On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 10:03:33PM -1000, Charmian <worldserpent at gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:33:05 -0600, Lydia Nickerson <lydy at demesne.com> wrote: > > At 12:36 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > >On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 12:30:17AM -0600, Lydia Nickerson > > ><lydy at demesne.com> wrote: > > >> At 12:22 AM -0600 2/16/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > >> >Thirded. If anything, that aspect of the series is somewhat > > >> >underdeveloped; it's important in one fairly vital way, but the > > >> >reader is not really given the opportunity to understand why the > > >> >character reacts that way, nor does that aspect of her > > >> >personality grow or change detectably. > > >> She was born that way. That's the way her nervous system works. > > >> "Kushiel's Dart" is the visible sign of her physical nature. It's > > >> not a personality trait, any more than tasting cilantro as soupy or > > >> being color blind is a personality trait. > > >You were (presumably) born a woman. Would you say that your > > >understanding of, reaction to, and behavior concerning your > > >gender and sexuality are the same today as what you were born > > >with? > > You said that the reader isn't given the opportunity to understand > > why she reacts as she does, nor does that aspect of her character > > change. As I understood you, you were referring to her sexual > > masochism. Rephrased, you would be saying, if I'm following you > > correctly, that the readers aren't given an opportunity to understand > > why she is a woman, nor does her gender grow or change detectably. > > If I've misunderstood you point, would you please clarify? > I kind of agree with Lydia here. In Kushiel's Dart, the masochism is a > physical condition, just like being a woman or having hair a certain > color. Specifically, a "gift" from the gods. But this makes it in some > ways less interesting, because IRL s/m is generally understood as a > psychological trait/taste preference, rather than a biological thing. > In other words, it seems something outside of Phedre, imposed on her. > But the books don't say that all people into s/m in the land of Terre > D'Ange and the surrounding countries are into it because it's a gift > from the gods, it seems to be portrayed sort of like it is in reality. > So that messes with it a bit for me. In brief -- my complaint isn't that the masochism is a physical condition, but rather that it doesn't affect anything else about her. Take it away and nothing about her personality changes. She has a unique gift, but how does that gift affect her? How does she feel about it? Hate it? Love it? Vague hints. It's not a character trait, it's a plot device. Working within the analogy, a woman's sexuality at 13 is a lot different than it is at 16, 18, 25, 30... it's not static, and it's not just an on-off switch. Or, to use another analogy, we know that Vlad prefers a light, long blade with both a point and a cutting edge, and can fight with a dagger in his off-hand but usually uses spellbreaker or throws things. We know that Phedre prefers... what? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp