Scott Schultz wrote: >Thanks for the refresher on the names. I was working with the only one that >came from memory, with a certainty that I'd get it wrong. ;-) > > > >>The deal between Vlad and Timmer was not so much "you get me the deed to >>the land I'm interested in and I'll kill Domm" so much as "we both want >>justice for what Domm did to Loftis, so arrange for Domm to be here at a >>certain time, and I'll take care of it; better that I get my hands >>dirty, as I'm already scum, than you bring down the Empire on you for >>Doing the Right Thing (eliminating Domm, I argue, and Vlad agrees, is >>the right thing to do). Although they "spoke Jhereg" at the meeting to >>get their meaning across, I would argue that the motivations and lack of >>payment differentiate this from actual "work." >> >> > >I find this attitude rather interesting, moreso because it's being evinced >by multiple list readers. > >The way I see it, Vlad and Timmer/whoever came to an "understanding". That >"understanding" was reached based upon a trading of favors. Vlad had no >incentive to stick his neck out any further than he already had unless >Timmer/whoever gave him what he wanted. At point, he owed that person a >debt. The incentive then was the discharging of the debt, which >Timmer/whoever then made possible. The definition of "work", to me, is the >creation and discharge of this debt between the two people. The justice of >the thing is just icing on the cake. > >Let's look at it this way. Suppose Vlad was still in the Jhereg. The Demon >comes to him and says "I have a problem that I need handled with utmost >discretion. The person who handles this problem for me can expect to have >his territory doubled in size." Vlad says "My territory is big enough for >me, but I have a friend who is interested in expanding. I'll let him know >about the opportunity." He then carries out the hit and is rewarded with a >larger territory. No cash changes hands. Is this "work"? > > Yes. A payment is made in exchange for a killing: territory for death. >Let's change the scenario slightly. The Demon visits Vlad and says "I'm >impressed with your operation. I'm recommending that the Council make you a >baron (he's originally a baronet)and double your territory." Vlad is >flattered and proud. The Demon makes good on his word and Vlad is made a >baron. A week later, the Demon drops by unexpectedly and asks "Do you like >your new digs? All happy and cozy?" When Vlad replies in the affirmative, >The Demon then says "BTW, I have this little problem and I was hoping you'd >know someone who could help me with it." Vlad accepts the contract and >performs the hit gratis as repayment for the promotion arranged by The >Demon. Is this "work"? > > I don't think so; see Gomi's post for better reasons than I can articulate, but also my definition of "work" as assassination for hire: no payment is offered in exchange for the killing. I think Vlad would also beware of Demons bearing gifts, but it's still not "work" unless it was explicit to Vlad that he was being promoted in exchange for killing Mr. J. Random Jhereg. >Maybe we should remove financial gaine from the picture entirely. Morollan >finds himself being blackmailed over some minor but embarassing thing. Vlad >visits The Demon and asks him to call off the blackmail. The Demon, an >obliging fellow, says "Seeing as it's the Lord Morrolan and that blackmail >was unauthorized, I'll write the blackmailer a note telling him to knock it >off. As it turns out, this fellow has caused us a bit of embarassment by >blackmailing several Lords and possibly even embezzling from The >Organization. Maybe you could deliver a letter to him? He'll be at location >X at time Y tomorrow evening for a meeting." Vlad ices the guy. Is this >"work"? > > No; the difference being "work" is assassination for hire, and this is just plain assassination, as a quick solution to aid a friend. >Is it the money changing hands that makes it "work" or is it the intention >of the two parties that makes it "work"? Is it the justice of a "deserved" >death over an "undeserved" death that makes it "work" or not? > > I would argue that Vlad and Timmer engage in a conspiracy to commit murder, as opposed to Timmer hiring Vlad to kill Domm. Money may not necessarily have to change hands for a killing to be "work," but there has to be some concrete payment, something that is more than personal satisfaction. The fact that Vlad is getting a deed for the death complicates matters a bit, but I believe his main motivation in approaching Timmer in the first place to get the deed is that he wants Domm dead, and he knows she'll want Domm dead once she figures out what he did (he knows Dragons). Intending to kill someone does not necessarily make it "work;" and deserved and undeserved have nothing to do with "work," as in most cases, *somebody* thinks the victim deserves it. The implication of "work" is killing done for money, to make a living that way (and thus it's both work and "work"). Out of curiosity, does it matter how the matter is approached? Usually, Vlad gets hired to kill someone; he does not approach somebody and ask if that person would like someone killed. With Timmer, he approaches her and lays out a whole lot of information, and then offers to kill Domm in exchange for the deed. I think this may make a difference; although Vlad is doing it for something tangible as a payment, he both extends the proposal of killing Domm, and accepts it. It's practically a deal with himself. I think Noish-pa's objections to killing are based on killing for a living, as opposed to an objection to killing in general. This is buttressed by the fact that he has no qualms over killing Phoenix Guards in Phoenix (or was it Teckla? Crap, I can't remember), although he can't bring himself to kill a female. Cawti's questions to Kiera seem to imply that she thinks what he did was more than just killing, it was "work" (the whole "did it bother him?" line of questioning). I obviously disagree. I greatly enjoy these philosophical discussions, especially at work (no, not "work"), when I have to be surreptitious about it. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't.