > the > feds. > I'd like to reiterate that it won't stop casual spur of the moment attacks initiated with everyday objects that most people don't consider weapons. Anyone can slip a good stabbing weapon aboard (pens, some brands of highlighter, pencils, apparently a large safety pin, you name it) and after that all it takes is some guts, a willingness to get you hands bloody, and the ability to inspire fear, and luck. All of these things have always been required anyway. Though after 9/11 you'll have to inspire a lot more fear to avoid being mobbed, that is not due to any "increased security". From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 06:11:26 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:11:26 -0700 Subject: Dragaera vs East : Economy(was: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 6:01 AM Subject: RE: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > > Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship > do they have with each other economically? > > > There is mention of horse trading (and theft!) as well as peppers. Vlad buys spices grown in the East (or so he believes), so the Easterners must trade with their homelands as well. No mention of what the East takes as trade, we know that diamonds do not seem to have a high value. Jeff G. (Gritting his teeth as he valiantly tries to steer this thread back on topic. . . . .) From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Feb 11 06:50:20 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:50:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: @> >> Oh, by all means. I don't consider securing vital resources an @> >> inappropriate US priority. As you say, it's pretty far down the @> >> list, but it's on it. @> @> > "Securing vital resources"? Great big Latin words for . . . what? @> > Going in and taking something we use far too much of, and waste far @> > too much of, and are going to run out of anyway. Besides being @> > utterly lawless, how stupid is that? @> > @> @> "Securing" is not the same as "taking". In the above sentence, it is exactly the same (to get possession of). @> But the question is "securing from what"? If those resources stay in the @> ground, our long term interests are helped. If they are sold on the world @> market, our short term interests are helped. If they are sold to China @> instead of to the U.S., it keeps the price of Venezuelan oil down. This is true. It has no particular relation to what we're doing in Iraq, but it's true. @> The only real issue is that China is becoming a major industrial power - @> using oil the way we have. Unless we are willing to stop them, we need to @> secure recourses by building nuclear plants or something similar. Or we could do something less insane, like investing in sustainable energy sources that don't produce toxic waste and horrific weapons. @> Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship @> do they have with each other economically? Hmm. It appears as if there's some kind of trade, and given that the East is not a single unified nation, it seems likely that competition is occurring (and between the Empire, Elde, and Greenaere there certainly must be competition). From Bato001 at aol.com Fri Feb 11 06:58:42 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:58:42 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <612992AB.25E47EB9.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 2/11/2005 8:03:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > >> I am not of the belief that *any* nation can truly be trusted with >> nuclear weapons. We have come to accept, as mundane, the fact that at >> any moment there is the real possibilty of nuclear annihilation. >> Maybe to do otherwise would have us all curled up in the fetal >> position in the corner. >> >> I like the idea of nuclear weapons when we are the only ones to have >> them. > >And the other guys like the idea of nuclear weapons when they are the only >ones to have them. > > > Your powers of deduction are second only to your wit and charm my friend. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 11 07:47:52 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:47:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050211015255.GA22884@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, lazarus wrote: > The only reason we're safer now is that the paradigm shifted. Before > 9/11, everyone knew the best way to survive a hijacking was to sit > still and wait it out. Not quite everyone, if I understand correctly that the govt received dozens of warnings of hijacking threats to commercial airliners during the summer of '01, and that the danger of "spectacular" suicidal crashes was understood in that context. (I'm unaware how distributed, overlapping, and credibly sourced the two sets of information were.) I also was under the impression that if hijackers were able to gaining control of the cockpit in a lightning strike, it would all be over, given the reinforced door. (And that it wasn't clear that the heroic passengers on the downed flight succeeded - that contention among the hijackers may have been the reason for the crash - anyone know the latest on that question?) From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Feb 11 08:58:38 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:58:38 -0800 Subject: Dragaeran Geopolitics and Economy In-Reply-To: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <22fc01c5105a$eebd94b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship >do they have with each other economically? The question isn't entirely valid because "the East" doesn't really exist. The Dragaeran Empire is a large cohesive nation similar to the U.S. or perhaps Great Britain of 200 years ago or so ago. The East appears to be a conglomerate of smaller nations that are loosely aligned with each other when it's convenient or when a strong leader appears (e.g. Fenar), akin to Europe or the Middle East. (We actually know precious little about The East beyond what we learn in Brokedown Palace, and that story is as much fairy tale/allegory as it is factual reporting.) Additionally, the Eastern Mountains that separate the two bodies allow for limited communication and travel between them. You either go north to the pepper fields or south to roughly where Morrolan's domain begins. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.) There may be other paths through the mountains but so far none (that we've heard of) that would be usable by an army or caravan. Bottom line is that for the two to "compete" there would have to be some sort of common market they both wanted or some common resource that they both desire. They don't appear to have any common market at all and the pepper fields are as close as we've gotten to a resource worth competing for. Since each side pretty much desires the pepper fields for their intrinsic value rather than for their economic value (and since Khavren worked out the truce which, for lack of any report to the contrary, I assume is still in place despite the Interregnum) it's difficult to view the pepper fields as some kind of economic battle ground. Overall, I'd say that they don't compete at all and that the trade relationships are rudimentary. As mentioned by others, primarily unique or highly regarded commodities like horses and spices. If you imagine Dragaera as a unified version of Rennaisance Europe and The East as a sort of decentralized version of China of the same period, I think that you would have a reasonable picture of the situation vis-a-vis economic relations between the two. This is also one of the reasons that invasions from one side of the mountains to the other are rare in reality. With no real economic advantage to an invasion, they mainly happen when population pressures on one side or the other cause a "spillover" grab for territory or when a charismatic leader attempts to increase his or her own power base. Sethra the Younger epitomizes this latter general, as well as the general Dragaeran attitude in Vlad's time of prosperity within the Empire. The East is not truly an enemy. They're just "those guys over there that we're going to teach a lesson to someday". Even in the absence of powerful Dragaerans with pro-Eastern leanings (Norathar, Morollan, Zerika, etc...) Sethra would likely have some problems raising an army to invade the East simply because there's no mileage in doing so. Everybody's fat and happy, in a manner of speaking, so why go pick a fight where none exists? Even Verra, when attempting to start a war, strikes much closer to home at the Elde Island/Greenaere targets rather than at the more nebulous and less immediate target of "The East". On a tangential note (which no doubt led me to the China analogy rather than a more appropriate analogy involving Austro-Hungarian geography) I find it interesting that Brust's writings about The East all involve this magical fairy land angle. Brokedown Palace is a classical fairy tale written as a novel. Paarfi writes of The East as a place where the unusual happens as a matter of no great note. Coachmen are eternal. Witches perform exotic rituals to mysterious ends. A young man embarks on a kind of dreamquest and those around him nod knowingly and help him find his true name. Sorcery is really just a kind of technology to a Dragaeran. The East, in contrast, is a place where "magic" is in the air. It takes very little effort to imagine a Dragaeran visiting The East as a kind of Marco Polo visiting 18th century India and China. The ironic thing is that the East looks upon "Faerie" as a place of exotic magic and strange customs. While I'm not sure that I really want Vlad's objective (or so I imagine it in relation to Paarfi and others) viewpoint to de-mystify The East, I'd be very interested in finding out just what the impact of sorcery (via Miklos, Sandor, and others who have gone West and returned) and other Dragaeran imports have had on Eastern culture. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 09:12:57 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:12:57 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Geopolitics and Economy In-Reply-To: <22fc01c5105a$eebd94b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <22fc01c5105a$eebd94b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:58:38 -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of >> relationship >> do they have with each other economically? > > The question isn't entirely valid because "the East" doesn't really > exist. Sure it exists. > The Dragaeran Empire is a large cohesive nation similar to the U.S. or > perhaps Great Britain of 200 years ago or so ago. The East appears to be > a > conglomerate of smaller nations that are loosely aligned with each other > when it's convenient or when a strong leader appears (e.g. Fenar), akin > to Europe or the Middle East. But it's seen as something worth conquering. And there are colonists from the East in Dragaera. Are there "elf" colonies in the East? > (We actually know precious little about The East > beyond what we learn in Brokedown Palace, and that story is as much fairy > tale/allegory as it is factual reporting.) There appears to be lots that isn't known by both sides here. Although besides Brokedown Palace, we are familiar with Morollan's youth. > Additionally, the Eastern Mountains that separate the two bodies allow > for > limited communication and travel between them. You either go north to the > pepper fields or south to roughly where Morrolan's domain begins. > (Someone > correct me if I'm wrong here.) There may be other paths through the > mountains but so far none (that we've heard of) that would be usable by > an army or caravan. > Bottom line is that for the two to "compete" there would have to be some > sort of common market they both wanted or some common resource that they > both desire. They don't appear to have any common market at all and the > pepper fields are as close as we've gotten to a resource worth competing > for. Since each side pretty much desires the pepper fields for their > intrinsic value rather than for their economic value (and since Khavren > worked out the truce which, for lack of any report to the contrary, I > assume > is still in place despite the Interregnum) it's difficult to view the > pepper fields as some kind of economic battle ground. So do they really have reason to go to war other than glory? Or do the gods have their own interests in this? > Overall, I'd say that they don't compete at all and that the trade > relationships are rudimentary. As mentioned by others, primarily unique > or > highly regarded commodities like horses and spices. If you imagine > Dragaera > as a unified version of Rennaisance Europe and The East as a sort of > decentralized version of China of the same period, I think that you would > have a reasonable picture of the situation vis-a-vis economic relations > between the two. Or switch them around. The East is the decentralized, discounted Europe, while Dragaera is the strong, important China. Nobody in China expected Europe to dominate anything, even after they started creating colonies. > This is also one of the reasons that invasions from one side of the > mountains to the other are rare in reality. With no real economic > advantage > to an invasion, they mainly happen when population pressures on one side > or > the other cause a "spillover" grab for territory or when a charismatic > leader attempts to increase his or her own power base. Sethra the Younger > epitomizes this latter general, as well as the general Dragaeran > attitude in > Vlad's time of prosperity within the Empire. The East is not truly an > enemy. Are the gods comfortable with this? Or do they have other goals. > They're just "those guys over there that we're going to teach a lesson to > someday". Even in the absence of powerful Dragaerans with pro-Eastern > leanings (Norathar, Morollan, Zerika, etc...) Sethra would likely have > some > problems raising an army to invade the East simply because there's no > mileage in doing so. Everybody's fat and happy, in a manner of speaking, > so why go pick a fight where none exists? Sounds like China before Europe took things in their own hands. For a while, China closed its borders saying Europe had nothing it needed. Britain's response was to fight a war in order to force China to buy its opium (from poppies grown in conquered India). Opium created a market despite what its rulers wanted. > Even Verra, when attempting to start > a war, strikes much closer to home at the Elde Island/Greenaere targets > rather than at the more nebulous and less immediate target of "The East". > > On a tangential note (which no doubt led me to the China analogy rather > than > a more appropriate analogy involving Austro-Hungarian geography) I find > it > interesting that Brust's writings about The East all involve this magical > fairy land angle. Brokedown Palace is a classical fairy tale written as a > novel. Paarfi writes of The East as a place where the unusual happens as > a > matter of no great note. Coachmen are eternal. Witches perform exotic > rituals to mysterious ends. A young man embarks on a kind of dreamquest > and > those around him nod knowingly and help him find his true name. Sorcery > is > really just a kind of technology to a Dragaeran. The East, in contrast, > is a > place where "magic" is in the air. It takes very little effort to > imagine a > Dragaeran visiting The East as a kind of Marco Polo visiting 18th century > India and China. Or visa versa. Remember, Dragaera is populated by elves with a permament mist, sorcery, long lives, etc. Steve is twisting things around from standard Western images. > The ironic thing is that the East looks upon "Faerie" as a place of > exotic > magic and strange customs. While I'm not sure that I really want Vlad's > objective (or so I imagine it in relation to Paarfi and others) > viewpoint to > de-mystify The East, I'd be very interested in finding out just what the > impact of sorcery (via Miklos, Sandor, and others who have gone West and > returned) and other Dragaeran imports have had on Eastern culture. I suspect we will find out. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From scs at di.org Fri Feb 11 09:02:00 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran Geopolitics and Economy In-Reply-To: <22fc01c5105a$eebd94b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> <22fc01c5105a$eebd94b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20050211170200.GA2755@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 08:58:38AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > >Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship > >do they have with each other economically? > > The question isn't entirely valid because "the East" doesn't really exist. > The Dragaeran Empire is a large cohesive nation similar to the U.S. or > perhaps Great Britain of 200 years ago or so ago. The East appears to be a > conglomerate of smaller nations that are loosely aligned with each other > when it's convenient or when a strong leader appears (e.g. Fenar), akin to > Europe or the Middle East. (We actually know precious little about The East > beyond what we learn in Brokedown Palace, and that story is as much fairy > tale/allegory as it is factual reporting.) A nice writeup, tho I disagree on one point. IMHO The Dragaeran Empire more closely resembles historical China, where boundaries between the provinces vary as local nobles slug it out beneath the notice of the emperor. As long as the taxes get paid and the inter-tribe strife doesn't get too awful, the emperor lets provinces do as they will and settle their own disputes. In the US, Morrolans little tiff with Barrit wouldn't be allowed to happen. If we follow along with this analogy, then the East is more like India, and your comments about contact and trade still apply. Any analogy is weak, of course - ancient Chinese warlords tended to have more power and autonomy, and rebel much more often. Clearly Adrons revolt was an exception to normal conduct of the Dragaeran empire. Steve -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 11 09:33:28 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:33:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <200502111733.j1BHXSam015189@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> John D. Barbato, wrote: > I like the idea of nuclear weapons when we are the only ones to have them. Heh. Every other country feels the same way, I'm sure. As long as *you're* the only one with a gun (sword, WMD, etc.) you're going to feel fine. I can see two viable options: give everyone one (and wouldn't it be great to have your own nuclear weapon?;) or get rid of them all. As a member of the one country which has used nuclear weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has them. (As a side note, can anyone here think of a tyrant who did *not* believe they were in the right, and doing what's best for "their people"? I can't.) Chris (Who's rather pleased this hasn't degenerated into massive flamage.) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Feb 11 10:10:33 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:10:33 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <200502111733.j1BHXSam015189@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200502111733.j1BHXSam015189@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050211181033.GD8987@infodancer.org> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 09:33:28AM -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > John D. Barbato, wrote: > > I like the idea of nuclear weapons when we are the only ones to have them. > Heh. Every other country feels the same way, I'm > sure. As long as *you're* the only one with a > gun (sword, WMD, etc.) you're going to feel fine. > > I can see two viable options: give everyone one (and > wouldn't it be great to have your own nuclear weapon?;) > or get rid of them all. This is the doctrine of moral equivilence, and it is invalid. There are objective differences between nations that indicate how trustworthy they are with nuclear weaponry. Eliminating all nuclear weapons is not possible (since we would retain the knowledge to produce more). Giving every nation-state a nuclear weapon would result in annihilation, since inevitably those weapons would be used. The only possible strategy is to minimize the number of discrete actors who possess nuclear weapons, and to explicitly act against those who seek to obtain them. Those who obtain them in secret need to face an evaluation process once the weapon is revealed: can they be trusted not to use the weapon? What are the costs and risks involved in destroying the weapon along with any additional manufacturing capability, and enforcing that with regime change if necessary? > As a member of the one country which has used nuclear > weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has > them. We've learned from that, and we've proven for 60 years that we can be trusted. The Soviet Union proved that they could be trusted, surprising as that seems (and as close as it came at some times), for nearly as long. The genie can't go back into the bottle. Inevitably, the knowledge and capability will spread. Our only hope is to slow that spread. If we give in to nuclear blackmail by nation-states, we only encourage others to play that game. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Feb 11 10:27:37 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:27:37 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: >Chris Olson wrote: >As a member of the one country which has used nuclear >weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has >them. which country is that? the u.s.? we've used the atomic bomb (see ww2 us/japan discussion), but i was under the impression that no one has actually used a nuclear weapon against another country. tested, yes. actively used, no. please correct me if i'm wrong. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 10:28:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:28:27 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <200502111733.j1BHXSam015189@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200502111733.j1BHXSam015189@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:33:28 -0800 (PST), Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > I can see two viable options: give everyone one (and > wouldn't it be great to have your own nuclear weapon?;) > or get rid of them all. Alfie Bester's _The Stars My Destination_ selected option #1. I don't know if option #2 can be permament. Did the Serioli select one of these options? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Feb 11 10:31:55 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:31:55 -0600 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050211183155.GE8987@infodancer.org> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:27:37PM -0500, Carla Hunt wrote: > >Chris Olson wrote: > >As a member of the one country which has used nuclear > >weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has > >them. > which country is that? the u.s.? we've used the atomic bomb (see ww2 us/japan > discussion), but i was under the impression that no one has actually used a > nuclear weapon against another country. tested, yes. actively used, no. > please correct me if i'm wrong. Ummm... Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not tests. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 10:31:37 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:31:37 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:27:37 -0500, Carla Hunt wrote: > > > > >> Chris Olson wrote: > >> As a member of the one country which has used nuclear >> weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has >> them. > > which country is that? the u.s.? we've used the atomic bomb (see ww2 > us/japan > discussion), but i was under the impression that no one has actually > used a > nuclear weapon against another country. tested, yes. actively used, no. > please correct me if i'm wrong. Are you under the impression that atomic bombs aren't nuclear weapons? Or that we inactively used them? Or that Japan isn't another country? Or that the U.S. isn't "one"? I'm unclear about what you are trying to say. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 10:52:23 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:52:23 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Geopolitics and Economy References: <000301c51039$de96c410$667ba8c0@Dad133> <22fc01c5105a$eebd94b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20050211170200.GA2755@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Scott Schultz" Cc: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Dragaeran Geopolitics and Economy > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 08:58:38AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Any analogy is weak, of course - ancient Chinese warlords tended to have > more power and autonomy, and rebel much more often. Clearly Adrons > revolt was an exception to normal conduct of the Dragaeran empire. > > Steve > -- No, there are numerous mentions of revolts, but Adron was the only one utilizing "Elder Sorcery" as a direct attack on the Orb. If he had not, it would have failed, and he would have been a guest at the Executioners Star. I suspect that no one else had the temerity to use such an attack on the Orb before, although it is clear from various sorcerers reactions that they knew what the spell was. Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 10:56:26 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:56:26 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carla Hunt" To: ; Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > > > > > >Chris Olson wrote: > > >As a member of the one country which has used nuclear > >weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has > >them. > > which country is that? the u.s.? we've used the atomic bomb (see ww2 us/japan > discussion), but i was under the impression that no one has actually used a > nuclear weapon against another country. tested, yes. actively used, no. > please correct me if i'm wrong. > > Your splitting hairs at this point, the difference between an atomic weapon and a nuclear weapons is only of interest to physicists, the end result is the same. Much like Elder Sorcery and Sorcery using the orb, the poor sod who gets hit wouldn't notice the difference. Jeff From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 11 11:03:54 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:03:54 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <200502111733.j1BHXSam015189@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050211190403.MUIH8811.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 9:33 AM > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info; Bato001 at aol.com > Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > > John D. Barbato, wrote: > > I like the idea of nuclear weapons when we are the only > ones to have them. > > Heh. Every other country feels the same way, I'm sure. As > long as *you're* the only one with a gun (sword, WMD, etc.) > you're going to feel fine. > > I can see two viable options: give everyone one (and wouldn't > it be great to have your own nuclear weapon?;) or get rid of them all. There is a third option, although how "viable" it is may be contentious: Give nuclear weapons to those who have governments and political philosophies that are unlikely to allow them to be used in the modern age. While the US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons in the past, I have trouble envisioning the situation where we use nuclear weapons despite our current knowledge of their effects and dangers; we are most likely to use conventional weaponry. A group of people who don't consider themselves a nation with certain shared ideologies can't be allowed to have nuclear weapons, since any government they put in place would be too unstable and would be just as likely to be overthrown by radicals as continue. A group of people who do have a shared ideology, but which ideology that subordinates all human life, including their own, to some principle that is not related to stability for tomorrow, also should not be allowed to have nuclear weapons, since they are more likely to use them, even though their government is safe from radical usurpation. Whether we belive the US, or Britain, or Canada, or Germany, etc...to be one of those countries with a government and political philosophy that makes them unlikely to use nukes, is contentious (although I seriously doubt Canada would ever use a nuke, since they've never even wanted to develop one). Maybe we think there is no government or nation based on a political philosophy that is not reasonably suscepitible to radical revolution; maybe we think there is no government or nation that ultimately places human life before everything else except stability. I, personally, don't think the U.S. is likely to use nukes in either the near or distant future, so I don't see a danger to the rest of the world in allowing the U.S. to have them. The same is true of Canada, Germany, Great Britain, France, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland...but I don't know about Iran...they have a stable government now, based on a recent radical revolution, and their philosophy seems to subordinate human life to prinicples that are not related to stability in this world. North Korea, also revolutionary, and as a dictatorship is vulnerable to the problem of succession and the instability brought about when there is a nation ruled by a person and not by a principle. In the end you may ask "if they are unlikely to use them, why give them to these nations at all? They wouldn't be a credible threat to use them, so there would be no deterrent value to them having nukes. Having any nukes on the planet at all must contribute in some way to the chance that someone crazy will get their hands on one and detonate it, so why not just get rid of all of them?" The only answer I can give to this is: Even though these nations are "unlikely" to use them, their systems of government (stable, based on shared ideology, placing human life ahead of most principles) are the ones I would like to see continue on the planet as the best organizing principles for humanity. To allow them to be destroyed by a radical nation, or overrun by a horde of disparate groups who then fight amongst themselves, is unconscionable. So as a last resort against the hordes and radicals, these nations get nukes. And they are the ones who would only use them as a last resort, given what they know about the effects of nuclear detonation. I can't believe I let myself get dragged into this.... Shawn From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 11 11:11:56 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:11:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <200502111911.j1BJBtam024575@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Matthew Hunter wrote: > This is the doctrine of moral equivilence, and it is invalid. I was, in fact, joking. Neither option is realistic, I know, for the reasons you stated. :) > The only possible strategy is to minimize the number of discrete > actors who possess nuclear weapons, and to explicitly act against > those who seek to obtain them. Those who obtain them in secret > need to face an evaluation process once the weapon is revealed: > can they be trusted not to use the weapon? What are the costs > and risks involved in destroying the weapon along with any > additional manufacturing capability, and enforcing that with > regime change if necessary? I can't agree. Can we be trusted not to use them? I don't think so. Can we be trusted not to use them except in "extreme emergencies"? Sure, but then it's a matter of what constitutes an "extreme emergency", and that's up for debate. > We've learned from that, and we've proven for 60 years that we > can be trusted. The Soviet Union proved that they could be > trusted, surprising as that seems (and as close as it came at > some times), for nearly as long. Eh, maybe. What's the timetable for nuclear weapon trust? How many years does a country need to have them, but not use them, for them to be trustworthy? And why do we continue to create new and better (read: more destructive) weapons? As someone who's taken martial arts, I was always told you never draw a weapon unless you intend to use it. And making bigger and better just so's the other guy won't mess with you doesn't work; it just makes them want to build up to ensure you don't mess with him. A nice little circle, eh? > The genie can't go back into the bottle. Inevitably, the > knowledge and capability will spread. Our only hope is to slow > that spread. If we give in to nuclear blackmail by > nation-states, we only encourage others to play that game. No, we can't get rid of the knowledge (I once printed out, and put up on my fridge, instructions to make a nuclear weapon-- just cause:), and it's out there for anyone to look up. But other countries have a valid reason to be scared of the US and their "interests". We might not use nuclear weapons (though, according to the administration, they haven't been ruled out), but our actions can and do put other countries into a situation where they fear us taking over, and nuclear weapons, WMD, etc., are ways to make them feel safer. Not safe, but safer. And no, this isn't me saying we should allow them to develop whatever they want. This *is* me saying we shouldn't be hypocritical, and if we want disarmament and a cease of hostilities, we should be willing to set an example. Just my opinion, but if the US really wants to lead the world into global peace and prosperity (yeah, right), we should start going about it the right way. Yes, I am an optimistic pessimist, or a pessimistic optimist, whichever. :) :) Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 11 11:17:58 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:17:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: <200502111917.j1BJHwam025013@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Carla Hunt wrote: > >Chris Olson wrote: > > >As a member of the one country which has used nuclear > >weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has > >them. > > which country is that? the u.s.? we've used the atomic bomb (see ww2 us/japan > discussion), but i was under the impression that no one has actually used a > nuclear weapon against another country. tested, yes. actively used, no. > please correct me if i'm wrong. I have always been under the impression that there is little difference, if any, between a nuclear weapon and an atomic bomb. I am not a nuclear physicist, so I may be wrong here (might have to call up my Navy friend who worked on Nuclear subs and ask. He'd know). I also feel that "testing" a nuclear weapon on people, whether your own country or another's, counts as using it. (Damn, now I can't remember where the French tested theirs. Anyone?) :) Chris From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Feb 11 11:13:53 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:13:53 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050211135530.034b3cd0@pop.east.cox.net> At 17:14 02/10/2005, lazarus wrote: >On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:19:47 -0500, you wrote: > > >In a message dated 2/9/2005 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard > Brazee" writes: > > > >>Trouble is - the enemy will move to the next target while we are worried > >>about fingernail clippers. > >> > >> > >The whole fingernail clippers thing is ridiculous. I'd be more worried > about the fingernails themselves. I have long, strong nails. They can do > more damage than the clippers and have worse long term effect, like an > infection after being scratched. Clippers should be allowed onboard to > defend against long nails :o) "Oh no! They have fingernail clippers! > Watch lose strings on you sweaters!" > >-C > >We recently flew cross country. My daughter realised at the last >minute that she had a big (3-4 inches) "safety" pin attached to her >shirt. She slipped it off and dropped it in my bag. Nobody noticed. > >One bend, and I'd have had a nice stabbing weapon. > >Our airline security is a joke. Nail clippers and knitting needles are legal. See . You need to click on "English" and have the ability to read an Acrobat file. The things prohibited are things with sharp edges (box cutters, razor blades) and/or points (ice picks), plus things which have obvious use as a weapon (hatchets, baseball bats), but they may be left in checked luggage. Explosives, fire producing materials, and chemicals are prohibited completely. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 11:34:43 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:34:43 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:56:26 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > Your splitting hairs at this point, the difference between an atomic > weapon > and a nuclear weapons is only of interest to physicists, the end result > is the same. My bachelor's was in physics. Could you enlighten me on this difference? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 11:41:13 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:41:13 -0800 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WHO IS MARIO? IMHO the most unlikely of all. Heh. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 11 11:46:10 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:46:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:56:26 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > > Your splitting hairs at this point, the difference between an atomic > > weapon > > and a nuclear weapons is only of interest to physicists, the end result > > is the same. > > My bachelor's was in physics. Could you enlighten me on this difference? Seems to be confusion between the (nominally in this context) synonymous "atomic" and "nuclear" and the non-synonymous "fission" and "fusion". Note that people speak of "nuclear warheads" and "nuclear weapons" now (referring for the most part to fusion devices), and that the older "atomic bomb" does carry some association with "fission" for me at least, perhaps for historical reasons. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 11 11:46:47 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) Message-ID: <200502111946.j1BJklam027426@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> > WHO IS MARIO? > > IMHO the most unlikely of all. Heh. Steve himself is secretly Mario. He travels to Dragaera, along with his trusty still-a-dog dog and his parrot Doc, through the Necromantic Gate he hides behind his Grateful Dead records. The whole "he doesn't *look* Dragaeran" thing is covered up with platform shoes and a cute asian make-up artist he brings with him. That's why we never see Mario and Steve in the same place! (Ask a silly question....;) Chris From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 11:46:25 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:46:25 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:34:43 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: When Isaac Asimov re-released his Foundation trilogy, he did not want to edit any change in style or substance. But he did replace "atomic" with "nuclear" as our language had changed since he first wrote the books. Reporters had noticed that scientists found the use of "nuclear" to be a bit more precise than "atomic", so they changed what they wrote, and we all accepted it. But either word works - it's whatever is accepted. There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. The popular press sometimes calls one a nuclear bomb, and the other a hydrogen bomb. But that's silly. These descriptions are not parallel. Politically WMD is more important anyway. If someone kills a city via a bacteria or via a bomb - the terror is the same. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 11:47:24 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:47:24 -0700 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:41:13 -0800, James Griffin wrote: > > WHO IS MARIO? > > IMHO the most unlikely of all. Heh. > > James Griffin, > Still Another Vlad faN Oh. That's someone I never considered. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Feb 11 13:40:47 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:40:47 -0500 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: >On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:27:37PM -0500, Carla Hunt wrote: >> >Chris Olson wrote: >>>As a member of the one country which has used nuclear >> >weapons on another, I don't trust us or anyone who has >> >them. >> which country is that? the u.s.? we've used the atomic bomb (see ww2 us/japan >> discussion), but i was under the impression that no one has actually used a >> nuclear weapon against another country. tested, yes. actively used, no. >> please correct me if i'm wrong. > >Ummm... > >Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not tests. uummmmm, wasn't implying they were. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 13:45:33 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:45:33 +0100 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "James Griffin" wrote >WHO IS MARIO? > >IMHO the most unlikely of all. Heh. > >James Griffin, >Still Another Vlad faN He lives disguised as an Easterner plumber. He's got a brother too. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 14:57:26 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:57:26 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:56:26 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > > Your splitting hairs at this point, the difference between an atomic > > weapon > > and a nuclear weapons is only of interest to physicists, the end result > > is the same. > > My bachelor's was in physics. Could you enlighten me on this difference? > It is, as you doubtless realize, based on the terminology used. Atomic weapons is the term used to refer to the first fission weapons used, the implosion type known as the Fat Man, and the "gun" type known as the Little Boy. "Nuclear" is the term commonly used to refer to the more powerful fusion weapons used by the US, Russia, the UK and France. India, South Africa, Pakistan, Israel and possibly China use fission devices, as the science involved in creating an efficient fusion device is simple in theory, but difficult in practice without experimentation. The various types of fusion devices are much more complex. I could go on in greater detail, but as I said before, it is of little interest to the layperson. Just as with the thread on politics, the science of high energy weapons has little to do with Dragearea. Jeff G. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Feb 11 10:39:00 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:39:00 -0800 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many ways, and the weapon being advanced. What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a few general guidelines, however: 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of capital punishment. 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with health care. 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant militarism). 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own citizens in prison. There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with weapons of terror. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 11 15:46:59 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:46:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family Message-ID: <200502112346.j1BNkxam016995@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Steven Brust wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as > > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is > > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. > > What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a > few general guidelines, however: > > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > weapons of terror. LOL. Yeah, that about ties to all my findings. Also explains my feelings on the subject. ;) Thanks! Chris From books at bofh.com Fri Feb 11 16:03:46 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:03:46 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050212000346.GA843@bofh.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 10:39:00AM -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as > > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is > > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. > > I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when > weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because > of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many > ways, and the weapon being advanced. > > What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a > few general guidelines, however: [*lobs in political hot potato*] I didn't realize all backward nations were Republicans. :) Really...I should have been able to help myself...but it's Friday, I have a beer in my hand, and more importantly a wet throat, so, what the hay... -Jot "disagrees on healthcare" Powers -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 16:03:49 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:03:49 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c51096$5528c040$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff G. wrote: > It is, as you doubtless realize, based on the terminology used. Atomic > weapons is the term used to refer to the first fission weapons used, > the implosion type known as the Fat Man, and the "gun" type known as > the Little Boy. "Nuclear" is the term commonly used to refer to the > more powerful fusion weapons used by the US, Russia, the UK and > France. India, South Africa, Pakistan, Israel and possibly China use > fission devices, as the science involved in creating an efficient > fusion device is simple in theory, but difficult in practice without > experimentation. The various types of fusion devices are much more > complex. I could go on in greater detail, but as I said before, it is > of little interest to the layperson. Just as with the thread on > politics, the science of high energy weapons has little to do with > Dragearea. > > Jeff G. That's not what I was taught. Let me look it up: http://www.onelook.com/?loc=pub&w=nuclear+bomb Nope. http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?ref id=1861697309 Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_bomb Nope. Do you have a cite for your statement? From jtrager at keyway.net Fri Feb 11 16:05:45 2005 From: jtrager at keyway.net (jtrager at keyway.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:05:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <27621.63.67.56.125.1108166745.squirrel@63.67.56.125> I've always admired your writing. Never more than after reading that deceptively simple missive. Bravo. Cheers, Trager (lurker extraordinaire) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Feb 11 16:28:45 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:28:45 -0600 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 10:39:00AM -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as > > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is > > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. > I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when > weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because > of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many > ways, and the weapon being advanced. > > What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a > few general guidelines, however: > > 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of > capital punishment. There's nothing barbaric about executing people who have committed sufficiently dire crimes. Society has no obligation to support them once they have proven themselves unwilling to live by even the most basic rules of society. To be honest, it's an option that should be a lot *easier* than it is presently. For example, I think it would be reasonable to apply the death penalty to any case of deliberate, premeditated murder. Now, making sure the person to be executed it actually guilty is another matter. > 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with > health care. Gee, people who can pay for the health care they desire get the best health care in the world here in the USA. Do you perhaps mean that a nation is backward if it doesn't force doctors to treat patients regardless of their ability to pay? > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth > concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more > direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the > cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant militarism). You mean like the Saudi royal family, or the Iranian "Death to America!" legislature? Of course Saddam was a marvel of secular humanism... > 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own > citizens in prison. No argument there. > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > weapons of terror. No nation can be trusted with "weapons of terror", because such weapons are inherently evil. Nuclear weapons are not inherently evil. They are merely inherently very, very destructive and include nasty side effects. I don't think that I would pick any nation as being "trustable" with nuclear weapons. No government can be trusted with that amount of power. Unfortunately, waving the magic wand won't make the missiles go away. I can, however, easily separate out a list of nations that I would not under any circumstances trust with nuclear weapons. I can make an even shorter list of nations for which I would put my life on the line in a military action to prevent their acquisition of a nuclear weapon, or to destroy such capability already in existance. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 11 16:31:38 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:31:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as > > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is > > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. > > I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when > weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because > of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many > ways, and the weapon being advanced. Everybody gets nervous when weapons of terror are in the hands of unstable or loosely-governed nations. Everybody should be nervous if nuclear weapons are controlled by countries insufficiently technologically sophisticated to safeguard and maintain them. > What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a > few general guidelines, however: > > 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of > capital punishment. This is more or less a religious argument - I happen to oppose capital punishment, but experience shows that such nations are capable of responsible possesion of nukes. > 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with > health care. We are able to provide our citizens with health care. Maybe not free, universal, cutting-edge health care, but this seems like an irrelevancy in context. > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth > concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more > direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the > cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant militarism). The Soviet Union managed under these conditions to behave responsibly. > 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own > citizens in prison. Ditto. > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > weapons of terror. Most people are of course more interested about when the next episode of Desperate Housewives is than the FSU's loose nukes, or Pakistan's technology export policy, or how to deal with a nuclear-armed Iran. I for one am glad my racist, fearful, imperfect country developed nuclear weapons in the face of the USSR's expansionism and development of nukes. I'd like to see us continue nuclear disarmament, perhaps to 0; but the extent to which our arsenal has restrained China from annexing its neighbors and North Korea from waging war on South Korea and so forth would have to be considered, and that is a question for another day. From books at bofh.com Fri Feb 11 16:47:45 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:47:45 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20050212004745.GA1282@bofh.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 06:28:45PM -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 10:39:00AM -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > > 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of > > capital punishment. > > There's nothing barbaric about executing people who have > committed sufficiently dire crimes. Society has no obligation > to support them once they have proven themselves unwilling to > live by even the most basic rules of society. To be honest, it's > an option that should be a lot *easier* than it is presently. > For example, I think it would be reasonable to apply the death > penalty to any case of deliberate, premeditated murder. > > Now, making sure the person to be executed it actually guilty is > another matter. Yes, but that "BUT" is a doozy. The fact is we can't guarantee it, as the "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement has shown in the face of DNA evidence over the last 10 years. Given that lack of certainty, _I_ believe that capital punishment is unsupportable. (The philosophical argument that deals with it is another matter, but this single practical argument renders it moot, IMO. ) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Feb 11 17:21:44 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:21:44 -0500 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Steve Brust wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as >> far as >> physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is >> neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world >> country. > > I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when > weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because > of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many > ways, and the weapon being advanced. > > What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are > a > few general guidelines, however: > > 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of > capital punishment. > > 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with > health care. > > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth > concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more > direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the > cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant > militarism). > > 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own > citizens in prison. > > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that > a > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > weapons of terror. > Excellent! From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 17:38:10 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:38:10 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:39 AM Subject: Re: The Nuclear family > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as > > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is > > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. > > I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when > weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because > of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many > ways, and the weapon being advanced. > > What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a > few general guidelines, however: > > 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of > capital punishment. > > 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with > health care. > > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth > concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more > direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the > cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant militarism). > > 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own > citizens in prison. > > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > weapons of terror. > > > While I don't agree with all of your points, I do agree that backwards nations should not be trusted with WMD. Hell, I don't think they should be trusted with my tax money. I subscribe to Heinleins definition of a doomed society; that is any that requires a person to carry more than two forms of identification. He recommended fleeing immediately. The distressing part is there is nowhere to flee to, only temporary shelters from the insanity of the world at large. Jeff G. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 17:46:42 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:46:42 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000401c510a4$b478e530$667ba8c0@Dad133> Matthew Hunter wrote: >> 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of >> capital punishment. > > There's nothing barbaric about executing people who have > committed sufficiently dire crimes. Society has no obligation > to support them once they have proven themselves unwilling to > live by even the most basic rules of society. To be honest, it's > an option that should be a lot *easier* than it is presently. > For example, I think it would be reasonable to apply the death > penalty to any case of deliberate, premeditated murder. I don't think the death penalty is cruel, and it certainly wasn't unusual when the Constitution was written. But it is final. > Now, making sure the person to be executed it actually guilty is > another matter. Which is one danger of using it. The other danger, which has been of historical interest is when it is used to get rid of political opposition. That said, if I were falsely convicted of murder, and sent to life in prison, nobody except my immediate family would be trying to clear me. If I was on death row, more people would be searching for the real killer. >> 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens >> with health care. > > Gee, people who can pay for the health care they desire get the > best health care in the world here in the USA. My brother is dead right now because our flavor of socialized medicine is designed for employed people. He was between jobs when he noticed a cough, and by the time he was re-employed (he was an executive), his cancer had gone too far. > Do you perhaps mean that a nation is backward if it doesn't force > doctors to treat patients regardless of their ability to pay? We have socialized medicine in the USA right now. It just has funny gaps. I'd like to see what would happen if someone in power decided that veterans needed full Medicare coverage even if they lived in small towns without VA hospitals. >> 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth >> concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and >> more direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under >> the cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant >> militarism). > > You mean like the Saudi royal family, or the Iranian "Death to > America!" legislature? Of course Saddam was a marvel of secular > humanism... That's a valid example of what he meant. >> 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their >> own citizens in prison. > > No argument there. > >> There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree >> that a nation that displays those characteristics ought not to >> trusted with weapons of terror. > > No nation can be trusted with "weapons of terror", because such > weapons are inherently evil. Nuclear weapons are not inherently > evil. They are merely inherently very, very destructive and > include nasty side effects. I don't think that I would pick any > nation as being "trustable" with nuclear weapons. No government > can be trusted with that amount of power. Unfortunately, waving > the magic wand won't make the missiles go away. > > I can, however, easily separate out a list of nations that I > would not under any circumstances trust with nuclear weapons. > I can make an even shorter list of nations for which I would put > my life on the line in a military action to prevent their > acquisition of a nuclear weapon, or to destroy such capability > already in existence. But eventually we will need a different strategy as technology and wealth makes WMD easier to acquire and deploy. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 17:49:57 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:49:57 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c510a5$288dd840$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: >> 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of >> capital punishment. > > This is more or less a religious argument - I happen to oppose capital > punishment, but experience shows that such nations are capable of > responsible possesion of nukes. Certainly any definition of "backward" or "higher" is dependent upon personal values. Generally it means "Higher" is like me. "Backward" is values I don't have. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 17:52:07 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:52:07 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050212004745.GA1282@bofh.com> Message-ID: <000601c510a5$76056340$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jot Powers wrote: >> Now, making sure the person to be executed it actually guilty is >> another matter. > > Yes, but that "BUT" is a doozy. The fact is we can't guarantee it, > as the "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement has shown in the > face of DNA evidence over the last 10 years. > > Given that lack of certainty, _I_ believe that capital punishment > is unsupportable. > > (The philosophical argument that deals with it is another matter, > but this single practical argument renders it moot, IMO. ) Our nation was formed with such philosophical ideas as "give me liberty or give me death". If liberty is as important as death then your argument applies equally for false imprisonment as for false execution. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 18:03:34 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:03:34 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c510a7$0f81e100$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff Gibbons wrote: >> That's not what I was taught. Let me look it up: >> >> http://www.onelook.com/?loc=pub&w=nuclear+bomb >> >> Nope. > > Heh. Hit the 3rd def on that page, it says "See Atomic Bomb" Here is > the definition: Followed, you showed definitions of various types of nuclear weapons - including the type used by the U.S. against Japan. > I think I said that already. Yes, yes I did. So Nuclear weapons >> > http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?ref >> id=1861697309 >> >> Nope. >> > > Hmm, linkie no workie for me. Next!!! > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_bomb >> >> Nope. >> > > Hmm, I like this one too. > Again, you included definitions of both fission and fusion bombs. >> Do you have a cite for your statement? >> >> >> > > Thanks for providing me with additional references for my statement!! > I had originally used this page: > > http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq1.html > > Specifically, this chapter. Again, you came up with definitions that included both types of nuclear weapons. We used nuclear weapons against Japan. > Perhaps next time you will actually read the works you are attempting > to use against me, instead of scanning the first paragraph. > > Jeff G. Oh, I read it extensively. What puzzled me is that you used the same definitions as I used to show that atomic bombs are nuclear weapons, but seem to be still denying it. I do not understand your argument at all. Atomic bombs are nuclear weapons. Hydrogen bombs are nucler weapons. Fission bombs are nuclear weapons. Fussion bombs are nuclear weapons. These aren't definitions that only physists use, these are definitions that appear to be universal. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Feb 11 18:05:40 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:05:40 -0600 Subject: Politics? Message-ID: Um, guys, are we getting kind of political again? Can we maybe shut it down? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From gomi at pollywog.com Fri Feb 11 18:07:48 2005 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:07:48 -0800 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050212004745.GA1282@bofh.com> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> <20050212004745.GA1282@bofh.com> Message-ID: <420D64F4.7020301@pollywog.com> Jot Powers wrote: >Yes, but that "BUT" is a doozy. The fact is we can't guarantee it, >as the "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement has shown in the >face of DNA evidence over the last 10 years. > > This is pretty much the only reason I don't support the death penalty. I'm quite at home, morally and philosophically, with the idea that some people need killing. It's the IFF that I'm a little sticky on. On the other side, however, how big IS the gap between 30 years of jail and execution, for an innocent? Restoring those lost 30 years is every bit as impossible as restoring a snuffed out life. To that end, striving to improve the accuracy rate for convictions is a key judicial-reform priority. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Feb 11 13:09:45 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:09:45 -0800 Subject: Politics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1108156184.2781.50.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Yes,sir. Shutting it down, sir. I should really write a long diatribe in one of the books about capital punishment, so we can argue it here. Alas, it wouldn't fit in. Hmmm...maybe.... :gets back to work: On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 18:05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Um, guys, are we getting kind of political again? Can we maybe shut > it down? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 18:10:35 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:10:35 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology References: <000701c510a7$0f81e100$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: Oh, I read it extensively. What puzzled me is that you used the same definitions as I used to show that atomic bombs are nuclear weapons, but seem to be still denying it. I do not understand your argument at all. Atomic bombs are nuclear weapons. Hydrogen bombs are nucler weapons. Fission bombs are nuclear weapons. Fussion bombs are nuclear weapons. These aren't definitions that only physists use, these are definitions that appear to be universal. Reread this part: It is, as you doubtless realize, based on the terminology used. Atomic weapons is the term used to refer to the first fission weapons used, the implosion type known as the Fat Man, and the "gun" type known as the Little Boy. "Nuclear" is the term commonly used to refer to the more powerful fusion weapons. I was using the words that some people use, especially the layperson, to differentiat between fission and fusion weapons. I never disputed that they all use a nuclear reaction, wiether it is a fission, boosted fission, fusion, or fission-fusion-fission device. I was staying out of the science of it, as the difference between the types of devices was irrelevent to most people. Every definition I cited, including the ones you provided, illucidated on the two terms, and did so in a manner nearly identical to the way I originally did. Jeff G. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 18:19:18 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:19:18 -0700 Subject: Politics? References: <1108156184.2781.50.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" To: "David Dyer-Bennet" Cc: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Politics? > Yes,sir. Shutting it down, sir. > > I should really write a long diatribe in one of the books about capital > punishment, so we can argue it here. Alas, it wouldn't fit in. > > Hmmm...maybe.... > > :gets back to work: > > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 18:05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Um, guys, are we getting kind of political again? Can we maybe shut > > it down? > > The funny thing is, this illustrates the discussion we had on arguments we had previously. Most discussions are about the Drageara novels, and can be based on facts found in the novels. Points based on those facts can usually be argued to a successful resolution, and this was the position that I and a few others held. Politics (and religion), on the other hand, are typically based on beliefs, with few if any facts, thus can not be argued to a successful resolution, as changing the beliefs of others with nothing other than your own convictions is an uphill battle. Jeff G. (yeah, I know it's brief and has holes in it. Gimme a break, my kids are hungry, I have to feed them before they devour each other.) From ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net Fri Feb 11 18:48:55 2005 From: ivanyouidiot at earthlink.net (Timothy Scott) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:48:55 -0800 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f2a6406afc785feb4d07f5c0d79cef3@earthlink.net> On Feb 11, 2005, at 11:34 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:56:26 -0700, Jeff G. > wrote: > >> Your splitting hairs at this point, the difference between an atomic >> weapon >> and a nuclear weapons is only of interest to physicists, the end >> result is the same. > > My bachelor's was in physics. Could you enlighten me on this > difference? > > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > I read someplace that a nuke (i. e. a hydrogen bomb) is a "fusion" weapon whereas an atomic bomb is a "fission" weapon. The same source said that a fusion weapon is so powerful that it requires a fission weapon for a trigger. Since I'm a total nontechnical person I'm guessing that the trigger is like blasting caps for dynamite. I have no idea how accurate any of this is. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 18:54:48 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:54:48 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c510ae$3783b6e0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jeff Gibbons wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Brazee" > To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:03 PM > Subject: RE: nuclear terminology > > > J > > Oh, I read it extensively. What puzzled me is that you used the same > definitions as I used to show that atomic bombs are nuclear weapons, > but seem to be still denying it. I do not understand your argument > at all. > > Atomic bombs are nuclear weapons. > Hydrogen bombs are nucler weapons. > Fission bombs are nuclear weapons. > Fussion bombs are nuclear weapons. > > These aren't definitions that only physists use, these are > definitions that appear to be universal. > > > Reread this: Done. Had some misspellings I didn't notice. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Feb 11 18:56:10 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:56:10 EST Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) Message-ID: <155.4a2d287c.2f3eca4a@aol.com> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote on Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) >Steve himself is secretly Mario. He travels >to Dragaera, along with his trusty still-a-dog >dog and his parrot Doc, through the Necromantic >Gate he hides behind his Grateful Dead records. >The whole "he doesn't *look* Dragaeran" thing >is covered up with platform shoes and a cute asian >make-up artist he brings with him. >That's why we never see Mario and Steve in the same >place! >(Ask a silly question....;) Hi, Wait, you have it backwards. Mario is Steve. Mario is thrown by Sethra's spell to Earth. I was going to look up a description of Mario, but then I realized that the only description we have available of Mario and members of House Jhereg come from Steve. Heh! Well, whoever Mario is, I am glad Aliera and Mario are back together. Bye. Linda G. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 11 19:01:53 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:01:53 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c510af$3523ff80$667ba8c0@Dad133> [Jeff G.] Reread this part: It is, as you doubtless realize, based on the terminology used. Atomic weapons is the term used to refer to the first fission weapons used, the implosion type known as the Fat Man, and the "gun" type known as the Little Boy. "Nuclear" is the term commonly used to refer to the more powerful fusion weapons. [Howard Brazee] But I don't realize this at all. In fact, I have never come across that distinction. When you mentioned it, I pulled out a bunch of dictionaries to find out if I was missing something. The dictionary definitions didn't seem to indicate that. [Jeff G.] I was using the words that some people use, especially the layperson, to differentiat between fission and fusion weapons. Jeff G. [Howard Brazee] Some people implies more than one person. Maybe even enough to make it to a dictionary. It would be nice to know if this were true. Language changes, and I would like to keep up. [Jeff G.] I never disputed that they all use a nuclear reaction, wiether it is a fission, boosted fission, fusion, or fission-fusion-fission device. I was staying out of the science of it, as the difference between the types of devices was irrelevent to most people. Every definition I cited, including the ones you provided, illucidated on the two terms, and did so in a manner nearly identical to the way I originally did. [Howard Brazee] And I never had a disagreement with this part of your discussion. From joelynch at charter.net Fri Feb 11 19:27:14 2005 From: joelynch at charter.net (joelynch) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:27:14 -0800 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: What nation ought to be trusted with weapons of terror? Or weapons of mass destruction? I've never heard of such a beast. > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:39 AM > To: Howard Brazee > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: The Nuclear family > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > weapons of terror. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Feb 11 19:41:26 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:41:26 EST Subject: Dragaeran Geopolitics and Economy Message-ID: in response to a posting from Howard Brazee Friday, February 11, 2005 6:01 AM > > Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of > relationship do they have with each other economically? > > > Jeff G. wrote on Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:11:26 -0700 >>No mention of what the East takes as trade, we know that diamonds >>do not seem to have a high value. Hi, I do not think we know that the Easterners knew that diamonds had been found in Sandyhome or whatever the Easterners called it. I wonder if the Easterners ever figured it out. I think Easterners would hold diamonds to have high value because ...diamonds are well diamonds. Speaking of diamonds or other shiny things or card or flower or flowers or candy or chocolate or whatever, have a Happy St. Valentine's Day ... Monday. Linda G. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 11 19:44:51 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:44:51 -0800 Subject: Politics? In-Reply-To: <1108156184.2781.50.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050212034459.KIEX19250.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:10 PM > To: David Dyer-Bennet > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Politics? > > Yes,sir. Shutting it down, sir. > > I should really write a long diatribe in one of the books > about capital punishment, so we can argue it here. Alas, it > wouldn't fit in. > > Hmmm...maybe.... > > :gets back to work: > How about the justice or injustice of the death sentence nearly executed upon our Heroes in TPG? I think it counts... With that in mind: It was, like, totally wrong to want to sentence the Fab Foursome to death. Theirs is a good example of how the death penalty can be abused, and so provides an argument against capital punishment in general. I think, like, that, um, the author (whose name I forget atm; AFB) was trying to make a serious case against the death penalty there. In fact, I declare it to be the case. Cheers, Shawn From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 11 19:57:38 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:57:38 -0500 Subject: The Nuclear family Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: joelynch [mailto:joelynch at charter.net] > > What nation ought to be trusted with weapons of terror? Or weapons of mass > destruction? > > I've never heard of such a beast. > This ideology is all fine and good, and I agree with it as far as it goes, but it offers exactly zero helpful ideas to the real world problems surrounding the destructive problems mankind has created for itself. Sorry, I know we're killing this OT thread, I just couldn't help it. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 11:44:53 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:44:53 -0500 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:28:45 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > There's nothing barbaric about executing people who have > committed sufficiently dire crimes. Society has no obligation > to support them once they have proven themselves unwilling to > live by even the most basic rules of society. To be honest, it's > an option that should be a lot *easier* than it is presently. > For example, I think it would be reasonable to apply the death > penalty to any case of deliberate, premeditated murder. So let us not support them. Sentence them to life in prison. If they work and farm their own food, they are allowed to eat it and not die. If they don't, they die. Any extras could be donated to people in the African continent. The plumbing's broken? Train prisoners to repair it themselves if they want it. Disease? Better hope one of them is a doctor, or has the knack for it. This way we're not responsible; if they want to live they have to do everything themselves. However, there should be some system that they could keep in touch with the real world, so if they are truly not guilty they can be reintroduced with minimal penalties. This way we respect their free will and not take anything away. > Now, making sure the person to be executed it actually guilty is > another matter. > > > 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with > > health care. > > Gee, people who can pay for the health care they desire get the > best health care in the world here in the USA. > > Do you perhaps mean that a nation is backward if it doesn't force > doctors to treat patients regardless of their ability to pay? I think Steve means that a nation is backward if it lets those who cannot afford treatment die simply because they cannot pay outrageous prices for medication and surgeries. > > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth > > concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more > > direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the > > cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant militarism). > > You mean like the Saudi royal family, or the Iranian "Death to > America!" legislature? Of course Saddam was a marvel of secular > humanism... Don't think there was any argument on that point. However, religion has no place in government, period, because we get Holy Wars. Christians are just as guilty as anyone else in this regard; does the terms "evil empire" or "axis of evil" sound familiar? > > 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own > > citizens in prison. > > No argument there. I concur. > > There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a > > nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with > > weapons of terror. > > No nation can be trusted with "weapons of terror", because such > weapons are inherently evil. Nuclear weapons are not inherently > evil. They are merely inherently very, very destructive and > include nasty side effects. I don't think that I would pick any > nation as being "trustable" with nuclear weapons. No government > can be trusted with that amount of power. Unfortunately, waving > the magic wand won't make the missiles go away. > > I can, however, easily separate out a list of nations that I > would not under any circumstances trust with nuclear weapons. > I can make an even shorter list of nations for which I would put > my life on the line in a military action to prevent their > acquisition of a nuclear weapon, or to destroy such capability > already in existance. No nation is different than any other, just repainted and sold as something completely different. Some have different forms of economies but there are still social classes; some have different forms of government but there are people who still break laws and are never punished. However, there's no way to convince anyone to disarm completely because we all take something Benjamin Franklin once wrote to heart: "Love your neighbor, but don't tear down your hedge." -Louis From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Feb 12 11:57:55 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:57:55 -0500 Subject: The Nuclear family Message-ID: <4BD3AD71.365E3C3E.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/11/2005 7:28:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: >There's nothing barbaric about executing people who have >committed sufficiently dire crimes. ?Society has no obligation >to support them once they have proven themselves unwilling to >live by even the most basic rules of society. ?To be honest, it's >an option that should be a lot *easier* than it is presently. ? >For example, I think it would be reasonable to apply the death >penalty to any case of deliberate, premeditated murder. > >Now, making sure the person to be executed it actually guilty is >another matter. > Some punishments of other countries are much better than ours. When I was in high school, our health teacher had a list of "How They Deal With Drunk Drivers In Other Countries" or something like that. My favorite is El Salvador (Ithink, I could be wrong); You first offence is your last, death by firing squad. In another country, they take you out so far from the city you drove in, and make you walk back under escort. Another one is you're basically embarassed to death. And so many more. >> 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with >> health care. > >Gee, people who can pay for the health care they desire get the >best health care in the world here in the USA. ? > Not always true. Where I work, we provide the best health care no matter what. We have a program that makes us eat the cost of something if a patient truely can not afford to pay (ie: MRIs cost thousends of dollars, I don't make what I could be making because of it). >Do you perhaps mean that a nation is backward if it doesn't force >doctors to treat patients regardless of their ability to pay? ? > And doctors here are not always forced. Again, with speaking to a lot of providers where I work, they truly care about their patients and do what they can to help them. I know a few personally who would research the cheepest of the best to help their patients, then find financial aid for them. I know it sounds like only a hand full, but there are more out there. And once you're on the other side of the fence, you see everything more clearly. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Feb 12 12:22:43 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:22:43 -0500 Subject: angery Message-ID: <2C515A39.6D7C7D66.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok people, I have a long list of those who still have to send the money for these damned stickers. The last e-mail was nice, this one is a little nastier. I am sorry, but I am a little upset. Thank you everyone who sent out their money already. There are no big purchases, most of them are for only $4-$6, that's not a lot of money to send, but when there are enouhg who didn't send that small amount, that adds up to a bigger amount. I am still hoping to donate the left over to you know who. I will soon be sending out personal e-mails to those who said they want stickers and haven't paid up. I am sorry, but I have bills to pay, too. -Crystal From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Feb 12 12:22:41 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:22:41 -0500 Subject: Politics? (now on-tpoic) Message-ID: <4D6473CC.391C72FD.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 2/11/2005 4:09:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Brust writes: > I should really write a long diatribe in one of the books > about capital punishment, so we can argue it here. Alas, it > wouldn't fit in. Wouldn't fit? Do you mean Cawti *isn't* on death row right now? --KG From frank at exit.com Sat Feb 12 12:37:39 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:37:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: angery In-Reply-To: <2C515A39.6D7C7D66.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <200502122037.j1CKbdRi014057@realtime.exit.com> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Ok people, I have a long list of those who still have to send the money for these damned stickers. The last e-mail was nice, this one is a little nastier. I am sorry, but I am a little upset. Thank you everyone who sent out their money already. There are no big purchases, most of them are for only $4-$6, that's not a lot of money to send, but when there are enouhg who didn't send that small amount, that adds up to a bigger amount. I am still hoping to donate the left over to you know who. I will soon be sending out personal e-mails to those who said they want stickers and haven't paid up. > I am sorry, but I have bills to pay, too. Now, I didn't request any of these because I'm just not a "sticker" kind of guy, but if I had I would pony up. The thought has crossed my mind to go ahead and send Crystal a few bucks just to make up for some of the deadbeats. The problem is that this shouldn't be a problem in the first place. I had hoped that this list would attract a non-deadbeat kind of crowd. I can understand being busy; I started a new job this week and I'm busy as two kinds of hell, but if I had made such a promise I would keep it, busy or not. The deadbeats know who they are. Apparently, Crystal knows who they are as well. I respectfully suggest that if said funds (or at least a _damned_ good excuse) aren't shortly forthcoming, said deadbeats be publically shamed on this list. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From rone at ennui.org Sat Feb 12 15:29:15 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:29:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050208213805.61839.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050212232915.CD9C926CE2@boredom.ennui.org> Jerry Friedman writes: "Hey-sus"! There's no [z] sound in most dialects of Spanish except before a voiced consonant (as in "machismo", at least in American Spanish). I'm sure you mean "Heh-SUS", since the Spanish 'e' is pronounced 'eh', not 'ey', and i'd love to find out how this little nugget has become common usage in the Anglophone world. rone -- Remember Remember It's tilted From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Feb 12 15:54:03 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:54:03 -0800 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050211015255.GA22884@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:47:52 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, lazarus wrote: > >> The only reason we're safer now is that the paradigm shifted. Before >> 9/11, everyone knew the best way to survive a hijacking was to sit >> still and wait it out. > >Not quite everyone, if I understand correctly that the govt received >dozens of warnings of hijacking threats to commercial airliners during >the summer of '01, and that the danger of "spectacular" suicidal crashes >was understood in that context. (I'm unaware how distributed, >overlapping, and credibly sourced the two sets of information were.) > Yup, lots and lots of warniings. And Condi's claim that "nobody ever imagined" using planes as missiles is rather specious, considering an exercise of that very scenario was underway on the morning of 9/11. >I also was under the impression that if hijackers were able to >gaining control of the cockpit in a lightning strike, it would all be >over, given the reinforced door. (And that it wasn't clear that the >heroic passengers on the downed flight succeeded - that contention among >the hijackers may have been the reason for the crash - anyone know the >latest on that question?) Lots of different theories. I'm of the opinion that we shot that one down, then came up "Let's Roll" because some heroes were needed. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 12 15:56:20 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:56:20 -0000 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050212235630.MQUD15415.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Gibbons [mailto:Log0n5150 at hotmail.com] > Sent: 12 February 2005 02:11 > To: Howard Brazee; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: nuclear terminology > wether it is a fission, boosted fission, fusion, > or fission-fusion-fission device. I was staying out of the > science of it, as the difference between the types of devices > was irrelevent to most people. I don't know about that, if you are 10-15 miles away from ground zero, it might make large amounts of difference. 15-20 kiloton vs Multi-Megaton. :-) Cheers Mark From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 12 15:58:04 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:58:04 -0000 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050212235816.IUTQ769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] > Sent: 12 February 2005 23:54 > To: Philip Hart > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) > > > Yup, lots and lots of warniings. And Condi's claim that > "nobody ever imagined" using planes as missiles is rather > specious, considering an exercise of that very scenario was > underway on the morning of 9/11. > Didn't anybody read Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor"? Cheers MArk From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Feb 12 16:03:53 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:03:53 -0800 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <366t01dm3h2gv6hs7endmafaharbgovbia@4ax.com> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:31:38 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > >> On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: >> >> > There's a real difference between fission bombs and fusion bombs as far as >> > physicists are concerned - but the social-political difference is >> > neglible. We treat them the same when found in a third world country. >> >> I think that's the heart of the matter. Everyone gets nervous when >> weapons of terror are in the hands of "backward" nations, just because >> of the obvious conflict between the nation being backward in so many >> ways, and the weapon being advanced. > >Everybody gets nervous when weapons of terror are in the hands of >unstable or loosely-governed nations. Everybody should be nervous >if nuclear weapons are controlled by countries insufficiently >technologically sophisticated to safeguard and maintain them. > > >> What constitutes a "backward" nation? That's harder to say. Here are a >> few general guidelines, however: >> >> 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of >> capital punishment. > >This is more or less a religious argument - I happen to oppose capital >punishment, but experience shows that such nations are capable of >responsible possesion of nukes. > But capital punishment is still a barbaric practise. > >> 2. Backward nations are still unable to provide their own citizens with >> health care. > >We are able to provide our citizens with health care. Maybe not free, >universal, cutting-edge health care, but this seems like an irrelevancy >in context. > If it's not universal, we're not providing health care. Isn't the welfare of one's citizens pretty much the whole purpose of a government? > >> 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of the wealth >> concentrated in the hands of very few, which few exercise more and more >> direct political power in defense of that wealth (usually under the >> cover some sort of religious doctrine combined with blatant militarism). > >The Soviet Union managed under these conditions to behave responsibly. > Because of the threat of the US (M.A.D. actually seemed to work). But now we have a completely different world, something certain people in power right now don't seem to understand. > >> 4. Backward nations generally keep an unreasonable number of their own >> citizens in prison. > >Ditto. > > >> There are others, of course. But I think most people would agree that a >> nation that displays those characteristics ought not to trusted with >> weapons of terror. > >Most people are of course more interested about when the next episode of >Desperate Housewives is than the FSU's loose nukes, or Pakistan's >technology export policy, or how to deal with a nuclear-armed Iran. > >I for one am glad my racist, fearful, imperfect country developed nuclear >weapons in the face of the USSR's expansionism and development of nukes. >I'd like to see us continue nuclear disarmament, perhaps to 0; but the >extent to which our arsenal has restrained China from annexing its >neighbors and North Korea from waging war on South Korea and so forth >would have to be considered, and that is a question for another day. We could eventually get to zero, but it would take a lot of political and economic capital from a lot of nations. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Feb 12 16:06:13 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:06:13 -0800 Subject: angery In-Reply-To: <2C515A39.6D7C7D66.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <2C515A39.6D7C7D66.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:22:43 -0500, you wrote: >Ok people, I have a long list of those who still have to send the money for these damned stickers. The last e-mail was nice, this one is a little nastier. I am sorry, but I am a little upset. Thank you everyone who sent out their money already. There are no big purchases, most of them are for only $4-$6, that's not a lot of money to send, but when there are enouhg who didn't send that small amount, that adds up to a bigger amount. I am still hoping to donate the left over to you know who. I will soon be sending out personal e-mails to those who said they want stickers and haven't paid up. >I am sorry, but I have bills to pay, too. >-Crystal Heck, Crystal, I'd be happy to pay for a couple that were ordered and not paid for. Send me the info. From dave at waveridersystems.com Sat Feb 12 17:34:09 2005 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:34:09 -0800 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) References: <10351781.7FE2C50E.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050211015255.GA22884@bofh.com> Message-ID: <000e01c5116c$1fe26cc0$9bf256d1@queeg.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "lazarus" To: "Philip Hart" Cc: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: Re: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:47:52 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, lazarus wrote: > >> The only reason we're safer now is that the paradigm shifted. Before >> 9/11, everyone knew the best way to survive a hijacking was to sit >> still and wait it out. > >Not quite everyone, if I understand correctly that the govt received >dozens of warnings of hijacking threats to commercial airliners during >the summer of '01, and that the danger of "spectacular" suicidal crashes >was understood in that context. Steven King and Tom Clancy both did this well before 9/11. It's not as if the ideas weren't out there. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Feb 12 20:34:04 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:34:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <366t01dm3h2gv6hs7endmafaharbgovbia@4ax.com> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <366t01dm3h2gv6hs7endmafaharbgovbia@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, lazarus wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:31:38 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > > >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > >> > >> 1. Backward nations have not yet abandoned the barbaric practice of > >> capital punishment. > > > >This is more or less a religious argument - I happen to oppose capital > >punishment, but experience shows that such nations are capable of > >responsible possesion of nukes. > > But capital punishment is still a barbaric practise. Some might say that the practice of raising animals for slaughter is barbaric. Or abortion. Or worshipping gods. Or contact sports. Or girl's gymnastics at the ruin-the-skeleton level. Or burning hydrocarbons. Or spending time reading books and discussing them instead of devoting those hours to improving the lot of the downtrodden. From rone at ennui.org Sat Feb 12 20:39:20 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <000e01c5116c$1fe26cc0$9bf256d1@queeg.net> Message-ID: <20050213043920.8BAE226D41@boredom.ennui.org> Dave Godwin writes: Steven King and Tom Clancy both did this well before 9/11. It's not as if the ideas weren't out there. Let's not forget that guy who wanted to kill Nixon via this method. rone -- Remember Remember It's tilted From bertowud at cox.net Sat Feb 12 21:00:01 2005 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 0:00:01 -0500 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) Message-ID: <20050213050003.CVNO22225.lakermmtao08.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> > From: rone at ennui.org (rone) > Date: 2005/02/12 Sat PM 11:39:20 EST > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) > > Dave Godwin writes: > Steven King and Tom Clancy both did this well before 9/11. It's not as if > the ideas weren't out there. > > Let's not forget that guy who wanted to kill Nixon via this method. > > rone And the Lone Gunmen TV Show. (I still can't believe I watched that series. Robert ------------------- A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. --Sir Winston Churchill From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Feb 12 23:28:34 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:28:34 -0600 Subject: fingernail clippers In-Reply-To: <20050213043920.8BAE226D41@boredom.ennui.org> (rone@ennui.org's message of "Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:39:20 -0800 (PST)") References: <20050213043920.8BAE226D41@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (rone) writes: > Dave Godwin writes: > Steven King and Tom Clancy both did this well before 9/11. It's not as if > the ideas weren't out there. > > Let's not forget that guy who wanted to kill Nixon via this method. And when Auburn Calloway tried to take out FedEx headquarters in Memphis by crashing flight FDX705 into it (7-Apr-1994). One of the gaudiest fights I've ever heard about. Gory, nasty, very *very* VERY close-run thing (the good guys won, managed to land the plane safely back in Memphis). has a good description of the situation followed by a transcript of the cockpit voice recorder. JT: Do you, uh, live over in Arkansas, Dave, or...? DS: Naw, I live in Fisherville. JT: Aw, Fisherville, great spot. (Sounds of hammer blows striking pilots.) AP: Ow! JT: God! JT: Oh, ah, shit. DS: God almighty! AP: Ow! JT: What the fuck are you doing? DS: God, (groan), (groan), God almighty! God, God, God.... JT: Get him, get him, get him DS: He's going to kill us. JT: Get him! DS: Get up, get him! AP: I can't, God! -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From johne.cook at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 20:33:21 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:33:21 -0600 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <155.4a2d287c.2f3eca4a@aol.com> References: <155.4a2d287c.2f3eca4a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > > >Steve himself is secretly Mario. I've long thought that Johnny Depp would do a good Vlad, but who would you tag to play Mario in a Dragaera film? I just saw Mark Ruffalo in _Windtalkers_ and think he might play a suave, dangerous, multi-faceted Mario. Of course, this is all the worst form of fanboi flight-of-fancy, but it's fun to think about on occasion. -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From dave at waveridersystems.com Sun Feb 13 20:52:59 2005 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:52:59 -0800 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) References: <155.4a2d287c.2f3eca4a@aol.com> Message-ID: <009901c51251$0f62a0a0$54ccf7a5@queeg.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:33 PM Subject: Re: 1st in 2005! ;) > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > > > >Steve himself is secretly Mario. You sorry bastard, you've blown his secret. Now he has to kill us all. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Feb 13 21:34:57 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:34:57 EST Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) Message-ID: <143.3f132ba4.2f419281@aol.com> Johne Cook wrote on Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:33:21 -0600 On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > > >Steve himself is secretly Mario. Hey, I did not post that. Chris Olson - SunPS posted that on Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) >Steve himself is secretly Mario. He travels >to Dragaera, along with his trusty still-a-dog >dog and his parrot Doc, through the Necromantic >Gate he hides behind his Grateful Dead records. >The whole "he doesn't *look* Dragaeran" thing >is covered up with platform shoes and a cute asian >make-up artist he brings with him. >That's why we never see Mario and Steve in the same >place! >(Ask a silly question....;) >Chris I said Chris had it backwards and Chris's idea was a lot funnier. Dave Godwin wrote on Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:52:59 -0800 >>You sorry b*st*rd, you've blown his secret. Now he has to kill us all. I do not think you have to worry, Steve has gotten back to work... Steve Brust wrote on Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:09:45 -0800 SKZB> :gets back to work: Unless, of course, Steve is not talking about writing Dzur... Heh. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Feb 13 21:54:24 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:54:24 EST Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1ed.358d382e.2f419710@aol.com> Today's magic lesson is from the sorceress and Jhereg Cariss on the decisions that need to be made for an unusual spell to create an energy-filled greymist using elder sorcery. Mario speaking to Cariss: "'How much power can you summon?' 'Power?' 'Yes.' 'The question is meaningless.' 'Excuse me, it is not.' 'But...power to do what?' 'Nothing.' 'Power to do nothing?' 'Exactly.' 'I do not understand.' 'I am not surprised, for it is unlikely anyone has ever before asked such a question.' 'Then you much explain.' 'Attend me.' 'I am attending.' 'The pure power through which sorcery works, the power which the sorcerer shapes and controls in order to work the changes in matter that the sorcerer desires--that is the power I wish to summon at a certain time and a certain place. But it is important that there be a great deal of it, hence, I wish to know how much of it you can cause to be summoned.' Cariss considered. 'Well, you want to know how much undirected power can be pulled through the Orb--' 'Not through the Orb.' 'Not through the Orb? But how else--' 'Elder sorcery, of course.' 'Elder sorcery?' 'Exactly.' 'You know more than I would have thought, young man.' 'It is necessary for me to know a little of everything. Yes, I am speaking of elder sorcery.' 'Such a thing would be illegal.' Mario gave her a look impossible to describe. 'If', she said at last. 'you would explain exactly what you are trying to do--' 'No,' said Mario. A look impatience crossed Cariss's features; Mario touched the pouch into which he had put the bill; Cariss shrugged. 'I will tell you this much,' said Mario. 'I need to be able to summon an immense amount of power, using elder sorcery, and I need to put it into a certain area and keep it there, through only for a few seconds.' 'You speak of power as if it were a glass of water that you could simply put somewhere.' Mario set his glass on a table near his elbow. 'Well?' he said. 'This power will do nothing,' said Cariss, shaking her head. 'That is what I wish.' 'And you want to do it yourself?' 'Exactly.' 'Even more difficult.' 'I am not offering a small sum of money,' said Mario. 'Nor are you unskilled.' 'Are you attempting to flatter me?' 'No, madam, I am attempting to purchase your services.' 'To do what?' she said, beginning to sound a little vexed. 'To fill an area with power,' said Mario, who was, himself, becoming annoyed at having to repeat himself. 'Is it possible?' 'Possible? Anything is possible. There would need to be a medium, and--' 'A what?' 'Something upon which to lay the power.' 'Would the air not work?' 'Too insubstantial--too thin.' 'What then?' 'Thick air.' Mario frowned. 'I do not understand.' 'Fog. Mist. Air with a great deal of water mixed in, so that the energy can attach itself to the water.' 'How much energy can you supply?' She shook her head. 'You still do not comprehend--it doesn't matter how much, because it won't be doing anything.' 'Good,' said Mario. 'Then I wish for a great deal of power. A great deal.' 'If your wish is to attract the attention of every sorcerer in a thousand-mile radius, well, I assure you there are easier ways to go about it.' 'That is not my wish.' 'It will happen, nevertheless.' 'Then let it.' Cariss stared at him, as if trying to see into his mind to discover the use to which he intended to put this unusual spell. Then she sighed and said, 'Does it matter what form it takes?' 'I do not understand.' 'The spell must be invested into an object if you, rather than I, are to use it. Does it matter what object?' 'No. Something small.' 'Will you be setting it off, or will another? If it might be another, I will instruct it to release upon a word or a sign. If it is to be you, then we can arrange for it to respond to your will. Or, if you prefer, I can arrange it so you simply open it like cracking an egg.' 'That would be best.' 'That is how it shall be.' 'Then you can do it?' 'I can do it.' 'How much power?' 'There is no limit to the amount of power available, only to the amount one person can control. When the energy isn't doing anything, it need not be controlled.' 'And so?' 'And so we will summon more power than, I think, has ever been seen before in one place--and all of this power will do nothing except to exist, alerting ever sorcerer for a thousand miles in all directions, and then it will be as if it had never happened.' 'Excellent.' 'How long do you wish it to hold together? A few seconds is easy; after that, I must find power to hold it together, and this power can only come from the Orb, or from itself; and I have no wish to attempt to control that sort of power even for something trivial--especially for something trivial.' 'Ten seconds would be good, five seconds may well be enough.' Cariss considered for a moment, then said 'Eight seconds, then; or perhaps a little more. I can do that safely enough.' 'So be it. Eight seconds. How, precisely, will it work?' 'It will be a small glass ball. You will shatter the glass, and the area--how big an area?' 'A fifty-foot diameter will be sufficient.' 'Very well. The area will fill with fog--' 'How long will it take to fill?' 'Do you wish it to happen quickly?' 'Yes.' 'Less than the drawing of a breath, then.' 'Very well. 'It will fill with fog; and each particle of this fog will be charged with immense power, which will do nothing, and everyone within the circle will be bathed in power, which will do nothing, although,' she frowned, 'it may feel a trifle odd, I don't know. In any case, after eight seconds, the power and fog will dissipate, and nothing will have changed.' 'Good. That is what I wish. Apropos the fog--' 'Yes?' 'Can it be made thick, so that a person might hide in it?' 'That is easily done. It can be made so thick you will not be able to see your hand, though it be six inches in front of your eyes.' 'Perfect.' Cariss shook her head, as though resigning herself to remaining mystified. 'When do you need it?' 'When can I have it?' 'You can have it in an hour.' 'Then that is when I need it.' 'It will be ready.' 'I will wait here.' 'Very well. Oh, have you a preference for the mist?' 'A preference in what way?' 'Its color. Black, or red, or grey, or--' 'Grey,' said Mario. 'The color of death. Let it be grey.' 'It shall be grey,' said the sorceress." Five Hundred Years After, Chapter the Twenty-ninth, page 461-465 Hi, I think the word ever should be every "and all of this power will do nothing except to exist, alerting ever sorcerer for a thousand miles in all directions," I thought it was interesting that after Cariss says "'You speak of power as if it were a glass of water that you could simply put somewhere.' Mario set his glass on a table near his elbow. 'Well?' he said." page 461 His glass had or contained water. Also the bill: "'The bill,' said Mario, 'is negotiable, in whole or in part and can be drawn on the Jhereg treasury.' 'So I perceive. It is not a small amount.' 'I require but a tenth part of it; the rest can be yours.'" It was a "small piece of paper." page 460 What is it? A cashiers check? I assume Mario did not have this little bit of incriminating evidence on him when he was in the palace earlier. Perhaps the Jhereg were planning on getting this piece of paper back before it was found or cashed by anyone else. 'It will be a small glass ball.' I thought why did Mario not ask Cariss if she had a pearl to use. But then what if Cariss was the person who put the spell on the pearl and then she might have put two and two together. So it was better not to be so ironic. Bye. Linda G. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Feb 14 03:46:35 2005 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:46:35 -0800 Subject: fingernail clippers (wasRe: Defender always wins?) In-Reply-To: <20050213043920.8BAE226D41@boredom.ennui.org> References: <000e01c5116c$1fe26cc0$9bf256d1@queeg.net> <20050213043920.8BAE226D41@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <4s311156805u4ojt8q1odj4u79qlicd660@4ax.com> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:39:20 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >Dave Godwin writes: > Steven King and Tom Clancy both did this well before 9/11. It's not as if > the ideas weren't out there. > >Let's not forget that guy who wanted to kill Nixon via this method. > Let's not forget someone crashed a small private plane into the White House just a few weeks before this, too. From howard at brazee.net Mon Feb 14 04:58:24 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:58:24 -0700 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c51294$df0602a0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Johne Cook wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > >>> Steve himself is secretly Mario. > > I've long thought that Johnny Depp would do a good Vlad, but who would > you tag to play Mario in a Dragaera film? I just saw Mark Ruffalo in > _Windtalkers_ and think he might play a suave, dangerous, > multi-faceted Mario. Trouble with this is if Steve doesn't want us to know who Mario *really* is. Casting him solidifies his identity. From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Feb 14 09:05:41 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:05:41 -0600 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) References: <155.4a2d287c.2f3eca4a@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c512b7$6a1df330$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> meh..... i've been engaged in rampant fanboi ism for several years now with talk of a hellblazer movie (now coming out as Constantine, starring our foremost shakespearian actor, keanu reeves, the joy the joy {the sarcasm, the sarcasm}).... due to the rampant mutilation of the ideas from over an over 200+ comic book vs the strange abortive thing they are going to put on screen, talk all you want about a movie and hope they never make one. the perfect situation would be that they pay steve an absolutely ridiculous amount of money for the movie rights and he keeps final creative say over casting and script. while i wouldn't expect him to write the script without help (afaik he hasn't done movie scripts, but i don't stalk him so who knows), having the writer not let them do things like give morrolan a mustache or cast julie strain as aliera would be... helpful. andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:33 PM Subject: Re: 1st in 2005! ;) > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > >> >Steve himself is secretly Mario. > > I've long thought that Johnny Depp would do a good Vlad, but who would > you tag to play Mario in a Dragaera film? I just saw Mark Ruffalo in > _Windtalkers_ and think he might play a suave, dangerous, > multi-faceted Mario. > > Of course, this is all the worst form of fanboi flight-of-fancy, but > it's fun to think about on occasion. > -- > johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 14 09:16:15 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:16:15 -0500 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) Message-ID: <3976E3E7.1092707C.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/13/2005 11:33:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Johne Cook writes: >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > >> >Steve himself is secretly Mario. > >I've long thought that Johnny Depp would do a good Vlad, but who would >you tag to play Mario in a Dragaera film? ?I just saw Mark Ruffalo in >_Windtalkers_ and think he might play a suave, dangerous, >multi-faceted Mario. > >Of course, this is all the worst form of fanboi flight-of-fancy, but >it's fun to think about on occasion. >-- Peirce Brosnon (sp?) would be pretty good for Morrolan. -C > From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 14 09:24:18 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:24:18 +0000 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) Message-ID: <05F243BB.392C4289.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/14/2005 7:58:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >Trouble with this is if Steve doesn't want us to know who Mario *really* is. >Casting him solidifies his identity. > > But isn't Mario just Mario? I thought I read in an interview somewhere that Mario isn't really someone else (I'll be damned if I can ever find it again). -C > > From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 09:22:21 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:22:21 +0100 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <3976E3E7.1092707C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com wrote >Peirce Brosnon (sp?) would be pretty good for Morrolan. >-C Well, Brosnan is 30 cm short of 7 feet. ;) Apart from that he wouldn't be too bad, I agree, assuming you hide his greying hair, and give him a noble's point. BTW I know a girl with a clear noble's point. She's gonna play elf in a LARP, pretty cool. :) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 09:26:46 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:26:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050214172646.5169.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> LARP? Martin Wohlert wrote:MedCat7 at aol.com wrote >Peirce Brosnon (sp?) would be pretty good for Morrolan. >-C Well, Brosnan is 30 cm short of 7 feet. ;) Apart from that he wouldn't be too bad, I agree, assuming you hide his greying hair, and give him a noble's point. BTW I know a girl with a clear noble's point. She's gonna play elf in a LARP, pretty cool. :) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 09:30:45 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:30:45 +0100 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <20050214172646.5169.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: S SHafer top posted: >LARP? > > Live Action Role Playing. You take your chainmail shirt, latex sword and 800 friends and go out in the woods and pretend to be someone else for some days. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From casey at the-bat.net Mon Feb 14 09:31:58 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:31:58 -0500 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <3976E3E7.1092707C.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Peirce Brosnon (sp?) would be pretty good for Morrolan. > -C Back in his Remington Steele days, he'd have been brilliant. These days, I think he'd read as too old. Morrolan is _still_ very young. Which accounts for some of his brash and iconoclastic ways. :) Casey From casey at the-bat.net Mon Feb 14 09:33:20 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:33:20 -0500 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <20050214172646.5169.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: S SHafer asked: > LARP? IIRC, Live Action Role Play From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 14 09:46:20 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:46:20 -0500 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) Message-ID: <1FA13B2C.752723A6.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/14/2005 12:30:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Martin Wohlert" writes: >Live Action Role Playing. You take your chainmail shirt, latex sword and 800 >friends and go out in the woods and pretend to be someone else for some >days. > I love LARPing. I play amtgard. I love them name Sethra, so I took it for my RP name (I had Tazendra, I love that one, too, but that one is D&D). Man am I a loser :o) -C From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 09:52:28 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:52:28 +0100 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: <1FA13B2C.752723A6.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >I love LARPing. I play amtgard. I love them name Sethra, so I took it for >my RP name (I had Tazendra, I love that one, too, but that one is D&D). Man >am I a loser :o) >-C I don't know what amtgard is. But then I'm from Sweden, and I think LARPing is done a bit differently here, we have larger forests for one thing, I expect. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/ From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Feb 14 09:18:58 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:18:58 -0500 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: References: <155.4a2d287c.2f3eca4a@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214121753.034ba550@pop.east.cox.net> At 23:33 02/13/2005, Johne Cook wrote: >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > > > >Steve himself is secretly Mario. > >I've long thought that Johnny Depp would do a good Vlad, but who would >you tag to play Mario in a Dragaera film? I just saw Mark Ruffalo in >_Windtalkers_ and think he might play a suave, dangerous, >multi-faceted Mario. > >Of course, this is all the worst form of fanboi flight-of-fancy, but >it's fun to think about on occasion. No one. Vlad has never met Mario, he only knows him by reputation. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 10:11:36 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214121753.034ba550@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050214181136.88892.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> How do we know that Kragar isn't Mario? Maybe he has been paid to kill Vlad at some point in the future (he is known for refusing time-restraints). "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote:At 23:33 02/13/2005, Johne Cook wrote: >On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:56:45 -0800 (PST), FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > > > >Steve himself is secretly Mario. > >I've long thought that Johnny Depp would do a good Vlad, but who would >you tag to play Mario in a Dragaera film? I just saw Mark Ruffalo in >_Windtalkers_ and think he might play a suave, dangerous, >multi-faceted Mario. > >Of course, this is all the worst form of fanboi flight-of-fancy, but >it's fun to think about on occasion. No one. Vlad has never met Mario, he only knows him by reputation. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 14 10:11:43 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:11:43 -0500 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) Message-ID: <3D50A867.00D61AFC.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/14/2005 12:52:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Martin Wohlert" writes: > >I don't know what amtgard is. But then I'm from Sweden, and I think LARPing >is done a bit differently here, we have larger forests for one thing, I >expect. > >/Mrtn > It's probably a bit more indepth in Sweden *beacuse of* the large forests. Amtgard is based off of D&D, but you beat eachother up with foam swords and pretend to be someone you always wanted to be. You level up by going to the field every week and play a certain class. Here's the web site: www.amtgard.com They are all over the world (I can't think of the countries off the top of my head though). -C >_________________________________________________________________ >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >http://search.msn.com/ > > From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 13:06:59 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:06:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050214210659.51100.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Martin Wohlert wrote: > MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >I love LARPing. I play amtgard. I love them name Sethra, so I took it > for > >my RP name (I had Tazendra, I love that one, too, but that one is D&D). > Man > >am I a loser :o) > >-C > > I don't know what amtgard is. But then I'm from Sweden, and I think > LARPing > is done a bit differently here, we have larger forests for one thing, I > expect. Hm. I'd expect we have forests that are bigger than Sweden, but maybe only in Alaska. Or has deforestation gone farther than I think? -- Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 13:10:34 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050212232915.CD9C926CE2@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20050214211034.52342.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- rone wrote: > Jerry Friedman writes: > "Hey-sus"! There's no [z] sound in most dialects of Spanish except > before a voiced consonant (as in "machismo", at least in American > Spanish). > > I'm sure you mean "Heh-SUS", Well, yes. One thing at a time. > since the Spanish 'e' is pronounced 'eh', > not 'ey', and i'd love to find out how this little nugget has become > common usage in the Anglophone world. Because we don't have [E] as in "Ed" at the end of a syllable, and we don't have [e], which is really the sound here, except in the diphthong [eI] as in "hey". You could also have corrected my use of "H" for the Spanish "J". Geraldo Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Feb 14 13:13:36 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:13:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: <20050214210659.51100.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050214210659.51100.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > Hm. I'd expect we have forests that are bigger than Sweden, but > maybe only in Alaska. Or has deforestation gone farther than I > think? Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States today than there was for most of the nineteenth century. pe something about not using wood so much any more From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 13:16:44 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:16:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <000601c510af$3523ff80$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050214211644.58282.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > > > [Jeff G.] > Reread this part: > > It is, as you doubtless realize, based on the terminology used. > Atomic > weapons is the term used to refer to the first fission weapons used, > the implosion type known as the Fat Man, and the "gun" type known as > the Little Boy. "Nuclear" is the term commonly used to refer to the more > powerful fusion weapons. ... If people are really saying this, they're wrong. I suspect some of the confusion may have come from "thermonuclear", which really does mean fusion, as well as from the coincidence that people have mentioned: changing from the word "atomic" to "nuclear" and also changing from fission to fusion as the mainstay of the American nuclear arsenal. It's probably too late for "quantum leap" and "exponential", but I think the "atomic" line can be held. I got somebody mad at me on another list by arguing about physics without revealing that I have a Ph.D. in it and teach it (the guy felt ambushed), so consider it revealed. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 13:38:59 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:38:59 +0100 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gomi no Sensei wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: larp (was: 1st in 2005) >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:13:36 -0800 (PST) > >On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > Hm. I'd expect we have forests that are bigger than Sweden, but > > maybe only in Alaska. Or has deforestation gone farther than I > > think? > >Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States today >than there was for most of the nineteenth century. > >pe >something about not using wood so much any more Well, actually I don't claim that we have bigger forests per se. But, when arranging a LARP you want the forest in question to: A) Be isolated enough so the experience isn't bothered by motorways and aeroplanes all the time, but actually feels like Fantasyland, and B) That it's close enough to a human habitation, so you can actually get there in the first place. Fairly contradictory. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 14 13:46:36 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:46:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: References: <20050214210659.51100.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > Hm. I'd expect we have forests that are bigger than Sweden, but > > maybe only in Alaska. Or has deforestation gone farther than I > > think? > > Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States today > than there was for most of the nineteenth century. > > pe > something about not using wood so much any more I thought this had something to do with the rise of tree farms. If I'm right, these would be monoculture "forests" of identical-age trees, so not quite what Larpers might have in mind. From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Feb 14 13:49:40 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:49:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: References: <20050214210659.51100.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > > Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States today > > than there was for most of the nineteenth century. > > > > pe > > something about not using wood so much any more > I thought this had something to do with the rise of tree farms. > If I'm right, these would be monoculture "forests" of identical-age > trees, so not quite what Larpers might have in mind. Likely a good bit of it is farmtrees, yes, but it had been my understanding that substantial non-farm reforestation was and is taking place. Don't really know where to find a breakdown of farm v. non-farm forest area, though. I'll have to look into it. pe From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Mon Feb 14 13:53:41 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:53:41 -0500 Subject: nuclear terminology Message-ID: would it be accurate to say that "nuclear weapons" are more a catagory and "atomic weapons" are a type of weapon in that catagory? Jerry Friedman ahoo.com> cc: Subject: RE: nuclear terminology 02/14/2005 04:16 PM --- Howard Brazee wrote: > > > [Jeff G.] > Reread this part: > > It is, as you doubtless realize, based on the terminology used. > Atomic > weapons is the term used to refer to the first fission weapons used, > the implosion type known as the Fat Man, and the "gun" type known as > the Little Boy. "Nuclear" is the term commonly used to refer to the more > powerful fusion weapons. ... If people are really saying this, they're wrong. I suspect some of the confusion may have come from "thermonuclear", which really does mean fusion, as well as from the coincidence that people have mentioned: changing from the word "atomic" to "nuclear" and also changing from fission to fusion as the mainstay of the American nuclear arsenal. It's probably too late for "quantum leap" and "exponential", but I think the "atomic" line can be held. I got somebody mad at me on another list by arguing about physics without revealing that I have a Ph.D. in it and teach it (the guy felt ambushed), so consider it revealed. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 14 13:54:31 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:54:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: References: <20050214210659.51100.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States today > > > than there was for most of the nineteenth century. > > > > > > pe > > > something about not using wood so much any more > > > I thought this had something to do with the rise of tree farms. > > If I'm right, these would be monoculture "forests" of identical-age > > trees, so not quite what Larpers might have in mind. > > Likely a good bit of it is farmtrees, yes, but it had been my understanding > that substantial non-farm reforestation was and is taking place. Don't really > know where to find a breakdown of farm v. non-farm forest area, though. I'll > have to look into it. Would be interested in knowing the pre-19th century forestation #s too if you find a good source - that might be a better or at least different frame. From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 14 14:02:37 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:02:37 -0500 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) Message-ID: <497FA7CA.338FCA23.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/14/2005 4:54:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, Philip Hart writes: >Would be interested in knowing the pre-19th century forestation #s too if >you find a good source - that might be a better or at least different >frame. > In 1994 (I think), Maine was 80% forest and is the most forested state in the US. It is also called "The Pine Tree State" among other things. -C From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 14:19:34 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:19:34 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carla Hunt" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: RE: nuclear terminology > > > > > would it be accurate to say that "nuclear weapons" are more a catagory and > "atomic weapons" are a type of weapon in that catagory? > > > Not really, the terminology is. . . inaccurate, but still used. They are all "nuclear weapons", atomic weapons is the term coined for fission weapons. The term "atomic weapons" may not be used by the learned among us, but those of us with more, um, hands on application often use the old, incorrect terminology. And Jerry, I wouldn't say you ambushed me, I thought you telegraphed your opening move quite plainly. That is why my opening sentence included "as you doubtless realize". Jeff G. (wonders why Geiger counters like him so much) From howard at brazee.net Mon Feb 14 14:56:52 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:56:52 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <20050214211644.58282.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c512e8$7a298060$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jerry Friedman wrote: > I got somebody mad at me on another list by arguing about physics > without revealing that I have a Ph.D. in it and teach it (the guy > felt ambushed), so consider it revealed. In _The Way The Future Was_, Fredric Pohl told how he was in an academic setting discussing something with other scholars of the emperor Tiberius. When they disagreed about something, he pulled out an Encyclopedia Britannica which agreed with Pohl. The other distinguished scholar ceded the point without noticing the author of that article's initials: "FP". Now you know the rest of the story. _____________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Mon Feb 14 15:00:30 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:00:30 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c512e8$fbbbaae0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Carla Hunt wrote: > would it be accurate to say that "nuclear weapons" are more a > catagory and "atomic weapons" are a type of weapon in that catagory? I wouldn't say that. "Atomic weapons" is simply an older term for "nuclear weapons". When that expression was in wide use, the weapon being referred to was a fusion bomb. At about the time when the fission bomb (thermonuclear bomb) came into being, the press started referring replacing all references to "atomic" with regards to weapons and power plants with "nuclear". From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 15:43:01 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <000501c512e8$fbbbaae0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050214234302.70732.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > Carla Hunt wrote: > > would it be accurate to say that "nuclear weapons" are more a > > catagory and "atomic weapons" are a type of weapon in that catagory? > > I wouldn't say that. "Atomic weapons" is simply an older term for > "nuclear > weapons". When that expression was in wide use, the weapon being > referred > to was a fusion bomb. At about the time when the fission bomb > (thermonuclear bomb) came into being, the press started referring > replacing > all references to "atomic" with regards to weapons and power plants with > "nuclear". Right (except that you got fission and fusion backwards). Another source of confusion that I forgot about, though, is "A-bomb" (fission) and "H-bomb" (fusion). It's probably better to just forget about "atomic bomb" and use "nuclear bomb", and the same with "weapon". Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 15:47:18 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:47:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050214234719.72760.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jeff G." wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carla Hunt" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:53 PM > Subject: RE: nuclear terminology > > > > > > > > > > > > would it be accurate to say that "nuclear weapons" are more a catagory > and > > "atomic weapons" are a type of weapon in that catagory? > > > > > > > Not really, the terminology is. . . inaccurate, but still used. They are > all > "nuclear weapons", atomic weapons is the term coined for fission > weapons. > The term "atomic weapons" may not be used by the learned among us, but > those > of us with more, um, hands on application often use the old, incorrect > terminology. Hands on? I haven't heard it at Los Alamos, where I used to work, but then I didn't talk that much with people who really had their hands on weapons. Can you say where you got your experience without killing us? > And Jerry, I wouldn't say you ambushed me, I thought you telegraphed > your > opening move quite plainly. That is why my opening sentence included "as > you > doubtless realize". Good--I didn't want to ambush anybody. I didn't take that as addressed to me specifically, since I hadn't said anything on the topic yet, but it did apply to me. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 15:52:25 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:52:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050214235225.7739.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > > > Hm. I'd expect we have forests that are bigger than Sweden, but > > > maybe only in Alaska. Or has deforestation gone farther than I > > > think? > > > > Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States > today > > than there was for most of the nineteenth century. > > > > pe > > something about not using wood so much any more I wonder whether we really use less wood now. We burn less (though I live in a neighborhood where a lot of people heat their homes with wood), but we use plenty for paper. > I thought this had something to do with the rise of tree farms. > If I'm right, these would be monoculture "forests" of identical-age > trees, so not quite what Larpers might have in mind. I suspect you're right. Nothing wrong with even-age stands of one species, like the lodgepole pines in Wyoming that all germinated as a result of the same fire (one fire per forest, not one fire per Wyoming). I'm told tree farms are pretty unromantic, though. And lodgepole pines grow "thick as hairs on a dog's back", so there might be some inconveniences for LARPers. Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From books at bofh.com Mon Feb 14 16:36:10 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:36:10 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <20050214211644.58282.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000601c510af$3523ff80$667ba8c0@Dad133> <20050214211644.58282.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215003610.GA13442@bofh.com> On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:16:44PM -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote: > It's probably too late for "quantum leap" and "exponential", but > I think the "atomic" line can be held. Ok, so is a "quantum leap" a small amount (because quantum deals with quantum mechanics) or a large amount, because "spooky things at a distance" can happen? As near as I can tell, it was a TV show, any other use is ambiguous. As for exponential, how is it wrong? Something 10x greater than the part before it is the standard, although I suppose it can be less if you operate in something other than base 10. (As a computer guy I deal in base 2 quite frequently). I suppose "increasing logrithmically" doesn't sound as sex. :) Those seem pretty clear to me. How am I wrong? > I got somebody mad at me on another list by arguing about physics > without revealing that I have a Ph.D. in it and teach it (the guy > felt ambushed), so consider it revealed. Sucker. Now I can ask questions and expect solid answers. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From jtrager at keyway.net Mon Feb 14 17:18:53 2005 From: jtrager at keyway.net (jtrager at keyway.net) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:18:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <20050215003610.GA13442@bofh.com> References: <000601c510af$3523ff80$667ba8c0@Dad133> <20050214211644.58282.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> <20050215003610.GA13442@bofh.com> Message-ID: <53186.63.67.56.125.1108430333.squirrel@63.67.56.125> > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:16:44PM -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote: > Ok, so is a "quantum leap" a small amount (because quantum deals > with quantum mechanics) or a large amount, because "spooky things > at a distance" can happen? As near as I can tell, it was a > TV show, any other use is ambiguous. "Quantum leap" is unambiguous. The meaning of the phrase stems from the fact that quantum mechanics state that energy levels are quantized -- there is no way to cause an item on that scale to change its energy by a fraction of a quantum level. The "leap" phrase comes from the concept that it is not possible to have an incremental change in the state of the system -- you either jump a whole energy level or nothing. The general use of the phrase, therefore, refers to a situation in which the state of whatever is being observed changes fairly radically in a relatively short time, rather than incrementally. > As for exponential, how is it wrong? Something 10x greater than > the part before it is the standard, although I suppose it can be > less if you operate in something other than base 10. (As a computer > guy I deal in base 2 quite frequently). I suppose "increasing > logrithmically" doesn't sound as sex. :) Besides, technically "increasing logarithmically" would mean increasing a very small amount for a large change in the quantity under observation. The whole point of logarithms is that they making dealing with exponential changes much easier to calculate. (i.e. multiplying 10 times e times e squared is a pain to calculate by hand, but adding ln10 plus 1 plus 2 is easy) Cheers, Trager From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Feb 14 17:36:26 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:36:26 -0500 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <20050214181136.88892.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214121753.034ba550@pop.east.cox.net> <20050214181136.88892.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214203553.034c7300@pop.east.cox.net> At 13:11 02/14/2005, S SHafer wrote: >How do we know that Kragar isn't Mario? Maybe he has been paid to kill >Vlad at some point in the future (he is known for refusing time-restraints). No one is Mario. Steve Brust has said this. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Feb 14 18:05:39 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:05:39 -0500 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <000501c512e8$fbbbaae0$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <000501c512e8$fbbbaae0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214210401.034cdcd0@pop.east.cox.net> At 18:00 02/14/2005, Howard Brazee wrote: >Carla Hunt wrote: > > would it be accurate to say that "nuclear weapons" are more a > > catagory and "atomic weapons" are a type of weapon in that catagory? > >I wouldn't say that. "Atomic weapons" is simply an older term for "nuclear >weapons". When that expression was in wide use, the weapon being referred >to was a fusion bomb. At about the time when the fission bomb >(thermonuclear bomb) came into being, the press started referring replacing >all references to "atomic" with regards to weapons and power plants with >"nuclear". Sure you didn't reverse the meanings of "fission" and "fusion"? The original "Atomic" bombs were fission bombs. The "Hydrogen" bomb is a fusion bomb. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Feb 14 18:21:54 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:21:54 -0600 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214203553.034c7300@pop.east.cox.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214121753.034ba550@pop.east.cox.net> <20050214181136.88892.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050214203553.034c7300@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050215022154.GB3174@infodancer.org> On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:36:26PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > At 13:11 02/14/2005, S SHafer wrote: > >How do we know that Kragar isn't Mario? Maybe he has been paid to kill > >Vlad at some point in the future (he is known for refusing > >time-restraints). > No one is Mario. Steve Brust has said this. Damn. I thought Nevyn kicked the bucket hundreds of thousands of years before Dragaerea existed. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From s1burns at ucsd.edu Mon Feb 14 20:34:24 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:34:24 -0800 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <20050215022154.GB3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20050215043429.FRNL25487.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:22 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: 1st in 2005! ;) > > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:36:26PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > wrote: > > At 13:11 02/14/2005, S SHafer wrote: > > >How do we know that Kragar isn't Mario? Maybe he has been paid to > > >kill Vlad at some point in the future (he is known for refusing > > >time-restraints). > > No one is Mario. Steve Brust has said this. > > Damn. I thought Nevyn kicked the bucket hundreds of > thousands of years before Dragaerea existed. > Nice Kerr reference. But do we know that Dragaera is supposed to fit into Earth's timestream in some way? Deverry is in an alternate universe but links up within a larger multiverse to real Earth; is Dragaera in the same universe or even the same multiverse as Earth? Maybe there is no Earth in any part of the multiverse associated with Steve's books. (Although here I think a reference in Teckla to some socialist books might undermine this objection). Shawn From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 21:38:42 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:38:42 -0700 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) References: <20050215043429.FRNL25487.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Burns" To: "'Matthew Hunter'" ; Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: RE: 1st in 2005! ;) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:22 PM > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: 1st in 2005! ;) > > > > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 08:36:26PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > > wrote: > > > At 13:11 02/14/2005, S SHafer wrote: > > > >How do we know that Kragar isn't Mario? Maybe he has been paid to > > > >kill Vlad at some point in the future (he is known for refusing > > > >time-restraints). > > > No one is Mario. Steve Brust has said this. > > > > Damn. I thought Nevyn kicked the bucket hundreds of > > thousands of years before Dragaerea existed. > > > > Nice Kerr reference. But do we know that Dragaera is supposed to fit into > Earth's timestream in some way? Deverry is in an alternate universe but > links up within a larger multiverse to real Earth; is Dragaera in the same > universe or even the same multiverse as Earth? Maybe there is no Earth in > any part of the multiverse associated with Steve's books. (Although here I > think a reference in Teckla to some socialist books might undermine this > objection). > > Shawn > > Wasn't Devra spotted on Earth? Once in the Gypsy, and again in The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars? Jeff G. From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 04:53:26 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:53:26 -0700 Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <20050214234302.70732.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c5135d$5820d480$667ba8c0@Dad133> -----Original Message----- Right (except that you got fission and fusion backwards). Another source of confusion that I forgot about, though, is "A-bomb" (fission) and "H-bomb" (fusion). Brain fart. Fuse means two small things turn into one large thing. Fissures are separations. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 04:56:23 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:56:23 -0700 Subject: FW: nuclear terminology Message-ID: <000101c5135d$c19486f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> -----Original Message----- From: Peter H. Granzeau [mailto:pgranzeau at cox.net] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:06 PM To: Howard Brazee; Dragaera (E-mail) Subject: RE: nuclear terminology Sure you didn't reverse the meanings of "fission" and "fusion"? The original "Atomic" bombs were fission bombs. The "Hydrogen" bomb is a fusion bomb. Yep. My bad. To fuse, is to combine two items. Fissures separate one item. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From oliver at astro.ufl.edu Tue Feb 15 05:08:21 2005 From: oliver at astro.ufl.edu (John Oliver) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:08:21 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude Message-ID: <4211F445.8010600@astro.ufl.edu> When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time based on the master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, then local time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. Thus a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh hour of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more western location might still be in darkness. My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" -- John Oliver Associate Professor Associate Chair Department of Astronomy University of Florida Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 06:11:51 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:11:51 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude References: <4211F445.8010600@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Oliver" To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM Subject: Time and longitude > When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time based on the > master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, then local > time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. Thus > a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh hour > of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more western location might > still be in darkness. > My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" > -- > John Oliver > Associate Professor > Associate Chair > Department of Astronomy > University of Florida > Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu > see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ > Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are aware of the difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula developed to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows the location of every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates the local time for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, but neither is it contradicted. Jeff G. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Feb 15 06:15:21 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:15:21 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: References: <4211F445.8010600@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Oliver" > To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM > Subject: Time and longitude > > >> When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time based on the >> master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, then local >> time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. >> Thus >> a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh >> hour >> of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more western location might >> still be in darkness. >> My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" >> -- >> John Oliver >> Associate Professor >> Associate Chair >> Department of Astronomy >> University of Florida >> Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu >> see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ >> > > Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are aware of the > difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula > developed > to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows the location > of > every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates the local > time > for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, but neither > is it > contradicted. > > Jeff G. > We don't really know much about the size of the planet or the continent Drageara is on, except for something like its "The same general shape as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 15 07:53:21 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:53:21 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude Message-ID: <32E8B0BC.0E6A052D.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/15/2005 9:15:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chris Turkel writes: "The same general shape >as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about >half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. > Where did you learn this? -C > From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Feb 15 08:02:36 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:02:36 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <32E8B0BC.0E6A052D.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <32E8B0BC.0E6A052D.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2005, at 10:53 AM, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/15/2005 9:15:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chris > Turkel writes: > "The same general shape >> as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about >> half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. >> > Where did you learn this? > -C >> From the quite unofficial Choose Your Own Path book, Dzurlord, by Steve. Its in the intro. From oliver at astro.ufl.edu Tue Feb 15 08:12:35 2005 From: oliver at astro.ufl.edu (John Oliver) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:12:35 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: References: <4211F445.8010600@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <42121F73.6090500@astro.ufl.edu> Jeff G. wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Oliver" > To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM > Subject: Time and longitude > > > >>When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time based on the >>master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, then local >>time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. Thus >>a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh hour >>of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more western location might >>still be in darkness. >>My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" >>-- >>John Oliver >>Associate Professor >>Associate Chair >>Department of Astronomy >>University of Florida >>Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu >>see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ >> > > > Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are aware of the > difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula developed > to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows the location of > every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates the local time > for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, but neither is it > contradicted. > > Jeff G. It would not take long for people to notice this once the ability to link mentally appears. Speaker A: "Well it's about 10 of the morning so I will 'port in at about noon" Speaker B: "What do you mean 10 of the morning, it is already 2 past noon" One way or another time and longitude would become apparent unless the planet is so much larger than the continent that the variation is small. Orca would have quickly learned to navigate using the difference between local and orb time for longitude and the position (crude) of the furnace for latitude (assing the furnace is detectable). -- John Oliver Associate Professor Associate Chair Department of Astronomy University of Florida Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ From abcmm at att.net Tue Feb 15 08:29:15 2005 From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:29:15 +0000 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) Message-ID: <021520051629.12699.4212235B0006FB0E0000319B215876672003030C0D0E@att.net> 2 years ago I travelled to southern Colorado. While riding horses through some of the most pristine mountains and valleys I thought what a wonderful place to pretend you are on a quest! Cell Phones did not work there. No paved roads within site of any of the peaks I rode over. I can't remember a single plane flying over. And, only about 3 hour drive from Albequerque New Mexico... I little slice of heaven called Rainbow Trout Ranch... If you ever want to get away I strongly recommend the place.... B -------------- Original message from "Martin Wohlert" : -------------- > Gomi no Sensei wrote: > >To: dragaera at dragaera.info > >Subject: RE: larp (was: 1st in 2005) > >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:13:36 -0800 (PST) > > > >On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > > > Hm. I'd expect we have forests that are bigger than Sweden, but > > > maybe only in Alaska. Or has deforestation gone farther than I > > > think? > > > >Not in the least. There is greater forested area in the United States today > >than there was for most of the nineteenth century. > > > >pe > >something about not using wood so much any more > > Well, actually I don't claim that we have bigger forests per se. > But, when arranging a LARP you want the forest in question to: > A) Be isolated enough so the experience isn't bothered by motorways and > aeroplanes all the time, but actually feels like Fantasyland, and > B) That it's close enough to a human habitation, so you can actually get > there in the first place. > > Fairly contradictory. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Feb 15 08:30:01 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:01 -0800 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:15 AM > To: > Subject: Re: Time and longitude > > > On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Oliver" > > To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM > > Subject: Time and longitude > > > > > >> When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time > based on the > >> master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, > then local > >> time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. > >> Thus > >> a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh > >> hour of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more > western location > >> might still be in darkness. > >> My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" > >> -- > >> John Oliver > >> Associate Professor > >> Associate Chair > >> Department of Astronomy > >> University of Florida > >> Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at > >> http://concam.net/rh/ > >> > > > > Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are > aware of the > > difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula > > developed > > to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows > the location > > of > > every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates > the local > > time > > for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, > but neither > > is it > > contradicted. > > > > Jeff G. > > > > > We don't really know much about the size of the planet or the > continent > Drageara is on, except for something like its "The same general shape > as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about > half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. They would only need to have figured out timezones if the difference in the amount of light they experience at the extreme Eastern end of the Empire is drastically different from the amount of light they experience at that same time at the extreme western end. Timezones are necessary (read: "convenient") when the light we get is from the sun, so that at different times there is light vs. no light at the extremes; but what about with the Overcast? Maybe it diffuses the light of the sun eough that there is little noticeable difference at the same time in the east and west. So the farmer in the west gets up at 6 on the Imperial clock and has only slightly less light to work with than the farmer in the east who gets up at that same time. Shawn From marklandin at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 09:24:34 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:24:34 -0600 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> References: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:01 -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:15 AM > > To: > > Subject: Re: Time and longitude > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "John Oliver" > > > To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM > > > Subject: Time and longitude > > > > > > > > >> When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time > > based on the > > >> master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, > > then local > > >> time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. > > >> Thus > > >> a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh > > >> hour of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more > > western location > > >> might still be in darkness. > > >> My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" > > >> -- > > >> John Oliver > > >> Associate Professor > > >> Associate Chair > > >> Department of Astronomy > > >> University of Florida > > >> Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at > > >> http://concam.net/rh/ > > >> > > > > > > Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are > > aware of the > > > difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula > > > developed > > > to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows > > the location > > > of > > > every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates > > the local > > > time > > > for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, > > but neither > > > is it > > > contradicted. > > > > > > Jeff G. > > > > > > > > > We don't really know much about the size of the planet or the > > continent > > Drageara is on, except for something like its "The same general shape > > as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about > > half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. > > Timezones are necessary (read: > "convenient") when the light we get is from the sun, so that at different > times there is light vs. no light at the extremes; but what about with the > Overcast? Maybe it diffuses the light of the sun eough that there is little > noticeable difference at the same time in the east and west. So the farmer > in the west gets up at 6 on the Imperial clock and has only slightly less > light to work with than the farmer in the east who gets up at that same > time. Farmers are a bad example. They get up when it's light enough to work and quit when they can't see anymore, whether's that's 6:00 AM or 4:00 AM or 13:00 midnight. The other serious need for accurate timekeeping is naval navigation. Are Dragaerans serious sea-folk? From oliver at astro.ufl.edu Tue Feb 15 09:27:27 2005 From: oliver at astro.ufl.edu (John Oliver) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:27:27 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <421230FF.6020505@astro.ufl.edu> Shawn Burns wrote: > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] >>Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:15 AM >>To: >>Subject: Re: Time and longitude >> >> >>On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "John Oliver" >>>To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM >>>Subject: Time and longitude >>> >>> >>> >>>>When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time >> >>based on the >> >>>>master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, >> >>then local >> >>>>time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. >>>>Thus >>>>a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh >>>>hour of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more >> >>western location >> >>>>might still be in darkness. >>>>My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" >>>>-- >>>>John Oliver >>>>Associate Professor >>>>Associate Chair >>>>Department of Astronomy >>>>University of Florida >>>>Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at >>>>http://concam.net/rh/ >>>> >>> >>>Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are >> >>aware of the >> >>>difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula >>>developed >>>to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows >> >>the location >> >>>of >>>every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates >> >>the local >> >>>time >>>for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, >> >>but neither >> >>>is it >>>contradicted. >>> >>>Jeff G. >>> >> >> >>We don't really know much about the size of the planet or the >>continent >>Drageara is on, except for something like its "The same general shape >>as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about >>half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. > > > They would only need to have figured out timezones if the difference in the > amount of light they experience at the extreme Eastern end of the Empire is > drastically different from the amount of light they experience at that same > time at the extreme western end. Timezones are necessary (read: > "convenient") when the light we get is from the sun, so that at different > times there is light vs. no light at the extremes; but what about with the > Overcast? Maybe it diffuses the light of the sun eough that there is little > noticeable difference at the same time in the east and west. So the farmer > in the west gets up at 6 on the Imperial clock and has only slightly less > light to work with than the farmer in the east who gets up at that same > time. > > Shawn > > This all depends on the relative size of the Empire and the planet. AFAIK we do not know that. Still, my experience (as an astronomer) is that the rate and time at which dusk and dawn occur (as represented by nautical twilight) are not appreciably effected by overcast skies. If the empire is 4x Europe and Dragaera is the size of Earth the variation should have been noted. -- John Oliver Associate Professor Associate Chair Department of Astronomy University of Florida Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ From oliver at astro.ufl.edu Tue Feb 15 09:29:02 2005 From: oliver at astro.ufl.edu (John Oliver) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:29:02 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4212315E.8030104@astro.ufl.edu> Mark Landin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:01 -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:15 AM >>>To: >>>Subject: Re: Time and longitude >>> >>> >>>On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: >>> >>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "John Oliver" >>>>To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" >>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:08 AM >>>>Subject: Time and longitude >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time >>> >>>based on the >>> >>>>>master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, >>> >>>then local >>> >>>>>time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. >>>>>Thus >>>>>a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh >>>>>hour of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more >>> >>>western location >>> >>>>>might still be in darkness. >>>>>My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" >>>>>-- >>>>>John Oliver >>>>>Associate Professor >>>>>Associate Chair >>>>>Department of Astronomy >>>>>University of Florida >>>>>Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at >>>>>http://concam.net/rh/ >>>>> >>>> >>>>Well, it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are >>> >>>aware of the >>> >>>>difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula >>>>developed >>>>to ascertain the time in different locals. The Orb knows >>> >>>the location >>> >>>>of >>>>every person linked to it. I would guess that it translates >>> >>>the local >>> >>>>time >>>>for anyone that asks. So, no, it is not stated directly, >>> >>>but neither >>> >>>>is it >>>>contradicted. >>>> >>>>Jeff G. >>>> >>> >>> >>>We don't really know much about the size of the planet or the >>>continent >>>Drageara is on, except for something like its "The same general shape >>>as Europe but four times larger, of which the Empire covers about >>>half". That's big so they must have timezones figured out by now. >> >>Timezones are necessary (read: >>"convenient") when the light we get is from the sun, so that at different >>times there is light vs. no light at the extremes; but what about with the >>Overcast? Maybe it diffuses the light of the sun eough that there is little >>noticeable difference at the same time in the east and west. So the farmer >>in the west gets up at 6 on the Imperial clock and has only slightly less >>light to work with than the farmer in the east who gets up at that same >>time. > > > Farmers are a bad example. They get up when it's light enough to work > and quit when they can't see anymore, whether's that's 6:00 AM or 4:00 > AM or 13:00 midnight. > > The other serious need for accurate timekeeping is naval navigation. > Are Dragaerans serious sea-folk? The House of Orca must be I would think. -- John Oliver Associate Professor Associate Chair Department of Astronomy University of Florida Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ From rone at ennui.org Tue Feb 15 09:33:08 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:33:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050214211034.52342.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050215173308.6A44726D6A@boredom.ennui.org> Jerry Friedman writes: You could also have corrected my use of "H" for the Spanish "J". Well, English doesn't have the "j" sound. rone -- Remember Remember It's tilted From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Feb 15 09:58:42 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <4212315E.8030104@astro.ufl.edu> References: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> <4212315E.8030104@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: These issues are addressed in particular in _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_. The question of navigation was addressed in the list at the thread including http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9502 - though I seem to be having trouble with the archive, uhh, navigation links. Also more recently, I believe. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Feb 15 10:00:27 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:00:27 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: References: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> <4212315E.8030104@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <60067b4af8fb04f4d5390c0176de3462@adelphia.net> On Feb 15, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > These issues are addressed in particular in _The Enchantress of Dzur > Mountain_. > > The question of navigation was addressed in the list at the thread > including http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9502 - > though I seem to be having trouble with the archive, uhh, navigation > links. Also more recently, I believe. You know, if Steve would let us see the map of Dragaera, this would easier :) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Feb 15 10:05:04 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:05:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) Message-ID: <200502151805.j1FI54am027323@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Jeff Gibbons wrote: > Wasn't Devra spotted on Earth? Once in the Gypsy, and again in The Sun, the > Moon, and the Stars? I can't recall mention of Devera in _Gypsy_; her spot (ahem) in _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ was a small one in a corner of the painting (IIRC). Not sure if that really counts as a sighting. :) Cheers, Chris From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 10:08:36 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:08:36 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ae27b5893c0d573f75f976219217faa@adelphia.net> <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> <16ee270e0502150924208e5bf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:24:34 -0600, Mark Landin wrote: > Farmers are a bad example. They get up when it's light enough to work > and quit when they can't see anymore, whether's that's 6:00 AM or 4:00 > AM or 13:00 midnight. > The other serious need for accurate timekeeping is naval navigation. > Are Dragaerans serious sea-folk? Any long distance coordination requires accurate timekeeping. And with teleportation, long distance coordination is a common - at least for the rich and powerful. Whether this is for a business meeting, a party, or an assassination, they need to know the time. Zulu time (Grenwich Mean Time) is used for that on Earth. But we don't have instantaneous travel. China uses the same thing, making teleconferences easy within its borders. Farmers don't care whether daylight starts at 6:00 in one part of the empire and at 1:00 in the other part. They get used to whatever - it's the sun that rules their lives. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 10:37:39 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:37:39 -0700 Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) References: <200502151805.j1FI54am027323@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: Re: 1st in 2005! ;) > Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > Wasn't Devra spotted on Earth? Once in the Gypsy, and again in The Sun, the > > Moon, and the Stars? > > I can't recall mention of Devera in _Gypsy_; her spot (ahem) > in _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ was a small one in a > corner of the painting (IIRC). Not sure if that really > counts as a sighting. :) > > Cheers, > Chris > > I seem to recall when they are falling through worlds at the end of the novel the cop (Durant?) sees her. I'll check tonight when I get home. Jeff From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 10:56:10 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:56:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: <021520051629.12699.4212235B0006FB0E0000319B215876672003030C0D0E@att.net> Message-ID: <20050215185611.44999.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> --- abcmm at att.net wrote: > 2 years ago I travelled to southern Colorado. While riding horses > through some of the most pristine mountains and valleys I thought what a > wonderful place to pretend you are on a quest! > > Cell Phones did not work there. No paved roads within site of any of > the peaks I rode over. I can't remember a single plane flying over. > And, only about 3 hour drive from Albequerque New Mexico... > > I little slice of heaven called Rainbow Trout Ranch... If you ever want > to get away I strongly recommend the place.... No! Northern New Mexico and southern Colorado are surprisingly ugly, considering how mountainous they look on the map. The biggest problem is not the person-eating grizzly bears but the giant ticks on them, which are just as happy with humans as with bears, although since they're used to bigger hosts they tend to take more of our blood than they should. (See _The Scar_, by China Mieville.) There's also a three-way race war among Anglos, Hispanics, and Indians, though not much above the rocket-propelled-grenade level unless you go to the dangerous areas. So really, you should take your vacations in Florida. Trust me; I live in Espanola, NM. Did I mention the curse on disturbing Anasazi burial sites, which are everywhere? Quite gruesome. Jerry Friedman ;-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 10:59:47 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:59:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <4211F445.8010600@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <20050215185947.98627.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Oliver wrote: > When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time based on the > master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical planet, > then local > time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with longitude around the planet. Morrolan noticed a difference in the time of day when he teleported to the town with Ordwynaac's (sp?) statue (and he didn't notice any difference in, say, gravity). I'm assuming it is spherical. > Thus > a more eastern location might already be in daytime at the seventh hour > of the morning (by the Orb), while a much more western location might > still be in darkness. > My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" I don't think so. As people are more or less implying, though, the Orb could tell you "Coordinated Imperial Time" and let citizens correct for their own longitudes. Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 11:04:18 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:04:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050215190418.54439.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shawn Burns" > To: "'Matthew Hunter'" ; ... > > Nice Kerr reference. But do we know that Dragaera is supposed to fit > into > > Earth's timestream in some way? Deverry is in an alternate universe > but > > links up within a larger multiverse to real Earth; is Dragaera in the > same > > universe or even the same multiverse as Earth? Maybe there is no Earth > in > > any part of the multiverse associated with Steve's books. (Although > here I > > think a reference in Teckla to some socialist books might undermine > this > > objection). Also the elephant that Vlad sees a picture of...in Verra's halls, in _Phoenix_? Anyway, some fool manages to record Vlad's stories and publish them here, so I think it's the same universe or multiverse. > Wasn't Devra spotted on Earth? Once in the Gypsy, and again in The Sun, > the > Moon, and the Stars? I know Devera showed up at a funeral in _Freedom and Necessity_. Of course, that may not be *exactly* our time-line. -- Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 11:10:31 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:10:31 -0600 Subject: 2004 Nebula Award finalists Message-ID: http://www.sfwa.org/news/nebula_ballot04.htm *************************************************** 2004 SFWA Nebula Awards? Final Ballot *************************************************** Brook West, Nebula Award Report editor, announced the Final Ballot for the Nebula Awards? for 2004. The Nebula Awards? are voted on, and presented by, active members of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, Inc. Founded as the Science Fiction Writers of America in 1965 by Damon Knight, the organization began with a charter membership of 78 writers; it now has over 1,400 members, among them most of the leading writers of science fiction and fantasy. The Awards will be announced at the 2004 Nebula Awards? Banquet to be held at the Allegro Hotel in the heart of Chicago's Loop Theater District on Saturday, April 30, 2004. 2004 Final Nebula Ballot Novels -- Paladin of Souls -- Lois McMaster Bujold (Eos, Oct03) Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom -- Cory Doctorow (Tor, Feb03) Omega -- Jack McDevitt (Ace, Nov03) Cloud Atlas : A Novel -- David Mitchell (Sceptre, Jan 2004) Perfect Circle -- Sean Stewart (Small Beer Press, Jun04) The Knight -- Gene Wolfe (Tor, Jan04) Novellas -- Walk in Silence -- Catherine Asaro (Analog, Apr03) The Tangled Strings of the Marionettes -- Adam-Troy Castro (F&SF, Jul03) The Cookie Monster -- Vernor Vinge (Analog, Oct03) The Green Leopard Plague -- Walter Jon Williams (Asimov's, Oct/Nov 2003) Just Like the Ones We Used to Know -- Connie Willis (Asimov's, Dec03) Novelettes -- Zora and the Zombie -- Andy Duncan (SCI FICTION, 2/4/04) Basement Magic -- Ellen Klages (F&SF, May03) The Voluntary State -- Christopher Rowe (SCI FICTION, May04) Dry Bones -- William Sanders (Asimov's, May03) The Gladiator's War: A Dialogue -- Lois Tilton (Asimov's, Jun04) Short Stories -- Coming to Terms -- Eileen Gunn (Stable Strategies and Others, Tachyon Publications, Sep 2004) The Strange Redemption of Sister Mary Anne -- Mike Moscoe (Analog, Nov04) Travels With my Cats -- Mike Resnick (Asimov's, Feb04) Embracing-The-New -- Benjamin Rosenbaum (Asimov's, Jan04) In the Late December -- Greg van Eekhout (Strange Horizons, 12/22/03) Aloha -- Ken Wharton (Analog, Jun03) Scripts -- The Incredibles -- Brad Bird (Pixar, Nov04) The Butterfly Effect -- J. Mackye Gruber and Eric Bress (New Line Cinema, Jan 2004) Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind -- Charlie Kaufman & Michel Gondry (Anonymus Content/Focus Features, First aired 3/18/04) The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King -- Fran Walsh & Philippa Boyens & Peter Jackson (New Line Cinema, First aired 17 Dec 03. Based on the novel by J. R. R. Tolkien) Posted February 15, 2005 I feel really out of it. I've only read Gene Wolfe's _The Knight_ out of all of that (but liked it very well). -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 12:45:36 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:45:36 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:01 -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > They would only need to have figured out timezones if the difference in > the > amount of light they experience at the extreme Eastern end of the Empire > is > drastically different from the amount of light they experience at that > same > time at the extreme western end. Timezones are necessary (read: > "convenient") when the light we get is from the sun, so that at different > times there is light vs. no light at the extremes; but what about with > the Overcast? I knew someone who hated the idea of going on Zulu time - how could someone live if dawn hit at 9:00 PM? His position never made sense to me. But then, Daylight Savings Time never made sense to me, especially since it was created before TV. In a society without TV shows, you let the sun decide what you do - when the sun matters. Clocks are used to synchronize your activities with others. If the others are on the other side of the world, then your clocks should say the same thing. > Maybe it diffuses the light of the sun eough that there is little > noticeable difference at the same time in the east and west. So the > farmer > in the west gets up at 6 on the Imperial clock and has only slightly less > light to work with than the farmer in the east who gets up at that same > time. But the farmer doesn't care what time the clock says, unless he's listening to the 9:40 farm report on the radio. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 12:48:48 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:48:48 -0700 Subject: larp (was: 1st in 2005) In-Reply-To: <20050215185611.44999.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050215185611.44999.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:56:10 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman wrote: >> Cell Phones did not work there. No paved roads within site of any of >> the peaks I rode over. I can't remember a single plane flying over. >> And, only about 3 hour drive from Albequerque New Mexico... >> >> I little slice of heaven called Rainbow Trout Ranch... If you ever want >> to get away I strongly recommend the place.... > No! Northern New Mexico and southern Colorado are surprisingly > ugly, considering how mountainous they look on the map. The biggest > problem is not the person-eating grizzly bears but the giant ticks > on them, which are just as happy with humans as with bears, although > since they're used to bigger hosts they tend to take more of our > blood than they should. (See _The Scar_, by China Mieville.) > There's also a three-way race war among Anglos, Hispanics, and > Indians, though not much above the rocket-propelled-grenade level > unless you go to the dangerous areas. So really, you should take > your vacations in Florida. Trust me; I live in Espanola, NM. > Did I mention the curse on disturbing Anasazi burial sites, which > are everywhere? Quite gruesome. But a majority of my vacations are to that area... Oh, I get it. Terrible, terrible place to live - nobody should ever want to go there. Nor hear. You will be much happier wherever you are now. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From marklandin at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 12:57:38 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:57:38 -0600 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: References: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <16ee270e050215125761feb226@mail.gmail.com> > I knew someone who hated the idea of going on Zulu time - how could > someone live if dawn hit at 9:00 PM? His position never made sense to > me. But then, Daylight Savings Time never made sense to me, especially > since it was created before TV. DST was instituted to maximize the use of natural daylight during "daytime" hours. It's mainly for industrialized nations (even those without television!). If you maximize daylight hours, you should be able to reduce your use of artificial lighting during the "waking day", meaning a reduction in the amount of fuel oil consumed to generate electricity for lights and appliances. The US adopted it during WW1, although the UK had done so some years before. More information than you need here: http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 15 13:02:01 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:02:01 -0500 Subject: sticky situation Message-ID: <54079F78.10629339.00184D6D@aol.com> Hello everyone. I want to let you all know that I will be putting people's sticker orders back. If have a check in the mail (I will let you know if I got it) or plan on mailing it before this weekend (e-mail me either way), I will hold on to your order. There are a few people who are happy to buy your stickers if you do not get back to me. Thank you again to all who helped support me with this. -Crystal From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 13:34:30 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:34:30 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <16ee270e050215125761feb226@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> <16ee270e050215125761feb226@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:57:38 -0600, Mark Landin wrote: >> I knew someone who hated the idea of going on Zulu time - how could >> someone live if dawn hit at 9:00 PM? His position never made sense to >> me. But then, Daylight Savings Time never made sense to me, especially >> since it was created before TV. > > DST was instituted to maximize the use of natural daylight during > "daytime" hours. It's mainly for industrialized nations (even those > without television!). If you maximize daylight hours, you should be > able to reduce your use of artificial lighting during the "waking > day", meaning a reduction in the amount of fuel oil consumed to > generate electricity for lights and appliances. The US adopted it > during WW1, although the UK had done so some years before. > > More information than you need here: > http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html My big objection is quoted from that site: Another complaint is sometimes put forth by people who wake at dawn, or whose schedules are otherwise tied to sunrise, such as farmers. Farmers often dislike the clocks changing mid year. Canadian poultry producer Marty Notenbomer notes, "The chickens do not adapt to the changed clock until several weeks have gone by so the first week of April and the last week of October are very frustrating for us." =================== Daylight savings time does not save any daytime hours. I just start to see the sun when I arrive at work, and they change the clock so I am driving to work in the dark again. Nothing was saved. But it is stupid that I'm stuck to a clock in the first place. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From bryann at bryann.net Tue Feb 15 17:22:34 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:22:34 -0600 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <4211F445.8010600@astro.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <200502160122.j1G1MT1r010670@bryann.net> > When the Orb has been active, citizens "know" the time based > on the master Imperial Clock. If Dragaera is a spherical > planet, then local time (i.e. dawn, dusk) will vary with > longitude around the planet. Thus a more eastern location > might already be in daytime at the seventh hour of the > morning (by the Orb), while a much more western location > might still be in darkness. > My question is: "Does this show up in the books?" Some of this is has already been said in reply to this email, but here's some relevant text: The Intro to Dzurlord - "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the shape of Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the moment) more than half of it." Book of Taltos pg 189 - "I'm going to be leaving for a while ... Across the great salt sea. Out past the horizon ..." Book of Taltos pg 194 - "There are stories of whole lands beyond the sea. Or beneath them ... Beyond the Malestrom ... we have charts that show only the Grey Rocks on one side, and the Spindrift Lands on the other." Book of Athyra pg 285/286 - "[Northport is] so far north of the equator [and] the Kanefthali Mountains start only a few hundred miles away" [Vlad is aware of the equator] Sethra Lavode pg 15 - "[Zerika] wished to send an envoy to the Queen of Landsight, she did not, at this time, have access to a ship that was able to make this journey" [transoceanic sailing?] Sethra Lavode pg 303-305 - "Morrolan was more than a little startled to discover, upon returning to Castle Black, that it was only a little past the hour of noon ... He was still attempting to calculate an explanation for the odd behaviour of the Furnace, which he could tell (being above the Enclouding) was far higher in the sky than it ought to be ... He was greeted by Lady Teldra" M - "how can it already be late afternoon in Blackchapel, and just barely noon here?" T - "Well, my lord, you must remember that Blackchapel is east of us--considerably east of us. You cannot have forgotten how many leagues west we journeyed, in addition to no few leagues south." M - "And so, if it is east--" T - "Then dawn occurs there before it occurs here." ... T - "My lord, this fact is well known among the Orca--that is, those Orca who sail. When they sail eastward, the day starts and ends noticeably sooner; sailing west, when wind and currents permit, why, the day becomes longer after starting later." M - "What accounts for such a thing?" T - "There are many theories, my lord, that account for it, but, so far as I know, none have been proven." ... M - "Are there calculations that explain how a certain number of leagues of easting will result in day beginning so much earlier?" T - "Well, yes, my lord, but traveling north and south also has some effect." ... T - "I have heard ... That among Orca who take long voyages to the south, such as trading expeditions to Landsight, when one travels far enough south, it is just as if one were traveling north." [Landsight is in the southern hemisphere] ... T - "I will find the tables and charts that explain it, my lord, and I will have them put in the library so that you may look at them at your leisure." Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Tue Feb 15 17:31:30 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:31:30 -0600 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <60067b4af8fb04f4d5390c0176de3462@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200502160131.j1G1VP1r010731@bryann.net> > You know, if Steve would let us see the map of Dragaera, this > would easier :) I have attempted to create a map of Dragaera based on the novels. The first version (now nearly a year old) can be found at http://bryann.net/brust.html. When I started this project, I asked Steve if he had any maps, or any plans on releasing any maps, and at that time, he did not. I'm still working on the next version... I had hoped Sethra Lavode would clear a few things up, but of course it's Steve, so it complicated matters more than it simplified them. :) Bryan From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 18:01:46 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:01:46 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <200502160122.j1G1MT1r010670@bryann.net> Message-ID: <000201c513cb$78fad340$667ba8c0@Dad133> Bryan Newell wrote: > The Intro to Dzurlord - > "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the shape of > Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the > moment) more than half of it." Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million square miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in one time zone. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 18:05:18 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:05:18 +0100 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <000201c513cb$78fad340$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: >"Howard Brazee" wrote: >To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" >Subject: RE: Time and longitude >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:01:46 -0700 > >Bryan Newell wrote: > > > The Intro to Dzurlord - > > "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the shape of > > Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the > > moment) more than half of it." > >Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million square >miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in one time zone. According to my map China is in about 3 time zones (tiny parts touching two more). That they have a standardized time for the whole country is a very different matter. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 18:37:28 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:37:28 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude References: <20050215163007.DJBV18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> <16ee270e050215125761feb226@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: Re: Time and longitude > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:57:38 -0600, Mark Landin > wrote: > > >> I knew someone who hated the idea of going on Zulu time - how could > >> someone live if dawn hit at 9:00 PM? His position never made sense to > >> me. But then, Daylight Savings Time never made sense to me, especially > >> since it was created before TV. > > > > DST was instituted to maximize the use of natural daylight during > > "daytime" hours. It's mainly for industrialized nations (even those > > without television!). If you maximize daylight hours, you should be > > able to reduce your use of artificial lighting during the "waking > > day", meaning a reduction in the amount of fuel oil consumed to > > generate electricity for lights and appliances. The US adopted it > > during WW1, although the UK had done so some years before. > > > > More information than you need here: > > http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html > > My big objection is quoted from that site: > Another complaint is sometimes put forth by people who wake at dawn, or > whose schedules are otherwise tied to sunrise, such as farmers. Farmers > often dislike the clocks changing mid year. Canadian poultry producer > Marty Notenbomer notes, "The chickens do not adapt to the changed clock > until several weeks have gone by so the first week of April and the last > week of October are very frustrating for us." > > =================== > > Daylight savings time does not save any daytime hours. I just start to > see the sun when I arrive at work, and they change the clock so I am > driving to work in the dark again. Nothing was saved. > > But it is stupid that I'm stuck to a clock in the first place. > > > One of the great things about Arizona is that we have better things to do. No Daylight savings time here! Jeff From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 15 19:05:09 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:05:09 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c513d4$53c178f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Martin Wohlert wrote: >> Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million >> square miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in >> one time zone. > > According to my map China is in about 3 time zones (tiny parts > touching two more). > That they have a standardized time for the whole country is a very > different matter. No, that's exactly what a time zone is. We standardize clocks to act as though they were all at one longitude, even though they aren't. Some places have an hour's worth of standardization - China has a bigger area. No substantive difference in these concepts. There are places around the world where you move into a different time zone by moving north and south. From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 19:30:44 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <000301c4e068$22556960$6f01a8c0@jimsnotebook> Message-ID: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On the basis of the recommendations I have seen here I bought the book and read it. I found it rich , deep, and very rewarding, and I am now slowly rereading it, and looking forward to reading the sequels. The sexual masochism of the narrator is central to her character and to the plot, but it is not the point of the book. The author does not dwell in (gory, juicy, sickening... take your pick) detail on those scenes, any more than Gene Wolfe luxuriates in torture scenes in his Shadow of the Torturer tetralogy. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 15 21:29:15 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:29:15 -0800 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 19:30, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > The sexual masochism of the narrator is central to her character and to the > plot, but it is not the point of the book. The author does not dwell in (gory, > juicy, sickening... take your pick) detail on those scenes, any more than Gene > Wolfe luxuriates in torture scenes in his Shadow of the Torturer tetralogy. Well put. That was my recation as well. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Feb 15 22:22:22 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:22:22 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 09:29:15PM -0800, Steve Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 19:30, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > The sexual masochism of the narrator is central to her character and to the > > plot, but it is not the point of the book. The author does not dwell in (gory, > > juicy, sickening... take your pick) detail on those scenes, any more than Gene > > Wolfe luxuriates in torture scenes in his Shadow of the Torturer tetralogy. > Well put. That was my recation as well. Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her personality grow or change detectably. But everything else about the series ranks very, very highly. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From lydy at demesne.com Tue Feb 15 22:30:17 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:30:17 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: At 12:22 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat >underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the >reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the >character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her personality grow or change detectably. She was born that way. That's the way her nervous system works. "Kushiel's Dart" is the visible sign of her physical nature. It's not a personality trait, any more than tasting cilantro as soupy or being color blind is a personality trait. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Feb 15 22:36:28 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:36:28 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 12:30:17AM -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:22 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat > >underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the > >reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the > >character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her > >personality grow or change detectably. > She was born that way. That's the way her nervous system works. > "Kushiel's Dart" is the visible sign of her physical nature. It's > not a personality trait, any more than tasting cilantro as soupy or > being color blind is a personality trait. You were (presumably) born a woman. Would you say that your understanding of, reaction to, and behavior concerning your gender and sexuality are the same today as what you were born with? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From lydy at demesne.com Tue Feb 15 23:33:05 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:33:05 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: At 12:36 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 12:30:17AM -0600, Lydia Nickerson > wrote: >> At 12:22 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: >> >Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat >> >underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the >> >reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the >> >character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her >> >personality grow or change detectably. >> She was born that way. That's the way her nervous system works. >> "Kushiel's Dart" is the visible sign of her physical nature. It's >> not a personality trait, any more than tasting cilantro as soupy or >> being color blind is a personality trait. > >You were (presumably) born a woman. Would you say that your >understanding of, reaction to, and behavior concerning your >gender and sexuality are the same today as what you were born >with? You said that the reader isn't given the opportunity to understand why she reacts as she does, nor does that aspect of her character change. As I understood you, you were referring to her sexual masochism. Rephrased, you would be saying, if I'm following you correctly, that the readers aren't given an opportunity to understand why she is a woman, nor does her gender grow or change detectably. If I've misunderstood you point, would you please clarify? From worldserpent at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 00:03:33 2005 From: worldserpent at gmail.com (Charmian) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:03:33 -1000 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:33:05 -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:36 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 12:30:17AM -0600, Lydia Nickerson > > wrote: > >> At 12:22 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> >Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat > >> >underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the > >> >reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the > >> >character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her > >> >personality grow or change detectably. > >> She was born that way. That's the way her nervous system works. > >> "Kushiel's Dart" is the visible sign of her physical nature. It's > >> not a personality trait, any more than tasting cilantro as soupy or > >> being color blind is a personality trait. > > > >You were (presumably) born a woman. Would you say that your > >understanding of, reaction to, and behavior concerning your > >gender and sexuality are the same today as what you were born > >with? > > You said that the reader isn't given the opportunity to understand > why she reacts as she does, nor does that aspect of her character > change. As I understood you, you were referring to her sexual > masochism. Rephrased, you would be saying, if I'm following you > correctly, that the readers aren't given an opportunity to understand > why she is a woman, nor does her gender grow or change detectably. > > If I've misunderstood you point, would you please clarify? > I kind of agree with Lydia here. In Kushiel's Dart, the masochism is a physical condition, just like being a woman or having hair a certain color. Specifically, a "gift" from the gods. But this makes it in some ways less interesting, because IRL s/m is generally understood as a psychological trait/taste preference, rather than a biological thing. In other words, it seems something outside of Phedre, imposed on her. But the books don't say that all people into s/m in the land of Terre D'Ange and the surrounding countries are into it because it's a gift >from the gods, it seems to be portrayed sort of like it is in reality. So that messes with it a bit for me. Charmian From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Feb 16 00:58:16 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:58:16 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216085816.GI3174@infodancer.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 10:03:33PM -1000, Charmian wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:33:05 -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > At 12:36 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > >On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 12:30:17AM -0600, Lydia Nickerson > > > wrote: > > >> At 12:22 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > >> >Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat > > >> >underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the > > >> >reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the > > >> >character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her > > >> >personality grow or change detectably. > > >> She was born that way. That's the way her nervous system works. > > >> "Kushiel's Dart" is the visible sign of her physical nature. It's > > >> not a personality trait, any more than tasting cilantro as soupy or > > >> being color blind is a personality trait. > > >You were (presumably) born a woman. Would you say that your > > >understanding of, reaction to, and behavior concerning your > > >gender and sexuality are the same today as what you were born > > >with? > > You said that the reader isn't given the opportunity to understand > > why she reacts as she does, nor does that aspect of her character > > change. As I understood you, you were referring to her sexual > > masochism. Rephrased, you would be saying, if I'm following you > > correctly, that the readers aren't given an opportunity to understand > > why she is a woman, nor does her gender grow or change detectably. > > If I've misunderstood you point, would you please clarify? > I kind of agree with Lydia here. In Kushiel's Dart, the masochism is a > physical condition, just like being a woman or having hair a certain > color. Specifically, a "gift" from the gods. But this makes it in some > ways less interesting, because IRL s/m is generally understood as a > psychological trait/taste preference, rather than a biological thing. > In other words, it seems something outside of Phedre, imposed on her. > But the books don't say that all people into s/m in the land of Terre > D'Ange and the surrounding countries are into it because it's a gift > from the gods, it seems to be portrayed sort of like it is in reality. > So that messes with it a bit for me. In brief -- my complaint isn't that the masochism is a physical condition, but rather that it doesn't affect anything else about her. Take it away and nothing about her personality changes. She has a unique gift, but how does that gift affect her? How does she feel about it? Hate it? Love it? Vague hints. It's not a character trait, it's a plot device. Working within the analogy, a woman's sexuality at 13 is a lot different than it is at 16, 18, 25, 30... it's not static, and it's not just an on-off switch. Or, to use another analogy, we know that Vlad prefers a light, long blade with both a point and a cutting edge, and can fight with a dagger in his off-hand but usually uses spellbreaker or throws things. We know that Phedre prefers... what? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 16 08:13:38 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:13:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Conditioning (was: Kushiel's Dart) In-Reply-To: <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Charmian wrote: @> But this makes it in some ways less interesting, because IRL s/m is @> generally understood as a psychological trait/taste preference, rather @> than a biological thing. You know, I think most of the BDSM enthusiasts I know would disagree with you. Although, honestly, it's difficult or perhaps even impossible to disentagle genetic predisposition from behavioral conditioning anyway. Which is one of the things I wonder about in the context of Dragaeran reincarnation. We know that reincarnation and genetics react "oddly" with each other. What would happen if a soul was reincarnated into a body that had brain damage? Would the soul be intact afterwards, or would it inherit that damage? What determines the personality traits of a soul, if not the genetic traits of the body it was originally born into? Or do those only influence it? Are new souls periodically generated or are there a limited pool available? How many angels can dance on the tip of a Morganti knife, anyway? From gomi at pollywog.com Wed Feb 16 09:57:07 2005 From: gomi at pollywog.com (Paul Echeverri) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:57:07 -0800 Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) In-Reply-To: References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> John Klein wrote: >On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Charmian wrote: > >@> But this makes it in some ways less interesting, because IRL s/m is >@> generally understood as a psychological trait/taste preference, rather >@> than a biological thing. > >You know, I think most of the BDSM enthusiasts I know would disagree with >you. Although, honestly, it's difficult or perhaps even impossible to >disentagle genetic predisposition from behavioral conditioning anyway. > > With respect, most BDSM enthusiasts are not credible sources of information about the psychology of their enthusiasms. There is a significant membership overlap between Usenet sexual abuse recovery newsgroups and BDSM newsgroups. This overlap is either never discussed or its interest hotly denied, sometimes to the point of absurdity -- I recall at least one claim that the poster's abuse had *nothing to do* with their BDSM interests, while discussing a 'scene' that closely replicated the circumstances of the abuse as described in the recovery newsgroup. pe From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 10:00:46 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:00:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20050216180046.54438.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 09:29:15PM -0800, Steve Brust > wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 19:30, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > The sexual masochism of the narrator is central to her character and > to the > > > plot, but it is not the point of the book. The author does not dwell > in (gory, > > > juicy, sickening... take your pick) detail on those scenes, any more > than Gene > > > Wolfe luxuriates in torture scenes in his Shadow of the Torturer > tetralogy. Well, somewhat more. > > Well put. That was my recation as well. > > Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat > underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the > reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the > character reacts that way, This one's been dealt with. > nor does that aspect of her > personality grow or change detectably. Somewhat unfortunate, but they're notbooks where you look for depth of any kind. Another complaint I have about her sexuality is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. Many real sadists and masochists have varied fetishes and like to act out dramas (which one of Phedre's customers does once, if I remember correctly). Or so I'm told. > But everything else about > the series ranks very, very highly. Not to my taste. I enjoyed it, but I had to overlook the writing style with its endless malapropisms, as well as the Germanish, Jewishish, Irishish, etc. cultures. Unlike Mark, I couldn't mention it in the same sentence as _The Book of the New Sun_. (I know he wasn't comparing prose, philosophical depth, etc.) -- Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 10:02:42 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:02:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) In-Reply-To: <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> Message-ID: <20050216180243.95876.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul Echeverri wrote: > John Klein wrote: > > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Charmian wrote: > > > >@> But this makes it in some ways less interesting, because IRL s/m is > >@> generally understood as a psychological trait/taste preference, > rather > >@> than a biological thing. > > > >You know, I think most of the BDSM enthusiasts I know would disagree > with > >you. Although, honestly, it's difficult or perhaps even impossible to > >disentagle genetic predisposition from behavioral conditioning anyway. > > > > > With respect, most BDSM enthusiasts are not credible sources of > information about the psychology of their enthusiasms. There is a > significant membership overlap between Usenet sexual abuse recovery > newsgroups and BDSM newsgroups. This overlap is either never discussed > or its interest hotly denied, sometimes to the point of absurdity -- I > recall at least one claim that the poster's abuse had *nothing to do* > with their BDSM interests, while discussing a 'scene' that closely > replicated the circumstances of the abuse as described in the recovery > newsgroup. Also, speaking of sf, Samuel Delany said in one of his essays that the causes of S&M are pretty well understood, and many sadists and masochists had a clear idea of how they got that way. So somebody's wrong here (but it could be Delany). Jerry Friedman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 10:07:05 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050216180705.76643.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Martin Wohlert wrote: > > > >"Howard Brazee" wrote: > >To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" > >Subject: RE: Time and longitude > >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:01:46 -0700 > > > >Bryan Newell wrote: > > > > > The Intro to Dzurlord - > > > "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the shape of > > > Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the > > > moment) more than half of it." > > > >Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million > square > >miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in one time > zone. > > According to my map China is in about 3 time zones (tiny parts touching > two > more). > That they have a standardized time for the whole country is a very > different > matter. But it's the matter under discussion. China is proof that you can run a country the size of the Empire as one time zone. The Empire might work the same way. (Or, pace Bryan, it might be a lot longer north-south than east-west, or Dragaera might be a lot bigger than Earth, or the Empire might have more time zones than Russia.) Jerry Friedman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Feb 16 10:09:13 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:09:13 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <20050216180046.54438.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216180046.54438.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216180913.GA1193@infodancer.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 10:00:46AM -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote: > --- Matthew Hunter wrote: > > nor does that aspect of her > > personality grow or change detectably. > Somewhat unfortunate, but they're notbooks where you look for depth > of any kind. Another complaint I have about her sexuality > is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. That's part of what bothered me about it. I consider it a flaw because the other traits did in fact exhibit growth; think of her relationship with Joscelin. > > But everything else about > > the series ranks very, very highly. > Not to my taste. I enjoyed it, but I had to overlook the writing > style with its endless malapropisms, as well as the Germanish, > Jewishish, Irishish, etc. cultures. Unlike Mark, I couldn't mention > it in the same sentence as _The Book of the New Sun_. (I know he > wasn't comparing prose, philosophical depth, etc.) Actually, I liked the pseudocultures. I thought they worked well to add depth and interest to the story, as well as showing a fairly in-depth knowledge of the varied mythologies present in the area. Sort of like "How would this slice of history have looked to someone actually living in it, if some of the myths had a basis in reality?" -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 10:13:52 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <20050215003610.GA13442@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050216181352.79875.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jot Powers wrote: > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:16:44PM -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > It's probably too late for "quantum leap" and "exponential", but > > I think the "atomic" line can be held. > > Ok, so is a "quantum leap" a small amount (because quantum deals > with quantum mechanics) or a large amount, because "spooky things > at a distance" can happen? As near as I can tell, it was a > TV show, any other use is ambiguous. I agree that it's ambiguous in non-technical use. "Spooky action at a distance" is indeed a quantum phenomenon (though you don't have to interpret it as action at a distance), but it's not a quantum leap. > As for exponential, how is it wrong? Something 10x greater than > the part before it is the standard, although I suppose it can be > less if you operate in something other than base 10. (As a computer > guy I deal in base 2 quite frequently). I suppose "increasing > logrithmically" doesn't sound as sex. :) I don't think I've heard that meaning. What "increasing exponentially" means mathematically is increasing according to an exponential function, like compound interest. "Exponentially" more doesn't mean anything mathematically. > Those seem pretty clear to me. How am I wrong? > > > I got somebody mad at me on another list by arguing about physics > > without revealing that I have a Ph.D. in it and teach it (the guy > > felt ambushed), so consider it revealed. > > Sucker. Now I can ask questions and expect solid answers. :) I'm a lowly community-college instructor, and John Oliver is a tenured professor. Expect from him. Heh. (If I'm right in thinking that you recently posted here for the first time, John-- good timing, and welcome to the list!) Jerry Friedman, phudnik ("a nudnik with a Ph. D.") __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 10:13:52 2005 From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: nuclear terminology In-Reply-To: <20050215003610.GA13442@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050216181352.79875.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jot Powers wrote: > On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 01:16:44PM -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > It's probably too late for "quantum leap" and "exponential", but > > I think the "atomic" line can be held. > > Ok, so is a "quantum leap" a small amount (because quantum deals > with quantum mechanics) or a large amount, because "spooky things > at a distance" can happen? As near as I can tell, it was a > TV show, any other use is ambiguous. I agree that it's ambiguous in non-technical use. "Spooky action at a distance" is indeed a quantum phenomenon (though you don't have to interpret it as action at a distance), but it's not a quantum leap. > As for exponential, how is it wrong? Something 10x greater than > the part before it is the standard, although I suppose it can be > less if you operate in something other than base 10. (As a computer > guy I deal in base 2 quite frequently). I suppose "increasing > logrithmically" doesn't sound as sex. :) I don't think I've heard that meaning. What "increasing exponentially" means mathematically is increasing according to an exponential function, like compound interest. "Exponentially" more doesn't mean anything mathematically. > Those seem pretty clear to me. How am I wrong? > > > I got somebody mad at me on another list by arguing about physics > > without revealing that I have a Ph.D. in it and teach it (the guy > > felt ambushed), so consider it revealed. > > Sucker. Now I can ask questions and expect solid answers. :) I'm a lowly community-college instructor, and John Oliver is a tenured professor. Expect from him. Heh. (If I'm right in thinking that you recently posted here for the first time, John-- good timing, and welcome to the list!) Jerry Friedman, phudnik ("a nudnik with a Ph. D.") __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Feb 16 10:32:57 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:32:57 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <000201c513cb$78fad340$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <200502160122.j1G1MT1r010670@bryann.net> <000201c513cb$78fad340$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050216132647.034b6970@pop.east.cox.net> At 21:01 02/15/2005, Howard Brazee wrote: >Bryan Newell wrote: > > > The Intro to Dzurlord - > > "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the shape of > > Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the > > moment) more than half of it." > >Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million square >miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in one time zone. China is in one time zone because the Chinese have ignored geography. Solar noon occurs over a range of about 4 hours at various places in China. The United States could be put into one time zone with exactly the same logic (governmental fiat). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From lydy at demesne.com Wed Feb 16 10:59:07 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:59:07 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <20050216180046.54438.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> At 10:00 AM 2/16/2005 -0800, Jerry Friedman wrote: >Another complaint I have about her sexuality >is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. >Many real sadists and masochists have varied fetishes and like to >act out dramas (which one of Phedre's customers does once, if I >remember correctly). You know, most people's sex is repetitive. Most couples fall into a comfortable set of behaviors, and occasionally experiment, but tend to go back to the two or three positions and techniques they like best. Moreover, adventuresome in bed isn't remotely necessary for a good sex life. Some people like stability and predictability. Others, demonstrably, not. Phaedre reacts to pain with sexual pleasure. Endit. The drama and variety come from her partners, for the most part. Given that she is largely a prostitute, she is passive in the decision-making process for the scene and style of love-making. Pretty much, as long as she's hurt, she's happy. She's got a thing about helplessness, too, which tends to go along with being a masochist. If you're tied down, you can't dodge or try to escape, no matter how much you want to in the immediate now. As for fetishists, they tend to have about the most repetitive and boring sex lives imaginable. Oh, a girl done up entirely in corset, garters, and hose may look outre, but if the person is a fetishist, that's pretty much all they want, and they can't get off if their partner isn't wearing whatever it is that gets him off. This does not lead to variety. As for scene playing, lots of people do, lots of people don't, and I would guess that the percentage of people who like acting as part of their sex life in the BDSM community are not that much higher than the percentage who like it in general. How many times have you heard of the French Housmaid or the Naught Nurse referenced (usually as a joke)? It is just about always in reference to a heterosexual, "normal" sexual relationship. How many of your friends would admit to getting off on that? Oh, probably zero. Maybe one. How many of your friends really do that, in their bedroom? You don't know and neither do I. The thing most notable about the BDSM community is how much they _talk_. Endlessly. Part of it probably has to do with how much up front negotiation is necessary. Like polyamoury, they have to set out very clear boundaries in places where "normal" people can assume an understanding. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 11:00:04 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:00:04 -0700 Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) In-Reply-To: <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:57:07 -0800, Paul Echeverri wrote: I wonder how many spam filters eliminate this thread from arriving at our mailboxes? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 11:00:15 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:00:15 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050216132647.034b6970@pop.east.cox.net> References: <200502160122.j1G1MT1r010670@bryann.net> <000201c513cb$78fad340$667ba8c0@Dad133> <6.2.0.14.2.20050216132647.034b6970@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:32:57 -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million square > miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in one time zone. > China is in one time zone because the Chinese have ignored geography. > Solar noon occurs over a range of about 4 hours at various places in > China. The United States could be put into one time zone with exactly > the same logic (governmental fiat). We do have governmental fiats to set up our current time zones. There are places in the world that are 1/2 and even 1/4 hours from their neighbors. Why not have time zones every 1/2 hour apart? That would allow noon to be closer to reality. But in a country that has daylight savings time, the relationship between our clocks and reality apparently isn't much of a concern. There's nothing special about 1 hour, except that it makes adjusting clocks easier. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 11:00:39 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:00:39 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s Message-ID: On 02/11/2005 11:10:33 AM, Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) wrote: > This is the doctrine of moral equivilence, and it is invalid. > There are objective differences between nations that indicate how > trustworthy they are with nuclear weaponry. Eliminating all > nuclear weapons is not possible (since we would retain the > knowledge to produce more). Giving every nation-state a nuclear > weapon would result in annihilation, since inevitably those > weapons would be used. Eventually weapons with similar destructive abilities will be cheap and available. One function of SF is to explore how we will or won't be prepared for such. What happens when a lowely Teckla acquires a Great Weapon? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 11:00:59 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:00:59 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:40:16 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart wrote: > But, anyway, even if I think that those on the pro-torture side of the > aisle (see the Gonzalez confirmation or > http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/02/like_something_.html) > will acknowledge that we would have been much less likely to have gone > into Iraq if it weren't for its oil and its proximity to a lot more oil, > I don't think oil was high on the list of reasons we went in. Oil rich countries also have a bunch of dissatisfied unfulfilled youth who are willing to become terrorists. Poor despotic countries have better things to do than to export terrorism across the world. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 11:02:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:02:51 -0700 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:59:07 -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > Another complaint I have about her sexuality > is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. > Many real sadists and masochists have varied fetishes and like to > act out dramas (which one of Phedre's customers does once, if I > remember correctly). > You know, most people's sex is repetitive. Most couples fall into a > comfortable set of behaviors, and occasionally experiment, but tend to > go back to the two or three positions and techniques they like best. > Moreover, adventuresome in bed isn't remotely necessary for a good sex > life. Some people like stability and predictability. Others, > demonstrably, not. But when someone is hired out to be a special cortesian with a variety of partners, this isn't so applicable. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 11:07:50 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:07:50 -0700 Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s > On 02/11/2005 11:10:33 AM, Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) wrote: > > > This is the doctrine of moral equivilence, and it is invalid. > > There are objective differences between nations that indicate how > > trustworthy they are with nuclear weaponry. Eliminating all > > nuclear weapons is not possible (since we would retain the > > knowledge to produce more). Giving every nation-state a nuclear > > weapon would result in annihilation, since inevitably those > > weapons would be used. > > Eventually weapons with similar destructive abilities will be cheap and > available. One function of SF is to explore how we will or won't be > prepared for such. > > What happens when a lowely Teckla acquires a Great Weapon? > > > -- The same thing that will happen when an Eaterner gets one. . . . . wait a minute. . . Jeff From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 16 11:12:24 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:12:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: References: <20050210182638.GA18552@bofh.com> <20050210185754.GA19043@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > Oil rich countries also have a bunch of dissatisfied unfulfilled youth who > are willing to become terrorists. Iraq, pre-Gulf II. (Well, special case - secular, fought bloody war with neighbor.) Norway. And, again, the terrorists we should fear are older, educated, and not of particularly religious backgrounds. > Poor despotic countries have better things to do than to export > terrorism across the world. Afghanistan, Syria, Egypt to some extent. From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Feb 16 11:12:39 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:12:39 -0700 Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) Message-ID: So far not mine, only cans messages w the odd curse word, but if anyone is actually reading them, I expect IT at my door any moment.. Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:00 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:57:07 -0800, Paul Echeverri wrote: I wonder how many spam filters eliminate this thread from arriving at our mailboxes? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From louann at millerdome.com Wed Feb 16 11:24:48 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:24:48 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20050216180046.54438.qmail@web50710.mail.yahoo.com> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216132330.01f0b9b8@mail.ev1.net> At 12:59 PM 2/16/2005 -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: The thing most notable about the BDSM community is how much they _talk_. Endlessly. Part of it probably has to do with how much up front negotiation is necessary. Like polyamoury, they have to set out very clear boundaries in places where "normal" people can assume an understanding. There was an _Onion_ article about this talkative quality once. No longer on line, I think because it's in one of the compilation books. From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 11:36:43 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:36:43 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude Message-ID: On 02/15/2005 7:15:21 AM, Chris Turkel (zizban at adelphia.net) wrote: > On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > Well, > it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are aware of the > > difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula > > developed > > to ascertain the time in different local China has one time zone. Saudi Arabia isn't under any time zone. "official" clocks are set according to sunrise. The USAF does quite a bit using Zulu time. This is very useful for an organization that moves fast across time zones. Which leads me to conclude: An "official" time would be useful in determining when to teleport over to Castle Black for a party from the other side of the Empire. Let everybody adjust to "Empire Standard Time". -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 16 11:54:29 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:54:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) In-Reply-To: <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Paul Echeverri wrote: @> >You know, I think most of the BDSM enthusiasts I know would disagree with @> >you. Although, honestly, it's difficult or perhaps even impossible to @> >disentagle genetic predisposition from behavioral conditioning anyway. @> > @> With respect, most BDSM enthusiasts are not credible sources of @> information about the psychology of their enthusiasms. Fair enough. Our two 'mosts' may not overlap there, though. @> There is a significant membership overlap between Usenet sexual abuse @> recovery newsgroups and BDSM newsgroups. This overlap is either never @> discussed or its interest hotly denied, sometimes to the point of @> absurdity -- I recall at least one claim that the poster's abuse had @> *nothing to do* with their BDSM interests, while discussing a 'scene' @> that closely replicated the circumstances of the abuse as described in @> the recovery newsgroup. On the other hand, I have personal knowledge of several members of this community who have not been abused, or even severely traumatized, at any point in their lives. That's not to say that childhood abuse can't be a source of sadistic or masochistic behavior (it would be foolish to deny that), simply that I'm not willing to say "all BDSM behavior is based on childhood trauma", since counterexamples exist. "All BDSM behavior is psychological" is even more difficult. If I like a certain flavor of potato chips, is that because my parents got them one time for that really great birthday party when I was seven, or because my taste buds happen to react well to their components? Or is it even a clear-cut case of either/or? From bad_karma at mindspring.com Wed Feb 16 11:59:44 2005 From: bad_karma at mindspring.com (Clayton A. Oliver) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:59:44 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Time and longitude Message-ID: <24292599.1108583984596.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Quoth Howard Brazee : >The USAF does quite a bit using Zulu time. This is very useful for an >organization that moves fast across time zones. Which leads me to >conclude: > >An "official" time would be useful in determining when to teleport over to >Castle Black for a party from the other side of the Empire. Let >everybody adjust to "Empire Standard Time". It doesn't matter what time you get to Castle Black. The party is always going on. :) - C., being deliberately irrelevant From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 16 12:00:15 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:00:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) In-Reply-To: References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, John Klein wrote: > Fair enough. Our two 'mosts' may not overlap there, though. I think 'most' was an overstatement on my part. Please replace 'many'. > On the other hand, I have personal knowledge of several members of this > community who have not been abused, or even severely traumatized, at any > point in their lives. That's not to say that childhood abuse can't be a > source of sadistic or masochistic behavior (it would be foolish to deny > that), simply that I'm not willing to say "all BDSM behavior is based on > childhood trauma", since counterexamples exist. Oh, by all means. I never meant to imply a totality. More of a one-way function -- childhood trauma inclines the child to variant sexual expression, one avenue of which is BDSM. Other avenues include complete withdrawal >from the sexual battlefield or enthusiastic, albeit shallow, pursuit of carnality. > "All BDSM behavior is > psychological" is even more difficult. If I like a certain flavor of > potato chips, is that because my parents got them one time for that really > great birthday party when I was seven, or because my taste buds happen to > react well to their components? Or is it even a clear-cut case of > either/or? My guess would be 'inclines, but does not compel.' pe From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 12:14:43 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:14:43 +0100 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <24292599.1108583984596.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well, what is a time zone anyway? Peter H. Granzeau and myself assumes/knows/thinks (strike out whatever is inappropriate) that every "one hour strip" of the Earth is one time zone, while others assumes/knows/thinks that each place with the same time is the same time zone, regardless of wherever the sun is. Who's right? BTW, I assume I may be fooled in translation here as well, after all, I'm just a dirty furriner... /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 16 12:21:21 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:21:21 -0500 Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) Message-ID: <1BF1D9C4.458DAD95.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/16/2005 2:00:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Howard Brazee" writes: >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:57:07 -0800, Paul Echeverri >wrote: > >I wonder how many spam filters eliminate this thread from arriving at our >mailboxes? > > You know, I never got the original of either of these. -C From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Feb 16 12:25:04 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whip me, Daddy (was Re: Conditioning) Message-ID: <200502162025.j1GKP4am022239@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> John Klein wrote: > On the other hand, I have personal knowledge of several members of this > community who have not been abused, or even severely traumatized, at any > point in their lives. That's not to say that childhood abuse can't be a > source of sadistic or masochistic behavior (it would be foolish to deny > that), simply that I'm not willing to say "all BDSM behavior is based on > childhood trauma", since counterexamples exist. My views on this has changed over the last few years. I, too, have met a few BDSMers who are completely reasonable, hadn't had childhood traumas or psychological issues, and are perfectly happy. On the other hand, I've known some who have serious issues and refuse to examine them. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule, group, catagory, etc. It's the way of it. What does that bumper sticker say again? ;) Chris "Subbing is dull, and Domming too much work." ~ From a friend of mine From lydy at demesne.com Wed Feb 16 12:45:09 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:45:09 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> At 12:02 PM 2/16/2005 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:59:07 -0600, Lydia Nickerson >wrote: > >>Another complaint I have about her sexuality >>is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. >>Many real sadists and masochists have varied fetishes and like to >>act out dramas (which one of Phedre's customers does once, if I >>remember correctly). >> You know, most people's sex is repetitive. Most couples fall into a >>comfortable set of behaviors, and occasionally experiment, but tend to >>go back to the two or three positions and techniques they like best. >>Moreover, adventuresome in bed isn't remotely necessary for a good sex >>life. Some people like stability and predictability. Others, >>demonstrably, not. > >But when someone is hired out to be a special cortesian with a variety of >partners, this isn't so applicable. Um, how many prostitutes do you know? Frankly, imagination is not a hallmark of people who seek out that kind of service. How do I know? I worked in a massage parlour for a year, and several of my friends had been in the life for quite some time. There are people who are extremely creative, but better than 90% of them have fairly predictable desires. This includes the BDSM community. I enjoyed _Kushiel's Dart_ a great deal, but I was ever so grateful that it didn't get into the role playing stuff. Personally, it squicks me. On the other hand, I thought that Kushiel's patrons were unusually interesting and creative. A little over the top, but descriptions of real life lack the edge that you want in fiction, even though as an actual experience, real life can be very sharp indeed. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 16 12:51:39 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:51:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Martin Wohlert wrote: @> Well, what is a time zone anyway? @> @> Peter H. Granzeau and myself assumes/knows/thinks (strike out whatever is @> inappropriate) that every "one hour strip" of the Earth is one time zone, @> while others assumes/knows/thinks that each place with the same time is the @> same time zone, regardless of wherever the sun is. @> @> Who's right? What, you think it's as simple as who's right and who's wrong? Heh. The problem here is that time is an artificial human construct that we use to conveniently measure a certain aspect of the universe. We've made a couple of common-sense choices (the unit called "day" is about one rotation of our planet on its axis, and the unit called "year" is about one orbit of our planet around the sun) and basically standardized the size of the time units worldwide, but beyond that we're just making stuff up. And the problem is that different countries, and in some cases different areas in the different countries, have decided to make up different stuff. So the question is: what does it mean for it to be 06:00? If you want that to mean "it's morning", then you have to make 06:00 occur at non-simultaneous times at different points on the globe, and adjust 06:00 periodically when the day changes size. And of course you're just SOL at the poles. This is the approach the U.S. has taken (along with most of the civilized world). If you just think 06:00 means "six hours after we've arbitrarily started the day, even if we're starting the day in the afernoon here", then you don't have to do any of that. That's basically what China has decided. So, long story longer: which group is right depends on what you mean by "time zone". The dictionary says a time zone has to follow both rules: it must be one of 24 longitudinal divisions and it must keep the same time. So I suppose, according to the Keepers of the English Language, China doesn't have any time zones at all (since it keeps different time in those strips than other things which share the same strip do). From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 16 12:56:35 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > Dulciculi Aliquorum Guess the standard spam filters aren't sensitive to Latin (assuming I'm reading that right - "sweet unmentionables of some people"). From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 13:41:13 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:41:13 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Time and longitude > On 02/15/2005 7:15:21 AM, Chris Turkel (zizban at adelphia.net) wrote: > > On Feb 15, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > > > > Well, > > it's an assumption, but here goes. Drageareans are aware of the > > > difference in "time zones", I believe Lady Teldra mentions formula > > > developed > > > to ascertain the time in different local > > > China has one time zone. Saudi Arabia isn't under any time zone. > "official" clocks are set according to sunrise. > > > The USAF does quite a bit using Zulu time. This is very useful for an > organization that moves fast across time zones. Which leads me to > conclude: > > An "official" time would be useful in determining when to teleport over to > Castle Black for a party from the other side of the Empire. Let > everybody adjust to "Empire Standard Time". > > > > > > Ha, I like that. "Orb Control, this is Jehreg 17, can I get a time hack?" "Jehreg 17, this is Orb Control. Time is 1448 EST, 2348 local in 3, 2, 1, Hack." "Copy that Orb Control, Jehreg 17 is clear." Jeff From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:04:14 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050214121753.034ba550@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050216230414.95148.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > No one. Vlad has never met Mario, he only knows him by reputation. Vlad has never met Mario *as far as he knows*. While Steve has assured us that ~"nobody is secretly anyone else"~ (approximate quote) [after The Big Revelation in one of the already-published Vlad books -- no spoilers here!], who can tell about that peddler he bought a pie from last Firstday? (... and I'm cuttin' me own throat... no, not HIM! Somebody else's, maybe.) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:09:03 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:09:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1st in 2005! ;) In-Reply-To: <20050215043429.FRNL25487.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <20050216230903.96542.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Shawn Burns wrote: > Nice Kerr reference. But do we know that Dragaera is supposed to fit into > Earth's timestream in some way? Deverry is in an alternate universe but > links up within a larger multiverse to real Earth; is Dragaera in the same > universe or even the same multiverse as Earth? Maybe there is no Earth in > any part of the multiverse associated with Steve's books. (Although here I > think a reference in Teckla to some socialist books might undermine this > objection). See http://cracksandshards.com/cracks.html#Brust_and_Paarfi. Brust interviews Paarfi, Paarfi interviews Brust, and apparently Vlad is telling his story to Brust. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lydy at demesne.com Wed Feb 16 15:09:04 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:09:04 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216170825.01b9a600@gw.dd-b.net> At 12:56 PM 2/16/2005 -0800, Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > > Dulciculi Aliquorum > >Guess the standard spam filters aren't sensitive to Latin >(assuming I'm reading that right - "sweet unmentionables of some people"). Not quite. It's an exclamation of fond exasperation: Some people's sweeties! Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:11:25 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050216231125.70293.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an **easy**, > flexible language with a great children's literature. I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to respond to trolling. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:14:56 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:14:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050216231125.70293.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216231456.95305.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an **easy**, > > flexible language with a great children's literature. > > > I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to > respond to trolling. And, what's more, when I'm going through 700 piled-up Dragaera messages and have sorted my Brust folder in topic order, I really ought to check the date of a message before responding to it. Sorry about that. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 16 15:16:49 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216170825.01b9a600@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216170825.01b9a600@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:56 PM 2/16/2005 -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > > > > Dulciculi Aliquorum > > > >Guess the standard spam filters aren't sensitive to Latin > >(assuming I'm reading that right - "sweet unmentionables of some people"). > > Not quite. It's an exclamation of fond exasperation: Some people's sweeties! There's a Latin word "culus" which means something like "bottom" - but now that I think of it there's also the diminutive "-culus". Distinguishing between the two is way beyond my reading comprehension, though. Any non-illiterate Latin readers, please chime in. From lydy at demesne.com Wed Feb 16 15:22:33 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:22:33 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216170825.01b9a600@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> <5.2.1.1.0.20050216170825.01b9a600@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216172133.01c10b28@gw.dd-b.net> At 03:16 PM 2/16/2005 -0800, Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > > At 12:56 PM 2/16/2005 -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > > > > > > Dulciculi Aliquorum > > > > > >Guess the standard spam filters aren't sensitive to Latin > > >(assuming I'm reading that right - "sweet unmentionables of some people"). > > > > Not quite. It's an exclamation of fond exasperation: Some people's > sweeties! > >There's a Latin word "culus" which means something like "bottom" - >but now that I think of it there's also the diminutive "-culus". >Distinguishing between the two is way beyond my reading comprehension, >though. Any non-illiterate Latin readers, please chime in. I won't swear to its accuracy, but I did get it from the graduate lounge of the Latin students here at the U of M. After they'd finished laughing and falling over, you understand. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:22:32 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:22:32 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <20050216232232.31674.qmail@server261.com> "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an **easy**, > > flexible language with a great children's literature. > I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to > respond to trolling. Actually, English does have a few things to recommend it as a universal language. First, of course, is that it's already so popular. Secondly, and this is based on my experience only - I havn't investiagted the claim, so if I'm wildly worng please don't mock me - it's *short*. Stuff that takes ten seconds to say, an inch to write, in English, when translated into French or Spanish takes twenty seconds to say, and an inch and a half to write. (Obviously a language using an ideograph writing system would obviously take less space to write, but it takes just as long to say, and I think any ideographic writing system would be right out as a universal language for reasons of learning time.) Thirdly, it *is* flexible, in the sense that it steals stuff from all sorts of other languges without having to distort them much to make them sound natural. That's mainly aesthetic, but aesthetic is good in language, and it enables the language to grow easily. I believe I read once (can't remeber where) that there are about half a million "acknowledged" English words (they're in the unabridged dictionary) and only about a hundred thousand in most Romance languages. However, I've always thought that the best way to create a universal language is to give up on the "language" part and instead create universal *grammar* into which word bases from any language may be inserted. It might not let everyone speak to each other, but translation computers would actually become useful tools, because all they'd have to deal with would be changing the *vocabulary*. From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:25:02 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:25:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conditioning (was: Kushiel's Dart) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050216232502.70341.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- John Klein wrote: > Which is one of the things I wonder about in the context of Dragaeran > reincarnation. We know that reincarnation and genetics react "oddly" with > each other. What would happen if a soul was reincarnated into a body that > had brain damage? See _Lord of Light_, by Roger Zelazny, for one take. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 15:34:47 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:34:47 -0700 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c51480$1af6d2c0$667ba8c0@Dad133> John Klein wrote: > So, long story longer: which group is right depends on what you mean > by "time zone". The dictionary says a time zone has to follow both > rules: it must be one of 24 longitudinal divisions and it must keep > the same time. Not every dictionary, for instance: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=time+zone But most do, which I find preposterous. Because... > So I suppose, according to the Keepers of the English Language, China > doesn't have any time zones at all (since it keeps different time in > those strips than other things which share the same strip do). I have a map of time zones on my wall. It is pretty old - the USSR is on it. Some of those time zones are not multiples of the full hour (India). Any definition that says China doesn't have a time zone is missing the point. From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 15:35:04 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:35:04 -0700 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <000201c51480$24e209d0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:02 PM 2/16/2005 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:59:07 -0600, Lydia Nickerson >> wrote: >> >>> Another complaint I have about her sexuality >>> is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. >>> Many real sadists and masochists have varied fetishes and like to >>> act out dramas (which one of Phedre's customers does once, if I >>> remember correctly). You know, most people's sex is repetitive. >>> Most couples fall into a comfortable set of behaviors, and >>> occasionally experiment, but tend to go back to the two or three >>> positions and techniques they like best. Moreover, adventuresome in >>> bed isn't remotely necessary for a good sex life. Some people like >>> stability and predictability. Others, demonstrably, not. >> >> But when someone is hired out to be a special cortesian with a >> variety of partners, this isn't so applicable. > > > Um, how many prostitutes do you know? _Kushiel's Dart_ wasn't about a real life prostitute. Frankly, imagination is not a > On the other hand, I thought that Kushiel's patrons were unusually > interesting and creative. Her patrons wouldn't be looking for an ordinary prostitute. They can be had much more cheaply and easily. From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 16 15:40:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:40:51 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050216232232.31674.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: <000301c51480$f37a86f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> English appears to be one of the easiest languages to communicate in - if you don't require knowing the language well. Pidgin English doesn't require good knowledge of tenses for instance. I did go to the store, I will go to the store. If you want to learn a language well, there are much easier languages. But to learn it poorly, English is a good choice. And of course, it is ubiquitous. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Wed Feb 16 15:50:27 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:50:27 -0800 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <000301c51480$f37a86f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:41 PM > To: Dragaera (E-mail) > Subject: RE: A Linguistic Note > > English appears to be one of the easiest languages to > communicate in - if > you don't require knowing the language well. Pidgin English doesn't > require good knowledge of tenses for instance. I did go to > the store, I > will go to the store. > > If you want to learn a language well, there are much easier > languages. But > to learn it poorly, English is a good choice. > > And of course, it is ubiquitous. > > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 16 15:51:48 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:51:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? "Nifty." pe From books at bofh.com Wed Feb 16 16:21:47 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:21:47 -0700 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <000301c51480$f37a86f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20050217002147.GA2061@bofh.com> > > And of course, it is ubiquitous. > > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? Easily corruptible. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From dar at horusinc.com Wed Feb 16 17:10:15 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:10:15 -0600 Subject: Whip me, Daddy ... *twitch* In-Reply-To: <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> Message-ID: <200502170110.j1H1AGur136818@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Can't... Resist... In response to many people. >>With respect, most BDSM enthusiasts are not credible sources of information about the psychology of their enthusiasms.<< With equal respect, without some guidance most people are not credible sources of information about their own psychology in general - that's why people to various and sundry trained professionals to help them out with such matters. >>There is a significant membership overlap between Usenet sexual abuse recovery newsgroups and BDSM newsgroups. This overlap is either never discussed or its interest hotly denied, sometimes to the point of absurdity -- I recall at least one claim that the poster's abuse had *nothing to do* with their BDSM interests, while discussing a 'scene' that closely replicated the circumstances of the abuse as described in the recovery newsgroup.<< Internet discussion groups are one of the worst possible examples you could have pulled for this. The signal-to-noise ratio of people *actually* in the Scene vs. those who practice 'eBDSM' is generally high - and even then may or may not be a representative of individuals in the larger Altsex community. Also keep in mind that 'BDSM' covers three very distinctive groups - B&D, D/s, and SM. Three different styles of play with often quite different motivations and results - and also there's a huge range of activity or intensity within BDSM play. Is it a spanking from your wife or do you a St. Xavier cross in your bedroom with a single-tail hanging from it? Is this something occasional to spice up an otherwise vanilla dynamic or are you talking a 24/7 TPE (Total Power Exchange - i.e. Master/slave) relationship? >>Also, speaking of sf, Samuel Delany said in one of his essays that the causes of S&M are pretty well understood, and many sadists and masochists had a clear idea of how they got that way. So somebody's wrong here (but it could be Delany).<< In my experience, both as a layperson in the Scene (pardon the pun) and as a researcher, the cause of 'BDSM identity' is about as well understood as the causes of polyamorous behavior. The most common 'reason' cited that I've heard is 'because I've always fantasized about it/I've always been this way.' There's generally some picture or event that is linked to an early memory, but it's about at concrete as a LesBiGay individual knowing that they were not heterosexual. Alternately - they got spanked or tied up during sex with a more experienced partner as an adult and discover that they like it - a lot. The antecedents are about as clear as mud. >>On the other hand, I have personal knowledge of several members of this community who have not been abused, or even severely traumatized, at any point in their lives. That's not to say that childhood abuse can't be a source of sadistic or masochistic behavior (it would be foolish to deny that), simply that I'm not willing to say "all BDSM behavior is based on childhood trauma", since counterexamples exist.<< An important thing is to differentiate between pathological sadism or masochism and the sadistic or masochistic identity. Childhood abuse can be much more reliably linked to PTSD, Disassociative Identity Disorder, and Borderline Personality Disorder, among other syndromes - there's little clinical evidence to a BDSM lifestyle being linked to childhood abuse. >>"All BDSM behavior is psychological" is even more difficult. If I like a certain flavor of potato chips, is that because my parents got them one time for that really great birthday party when I was seven, or because my taste buds happen to react well to their components? Or is it even a clear-cut case of either/or?<< There's some fascinating recent research into the physical basis of pain and physiological arousal that has some possible application in the question. There's also a strong history linking pain, eroticism, and mysticism (bringing this back around to Phaedre...) in both the East and the West - as well as the use of altered states of consciousness (through the mortification of the flesh) in prayer and meditation. David Rodemaker From dar at horusinc.com Wed Feb 16 17:22:43 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:22:43 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216143828.01b10468@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <200502170123.j1H1MjpZ357654@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> >>Another complaint I have about her sexuality >>is that it's repetitive. Silk ropes, whip, X-acto knife, orgasm. >>Many real sadists and masochists have varied fetishes and like to >>act out dramas (which one of Phedre's customers does once, if I >>remember correctly). >> You know, most people's sex is repetitive. Most couples fall into a >>comfortable set of behaviors, and occasionally experiment, but tend to >>go back to the two or three positions and techniques they like best. >>Moreover, adventuresome in bed isn't remotely necessary for a good sex >>life. Some people like stability and predictability. Others, >>demonstrably, not. > >But when someone is hired out to be a special cortesian with a variety of >partners, this isn't so applicable. Um, how many prostitutes do you know? Frankly, imagination is not a hallmark of people who seek out that kind of service. How do I know? I worked in a massage parlour for a year, and several of my friends had been in the life for quite some time. There are people who are extremely creative, but better than 90% of them have fairly predictable desires. This includes the BDSM community. I enjoyed _Kushiel's Dart_ a great deal, but I was ever so grateful that it didn't get into the role playing stuff. Personally, it squicks me. On the other hand, I thought that Kushiel's patrons were unusually interesting and creative. A little over the top, but descriptions of real life lack the edge that you want in fiction, even though as an actual experience, real life can be very sharp indeed. --- As another note - Phaedre is known/hired specifically because of who/what she is - and comes from a culture that accepts BDSM as a basically natural style of sexual activity. The chances of somebody paying her for a simple BJ are pretty small - and as is noted in the later books. *She* gets to pick and choose her partners - much more in the vein of a classic French Courtesan as opposed to a modern-day streetwalker. David Rodemaker From dar at horusinc.com Wed Feb 16 17:27:19 2005 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:27:19 -0600 Subject: Kushiel's Dart In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050216124528.01c15e80@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <200502170127.j1H1RJHc195476@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> >>As for scene playing, lots of people do, lots of people don't, and I would guess that the percentage of people who like acting as part of their sex life in the BDSM community are not that much higher than the percentage who like it in general. How many times have you heard of the French Housmaid or the Naught Nurse referenced (usually as a joke)? It is just about always in reference to a heterosexual, "normal" sexual relationship. How many of your friends would admit to getting off on that? Oh, probably zero. Maybe one. How many of your friends really do that, in their bedroom? You don't know and neither do I. The thing most notable about the BDSM community is how much they _talk_. Endlessly. Part of it probably has to do with how much up front negotiation is necessary. Like polyamoury, they have to set out very clear boundaries in places where "normal" people can assume an understanding.<< It's one of those strange words 'scene' that gets used in the Leather Community/the Lifestyle/the Scene- it's more like 'a negotiated script f behaviors' than a 'scene in a play with costumes and roles'. As you point out it may have roles and costumes - but it may not. Excellent point about the link to polyamoury also. David Rodemaker From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Feb 16 18:02:30 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:02:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whip me, Daddy ... *twitch* In-Reply-To: <200502170110.j1H1AGur136818@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200502170110.j1H1AGur136818@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, David Rodemaker wrote: > With equal respect, without some guidance most people are not credible > sources of information about their own psychology in general - that's why > people to various and sundry trained professionals to help them out with > such matters. Quite so. > Internet discussion groups are one of the worst possible examples you could > have pulled for this. The signal-to-noise ratio of people *actually* in the > Scene vs. those who practice 'eBDSM' is generally high - and even then may > or may not be a representative of individuals in the larger Altsex > community. This is a solid point, and I'm sorry I missed it. > Also keep in mind that 'BDSM' covers three very distinctive groups - B&D, > D/s, and SM. Three different styles of play with often quite different > motivations and results - and also there's a huge range of activity or > intensity within BDSM play. Is it a spanking from your wife or do you a St. > Xavier cross in your bedroom with a single-tail hanging from it? Is this > something occasional to spice up an otherwise vanilla dynamic or are you > talking a 24/7 TPE (Total Power Exchange - i.e. Master/slave) relationship? Er, yes, though I'm not sure how the taxonomy of powerkink is particularly of import. > The antecedents are about as clear as mud. *nods* > An important thing is to differentiate between pathological sadism or > masochism and the sadistic or masochistic identity. Childhood abuse can be > much more reliably linked to PTSD, Disassociative Identity Disorder, and > Borderline Personality Disorder, among other syndromes - there's little > clinical evidence to a BDSM lifestyle being linked to childhood abuse. About as little as there is clinical evidence for DID, the existence of which is still pretty strongly debated, or was last time I checked, sometime in the 1999-2001 area. Not disputing the claim that evidence is weak, mind, just making a sidebar comment. pe From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 16 18:14:23 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Whip me, Daddy ... *twitch* In-Reply-To: References: <200502170110.j1H1AGur136818@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, David Rodemaker wrote: > > > An important thing is to differentiate between pathological sadism or > > masochism and the sadistic or masochistic identity. Childhood abuse can be > > much more reliably linked to PTSD, Disassociative Identity Disorder, and > > Borderline Personality Disorder, among other syndromes - there's little > > clinical evidence to a BDSM lifestyle being linked to childhood abuse. > > About as little as there is clinical evidence for DID, the existence of > which is still pretty strongly debated, or was last time I checked, sometime > in the 1999-2001 area. Not disputing the claim that evidence is weak, mind, > just making a sidebar comment. IANAP (I am not a psych...) but it was my impression (mostly from a recent New Yorker article about the diagnostic manual etc.) that there is controversy about many or most diagnoses/syndromes as well as about the effects of abuse. Which wouldn't surprise me given the difficulty of the science. From scs at di.org Thu Feb 17 04:54:08 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:54:08 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <000301c51480$f37a86f0$667ba8c0@Dad133> <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20050217125408.GA21682@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 03:50:27PM -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > And of course, it is ubiquitous. > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? It means everybody knows what the words mean. Steve "struggling to keep a straight face" Simmons -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail? From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Thu Feb 17 05:56:08 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:56:08 -0500 Subject: Whip me, Daddy ... *twitch* Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > IANAP (I am not a psych...) but it was my impression (mostly from a > recent New Yorker article about the diagnostic manual etc.) that there > is controversy about many or most diagnoses/syndromes as well as about > the effects of abuse. Which wouldn't surprise me given the difficulty > of the science. Psychology makes me think of trying to describe physics without math. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 17 06:44:54 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:44:54 -0700 Subject: Whip me, Daddy ... *twitch* References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grady Brandt" To: "'Philip Hart'" ; Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:56 AM Subject: RE: Whip me, Daddy ... *twitch* > > Psychology makes me think of trying to describe physics without math. > Oooo, I like that one. (Files in memory bank for later use) Jeff From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Feb 17 07:09:11 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:09:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Conditioning (was: Kushiel's Dart) In-Reply-To: <20050216232502.70341.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050216232502.70341.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: @> > Which is one of the things I wonder about in the context of Dragaeran @> > reincarnation. We know that reincarnation and genetics react "oddly" with @> > each other. What would happen if a soul was reincarnated into a body that @> > had brain damage? @> @> See _Lord of Light_, by Roger Zelazny, for one take. Of course, that wasn't in the back of my head /at all/ when I wrote that message. ;) From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Feb 17 10:40:51 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:40:51 -0600 Subject: Whip me, Daddy In-Reply-To: (John Klein's message of "Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:54:29 -0500 (EST)") References: <20050216033045.85904.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1108531755.24840.29.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050216062222.GF3174@infodancer.org> <20050216063628.GG3174@infodancer.org> <59e251ba050216000369f3b698@mail.gmail.com> <42138973.5060108@pollywog.com> Message-ID: John Klein writes: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Paul Echeverri wrote: > > @> >You know, I think most of the BDSM enthusiasts I know would disagree with > @> >you. Although, honestly, it's difficult or perhaps even impossible to > @> >disentagle genetic predisposition from behavioral conditioning anyway. > @> > > @> With respect, most BDSM enthusiasts are not credible sources of > @> information about the psychology of their enthusiasms. > > Fair enough. Our two 'mosts' may not overlap there, though. > > @> There is a significant membership overlap between Usenet sexual abuse > @> recovery newsgroups and BDSM newsgroups. This overlap is either never > @> discussed or its interest hotly denied, sometimes to the point of > @> absurdity -- I recall at least one claim that the poster's abuse had > @> *nothing to do* with their BDSM interests, while discussing a 'scene' > @> that closely replicated the circumstances of the abuse as described in > @> the recovery newsgroup. > > On the other hand, I have personal knowledge of several members of this > community who have not been abused, or even severely traumatized, at any > point in their lives. That's not to say that childhood abuse can't be a > source of sadistic or masochistic behavior (it would be foolish to deny > that), simply that I'm not willing to say "all BDSM behavior is based on > childhood trauma", since counterexamples exist. "All BDSM behavior is > psychological" is even more difficult. If I like a certain flavor of > potato chips, is that because my parents got them one time for that really > great birthday party when I was seven, or because my taste buds happen to > react well to their components? Or is it even a clear-cut case of > either/or? And a number of the people *I* know in the community find the possible connection between abuse and BDSM both specifically and generally fascinating; not something to be denied without consideration. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From s1burns at ucsd.edu Thu Feb 17 10:50:32 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:50:32 -0800 Subject: Ubiquitous Message-ID: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> This turned out to be funnier than I had even intended: Howard: "If you want to learn a language well, there are much easier languages. But to learn it poorly, English is a good choice. And of course, it is ubiquitous." Shawn (commenting on how easy communication is in English even if used poorly): "What is a 'ubiquitous' mean?" Def #1: "Nifty" (this may have been a joke) Def #2: "Easily Corruptible" Def #3: "Widespread" Def #4: "It means that everybody knows what the words mean" I got kicked in the head by how truly difficult (and possibly non-ubiquitous) the English language is. Perhaps the words themselves are ubiquitous (although this is a matter of degree), but definitions are resistant to dissemination. And they are malleable. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm going to use "ubiquitous" as "nifty" from now on. Shawn From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 17 11:07:40 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:07:40 -0700 Subject: Ubiquitous References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Burns" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Ubiquitous > This turned out to be funnier than I had even intended: > > Howard: "If you want to learn a language well, there are much easier > languages. But > to learn it poorly, English is a good choice. And of course, it is > ubiquitous." > > Shawn (commenting on how easy communication is in English even if used > poorly): "What is a 'ubiquitous' mean?" > > Def #1: "Nifty" (this may have been a joke) > Def #2: "Easily Corruptible" > Def #3: "Widespread" > Def #4: "It means that everybody knows what the words mean" > > I got kicked in the head by how truly difficult (and possibly > non-ubiquitous) the English language is. Perhaps the words themselves are > ubiquitous (although this is a matter of degree), but definitions are > resistant to dissemination. And they are malleable. And there's nothing > wrong with that. I'm going to use "ubiquitous" as "nifty" from now on. > > Shawn > > I find this to be the case in written communication more often than when speaking. I wonder if this is from the visual/body language cues that are missing, or if in a verbal conversation one is more likely to ask a question at the point of misunderstanding? Jeff From scs at di.org Thu Feb 17 11:30:05 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:30:05 -0500 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 10:50:32AM -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > Shawn (commenting on how easy communication is in English even if used > poorly): "What is a 'ubiquitous' mean?" > > Def #1: "Nifty" (this may have been a joke) > Def #2: "Easily Corruptible" > Def #3: "Widespread" > Def #4: "It means that everybody knows what the words mean" > > I got kicked in the head by how truly difficult (and possibly > non-ubiquitous) the English language is. Perhaps the words themselves are > ubiquitous (although this is a matter of degree), but definitions are > resistant to dissemination. And they are malleable. And there's nothing > wrong with that. I'm going to use "ubiquitous" as "nifty" from now on. Or it could be that all four responses were jokes. Only #3 and #4 come even vaguely close to what it actually means, and I'm pretty sure #4 was a joke. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 17 11:35:05 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:35:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: > We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights > in the computer room emit: > He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. > Me: If only we did, too. We are getting brighter, at least in some sense. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 17 11:36:49 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:36:49 -0700 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050217193649.GA10268@bofh.com> On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 02:30:05PM -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 10:50:32AM -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > Shawn (commenting on how easy communication is in English even if used > > poorly): "What is a 'ubiquitous' mean?" > > > > Def #1: "Nifty" (this may have been a joke) > > Def #2: "Easily Corruptible" > > Def #3: "Widespread" > > Def #4: "It means that everybody knows what the words mean" > > Or it could be that all four responses were jokes. Only #3 and #4 come > even vaguely close to what it actually means, and I'm pretty sure #4 was > a joke. As the author of #2, I can tell you _it_ was certainly a joke. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Feb 17 11:56:04 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:56:04 -0500 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <4214F6D4.30002@email.ers.usda.gov> Steve Simmons wrote: >Or it could be that all four responses were jokes. Only #3 and #4 come >even vaguely close to what it actually means, and I'm pretty sure #4 was >a joke. > > All I know is, I want my instant Ubikwitous *now*! Snarkhunter From scs at di.org Thu Feb 17 12:06:13 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:06:13 -0500 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <20050217193649.GA10268@bofh.com> References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050217193649.GA10268@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20050217200613.GC22687@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 12:36:49PM -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 02:30:05PM -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 10:50:32AM -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > Shawn (commenting on how easy communication is in English even if used > > > poorly): "What is a 'ubiquitous' mean?" > > > > > > Def #1: "Nifty" (this may have been a joke) > > > Def #2: "Easily Corruptible" > > > Def #3: "Widespread" > > > Def #4: "It means that everybody knows what the words mean" > > > > Or it could be that all four responses were jokes. Only #3 and #4 come > > even vaguely close to what it actually means, and I'm pretty sure #4 was > > a joke. > > As the author of #2, I can tell you _it_ was certainly a joke. :) As the author of #4, I salute you! OK, let's hear from bachelor #2. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Thu Feb 17 12:33:31 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:33:31 -0800 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <20050217200613.GC22687@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <200502172033.j1HKXWTi022548@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at di.org] > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:06 PM > To: Jot Powers > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info; Shawn Burns > Subject: Re: Ubiquitous > > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 12:36:49PM -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 02:30:05PM -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 10:50:32AM -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > > > Shawn (commenting on how easy communication is in > English even if > > > > used > > > > poorly): "What is a 'ubiquitous' mean?" > > > > > > > > Def #1: "Nifty" (this may have been a joke) Def #2: "Easily > > > > Corruptible" > > > > Def #3: "Widespread" > > > > Def #4: "It means that everybody knows what the words mean" > > > > > > Or it could be that all four responses were jokes. Only > #3 and #4 > > > come even vaguely close to what it actually means, and I'm pretty > > > sure #4 was a joke. > > > > As the author of #2, I can tell you _it_ was certainly a joke. :) > > As the author of #4, I salute you! OK, let's hear from bachelor #2. > -- > We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking > lights in the computer room emit: > He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. > Me: If only we did, too. > We are an hilarious group of people, although some of us are funnier than others. Which begs the question "How do we quantify funny?" I am clearly slower on the uptake than the rest of youse. Especially y'all Steve. Shawn From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 12:39:18 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:39:18 -0600 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <20050217200613.GC22687@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <200502171850.j1HIoXTi021816@smtp.ucsd.edu> <20050217193005.GA22613@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050217193649.GA10268@bofh.com> <20050217200613.GC22687@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/home/home.html/103-5986124-4826243 HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY TRAILER (exclusive trailer hosted by amazon.com) I'm looking forward to seeing this one in April. it's going to be a great summer for movies. And with _Serenity_ coming up in September, well, I'm totally geeked out. (Yes, I left out SW: EP3. No, I don't care.) ;) 8) QUOTE February 16, 2005 - Touchstone Pictures has revealed the new trailer for The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which the studio has moved up from May 6th to April 29th. The adaptation of Douglas Adams' bestselling novel, directed by Garth Jennings, stars Sam Rockwell, Mos Def, Zooey Deschanel, Martin Freeman, Bill Nighy, Anna Chancellor, John Malkovich, Warwick Davis, Steve Pemberton, and Stephen Fry. In the hilarious comedy, Earthman Arthur Dent is having a very bad day. His house is about to be bulldozed, he discovers that his best friend is an alien and to top things off, Planet Earth is about to be demolished to make way for a hyperspace bypass. Arthur's only chance for survival: hitch a ride on a passing spacecraft. For the novice space traveler, the greatest adventure in the universe begins when the world ends. Arthur sets out on a journey in which he finds that nothing is as it seems: he learns that a towel is just the most useful thing in the universe, finds the meaning of life, and discovers that everything he needs to know can be found in one book: "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." /QUOTE -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 17 12:52:32 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:32 EST Subject: Ubiquitous Message-ID: In a message dated 02/17/2005 3:35:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, s1burns at ucsd.edu writes: We are an hilarious group of people, although some of us are funnier than others. yeah, looking. ha,ha,ha,ha. i couldn't resist a little childish glee. John D. Barbato, OD From books at bofh.com Thu Feb 17 13:04:11 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:04:11 -0700 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <200502172033.j1HKXWTi022548@smtp.ucsd.edu> References: <20050217200613.GC22687@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <200502172033.j1HKXWTi022548@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20050217210411.GA11130@bofh.com> I thought the humour was a little more obvious because it stemmed from this: > > And of course, it is ubiquitous. > > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? The fact that someone (who is now lost through attribution cutting) chose to make their statement by creating a mangling of english that we could all still understand. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 17 13:10:48 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:10:48 -0700 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:32 EST, wrote: > In a message dated 02/17/2005 3:35:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > s1burns at ucsd.edu writes: > We are an hilarious group of people, although some of us are funnier than > others. > yeah, looking. ha,ha,ha,ha. i couldn't resist a little childish glee. > > John D. Barbato, OD I have a bookmark on the top of my browser that makes looking words up easy: Create a bookmark and put the following as its URL. javascript:Qr=document.getSelection();if(!Qr){void(Qr=prompt('Enter word to find in OneLook Dictionary:',''))}if(Qr)location.href='http://www.onelook.com/?loc=pub&w='+escape(Qr)+'' -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 17 13:39:10 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:39:10 -0800 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <273601c51539$1dbbc010$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/home/home.html/103-5986124-4826243 >HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY TRAILER (exclusive trailer hosted by >amazon.com) I guess that IS an exclusive trailer. It's a bit different than the one I saw last week on some DVD we rented, anyway. It looks like they may be trying to condense "Hitchhiker's Guide" and "Life, The Universe, and Everything" into one film. I can't imagine why they made Marvin into a non-humanoid robot. I guess I'll have to try and withhold judgement until the film comes out. From frank at exit.com Thu Feb 17 13:45:59 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:45:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <273601c51539$1dbbc010$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> Scott Schultz wrote: > It looks like they may be trying to condense "Hitchhiker's Guide" and "Life, > The Universe, and Everything" into one film. I can't imagine why they made > Marvin into a non-humanoid robot. I guess I'll have to try and withhold > judgement until the film comes out. Too late. >From the trailer, it appears to have only a passing resemblance to the books. I can handle a black Ford, no problem, but Zaphod has only one head and I heard Trillian screaming for Arthur. As in "for rescue." Um, no. Sigh. Where _is_ Douglas Adams when you really need him? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Feb 17 13:49:40 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:49:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> References: <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Frank Mayhar wrote: > From the trailer, it appears to have only a passing resemblance to the books. > I can handle a black Ford, no problem, but Zaphod has only one head and > I heard Trillian screaming for Arthur. As in "for rescue." Um, no. He has two heads. The other one is in, um, a nonstandard location. A friend of mine also missed it the first time. Dunno what to say about the Trillian thing, myself, but I'm told that all non-book scenes have been taken from Adams' original material. pe From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Feb 17 14:06:51 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:06:51 -0500 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> References: <273601c51539$1dbbc010$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <4214CF2B.18994.19AA011@localhost> On 17 Feb 2005 at 13:45, Frank Mayhar wrote > > From the trailer, it appears to have only a passing resemblance to the > books. I can handle a black Ford, no problem, but Zaphod has only one > head and I heard Trillian screaming for Arthur. As in "for rescue." > Um, no. > > Sigh. Where _is_ Douglas Adams when you really need him? > -- > Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ > Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ > http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ It's hard with Hitchhiker's to say what is and isn't the "true" story because it's has so many incarnations (book, radio series, TV mini- series, record, comic, stage show, & towel- according to IMDB.com). Each time Douglas Adam's put it into a new medium, he changed bits and pieces. Although I do agree that there is no reason for Arthur to be rescuing Trillian. M (quite sure I know where MY towel is...it's in the laundry) Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 14:52:21 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:52:21 -0600 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <4214CF2B.18994.19AA011@localhost> References: <273601c51539$1dbbc010$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> <4214CF2B.18994.19AA011@localhost> Message-ID: > > Sigh. Where _is_ Douglas Adams when you really need him? Adams wrote most of the script, iirc. -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From dgf at dd-b.net Thu Feb 17 15:17:05 2005 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Feb 2005 23:17:05 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20050217231705.27524.qmail@dd-b.net> abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zerika (at) gmail.com (email) Zerika zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 17 15:24:22 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:24:22 -0800 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27d501c51547$d001b000$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Adams wrote most of the script, iirc. Looks that way. IMDB says that the screenplay is credited to Adams and someone named Karey Kirkpatrick. Sadly, it also lists Adams as Executive Producer (posthumous credit). I wasn't aware that he'd died. From bryann at bryann.net Thu Feb 17 17:04:33 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:04:33 -0600 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <20050216180705.76643.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502180104.j1I14N1r002725@bryann.net> > > > > The Intro to Dzurlord - > > > > "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the > shape of > > > > Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the > > > > moment) more than half of it." > > > > > >Then The Empire is about the size of Europe, or roughly 4 million > > square > > >miles. China is about 3.7 million square miles and is in one time > > zone. > > > > According to my map China is in about 3 time zones (tiny parts > > touching two more). > > That they have a standardized time for the whole country is a very > > different matter. > > But it's the matter under discussion. China is proof that > you can run a country the size of the Empire as one time > zone. The Empire might work the same way. (Or, pace Bryan, > it might be a lot longer north-south than east-west, or > Dragaera might be a lot bigger than Earth, or the Empire > might have more time zones than > Russia.) > > Jerry Friedman A number of people have said they thought the Empire should be wider east-west, and I agreed with them. However, the more I try to fit the various parts together, the more convinced I become that the empire runs more north-south (or perhaps southwest-northeast) than my first stab at the map. Sethra Lavode is a big reason why: pg 13 - "Kana had pulled back so that he could reasonably claim to exercise his influence over the western third of the Empire, with the exception of the Fingers, which, except for its few ports, was of little importance anyway." Kana appears to control most everything west of Adrilankha... If that constitutes a third of the empire, then the empire is much narrower than version .1 of my map. Adrilankha to Dzur Mountain is around 200 miles, and Dzur Mountain is roughly midway between the Adrilankha and Eastern rivers... And from the Eastern river to the Eastern Mountains is probably even less than that. As to the western half of the empire, Hartre is only 500km (311 miles) west of Adrilankha, and while I believe it is on the southern coast of the continent, I'm not sure how much further west you have to go before you can begin sailing north. The Paths of the Dead, pg 306 - "Early the next day, the caravan arrived outside of Hartre ... It was Kana's plan to rebuild this city both as a defensive bastion against Elde Island (he considered Rundeel too close, and Adrilankha too far away) and ... to establish regular shipping between it and Northport, the latter of which was well located for [Mount Kana]. His intention was ... for a ship [to be] sent to Candletown [reload] and to sail >from there "around the horn" (as sailors call it) to Northport. " In version .1, I put the horn between Northport and Elde, but now I'm thinking the horn is probably south of that (and thus the "southwest-northeast" comment above). Another teaser is in The Paths of the Dead, pg 132 - "a place very nearly on the opposite side of the continent from Adrilankha, that being ... Kana" "the opposite side" could mean a number of things; I ended up putting Mount Kana as far west as I felt I could get away with, but now I'm leaning towards Kana being more north than northwest of Adrilankha. Vlad says that there is no ocean within a thousand miles of Deathgate Falls (Book of Taltos pg 161). As to which coast is the closest, I haven't found anything about the coast north or east of Deathgate, but south of Deathgate could be 1000 miles--that's what I went with for version .1, putting Deathgate and the North Pinewood Hold on roughly the same latitude, since the NPH is also 1000 miles from the sea, and I felt it more likely that Paarfi was talking about the Shallow Sea to the south than the Western Ocean--although I don't really remember why at this point. :) If the western coast is only a thousand miles away, then I have to pull Northport and Kana eastward, since Northport is only a few hundred miles >from Kana, and Vlad says it should have been called Westport (which, I think, puts it on the west coast). Bryan From oliver at astro.ufl.edu Thu Feb 17 17:42:57 2005 From: oliver at astro.ufl.edu (John Oliver) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:42:57 -0500 Subject: Time and longitude In-Reply-To: <20050215185947.98627.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050215185947.98627.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42154821.7040100@astro.ufl.edu> Bryan Newell wrote: ... > Sethra Lavode pg 303-305 - > "Morrolan was more than a little startled to discover, upon returning to > Castle Black, that it was only a little past the hour of noon ... He was > still attempting to calculate an explanation for the odd behaviour of the > Furnace, which he could tell (being above the Enclouding) was far higher in > the sky than it ought to be ... He was greeted by Lady Teldra" > > M - "how can it already be late afternoon in Blackchapel, and just barely > noon here?" > T - "Well, my lord, you must remember that Blackchapel is east of > us--considerably east of us. You cannot have forgotten how many leagues > west we journeyed, in addition to no few leagues south." > M - "And so, if it is east--" > T - "Then dawn occurs there before it occurs here." > ... > T - "My lord, this fact is well known among the Orca--that is, those Orca > who sail. When they sail eastward, the day starts and ends noticeably > sooner; sailing west, when wind and currents permit, why, the day becomes > longer after starting later." > M - "What accounts for such a thing?" > T - "There are many theories, my lord, that account for it, but, so far as I > know, none have been proven." > ... > M - "Are there calculations that explain how a certain number of leagues of > easting will result in day beginning so much earlier?" > T - "Well, yes, my lord, but traveling north and south also has some > effect." > ... > T - "I have heard ... That among Orca who take long voyages to the south, > such as trading expeditions to Landsight, when one travels far enough south, > it is just as if one were traveling north." [Landsight is in the southern > hemisphere] > ... > T - "I will find the tables and charts that explain it, my lord, and I will > have them put in the library so that you may look at them at your leisure." > > > Bryan This would appear to give us an idea of the size of the planet. From Bryan's map (an distances quoted in various sources) it would appear that Morrolan traveled between 600 and 1000 miles west and noticed about a 5 (out of 30) hour change in the sun. This would put the circumferance of Dragaera at about 3600 to 6000 miles, much smaller than the Earth. -- John Oliver From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 18:54:57 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:54:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <200502162350.j1GNoTTi028521@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20050218025457.28937.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Shawn Burns wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > And of course, it is ubiquitous. > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? RTFD. I recommend Merriam-Webster Online: http://www.m-w.com/. It is a good dictionary and a reputable one, and unlike the Oxford English Dictionary Online, is free. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From shannon3d at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 18:56:24 2005 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <27d501c51547$d001b000$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20050218025624.53982.qmail@web52004.mail.yahoo.com> He died in 2001 from a heart attack.. He was only 49. I heard him speak once about his non-fiction work Last Chance to See. He spoke almost as well as he wrote. Shannon Scott Schultz wrote: >Adams wrote most of the script, iirc. Looks that way. IMDB says that the screenplay is credited to Adams and someone named Karey Kirkpatrick. Sadly, it also lists Adams as Executive Producer (posthumous credit). I wasn't aware that he'd died. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From frank at exit.com Thu Feb 17 18:59:26 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:59:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050218025457.28937.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502180259.j1I2xQa0011380@realtime.exit.com> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- Shawn Burns wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Howard Brazee [mailto:howard at brazee.net] > > > And of course, it is ubiquitous. > > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? There's another thing that is ubiquitous. That and hydrogen. > RTFD. I recommend Merriam-Webster Online: http://www.m-w.com/. It is a good > dictionary and a reputable one, and unlike the Oxford English Dictionary > Online, is free. That, too. Not as, though. (Frank is grumpy because some childish little Brazilian shits "haxxored" his website. An inconvenience only, but now I have to figure out what hole they used to get in and stuff a dirty sock into it.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 17 19:00:21 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:00:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050218025457.28937.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050218025457.28937.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- Shawn Burns wrote: > > > What is a "ubiquitous" mean? > > RTFD. I hope this wasn't intended seriously. > I recommend Merriam-Webster Online: http://www.m-w.com/. It is a good > dictionary and a reputable one, and unlike the Oxford English Dictionary > Online, is free. Perhaps you mean, ubiquitously free, as the OED is free to some. Any response to your query about m-w vs the Heritage online dictionaries? From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 19:03:18 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:03:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20050218030319.23855.qmail@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Frank Mayhar wrote: > Sigh. Where _is_ Douglas Adams when you really need him? Well, for what it's worth, there is now an asteroid named for him: >>>>> One With the Universe Douglas Adams, author of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and other works of comic science fiction, has been memorialized in a fitting place, the cosmic wrecking yard known as the asteroid belt. A space rock was named after him last month. Asteroid Douglasadams was discovered in 2001 by the Lincoln Near-Earth Asteroid Research project. Alan Boyle, science editor of MSNBC, first suggested the name to the official naming agency, the Minor Planet Center, based on the rock's original designation, 2001DA42. Mr. Adams died (at 49) in 2001, his initials are D.A., and the number 42 is of great significance in the "Hitchhiker's Guide" series. If you want to know why, don't panic. Just read the books. Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/15/science/15obse.html?pagewanted=print&position= <<<<< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 17 19:04:25 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <20050218025624.53982.qmail@web52004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218025624.53982.qmail@web52004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, somebody wrote: > Scott Schultz wrote: > >Adams wrote most of the script, iirc. > > Looks that way. IMDB says that the screenplay is credited to Adams and > someone named Karey Kirkpatrick. I believe that to first order it is not possible to know who wrote a script based on the credits or any other publicly available info. From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 19:23:57 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:23:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaera vs East : Economy(was: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050218032357.77988.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Howard Brazee" > > Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship > > do they have with each other economically? --- "Jeff G." wrote: > There is mention of horse trading (and theft!) as well as peppers. Vlad buys > spices grown in the East (or so he believes), so the Easterners must trade > with their homelands as well. No mention of what the East takes as trade, we > know that diamonds do not seem to have a high value. If you are referring to the Treaty of the Pepperfields, I don't think the Easterners knew that Sandyhome had diamonds: Khaavren: "He [Crionofenarr] will surrender to the Empire certain lands some forty or fifty leagues to the north, which are held by Easterners, but are of no possible value to him, save for their location. [...] A place of shifting sand, where nothing grows except plants too stringy to eat, and nothing live save the poisonous yendi. In our tongue, we call it Sandyhome." Adron's eyes widened as he realized what the Tiassa had just proposed [...] (The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the Thirtieth, page 378 in the Tor paperback, first mass-market printing: June 1992) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 19:29:59 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:29:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050218033000.31818.qmail@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > This strikes me as very very evil - there's a phrase that has a > unique useful meaning ("making a fallacious argument by assuming the > conclusion") not easily expressed otherwise, with a long pedigree > from a phrase ("petitio principii" - "requesting the start" or something) > one sees on occasion; and there's a meaning which can be easily > expressed idiomatically otherwise ("raises the question", "suggests", > "leads to", "brings up", ...) - and people are stomping the former with > the latter. At some point we prescriptivists may have to give up on this > phrase but it will mean a loss of current expressivity and a loss of > comprehensibility of texts. BRAVO, SIR!! My hat's off to you. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 17 19:56:49 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:56:49 -0700 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <20050218030319.23855.qmail@web31008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c5156d$e0562e10$667ba8c0@Dad133> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > Mr. Adams died (at 49) in 2001, his initials are D.A., and the number > 42 is of great significance in the "Hitchhiker's Guide" series. If > you want to know why, don't panic. Just read the books. There's the radio show, the books, and the TV show. Of those three, I very much prefer the radio show. I'm thinking about ordering them from the BBC site. My son has the TV show, mainly because he's a Star Wars fan, and David Prowse has a role in it. _______________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Feb 17 20:06:11 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:06:11 +0100 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <000201c5156d$e0562e10$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: "Howard Brazee" wrote: >To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" >Subject: RE: New HHGttG trailer! >Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:56:49 -0700 > >Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > Mr. Adams died (at 49) in 2001, his initials are D.A., and the number > > 42 is of great significance in the "Hitchhiker's Guide" series. If > > you want to know why, don't panic. Just read the books. > >There's the radio show, the books, and the TV show. Of those three, I >very >much prefer the radio show. I'm thinking about ordering them from the BBC >site. I too prefer the radio show. It made me realise how MUCH the Swedish translation (of the books) sucks. /Mrtn, feeling old and bitter _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From aejoubert at hotmail.com Thu Feb 17 20:54:50 2005 From: aejoubert at hotmail.com (Andrew Joubert) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:54:50 -0600 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <200502172145.j1HLjxaa005959@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Much like the Lord of the Rings, the movie will be aimed at a more general audience than the cult of people devoted to the books, since they know the fans will go, love it or hate it. Hence, you'll get some story simplification and lose some details that will make the fans cringe. I found that the Hitchhikers series went down hill the longer it went on. One of the great joys of the books were the absurdities that were left hanging (like what the newly created pot of petunias thought as it plummeted towards the ground). When things like that were explained in the latter books they were much less satisfying than the idea that life is absurd that I got from the first couple of books. Getting back on the subject of the list, thats one of the best things I've found about the Dragerea books is that even when one question gets answered, another one shows up. Or that the series went where it needed to, even if it left some plot lines hanging. Because real life leaves some plot lines hanging. --Andrew From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 18 05:01:09 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:01:09 -0700 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c515b9$eb53adf0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Andrew Joubert wrote: > > Because real life leaves some plot lines hanging. What's worst in this is Hollywood. George Lucas explaining the force served no purpose. Occasionally they will not fully explain something extremely obvious - and a bunch of the audience gets puzzled (_True Lies_). But art leaves us wanting to experience it again - because everything wasn't fully explained the first time. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 05:26:35 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:26:35 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> Jerry Friedman wrote: >--- Jot Powers wrote: > > >> The obvious counter examples to that include jalapeno and saguaro. >> >>Although >>my favorite requires the telling of a true story that I got second hand >>from the person who experienced it first hand. >> >>This person worked for the NIH (National Institute of Health) in >>Washington, >>D.C. Now, in DC a lot of things tend to be political, and political >>correctness is rampant. There was one particular lady who was >>particularly >>militant about that, and one day she decided to browse her "Network >>Neighborhood" for reasons lost to obscurity. There she notices a >>computer >>that is named Jesus Saves. Now, working at a government agency in DC >>this offends her, so she goes to my friend to track down who owns this. >>He laughs and tells her he has other work to do, he might get to it >>eventually. >>This is not good enough for her, so she goes to his boss and causes a >>ruckus. >>Naturally, his boss comes and asks him to track it down. So he does >>(this >>requires him to determine the MAC address, track which switch it's >>connected to so that they can trace the wiring to find the office). >>They >>do this and go to the office to talk to the person. The office of Jesus >>Saves (Hay-zoos Sav-ez). >> >> > >I like it, but I don't believe it. Google has no relevant hits for >"Pablo Saves", "Roberto Saves", "Pancho Saves", or "Paco Saves". >(There are too many false positives to check "Juan Saves" [an >incident from Byron] or "Pedro Saves" [Christmas].) So I doubt very >much that "Saves" is a Spanish surname. > >By the way, since our resident native speaker of Spanish hasn't >said anything, "Hay-soos Sav-es" would be closer. Speaking of Jose, >here in New Mexico it can be hard to tell whether someone's last >name is "Marquez" or "Marcus". > > Hi, better late than never... I never think to correct an American's pronunciation of Spanish; since my childhood, I've generally discovered that it's a lost cause. I've discovered in specific instances that it isn't quite, as a few of my friends have actually attempted to learn Spanish and thus are interested in pronouncing things properly (and more importantly, know what certain things should sound like, giving them a chance to extrapolate from a small set of Spanish sounds to a larger set). This is why I never correct anyone who mispronounces my first name; by this point, I answer to Hose-A quite readily. To be fair, my Spanish-speaking relatives don't pronounce my first name properly either, but that's because by stressing the first syllable rather than the second, which is where the accent falls (and appears), my name is made into a familiar nickname. Weird, eh? Even more weird is that my middle name, Alejandro, becomes part of my first name when my parents call for me from, say, another room in the house, and it all comes out as Josealejandro, with the emphasis on the jan. The syllables end up as Josea-le-JAN-dro. When it comes to my last name, I try to get people to get that right. I've frequently used the Marquez/Marcus comparison/analogy (in the sense that they're almost analogous) to help people out; I discovered it quite early on when I went to school with a kid that had my same initials, Jonathan A. Marcus. Finally, I also liked the Jesus Saves anecdote, but my first instinct was to check the Urban Legends database to see if this was there. Sadly, I was too busy to actually follow my first instinct (so busy it took me 11 days to answer this e-mail, even if I answered it in my head within minutes of receiving it...), so I'm not positive. But it doesn't sound like a Spanish surname to me. Admittedly, this isn't the best evidence in the world... Okay, I went and tried to check, but the database I was looking doesn't seem to exist. Mmm... irony. As rone pointed out, the pronunciation you give for Jesus as a Spanish name is the one an American would use; a Spanish speaker would pronounce it Heh-SOOS (and gya wouldn't aspirate the second h in Heh, as I'm trying to approximate the flat e sound. Jos? Alejandro M?rquez -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Feb 18 05:01:19 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:01:19 -0600 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> References: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4215E71F.20801@comcast.net> Jose Marquez wrote: > > When it comes to my last name, I try to get people to get that right. > I've frequently used the Marquez/Marcus comparison/analogy (in the > sense that they're almost analogous) to help people out; I discovered > it quite early on when I went to school with a kid that had my same > initials, Jonathan A. Marcus. I used to work with an Hispanic named Bermejo. He had clearly given up on pronunciation--he answered his phone Ber-me-jo. I never could bear to call him that, even thoughit seemed contrary to his own wishes. I ran across him some time later and he thanked me for pronouncing his name correctly. Mia From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Feb 18 07:00:34 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:00:34 +0100 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <000001c515b9$eb53adf0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: "Howard Brazee" wrote: >To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" >Subject: RE: New HHGttG trailer! >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:01:09 -0700 > >Andrew Joubert wrote: > > > > > Because real life leaves some plot lines hanging. > >What's worst in this is Hollywood. George Lucas explaining the force >served no purpose. > Especially as he explained it twice, and the second explanation contradict the first... /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Feb 18 07:17:30 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:17:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: References: <20050218025624.53982.qmail@web52004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Philip Hart wrote: @> > >Adams wrote most of the script, iirc. @> > @> > Looks that way. IMDB says that the screenplay is credited to Adams and @> > someone named Karey Kirkpatrick. @> @> I believe that to first order it is not possible to know who wrote a @> script based on the credits or any other publicly available info. Well, not only that, but it's irrelevant, since directors tend to change anything and everything they want anyway. And studios meddle with it. And actors change things, too. And then it gets edited. And then re-edited so it can be PG-13. From scs at di.org Fri Feb 18 07:28:41 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:28:41 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> References: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050218152841.GA25096@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 08:26:35AM -0500, Jose Marquez wrote: > Hi, better late than never... > > I never think to correct an American's pronunciation of Spanish; since > my childhood, I've generally discovered that it's a lost cause . . . While I agree with Joses note as a whole, I do want to point out that populations tend to grab foreign place names and make them their own. Thus we have Versailles (ver-SALES) Indiana, Milan (MI-lan) Michigan, Amarillo (AM-uh-RILL-o) Texas, and Canton (CAN-tun) Michigan. I don't know about Amarillo, but the other three were based on locals picking names of places they're read of, but not heard pronounced. Four languages, four horrid pronunciations (Canton MI is after Canton China, not the political subdivisions of Switzerland). Even tho I'm from Indiana, I'd never heard how the locals pronounce Versailles. When I got there for a visit and used the anglicized French pronunciation, they angrily corrected me. Ditto a Texan correcting me firmly on how Amarillo TX is said. This isn't strictly an American thing; I vaguely recall bumping into English words and place-names that have been Spanish-ized or Japanese-ized. It's been my experience that most folks do try to pronounce names correctly -- but sometimes folks names are so butchered by non-native speakers that they've given up on us round-eyes ever getting it right. One co-workers native language was (if I recall correctly) a nine-toned Chinese dialect. Without proper tones, a pronunciation that sounded very close to Western ears was horribly horribly off to her ears. One or two of us did manage to get it right if we concentrated and essentially sang her name. But we couldn't use it in a sentence because English use of tone conflicted with the requirements of her name, and we either wound up with sentences that jarred horribly to other Westerners or we got her name wrong yet again. After that experience, I settled on calling persons the name they asked me to, and pronouncing place names as the locals do. But if someone offers me the opportunity to be courteous and pronounce their name correctly, I take it with enthusiasm. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From louann at millerdome.com Fri Feb 18 07:33:56 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:33:56 -0600 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218152841.GA25096@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050218093226.017d6520@mail07.powweb.com> At 10:28 AM 2/18/2005 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: >While I agree with Joses note as a whole, I do want to point out that >populations tend to grab foreign place names and make them their own. >Thus we have Versailles (ver-SALES) Indiana, Milan (MI-lan) Michigan, >Amarillo (AM-uh-RILL-o) Texas, and Canton (CAN-tun) Michigan. I don't >know about Amarillo, but the other three were based on locals picking >names of places they're read of, but not heard pronounced. Four languages, >four horrid pronunciations (Canton MI is after Canton China, not the >political subdivisions of Switzerland). Don't forget PAL-us-teen Texas (spelled Palestine) and the battle of San Jacinto, with a J. Although the latter may be justified on the grounds that whoever wins the battle gets to name it. Louann, with some exposure to Spanglish. From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 18 07:45:14 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:45:14 -0500 Subject: Ubiquitous Message-ID: <2340914F.69A6428D.00184D6D@aol.com> >On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:32 EST, wrote: > >> In a message dated 02/17/2005 3:35:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> s1burns at ucsd.edu writes: >> We are an hilarious group of people, although some of us are funnier than >> others. >> yeah, looking. ha,ha,ha,ha. i couldn't resist a little childish glee. >> >> John D. Barbato, OD > > You think your so funny, but your face beat ya to it :o) -C From casey at the-bat.net Fri Feb 18 07:48:11 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:48:11 -0500 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrew Joubert wrote: > I found that the Hitchhikers series went down hill the longer > it went on. One of the great joys of the books were the > absurdities that were left hanging (like what the newly > created pot of petunias thought as it plummeted towards the > ground). When things like that were explained in the latter > books they were much less satisfying than the idea that life > is absurd that I got from the first couple of books. I enjoyed them all thoroughly. The best way to describe them for me would be as unillustrated comic books. Or rather comic books illustrated only with word pictures. Amazing work really. I heard bits of the radio series first; the books were every bit as satisfying. > Getting back on the subject of the list, thats one of the > best things I've found about the Dragerea books is that even > when one question gets answered, another one shows up. Or > that the series went where it needed to, ... As to that, certainly the HHG series went to some fairly strange places, but that was half the fun. Don't forget, this is a series in which the Earth is destroyed in the first act of the first novel. > ...even if it left some plot lines hanging. > > Because real life leaves some plot lines hanging. If you haven't read Salmon of Doubt, it's worth picking up, even if you ignore the unfinished manuscript (what better evidence of your claim?). The commentary from his friends and collaborators is hilarious. Casey From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 18 07:52:41 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:52:41 -0500 Subject: maps (was RE: Time and longitude) Message-ID: <4313BD78.637F5939.00184D6D@aol.com> I love the map, but the only problem I have with it is that it seems Elde Islad (sorry AFB, the bannaa shapped island) is a little too close to the main land. It could be that I wasn't looking good enough at it, but that's just what I think. Has anyone tried mapping any portion of Adrilahnka? -C From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Feb 18 08:14:08 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:14:08 +0100 Subject: maps (was RE: Time and longitude) In-Reply-To: <4313BD78.637F5939.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: maps (was RE: Time and longitude) >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:52:41 -0500 > >I love the map, but the only problem I have with it is that it seems Elde >Islad (sorry AFB, the bannaa shapped island) is a little too close to the >main land. It could be that I wasn't looking good enough at it, but that's >just what I think. >Has anyone tried mapping any portion of Adrilahnka? >-C Didn't it take days to sail there in Phoenix? _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 18 08:22:45 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:22:45 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/18/2005 8:01:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: > >I used to work with an Hispanic named Bermejo. ?He had clearly given up >on pronunciation--he answered his phone Ber-me-jo. ?I never could bear >to call him that, even thoughit seemed contrary to his own wishes. ?I >ran across him some time later and he thanked me for pronouncing his >name correctly. > >Mia > My Brazillian friend's name is Bruno. He asked me why everyone says his name wrong. He pronounces it as brunu with more emphasis (sp) on the first "u" and almost inaudiable on the second "u". I told him that that's just how we say things in English. The "o" to us is pronounced as a long "o" like in dog, as opposed to like a "oo" or "ew" at the end of new (I think I have all that right). Then there's his origianl last name, but I won't go into that. -C > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 18 08:27:20 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:27:20 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/18/2005 10:33:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Louann Miller writes: >At 10:28 AM 2/18/2005 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: >>While I agree with Joses note as a whole, I do want to point out that >>populations tend to grab foreign place names and make them their own. >>Thus we have Versailles (ver-SALES) Indiana, Milan (MI-lan) Michigan, >>Amarillo (AM-uh-RILL-o) Texas, and Canton (CAN-tun) Michigan. ?I don't >>know about Amarillo, but the other three were based on locals picking >>names of places they're read of, but not heard pronounced. ?Four languages, >>four horrid pronunciations (Canton MI is after Canton China, not the >>political subdivisions of Switzerland). > >Don't forget PAL-us-teen Texas (spelled Palestine) and the battle of San >Jacinto, with a J. Although the latter may be justified on the grounds that >whoever wins the battle gets to name it. > >Louann, with some exposure to Spanglish. > > And there's places like Woosta (figure out how that's really spelled... Mass people should be able to get this one). -C > From scs at di.org Fri Feb 18 08:29:13 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:29:13 -0500 Subject: Ubiquitous In-Reply-To: <2340914F.69A6428D.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <2340914F.69A6428D.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050218162913.GB25307@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:45:14AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:32 EST, wrote: > > > In a message dated 02/17/2005 3:35:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > s1burns at ucsd.edu writes: > > > We are an hilarious group of people, although some of us are funnier > > > than others. > > > yeah, looking. ha,ha,ha,ha. i couldn't resist a little childish glee. > You think your so funny, but your face beat ya to it :o) My face can beat up your face. Somehow this discussion makes my .sigfile more wistful. :-P -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From casey at the-bat.net Fri Feb 18 08:52:24 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:52:24 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] > And there's places like Woosta (figure out how that's really > spelled... Mass people should be able to get this one). It's spelled phonetically. For certain, strange values of phonetic :) Think sauces that you might use to disguise the flavor of meat. -Casey, who thinks that if you can't eat a steak with simple salt and pepper, there's something wrong with the meat or the way you cooked it. From scs at di.org Fri Feb 18 08:57:03 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:57:03 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 11:22:45AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > My Brazillian friend's name is Bruno. He asked me why everyone says his > name wrong. He pronounces it as brunu with more emphasis (sp) on the > first "u" and almost inaudiable on the second "u". I told him that that's > just how we say things in English. The "o" to us is pronounced as a long > "o" like in dog. . . (Alert! The following is a joke! Alert, the following is a joke!) His problem is that he's spelling it in Brazilian, not English. (The joke is now complete. Please re-engage your serious discussion.) I've said as much to one of the Brazilians here, Goncalo (which he pronounces roughly 'con-SAH-lo'). It's a good point. Every language that uses this alphabet has the same problem -- we don't use exactly the same consonants and vowels for each letter, and sometimes use wildly different ones. A Texan and a Mexican are both equally accurate when they say that Amarillo should be pronounced the way it's spelled. Its just that sometimes it's spelled in english and sometimes in spanish. God only knows what it would sound like if spelled in French. :-) And for the couple of folks who asked how Amarillo is pronounced: Texas: am-uh-RILL-o (that an English LL) Mexico: ah-mah-REE-yo (that's an Enlish y, ie, a Spanish j) Note the M appears in differ syllables, aside from the other differences. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:02:58 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:02:58 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic References: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:27 AM Subject: Re: evolution in language: OT.now on topic > In a message dated 2/18/2005 10:33:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, Louann Miller writes: > > >At 10:28 AM 2/18/2005 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > >>While I agree with Joses note as a whole, I do want to point out that > >>populations tend to grab foreign place names and make them their own. > >>Thus we have Versailles (ver-SALES) Indiana, Milan (MI-lan) Michigan, > >>Amarillo (AM-uh-RILL-o) Texas, and Canton (CAN-tun) Michigan. I don't > >>know about Amarillo, but the other three were based on locals picking > >>names of places they're read of, but not heard pronounced. Four languages, > >>four horrid pronunciations (Canton MI is after Canton China, not the > >>political subdivisions of Switzerland). > > > >Don't forget PAL-us-teen Texas (spelled Palestine) and the battle of San > >Jacinto, with a J. Although the latter may be justified on the grounds that > >whoever wins the battle gets to name it. > > > >Louann, with some exposure to Spanglish. > > > > > And there's places like Woosta (figure out how that's really spelled... Mass people should be able to get this one). > -C > > > I lived in Meeuwen for four years, pronounced "may-win". Crazy Belgians. Jeff From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Feb 18 09:06:49 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:06:49 -0800 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <1108746409.2785.76.camel@localhost> "The spell it 'Vinci' and pronounce it 'Vinchy.' Foreigners always spell better than they pronounce." -- Twain From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 18 09:09:38 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:09:38 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at di.org] > > Texas: am-uh-RILL-o (that an English LL) > Mexico: ah-mah-REE-yo (that's an Enlish y, ie, a Spanish j) > I believe you mean (at least based on the way I learned it so many years ago) that it's a Spanish ll (which is pronounced like an English y). Of course, I haven't spoken or read Spanish in so long I may have gotten confused. From gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com Fri Feb 18 09:15:23 2005 From: gbrandt at Tampabayfederal.com (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:15:23 -0500 Subject: Steak, was RE: evolution in language: OT.now on topic, but still pretty OT Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at the-bat.net] > > It's spelled phonetically. For certain, strange values of phonetic :) > > Think sauces that you might use to disguise the flavor of meat. > > -Casey, who thinks that if you can't eat a steak with simple salt and > pepper, there's something wrong with the meat or the way you cooked it. Amen. My wife is one of those misguided people that puts ketchup on anything containing beef. Drives me crazy. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 09:16:12 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:16:12 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 11:22:45AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > >>My Brazillian friend's name is Bruno. He asked me why everyone says his >>name wrong. He pronounces it as brunu with more emphasis (sp) on the >>first "u" and almost inaudiable on the second "u". I told him that that's >>just how we say things in English. The "o" to us is pronounced as a long >>"o" like in dog. . . >> >> >I've said as much to one of the Brazilians here, Goncalo (which he >pronounces roughly 'con-SAH-lo'). > > He probably spells it using the c with the little squiggly line used in Portuguese and French. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedilla for details. In Spanish, his name would be Gonzalo, 'cause the z more or less replaced the squiggly c. As an aside, is there an official name for this letter? I associate it mentally with the word/language proven?al, and so I call it that in my head. *blushes* Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 09:20:25 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:20:25 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <200502180853.1d2bno2NB3NZFpO0@mx-a065b19.pas.sa.earthlink.net> References: <200502180853.1d2bno2NB3NZFpO0@mx-a065b19.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <421623D9.9050108@earthlink.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: >MedCat7 at aol.com [mailto:MedCat7 at aol.com] > > >>And there's places like Woosta (figure out how that's really >>spelled... Mass people should be able to get this one). >> >> > >It's spelled phonetically. For certain, strange values of phonetic :) > >Think sauces that you might use to disguise the flavor of meat. > > You mean enhance, of course. In small doses. Along with lots of minced garlic and little bits of onion. >-Casey, who thinks that if you can't eat a steak with simple salt and >pepper, there's something wrong with the meat or the way you cooked it. > While in Miami for a month (Christmas + my brother's wedding), we had Argentinian churrasco every other day during a crazy week of last-minute wedding planning. All you need is plenty of skirt steak, kosher salt, and a grill; instant dinner, just add salad. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 09:25:04 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> References: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > He probably spells it using the c with the little squiggly line used in > Portuguese and French. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedilla for > details. In Spanish, his name would be Gonzalo, 'cause the z more or > less replaced the squiggly c. As an aside, is there an official name for > this letter? I associate it mentally with the word/language proven?al, > and so I call it that in my head. *blushes* What's wrong with "cedilla", except that we pronounce one "l"? Re "z", "cedilla" actually comes from "ceda" which comes from "zed" which means... Amusingly, the English words I know with a cedilla come from French. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 09:32:51 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:32:51 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <421626C3.2020607@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > >>He probably spells it using the c with the little squiggly line used in >>Portuguese and French. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedilla for >>details. In Spanish, his name would be Gonzalo, 'cause the z more or >>less replaced the squiggly c. As an aside, is there an official name for >>this letter? I associate it mentally with the word/language proven?al, >>and so I call it that in my head. *blushes* >> >> >What's wrong with "cedilla", except that we pronounce one "l"? > > Nothing; but since I'm just a linguistic hobbyist, I'd like confirmation >from the real linguists in the list. The wikipedia article didn't make it explicit enough for me. >Re "z", "cedilla" actually comes from "ceda" which comes from "zed" which >means... > >Amusingly, the English words I know with a cedilla come from French. > > Which words are those? Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 09:45:34 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:45:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <421626C3.2020607@earthlink.net> References: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> <421626C3.2020607@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >What's wrong with "cedilla", except that we pronounce one "l"? > > > > > Nothing; but since I'm just a linguistic hobbyist, I'd like confirmation > from the real linguists in the list. The wikipedia article didn't make > it explicit enough for me. I don't know what the fancy educated people use, but you'll find "cedilla" in your American Heritage dictionary. > >Amusingly, the English words I know with a cedilla come from French. "Facade" comes to mind - that's also an acceptable spelling. Or you might add a soup?on of butter, though I always use more than that. The French call the creature in question a "cedille", which is also the name of a cool classical cd label: http://www.cedillerecords.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Feb 18 09:48:58 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:48:58 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <1108746409.2785.76.camel@localhost> References: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> <1108746409.2785.76.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <42162A8A.6030008@email.ers.usda.gov> Steve Brust wrote: > "The spell it 'Vinci' and pronounce it 'Vinchy.' Foreigners always >spell better than they pronounce." -- Twain > > > > "I'd rather decline 2 German beers than 1 German noun." -- also Twain Snarkhunter From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 09:50:19 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:50:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaera vs East : Economy(was: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050218032357.77988.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050218175019.24678.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> > > Do Dragaera and the East compete economically? What kind of relationship > > do they have with each other economically? --- "Jeff G." wrote: > There is mention of horse trading (and theft!) as well as peppers. Vlad buys > spices grown in the East (or so he believes), so the Easterners must trade > with their homelands as well. No mention of what the East takes as trade, we > know that diamonds do not seem to have a high value. See page 390 in the Book of Jhereg From scs at di.org Fri Feb 18 10:03:53 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:03:53 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> References: <39C7A186.6DE4072F.00184D6D@aol.com> <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <421622DC.1060502@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050218180353.GA25450@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:16:12PM -0500, Jose Marquez wrote: > He probably spells it using the c with the little squiggly line used in > Portuguese and French. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedilla. . . Exactly so - he added the cedilla to the nameplate outside his office. I don't recall the name of the resulting letter or even if it has a separate name; heck, I couldn't remember 'cedilla' until you pointed it out. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From scs at di.org Fri Feb 18 10:07:50 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:07:50 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <42162A8A.6030008@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> <1108746409.2785.76.camel@localhost> <42162A8A.6030008@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20050218180750.GB25450@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:48:58PM -0500, Ken Koester wrote: > "I'd rather decline 2 German beers than 1 German noun." -- also Twain I'd rather not decline either of them. Especially at at 2 to 1 ratio. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 18 10:42:24 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:42:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: New HHGttG trailer! Message-ID: <200502181842.j1IIgOam022766@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Frank Mayhar wrote: > Too late. > > From the trailer, it appears to have only a passing resemblance to the books. > I can handle a black Ford, no problem, but Zaphod has only one head and > I heard Trillian screaming for Arthur. As in "for rescue." Um, no. > > Sigh. Where _is_ Douglas Adams when you really need him? Before passing *too* much judgement, you might want to read the scriptwriter's self-interview at the movie's main site. I was very worried before reading it, and afterward I'm more intrigued. (No, I *don't* expect it to be as good as the books. As if one ever could...:) Chris (Who can only watch adaptations on the assumption that they're a different take on the story, else have a hissy-cow.;) From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Feb 18 10:43:23 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:43:23 -0500 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <20050218154903.LHAX1142.fed1rmgxi11.cox.net@dd-b.net> References: <20050218154903.LHAX1142.fed1rmgxi11.cox.net@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218134055.034c5c60@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:48 02/18/2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Getting back on the subject of the list, thats one of the > > best things I've found about the Dragerea books is that even > > when one question gets answered, another one shows up. Or > > that the series went where it needed to, ... > >As to that, certainly the HHG series went to some fairly strange places, but >that was half the fun. Don't forget, this is a series in which the Earth is >destroyed in the first act of the first novel. Was it? I haven't seen the TV or heard the radio versions, but as I remember, Arthur Dent returned to Earth, which wasn't destroyed until the follow-on novel _So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish_. Do I misremember? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Feb 18 10:46:01 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:46:01 +0100 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218134055.034c5c60@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: >To: "Casey Rousseau" , >Subject: RE: New HHGttG trailer! >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:43:23 -0500 > >At 10:48 02/18/2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: >> > Getting back on the subject of the list, thats one of the >> > best things I've found about the Dragerea books is that even >> > when one question gets answered, another one shows up. Or >> > that the series went where it needed to, ... >> >>As to that, certainly the HHG series went to some fairly strange places, >>but >>that was half the fun. Don't forget, this is a series in which the Earth >>is >>destroyed in the first act of the first novel. > >Was it? I haven't seen the TV or heard the radio versions, but as I >remember, Arthur Dent returned to Earth, which wasn't destroyed until the >follow-on novel _So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish_. Do I misremember? > Yes, you do. He returned to a Earth that should have been destroyed, but wasn't. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From casey at the-bat.net Fri Feb 18 10:59:36 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:59:36 -0500 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218134055.034c5c60@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 10:48 02/18/2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: > >As to that, certainly the HHG series went to some fairly > >strange places, but that was half the fun. Don't forget, > >this is a series in which the Earth is destroyed in the > >first act of the first novel. > > Was it? I haven't seen the TV or heard the radio versions, > but as I remember, Arthur Dent returned to Earth, which > wasn't destroyed until the follow-on novel _So Long, and > Thanks for all the Fish_. Do I misremember? Well, the chronology had gotten more than a bit tangled by that stage. Or, as _Mostly Harmless_, "the amazing, logic-defying, but-why-stop-now fifth novel in the Hitchhiker Trilogy" opens: "The history of the Galaxy has got a little muddled, for a number of reasons: partly because those who are trying to keep track of it have got a little muddled, but also because some very muddling things have been happening anyway." Casey From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:26:22 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:26:22 -0700 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Casey Rousseau" To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:59 AM Subject: RE: New HHGttG trailer! > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > At 10:48 02/18/2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > >As to that, certainly the HHG series went to some fairly > > >strange places, but that was half the fun. Don't forget, > > >this is a series in which the Earth is destroyed in the > > >first act of the first novel. > > > > Was it? I haven't seen the TV or heard the radio versions, > > but as I remember, Arthur Dent returned to Earth, which > > wasn't destroyed until the follow-on novel _So Long, and > > Thanks for all the Fish_. Do I misremember? > > Well, the chronology had gotten more than a bit tangled by that stage. Or, > as _Mostly Harmless_, "the amazing, logic-defying, but-why-stop-now fifth > novel in the Hitchhiker Trilogy" opens: > > "The history of the Galaxy has got a little muddled, for a number of > reasons: partly because those who are trying to keep track of it have got a > little muddled, but also because some very muddling things have been > happening anyway." > > Casey > > Probably one to many Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters. Although I have heard that one IS too many. . . . . Jeff merrily bashing his head in with a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Feb 18 11:48:19 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:48:19 -0800 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050218134055.034c5c60@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <318601c515f2$cbc45dc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Was it? I haven't seen the TV or heard the radio versions, but as I >remember, Arthur Dent returned to Earth, which wasn't destroyed until the >follow-on novel _So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish_. Do I misremember? You misremember. _So Long_ features the rescue of the Earth by the dolphins' Save the Humans movement. They alter the time/space stream and more or less pull a duplicate Earth out of an alternate possible reality. (Technically this means that it isn't Earth at all but some nearly identical mirror of it, but who's quibbling?) While much of the series got rather flaky at the end, I did enjoy the idea of the psychiatrist who built his house inside out so that he could metaphorically put the world into a "hospital" to be treated for its delusions that everything was normal. From louann at millerdome.com Fri Feb 18 11:56:12 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:56:12 -0600 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050218135503.017f3460@mail07.powweb.com> At 10:02 AM 2/18/2005 -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > >Don't forget PAL-us-teen Texas (spelled Palestine) and the battle of San > > >Jacinto, with a J. Although the latter may be justified on the grounds >that > > >whoever wins the battle gets to name it. > > > > > >Louann, with some exposure to Spanglish. > > > > > > > > And there's places like Woosta (figure out how that's really spelled... >Mass people should be able to get this one). > >I lived in Meeuwen for four years, pronounced "may-win". Crazy Belgians. I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. (If it helps, it's an American Indian language being mangled rather than Spanish.) From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 18 12:06:25 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:06:25 -0800 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050218200630.BYCN13353.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at di.org] > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 8:57 AM > To: MedCat7 at aol.com > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: evolution in language: OT.now on topic > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 11:22:45AM -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > > > My Brazillian friend's name is Bruno. He asked me why everyone says > > his name wrong. He pronounces it as brunu with more > emphasis (sp) on > > the first "u" and almost inaudiable on the second "u". I > told him that > > that's just how we say things in English. The "o" to us is > pronounced > > as a long "o" like in dog. . . > > (Alert! The following is a joke! Alert, the following is a joke!) > > His problem is that he's spelling it in Brazilian, not English. > > (The joke is now complete. Please re-engage your serious discussion.) > > I've said as much to one of the Brazilians here, Goncalo > (which he pronounces roughly 'con-SAH-lo'). > > It's a good point. Every language that uses this alphabet > has the same problem -- we don't use exactly the same > consonants and vowels for each letter, and sometimes use > wildly different ones. A Texan and a Mexican are both > equally accurate when they say that Amarillo should be > pronounced the way it's spelled. Its just that sometimes > it's spelled in english and sometimes in spanish. God only > knows what it would sound like if spelled in French. :-) > > And for the couple of folks who asked how Amarillo is pronounced: > > Texas: am-uh-RILL-o (that an English LL) > Mexico: ah-mah-REE-yo (that's an Enlish y, ie, a Spanish j) It was really hard to think of that word in French, but here's an attempt: Ah-ma-REE-lo From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 12:08:17 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:08:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050218135503.017f3460@mail07.powweb.com> References: <76056512.4F799E94.00184D6D@aol.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050218135503.017f3460@mail07.powweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Louann Miller wrote: > I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. What "The Battle of Barrit's Tomb" sounds like to Easterners, "Waxahachie" sounds like to particle physicists. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 18 12:16:02 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:16:02 -0800 Subject: Brava In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050218201607.SKUR17351.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:08 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: evolution in language: OT.now on topic > > > > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Louann Miller wrote: > > > I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. > > What "The Battle of Barrit's Tomb" sounds like to Easterners, > "Waxahachie" sounds like to particle physicists. > That was awesome. I don't know what you just said, but I had a pure art moment when I read it. Thanks. Shawn From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Feb 18 12:32:55 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:32:55 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <18D6E303.61753768.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/18/2005 12:16:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose Marquez writes: >> >He probably spells it using the c with the little squiggly line used in >Portuguese and French. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedilla for >details. In Spanish, his name would be Gonzalo, 'cause the z more or >less replaced the squiggly c. As an aside, is there an official name for >this letter? I associate it mentally with the word/language proven?al, >and so I call it that in my head. *blushes* > >Jose > I was thinking of the "squiggly c," that was the other thing I didn't want to get into! -C From shannon3d at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 12:39:51 2005 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <20050218203951.16913.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> > I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. (If it helps, it's an > American Indian language being mangled rather than Spanish.) Oh! Oh! Pick me! Pick me! Of course, not only do I live within an hour of Waxahachie but I also grew up in Oklahoma. I'll see your Waxahachie and raise you a Pushmataha and an Oologah (both spelled almost phonetically actually). On a more serious note, I had a(an?) Hungarian friend visit me with her child Dani. I had always pronounced it DAN-ee, but she informed me it is pronounce DAH-nee. Her second child will be named Able. Don't be fooled by the common name. It's pronounced ah-BEL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 12:50:41 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:50:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Brava In-Reply-To: <20050218201607.SKUR17351.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050218201607.SKUR17351.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Louann Miller wrote: > > > > > I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. > > > > What "The Battle of Barrit's Tomb" sounds like to Easterners, > > "Waxahachie" sounds like to particle physicists. > > That was awesome. I don't know what you just said, but I had a pure art > moment when I read it. Thanks, but "brava" is for the fat soprano at the end of the opera, not the virile bass-baritone (for whom "bravo" is apropos). The reference was to the death of the Superconducting Supercollider, parts of which are buried forever beneath the sands of Waxahachie. From frank at exit.com Fri Feb 18 13:05:35 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Brava In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502182105.j1IL5ZlX061258@realtime.exit.com> Philip Hart wrote: > The reference was to the death of the Superconducting Supercollider, > parts of which are buried forever beneath the sands of Waxahachie. "Beneath the sands of Waxahachie." Wait, "sands?" -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 13:10:28 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:10:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Brava In-Reply-To: <200502182105.j1IL5ZlX061258@realtime.exit.com> References: <200502182105.j1IL5ZlX061258@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > The reference was to the death of the Superconducting Supercollider, > > parts of which are buried forever beneath the sands of Waxahachie. > > "Beneath the sands of Waxahachie." > > Wait, "sands?" There wasn't space in the second line of the couplet for "cacti and scorpions." From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 18 13:20:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:20:27 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218152841.GA25096@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20050208003540.92414.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> <4215ED0B.706@earthlink.net> <20050218152841.GA25096@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:28:41 -0500, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Even tho I'm from Indiana, I'd never heard how the locals pronounce > Versailles. When I got there for a visit and used the anglicized French > pronunciation, they angrily corrected me. Ditto a Texan correcting me > firmly on how Amarillo TX is said. An odd one is that the pronunciation city of Pueblo, Colorado is becoming more "Spanish" over time - the pronunciation that its residents used to use is dying out. The town of Nevada, IA is pronounced neither like the state nor like the Spanish word (what would you name a state that is known for being covered with desert?) -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From scs at di.org Fri Feb 18 13:23:22 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:23:22 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218200630.BYCN13353.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050218165703.GA25387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20050218200630.BYCN13353.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <20050218212322.GA26450@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:06:25PM -0800, Shawn Burns wrote: > > And for the couple of folks who asked how Amarillo is pronounced: > > > > Texas: am-uh-RILL-o (that an English LL) > > Mexico: ah-mah-REE-yo (that's an Enlish y, ie, a Spanish j) > > It was really hard to think of that word in French, but here's an attempt: > > Ah-ma-REE-lo Oh yeah, that hurts. -- We were discussing how much illumination the various blinking lights in the computer room emit: He: It just keeps getting brighter in there. Me: If only we did, too. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 18 13:23:10 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:23:10 -0700 Subject: New HHGttG trailer! Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:48:11 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > I enjoyed them all thoroughly. The best way to describe them for me > would > be as unillustrated comic books. Or rather comic books illustrated only > with word pictures. Amazing work really. I heard bits of the radio > series > first; the books were every bit as satisfying. Speaking of which - movies sometimes hurt sales of comics. For instance sales of the book _League of Extraordinary Gentlemen_ was brisk for quite some time until the movie came out - then dropped through the floor. Of course the illustrated work was highly regarded, while the movie could have striven for mediocrity. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 18 13:37:24 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:24 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Texas: am-uh-RILL-o (that an English LL) > Mexico: ah-mah-REE-yo (that's an Enlish y, ie, a Spanish j) In the U.S., westerners pronounce "rodeo" in English - but Easterners pronounce it closer to Spanish. Odd. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 18 13:38:12 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:38:12 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:09:38 -0500, Grady Brandt wrote: It's hard for me to say "mango" in English, having learned to pronounce it in Spanish first. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 13:48:30 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:48:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > It's hard for me to say "mango" in English, having learned to pronounce it > in Spanish first. I've gotten into fights over "endive". From bryann at bryann.net Fri Feb 18 16:10:34 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:10:34 -0600 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218152841.GA25096@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <200502190010.j1J0AK1r012581@bryann.net> > > I never think to correct an American's pronunciation of > Spanish; since > > my childhood, I've generally discovered that it's a lost cause . . . > > While I agree with Joses note as a whole, I do want to point > out that populations tend to grab foreign place names and > make them their own. Not directly related, but I live in Arkansas (ArkanSAW). My roommate in college was from Kansas (KanSAS), and he consistently referred to the river that flows through my state as the ArkanSAS River. He also referred to my state as ArkanSAS but I'm pretty sure that much at least was a joke. Both of us were native English speakers who lived within a few hundred miles of each other, and we still couldn't agree on the pronunciation. Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Fri Feb 18 16:18:28 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:18:28 -0600 Subject: maps (was RE: Time and longitude) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502190018.j1J0IF1r012663@bryann.net> > >I love the map, but the only problem I have with it is that it seems > >Elde Islad (sorry AFB, the bannaa shapped island) is a > little too close > >to the main land. It could be that I wasn't looking good > enough at it, > >but that's just what I think. > >Has anyone tried mapping any portion of Adrilahnka? > >-C > > Didn't it take days to sail there in Phoenix? Yes, but they sailed from Northport, which is quite a bit to the north. Book of Taltos, pg 185 - "There is an island to the west of the Empire. It's called Greenaere. / I know of it. Between Northport and Elde, right?" Book of Taltos, pg 190-196 - "[Northport] ought to have been called Westport ... there were ... ships that left for Elde or returned from there, as well as a few that went up and down the coast. Of the ships leaving for Elde, many stopped at Greenaere, which was more or less on the way, taking tides and wind into account ... We weighed anchor just before dusk ... the wind was in my face the next morning ... night collapsed the sea ... around noon of the following day we spotted land." Book of Taltos, pg 260 - "If you looked at a map of the Empire, the notion of a war with Greenaere would seem laughable--this huge monster of a landmass next to a little splotch shaped like a banana." Lord of Castle Black, pg 213 - "[Elde Island] can be found some twenty-five miles off the coast to the southwest" I may have put it too close to the coast, that was just my best guess for how to fit it in to the above quotes. The two that influenced me the most were that the empire was "next to a little splotch" and that Greenaera was "more or less on the way" from Northport to Elde. Bryan From louann at millerdome.com Fri Feb 18 16:51:02 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:51:02 -0600 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <7A74266E.3D2A9AC0.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050218185030.017f2e90@mail07.powweb.com> At 03:37 PM 2/18/2005 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Louann >Miller writes: > > > >I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. (If it helps, it's an > >American Indian language being mangled rather than Spanish.) > > > > >fonix ;o)here: Wasahachie? Woks a HAT chee. I don't know why. From louann at millerdome.com Fri Feb 18 16:47:16 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:47:16 -0600 Subject: Brava In-Reply-To: <200502182105.j1IL5ZlX061258@realtime.exit.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050218184626.017ddb30@mail07.powweb.com> At 01:05 PM 2/18/2005 -0800, Frank Mayhar wrote: >Philip Hart wrote: > > The reference was to the death of the Superconducting Supercollider, > > parts of which are buried forever beneath the sands of Waxahachie. > >"Beneath the sands of Waxahachie." > >Wait, "sands?" Thick black expansion clay soil, mostly, the bane of slab foundations. Or limestone in places. From frank at exit.com Fri Feb 18 17:09:45 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050218185030.017f2e90@mail07.powweb.com> Message-ID: <200502190109.j1J19kB5064602@realtime.exit.com> Louann Miller wrote: > At 03:37 PM 2/18/2005 -0500, MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Louann > >Miller writes: > > > > > >I now live in Waxahachie. Say that, I dare you. (If it helps, it's an > > >American Indian language being mangled rather than Spanish.) > > > > > > > >fonix ;o)here: Wasahachie? > > Woks a HAT chee. I don't know why. Same reason as "Nacogdoches" (Nack ah doe chez) and "Nachitoches" (Nack ah tush). Those folks were getting an early start on being Texans, I guess. (Yes, I _know_ Natchitoches is in Lousy Anna. Deal.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From ginni.berger at juno.com Fri Feb 18 13:18:19 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:18:19 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <20050218.212334.3912.10.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) "Mark A. Mandel" writes: > > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > Anyway, everybody in the world ought to speak English. It's an > **easy**, > > flexible language with a great children's literature. > > > I refuse to respond to trolling. I refuse to respond to trolling. I > refuse to > respond to trolling. > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > Oh, *please* do so; I'd enjoy reading your response, speaking as someone who's interested in etymology. ;-) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal, who actually *owns* the tshirt saying, "English doesn't borrow from other languages, it follows them down dark alley, mugs them and goes through their pockets for loose grammar" From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 18:26:48 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:26:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaera vs East : Economy(was: Re: Defender always wins? (Was: Re: on contradictions and s In-Reply-To: <20050218175019.24678.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050219022648.12700.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- S SHafer wrote: > --- "Jeff G." wrote: > > There is mention of horse trading (and theft!) as well as peppers. Vlad > buys > > spices grown in the East (or so he believes), so the Easterners must trade > > with their homelands as well. No mention of what the East takes as trade, > we > > know that diamonds do not seem to have a high value. > > See page 390 in the Book of Jhereg For those of us who do not possess copies of the Book of Jhereg, that would be the first page of Chapter 8 of Teckla, according to the Table of Contents summary at http://cracksandshards.com/contentsV.html#Teckla on my web site (Book of Jhereg pagination courtesy of Thomas Yan). -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:22:59 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:22:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <1107307215.2781.3.camel@ip68-104-104-170.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050219032259.72998.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Steve Brust wrote: > > > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > One judges the changes according to whether, in one's opinion, they make > the language more flexible, elegant, and capable of making fine > distinctions. If there is a change that is coming into vogue that one > doesn't care for, one avoids that usage, and perhaps even argues against > it. This is almost always a losing battle, but generally worth fighting > anyway. In that dimension I have a split personality (schizoid-- figuratively, not clinically -- not schizophrenic), between my descriptivist training and prescriptivist leanings. I try to keep these two halves from strangling each other :-), partly by personifying the prescriptivist as Dr. Whom. But I am continually (not continuously) reading with an imaginary or real pen or pencil in hand, marking up the text and putting comments or corrections in the margins. I am a descriptivist in that I'm interested in and attentive to the way people speak and write, and I consider new forms and changes to be worthy of linguistic attention, as well as often been valuable in the life of the language and the society. I am a prescriptivist in that I firmly believe that some usages, definitions, spellings, and so on are superior to others, either absolutely ("millennium": two L's, two N's*) or in terms of a particular meaning[1], register[2], etc. 1. I remember a time when two close friends of mine had a virulent falling-out and spoke to me separately about it. I listened sympathetically to both, and to each one I explained that I was very fond of them both and could not take sides in their dispute, but I would, if they liked, suggest a way in which they might deal with some of the consequences of their disagreement. I cared for both of them, so I certainly was not UNINTERESTED in their dispute, but I was able to be a DISINTERESTED adviser. 2. Literally while I was dictating** the preceding paragraph, my wife passed through the room and paused to tell me of an entertaining interview with the actor Will Smith that she had heard on Fresh Air. His mother and grandmother, one a teacher and the other also a school system employee, had been quite strict about his use of English, e.g., grounding him for the afternoon when he said "y'all" instead of "you": he was not to speak like the kids on the street! And, he went on to explain, while he resented it at the time, he very much appreciated it as he grew up. "If you're going to talk to the big moguls in Hollywood or other corporations and be taken seriously, they have to see you as someone who knows his business, someone to respect. When you're hanging out with your friends, the guys on the block, they have to be able to see you as one of the guys. Any African-American, to succeed, has to be able to speak both languages." [My summary of my wife's paraphrase.] Similarly, a number of years ago my daughter asked me why I took on a "guy accent" when talking with a garage mechanic or grocery clerk, talking differently from the way I usually do with my family and friends and coworkers. I explained, "Language does many things. It doesn't just convey semantic information. Language can say 'I am better than you. I am worse than you. We have something in common. We have nothing in common. We belong to the same group.'" > In any case, the distinction between descriptivist and prescriptivist is > quite real: compare a Webster's dictionary to an American Heritage > dictionary. Any dictionary can call itself "Webster's" -- that's not a trademark. But maybe you mean Merriam-Webster. -- Mark **[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] * Millennium: The Dictionary Entry to the tune of Jingle Bells (chorus) Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004 Double-L, double-N, just ten letters long. That's how to spell "millennium", remember by this song. "One thousand years exactly", the meaning of the word: Year One began the first one, and 2001 the third. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:39:18 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:39:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050219033919.89259.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > > > I'd never in a million years have identified Mark as a prescriptivist. > Also, some of us prescriptivists suck at identifying irony, > even if we're the only ones who know what the word means... D'ohhhhh! Mark __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:45:21 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050219034521.19582.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Jeff G." wrote: > With the ease of > travel, television, and the internet, we may eventually have a global > standard of English, but as of today it is so fractured that there is no > hope of putting it back together again. REUNITE GONDWANALAND! -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:48:25 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050219034825.34684.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Martin Wohlert wrote: > Well, I know that with radio and TV Swedish has actually become much more > standardized in the last hundred years, and I suspect it's the same with > English. We're moving towards conformity, not away from it. Or maybe both > ways at the same time. ;) Both. Linguists and language lovers have long lamented [I swear, that alliteration was unintentional] the decline of local dialects, but much to our surprise, American dialect divergence is continuing and even perhaps accelerating. (now, was that the Northern Cities Shift I was thinking of, or...?) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:51:24 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:51:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050219035125.91920.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and "Mary"? [Raise hand] Not only "can", but "do", natively and automatically. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 20:09:20 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050219040920.15584.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Howard Brazee wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:57:40 -0800 (PST), Philip Hart > wrote: > > > So who here can verbally distinguish between "merry", "marry", and > > "Mary"? > > When I say them, I think I hear differences. But my mother Mary Dawn > objects when she hears someone call her Mary Don. Eh? "Dawn" versus "Don" is a different distinction. My first semester at UC Berkeley as a grad student in linguistics. Phonology 101 with John Ohala, first day of class. John (as I know him now) sets up the "vowel trapezoid" on the blackboard and articulates the cardinal vowels, pointing to each in turn, down the front (left) and up the back (right). (I have to use approximate English spelling equivalents here rather than IPA, International Phonetic Alphabet, which even if I managed to type it in here would not come across in e-mail. "bEEt" means "the sound of the EE in 'beet', and so on.) bEEt cOOt bAIt cOAt bEt cAUght (=AW) bAt cOt (= AH like the "a" in fAther for most Americans) A hand goes up. "Professor Ohala? Would you pronounce those two again?" John smiles a little and points to the bottom two on the right side. "These two?" "Yes, please." (Pointing.) "AH. AW. AH. AW." "Are you saying those sounds are different?!" About two thirds of the class turns to stare at the questioner in disbelief. ("Can't you hear it?") Then most of the rest of the class has their turn for disbelief. ("Hear what?") Welcome to the Lower Back Vowel Merger. > Brits (or at least English), complain when USAmericans treat Harry and > Hairy as homonyms. Not all of us do. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 18:35:41 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:35:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <41FFF0CD.4010209@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050219023541.90680.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jose Marquez wrote: > And something I've noticed when I'm writing and I'm > unsure of how a phrase should be used: the more I play it back and forth > in my head (and even aloud), the less it makes sense; it's like the > phrase (or word!) loses its meaning by my replaying it like that. When I was a linguistics graduate student at UC Berkeley, we called this state being "scanted out", the type case being trying to work out the subtleties of usage of the word "scant". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 18 20:24:06 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:24:06 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050219040920.15584.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050219042418.CXUD18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> > > My first semester at UC Berkeley as a grad student in > linguistics. Phonology > 101 with John Ohala, first day of class. John (as I know him > now) sets up the "vowel trapezoid" on the blackboard and > articulates the cardinal vowels, pointing to each in turn, > down the front (left) and up the back (right). (I have to use > approximate English spelling equivalents here rather than > IPA, International Phonetic Alphabet, which even if I managed > to type it in here would not come across in e-mail. "bEEt" > means "the sound of the EE in 'beet', and so on.) > > bEEt cOOt > bAIt cOAt > bEt cAUght (=AW) > bAt cOt (= AH like the "a" in fAther for most Americans) > > A hand goes up. "Professor Ohala? Would you pronounce those > two again?" > > John smiles a little and points to the bottom two on the > right side. "These two?" > > "Yes, please." > > (Pointing.) "AH. AW. AH. AW." > > "Are you saying those sounds are different?!" > > About two thirds of the class turns to stare at the > questioner in disbelief. > ("Can't you hear it?") > > Then most of the rest of the class has their turn for > disbelief. ("Hear what?") > > Welcome to the Lower Back Vowel Merger. I have that experience with "hot". I pronounce it like "hAWt" and my wife pronounces it more like "hAHt" and I tease her and tell her she's drawling while she accueses me of sounding like a prat. Also I say "milk" and she pronounces it closer to "melk". I've joked that I'm going to market that as a non-dairy product at the grocery store and she claims I say the word like a kitten would: "Miewlk. Miewlk." It's all a matter of pronounce-iation. Shawn From bryann at bryann.net Fri Feb 18 20:57:37 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:57:37 -0600 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050219040920.15584.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502190457.j1J4vN1r014221@bryann.net> > > But my mother Mary Dawn > > objects when she hears someone call her Mary Don. > > Eh? "Dawn" versus "Don" is a different distinction. ... > (Pointing.) "AH. AW. AH. AW." > > "Are you saying those sounds are different?!" My name is spelled with a Y (Bryan), which is the less popular spelling, and I can usually tell the difference between the spoken names Bryan and Brian. Most people tend to stress the long I a little bit differently when they know my name is spelled with a Y. My brother Jason has two friends named Brian. If me and either one of them is in the same room, everyone uses Bryan and Brian to identify us, with very little confusion--as long as everyone there knows the both of us (otherwise they invariably pronounce my name Brian instead of Bryan). But if the two Brians are in the same room, everyone has to fall back to their last names to avoid confusion. This has become something of a joke--our favorite generic expression for each other is "guy", and one of the Brians claims he can tell the difference between guy-with-a-y and guy-with-an-i. Bryan From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 18 21:42:26 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:42:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050219042418.CXUD18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050219042418.CXUD18442.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > Also I say "milk" and she pronounces it closer to "melk". I've joked > that I'm going to market that as a non-dairy product at the grocery > store and she claims I say the word like a kitten would: "Miewlk. > Miewlk." After a year living in Germany I went on a trip to Scotland and ended up getting a coffee at a McDonald's since it was some ungodly hour of the morning. The guy asked me, "You want some maehlhch?" and I thought, What language is that? and finally realized he meant "Milch" hence "milk". From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Feb 18 22:28:51 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:28:51 -0800 Subject: Weblog Message-ID: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Weblog Friday February 18th: "...I'm at one of those points where I get to alternate between rice and kim chee and rice and picante sauce. On the other hand, a dear friend just sent some steaks..." Is there a way for us to culinarily support Steve while he does all this work for us? I'd hate to think of Steve writing a book while his tastebuds are dissatisfied...it might come out in the writing in bad ways (e.g. Valabar's being burned down). Just something to think about. Shawn From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Feb 18 23:15:10 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:15:10 -0800 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050219032259.72998.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050219032259.72998.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1108797310.2785.106.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2005-02-18 at 19:22, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > In any case, the distinction between descriptivist and prescriptivist is > > quite real: compare a Webster's dictionary to an American Heritage > > dictionary. > > Any dictionary can call itself "Webster's" -- that's not a trademark. But maybe > you mean Merriam-Webster. > I stand corrected. From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Sat Feb 19 01:12:25 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:12:25 +0100 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: References: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050219091203.GA55258@weller-fahy.com> * John Klein [2005-02-04 16:27 +0100]: > If only there were some way to combine these concepts... ah, wait! > Google can do it for me. Oh great Google, I beseech thee, tell me > about piano man (filk OR parody)! Hrm... I just tried that, and couldn't find that filk... URL please? -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Feb 19 05:34:39 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:34:39 -0500 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2005, at 1:28 AM, Shawn Burns wrote: > Weblog Friday February 18th: "...I'm at one of those points where I > get to > alternate > between rice and kim chee and rice and picante sauce. On the other > hand, a dear friend just sent some steaks..." > > Is there a way for us to culinarily support Steve while he does all > this > work for us? I'd hate to think of Steve writing a book while his > tastebuds > are dissatisfied...it might come out in the writing in bad ways (e.g. > Valabar's being burned down). > > Just something to think about. > > Shawn I was wondering that myself. Maybe we can start a fund. From howard at brazee.net Sat Feb 19 06:24:36 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:24:36 -0700 Subject: duh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c5168e$bdde3270$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > >> Also I say "milk" and she pronounces it closer to "melk". I've joked >> that I'm going to market that as a non-dairy product at the grocery >> store and she claims I say the word like a kitten would: "Miewlk. >> Miewlk." > > After a year living in Germany I went on a trip to Scotland and ended > up getting a coffee at a McDonald's since it was some ungodly hour of > the morning. The guy asked me, "You want some maehlhch?" and I > thought, What language is that? and finally realized he meant "Milch" > hence "milk". I'm inferring that "Milch" is the name of a non-dairy creamer. The word reminds me of "mulch". From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Feb 19 13:24:47 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:24:47 -0500 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <39A3CB47.0811345C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 2/18/2005 4:18:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ginnilee p berger writes: > Ginnilee > Lady Lavender of Teal, who actually *owns* the tshirt saying, > "English doesn't borrow from other languages, it follows them > down dark alley, mugs them and goes through their pockets for > loose grammar" Is it attributed correctly? And does the back have the corollary about giving candy to unsuspecting creoles? --KG From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 19 13:30:19 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:30:19 -0700 Subject: Weblog References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Weblog > > On Feb 19, 2005, at 1:28 AM, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > Weblog Friday February 18th: "...I'm at one of those points where I > > get to > > alternate > > between rice and kim chee and rice and picante sauce. On the other > > hand, a dear friend just sent some steaks..." > > > > Is there a way for us to culinarily support Steve while he does all > > this > > work for us? I'd hate to think of Steve writing a book while his > > tastebuds > > are dissatisfied...it might come out in the writing in bad ways (e.g. > > Valabar's being burned down). > > > > Just something to think about. > > > > Shawn > > > I was wondering that myself. Maybe we can start a fund. > > Yeah, and I need to find some better friends. Nobody sends me steaks. . . . Jeff From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Feb 19 13:39:00 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:39:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > Yeah, and I need to find some better friends. Nobody sends me steaks. . . . How does that old country song go? You never send me ribeyes any more. You never drop chateaubriands or lobsters at my door. No caviar or seared foie gras, and oh my heart is sore. You never send me ribeyes any more. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 19 13:54:10 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff Gibbons) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:54:10 -0700 Subject: Weblog References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Weblog > > > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > Yeah, and I need to find some better friends. Nobody sends me steaks. . . > > > How does that old country song go? > > You never send me ribeyes any more. > You never drop chateaubriands or lobsters at my door. > No caviar or seared foie gras, and oh my heart is sore. > You never send me ribeyes any more. > > Ok, now I am hungry. I am going to Steve's house to scam some steak. Jeff From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 14:52:53 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:52:53 -0500 Subject: IRC channel Message-ID: I've started a little channel on espernet to talk about the works of our esteemed Mr. Brust. The channel name is #brustland, and I and a friend who've I introduced to Vlad run it as of now. Hope to see some of you guys on it. From dave at waveridersystems.com Sat Feb 19 15:55:07 2005 From: dave at waveridersystems.com (Dave Godwin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:55:07 -0800 Subject: IRC channel References: Message-ID: <000401c516de$713b7540$c2d1f7a5@queeg.net> Which IRC network? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alma Gaiz" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:52 PM Subject: IRC channel > I've started a little channel on espernet to talk about the works of > our esteemed Mr. Brust. > > The channel name is #brustland, and I and a friend who've I introduced > to Vlad run it as of now. Hope to see some of you guys on it. > From howard at brazee.net Sat Feb 19 16:06:17 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:06:17 -0700 Subject: IRC channel In-Reply-To: <000401c516de$713b7540$c2d1f7a5@queeg.net> Message-ID: <000001c516e0$006b6210$667ba8c0@Dad133> The language looks like English, I suspect you're talking English, but I haven't a clue. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Godwin [mailto:dave at waveridersystems.com] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 4:55 PM To: Alma Gaiz Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: IRC channel Which IRC network? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alma Gaiz" To: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:52 PM Subject: IRC channel > I've started a little channel on espernet to talk about the works of > our esteemed Mr. Brust. > > The channel name is #brustland, and I and a friend who've I introduced > to Vlad run it as of now. Hope to see some of you guys on it. > From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Feb 19 16:22:45 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:22:45 -0500 Subject: IRC channel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Alma Gaiz wrote: > I've started a little channel on espernet to talk about the works of > our esteemed Mr. Brust. > > The channel name is #brustland, and I and a friend who've I introduced > to Vlad run it as of now. Hope to see some of you guys on it. Fire up your irc client and go to irc.esper,bet and /join #brustland From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Feb 19 16:34:31 2005 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:34:31 -0500 Subject: IRC channel In-Reply-To: <002b01c516e3$c3977f00$c2d1f7a5@queeg.net> References: <002b01c516e3$c3977f00$c2d1f7a5@queeg.net> Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2005, at 7:33 PM, Dave Godwin wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Turkel" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 4:22 PM > Subject: Re: IRC channel > > >> >> On Feb 19, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Alma Gaiz wrote: >> >>> I've started a little channel on espernet to talk about the works of >>> our esteemed Mr. Brust. >>> >>> The channel name is #brustland, and I and a friend who've I >>> introduced >>> to Vlad run it as of now. Hope to see some of you guys on it. >> >> >> Fire up your irc client and go to irc.esper,bet and /join #brustland > > > That's not a valid server name. ooops typo irc.esper.net From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Sat Feb 19 17:02:30 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:02:30 -0600 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <4217E1A6.2030808@comcast.net> Hmmmm. Thinking as a self-interested reader, do we *want* Steve to be well-fed and happy? Does he write any faster when he's broke and hungry? Just had to ask . . . Mia (running and hiding) Philip Hart wrote: >On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > >>Yeah, and I need to find some better friends. Nobody sends me steaks. . . . >> >> > > >How does that old country song go? > >You never send me ribeyes any more. >You never drop chateaubriands or lobsters at my door. >No caviar or seared foie gras, and oh my heart is sore. >You never send me ribeyes any more. > > > > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Feb 19 21:27:24 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 00:27:24 EST Subject: Weblog Message-ID: <15.3eeeb6eb.2f4979bc@aol.com> Hi, Maybe what Steve needs is a patron. >From AOL Dictionary by Merriam-Webster Patron (noun) "Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin & Latin; Medieval Latin patronus patron saint, patron of a benefice, pattern, from Latin, defender, from patr-, pater Date: 14th century 1 a : a person chosen, named, or honored as a special guardian, protector, or supporter b : a wealthy or influential supporter of an artist or writer 2 : one that uses wealth or influence to help an individual, an institution, or a cause " For example: Sir Paarfi of Roundwood various patrons: The Phoenix Guards "Presented, as Always, With Humble Respects To Lady Parachai of Redstaff In Hopes that it will Meet with her Approval" Five Hundred Years After "Presented, as Always To the Countess of Garnier With Gratitude and Hope" The Paths of the Dead, The Lord of Castle Black, and Sethra Lavode "Presented, as Always, To Marchioness Poorborn With Gratitude and Affection" It might be a little hard to revive something from the 14th Century. I still like the T-shirt idea, even though, I probably will not have any Lavodewear by the time Sethra Lavode is published in paperback. Hmmm, Patron (noun) "3 : one who buys the goods or uses the services offered especially by an establishment" Heh, doesn't that make me a patron because I buy books? And they make great gifts too. Bye. Linda G. From s1burns at ucsd.edu Sat Feb 19 21:37:00 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:37:00 -0800 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <15.3eeeb6eb.2f4979bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050220053708.HFBD12414.fed1rmmtao12.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com [mailto:FRIEDA2133 at aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:27 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Weblog > > Hi, > > Maybe what Steve needs is a patron. > > >From AOL Dictionary by Merriam-Webster > > Patron (noun) > "Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Medieval > Latin & Latin; Medieval Latin patronus patron saint, patron > of a benefice, pattern, from Latin, defender, from patr-, pater > Date: 14th century > 1 a : a person chosen, named, or honored as a special > guardian, protector, or supporter b : a wealthy or > influential supporter of an artist or writer > 2 : one that uses wealth or influence to help an individual, > an institution, or a cause " > > For example: > > Sir Paarfi of Roundwood various patrons: > > The Phoenix Guards > > "Presented, as Always, With Humble Respects To Lady Parachai > of Redstaff In Hopes that it will Meet with her Approval" > > Five Hundred Years After > > "Presented, as Always > To the Countess of Garnier > With Gratitude and Hope" > > The Paths of the Dead, The Lord of Castle Black, and Sethra Lavode > > "Presented, as Always, > To Marchioness Poorborn > With Gratitude and Affection" > > It might be a little hard to revive something from the 14th Century. > > I still like the T-shirt idea, even though, I probably will > not have any Lavodewear by the time Sethra Lavode is > published in paperback. > > Hmmm, Patron (noun) > "3 : one who buys the goods or uses the services offered > especially by an establishment" > > Heh, doesn't that make me a patron because I buy books? And > they make great gifts too. > > Bye. > > Linda G. > I think mostly it makes you a patron of the publisher. Steve needs something a bit more direct. Shawn From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Feb 20 06:53:19 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:53:19 +0000 Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text Message-ID: Don't do this at home if you're not over 18, but I just wanted to mention I have another reason to hate Steve: His last name, GIS'ed, is SO much more cool than mine... What the hell does Carey mean in German, or any other language? NOTHING, that's what. NOTHING. Jon From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Feb 20 07:38:04 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:38:04 -0500 Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4218AEDC.1010100@earthlink.net> J C wrote: > > Don't do this at home if you're not over 18, but I just wanted to > mention I have another reason to hate Steve: > > His last name, GIS'ed, is SO much more cool than mine... > > What the hell does Carey mean in German, or any other language? > NOTHING, that's what. NOTHING. It took me a while to figure out that GIS is not Geographic Information System, but rather Google Image Search. Everything is now clear. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 11:06:51 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:06:51 -0500 Subject: IRC channel In-Reply-To: References: <002b01c516e3$c3977f00$c2d1f7a5@queeg.net> Message-ID: IRC is a sort of AIM, except besides messaging people chat rooms can be created and moderated. A popular program to access the IRC network is mIRC. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Feb 20 14:53:15 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:53:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: > How does that old country song go? > > You never send me ribeyes any more. > You never drop chateaubriands or lobsters at my door. > No caviar or seared foie gras, and oh my heart is sore. > You never send me ribeyes any more. You sent me candlebuds in days long past. Your hair is now less golden underneath the Overcast. Some nights I lie awake in fear our love affair won't last. You sent me candlebuds in days long past. From frank at exit.com Sun Feb 20 14:59:36 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:59:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> Philip Hart wrote: > You sent me candlebuds in days long past. > Your hair is now less golden underneath the Overcast. "Beneath." > Some nights I lie awake in fear our love affair won't last. > You sent me candlebuds in days long past. I just think it scans better. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Feb 20 15:00:51 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > You sent me candlebuds in days long past. > Your hair is now less golden underneath the Overcast. > Some nights I lie awake in fear our love affair won't last. > You sent me candlebuds in days long past. > You never challenge me to duels these days. You don't invite me fencing or to sorcery displays. You're shorter than you used to be and now your hair is maize. You never challenge me to duels these days. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Feb 20 15:08:24 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> References: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > Your hair is now less golden underneath the Overcast. > > "Beneath." > I just think it scans better. Well, it scans perfectly in iambic septameter (aka fourteeners) as far as I can tell, but you can sing it "Your hair now grows less gold beneath the darkening Overcast." if you prefer. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Feb 20 16:05:05 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:05:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <20050219062859.EPBY29980.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > > You never challenge me to duels these days. > You don't invite me fencing or to sorcery displays. > You're shorter than you used to be and now your hair is maize. > You never challenge me to duels these days. > > I would have bet my life you weren't there. I would have sworn mine was the hand that gently combed my hair. I poured my full soul out to you when I was unaware. I would have bet my life you weren't there. Yeah, yeah, sorry for the spamming. Someone else will have to write the bridge anyway. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 21 05:56:36 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:56:36 -0700 Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "J C" To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:53 AM Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text > > Don't do this at home if you're not over 18, but I just wanted to mention I > have another reason to hate Steve: > > His last name, GIS'ed, is SO much more cool than mine... > > What the hell does Carey mean in German, or any other language? NOTHING, > that's what. NOTHING. > > Jon > > > Could be worse, I get a bunch of monkeys. Jeff Gibbons From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 21 07:52:27 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:52:27 -0500 Subject: oops Message-ID: <25467DBD.6175349A.00184D6D@aol.com> Melissa, I don't have your e-mail and I don't have my stuff, can you e-mail me please. -C From frank at exit.com Mon Feb 21 09:03:40 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200502211703.j1LH3eE5091425@realtime.exit.com> Jeff G. wrote: > From: "J C" > > What the hell does Carey mean in German, or any other language? NOTHING, > > that's what. NOTHING. > Could be worse, I get a bunch of monkeys. Hey, "Mayhar" is a given name in India. A _feminine_ given name. Imagine my surprise. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 21 09:18:31 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:18:31 -0500 Subject: duh! Message-ID: <0EA28D1B.221E33A0.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/18/2005 11:57:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bryan Newell" writes: >My name is spelled with a Y (Bryan), which is the less popular spelling, and >I can usually tell the difference between the spoken names Bryan and Brian. > >Most people tend to stress the long I a little bit differently when they >know my name is spelled with a Y. > >My brother Jason has two friends named Brian. ?If me and either one of them >is in the same room, everyone uses Bryan and Brian to identify us, with very >little confusion--as long as everyone there knows the both of us (otherwise >they invariably pronounce my name Brian instead of Bryan). > **snip** My brother's name is Eric. My family and very few others say his name the way we say it. Most people say it so it sounds like Airic and we just say E-ric (short "e" like in... sorry, time for me to go home). -C > > > > From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 12:03:19 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:03:19 -0600 Subject: din zee a cad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gene Wolfe's _The Knight_ was my favorite book of last year. I've been looking foward to second half of the story but figured it'd be awhile before it came out. re: the Subject - Switching gears (but staying on-topic), these are the words of a young man who has lipped off to a knight-in-training and received an appropriate physical reprimand for his trouble. Translated, it means "I didn't see a cat". It goes without saying that he also didn't anticipate the butt of a lance to the face, but these aren't cuddly Knights we're dealing with, here. Yes, folks, I was walking through the local Waldenbooks on Saturday looking for a new chapterbook for my son (he's just finished his first book, a book based in the Warcraft universe, and I couldn't be more proud). I was looking for the next Thursday Next book and walked past the new hardcover racks when my eyes went as wide as plates and I performed the patented DoubleTake manuever. I reversed my steps and found myself holding a hardcover copy of Gene Wolfe's _The Wizard_, the second part of the story he began with _The Knight_. I knew it was upcoming but didn't know it was released! http://tinyurl.com/5hb7r "The teenage boy who wandered into another set of realities in Wolfe's The Knight has attained his ambition of knighthood. Now, as Sir Able of the High Heart, he returns in this sequel riding a steed that's not a horse, wielding his magic sword and bound by oath not to use his new otherworldly powers. Such a summary is like saying a spoonful of tap water constitutes the whole of all oceans. Wolfe's words wash over the reader with transparent grace and charming playfulness as he spins his profoundly imaginative, metaphysically complex, yet ever-entertaining tale with astonishing naturalness. In trademark Wolfian fashion, the memory-altered protagonist acts as narrator, telling the truth whenever possible and to the full extent of his own understanding. This second volume satisfactorily supplies many answers to the riddles and allusions of its tantalizing predecessor, but posits new mysteries as well. The novel stands alone and might even be best if read before The Knight, but will surely drive readers to the first as well. The conclusion hints at possible further adventures. Outstanding fantasy these days is often convincingly and compellingly anti-Tolkien, but Wolfe proves one can tell an epic, myth-based story of honor, loyalty, courage and faith relevant to our own dark times. This is fantasy at its best: revelatory and inspirational." I'm just going to sit here and shiver with delight and bemoan the fact that I must work instead of reading this book Right Here and Now. (btw, the SKZB blurb quote from _The Knight_ was carried over for this book, too, as was the Gaiman quote.) -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From howard at brazee.net Mon Feb 21 12:14:04 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:14:04 -0700 Subject: din zee a cad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:03:19 -0600, Johne Cook wrote: > Gene Wolfe's _The Knight_ was my favorite book of last year. I've > been looking foward to second half of the story but figured it'd be > awhile before it came out. The Wizard was available before Christmas, but I didn't see The Knight, so I didn't ask for this for Christmas. I ended up buying The Knight a couple of weeks ago when it came out in trade ppb. I wanted those books, but I've never been chomping at the bit for a Gene Wolfe book to come out, and have a big backlog. There are only a small handful of Brusts in this world whose works I can't wait for paperback. A decade ago, I worked for EDS. A coworker and I had a team leader named Susan Burkhardsmeir, who used to be Susan French - her sister later married Bill Gates. That coworker was named Gene Wolfe. He was a horseman and furrier who decided he needed money and became a programmer. (When he graduated from college he wanted to join the Peace Corps and teach cattle to Africans - they had other ideas, so he joined the Army). I found a clipping from Locus that he copied and posted on his cubicle: Gene Wolfe is so good he makes me cry - Ursula LeGuin. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From books at bofh.com Mon Feb 21 19:23:11 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:23:11 -0700 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20050222032311.GA4368@bofh.com> On Sun, Feb 20, 2005 at 03:08:24PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > Your hair is now less golden underneath the Overcast. > > "Beneath." > > I just think it scans better. > Well, it scans perfectly in iambic septameter (aka fourteeners) > as far as I can tell, but you can sing it Shouldn't these be written in iambic heptakaimeter? -Jot "Making a guess at 17" Powers -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 21 21:37:04 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <20050222032311.GA4368@bofh.com> References: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> <20050222032311.GA4368@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Jot Powers wrote: > On Sun, Feb 20, 2005 at 03:08:24PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > > Your hair is now less golden underneath the Overcast. > > > "Beneath." > > > I just think it scans better. > > Well, it scans perfectly in iambic septameter (aka fourteeners) > > as far as I can tell, but you can sing it > > Shouldn't these be written in iambic heptakaimeter? > > -Jot "Making a guess at 17" Powers Seventeen feet is way too long to sustain a coherent line, which should approximate a breath according to some and, more importantly, should have a hearable length. My septameters for that matter are really 3+4 feet. Seventeen _syllables_ is a workable length, or should be - I've begun a Dragaeran-themed poem in that meter and have been finding it difficult to distinguish it from prose. From books at bofh.com Tue Feb 22 07:43:55 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:43:55 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing names... was Re: duh! In-Reply-To: <200502190457.j1J4vN1r014221@bryann.net> References: <20050219040920.15584.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200502190457.j1J4vN1r014221@bryann.net> Message-ID: <20050222154355.GA10864@bofh.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:57:37PM -0600, Bryan Newell wrote: > > > But my mother Mary Dawn > > > objects when she hears someone call her Mary Don. > > Eh? "Dawn" versus "Don" is a different distinction. > > (Pointing.) "AH. AW. AH. AW." > > "Are you saying those sounds are different?!" > My name is spelled with a Y (Bryan), which is the less popular spelling, and > I can usually tell the difference between the spoken names Bryan and Brian. I am of the opinion that people who have odd names tend to be more careful in their pronunciation. I think it is a result of being sensitized to it because of the mangling of your own. It is my experience that the only people who get my name right when I am introduced/introduce myself are people who also have odd names. All others say some variation of "Hi John/Josh/Jock" although I enunciate quite clearly. [1] I also listen carefully (and normally immediately forget) when other people say their name. If I'm not sure I heard it right, I say something like: "I'm sorry. Was that X?" People with odd names appreciate you taking the time to get it right....but they then also know that you have an odd name because of paragraph 2. :) [2] Oh, and just to keep it on topic, care to guess how often any of these people actually had their names pronounced correctly the first time when introduced: 1) Aliera 2) Corwin 3) Reen -Jot [1] My Mom tells the story of me, at age 3 or so, introducing myself as "Jot J-O-T Jot" all said as one word. :) [2] If they have figured this out. Just because you have an odd named doesn't mean you're very smart. -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Feb 22 08:33:05 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:33:05 -0500 Subject: Pronouncing names... was Re: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050222154355.GA10864@bofh.com> References: <20050219040920.15584.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200502190457.j1J4vN1r014221@bryann.net> <20050222154355.GA10864@bofh.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222112804.034dfd60@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:43 02/22/2005, Jot Powers wrote: >I also listen carefully (and normally immediately forget) when other >people say their name. If I'm not sure I heard it right, I say something >like: "I'm sorry. Was that X?" People with odd names appreciate you >taking the time to get it right....but they then also know that you >have an odd name because of paragraph 2. :) [2] > >Oh, and just to keep it on topic, care to guess how often any of these >people actually had their names pronounced correctly the first time >when introduced: > >1) Aliera >2) Corwin >3) Reen Although I tend not to have problems with my given name :), my surname is seldom pronounced properly by anyone, even after I pronounce it for them. Try accenting the first syllable, and pronouncing "eau" as it is pronounced in "Juneau" or "bureau". Anyway, I would say "Al YARE a", "COR win", and probably "Rain". -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Feb 22 08:36:24 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:36:24 -0500 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: References: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> <20050222032311.GA4368@bofh.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222113502.034d36d0@pop.east.cox.net> At 00:37 02/22/2005, Philip Hart wrote: >Seventeen feet is way too long to sustain a coherent line, which should >approximate a breath according to some and, more importantly, should have >a hearable length. My septameters for that matter are really 3+4 feet. >Seventeen _syllables_ is a workable length, or should be - I've begun a >Dragaeran-themed poem in that meter and have been finding it difficult >to distinguish it from prose. 17 syllables is a haiku, isn't it? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 22 09:43:45 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:43:45 -0500 Subject: irc help Message-ID: <6A0C472C.50F9B2DD.00184D6D@aol.com> Ummm, I can't get to that irc thing. I went to irc.esper.net and it gave me some legend.esper thing (or something like that). Help me please, someone! -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Feb 22 09:49:20 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:49:20 -0500 Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text Message-ID: <460D0B7E.55D08290.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/21/2005 8:56:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff G." writes: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "J C" >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:53 AM >Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text > > >> >> Don't do this at home if you're not over 18, but I just wanted to mention >I >> have another reason to hate Steve: >> >> His last name, GIS'ed, is SO much more cool than mine... >> Cool if you're a guy! Ew (a girlfriend of mine looks just like some of those pics) >> Jon >> >> >> >Could be worse, I get a bunch of monkeys. > >Jeff Gibbons > I get a girl named Katie, baseball pics, and a camper. -C From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Feb 22 09:56:28 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:56:28 -0500 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222113502.034d36d0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> <20050222032311.GA4368@bofh.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222113502.034d36d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <421B724C.8050305@email.ers.usda.gov> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 00:37 02/22/2005, Philip Hart wrote: > >> Seventeen feet is way too long to sustain a coherent line, which should >> approximate a breath according to some and, more importantly, should >> have >> a hearable length. My septameters for that matter are really 3+4 feet. >> Seventeen _syllables_ is a workable length, or should be - I've begun a >> Dragaeran-themed poem in that meter and have been finding it difficult >> to distinguish it from prose. > > > 17 syllables is a haiku, isn't it? > If it's the entire poem (& follows several other rules I won't bore you with). This poem, however, is 17 syllables in each *line*. I don't really care, so long as it is not Alexandrines or rhymed couplets (-; Snarkhunter From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Feb 22 11:56:06 2005 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (melalvai) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:56:06 -0600 Subject: Googly names (was: NSFW idea embedded in text) In-Reply-To: <460D0B7E.55D08290.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050222195822.7050B16D22C@murdock.dreamhost.com> > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "J C" >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 7:53 AM >Subject: NSFW idea embedded in text > > >> >> Don't do this at home if you're not over 18, but I just wanted to mention >I >> have another reason to hate Steve: >> >> His last name, GIS'ed, is SO much more cool than mine... >> >> Jon >> >Could be worse, I get a bunch of monkeys. > >Jeff Gibbons > >I get a girl named Katie, baseball pics, and a camper. >-C I get a guy named Merritt Ruhlen, whom everyone says is a crackpot linguistic anthropologist. Could be worse. (I think he is a relative. Two Ruhlen brothers came over from Germany, he's from the other brother.) Rachel Ruhlen From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Feb 22 12:06:26 2005 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (melalvai) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:06:26 -0600 Subject: The Man from Shemhaza (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <200502080045.j180joam003518@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20050222200835.6AA7D16D220@murdock.dreamhost.com> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:46 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info; philiph at slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: The Man from Shemhaza Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > If anyone hasn't read it, it's from the latest Thieves' World book. > > I highly recommend it--for Steve's story, if for nothing else. > > Will it make sense to those unfamiliar with the world? >Yep. I've only read a couple of the old >Thieves' World books myself. And it can >also be read without having read the other stories >in the book. (I was rather proud that I didn't >jump straight to Steve's, but read the whole thing >through.:) Ok, I have to disagree. I read the story and I just don't get it. I thought maybe it was because I haven't read any other Thieves' World books ever. Here's what I found confusing (SPOILERS AHEAD): Mr. Brust usually does us the kindness to put in clues for the unexpected, which are meaningless at the time but after you get surprised you suddenly go "ah ha! That's what that meant!" When the protagonist said he was the killer I was completely taken aback. I went back through and looked and everything was pretty convincing that he was innocent, particularly where he thinks he's being questioned "under the Orb" (some lie detector variant of that world, anyway). So I have to admit, I was disappointed. There were other things I liked, such as the cresca, although I was mad when he broke it, and the three types of audiences. :) Rachel From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Feb 22 12:23:24 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:23:24 -0800 Subject: The Man from Shemhaza (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20050222200835.6AA7D16D220@murdock.dreamhost.com> References: <20050222200835.6AA7D16D220@murdock.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <421B94BC.2030801@sun.com> melalvai wrote: > > Ok, I have to disagree. That's okay. We get a good deal of that around here. > Here's what I found confusing (SPOILERS AHEAD): > Mr. Brust usually does us the kindness to put in clues for the unexpected, > which are meaningless at the time but after you get surprised you suddenly > go "ah ha! That's what that meant!" When the protagonist said he was the > killer I was completely taken aback. I went back through and looked and > everything was pretty convincing that he was innocent, particularly where he > thinks he's being questioned "under the Orb" (some lie detector variant of > that world, anyway). So I have to admit, I was disappointed. Hmm...I'll read it again and look for clues, but the lack of them doesn't mean it's a bad story, or even that one need read other Theives' World stories to understand. Also, I was curious about the lie-detector section when I read it, and while it might not be considered a "clue", it was suspicious (or, at least, I found it so). Perhaps our tastes vary slightly. I thought it was grand, took me by surprise, and loved every second of shock I felt. See, now I gotta go read it again... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 14:14:21 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050222113502.034d36d0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <200502202259.j1KMxbwv040230@realtime.exit.com> <20050222032311.GA4368@bofh.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050222113502.034d36d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: > 17 syllables is a haiku, isn't it? Haiku is 17- 5 7 5 However, this can be discounted now. Haiku can be more or less syllables. I write many, many haikus (a small collection just got in my school's literary magazine). From foodgod at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 14:28:05 2005 From: foodgod at pobox.com (Teddywolf) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:28:05 -0500 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:14 PM, Alma Gaiz wrote: >> 17 syllables is a haiku, isn't it? > > Haiku is 17- > 5 > 7 > 5 > However, this can be discounted now. Haiku can be more or less > syllables. I write many, many haikus (a small collection just got in > my school's literary magazine). A haiku is more than syllable count. A more traditional Japanese haiku will have the appropriate number of syllables for each line; but each line will be a discrete concept, and the final line will likely have a reference to the natural world. I've read that some consider haikus in English to be OK if they have fewer than the listed number of syllables for each line. The reasoning was, English is a more compact language syllable-wise. Common words like pearls Poetry flows with meaning Each line a fountain Jacob From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 22 14:29:45 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:29:45 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing names... was Re: duh! In-Reply-To: <20050222154355.GA10864@bofh.com> Message-ID: <001001c5192e$038476d0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Jot Powers wrote: > Oh, and just to keep it on topic, care to guess how often any of these > people actually had their names pronounced correctly the first time > when introduced: > > 1) Aliera > 2) Corwin > 3) Reen > > -Jot I just assumed these would be pronounced phonetically. But those characters could pronounce their names any way they like. What is "correct"? It is not at all obvious what would be alternative ways of pronouncing these names - or Jot, for that matter. (Who's Reen?) From howard at brazee.net Tue Feb 22 14:34:21 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:34:21 -0700 Subject: Googly names (was: NSFW idea embedded in text) In-Reply-To: <20050222195822.7050B16D22C@murdock.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <001101c5192e$a7aefbe0$667ba8c0@Dad133> melalvai wrote: > I get a guy named Merritt Ruhlen, whom everyone says is a crackpot > linguistic anthropologist. Could be worse. (I think he is a relative. > Two Ruhlen brothers came over from Germany, he's from the other > brother.) > > Rachel Ruhlen I haven't met any Brazee that I was not related to. I did get a bill of some Brazee once who I didn't know. One time I was in a small Italian meat market when someone heard my wife call me Howard. This couple got excited about us having the same name (I couldn't understand why), and he pulled out his wallet to show he was really a Howard. His name was Howard J Brace III. I am Howard J Brazee III. Odd. I bet I know a very large percentage of the people named Brazee-Cannon that exist in the vicinity of Earth. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Feb 22 14:38:42 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:38:42 -0800 Subject: Pronouncing names... was Re: duh! In-Reply-To: <001001c5192e$038476d0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <175801c5192f$42abf490$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Oh, and just to keep it on topic, care to guess how often any of these > people actually had their names pronounced correctly the first time > when introduced: > > 1) Aliera > 2) Corwin > 3) Reen I guess I have to wonder what the "trick" is in these names. Aliera is the only one that appears questionable. When I first read the books I read it as "Ah-lee-er-a" but later discovered that it's really "Ah-leer-ah". I suppose that Reen could be "rain" as someone suggested. Corwin, though, seems self evident. What are the supposed variations of it? From mklahn at mac.com Tue Feb 22 14:54:55 2005 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:54:55 -0600 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> References: <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> Message-ID: <5666700.1109112895175.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com> On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 04:28PM, Teddywolf wrote: >Common words like pearls >Poetry flows with meaning >Each line a fountain Bits fly through cable The speed of light, or slower Junk mail, re: haiku Matthew From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Feb 22 14:56:02 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:56:02 -0800 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> References: <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> Message-ID: <1109112961.1490.155.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 14:28, Teddywolf wrote: > > I've read that some consider haikus in English to be OK if they have > fewer than the listed number of syllables for each line. The reasoning > was, English is a more compact language syllable-wise. > > Common words like pearls > Poetry flows with meaning > Each line a fountain > There was a young man of Hanshu Who tried limericks in Haiku. But From foodgod at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 15:07:11 2005 From: foodgod at pobox.com (Teddywolf) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:07:11 -0500 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: <1109112961.1490.155.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <7BF0A7C2-8526-11D9-9DB5-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:56 PM, Steve Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 14:28, Teddywolf wrote: > >> >> I've read that some consider haikus in English to be OK if they have >> fewer than the listed number of syllables for each line. The >> reasoning >> was, English is a more compact language syllable-wise. >> >> Common words like pearls >> Poetry flows with meaning >> Each line a fountain >> > > There was a young man of Hanshu > Who tried limericks in Haiku. > But Jesting in Haiku A study in silliness Whyfore we do this? From asr at ufl.edu Tue Feb 22 16:37:14 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:37:14 -0500 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:07:11 EST." <7BF0A7C2-8526-11D9-9DB5-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200502230037.j1N0bElc102326@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:07:11 -0500, Teddywolf said: > On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:56 PM, Steve Brust wrote: >> On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 14:28, Teddywolf wrote: >>> Common words like pearls >>> Poetry flows with meaning >>> Each line a fountain >> There was a young man of Hanshu >> Who tried limericks in Haiku. >> But > Jesting in Haiku > A study in silliness > Whyfore we do this? Jousting with our words Fancy ourselves literate Snidely counting coup. - Allen S. Rout From books at bofh.com Tue Feb 22 16:55:35 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:55:35 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing names... was Re: duh! In-Reply-To: <001001c5192e$038476d0$667ba8c0@Dad133> References: <20050222154355.GA10864@bofh.com> <001001c5192e$038476d0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050223005535.GA18482@bofh.com> On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 03:29:45PM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > Jot Powers wrote: > > Oh, and just to keep it on topic, care to guess how often any of these > > people actually had their names pronounced correctly the first time > > when introduced: > > 1) Aliera > > 2) Corwin > > 3) Reen > I just assumed these would be pronounced phonetically. But those > characters could pronounce their names any way they like. What is > "correct"? Actually, all 3 of these are real people associated with Steven. Some of them have been/might still be Brusts. It is why I brought it up, although clearly their names have different meaning for those used to the pure literary sense. > It is not at all obvious what would be alternative ways of pronouncing these > names - or Jot, for that matter. Jot is pronounced just like you would expect...unless you are Indian (dot not feather :) [1] where it is slightly more common and pronounced Yote. [2] > (Who's Reen?) She used to be on the list, don't know if she still is. Reen Brust is the mother of Steven's children. -Jot [1] No offense intended. [2] Small world story: In my 30+ years I have never met another Jot. But for a while I was somewhat active in a custom knife club. There, some of the makers who knew me would call me Jot. Then, they would go to a show in Portland and come back and call me Yote. Turns out there is a well respected custom knife maker by the name of Jot Singh (something I forget). He got irritated when people called him Jot, I would correct people when they called me Yote. I finally sent him an email telling him the Arizona people had good reason, and he was very pleasant. :) -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'" - Dave Barry From foodgod at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 16:49:15 2005 From: foodgod at pobox.com (Teddywolf) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:49:15 -0500 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: <1109112961.1490.155.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:56 PM, Steve Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 14:28, Teddywolf wrote: > >> >> I've read that some consider haikus in English to be OK if they have >> fewer than the listed number of syllables for each line. The >> reasoning >> was, English is a more compact language syllable-wise. >> >> Common words like pearls >> Poetry flows with meaning >> Each line a fountain >> > > There was a young man of Hanshu > Who tried limericks in Haiku. > But I realized a better one while I was in the car. There once was an author named Steven Whose haiku were quite uneven. :-) From tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 17:05:36 2005 From: tenebrious_mockingbird at yahoo.com (Charlie Arnold) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:05:36 -0500 Subject: Haiku In-Reply-To: <7BF0A7C2-8526-11D9-9DB5-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001101c51943$cc3e37e0$6401a8c0@ansoft.com> Redneck Haiku Out front, pa's fixin' To get the Nova on blocks House got wheels, car don't -----Original Message----- From: Teddywolf [mailto:foodgod at pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:07 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Haiku On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:56 PM, Steve Brust wrote: > On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 14:28, Teddywolf wrote: > >> >> I've read that some consider haikus in English to be OK if they have >> fewer than the listed number of syllables for each line. The >> reasoning was, English is a more compact language syllable-wise. >> >> Common words like pearls >> Poetry flows with meaning >> Each line a fountain >> > > There was a young man of Hanshu > Who tried limericks in Haiku. > But Jesting in Haiku A study in silliness Whyfore we do this? From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 18:48:44 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:48:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218180353.GA25450@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20050223024844.26148.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Steve Simmons wrote: > Exactly so - he added the cedilla to the nameplate outside his office. > I don't recall the name of the resulting letter or even if it has a > separate name; heck, I couldn't remember 'cedilla' until you pointed > it out. "C-cedilla". Like "e-acute", "n-tilde" (which has its own name in Spanish, "ene" with a tilde over the n, because it's in the alphabet), and so on. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 18:56:09 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050218203951.16913.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223025609.28759.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Shannon Wimberly wrote: > On a more serious note, I had a(an?) Hungarian friend visit me with her child > Dani. I had always pronounced it DAN-ee, but she informed me it is pronounce > DAH-nee. Her second child will be named Able. Don't be fooled by the common > name. It's pronounced ah-BEL Then I hope it is spelled Abel, which is the usual English spelling of the name of Adam and Eve's second son, not Able. And regardless of what your Hungarian friend says, Americans will pronounce the names as "Danny" and "Abel" ("able") respectively. "My name is Rasdfqnrewoi34rht, pronounced Smith." Right. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Feb 22 18:59:45 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 03:59:45 +0100 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050223025609.28759.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: >"My name is Rasdfqnrewoi34rht, pronounced Smith." Right. > "No, no. It's spelled "Raymond Luxury Yacht," but it's pronounced "Throat Wobbler Mangrove." Monty Python, of course. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 19:00:06 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:00:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <39A3CB47.0811345C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050223030006.68329.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/18/2005 4:18:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ginnilee p > berger writes: > > > Ginnilee > > Lady Lavender of Teal, who actually *owns* the tshirt saying, > > "English doesn't borrow from other languages, it follows them > > down dark alley, mugs them and goes through their pockets for > > loose grammar" > > Is it attributed correctly? And does the back have the > corollary about giving candy to unsuspecting creoles? Oh, I LIKE that corollary! Is it yours, Konrad? Us wants it for our .ssssig file, preciousssss! -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From alexx at panix.com Tue Feb 22 19:01:22 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:01:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050223025609.28759.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Mark A. Mandel" at Feb 22, 2005 06:56:09 PM Message-ID: <200502230301.j1N31Mh12664@panix1.panix.com> > "My name is Rasdfqnrewoi34rht, pronounced Smith." Right. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] OK, how much work *was* it to get a dictation program to produce that word up there? Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Take THAT and THAT and THAT and THAT! HA! I warned you, didn't I? Didn't I WARN you? I thought I warned you. I didn't? Oh, sorry." From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Feb 22 19:25:45 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:25:45 -0800 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050223025609.28759.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502230325.j1N3PmTi021981@smtp.ucsd.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark A. Mandel [mailto:thnidu at yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:56 PM > To: Shannon Wimberly; Dragaera list > Subject: Re: evolution in language: OT.now on topic > > > --- Shannon Wimberly wrote: > > > On a more serious note, I had a(an?) Hungarian friend visit me with > > her child Dani. I had always pronounced it DAN-ee, but she > informed > > me it is pronounce DAH-nee. Her second child will be named Able. > > Don't be fooled by the common name. It's pronounced ah-BEL > > Then I hope it is spelled Abel, which is the usual English > spelling of the name of Adam and Eve's second son, not Able. > > And regardless of what your Hungarian friend says, Americans > will pronounce the names as "Danny" and "Abel" ("able") respectively. > > "My name is Rasdfqnrewoi34rht, pronounced Smith." Right. > > -- Mark > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > I just want to know how you were able to get "Rasdfqnrewoi34rht" out in Dragon. I'm amazed that you could pronounce it, and that Dragon could recognize it. Gee, software sure has evolved. :} Shawn From asr at ufl.edu Tue Feb 22 19:59:11 2005 From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:59:11 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:25:45 PST." <200502230325.j1N3PmTi021981@smtp.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <200502230359.j1N3xBlc163868@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> ==> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:25:45 -0800, "Shawn Burns" said: > I just want to know how you were able to get "Rasdfqnrewoi34rht" out in > Dragon. I'm amazed that you could pronounce it, and that Dragon could > recognize it. Gee, software sure has evolved. :} He just said the phonemes 'Smith' twice. The software figured it out. - Allen S. Rout From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 23 04:25:09 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:25:09 -0500 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050223024844.26148.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050223024844.26148.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421C7625.90703@earthlink.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >--- Steve Simmons wrote: > > > >>Exactly so - he added the cedilla to the nameplate outside his office. >>I don't recall the name of the resulting letter or even if it has a >>separate name; heck, I couldn't remember 'cedilla' until you pointed >>it out. >> >> > >"C-cedilla". Like "e-acute", "n-tilde" (which has its own name in Spanish, >"ene" with a tilde over the n, because it's in the alphabet), and so on. > > Thanks, Mark; that had been bugging me for a long time now. An amusing aside, in Spanish, tilde is the accent mark that goes over a vowel to indicate emphasis, which is why when I first learned of the tilde key on an American layout keyboard, I was greatly confused. How am I supposed to cheat in Doom and Quake if I can't find this tilde key?! Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 23 04:36:53 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:36:53 -0700 Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic References: <20050223024844.26148.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <421C7625.90703@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Marquez" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:25 AM Subject: Re: evolution in language: OT.now on topic > Thanks, Mark; that had been bugging me for a long time now. An amusing > aside, in Spanish, tilde is the accent mark that goes over a vowel to > indicate emphasis, which is why when I first learned of the tilde key on > an American layout keyboard, I was greatly confused. How am I supposed > to cheat in Doom and Quake if I can't find this tilde key?! > > Jose > Doom: IDKFA Quake: ~ IMPULSE 9 IMPULSE 255 Lets rock. ;) Jeff G. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 23 05:07:39 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:07:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic Message-ID: <18326902.1109164059771.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Jeff G. wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jose Marquez" >To: "Dragaera" >Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:25 AM >Subject: Re: evolution in language: OT.now on topic > >> Thanks, Mark; that had been bugging me for a long time now. An amusing >> aside, in Spanish, tilde is the accent mark that goes over a vowel to >> indicate emphasis, which is why when I first learned of the tilde key on >> an American layout keyboard, I was greatly confused. How am I supposed >> to cheat in Doom and Quake if I can't find this tilde key?! >> >> Jose >> > >Doom: >IDKFA > >Quake: >~ >IMPULSE 9 >IMPULSE 255 > Actually, my favorite is in Team Fortress Quake: temp1 1024. Nothing was more entertaining than grappling to the "sky" and sniping down, getting fragged and switching to Medic, and then poisoning enemies in suicide axe attacks... *sigh* The good ol' days. So the language in this thread has really evolved, eh? Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed Feb 23 06:20:18 2005 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:20:18 -0500 Subject: Haiku / meta-limericks In-Reply-To: <1109112961.1490.155.camel@localhost> References: <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> <0550F498-8521-11D9-A424-000A27AC189E@pobox.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20050223091740.00b87620@camail2.harvard.edu> At 02:56 PM 2/22/2005 -0800, Steve Brust wrote: >There was a young man of Hanshu >Who tried limericks in Haiku. >But Ahh... meta-limericks. Here are my favorites There was a young girl from Perdue Who's limericks all stopped on line two ... There was a young man from Verdun Charley Sumner Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain. From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Wed Feb 23 07:11:46 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:11:46 +0100 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050223030006.68329.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <39A3CB47.0811345C.00048EA6@aol.com> <20050223030006.68329.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223151124.GE36563@weller-fahy.com> * Mark A. Mandel [2005-02-23 04:00 +0100]: > --- Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > Is it attributed correctly? And does the back have the > > corollary about giving candy to unsuspecting creoles? > > Oh, I LIKE that corollary! Is it yours, Konrad? Us wants it for our > .ssssig file, preciousssss! I just did some searching on google, and was unable to find an attribution for the original. Would someone please point me at the proper place to look? I like the idea behind the corollary, but what's the full text? Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Wed Feb 23 07:23:35 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:23:35 +0100 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <20050223151124.GE36563@weller-fahy.com> References: <39A3CB47.0811345C.00048EA6@aol.com> <20050223030006.68329.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050223151124.GE36563@weller-fahy.com> Message-ID: <20050223152313.GF36563@weller-fahy.com> * David J. Weller-Fahy [2005-02-23 16:11 +0100]: > * Mark A. Mandel [2005-02-23 04:00 +0100]: > > --- Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > Is it attributed correctly? And does the back have the > > > corollary about giving candy to unsuspecting creoles? > > > > Oh, I LIKE that corollary! Is it yours, Konrad? Us wants it for our > > .ssssig file, preciousssss! > > I just did some searching on google, and was unable to find an > [snip] Behold, ask and in the next 5-10 seconds a new google search will bear fruit! Anyway, I'm still interested in the full text of the corollary (if there is a full text). ;] Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Feb 23 08:07:03 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:07:03 +0000 Subject: A Linguistic Note Message-ID: <60616FBB.1B8071C0.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 2/23/2005 10:11:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, "David J. Weller-Fahy" writes: > I just did some searching on google, and was unable to find an > attribution for the original. Would someone please point me > at the proper place to look? I like the idea behind the > corollary, but what's the full text? Trying to find the original source... hrm, Google Groups isn't returning any hits prior to 2000, but I did find this link: http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/13/13-499.html which includes a link to the original article from 1990 (footnote 4). The corrolary: http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=b7hhm4%24qk1%241%40panix1.panix.com --KG From shannon3d at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 08:19:12 2005 From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <20050223025609.28759.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223161912.54991.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, it's spell Abel. The previous was a typo on my part. "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: --- Shannon Wimberly wrote: > On a more serious note, I had a(an?) Hungarian friend visit me with her child > Dani. I had always pronounced it DAN-ee, but she informed me it is pronounce > DAH-nee. Her second child will be named Able. Don't be fooled by the common > name. It's pronounced ah-BEL Then I hope it is spelled Abel, which is the usual English spelling of the name of Adam and Eve's second son, not Able. And regardless of what your Hungarian friend says, Americans will pronounce the names as "Danny" and "Abel" ("able") respectively. "My name is Rasdfqnrewoi34rht, pronounced Smith." Right. -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Feb 23 08:24:26 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:24:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050219091203.GA55258@weller-fahy.com> References: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050219091203.GA55258@weller-fahy.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote: @> * John Klein [2005-02-04 16:27 +0100]: @> > If only there were some way to combine these concepts... ah, wait! @> > Google can do it for me. Oh great Google, I beseech thee, tell me @> > about piano man (filk OR parody)! @> @> Hrm... I just tried that, and couldn't find that filk... URL please? Looks like the Google order changed. It's here: http://www.amiright.com/parody/70s/billyjoel106.shtml This is probably because amiright.com generated a new "Piano Man" parody. They seem to have... uh... a very large number of these. From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 23 09:35:41 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:35:41 -0500 Subject: irc help Message-ID: <56FECDE2.1D0C925B.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/22/2005 12:50:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark Landin writes: >Well to participate in IRC, you need an IRC client. mIRC >(www.mirc.org) is popular, but I use ViRC (www.visualirc.net). Once >you have a client, you can connect to the IRC server, get yourself a >nickname, and join a channel and start chatting. > Thank you everyone who helped me. I use my work laptop and my home/parents' computer is way, way, way too slow for this. Oh well. Thank you anyway. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Feb 23 09:38:59 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:38:59 -0500 Subject: uh oh Message-ID: <0C9BEA09.5E3098F6.00184D6D@aol.com> Uh, oh. Someone sent me cash and a name and home address, but I don't know what the e-mail is! If you sent me money and haven't recieved stickers yet, please e-mail me so I can update my papers and make sure everyone who wanted a sticker gets one. Oh yeah, I'll be putting back peoples orders on Friday. Come Monday, who ever wanted stickers who didn't order them before can do so. I already have a few takes...you know who you are (so order as many as you would like)! -C From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Wed Feb 23 22:41:29 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:41:29 +0100 Subject: A Linguistic Note In-Reply-To: <60616FBB.1B8071C0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <60616FBB.1B8071C0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050224064107.GG36563@weller-fahy.com> * Gaertk at aol.com [2005-02-23 17:07 +0100]: > The corrolary: > > http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=b7hhm4%24qk1%241%40panix1.panix.com Ah-hah! Thanks, now I can add it to my quotes file all nice and attributed. ;] Thanks again! Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Wed Feb 23 22:46:30 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:46:30 +0100 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: References: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050219091203.GA55258@weller-fahy.com> Message-ID: <20050224064608.GH36563@weller-fahy.com> * John Klein [2005-02-23 17:24 +0100]: > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote: > @> Hrm... I just tried that, and couldn't find that filk... URL please? > > Looks like the Google order changed. It's here: Hate it when it does that. ;] > http://www.amiright.com/parody/70s/billyjoel106.shtml > > This is probably because amiright.com generated a new "Piano Man" parody. > They seem to have... uh... a very large number of these. Apparently my google-fu is on a downcycle... haven't been able to find anything these days. Thanks! Regards, -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 23 22:56:39 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <20050224064608.GH36563@weller-fahy.com> References: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050219091203.GA55258@weller-fahy.com> <20050224064608.GH36563@weller-fahy.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, David J. Weller-Fahy wrote: > > Apparently my google-fu is on a downcycle... haven't been able to find > anything these days. Thanks! I too have been finding it difficult to google lately - maybe the signal-to-noise has fallen with the web's explosive growth. The following wouldn't help you with this particular problem, but perhaps with the next: http://www.google.com/help/cheatsheet.html From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Thu Feb 24 07:57:36 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:57:36 +0100 Subject: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: References: <20050204034658.38860.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050219091203.GA55258@weller-fahy.com> <20050224064608.GH36563@weller-fahy.com> Message-ID: <20050224155714.GJ36563@weller-fahy.com> * Philip Hart [2005-02-24 07:56 +0100]: > The following wouldn't help you with this particular problem, > but perhaps with the next: > > http://www.google.com/help/cheatsheet.html Thanks, that'll help. ;] -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 19:55:55 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:55:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <200502230301.j1N31Mh12664@panix1.panix.com> Message-ID: <20050226035555.59995.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Alexx Kay wrote: > > "My name is Rasdfqnrewoi34rht, pronounced Smith." Right. > > > > -- Mark > > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > OK, how much work *was* it to get a dictation program to produce that > word up there? I didn't even try. I was dragging my fingers across the keyboard. But I could've said "spell" [a command, with a pause after it] and then spelled it. Or, since the spelling is totally weird, used the alpha-bravo alphabet (or any of several others, but when I worked at Dragon that was the first one we used, so it's the one I know): cap Romeo alpha sierra delta ... > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. > alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx > "Take THAT and THAT and THAT and THAT! HA! I warned you, didn't I? > Didn't I WARN you? I thought I warned you. I didn't? Oh, sorry." --mark by hand (natspeak problems tonight) I am Mark Mandel's computer and I approve this message. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 20:00:35 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:00:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <200502230359.j1N3xBlc163868@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu> Message-ID: <20050226040035.61299.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- asr at ufl.edu wrote: Y'know, to some of us "asr" used to mean "automatic speech recognition". > ==> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:25:45 -0800, "Shawn Burns" > said: > > > > I just want to know how you were able to get "Rasdfqnrewoi34rht" out in > > Dragon. I'm amazed that you could pronounce it, and that Dragon could > > recognize it. Gee, software sure has evolved. :} > > > He just said the phonemes 'Smith' twice. The software figured it out. No, if I wanted to use it more than once I would 1. decide how to pronounce it 2. work out a written approximation in English words or spelling 3. add the word to my vocabulary with that approximation as the pronunciation 4. train the pronunciation. Hey, how d'ya think I can dictate bits of kifish, Klingon, and the Hero's Tongue (hakkikt, Do'Ha', kzinti)? - mark by hand tonight __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 20:06:06 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:06:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in language: OT.now on topic In-Reply-To: <421C7625.90703@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050226040606.55050.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jose Marquez wrote: > Thanks, Mark; that had been bugging me for a long time now. An amusing > aside, in Spanish, tilde is the accent mark that goes over a vowel to > indicate emphasis, which is why when I first learned of the tilde key on > an American layout keyboard, I was greatly confused. How am I supposed > to cheat in Doom and Quake if I can't find this tilde key?! HUH?? Well, since you're talking about your native language and you're fully literate in it, I have to assume you're right, but when I read that I thought you were confusing the tilde (~) with the acute accent (' or ?, like a / above the letter; "acento escrito" en espan~ol se me recuerdo). What do you mean about emphasis? Like underlining in handwritten English? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thnidu at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 20:11:54 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <00BA55D9.67C16086.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050226041154.34046.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > Like "wicked." It really means something evil (or to that effect), but the > way I, and many New Englanders, use it is to mean something like, "very" or > "extremely," only meant more than exteme (if that makes sense) (wicked cold, > wicked awesome). Many years ago I was having lunch with friends in the company cafeteria. One woman started ranting against "wicked good", about how it was intrinsically contradictory and shouldn't be used and was corrupting the language. I thought a bit while she was talking, and then I said, "Oh, I don't know. I kind of like it. I think it's pretty good. In fact, I think it's awful nice." ... She literally stopped, freeze-frame, with a forkful of food in midair en route to her mouth. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Fri Feb 25 21:32:00 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 00:32:00 EST Subject: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores! Message-ID: <15.3f65ce3f.2f5163d0@aol.com> Hi, http://www.tor.com/schedule.html says Sethra Lavode paperback release date March 2005. Today, February, 25, 2005, the Borders website said my local Borders store had Sethra Lavode in paperback. It had not been at the Books-a-Million that I was at today. A phone call to Borders and after a little mix up with trying to find Sephra Lavode on his computer, the nice gentleman verified that the paperback version of Sethra Lavode is really in a store and not just an entry in a computer. I guess the paperbacks will be showing up in the other bookstores over the weekend or in March sometime. ********************************************************* There are people who have not read Sethra Lavode yet and there are also new readers in the future. Please remember, if your email might spoil something, to put the word SPOILER in your subject line and/or include > SPOILER space > > in the top of your email/posting. or you can always be cryptic. Like hmmm, maybe Paarfi is telling the truth, but he is being fooled just like the Jhereg is being fooled. Bye. Linda G. From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Feb 26 05:32:59 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:32:59 -0500 Subject: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores! Message-ID: <01E63905.6A1AA242.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/26/2005 12:32:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >Hi, > >http://www.tor.com/schedule.html says Sethra Lavode paperback >release date March 2005. > >Today, February, 25, 2005, the Borders website said my local >Borders store had Sethra Lavode in paperback. ?It had not been >at the Books-a-Million that I was at today. > >A phone call to Borders and after a little mix up with trying >to find Sephra Lavode on his computer, the nice gentleman >verified that the paperback version of Sethra Lavode is >really in a store and not just an entry in a computer. > >I guess the paperbacks will be showing up in the other >bookstores over the weekend or in March sometime. > >******* AAhhhhhhh!! I have to go buy it now! Wa Hoo!! **tripple back flips across room** (right, like I could do that or even have the space :o) -C ************************************************** >There are people who have not read Sethra Lavode yet and >there are also new readers in the future. ?Please remember, >if your email might spoil something, to put the word >SPOILER in your subject line and/or include >> SPOILER space >> >> in the top of your email/posting. > >or you can always be cryptic. ?Like hmmm, maybe Paarfi >is telling the truth, but he is being fooled just like >the Jhereg is being fooled. ? > >Bye. > >Linda G. > From MedCat7 at aol.com Sat Feb 26 06:01:39 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:01:39 -0500 Subject: shame Message-ID: <65BC4F31.5CBD9AFE.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok, I now have 25 stickers left to sell. Some people already claimed the ones people didn't buy. Now is your chance to buy one if you did not already. If you still want you stickers and I terminated you order, you can get them back, but they are still limited. There were 4 people alone who had $10 orders. See what I mean by how it adds up when people don't pay up. 9 people out of 27 of the original did not pay. You all know who you are and you have been shamed for it. I will not give out your names unless you want to confess to the list 'cause you have a guilty conscience. :o) -Crystal From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat Feb 26 08:19:16 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:19:16 -0500 Subject: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores! In-Reply-To: <15.3f65ce3f.2f5163d0@aol.com> References: <15.3f65ce3f.2f5163d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226111854.034e22c0@pop.east.cox.net> What was the spoiler? I didn't see anything. At 00:32 02/26/2005, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >Hi, > >http://www.tor.com/schedule.html says Sethra Lavode paperback >release date March 2005. > >Today, February, 25, 2005, the Borders website said my local >Borders store had Sethra Lavode in paperback. It had not been >at the Books-a-Million that I was at today. > >A phone call to Borders and after a little mix up with trying >to find Sephra Lavode on his computer, the nice gentleman >verified that the paperback version of Sethra Lavode is >really in a store and not just an entry in a computer. > >I guess the paperbacks will be showing up in the other >bookstores over the weekend or in March sometime. > >********************************************************* >There are people who have not read Sethra Lavode yet and >there are also new readers in the future. Please remember, >if your email might spoil something, to put the word >SPOILER in your subject line and/or include > > SPOILER space > > > > in the top of your email/posting. > >or you can always be cryptic. Like hmmm, maybe Paarfi >is telling the truth, but he is being fooled just like >the Jhereg is being fooled. > >Bye. > >Linda G. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 09:15:48 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:15:48 +0000 Subject: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores! In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050226111854.034e22c0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: This is further proof that I have some really weird spidey-sense that Steve's books have been put out in paperback. I remember a few times when I just happened to go to the book store after a long time of not being there, only to find a new S.B. book (Orca, Dragon) had been released that very day, or the day before. Dragon was a particular pleasure for me, because I was so absorbed in my studies at the time that I had no idea whatsoever that it was coming out... Anyway, I went into the bookstore yesterday and found _SL_ in paperback. Now I find out that once again, it was the paperback release date. Can someone be so addicted to something that they develop preternatural senses informing them of the earliest available opportunity that one can get another fix? Jon From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Feb 26 09:47:59 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:47:59 EST Subject: The Man from Shemhaza (SPOILERS) Message-ID: <1e4.35dd9190.2f52104f@aol.com> >SPOILER SPACE > For Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune > short story by Steven Brust > The Man from Shemhaza > > > > > Hi, You shouldn't be reading these emails/postings until after you have read the story once and maybe twice looking for things. > > > melalvai (Rachel) wrote on Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:06:26 -0600 >Mr. Brust usually does us the kindness to put in clues for the >unexpected, which are meaningless at the time but after you get >surprised you suddenly go "ah ha! That's what that meant!" But sometimes these clues are from other books in the River of Sleep. I mean Vladiad and the Paariad. I think the clues are in The Man from Shemhaza, but they still seem meaningless for now. Chris Olson wrote on Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:23:24 -0800 >Hmm...I'll read it again and look for clues, but the lack of them >doesn't mean it's a bad story, or even that one need read other >Thieves' World stories to understand. ... >I thought it was grand, took me by surprise, and loved every second >of shock I felt. I agree. Hi, Thank you for putting the word SPOILER in the subject line. I did not even risk opening the emails. I was actually thinking about reading the whole book first too. But then I couldn't read your emails for a while. So I went ahead and read it. After the shock, the thought was Auggh, totally evil guy...don't know if I want to read stories about a totally evil guy...it does not seem like Steven to create a character that is totally evil. So then I could read your emails. So I reread the story again looking for clues. Now maybe these aren't clues and maybe they are meaningless. "'Can't help it,' I said grinning. 'That's the beauty of the cresca; it's a naturally happy instrument.'" Seemed like an odd answer to the question. The Song "The Man from Shemhaza" is a study in contradictions, impossibilities and two-sidedness (Is that a word?). Plenty of clues there...if they mean anything. "One who follows the Old Ways" "I screamed a whisper, if you can imagine such a thing. 'Put it away. Now!'" Someone stopped grinning along the way. Smiled after that. After three days, a chuckle. Okay, maybe there was not much to smile about at that point. But, I am pretty sure the grinning stopped. And look it was *three* days. "I don't remember telling you about it." "but how are you going to survive keeping it?" "after years of work" Couldn't he have just done what the other person did? See there is something else going on. "the warmth I felt from it filled my soul." Does that help, Rachel? I thought it was nice that Steven had created a character whose short name was a registered trademark...then at the end I thought it was not so nice. I wondered what it meant. I wonder if those at the registered trademark wondered too. Hopefully, Steven will write further stories about The Man from Shemhaza. Based on Liavek, there is a good chance that may happen and therefore you should really read this story sometime. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Feb 26 10:00:14 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:00:14 EST Subject: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores! Message-ID: <198.397d03f5.2f52132e@aol.com> Peter H. Granzeau wrote on Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:19:16 -0500 >What was the spoiler? I didn't see anything. Hi, No spoiler. I was just trying to remind everyone about it being so helpful to indicate when an email might spoil something. People do not understand me at work either. Also, I cannot seem to say Sethra Lavode and have people understand. I have to go use the Dragaera pronunciation guide some more. On Spoiler space: For example, it was helpful to me recently to see the email subject line say "Re: The Man from Shemhaza (SPOILERS)". Therefore, I knew not to read the email before I had read the short story. And then I sometimes worry about Dragaera search (which I think needs to be reindexed or something because recent? postings are not showing up) finding things...so I put * in words. For example: Tor would be typed like T*r. Being cryptic is more fun. As in not even mentioning Tor by writing "registered trademark" instead. Of course, that may be part of the reason people do not understand me. Bye. Linda G. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 11:13:29 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:13:29 +0100 Subject: Spoilers was:RE: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores In-Reply-To: <198.397d03f5.2f52132e@aol.com> Message-ID: Linda G. wrote: > >Being cryptic is more fun. As in not even mentioning Tor >by writing "registered trademark" instead. Of course, >that may be part of the reason people do not understand me. > Personally I prefer it if people just write what they mean. I prefer: >SPOILER for Jhereg > > >It was Mellar wot did it! instead of: >Oh, you know that early book, with him kinda old guy, with a plan? Y'know? Cheers /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From howard at brazee.net Sat Feb 26 14:34:40 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:34:40 -0700 Subject: Spoilers was:RE: February 25, 2005-Sethra Lavode paperback version in bookstores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c51c53$5caad510$667ba8c0@Dad133> I'm a proponent of using spoiler warnings on newsgroups. But what consists of "current" depends upon the newsgroup. Also how much of a spoiler it is makes a difference: There are particular elements of the books that are more of spoilers than others. So I will still *spoiler* references to the end of _Orca_. But not to the end of the much more recent _Issola_. That ending isn't nearly as much of a spoiler to those who haven't read everything before. In a golf newsgroup, today's PGA results require a spoiler, yesterday's don't. In a movie newsgroup, if the movie has only been out for 2-3 months, I add a spoiler. In a SF newsgroup, I wait until the paperback is out for 2-3 months. In a list server designed around one subset of books by one author - I wait until the hardback has been out 2-3 months. But that's silly - why would someone subscribe to this list server if they were able to wait that long to read the book? From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Feb 26 17:14:29 2005 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (melalvai at kemenel.org) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:14:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Man from Shemhaza (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <1e4.35dd9190.2f52104f@aol.com> References: <1e4.35dd9190.2f52104f@aol.com> Message-ID: <1217.12.217.37.34.1109466869.spork@webmail.kemenel.org> >>SPOILER SPACE >> For Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune >> short story by Steven Brust >> The Man from Shemhaza > melalvai (Rachel) wrote on Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:06:26 -0600 > >>Mr. Brust usually does us the kindness to put in clues for the >>unexpected, which are meaningless at the time but after you get >>surprised you suddenly go "ah ha! That's what that meant!" > Linda wrote: > Hi, > > Thank you for putting the word SPOILER in the subject line. I did > not even risk opening the emails. Seems like that particular warning helped out others. I sure knew it was necessary! > The Song "The Man from Shemhaza" is a study in contradictions, > impossibilities and two-sidedness (Is that a word?). Plenty of clues > there...if they mean anything. Ah. Now it all makes perfect sense. Now I feel like the person who has to have the joke explained to her. > Does that help, Rachel? Immensely. > I thought it was nice that Steven had created a character whose short > name was a registered trademark...then at the end I thought it was > not so nice. I wondered what it meant. I wonder if those at > the registered trademark wondered too. I caught that! I did!! Ok, I have to tell an embarrassing story about my legendary (and inherited) obtuseness. My daughter & I participated in a Toddler Injury Study years ago (when she was a toddler). Part of the study required us to visit them for an interview. They put us in a waiting room that was clearly not designed with toddlers in mind for 20 minutes. Turns out, that WAS the interview. We were videotaped and it was designed to be as boring as possible and contain many things that would be dangerous for a toddler to play with (only they had been modified so they weren't really dangerous). I was so excited because I had noticed one of them! There was a lamp with a huge lightbulb and I thought that would be awfully hot if it were turned on. My pride was deflated enormously when I learned there were FIFTEEN dangerous things, including a big old butcher knife (with its edge dulled--but it didn't matter; I hadn't even SEEN it). It's a wonder either of us survived so long (like I said, I came by my obtuseness fairly, and have done my duty in passing it along). > Hopefully, Steven will write further stories about The Man from > Shemhaza. Based on Liavek, there is a good chance that may happen > and therefore you should really read this story sometime. I have the Liaveks, and will read them now. Thanks! Rachel From bryann at bryann.net Sat Feb 26 17:48:44 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:48:44 -0600 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <200502270148.j1R1mU1r021193@bryann.net> Book of Taltos pg 313-314 - The emperor sits apart and watches all that goes on to ... fend off the disasters that our world tries to throw at us from time to time--disasters you can hardly conceive of. I assure you, for example, that the stories of the ground shaking and fire spitting forth from it and winds that carried people off during the Interregnum are not myths, but things that would happen were it not for the Orb. The Lord of Castle Black pg 44-45 - Lord Drien was known to have favored extravagant plans of all sorts, and was better than usual in carrying them out. In this case, his idea was for a series of towers, anchored in [Nacine] to serve as a center of communication between the coast to the south, the Shallow Sea to the east, the Adrilankha River to the west, and Dzur Mountain to the north ... The Vallista, however, had barely begun their work when Dzur Mountain, some seventy or eighty miles north, had unexpectedly erupted, either because of the arcane activities of the Enchantress or in spite of them. The eruption had resulted in a remarkable flow of lava, which, in turn, resulted in the [Hightower Brook] becoming blocked to such an extent that it was no longer suitable for navigation ... [Later] Drien [died] and the Cycle had turned, bringing to preeminence a Lyorn Emperor. The first passage suggests that natural disasters are prevented by the Orb, but the second suggests that towards the end of some previous Dragon reign (prior to a Lyorn reign, so long before the Interregnum... Alexx dates it at 197,000 BI), Dzur Mountain erupted. If the Orb prevents natural disasters, why wasn't the eruption at Dzur Mountain prevented? Especially since it appears to have caused quite a bit of damage. It seems to me that either the Orb couldn't, or the Emperor/Empress chose not to stop it... Set that aside for a moment. The other odd detail about this eruption is that it seems to have occurred in a different "part" of Dzur Mountain than most other references to Dzur Mountain. For example: The Lord of Castle Black pg 47 - not fifteen miles from [Nacine] are the ruins of a castle that once floated above this district [future home of Castle Black] The Lord of Castle Black pg 182,197 - The distance from [the future home of Castle Black] to Dzur Mountain was not long--only some forty or forty-five miles Nacine to Morrolan's Encampment is about 15 miles, and Dzur Mountain is 40 or 45 miles from there, so at its furthest, Dzur Mountain should be 55 to 60 miles from Nacine, not 70 or 80 miles. Of course, Dzur Mountain *is* a (presumably large) mountain, so this discrepancy is not in and of itself a problem, but consider one more passage: The Paths of the Dead pg 335-336 - there was a remarkable sight some five hundred leagues to the south and a little west [from Deathgate Falls] ... in the western part of the duchy of Arylle [the Necromancer appears, and travels] the twenty leagues [to] Dzur Mountain ... from the north and the east, which permitted a more gentle, gradual ascent up that part of the mountain that resembled the tail of the great cat, and then along its back until, reaching its head, she came around to the west in order to climb that which can be called its face This suggests that Dzur Mountain "faces" south or southwest. So perhaps the eruption occurred at the "rear" of Dzur Mountain, 10 to 25 miles north/northeast of the "head". That's about as far as reasonable speculation goes, and this is the reasoning I'm using on the geography project. If you're willing to make the plunge into unreasonable speculation, it occurred to me that the above fits in nicely with the suggestion made on this list (I'm sorry, I don't remember who made it) that Dzur Mountain might be some kind of spacecraft. One would presume the engines would be in the rear, so perhaps the "eruption" was actually the firing of its engines? Bryan From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Feb 27 09:21:54 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:21:54 -0500 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <200502270148.j1R1mU1r021193@bryann.net> References: <200502270148.j1R1mU1r021193@bryann.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050227122015.034e9eb0@pop.east.cox.net> At 20:48 02/26/2005, Bryan Newell wrote: >Book of Taltos pg 313-314 I keep seeing this kind of attribution. I assume it's a compendium of 2 or more of the Vlad Taltos novels. How about telling us just which of the individual novels you are quoting from? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Feb 27 11:30:16 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:30:16 EST Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <75.3fe58eb1.2f5379c8@aol.com> Bryan Newell wrote on Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:48:44 -0600 >Book of Taltos pg 313-314 - The emperor sits apart and watches all that goes >on to ... fend off the disasters that our world tries to throw at us from >time to time--disasters you can hardly conceive of. I assure you, for >example, that the stories of the ground shaking and fire spitting forth from >it and winds that carried people off during the Interregnum are not myths, >but things that would happen were it not for the Orb. In Response Peter H. Granzeau wrote on Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:21:54 -0500 >Book of Taltos pg 313-314 >>I keep seeing this kind of attribution. I assume it's a compendium of 2 or >>more of the Vlad Taltos novels. How about telling us just which of the >>individual novels you are quoting from? Hi, That is why I started typing The Book of Taltos, Phoenix, Lesson 11, pg 313-314 I think it is also useful to mention the Chapter or Lesson number, as the hardback and paperback page numbers can be different. Sometimes, if I have the paperback, I will go and check that the text is the same in both books. If I do that, I will include the page numbers >from that book too. Steven has corrected little things. I cannot find my copy of Phoenix. Pete, is the text (outside of the ...) quoted the same in Phoenix? I am wondering if the Orb could do much protecting before it was upgraded? If it could, why did the Orb not fix the drought that was taking place in Five Hundred Years After (paperback, Chapter the First, pg. 15)? Pete, on Mark's wonderful website CracksandShards.com, he has a listing of the Chapters and the page numbers for the paperbacks and the trade paperbacks/omnibus editions. But, it is easier if the person posting would just include as much information as possible. http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/contentsV.html The Book of Jhereg has the cover of Jhereg on it and includes Jhereg, Yendi and Teckla. Paperback, about 9 inches by 6 inches. The Book of Taltos has the cover of Taltos and includes Taltos and Phoenix. The Book of Athyra has the cover of Athyra and includes Athyra and Orca. They are all still in print and hopefully, will continue to be. It seems like my local Barnes and Noble tries to keep one set on the shelf. On this page, Mark has links to the books on Amazon.com. http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/books.html Bye. Linda G. From bryann at bryann.net Sun Feb 27 15:35:26 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:35:26 -0600 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050227122015.034e9eb0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <200502272335.j1RNZA1r005940@bryann.net> > >Book of Taltos pg 313-314 > > I keep seeing this kind of attribution. I assume it's a > compendium of 2 or more of the Vlad Taltos novels. How about > telling us just which of the individual novels you are quoting from? The compendium is the only version I have, so I don't have access to page numbers for the individual paperbacks or hardcover editions. I compiled all the geography quotes into a database for easy reference, and unfortunately, I didn't include the individual book and/or chapter from the compendium, which might help you narrow it down a bit more. Since I have nearly 500 quotes in my database, it will be quite a chore to go back and reindex them all in any more detail. On second thought, it'd be easy enough to write a program to reindex them by page number, as in: Book of Jhereg, pgs 1-173 = Jhereg Book of Jhereg, pgs 174-317 = Yendi Book of Jhereg, pgs 318-471 = Teckla I just noticed Linda's response, she mentions listing the chapters might help, I can do those easily enough by page number as well. Thanks for the suggestion (to both of you). Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Sun Feb 27 15:53:29 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:53:29 -0600 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <75.3fe58eb1.2f5379c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <200502272353.j1RNrC1r006025@bryann.net> > >Book of Taltos pg 313-314 - The emperor sits apart and > watches all that > >goes on to ... fend off the disasters that our world tries > to throw at > >us from time to time--disasters you can hardly conceive of. I assure > >you, for example, that the stories of the ground shaking and fire > >spitting forth from it and winds that carried people off during the > >Interregnum are not myths, but things that would happen were > it not for the Orb. > > I am wondering if the Orb could do much protecting before it > was upgraded? > If it could, why did the Orb not fix the drought that was > taking place in Five Hundred Years After (paperback, Chapter > the First, pg. 15)? Zerika says that the disasters Vlad has heard of occurred during the Interregnum, so my assumption was that the Orb protected against these before it as well. As to your second question, I wonder if a drought is the same kind of natural disaster she is referring to. A drought can be countered by bringing in food from areas not affected, and starving takes some time, so while it might qualify as an economic disaster, it's not really as much of a threat to life and limb as the others, is it? Eruptions, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc, are "instantaneous" phenomena (although to be fair, both eruptions and earthquakes are the result of thousands of years of build-up--I'm not really sure how one would go about preventing them), whereas preventing a drought might require nearly complete and continuous climate control over the whole of the Empire. If the Orb is capable of *that*, I'd think it could do something about the overcast. Speaking of which, has there been much debate on this list as to the *purpose* of the overcast? It just occurred to me that perhaps it serves some useful function. I vaguely recall from playing SimEarth that the composition of the atmosphere controlled how much cosmic radiation gets through to the surface, which in turn affects the rate of genetic mutation (I don't know the veracity of this line of argument, that's just how I remember SimEarth working). Perhaps the overcast helps keep dragaerans from evolving as quickly? Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Sun Feb 27 16:47:15 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:47:15 -0600 Subject: Page Number References (was RE: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200502272335.j1RNZA1r005940@bryann.net> Message-ID: <200502280047.j1S0kw1r007016@bryann.net> > > >Book of Taltos pg 313-314 > > > > I keep seeing this kind of attribution. I assume it's a > compendium of > > 2 or more of the Vlad Taltos novels. How about telling us > just which > > of the individual novels you are quoting from? > > On second thought, it'd be easy enough to write a program to > reindex them by page number, as in: > > Book of Jhereg, pgs 1-173 = Jhereg > Book of Jhereg, pgs 174-317 = Yendi > Book of Jhereg, pgs 318-471 = Teckla > Well, after mapping out the chapters in Jhereg, I decided I really wasn't up to converting all my references for all 15 novels to be chapter-specific, but I did convert the three compendiums to show the individual book as follows: Jhereg (Book of Jhereg 1-173) Yendi (Book of Jhereg 174-317) Teckla (Book of Jhereg 318-471) Taltos (Book of Taltos 1-174) Phoenix (Book of Taltos 175-389) Athyra (Book of Athyra 1-208) Orca (Book of Athyra 209-436) I included the page numbers so you could at least have an idea of how far into each book each reference was, so the quote at the top will now print as: Phoenix (Book of Taltos 175-389) pg 313-314 - ... So this should be *around* page 138 or about two-thirds of the way through the book. Hopefully this will make it a little easier to track these quotes down regardless of which print you have access to. Speaking of prints, does anyone know if there is a plan to release a "Book of Dragon" (Dragon + Issola)? Or were the compendiums released just to get the books back into print after Steve switched publishers? I noticed from Mark's site (thanks, Linda) that there was a bookclub printing of these two novels together. I've been waiting to buy Dragon/Issola hoping a matching compendium would be released. Bryan From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Feb 27 16:57:01 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:57:01 -0600 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <200502272353.j1RNrC1r006025@bryann.net> References: <75.3fe58eb1.2f5379c8@aol.com> <200502272353.j1RNrC1r006025@bryann.net> Message-ID: <20050228005701.GC3214@infodancer.org> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 05:53:29PM -0600, Bryan Newell wrote: > Eruptions, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc, are "instantaneous" phenomena > (although to be fair, both eruptions and earthquakes are the result of > thousands of years of build-up--I'm not really sure how one would go about > preventing them), whereas preventing a drought might require nearly complete > and continuous climate control over the whole of the Empire. > > If the Orb is capable of *that*, I'd think it could do something about the > overcast. How do you know that the overcast isn't what the Orb is doing to prevent drought? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 07:50:06 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:50:06 -0700 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain References: <200502270148.j1R1mU1r021193@bryann.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Newell" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 6:48 PM Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain > If the Orb prevents natural disasters, why wasn't the eruption at Dzur > Mountain prevented? Especially since it appears to have caused quite a bit > of damage. > > It seems to me that either the Orb couldn't, or the Emperor/Empress chose > not to stop it... Set that aside for a moment. > Not sure of the book, but there is a reference to Iceflame that states the only other artifacts that can match it are the Orb, and Godslayer. If Sethra caused the eruption, then concentrated Iceflames power on blocking the Orb. . . > > If you're willing to make the plunge into unreasonable speculation, it > occurred to me that the above fits in nicely with the suggestion made on > this list (I'm sorry, I don't remember who made it) that Dzur Mountain might > be some kind of spacecraft. One would presume the engines would be in the > rear, so perhaps the "eruption" was actually the firing of its engines? > I don't care for the spacecraft speculation myself, I think it is more likely to be a Jenoine construct designed for experimentation with amorphea. Kind of an 8-track version of the Orb. (which would make the Orb an I-pod, I suppose) Jeff G From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 09:21:49 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:21:49 -0500 Subject: shame Message-ID: <627E1D82.0B4B397B.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/26/2005 1:58:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Grady Brandt writes: is there still a picture posted >somewhere on the net that I can get a look at? > I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone could help me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... thank you thank you. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 09:28:16 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:28:16 +0000 Subject: The Man from Shemhaza (SPOILERS) Message-ID: <628E48E6.61E317D8.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/26/2005 8:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, melalvai at kemenel.org writes: > > Now I feel like the person who has to >have the joke explained to her. > Hey! I resemble that remark! :o) :o) -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 09:59:48 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:59:48 -0500 Subject: Hungarian food (slightly OT) Message-ID: <29F9C7B0.6CC98FDA.00184D6D@aol.com> For the cooking guild for amtgard this weekend I made a dish called Hungarian Cabbage and Noodles. It consists of cabbage and noodles (duh), baccon and onions (yum yum), salt and pepper. Wicked easy to make and absolutly delicious! If anyone wants the recipie, let me know. And to make it slightly on topic, is there any dish like that Vlad eats? -C From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Feb 28 10:08:06 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:08:06 -0800 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) Message-ID: <42235E06.6050401@Sun.COM> (My apologies if this is a duplicate message--seems I'm having Mozilla problems this morning...:) MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >> I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone could help me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... thank you thank you. >> -C Found it, and it still works (at least for me:): http://209.8.23.203/Proofs/CrystalFradette-proof.htm As someone who has one on the back of his car, I'm quite pleased with it; even if the majority of the population "don't get it". Hehehe, Chris -- "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com Mon Feb 28 10:30:49 2005 From: dave-lists-dragaera at weller-fahy.com (David J. Weller-Fahy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:30:49 +0100 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: References: <200502270148.j1R1mU1r021193@bryann.net> Message-ID: <20050228183027.GD12996@weller-fahy.com> * Jeff G. [2005-02-28 16:50 +0100]: > I don't care for the spacecraft speculation myself, I think it is more > likely to be a Jenoine construct designed for experimentation with > amorphea. Kind of an 8-track version of the Orb. (which would make > the Orb an I-pod, I suppose) iOrb? Download your favorite personality tracks for only 89 cents each. ;] -- dave [ please don't CC me ] From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 10:34:46 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:34:46 -0700 Subject: Hungarian food (slightly OT) References: <29F9C7B0.6CC98FDA.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 10:59 AM Subject: Hungarian food (slightly OT) > For the cooking guild for amtgard this weekend I made a dish called Hungarian Cabbage and Noodles. It consists of cabbage and noodles (duh), baccon and onions (yum yum), salt and pepper. Wicked easy to make and absolutly delicious! If anyone wants the recipie, let me know. And to make it slightly on topic, is there any dish like that Vlad eats? > -C > Food is never off topic, IMHO. Post the recipe. Jeff G. From zarkon at illrepute.org Mon Feb 28 10:49:28 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:49:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: evolution in languege: OT In-Reply-To: <20050226041154.34046.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050226041154.34046.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: @> Many years ago I was having lunch with friends in the company @> cafeteria. One woman started ranting against "wicked good", about how @> it was intrinsically contradictory and shouldn't be used and was @> corrupting the language. I thought a bit while she was talking, and @> then I said, "Oh, I don't know. I kind of like it. I think it's pretty @> good. In fact, I think it's awful nice." ... She literally stopped, @> freeze-frame, with a forkful of food in midair en route to her mouth. You're my new hero. I'm storing that for future use. From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 11:43:10 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:43:10 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChXYXM6IFJlOiBzaGFtZSk=?= Message-ID: <059CFE09.5C27A9BF.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/2005 1:08:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chris Olson writes: >(My apologies if this is a duplicate message--seems I'm having Mozilla >problems this morning...:) > >MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >>> I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone could help >me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... thank >you thank you. >>> -C > > >Found it, and it still works (at least for me:): > >http://209.8.23.203/Proofs/CrystalFradette-proof.htm > >As someone who has one on the back of his car, I'm quite pleased with >it; even if the majority of the population "don't get it". > >Hehehe, >Chris > >-- >"Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you >in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > ? ?-Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > > My wife saw the stickers and said that I was an idiot and that it made no sense. I told her that you had to be there and that it was an inside joke. She told me that in that case I was a f*&*ing idiot. :) I can't disagree. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Feb 28 11:52:27 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:52:27 -0800 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) In-Reply-To: <059CFE09.5C27A9BF.0015B39F@aol.com> References: <059CFE09.5C27A9BF.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <4223767B.4090306@Sun.COM> Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > My wife saw the stickers and said that I was an idiot and that it made no sense. I told her that you had to be there and that it was an inside joke. She told me that in that case I was a f*&*ing idiot. :) I can't disagree. Heh. I have to disagree with your wife (though politely, of course:). It may be an inside joke, but the quote alone makes sense if you pause to consider it. Like Lady Teldra, it has a subtle irony one has to look for to see. Besides, it's true: most people generalize from one example. It's not our fault that subtle irony can be Truth, nor that Steve is wise enough to point it out. Anyway, I LIKE confusing people. It's Fun! :) Chris From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Feb 28 13:17:50 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:17:50 -0500 Subject: V.S.S. Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <19B94741.659B2697.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 2/27/2005 6:53:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bryan Newell" writes: > If the Orb is capable of *that*, I'd think it could do > something about the overcast. In FHYA, there is mention of Tortaalik investing in a business venture to sell a device that removes the Overcast. Adron used this as evidence that Tortaalik didn't deserve to be Emperor. --KG From MedCat7 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 14:10:07 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:10:07 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChXYXM6IFJlOiBzaGFtZSk=?= Message-ID: <74331617.0C0AEEEC.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/2005 2:52:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chris Olson writes: > >Anyway, I LIKE confusing people. ?It's Fun! > >:) >Chris Here here!! -C > > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 20:03:28 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:03:28 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Sticker=20Link=20=A0(Was:=20Re:=20shame)?= Message-ID: <25.5a213a00.2f554390@aol.com> >MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >>> I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone could help >me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... thank >you thank you. Hi Crystal, Past threads-- http://dragaera.info/ Click on mailing lists Click on the word archive on the Dragaera line. That will get you to http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1 Click on email that looks like one you posted. If it isn't yours, Click on the word <-thread-> to bring up all emails with same subject line. Click on one from MedCat7.aol.com Click on <- author -> and you can see every email you wrote. Then the hard part comes...finding the right one. There is also http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/ But it does not seem to be searching recent postings. Or even easier, someone nice like Chris Olson can search his emails and find the link (or however he found the link). Bato001.aol.com wrote Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:43:10 -0500 >>My wife saw the stickers and said that I was an idiot and that it made no >>sense. I told her that you had to be there and that it was an inside joke. >>She told me that in that case I was a f*&*ing idiot. :) I can't disagree. Hi John D. Barbato, O.D., Maybe you can read your wife some of Issola: Vlad, an Easterner (human), talking to Teldra, an (genetically- modified human) Issola: "'What are young Issola like?' Teldra flashed me a smile. 'Obsequious to the point of irritating, or else timid to the point of invisibility. What about young Easterners?' 'Brash, cocky, and convinced we can beat anything that walks, flies, or swims, and that we know all the answers to everything.' 'Rather like Dzur, then.' 'I guess. I'm generalizing from one example, here, but everyone generalized from one example. At least, I do.'" Issola, paperback, Chapter 14, page 211. Pause and see if you earn "actual chuckle" like Vlad did. If not, point out that Vlad, the Easterner (human), is using himself as the one example. Self deprecating humor, correct? Or tell her the bumper sticker is like a computer infinite loop or a circular argument. "Everyone generalizes from one example. At least I do." Or maybe you should not say anything about the bumper stickers anymore. I think you should *not* mention to your wife that you told us what she said. We do not want another Teckla/Phoenix to happen. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 20:25:02 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:25:02 EST Subject: Have I been bad? Message-ID: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> Hi, So I am in my local bookstore and see that Sethra Lavode is not in the section where *NEW* paperbacks are. Sethra Lavode is in the Sci Fi/Fantasy *NEW* section only. There are other Sci Fi/Fantasy books in the *NEW* paperback section. There is an empty slot in the *NEW* paperback section. There are plenty of Sethra Lavode books in the Sci Fi/Fantasy *NEW* section. I take two Sethra Lavode paperbacks and put them in the empty slot in the *NEW* paperbacks section near another Sci Fi/Fantasy book. I also take one Sethra Lavode paperback and put it with the other Brust books so that you could see the front (not just the side) cover. Therefore, someone not looking in the *NEW* sections could see it. So, have I been bad? Bye. Linda G. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 28 20:34:29 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:34:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Have I been bad? In-Reply-To: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> References: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > So, have I been bad? So sorry I haven't read _Kushiel's Dart_ yet. From Bato001 at aol.com Mon Feb 28 20:34:43 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:34:43 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) Message-ID: <455C72C1.1CA01F4E.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/2005 11:03:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >>MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >>>> I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone could help >>me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... thank >>you thank you. > >Hi Crystal, > >Past threads-- > >http://dragaera.info/ >Click on mailing lists >Click on the word archive on the Dragaera line. >That will get you to http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1 >Click on email that looks like one you posted. >If it isn't yours, Click on the word <-thread-> to bring up all emails >with same subject line. Click on one from MedCat7.aol.com >Click on <- author -> and you can see every email you wrote. >Then the hard part comes...finding the right one. > >There is also http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/ >But it does not seem to be searching recent postings. > >Or even easier, someone nice like Chris Olson can search his emails >and find the link (or however he found the link). > >Bato001.aol.com wrote Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:43:10 -0500 > >>>My wife saw the stickers and said that I was an idiot and that it made no >>>sense. I told her that you had to be there and that it was an inside joke. >>>She told me that in that case I was a f*&*ing idiot. :) I can't disagree. > >Hi John D. Barbato, O.D., > >Maybe you can read your wife some of Issola: > >Vlad, an Easterner (human), talking to Teldra, an (genetically- >modified human) Issola: > > "'What are young Issola like?' > Teldra flashed me a smile. 'Obsequious to the point of irritating, >or else timid to the point of invisibility. What about young >Easterners?' > 'Brash, cocky, and convinced we can beat anything that walks, flies, >or swims, and that we know all the answers to everything.' > 'Rather like Dzur, then.' > 'I guess. I'm generalizing from one example, here, but everyone >generalized from one example. At least, I do.'" > >Issola, paperback, Chapter 14, page 211. > >Pause and see if you earn "actual chuckle" like Vlad did. > >If not, point out that Vlad, the Easterner (human), is using himself >as the one example. Self deprecating humor, correct? > >Or tell her the bumper sticker is like a computer infinite loop or >a circular argument. > >"Everyone generalizes from one example. At least I do." > >Or maybe you should not say anything about the bumper stickers anymore. >I think you should *not* mention to your wife that you told us >what she said. We do not want another Teckla/Phoenix to happen. > >Bye. > >Linda G. > Ha, ha, ha. We most certainly do not enjoy the same literary tastes, my wife and I. Also, She really doesn't care about me talking about it on the list, even if she did, I am certain that it's not a deal breaker. Any hoo, I *am* an idiot, but not for buying the stickers!!! Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves. I definately am a sci-fi and Fantasy geek, but at least I'm her geek. She was just ribbing me for being a 37 year old, well respected doctor, buying bumperstickers from my *internet cronies*, that only someone who has read a certain book would understand. I see her point, of course, but I really don't care!!! ;) -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Feb 28 20:37:31 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:37:31 -0800 Subject: Have I been bad? In-Reply-To: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> References: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> Message-ID: <1109651851.2399.111.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 20:25, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > So, have I been bad? > Yes. Never, ever do that. At least, not until I come out with another new one. From oliver at astro.ufl.edu Tue Mar 1 03:26:55 2005 From: oliver at astro.ufl.edu (John Oliver) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 06:26:55 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) In-Reply-To: <455C72C1.1CA01F4E.0015B39F@aol.com> References: <455C72C1.1CA01F4E.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: <4224517F.7030005@astro.ufl.edu> Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/28/2005 11:03:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, > FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: > > >>> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>>> I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone >>>>> could help >>> >>> me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... >>> thank you thank you. >> >> Hi Crystal, >> >> Past threads-- >> >> http://dragaera.info/ Click on mailing lists Click on the word >> archive on the Dragaera line. That will get you to >> http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1 Click on email that >> looks like one you posted. If it isn't yours, Click on the word >> <-thread-> to bring up all emails with same subject line. Click on >> one from MedCat7.aol.com Click on <- author -> and you can see >> every email you wrote. Then the hard part comes...finding the right >> one. >> >> There is also http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/ But it does not >> seem to be searching recent postings. >> >> Or even easier, someone nice like Chris Olson can search his emails >> and find the link (or however he found the link). >> >> Bato001.aol.com wrote Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:43:10 -0500 >> >> >>>> My wife saw the stickers and said that I was an idiot and that >>>> it made no sense. I told her that you had to be there and that >>>> it was an inside joke. She told me that in that case I was a >>>> f*&*ing idiot. :) I can't disagree. >> >> Hi John D. Barbato, O.D., >> >> Maybe you can read your wife some of Issola: >> >> Vlad, an Easterner (human), talking to Teldra, an (genetically- >> modified human) Issola: >> >> "'What are young Issola like?' Teldra flashed me a smile. >> 'Obsequious to the point of irritating, or else timid to the point >> of invisibility. What about young Easterners?' 'Brash, cocky, and >> convinced we can beat anything that walks, flies, or swims, and >> that we know all the answers to everything.' 'Rather like Dzur, >> then.' 'I guess. I'm generalizing from one example, here, but >> everyone generalized from one example. At least, I do.'" >> >> Issola, paperback, Chapter 14, page 211. >> >> Pause and see if you earn "actual chuckle" like Vlad did. >> >> If not, point out that Vlad, the Easterner (human), is using >> himself as the one example. Self deprecating humor, correct? >> >> Or tell her the bumper sticker is like a computer infinite loop or >> a circular argument. >> >> "Everyone generalizes from one example. At least I do." >> >> Or maybe you should not say anything about the bumper stickers >> anymore. I think you should *not* mention to your wife that you >> told us what she said. We do not want another Teckla/Phoenix to >> happen. >> >> Bye. >> >> Linda G. >> > > > Ha, ha, ha. We most certainly do not enjoy the same literary tastes, > my wife and I. Also, She really doesn't care about me talking about > it on the list, even if she did, I am certain that it's not a deal > breaker. Any hoo, I *am* an idiot, but not for buying the stickers!!! > Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves. I definately am a sci-fi and > Fantasy geek, but at least I'm her geek. She was just ribbing me for > being a 37 year old, well respected doctor, buying bumperstickers > from my *internet cronies*, that only someone who has read a certain > book would understand. I see her point, of course, but I really don't > care!!! ;) And what does that make me ??? A 65 year old (nearly) retired professor who is preparing to play an Orca in a Heros game based on Dragaera? -- John Oliver Associate Professor Associate Chair Department of Astronomy University of Florida Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 1 04:49:00 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 05:49:00 -0700 Subject: Have I been bad? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c51e5d$0b1eb200$667ba8c0@Dad133> Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> So, have I been bad? > > > So sorry I haven't read _Kushiel's Dart_ yet. LOL! From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 05:08:18 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:08:18 -0500 Subject: Hungarian food (slightly OT) Message-ID: <2852BFFB.16E2A9C9.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/2005 1:34:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff G." writes: > >Food is never off topic, IMHO. Post the recipe. > >Jeff G. > Hungarian Noodles and Cabbage 1 medium head of cabbage, chopped 1 small onion (it didn't specify white or yellow, so I used yellow) 6 slices of baccon (cut up of course) 12oz pkg of egg noodles salt and pepper Cook baccon and onions until the onion is lightly brown. Drain half the "juice." Add cabbage and salt and cook coverd until the cabbage is lightly brown, about 15 mins. In the meantime, boil the noodles. When both are done, mix the noodles in with the cabbage mix. Enjoy! Serves 4 Can be served cold -C From moghan_david at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 05:41:33 2005 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 05:41:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Have I been bad? In-Reply-To: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050301134133.60929.qmail@web41305.mail.yahoo.com> You are asking the wrong question, it not was I bad, but if it felt good? If they are not going to promote Steven's Books, then we have too. FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: Hi, So I am in my local bookstore and see that Sethra Lavode is not in the section where *NEW* paperbacks are. Sethra Lavode is in the Sci Fi/Fantasy *NEW* section only. There are other Sci Fi/Fantasy books in the *NEW* paperback section. There is an empty slot in the *NEW* paperback section. There are plenty of Sethra Lavode books in the Sci Fi/Fantasy *NEW* section. I take two Sethra Lavode paperbacks and put them in the empty slot in the *NEW* paperbacks section near another Sci Fi/Fantasy book. I also take one Sethra Lavode paperback and put it with the other Brust books so that you could see the front (not just the side) cover. Therefore, someone not looking in the *NEW* sections could see it. So, have I been bad? Bye. Linda G. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue Mar 1 07:16:44 2005 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:16:44 -0500 Subject: Have I been bad? In-Reply-To: <1db.36c3f1cf.2f55489e@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20050301101306.00b36a90@camail2.harvard.edu> At 11:25 PM 2/28/2005 -0500, you wrote: >[SNIP] >I also take one Sethra Lavode paperback and put it with the other Brust >books so that you could see the front (not just the side) cover. Therefore, >someone not looking in the *NEW* sections could see it. Yeah, I do that too. If there's room on a shelf, I'll often adjust the books so that my favorites have their front covers showing instead of the spine. I don't feel bad about this though, as the obsessive-compulsive part of me will also help the store's staff by re-arranging books that I notice are out of alphabetical order. Charley Sumner Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it keeps its brain. From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Mar 1 07:41:33 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:41:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Have I been bad? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20050301101306.00b36a90@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050301101306.00b36a90@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Charles Sumner wrote: @> >I also take one Sethra Lavode paperback and put it with the other Brust @> >books so that you could see the front (not just the side) cover. @> >Therefore, someone not looking in the *NEW* sections could see it. @> @> Yeah, I do that too. If there's room on a shelf, I'll often adjust the @> books so that my favorites have their front covers showing instead of the @> spine. I don't feel bad about this though, as the obsessive-compulsive part @> of me will also help the store's staff by re-arranging books that I notice @> are out of alphabetical order. On a couple of occasions I've done things like this. Once, I noticed that Piers Anthony was taking up two and a half shelves, while many other authors (including our Esteemed Mister Brust) were being squeezed unmercifully on the shelves below and immediately to the right (this particular squeezing being accomplished by turning the books sideways and stacking them on top of the visible rows of books, /with the paper side rather than the spine facing the aisle/). This did not take long to rectify, although I suppose some might dispute Man From Mundania's credentials as a romance novel. From Thomarus at carolina.rr.com Tue Mar 1 07:54:42 2005 From: Thomarus at carolina.rr.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:54:42 -0500 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20050301101306.00b36a90@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050301101306.00b36a90@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <42249042.4050004@carolina.rr.com> Please remove me or let me know how to do so please. From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 07:56:35 2005 From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <42249042.4050004@carolina.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050301155636.89073.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Yea, me too. Mike wrote:Please remove me or let me know how to do so please. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From books at bofh.com Tue Mar 1 08:02:03 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:02:03 -0700 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <20050301155636.89073.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <42249042.4050004@carolina.rr.com> <20050301155636.89073.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050301160202.GA14619@bofh.com> On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 07:56:35AM -0800, Oscar Rios wrote: > Yea, me too. > > Mike wrote:Please remove me or let me know how to do so please. Mail to: dragaera-help at dragaera.info ( mailto:dragaera-help at dragaera.info ) will get you information on how to do this. If you send email to dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info ( mailto:dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info ) from the address you are subscribed from, it should unsubscribe you. This information can all be found at: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/dragaera-list/rules.html -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us Bumper Sticker: Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive. From Thomarus at carolina.rr.com Tue Mar 1 08:50:38 2005 From: Thomarus at carolina.rr.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:50:38 -0500 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <20050301160202.GA14619@bofh.com> References: <42249042.4050004@carolina.rr.com> <20050301155636.89073.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <20050301160202.GA14619@bofh.com> Message-ID: <42249D5E.2080004@carolina.rr.com> Thanks much. I'm still a Brust fan but I had 767 emails in my box most of which were from this list. Wish I had that kind of time but I don't. From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 1 08:57:44 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:57:44 -0700 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <42249D5E.2080004@carolina.rr.com> References: <42249042.4050004@carolina.rr.com> <20050301155636.89073.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <20050301160202.GA14619@bofh.com> <42249D5E.2080004@carolina.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:50:38 -0500, Mike wrote: > Thanks much. I'm still a Brust fan but I had 767 emails in my box most > of which were from this list. Wish I had that kind of time but I > don't. It can be helpful to create a filter to move these e-mails to a folder separate from your other e-mail. Opera does this automatically. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 09:05:18 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:05:18 -0500 Subject: Have I been bad? Message-ID: <0FDA7749.3A43C9FF.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/2005 11:25:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >Hi, > >So I am in my local bookstore and see that Sethra Lavode is not in the >section where *NEW* paperbacks are. ?Sethra Lavode is in the Sci Fi/Fantasy >*NEW* section only. ?There are other Sci Fi/Fantasy books in the *NEW* >paperback section. ?There is an empty slot in the *NEW* paperback section. >There are plenty of Sethra Lavode books in the Sci Fi/Fantasy *NEW* section. > >I take two Sethra Lavode paperbacks and put them in the empty slot in the >*NEW* paperbacks section near another Sci Fi/Fantasy book. > >I also take one Sethra Lavode paperback and put it with the other Brust >books so that you could see the front (not just the side) cover. ?Therefore, >someone not looking in the *NEW* sections could see it. > >So, have I been bad? > >Bye. > >Linda G. > That's awesome! I so would have done the same. I need to get to a bookstore anyway. -C From casey at the-bat.net Tue Mar 1 09:09:20 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:09:20 -0500 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <42249D5E.2080004@carolina.rr.com> Message-ID: > Thanks much. I'm still a Brust fan but I had 767 emails in > my box most of which were from this list. Wish I had that > kind of time but I don't. DD-B, Perhaps we should add a warning to the registration process that this is a moderately high volume list? From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 09:09:53 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:09:53 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChXYXM6IFJlOiBzaGFtZSk=?= Message-ID: <4C183AD4.1BD96165.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/2005 11:34:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 at aol.com writes: >Ha, ha, ha. We most certainly do not enjoy the same literary tastes, my wife and I. Also, She really doesn't care about me talking about it on the list, even if she did, I am certain that it's not a deal breaker. Any hoo, I *am* an idiot, but not for buying the stickers!!! Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves. I definately am a sci-fi and Fantasy geek, but at least I'm her geek. She was just ribbing me for being a 37 year old, well respected doctor, buying bumperstickers from my *internet cronies*, that only someone who has read a certain book would understand. I see her point, of course, but I really don't care!!! ?;) >-- >John D. Barbato, O.D. > And rightfully so. Everyone I know respects that I did something like order stickers, but they think i am the biggest dork for doing it for people on the internet and over a books. Not many people I know even read, let alone be passionate about anything! -C > From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 09:30:16 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:30:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Sticker_Link_=EF=BF=BD(Was:_Re:_shame)?= Message-ID: <8231212.1109698216842.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > And rightfully so. Everyone I know respects that I did something like > order stickers, but they think i am the biggest dork for doing it for > people on the internet and over a books. Not many people I know even > read, let alone be passionate about anything! -C Well, reading is for chumps. Who on this list likes books anyway? Jose: ask me about my irony! Low low prices today! -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 09:26:50 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:26:50 -0500 Subject: ss Message-ID: <19A7EE57.649E0EF5.00184D6D@aol.com> Ok, I have not updated my sticker stuff yet, so if you sent me a request for one, and I did not get back to you yet, that is because they have all been reclaimed to my knowledge. I will update my stuff and let everyone know if I have any left. Sorry if I inconvineanced (sp) anyone with this. -C From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 09:26:20 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:26:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: remove request Message-ID: <14978394.1109697981371.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: >On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:50:38 -0500, Mike wrote: > >> Thanks much. I'm still a Brust fan but I had 767 emails in my box most >> of which were from this list. Wish I had that kind of time but I >> don't. > >It can be helpful to create a filter to move these e-mails to a folder >separate from your other e-mail. Opera does this automatically. > Wait, so Opera creates filters without asking you for permission? Seems a bit intrusive... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 15:31:04 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:31:04 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) Message-ID: <22E26CD2.238C6B54.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 6:23:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, John Oliver writes: >Bato001 at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 2/28/2005 11:03:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes: >> >> >>>> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I am not sure if the link would still work, but if someone >>>>>> could help >>>> >>>> me out on this, I have no clue where to look for past threads... >>>> thank you thank you. >>> >>> Hi Crystal, >>> >>> Past threads-- >>> >>> http://dragaera.info/ Click on mailing lists Click on the word >>> archive on the Dragaera line. That will get you to >>> http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1 Click on email that >>> looks like one you posted. If it isn't yours, Click on the word >>> <-thread-> to bring up all emails with same subject line. Click on >>> one from MedCat7.aol.com Click on <- author -> and you can see >>> every email you wrote. Then the hard part comes...finding the right >>> one. >>> >>> There is also http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/ But it does not >>> seem to be searching recent postings. >>> >>> Or even easier, someone nice like Chris Olson can search his emails >>> and find the link (or however he found the link). >>> >>> Bato001.aol.com wrote Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:43:10 -0500 >>> >>> >>>>> My wife saw the stickers and said that I was an idiot and that >>>>> it made no sense. I told her that you had to be there and that >>>>> it was an inside joke. She told me that in that case I was a >>>>> f*&*ing idiot. :) I can't disagree. >>> >>> Hi John D. Barbato, O.D., >>> >>> Maybe you can read your wife some of Issola: >>> >>> Vlad, an Easterner (human), talking to Teldra, an (genetically- >>> modified human) Issola: >>> >>> "'What are young Issola like?' Teldra flashed me a smile. >>> 'Obsequious to the point of irritating, or else timid to the point >>> of invisibility. What about young Easterners?' 'Brash, cocky, and >>> convinced we can beat anything that walks, flies, or swims, and >>> that we know all the answers to everything.' 'Rather like Dzur, >>> then.' 'I guess. I'm generalizing from one example, here, but >>> everyone generalized from one example. At least, I do.'" >>> >>> Issola, paperback, Chapter 14, page 211. >>> >>> Pause and see if you earn "actual chuckle" like Vlad did. >>> >>> If not, point out that Vlad, the Easterner (human), is using >>> himself as the one example. Self deprecating humor, correct? >>> >>> Or tell her the bumper sticker is like a computer infinite loop or >>> a circular argument. >>> >>> "Everyone generalizes from one example. At least I do." >>> >>> Or maybe you should not say anything about the bumper stickers >>> anymore. I think you should *not* mention to your wife that you >>> told us what she said. We do not want another Teckla/Phoenix to >>> happen. >>> >>> Bye. >>> >>> Linda G. >>> >> >> >> Ha, ha, ha. We most certainly do not enjoy the same literary tastes, >> my wife and I. Also, She really doesn't care about me talking about >> it on the list, even if she did, I am certain that it's not a deal >> breaker. Any hoo, I *am* an idiot, but not for buying the stickers!!! >> Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves. I definately am a sci-fi and >> Fantasy geek, but at least I'm her geek. She was just ribbing me for >> being a 37 year old, well respected doctor, buying bumperstickers >> from my *internet cronies*, that only someone who has read a certain >> book would understand. I see her point, of course, but I really don't >> care!!! ;) > >And what does that make me ??? A 65 year old (nearly) retired professor >who is preparing to play an Orca in a Heros game based on Dragaera? >-- >John Oliver >Associate Professor >Associate Chair >Department of Astronomy >University of Florida >Project AST at RHO http://astrho.astro.ufl.edu >see the night sky at http://concam.net/rh/ > One of my crazy internet cronies!!!!!!!!!! -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 10:36:29 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:36:29 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) Message-ID: <2442B102.228306FB.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 12:09:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, MedCat7 at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 2/28/2005 11:34:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 at aol.com writes: > >>Ha, ha, ha. We most certainly do not enjoy the same literary tastes, my wife and I. Also, She really doesn't care about me talking about it on the list, even if she did, I am certain that it's not a deal breaker. Any hoo, I *am* an idiot, but not for buying the stickers!!! Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves. I definately am a sci-fi and Fantasy geek, but at least I'm her geek. She was just ribbing me for being a 37 year old, well respected doctor, buying bumperstickers from my *internet cronies*, that only someone who has read a certain book would understand. I see her point, of course, but I really don't care!!! ;) >>-- >>John D. Barbato, O.D. >> >And rightfully so. Everyone I know respects that I did something like order stickers, but they think i am the biggest dork for doing it for people on the internet and over a books. Not many people I know even read, let alone be passionate about anything! >-C > > > >> > HEAR!! HERE!! Your the best Crystal!!!! At least *someone* gets my sense of humor. And I still love the stickers, even though my wife said she'd kill me if I actually put it on my truck!!!! -- John D. Barbato, O.D., D.O.R.K. ( and happy about it) From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 10:38:20 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:38:20 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link =?ISO-8859-1?B?77+9KFdhczogUmU6IHNoYW1lKQ==?= Message-ID: <789EA5A4.3D5548BE.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 12:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose Marquez writes: >MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > >> And rightfully so. Everyone I know respects that I did something like >> order stickers, but they think i am the biggest dork for doing it for >> people on the internet and over a books. Not many people I know even >> read, let alone be passionate about anything! -C > >Well, reading is for chumps. Who on this list likes books anyway? > >Jose: ask me about my irony! Low low prices today! >-- >Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in >jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand >http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. > >-- >Jose Marquez >jhereg69 at earthlink.net >http://www.hackwater.com > I didn't know I could order that on the internet!! Please send me a link to your order form or let me know how much for 16 ounces. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 10:59:39 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:59:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) Message-ID: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> John D. Barbato wrote: > In a message dated 3/1/2005 12:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose > Marquez writes: > >> MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: >> >>> And rightfully so. Everyone I know respects that I did something >>> like order stickers, but they think i am the biggest dork for >>> doing it for people on the internet and over a books. Not many >>> people I know even read, let alone be passionate about anything! >>> -C >> >> Well, reading is for chumps. Who on this list likes books anyway? >> > I didn't know I could order that on the internet!! Please send me a > link to your order form or let me know how much for 16 ounces. Heh. Today's special is free irony. In fact, you get it even if you don't ask for it. Lucky for us both, you asked for it. Prices occasionally get lower than that, but it's unusual. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Mar 1 11:15:13 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:15:13 -0600 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: (Casey Rousseau's message of "Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:09:20 -0500") References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > >> Thanks much. I'm still a Brust fan but I had 767 emails in >> my box most of which were from this list. Wish I had that >> kind of time but I don't. > Perhaps we should add a warning to the registration process that > this is a moderately high volume list? The only problem I have with that is that nearly all the time it *isn't*. This morning, for example, there were 17 messages here, compared to 50, 100, 200 or so in various other groups I read regularly. It's true that when we spike it gets nasty, but that hasn't happened much lately. I'll look into adding something, I guess. On the other hand, the other thing those people could have been told about was digest mode -- subscribe to the digest list instead of the raw list and get one message a day, until the traffic gets fairly high, and then you get something like one digest per 60 messages (I forget the exact settings). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Mar 1 11:17:14 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:17:14 -0600 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <14978394.1109697981371.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> (Jose Marquez's message of "Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:26:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00)") References: <14978394.1109697981371.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez writes: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >>On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:50:38 -0500, Mike wrote: >> >>> Thanks much. I'm still a Brust fan but I had 767 emails in my box most >>> of which were from this list. Wish I had that kind of time but I >>> don't. >> >>It can be helpful to create a filter to move these e-mails to a folder >>separate from your other e-mail. Opera does this automatically. >> > > Wait, so Opera creates filters without asking you for permission? > Seems a bit intrusive... I went to quite a bit of trouble with maildrop and gnus to get exactly that to happen for me. I see why people might *not* want it, but it's exactly what I want. (Despite being a mostly-opera user for years, I never made much use of that or any other POP client, though.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Mar 1 11:20:37 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:20:37 -0600 Subject: Kill readalong and onlinerpg? Message-ID: Given the usage levels over a long time, I'm seriously considering killing off the readalong and onlinerpg mailing lists. Anybody have anything to say about it first? Readlong, for example, has 22 consecutive months of no traffic except the subscriber list posting. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From marklandin at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 11:24:26 2005 From: marklandin at gmail.com (Mark Landin) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:24:26 -0600 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16ee270e0503011124256ec35f@mail.gmail.com> > > On the other hand, the other thing those people could have been told > about was digest mode -- subscribe to the digest list instead of the > raw list and get one message a day, until the traffic gets fairly > high, and then you get something like one digest per 60 messages (I > forget the exact settings). Or get a Gmail account, which will present all the emails in a threaded presentation. Although this list does sometimes have 50 or 60 posts on a day, they are all usually part of a small number of individual topics, so seeing them threaded makes it much easier to manage them. I have some (45?) invites if anyone is interested. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Mar 1 11:41:03 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:41:03 -0600 Subject: Updated list description Message-ID: I've updated the list description to mention traffic levels, and added information about subscribing to the digest form of the list. All of this down on the dragaera list page, where nobody will ever see it because of the nice table of list information on the general mailing lists page :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Mar 1 11:59:42 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:59:42 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) In-Reply-To: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4224C9AE.6000407@email.ers.usda.gov> Jose Marquez wrote: > >Heh. Today's special is free irony. In fact, you get it even if you don't ask for it. Lucky for us both, you asked for it. Prices occasionally get lower than that, but it's unusual. > >*grin* > > > How much for tire irony, then? Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 1 11:26:41 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:26:41 -0700 Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) In-Reply-To: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:59:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Jose Marquez wrote: > Heh. Today's special is free irony. In fact, you get it even if you > don't ask for it. Lucky for us both, you asked for it. Prices > occasionally get lower than that, but it's unusual. Good, my shirt is wrinkled. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Mar 1 12:05:59 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sticker Link (Was: Re: shame) In-Reply-To: References: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:59:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Jose Marquez > wrote: > > > Heh. Today's special is free irony. In fact, you get it even if you > > don't ask for it. Lucky for us both, you asked for it. Prices > > occasionally get lower than that, but it's unusual. > > Good, my shirt is wrinkled. Irony is rather more indicated for the wrinkles on one's face... From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 14:07:00 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:07:00 -0500 Subject: Sticker Link =?ISO-8859-1?B?oChXYXM6IFJlOiBzaGFtZSk=?= Message-ID: <31914708.79D3D852.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 1:36:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bato001 writes: > >HEAR!! HERE!! Your the best Crystal!!!! At least *someone* gets my sense of humor. And I still love the stickers, even though my wife said she'd kill me if I actually put it on my truck!!!! >-- >John D. Barbato, O.D., D.O.R.K. ( and happy about it) > > **blushing, takes a graceful bow** -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 14:11:22 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:11:22 -0500 Subject: Kill readalong and onlinerpg? Message-ID: <44CB30CF.46F92C0D.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 2:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: >Given the usage levels over a long time, I'm seriously considering >killing off the readalong and onlinerpg mailing lists. ?Anybody have >anything to say about it first? ?Readlong, for example, has 22 >consecutive months of no traffic except the subscriber list posting. >-- Woah, blonde here. What is this? -C > From Bato001 at aol.com Tue Mar 1 15:07:34 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:07:34 -0500 Subject: Kill readalong and onlinerpg? Message-ID: <7100C2AD.377DBB93.0015B39F@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 2:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: >Given the usage levels over a long time, I'm seriously considering >killing off the readalong and onlinerpg mailing lists. Anybody have >anything to say about it first? Readlong, for example, has 22 >consecutive months of no traffic except the subscriber list posting. >-- >David Dyer-Bennet, , >RKBA: >Pics: >Dragaera/Steven Brust: > I wondered why you kept it going this long. No complaints here if you kill it. -- John D. Barbato, O.D. From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 15:12:21 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:12:21 -0600 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <16ee270e0503011124256ec35f@mail.gmail.com> References: <16ee270e0503011124256ec35f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:24:26 -0600, Mark Landin wrote: > Or get a Gmail account, which will present all the emails in a > threaded presentation. Although this list does sometimes have 50 or 60 > posts on a day, they are all usually part of a small number of > individual topics, so seeing them threaded makes it much easier to > manage them. This is exactly what I have done, and Gmail is searchable, to boot! -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | From ike at manor.org Tue Mar 1 16:07:52 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:07:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?THANKS!!!_Re=3A_Sticker_Link_=A0=28Was=3A_Re=3A?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?_shame=29?= In-Reply-To: <4C183AD4.1BD96165.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <4C183AD4.1BD96165.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > And rightfully so. Everyone I know respects that I did something like > order stickers, but they think i am the biggest dork for doing it for > people on the internet and over a books. Not many people I know even > read, let alone be passionate about anything! -C I got them today...thank you for the smile on my face :) --Brother Ike From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 13:24:08 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:24:08 -0700 Subject: Gizoogle (kinda sorta on topic) References: <16342330.1109703584057.JavaMail.root@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I heard about this on the radio the other morning, and decided to check it out. www.gizoogle.com is a google seach that gives a "Snoop Dogg" eubonics slant to it's search results. For lack of anything else, I searched Dragaera. Here is a sample: Dragaera Dragaera cuz its a doggy dog world. Dedicated ta tha Works of Steven K. Zolt?n B-R-to-tha-izzust ridin' in mah double R. Thanks fo` spendin' by dragaera.info. We wizzle ta hizzy kizzy you ... dragaera.info/ - 5k Jeff G I be readin dat Brust fo' shizzle!!! From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 08:02:08 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:02:08 -0700 Subject: remove request References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050301101306.00b36a90@camail2.harvard.edu> <42249042.4050004@carolina.rr.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: remove request > Please remove me or let me know how to do so please. > If we shadows have offended, Think but this, and all is mended, That you have but slumber'd here While these visions did appear. And this weak and idle theme, No more yielding but a dream, Gentles, do not reprehend: if you pardon, we will mend: And, as I am an honest Puck, If we have unearned luck Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue, We will make amends ere long; Else the Puck a liar call; So, good night unto you all. Give me your hands, if we be friends, And Robin shall restore amends. Or, you could simply send an email to this address: dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info Jeff G From s1burns at ucsd.edu Tue Mar 1 21:20:25 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:20:25 -0800 Subject: Weblog Message-ID: <20050302052030.QLOG1282.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@Soltan> >From the Log, updated February 28th: "The book moves. I can see the oncoming train from here." Crap. He DID burn down Valabar's. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Mar 1 21:49:28 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:49:28 -0600 Subject: Kill readalong and onlinerpg? In-Reply-To: <7100C2AD.377DBB93.0015B39F@aol.com> (Bato001@aol.com's message of "Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:07:34 -0500") References: <7100C2AD.377DBB93.0015B39F@aol.com> Message-ID: Bato001 at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 3/1/2005 2:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > >>Given the usage levels over a long time, I'm seriously considering >>killing off the readalong and onlinerpg mailing lists. Anybody have >>anything to say about it first? Readlong, for example, has 22 >>consecutive months of no traffic except the subscriber list posting. > I wondered why you kept it going this long. No complaints here if you kill it. Inertia. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Mar 1 21:51:26 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:51:26 -0600 Subject: Kill readalong and onlinerpg? In-Reply-To: <44CB30CF.46F92C0D.00184D6D@aol.com> (MedCat7@aol.com's message of "Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:11:22 -0500") References: <44CB30CF.46F92C0D.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: MedCat7 at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 3/1/2005 2:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > >>Given the usage levels over a long time, I'm seriously considering >>killing off the readalong and onlinerpg mailing lists. ?Anybody have >>anything to say about it first? ?Readlong, for example, has 22 >>consecutive months of no traffic except the subscriber list posting. > Woah, blonde here. What is this? Two lists, added early on, which haven't ended up being terribly useful. The idea of "readalong" was that people would pick a book, and read it together and discuss it online as it went. For whatever reason it didn't get very popular. And the online RPG group pretty much went away, so far as I can tell. The early archives of those lists, and discussion here shortly before that, would tell you pretty much all that's known about it, if you get *that* interested. (links to the archives are on the mailing-list page of dragaera.info). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 11 16:39:40 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:39:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Matthew Hunter wrote: > I can, however, easily separate out a list of nations that I > would not under any circumstances trust with nuclear weapons. > I can make an even shorter list of nations for which I would put > my life on the line in a military action to prevent their > acquisition of a nuclear weapon, or to destroy such capability > already in existance. While I applaud your willingness to risk death for the good of your country, I doubt we will see any more military actions aimed at states. Pakistan is there - probably NK; Iran (assuming that's on your list) seems likely to develop nukes whatever we do. I'm much more concerned about non-state actors - the flourishing and metastasizing al Qaeda, or Hamas, or some unknown group biding its time. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 11 18:15:01 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:15:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Politics? In-Reply-To: <1108156184.2781.50.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> References: <1108156184.2781.50.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Steve Brust wrote: > Yes,sir. Shutting it down, sir. > > I should really write a long diatribe in one of the books about capital > punishment, so we can argue it here. Alas, it wouldn't fit in. I think the ending of _TPG_ makes a clear statement on capital punishment under imperfect government. > Hmmm...maybe.... > > :gets back to work: Well, that _is_ more important. From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Mar 2 04:36:48 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:36:48 -0700 Subject: remove request Message-ID: And if anyone wants one, I think I have about 2 billion Gmail invites left... Ok... Perhaps 50... :) Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Johne Cook [mailto:johne.cook at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 6:12 PM Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: remove request On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:24:26 -0600, Mark Landin wrote: > Or get a Gmail account, which will present all the emails in a > threaded presentation. Although this list does sometimes have 50 or 60 > posts on a day, they are all usually part of a small number of > individual topics, so seeing them threaded makes it much easier to > manage them. This is exactly what I have done, and Gmail is searchable, to boot! -- johne cook | johne.cook at gmail.com | http://www.phywriter.com | ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Mar 2 05:01:42 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:01:42 -0500 Subject: remove request Message-ID: <65FCE16D.63775353.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 3/1/2005 11:02:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Jeff G." writes: >If we shadows have offended, >Think but this, and all is mended, >That you have but slumber'd here >While these visions did appear. >And this weak and idle theme, >No more yielding but a dream, >Gentles, do not reprehend: >if you pardon, we will mend: >And, as I am an honest Puck, >If we have unearned luck >Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue, >We will make amends ere long; >Else the Puck a liar call; >So, good night unto you all. >Give me your hands, if we be friends, >And Robin shall restore amends. > Ah, one of my favorite Shakespere plays... A Midsummer's Night Dream. Puck to the audience. Last lines of the play. -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Mar 2 05:03:52 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:03:52 -0500 Subject: Kill readalong and onlinerpg? Message-ID: <0023631A.2FD9F7FC.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/2005 12:51:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > >Two lists, added early on, which haven't ended up being terribly >useful. ?The idea of "readalong" was that people would pick a book, >and read it together and discuss it online as it went. ?For whatever >reason it didn't get very popular. ?And the online RPG group pretty >much went away, so far as I can tell. ?The early archives of those >lists, and discussion here shortly before that, would tell you pretty >much all that's known about it, if you get *that* interested. ?(links >to the archives are on the mailing-list page of dragaera.info). Ah ha. Big help. Well then, i don't care if you get rid of them :o) -C From MedCat7 at aol.com Wed Mar 2 05:07:12 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:07:12 -0500 Subject: memory is like a whatchacallit Message-ID: <14AD65AE.255E0900.00184D6D@aol.com> carla.hunt.b at jfhfsglfkj Damnit I can't remember the rest and I forgot my damn papers on the table. Carla, forgive me and get back to me plesae. Sorry eveyone else. -C From GibelMaria at aol.com Wed Mar 2 05:34:10 2005 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:34:10 EST Subject: remove request Message-ID: <156.4be69830.2f571ad2@aol.com> Same here... I've been going throgh the website and it hasnt wrked.. been trying for a year now to be removed. In a message dated 3/1/2005 10:57:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com writes: Yea, me too. Mike wrote:Please remove me or let me know how to do so please. From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 2 05:43:26 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:43:26 -0700 Subject: Weblog In-Reply-To: <20050302052030.QLOG1282.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@Soltan> Message-ID: <000501c51f2d$d03ec090$667ba8c0@Dad133> Shawn Burns wrote: >> From the Log, updated February 28th: > > "The book moves. I can see the oncoming train from here." But we now have the name of one of the people who has moved the book. From blackbird0 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 06:25:37 2005 From: blackbird0 at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Kiok) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:25:37 -0800 Subject: remove request In-Reply-To: <156.4be69830.2f571ad2@aol.com> References: <156.4be69830.2f571ad2@aol.com> Message-ID: <553e80e29c534ba9c138c6bfc59390c2@yahoo.com> Remove me too please. On Mar 2, 2005, at 5:34 AM, GibelMaria at aol.com wrote: > Same here... I've been going throgh the website and it hasnt wrked.. > been > trying for a year now to be removed. > > In a message dated 3/1/2005 10:57:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com writes: > Yea, me too. > > Mike wrote:Please remove me or let me know > how to > do so please. From books at bofh.com Wed Mar 2 06:36:01 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:36:01 -0700 Subject: remove request - A HOWTO! In-Reply-To: <553e80e29c534ba9c138c6bfc59390c2@yahoo.com> References: <156.4be69830.2f571ad2@aol.com> <553e80e29c534ba9c138c6bfc59390c2@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050302143601.GA29344@bofh.com> On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 06:25:37AM -0800, Jeffrey Kiok wrote: > Remove me too please. Perhaps I was too loquacious in my reply to this originally. Send a message to dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info from the address you are subscribed from. Failing that, I suspect if you send email to dd-b at dd-b.net (and NOT the whole list) and he'll take care of you. That's how I do it on my lists. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "No one ever went broke overestimating the stupidity of the American public" (with apologies to Henry Louis Mencken) From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Mar 2 07:53:47 2005 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:53:47 -0600 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20050302155347.GG29283@infodancer.org> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 04:39:40PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > I can, however, easily separate out a list of nations that I > > would not under any circumstances trust with nuclear weapons. > > I can make an even shorter list of nations for which I would put > > my life on the line in a military action to prevent their > > acquisition of a nuclear weapon, or to destroy such capability > > already in existance. > While I applaud your willingness to risk death for the good of your > country, I doubt we will see any more military actions aimed at > states. Pakistan is there - probably NK; Iran (assuming that's on > your list) seems likely to develop nukes whatever we do. > I'm much more concerned about non-state actors - the flourishing > and metastasizing al Qaeda, or Hamas, or some unknown group biding its > time. Actually, I'm primarily worried about certain nation-states getting nukes due to the risk that they would then deliver one or more nukes to terrorists. Nation-states have generally demonstrated a knowledge of consequences that allows them to be intimidated. Not necessarily a well-developed one, but enough to understand the fundamental nuclear deterrance equation: "If you use a nuclear weapon upon us, you might get one or two cities, but in return your entire nation will become a smoking pile of radioactive glass." Non-state actors aren't vulnerable to that kind of retaliation, but they have a much harder time putting together the resources to construct a weapon. The nightmare scenario is a nation-state with the capacity to build nuclear weapons and the willingness to sell or give them to terrorists. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Mar 2 08:33:20 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:33:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: my last(?) two emails In-Reply-To: References: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> <20050212002845.GC20136@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Sorry, those apparently got lost in the ether and just now found their way to the list. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Mar 2 10:12:01 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:12:01 -0600 Subject: remove request - A HOWTO! In-Reply-To: <20050302143601.GA29344@bofh.com> (Jot Powers's message of "Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:36:01 -0700") References: <156.4be69830.2f571ad2@aol.com> <553e80e29c534ba9c138c6bfc59390c2@yahoo.com> <20050302143601.GA29344@bofh.com> Message-ID: Jot Powers writes: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 06:25:37AM -0800, Jeffrey Kiok wrote: >> Remove me too please. > > Perhaps I was too loquacious in my reply to this originally. > > Send a message to dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info from the > address you are subscribed from. > > Failing that, I suspect if you send email to dd-b at dd-b.net > (and NOT the whole list) and he'll take care of you. That's > how I do it on my lists. If the normal address doesn't work, it most likely means that the exact form of your email address as given in the "envelope sender" has changed behind your back (ISPs do this sometimes) since you subscribed. In that case, if you have a mailer that supports the right standards, the "unsubscribe" button in your mailer will work (because the exact unsubscribe address is encoded in a header in each message from the list to you). If you don't have such a button, then use the "view full headers" option in your mailer, and find the "List-Unsubscribe:" header, and take the address out of the HTML mailto given on that line, and send email to it. Also, remember that you have to get the confirmation message back, and you have to reply to that confirmation message, for the unsubscribe to take effect. If you can't receive email at the address, you can't unsubscribe it (but on the other hand, you aren't being bothered by copies of list email to that address either, so you probably don't care; if it's bouncing it'll be dropped automatically). I can, if necessary, unsubscribe people by brute force from here, but I try to avoid doing so except as a last resort. Apart from workload issues (and there aren't actually enough people needing unsubscribe help to make that a *big* issue), it's also more error-prone, and I'd hate to muck up anybody else while unsubscribing someone. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From sethra500 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 14:07:29 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Crystal Fradette) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:07:29 -0500 Subject: bwa ha ha ha Message-ID: <30991dd10503021407471b582a@mail.gmail.com> Hi Everyone! It's me, Dorkie Crystal. I love the name Sethra so much that I am dorkie enought to use it as my new gmail account name **blonde giggle** Thank you Louis! -C From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 2 18:37:59 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:37:59 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050302155347.GG29283@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000601c51f9a$041e0cb0$667ba8c0@Dad133> It seems to me that there might be a MAD strategy in Dragaera. There are powers that most Dragaerans fear to touch - and some of the people we have met could qualify as "mad scientists" by our standards. But we've seen indications that MAD might not be enough to keep these powers >from being used. From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 05:41:47 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:41:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family -- spoiler In-Reply-To: <000601c51f9a$041e0cb0$667ba8c0@Dad133> Message-ID: <20050303134147.47449.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> Possible spoiler (from Jhereg so probably not tho): S P O I L E R MAD assumes two things that I don't believe exist in the case of Drageara. For MAD to work, there has to be a secured second strike capability. The most unstable situation with any WMD is not 1.) when 1 power has it or 2.) when 2 or more powers possess the weapons and have a secured second strike capability. The most insecure situation is when one or both powers in a conflict have WMD but their ability to retaliate is in doubt. It encourages a use it or lose it mentality -- for example, if Iran ever develops nukes, I'm sure the Israeli government will debate long and hard about hitting Iran with a devastating nuclear strike before it can hit them. The period between when Iran develops its first weapon and when it develops a secured second strike capability could be the most unstable the region has ever seen. I haven't seen any evidense that even a great wizard could rig a "doomsday" spell to go off if he or she was ever killed by a forbidden or pre-empire spell. In other words, if you're using pre-empire sorcery or amorphia in a battle, make sure that you kill the other guy first and you should be fine (assuming you can control the amorphia after using it). Second, MAD assumes that there is no defense against the weapons, and if you can defend against the WMD (aka amorphia), then you are much more difficult to deter. Aliera, for example, has the power to control and harness amorphia. I think she says that the power to create amorphia can't be learned and comes from a specific blood line, so I don't know if Morrolan / Sethra / the Necromancer / the emporer(ess) could create it (and the question arises that if they cannot create it, can they cause it to disappear). In other words, I think most dragaerans cannot hope to touch these skills (creating amorphia and pre-empire sorcery), and so naturally they fear those individuals who have the ability to use these skills. Any deterrence would seem to be more along the lines of the tacit deterrence against biological weapons during WWII. There were no official agreements to not use mustard gas made before or during WWII. However, all the great powers remembered how bad mustard gas was during WWI, and so they were content to forego the weapon as long as everyone else did the same. If one country had started using mustard gas, ALL the other countries would have begun to do so soon thereafter. Along the same lines, if one wizard started using pre-empire sorcery in battle, odds are good that every other wizard capable of doing so (probably a very short list) would soon be using pre-empire sorcery too. Individuals such as Aliera would probably still make it out of the battles alive, but the effects on the normal troops and on the landscape would be devastating. Howard Brazee wrote: It seems to me that there might be a MAD strategy in Dragaera. There are powers that most Dragaerans fear to touch - and some of the people we have met could qualify as "mad scientists" by our standards. But we've seen indications that MAD might not be enough to keep these powers >from being used. From sethra500 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 09:15:53 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Crystal Fradette) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:15:53 -0500 Subject: bwa ha ha ha In-Reply-To: <42263AA8.8040909@ebay.sun.com> References: <30991dd10503021407471b582a@mail.gmail.com> <42263AA8.8040909@ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <30991dd10503030915cfc230@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:14:00 -0800, Chris Olson wrote: > Crystal Fradette wrote: > > Hi Everyone! It's me, Dorkie Crystal. I love the name Sethra so much > > that I am dorkie enought to use it as my new gmail account name > > **blonde giggle** Thank you Louis! > > -C > > So, would this make you Sethra the Younger Younger? > > :) > Chris > Something like that ;o) -C > -- > "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you > in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > From MedCat7 at aol.com Thu Mar 3 09:45:00 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:45:00 -0500 Subject: sniff sniff Message-ID: <01C72FE4.02CDA5FE.00184D6D@aol.com> Just as a heads up, I am takeing this name off the mailing list after I am done with the stickers. Sethra500 at gmail.com will be my new account. Same dork, different name :o) -C From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 10:11:33 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:11:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family -- spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050303181133.63969.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> >> Any deterrence would seem to be more along the lines of the tacit >> deterrence against biological weapons during WWII. There were no >> official agreements to not use mustard gas made before or during WWII. >> However, all the great powers remembered how bad mustard gas >> was during WWI, and so they were content to forego the weapon as long as >> everyone else did the same. If one country had started using >> mustard gas, ALL the other countries would have begun to do so soon >> thereafter. Along the same lines, if one wizard started using pre- >> empire sorcery in battle, odds are good that every other wizard capable >> of doing so (probably a very short list) would soon be using >> pre-empire sorcery too. Individuals such as Aliera would probably still >> make it out of the battles alive, but the effects on the >> normal troops and on the landscape would be devastating. >Except that Hitler couldn't hole up in a bunker and threaten the world >with mustard gas if they didn't stop their attack. There are Dragaerans >who could make threats when cornered which could destroy the empire if >implemented. In my (admittedly limited) recollection, most dragaerans with that much power are posturing for status within the empire, not seeking to undermine or destroy it. Sethra the younger might disagree with the emporesses stance on invading the east, but SY would never destroy the orb over that disagreement (just try to change who becomes empress). When talking about tacit deterrence, I was thinking more along the lines of battles ala _Dragon_. But I am still having trouble seeing how your thoughts on the use of taboo/too dangerous magic relates to mutual assured destruction or deterrence. Your examples are akin to Russia using nukes to put down Chechen terrorists. No sane leader would ever do so because he'd be nuking his own territory (or what they claim to be their territory) and making it unlivable. I guess you just have to hope that no insane person gets nukes / a great weapon. I wonder what the great weapons would do if given the choice between destroying their world (and thus themselves) or turning against their owner. From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 3 10:46:12 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:46:12 -0700 Subject: The Nuclear family -- spoiler In-Reply-To: <20050303181133.63969.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050303181133.63969.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:11:33 -0800 (PST), S SHafer wrote: > But I am still having trouble seeing how your thoughts on the use of > taboo/too dangerous magic relates to mutual assured destruction or > deterrence. Your examples are akin to Russia using nukes to put down > Chechen terrorists. No sane leader would ever do so because he'd > be nuking his own territory (or what they claim to be their territory) > and making it unlivable. I guess you just have to hope that no > insane person gets nukes / a great weapon. We've seen one character unwittingly calling amphoria he could not control. We've seen another character who didn't appear to be interested in anything except his own magical experiments - certainly not about his serfs. We've seen characters who don't have the same standards about people who created a whole river of amphoria for their own inscrutable ends. Off the main stage, we've seen a character willing to kill our favorite goddess. We've seen the cause of the interregnum. We've seen characters experiment in proscribed elder sorcery. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 11:17:52 2005 From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family -- spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050303191752.68576.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> Howard Brazee wrote: >We've seen one character unwittingly calling amphoria he could not >control. We've seen another character who didn't appear to be interested >in anything except his own magical experiments - certainly not about his >serfs. But none of those characters are MAD applicable. Accidents aren't deterrable, and being a bad supervisor surely doesn't make one an insane murderer. >We've seen characters who don't have the same standards about >people who created a whole river of amphoria for their own inscrutable >ends. Weren't the jenoine the creators of the river of amorphia you're talking about (and so in a whole different catagory? they aren't deterrable. Sethra has to either keep them out of Dragaera or kill them). >Off the main stage, we've seen a character willing to kill our favorite goddess. Because she was holding his family down. Also he didn't use Dragaeran magic but received help from a friend. >We've seen the cause of the interregnum. He wasn't trying to destroy the orb but take it for himself. He wanted to overthrow the decadent pheonix, and he also was unable to see all the consequences of his actions. I doubt he would have acted had he known the consequences (in MAD and deterrence, both parties clearly know the consequences) >We've seen characters experiment in proscribed elder sorcery. Yes, but not to overthrow or threaten the empire. Also, I doubt the empress would care that certain individuals possess those skills and use them when necessary (aka visiting Jenoine). The empire just doesn't want the books of pre-empire sorcery to be widely available and experimented with. It's one thing for Morrolan, a known supporter of the empress, to experiment; it's another altogether for a Teckla in Kelly's band to have access to that type of sorcery. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Mar 3 11:42:53 2005 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:42:53 EST Subject: bwa ha ha ha Message-ID: <15a.4ba1760a.2f58c2bd@aol.com> In a message dated 03/03/2005 12:17:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sethra500 at gmail.com writes: > So, would this make you Sethra the Younger Younger? > > :) > Chris > Something like that ;o) -C > -- > "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you > in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > Nice.I like to see that I'm not the only dork on the net. (A hahahahaha!!!) John D. Barbato, OD From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 12:26:10 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:26:10 -0500 Subject: bwa ha ha ha In-Reply-To: <15a.4ba1760a.2f58c2bd@aol.com> References: <15a.4ba1760a.2f58c2bd@aol.com> Message-ID: I have 49 invites left to gmail (one went to Crystal), and I'd like to share them with anyone who'd like them. I'm sure the other gmail users could invite you guys too. From sethra500 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 09:46:10 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Crystal Fradette) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:46:10 -0500 Subject: nothing Message-ID: <30991dd10503040946514e7d27@mail.gmail.com> Wow, I opened my mail and nothing was there! I look foward to seeing what silly things people have to say. It helps my lunch break go by better and it's nice to ignore work for that long hour before the end of the day. I am going to make a little trivia game thingy for fun. No cheating by using that book search. This is from memory only! Ok, here goes: Which book is this from (this is not a quote from a book)? A wall that's not a wall, but a door and Spellbreaker reveals that it is indeed a door. And when the illusion fades later, the wall is no longer there and there are large chairs and all sorts of normal weapons on one of many shelves. Vlad also decides to sit on the floor rather than the oversized chair. I know it's rough, but I think someone can guess. I'll come up with better ones for the future. Oh yeah, if you answer is in detail (I recomend posting it to the list), put that it's a spoiler incase we have new readers (ie: I have not read the Viscount series yet)! Enjoy guessing! -C From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Mar 4 09:59:18 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:59:18 -0800 Subject: nothing In-Reply-To: <30991dd10503040946514e7d27@mail.gmail.com> References: <30991dd10503040946514e7d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4228A1F6.4010103@Sun.COM> Crystal Fradette wrote: > I am going to make a little trivia game thingy for fun. No cheating by > using that book search. This is from memory only! Ok, here goes: Uh oh. Crystal's bored again. Everyone, quick--hide! > Which book is this from (this is not a quote from a book)? > A wall that's not a wall, but a door and Spellbreaker reveals that it > is indeed a door. And when the illusion fades later, the wall is no > longer there and there are large chairs and all sorts of normal > weapons on one of many shelves. Vlad also decides to sit on the floor > rather than the oversized chair. That'd be _Issola_, likely my favorite Vlad novel for the delightful conversations with Lady Teldra. (Though _Dragon_ is pretty close, especially with the "catnip" bit.:) > Oh yeah, if you answer is in detail (I recomend posting it to the > list), put that it's a spoiler incase we have new readers (ie: I have > not read the Viscount series yet)! No detail, as I don't wish to spoil anything. :) Chris From s1burns at ucsd.edu Fri Mar 4 10:02:53 2005 From: s1burns at ucsd.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:02:53 -0800 Subject: nothing *SPOILER* In-Reply-To: <30991dd10503040946514e7d27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050304180258.EJRU4787.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@Soltan> > -----Original Message----- > From: Crystal Fradette [mailto:sethra500 at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:46 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: nothing > > Wow, I opened my mail and nothing was there! I look foward to > seeing what silly things people have to say. It helps my > lunch break go by better and it's nice to ignore work for > that long hour before the end of the day. > > I am going to make a little trivia game thingy for fun. No > cheating by using that book search. This is from memory only! > Ok, here goes: > > Which book is this from (this is not a quote from a book)? > A wall that's not a wall, but a door and Spellbreaker reveals > that it is indeed a door. And when the illusion fades later, > the wall is no longer there and there are large chairs and > all sorts of normal weapons on one of many shelves. Vlad also > decides to sit on the floor rather than the oversized chair. > > I know it's rough, but I think someone can guess. I'll come > up with better ones for the future. > > Oh yeah, if you answer is in detail (I recomend posting it to > the list), put that it's a spoiler incase we have new readers > (ie: I have not read the Viscount series yet)! > > Enjoy guessing! > -C > This is from ISSOLA. When Vlad and Teldra are left in the *one* room of the Jenoine, they go looking for secret doors and find one leading outside (although *secret* is probably inappropriate and it's more likely the room with the door exists in a slightly translated 4th spacial dimension from the room Vlad and Teldra initially enter). Another spacial translation when Aliera and Morrolan return to "rescue" Vlad and Teldra results in Vlad being able to see the shelves lined with racks of weapons (which later leads the group to conclude that the Jenoine are attempting to take over the Empire using armed locals in addition to their own Orb). Teldra, Aliera, and Morrolan are not able to translate without the help of Spellbreaker, so someone (Morrolan?) tries to see using Vlad's eyes, *breaking* the illusion or translating him in the 4th spacial dimension. Aliera is then able to access Morrolan's vision of the room and likewise shift. A final shift like this reveals Jenoine, two seated, two standing, and the group gets into a fight that also involves calling on Verra to help (for which she chastises the group for possibly being traitors since the plane she is now on leaves her vulnerable to being killed by the Jenoine). I too look forward to seeing what silly things people have to say, and you've all helped turn me into an e-mail junky. Thanks. Shawn From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Mar 4 10:38:35 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:38:35 -0800 Subject: The Viscount of Adrilankha Vol 3 ***Spoilers*** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c520e9$5fa2c9e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ contained within. If you're on digest you may want to hit the page down button a couple of times. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I finished _Sethra Lavode_ last night. I wasn't "wowed" by it but I guess it brought things to a conclusion. It wasn't as satisfying as I would have hoped. Maybe if I go back to _Paths of the Dead_ and read the whole story >from beginning to end things will seem more interesting. The biggest problem with the story of the _Viscount of Adrilankha_ is that it can't seem to decide if it's really a story about Piro or a story about Khaavren. Piro is ostensibly the subject of the tale but he's pretty much just a plot device who gets pushed around from here to there in order to show Khaavren's conflicted side. _Sethra Lavode_ is a bit like watching _Attack of the Clones_. That is, if you cut out nearly all of the scenes with Annakin in them and make the film an adventure story starring Obi-Wan then you just about have the makings of a good movie. _Sethra Lavode_ could lose most of the scenes of Piro and his band without losing much of the story at all. I would have liked more "screen time" for Tazendra and Aerich. Tazendra is MIA most of the novel and sort of gets her revenge using sorcery. Yet, as a Dzurlord it would have been more satisfying for me to see her go down swinging. I guess the problem here is that Illista is a minor "straw man" character at best and I just didn't hate or despise her enough to care much about the way she died. Aerich, I don't understand at all. He knows that he's walking into a trap, apparently plans accordingly, and then when he finally arrives his plan seems to be "stand around hoping for the best until I'm killed". Even the Deus Ex Machina of having Piro's band arrive through a contrived set of circumstances isn't enough to actually help him do anything effective. Perhaps it's all simply supposed to be about that one break in Aerich's cool when he cries "Tazendra!". Even then, there's so little character development that anybody who, for some reason, had not read the previous two novels would not give it any particular significance. It seems that Aerich's only purpose in the story is to die so that Khaavren and Piro can be reunited. "I have no more objections to make. My conscience is dead." On a more minor note, I'm a bit surprised that Grita fell prey to the old stereotype of "Teckla are insignificant. I have more important things to do than kill something that's beneath my notice." She had tangled with Khaavren and his friends more than once. She ought to have known better and killed Mica as soon as he showed up. I hate to give a negative review. I certainly never felt like "this is bunk, why I am reading it" or anything. It just wasn't what I'd come to expect >from the greater Dragaeran cycle. The entire _Viscount_ story felt more like a recounting of an RPG session with some history thrown up around it as a backdrop than like the sort of novel we got in _The Phoenix Guards_ and _Five Hundred Years After_. Part of the problem is that Paarfi is telling the story. His viewpoint as a historian is too remote from the events he's describing to be exciting. More than once I found myself wishing that I was getting a first-hand account of the story instead of Paarfi's account. It says something that the one of the most interesting passages was the "preface" which not only gave us some insight into Paarfi's character (and thus some questions about the trustworthiness of his reporting) but which also raised the somewhat interesting question of "How many times can you meet someone for the first time?" Overall, I'd have to give it two stars out of four. For me personally, I would rather have had the story of the Interregnum from the point of view of someone personally involved (Sethra, maybe) with Khaavren and friends acting off-stage rather than have Paarfi's verbose narration of events. Paarfi works great when he's reporting on personal relations and interactions. When he's taking a larger view of great events, he's a lot less interesting, IMO. From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 11:54:37 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Alma Gaiz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:54:37 -0500 Subject: 17 Message-ID: Recently I took a standardized testing in my school and the test booklet I received was number 17. I wondered if anyone else has had a likewise experience with the mystical number those crazy elves are obsessed with. From MedCat7 at aol.com Fri Mar 4 12:52:15 2005 From: MedCat7 at aol.com (MedCat7 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:52:15 -0500 Subject: 17 Message-ID: <660DDA77.5B1ECBCC.00184D6D@aol.com> In a message dated 3/4/2005 2:54:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Alma Gaiz writes: >Recently I took a standardized testing in my school and the test >booklet I received was number 17. I wondered if anyone else has had a >likewise experience with the mystical number those crazy elves are >obsessed with. > My little (ok, not so little) brother turned 17 on the day that exists every 4 years. :o) -C From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Mar 4 12:59:27 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:59:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: 17 In-Reply-To: <660DDA77.5B1ECBCC.00184D6D@aol.com> References: <660DDA77.5B1ECBCC.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 MedCat7 at aol.com wrote: > My little (ok, not so little) brother turned 17 on the day that exists every 4 years. :o) > -C If he's had 17 birthdays, does that makes him 68 years old? From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Mar 4 13:08:33 2005 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:08:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: 17 In-Reply-To: References: <660DDA77.5B1ECBCC.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Philip Hart wrote: @> > My little (ok, not so little) brother turned 17 on the day that @> > exists every 4 years. :o) @> @> If he's had 17 birthdays, does that makes him 68 years old? It's 2005, so I'd guess he'd have to be at least 69 at this point. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 4 13:51:34 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:51:34 -0000 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <1108147140.2781.28.camel@ip68-104-104-172.lv.lv.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050304215124.OMRN1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: 11 February 2005 18:39 > To: Howard Brazee > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: The Nuclear family > > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 11:46, Howard Brazee wrote: > > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of > the wealth concentrated in the hands of very few, which few > exercise more and more direct political power in defense of > that wealth (usually under the cover some sort of religious > doctrine combined with blatant militarism). > > There are others, of course. But I think most people would > agree that a nation that displays those characteristics ought > not to trusted with weapons of terror. > Given point 3. should the U.S. be trusted with Nukes? Mark From sethra500 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 13:57:16 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Crystal Fradette) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:57:16 -0500 Subject: 17 In-Reply-To: References: <660DDA77.5B1ECBCC.00184D6D@aol.com> Message-ID: <30991dd1050304135772f84274@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:08:33 -0500 (EST), John Klein wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > > @> > My little (ok, not so little) brother turned 17 on the day that > @> > exists every 4 years. :o) > @> > @> If he's had 17 birthdays, does that makes him 68 years old? > > It's 2005, so I'd guess he'd have to be at least 69 at this point. > I'm sorry, I should have been a little more clear! He'd really only be 4. I meant that he turned 17 the year that day doesn't exist. Sorry for the confusion! -C From gomi at speakeasy.net Fri Mar 4 13:59:05 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:59:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050304215124.OMRN1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> References: <20050304215124.OMRN1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Mark Tiller wrote: > > 3. Backward nations usually have an enormous percentage of > > the wealth concentrated in the hands of very few, which few > > exercise more and more direct political power in defense of > > that wealth (usually under the cover some sort of religious > > doctrine combined with blatant militarism). > > There are others, of course. But I think most people would > > agree that a nation that displays those characteristics ought > > not to trusted with weapons of terror. > Given point 3. should the U.S. be trusted with Nukes? > > Mark *collapses laughing* Well played, sir. And I thought I made a particular study out of portraying impenetrable obtuseness. I consider myself schooled. pe From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Mar 4 14:29:21 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:29:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <20050304215124.OMRN1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> References: <20050304215124.OMRN1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Mark Tiller wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > > > 3. Backward nations [etc] > > > > Given point 3. should the U.S. be trusted with Nukes? > > Mark You'll want to adjust your irony detector - all the points were intended to advocate for that position... From gomi at speakeasy.net Fri Mar 4 14:35:34 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:35:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: References: <20050304215124.OMRN1187.aamta01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > You'll want to adjust your irony detector - all the points were intended > to advocate for that position... My goodness. Is there a chance he was actually serious? pe From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 4 14:52:37 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:52:37 -0000 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050304225220.XNNG5678.aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] > Sent: 04 March 2005 22:36 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: The Nuclear family > > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Philip Hart wrote: > > > You'll want to adjust your irony detector - all the points were > > intended to advocate for that position... > > My goodness. Is there a chance he was actually serious? > > pe > Only slightly erious....but that's because Nukes aren't really a laughing matter. The problem with political jokes? They get re-elected. I could start a rant about Aamerican politics here, but it's not the right forum. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Mar 4 15:01:02 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:01:02 -0800 Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c5210e$09d4b1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Philip Hart wrote: >> You'll want to adjust your irony detector - all the points were intended >> to advocate for that position... >My goodness. Is there a chance he was actually serious? You mean Steve in his original post about "traits of a backward nation"? A little tongue-in-cheek, maybe, but given what I know of his political leanings I'd asume he's serious. It wasn't Steve's post that surprised me, it was the number of respondents who appeared to completely miss the implication and instead used it to try and prove their own ideas about what other countries ought to be considered "backward". /shrug I know a number of people that would agree with him. You're surely not going to start ridiculing anyone because their viewpoints don't coincide with yours? Probably best to let this this thread die a second death. (It must not have had it's spine severed the first time.) From gomi at speakeasy.net Fri Mar 4 15:08:24 2005 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Nuclear family In-Reply-To: <000501c5210e$09d4b1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <000501c5210e$09d4b1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > You mean Steve in his original post about "traits of a backward nation"? A > little tongue-in-cheek, maybe, but given what I know of his political > leanings I'd asume he's serious. It wasn't Steve's post that surprised me, > it was the number of respondents who appeared to completely miss the > implication and instead used it to try and prove their own ideas about what > other countries ought to be considered "backward". No, not in the least. I was just kind of floored that Steve's utterly unsubtle point had apparently genuinely escaped anyone. > /shrug I know a number of people that would agree with him. You're surely > not going to start ridiculing anyone because their viewpoints don't coincide > with yours? All the time. But not here. pe From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 18:43:41 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:43:41 +0100 Subject: 17 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Alma Gaiz >Recently I took a standardized testing in my school and the test >booklet I received was number 17. I wondered if anyone else has had a >likewise experience with the mystical number those crazy elves are >obsessed with. Well, 17 actually has some sort of mystical *something* in Swedish. A common swear is "seventeen, also!" or "by seventeen old men!" But then Swedish swears/oaths are rather special; most peoples swear by saying something sexual; we almost exclusively swear by the devil/hell/satan. /Mrtn _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 03:41:21 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:41:21 +0000 Subject: 17 Message-ID: I read this thread and then went to empty my junk mail folder, which coincidentally had 17 messages in it... But does it matter that 2 of them weren't junk? Jon From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Mar 5 15:16:49 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:16:49 -0600 Subject: 17 In-Reply-To: (J. C.'s message of "Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:41:21 +0000") References: Message-ID: "J C" writes: > I read this thread and then went to empty my junk mail folder, which > coincidentally had 17 messages in it... > > But does it matter that 2 of them weren't junk? I relatively often notice the Dragaera folder having 17 messages in it. I always read it immediately when that happens. So far, I haven't found them more interesting than the messages I find at other counts, though. Oh well. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Mar 6 02:16:19 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 05:16:19 EST Subject: Your county's libraries and Steven Brust's books Message-ID: <1c0.2405d4b7.2f5c3273@aol.com> Krac D'Chevaliers wrote on Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:41 pm on the **Thieves's World Yahoo group** >**I'd also recommend we all