----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Brust" <skzb at dreamcafe.com> To: "Jeff Gibbons" <Log0n5150 at hotmail.com> Cc: <dragaera at dragaera.info> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Hello, I'd like to have an argument (was Re: duh!) > On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 17:28, Jeff Gibbons wrote: > > > > Is society a bit too complex? Then lets turn to nature. When we speak > > > of "life" we refer to a body which assimilates matter into itself and > > > then turns that matter *into* itself. In doing so it will replace all > > > of it's atoms with other atoms. It is, thus, at any time, itself and > > > not-itself. It is itself and something else. That's what life IS: > > > contradiction. Resolve that with your thoughts. > > > > I can see how you arrived at that example, but in my opinion (there is > > that phrase again) the body being made up of parts of "itself" and > > "not-itself" is not inherantly a contradiction as I understand the word. > > Change "life IS a contradiction" to "society is made up of contradictions" > > and I would agree. Life cannot contradict itself and exist. > > > > I beg to differ. Life MUST contradict itself in order to exist. A > living body is constantly dying and being reborn, adding cells to itself > and sloughing off other cells. Death itself is a process (hence all the > legal problems about exactly at what point in an orgamism "death" > occurs. In the time that it has taken me to write this, some numbers of > cells in my body have died; others have been created. Should this > process stop, I would certainly be dead. > > Not neccesarily, but you would be larger. I think that I am using a different definition than you. . . Main Entry: con·tra·dic·tion Pronunciation: "kän-tr&-'dik-sh&n Function: noun 1 : act or an instance of contradicting 2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms> 3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another I am using the second definition, you are using the third. > > > Would you care for one more unresolvable contradiction? This argument > > > we are having is forcing me to examine my attitudes and beliefs as part > > > of the process of expressing my opinion in the most precise way I can. > > > I am, in fact, learning from this argument, though I do not expect to > > > convince you. This leaves you in the uncomfortable position of being > > > unable to convince me of your argument except by admitting that I am > > > right. > > > > > Unless, I am not trying to convince you, rather I am explaining to you how I > > arrived at my conclusion, and leave you with that knowledge to add to your > > ideas, and allow you do as you will with it. > > > > In which case it is not an argument, it is the dispensing of > information. Often of value, but not what we are discussing. > But isn't an argument the assimilation of information from different sources? Weither one accepts it or not is left to the individual, who inevitably reaches his or her own conclusions, but may be swayed by the validity of the information provided. Jeff