From johne.cook Sat Oct 1 10:54:26 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Sat Oct 1 10:54:26 2005 Subject: Phy's _Serenity_ Review Message-ID: http://phywriter.com/archives/2005/10/01/phys-_serenity_-review/ Short review: WOW. Just? WOW. Longer review: There is a very male word that means something along the lines of "brash, reckless confidence". Joss Whedon, writer and director of _Serenity_, has big, brass? confidence. Perhaps you know the story behind the story. Joss Whedon, script-doctor extraordinaire, manic genius behind Buffy, the Vampire-Slayer (the series, not the film dumbed-down from his vision), shopped around this idea of a horse opera in space ? you know, a space opera ? where the good guys and the bad guys aren't just as clear cut as all that. In _Star Wars_, you know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are by the music. In _Serenity_, "good" and "bad" are relative terms, but "manipulation" and "truth" are immutable, and thus is the foundation laid for the smartest, most frenetic sci-fi picture since _Aliens_. The difference is that this picture is following on its own heels. Joss wrote and directed a short-lived series named "Firefly," which got it all right and then was handled all wrong. The two-hour pilot was filmed but not shown until much later, other episodes were shown out of order, three episodes were finished but never aired, and still the series picked up critical mindshare and a diehard audience. The show was a success. Obviously, Fox canceled it. However, in a move that showed he believed in his creation and his fans, Whedon got the first season's episodes put together in the proper order and released as a four-disc set. Then he sat back and waited. The series started small but the word-of-mouth grew, seemingly exponentially. Before long, word got around the world that there was a series out there with the wit of Joss Whedon, the pluck and humor of a Han Solo, and the kind of dialogue that comes around once in a lifetime. Mal: You know, they tell ya to never hit a man with a closed fist but it is, on occasion, hilarious. Zo?: Shepard, isn't the Bible kind of specific about killing? Book: Very specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzy around the area of kneecaps. Simon: I'm trying to put this as delicately as I can. How do I know you won't kill me in my sleep? Captain Reynolds: You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once. If I ever kill you you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed. And so Joss Whedon got the green light, not to film another season for the small screen, but to film another season for the big one. Taking the core ideas for a second season, Joss wrapped them into one feature film, _Serenity_, which opened today, September 30, 2005. I mention the date because this film is kind of historic, a space opera that is big, bad, bold, and brash. Everybody's different this time around - the primary action takes place a few months after the events of the series. Captain Mal Reynolds, channeling Han Solo without the governing love of a princess Leia, is harder, the mercenary Jayne is more vicious and self-preserving, everyone else is skinnier, and the crew is two members short - Inara, the companion, has been driven off to find love, or perhaps because of it, and Shepherd Book has found a flock where he is able to use the talents he can talk about rather than the ones he can't. Zoe, the First Mate, is stone in love with her husband, the kookie, vacillating pilot who is only calm when in the thick of the worst action ("I am a leaf on the wind - watch how I soar"). Kaylee, the mechanic, silently pines for Simon, the Doctor, who is still oblivious, and River, his possibly superhuman, possibly deranged sister, is the key to a puzzle larger than the entire galaxy, a weight that no one denies is too cruel to bear, but no one seems inclined to help her with. This will come back to haunt them. In fact, there are powerful forces hunting her down for what she knows, or might. Somehow, Joss has managed to keep the loyal Firefly fans happy while introducing his franchise to a whole new audience, a neat trick. That, alone, would be enough for most directors, but it turns out that Whedon's just warming up. Like most mortal men, he cheerfully assembles his characters, his universe, his franchise, and then he plays in it. We nod and smile. Then he gleefully dissembles it all, breaking every scriptwriting rule in the process. The bad guys are the good guys, the good guys are the bad guys, and the Reavers? Well, let's just say that you never want to mess with the Reavers. Ever. And yet it is the mystery of the implacable, ferocious Reavers that, taken with Rivers prodigious talents that form a truly compelling third act, ripe with moral implications that cause us to look at ourselves, at our own times, and wonder about our own motives. Unlike many lesser films, there are so many things that just cannot be guessed in advance, such is the reckless fervor Whedon has with his story. Nobody and nothing are safe. That kind of freedom is liberating, and terrifying. Another thing; this movie is funny. Really funny. The thing is that the humor takes place in unguarded moments when you are most terrified, or should be. The humor is so down-to-earth, so authentic, that you can sense the zest and affection that Whedon has for these deeply flawed characters. I dig that. This movie is very dark and yet is so full of life ? and death ? that it is positively crackles with ideas and plot twists. At one point, First Mate Zoe says "It's a fair bet the Alliance is going to know what's coming." Mal says "They aren't going to see /this/ coming", and he's right, and it's the coolest ploy, actually not knowing where Whedon is going next. I reveled in that novelty until Whedon busted me in the mouth, and then broke my heart. By the time the film was over, I felt like /I'd/ been in the war, and I was just in the audience. This is smart, entertaining science fiction. It is also meant for the grown-up audience, and nothing that you'd want to take your kids to. I mean it. The first Star Wars film was fun for the whole family. This, frankly, is not. It is a brawnier, darker, more mature film, and is not for the innocent. There is violence of ideas and situations here that is far, far too strong for younger kids or people who thought Star Wars was "edgy". You don't know the half of it. In this universe, Mal Reynolds as Han Solo not only fires first, he fires last, and again just to keep the chambers clean on his weapon. Yes, he is capable of love, but that love compels him into a plan so daring, so foolhardy that? well, you'll just have to see for yourself. _Serenity_ is not a perfect picture, but it is jam-packed with ideas, action, moral quandaries, and enough snappy dialogue to keep you laughing while you're cringing, and hoping while you're despairing. It is a major achievement and forever challenges those lesser directors who caved into the fans who clamored to bring back Spock (Star Trek III) and Han Solo (Star Wars IV). In this universe, nothing is safe, little is sacred, and we are somehow better for it. If we survive. The Operative: "I'd like to solve this like civilized men. I'm not threatening you, I'm unarmed?" Mal: "Good." Draws pistol and fires? -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From greyw01f Sat Oct 1 18:34:01 2005 From: greyw01f (J C) Date: Sat Oct 1 18:34:01 2005 Subject: Phy's _Serenity_ Review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://phywriter.com/archives/2005/10/01/phys-_serenity_-review/ Me, I' m an idea man. It's my idea that the world exists in, on, and around ideas. Our times have key ideas. And, believe it or not, it's not the idea that drives the movie _Armageddon_. Joss has picked up on the subconscious stream of thought that is driving us--one that has been driving us for some time now. It is not about America saving the world. That only happened cause America happened to be the free agent of the world and moved to stop the world's first stroke of evil in the new era of post-colonialism, which of course is driven by the need to create the perfect world. This need is a new human need, driven in part, I imagine, by the dawning realization that even our subconscious shies away from, that our God, so long invulnerable to the pains of life, indeed, the very author of the pains of our lives, is gone--and maybe never was here in the first place. We need a new god to shepherd us through this age of humanity's adolescence, where the potentials of human behaviour, and the span of human possibility is becoming evident, but where we are still ultimately children with no idea about true responsibility. This movie succeeds because it doesn't talk about anyone saving the world. It talks about the responsibility of those who live within it. How many movies have you guys seen lately that talks about moral responsibility on a species-wide scale, that isn't just fantasy-driven crap that involves anything from nature spirits (that we must somehow champion) to the simple story of the errors of our own ways (mistakes that of course disappear under the erasing effects of our wonderfull loud and destructive BFGs)...? Hollywood had better keep paying this man. Jon From FRIEDA2133 Sun Oct 2 03:42:57 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 2 03:42:57 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie Message-ID: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> Hi, That's my short review of the movie too. WOW! Have to see it again. Suggestion: Do not leave before the credits start rolling. Now I get to read the book Serenity (author Keith R.A. DeCandido). Bought it, but would not read it until I saw the movie. Also, have to watch the Firefly episodes again on the SciFi channel (Fridays) And a question for Steven Brust: Which special preview of the movie did you get to see? I heard there were several versions. Hopefully, in the future, we get to read a Firefly novel by Steven Brust. He has finished the first draft already. http://www.livejournal.com/users/skzbrust/ October 1, 2005. Bye. Linda G. From johne.cook Sun Oct 2 14:19:02 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Sun Oct 2 14:19:02 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie In-Reply-To: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> References: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/05, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > Hi, > > That's my short review of the movie too. > > WOW! > Hopefully, in the future, we get to read a Firefly novel by Steven Brust. He > has > finished the first draft already. > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/skzbrust/ October 1, 2005. > > Bye. > > Linda G. I was wondering if Steve allowed for the cast movements in his draft (I'm being deliberately vague here). -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From nstacy Sun Oct 2 15:39:42 2005 From: nstacy (Noah Stacy) Date: Sun Oct 2 15:39:42 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie In-Reply-To: References: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> Message-ID: <6072ce25a59a0d732dd57fbd867e8776@cinci.rr.com> On Oct 2, 2005, at 3:18 PM, Johne Cook wrote: > On 10/2/05, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >> Hi, >> >> That's my short review of the movie too. >> >> WOW! > >> Hopefully, in the future, we get to read a Firefly novel by Steven >> Brust. He >> has >> finished the first draft already. >> >> http://www.livejournal.com/users/skzbrust/ October 1, 2005. >> >> Bye. >> >> Linda G. > > I was wondering if Steve allowed for the cast movements in his draft > (I'm being deliberately vague here). > I had that thought as well... though... well, now I'm not so sure. For some reason I had the idea that he'd seen one of the previews, but a glance at his LJ doesn't confirm this... I think I extrapolated from "Speaking of Firefly, I saw the movie in its final form and liked it." I'm sure the novel'll be shiny, though. N. "God's not on our side, because he hates idiots also." --The Man with No Name, from "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" From skzb Sun Oct 2 21:21:46 2005 From: skzb (Steven Brust) Date: Sun Oct 2 21:21:46 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie In-Reply-To: References: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> Message-ID: <434095B3.5050207@dreamcafe.com> I'd seen the movie twice before I started the draft, but the short version is, I'm setting the book between the TV show and the movie--in particular, right after the comic book. Johne Cook wrote: > On 10/2/05, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>That's my short review of the movie too. >> >>WOW! > > >>Hopefully, in the future, we get to read a Firefly novel by Steven Brust. He >>has >>finished the first draft already. >> >>http://www.livejournal.com/users/skzbrust/ October 1, 2005. >> >>Bye. >> >>Linda G. > > > I was wondering if Steve allowed for the cast movements in his draft > (I'm being deliberately vague here). > -- > johne cook - wisconsin, usa > | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From johne.cook Sun Oct 2 21:32:44 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Sun Oct 2 21:32:44 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie In-Reply-To: <434095B3.5050207@dreamcafe.com> References: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> <434095B3.5050207@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/05, Steven Brust wrote: > I'd seen the movie twice before I started the draft, but the short > version is, I'm setting the book between the TV show and the movie--in > particular, right after the comic book. Cool. I enjoyed the comics (and I don't read comics, normally). I don't know if this has been asked before - has Joss / his people been reasonably open to Firefly genre submissions? -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From FRIEDA2133 Sun Oct 2 21:48:19 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 2 21:48:19 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie Message-ID: Hi, nstacy at cinci.rr.com wrote on 10/2/2005 4:40 PM >For some reason I had the idea that he'd seen one of the >previews, but a glance at his LJ doesn't confirm this... You are probably remembering this: On Steve Brust's editor's website, there was discussion about Dzur and a preview of the Serenity movie and someone posted about it on dragaera.info . Jonathan Vos Posted on June 28, 2005, 11:57 AM on : http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006489.html >At which point I must say how cool it was to be at SFRA and hear >BOTH Elizabeth Bear and Steve Brust. They defined the "cool table" >when formal events paused and drinks began. Steve Brust did one-up >others at said table by describing "Serenity" to the jealous >(John Barnes et al.) with some faux spoilers. Then we discussed this posting on dragaera.info ... but I think this was in the month of the big meltdown. Now we know he saw two previews and the final version. Bye. Linda G. From skzb Mon Oct 3 01:12:16 2005 From: skzb (Steven Brust) Date: Mon Oct 3 01:12:16 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie In-Reply-To: References: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> <434095B3.5050207@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <4340CBB6.3040102@dreamcafe.com> Johne Cook wrote: > On 10/2/05, Steven Brust wrote: > >>I'd seen the movie twice before I started the draft, but the short >>version is, I'm setting the book between the TV show and the movie--in >>particular, right after the comic book. > > > Cool. I enjoyed the comics (and I don't read comics, normally). > > I don't know if this has been asked before - has Joss / his people > been reasonably open to Firefly genre submissions? I guess I'll find out soon. From carpovita Mon Oct 3 10:01:24 2005 From: carpovita (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon Oct 3 10:01:24 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <4340CBB6.3040102@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit (May 2006). Said event will feature, among other things a Dragaeran feast. After much discussion about the implementation, structure and content of this culinary adventure Steve and I have come up with an opportunity for all of you. Rather than Steve or the Directorship of the summit dictating what the feast will be, we have decided to open it up to you, the fans. So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will be taking submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for any part of the feast from suggestions on food courses to table linens and background music. Once I have enough suggestions and recipes to define the feast I will open up the options to this list for a basic democratic vote. The only request that I make is that all aspects of the feast stay PG and Dragaera related. I know several of you will be able to not only give me recipes, but the references to back up the existence of your culinary creations, and that is exactly what I'd like. The end goal is a feast inspired by Steve, designed by the fans, cooked by professionals, and eaten and enjoyed by all of us. Thanks in advance for your interest and involvement. Rion Bergquist ~ Exec Director Opus Fantasy Arts Festival and cheerful member of House Jhereg From mtiller Mon Oct 3 10:49:29 2005 From: mtiller (mtiller@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 10:49:29 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <20051003154914.BCMS3160.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> From: "Rion Bergquist" Date: 2005/10/03 Mon PM 03:01:12 GMT To: Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit >(May 2006). I was not aware of this, would it be possible to have details please? Regards Mark Tiller ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From johne.cook Mon Oct 3 11:16:58 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Mon Oct 3 11:16:58 2005 Subject: Serenity the movie In-Reply-To: <4340CBB6.3040102@dreamcafe.com> References: <30.7c20fa28.3070f788@aol.com> <434095B3.5050207@dreamcafe.com> <4340CBB6.3040102@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: OSC liked _I, Robot_ (my favorite movie from last summer). He loves _Serenity_ (my favorite film from this summer). He even reveals his heart about a prospective _Ender's Game_ movie, and how he feels _Serenity_ might relate to those hopes / fears. http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2005-09-30-extra.shtml -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From starshadw Mon Oct 3 11:24:06 2005 From: starshadw (starshadw@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 11:24:06 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <8C7964DFAAE5ECB-CE8-3795F@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> I do hope more information on this and other events for the summit will be made available (as well as any cost, etc.). My first trip to OPUS was this past year and I am already excited about my second one! Stacy, who has been in Kiera-mode (aka silent and unseen) on the list for a long time -----Original Message----- From: Rion Bergquist To: dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:01:12 -0600 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit (May 2006). Said event will feature, among other things a Dragaeran feast. After much discussion about the implementation, structure and content of this culinary adventure Steve and I have come up with an opportunity for all of you. Rather than Steve or the Directorship of the summit dictating what the feast will be, we have decided to open it up to you, the fans. So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will be taking submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for any part of the feast from suggestions on food courses to table linens and background music. Once I have enough suggestions and recipes to define the feast I will open up the options to this list for a basic democratic vote. The only request that I make is that all aspects of the feast stay PG and Dragaera related. I know several of you will be able to not only give me recipes, but the references to back up the existence of your culinary creations, and that is exactly what I'd like. The end goal is a feast inspired by Steve, designed by the fans, cooked by professionals, and eaten and enjoyed by all of us. Thanks in advance for your interest and involvement. Rion Bergquist ~ Exec Director Opus Fantasy Arts Festival and cheerful member of House Jhereg From starshadw Mon Oct 3 11:25:19 2005 From: starshadw (starshadw@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 11:25:19 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <20051003154914.BCMS3160.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> References: <20051003154914.BCMS3160.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <8C7964E2833F8DB-CE8-3798E@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Mark: The summit will be at OPUS Fest 2006: www.opusfest.com Stacy -----Original Message----- From: mtiller at ntlworld.com To: Rion Bergquist ; dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:49:14 +0000 Subject: Re: International Burst Fan Summit stuff From: "Rion Bergquist" Date: 2005/10/03 Mon PM 03:01:12 GMT To: Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit >(May 2006). I was not aware of this, would it be possible to have details please? Regards Mark Tiller ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From carpovita Mon Oct 3 11:40:18 2005 From: carpovita (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon Oct 3 11:40:18 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <20051003154914.BCMS3160.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b001c5c839$19dbbf50$0900a8c0@Carpovita> Hmmm I suppose it has been a while since the event was mentioned... Opus Fantasy Arts Festival to host the World's 1st Steven Brust Fan Summit! The Place: Denver Colorado - Hyatt Tech Center The Time: May 19-21 Website: www.opusfest.com Events to include the following: Panels on all things Dragaera starring the creator of said world Steven Brust, and knowing Steve these panels will spill over into various philosophical, religious and political conversations and bar debates In addition to sitting panels Steve will also be doing a session of book signings, a reading or two, perhaps an impromptu game of poker or Dragon Poker, and at some point he will end up with a guitar in his hand and be compelled to sing while playing it. In addition to showcasing Steve's marvelous talents Opus will also be host to: - A weekend long Live Action game set in Dragaera - if you love the books, then perhaps you should try to play in them. - Dragaeran Costuming contest and panels - A Dragaeran Feast - The first official release (assuming we meet deadlines) of the Dragaeran Tarot and the debut of several games based on those described in the books themselves. - A Dragaeran House Sorting... What house are you? - Dragaeran Art and products (Bumper stickers, house logos etc.) In addition to the Dragaera-centric events Opus is a full function multi-track fantasy event. Live music, demos, panels, film, art, vendors, and more - three days of fun that are in the end - all about your imagination. -----Original Message----- From: mtiller at ntlworld.com [mailto:mtiller at ntlworld.com] Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:49 AM To: Rion Bergquist; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: International Burst Fan Summit stuff From: "Rion Bergquist" Date: 2005/10/03 Mon PM 03:01:12 GMT To: Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit >(May 2006). I was not aware of this, would it be possible to have details please? Regards Mark Tiller ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From howard Mon Oct 3 12:47:40 2005 From: howard (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon Oct 3 12:47:40 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> References: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <43416EB4.2060600@brazee.net> Rion Bergquist wrote: >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit (May 2006). > > Where? From wilson.max Mon Oct 3 12:48:11 2005 From: wilson.max (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon Oct 3 12:48:11 2005 Subject: [OT] Ender's Game Message-ID: <2ddbda5f05100310484465833@mail.gmail.com> On 10/3/05, Johne Cook wrote: > OSC liked _I, Robot_ (my favorite movie from last summer). He loves > _Serenity_ (my favorite film from this summer). He even reveals > his heart about a prospective _Ender's Game_ movie, > and how he feels _Serenity_ might relate to those hopes / fears. One thing that I think bothers me about OSC's superhumans (Ender Wiggin, Alvin Maker) is that they manage to evoke deep feelings of loyalty in other characters without actually being either markedly good or likable. It always makes me feel like it's some alternate Orson-universe where people have emotions subtly different from anyone I know. On the plus side, an Ender movie--unlike a book--would have actors and a director contributing personality as well as the scriptwriter, so it might end up feeling more genuine. I'd probably consider watching it under the right circumstances. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From bonham15 Mon Oct 3 13:35:38 2005 From: bonham15 (andy) Date: Mon Oct 3 13:35:38 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <8C7964E2833F8DB-CE8-3798E@MBLK-M07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20051003183517.EIVD4942.centrmmtao03.cox.net@Asminath> Best of luck! Will we get to meet this burst fellow in the subject line, or will mr. brust be there? (gentle sarcasm, for the number of times I alone have mistyped dragaera, I should be stuffed in a burlap sack and beaten with waffle bats) and -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of starshadw at aol.com Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:25 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: International Burst Fan Summit stuff Mark: The summit will be at OPUS Fest 2006: www.opusfest.com Stacy -----Original Message----- From: mtiller at ntlworld.com To: Rion Bergquist ; dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 15:49:14 +0000 Subject: Re: International Burst Fan Summit stuff From: "Rion Bergquist" Date: 2005/10/03 Mon PM 03:01:12 GMT To: Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit >(May 2006). I was not aware of this, would it be possible to have details please? Regards Mark Tiller ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From Log0n5150 Mon Oct 3 13:40:36 2005 From: Log0n5150 (Jeff G.) Date: Mon Oct 3 13:40:36 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff References: <20051003183517.EIVD4942.centrmmtao03.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "andy" To: ; Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: RE: International Burst Fan Summit stuff > Best of luck! Will we get to meet this burst fellow in the subject line, or > will mr. brust be there? (gentle sarcasm, for the number of times I alone > have mistyped dragaera, I should be stuffed in a burlap sack and beaten with > waffle bats) > > and > mmmmmm. . . waffle bats. . . . . . . jeff From mia_mcdavid Mon Oct 3 17:54:50 2005 From: mia_mcdavid (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon Oct 3 17:54:50 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> References: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> I think they really ought to have winneasaurus in sauce. Correct spelling and nature of sauce elude me but are in canon. Would it be OK to have belly dancers for entertainment? We wouldn't want to keep Steve from eating; would it be OK with him to have another drummer? Rion Bergquist wrote: >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit (May 2006). > >Said event will feature, among other things a Dragaeran feast. After much >discussion about the implementation, structure and content of this culinary >adventure Steve and I have come up with an opportunity for all of you. >Rather than Steve or the Directorship of the summit dictating what the feast >will be, we have decided to open it up to you, the fans. > >So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will be taking >submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for any part of the >feast from suggestions on food courses to table linens and background music. >Once I have enough suggestions and recipes to define the feast I will open >up the options to this list for a basic democratic vote. > >The only request that I make is that all aspects of the feast stay PG and >Dragaera related. I know several of you will be able to not only give me >recipes, but the references to back up the existence of your culinary >creations, and that is exactly what I'd like. > >The end goal is a feast inspired by Steve, designed by the fans, cooked by >professionals, and eaten and enjoyed by all of us. > >Thanks in advance for your interest and involvement. > >Rion Bergquist >~ Exec Director Opus Fantasy Arts Festival and cheerful member of House >Jhereg > > > > > From johne.cook Mon Oct 3 18:10:45 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Mon Oct 3 18:10:45 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> References: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/3/05, Mia McDavid wrote: > I think they really ought to have winneasaurus in sauce. Correct > spelling and nature of sauce elude me but are in canon. How hard would it be to recreate a Valabar's? That would rock. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From mia_mcdavid Mon Oct 3 18:22:04 2005 From: mia_mcdavid (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon Oct 3 18:22:04 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: References: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4341AEDD.8090409@comcast.net> Damned hard, given how Steve goes on about it in the book. Still, it'd be fun to try! Johne Cook wrote: >On 10/3/05, Mia McDavid wrote: > > >>I think they really ought to have winneasaurus in sauce. Correct >>spelling and nature of sauce elude me but are in canon. >> >> > >How hard would it be to recreate a Valabar's? That would rock. >-- >johne cook - wisconsin, usa >| http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com > > > > From carpovita Mon Oct 3 19:24:29 2005 From: carpovita (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon Oct 3 19:24:29 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00bb01c5c879$f2eaa870$0900a8c0@Carpovita> I'd need detailed descriptions -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Johne Cook Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 5:11 PM Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: International Burst Fan Summit stuff On 10/3/05, Mia McDavid wrote: > I think they really ought to have winneasaurus in sauce. Correct > spelling and nature of sauce elude me but are in canon. How hard would it be to recreate a Valabar's? That would rock. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From carpovita Mon Oct 3 19:24:36 2005 From: carpovita (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon Oct 3 19:24:36 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00bc01c5c879$f59a5f20$0900a8c0@Carpovita> just so happens I have access to a couple of belly dancer troupes... -----Original Message----- From: Mia McDavid [mailto:mia_mcdavid at comcast.net] Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 3:54 PM To: Rion Bergquist Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: International Burst Fan Summit stuff I think they really ought to have winneasaurus in sauce. Correct spelling and nature of sauce elude me but are in canon. Would it be OK to have belly dancers for entertainment? We wouldn't want to keep Steve from eating; would it be OK with him to have another drummer? Rion Bergquist wrote: >As some of you know there is an impending Brust fan summit (May 2006). > >Said event will feature, among other things a Dragaeran feast. After much >discussion about the implementation, structure and content of this culinary >adventure Steve and I have come up with an opportunity for all of you. >Rather than Steve or the Directorship of the summit dictating what the feast >will be, we have decided to open it up to you, the fans. > >So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will be taking >submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for any part of the >feast from suggestions on food courses to table linens and background music. >Once I have enough suggestions and recipes to define the feast I will open >up the options to this list for a basic democratic vote. > >The only request that I make is that all aspects of the feast stay PG and >Dragaera related. I know several of you will be able to not only give me >recipes, but the references to back up the existence of your culinary >creations, and that is exactly what I'd like. > >The end goal is a feast inspired by Steve, designed by the fans, cooked by >professionals, and eaten and enjoyed by all of us. > >Thanks in advance for your interest and involvement. > >Rion Bergquist >~ Exec Director Opus Fantasy Arts Festival and cheerful member of House >Jhereg > > > > > From FRIEDA2133 Mon Oct 3 22:21:33 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 3 22:21:33 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <20.4e886db4.30734f31@aol.com> carpovita at earthlink.net wrote on 10/3/2005 11:02:18 AM >So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will >be taking submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for >any part of the feast from suggestions on food courses to table >linens and background music. Heh, and the winner is Vlad's feast at Valabar and Sons or Valabar's as described in the prologue of the book Dzur: Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Steve Brust's editor, wrote on http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006489.html June 29, 2005, 05:45 PM: >It starts about ten minutes after Issola ends. Reading the prologue >made me hungry. And, of course, Rion, you would have to be able to read that whole section in order to duplicate the feast as much as possible. Hopefully, Valabar's is described in the prologue. If not, here is this: "The inn, called the Silver Shadow" in Dragaera City. "Within, all was tasteful, and even somewhat reminiscent of Valabar's Restaurant in distant Adrilankha. There were four rooms, called the Big Room, the Oak Room, the Cherry Room, and the Long Room, each appointed differently, yet each blending harmoniously with the next. We will not try our readers' patience with descriptions of rooms we will never see, so we will content ourselves with briefly sketching the one in which we find ourselves, that being the Cherry Room, immediately to the right as one entered from the street into the Long Room. The Cherry Room, then, was distinguished by cherrywood booths, a cherrywood bar, and a large hearth in which burned, of course, cherrywood, filling the room with the gentle, sweet smell of this most prized of hardwoods. Five Hundred Years After, paperback, Chapter the Nineteenth, page 286. Bye. Linda G. From steve.rapaport Tue Oct 4 12:08:25 2005 From: steve.rapaport (Steve Rapaport) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:08:25 2005 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 1, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <20051004170005.63C54E93D3@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20051004170005.63C54E93D3@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: > > > Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Steve Brust's editor, wrote on > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006489.html > June 29, 2005, 05:45 PM: > > >It starts about ten minutes after Issola ends. Reading the prologue > >made me hungry. > MMMMMmmmm.. Smoked kethna. Mmmmmm. -- \Steve the Younger From attjen Tue Oct 4 12:37:44 2005 From: attjen (Matthew Jennings) Date: Tue Oct 4 12:37:44 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <977c4897a955.97a955977c48@gwu.edu> As for music, besides the obvious Boiled in Lead, you might want to find some 3 Mustaphas 3. (I'd suggest "Heart of Uncle" as long as you play it louder.) Which actually reminds me, can anyone... ... confirm or deny that the chapter in Phoenix that begins "the Loquacious Madman on Czigarel Street" is a somewhat oblique 3m3 reference? Attjen From wilson.max Tue Oct 4 13:02:00 2005 From: wilson.max (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:02:00 2005 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 1, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: References: <20051004170005.63C54E93D3@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510041101t596f429cwe226087e93a82755@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Steve Brust's editor, wrote on > > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006489.html > > June 29, 2005, 05:45 PM: > > > > >It starts about ten minutes after Issola ends. Reading the prologue > > >made me hungry. > > MMMMMmmmm.. Smoked kethna. Mmmmmm. Hmm. From that same link, Will "scifantasy" Frank ::: (view all by) ::: June 28, 2005, 10:16 AM: Has anyone ever told you that there are times when you're just plain evil? Wait. I did. Back when it was Sethra Lavode... Is this a reference to the archetype who originally inspired Sethra Lavode, or just some fannish reference to a campaign which incorporated Sethra as a character? Who was involved in that original campaign? (David Dyer-Bennet?) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From kate.nepveu Tue Oct 4 13:06:18 2005 From: kate.nepveu (Kate Nepveu) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:06:18 2005 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 1, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510041101t596f429cwe226087e93a82755@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051004170005.63C54E93D3@gw.dd-b.net> <2ddbda5f0510041101t596f429cwe226087e93a82755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <360751e50510041106l5711ece0rcf2621cd3e043570@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Steve Brust's editor, wrote on > > > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006489.html > > > June 29, 2005, 05:45 PM: > > > >It starts about ten minutes after Issola ends. Reading the prologue > > > >made me hungry. > Hmm. From that same link, > Will "scifantasy" Frank ::: (view all by) ::: June 28, 2005, 10:16 AM: > Has anyone ever told you that there are times when you're just plain evil? > Wait. I did. Back when it was Sethra Lavode... > Is this a reference to the archetype who originally inspired Sethra Lavode, > or just some fannish reference to a campaign which incorporated Sethra as a > character? Who was involved in that original campaign? (David Dyer-Bennet?) That's a reference to _Sethra Lavode_ the book. See here: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004920.html -- Kate Nepveu kate.nepveu at gmail.com From scott Tue Oct 4 13:09:39 2005 From: scott (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:09:39 2005 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 1, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510041101t596f429cwe226087e93a82755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fa801c5c90f$095b2db0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >>Will "scifantasy" Frank ::: (view all by) ::: June 28, 2005, 10:16 AM: >>Has anyone ever told you that there are times when you're just plain evil? >> >>Wait. I did. Back when it was Sethra Lavode... >Is this a reference to the archetype who originally inspired Sethra Lavode, >or just some fannish reference to a campaign which incorporated Sethra as a >character? Who was involved in that original campaign? (David Dyer-Bennet?) >Max I think he's just referring to a similar post by Teresa back when _Sethra Lavode_ was sent to her for review. From howard Thu Oct 6 09:09:10 2005 From: howard (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu Oct 6 09:09:10 2005 Subject: Firefly Message-ID: <43452FF9.5000303@brazee.net> I never heard of Firefly until reading reviews of the movie. When I go to SF conventions with my son's family, I often have a different set of books to be signed from him - he has all the novels based upon movies and TV series, and I have the others. From johne.cook Thu Oct 6 09:30:21 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Thu Oct 6 09:30:21 2005 Subject: "Four for NaNo" - tell Johne what to write for 30 days Message-ID: http://dkamagazine.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=959 I competed in last year's NaNoWriMo competition, National Novel Writing Month, and completed the first draft of a 55,000 word pulpy space opera called "The Sky Pirate". I set a goal of seeing if I could write a novel-length story and make it entertaining, thoughtful, and reasonably coherent. I was startled when it the project came together as a fun and cohesive story, on time, and over the alloted word-count. I was considering whether to take part in this year's NaNo competiton and it occured to me that I've proven what I set out to prove, and learned what I set out to learn. A picture has been clarifying over the past weeks and has finally come into focus within in the past 24 hours. I was chatting with Bill Snodgrass (Editor at The Sword Review) and Lee S. King (an Editor with me at Dragons Knights, and Angels magazine) last night when the idea suddenly blurted out - if I'd achieved what I was aiming for with the novel-length stuff, what next? So to cut to the chase, I'm going to attempt to write four finished, theoretically publishable short stories of at least 3000 words in length during the four weeks of November, 2005, one per week, beginning 12:01 am November 1st, and ending at the stroke of midnight November 30th. But wait, there's more... I'm going to take votes from you all on the genre(s) that I will be writing from for two of the stories, and my son will be providing a third (courtesy of a suggestion from my lovely, formerly benevolent wife). There's still more... I was telling this to my sister this afternoon at lunch (hey, Heph) and she cheerily blurted out, "yeah, and you should run a common thread through all of them and tie them all together in the fourth story". I used to like her so much - I don't remember this wicked streak in her. Must be the four kids. So here we are, a challenge that initially sounded like good, clean fun, and has somehow taken on a life of its own and now is staring at me with big, gnarly fangs and an impoverished glint in its rheumy right eye. I'm going to set up a poll here for the genre to be employed the first week of November, and and then won't setup the next poll until the first week for the second week, and so on, so I won't know ahead of time what genre I'll have to tackle next. I'm calling these stories "Four for NaNo". While this isn't technically a NaNoWriMo-sanctioned event, I feel that this challenge captures the general spirit of the event while being customized for the next facet of my skillset that I need the most work on. Also, enlisting aid from you, the reader, builds in the element of accountability, my very own pointy stick. The possibility for absolute, crushing, humiliating failure of the highest profile is an unintended bonus for some of you - you know who you are. Wink The poll is at the DKA forums and the stories will be posted at the end of each week at my writing blog. So, yeah. Vote early and vote often. And hey, if I've ever been remotely kind to you in any way and I don't happen to currently owe you money, be gentle - this only started out as my idea. ;) Update: Ah. I think this is where cookies kill. ; ) It appears that you need to complete at least a minimial registration at DKA (only three things needed for that, a username, password, and e-mail address), and then you can see the poll and post on the thread: http://dkamagazine.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=959 -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From FRIEDA2133 Thu Oct 6 19:52:47 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 6 19:52:47 2005 Subject: International Brust Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <9.4deb3470.307720d4@aol.com> Hi, Maybe the House of Jhereg have conventions at hotels and Valabar's does the catering. Or maybe like Khaavren's cook, www.opusfest.com 's cook could have been trained at Valabar's. >From a dinner from the Cook at Whitecrest Manor: "She therefore spared no effort, requiring the maid to run down to the market for the freshest squabs, the choicest cuts of kethna, a supply of goose fat, cresent-onions, striped mushrooms, marrows, basil, peppers, and saltpea pods; all of this while she, the cook, rummaged in the cellar for the best wines, the purest flour, the freshest garlic, and the most active yeasts. She had been trained, the reader ought to understand, at the same Valabar's Restaurant that still exists in Adrilankha today, and from which those most concerned with victualing still hire, or attempt to hire, the cooking staff; it being said that a man who has cleaned tables at Valabar's will absorb more of the art of cooking than the head chef for any other inn or tavern in the Empire; an exaggeration which, if not entirely true today, was much closer to the truth during the Interregnum." ... "When the sweet(a puff pastry filled with thin slices of cheese and covered with strawberries)" The Paths of the Dead, paperback, Chapter the Fourteenth, page 125, 126. Of course, it could turn out that your cook was not trained at Valabar's and just cleaned tables there. Bye. Linda G. From FRIEDA2133 Thu Oct 6 20:24:07 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 6 20:24:07 2005 Subject: International Brust Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <199.48a93174.30772830@aol.com> How about a party at Castle Black? "Morrolan had arranged for confections from Nacine, where there were two quite respectable bakers. In addition, he had imported creepers from the Shallow Sea, squabs from the Southern Coast, beef and kethna from the surrounding peasants (prepared by chefs discovered and recommended by Teldra), and wines from as far away as Aerethia. For entertainment, he had raided both Hartre and Adrilankha for instrumentalists, singers, and jongleurs, as well as bringing in several of the local peasant orchestras, with their traditional instrumentation of violin, bagpipe, fretted demkor, and slimwhistle. There were, as well, a number of cittern players, some of them quite skilled, others only providing accompaniment for their voices, which in these cases was never less than pleasant." Sethra Lavode, paperback, Chapter the Seventy-Fourth, page 65 From scott Fri Oct 7 09:27:44 2005 From: scott (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri Oct 7 09:27:44 2005 Subject: Valabar's In-Reply-To: <9.4deb3470.307720d4@aol.com> Message-ID: <1f0401c5cb4b$87b4b580$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> ------------- She had been trained, the reader ought to understand, at the same Valabar's Restaurant that still exists in Adrilankha today, and from which those most concerned with victualing still hire, or attempt to hire, the cooking staff; it being said that a man who has cleaned tables at Valabar's will absorb more of the art of cooking than the head chef for any other inn or tavern in the Empire; ------------- I'd not thought about it before, but this gives the impression that Valabar's maintains a good-sized staff of Dragaeran employees, including the cooking staff. I'd always pegged Valabar's as a "family" restaurant where the staff would be nearly entirely Eastern. I figured that the Valabar's did the cooking and management while their cousins and other indirect extended family took care of the more menial tasks. No big revelations there. It just makes me wonder what Valabar's is really like inside. From dd-b Sat Oct 8 12:29:08 2005 From: dd-b (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Sat Oct 8 12:29:08 2005 Subject: International Burst Fan Summit stuff In-Reply-To: <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> References: <00a201c5c82b$4c7a7590$0900a8c0@Carpovita> <4341A875.7060005@comcast.net> Message-ID: <87slvbyl27.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Mia McDavid writes: > I think they really ought to have winneasaurus in sauce. Correct > spelling and nature of sauce elude me but are in canon. Would that be Red Dragon anise-jelled Winneasaurus? I believe I can provide that recipe. The result is a platter of cold meat pieces and cold jelled pieces, *very* strongly flavored with soy, anise, and ginger. I haven't had it in years and my mouth still waters when I think of it. It's eaten in relatively small quantities. I'm not sure of its proper place in the sequence of a feast; I don't think that was ever worked out. I don't think of it as a primary entree in Earth terms. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From johne.cook Sat Oct 8 16:07:56 2005 From: johne.cook (Johne Cook) Date: Sat Oct 8 16:07:56 2005 Subject: "Four for NaNo" - tell Johne what to write for 30 days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/6/05, Johne Cook wrote: > So to cut to the chase, I'm going to attempt to write four finished, > theoretically publishable short stories of at least 3000 words in > length during the four weeks of November, 2005, one per week, > beginning 12:01 am November 1st, and ending at the stroke of midnight > November 30th. Ok, the forums poll seems to be too clumsy, difficult, or restrictive, so I've come up with a Plan B. Hit my writing blog, [url=http://phywriter.com/]phywriter.com[/url], and vote on the poll in the Sidebar. The advantage of this is that there is no registration, no hoops, just a nice selection of Option buttons. Not only that, you can add your own category if you are so inclined. We'll try that for awhile and see how that works. [img]http://phywriter.com/images/fournano_poll.jpg[/img] -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From mia_mcdavid Sat Oct 8 22:04:48 2005 From: mia_mcdavid (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat Oct 8 22:04:48 2005 Subject: Serenity Message-ID: <434879EB.6060704@comcast.net> So, hubby and I finally saw Serenity. Who else has seen it? What did y'all think? This being very On Topic because our Main man is writing a Serenity novel. Mia From matthew Sat Oct 8 22:23:42 2005 From: matthew (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat Oct 8 22:23:42 2005 Subject: Serenity In-Reply-To: <434879EB.6060704@comcast.net> References: <434879EB.6060704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051009032312.GL19385@infodancer.org> On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 09:01:15PM -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > So, hubby and I finally saw Serenity. Who else has seen it? What did > y'all think? This being very On Topic because our Main man is writing a > Serenity novel. I was fairly wowed. It's simultaneously true to the series and a completion of the series, while stepping the quality of the effects and the drama of the situation up several notches to movie quality. I reviewed it here: http://speculativefiction.org/weblog/entry/39339.jsp From nstacy Sat Oct 8 23:52:53 2005 From: nstacy (Noah Stacy) Date: Sat Oct 8 23:52:53 2005 Subject: Serenity In-Reply-To: <20051009032312.GL19385@infodancer.org> References: <434879EB.6060704@comcast.net> <20051009032312.GL19385@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <52bcb924e4b5056323d8520f3fc3244e@cinci.rr.com> On Oct 8, 2005, at 11:23 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 09:01:15PM -0500, Mia McDavid > wrote: >> So, hubby and I finally saw Serenity. Who else has seen it? What did >> y'all think? This being very On Topic because our Main man is >> writing a >> Serenity novel. > > I was fairly wowed. It's simultaneously true to the series and a > completion of the series, while stepping the quality of the > effects and the drama of the situation up several notches to > movie quality. Thoroughly impressed. The only disappointment is that... well, it's not the series. I'm very happy to have Firefly/Serenity living on in some form... but there'll never be the room for the sort of depth you'd have in seven seasons or so of a series. If you've got an hour to work with these characters every week, you can do quite a bit more than if you've got a grand total of maybe 6 hours spread over three movies. N. ----- "One moment, please. Whom did you wish to see?" Degarmo spun on his heel and looked at me wonderingly. "Did he say 'whom'?" "Yeah, but don't hit him," I said. "There is such a word." Degarmo licked his lips. "I knew there was," he said. "I often wondered where they kept it." -- Raymond Chandler, _The Lady in the Lake_ From mia_mcdavid Sun Oct 9 07:19:36 2005 From: mia_mcdavid (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun Oct 9 07:19:36 2005 Subject: Serenity In-Reply-To: <190.49f2f359.307a0711@aol.com> References: <190.49f2f359.307a0711@aol.com> Message-ID: <4348FBFA.2080201@comcast.net> MycroftCA at aol.com wrote: > Just came home from seeing it the third time; my wife's fourth. Loved > it, can you tell. I just wish that Universal would green-light the > next film. Well, see, you're doing the right thing. The more tickets are sold, the more likely we are to get Part II. Me, I'm thinking of buying pairs and passing them out to total strangers . . . Cheers! Mia From FRIEDA2133 Sun Oct 9 10:06:59 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 9 10:06:59 2005 Subject: Serenity Message-ID: <143.4ee8dc01.307a8c06@aol.com> mia_mcdavid at comcast.net wrote on 10/9/2005 8:20:02 AM: >Well, see, you're doing the right thing. The more tickets are sold, the >more likely we are to get Part II. Me, I'm thinking of buying pairs and >passing them out to total strangers . . . Hi, Or a TV show back. Or a Firefly book published by Steven Brust. Serenity--I have seen it three times so far. I took my sister and brother-in-law yesterday. They had never seen the TV show Firefly. They loved the movie. Last Monday, I talked to all the science fiction/fantasy liking people I talk to at work, and none of them had seen it. It was "Oh yeah, I want to see it." I hope they went this weekend. I hope it doesn't disappear before they get to the theater. At http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/index.html?fuseaction=home.main at the Universal Official Serenity Fan Site, they have a "click here to get a shiny new flyer to help promote Serenity. P... [ends Oct 30, 2005]" that I printed up two to post at work. It says "Two thumbs up!" Ebert & Roeper" "SERENITY frequently plays like the best sequel to the Raiders of the Lost Ark that Steven Spielberg never made." Ken Tucker, NEW YORK MAGAZINE "A highly entertaining blend of genre-blending fun. A strongly acted, well- written story fortified by riveting action sequences--a rarity these days among studio releases--SERENITY should delight Whedon novices as much as the already converted." Kevin Crust, LOS ANGELES TIMES Bye. Linda G. From howard Sun Oct 9 10:38:33 2005 From: howard (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun Oct 9 10:38:33 2005 Subject: Firefly research In-Reply-To: <143.4ee8dc01.307a8c06@aol.com> References: <143.4ee8dc01.307a8c06@aol.com> Message-ID: <43493970.4030204@brazee.net> Steve; What research do you do when writing a novel in someone else's universe? I don't know if there are DvDs available with all of the TV shows, nor if there are other novels written in this universe. But in general, how do you make sure you don't have a character do something that doesn't make sense because of what he did in episode 23 scene 2? From mia_mcdavid Sun Oct 9 14:59:19 2005 From: mia_mcdavid (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun Oct 9 14:59:19 2005 Subject: Firefly research In-Reply-To: <43493970.4030204@brazee.net> References: <143.4ee8dc01.307a8c06@aol.com> <43493970.4030204@brazee.net> Message-ID: <434967A8.5090306@comcast.net> I'm not Steve, but for purposes of general context, I can report that Firefly consists only of 13 episodes and three comic books, at this juncture, so it's not an awfully big canon to get around. What *I* want to know, is has Steve talked to Joss? Mia Howard Brazee wrote: > Steve; > > What research do you do when writing a novel in someone else's > universe? I don't know if there are DvDs available with all of the TV > shows, nor if there are other novels written in this universe. But in > general, how do you make sure you don't have a character do something > that doesn't make sense because of what he did in episode 23 scene 2? > > > > From skzb Sun Oct 9 19:49:27 2005 From: skzb (Steven Brust) Date: Sun Oct 9 19:49:27 2005 Subject: Firefly research In-Reply-To: <434967A8.5090306@comcast.net> References: <143.4ee8dc01.307a8c06@aol.com> <43493970.4030204@brazee.net> <434967A8.5090306@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4349BA8D.50202@dreamcafe.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > What *I* want to know, is has Steve talked to Joss? > Why, yes, in fact I did. I said, "Would you mind signing this for my daughter, Aliera?" He said, "Certainly," and then he did. Aliera, who adores Buffy and All Things Josh, was pleased. To answer the question you may really be asking, to the best of my knowledge and belief, if someone were to mention my name to him, he'd say something to the effect of, "Who?" From mia_mcdavid Sun Oct 9 21:13:56 2005 From: mia_mcdavid (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun Oct 9 21:13:56 2005 Subject: Firefly research In-Reply-To: <4349BA8D.50202@dreamcafe.com> References: <143.4ee8dc01.307a8c06@aol.com> <43493970.4030204@brazee.net> <434967A8.5090306@comcast.net> <4349BA8D.50202@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <4349BF79.4070901@comcast.net> Steven Brust wrote: > > Why, yes, in fact I did. I said, "Would you mind signing this for my > daughter, Aliera?" He said, "Certainly," and then he did. Aliera, > who adores Buffy and All Things Josh, was pleased. > > To answer the question you may really be asking, to the best of my > knowledge and belief, if someone were to mention my name to him, he'd > say something to the effect of, "Who?" Oh. Drat. I noticed in the funny papers that Pocket Books will be publishing Serenity material, in case you didn't know... Mia From FRIEDA2133 Sun Oct 9 22:26:22 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 (FRIEDA2133@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 9 22:26:22 2005 Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <215.b01c4df.307b3952@aol.com> Today's magic lesson is from the sorcerer, witch and Dragonlord Morrolan on the dangers of teleporting using (Orb after the Interregnum) sorcery: "he, with great care, not wishing to embed himself into a solid piece of rock, nor to scatter himself to the six winds, bethought himself of an image of the door leading into Dzur Mountain that he had first seen, closing his eyes until he was convinced he could see with all the clarity that he would have if he had been standing in front of it; then, drawing exactly enough energy, he executed the teleport, becoming, in effect, non-existent for some few seconds while he was in two places at once, and then, casting loose of his now tenuous grip on his position at Castle Black, permitted himself, not without a certain disorienting shift, to exist in the place he had seen with his mind's eye; he emerged, therefore, outside of a particular door into Dzur Mountain. The teleport was complete. Sethra Lavode, paperback, Chapter the Eighty-Fourth, page 192-193. From bowofanariel Mon Oct 10 02:04:52 2005 From: bowofanariel (Carolyn P.) Date: Mon Oct 10 02:04:52 2005 Subject: Serenity In-Reply-To: <20051009170007.1745FE93FA@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20051010070420.26596.qmail@web31304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Man I have been trying to catch up on the list for an eternity hello i am a Lurker on the Threshold or some such silly thing i dont post much because i usually dont have much to say but I have seen Serenity twice now since it opened, and will go a third time this week. I cannot tell you how much I squee-ed when Mr Brust told me he had been a Firefly fan for some time, and I gasped and squee-ed some more when I heard he was writing a Firefly novel. This is a really cheeseball thing to say but for me watching Serenity was like coming home after a long hard trip away. It is a Joy to watch and listen to. did anyone else notice the soundtrack is absolutely incredible awesome? ok i will save the rest of my ravings for a Firefly board. thanks for listening Goodbye and Hello From matthew Mon Oct 10 09:39:19 2005 From: matthew (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon Oct 10 09:39:19 2005 Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <215.b01c4df.307b3952@aol.com> References: <215.b01c4df.307b3952@aol.com> Message-ID: <20051010143851.GB24159@infodancer.org> On Sun, Oct 09, 2005 at 11:26:10PM -0400, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > "he, with great care, not wishing to embed himself into a solid > piece of rock, nor to scatter himself to the six winds, bethought > himself of an image of the door leading into Dzur Mountain that he > had first seen, closing his eyes until he was convinced he could > see with all the clarity that he would have if he had been standing > in front of it; then, drawing exactly enough energy, he executed > the teleport, becoming, in effect, non-existent for some few > seconds while he was in two places at once, and then, casting loose > of his now tenuous grip on his position at Castle Black, permitted > himself, not without a certain disorienting shift, to exist in the > place he had seen with his mind's eye; he emerged, therefore, > outside of a particular door into Dzur Mountain. The teleport was > complete. > > Sethra Lavode, paperback, Chapter the Eighty-Fourth, page 192-193. Hmm. Does this mean that all Dragaereans capable of teleporting via sorcery are actually gods? Or perhaps demons, if they can be controlled. Or is Paarfi simply not a metaphysicist? From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 11:46:15 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:46:15 -0600 Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <20051010143851.GB24159@infodancer.org> References: <215.b01c4df.307b3952@aol.com> <20051010143851.GB24159@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510101146o26ba6b63s5ba92031286960ca@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Hmm. Does this mean that all Dragaereans capable of teleporting > via sorcery are actually gods? Or perhaps demons, if they can be > controlled. Or is Paarfi simply not a metaphysicist? > I'm kind of skeptical, actually, of the idea that it is merely the *being* in two places at once that defines godhood. As you point out, location is kind of a metaphysical idea. Verra's funny effect on people (I wish Aliera had explained that to Vlad) suggests to me that she is capable of acting independently on a number of planes at once, although when she's interacting with several people in the same location they seem to get superimposed, in a way. In other words, I suspect that being a god requires you to be able to e.g. have tea at Castle Black while simultaneously dancing with Serioli across the Kanefthali mountains, as opposed to simply having tea in a location which is simultaneously in Castle Black and Kanefthali. Note that Sethra can teleport, and denies knowing how to be a god. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 11:47:41 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:47:41 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur Message-ID: On a recent Google for Brust-related stuff, I found several hits for some art which I had not yet seen before, and I thought I'd see if perhaps anyone on the list was interested. Despite the site name "Deviant Art" has nothing particularly deviant (unless you go looking for it, perhaps). These images are completely work-safe. They are also reduced in size; you can easily zoom them larger if you feel so inclined. These two links are for art for some of the Turkish covers SKZB's books. The artist, Kerim Beyit, appears to have made these available on multiple graphic-art websites; or perhaps the sites are somehow interconnected (if you search on "Beyit Brust", you will find multiple hits for these two pieces). Anyway: Jhereg (cover for /Dragon/): http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/16500162/ Rocza & Loiosh (cover for /Issola/): http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/17036702/ While I think the above are both very well executed, I just fail to understand the jhereg-wings having all of those holes in the second one. I mean, why? The following are all by someone called "Heidhra": Kragar: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20797836/ Morrolan: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20797693/ Vlad & Loiosh: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20797578/ In the last one, if that loop of what looks like string is supposed to be Spellbreaker, I nearly think he has it on the wrong hand. To my personal taste, all of the above are far too effeminate; even Vlad looks like a girl with a mustache, to my eyes. But I understand that some peoples' taste runs that way, so, oh well. And they are certainly well done as pieces of line-art. This sketch of Loiosh as a baby jhereg will no doubt cause some people to go awwww.... http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/16134319/ And lastly, a recoloured scan of the cover of /Phoenix/: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/637825/ From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 12:08:05 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:08:05 -0600 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Rocza & Loiosh (cover for /Issola/): > > http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/17036702/ > > > While I think the above are both very well executed, I just fail to > understand the jhereg-wings having all of those holes in the second > one. I mean, why? > Are they holes or natural coloring? I agree that this one is well-executed and looks nice; perversely, I particularly like that it makes the jhereg look like fairly disgusting scavengers in their scrawniness, snakelike bodies, lumpy heads.... The natural setting makes them look better, but in a city they'd just look gross. Which probably explains how humans react to them. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051010/7b9d3021/attachment.html From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 12:21:49 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:21:49 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 10/10/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Rocza & Loiosh (cover for /Issola/): > > > > http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/17036702/ > > > > > > While I think the above are both very well executed, I just fail to > > understand the jhereg-wings having all of those holes in the second > > one. I mean, why? > > > > Are they holes or natural coloring? You may need to change the contrast and/or brightness on your monitor. When the image is zoomed large, it is clear to me from the details that can been seen through them that they are indeed holes rather than spots. From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Oct 10 12:22:31 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:22:31 -0500 Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510101146o26ba6b63s5ba92031286960ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051010192219.VVEN5336.centrmmtao01.cox.net@Asminath> He cannot ACT in 2 places at once, or continue to exist outside of the teleport and -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Maximilian Wilson Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:46 PM To: Matthew Hunter; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture,and art. On 10/10/05, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Hmm. Does this mean that all Dragaereans capable of teleporting > via sorcery are actually gods? Or perhaps demons, if they can be > controlled. Or is Paarfi simply not a metaphysicist? > I'm kind of skeptical, actually, of the idea that it is merely the *being* in two places at once that defines godhood. As you point out, location is kind of a metaphysical idea. Verra's funny effect on people (I wish Aliera had explained that to Vlad) suggests to me that she is capable of acting independently on a number of planes at once, although when she's interacting with several people in the same location they seem to get superimposed, in a way. In other words, I suspect that being a god requires you to be able to e.g. have tea at Castle Black while simultaneously dancing with Serioli across the Kanefthali mountains, as opposed to simply having tea in a location which is simultaneously in Castle Black and Kanefthali. Note that Sethra can teleport, and denies knowing how to be a god. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Oct 10 12:35:06 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: Welcome back - long time no fruitful argument. I liked your name better in the original German, to misquote Molly Ivins, but no matter. From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Oct 10 15:45:35 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:45:35 -0500 Subject: cover art Message-ID: <20051010224512.QDVN24602.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> I went to some bookstores today to replace some of the items that got destroyed when my house flooded last spring. Among them were the early Black Company books by Cook. I was struck by how damned bad the cover art was on those early books (white rose, dreams of steel etc etc) especially compared to the later books of the glittering stone end of the series. What is the cover work ya'all gave seen that you like the most? What cover work have you seen that makes you cringe? That earlier stuff on Cook's is like a bad 15 year old DnD fanatic's artwork. andy From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Oct 10 16:17:01 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:17:01 -0400 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:08:05 MDT." <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510102317.j9ANH3x8006668@vice-grips.mit.edu> Don't jhereg have 4 limbs, not six? These sketches give them legs, "hands", and wings, while I think that they actually only have legs and wings, which they sometimes use in an approximation of hands. > On 10/10/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > Rocza & Loiosh (cover for /Issola/): > > > > http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/17036702/ > > > > > > While I think the above are both very well executed, I just fail to > > understand the jhereg-wings having all of those holes in the second > > one. I mean, why? > > > > Are they holes or natural coloring? I agree that this one is well-executed > and looks nice; perversely, I particularly like that it makes the jhereg > look like fairly disgusting scavengers in their scrawniness, snakelike > bodies, lumpy heads.... The natural setting makes them look better, but in = > a > city they'd just look gross. Which probably explains how humans react to > them. > > Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Oct 10 17:40:04 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:40:04 -0400 Subject: deviant art Message-ID: <200510110040.j9B0e522007311@vice-grips.mit.edu> another pic on that site to be noted: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/13320543/ From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 00:59:22 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:59:22 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/10/05, Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Welcome back - long time no fruitful argument. I liked your name better > in the original German, to misquote Molly Ivins, but no matter. I have no idea to whom you have the honor to refer, I nearly think. Can you not see from these black hornrim glasses (including false eyebrows); this large plastic nose; this thick black mustache, that I am a completely and utterly new and totally different person from anyone else having some vaguely similar name, in whatever language? But I promise not to try and sell you any shares in a mustard mine. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 01:12:09 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 01:12:09 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: <200510102317.j9ANH3x8006668@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <200510102317.j9ANH3x8006668@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/05, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > Don't jhereg have 4 limbs, not six? These sketches give them legs, > "hands", and wings, while I think that they actually only have legs > and wings, which they sometimes use in an approximation of hands. > You are entirely correct regarding the notional anatomy of jhereg, but you must keep in mind that artists, professional and otherwise, rarely if ever consult with the writer before creating their art. Indeed, there is only one counter-example that I can think of who has created Dragaeran art to SKZBs specifications; as I hope you recall. Although as long as I'm posting about art, here's a tolerably good portrait of that Easterner, Vlad Taltos: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/15406698/ Much better than the previous one I sent out. Although Godslayer is a bit on the short side, or so it seems to me. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 11 14:16:17 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:16:17 -0400 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur Message-ID: <0C644E34.7225E145.00048EA6@aol.com> Joy Jennifer Nicholson writes: > Don't jhereg have 4 limbs, not six? That's what some guy named Steve keeps saying, but what does he know? :) The SFBC omnibus _Dragon & Issola_ shows a 4-limbed jhereg, but with weird markings. And isn't Loiosh supposed to be grey? I'm trying to find a cover scan online, but I keep getting Dragon & Issola (Star Wars) by J. Gregory Keyes instead. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Tue Oct 11 14:49:10 2005 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:49:10 -0400 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <200510102317.j9ANH3x8006668@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2005, at 4:12 AM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 10/10/05, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >> >> >> Don't jhereg have 4 limbs, not six? These sketches give them legs, >> "hands", and wings, while I think that they actually only have legs >> and wings, which they sometimes use in an approximation of hands. >> > > You are entirely correct regarding the notional anatomy of jhereg, but > you must keep in mind that artists, professional and otherwise, rarely > if ever consult with the writer before creating their art. > > Indeed, there is only one counter-example that I can think of who has > created Dragaeran art to SKZBs specifications; as I hope you recall. Say, would you mind posting that one? A friend of mine (not on the list) hasn't seen it, and I'd like to show him. N. "When Johnny Cash comes into play, all *weak-ass music*must immediately be discarded. All *pretenders* are permanently tapped. Any player who posesses *Toby Keith* must set themselves on fire." --Cosmic_Music, fark.com From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:32:27 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:32:27 +0000 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <20051010224512.QDVN24602.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: "andy" To: Subject: cover art Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:45:35 -0500 I went to some bookstores today to replace some of the items that got destroyed when my house flooded last spring. Among them were the early Black Company books by Cook. I was struck by how damned bad the cover art was on those early books (white rose, dreams of steel etc etc) especially compared to the later books of the glittering stone end of the series. What is the cover work ya'all gave seen that you like the most? What cover work have you seen that makes you cringe? That earlier stuff on Cook's is like a bad 15 year old DnD fanatic's artwork. andy Pretty much anything from Baen Books. . . . Jeff From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Tue Oct 11 18:10:10 2005 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:10:10 -0400 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <20051010224512.QDVN24602.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> References: <20051010224512.QDVN24602.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: <7d8201604ac72e8819835c0dc1400d58@cinci.rr.com> On Oct 10, 2005, at 6:45 PM, andy wrote: > I went to some bookstores today to replace some of the items that got > destroyed when my house flooded last spring. Among them were the early > Black Company books by Cook. I was struck by how damned bad the > cover art > was on those early books (white rose, dreams of steel etc etc) > especially > compared to the later books of the glittering stone end of the series. > What is the cover work ya'all gave seen that you like the most? What > cover > work have you seen that makes you cringe? That earlier stuff on > Cook's is > like a bad 15 year old DnD fanatic's artwork. > Honestly? I've never been a fan of the cover art from TPG and FHYA. Also, there's at least Moonheart (I think) from Charles de Lint, between the title and the cover art, that looks like a really hokey new age fluffy bunny crystals and pink light sort of book. There's just what comes to mind right now... mostly books with bad cover art don't make it into my collection, 'cause when I walk into the store without any clue what I'll be picking up... well, I hate to say it, but cover art has a lot to do with what gets picked up and what doesn't. It's horrible, I know, and I wish I had some better way of figuring out good stuff to read, but... :P N. "You were Marlon Brando, I was Steve McQueen. You were K.Y. Jelly, I was Vaseline. You were the father of modern medicine, I was Mr. Clean. You where the whore and the beast of Babylon, I was Rin Tin Tin." --Leonard Cohen, "Is This What You Wanted" From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Oct 11 20:00:30 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 05:00:30 +0200 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <7d8201604ac72e8819835c0dc1400d58@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: Terry Pratchett has usually very good covers, both by Josh Kirby and Paul Kidby. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time books on the other hand, the covers by Darrell Sweet, are really bad. Both cheesy AND bad from a technical/artistic point of view. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 11 20:24:37 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:24:37 EDT Subject: Today's magic lesson for an article on Dragaeran life, culture, and art. Message-ID: <1ac.4189faee.307ddbf5@aol.com> Today's magic lesson is from the sorceress and Dzurlord Ibronka on a sorcerous field. "Ibronka stopped snoring, opened her eyes, and said, 'A sorcerous field refers to an area wherein the set effects of a sorcerous spell are continuous. Examples include teleport protections and alarm wards. The two advantages of a sorcerous field over a conventionally cast spell are that it may continue without monitoring for some length of time, and that additional energy may be put into the spell, increasing its effectiveness beyond what the sorcerer is normally capable of controlling. The usual way of determining if a sorcerous field is or has recently been present is the Norbrook Threepass Test.' After completing this discourse, Ibronka immediately closed her eyes and began snoring again." Sethra Lavode, paperback, Chapter the Ninetieth, page 248. From shawnb at stanford.edu Tue Oct 11 21:40:27 2005 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:40:27 -0700 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051012044047.D378FE93EF@gw.dd-b.net> Michael Whelan's cover of C.S. Friedman's "Black Sun Rising" -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Martin Wohlert Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 8:01 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: cover art Terry Pratchett has usually very good covers, both by Josh Kirby and Paul Kidby. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time books on the other hand, the covers by Darrell Sweet, are really bad. Both cheesy AND bad from a technical/artistic point of view. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Oct 12 04:23:14 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:23:14 +0200 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <20051012044047.D378FE93EF@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: >From: "Shawn Burns" >To: >Subject: RE: cover art >Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:40:27 -0700 > >Michael Whelan's cover of C.S. Friedman's "Black Sun Rising" > What about it? Is it good or bad? ;) From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Wed Oct 12 05:23:39 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:23:39 -0400 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:23:14 -0400, Martin Wohlert wrote: >> From: "Shawn Burns" >> To: >> Subject: RE: cover art >> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:40:27 -0700 >> >> Michael Whelan's cover of C.S. Friedman's "Black Sun Rising" >> > What about it? Is it good or bad? ;) It's pretty good, in the opinion of this layman. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From shawnb at stanford.edu Wed Oct 12 08:58:39 2005 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:58:39 -0700 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510121559.j9CFwfn2027746@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Martin Wohlert Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 4:23 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: cover art >From: "Shawn Burns" >To: >Subject: RE: cover art >Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:40:27 -0700 > >Michael Whelan's cover of C.S. Friedman's "Black Sun Rising" > >What about it? Is it good or bad? ;) Actually, you were all supposed to wonder if I'd been kidnapped in mid-sentence (somehow retaining the strength and presence of mind to click "Send" before my captors threw me into the trunk of their car). Alas, none of you care. (And I think Michael Whelan's cover of C.S. Friedman's "Black Sun Rising" is the Coolest cover I've ever seen) Shawn From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Oct 12 09:54:48 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:54:48 -0400 Subject: cover art Message-ID: <330DD0EA.1813998C.00048EA6@aol.com> Noah Stacy writes: > There's just what comes to mind right now... mostly books with bad > cover art don't make it into my collection, I'm skilled at ignoring bad art, which is good since there is very little that I like. For serious art, the only good stuff I can think of are the Dragaeran covers by Stephen Hickman and Sam Rakeland. For non-serious artists, I really like Phil Foglio, Paul Kidby, Jeff Smith and Brett Helquist. > 'cause when I walk into the store without any clue what I'll be > picking up... well, I hate to say it, but cover art has a lot to > do with what gets picked up and what doesn't. It's horrible, I > know, and I wish I had some better way of figuring out good stuff > to read, but... :P If your ISP has a decent newsserver, you might want to ask for recs over on rec.arts.sf.written . When asking, mention some examples of books you really liked and books you really hated, so we can at least try to fit your tastes. You can also read other people's booklogs to see what they liked. Mine is linked in my .sig, and here's some others: http://speculativefiction.org/weblog/index.jsp http://www.scwu.com/bookreviews/ http://www.matthilliard.com/reviews/index.html http://oldrottenhat.typepad.com/ http://www.klio.org/weblog/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ http://www.steelypips.org/library/ http://cloggie.org/books/ http://www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/ http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/ And if you want to see what's being read outside of SF/F, try this: http://www.livejournal.com/community/50bookchallenge/ -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From casey at the-bat.net Wed Oct 12 10:00:35 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:00:35 -0400 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <200510121559.j9CFwfn2027746@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <031301c5cf4e$77311030$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Shawn Burns writ: > Actually, you were all supposed to wonder if I'd been > kidnapped in mid-sentence (somehow retaining the > strength and presence of mind to click "Send" before > my captors threw me into the trunk of their car). > > Alas, none of you care. > > (And I think Michael Whelan's cover of C.S. Friedman's > "Black Sun Rising" is the Coolest cover I've ever seen) Ah, but since MW is an undisputed master of the art form, one need not say much more than you had. :) A book with MW art is _much_ more likely to attract my attention than almost any other artist. On the flip side there are one or two artists whose work I have learned says "Warning: here there be pulpy trash." I'll not name names to avoid offense. It seems to me mostly a matter of marketing. I've heard that MW has some very stringent requirements before he accepts a commission. If you want him to do the art for your book, you comply. With the possible exception of CFSBG, I'd say Steve has always had good fortune when it comes to cover art. C. From ike at manor.org Wed Oct 12 10:37:33 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <031301c5cf4e$77311030$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <031301c5cf4e$77311030$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Casey Rousseau wrote: > With the possible exception of CFSBG, I'd say Steve has always had good > fortune when it comes to cover art. Heh...I actually got CFSBG based on its cover because it reminded me of an Iron Maiden album cover....though on reflection that's not necessarily a good thing these days :) From steve.rapaport at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 14:30:49 2005 From: steve.rapaport at gmail.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:30:49 +0200 Subject: Michael Whelan's C.S. Friedman covers Message-ID: ...are the coolest covers ever, in my opinion (and that of Celia Friedman, by the way, since she was a friend of mine when she started releasing them.) The covers for the Khaavren Romances are not nearly as cool, IMHO. The "LoCB" doesn't look anything like Morrolan, "Sethra Lavode" not only doesn't look even remotely like her description, but her clothes and weapon are entirely wrong too. (Iceflame is a dagger, not a longsword. She dresses in black, not black & white. And she's supposed to be thin.) The pictures of Khaavren himself are more interesting, but a bit too, um, Tiassalike, perhaps? The pictures of Vlad and Loiosh on the covers of the early Vlad books are very cool, but don't look like Vlad or Loiosh much. I'm rambling now, shut me up anytime. --Steve the Younger From kdvorenkamp at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 14:38:23 2005 From: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com (Kendra Vorenkamp) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:38:23 -0500 Subject: naming characters Message-ID: <38aa89f30510121438v395bcf5bm1a6a6d4593c21ea0@mail.gmail.com> So this is really stupid, but oh well ;-) There's been an Endra, Tazendra, and even a Rendra....when will there be a Kendra? Heehee. Cheers, Kendra V. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 12 15:29:59 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:29:59 -0700 Subject: cover art In-Reply-To: <200510121559.j9CFwfn2027746@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: <9abf01c5cf7c$7b0e0d60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Actually, you were all supposed to wonder if I'd been kidnapped in >mid-sentence (somehow retaining the strength and presence of mind to click >"Send" before my captors threw me into the trunk of their car). ARTHUR: Look, if he was dying, he wouldn't bother to carve 'aaaaaggh'. He'd just say it! MAYNARD: Well, that's what's carved in the rock! Sounds like a Paarfi moment to me... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 19:19:09 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:19:09 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <200510102317.j9ANH3x8006668@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/05, Noah Stacy wrote: > > On Oct 11, 2005, at 4:12 AM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 10/10/05, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > >> > >> > >> Don't jhereg have 4 limbs, not six? These sketches give them legs, > >> "hands", and wings, while I think that they actually only have legs > >> and wings, which they sometimes use in an approximation of hands. > >> > > > > You are entirely correct regarding the notional anatomy of jhereg, but > > you must keep in mind that artists, professional and otherwise, rarely > > if ever consult with the writer before creating their art. > > > > Indeed, there is only one counter-example that I can think of who has > > created Dragaeran art to SKZBs specifications; as I hope you recall. > > Say, would you mind posting that one? A friend of mine (not on the > list) hasn't seen it, and I'd like to show him. > [copy and paste is our friend] The artist who has done the most to portray the animals of Brust's Dragaeran Cycle is Kathy Grantham (she who was once named Kathy Marschall - you may notice a certain similarity between that name and another name from one of the books; this is not a coincidence) (and if you have access to /Brokedown Palace/ or the original Ace edition of /Yendi/, check the signatures on the maps in each of those). Here is what she has done: Phoenix: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/phoenixcolor96.jpg.html Dzur Mountain (including an actual dzur): http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/dzur96.jpg.html Tiassa: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/tiassa.jpg.html Orca: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/orca.jpg.html Issola: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/issola.jpg.html Jhereg: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/jhereg.jpg.html Note that the jhereg doesn't look much like the one on the bookcovers, but is reportedly closer to SKZB's actual mental image. Note also that the orca only superficially resembles an Earth orca, which I believe is a strong indication that they are completely different native animals; see also the comments above the image. Of course, now Steve may pipe up and say, "No, they're *evolved* (or engineered by the Jenoine) from Earth orca; it has been a long time for that species, after all". So what do I know? By the way, Steve, you once mentioned in an interview having some Dragaeran art by Kathy over your desk, or something like that - any chance we could get a glimpse of it? A thumbnail, even? From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 19:32:52 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:32:52 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0510101208t6ecea2cake074fe4fba8d2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <200510102317.j9ANH3x8006668@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: By the way, apropos of art, while doing that search, I also found a page with some lizards & snakes named after Dragaeran characters, which I thought was amusing. http://www.purpledragon.org/zoo.htm Looking carefully at the images of Bearded Lizards and iguanas on that page, I think I have found the models that Steve Hickman combined into his image of a jhereg in the cover art of /Dragon/: http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html That is, iguanas have the dorsal spike-like things, and the other lizards have the beard, and it looks like both of those characteristics went into the image. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Oct 13 05:55:42 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:55:42 +0000 Subject: Allam Message-ID: Steve: Please forgive the egregious lack of all accent marks. List: Please forgive the dot-jot style of this email, I didn't have much time when I typed it up, nor do I have much time now :) Here we go: Allam as great weapon. Possibility: Verra bound Fenarr into a morganti (the one that Fenarr himself wields in TPG, or just a weapon, and made it semi-awaken as a great weapon. "They never found his body, but they found Allam" or something like that The great weapon (Fenarr) decides not to take Miklos' soul because of two reasons: 1) He has Bolk as his horse. 2) His agenda is his own, which is to say, Bolk is serving him (and he is serving Bolk), and therefore he is a true Fenarian. Fenarr's Agenda was to create and maintain an Eastern Kingdom free from Eastern attacks, and maybe influence. That would make Verra his enemy, and her servants enemies of him as well. So Verra has (or rather had) a connection to a good number of the great weapons: Blackwand, which is now in the hands of her lover, Iceflame which is in the hands of someone who will serve the Empire, if not Verra, which seems good enough. Pathfinder, in the hands of her own Daughter. Godslayer itself, by Verra's tits, in the hand of Vlad, probably the most volatile of all the wielders, but one who has a remarkable sense of duty--and apparently quite the High Destiny. And now Allam, no longer connected to her, but used to be for over 1000 years. If this is true, then perhaps she is the one inciting (if anyone is) Sethra The Younger to invade the East, possibly to get the weapon back. But even so, it seems bound to the Kings of Fenario, so maybe it's a non-issue as Great Weapons go. But then again, maybe it's just biding its time there. Again, though, is Kieron's Greatsword a Great Weapon? Jon And Norska, in case anyone didn't know, are rabbits, or rabbit-like creatures. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Oct 13 08:59:40 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:59:40 -0400 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur Message-ID: <0D59666C.026D0DE6.00048EA6@aol.com> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >The SFBC omnibus _Dragon & Issola_ shows a 4-limbed jhereg, but with >weird markings. And isn't Loiosh supposed to be grey? > >I'm trying to find a cover scan online, but I keep getting >Dragon & Issola (Star Wars) by J. Gregory Keyes instead. Okay, found the link: http://www.donatoart.com/ftsy/phoenix.jpg -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Thu Oct 13 09:15:18 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:15:18 -0700 Subject: Allam Message-ID: <20051013161518.11247.qmail@server261.com> > Allam as great weapon. That's a fascinating idea, and I like the possibility. Would you mind if I added it to the wiki? Is Allam a Morganti weapon, though, and if not how would that affect its Greatness? Maybe souls *can* be bound to anything by a skilled necromancer, but it has to be a Morganti before it's properly a Great Weapon. Hmm. > Again, though, is Kieron's Greatsword a Great Weapon? Is it even Morganti? I don't remember its ever being described as such. And if not, that again raises the possibility of Morganti weapons and soul-bound weapons not overlapping completely, but the overlap being what defines "Great Weapon". From books at bofh.com Thu Oct 13 09:25:40 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:25:40 -0700 Subject: Allam In-Reply-To: <20051013161518.11247.qmail@server261.com> References: <20051013161518.11247.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: <20051013162540.GA29136@bofh.com> > > Again, though, is Kieron's Greatsword a Great Weapon? I don't think it is. Remember, Vlad calls in Morrolan in order to expose Pathfinder, and he's pretty sure he knows what has to happen. Otherwise, he could have just let Aliera and StY cause it to happen. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us Bumper Sticker: The Liver is Evil, and must be punished. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:35:17 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:35:17 +0000 Subject: Allam, and Communism Message-ID: The only thing I don't like about Allam as a Great Weapon is that it seems to be to be a little too much trying to label and categorize the magic on Dragaera. We know for a fact that there are at least two major forms of magic, and probably a third and fourth if Serioli and Jenoine are 1) both forms of magic and 2) not the same type of magic. Of course that gets into the definition of magic and all that, and that's really beside the point. You could technically call technology a form of magic, too. But I *do* like the rest of the theory: Verra taking an existing morganti weapon tied to a great destiny and either making or revealing its Great Weapon status, thus binding another Great Weapon into her service, as well as putting the East under her control to some degree. I like that Bolk was willing to suffer being in the presence of Verra as Fenarr's Demon Goddess when he should have been enough--though the combination of their two powers was ultimately more effective for a while, it DID cause one to require being dominant over the other. I think Bolk is natural to Dragaera, and Verra an interloper, which makes sense, given that Chaos itself is natural to the world, but not in the quantity (or probably the form) that shows up due to Jenoine meddling. So I think that, if Allam were a Great Weapon, it wasn't meant to be, or perhaps, it was made so to provide the means by which Verra could temporarily overpower Bolcseseg. Which would make _Brokedown Palace_ a tale of rebellion instead of growth>decay, which is very much his style :) On a side note, I thought it a WONDERFUL touch that the Dragon defeats both the Athyra and then the Dzur in order. Until I realized that the order goes Dragon--> Lyorn --> Tiassa. Ah well, it would have been a nice touch :P By the way, under the subject line of" Communism" and not "Re: Allam", I think that Communism is ultimately a stagnant system--the reason that communist countries turn oppressive is because Marx didn't include diversity of thought into his model, and that was just a product of his times. Our focus on Utopian societies now makes it obvious to us that the only Utopia that can exist that will not eventually (if not immediately) turn into a Dystopian hell, is to include on a foundational level the idea of conflict of opinion. One man's gold is another man's garbage. Communism could become slightly more viable if the thinkers started to incorporate this idea into their thinking--but would communism still be communism at that point? Still it seems stupid to me, to try to base a system of government on one man's ideas and no other's. One man is not smart enough to rule a people, living or dead. (the living or dead applies both to the ruler AND the people being ruled). He may have had a great inspiration, but it takes revision to make any system work, and that is precisely what communists for whatever reason choose to resist, citing that decadence or something is the ultimate product of change. I think, however, that decadence is a product of human nature, and should not be seen as a failure or short-coming in any political (or anything else "ical") system. From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 13 16:37:00 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:37:00 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> J C wrote: >The only thing I don't like about Allam as a Great Weapon is that it seems >to be to be a little too much trying to label and categorize the magic on >Dragaera. We know for a fact that there are at least two major forms of >magic, and probably a third and fourth if Serioli and Jenoine are 1) both >forms of magic and 2) not the same type of magic. > > What is the defining characteristic that makes a weapon Great? What happens when that same characteristic is applied to a non-weapon? From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Thu Oct 13 17:19:17 2005 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:19:17 -0400 Subject: Communism and the Jenoine Message-ID: The recent mention of communism reminded me of a thought that crossed my mind when reading Issola not too long ago: Verra mentions, rather casually and briefly, that part of the Jenoine plans include a group on Dragaera who are supposed to cause a distraction at a crucial time, as I recall. Could it be that Kelly/Cawti's group are basically tools of the Jenoine? It was a thought that I had... apologies if it's been mentioned before. N. ----- "One moment, please. Whom did you wish to see?" Degarmo spun on his heel and looked at me wonderingly. "Did he say 'whom'?" "Yeah, but don't hit him," I said. "There is such a word." Degarmo licked his lips. "I knew there was," he said. "I often wondered where they kept it." -- Raymond Chandler, _The Lady in the Lake_ From bonham15 at cox.net Thu Oct 13 21:03:07 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:03:07 -0500 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:37 PM Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Allam, and Communism J C wrote: >The only thing I don't like about Allam as a Great Weapon is that it seems >to be to be a little too much trying to label and categorize the magic on >Dragaera. We know for a fact that there are at least two major forms of >magic, and probably a third and fourth if Serioli and Jenoine are 1) both >forms of magic and 2) not the same type of magic. > > -What is the defining characteristic that makes a weapon Great? What -happens when that same characteristic is applied to a non-weapon? Pardon me if I'm wrong, but a Great Weapon is exclusively the creation of the serioli (sp), is it not? Kieron's greatsword, in as much as we know anything of it, functions as a large piece of stabbity-hack metal, a potent symbol of conquest, and potentially a talisman to draw the soul of Kieron from the paths....which, by vote of irony, I hope goes into an easterner who recovers it from StY's smoking corpse. So, aside from all else, was Allam made by our serioli friends? andy From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 01:49:13 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:49:13 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: I thought one of the previous posters said Allam was morganti-all Morganti weapons are Serioli. And I'd really, really like to see StY's smoking corpse someday soon. On 10/14/05, andy wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto: > dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] > On Behalf Of Howard Brazee > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:37 PM > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Allam, and Communism > > J C wrote: > > >The only thing I don't like about Allam as a Great Weapon is that it > seems > >to be to be a little too much trying to label and categorize the magic on > > >Dragaera. We know for a fact that there are at least two major forms of > >magic, and probably a third and fourth if Serioli and Jenoine are 1) both > >forms of magic and 2) not the same type of magic. > > > > > -What is the defining characteristic that makes a weapon Great? What > -happens when that same characteristic is applied to a non-weapon? > > Pardon me if I'm wrong, but a Great Weapon is exclusively the creation of > the serioli (sp), is it not? Kieron's greatsword, in as much as we know > anything of it, functions as a large piece of stabbity-hack metal, a > potent > symbol of conquest, and potentially a talisman to draw the soul of Kieron > from the paths....which, by vote of irony, I hope goes into an easterner > who > recovers it from StY's smoking corpse. > > So, aside from all else, was Allam made by our serioli friends? > > andy > > From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 01:49:56 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:49:56 -0400 Subject: Hmmmmm Message-ID: I wonder if Dolivar was Sethra's lover? Random speculation ahoy. From scs at di.org Fri Oct 14 06:29:17 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:29:17 -0400 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> References: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 11:03:07PM -0500, andy wrote: > Pardon me if I'm wrong, but a Great Weapon is exclusively the creation of > the serioli (sp), is it not? Kieron's greatsword, in as much as we know > anything of it, functions as a large piece of stabbity-hack metal, a potent > symbol of conquest, and potentially a talisman to draw the soul of Kieron > from the paths....which, by vote of irony, I hope goes into an easterner who > recovers it from StY's smoking corpse. While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made for purpose of killing the Gods. -- "Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind Cannot bear very much reality." T. S. Eliot, from Burnt Norton in "Four Quartets" From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Fri Oct 14 08:17:59 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:17:59 -0700 Subject: Hmmmmm Message-ID: <20051014151759.26630.qmail@server261.com> > From: Louis Eastman > I wonder if Dolivar was Sethra's lover? Random speculation ahoy. Well, I've always suspected as much, but then I've written fanfic. ^_^ It's certianly psychologically plausible, given what we know of the characters - and I suspect that Sethra was a lot, er, warmer in her youth. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Oct 14 08:50:51 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:50:51 -0700 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: >While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or >isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't >imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of >unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd >let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made >for purpose of killing the Gods. The Gods are surprisingly tolerant when it comes to property ownership rights. Verra knows exactly what Spellbreaker is when Vlad shows it to her. She could have simply taken it from him. For that matter, if she'd asked him to give it to her, he probably would have done so given the proper convincing. Even when Vlad finally creates Godslayer, Verra reacts with a certain amount of disgust but she doesn't strike Vlad down or otherwise try to take it from him. A better question is whether a Great Weapon would allow itself to be taken into the Paths by a dead soul. The Lords of Judgement should be able to dispose of all of the Great Weapons, yet they haven't done so, Godslayer being the sole exception. On the one hand, this is because they are subverting their original purpose by using them to protect Dragaera from the Jenoine. To the left, it may also be that they are incapable of disposing of them after all. The best they could do with Godslayer was to decompose it into its component parts and separate them. One has to wonder why they didn't send it into another dimension or at least place the knife and the chain in a vault in the Paths for safe keeping. (Then again, time does weird things around the Gods and the Serioli think in a strange "trans-temporal" frame of reference so maybe from a mortal's point of view, Godslayer has only just now been created and its destruction happens some time in the future.) Kieron's Greatsword has never been described as Morganti and Vlad has been around it many times. Every time Blackwand or Pathfinder are drawn, he reminds us how unpleasant an experience it is to be near them. (Hmmm, this may put a damper on any possible reconciliation between Vlad and Cawti...) We've never heard any such description for the Greatsword. It's primarily a symbol, with whatever power any sword gains from being wielded by a legendary historical figure and whatever magic was imbued into it at the time it was forged. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 09:00:55 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:00:55 -0700 Subject: Allam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/13/05, J C wrote: > Steve: > > Please forgive the egregious lack of all accent marks. Oh, that is easily remedied: ?llam. > > Allam as great weapon. > > Possibility: Verra bound Fenarr into a morganti (the one that Fenarr > himself wields in TPG, or just a weapon, and made it semi-awaken as a great > weapon. Please allow me the honor of disputing with you: The Morganti sword (Sword of Faerie) that (Criono)Fenarr had in The Phoenix Guards (Prologue to Brokedown Palace) was given over to Khaavren (Kav) -- in both versions of story. Furthermore, ?llam is drawn more than once in /Brokedown Palace/, and it is never described as projecting the sort of radiating field of soul-hunger that is always described when Morganti weapons (or Great Weapons) are discussed. I suppose one may ideate that it has such a field which is never described, but that seems inconsistent and unlikely. Which is not to say that Fenarr's soul was not bound to that weapon, just that it was (probably) not a Great Weapon. > "They never found his body, but they found Allam" or something like that As I recall, that was a legend. You may recall that Crionofenarr wore two swords, in TPG. One *might* have been ?llam. > The great weapon (Fenarr) decides not to take Miklos' soul because of two > reasons: > > 1) He has Bolk as his horse. Note that Mikl?s does not in fact have Bolk when L?szl? first attacks him with ?llam. > 2) His agenda is his own, which is to say, Bolk is serving him (and he is > serving Bolk), and therefore he is a true Fenarian. Fenarr's Agenda was to > create and maintain an Eastern Kingdom free from Eastern attacks, and maybe > influence. That would make Verra his enemy, and her servants enemies of him > as well. While some portion of Fenarr might have been bound to the sword, I don't think that whatever portion that was, was capable of making clear and rational decisions as you describe above. Indeed, one of the things noted about ?llam was that it had the tendency to cause the wielder to become an insane berserker, forsaking rational thought for a nearly pure destructive bloodlust. > > Again, though, is Kieron's Greatsword a Great Weapon? > Unlikely, I think. It's never described as such, and as noted, Aliera was wielding it against the "Morganti greatsword" wielded by Sethra the Younger - and the Morganti greatsword didn't go boom=>Pathfinder until Morrolan and Blackwand arrived. In addition, when Sethra Lavode is explaining the Great Weapons in /Issola/, she doesn't include Kieron's sword, nor does she describe Sethra the Younger as one of the bearers of Great Weapons, which she would be if she were. Unless maybe perhaps Sethra's real name is Zungaron, which seems very unlikely to me. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 14 09:21:34 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Again, though, is Kieron's Greatsword a Great Weapon? My understanding was that the GWs were built by the Serioli in response to being ethnically cleansed by the Dragaerans, starting with Kieron. Hence under the normal view of what a GW is, Kieron's sword can't be one. Plus of course _Dragon_ makes no sense if so. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 09:24:38 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:24:38 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> References: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510140924h4461b52bja2dd106c1faec798@mail.gmail.com> On 10/13/05, andy wrote: > Pardon me if I'm wrong, but a Great Weapon is exclusively the creation of > the serioli (sp), is it not? Kieron's greatsword, in as much as we know > anything of it, functions as a large piece of stabbity-hack metal, a potent > symbol of conquest, and potentially a talisman to draw the soul of Kieron > from the paths....which, by vote of irony, I hope goes into an easterner who > recovers it from StY's smoking corpse. Hmmm. You know, I hadn't thought that Kieron would be reincarnated--I had always assumed that he'd come out physically in order to father Deverra. But then, Steve says that Deverra was fathered in the Paths of the Dead, so maybe he doesn't need to come out at all for that and the bit about coming to get the sword is just a red herring. Or maybe Steve was kidding about Kieron being the father. It *is* sort of Wagnerian, after all... Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Fri Oct 14 09:46:51 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:46:51 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons in the Paths of the Dead, was Re: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:50:51 -0400, Scott Schultz wrote: >> While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or >> isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't >> imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of >> unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd >> let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made >> for purpose of killing the Gods. > > The Gods are surprisingly tolerant when it comes to property ownership > rights. Verra knows exactly what Spellbreaker is when Vlad shows it to > her. > She could have simply taken it from him. For that matter, if she'd asked > him > to give it to her, he probably would have done so given the proper > convincing. Even when Vlad finally creates Godslayer, Verra reacts with a > certain amount of disgust but she doesn't strike Vlad down or otherwise > try > to take it from him. I don't think that's really enough to evidence infer Verra's general attitude towards personal possessions. See the previous thread about how many GWs "just happen" to have some relation to Verra. If she is actively trying to tie GWs to herself then collecting Spellbreaker from Vlad would have been counter-productive. Not to mention possibly needlessly annoying one of her more useful supporters. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From scs at di.org Fri Oct 14 11:03:49 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:03:49 -0400 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20051014180349.GD15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 08:50:51AM -0700, Scott Schultz wrote: > Steve Simmons wrote: > >While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or > >isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't > >imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of > >unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd > >let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made > >for purpose of killing the Gods. > The Gods are surprisingly tolerant when it comes to property ownership > rights. Verra knows exactly what Spellbreaker is when Vlad shows it to her. > She could have simply taken it from him. For that matter, if she'd asked him > to give it to her, he probably would have done so given the proper > convincing. Even when Vlad finally creates Godslayer, Verra reacts with a > certain amount of disgust but she doesn't strike Vlad down or otherwise try > to take it from him. I don't think there's enough textual evidence to settle those points one way or the other. When Verra encounters Vlad with Spellbreaker, it reacts to her emphaticly. This argues that Spellbreaker 'knows' its purpose, and is willing and maybe even enthusiastic in acting on it even though not yet a great weapon. Given that the pre-Godslayer capabilities of Spellbreaker include the neutralization of magic, it could well be a threat to Verra even prior to the fusing with the soul and the Morganti weapon. IMHO Verra, having a reasonable sense of self-preservation, decided to let the short-lived Easterner hold it for a few years rather than risk taking it from him. As for property ownership - Verra is pretty free about risking the lives of her worshippers; why would she worry about their possessions? > A better question is whether a Great Weapon would allow itself to be taken > into the Paths by a dead soul. IMHO, of course it would. Part of its purpose is to attack the Gods. To do that, first you've got to get within blades reach of them. > The Lords of Judgement should be able to dispose of all of the Great > Weapons, yet they haven't done so, Godslayer being the sole exception. Textev on both points? -- "Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind Cannot bear very much reality." T. S. Eliot, from Burnt Norton in "Four Quartets" From steve.rapaport at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:05:58 2005 From: steve.rapaport at gmail.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:05:58 +0200 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? Message-ID: -What is the defining characteristic that makes a weapon Great? What -happens when that same characteristic is applied to a non-weapon? I was under the impression that a Great Weapon had a soul of its own, and that this is the distinguishing characteristic, or at least one of them. No proof here, just obvious examples. --Steve the Younger From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:11:59 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:11:59 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014180349.GD15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20051014180349.GD15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510141111y69d8d76cy1e73a6abc0291b4b@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, Steve Simmons wrote: > As for property ownership - Verra is pretty free about risking the > lives of her worshippers; why would she worry about their possessions? They're pretty free about risking their own lives, too, whereas taking stuff from people without killing them first is just rude. (Gods and courtesy... capriciousness...) And maybe Verra isn't quite as cold-blooded as we, and Aliera, seem to think. I remember an exchange something like this: "Could I refuse a request for help from my daughter?" "Easily." "Perhaps you don't know me as well as you think." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:14:06 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:14:06 -0600 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510141114g1a3f956ahaac7178d8f999ba1@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, Steve Rapaport wrote: > -What is the defining characteristic that makes a weapon Great? What > -happens when that same characteristic is applied to a non-weapon? It seems to have something to do with an intelligence that goes beyond the dim sentience of Morganti weapons. At least, it seems that people recognize e.g. Blackwand as a great weapon not because it's as famous as Godslayer, but rather because of something about its aura. Apparently they just *know*. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Oct 14 11:55:57 2005 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:55:57 -0400 Subject: German Covers (through Athyra) Message-ID: <19f629019f17fb.19f17fb19f6290@gwu.edu> Don't know if people have seen these yet, but here is a collection of links: http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/bilder/jhereg.jpg http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/bilder/taltos.jpg http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/bilder/yendi.jpg http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/bilder/teckla.jpg http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/bilder/phoenix.jpg http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/bilder/athyra.jpg and the home page for the series for you German speakers: http://www.bibliotheka-phantastika.de/zyklen/zyklentaltos.htm I actually find it pretty interesting that these seem to be new publications in Germany. Cheers to them then! And I also stumbled across this: http://www.welt-der-fantasy.de/awards.php In which SKZB's least favorite book is up for... some... award... or something. I have to say, the've grown on me since I first spotted them. Especially the Teckla one. Attjen From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 12:07:10 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:07:10 -0400 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510141114g1a3f956ahaac7178d8f999ba1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0510141114g1a3f956ahaac7178d8f999ba1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A Great Weapon's field of dread or whatever is much more noticeable than many, many Morganti weapons; when Vlad was in Baritt's morganti room he is very uncomfortable, but not as uncomfortable as Iceflame, Pathfinder, and Blackwand out at the same time apparently causes him severe distress. I believe owning a Great Weapon would nullify these feelings. On 10/14/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 10/14/05, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > -What is the defining characteristic that makes a weapon Great? What > > -happens when that same characteristic is applied to a non-weapon? > > It seems to have something to do with an intelligence that goes beyond > the dim sentience of Morganti weapons. At least, it seems that people > recognize e.g. Blackwand as a great weapon not because it's as famous > as Godslayer, but rather because of something about its aura. > Apparently they just *know*. > > Max > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 12:08:31 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:08:31 -0400 Subject: Hmmmmm In-Reply-To: <20051014151759.26630.qmail@server261.com> References: <20051014151759.26630.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: Well, it would certainly explain why Kiera is so snuggly with Vlad, and why Sethra let Dolivar go, for example. On 10/14/05, Rook wrote: > > > > From: Louis Eastman > > I wonder if Dolivar was Sethra's lover? Random speculation ahoy. > > Well, I've always suspected as much, but then I've written fanfic. ^_^ > It's certianly psychologically plausible, given what we know of the > characters - and I suspect that Sethra was a lot, er, warmer in her youth. > From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Oct 14 15:21:30 2005 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:21:30 -0500 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014180349.GD15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20051014222116.MTZY5336.centrmmtao01.cox.net@Asminath> .I don't think there's enough textual evidence to settle those points .one way or the other. When Verra encounters Vlad with Spellbreaker, .it reacts to her emphaticly. This argues that Spellbreaker 'knows' .its purpose, and is willing and maybe even enthusiastic in acting on .it even though not yet a great weapon. Given that the pre-Godslayer .capabilities of Spellbreaker include the neutralization of magic, .it could well be a threat to Verra even prior to the fusing with the .soul and the Morganti weapon. I do not believe as spellbreaker it could neutralize her powers. I think, if I remember the sequence right, that he set spellbreaker spinning, then uttered a short prayer to verra, as was his habit before doing something stupid, and was greatly surprised when she answered..... andy From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 14 16:27:43 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:27:43 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <43503EEF.4040201@brazee.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or >isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't >imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of >unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd >let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made >for purpose of killing the Gods. > > I'm not recalling this. Where did you hear this? Was that the intent of Pathfinder? From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 14 16:30:03 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:30:03 -0600 Subject: Hmmmmm In-Reply-To: <20051014151759.26630.qmail@server261.com> References: <20051014151759.26630.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: <43503F7B.1000109@brazee.net> Rook wrote: >Well, I've always suspected as much, but then I've written fanfic. ^_^ It's certianly psychologically plausible, given what we know of the characters - and I suspect that Sethra was a lot, er, warmer in her youth. > > Funny reply. But Sethra can pass as someone who's not suspected of being undead. Besides not having much of an appetite, what are her symptoms? From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Oct 14 16:31:34 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:31:34 +0200 Subject: German Covers (through Athyra) In-Reply-To: <19f629019f17fb.19f17fb19f6290@gwu.edu> Message-ID: >Subject: German Covers (through Athyra) Heh, those remind me of the covers of agent stories from the 60-ies. :) From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 14 16:32:18 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:32:18 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43504002.6050103@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >One has to wonder why they didn't send it into another dimension or at >least place the knife and the chain in a vault in the Paths for safe >keeping. > > My guess. It isn't their nature to do so. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 14 16:50:39 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <43503EEF.4040201@brazee.net> References: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43503EEF.4040201@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > Steve Simmons wrote: > > >unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd > >let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made > >for purpose of killing the Gods. > > > > > I'm not recalling this. Where did you hear this? Was that the intent > of Pathfinder? Read Issola. Issola. Yes. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Oct 14 16:53:50 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <43504002.6050103@brazee.net> References: <43504002.6050103@brazee.net> Message-ID: > Scott Schultz wrote: > > >One has to wonder why they didn't send it into another dimension or at > >least place the knife and the chain in a vault in the Paths for safe > >keeping. They attempted to destroy the weapon - perhaps by throwing it in an active volcano. Maybe they weren't able to extract it or assumed there wasn't anything to extract, but someone else was sufficiently skilled or optimistic... From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 18:01:12 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:01:12 -0600 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0510141114g1a3f956ahaac7178d8f999ba1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510141801q15bf5722i996af458f443174c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > A Great Weapon's field of dread or whatever is much more noticeable than > many, many Morganti > weapons; when Vlad was in Baritt's morganti room he is very uncomfortable, > but not as uncomfortable as Iceflame, Pathfinder, and Blackwand out at the > same time apparently causes him severe distress. I believe owning a Great > Weapon would nullify these feelings. I believe the Morganti weapon-room "still" gives him nightmares; a much stronger reaction even than three simultaneously-drawn Great Weapons. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scs at di.org Fri Oct 14 18:52:17 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:52:17 -0400 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <43503EEF.4040201@brazee.net> References: <434EEF9C.5070009@brazee.net> <20051014040303.YASX21553.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43503EEF.4040201@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20051015015217.GC17310@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 05:27:43PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > Steve Simmons wrote: > > ... a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made > >for purpose of killing the Gods. > I'm not recalling this. Where did you hear this? Was that the intent > of Pathfinder? If I recall correctly, this is stated when Vlad meets the Serioli. Unfortunately my books are out on loan. Anybody else recall this? -- "Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind Cannot bear very much reality." T. S. Eliot, from Burnt Norton in "Four Quartets" From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Fri Oct 14 21:46:23 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:46:23 -0400 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:19:09 PDT." Message-ID: <200510150446.j9F4kOPf017414@vice-grips.mit.edu> That's the first pic of a Jhereg I've seen that looks right to me > On 10/11/05, Noah Stacy wrote: > > > > On Oct 11, 2005, at 4:12 AM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > On 10/10/05, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Don't jhereg have 4 limbs, not six? These sketches give them legs, > > >> "hands", and wings, while I think that they actually only have legs > > >> and wings, which they sometimes use in an approximation of hands. > > >> > > > > > > You are entirely correct regarding the notional anatomy of jhereg, but > > > you must keep in mind that artists, professional and otherwise, rarely > > > if ever consult with the writer before creating their art. > > > > > > Indeed, there is only one counter-example that I can think of who has > > > created Dragaeran art to SKZBs specifications; as I hope you recall. > > > > Say, would you mind posting that one? A friend of mine (not on the > > list) hasn't seen it, and I'd like to show him. > > > > [copy and paste is our friend] > > The artist who has done the most to portray the animals of Brust's > Dragaeran Cycle is Kathy Grantham (she who was once named Kathy > Marschall - you may notice a certain similarity between that name and > another name from one of the books; this is not a coincidence) (and > if you have access to /Brokedown Palace/ or the original Ace edition > of /Yendi/, check the signatures on the maps in each of those). > > Here is what she has done: > > > Phoenix: > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/phoenixcolor96.jpg.html > > Dzur Mountain (including an actual dzur): > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/dzur96.jpg.html > > Tiassa: > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/tiassa.jpg.html > > Orca: > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/orca.jpg.html > > Issola: > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/issola.jpg.html > > Jhereg: > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/jhereg.jpg.html > > > Note that the jhereg doesn't look much like the one on the bookcovers, > but is reportedly closer to SKZB's actual mental image. > > Note also that the orca only superficially resembles an Earth orca, > which I believe is a strong indication that they are completely > different native animals; see also the comments above the image. > > Of course, now Steve may pipe up and say, "No, they're *evolved* > (or engineered by the Jenoine) from Earth orca; it has been a long > time for that species, after all". So what do I know? > > By the way, Steve, you once mentioned in an interview having some > Dragaeran art by Kathy over your desk, or something like that - > any chance we could get a glimpse of it? A thumbnail, even? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Oct 14 21:48:25 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:48:25 -0700 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: <200510150446.j9F4kOPf017414@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200510150446.j9F4kOPf017414@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <43508A19.1070508@dreamcafe.com> Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > That's the first pic of a Jhereg I've seen that looks right to me > Well, it *is* the official one. >>Jhereg: >> http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/jhereg.jpg.html From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 02:23:10 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 05:23:10 -0400 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510141801q15bf5722i996af458f443174c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0510141114g1a3f956ahaac7178d8f999ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0510141801q15bf5722i996af458f443174c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Didn't Vlad at one point say he was barely able to act with all 3 out? Or that it was a miracle he was still conscious? Something to that effect. On 10/14/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 10/14/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > > A Great Weapon's field of dread or whatever is much more noticeable than > > many, many Morganti > > weapons; when Vlad was in Baritt's morganti room he is very > uncomfortable, > > but not as uncomfortable as Iceflame, Pathfinder, and Blackwand out at > the > > same time apparently causes him severe distress. I believe owning a > Great > > Weapon would nullify these feelings. > > I believe the Morganti weapon-room "still" gives him nightmares; a > much stronger reaction even than three simultaneously-drawn Great > Weapons. > > Max > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > > From sethra500 at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 05:27:35 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Sethra) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 08:27:35 -0400 Subject: German Covers (through Athyra) In-Reply-To: <19f629019f17fb.19f17fb19f6290@gwu.edu> References: <19f629019f17fb.19f17fb19f6290@gwu.edu> Message-ID: <30991dd10510150527y5da9f525se0bfb399877d92e9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/14/05, Matthew Jennings wrote: > > Don't know if people have seen these yet, but here is a collection of > links: > > German cover art: Those are acctually pretty cool! I like the american versions better though. More color :o) -- Sethra "I am not an adventurer by choice but by fate." -- Vincent Van Gogh (1853-90), Dutch postimpressionist painter From sethra500 at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 05:29:57 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Sethra) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 08:29:57 -0400 Subject: More Dragaera Art, Pro and Amateur In-Reply-To: <43508A19.1070508@dreamcafe.com> References: <200510150446.j9F4kOPf017414@vice-grips.mit.edu> <43508A19.1070508@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <30991dd10510150529s5f8d25e7na6ab313de57b5d8a@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, Steven Brust wrote: > > > > Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > That's the first pic of a Jhereg I've seen that looks right to me > > > > Well, it *is* the official one. > > > >>Jhereg: > >> http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/jhereg.jpg.html > > > I love all her work! I came across her art before finding the list. All of her Drageara animals look more realistic. -- Sethra "I am not an adventurer by choice but by fate." -- Vincent Van Gogh (1853-90), Dutch postimpressionist painter From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Oct 15 12:34:02 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:34:02 +0000 Subject: Interesting Question Message-ID: Hey, I was just thinking of Taltos, and specifically the scene where they confront the Goddess and talk about the nature of the paths. The line "Don't come back here again, Easterner" or whatever it is strikes me as very significant. Especially when you consider that as a Goddess, she must have known the soul she was talking to. Jon From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Oct 15 17:04:08 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:04:08 +0000 Subject: Interesting Question In-Reply-To: <20051015230233.ZTHB10626.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: I think it silly to believe that Verra had no idea what Spellbreaker would become--she helped put it in that state, after all. Furthermore, I'm sure she can feel something weird when it comes to Spellbreaker--I mean, if Sethra knows a little about it, surely SOMEONE must know more about it. But anyway, I say that she must have known what soul she was talking to because of 1) Who she is and 2) what her mandate as a goddess is. So that leads to the question: Is it Dolivar or Vlad to whom she says, Do not Ever come back? Jon From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 21:38:49 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051016043850.75033.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > While some portion of Fenarr might have been bound to the sword, I > don't think that whatever portion that was, was capable of making > clear and rational decisions as you describe above. Indeed, one of > the things noted about ?llam was that it had the tendency to cause the > wielder to become an insane berserker, forsaking rational thought for > a nearly pure destructive bloodlust. OTOH, GWs have personalities. What kind of personalities? We might speculate:OTOH, GWs have personalities. What kind of personalities? We might speculate: seventeen GWs : seventeen Houses We only "feel" two of these Weapons' personalities from their wielders' POV, and those personalities have pretty clear associations: Godslayer/Lady Teldra : Issola Blackwand : Dragon Given your description of ?llam (which I agree with), it too has an obvious House style: ?llam : Dzur Having said that, I must agree with the rest of your analysis. ---- Also in this thread, Jon wrote: >So Verra has (or rather had) a connection to a good number of the great >weapons: Blackwand, which is now in the hands of her lover No, her lover's cousin. Adron was Verra's lover, and he died in his Disaster (although...). Aliera, their daughter, is cousin to Morrolan, who has held Blackwand since Sethra Lavode gave it to him (with some prompting or reminders from Chaz, IIRC). >And Norska, in case anyone didn't know, are rabbits, or rabbit-like creatures. With fangs. m a m / c & s __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From johne.cook at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 22:26:25 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:26:25 -0500 Subject: OSC's InterGalactic Medicine Show e-zine goes live Message-ID: http://dkamagazine.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=5273#5273 Orson Scott Card's online e-zine, the InterGalactic Medicine Show, has gone live as of October 15th: http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com/cgi-bin/mag.cgi?do=content&article=home I popped over, created a login, and discovered that a) they pay pretty well for stories, art, and so on, and b) that means that they charge cash money for the pleasure of reading their publication. Fine. It was a painless $2.50 via PayPal, and I had access to the whole enchilada in no time. The format could use some work. Basically, each story is one long HTML page. While each story has some stellar artwork, the continual page-down, page-down, page-down of it prompts one to wonder if they've never heard of the WordPress concept of breaking up stories into logical pages. Deep Magic's approach is superior in this respect, but hey, DM's been doing it longer: http://www.deep-magic.net/issues.php?issues=current Read the rest of my first-blush observations at DKA magazine: http://dkamagazine.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=5273#5273 -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sat Oct 15 23:49:09 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:49:09 EDT Subject: OSC's InterGalactic Medicine Show e-zine goes live Message-ID: <12e.68896a96.308351e5@aol.com> johne.cook at gmail.com wrote on 10/16/2005 1:27:11 AM : >that means that they charge cash money for the pleasure of reading their >publication. That's cashy money. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 00:18:38 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:18:38 -0700 Subject: Interesting Question In-Reply-To: References: <20051015230233.ZTHB10626.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: On 10/15/05, J C wrote: > > So that leads to the question: > > Is it Dolivar or Vlad to whom she says, Do not Ever come back? > I think it would be reasonable to conclude that by appending "Easterner", she was emphasizing that she was referring to the current body housing the soul, not the soul itself. Or so it seems to me. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 00:39:16 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:39:16 -0700 Subject: Question on "Fenarian pronunciation", for SKZB Message-ID: Hey Steve, I was looking at the introduction to /Brokedown Palace/, and specifically, "A Note on Fenarian Pronunciation". Would it be OK with you if that were typed up and included in a wikicities article on the Fenarian language? With full attributions, of course. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Oct 16 00:55:51 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:55:51 -0700 Subject: Question on "Fenarian pronunciation", for SKZB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43520787.1080603@dreamcafe.com> That would be great. Thanks for asking. Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Hey Steve, > > I was looking at the introduction to /Brokedown Palace/, and > specifically, "A Note on Fenarian Pronunciation". > > Would it be OK with you if that were typed up and included in a > wikicities article on the Fenarian language? > > With full attributions, of course. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Oct 16 03:12:38 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:12:38 +0000 Subject: Norska Message-ID: Norska are certainly rabbits...with fangs. I guarantee, then, that somewhere on Dragaera, there is a cave with a large number of bones outside of it, perhaps with knights reconnoitering outside, soiling their armor wondering what kind of beast lies within... Jon From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 16 11:16:02 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:16:02 -0600 Subject: Interesting Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435298E2.8040507@brazee.net> J C wrote: >So that leads to the question: > >Is it Dolivar or Vlad to whom she says, Do not Ever come back? > >Jon > > It has to be Vlad. She likes order and rules. She's saying that if Vlad returns there will be consequences Vlad won't like. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 16 19:41:31 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:41:31 EDT Subject: House characteristics Message-ID: <53.323e0123.3084695b@aol.com> On Dzurs: "While the warriors of the House of Dragon are justly known for the rage that often consumes them in battle, still, even the most loyal of Dragonlords will confess that, when a Dzurlord passes beyond the joy of battle, and, instead, is consumed by fury, nothing can compare--Dzurlords have been know to kill friend and foe alike in such circumstances." Sethra Lavode, paperback, Chapter the Ninety-Sixth, page 300. From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 19:48:03 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 20:48:03 -0600 Subject: Interesting Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510161948t4b54a59dn1295393b1adb34cc@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/05, J C wrote: > > Hey, I was just thinking of Taltos, and specifically the scene where they > confront the Goddess and talk about the nature of the paths. > > The line "Don't come back here again, Easterner" or whatever it is strikes > me as very significant. > In the context, she's telling Vlad that he can get away with leaving alive because the Rules only cover Dragaerans. She's clearly implying that relying on that trick working twice would be a bad idea. I don't think that says anything about him being barred from the Paths after death. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Oct 16 20:58:40 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:58:40 EDT Subject: Interesting Question Message-ID: <219.b959878.30847b70@aol.com> On 10/15/05, J C wrote: > > Hey, I was just thinking of Taltos, and specifically the scene where they > confront the Goddess and talk about the nature of the paths. > > The line "Don't come back here again, Easterner" or whatever it is strikes > Me as very significant. > Here is the quote: "'Your Easterner friend could never have come here without a living body to carry him. No, the soul doesn't matter, but it's more complicated than that. It is the blood. As a living man he could bring himself here, and as a living man he can leave.' She suddenly looked at me. 'Once. Don't come back, Fenarian.'" The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 15, page 156. howard at brazee.net wrote on 10/16/2005 2:16:42 PM about Verra: >She likes order and rules. And on that Verra would say "Tough cookies". "'It is also forbidden,' said Barlan. 'Tough cookies,' said Verra. ... Verra said, 'A convocation will also be boring.' 'You would break our trust to avoid boredom?' 'You damn betcha, feather-breath.' The Book of Taltos, Taltos, Chapter 13, page 136. On page 156, Verra also says "Your familiar shares your fate, of course." I hope that also is significant and doesn't just mean that Loiosh can leave with Vlad. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 23:58:29 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:58:29 -0700 Subject: Question on "Fenarian pronunciation", for SKZB In-Reply-To: <43520787.1080603@dreamcafe.com> References: <43520787.1080603@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: On 10/16/05, Steven Brust wrote: > That would be great. Thanks for asking. > And thank you for the permission. I have written it up and added it to Wikicities. I did make one correction to the text, as long as I was typing it up anyway. /Dan/ Webster was a politician. /Noah/ Webster was the lexicographer, which I am nearly entirely certain was the intent of that particular sentence to allude to. Hope that's OK... From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Mon Oct 17 05:12:32 2005 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (Steven Hall) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:12:32 -0400 Subject: Hmmmmm Message-ID: > From: Louis Eastman > I wonder if Dolivar was Sethra's lover? Random speculation ahoy. There is a paragraph in Chapter 2 of Issola that might elude to that, depending on how one looks at it. "Consider those you know of who were once your family, and those who mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist for you to imagine, much less remember. Kieron is now, and remains in the Paths of the Dead awaiting his moment. I, who had some importance in the tribe, am here, watching the Great Weapons, observing the Jenoine, listening to the gods, and trying to see that nothing upsets the balance." It also seems that Sethra might have been in the Tribe of the Dragon, even though in Taltos Morrolan says Sethra went over Deathgate as a Dzur. *shrug* From ike at manor.org Mon Oct 17 09:06:41 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Norska In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, J C wrote: > Norska are certainly rabbits...with fangs. > > I guarantee, then, that somewhere on Dragaera, there is a cave with a > large number of bones outside of it, perhaps with knights reconnoitering > outside, soiling their armor wondering what kind of beast lies within... ...Score!... From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Oct 17 09:25:20 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:25:20 -0700 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <15a001c5d337$5e064b60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Steve Simmons wrote: > > I'm not recalling this. Where did you hear this? Was that the intent > of Pathfinder? In _Issola_, Sethra gives Vlad a lecture on the origin and nature of the Great Weapons wherein she reveals that the hope of the Serioli was that they would be used to destroy the Lords of Judgement. The gods have mostly subverted them to their service instead, but you never know what the future holds... Basically, from the Serioli point of view the gods are no better than the Jenoine. They're all a bunch of oppressors. What we know about Pathfinder specifically comes from Vlad and Morollan's visit to the old serioli in, I believe, _Dragon_. The impression we get (or that I get, anyway) is that Pathfinder was orignally designed to work in tandem with Godslayer. Pathfinder would unerringly locate the target God and transport you to it and Godslayer would kill it for you. According to the serioli Pathfinder became something other than it was intended. Judging by the things we've seen it do that might mean that it turned out more powerful than intended and that it now can locate most anything, anywhere. Then again, it might indicate something else entirely and we might be surprised down the road when Pathfinder does something unexpected. It's interesting that Aliera felt that Pathfinder had been attempting to come to her and that Morollan's war was a consequence of that. Pathfinder may not just be a magical sword that "finds" the path. It may be a magical sword that "creates" a path, whether it's between two locations in space or between two events in time. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Oct 17 09:32:09 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:32:09 +0000 Subject: Norska Message-ID: Here is my hypothesis, rendered into story-form: "The Orca led his brigand friends into a small rain-ditch near the clearing. Around them were strewn bones larger than a man, and this caused the Orca no small amount of concern. 'I wonder what fell beast eats creatures the size of that!' the Orca pondered, not without some anxiety. 'Sir! Look over there!" his second-in-command whispered tensely. The woman was pointing with a trembling finger to a skull at one end of the clearing. It was big, it was cracked and old, but it was most certainly...a dragon. 'Cracks and shards! What hunts dragons? And what is that smell?' There was a quick spell, concealed, but the Captain could detect and identify it. It was a cleaning spell, directed to the hindquarters of one of his men. At any other time, he would have been amused. 'Bring out my bag'. The Captain's thoughts wandered to the jewel inside, a strange green colour, though it sometimes looked purple, that a sorceress in Adrilankha had assured him had the power to destroy a city, if used properly. When his man brought his bag, the man quietly brought out the jewel, and a book he had purchased on obscure forms of sorcery. He turned to the section on 'Moste Potente Artifacts' but found nothing there aside from some odd instructions that required one to count to three. 'Verra take it anyway.' The Captain put both book and jewel back in the bag in disgust. 'Okay, Rander, you go explore. Carefully.' 'Yes sir.' The man left to explore with a brave look on his face that did nothing to conceal his fear or stupidity. The Athyra next to the Captain started going into one of his spells. He warned that the man was as good as dead, but half of what the Athyra said was crazy or non-sensical anyway, so the Captain discarded it. Until the man exploring the clearing stood up as something small and white bolted through the air at him, and cleanly removed his head. The Captain caught the last sentence of the Athyra's ravings. 'Look at the BONES!'" 'Damn Fenario anyway,' the Captain said in fear. He gave the order to advance. The men obeyed, and it wasn't long before the white streak came out and started killing them as they moved to the attack. The man immediately right of the Captain went down, and the Captain was able to glance the white streak as it slowed down at the man's neck. There was a glint of silver, round, small, and, impossibly, engraved. It said 'Huga,' whatever that meant." (Jon's _Pararectal Wisdom_, pp.107-108) Jon From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Oct 17 09:39:46 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:39:46 +0000 Subject: Pathfinder In-Reply-To: <15a001c5d337$5e064b60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: whoops, sent this wrong: I always got the feeeling that Pathfinder could "find the true path" around the God's defenses, if required to. It just isn't as good at slaying gods as Godslayer was, because it has to work around the defenses, instead of dissolving a path right through them. Jon ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Subject: RE: Allam, and Communism Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:25:20 -0700 > Steve Simmons wrote: > > I'm not recalling this. Where did you hear this? Was that the intent > of Pathfinder? In _Issola_, Sethra gives Vlad a lecture on the origin and nature of the Great Weapons wherein she reveals that the hope of the Serioli was that they would be used to destroy the Lords of Judgement. The gods have mostly subverted them to their service instead, but you never know what the future holds... Basically, from the Serioli point of view the gods are no better than the Jenoine. They're all a bunch of oppressors. What we know about Pathfinder specifically comes from Vlad and Morollan's visit to the old serioli in, I believe, _Dragon_. The impression we get (or that I get, anyway) is that Pathfinder was orignally designed to work in tandem with Godslayer. Pathfinder would unerringly locate the target God and transport you to it and Godslayer would kill it for you. According to the serioli Pathfinder became something other than it was intended. Judging by the things we've seen it do that might mean that it turned out more powerful than intended and that it now can locate most anything, anywhere. Then again, it might indicate something else entirely and we might be surprised down the road when Pathfinder does something unexpected. It's interesting that Aliera felt that Pathfinder had been attempting to come to her and that Morollan's war was a consequence of that. Pathfinder may not just be a magical sword that "finds" the path. It may be a magical sword that "creates" a path, whether it's between two locations in space or between two events in time. From walshm at ipfw.edu Mon Oct 17 13:35:13 2005 From: walshm at ipfw.edu (Matthew Walsh) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:35:13 -0500 Subject: Hmmmmm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9056e05e7155d98724793c9396ee7231@ipfw.edu> On Oct 17, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Steven Hall wrote: > "Consider those you know of who were once your family, and those who > mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist for you to imagine, > much less remember. Kieron is now, and remains in the Paths of the > Dead awaiting his moment. I, who had some importance in the tribe, am > here, watching the Great Weapons, observing the Jenoine, listening to > the gods, and trying to see that nothing upsets the balance." > > It also seems that Sethra might have been in the Tribe of the Dragon, > even though in Taltos Morrolan says Sethra went over Deathgate as a > Dzur. *shrug* Well, we do know that it's possible to join the House of the Dzur by defeating 17 heroes in single combat, right? So maybe Sethra's genetically a Dragon but chose Dzur-dom. (Hm. Is "dual citizenship" -- membership in multiple Houses -- possible? Mellar specifically renounced his membership in the Dzur when he returned to the Jhereg, IIRC, and the Jhereg are sort of a special case in any event. Vlad's reaction in Taltos -- "I thought she was a Dragon" -- suggests otherwise, but this could be one of those things that people don't talk about... at least, not to Vlad.) If there is no dual citizenship, why might Sethra have left the Dragons? The Lavodes' meeting in Chapter 30, FHYA might offer a clue to that; one of them (Roila?) mentioned that many of the corps chose to join the Lavodes as a way to avoid (or escape from) conflicts between duty and loyalty/friendship, right? Possibly that's a tradition that started with their Captain, who left her very House as the only escape from an unwelcome conflict...? - - Matt - - From rogue at primushost.com Tue Oct 18 00:51:43 2005 From: rogue at primushost.com (Toby Seltsam) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pathfinder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll preface this by saying hello to everyone, since it's my first post in the list. And that having been said: This talk about Pathfinder, coupled with the "what house is each Great Weapon" discussion from earlier, has started me wondering about what house Pathfinder's personality might have been. I'm inclined, based on what little we've seen thus far, to say Hawk. It's hard to say why...but it reminds me a bit of Daymar, in a general sense of course. I think I like the concept that Pathfinder was designed to perform a specific task for the other Great Weapons. Is it possible that each Great Weapon has a specialized role that complements each other, as designed by the Serioli? Some chain of events is started by weapon #1, to be forwarded by the unique powers of the other 16 weapons until Godslayer, at the end of the chain, is used to kill a god? Maybe, where we've all understood the sentiment to be that Great Weapons kill gods, it's just that Great Weapons enable the killing of gods? And if I've missed something, I humbly apologize - it's late and I'm not near my books right now. Also, possibly related to this conversation - I do remember that in Issola, Verra assumes that the intrepid heroes used Blackwand to...get out of the Jenoine Cave? Like I said, a little fuzzy right now. In any event, she's surprised when it turns out to be Pathfinder. My questions there would be 1.Why? and 2.Does she know so little about the weapons as to not know that Pathfinder tends to be better at that sort of thing (assuming that it really is better, and that's not a mistaken impression). > whoops, sent this wrong: > > I always got the feeeling that Pathfinder could "find the true path" around > the God's defenses, if required to. It just isn't as good at slaying gods > as Godslayer was, because it has to work around the defenses, instead of > dissolving a path right through them. > > Jon > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Scott Schultz" > To: > Subject: RE: Allam, and Communism > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:25:20 -0700 > > > > Steve Simmons wrote: > > > > I'm not recalling this. Where did you hear this? Was that the intent > > of Pathfinder? > > In _Issola_, Sethra gives Vlad a lecture on the origin and nature of the > Great Weapons wherein she reveals that the hope of the Serioli was that they > would be used to destroy the Lords of Judgement. The gods have mostly > subverted them to their service instead, but you never know what the future > holds... > > Basically, from the Serioli point of view the gods are no better than the > Jenoine. They're all a bunch of oppressors. > > What we know about Pathfinder specifically comes from Vlad and Morollan's > visit to the old serioli in, I believe, _Dragon_. The impression we get (or > that I get, anyway) is that Pathfinder was orignally designed to work in > tandem with Godslayer. Pathfinder would unerringly locate the target God and > transport you to it and Godslayer would kill it for you. > > According to the serioli Pathfinder became something other than it was > intended. Judging by the things we've seen it do that might mean that it > turned out more powerful than intended and that it now can locate most > anything, anywhere. Then again, it might indicate something else entirely > and we might be surprised down the road when Pathfinder does something > unexpected. It's interesting that Aliera felt that Pathfinder had been > attempting to come to her and that Morollan's war was a consequence of that. > Pathfinder may not just be a magical sword that "finds" the path. It may be > a magical sword that "creates" a path, whether it's between two locations in > space or between two events in time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Toby Seltsam | rogue at shore.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Tue Oct 18 06:46:22 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:22 -0400 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510141801q15bf5722i996af458f443174c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 10/14/2005 09:01:12 PM: > On 10/14/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > > A Great Weapon's field of dread or whatever is much more noticeable than > > many, many Morganti > > weapons; when Vlad was in Baritt's morganti room he is very uncomfortable, > > but not as uncomfortable as Iceflame, Pathfinder, and Blackwand out at the > > same time apparently causes him severe distress. I believe owning a Great > > Weapon would nullify these feelings. > > I believe the Morganti weapon-room "still" gives him nightmares; a > much stronger reaction even than three simultaneously-drawn Great > Weapons. > > Max if this is in reference to the part i think it's in reference to (i'm starting to mix up different parts of the books, i think it may be time to read them again, darn), i thought vlad couldn't even go into that room without daymar's help. didn't daymar shield him somehow and then he was able to stand going into the room? it was still uncomfortable, but not paralyzing. From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Tue Oct 18 06:49:34 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:49:34 -0400 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <20051014132917.GB15859@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 10/14/2005 09:29:17 AM: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 11:03:07PM -0500, andy wrote: > > > Pardon me if I'm wrong, but a Great Weapon is exclusively the creation of > > the serioli (sp), is it not? Kieron's greatsword, in as much as we know > > anything of it, functions as a large piece of stabbity-hack metal, a potent > > symbol of conquest, and potentially a talisman to draw the soul of Kieron > > from the paths....which, by vote of irony, I hope goes into an easterner who > > recovers it from StY's smoking corpse. > > While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or > isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't > imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of > unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd > let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made > for purpose of killing the Gods. i thought morrolan entered the paths of the dead with blackwand? From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Oct 18 07:00:25 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:00:25 +0200 Subject: What makes a Great Weapon great? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carla Hunt wrote: >To: Maximilian Wilson >CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, >steve at rapaport.com,dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: What makes a Great Weapon great? >Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:22 -0400 > >dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 10/14/2005 09:01:12 PM: > > > On 10/14/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > > > A Great Weapon's field of dread or whatever is much more noticeable >than > > > many, many Morganti > > > weapons; when Vlad was in Baritt's morganti room he is very >uncomfortable, > > > but not as uncomfortable as Iceflame, Pathfinder, and Blackwand out at >the > > > same time apparently causes him severe distress. I believe owning a >Great > > > Weapon would nullify these feelings. > > > > I believe the Morganti weapon-room "still" gives him nightmares; a > > much stronger reaction even than three simultaneously-drawn Great > > Weapons. > > > > Max > >if this is in reference to the part i think it's in reference to (i'm >starting to mix up different parts of the books, i think it may be time to >read them again, darn), i thought vlad couldn't even go into that room >without daymar's help. didn't daymar shield him somehow and then he was >able to stand going into the room? it was still uncomfortable, but not >paralyzing. Yes, Daymar needed to shield Vlad. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Tue Oct 18 16:17:25 2005 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:17:25 -0400 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Carla Hunt >To: Steve Simmons >CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Allam, and Communism >Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:49:34 -0400 > > > > While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or > > isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't > > imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of > > unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd > > let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made > > for purpose of killing the Gods. > >i thought morrolan entered the paths of the dead with blackwand? He did take Blackwand into the Paths of the Dead. However, from re-reading the interview with the Serioli in Dragon (at the bottom), I'm thinking that only Pathfinder and Godslayer were designed to destroy a god. Pathfinder became something else, but from the sounds of it, it was designed to act as a partner to Godslayer, which it can still do. Godslayer must be called 'Remover of aspects of deity' for a reason, which would make it capable of doing more than any other Great Weapon when used against a god. In Issola, Vlad is asked to "prevent the Goddess from manifesting" on Dragaera, using only a powerful morganti weapon. Morrolan accomplishes the same thing when he fights Tri'nagore with Blackwand, so there doesn't seem to be a difference between the other Great Weapons and a morganti weapon when used against a god, unless it's Godslayer. That's my take on all of this anyways. Dragon, Chapter 7 - What Was the Question? "Some of our people," he continued, "desired divinity and crafted artifacts to find and then destroy those who sit on the Thrones of Judgment. One of these became something other than what it had been designed to be; it became a device for the finding of?well, for the finding of whatever the wielder wished to find, based on the principle that all of life, including the desire of will, is part of?" "If you please," said Morrolan. "The other?" "The other was taken by the Gods, and an attempt was made to destroy it." "I can imagine," I said under my breath. "Both are now lost; when one is found, the other is likely to turn up." From bryann at bryann.net Tue Oct 18 17:43:23 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:43:23 -0500 Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c5d446$1c23e1c0$6501a8c0@dell> > What do we know about the Tsalmoth, Vallista, and Jhegaala > houses? I believe they're all somewhat "retail", but what > are their areas of special interest, preferences, etc.? I'm not sure what the status of this project is after the Crash, but I'm rereading The Phoenix Guards, and I found a passage about the tsalmoth: pg 121 - [Ricardo, the Easterner librarian] displayed some of the characteristics of a tsalmoth--attacking any problem from a dozen angles simultaneously, but never letting go until it was solved. Bryan From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 18 21:15:05 2005 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:15:05 -0500 Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: <000b01c5d446$1c23e1c0$6501a8c0@dell> References: <000b01c5d446$1c23e1c0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20051019041505.GB13979@dd-b.net> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 07:43:23PM -0500, Bryan Newell wrote: > > What do we know about the Tsalmoth, Vallista, and Jhegaala > > houses? I believe they're all somewhat "retail", but what > > are their areas of special interest, preferences, etc.? > > I'm not sure what the status of this project is after the Crash, but I'm > rereading The Phoenix Guards, and I found a passage about the tsalmoth: Thanks! Nothing seriously lost, but of course a lot of my time has been eaten up. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 19 06:03:47 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:03:47 -0600 Subject: Who am I? Message-ID: <43564433.9080705@brazee.net> I read that Steve's Cary Grant, so I googled and found http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=8651547809586515731 It's apparent that I could take the test several times with different results. At the last page I had to enable JavaScript in order to put down my birth date - I have to be 18 or older in order to find out I'm Jimmy Stewart this time. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 07:06:04 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:06:04 -0400 Subject: Hmmmmm In-Reply-To: <9056e05e7155d98724793c9396ee7231@ipfw.edu> References: <9056e05e7155d98724793c9396ee7231@ipfw.edu> Message-ID: <435652CC.1040802@earthlink.net> Matthew Walsh wrote: > On Oct 17, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Steven Hall wrote: > >> "Consider those you know of who were once your family, and those who >> mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist for you to imagine, >> much less remember. Kieron is now, and remains in the Paths of the >> Dead awaiting his moment. I, who had some importance in the tribe, am >> here, watching the Great Weapons, observing the Jenoine, listening to >> the gods, and trying to see that nothing upsets the balance." >> >> It also seems that Sethra might have been in the Tribe of the Dragon, >> even though in Taltos Morrolan says Sethra went over Deathgate as a >> Dzur. *shrug* > > > Well, we do know that it's possible to join the House of the Dzur by > defeating 17 heroes in single combat, right? So maybe Sethra's > genetically a Dragon but chose Dzur-dom. (Hm. Is "dual citizenship" > -- membership in multiple Houses -- possible? Mellar specifically > renounced his membership in the Dzur when he returned to the Jhereg, > IIRC, and the Jhereg are sort of a special case in any event. Vlad's > reaction in Taltos -- "I thought she was a Dragon" -- suggests > otherwise, but this could be one of those things that people don't > talk about... at least, not to Vlad.) > > If there is no dual citizenship, why might Sethra have left the > Dragons? The Lavodes' meeting in Chapter 30, FHYA might offer a clue > to that; one of them (Roila?) mentioned that many of the corps chose > to join the Lavodes as a way to avoid (or escape from) conflicts > between duty and loyalty/friendship, right? Possibly that's a > tradition that started with their Captain, who left her very House as > the only escape from an unwelcome conflict...? Mellar may not be the best example for determining the existence of dual citizenship; he specifically renounced his membership in the Dzur to return to the Jhereg all as part of his plan to embarrass the house. If he joins the Jhereg without renouncing citizenship, they may or may not kick him out, but after he beats their 17 heroes, it's like he's spitting in their face to say "I'm not a Dzur, I'm a Jhereg". Sethra's been described as having physical characteristics of both Dragons and Dzur, so she may be the exception, the half-breed that is not only tolerated but welcomed (at least before her being undead banned her from the court, before Zerika's reign). However, her going over the Falls as a Dzur certainly suggests that as her "final" citizenship... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 07:08:12 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:08:12 -0400 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4356534C.8010608@earthlink.net> Carla Hunt wrote: >dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 10/14/2005 09:29:17 AM: > > > >>On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 11:03:07PM -0500, andy wrote: >> >> >> >>>Pardon me if I'm wrong, but a Great Weapon is exclusively the creation >>> >>> >of > > >>>the serioli (sp), is it not? Kieron's greatsword, in as much as we >>> >>> >know > > >>>anything of it, functions as a large piece of stabbity-hack metal, a >>> >>> >potent > > >>>symbol of conquest, and potentially a talisman to draw the soul of >>> >>> >Kieron > > >>>from the paths....which, by vote of irony, I hope goes into an >>> >>> >easterner who > > >>>recovers it from StY's smoking corpse. >>> >>> >>While we've never been told explicitly that Keiron's greatsword is or >>isn't a Morganti weapon (prerequisite to being a Great Weapon), I can't >>imagine the Gods would let him wander around the waiting room of >>unreincarnated with a soul-destroying weapon. Even less likely they'd >>let him carry around a Great Weapon, which, let us recall, were made >>for purpose of killing the Gods. >> >> > >i thought morrolan entered the paths of the dead with blackwand? > He wasn't dead when he did it, and Kieron was; chances are that when he dies, he won't get to take a Great Weapon with him, as it'll still be needed outside the Paths... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net Wed Oct 19 07:17:20 2005 From: stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net (Rebecca Harbison) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:17:20 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House(s) In-Reply-To: <435652CC.1040802@earthlink.net> References: <9056e05e7155d98724793c9396ee7231@ipfw.edu> <435652CC.1040802@earthlink.net> Message-ID: It's also possible that considering Sethra's great age, she was born before the social stigma of being a half-breed were fully developed. So, by the time Dragons and Dzur were rejecting half-breeds, Sethra was already established as a member of both. Or, alternatively, she could have suffered from the stigma, but overcame it through accomplishments. Since apparently the gods are considered part of all Houses (see: Aliera's ancestry), perhaps being offered godhood means that people aren't going to object if you want to claim two Houses. Or perhaps both -- the stigma was lesser during the founding of the Empire, and Sethra was able to overcome it through her own accomplishments. Any discrimination based on half-breed status would add a new twist to Sethra's relationship with Dolivar and the founding of House Jhereg. -- Rebecca Harbison On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Jose Marquez wrote: > Matthew Walsh wrote: > > >> On Oct 17, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Steven Hall wrote: >> >> >>> "Consider those you know of who were once your family, and those >>> who mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist for you to >>> imagine, much less remember. Kieron is now, and remains in the >>> Paths of the Dead awaiting his moment. I, who had some importance >>> in the tribe, am here, watching the Great Weapons, observing the >>> Jenoine, listening to the gods, and trying to see that nothing >>> upsets the balance." >>> >>> It also seems that Sethra might have been in the Tribe of the >>> Dragon, even though in Taltos Morrolan says Sethra went over >>> Deathgate as a Dzur. *shrug* >>> >> >> >> Well, we do know that it's possible to join the House of the Dzur >> by defeating 17 heroes in single combat, right? So maybe Sethra's >> genetically a Dragon but chose Dzur-dom. (Hm. Is "dual >> citizenship" -- membership in multiple Houses -- possible? Mellar >> specifically renounced his membership in the Dzur when he returned >> to the Jhereg, IIRC, and the Jhereg are sort of a special case in >> any event. Vlad's reaction in Taltos -- "I thought she was a >> Dragon" -- suggests otherwise, but this could be one of those >> things that people don't talk about... at least, not to Vlad.) >> >> If there is no dual citizenship, why might Sethra have left the >> Dragons? The Lavodes' meeting in Chapter 30, FHYA might offer a >> clue to that; one of them (Roila?) mentioned that many of the >> corps chose to join the Lavodes as a way to avoid (or escape from) >> conflicts between duty and loyalty/friendship, right? Possibly >> that's a tradition that started with their Captain, who left her >> very House as the only escape from an unwelcome conflict...? >> > > Mellar may not be the best example for determining the existence of > dual citizenship; he specifically renounced his membership in the > Dzur to return to the Jhereg all as part of his plan to embarrass > the house. If he joins the Jhereg without renouncing citizenship, > they may or may not kick him out, but after he beats their 17 > heroes, it's like he's spitting in their face to say "I'm not a > Dzur, I'm a Jhereg". > > Sethra's been described as having physical characteristics of both > Dragons and Dzur, so she may be the exception, the half-breed that > is not only tolerated but welcomed (at least before her being > undead banned her from the court, before Zerika's reign). However, > her going over the Falls as a Dzur certainly suggests that as her > "final" citizenship... > > Jose > From books at bofh.com Wed Oct 19 08:19:23 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:19:23 -0700 Subject: Sethra's House(s) In-Reply-To: References: <9056e05e7155d98724793c9396ee7231@ipfw.edu> <435652CC.1040802@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051019151923.GA11027@bofh.com> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 10:17:20AM -0400, Rebecca Harbison wrote: > It's also possible that considering Sethra's great age, she was born > before the social stigma of being a half-breed were fully developed. > So, by the time Dragons and Dzur were rejecting half-breeds, Sethra > was already established as a member of both. I seem to recall she was born where there were 31 (or whatever number of no significance it was) tribes. In other words, the tribes hadn't coaelesced into the forms they are now, and so she would be "Grandmothered" in because her (parents?) were also not of a defined tribe. Just my thoughts. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and compelling reason why we observe daylight savings time." - Dave Barry From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Oct 19 08:53:12 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <4356534C.8010608@earthlink.net> References: <4356534C.8010608@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Jose Marquez wrote: > Carla Hunt wrote: > >i thought morrolan entered the paths of the dead with blackwand? > > > He wasn't dead when he did it, and Kieron was; chances are that when he > dies, he won't get to take a Great Weapon with him, as it'll still be > needed outside the Paths... This is why I found it unlikely that Sethra would have allowed M to go on what was apparently a suicide mission with Vlad - see the archives. Notethat SKZB found this objection objectionable. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 19 12:30:50 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:30:50 -0700 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >This is why I found it unlikely that Sethra would have allowed M to go >on what was apparently a suicide mission with Vlad - see the archives. >Notethat SKZB found this objection objectionable. Short of imprisonment, there's very little Sethra could have done to stop Morollan once his mind was made up. That's the sort of fellow he is. Note also that there was no guarantee that Vlad would be released by the Lords of Judgement and several reasons to believe that they would NOT release Morollan. As far as anyone but Vlad knew (and as he later learned) it WAS a suicide mission for Morollan. He simply considered the goal worthy of giving his life for. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Oct 19 13:08:04 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > >This is why I found it unlikely that Sethra would have allowed M to go > >on what was apparently a suicide mission with Vlad - see the archives. > >Notethat SKZB found this objection objectionable. > > Short of imprisonment, there's very little Sethra could have done to stop > Morollan once his mind was made up. That's the sort of fellow he is. We're talking about Sethra though. > Note also that there was no guarantee that Vlad would be released by the > Lords of Judgement and several reasons to believe that they would NOT > release Morollan. As far as anyone but Vlad knew (and as he later > learned) it WAS a suicide mission for Morollan. He simply considered the > goal worthy of giving his life for. Well, exactly my point. In the snippage we were discussing Blackwand. M has his talents, but he's not a battalion-in-a-stick as it were. My earlier contention (which I repeat was not well-received by the Author) was that M should have left B or been prevented from going. From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 19 13:30:30 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:30:30 +0000 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: <4356534C.8010608@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: Jose Marquez To: Dragaera Subject: Re: Allam, and Communism Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:08:12 -0400 >> > >i thought morrolan entered the paths of the dead with blackwand? > He wasn't dead when he did it, and Kieron was; chances are that when he dies, he won't get to take a Great Weapon with him, as it'll still be needed outside the Paths... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. I think that depends on who kills him in the end, and who dumps him over the falls. I would imagine Morrolan will pass Blackwand on in time. Jeff From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 19 13:43:53 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:43:53 -0700 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >We're talking about Sethra though. Sethra is many things, but she's not omnipotent. Moreover, Morollan isn't the sort who could be swayed by anything more than words. If Sethra had somehow decided that the situation called for Morollan to be disabled for his own good, Morollan would have fought back with all of the considerable power at his disposal. What good to save the Great Weapon if it's wielder is destroyed or antagonized into your enemy in the process? >Well, exactly my point. In the snippage we were discussing Blackwand. >M has his talents, but he's not a battalion-in-a-stick as it were. My >earlier contention (which I repeat was not well-received by the Author) >was that M should have left B or been prevented from going. Firstly, you can't talk about about Blackwand without talking about Morollan. The two are "married" in a very real sense. Where one goes, the other goes. Barritt is the only person we've ever known to separate himself from a Great Weapon and we don't know the circumstances that led up his camoflage of Pathfinder and his subsequent death. To the left, you're putting a lot more emphasis on the Great Weapons than any of the "players" in the divine game are. The Great Weapons are tools, and dangerous ones but nothing more than that. While it's true that Verra seems to be acquiring a collection of Great Weapons in her service, the other Lords of Judgement have not been shown to be either concerned nor encouraged by that fact. Losing one to the Paths shouldn't be something that would particularly bother them. Great Weapons come and go all the time from the larger historical perspective. As for Sethra, as the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain and wielder of Iceflame she has a lot of responsibilities, but none of those are the sort that require her to be the caretaker of the Great Weapons. In fact, while we see Sethra's role as front-line protector of the world to be very important, it's very clear that Verra and possibly the other Lords of Judgement as well think of her as a small fry and maybe even a bit presumptious. Sethra works in the mortal realm and her concerns are those of the mortal realm. There's no indication anywhere that she would feel particularly upset about Blackwand or any other Great Weapon traveling into the Paths, never to return. In other words, Morollan's a big boy and if he wanted to take Blackwand into the Paths then he'd be perfectly entitled to do so. Sethra was more likely to think that having Blackwand along might help him come back out alive in some fashion rather than think that he ought to be restrained in order to preserve a precious resource. From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 19 13:45:20 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:45:20 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4356B060.9060908@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >Well, exactly my point. In the snippage we were discussing Blackwand. >M has his talents, but he's not a battalion-in-a-stick as it were. My >earlier contention (which I repeat was not well-received by the Author) >was that M should have left B or been prevented from going. > > Time and cause & effect are different for gods than they are for people. I've seen several things that lead me to assume that they are willing to accept some things as inevitable. It's not so much as some things aren't worth fighting over - it's that it's senseless to fight over them. Vera can tell Vlad to put that weapon away - but it didn't occur to her to take it away from him. I get the impression that this isn't because she can't - it's because she knew he would have it later. We know that time isn't the same - at least for a certain little girl. We have seen that the gods were the servants of a people whose concepts of time and space were even more different than ours. Also - demons and gods are the same - except that one is controlled and the other sort of isn't. The demon we know best doesn't seem to be bothered by this. Gods are different from people. And their relationship to time makes a big difference. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Oct 19 13:53:45 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >We're talking about Sethra though. > > Sethra is many things, but she's not omnipotent. [...] I doubt she would have set things up in a way that could go so wrong. > > >Well, exactly my point. In the snippage we were discussing Blackwand. > >M has his talents, but he's not a battalion-in-a-stick as it were. My > >earlier contention (which I repeat was not well-received by the Author) > >was that M should have left B or been prevented from going. > > Firstly, you can't talk about about Blackwand without talking about > Morollan. The two are "married" in a very real sense. Where one goes, the > other goes. Barritt is the only person we've ever known to separate himself > from a Great Weapon and we don't know the circumstances that led up his > camoflage of Pathfinder and his subsequent death. Who knows? M doesn't wear B to bed or in the bath; Vlad and Loiosh aren't tied at the hip. Anyway, notice the "or" above - if M couldn't have gone without B, then he shouldn't have gone, or so goes the thesis. > To the left, you're putting a lot more emphasis on the Great Weapons than > any of the "players" in the divine game are. [...] > As for Sethra, as the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain and wielder of Iceflame > she has a lot of responsibilities, but none of those are the sort that > require her to be the caretaker of the Great Weapons. [...] I think the above is inconsistent with _Issola_, the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" to be specific. More generally, M apparently has some fate - he's not in fact easily replaceable. I don't see how Sethra or Verra can allow him to go around just putting his body wherever it seemed like a good idea. V at least should be a jealous god in this respect. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 19 15:04:25 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:04:25 -0700 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >More generally, M apparently has some fate - he's not in fact easily >replaceable. I don't see how Sethra or Verra can allow him to go around >just putting his body wherever it seemed like a good idea. V at least >should be a jealous god in this respect. Considering that Verra is also Barlan's lover and has been Adron's as well, I'd say she probably has fairly loose standards regarding fidelity, especially as concerns mortals. *heh* If Morollan has a destiny of some sort (I'd be interested where this idea came from) then you're presented with the time travel paradox - Is acting on that foreknowledge going to insure that he fulfills his destiny or will it instead interfere with his destiny? Without knowing exactly what his destiny might be or how he gets there, preventing him from doing anything, no matter how foolhardy, may in fact be the exact wrong thing to do. In any case, owners of Great Weapons have a tendency to get into situations that would defeat any normal person and come out of them victorious. That's one of the marks of a Great Weapon, and one of the things that made Morollan and Aliera suspicious that Barritt had been the owner of one. Even if Morollan does have some sort of destiny to fulfill, I'd imagine that Sethra would throw her hands up in the end and just hope that Blackwand could pull him through. The Great Weapons are a piece of heavy artillery on the greater divine battlefield, but they are capricious in that they're wielded by individuals with their own agendas. The loyalty of the Great Weapons is to their owners. Blackwand could give a hang about protecting the world from the Jenoine. The only reason it does so is because Morollan occasionally becomes involved in anti-Jenoine activity. As for Morollan, Blackwand is his Significant Other - his familiar, his sword, his mystically bonded soul-mate. He doesn't spend all of his time thinking "I need to protect this sword so that the world is defended against invasion." Blackwand is not a "resource in the divine battle". The sword is a part of himself and therefore an extension of himself. He bothers about Jenoine only as often as Sethra or Verra make him aware of a need. If he was a bit more selfish or a bit more ill-informed about the nature of the world, he wouldn't be helping to protect the world at all. In other words, the Great Weapons are only as good a tool as the person who wields them. Verra's true talent is not in locating the Great Weapons but in shaping mortals into acceptable tools capable of bearing them in her honor. The weapons themselves would actually be of secondary consequence to that. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Oct 19 15:11:17 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > >More generally, M apparently has some fate - he's not in fact easily > >replaceable. I don't see how Sethra or Verra can allow him to go around > >just putting his body wherever it seemed like a good idea. V at least > >should be a jealous god in this respect. > > Considering that Verra is also Barlan's lover and has been Adron's as well, > I'd say she probably has fairly loose standards regarding fidelity, > especially as concerns mortals. *heh* That was a reference to the Liz Phair song "Jealousy", incidentally. > > If Morollan has a destiny of some sort (I'd be interested where this idea > came from) The (later?) Pirodessy, I suppose, where V talks about M. Something about combining witchcraft, sorcery, elder sorcery - there was some reaction on the list I seem to recall about M's genes in that regard. > He bothers about Jenoine only as often as Sethra or Verra make him > aware of a need. If he was a bit more selfish or a bit more ill-informed > about the nature of the world, he wouldn't be helping to protect the world > at all. Who knows, beside SKZB, if Him? From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Oct 19 15:29:24 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:29:24 -0700 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Who knows, beside SKZB, if Him? Well, we do have at least one example - Whatsisname, the guy Sethra mentions who owns one of the Great Weapons without even realizing what it is. Sethra has investigated him to the extent that she knows what he has, but she apparently has not taken any actions that would either enlighten him or recruit him to the side of the Defenders of Dragaera. Why hasn't she done this? Who knows? On the one hand, there may be something unsuitable about him that causes those in the know to feel the most peace of mind knowing that he'll never use it. (We don't know if he's actually soul bonded to it or not.) On the other, it may simply be that they feel it's not their business. I'm inclined towards this latter view. As long as it's not in the wrong hands (say someone who might attempt to wield it against the Lords of Judgement) then what happens to it is not the concern of anyone but it's owner. If it's soul-bonded then there's not much anyone can do to interfere with it short of annihilating the sword-bearer, anyway. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Oct 19 15:35:13 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > > [PAH] Who knows, beside SKZB, if Him? > > Well, we do have at least one example - Whatsisname [...] > [...] If it's soul-bonded then there's not much anyone can do to > interfere with it short of annihilating the sword-bearer, anyway. I'm guessing Sethra wouldn't have qualms about liberating a GW. Though it's hard to imagine someone soul-bonded to a Morganti blade not knowing that. Anyway, surely a worthy replacement (Khaavren? Piro? Kragar?) could be found if Whatsisname is a doofus. From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 19 17:07:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:07:27 -0600 Subject: Allam, and Communism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4356DFBF.2010406@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >In any case, owners of Great Weapons have a tendency to get into situations >that would defeat any normal person and come out of them victorious. That's >one of the marks of a Great Weapon, and one of the things that made Morollan >and Aliera suspicious that Barritt had been the owner of one. Even if >Morollan does have some sort of destiny to fulfill, I'd imagine that Sethra >would throw her hands up in the end and just hope that Blackwand could pull >him through. > >The Great Weapons are a piece of heavy artillery on the greater divine >battlefield, but they are capricious in that they're wielded by individuals >with their own agendas. The loyalty of the Great Weapons is to their owners. > > Their loyalty is to the owners they want to have. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Oct 19 18:27:02 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:27:02 +0000 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) Message-ID: It is mentioned that it takes a whole hell of a lot to kill the bearer of a great weapon--as evidenced in _Issola_. Morrolan was *dead* but there were still attacks coming from Blackwand--and one can be fairly sure they weren't meant to tickle the Jenoine into lowering their guard. Of course, that might have been the extent of BW's effect, given its previous history vs. Jenoine, but that's beside the point. I think it entirely likely that the blades themselves will protect the bearer's soul--it is, after all, the matter of the simplest necromantic magicks to do so--every necromancer, for whatever reason (practicality given his work material, as opposed to a protection against certain Jhereg assassins) protects their soul "in a box" as we learn in _Athyra_ While this may or may be accurate, it's pretty obviously true in some way or another. However, that box doesn't necessarily protect against Morganti weapons (which interesting implies that the weapons can "trace" a soul's echo from the body to the storage unit, if space is really someting that applies here) because, well, ghosts can't grab Morganti weapons and stab you with them, or nothing would protect against it anyway---unless you had a stonger, sentient Morganti bound to your soul. However, if you *do* manage to get yourself killed, is it the *blade* that fights on, or is it your mind inside the blade directing the blade's power? All of this leads up to my main point: If Sethra wanted to liberate a GW from a user who was unsuitable for whatever purpose, how many armies would she need to bring along? How many GWs would be a part of that army? Would Gods form the unit of irregulars? Can GW's be used against one another (is this a plot device? hint hint)((aside, can Mario kill the wielder of a great weapon? He got the emperor, but was that fluke or plan? And is the Orb comprable to a GW? I ask because it seems that the Orb uses Amophia, whereas it's my pet theory that GWs use Necrophia)) Is it in any way wise to pit a GW against another (fire with fire seemingly the only effective means of pursuing this topic) and is the sheer folly of inviting portable natural disasters to one up each other the reason Sethra isn't going after it? Anyway, you're welcome for another 1/3 baked set of ideas from Jon From amitrunchal at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:28:09 2005 From: amitrunchal at gmail.com (Amit Runchal) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:28:09 -0700 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Based on all this, is it safe to assume that Barritt was never linked to a Great Weapon, even though he possessed one? It seems like he was killed off fairly casually, as mentioned in Yendi if memory serves correctly (and wasn't StY involved in that as well?). Plus, I'm not sure why he would disguise Pathfinder, or if in fact, Pathfinder disguised itself. This also brings up the question that if Barritt wasn't in fact linked to Pathfinder, is it possible for a great weapon to reject a claim of ownership for some reason? Aliera mentions in Dragon that she thought that Pathfinder was searching for her, so maybe the personality of the Great Weapon is a bit more sentient than I previously thought. On Oct 19, 2005, at 6:27 PM, J C wrote: > > > It is mentioned that it takes a whole hell of a lot to kill the > bearer of a great weapon--as evidenced in _Issola_. Morrolan was > *dead* but there were still attacks coming from Blackwand--and one > can be fairly sure they weren't meant to tickle the Jenoine into > lowering their guard. > > Of course, that might have been the extent of BW's effect, given > its previous history vs. Jenoine, but that's beside the point. > > I think it entirely likely that the blades themselves will protect > the bearer's soul--it is, after all, the matter of the simplest > necromantic magicks to do so--every necromancer, for whatever > reason (practicality given his work material, as opposed to a > protection against certain Jhereg assassins) protects their soul > "in a box" as we learn in _Athyra_ > > While this may or may be accurate, it's pretty obviously true in > some way or another. However, that box doesn't necessarily protect > against Morganti weapons (which interesting implies that the > weapons can "trace" a soul's echo from the body to the storage > unit, if space is really someting that applies here) because, well, > ghosts can't grab Morganti weapons and stab you with them, or > nothing would protect against it anyway---unless you had a stonger, > sentient Morganti bound to your soul. > > However, if you *do* manage to get yourself killed, is it the > *blade* that fights on, or is it your mind inside the blade > directing the blade's power? > > All of this leads up to my main point: > > If Sethra wanted to liberate a GW from a user who was unsuitable > for whatever purpose, how many armies would she need to bring along? > > How many GWs would be a part of that army? Would Gods form the > unit of irregulars? > > Can GW's be used against one another (is this a plot device? hint > hint)((aside, can Mario kill the wielder of a great weapon? He got > the emperor, but was that fluke or plan? And is the Orb comprable > to a GW? I ask because it seems that the Orb uses Amophia, whereas > it's my pet theory that GWs use Necrophia)) > > Is it in any way wise to pit a GW against another (fire with fire > seemingly the only effective means of pursuing this topic) and is > the sheer folly of inviting portable natural disasters to one up > each other the reason Sethra isn't going after it? > > Anyway, you're welcome for another 1/3 baked set of ideas from > > Jon > > > listinfo/dragaera > From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 23:25:11 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:25:11 -0700 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/19/05, Amit Runchal wrote: > Based on all this, is it safe to assume that Barritt was never linked > to a Great Weapon, even though he possessed one? I think that the most reasonable conclusion we can reach is that Baritt (note sp; I checked it for the wikicity) was able to do some real high-level stuff *despite* not being linked to Pathfinder. One possibility is that Pathfinder was smoothing the way for Baritt so as to manipulate events so that eventually it would come into Aliera's possession - without Baritt knowing why he was so successful. > It seems like he was killed off fairly casually, as mentioned in > Yendi if memory serves correctly (and wasn't StY involved in that as well?). > Plus, I'm not sure why he would disguise Pathfinder, or if in fact, > Pathfinder disguised itself. I am not sure that Pathfinder disguised itself, but I think it reasonable to conclude that Baritt *didn't*. I mean, why would he? If he really had Pathfinder, in its undisguised form, and was linked to it, he would have no reason not to carry it around and show it off. >Aliera mentions in Dragon that she thought that Pathfinder was searching for her > Incidentally, a wayward thought: That the Morganti sword that Crinofenarr had in TPG was the same Morganti greatsword that was disguising Pathfinder. Note that this sword's return to the Empire from the East coincided with Aliera's birth... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Oct 19 23:35:50 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > One possibility is that Pathfinder was smoothing the way for Baritt so > as to manipulate events so that eventually it would come into Aliera's > possession - without Baritt knowing why he was so successful. Nice idea, though it would be surprising for Baritt not to notice - he comes across the sword, and all of a sudden it's oh what a beautiful morning. For that matter why stop at B, why not have P manipulating everybody? It's sort of like the hero in that first Xanth book whose talent is more or less to have everything go his way. > I am not sure that Pathfinder disguised itself, but I think it > reasonable to conclude that Baritt *didn't*. I mean, why would he? > If he really had Pathfinder, in its undisguised form, and was linked > to it, he would have no reason not to carry it around and show it off. Assuming he wasn't linked, the sword would be a serious temptation to anyone interested in either attempting a link or just having the thing. And by not advertising P he gets to wow the babes and mystify his enemies. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 01:24:26 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:24:26 -0400 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vlad can't use a Dragaeran greatsword due to weight and strength issues, so I assume Crinofenarr cannot wield a greatsword either. On 10/20/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 10/19/05, Amit Runchal wrote: > > Based on all this, is it safe to assume that Barritt was never linked > > to a Great Weapon, even though he possessed one? > > I think that the most reasonable conclusion we can reach is that > Baritt (note sp; I checked it for the wikicity) was able to do some > real high-level stuff *despite* not being linked to Pathfinder. > > One possibility is that Pathfinder was smoothing the way for Baritt so > as to manipulate events so that eventually it would come into Aliera's > possession - without Baritt knowing why he was so successful. > > > It seems like he was killed off fairly casually, as mentioned in > > Yendi if memory serves correctly (and wasn't StY involved in that as > well?). > > Plus, I'm not sure why he would disguise Pathfinder, or if in fact, > > Pathfinder disguised itself. > > I am not sure that Pathfinder disguised itself, but I think it > reasonable to conclude that Baritt *didn't*. I mean, why would he? > If he really had Pathfinder, in its undisguised form, and was linked > to it, he would have no reason not to carry it around and show it off. > > >Aliera mentions in Dragon that she thought that Pathfinder was > searching for her > > > > Incidentally, a wayward thought: That the Morganti sword that > Crinofenarr had in TPG was the same Morganti greatsword that was > disguising Pathfinder. Note that this sword's return to the Empire > from the East coincided with Aliera's birth... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051020/eed57b3e/attachment.html From scs at di.org Thu Oct 20 05:17:33 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:17:33 -0400 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051020121733.GA2893@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 08:28:09PM -0700, Amit Runchal wrote: > Based on all this, is it safe to assume that Barritt was never linked > to a Great Weapon, even though he possessed one? It seems like he was > killed off fairly casually, as mentioned in Yendi if memory serves > correctly (and wasn't StY involved in that as well?). Plus, I'm not > sure why he would disguise Pathfinder, or if in fact, Pathfinder > disguised itself. I don't think Barrit disguised Pathfinder, or even knew what the disguised Pathfinder was. He just knew there was something special about the thing, and was trying to figure it out. So IMHO there is clearly no link. As a loose bit of textual evidence for this, note that most folks recognize great weapons as being different from the 'run of the mill' Morganti weapons. Vlad, who's been exposed to them more than most, even recognizes their distinct personalities. If I had to put a semi-spoiler fine point on it, I'd say that Morganti weapons are semi-sentient, but Great Weapons also have souls. In any case, since Barrits long exposure to the disguised Pathfinder never let him figure out exactly what he had, odds are good that Pathfinders disguise was something that obscured both its physical and personality features. And, he was killed off without the effort one would normally have to expend for a GW holder. > This also brings up the question that if Barritt wasn't in fact > linked to Pathfinder, is it possible for a great weapon to reject a > claim of ownership for some reason? Aliera mentions in Dragon that > she thought that Pathfinder was searching for her, so maybe the > personality of the Great Weapon is a bit more sentient than I > previously thought. We have seen three cases where a GW bonds with it's owner. The details of Paarfi's description of Morrolan and Blackwand are not at all reliable, as he probably dramatizing something he heard third- or fifth-hand. In particular, the physical handling description is useless. Vlads description of he and Godslayer are probably atypical because Godslayer becomes a GW while he is holding it, and Vlad participates actively in the process of assembly. Thus it's clearly not the same as someone finding a pre-existing GW. And the description of Aliera and Pathfinder seems relatively reliable, but we see it only from the viewpoint of the rather-busy Vlad, and it's rather cursory. So all in all, we have no textual evidence to say that there's anything consistant about the situation - even from owner to owner within the same weapon. Blackwand may happily come into possession of the first person to hold it while Pathfinder may hide itself until the right person comes along (we know both have had previous owners). And Iceflame may still be in the hands of it's original owner. Thus Steve can do whatever he pleases, because there's no visible pattern. He can create rules if needed, or simply never bother to explain it at all. Hey, here's a future speculation/idea (feel free to rip me off, Steve): There have been more than clear statements that Vlad is being trained for something. We know Sethra was returned undead because she had not yet completed her purpose, and IMHO she's more than ready to lay down and be done with it. Steve seems to be building towards an overall long-term plot, which IMHO will involve either the removal of the Gods or the Jenoine or both from Dragaera. The obvious conclusion is that Vlads being trained to be a key piece in the process. We also know that GWs, as Great as they are, can be resisted by a prepared Jenoine (and perhaps a prepared God?) We also know that Steve likes to have the best-laid plans go a-gley, causing Vlad to improvise. To permanantly seal off/dispose of either the Jenoine or the Gods or both will require something unprecedented. Like, say, Sethra Lavode being killed in battle. One of the Jenoine picks up Iceflame, kills Verra. Vlad kills the Jenoine as it's standing there with Verra impaled. Verra falls, the Jenoine falls, Vlad picks up Iceflame, which now has three souls: it's original, Verras, and the Jenoines. Not to mention he still holds Godslayer. A doubly unprecedented situation has now arisen. Hijinks ensue. -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From books at bofh.com Thu Oct 20 08:41:11 2005 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:41:11 -0700 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051020154111.GA21005@bofh.com> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:27:02AM +0000, J C wrote: > If Sethra wanted to liberate a GW from a user who was unsuitable for > whatever purpose, how many armies would she need to bring along? None. She could probably do it herself. If she didn't want to take the risk, she could contract it out to a 2 person team pretty easily. Remember that Morollan would have been out for the count with the Jherg killed him and prevented revivication. Sethra implies bad things would have happened to the sorcerer, but you'll notice they still had to really work to make it so that he didn't make the trip down the Paths. I think the same thing could be argued for Barritt, but doesn't really matter. -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion." - Superintended Chalmers (The Simpsons, Episode 100) From chittom at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 08:55:58 2005 From: chittom at gmail.com (Carson Chittom) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:55:58 -0500 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4357BE0E.1080002@gmail.com> Amit Runchal wrote: > Based on all this, is it safe to assume that Barritt was never linked > to a Great Weapon, even though he possessed one? It seems like he was > killed off fairly casually, as mentioned in Yendi if memory serves > correctly (and wasn't StY involved in that as well?). Plus, I'm not > sure why he would disguise Pathfinder, or if in fact, Pathfinder > disguised itself. I'm not so sure it's safe to assume that. As we're all aware, "No matter how subtle a wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will severely cramp his style." From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Oct 20 09:34:39 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:34:39 -0700 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20051020154111.GA21005@bofh.com> Message-ID: >None. She could probably do it herself. If she didn't want to >take the risk, she could contract it out to a 2 person team pretty >easily. I'm still unconvinced that Sethra would ever do anything to "liberate" a Great Weapon. Her interest in knowing where they are is the same sort of interest you'd show if you lived with a risk of invasion, there were automatic rifles in the neighborhood, and you and your next-door neighbor each had one. If you found out your neighbor a block over had one too, you'd make a note of it but you wouldn't pound on his door and demand that he give it to you so you can reapportion it to someone "more appropriate". However, if the invasion came it might be totally appropriate to show up at his door with a case of cartridges and tell him "fall out, soldier!" despite his protestations that the gun is intended purely as a wall trophy. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Oct 20 09:47:31 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > I'm still unconvinced that Sethra would ever do anything to "liberate" a > Great Weapon. Her interest in knowing where they are is the same sort of > interest you'd show if you lived with a risk of invasion, there were > automatic rifles in the neighborhood There's the (still mysterious) bonding issue; plus I don't think one can pick up an M16 with mini-nuclear rounds and the ability to do NYT crossword puzzles while unicycling, and just blast away at an angry J. From shawnb at stanford.edu Thu Oct 20 10:38:48 2005 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:38:48 -0700 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510201739.j9KHcmVx032765@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:36 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) > > > > On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I am not sure that Pathfinder disguised itself, but I think it > > reasonable to conclude that Baritt *didn't*. I mean, why would he? > > If he really had Pathfinder, in its undisguised form, and > was linked > > to it, he would have no reason not to carry it around and > show it off. > Philip Hart wrote: > Assuming he wasn't linked, the sword would be a serious > temptation to anyone interested in either attempting a link > or just having the thing. > And by not advertising P he gets to wow the babes and mystify > his enemies. I hereby speculate that 'twas Baritt who disguised the sword, but only toward the end of his life. He managed to keep his possession of it secret through non-disguised means for most of the time, so he could also make us of it, and somehow that Dragonlord from "Dragon" found out he had it. StY also knew he had it (speculation) and when Baritt was killed off StY had planned to make a grab for it as a bonus. However, Baritt made preparations so that even though his now-enemies (formerly conspirators) could have him killed (he too was probably aware of the saying: no matter how subtle the wizard...) he wanted to deny them Pathfinder. But StY only wanted Pathfinder so long as Kieron's Greatsword was not in the picture, so even though she picks Pathfinder up (and thereby succeeds in obtaining her bonus for Baritt's death) it is after Aliera has returned with Kieron's sword, which she REALLY wants. And, once she has Pathfinder, she realizes that IT does not want HER, giving her more motivation to make an exchange. Ta! Shawn From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 11:53:36 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:53:36 -0600 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20051020121733.GA2893@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20051020121733.GA2893@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510201153q1892c3b6i4e6054cad4e731c6@mail.gmail.com> Some minor quibbles. On 10/20/05, Steve Simmons wrote: > > same weapon. Blackwand may happily come into possession of the first > person to hold it while Pathfinder may hide itself until the right person > comes along (we know both have had previous owners). > We do? I'm focusing on "know" as opposed to "assume." > We also know that GWs, as Great as they are, can be resisted by a > prepared Jenoine (and perhaps a prepared God?) Not without access to amorphia. Or at least, it's the fact that the Jenoine blocked a Great Weapon attack (or actually two) that tips Aliera off to the fact that there's something weird going on with the Jenoine--in fact she appears to think it should have been "obvious" that they were using amorphia, although part of that is Aliera kicking herself. > To permanantly seal off/dispose of either the Jenoine or the Gods or > both will require something unprecedented. Like, say, Sethra Lavode > being killed in battle. One of the Jenoine picks up Iceflame, kills > Verra. Why would a Jenoine need a GW to kill Verra? They have some pretty capable tools of their own. Vlad kills the Jenoine as it's standing there with Verra > impaled. Verra falls, the Jenoine falls, Vlad picks up Iceflame, > which now has three souls: it's original, Verras, and the Jenoines. > Not to mention he still holds Godslayer. A doubly unprecedented > situation has now arisen. Hijinks ensue. I'm not sure what you mean about Iceflame now "having" three souls. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Oct 20 20:15:55 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:15:55 EDT Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) Message-ID: On Baritt, remember he said this when he met Aliera: "Baritt said, 'And you?' 'I am Aliera.' His eyes widened. 'Indeed? Well, this is indeed, droll. And you are trying to return to living lands, are you not? Well, then, I crave a favor. If you succeed, and I am still alive, don't visit me. I don't think I could stand it." Aliera said, 'My Lord, we are--' 'Yes, I know. I cannot help you. There is no way out except the one you know. Any purple robe can guide you back there. I am sorry.' And he did actually seem to be sorry, too, but he was looking at Aliera as he said it. Aliera scowled and her nostrils flared. She said, 'Very well, then,' and we left Baritt standing there." Could Baritt have been in love with Aliera too? Was he searching for her for years? Only to find her when he is dead and she alive again. Could he have been collecting Morganti weapons in an effort to find Pathfinder to find her. Could Baritt have been one of the others that helped in the search for Aliera's soul using Pathfinder without Sethra knowing how he did it. Then again, maybe Baritt or someone else hid Pathfinder in a Great Sword to keep it from actively searching for Aliera itself. Sort of like the idea that Spellbreaker would keep trying to find Dolivar and if it wasn't being blocked somehow. Remember Spellbreaker in Issola--"slithered over to you, and, uh, it kind of crawled up your arm". From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Oct 21 07:05:43 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:05:43 -0700 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <147ee01c5d648$8a547f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Y'know, that's interesting. In the past I'd always read that exchange as Baritt being lecherous and sardonic at the same time. I'd never really caught on to the fact that he recognized her name. If he knew that Pathfinder was attempting to find Aliera, then it would indeed be "droll" to encounter her as he did. Even his request "Don't visit me, I don't think my heart could take it" looks more like "Don't come anywhere near where my Great Weapon might find you." But then Vlad says "and he did actually seem to be sorry, too", which doesn't really jibe with someone who would have been deliberately hiding Pathfinder from the object of its desire. Curioser and curioser. From scs at di.org Fri Oct 21 07:42:27 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:42:27 -0400 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510201153q1892c3b6i4e6054cad4e731c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051020121733.GA2893@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <2ddbda5f0510201153q1892c3b6i4e6054cad4e731c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051021144227.GA12437@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 12:53:36PM -0600, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > Some minor quibbles. Sounds good. :-) > On 10/20/05, Steve Simmons wrote: > > same weapon. Blackwand may happily come into possession of the first > > person to hold it while Pathfinder may hide itself until the right person > > comes along (we know both have had previous owners). > We do? I'm focusing on "know" as opposed to "assume." In the strict sense of know, ie, stated textual evidence of a previous owner I agree. But there's a fairly good set of things that lead me to think that way. We've seen two cases of a GW come into someones hands thru Vlads eyes, one reported nth-hand by Paarfi. In all three cases, nobody seemed to be terribly surprised about a GW adopting an owner. There was certainly a great deal of surprise about Godslayer re-integrating, but I think the only suprise about Vlad being the wielder was that he's an Easterner. If we're to assume that GWs did *not* have a previous owner, then we're faced with the prospect that at least 3 of them have sat idle since their creation - Blackwand, Godslayer, and Pathfinder. They were made to be used, and I don't think even the Serioli are that patient. And there seems to be some implication that they're ancient. What's the odds on three of them suddenly adopting owners in a few centuries? Or maybe even four, given the lack of detail Sethra gives about the other weapon she knows to be in someone's hands? There's probably more detail available on this in the last chapter or two of Issola when Sethra discusses GWs with Vlad. > > We also know that GWs, as Great as they are, can be resisted by a > > prepared Jenoine (and perhaps a prepared God?) > Not without access to amorphia . . . Good point. Of course, the Gods have that access. > > To permanantly seal off/dispose of either the Jenoine or the Gods or > > both will require something unprecedented. Like, say, Sethra Lavode > > being killed in battle. One of the Jenoine picks up Iceflame, kills > > Verra. > Why would a Jenoine need a GW to kill Verra? They have some pretty capable > tools of their own. Clearly the Jenoine know *something* about the GWs; they were able to prepare a resistance to Pathfinder et al. If they suddenly see one idle, they'd try it - even if all they know is that it's a helluva weapon. > > Vlad kills the Jenoine as it's standing there with Verra > > impaled. Verra falls, the Jenoine falls, Vlad picks up Iceflame, > > which now has three souls: it's original, Verras, and the Jenoines. > > Not to mention he still holds Godslayer. A doubly unprecedented > > situation has now arisen. Hijinks ensue. > I'm not sure what you mean about Iceflame now "having" three souls. Sorry, I wasn't clear - and do remember, this is all just wild speculation on my part. I'm assuming Iceflame has a soul. Sethra is killed, Iceflame trys to grab her soul (maybe vampires can't be revivified?) to protect her. The Jenoine stabs Verra with Iceflame. Iceflame attempts to consume her soul, but Sethra holds it back. Iceflame now had three souls, one permanant, two guests. Vlad picks up Iceflame. Hijinks ensue. :-) -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Oct 21 07:51:43 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:51:43 -0400 Subject: Other Great Weapon (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>FRIEDA2133 wrote on 10/20/2005 11:15:55 PM: >> On Baritt, remember he said this when he met Aliera: >> >> "Baritt said, 'And you?' >> 'I am Aliera.' >> His eyes widened. 'Indeed? Well, this is indeed, droll. >> And you are trying to return to living lands, are you not? >> Well, then, I crave a favor. If you succeed, and I am still >> alive, don't visit me. I don't think I could stand it." >> Aliera said, 'My Lord, we are--' >> 'Yes, I know. I cannot help you. There is no way out >> except the one you know. Any purple robe can guide you back >> there. I am sorry.' >> And he did actually seem to be sorry, too, but he was >> looking at Aliera as he said it. >> Aliera scowled and her nostrils flared. She said, >> 'Very well, then,' and we left Baritt standing there." >> >> Could Baritt have been in love with Aliera too? Was he >> searching for her for years? Only to find her when he is >> dead and she alive again. Could he have been collecting >> Morganti weapons in an effort to find Pathfinder to find her. >> Could Baritt have been one of the others that helped in the >> search for Aliera's soul using Pathfinder without Sethra >> knowing how he did it. >> >> Then again, maybe Baritt or someone else hid Pathfinder in >> a Great Sword to keep it from actively searching for Aliera >> itself. Sort of like the idea that Spellbreaker would keep >> trying to find Dolivar and if it wasn't being blocked somehow. >> Remember Spellbreaker in Issola--"slithered over to you, and, >> uh, it kind of crawled up your arm". >> >Scott Schultz wrote on 10/21/2005 10:05:43 AM: > Y'know, that's interesting. In the past I'd always read that exchange as > Baritt being lecherous and sardonic at the same time. I'd never really > caught on to the fact that he recognized her name. If he knew that > Pathfinder was attempting to find Aliera, then it would indeed be "droll" to > encounter her as he did. Even his request "Don't visit me, I don't think my > heart could take it" looks more like "Don't come anywhere near where my > Great Weapon might find you." > > But then Vlad says "and he did actually seem to be sorry, too", which > doesn't really jibe with someone who would have been deliberately hiding > Pathfinder from the object of its desire. Curioser and curioser. > i so wish i had my books with me right now so i could look a few things up, but i always took this as an allusion to the whole norathar/dragon heir conspiracy that baritt was a part of before it got him killed. *please* correct me if i'm wrong, it's really been a while since i read the books so some details are fuzzy, but didn't they go through a lot of trouble to get a certain dragon heir out of the way? and might not aliera reappearing cause a problem with those plans? i always thought it would be the irony that would give him the heart attack - all that work for nothing. (and nobody yell at me if i used irony wrong, i've never quite the hang of the word) From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Oct 24 20:19:01 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:19:01 EDT Subject: Joss Whedon knows "Who?" Message-ID: <1e2.4712f5b0.308efe25@aol.com> On October 24 Joss Whedon wrote on his website http://whedonesque.com/ : "Steven Brust Has Written a Firefly Novel. The Well-known SF/F author has written an original novel set in the 'Verse which has yet to be accepted for publication. On his 10/1/2005 blog entry, he has the following to say about completing a rough draft: "As of this afternoon, the first draft of the Firefly novel (tentatively titled: My Own Kind of Freedom) is finished. This one is going to take a lot of revision, as I was (as usual) making it up as I went, and now that I know what happens, it's got to be set up right. But I'm pleased with having finished, and pleased with the book." I don't know if he has a deal with the official people, or if he's going to shop it to them, but this is interesting. I'm not familiar with his work, but I've heard good things about it and from some of his other entries, he's a fan of the verse. If the verse is going to continue in any form, I'm hoping it'll be quality work. (Maybe somebody could lure Ben Edlund back into the comics field...) " On dragaera.info in response to what Mia McDavid wrote: > What *I* want to know, is has Steve talked to Joss? > Steven Brust wrote on Oct 9 19:49:17 CDT 2005 >Why, yes, in fact I did. I said, "Would you mind signing this for my >daughter, Aliera?" He said, "Certainly," and then he did. Aliera, who >adores Buffy and All Things Josh, was pleased. >To answer the question you may really be asking, to the best of my >knowledge and belief, if someone were to mention my name to him, he'd >say something to the effect of, "Who?" Joss knows "Who?" (or someone answered his "Who?" question) If you are reading this and you do not know about Joss Whedon, do these words or names mean anything to you: Serenity Firefly Buffy Angel The Slayer Go see the Serenity movie before it leaves the big screen...then see it again...buy the Firefly DVDs(or go to a library)...buy the Serenity dvd in December...buy the Steven Brust Firefly novel when (hope) it comes out. I am going to have an easy time shopping for Christmas gifts this year. Wonder if the DVDs will fit in the Christmas stockings. Bye. Linda G. From bryann at bryann.net Mon Oct 24 21:53:48 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:53:48 -0500 Subject: Joss Whedon knows "Who?" In-Reply-To: <1e2.4712f5b0.308efe25@aol.com> Message-ID: <000201c5d920$165d95e0$6501a8c0@dell> > On October 24 Joss Whedon wrote on his website > http://whedonesque.com/ : Not to put a damper on it or anything, but the article appears to have been written by a fan, not Whedon himself. It is attributed to someone who goes by the nickname "dottikin" (though I suppose this could be Whedon--the other articles written by "dottikin" do not suggest this is the case). Still, a meeting of fans can't hurt. Bryan From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 06:47:08 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:47:08 -0600 Subject: Joss Whedon knows "Who?" In-Reply-To: <1e2.4712f5b0.308efe25@aol.com> References: <1e2.4712f5b0.308efe25@aol.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510250647n7341863cj1902d368f42cb595@mail.gmail.com> On 10/24/05, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > > If you are reading this and you do not know about Joss Whedon, do these > words or names mean anything to you: > > Serenity Firefly Buffy Angel The Slayer > Wait, wait, something's coming... an old TV show. Serenity the Buff Angel Slayer? Or maybe her name was Firefly. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From chittom at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 07:11:55 2005 From: chittom at gmail.com (Carson Chittom) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:11:55 -0500 Subject: Joss Whedon knows "Who?" In-Reply-To: <000201c5d920$165d95e0$6501a8c0@dell> References: <000201c5d920$165d95e0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <1130249515.7535.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 23:53 -0500, Bryan Newell wrote: > Not to put a damper on it or anything, but the article appears to have been > written by a fan, not Whedon himself. It is attributed to someone who goes > by the nickname "dottikin" (though I suppose this could be Whedon--the other > articles written by "dottikin" do not suggest this is the case). Indeed. http://whedonesque.com/?read=about says: "WHEDONesque.com is not in any way affiliated with Joss Whedon, Mutant Enemy, Fox, or UPN. This is an independent website, providing a non-profit platform for fans." From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Oct 25 18:46:32 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:46:32 EDT Subject: Joss Whedon knows "Who?" Message-ID: <221.fa02c4.309039f8@aol.com> In response to what I wrote: > On October 24 Joss Whedon wrote on his website > http://whedonesque.com/ : bryann at bryann.net wrote on 10/25/2005 12:54:00 AM >Not to put a damper on it or anything, but the article appears to have been >written by a fan, not Whedon himself. It is attributed to someone who goes >by the nickname "dottikin" (though I suppose this could be Whedon--the other >articles written by "dottikin" do not suggest this is the case). >Still, a meeting of fans can't hurt. Sorry, I was fooled by the "Joss Whedon weblog" at the top and did not read the About. So, I guess Joss may still not know "Who?" Steven Brust is. Hopefully, Steve Brust Firefly/Serenity novel will get published and then Joss will then know "Who?". Bye. Linda G. From bryann at bryann.net Tue Oct 25 20:22:06 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:22:06 -0500 Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: <20051019041505.GB13979@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <000101c5d9dc$716b5820$6501a8c0@dell> Another interesting reference to tsalmoth: Five Hundred Years After, pg 229 - "When they were gone, Grita, her dzur-like eyes narrowed and her hair sleeked back like a veritable tsalmoth, emerged once more from the shadows." Hair sleeked back, running around in mating circles, small paths through the forest, tenacious, "maintains though none knows how"... Bryan From rone at ennui.org Tue Oct 25 20:30:49 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: <000101c5d9dc$716b5820$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20051026033049.37B3426C89@boredom.ennui.org> Bryan Newell writes: Hair sleeked back, running around in mating circles, small paths through the forest, tenacious, "maintains though none knows how"... Tsalmoths are raccoons! rone -- I never noticed the size of my feet `Til i kicked you in the shins From steve.rapaport at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 05:26:41 2005 From: steve.rapaport at gmail.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:26:41 +0200 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem Message-ID: Ok, this has been bugging me for twenty-odd years. I just put it into the Lyorn Records wiki, but I'd like to hear what people think here. Pronouncing "Dzur" The Cycle poem is in trochaic tetrameter (* http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), That is, the lines have four feet, each one is a trochee (STRONG weak), e.g. "PHOEnix SINKS in TO de CAY___" (the last foot is a half-foot in every line) But: this line is an exception: *Dzur stalks and blends with night.* The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is pronounced with TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: "DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ Does anyone think that it's pronounced that way? Or have another way to make that line scan properly? (Other than changing words) -- \Steve From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Oct 27 08:59:43 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Steve Rapaport wrote: > Pronouncing "Dzur" > > The Cycle poem is in trochaic > tetrameter (* > http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), > > But: this line is an exception: > *Dzur stalks and blends with night.* > > The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is pronounced with > TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: > > "DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ Some comments on poetry: Formal poetry is seldom translated without structural or literal compromise. Poetry in meter is seldom written without metrical variation. It is rare to meet an perfectly regular iambic pentameter line, for example, and there are variations so standard that they aren't considered variant any more. Variation is used to avoid monotony and expressivly to indicate important words or evoke whatever the poem is describing at the time. We use an accentual-syllabic system today for the most part, but there are other ways of expressing a poem's meter. Classical meters for example used long and short syllables. Dzur is a very long syllable and might be thought to take up the same time interval as a standard foot. This might be an indication that Dragaeran prosody uses such a system. From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 27 09:53:52 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:53:52 -0600 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43610620.2090505@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >We use an accentual-syllabic system today for the most part, >but there are other ways of expressing a poem's meter. >Classical meters for example used long and short syllables. >Dzur is a very long syllable and might be thought to take up >the same time interval as a standard foot. This might >be an indication that Dragaeran prosody uses such a system. > > Of course translated poetry has some problems in fitting translated words into the original meter. The word "Dzur" appears to be grabbed in whole from the Dragaeran language. But it may be the closest approximation that Steve could come up to how an English speaker would hear some Dragaerans pronouncing that word. Variations within Dragaera are likely larger than variations within American English, and probably even English English. What would be interesting to hear is how a Hungarian speaker would pronounce that word. I suspect it sounds a lot like http://dragaera.info/encyclopedia/data/pg-test/pro-dzur-skzb-20040922-142.mp3 Which isn't a long syllable at all. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 11:21:23 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:21:23 -0700 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm... I always thought that in ordinary speech 'Dzur' was pronounced as a short (one syllable) word, but that in the poem it was stretched into two (dzur-urr). Of course that's just my $.02 James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >From: Steve Rapaport >Reply-To: steve at rapaport.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem >Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:26:41 +0200 > >Ok, this has been bugging me for twenty-odd years. I just put it into the >Lyorn Records wiki, but I'd like to hear what people think here. > >Pronouncing "Dzur" > >The Cycle poem is in trochaic >tetrameter (* >http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), > >That is, the lines have four feet, each one is a trochee (STRONG weak), >e.g. >"PHOEnix SINKS in TO de CAY___" > >(the last foot is a half-foot in every line) > >But: this line is an exception: >*Dzur stalks and blends with night.* > >The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is pronounced with >TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: > >"DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ > > >Does anyone think that it's pronounced that way? Or have another way to >make >that line scan properly? (Other than changing words) >-- >\Steve From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 14:43:08 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:43:08 +0200 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Steve Rapaport wrote: >Pronouncing "Dzur" > >The Cycle poem is in trochaic >tetrameter (* >http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), > >But: this line is an exception: >*Dzur stalks and blends with night.* > >The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is pronounced with >TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: > >"DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ And the cynical explanation is of course the Steven Brust just buggered up his poem. ;) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 27 19:33:08 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:33:08 -0700 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43618DE4.4080809@dreamcafe.com> There are many reasons I hate that poem and wish I'd never written it; you've just mentioned one. "Dzur" is one syllable. The only way to make that line work is with a beat, or a breath, *before* the beginning of the line, which is ugly. Steve Rapaport wrote: > Ok, this has been bugging me for twenty-odd years. I just put it into the > Lyorn Records wiki, but I'd like to hear what people think here. > > Pronouncing "Dzur" > > The Cycle poem is in trochaic > tetrameter (* > http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), > > That is, the lines have four feet, each one is a trochee (STRONG weak), e.g. > "PHOEnix SINKS in TO de CAY___" > > (the last foot is a half-foot in every line) > > But: this line is an exception: > *Dzur stalks and blends with night.* > > The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is pronounced with > TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: > > "DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ > > > Does anyone think that it's pronounced that way? Or have another way to make > that line scan properly? (Other than changing words) > -- > \Steve From rone at ennui.org Thu Oct 27 21:30:05 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: just re-read Dragon... Message-ID: <20051028043005.BFA4526D17@boredom.ennui.org> I think it's been brought up before, but there's a running mistake where Dragaeran animals are written with capital letters, as is done for House members. Confusing at times. There was also a spot (i can't find it now, and /Dragon/ isn't indexed in dragaera.info's book search engine) where "impassible" is used where "impassable" was meant. I would really, really like to have Vlad and Virt e'Terics meet again. /Dragon/ is one book where bouncing back and forth in time (on two different levels) is pulled off successfully. rone -- I never noticed the size of my feet `Til i kicked you in the shins From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 22:21:21 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:21:21 -0700 Subject: just re-read Dragon... In-Reply-To: <20051028043005.BFA4526D17@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20051028043005.BFA4526D17@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 10/27/05, rone wrote: > > There was also a spot (i can't find it now, and /Dragon/ isn't indexed > in dragaera.info's book search engine) where "impassible" is used > where "impassable" was meant. I've been using Amazon's "Search Inside" feature in preference to dragaera.info's booksearch, since Amazon has more of the books indexed, and has fewer problems displaying what I'm trying to find. Just a note. Anyway, Amazon says: [Begin Cite] on Page 168: Beyond it Mount Drift was getting close, and its companions were appearing tall and impassible. Impassible didn't bother me, because I didn't think we were going to pass them [End Cite] Good catch. Huh. I didn't even know what "impassible" means until just now: "incapable of suffering or of experiencing pain; inaccessible to injury". Learn something every day... > I would really, really like to have Vlad and Virt e'Terics meet again. > Oh, I nearly agree. But then, I'd like to see more of lots of characters, including some (such as Loftis) for whom that might be a bit of a problem. From bryann at bryann.net Thu Oct 27 22:31:41 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:31:41 -0500 Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: <000101c5d9dc$716b5820$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <000301c5db80$e050dda0$6501a8c0@dell> David, Some more House notes... are you looking for just personality traits, or for physical traits as well? I've included some of the latter; if they are unwanted, let me know. Bryan the enthusiasm of a Tiassa, the courage of a Dzur, the subtlety of a Yendi, the ferocity of a Dragon, and the thoroughness of a Lyorn - FHYA 243 reason like an Athyra - FHYA 267 courage of a Dragonlord - FHYA 279 the heroism of the Dzur, the ferocity of the Dragon, the cleverness of the Yendi, the nobility of the Lyorn, ... the enthusiasm of the Tiassa ... one point of similarity that the Tiassa share with the Dragon and the Dzur: their inability to keep their thoughts from being fully and immediately revealed on their countenances. - POTD, 97 [Roanna] had the ears of her house [Tiassa]--that is, more pointed that those of an Athyra, but less so than those of a Dzur. - POTD, 143 as serious as an Iorich - POTD, 181 one might at first think of [Sethra] as a Dzurlord from the slant to her eyes and the point to her ears; yet a closer inspection would reveal the bridged nose and high cheekbones characteristic of the House of the Dragon. - POTD, 186 with the narrow eyes and thin lips typical of a Tiassa - POTD, 252 It's much too late to go digging up page numbers, but Tiassa appear to be innately prescient to one degree or another. Daro has premonitions about Khaavren being in danger in FHYA that prove to be correct, both of them at the end feel certain that if the other had died, they would have "known it" somehow, the Tiassa pyrologist in POTD has visions that sometimes prove true. Also, in the very beginning of Teckla, Vlad visits an oracle who is a Tiassa. From steve.rapaport at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 05:10:10 2005 From: steve.rapaport at gmail.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:10:10 +0200 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: <43618DE4.4080809@dreamcafe.com> References: <43618DE4.4080809@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: Well, that settles my question I suppose. Thanks, Steve. May I include your response in the wikicities discussion? Steve the Younger On 10/28/05, Steven Brust wrote: > > There are many reasons I hate that poem and wish I'd never written it; > you've just mentioned one. "Dzur" is one syllable. The only way to > make that line work is with a beat, or a breath, *before* the beginning > of the line, which is ugly. > > Steve Rapaport wrote: > > Ok, this has been bugging me for twenty-odd years. I just put it into > the > > Lyorn Records wiki, but I'd like to hear what people think here. > > > > Pronouncing "Dzur" > > > > The Cycle poem is in > trochaic > > tetrameter (* > > http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), > > > > That is, the lines have four feet, each one is a trochee (STRONG weak), > e.g. > > "PHOEnix SINKS in TO de CAY___" > > > > (the last foot is a half-foot in every line) > > > > But: this line is an exception: > > *Dzur stalks and blends with night.* > > > > The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is pronounced > with > > TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: > > > > "DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ > > > > > > Does anyone think that it's pronounced that way? Or have another way to > make > > that line scan properly? (Other than changing words) > > -- > > \Steve > > -- \Steve From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Oct 28 05:18:12 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 05:18:12 -0700 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: References: <43618DE4.4080809@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <43621704.20907@dreamcafe.com> Sure. Steve Rapaport wrote: > Well, that settles my question I suppose. Thanks, Steve. > > May I include your response in the wikicities discussion? > > Steve the Younger > > On 10/28/05, *Steven Brust* > wrote: > > There are many reasons I hate that poem and wish I'd never written it; > you've just mentioned one. "Dzur" is one syllable. The only way to > make that line work is with a beat, or a breath, *before* the beginning > of the line, which is ugly. > > Steve Rapaport wrote: > > Ok, this has been bugging me for twenty-odd years. I just put it > into the > > Lyorn Records wiki, but I'd like to hear what people think here. > > > > Pronouncing "Dzur" > > > > The Cycle poem is in > trochaic > > tetrameter < http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html> (* > > http://tinablue.homestead.com/Prosody2meter.html*), > > > > That is, the lines have four feet, each one is a trochee (STRONG > weak), e.g. > > "PHOEnix SINKS in TO de CAY___" > > > > (the last foot is a half-foot in every line) > > > > But: this line is an exception: > > *Dzur stalks and blends with night.* > > > > The only way the poem scans (that I can see) is if Dzur is > pronounced with > > TWO syllables, with the first one strongest, as in: > > > > "DEE-zur" STALKS and BLENDS with NIGHT ____ > > > > > > Does anyone think that it's pronounced that way? Or have another > way to make > > that line scan properly? (Other than changing words) > > -- > > \Steve > > Dragaera at dragaera.info > > > > > -- > \Steve From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Oct 28 07:34:04 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:34:04 -0700 Subject: just re-read Dragon... Message-ID: On 10/27/05, rone wrote: >> There was also a spot (i can't find it now, and /Dragon/ isn't indexed >> in dragaera.info's book search engine) where "impassible" is used >> where "impassable" was meant. > >Good catch. > >Huh. I didn't even know what "impassible" means until just now: >"incapable of suffering or of experiencing pain; inaccessible to >injury". Learn something every day... I'd just like to point out that I find it quite plausible that a mountain would be incapable of experiencing pain. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 28 08:25:03 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:25:03 -0700 Subject: just re-read Dragon... References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 7:34 AM Subject: Re: just re-read Dragon... > On 10/27/05, rone wrote: > > > >> There was also a spot (i can't find it now, and /Dragon/ isn't indexed > >> in dragaera.info's book search engine) where "impassible" is used > >> where "impassable" was meant. > > > >Good catch. > > > >Huh. I didn't even know what "impassible" means until just now: > >"incapable of suffering or of experiencing pain; inaccessible to > >injury". Learn something every day... > > I'd just like to point out that I find it quite plausible that a mountain > would be incapable of experiencing pain. > > > > Majikjon I wouldn't be surprised if Dzur Mountain does. . . . or at least Sethra can feel for Dzur Mountain. Jeff From st.shafer at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 08:36:20 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:36:20 -0700 Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: <000301c5db80$e050dda0$6501a8c0@dell> References: <000101c5d9dc$716b5820$6501a8c0@dell> <000301c5db80$e050dda0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <77369c850510280836l6721f339s63f80caabd5dd222@mail.gmail.com> >the Tiassa pyrologist in POTD has visions that sometimes prove >true. I thought that the Tiassa pyrologist in POTD was sent by Pel to rouse his old friend out of his sad, sorry state...?!?! Were his visions a real thing or made up as a way to get the old Tiassa to get into shape? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Oct 28 08:40:43 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:40:43 -0700 Subject: House characteristics Message-ID: >>the Tiassa pyrologist in POTD has visions that sometimes prove >>true. > >I thought that the Tiassa pyrologist in POTD was sent by Pel to rouse his >old friend out of his sad, sorry state...?!?! Were his visions a real thing >or made up as a way to get the old Tiassa to get into shape? Almost. Pel paid a witch to make sure that Tevna saw the visions in this particular case; but Tevna said that he is not a stranger to precognative visions. Which is why neither Tevna nor Khaavren have any suspicion that Pel is involved. That guy's a Yendi, all right. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Oct 28 08:49:27 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:49:27 -0700 Subject: House characteristics In-Reply-To: <77369c850510280836l6721f339s63f80caabd5dd222@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3eafb01c5dbd7$2d4c8bd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I thought that the Tiassa pyrologist in POTD was sent by Pel to rouse his >old friend out of his sad, sorry state...?!?! Were his visions a real thing >or made up as a way to get the old Tiassa to get into shape? The visions in general were a real thing. The particular vision that brought the pyrologist to Khaavren was a setup, which just goes to show how well Pel understands Khaavren. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 09:23:45 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:23:45 -0600 Subject: just re-read Dragon... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510280923q2b980978uf212b6a73535fe57@mail.gmail.com> On 10/28/05, Jeff G. wrote: > > I wouldn't be surprised if Dzur Mountain does. . . . or at least Sethra > can > feel for Dzur Mountain. > Sethra? Why not Tukko? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 28 09:41:25 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:41:25 -0700 Subject: just re-read Dragon... References: <2ddbda5f0510280923q2b980978uf212b6a73535fe57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Maximilian Wilson To: Jeff G. Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 9:23 AM Subject: Re: just re-read Dragon... On 10/28/05, Jeff G. wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if Dzur Mountain does. . . . or at least Sethra can feel for Dzur Mountain. Sethra? Why not Tukko? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. Because Tukko has never mentioned being part of Dzur Mt, and Sethra has. Something about their relationship tickles my memory, but I haven't been able to place it. If he was a great deal more arrogant and condescending, I would compare it to Chuin and Remo Williams, especially after the discussion about reading in SL. On yet another tangent, I noticed the other day that the book being discussed (Book of Seven Wizards?) was also in the library of Savns master in Aythra. Interesting. . . Jeff From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Fri Oct 28 09:51:57 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:51:57 -0700 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory Message-ID: <20051028165157.5770.qmail@server261.com> Does anyone recall if there are detailed phsyical descriptions of Adron anywhere? Specifically, in FHYA, does Paarfi ever compare Adron's and Aliera's appearances? I found a reference in Phoenix Guards which mentiones that he had brown hair, blue eyes, and a very sharp chin, but that's all. I've come up with another theory for how Aliera became the accepted Dragon heir despite being half-God: She isn't half-God at all. Verra is her "mother" because she bore her, but genetically, Aliera is in fact a clone of Adron. I know, the different sexes and brown hair seem to disprove this off the bat, but they don't have to. Verra worked with the Jenoine and we know what *they* got up to - Verra herself is presumably a skilled genetecist. If she decided she wanted a blond-haired daughter instead of a brown-haired son, she could easily have made slight modifications to ensure that recessive blond-haired genes would be expressed. Changing the sex would be more difficult but not impossible. (At least if we assume that elfs have the same XX-XY sexual differentation structure as homo sapiens; this is not at all certain. Some mammals have a single X chromosome, or two Xs in all individuals, and differentiate sexes based on the expression of a gene, which would be simple to turn on or off.) All of which leads up to - if she was genetically tested, she'd test as pure E'Kieron, just like her father, so there would be no question of her suitability as Heir. If they were very similar in appearance, that's a point in favor of the theory. - Rook From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Oct 28 10:02:10 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:02:10 -0700 Subject: just re-read Dragon... Message-ID: > On yet another tangent, I noticed the other day that the book being discussed >(Book of Seven Wizards?) was also in the library of Savns master in Aythra. Interesting. . . It's also quoted by Vlad in "Teckla" when he talks about ghosts. See the entry on the wikicity (http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Book_of_the_Seven_Wizards) Majikjon From johne.cook at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 10:06:29 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:06:29 -0500 Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: <43618DE4.4080809@dreamcafe.com> References: <43618DE4.4080809@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: On 10/27/05, Steven Brust wrote: > There are many reasons I hate that poem and wish I'd never written it; > you've just mentioned one. "Dzur" is one syllable. The only way to > make that line work is with a beat, or a breath, *before* the beginning > of the line, which is ugly. I find the poem somewhat charming, the early effort of an emerging author. Its flaws are what endear it to me. Perhaps I'm strange that way, but I suspect I'm hardly unique. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 10:45:18 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:45:18 -0600 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <20051028165157.5770.qmail@server261.com> References: <20051028165157.5770.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510281045l2d4c669bn1b7e0959a2044181@mail.gmail.com> On 10/28/05, Rook wrote: > > I've come up with another theory for how Aliera became the accepted Dragon > heir despite being half-God: She isn't half-God at all. Verra is her > "mother" because she bore her, but genetically, Aliera is in fact a clone of > Adron. As you note, there is in fact no evidence in favor of this theory and a lot of evidence against it--Aliera is unusually short for a Dragaeran, has a different hair color than Adron, and is a different sex; you handwave these inconvenient facts away by invoking Verra's presumed desire to have a short, blond, female clone of Adron for reasons unknown. At that point it becomes questionable whether it's necessary to your theory to have Aliera be a "clone" at all. My Bayesian detectors are screaming; this theory requires that you have a heavy prior-belief investment in Verra being "genetically" unrelated to Aliera. It would probably be simpler to postulate that Verra is somehow a Dragon herself. Not that I think that's necessary, but YMMV. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Fri Oct 28 13:09:00 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:09:00 -0400 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0510281045l2d4c669bn1b7e0959a2044181@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051028165157.5770.qmail@server261.com> <2ddbda5f0510281045l2d4c669bn1b7e0959a2044181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0400, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 10/28/05, Rook wrote: >> >> I've come up with another theory for how Aliera became the accepted >> Dragon >> heir despite being half-God: She isn't half-God at all. Verra is her >> "mother" because she bore her, but genetically, Aliera is in fact a >> clone of >> Adron. > > > As you note, there is in fact no evidence in favor of this theory and a > lot > of evidence against it--Aliera is unusually short for a Dragaeran, has a > different hair color than Adron, and is a different sex; you handwave > these > inconvenient facts away by invoking Verra's presumed desire to have a > short, > blond, female clone of Adron for reasons unknown. At that point it > becomes > questionable whether it's necessary to your theory to have Aliera be a > "clone" at all. > > My Bayesian detectors are screaming; this theory requires that you have a > heavy prior-belief investment in Verra being "genetically" unrelated to > Aliera. It would probably be simpler to postulate that Verra is somehow a > Dragon herself. Not that I think that's necessary, but YMMV. > > Max Wilson Or, put another way, if you're going to suggest that Verra modified a clone of Adron because she wanted a blond short daughter I'd ask why Verra couldn't have instead modified her part of Aliera's genetics to make Aliera test full-blooded Dragon. It makes more logical sense than randomly deciding on some traits for a daughter, but of course Verra is involved so logic may be a point against the idea. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 28 14:00:46 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 22:00:46 +0100 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051028210049.SYZK8786.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@markmain> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Grady Brandt > Sent: 28 October 2005 21:09 > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory > > On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:45:18 -0400, Maximilian Wilson > wrote: > > > On 10/28/05, Rook wrote: > >> > >> I've come up with another theory for how Aliera became the > accepted > >> Dragon heir despite being half-God: She isn't half-God at > all. Verra > >> is her "mother" because she bore her, but genetically, > Aliera is in > >> fact a clone of Adron. However, we KNOW she has the blood of a god in her vains as she is able to leave the Paths of the Dead From rone at ennui.org Fri Oct 28 14:30:30 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <20051028210049.SYZK8786.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: <20051028213030.5F39A26CA2@boredom.ennui.org> Mark Tiller writes: However, we KNOW she has the blood of a god in her vains as she is able to leave the Paths of the Dead It's not clear that this is why she was allowed to leave. I suspect that she was only allowed to leave because she was the Dragon Heir (at the time) and because Verra was willing to fight to bend the rules for her. I would also imagine that she passed the genetic tests as being a full-blooded Dragon, or else the House wouldn't've approved her being the Heir. There's no reason to have her godly provenance show up in something so mundane as a genetic test. rone -- I never noticed the size of my feet `Til i kicked you in the shins From rone at ennui.org Fri Oct 28 14:31:11 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dzur and the cycle poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051028213111.8B7E526CFB@boredom.ennui.org> Johne Cook writes: I find the poem somewhat charming, the early effort of an emerging author. Its flaws are what endear it to me. Perhaps I'm strange that way, but I suspect I'm hardly unique. I find it about what i'd expect out of Dragaeran poetry. :) rone -- I never noticed the size of my feet `Til i kicked you in the shins From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Fri Oct 28 14:42:57 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:42:57 -0700 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory Message-ID: <20051028214257.28618.qmail@server261.com> > I would also imagine that she passed the genetic tests as being a full-blooded Dragon, or else the House wouldn't've approved her being the Heir. There's no reason to have her godly provenance show up in something so mundane as a genetic test. There's been discussion of this before, and whether gods are considered "of all houses" , or if it was simply that nobody wanted to argue the point. I'm inclined to believe that she *tested* full Dragon, rather than the Dragon Council somehow agreeing that godly genetics got a special pass, especially since Dragerans don't worship the gods. The thing is, even if Verra's a god now, she's also a different species. Whatever she is existed before the Jenoine even created Dragaerans. If Aliera is her daughter genetically, and this is why "the blood of a god" allowed her to leave the paths, then surely it would have shown up on a scan. And if Aliera *is* Verra's daughter gentically, that means she herself is an interspecies crossbreed, which probably means it took a lot of tinkering to make her. I don't know what the genetic work involved in creating a viable, fertile interspecies crossbreed would be, or whether it would be more or less difficult than tinkering with a clone to make it look different from its parent. From casey at the-bat.net Fri Oct 28 14:53:59 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:53:59 -0400 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <20051028210049.SYZK8786.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@markmain> Message-ID: <003501c5dc0a$1b840df0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Mark Tiller wrote: > However, we KNOW she has the blood of a god in her > vains as she is able to leave the Paths of the Dead Whatever it is about "the blood of a god" that allows a person to leave the Paths of the Dead, we really have no clue as to the mechanism. Certainly the fact that Sethra was offered godhood indicates that genetics is unlikely to play much of a role. I think we'd do better to leave this mystery unresolved. Leave Steve some breathing room. Casey From rone at ennui.org Fri Oct 28 14:54:57 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <20051028214257.28618.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: <20051028215457.ADC4426D0D@boredom.ennui.org> =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rook=20?= writes: The thing is, even if Verra's a god now, she's also a different species. Debatable. She clearly *was* a different species, but now that she's a god, she might not be a species anymore in a biological sense. That's godhood for you. I mean, i somehow doubt that she carried baby Aliera in her womb. I don't know what the genetic work involved in creating a viable, fertile interspecies crossbreed would be, or whether it would be more or less difficult than tinkering with a clone to make it look different from its parent. You're overthinking this. Being a god means not having to worry about such silliness, as far as i'm concerned. Otherwise, what's the point? Like Verra says, the truth about being a god is somewhere between the unconditional worship of Easterners and the mere high regard of Dragaerans. rone -- I never noticed the size of my feet `Til i kicked you in the shins From gisho at puddleofgoo.com Fri Oct 28 15:02:01 2005 From: gisho at puddleofgoo.com (Rook ) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:02:01 -0700 Subject: Aliera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory Message-ID: <20051028220201.13051.qmail@server261.com> > From: rone > Debatable. She clearly *was* a different species, but now that she's > a god, she might not be a species anymore in a biological sense. Yes, but Aliera's not a god. ( ... Yet. Oh dear. That could explain some of the weirdness involving Devera's conception nicely.) She clearly has genes, of some sort. And if one accepts that godhood is a quality one can gain, there's no reason to believe Verra isn't *still* whatever she was before, except with the godhood added on - she's still got a physical body, after all. (Some of the other gods, it's not so clear. One could argue that Nyssa, for example, is a dismebodied soul.) > You're overthinking this. Oh, but the overthinking is half the fun! ^_^ From dougcroteau at comcast.net Fri Oct 28 15:11:19 2005 From: dougcroteau at comcast.net (Doug Croteau) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:11:19 -0400 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory References: <20051028214257.28618.qmail@server261.com> Message-ID: <000901c5dc0c$89c16b80$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> I would think that if one actually became a god, one could choose ones new make and model so to speak. The gods appears as widely varied as anyone could imagine, the consistancy is inconsistancy, much like human whim. It is my opinion they choose their own forms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rook " To: "rone" ; "SKZB List" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory > >> I would also imagine that she passed the genetic tests as being a >> full-blooded Dragon, or else the House wouldn't've approved her being the >> Heir. There's no reason to have her godly provenance show up in >> something so mundane as a genetic test. > > There's been discussion of this before, and whether gods are considered > "of all houses" , or if it was simply that nobody wanted to argue the > point. I'm inclined to believe that she *tested* full Dragon, rather than > the Dragon Council somehow agreeing that godly genetics got a special > pass, especially since Dragerans don't worship the gods. > > The thing is, even if Verra's a god now, she's also a different species. > Whatever she is existed before the Jenoine even created Dragaerans. If > Aliera is her daughter genetically, and this is why "the blood of a god" > allowed her to leave the paths, then surely it would have shown up on a > scan. And if Aliera *is* Verra's daughter gentically, that means she > herself is an interspecies crossbreed, which probably means it took a lot > of tinkering to make her. > > I don't know what the genetic work involved in creating a viable, fertile > interspecies crossbreed would be, or whether it would be more or less > difficult than tinkering with a clone to make it look different from its > parent. > http://lists.dd-b.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dragaera From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 17:07:27 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:07:27 -0600 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: References: <20051028165157.5770.qmail@server261.com> <2ddbda5f0510281045l2d4c669bn1b7e0959a2044181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510281707p77ec5905uf17ee244384cbdea@mail.gmail.com> On 10/28/05, Grady Brandt wrote: > > It makes more logical sense than randomly deciding on some traits for a > daughter, but of course Verra is involved so logic may be a point against > the idea. > [Grady Brandt feels the sensation of a six-inch spike being driven through his right temple] -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Oct 28 17:10:31 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:10:31 -0400 Subject: Aliera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory Message-ID: <72931783.13C291E8.00048EA6@aol.com> "Rook " writes: >Oh, but the overthinking is half the fun! ^_^ "I think too much -- therefore I am mad!" (Lucrezia Mongfish, from Girl Genius) -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 14:27:53 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:27:53 +0000 Subject: Heheheheh Message-ID: So, I *finally* got my girlfriend to read the damn books, and I talked to her last night, and she mentioned that at one point she wanted to reach into the books and smack the author upside the head, in response for the "She could turn you into a newt"/"I'd get better" line... heheheheeheheheh She also thinks Sethra is a "bit of a contradiction, isn't she?" Anyway, I told her that there are gems to be found like that throughout the books, and I think I'll take her to Mam's site, so.... I just thought Steve would appreciate the reaction of needing to slap someone for those lines. Jon From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Oct 29 14:37:46 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:37:46 -0700 Subject: House Colors Message-ID: <4363EBAA.3050906@comcast.net> So, I just got finished writing a couple of speculative articles for the wikicity on the use of color in Dragaera. I was wondering if there's any other substantve information I might have missed on the house colors for a few of the houses--notably the Iorich, Vallista, Chreotha and Hawk. As far as I can determine, these houses are unaccounted for, color-wise. If you want to check up on what I've written so far, the following links will take you there: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/index.php?title=House_Colors_%28Speculation%29&rcid=3793 http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Color_%28Speculation%29 http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/House_Colors (I'd also like to give thanks (and props) to Mark A. Mandel for his excellent "Houses" table on Cracks and Shards that made writing this stuff sooooo much simpler.) Majikjon From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat Oct 29 15:41:25 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <000901c5dc0c$89c16b80$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> References: <20051028214257.28618.qmail@server261.com> <000901c5dc0c$89c16b80$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20051029173728.0384f720@pop.east.cox.net> Pardon the top-posting. I can't tell what is what below. I haven't done a whole lot of thinking about Dragaeran theology, but I think I remember that the Gods are beings capable of manifesting in any plane of existence (barring being killed in one of the planes, as Morrolan killed a god once). Surely, Verra may, therefore, manifest in Dragaera as a Dragaeran? She must have, to have conceived and borne Aliera. At 17:11 10/28/2005, Doug Croteau wrote: >I would think that if one actually became a god, one could choose ones new >make and model so to speak. The gods appears as widely varied as anyone >could imagine, the consistancy is inconsistancy, much like human whim. It >is my opinion they choose their own forms. > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Rook " >To: "rone" ; "SKZB List" >Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:42 PM >Subject: Re: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory > > >> >>> I would also imagine that she passed the genetic tests as being a >>> full-blooded Dragon, or else the House wouldn't've approved her being >>> the Heir. There's no reason to have her godly provenance show up in >>> something so mundane as a genetic test. >> >>There's been discussion of this before, and whether gods are considered >>"of all houses" , or if it was simply that nobody wanted to argue the >>point. I'm inclined to believe that she *tested* full Dragon, rather than >>the Dragon Council somehow agreeing that godly genetics got a special >>pass, especially since Dragerans don't worship the gods. >> >>The thing is, even if Verra's a god now, she's also a different species. >>Whatever she is existed before the Jenoine even created Dragaerans. If >>Aliera is her daughter genetically, and this is why "the blood of a god" >>allowed her to leave the paths, then surely it would have shown up on a >>scan. And if Aliera *is* Verra's daughter gentically, that means she >>herself is an interspecies crossbreed, which probably means it took a lot >>of tinkering to make her. >> >>I don't know what the genetic work involved in creating a viable, fertile >>interspecies crossbreed would be, or whether it would be more or less >>difficult than tinkering with a clone to make it look different from its >>parent. > -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:42:10 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 01:42:10 +0200 Subject: House Colors In-Reply-To: <4363EBAA.3050906@comcast.net> Message-ID: Jon Lincicum wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: House Colors >Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:37:46 -0700 > >So, I just got finished writing a couple of speculative articles for the >wikicity on the use of color in Dragaera. > >I was wondering if there's any other substantve information I might have >missed on the house colors for a few of the houses--notably the Iorich, >Vallista, Chreotha and Hawk. > >As far as I can determine, these houses are unaccounted for, color-wise. > >If you want to check up on what I've written so far, the following links >will take you there: > >http://dragaera.wikicities.com/index.php?title=House_Colors_%28Speculation%29&rcid=3793 >http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Color_%28Speculation%29 >http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/House_Colors > >(I'd also like to give thanks (and props) to Mark A. Mandel for his >excellent "Houses" table on Cracks and Shards that made writing this stuff >sooooo much simpler.) > >Majikjon I notice that no house want to be Mr Pink either. :) From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:55:28 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:55:28 -0600 Subject: Alera's Dragon-ness - alternate theory In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051029173728.0384f720@pop.east.cox.net> References: <20051028214257.28618.qmail@server261.com> <000901c5dc0c$89c16b80$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> <6.2.0.14.2.20051029173728.0384f720@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0510291655lb5825c6s445068dbb9c3a926@mail.gmail.com> On 10/29/05, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > Pardon the top-posting. I can't tell what is what below. > > I haven't done a whole lot of thinking about Dragaeran theology, but I > think I remember that the Gods are beings capable of manifesting in any > plane of existence (barring being killed in one of the planes, as Morrolan > killed a god once). Surely, Verra may, therefore, manifest in Dragaera as > a Dragaeran? She must have, to have conceived and borne Aliera. > I agree. Devera was "conceived in the Paths of the Dead and born in Verra's halls," leading to her odd relationship with time. The fact that Aliera does not have such a relationship argues for her conception and perhaps birth being a little bit less exotic. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 23:14:52 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:14:52 -0800 Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote Message-ID: Some words of explanation: Several years ago, I became interested in Islamic folktales and stories. My researches led me to collections of Sufi teaching stories, and from there, to the works of Idries Shah. After reading the stories he collected, and deciding that I liked his style, I read more and more of his works. He was very ecelectic, good humoured, and insightful, and I think some here might get quite a lot out of reading his books. Who was Idries Shah? Well, he was, among other things, a Muslim, a Sufi (for certain values of "Sufi" - there appears to be some controversy over ideologies), and a proud Afghan. He was a keen observer of the people he interacted with and the societies in which he found himself. Living in England for many years, he decided to write a few books about the English, describing them from something of an outsider's perspective. These were some very witty books indeed, and as such, I really ought to let his own words speak for themselves. This snippet is from "The Englishman's handbook : or, How to deal with foreigners", which perhaps explains something about the bit that will follow. [Begin Cite] An Afghan, as such, has few stereotypes to accord with. My sister Amina claims she has only one, because of Kipling's words, regularly recited to her by English people: When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains An' the women come out to cut up what remains Jest roll to your rifle an' blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. But, as she says, it only needs someone to write something more arresting and she could become approved of overnight. The trouble is, the Afghans themselves have cultivated a tear?away image for so long that they don't feel the need to do much about it. We keep it up, even in England. No time ago the medical journal Current Practice quoted a Gallup poll among GPs. They were asked if they had been threatened with violence at work. One third of them had: they spoke of alcohol, drugs, razors and psychiatrically disturbed patients. A single respondent, how?ever, was less detailed, laconic: Threatened three times in the past seven years, but, being an Afghan, I threatened them back. [End Cite] This is the beginning of the chapter in particular that I wanted to bring forth, from "Darkest England": [Begin Cite] Aplomb is French for 'perpendicularity' as of a lead weight on a line, self-possession'; and sang-froid, of course, means coolness of blood. It is probable that the English prefer to use these foreign terms for something which is widespread among them because it is bad form to boast of one's own coolness. That is, it sounds better to say, 'By jove, that Frenchman certainly had aplomb', to show that one approves of the characteristic, than to claim to possess it oneself. It is left to others to make further inferences. This is part of the amateur-status preference in England. A compatriot of mine was told, at his first Oxford tutorial, 'You are not only here to learn. Try to acquire the appearance of not bothering to work at anything. Let others boast of their studiousness.' It is aplomb which other peoples associate with the English. An American joke may be taken as the standard text: An Englishman is standing at the long bar of a saloon in the Wild West. Suddenly a suncrazed outlaw rushes in, straight through the batwing doors, firing into the air and howling, 'Get outta here, you coyotes!' Everyone dives for the floor or stampedes out of the place. The Englishman, however, is still standing there, as the new?comer skids up to him with staring eyes. 'By jove' says the Englishman, 'you were right. There /were/ a lot of coyotes in here, weren't there?' [End Cite] And he goes on for bit, through annecdotes more or less amusing. But this one, here, is the heart of the matter, I think. As for its relevance on this list, well, I can just see this as perhaps being an encounter between a Dzur and an Issola... [Begin Cite] Aplomb is often, though not always, related to the actual words used; as I remember from an event of my childhood. For?tunately I can recall it in detail, though at the time I did not know what the phenomenon was called. It happened in the Afghan mountains. A distinguished Englishman was due to visit us, and considerable preparations had been made to provide a welcome appropriate to his dignity - and also to what we regarded as ours. Now, our place was well enough fortified, but it was at the top of a winding road, at times infested by outlaws who attacked people as a matter of course. Their motto was '/O darad, man chira nabegiram/ - He's got it, why should I not take it?' On the morning of the visit a fairly wild bandit was in the area, and he spotted the Englishman's Rolls-Royce. With a cry of delight at the prospect of sport and gain, this ruffian fired a warning shot (which shattered a wing-mirror) and began to leap from crag to crag, downhill towards his prey. The Indian driver of the car jumped out and rolled into the ditch, teeth chattering, as the English celebrity sat: becalmed, eyes riveted upon the advancing figure. There seemed no hope for him. Suddenly, like a scene from a film, another shot rang out, and the bandit fell, drilled clean through the head. Then, from behind a boulder, also tripping from rock to rock, came a stocky, middle-aged figure, clad in deerstalker hat and Norfolk jacket, a hunting rifle in his hand: It was the formi?dable Sirdar Faiz-Mohammed Khan, Zikria, our neighbour and a crack shot with a Mannlicher, who had spent a lot of time in England, and spoke the language well. As he came up to the Englishman, the Sirdar swept off his cap and said, 'Good morning, my dear sir. The obstacle to your progress having been removed, you may now proceed.' 'But you needn't have killed him,' spluttered our guest, which was quite quick thinking, all things considered. 'I had to, on grounds of hospitality,' said the Afghan, 'the fellow was being almost discourteous.' Between them, the two got the shivering driver back behind the wheel, and the first thing that I knew about it all was the Rolls entering our courtyard to the sound of trumpets, and then the Englishman, white to the gills, muttering 'Almost discour?teous, /almost/ discourteous, almost /discourteous/', like a holy mantram. My father said, 'Terribly sorry about that spot of bother. Lot of it about at this time of year, you know'. Having recovered his composure, and relaxing after the feast, our guest asked, 'What would His Excellency have done if the ruffian had /actually/ been discourteous, instead of "almost"?' My father said, 'The Sirdar would have crossed that bridge when he came to it.' Now I come to think of it, I can't decide which of them had the greater aplomb. [End Cite] From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 06:57:46 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:57:46 -0500 Subject: quiet Message-ID: Rather quiet, no? What happened to everyone? Maybe Steve should tease us with some of Dzur. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 13:46:19 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:46:19 -0700 Subject: [SKZB] Miss Manners, on America Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511021346v3b99dba1ycef0d6737cfb40c9@mail.gmail.com> Hey guys, This stimulated some interesting thoughts. Sorry if it's off-topic, but I hope it's not too far off. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 08:08:35 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:08:35 -0500 Subject: Quiet Message-ID: Awfully quiet. Even the food/magic/culture emails haven't happened for a while. So, Louis' speculation: The Lavode Scandal and Sethra being banned from court: How could have this happened? Perhaps Sethra had a relationship with an Emperor(ess) and when things went sour got banned from court. Or perhaps such and such ruler at the time discovered Sethra's undeadness in an intimate moment? I would be pretty miffed if my lover neglected to tell me she suddenly became an animated corpse. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Sat Nov 5 09:42:40 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:42:40 -0800 Subject: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it's a stretch) Message-ID: The Question- Are Morganti weapons effective in the Halls of Judgement? I propose they are conditionally- when applied to non-divinities. Because: Morganti weapons destroy souls. Souls are extant in the paths of the dead. (re: Issola, Taltos, etc.) The only textev I can remember that may support this is that in Taltos (I may have the book inaccurate) Morrolan is fighting with the presumably dead Dragonlord (before Vlad mixes it up) and ""She (Morrolan's opponent) looked at it (Blackwand) apprehensively. "Don't worry, it does what I tell it to." says Morrolan."" This to me implies at least that Blackwand in particular could/would be effective in destroying a soul permanently while it is "unbodied"- that is, when the soul-destroying properties are active and come into contact with the soul-material-as-energy-field (Issola). I postulate that Blackwand is (for this question) a special case of Morganti weapon, in that its soul-destroying properties can be "turned off", either by the sentient blade itself, or by the will of Morrolan. I also postulate that the "people" in the Halls, and also specifically in the outlying areas, are the soul-material-as-energy-field, either temporarily embodied, or that actually the Halls (and environs) are a dimension where the soul-material is manifested as a body, while Vlad and Morrolan's bodies are .... hmmm.... either still exstant and are treated as soul-material, or possibly their physical forms are subsumed by their soul-material, or temporarily suppressed by their soul-material- because most physical bodies don't actually make it out of the shoreline area. This might have implications on the whole debate about why V (as Easterner) was allowed one Get Out of Hall Free pass. Or not. James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN Ps. Enjoy From dovekie at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 19:41:59 2005 From: dovekie at gmail.com (dovekie) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:41:59 -0600 Subject: first post, first question Message-ID: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before, but... Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Nov 7 20:21:24 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:21:24 EST Subject: Quiet Message-ID: <196.4b26b583.30a181c4@aol.com> In a message dated 11/7/2005 10:42:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, almagaiz at gmail.com writes: Awfully quiet. Even the food/magic/culture emails haven't happened for a while. Sorry, I have got Serenity on my mind. Movie is still playing in my area. But be quiet anyways. Don't want to put too much stress on Steve. Heh. Steve, "I haven't made you angry, have I?" But really, be careful with those stress tests. They do them in hospitals because people can die from them. Maybe you could do the non-invasive dye stress test--instead of the running-until-you-die-stress test. http://www.livejournal.com/users/skzbrust/ God Bless you and good luck. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:46:57 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:46:57 -0800 Subject: Concerning Tact Message-ID: The link to the Miss Manner's interview reminded me that there was another quote from /Darkest England/, by Idries Shah, which I thought was particularly appropriate, given some of what was discussed in /Issola/. [Begin Cite] Now?adays foreigners tend to call English directness by softer names, such as `tactlessness'. Their brusqueness, or tactless?ness, call it what you will, is deliberate; paradoxically, it is engendered by the operation of careful purpose. It is this very word which gave me an early breakthrough in understanding the English, through the wisdom of an Afghan sage, Sufi Abdul-Hamid Khan. The old Sufi and I were in London. As Master of the Royal Mint in Kabul and a considerable calligrapher, he had the task of supervising the production here of a new issue of high-denomination Afghan banknotes. We were received with courtesy by the meaning director of a large security-printing firm, who asked me to translate for Abdul-Hamid something which, though a pleasantry in English, would have been considered rather coarse in our language. As I hesitated, the Sufi picked up my thoughts, and said, `He's being tactless, I suppose?' I said, `Well, he hasn't got your /saliqa/' - the word we use to mean intuition, including a sense of delicacy. After the meeting, at Abdul-Hamid's hotel, the old man asked me what the English word for `tact' was, and I told him. `And what, exactly, does it mean?' 'It means,' I said, `being sensitive to how people are feeling, to things that might hurt or affront, and acting accordingly.' `Aga', said the sage, `although I don't know these people's tongue, and you are a master of it, experiences such as ours today indicates that you cannot be quite right.' `Friend Sufi', I said, `far be it from me to question any of your perceptions, but everyone in this country knows full well exactly what this very common word means, and is thoroughly sensible to its nuances. I admit to including myself in their number.' He was a very gentle kind of man, and he just smiled kindly and asked me to find a good English dictionary. I went out and bought one, the current edition of Chambers's. `Now please, if you will, look up that word.' He pointed to his note, in perfect Nastaliq phonetics: `TAKT'. I riffled through the book, to page 1122: `Here you are: "/tact/ [pronounced] /takt/, noun. Adroitness in managing the feelings of persons dealt with. . ."' I put it down and smiled. He nodded. `Now please see what else it may say under that heading.' Reluctantly, I opened the book again, and read the rest of the sentence: "'Nice perception in seeing and doing exactly what is best in the circumstances."' The Sufi bowed. `Thank you. Now perhaps you see what I mean?' 'Not entirely. I think that man at the printers did lack nice perception.' `Ah', said Abdul-Hamid, `there you have it. I am quite sure that he did not lack it. He had the perception of what kind of effect any words of his might have on us. What he was doing was a consequence of what he thought was best - for him - under the circumstances.' Best /for him/. That was the clue. So, when an Englishman says or does something you don't like, ask yourself whether he really is acting against his own interests. He may only be using his assessment to handle the situation. How do you know, for instance, that he doesn't want to ruffle or confuse you? It could be in your own interests to know. [End Cite] From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 23:58:12 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:58:12 -0800 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> References: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/7/05, dovekie wrote: > > Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? > Well, first you take the Java programming language, and then you add a framework for distributed and mobile applications... http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/bettini01klava.html OK, I joke. The last I heard, the closest thing to klava was egg coffee, for which a recipe is here: http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html I've not tried it myself, but perhaps someone here will be reminded of it and report on it, or be inspired to try. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 8 04:51:02 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:51:02 -0700 Subject: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it's a stretch) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43709F36.1000200@brazee.net> James Griffin wrote: >The Question- > >Are Morganti weapons effective in the Halls of Judgement? > >I propose they are conditionally- when applied to non-divinities. > > Godslayer has to be effective in the Halls. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 8 04:54:06 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:54:06 -0700 Subject: Quiet In-Reply-To: <196.4b26b583.30a181c4@aol.com> References: <196.4b26b583.30a181c4@aol.com> Message-ID: <43709FEE.2070105@brazee.net> But really, be careful with those stress tests. They do them in hospitals >because people can die from them. Maybe you could do the non-invasive dye >stress test--instead of >the running-until-you-die-stress test. > > > I do the tread mill test to check my stents. It's real hard as my heart doesn't get fast enough in the time they allocate (it is important because of the radioactive stuff in me). When I do this, I couldn't go to a facility that handles radioactivity for a couple of weeks without setting off all their alarms. From scs at di.org Tue Nov 8 06:29:48 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:29:48 -0500 Subject: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it's a stretch) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051108142948.GC2471@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sat, Nov 05, 2005 at 09:42:40AM -0800, James Griffin wrote: > Are Morganti weapons effective in the Halls of Judgement? . . . I'm not going to answer your question here, but do have a few other things to say. We know by example that Pathfinder can hold a soul that is not its own without destroying it, I believe this was established in Jhereg and commented on a number of times since then. > Because: Morganti weapons destroy souls. Actually, I'm not so sure of that. I think they make it impossible for the soul to reach the Halls and prevent it from being able to manifest in Dragaera. Thus no person who has been killed by a Morganti can be revivified, nor are their souls seen again by any god, human, or Easterner. Doesn't mean they're dead, it just means that they're not 'here' any more. I have no textev for this, just a conjecture based on what we know about reincarnation and the slippery way Serioli talk about things. Humans and Easterners say that Morganti weapons destroy souls. But we've never heard a Serioli say it. Well, not that I recall. -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 06:28:31 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:28:31 -0600 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: References: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4370B60F.8050307@comcast.net> My aunt routinely brews egg coffee. It is very pleasant, without the overtone of bitterness in other coffees. Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 11/7/05, dovekie wrote: > > >>Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? >> >> >> > >Well, first you take the Java programming language, and then you add a >framework for distributed and mobile applications... > > http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/bettini01klava.html > >OK, I joke. > >The last I heard, the closest thing to klava was egg coffee, for which >a recipe is here: > > http://homepage.interaccess.com/~june4/eggcoffee.html > >I've not tried it myself, but perhaps someone here will be reminded of >it and report on it, or be inspired to try. > > > > From casey at the-bat.net Tue Nov 8 07:12:36 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:12:36 -0500 Subject: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it's astretch) In-Reply-To: <20051108142948.GC2471@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <008401c5e476$db1fdee0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Steve Simmons writ: > Actually, I'm not so sure of that. I think they make it impossible > for the soul to reach the Halls and prevent it from being able to > manifest in Dragaera. Thus no person who has been killed by a > Morganti can be revivified, nor are their souls seen again by any > god, human, or Easterner. Doesn't mean they're dead, it just means > that they're not 'here' any more. Hmmm, this would make the revulsion Vlad feels for the "hungry" semisentience of Morganti blades a result of religious superstition? > I have no textev for this, just a conjecture based on what we know > about reincarnation and the slippery way Serioli talk about things. > Humans and Easterners say that Morganti weapons destroy souls. But > we've never heard a Serioli say it. Well, not that I recall. Other than the Serioli's cryptic comments about 'remover of aspects of divinity' and 'wand that creates death in sword form' do we have discussion from Serioli on anything? From scs at di.org Tue Nov 8 07:50:26 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:50:26 -0500 Subject: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it's astretch) In-Reply-To: <008401c5e476$db1fdee0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <20051108142948.GC2471@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <008401c5e476$db1fdee0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <20051108155026.GA2678@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 10:12:36AM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Steve Simmons writ: > > Actually, I'm not so sure of that. I think they make it impossible > > for the soul to reach the Halls and prevent it from being able to > > manifest in Dragaera . . . > Hmmm, this would make the revulsion Vlad feels for the "hungry" > semisentience of Morganti blades a result of religious superstition? Of course not, and I didn't in any way say that. Vlad (and presumably) most Dragaeans and Easterners) interpret it as hunger to consume the soul in its entirety. What they may actually be perceiving is hunger to consume some particular aspect of the soul - its ability to manifest in the Dragaeran plane and the plane containing the Halls of Judgement. > > I have no textev for this, just a conjecture based on what we know > > about reincarnation and the slippery way Serioli talk about things. > > Humans and Easterners say that Morganti weapons destroy souls. But > > we've never heard a Serioli say it. Well, not that I recall. > > Other than the Serioli's cryptic comments about 'remover of aspects of > divinity' and 'wand that creates death in sword form' do we have discussion > from Serioli on anything? Little, very little. What we do have is strong textual evidence that the Serioli created the Great Weapons to oppose the Gods. Denying them the ability to manifest in Dragaera certainly settles that issue quite thoroughly, and may be easier than actually killing them. In support of that thesis, note that a relatively ordinary Taltos horse is able to permanently prevent Verra from manifesting somewhere in 'Brokedown Palace.' And Godslayers correct name is 'Remover of Aspects of Divinity.' If memory serves, the Serioli attempts to correct Vlad and Morrolan on several similar items. IMHO this provides enough textev to say that humans and Easterners could well have misinterpreted what the Serioli say Morganti weapons do. I can well imagine that the Serioli said the weapons were "removers of souls from this plane." Easterners and Dragaerans, who probably knew little or nothing of any other planes, would immediately leap to a wrong interpretation. the other Steve -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 08:56:38 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:56:38 -0500 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> References: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4370D8C6.8040302@earthlink.net> dovekie wrote: >Hello, > >I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before, but... > >Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? > We had a discussion about this a few months ago (and again before that), but I believe the most recent one was swallowed up by the gods of data loss when the server when down. From my archive, I have the following: > Scott Crain wrote: > > To quote Vlad in Issola: > "You press coffee through a filter made of eggshells and wood chips > with vanillla bean, then reheat it so it almost boils, then you pass > it through a cloth to remove any oils brought out by the reheating. > [...] Hickory works well, also fegra, cherrywood, and crocra. It's the > wood, or combination of woods, that make each version unique. Well, > and how much vanilla you use. Also, some people add cinnamon, but I > don't; cinnamon is just as good if you add it later." > > Voila! Klava! Well, maybe not directions you would care to try right > now, but I'm sure someone will be curious enough to try. So you have a starting point. Then, from people who actually tried this, as compiled by Linda G. (frieda2133 at aol.com): >Hi, > >Someone who says he made klava (March 2003) : > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/7312 > >Steve's reaction to the idea that someone actually might have tried his recipe >for klava: > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:7355:200303:eocfglpaambefnpgocco > >Mark A. Mandel's warning about toxic wood: > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:15270:200411:ianhkddgadgfgidflgbl > >Heh, this may be a bad sign, the person who says he made klava in 2003 is >no longer on the mailing list. > >Bye. > >Linda G. > I assume others with more knowledge here can expand on this; I don't actually drink coffee, so there's not much I can contribute to the discussion/recipe... Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From sethra500 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 08:59:12 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Sethra) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:59:12 -0500 Subject: quiet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30991dd10511080859g12c42eb2oa7faa1972d20841f@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > > Rather quiet, no? What happened to everyone? > Maybe Steve should tease us with some of Dzur. ooooo that would be sweet! -- Sethra "I am not an adventurer by choice but by fate." -- Vincent Van Gogh (1853-90), Dutch postimpressionist painter From sethra500 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 09:07:18 2005 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Sethra) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:07:18 -0500 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> References: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30991dd10511080907i488f2f25g32e720a089106416@mail.gmail.com> On 11/7/05, dovekie wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before, > but... > > Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? > i bought the stuff to make it, but i haven't had time and ended up eating the eggs for breakfast. Welcome To The List! -- Sethra "As to that? T'is no great hardship. Were't not for that, ev'ry cowardly fellow would turn pirate and so infest the sea that men of courage must starve." Mary Read at her trial Nov. 28 1720 when asked what she thought about her punishment of hanging. From bryann at bryann.net Tue Nov 8 10:30:23 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:30:23 -0600 Subject: Quiet (Spoilers) Message-ID: <000601c5e492$7b46e8d0$6501a8c0@dell> Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: The Phoenix Guards The Paths of the Dead The Lord of Castle Black Sethra Lavode Brokedown Palace Jhereg Taltos Phoenix Athyra Orca Issola * * * * * * * * * * * spoiler space * * * * * * * * * * * * Ten On-Topic Topics ----------------------------- 1. In Sethra Lavode, Laszlo cannot use witchcraft due to the influence of Tri'nagore, and yet Arra (and the circle of witches) manage to cast a spell on Morrolan and/or Blackwand that enables Morrolan to kill Tri'nagore. With Tri'nagore's death, Laszlo regains the use of witchcraft. How did Arra manage to use witchcraft while Laszlo could not? 2. Verra is slain (or, perhaps more accurately, "banished" from the East) in Brokedown Palace. Why can she still manifest in the Empire (see Issola)? Is the Empire a different "plane of existence" than the East? Tri'nagore is also slain in the East, and yet there seems to be little doubt that he is banished from the Empire as well as the East. Does this imply that Dzur Mountain and the Lesser Sea of Chaos (the two places Verra manifests in Issola) are on different planes of existence than the rest of the world of Dragaera? 3. It seems that the physical Cycle is somehow tied to the Empire. There is even the hint that the Cycle is older than the Empire (POTD 193). And yet, in Issola, Sethra mentions that there were 31 tribes that came together to form the Empire, of which presumably only 17 still exist. Further, it appears the Jhereg were a late addition to this list, being formed during Kieron's lifetime by Dolivar (BOJ 82), mostly from ex-Dragons. If the Cycle is older than the Empire, why are there only 17 houses on it, and why are the Jhereg one of them? 4. In The Lord of Castle Black, pg 391, Verra asserts that Morrolan will one day use the oldest of the magical arts (elder sorcery?). Her sister claims he has not the bloodlines to do this, and Verra replies, "we shall see". In Taltos, Vlad is given a vial of (Verra's?) blood, which he then uses to rescue Morrolan from the Paths of the Dead (by infusing it into his blood). Is this perhaps what Verra was hinting at? 5. Re: the recent discussion about how Vlad healed his arm at the end of Issola. I noticed on a recent reread of Phoenix that when Vlad cuts his hand to gain entrance to Verra's Halls, Spellbreaker heals the cut spontaneously. I would also submit that "putting itself back together" (with Vlad's assistance?) at the end of Issola qualifies as a healing of sorts. I wonder if it could heal Svan. 6. In Jhereg, after meeting Rocza, Morrolan tells Vlad he did not think a witch could have two familiars. Vlad goes on to argue that Rocza is not actually his familiar, but back to Morrolan: Had he forgotten about Awtla and Sireng? Or does that indicate that one of them was not Laszlo's familiar? 7. I am nearly convinced that the narrator of Athyra is none other than Svan himself. First off, it does appear to be narrated, not told from the 3rd person. Consider the beginning of chapter 1, where it says, "The next thing to happen, which was really the first for our purposes..." The "our" here suggests the story is being narrated. Second, the only two characters whose thoughts we are directly privy to are Svan himself, and Rocza. Svan seems to have a special relationship with Rocza (see Orca when Loiosh is hurt), and is being trained as a witch by Vlad. If Svan is the narrator, that implies he does eventually recover, and perhaps gets to know Rocza fairly well (well enough to quote her thoughts/memories). Does Rocza eventually become Svan's familiar? If you want some really off-the-wall speculation, consider: Can a Teckla become a Lavode? 8. On the longevity of Easterners: Zerika's Eastern lover is named Laszlo in the Paarfiad, and she also tells Vlad in Phoenix that her Eastern lover's name "is" (note the tense) Laszlo. If this is the same Easterner, he is very long lived indeed. On the other hand, Morrolan's head of the circle in the Paarfiad is Arra--who, we are told, has been granted longevity by Verra--and yet by the time of Issola, that role is filled by Surill (pg 24 of the paperback). Of course, this could be the same person (Chaz/Tukko, anyone?) 9. This one is probably too obvious, but: I believe Kiera is the sole narrator of Orca. First, everything Vlad says is narrated as if he were telling it to Kiera "after the fact". Second, Kiera tells us things that Vlad doesn't know (the conversations/letters with Cawti, the 1st conversation with Loftis (when Vlad is "figuring it out" he mentions that she glossed over parts of that conversation when she recounted it to him)). This, along with #7, suggests that at least four people have access to the "magic box" that allows communication with Steven Brust: Vlad, Kiera, Svan and Paarfi. I don't know how Brokedown Palace fits in with all this. 10. It has been suggested that Paarfi is a mouthpiece for Sethra. In one of my emails to Steven Brust concerning the geography of Dragaera, he responded to something I quoted from Paarfi by saying, "Pel is wrong. Sort of." The passage we were discussing was clearly narrated by Paarfi (it was a description of the location of Newmarket relative to Dragaera City early in TPG), not directly attributable to Pel. This seems to suggest that at least portions of Paarfi's tale were supplied by Pel, not Sethra. Or maybe Pel is Sethra's mouthpiece, and Paarfi is Pel's. As always, my intent was to come up with 17 of these (I've been working on this email for the last two weeks), but due to the recent outcry against the List's reticence, I am submitting this early. Bryan From casey at the-bat.net Tue Nov 8 11:25:25 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:25:25 -0500 Subject: Quiet (Spoilers) (spolerless) In-Reply-To: <000601c5e492$7b46e8d0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <00b401c5e49a$2c2843e0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:29:46 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:29:46 -0800 Subject: Athyra and Savn Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > Athyra > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * spoiler space * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > > 7. I am nearly convinced that the narrator of Athyra is none other than Svan > himself. First off, it does appear to be narrated, not told from the 3rd > person. Consider the beginning of chapter 1, where it says, "The next thing > to happen, which was really the first for our purposes..." The "our" here > suggests the story is being narrated. Second, the only two characters whose > thoughts we are directly privy to are Svan himself, and Rocza. Svan seems > to have a special relationship with Rocza (see Orca when Loiosh is hurt), > and is being trained as a witch by Vlad. If Svan is the narrator, that > implies he does eventually recover, and perhaps gets to know Rocza fairly > well (well enough to quote her thoughts/memories). Does Rocza eventually > become Svan's familiar? If you want some really off-the-wall speculation, > consider: Can a Teckla become a Lavode? > I apologize for nitpicking, but since you wrote "Svan" throughout - his name is in fact "Savn", S-A-V-N. On a meta-level, SKZB has said that that stood for "Still Another Vlad Novel". I can in fact see Savn writing down the events of Athyra, much later in his life; the narrative has the feeling of a mature person reminiscing. I think it could be further speculated that the brain damage he sustained might have caused a break in his perception of self, such that while he has access to the memories that occurred prior to and leading up to the injury, they don't feel like they are "his", the person who he has become. Hence the third person narrative. I am not sure that Savn gains Rocza as a familiar, but he might have felt close enough to her that he can speculate on her thoughts as demonstrated by her actions. Also, consider that female jhereg are the dominant ones: she might be bolder about psychically communicating with strangers. For that matter, she was travelling with Savn for more than a year. Perhaps, as they travelled back to Smallcliff from Northport, he tried to understand what had happened to him, and she helped by communicating her memories of the events, as she understood them. I don't deny that Teckla might become Lavodes, but I don't see any particular reason to suppose that Savn was or is such a Teckla. I mean, he's done a lot, but he's still the son of a farmer who is learning the craft of healing - not a great warrior nor a great wizard, nor someone who has learned the understanding of politics or investigation or any of the other skills that the Lavodes need to have. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 12:45:43 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:45:43 +0000 Subject: Godslayer In-Reply-To: <20051108155026.GA2678@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: I have a hunch that the transformation from a mortal to a god involves, at some point, being invested with the blood of a divine being. This meshes with both philosophies, both Eastern and Dragaeran: The Fenarians believe that gods are "not-mortals" and that they are beings to be worshipped and, well, deified. The Dragaerans consider godhood, with some conditions, I bet, to be just another step on the path of sorcery, coincidentally giving much insight into the nature of their psyches, and how central sorcery is to them. Perhaps, as a side note, sorcery is so freakishly important, because without it, the very thing that defines them (their melding with actual animal stock) may never have come to pass (it's true, it was Jenoine "sorcery" that did it---but really, when someone does something magical, to proto-humans [or even futuristic humans, who, with their advanced technology may be even MORE convinced that magic is magic and not technology] then they will probably not care too much and just say "Look! Magic!!"). Anyway, it would make sense that Sethra would then have been given the blood of a goddess, but then refused to take (probably wanting to avoid being bound by the rules of the gods, thus causing great offense to certain deities who dislike having the fact that there are rules binding them [causing them all to be, in some ways, demons, a seemingly racial-esque insult to them) and even more offense was caused, I imagine, in the cases where it was unavoidably true. It would also make sense that Morrolan is not yet a god because, while he has the blood of a god in him, he has not yet made the other steps to which I alluded in the above. So, to get to my point, when one says that a certain blade "removes the aspects of divinity" I would imagine that it removes most, if not all aspects of divinity, whereas a regular GW would only remove one in particular. I would put forward, as perhaps an over-simplification, godhood is a multi-stepped process that allows the individual to manifest on many different planes, and thus, in the way that a hand in the 3rd dimension would just magically appear and seem to affect great change on a specific 2nd dimensional plane (appearing to "pass through it") achieve an effect that is truly god-like in its ability to interfere with things :P In fact, each step may have a correlating plane to it, though this is more likely to be an even greater over-simplification: For instance, the ability to manifest freely in the Paths of the Dead, for which everyone seems to have a quota of one in their blood (for each time they manifest in the Dragaeran realm), would seem to be most connected to the presence of a certain blood type, ie, the blood of a divinity. Obviously, something in the blood itself, whether it is a weird chemical, or some mystical property (probably both) allows someone this privilege. Morrolan, I imagine, would have no problem going back to the Paths and coming back. We know that mastering the seven necromantic gates is not a pre-requisite, though maybe knowing one or two may. This we know from Verra's reaction to the Necromancer's "curriculum vitae" having included 5 or 6 of them. After a while, though, it may seem silly--a checklist to become a god? Give me a break! But when you consider that mastering a necromantic gate probably requires at LEAST a dragaeran lifetime, well then you see that there are really no "shortcuts" to be made, making this THE checklist to complete, THE scavenger hunt to play. So, next question: Am I mostly a Dragon or an Athyra? Or maybe even a Hawk? I mean, I have the ego of a Dragon, and certainly their ambition, the curiousity and insufferableness of a Hawk and the mystical academic bent that fits so many Athyra to a T. Jon ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steve Simmons To: Casey Rousseau CC: Dragaera Subject: Re: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it'sastretch) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:50:26 -0500 On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 10:12:36AM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Steve Simmons writ: > > Actually, I'm not so sure of that. I think they make it impossible > > for the soul to reach the Halls and prevent it from being able to > > manifest in Dragaera . . . > Hmmm, this would make the revulsion Vlad feels for the "hungry" > semisentience of Morganti blades a result of religious superstition? Of course not, and I didn't in any way say that. Vlad (and presumably) most Dragaeans and Easterners) interpret it as hunger to consume the soul in its entirety. What they may actually be perceiving is hunger to consume some particular aspect of the soul - its ability to manifest in the Dragaeran plane and the plane containing the Halls of Judgement. > > I have no textev for this, just a conjecture based on what we know > > about reincarnation and the slippery way Serioli talk about things. > > Humans and Easterners say that Morganti weapons destroy souls. But > > we've never heard a Serioli say it. Well, not that I recall. > > Other than the Serioli's cryptic comments about 'remover of aspects of > divinity' and 'wand that creates death in sword form' do we have discussion > from Serioli on anything? Little, very little. What we do have is strong textual evidence that the Serioli created the Great Weapons to oppose the Gods. Denying them the ability to manifest in Dragaera certainly settles that issue quite thoroughly, and may be easier than actually killing them. In support of that thesis, note that a relatively ordinary Taltos horse is able to permanently prevent Verra from manifesting somewhere in 'Brokedown Palace.' And Godslayers correct name is 'Remover of Aspects of Divinity.' If memory serves, the Serioli attempts to correct Vlad and Morrolan on several similar items. IMHO this provides enough textev to say that humans and Easterners could well have misinterpreted what the Serioli say Morganti weapons do. I can well imagine that the Serioli said the weapons were "removers of souls from this plane." Easterners and Dragaerans, who probably knew little or nothing of any other planes, would immediately leap to a wrong interpretation. the other Steve -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 12:48:43 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:48:43 +0000 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <000601c5e492$7b46e8d0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: Does creating a morganti blade require the soul or maybe blood of a Taltos? (the animal, not the family name, though I imagine that Vlad is a Taltos as well) It would explain how morganti do what morganti do---prevent manifestation in certain planes or places. Jon From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 8 13:01:10 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:01:10 -0700 Subject: Half-breeds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43711216.8060505@brazee.net> Do half-breeds (and infants) have to find their own paths when they die? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 8 13:14:50 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:14:50 -0800 Subject: Half-breeds Message-ID: I find it highly unlikely that a half-breed would be brought to Deathgate. Jon Do half-breeds (and infants) have to find their own paths when they die? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 8 13:25:26 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:25:26 -0800 Subject: Morganti Weapons (a new and different question- ok it's a stretch) Message-ID: I don't see how we know this... We would assume that Godslayer (or at least the Morganti sword part of it) works in Verra's Halls, based on events in Issola, but I don't know of any textev that talks about it in the Halls of Judgment. Jon James Griffin wrote: >The Question- > >Are Morganti weapons effective in the Halls of Judgement? > >I propose they are conditionally- when applied to non-divinities. > > Godslayer has to be effective in the Halls. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:40:22 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:40:22 -0800 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: References: <000601c5e492$7b46e8d0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 11/8/05, J C wrote: > Does creating a morganti blade require the soul or maybe blood of a Taltos? > (the animal, not the family name, though I imagine that Vlad is a Taltos as > well) > > It would explain how morganti do what morganti do---prevent manifestation in > certain planes or places. > Huh. That's exactly backwards from my own Speculation:Great_Weapons. That is, I would posit that Bolk, in and of himself, *was* a Great Weapon. I am not sure how this could be, of course, but I considered it to be empirically demonstrated by the action of his blood. I would not have said that taltos blood *in general* was the essence of Morganti - see below for why. One noodling notion is that perhaps B?lk learned how to become a Great Weapon by somehow absorbing the Morganti weapon-ness that Fenarr owned. But perhaps he simply knew how to change himself to become a Great Weapon at the cost of his life, and did so. To somewhat rebut your suggestion: We know that there are many Morganti weapons, and more than one Great Weapon as well. We have no idea if there is more than one t?ltos animal; there is reason to suspect that all of the t?ltos horses and bulls were one entity, confused by witnesses as being different because they change, and thus were all B?lk. Why would Bolk have donated his blood to the cause of soul-destruction? Recall, too, that he was not always the enemy of the Demon Goddess, and perhaps therefore was not the enemy of the other Gods as well. Another argument against taltos blood being a general ingredient for Morganti weapons is that the Demon Goddess showed disgust when viewing Bolk's bloody heart, but not fear. Shouldn't she have perceived that his blood was the same stuff that went into all of the weapons that could kill her? Sigh. I have more notions, but too much to do. So much speculation, so little time. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Nov 8 14:34:29 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:34:29 -0500 Subject: Half-breeds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A917880-863C-428D-9DFE-D50D8FB42F1F@mac.com> On Nov 8, 2005, at 4:14 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I find it highly unlikely that a half-breed would be brought to > Deathgate. > > Jon > > > > Do half-breeds (and infants) have to find their own paths when they > die? > listinfo/dragaera > > > listinfo/dragaera Sethra got there... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 8 14:55:41 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:55:41 -0800 Subject: Half-breeds Message-ID: #1, We only have circumstantial evidence that she is a half-breed. #2. Sethra is the exception to just about every rule in the books. #3. Since Sethra's death wasn't discovered until hundreds of years after the fact, it's highly questionable whether or not she was "brought to Deathgate" or made it there under her own power. Jon On Nov 8, 2005, at 4:14 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I find it highly unlikely that a half-breed would be brought to > Deathgate. > > Jon > > > > Do half-breeds (and infants) have to find their own paths when they > die? > listinfo/dragaera > > > listinfo/dragaera Sethra got there... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 8 14:55:50 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:55:50 -0800 Subject: Half-breeds Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick 11/08/2005 02:34 PM To: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc: Howard Brazee , dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Half-breeds On Nov 8, 2005, at 4:14 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I find it highly unlikely that a half-breed would be brought to > Deathgate. > > Jon > > > > Do half-breeds (and infants) have to find their own paths when they > die? > listinfo/dragaera > > > listinfo/dragaera Sethra got there... From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 15:01:12 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:01:12 +0000 Subject: Half-breeds In-Reply-To: <6A917880-863C-428D-9DFE-D50D8FB42F1F@mac.com> Message-ID: Now you are just taunting the Dzur. I don't know that you can quantify Sethra as a half breed, as she was around before the founding of the tribe. I would imagine that in the begining, there was not that many "pure" human-dzur crossbreeds, unless the creation of a large breeding group was the Jenoine intent. Instead, I picture the tribes forming based on "family" grouping (ie: caged together) as well as commen personality attributes, and going from there. Of course, most of those with the same attributes would be from the same general genetic mold, hence the names of the tribe. Jeff ----Original Message Follows---- From: Kenneth Gorelick To: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Half-breeds Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:34:29 -0500 Sethra got there... On Nov 8, 2005, at 4:14 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >I find it highly unlikely that a half-breed would be brought to Deathgate. > >Jon > > > >Do half-breeds (and infants) have to find their own paths when they die? >listinfo/dragaera > > >listinfo/dragaera From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 15:45:20 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:45:20 -0800 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: References: <000601c5e492$7b46e8d0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: ::Add missing words:: > > One noodling notion is that perhaps B?lk learned how to become a Great > Weapon by somehow absorbing the Morganti weapon-ness from the Morganti sword > that Fenarr owned. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 15:45:51 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:45:51 -0800 Subject: Godslayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <437138AF.5090403@comcast.net> J C wrote: > So, next question: Am I mostly a Dragon or an Athyra? Or maybe even > a Hawk? I mean, I have the ego of a Dragon, and certainly their > ambition, the curiousity and insufferableness of a Hawk and the > mystical academic bent that fits so many Athyra to a T. > > Jon Well, since both Dragon and Athyra are interested in knowledge as a key to power, while the Hawks are interested in it more as a purely intellectual pursuit, while being aloof and detacthed, I don't see you being Any of these. After all, a Hawk would never post on this mailing list (he'd be too busy observing to participate) and the others would be busy asking "what's in it for me?" I'd say you're more of a Lyorn, pursuing the truth is spite of all opposition, and being an active participant during the pursuit. Sorry, this probably wasn't the question you really wanted answered, but it struck me as more interesting for some reason. ;-) Majikjon (Definitely a Lyorn.) From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 15:47:42 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:47:42 -0800 Subject: quiet In-Reply-To: <30991dd10511080859g12c42eb2oa7faa1972d20841f@mail.gmail.com> References: <30991dd10511080859g12c42eb2oa7faa1972d20841f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4371391E.5030401@comcast.net> Sethra wrote: >On 11/1/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > > >>Rather quiet, no? What happened to everyone? >>Maybe Steve should tease us with some of Dzur. >> >> > > >ooooo that would be sweet! > >-- >Sethra >"I am not an adventurer by choice but by fate." >-- Vincent Van Gogh (1853-90), Dutch postimpressionist painter >______________________________________________ > > I dunno, I'm still waiting for Paarfi to write the comprehensive Biography of Sethra Lavode... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Nov 8 15:57:57 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:57:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quiet Message-ID: > Jon Lincicum: > I dunno, I'm still waiting for Paarfi to write the comprehensive > Biography of Sethra Lavode... Make that the autobiography. Shades of Stein/Toklas. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 16:04:00 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:04:00 -0800 Subject: Quiet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43713CF0.1080600@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >>Jon Lincicum: >> >> > > > >>I dunno, I'm still waiting for Paarfi to write the comprehensive >>Biography of Sethra Lavode... >> >> > > > >Make that the autobiography. > > >Shades of Stein/Toklas. > > > Okay, that works too, I guess. MajikJon From bryann at bryann.net Tue Nov 8 16:06:13 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:06:13 -0600 Subject: Athyra and Savn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c5e4c1$657dee20$6501a8c0@dell> > I apologize for nitpicking, but since you wrote "Svan" > throughout - his name is in fact "Savn", S-A-V-N. Spelling never was my fortay. Bryan From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:28:29 2005 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 00:28:29 +0000 Subject: Athyra and Savn In-Reply-To: <000b01c5e4c1$657dee20$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: I have been known to sip on a forty. . . . . Jeff (can't. . . . . . .resist. . . . . . .bad.. . . . . pun . . . . . .) ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Bryan Newell" To: "'Davdi Silverrock'" ,"'Dragaera Mailing List'" Subject: RE: Athyra and Savn Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:06:13 -0600 Spelling never was my fortay. Bryan From kdvorenkamp at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:34:03 2005 From: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com (Kendra Vorenkamp) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:34:03 -0500 Subject: Half-breeds In-Reply-To: References: <6A917880-863C-428D-9DFE-D50D8FB42F1F@mac.com> Message-ID: <38aa89f30511081634q2e359a15x8734d0593e7ca9ca@mail.gmail.com> Since we're all speculating about Sethra, I'm going to throw out a couple of "what-ifs" What if Sethra were.... ...Vlad's distant grandmother? ...the individual who founded both the house of Dzur and Dragon? Well, any thoughts on that? From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:50:20 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:50:20 -0800 Subject: Godslayer In-Reply-To: <437138AF.5090403@comcast.net> References: <437138AF.5090403@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > After all, a Hawk would never post on this mailing list I nearly think that you are profoundly and entirely incorrect in this. >(he'd be too busy observing to participate) I think you have misunderstood Hawks. You appear to be generalizing, not from one example, but from a misapprehension that observers can never do anything besides observe; an oddly restrictive thesis. Hmph. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:56:25 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:56:25 -0700 Subject: Godslayer In-Reply-To: References: <437138AF.5090403@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511081656h497159fk4e4aed42979010b2@mail.gmail.com> On 11/8/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/8/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > After all, a Hawk would never post on this mailing list > > I nearly think that you are profoundly and entirely incorrect in this. > > >(he'd be too busy observing to participate) > > I think you have misunderstood Hawks. You appear to be generalizing, > not from one example, but from a misapprehension that observers can > never do anything besides observe; an oddly restrictive thesis. Actually, it sounds to me like a generalization from the onion metaphor in Yendi. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue Nov 8 19:00:26 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:00:26 EST Subject: Quiet (Spoilers) Message-ID: <250.919e54.30a2c04a@aol.com> Hi, bryann at bryann.net wrote on 11/8/2005 1:31:22 PM : >1. How did Arra manage to use witchcraft while Laszlo could not? Arra works for Verra. Once Arra realized something was up, she contacted Verra and got help. >4. Is this perhaps what Verra was hinting at? I think so too. 6. Had he forgotten about Awtla and Sireng? I think Laszlo called them his friends--not his familiars. I think Awtla and Sireng are Loiosh and Rocza in a past life. And whichever was Loiosh's prior incarnation would not have wanted to be the familiar of anyone except a prior incarnation of Vlad. So they are all just friends. 7. I am nearly convinced that the narrator of Athyra is none other than Savn himself. I think so too. I can see Vlad trying to help Savn's family out with money and they refuse to take charity. So Vlad or Kiera set up a deal with the owner of the shiny box for Savn to tell his story. 9. I don't know how Brokedown Palace fits in with all this. Bolk told Miklos to write down what happened. Brokedown Palace, Chapter 17, page 266. The manuscript could have been read into the shiny box. Hopefully, Miklos got some of the gold. Bye. Linda G. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 17:37:53 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:37:53 -0800 Subject: Godslayer In-Reply-To: References: <437138AF.5090403@comcast.net> Message-ID: <437152F1.2080907@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 11/8/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >>After all, a Hawk would never post on this mailing list >> >> > >I nearly think that you are profoundly and entirely incorrect in this. > > > >>(he'd be too busy observing to participate) >> >> > >I think you have misunderstood Hawks. You appear to be generalizing, >not from one example, but from a misapprehension that observers can >never do anything besides observe; an oddly restrictive thesis. > >Hmph. > > Well, it's possible, I admit. From a quantum physics point of view, in fact, the observer is a participant merely by observing. Given Daymar as an example, in fact, I would be forced to reconsider my position. He seems emminently preparred to butt in from time to time. (to time, to time, to time, to time...) Jon (No fair! You changed the outcome by measuring it! --Professor Hubert Farnsworth) From steve at romlin.com Tue Nov 8 23:33:52 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:33:52 +0100 Subject: Soul destroying Message-ID: About whether Morganti weapons actually *destroy* souls: I'm surprised nobody's brought up the rather graphic (if perhaps metaphorical) description of what happened to Teldra's soul at the end of Issola. She was stabbed with an ordinary, if rather powerful, Morganti dagger. What Vlad "sees" when he enters the dagger psychically (filtered, perhaps, through the perception of Spellbreaker), is little grey shards of soul-stuff. So that soul is definitely not in one piece any more. Maybe Vlad caught it early before those pieces rotted away, we don't know that. He's able to gather the fresh pieces back together and wrap them up with a bit of his own, but Teldra doesn't magically reappear, not even psychically. Though we're told she will later. So it's more than just putting the pieces back together that restores it. Possibly more analogous to cutting a person into several pieces -- even if you put the pieces back together, it takes some powerful hooh-hah indeed to make that person walk again, and they will likely never be the same. So does a morganti weapon destroy a soul? Well, it certainly starts digesting it, and probably if left to its own, continues to do so. Is that destruction permanent? Left open, but I'd say in most cases yes. Teldra may be a lucky partial-exception, but I don't think anyone will volunteer to be the second test case of her experience. --Steve the Younger From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 9 06:10:14 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 06:10:14 -0800 Subject: Quiet Message-ID: How can Paarfi write an autobiography of Sethra? Are you saying Paarfi is secretly Sethra Lavode? ;-) MajikJon > Jon Lincicum: > I dunno, I'm still waiting for Paarfi to write the comprehensive > Biography of Sethra Lavode... Make that the autobiography. Shades of Stein/Toklas. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 9 07:47:31 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:47:31 -0700 Subject: Quiet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43721A13.40702@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >How can Paarfi write an autobiography of Sethra? > >Are you saying Paarfi is secretly Sethra Lavode? ;-) > >MajikJon > > Can an undead have a ghost-writer? From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Nov 9 08:35:20 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:35:20 -0800 Subject: Quiet (Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <250.919e54.30a2c04a@aol.com> Message-ID: <0aa101c5e54b$93167e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > 6. Had he forgotten about Awtla and Sireng? > > I think Laszlo called them his friends--not his familiars. I > think Awtla > and Sireng are Loiosh and Rocza in a past life. And > whichever was Loiosh's > prior incarnation would not have wanted to be the familiar of > anyone except > a prior incarnation of Vlad. So they are all just friends. Awtla and Sireng are an odd exception to the rules. As for them being familiars, I have little doubt that they are. Paarfi doesn't use the word "familiar" because it's an Eastern word and an Eastern concept. He doesn't really understand what it means. "friends" is the closest he can get to it. Even if Laszlo doesn't mean a "familiar" in exactly the way that Vlad means it, he clearly means something similar to it when he's describing his relationship to Awtla and Sireng. Laszlo is surprised and incredulous when Morollan claims that he has the same relationship to Verra that Laszlo has to Awtla and Sireng. Of course, in the Vladiad we are told that you get only one familiar and that Blackwand is Morollan's familiar. The inconsistency between the two accounts is another one of those mysteries that occur when comparing the Vladiad to the Paarfiad. There are hints that maybe Morollan is Vera's lover, certainly that he is what an Easterner would think of as a "high priest". It seems unlikely that this is the sort of relationship Morollan was referring to,though, when he compared his relationship with Verra to Laszlo's relationship to his "pets". Still, claiming your patron god as your familiar is the sort of audaciousness that typifies Morollan. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Nov 9 08:46:32 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:46:32 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0aa201c5e54d$23a18e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > So does a morganti weapon destroy a soul? Well, it certainly starts > digesting it, and probably if left to its own, continues to > do so. Is that > destruction permanent? Left open, but I'd say in most cases > yes. Teldra may > be a lucky partial-exception, but I don't think anyone will > volunteer to be > the second test case of her experience. > Teldra is gone. Vlad makes that point multiple times. The bits of "Teldraness" that are left behind are more like echos of what Teldra was. By gathering them together, he's not re-assembling Teldra's soul. It's more like he's taking a snapshot of her personality and imprinting it onto GodSlayer's nascent personality. He names the knife Lady Teldra but he doesn't mean it literally. He means that it "feels" like Lady Teldra. If it communicates with him (we don't know just how a Great Weapon interacts with its bearer, though Sethra appears to be implying that they are able to communicate on a personal level) then he might perceive it to have Teldra's personality and/or voice. Even so, this would just be a simulacrum; an artifact of the process that created Godslayer. Teldra's soul, the thing that made her "Teldra", is gone forever. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 09:22:18 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:22:18 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <0aa201c5e54d$23a18e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0aa201c5e54d$23a18e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 11/9/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Teldra is gone. Vlad makes that point multiple times. The bits of > "Teldraness" that are left behind are more like echos of what Teldra was. By > gathering them together, he's not re-assembling Teldra's soul. It's more > like he's taking a snapshot of her personality and imprinting it onto > GodSlayer's nascent personality. He names the knife Lady Teldra but he > doesn't mean it literally. He means that it "feels" like Lady Teldra. If it > communicates with him (we don't know just how a Great Weapon interacts with > its bearer, though Sethra appears to be implying that they are able to > communicate on a personal level) then he might perceive it to have Teldra's > personality and/or voice. Even so, this would just be a simulacrum; an > artifact of the process that created Godslayer. Teldra's soul, the thing > that made her "Teldra", is gone forever. > > Well, perhaps. We shall have a better idea after we read /Dzur/. Which reminds me, though, that one of the things that Vlad really ought to do, regardless of whether Teldra's soul is wholly or partially part of Godslayer, is be there to participate when her former body is placed in the Blood River, under the statue of the issola, to be given to Deathgate. It would be appropriate, after all. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 9 09:38:58 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:38:58 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: I prefer to think of the "Tendrils" of Teldra (Can I say "Teldrals" without getting smacked?) as being more like "seeds" of a soul, that are now "planted" in Godslayer. Does this mean that Godslayer will ever BE Teldra? Of course not, but that the sentience and vitality of soul that will eventually emerge (What Sethra refers to as "waking up") is going to grow from the distilled essence of what WAS Teldra in every important respect. Majikjon > So does a morganti weapon destroy a soul? Well, it certainly starts > digesting it, and probably if left to its own, continues to > do so. Is that > destruction permanent? Left open, but I'd say in most cases > yes. Teldra may > be a lucky partial-exception, but I don't think anyone will > volunteer to be > the second test case of her experience. > Teldra is gone. Vlad makes that point multiple times. The bits of "Teldraness" that are left behind are more like echos of what Teldra was. By gathering them together, he's not re-assembling Teldra's soul. It's more like he's taking a snapshot of her personality and imprinting it onto GodSlayer's nascent personality. He names the knife Lady Teldra but he doesn't mean it literally. He means that it "feels" like Lady Teldra. If it communicates with him (we don't know just how a Great Weapon interacts with its bearer, though Sethra appears to be implying that they are able to communicate on a personal level) then he might perceive it to have Teldra's personality and/or voice. Even so, this would just be a simulacrum; an artifact of the process that created Godslayer. Teldra's soul, the thing that made her "Teldra", is gone forever. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 9 09:42:09 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 10:42:09 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <437234F1.4040504@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >I prefer to think of the "Tendrils" of Teldra (Can I say "Teldrals" >without getting smacked?) as being more like "seeds" of a soul, that are >now "planted" in Godslayer. Does this mean that Godslayer will ever BE >Teldra? Of course not, but that the sentience and vitality of soul that >will eventually emerge (What Sethra refers to as "waking up") is going to >grow from the distilled essence of what WAS Teldra in every important >respect. > > >Majikjon > > Which is what happens in ordinary reincarnation as well. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Nov 9 10:17:48 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:17:48 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001a01c5e559$e456a1e0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Davdi Silverrock writes: > Which reminds me, though, that one of the things that Vlad really > ought to do, regardless of whether Teldra's soul is wholly or > partially part of Godslayer, is be there to participate when her > former body is placed in the Blood River, under the statue of the > issola, to be given to Deathgate. > > It would be appropriate, after all. My impression is that this particular nicety isn't performed for those unfortunates killed by Morganti. What would be the point? C. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 9 10:38:20 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:38:20 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: We know it was done for Napper at the end of Dragon... "The Point" I think is one of honor and respect for a fallen comrade. Very Dragon. MajikJon "Casey Rousseau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 11/09/2005 10:17 AM To: "'Dragaera List'" cc: Subject: RE: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Davdi Silverrock writes: > Which reminds me, though, that one of the things that Vlad really > ought to do, regardless of whether Teldra's soul is wholly or > partially part of Godslayer, is be there to participate when her > former body is placed in the Blood River, under the statue of the > issola, to be given to Deathgate. > > It would be appropriate, after all. My impression is that this particular nicety isn't performed for those unfortunates killed by Morganti. What would be the point? C. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 9 11:09:12 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:09:12 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43724958.20502@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >We know it was done for Napper at the end of Dragon... > >"The Point" I think is one of honor and respect for a fallen comrade. Very >Dragon. > >MajikJon > > I'm not sure why it is "respectful" to do what we do with corpses. I suspect a lot of it is left-over from old religions where the body was necessary. Dragaerans don't have the same attitude towards gods and religion as we do - they see it as part of life, and thus would likely have different attitudes about what to do with corpses. Dragaerans have strong feelings though about killing one's soul though, but I've seen no evidence they have strong feelings about what happens when a body is lost so that it cannot be deposited. And I don't see that there is a big industry in moving corpses. Serfs have to believe that they will reincarnate, even if their despotic rulers won't pay for the transportation of their corpses, or if their corpses get eaten by wild animals. Maybe it takes longer without a head start and a map. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 9 11:24:24 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:24:24 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: This conversation seems very similar to one Vlad had with Virt e'Terics at the end of Dragon... Virt: "And I've heard about Napper. We're going to have services for him this evening. Aelburr and I would like you to help us annoint him." Vlad: "What's the point? There's nothing left for Deathgate." Virt: "I think you know what the point is." Seems pretty clear, to me. Majikjon Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >We know it was done for Napper at the end of Dragon... > >"The Point" I think is one of honor and respect for a fallen comrade. Very >Dragon. > >MajikJon > > I'm not sure why it is "respectful" to do what we do with corpses. I suspect a lot of it is left-over from old religions where the body was necessary. Dragaerans don't have the same attitude towards gods and religion as we do - they see it as part of life, and thus would likely have different attitudes about what to do with corpses. Dragaerans have strong feelings though about killing one's soul though, but I've seen no evidence they have strong feelings about what happens when a body is lost so that it cannot be deposited. And I don't see that there is a big industry in moving corpses. Serfs have to believe that they will reincarnate, even if their despotic rulers won't pay for the transportation of their corpses, or if their corpses get eaten by wild animals. Maybe it takes longer without a head start and a map. From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Nov 9 11:51:46 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:51:46 -0600 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> > >"The Point" I think is one of honor and respect for a fallen comrade. > > I'm not sure why it is "respectful" to do what we do with corpses. I > suspect a lot of it is left-over from old religions where the body was > necessary. On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 11:24:24AM -0800, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > This conversation seems very similar to one Vlad had with Virt e'Terics at > the end of Dragon... > > > Virt: "And I've heard about Napper. We're going to have services for him > this evening. Aelburr and I would like you to help us annoint him." > Vlad: "What's the point? There's nothing left for Deathgate." > Virt: "I think you know what the point is." > > > Seems pretty clear, to me. > > Majikjon Exactly. Funerals of any kind are for the people left behind, not for the dead. Kat From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 9 12:06:52 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:06:52 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> References: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> Message-ID: <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> Tsarren wrote: >Exactly. Funerals of any kind are for the people left behind, not for the >dead. > > The services are. (although people such as Churchill planned his own funeral). Whether the body is embalmed, buried, or whatever is left over from old religions. If taking the body to Deathgate is that important, there will be a big industry to handle this, and people would be as concerned about whether it happens as they are about being killed by a Morganti weapon. Holding corpses for ransom could be used as a weapon. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 12:22:33 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:22:33 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > This conversation seems very similar to one Vlad had with Virt e'Terics at > the end of Dragon... > > > Virt: "And I've heard about Napper. We're going to have services for him > this evening. Aelburr and I would like you to help us annoint him." > Vlad: "What's the point? There's nothing left for Deathgate." > Virt: "I think you know what the point is." > > > Seems pretty clear, to me. > Precisely. I can most certainly see that if Vlad were to protest to Teldra about the funeral, "Why exactly are we doing this? You, your soul, is in here, right by my side, for all practical purposes", Teldra's response would be: "Vlad, death rituals are for the living, not for the dead. This is for all of my friends to say goodbye to the person they once knew; the one they are never going to see again. After all, it's not like they can all bind with this Great Weapon. It is the courteous thing to do." She might even add something like "And it's a chance for me as well, to say goodbye to the life I once had, which I can never have again. This transformation I have undergone is strange, and very different from my previous existence. This ritual may help me adjust." From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 12:25:43 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:25:43 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <0aa201c5e54d$23a18e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0aa201c5e54d$23a18e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511091225y741a8558j349fae0fd5626ec1@mail.gmail.com> On 11/9/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > personality and/or voice. Even so, this would just be a simulacrum; an > artifact of the process that created Godslayer. Teldra's soul, the thing > that made her "Teldra", is gone forever. > Sethra may or may not have been hinting otherwise when she mentioned Lady Teldra's pending "awakening." Since Vlad, at the time of Issola (when did he dictate that /Issola/, anyway?), still didn't know what Sethra meant, he doesn't know as much as Sethra does about Great Weapons and his opinions are still suspect. I suspect you're largely right about the personality snapshot being static, but given that Godslayer was constructed out of Vlad and Teldra's souls, and given how he refers to it as "she", I'm not so sure that he does not mean it literally when he refers to it as "Lady Teldra." Although she is still a little "less than dead." Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 12:26:44 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:26:44 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511091226i1b3ae0fax161afe9226cefc1b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > I prefer to think of the "Tendrils" of Teldra (Can I say "Teldrals" > without getting smacked?) as being more like "seeds" of a soul, that are > now "planted" in Godslayer. Does this mean that Godslayer will ever BE > Teldra? Of course not, but that the sentience and vitality of soul that > will eventually emerge (What Sethra refers to as "waking up") is going to > grow from the distilled essence of what WAS Teldra in every important > respect. > > > Majikjon Hey, I like this idea. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From st.shafer at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:55:26 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:55:26 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511091226i1b3ae0fax161afe9226cefc1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0511091226i1b3ae0fax161afe9226cefc1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77369c850511091355j53c98007ud5c3107d535b2e8b@mail.gmail.com> This is changing the topic a bit, but do you think that having a great weapon will effect Vlad's mortality as well (vis-a-vie his longevity as effected by age)? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 9 14:01:53 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <77369c850511091355j53c98007ud5c3107d535b2e8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0511091226i1b3ae0fax161afe9226cefc1b@mail.gmail.com> <77369c850511091355j53c98007ud5c3107d535b2e8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Stephen Shafer wrote: > (vis-a-vie his longevity as effected by age)? Forgive the affected spelling quibble, but you want "vis-a-vis" - "face-to-face" - not "face-to-life". The trailing vowel makes the first "s" audible. Or maybe you intended the pun, in which case I bow in your general direction. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 9 14:02:36 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:02:36 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: Given the way Vlad lives, and the things he's accomplishing in his life, I don't expect this to be a factor, as I don't expect him to survive the series. Maybe this is a little too "Greek Tragedy", but it feels to me like he's a character who is marked for death. I dunno. I kinda hope I'm wrong, cause I sorta like the guy, but he has this unhealthy tendancy towards doing the right thing and putting himself in terrible peril as a result. Some day it's gonna get him. Majikjon This is changing the topic a bit, but do you think that having a great weapon will effect Vlad's mortality as well (vis-a-vie his longevity as effected by age)? From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Nov 9 14:09:13 2005 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:09:13 -0600 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> References: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20051109220912.GH15026@Durandal> On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 01:06:52PM -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > Tsarren wrote: > > >Exactly. Funerals of any kind are for the people left behind, not for the > >dead. > > > > > The services are. (although people such as Churchill planned his own > funeral). Whether the body is embalmed, buried, or whatever is left > over from old religions. Try telling someone irl that the next time they lose a relative, they can just save the expense of a burial or cremation by putting the body in the trash bin the next time their trash service comes by (after all, we throw meat scraps in the garbage all the time, it's not like landfills coundn't handle bodies). Leaving aside the legality of such, I bet their response is going to be to question your sanity. No human culture of which I know, past or present, has ever discarded the bodies of their dead in their middens, despite this being the most practical thing to do (you'd have to bury or burn mass casualities from a war or epidemic, but that's an exception). What happens to the remains most definitely is for the people left behind - atheists care what's done with them too, so it's not as if it's just a religious thing. What is done with the remains is a part of the services. Kat From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 9 15:27:47 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:27:47 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <437285F3.3070604@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Given the way Vlad lives, and the things he's accomplishing in his life, I >don't expect this to be a factor, as I don't expect him to survive the >series. > >Maybe this is a little too "Greek Tragedy", but it feels to me like he's a >character who is marked for death. > >I dunno. I kinda hope I'm wrong, cause I sorta like the guy, but he has >this unhealthy tendancy towards doing the right thing and putting himself >in terrible peril as a result. Some day it's gonna get him. > >Majikjon > > Which won't necessarily end this utility of the GW for him. From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Nov 9 17:15:20 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:15:20 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> References: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051109200850.02531978@cox.net> At 03:06 PM 11/9/2005, Howard Brazee wrote: >Tsarren wrote: > >>Exactly. Funerals of any kind are for the people left behind, not for the >>dead. >The services are. (although people such as Churchill planned his >own funeral). Whether the body is embalmed, buried, or whatever >is left over from old religions. > >If taking the body to Deathgate is that important, there will be a >big industry to handle this, and people would be as concerned about >whether it happens as they are about being killed by a Morganti weapon. >Holding corpses for ransom could be used as a weapon. I'm thinking about Dragaeran vital statistics--we see no evidence that Dragaerans have more than a very few children (more closely approximating modern Western demographics than anything else, it would seem). Given their very long life, one would think that births and deaths are very rare occurrences. I wouldn't expect that any kind of industry for the handling of the dead exists in Dragaera at all. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Nov 9 17:24:46 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:24:46 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051109200850.02531978@cox.net> References: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051109200850.02531978@cox.net> Message-ID: <4372A15E.7030204@comcast.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> If taking the body to Deathgate is that important, there will be a >> big industry to handle this, and people would be as concerned about >> whether it happens as they are about being killed by a Morganti weapon. >> Holding corpses for ransom could be used as a weapon. > > > I'm thinking about Dragaeran vital statistics--we see no evidence that > Dragaerans have more than a very few children (more closely > approximating modern Western demographics than anything else, it would > seem). Given their very long life, one would think that births and > deaths are very rare occurrences. I wouldn't expect that any kind of > industry for the handling of the dead exists in Dragaera at all. Add to that the fact that most deaths probably occur in battle (sorcery preventing most deaths by illnress, and accidental deaths resulting (in most cases) in revivification), and most armies probably arrange for the disposition of bodies (and threrby, souls) as a part of their general operation . (This certainly is how it seemed to work for Morrolan's army in Dragon.) I doubt that the "holding of ransom" of bodies could really be common enough to matter (any more than the attempt to steal Lincoln's body for ransom was in the late 19th century). Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 20:29:24 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:29:24 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511092028j5cfc504exd82e3e14a967bff1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051109200850.02531978@cox.net> <4372A15E.7030204@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0511092028j5cfc504exd82e3e14a967bff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511092029v66c57081j6b57b5e3112cb691@mail.gmail.com> [Re-sent to list. Sorry, I hit the "Reply" button instead of "Reply All".] On 11/9/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Add to that the fact that most deaths probably occur in battle (sorcery > preventing most deaths by illnress, and accidental deaths resulting (in > most cases) in revivification), and most armies probably arrange for the > disposition of bodies (and threrby, souls) as a part of their general > operation . (This certainly is how it seemed to work for Morrolan's army > in Dragon.) You're thinking like a noble. Revivification, as we see from Yendi, is a very expensive operation for anybody but a crime lord; and we see from Athyra that most Teckla won't rely on sorcery so much as folk medicine to prevent illness. Vlad has a very skewed view of Dragaeran society. SKZB has said that the idea of a character really "knowing what's going on" in his society is implausible to him. > I doubt that the "holding of ransom" of bodies could really be common > enough to matter (any more than the attempt to steal Lincoln's body for > ransom was in the late 19th century). Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scs at di.org Thu Nov 10 05:37:46 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:37:46 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051109200850.02531978@cox.net> References: <20051109195146.GF15026@Durandal> <437256DC.8080000@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051109200850.02531978@cox.net> Message-ID: <20051110133746.GD8774@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 08:15:20PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > I'm thinking about Dragaeran vital statistics--we see no evidence > that Dragaerans have more than a very few children (more closely > approximating modern Western demographics than anything else, it > would seem). Given their very long life, one would think that births > and deaths are very rare occurrences. . . . IMHO this is an area where Dragaeran textev just doesn't hold up. Given the apparent small family size, relative rarity of marriage, and amazingly high number of people getting killed, textev inevitably leads one to the conclusion that Dragaerans are in a steep population implosion. -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 06:33:16 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:33:16 +0100 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <20051110133746.GD8774@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons wrote: >To: "Peter H. Granzeau" >CC: Brust list >Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:37:46 -0500 > >On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 08:15:20PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > I'm thinking about Dragaeran vital statistics--we see no evidence > > that Dragaerans have more than a very few children (more closely > > approximating modern Western demographics than anything else, it > > would seem). Given their very long life, one would think that births > > and deaths are very rare occurrences. . . . > >IMHO this is an area where Dragaeran textev just doesn't hold up. Given >the apparent small family size, relative rarity of marriage, and amazingly >high number of people getting killed, textev inevitably leads one to the >conclusion that Dragaerans are in a steep population implosion. Yes, a high number of people being killed _among those we meet in the books_, but who are they? They're soldiers and criminals and for both of these occupations that's part of the job description. I assume that Chreotha tailors don't get killed left and right, unless they fall foul of an easterner with a moustach. ;) From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Nov 10 07:03:51 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:03:51 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: Basically the Empire breaks down into three groups, which gives us some evidence for population trends: 1. Teckla. By far the most numerous. Our best view of what Teckla life is like for most of them actually comes from Athyra... The "City Teckla" are generally the exception, not the rule. Given Smallcliff as an example of a "typical Teckla Village" we see the young girls are all agog over Ori, and Savn himself had eyes for Lova. Practically every adult in the village is a part of a family, and since they are farmers, we can probably take it for granted that Savn's family (where there are two children) is probably the smallest that is common among the flax-farming residents of the community. Given that each "child" is probably ready to marry after only 100-150 years, and the life expectancy is in excess of two millenia, I don't think you can say that this group is shrinking. 2. High Nobility. The least numerous. Contrary to what we see in the earlier Vlad books, however, most high nobility probably live on their own lands, rather than in the big cities. (Adron was this way, Morrolan is this way, and there is just too much territory in the Empire to manage if it were otherwise.) We have few clear examples of what family life is like for these folks, but for the landed gentry, they certainly have the means to raise a family of any size they like. Marriage among these folks might seem to be fairly rare, but we do have plenty of examples; Khaavren and Daro, Shant and Lewchin, Roannac and Malypon, Ibron and Sennya, Vernoi and Loudin, Rollondar and his wife, etc. (Adron and Verra probably doesn't fall under this category very well...) At least five of these relationships have produced at least one child. (Piro, Roanna, Ibronka, Zerika, Morrolan). Again, given the life expectancies of those involved, this sort of population increase might actually prove problematic in a few centuries... There's only so much land to be divied up. (The nobles of the PI period are actually lucky in this regard, as there are doubtless huge tracts of land (heh) that are left unclaimed from the Plagues and famines of the Interregnum) 3. Lower nobility (the bourgeoise). This accounts for most of the the population of the noble houses. (As high nobility is only a small portion of a select few houses). This group has the least textev to represent it, as many of these houses (Jhegaala, Chreotha, Tslamoth, Iorich, Hawk) have barely appeared in the books at all. If under-population is a problem for any group, this would be the most likely candidate. The means of these folks to raise children will be less, and most of these folks probably live in the large cities like Adrilankha; meaning they spend most of their time working in a service capacity, or as merchants. This would appear to leave little time for love. (It's worth noting, however, that these same factors are present in our own society, and most of us manage to make the time for romance.) Also, bear in mind that "People getting killed" is not NEARLY as common in the real world as it is in, say, a James Bond movie. The Vlad books and the Khaavren books are both adventure series, and death will seem more common than it really is when trying to view the world of Dragaera with only this to go on. (How would Paarfi react to our culture if all he had to go on was "Die Hard", "Under Seige" and "Rambo"?) Majikjon. (Phew. Sorry about the long post, I kinda went off there.) On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 08:15:20PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > I'm thinking about Dragaeran vital statistics--we see no evidence > that Dragaerans have more than a very few children (more closely > approximating modern Western demographics than anything else, it > would seem). Given their very long life, one would think that births > and deaths are very rare occurrences. . . . IMHO this is an area where Dragaeran textev just doesn't hold up. Given the apparent small family size, relative rarity of marriage, and amazingly high number of people getting killed, textev inevitably leads one to the conclusion that Dragaerans are in a steep population implosion. -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From frank at exit.com Thu Nov 10 07:12:43 2005 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:12:43 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1131635563.33894.11.camel@realtime.exit.com> You know, I knew spoilers were bad, but I didn't realize that they were _that_ bad. :-P -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From scs at di.org Thu Nov 10 07:06:56 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:06:56 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <20051110133746.GD8774@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20051110150656.GA9012@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 03:33:16PM +0100, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Steve Simmons wrote: > >IMHO this is an area where Dragaeran textev just doesn't hold up. Given > >the apparent small family size, relative rarity of marriage, and amazingly > >high number of people getting killed, textev inevitably leads one to the > >conclusion that Dragaerans are in a steep population implosion. > > Yes, a high number of people being killed _among those we meet in the > books_, but who are they? > They're soldiers and criminals and for both of these occupations that's > part of the job description. I assume that Chreotha tailors don't get > killed left and right, unless they fall foul of an easterner with a > moustach. ;) IMHO it's worth a deeper look at that sorting by house, not by class. Dragons and Dzur kill at the drop of a hat. Nearly all we've met of either group are unmarried or married without children. Given the death rate we see, it's completely unsupportable. Either there are lots of Dragon and Dzur marriages/births/divorces happening offstage, or they're in a severe population decline. Off the top of my head, I couldn't name a single Dragon who has more than two children. Given the Dragon death rate in war, etc, they probably should be averaging 8 or 10. And the Dzur should be even higher. The Teckla supposedly have larger families, and we get to see a fair amount of typical Teckla life in Aythra (er, the one with Savn). If memory serves, it's still all very small families - especially since Teckla are often cannon fodder for their lords.. Now mind you, I'm not sitting up nights worrying about this. The suspension of disbelief isn't hard, and I'm fine with that. of suspec -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Nov 10 07:21:55 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:21:55 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying Issola Spoiler Message-ID: Look out, this is a morganti thread. Majikjon You know, I knew spoilers were bad, but I didn't realize that they were _that_ bad. :-P -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From carpovita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 07:38:01 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:38:01 -0700 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008001c5e60c$bc3e1b30$0200a8c0@Carpovita> not only are there recipes but Klava and Klava mugs (with the recipe writ upon) them will be available at the Brust fan summit next May -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of dovekie Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:42 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: first post, first question Hello, I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before, but... Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? From carpovita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 07:53:04 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:53:04 -0700 Subject: Quiet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008501c5e60e$d66fa9e0$0200a8c0@Carpovita> why mot? she's everyone else -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 7:10 AM To: Philip Hart Cc: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info; Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: Quiet How can Paarfi write an autobiography of Sethra? Are you saying Paarfi is secretly Sethra Lavode? ;-) MajikJon > Jon Lincicum: > I dunno, I'm still waiting for Paarfi to write the comprehensive > Biography of Sethra Lavode... Make that the autobiography. Shades of Stein/Toklas. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 08:12:51 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:12:51 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <20051110150656.GA9012@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20051110133746.GD8774@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20051110150656.GA9012@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511100812s5680afaj87f8bb437ce66b17@mail.gmail.com> On 11/10/05, Steve Simmons wrote: > IMHO it's worth a deeper look at that sorting by house, not by class. > Dragons and Dzur kill at the drop of a hat. Nearly all we've met of > either group are unmarried or married without children. Given the > death rate we see, it's completely unsupportable. Either there are Ah, but the kill at the drop of a hat on a _Dragaeran_ time scale. Khaavren kills a lot of people over the course of his lifetime, for instance, and in fact kills many people in TPG; but I believe FHYA notes that at that point Khaavren hadn't fought a duel in something like a hundred years. Battles between Jhereg and the Phoenix Guard may perhaps be "common," but that may mean "once every fifty years," which is half a generation. There are problems with this interpretation, particularly with technological progress and the uncanny (relative) rapidity with which things occur around Vlad, but I believe it is the "cool" interpretation, i.e. part of the necessary background for cool stuff to happen in. > The Teckla supposedly have larger families, and we get to see a fair > amount of typical Teckla life in Aythra (er, the one with Savn). If > memory serves, it's still all very small families - especially since > Teckla are often cannon fodder for their lords.. Well, they also use Easterners. > Now mind you, I'm not sitting up nights worrying about this. The > suspension of disbelief isn't hard, and I'm fine with that. I guess I just have to suspend my belief in a different place, i.e. the slow pace of Dragaeran society. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 10 08:36:04 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:36:04 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511100812s5680afaj87f8bb437ce66b17@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051110133746.GD8774@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20051110150656.GA9012@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <2ddbda5f0511100812s5680afaj87f8bb437ce66b17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >> Now mind you, I'm not sitting up nights worrying about this. The >> suspension of disbelief isn't hard, and I'm fine with that. > >I guess I just have to suspend my belief in a different place, i.e. >the slow pace of Dragaeran society. > >Max Wilson > > Steve based Dragaerans on fantasy using elves - but with realistic life styles. The long life spans don't really work with these life styles, but since that was a basic of elf fantasy, that was what he needed to incorporate. We haven't seen much in the way of youth activity. We don't see 50 year old Tekla gangs being bored out of their skulls with still being children. But we do see grown-ups who are ready to fight, kill, and die at the drop of a hat. These aren't Dragaerans who have had kids and can afford to die. On the other hand, we have only seen enough of the feudal society to know that it exists. There could be a lot of serfs out there producing babies of all of the houses. But they aren't interesting unless the city revolution moves to the country. If we want realistic views of what immortality means, we would be better off reading Wil McCarthy. If we want to play with concepts in myth and literature, we should read Brust. I enjoy both. Obviously Steve enjoys playing with myths and literature - and we get to go along with the ride. From steve at romlin.com Thu Nov 10 11:47:41 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:47:41 +0100 Subject: Population implosion Message-ID: > > > IMHO this is an area where Dragaeran textev just doesn't hold up. Given > the apparent small family size, relative rarity of marriage, and amazingly > high number of people getting killed, textev inevitably leads one to the > conclusion that Dragaerans are in a steep population implosion. Given that each Dragaeran lives 3000 years, of which perhaps 1500 are possibly child-bearing, you would have to have a pretty steep die-off to prevent a population EXPLOSION. -Steve the Younger From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 11:55:47 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:55:47 -0700 Subject: Population implosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511101155m5cc1a8b9u89b509c651286c0b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/10/05, Steve Rapaport wrote: > Given that each Dragaeran lives 3000 years, of which perhaps 1500 are > possibly child-bearing, you would have to have a pretty steep die-off to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > prevent a population EXPLOSION. Like the Interregnum? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Nov 10 11:58:34 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:58:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Population implosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > Given that each Dragaeran lives 3000 years, of which perhaps 1500 are > possibly child-bearing, you would have to have a pretty steep die-off to > prevent a population EXPLOSION. More important than length of fertility is the onset. It takes hundreds of years for a Dragaeran to become a grandparent, only about twenty-five for an Easterner. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 14:00:27 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:00:27 +0000 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> Message-ID: I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in other words, considering a 2500 year life span. What do you guys think? Jon From pulmon at mac.com Thu Nov 10 14:08:35 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:08:35 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73A441C8-8079-43CC-B775-281FCDBAF439@mac.com> On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, J C wrote: > I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 > years of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, > you could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. > > Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a > century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, > in other words, considering a 2500 year life span. > > What do you guys think? > > Jon > > Maybe they are "Teckla twins". From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 14:14:21 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:14:21 +0100 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <73A441C8-8079-43CC-B775-281FCDBAF439@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >To: J C >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:08:35 -0500 > > >On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, J C wrote: > >>I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years of >>age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you could have >>a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. >> >>Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a century, >>I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in other words, >>considering a 2500 year life span. >> >>What do you guys think? >> >>Jon >> >> >Maybe they are "Teckla twins". IIRC Savn is 10-20 years older than his sister (He's 90 and she's 80, or something like that). I think that it's a bit like with humans, i e you CAN get one child at 15 and one at 45, but most people get their kids with 2 or 3 years apart. It's a thing of convenience. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Nov 10 14:43:58 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:43:58 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: Consider the e'Drien brothers: Molric and Morrolan. Molric was chainman for Adron, a fully mature warrior of some prominance. (Sure, as a family member he may have gotten some special treatment, which put him in a position of authority earlier than he otherwise would have, but from what we say of Adron, he seems more like the type to make a relative work harder and longer than a stranger, rather than the opposite.) In any case, Molric was therefore at LEAST 200 years old by the time of Adron's disaster (which was sometime before the birth of Morrolan) and more likely he was 400-500 years old, based on his position and presumed vetran status in Adron's army. We have no real information on Rollondar's wife, so it's unclear if Molric and Adron were born of the same mother, but Paarfi never mentions a second wife of Rollondar, which would be a significant oversight if this was the case. At the least, we know for sure that Rollondar sired both of them. Majikjon I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in other words, considering a 2500 year life span. What do you guys think? Jon From pulmon at mac.com Thu Nov 10 14:50:10 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:50:10 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51CF7117-DC8E-41D0-8285-55959ACF2AA6@mac.com> On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:14 PM, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> To: J C >> CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler >> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:08:35 -0500 >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, J C wrote: >> >>> I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 >>> years of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. >>> Else, you could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. >>> >>> Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a >>> century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very >>> close, in other words, considering a 2500 year life span. >>> >>> What do you guys think? >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >> Maybe they are "Teckla twins". > > IIRC Savn is 10-20 years older than his sister (He's 90 and she's > 80, or something like that). > I think that it's a bit like with humans, i e you CAN get one child > at 15 and one at 45, but most people get their kids with 2 or 3 > years apart. It's a thing of convenience. > > Except that 10-20 years in a 2000 year life span is more like 6-12 > MONTHS in a 100 year life span. hence, the concept that the parents > had no contraception and became pregnant immediately when it was > "conceivable" From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 15:35:46 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:35:46 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/10/05, J C wrote: > I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years of age, > they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you could have a elder > brother over 1000 years your senior. > > Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a century, I > think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in other words, > considering a 2500 year life span. > > What do you guys think? Dragaeran lifespans don't map exactly to human lifespans. One of the books remarks that Dragaerans don't age visibly until they are very old (2000+). Furthermore, Taltos makes it appear that very young Dragaerans (3 or less?) grow at approximately the same age as Easterners, and IIRC 20-year-old Dragaerans resemble 5-year-old Easterners, and 60-year-old Dragaerans are like 10- or 12-year-olds. Thereafter the curve seems to slow a bit. FHYA has a remark about Aliera's remarkable youthfulness at age 500, like someone in their first or second century still; I get the sense of someone saying that a 28-year-old still looks 18. Perhaps Dragaeran aging is logarithmic? I propose a wild guess: the apparent physical age of a Dragaeran at age N is that of a human of age 2*((N/2)^0.5). That is, age 100 is about 14, 120 is about 15 1/2, 200 is 20, 500 is 31, 800 is 40, and 3000 is 77. For a wild guess, it matches surprisingly well with my preconceptions. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From dovekie at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 15:56:46 2005 From: dovekie at gmail.com (dovekie) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:56:46 -0600 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: <008001c5e60c$bc3e1b30$0200a8c0@Carpovita> References: <284f31be0511071941j52d5aaefrc1bf88e66605c188@mail.gmail.com> <008001c5e60c$bc3e1b30$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <284f31be0511101556w4b2992a2xb7bebcd033929a2c@mail.gmail.com> There are fan summits? *boggles* On 11/10/05, Rion Bergquist wrote: > > not only are there recipes but Klava and Klava mugs (with the recipe writ > upon) them will be available at the Brust fan summit next May > > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of dovekie > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:42 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: first post, first question > > > Hello, > > I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before, > but... > > Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? > > -- ------------------------------------ No animals were harmed in the making of this email. This email is 100% biodegradable and pesticide-free. ------------------------------------ Slowsilver: A site for gamers http://slowsilver.darja.net/ We're so fast, we move backwards! ------------------------------------ From carpovita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 17:11:16 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:11:16 -0700 Subject: first post, first question In-Reply-To: <284f31be0511101556w4b2992a2xb7bebcd033929a2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01c5e65c$d17877c0$0200a8c0@Carpovita> well... The first ever fan summit will be this upcoming May - see www.opusfest.com -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of dovekie Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 4:57 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: first post, first question There are fan summits? *boggles* On 11/10/05, Rion Bergquist wrote: > > not only are there recipes but Klava and Klava mugs (with the recipe writ > upon) them will be available at the Brust fan summit next May > > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of dovekie > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:42 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: first post, first question > > > Hello, > > I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been covered before, > but... > > Does anyone have a good recipe for klava? > > -- ------------------------------------ No animals were harmed in the making of this email. This email is 100% biodegradable and pesticide-free. ------------------------------------ Slowsilver: A site for gamers http://slowsilver.darja.net/ We're so fast, we move backwards! ------------------------------------ From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Fri Nov 11 04:53:04 2005 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:53:04 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192A276E65@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Hehe!!! ROTFLMAO Proud father of Irish Twin Girls, Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Kenneth Gorelick > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:09 PM > To: J C > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler > > > On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, J C wrote: > > > I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly > 150 years > > of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you > > could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. > > > > Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a > > century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very > close, in > > other words, considering a 2500 year life span. > > > > What do you guys think? > > > > Jon > > > > > Maybe they are "Teckla twins". > ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From pulmon at mac.com Fri Nov 11 06:16:29 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:16:29 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192A276E65@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> References: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192A276E65@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Message-ID: <1A461959-8A25-47B0-85C5-7817029BA228@mac.com> On Nov 11, 2005, at 7:53 AM, Durston, Andrew (AGRE) wrote: > > > Hehe!!! ROTFLMAO > > Proud father of Irish Twin Girls, > Andrew > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >> [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Kenneth Gorelick >> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:09 PM >> To: J C >> Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:00 PM, J C wrote: >> >>> I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly >> 150 years >>> of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you >>> could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. >>> >>> Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a >>> century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very >> close, in >>> other words, considering a 2500 year life span. >>> >>> What do you guys think? >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >> Maybe they are "Teckla twins". Glad that SOMEONE got it! From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 09:42:00 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:42:00 +0000 Subject: FW: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: FWD to list ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Michele Riccio" Reply-To: mr1 at rcosta.com To: "J C" Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:35:06 -0500 On 10 Nov 2005 at 22:00, J C wrote > I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years > of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you > could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. > > Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a > century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in > other words, considering a 2500 year life span. > > What do you guys think? > > Jon > At some point, Vlad says that Dragaerans can not get pregnant accidentally. Either he's being flippant and exaggerating the situation (quite possible) or they have some sort of birth control mechanism (innate or applied) to achieve this. So, in essence, all pregnancies are planned. The age differences in children, and the number of children would be strictly controlled. No? Has this been discussed before? I feel like I'm borrowing someone's argument. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From pulmon at mac.com Fri Nov 11 09:49:06 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:49:06 -0500 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <144A541B-ADA2-41C5-B570-F4D64A5C46A3@mac.com> On Nov 11, 2005, at 12:42 PM, J C wrote: > > FWD to list > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Michele Riccio" > Reply-To: mr1 at rcosta.com > To: "J C" > Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:35:06 -0500 > > On 10 Nov 2005 at 22:00, J C wrote > > > I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years > > of age, they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you > > could have a elder brother over 1000 years your senior. > > > > Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a > > century, I think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in > > other words, considering a 2500 year life span. > > > > What do you guys think? > > > > Jon > > > > At some point, Vlad says that Dragaerans can not get pregnant > accidentally. Either he's being flippant and exaggerating the > situation (quite possible) or they have some sort of birth control > mechanism (innate or applied) to achieve this. So, in essence, all > pregnancies are planned. The age differences in children, and the > number of children would be strictly controlled. No? > > Has this been discussed before? I feel like I'm borrowing > someone's argument. > > M > > > > Michele Riccio > mr1 at rcosta.com > Complete control of fertility is a post-interregnum phenomenon. Earlier, when sorcery was less potent, there were occasional "unfortunate individuals" who owed their existence to untrammeled passion with inadequate protection. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Nov 11 09:58:52 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:58:52 -0800 Subject: FW: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4374DBDC.5090907@Sun.COM> > From: "Michele Riccio" > Has this been discussed before? I feel like I'm borrowing > someone's argument. Well, as long as you promise to return it in reasonably sound condition, I doubt that someone will mind. :) Chris From casey at the-bat.net Fri Nov 11 11:26:48 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:26:48 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <4374DBDC.5090907@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <000e01c5e6f5$dc975b50$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Chris Olson responded: > > From: "Michele Riccio" > > Has this been discussed before? I feel like I'm borrowing > > someone's argument. > > Well, as long as you promise to return it in reasonably sound condition, > I doubt that someone will mind. Indeed. Arguments, unlike chewing gum, are just as good (or bad) the second time around. From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Nov 11 11:31:26 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:31:26 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <4374DBDC.5090907@Sun.COM> References: Message-ID: <4374AB3E.598.10A3431@localhost> On 11 Nov 2005 at 9:58, Chris Olson wrote > > From: "Michele Riccio" > > Has this been discussed before? I feel like I'm borrowing > > someone's argument. > > Well, as long as you promise to return it in reasonably sound > condition, I doubt that someone will mind. > > :) > Chris > Than I shan't keep it long for fear it will become contaminated with my current bout of Friday-itis. (thanks for the forwarding JC!) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:16:16 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:16:16 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/10/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > Dragaeran lifespans don't map exactly to human lifespans. One of the > books remarks that Dragaerans don't age visibly until they are very > old (2000+). Furthermore, Taltos makes it appear that very young > Dragaerans (3 or less?) grow at approximately the same age as > Easterners, and IIRC 20-year-old Dragaerans resemble 5-year-old > Easterners, and 60-year-old Dragaerans are like 10- or 12-year-olds. > Thereafter the curve seems to slow a bit. FHYA has a remark about > Aliera's remarkable youthfulness at age 500, like someone in their > first or second century still; I get the sense of someone saying that > a 28-year-old still looks 18. Perhaps Dragaeran aging is logarithmic? > > I propose a wild guess: the apparent physical age of a Dragaeran at > age N is that of a human of age 2*((N/2)^0.5). That is, age 100 is > about 14, 120 is about 15 1/2, 200 is 20, 500 is 31, 800 is 40, and > 3000 is 77. For a wild guess, it matches surprisingly well with my > preconceptions. > I have been pondering a section on aging for the wikicites article on Dragaerans, and I like the idea of a neat mathematical formulation like that. However, while I think it is close, I also think it needs a slight adjustment. Perhaps 2.6 as the multiplier, rather than 2? I propose this change because Khaavren is the analog of D'Artagnan, and Khaavren is about 95 at the start of TPG, to D'Artagnan being about 18 at the beginning of /The Three Musketeers/. This would also make 3000 closer to 100 (human), which "feels" more correct; great old age rather than just old age. Of course, perhaps the whole formula needs tweaking. Of course, there is quite possibly a certain amount of variation in Dragaeran aging as well. As has been noted before, Savn appears to be about the same age that Khaavren was, yet he comes off as younger. Note that Savn does have a certain degree of responsibility, and he's in the middle of his apprenticeship, not just starting it (I note that apprenticeships were from 14-21, says Wikipedia:Apprenticeship). Perhaps it is simply because he is less bold, and less clever, than young Khaavren was, that he thus appears to be younger. A few more thoughts on aging, and age-appearance: I recall that Hwdf'rjaanci tells Kiera "You don't look old enough to remember the Interregnum"; that is, Kiera looks very, very young indeed, since the Interregnum only ended a few centuries before this. Paresh says that he was sixty when he was granted some land, which is incredibly young by either formulation. But perhaps Vlad misremembered what he heard, or, possibly, Paresh is misremembering his own age; not entirely unfeasible. What's a few decades off when your life expectancy is millenia? Paresh also describes the Duke of Arylle who accosted him as being his own age. This does seem odd, and until /Sethra Lavode/ was published, made me think that this could not possibly be Aerich (along with the idea that Aerich - pedantically correct Aerich - got the baronness' gender wrong). However, on a recent re-read of the Paarfiad, I noted in a couple of places that Aerich is described as being ageless; perhaps Paresh was simply confused. Paresh also describes his Baronness as being "old", when Tazendra is about the same age as Khaavren. Perhaps this is because of all the stories he's heard about her; he presumes that someone cannot possibly have done all of those things without her lifetime being rather long. And perhaps Paresh is just very very confused indeed. Or maybe it's just Paarfi. Or Vlad. Or that other guy, the one who's writing these stories down. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Nov 11 16:28:59 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Paresh says that he was sixty when he was granted some land, which is > incredibly young by either formulation. But perhaps Vlad > misremembered what he heard, or, possibly, Paresh is misremembering > his own age; not entirely unfeasible. Or Paresh is lying like shag wall-to-wall. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:30:21 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:30:21 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 11/10/05, J C wrote: > I think that, given that Dragaerans get married at roughly 150 years of age, > they have a relatively short fertility period. Else, you could have a elder > brother over 1000 years your senior. > Why would having a sibling being 1000 years older be a problem? I don't see any reason that Savn and Polyi couldn't have older siblings. It's just that when they became old enough, they moved out and started their own families. Hmm. Positing a long fertility period, it would indeed make sense for Teckla to be highly exogamous; send the kids off far away to found new families so as to minimize the risk of inbreeding. > Savn and his sister are very close in age--probably less than a century, I > think around 2 or 3 score of years apart. Very close, in other words, > considering a 2500 year life span. True - but it still is not inconsistent with a long fertile period, all the older kids having moved out, and perhaps even far away. It would also make sense for Teckla to *plan* for a set of kids to be born as close together as you note - they can all help out on the farm together, and this way, they *know* that they are brother and sister (incest avoidance appears to be based psychologically on siblings being raised together - and even kicks in when unrelated children are raised together; see: "Westermark effect") From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Nov 11 16:49:11 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:49:11 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >>Paresh says that he was sixty when he was granted some land, which is >>incredibly young by either formulation. But perhaps Vlad >>misremembered what he heard, or, possibly, Paresh is misremembering >>his own age; not entirely unfeasible. > > > >Or Paresh is lying like shag wall-to-wall. > > We pretty much know Paresh is lying (or mis-remembering, anyway) at least some portions of his story, since his version is different from Paarfi's--and in ways that unless Paarfi is completely wrong about Aerich's abilities and attitudes simply cannot be reconciled with the way Aerich would behave in that situation. (Deflecting a sorcerous attack? Going out of his way to chastise a vagrant Teckla when his friend Tazendra was in mortal danger? Doesn't seem as likely as Paarfi's version.) However, I would posit that Dragaeran aging is not simply a mathematicial formula away from human aging--they just mature at different rates and times than we do. Humans have growth spurts at different points in their youth, the onset of puberty being the most obvious example of this; but there are actually several other spurts, both before and after adolescence. Dragaerans simply have these growth spurts at different times and in different amounts than we do. This might allow for Paresh to have been mature enough to take his land at 60 (like he said) and still have Savn (only 20 years older, which isn't really all that much) be "about the same age"... 60-80 is just one of those periods between spurts where not much apparent aging happens. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:59:44 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:59:44 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Michele Riccio" > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:35:06 -0500 > > At some point, Vlad says that Dragaerans can not get pregnant > accidentally. Either he's being flippant and exaggerating the > situation (quite possible) or they have some sort of birth control > mechanism (innate or applied) to achieve this. > Or, as another alternative, Vlad is (mistakenly) generalizing from one example. I can see a scenario where, as the first-time owner of a brothel, he inquires of the madam/pimp, "So, uh, is there any risk of the, uh, tags getting pregnant?", and being answered, along with a look that is impossible to describe, "They don't get pregnant unless they want to," and Vlad thinks that that is (a) always the case with all Dragaerans (that is, something innate), and (b) always has been the case, for all time. Or at least until he learns a bit more. I suspect that this is the case for a lot of stuff that Vlad says about Dragaerans, such as Dragaerans not thinking that being a tag is a big deal. Well, maybe it's not a big deal for Jhereg, but from what we've seen in the Paarfiad, there is indeed rather a bit of shame connected to prurient matters, for Dragaerans of various other Houses. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:15:01 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 18:15:01 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511111715s144440f9i8c0327a42cd96017@mail.gmail.com> On Paresh, Paarfi, and Aerich: It's also possible that the two stories are not related at all, or that Paresh has read Paarfi and is embroidering his history with details from the stories. While we might chuckle to think that the real-life Aerich was less cool-headed than his literary counterpart (Paarfi is, after all, a purveyor of romance novels), Paresh also says that his attacker tried to blast him with sorcery, with he adroitly dodged. This doesn't fit in well with Aerich, who isn't much of a sorcerer per the novels, and IIRC Tazendra's kidnapping takes place during the Interregnum. Perhaps the "daring Teckla teases the arrogant lordling" theme is common enough that Paresh and Paarfi both adopt it from a common source, whether or not the basic details are true in Paresh' case. IMHO, this is a case where Steve is teasing us. Much like the conflict between Morrolan's and Paarfi's accounts of the Zerika's descent from Deathgate. I don't know that it necessarily has a deeper meaning; maybe He does it just to be contrary. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:22:23 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:22:23 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/11/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > However, I would posit that Dragaeran aging is not simply a > mathematicial formula away from human aging--they just mature at > different rates and times than we do. But that is exactly what a proper mathematical formula decribes! It might be a somewhat complicated mathematical formula (so that perhaps different formulas would be used between different life stages), or mathematical formulas with some factor that ranges between certain values, but it should still all come down to math. When you have one set of values that goes between 0-100, and another set of values that goes between 0-3000, and are told that there is a certain relationship between those values (in this case, age), then a mathematical formula, with certain accepted limitations, describes that relationship. > Humans have growth spurts at different points in their youth, the onset > of puberty being the most obvious example of this; but there are > actually several other spurts, both before and after adolescence. > Dragaerans simply have these growth spurts at different times and in > different amounts than we do. > > This might allow for Paresh to have been mature enough to take his land > at 60 (like he said) and still have Savn (only 20 years older, which > isn't really all that much) be "about the same age"... 60-80 is just one > of those periods between spurts where not much apparent aging happens. > Assuming for the moment that that is the case, you could still create a mathematical formula that took into account that amount of variability. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:44:54 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:44:54 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511111715s144440f9i8c0327a42cd96017@mail.gmail.com> References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0511111715s144440f9i8c0327a42cd96017@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On Paresh, Paarfi, and Aerich: > > It's also possible that the two stories are not related at all, or > that Paresh has read Paarfi and is embroidering his history with > details from the stories. While we might chuckle to think that the > real-life Aerich was less cool-headed than his literary counterpart > (Paarfi is, after all, a purveyor of romance novels), Paresh also says > that his attacker tried to blast him with sorcery, with he adroitly > dodged. This doesn't fit in well with Aerich, who isn't much of a > sorcerer per the novels, That reminds me - Aerich doesn't *use* sorcery much, but over the centuries, Tazendra might well have taught him some small amount, perhaps at least enough to afford him some defensive measures. Alternatively, I have a vague memory of some amulet that Aerich has in the later Paarfiad, perhaps as a gift from Tazendra, which might be something that affords some sort of sorcerous protection. Indeed, perhaps what Paresh thinks was Aerich's "attack" was his own sorcerous blast being automagically (hah!) reflected back at him by this amulet (or some other automated sorcerous protection), with no concious intent of assault from Aerich himself. Hmm. Thinking about it, some sort of sorcerous protection would also make sense given Aerich's vambraces, and metal being especially vulnerable to sorcery, at least according to some vague noises by SKZB. Although I'll have to check and see if I'm misremembering about the amulet. > and IIRC Tazendra's kidnapping takes place during the Interregnum. Nope. Zerika returns with the Orb at the beginning of /Lord of Castle Black/; Tazendra even helps Zerika with sorcery in the course of that book. Tazendra was abducted much later, after Zerika has already started setting up court, in /Sethra Lavode/. > > IMHO, this is a case where Steve is teasing us. Much like the conflict > between Morrolan's and Paarfi's accounts of the Zerika's descent from > Deathgate. I don't know that it necessarily has a deeper meaning; > maybe He does it just to be contrary. > I nearly think I agree. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Nov 11 17:44:40 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > > >Or Paresh is lying like shag wall-to-wall. > > > > > We pretty much know Paresh is lying (or mis-remembering, anyway) at > least some portions of his story, since his version is different from > Paarfi's In May '04 I was involved in an energetic argument on the list with another poster (John Klein?) who was defending the accurate-Paresh thesis against my absolutist accurate-Paarfi position. I think there were some good points on both sides, though I still hold my view. (I see there was another such argument in August '03 - I think me vs everybody.) From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:51:29 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:51:29 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0511111715s144440f9i8c0327a42cd96017@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/11/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > and IIRC Tazendra's kidnapping takes place during the Interregnum. > > Nope. Zerika returns with the Orb at the beginning of /Lord of Castle > Black/; Tazendra even helps Zerika with sorcery in the course of that > book. Tazendra was abducted much later, after Zerika has already > started setting up court, in /Sethra Lavode/. > OH! And, of course: "It has returned, or I'm a norska!" I think that needed to be said. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Nov 11 17:28:40 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:28:40 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43754548.3010309@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > But that is exactly what a proper mathematical formula decribes! > >It might be a somewhat complicated mathematical formula (so that >perhaps different formulas would be used between different life >stages), or mathematical formulas with some factor that ranges between >certain values, but it should still all come down to math. > >When you have one set of values that goes between 0-100, and another >set of values that goes between 0-3000, and are told that there is a >certain relationship between those values (in this case, age), then a >mathematical formula, with certain accepted limitations, describes >that relationship. > >Assuming for the moment that that is the case, you could still create >a mathematical formula that took into account that amount of >variability. > Certainly, you can make a formula that describes ANYTHING... That's the whole point of math--to provide a symbolic representation for how things work. It's just that such a formula becomes less useful for a casual discussion when it goes beyond a certain point of complexity. Really, I wasn't saying you COULDN'T make a formula to describe the aging differences--just that it probably isn't terribly useful to do so. ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Nov 11 17:50:29 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:50:29 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0511111715s144440f9i8c0327a42cd96017@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43754A65.9080805@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >>IMHO, this is a case where Steve is teasing us. Much like the conflict >>between Morrolan's and Paarfi's accounts of the Zerika's descent from >>Deathgate. I don't know that it necessarily has a deeper meaning; >>maybe He does it just to be contrary. >> >> >> > >I nearly think I agree. > > I don't know if he's teasing us... Or just trying to get discussions like this one started so he can mine them for story ideas. Clever guy. ;-) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 22:24:20 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:24:20 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <437376F4.7030204@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0511101535i361af8afpfb06f5f31899903d@mail.gmail.com> <43753C07.8010402@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511112224x29beef00m2a03afc44bb8f086@mail.gmail.com> On 11/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/11/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > However, I would posit that Dragaeran aging is not simply a > > mathematicial formula away from human aging--they just mature at > > different rates and times than we do. > > But that is exactly what a proper mathematical formula decribes! > > It might be a somewhat complicated mathematical formula (so that > perhaps different formulas would be used between different life > stages), or mathematical formulas with some factor that ranges between > certain values, but it should still all come down to math. Kind of, I guess. But describing interacting physical systems is going to involve inventing a lot of new operators and terminology and definitions; you can describe a falling ball's motion with a simple equation, but once it hits a floor and bounces you have to mathematically describe the bouncing and *then* re-run the free-fall equation. To describe it in a single equation you'd need a notation that expresses discontinuities in a function and its several derivatives. Maybe such notations exist, but I don't know them. People seem to be okay with breaking systems up into separate parts, where separate equations apply. Anyway, Dragaeran aging will obviously not really conform to a simplistic formula like my original proposal; which doesn't mean it can't be a decent approximation for *expressing* equivalent ages. > When you have one set of values that goes between 0-100, and another > set of values that goes between 0-3000, and are told that there is a > certain relationship between those values (in this case, age), then a > mathematical formula, with certain accepted limitations, describes > that relationship. A fair point. I might argue that we're less interested in fitting the actual function than in minimizing both error and formula complexity, in a sort of MDL- (Minimum Description Length) ish fashion. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From johndavidwalsh at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 23:04:25 2005 From: johndavidwalsh at hotmail.com (john walsh) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:04:25 -0500 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 21:42:39 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 21:42:39 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511112224x29beef00m2a03afc44bb8f086@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! (*rubbing hands in glee*) I see my insidious plot to spark an ENOURMOUS discussion has succeeded far beyond my wildest expectations. MWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! But please: continue, by all means continue. James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >From: Maximilian Wilson >To: Davdi Silverrock >CC: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:24:20 -0700 > >On 11/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 11/11/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > > However, I would posit that Dragaeran aging is not simply a > > > mathematicial formula away from human aging--they just mature at > > > different rates and times than we do. > > > > But that is exactly what a proper mathematical formula decribes! > > > > It might be a somewhat complicated mathematical formula (so that > > perhaps different formulas would be used between different life > > stages), or mathematical formulas with some factor that ranges between > > certain values, but it should still all come down to math. > >Kind of, I guess. But describing interacting physical systems is going >to involve inventing a lot of new operators and terminology and >definitions; you can describe a falling ball's motion with a simple >equation, but once it hits a floor and bounces you have to >mathematically describe the bouncing and *then* re-run the free-fall >equation. To describe it in a single equation you'd need a notation >that expresses discontinuities in a function and its several >derivatives. Maybe such notations exist, but I don't know them. People >seem to be okay with breaking systems up into separate parts, where >separate equations apply. Anyway, Dragaeran aging will obviously not >really conform to a simplistic formula like my original proposal; >which doesn't mean it can't be a decent approximation for *expressing* >equivalent ages. > > > When you have one set of values that goes between 0-100, and another > > set of values that goes between 0-3000, and are told that there is a > > certain relationship between those values (in this case, age), then a > > mathematical formula, with certain accepted limitations, describes > > that relationship. > >A fair point. I might argue that we're less interested in fitting the >actual function than in minimizing both error and formula complexity, >in a sort of MDL- (Minimum Description Length) ish fashion. > >Max Wilson > >-- >Be pretty if you are, >Be witty if you can, >But be cheerful if it kills you. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 10:03:06 2005 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:03:06 +0000 Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) Message-ID: Not that it means a whole lot, but Amazon now has a release date listed for the newest Vlad Taltos novel "Dzur" (see note below). Dzur (Vlad) (Hardcover) by Steven Brust Hardcover: 320 pages Publisher: Tor Books (August 8, 2006) Language: English ISBN: 0765301482 note - (the title of which will be changed to "Vlad Taltos" since the publisher's sales reps and the store buyers will be unable to pronounce Dzur) Steven Brust as listed by Amazon.ca (Old but always fun) Sovn (Same Old Vlad Novel?) by Brust Steven Tor Books (M/M) ; ISBN: 0765341557 Yavn (Yet Another Vlad Novel?) by Brust Steven Hardcover 0 edition (January 1, 2008) Language: English Vhps Trade ; ISBN: 0765301482 Other Editions: Mass Market Paperback Tor Books (M/M) ; ISBN: 0765341549 Vlad Novel #12 by Steven Brust Mass Market Paperback - 256 pages 12 edition (August 28, 2008) Language: English Tor Books (M/M) ; ISBN: 0765350572 Other Editions: Hardcover Tor Books (Hc) Consignment ; ISBN: 0765312085 Vlad Novel #13 by Steven Brust Hardcover - 256 pages 13 edition (August 28, 2008) Language: English Tor Books (Hc) Consignment ; ISBN: 0765312093 Other Editions: Mass Market Paperback Mass Market Paperback - 256 pages 13 edition (August 28, 2009) Language: English Tor Books (M/M) ; ISBN: 0765350580 From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Nov 13 12:06:58 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:06:58 EST Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) Message-ID: <242.1296a46.30a8f6e2@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2005 1:03:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, usagigoya at hotmail.com writes: Amazon now has a release date listed for the newest Vlad Taltos novel "Dzur" (see note below). Dzur (Vlad) (Hardcover) by Steven Brust Hardcover: 320 pages Publisher: Tor Books (August 8, 2006) Language: English ISBN: 0765301482 And it is available for pre-ordering. No Cover picture yet shown. Just checked it isn't on Barnes and Nobles, or Books-A-Million or Borders websites yet. From johne.cook at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 12:08:10 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:08:10 -0600 Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Steve Hubbell wrote: > Not that it means a whole lot, but Amazon now has a release date listed for > the newest Vlad Taltos novel "Dzur" (see note below). > > Dzur (Vlad) (Hardcover) > by Steven Brust > Hardcover: 320 pages > Publisher: Tor Books (August 8, 2006) > Language: English > ISBN: 0765301482 > > note - (the title of which will be changed to "Vlad Taltos" since the > publisher's sales reps and the store buyers will be unable to pronounce > Dzur) ...and you just /know/ they're going to mis-pronounce "Taltos"... -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Nov 13 12:14:00 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:14:00 EST Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) Message-ID: <1c8.35ebcce5.30a8f888@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2005 1:03:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, usagigoya at hotmail.com wrote on dragaera.info mailing list: Dzur (Vlad) (Hardcover) by Steven Brust Hardcover: 320 pages Publisher: Tor Books (August 8, 2006) Language: English ISBN: 0765301482 And it is 320 pages. More pages than Issola in Hardback. More pages then Dragon Yeah! From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 13:16:02 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:16:02 -0500 Subject: Uttrik Message-ID: A few questions: When did Uttrik pick up another longsword in TPG? When he duels Khaavren, he has one, when he duels Kathana, he has two. What happened to him? As I recall, FHA didn't mention him at all, but it did mention Kathana's marriage. Is it possible he died in the Interregnum? Not unless he wasn't at the Pepperfields- I highly doubt that Adron's Disaster reached Redface, or the edge of the Empire. If he didn't die in the Interregnum why wasn't he helping Kana or Zerika? Did Steve simply forget about him? From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 13:58:18 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:58:18 -0800 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >What happened to him? As I recall, FHA didn't mention him at all, but it did >mention Kathana's marriage. >Is it possible he died in the Interregnum? Not unless he wasn't at the >Pepperfields- I highly doubt that Adron's Disaster reached Redface, or the >edge of the Empire. If he didn't die in the Interregnum why wasn't he >helping Kana or Zerika? Did Steve simply forget about him? > > > Paths of the Dead, Papaerback pg 95: "Alas, sir, he was in Dragaera at the time of the disaster." Majikjon Alas poor Uttrik. I knew him, Horatio. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 14:44:29 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:44:29 -0800 Subject: Concerning the Gods Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > Sethra Lavode > Brokedown Palace > Issola > > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * spoiler space * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > > 2. Verra is slain (or, perhaps more accurately, "banished" from the East) in > Brokedown Palace. Why can she still manifest in the Empire (see Issola)? > Is the Empire a different "plane of existence" than the East? Tri'nagore is > also slain in the East, and yet there seems to be little doubt that he is > banished from the Empire as well as the East. Does this imply that Dzur > Mountain and the Lesser Sea of Chaos (the two places Verra manifests in > Issola) are on different planes of existence than the rest of the world of > Dragaera? > I don't think that it would make sense to conclude that different locations, which we know can be reached by simple physical motion on the surface of the planet, are on different planes of existence. Therefore: (this may go into Speculation:God at some point) While the nature of the gods is less than entirely obvious, I think that there may be enough bits and pieces here and there to at least speculate on. So I would suggest as follows, based partly on the Paarfiad and partly on the Vladiad, and partly on Brokedown Palace: 1) Gods have power proportional to the number of people who worship them (although a better phrase might be "dedicate themselves to" rather than "worship" - "worship" being an Easterner concept, which doesn't feel quite right given other stuff we've seen about the gods). 2) The Gods can enter into a location when persons who are dedicated to them invite them (request them?) to enter (which is how Verra was able to enter the Jenoine's Place -- Morrolan, bearing Verra's blood (and being otherwise bound to Verra); Aliera, being Verra's daughter; Teldra, being Verra's priestess; and I think even Vlad, initiated by his grandfather to worship the Demon Goddess from an early age -- are all dedicated to Verra, for certain values of "dedicate") 3) A God who has been invited into a location can request that those who performed the invitation dedicate the location itself, with some sort of physical monument, which may be something provided by the God, or by the people, or something which requires a cooperative effort- quite possibly, a sacrifice; possibly even a blood sacrifice. For the Demon Goddess in Fenario, this was her statue; for Tri'nagore, this was something described as an "icon", which sounds like something similar to a statue. This physical monument might act as an anchor, making the location it exists in a 4) When the monument belonging to a God is desecrated, it is the first step in a ritual of *de*invitation, an expulsion. If the God can then kill the one(s) trying to perform the expulsion, then the expulsion is incomplete, but if the God is killed, the expulsion is final - for that location. We may also speculate that if the expulsion is to be permanent, then all who are dedicated to the God, and might therefore re-invite the God, must leave (or be forced to leave) the location or perish. 5) If a God has multiple monuments dedicated to him/her, then being expelled from one location does not mean that that God cannot manifest any longer on that plane of existence - only from that location on the plane of existence. We might speculate, therefore, that a God may manifest anywhere within a certain radius of the monument (Thousands of miles? Hundreds of miles? Seventeen miles? Who can say?), and an expulsion creates a locale, again of a certain radius, where a God may *not* manifest. While most of the above is speculation, I think it accords well with what we've seen so far. Tri'nagore, for example, only had the one monument/icon; most (all?) of his worshippers/dedicators in the East were killed; and Skinter and Habil, who might have performed a ritual of dedication in order to summon him, are also dead. Thus, he has nowhere else on this plane where he can manifest now. Verra, on the other hand, has a lot more worshippers/dedicats, presumably still in the East and definitely in Dragaera, and can therefore manifest in many places in Dragaera, but one fewer in the East. Thus, she can still manifest on this plane in areas still dedicated to her. Of course, we might also speculate that Verra can actually only manifest on Dragaera close to *persons* who have dedicated themselves to her - so she always shows up near Aliera, or Morrolan, or Vlad, or one of her priests/priestesses (Teldra). Which could also explain how she was able to show up at Dzur Mountain and near the Lesser Sea of Chaos. There. That is tolerably clever speculation, I nearly think, if hardly conclusive. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 14:54:32 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:54:32 -0800 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Louis Eastman wrote: > > >What happened to him? > >Is it possible he died in the Interregnum? > >Did Steve simply forget about him? I nearly think he didn't. > > > > > > > Paths of the Dead, Papaerback pg 95: > > "Alas, sir, he was in Dragaera at the time of the disaster." > > Majikjon > > Alas poor Uttrik. I knew him, Horatio. > I have a notion that Uttrik would have been a vassal of Adron (Adron was Baron of Pepperfield, but Uttrik might have been his seneschal or marshal, or whatever the correct title is), and therefore among the forces that fought against the Empire; perhaps he was even killed in the battle just before the Disaster... From usagigoya at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 14:58:43 2005 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:58:43 +0000 Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) In-Reply-To: <360751e50511131010g735b7dd3i8bdddc9848001338@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, just a bit of sarcasm concerning The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. Considering Tor had already released a book entitled Dzurlord, I have to make fun of the reasoning behind the logic (logic behind the reasoning?) even though Steven Brust agreed to the change. >From: Kate Nepveu >To: Steve Hubbell >Subject: Re: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:10:58 -0500 > >On 11/13/05, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Not that it means a whole lot, but Amazon now has a release date listed >for > > the newest Vlad Taltos novel "Dzur" (see note below). > > > Dzur (Vlad) (Hardcover) > > by Steven Brust > > Hardcover: 320 pages > > Publisher: Tor Books (August 8, 2006) > > Language: English > > ISBN: 0765301482 > > > note - (the title of which will be changed to "Vlad Taltos" since the > > publisher's sales reps and the store buyers will be unable to pronounce > > Dzur) > >Has this been announced? I am surprised to hear it, especially in >light of "Taltos" already existing. I know it was a problem with _The >Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_, but _Dzur_ is so much more important as >a title . . . > >-- >Kate Nepveu >kate.nepveu at gmail.com From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 17:16:10 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:16:10 -0800 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I have a notion that Uttrik would have been a vassal of Adron (Adron > >was Baron of Pepperfield, but Uttrik might have been his seneschal or >marshal, or whatever the correct title is), and therefore among the >forces that fought against the Empire; perhaps he was even killed in >the battle just before the Disaster... > > While this makes a certain amount of sense, it seems unusual that Aerich (who spent a great deal of time in Adron's camp right before the disaster) didn't seek him out (or vice versa) to renew their friendship. It's possible, of course, that Uttrick simply didn't know Aerich was around... It's even possible that they did meet, and we (meaning Paarfi) just didn't hear about it. Of course, that's the kind of detail that I'm surprised Paarfi wouldn't have put in on his own to "spice things up". ;-) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:05:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:05:01 -0800 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I have a notion that Uttrik would have been a vassal of Adron (Adron > >was Baron of Pepperfield, but Uttrik might have been his seneschal or > >marshal, or whatever the correct title is), and therefore among the > >forces that fought against the Empire; perhaps he was even killed in > >the battle just before the Disaster... > > > > > While this makes a certain amount of sense, it seems unusual that Aerich > (who spent a great deal of time in Adron's camp right before the > disaster) didn't seek him out (or vice versa) to renew their friendship. I think Aerich's mind was occupied with trying to mitigate the descent into civil war that Adron and Tortaalik seemed to be bent on, and the emotions that he had to deal with at the time, regarding the pulling of loyalty to Adron as a friend on the one hand, and the opposing loyalty to Tortaalik as the Emperor on the other. Not to mention his friend Khaavren being also caught up in that particular mess. > It's possible, of course, that Uttrick simply didn't know Aerich was > around... It's even possible that they did meet, and we (meaning Paarfi) > just didn't hear about it. > > Of course, that's the kind of detail that I'm surprised Paarfi wouldn't > have put in on his own to "spice things up". ;-) > There's a lot of detail that Paarfi has not seen fit to include in his histories, such as the name of the woman who was Adron's sister, Rollondar's wife, and Morrolan's mother. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:03:25 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:03:25 -0800 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > The Phoenix Guards > The Paths of the Dead > The Lord of Castle Black > Sethra Lavode > Brokedown Palace > Jhereg > Taltos > Phoenix > Athyra > Orca > Issola > > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * spoiler space * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > > 10. It has been suggested that Paarfi is a mouthpiece for Sethra. In one of > my emails to Steven Brust concerning the geography of Dragaera, he responded > to something I quoted from Paarfi by saying, "Pel is wrong. Sort of." The > passage we were discussing was clearly narrated by Paarfi (it was a > description of the location of Newmarket relative to Dragaera City early in > TPG), not directly attributable to Pel. This seems to suggest that at least > portions of Paarfi's tale were supplied by Pel, not Sethra. Or maybe Pel is > Sethra's mouthpiece, and Paarfi is Pel's. > To the left, it may have been a typo (of "Pel" for "Paarfi"). I'm just sayin', is all. I know I've made the same mistake, in the opposite direction. Or... Paarfi is secretly Pel! That would explain *so much*!!!! From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Nov 13 19:04:49 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:04:49 -0800 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > There's a lot of detail that Paarfi has not seen fit to include in his > >histories, such as the name of the woman who was Adron's sister, >Rollondar's wife, and Morrolan's mother. > > Too bad Paarfi doesn't subscribe to the mailing list, or we could just ask him. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:36:39 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 19:36:39 -0800 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > There's a lot of detail that Paarfi has not seen fit to include in his > >histories, such as the name of the woman who was Adron's sister, > >Rollondar's wife, and Morrolan's mother. > > > > > Too bad Paarfi doesn't subscribe to the mailing list, or we could just > ask him. > If he did, and we did, it would almost certainly all end in tears. From pulmon at mac.com Sun Nov 13 19:39:38 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:39:38 -0500 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66BA800F-E7AA-4C6C-8C88-A84AF531ACED@mac.com> On Nov 13, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: >> Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: >> >> The Phoenix Guards >> The Paths of the Dead >> The Lord of Castle Black >> Sethra Lavode >> Brokedown Palace >> Jhereg >> Taltos >> Phoenix >> Athyra >> Orca >> Issola >> >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * spoiler space * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> >> >> 10. It has been suggested that Paarfi is a mouthpiece for Sethra. >> In one of >> my emails to Steven Brust concerning the geography of Dragaera, he >> responded >> to something I quoted from Paarfi by saying, "Pel is wrong. Sort >> of." The >> passage we were discussing was clearly narrated by Paarfi (it was a >> description of the location of Newmarket relative to Dragaera City >> early in >> TPG), not directly attributable to Pel. This seems to suggest >> that at least >> portions of Paarfi's tale were supplied by Pel, not Sethra. Or >> maybe Pel is >> Sethra's mouthpiece, and Paarfi is Pel's. >> > > To the left, it may have been a typo (of "Pel" for "Paarfi"). I'm > just sayin', is all. > > I know I've made the same mistake, in the opposite direction. > > Or... > > Paarfi is secretly Pel! That would explain *so much*!!!! A Yendi (snake) passing as a Hawk? That would be a superhuman feat! Ken > From pulmon at mac.com Sun Nov 13 19:40:19 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:40:19 -0500 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3F69F6AD-CACE-4248-908F-D22D8CCED7E4@mac.com> On Nov 13, 2005, at 10:36 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >>> There's a lot of detail that Paarfi has not seen fit to include >>> in his >>> histories, such as the name of the woman who was Adron's sister, >>> Rollondar's wife, and Morrolan's mother. >>> >>> >> Too bad Paarfi doesn't subscribe to the mailing list, or we could >> just >> ask him. >> > > If he did, and we did, it would almost certainly all end in tears. Yeah, and Five Hundred Pages After... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Nov 13 20:06:06 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:06:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Too bad Paarfi doesn't subscribe to the mailing list, or we could just > ask him. Who knows? Maybe Paarfi's subscribed under a different name. Who's the most long-winded poster here? Who's the purest pro-Paarfi poster? Who's the most pro-Sethra poster? From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:37:42 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:37:42 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > The Paths of the Dead > The Lord of Castle Black > Sethra Lavode > > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * spoiler space * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > > 8. On the longevity of Easterners: Zerika's Eastern lover is named Laszlo > in the Paarfiad, and she also tells Vlad in Phoenix that her Eastern lover's > name "is" (note the tense) Laszlo. If this is the same Easterner, he is > very long lived indeed. On the other hand, Morrolan's head of the circle in > the Paarfiad is Arra--who, we are told, has been granted longevity by > Verra--and yet by the time of Issola, that role is filled by Surill (pg 24 > of the paperback). Of course, this could be the same person (Chaz/Tukko, > anyone?) > I've had a few really pararectal notions about the Easterners that Paarfi portrays. One is this: Dragaeran-Easterner crossbreeds are a lot more common than we've been led to believe (see also Speculation:Crossbreeds). Thus, Arra, Brimford (Laszlo), and perhaps even Miska, are all partly Dragaeran, and have lifespans which are naturally much longer than what we would consider to be normal, but which are shorter than Dragaeran lifespans. And in appearance, they're much closer to being Easterners, and are thus considered to be such. Another notion is this: Paarfi is conflating characters because *he* thinks it's plausible and/or dramatic to do so. So Paarfi has (a) Information about an Easterner who travelled with Morrolan from the East, who was highly skilled in witchcraft, and aided in the restoration of the Empire, and who received an Imperial title of "Brimford" from Zerika (and whose given name is not recorded), and (b) rumors that at some point in Zerika's lifetime, she had a lover who was an Easterner named Laszlo. So Paarfi looks at this Brimford, and the honors showered upon him, and puts 1 and 1 together, and gets 17. Aha! he says. These could have been the same person! So he goes and writes his "history" that way, including the scandal that got Pel dismissed. But is there any other information that this conflation is correct, especially given Zerika speaking of Laszlo being her present lover in Vlad's time (ignoring my part-Dragaeran notion)? Of course, perhaps Vlad has misreported Zerika's words or meaning. Or perhaps we need to take into account reincarnation - Zerika's lover was indeed Lord Brimford (his name unknown but interpolated as being Laszlo by Paarfi), reincarnated as Laszlo in Vlad's time. Or maybe his name was Laszlo each incarnation, used because it was what he remembered as the name he had the first time he met Zerika? Who can say? I had a similar notion about Arra. As we see in /Issola/, Teldra is a High Priestess. Now, Paarfi may have heard that Morrolan travelled from the East with a Priestess, and that he travelled from the East with Teldra - and for whatever reason, decided that Teldra and the Priestess were separate people. So perhaps the entire character of "Arra" was made up by Paarfi out of a misunderstanding? [1] Alternatively, perhaps there *was* an Arra, who was Morrolan's chief witch when he left Blackchapel, but she was not a priestess of Verra, that having been Teldra, and who had a normal lifespan, the whole extended lifespan thing having been made up by Paarfi. Again, who can say? 1: I note, by the way, that in Hungarian, "arra" means "out there; that way", which may or may not mean anything in conjunction with the above. From bryann at bryann.net Sun Nov 13 22:15:30 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:15:30 -0600 Subject: Quiet (Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <250.919e54.30a2c04a@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c5e8e2$d0ae1650$6501a8c0@dell> > >1. How did Arra manage to use witchcraft while Laszlo could not? > > Arra works for Verra. Once Arra realized something was up, > she contacted Verra and got help. I was going to argue against this, because Paarfi pretends the gods were too busy debating if they should do anything to actually do anything, but a) it's Paarfi, and b) Verra, of all the gods we've been introduced to, seems most likely to circumvent the debate and just do what she thought needed done. Still, it reminds me of something that's been puzzling me for some time now (and I nearly think I've mentioned it here before): Verra is the Goddess of Elder Sorcery and her sister Moranthe is the Goddess of Witchcraft, and yet, I do not believe we've met a single witch who revered Moranthe. Most (Vlad, Morrolan, Arra, Noish-pa) revere Verra, and some (althought they might not have been witches) used to revere Tristangrascalaticrunagore. > 9. I don't know how Brokedown Palace fits in with all this. > > Bolk told Miklos to write down what happened. Brokedown > Palace, Chapter 17, page 266. The manuscript could have been > read into the shiny box. Hopefully, Miklos got some of the gold. Good catch, I hadn't noticed that line. Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Sun Nov 13 22:24:55 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:24:55 -0600 Subject: Concerning the Gods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c5e8e4$214c1930$6501a8c0@dell> > On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > > > Sethra Lavode > > Brokedown Palace > > Issola *applause* > > > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * spoiler space * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > > > > > > 2. Verra is slain (or, perhaps more accurately, "banished" from the > > East) in Brokedown Palace. Why can she still manifest in > the Empire (see Issola)? > > Is the Empire a different "plane of existence" than the East? > > Tri'nagore is also slain in the East, and yet there seems > to be little > > doubt that he is banished from the Empire as well as the > East. Does > > this imply that Dzur Mountain and the Lesser Sea of Chaos (the two > > places Verra manifests in > > Issola) are on different planes of existence than the rest of the > > world of Dragaera? > > > > I don't think that it would make sense to conclude that > different locations, which we know can be reached by simple > physical motion on the surface of the planet, are on > different planes of existence. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but to clarify my original question: what I was halfway thinking about possibly hinting at was that, perhaps, the Sea of Chaos (both of them?) and Dzur Mountain essentially "straddle" multiple planes, and so Verra can manifest there. If this were true, Deathgate Falls and the cave Zerika exits the Paths of the Dead from would probably also qualify as places Verra could manifest. Consider Morrolan's Tower. I would think that regardless of which theory is true, Verra should be able to manifest there. Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Sun Nov 13 22:29:00 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 00:29:00 -0600 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c5e8e4$b3a527e0$6501a8c0@dell> > To the left, it may have been a typo (of "Pel" for "Paarfi"). > I'm just sayin', is all. Steve sent me that email in February, but I didn't ask him about it until April. In my reply, I asked him a) was that a slip of the tongue and b) could I post it to the List to foster speculation. He answered a) he didn't even remember what we were talking about and b) go ahead. So he has neither confirmed or denied that attributing it to Pel instead of Paarfi was a mistake. Just to make it even more confusing, the line in question is the first sentence of the first chapter of The Phoenix Guards, describing the time and location where Khaavren meets Tazendra and Aerich--Pel isn't even there according to Paarfi. Bryan From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:28:50 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:28:50 -0800 Subject: Concerning the Gods In-Reply-To: <000d01c5e8e4$214c1930$6501a8c0@dell> References: <000d01c5e8e4$214c1930$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > > Does this imply that Dzur Mountain and the Lesser > > > Sea of Chaos (the two places Verra manifests in > > > Issola) are on different planes of existence than the > > > rest of the world of Dragaera? > > > > > > > I don't think that it would make sense to conclude that > > different locations, which we know can be reached by simple > > physical motion on the surface of the planet, are on > > different planes of existence. > > I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but to clarify my original question: > what I was halfway thinking about possibly hinting at was that, perhaps, the > Sea of Chaos (both of them?) and Dzur Mountain essentially "straddle" > multiple planes, and so Verra can manifest there. > > If this were true, Deathgate Falls and the cave Zerika exits the Paths of > the Dead from would probably also qualify as places Verra could manifest. Good points. And, as I recalled just now, the Paths of the Dead are also a location that can be reached by "simple physical motion on the surface of the planet", yet are not necessarily in the same plane of existence as the rest of Dragaera. So I can understand positing that there might be other locations like it. Indeed, the Necromancer suggests that there are hundreds of "locations where the boundaries between worlds are flawed". Not that we have enough information about whether the Sea or the Mountain are among those hundreds. > Consider Morrolan's Tower. I would think that regardless of which theory is > true, Verra should be able to manifest there. > Another good point. Morrolan's Tower is almost certainly a location that is dedicated to Verra, and is also a gate between worlds. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 14 08:19:26 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:19:26 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler Message-ID: There was something bothering me about this line of thinking, and I just figured out what it was. Paresh could not have "read Paarfi" and then embellished the story he told Vlad, since the Khaavren Romances weren't yet written at the time the conversation takes place. (According to the preface, we're into the rule of Norathar by the time of "Sethra Lavode" about 100-150 years after the events in "Teckla" where Paresh tells his story.) Now, this does bring up the possibility that Paresh may have, in fact, influenced Paarfi's version--though why Paarfi would take writing advice from a Teckla is a question that would need answering if this is the case. And I have suspicions about Paresh's likelyhood to survive 100 years living the kind of life he does, anyway. If the Jhereg haven't killed him by the turn of the cycle, he's likely to have ended up on the executioner's star for treason. Majikjon (Ooo! "Executioner's Star" needs a wikicites article. I'll have to go do that. Thanks for making me think of it.) On Paresh, Paarfi, and Aerich: It's also possible that the two stories are not related at all, or that Paresh has read Paarfi and is embroidering his history with details from the stories. While we might chuckle to think that the real-life Aerich was less cool-headed than his literary counterpart (Paarfi is, after all, a purveyor of romance novels), Paresh also says that his attacker tried to blast him with sorcery, with he adroitly dodged. This doesn't fit in well with Aerich, who isn't much of a sorcerer per the novels, and IIRC Tazendra's kidnapping takes place during the Interregnum. Perhaps the "daring Teckla teases the arrogant lordling" theme is common enough that Paresh and Paarfi both adopt it from a common source, whether or not the basic details are true in Paresh' case. IMHO, this is a case where Steve is teasing us. Much like the conflict between Morrolan's and Paarfi's accounts of the Zerika's descent from Deathgate. I don't know that it necessarily has a deeper meaning; maybe He does it just to be contrary. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051114/f2415856/attachment.htm From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 14 09:44:50 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:44:50 -0800 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi Message-ID: On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > The Phoenix Guards > The Paths of the Dead > The Lord of Castle Black > Sethra Lavode > Brokedown Palace > Jhereg > Taltos > Phoenix > Athyra > Orca > Issola > > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * spoiler space * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > > >Paarfi is secretly Pel! That would explain *so much*!!!! Actually, that WOULD make a certain amount of sense, actually. (Yes, I do realize this was meant to be sarcasm, but bear with me for a sec.) We know that Pel is no longer the Prime Minister (since there apparently isn't one at the time of "Orca"), so he seems to have vanished. Also, the "extra-curricular activities" that Paarfi engages in seem to be remarkably similar to those that Pel enjoyed during "The Phoenix Guards". It would not be outside the realm of possibility that a Yendi, with no distinctive physical House characteristics, might be able to pass for a member of another house, simply by dressing and acting a certain way. And if Paarfi's works are really as popular as he lets on, the books might be part of some elaborate Yendi scheme to achieve...something. If nothing else, during the Viscount of Adrilankha, Paarfi seems remarkably well informed about Kana's activities--and even about Pel's connections, which Kana didn't even know about. While it's certainly possible that Paarfi may have simply consulted with Pel, it should be considered that this consultation may have been restricted to the inside of a single cranium, as it were. And yes, I remember hearing Steve say that "nobody else is anybody else"... But then, Paarfi isn't so much a "character" in the books, as he is the ostensible "author" of them, so it could be an exception. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051114/5183fb67/attachment.html From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 14 09:51:59 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:51:59 -0800 Subject: Concerning the Gods Message-ID: > On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > > > Sethra Lavode > > Brokedown Palace > > Issola *applause* > > > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * spoiler space * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > * > > > > > > > 2. Verra is slain (or, perhaps more accurately, "banished" from the > > East) in Brokedown Palace. Why can she still manifest in > the Empire (see Issola)? > > Is the Empire a different "plane of existence" than the East? > > Tri'nagore is also slain in the East, and yet there seems > to be little > > doubt that he is banished from the Empire as well as the > East. Does > > this imply that Dzur Mountain and the Lesser Sea of Chaos (the two > > places Verra manifests in > > Issola) are on different planes of existence than the rest of the > > world of Dragaera? > > > >> I don't think that it would make sense to conclude that >> different locations, which we know can be reached by simple >> physical motion on the surface of the planet, are on >> different planes of existence. > >I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but to clarify my original question: >what I was halfway thinking about possibly hinting at was that, perhaps, the >Sea of Chaos (both of them?) and Dzur Mountain essentially "straddle" >multiple planes, and so Verra can manifest there. Or perhaps the presence of all that raw Amorphia right nearby causes a weakness in whatever it is that keeps her from appearing on Dragaera? I just keep thinking about the beginning of "Phoenix", where Verra has to influence Vlad to call her name, then BRINGS HIM to her halls, rather than simply appearing in Adrilankha. Of course, if I were a god, I probably wouldn't want to spend much time in the Easterner's Ghetto, either. :-) >If this were true, Deathgate Falls and the cave Zerika exits the Paths of >the Dead from would probably also qualify as places Verra could manifest. > >Consider Morrolan's Tower. I would think that regardless of which theory is >true, Verra should be able to manifest there. At the very least, we know that Verra has influence on events that occur on Dragaera. (The very existance of Morrolan's Window is direct evidence of this). Whether or not the window being there is enough to permit manifestation in a place from whence she has been expelled is another question, however. (Not that I'm saying she can't, just that we have no evidence either way, really.) Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051114/f8a3635d/attachment.htm From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 14 10:02:21 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:02:21 -0800 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi Message-ID: >Just to make it even more confusing, the line in question is the first >sentence of the first chapter of The Phoenix Guards, describing the time and >location where Khaavren meets Tazendra and Aerich--Pel isn't even there >according to Paarfi. > >Bryan This part seems to have some consistency problems on its own merits, anyway. It is established on the first page of Phoenix that we are in the Duchy of Luatha, and yet, we find Tazendra in the area "because she lives there". It is later established that Tazendra is from the Barony of Daavya, and that Daavya is located in the Duchy of Arylle. I see three basic ways to work this out: 1. Arylle and Luatha are right next to each other, and we meet Tazendra in a town that is on (or near) the border of both Daavya and Arylle. 2. When we meet Tzendra, she is living in exile in a place that is not her home. 3. Luatha really IS Arylle; Shaltre simply changed the name of the Duchy when he stole it from Aerich's parents. Of these, I'd say #2 is the most likely, since it's fairly consistent with the story, and Paarfi doesn't mention Luatha as "A duchy that was formerly (or is currently) known as something else". However, some of the comments in TPG seem to imply that Tazendra is, in fact, in her home territory at the time we meet her. Granted, most of these are speculative assumptions on the part of Khaavren before he knows any of this. Majikjon Just as an aside, the wonderful Dragaera map you've put online would be consistent with 2nd theory, but it would appear to have Arylle too far away from Dragaera city if either of the others are true. (60-70 leagues, by Paarfi, while on the map it looks to be closer to 180 leagues.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051114/b360863b/attachment.html From bryann at bryann.net Mon Nov 14 10:40:02 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:40:02 -0600 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c5e94a$d327a690$6501a8c0@dell> > It is established on the first page of Phoenix that we are in > the Duchy of Luatha, and yet, we find Tazendra in the area > "because she lives there". > > It is later established that Tazendra is from the Barony of > Daavya, and that Daavya is located in the Duchy of Arylle. > > I see three basic ways to work this out: ... > > 2. When we meet Tzendra, she is living in exile in a place > that is not her home. I believe #2 is correct: K: In a few years, we will have accumulated some leave, and we will go looking for these famous estates of yours [Tazendra's]. A: What is the name of your duchy? T: It was a barony, I know not where, only that it is called Daavya - The Phoenix Guards, pg 478 of the paperback: > Just as an aside, the wonderful Dragaera map you've put > online would be consistent with 2nd theory, but it would > appear to have Arylle too far away from Dragaera city if > either of the others are true. (60-70 leagues, by Paarfi, > while on the map it looks to be closer to 180 leagues.) First off, thank you. Second, while there are a number of problems with that version of the map, I don't think this is one of them. *crosses fingers* I've been working on the next version (which isn't quite ready to be released yet), and one of the questions I put to Steve was about the distance from Daavya to Dragaera City. Aerich and Tazendra pretend to make that journey in 30 hours in FHYA via the post, but Daavya appeared to me to be at least 700 miles from Dragaera City. This did not seem possible. Steve said 700 miles sounded about right, and did not dispute Paarfi's claim they made the trip in 30 hours. Perhaps Dragaeran horses are faster or have more endurance than their Terran equivalents. Bryan From steve at romlin.com Mon Nov 14 10:40:54 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:40:54 +0100 Subject: Different planes Message-ID: > > > If this were true, Deathgate Falls and the cave Zerika exits the Paths > of > > the Dead from would probably also qualify as places Verra could > manifest. > > Good points. And, as I recalled just now, the Paths of the Dead are > also a location that can be reached by "simple physical motion on the > surface of the planet", yet are not necessarily in the same plane of > existence as the rest of Dragaera. So I can understand positing that > there might be other locations like it. > If any two places on the planet (besides top and bottom of Deathgate Falls) could be said to be in separate planes of existence, it would have to be the East and the Empire. Remember the long description at the beginning of Morrolan's story on the amazingly large cliffs and huge desert you have to cross to get from one to the other? Plus the fact that the Easterners refer to the west as "Faerie", hardly the type of name you'd give a place that's just somewhere else. There's a definite attempt to create a geographical and metaphysical boundary here, not only on the part of the author, but also on the part of the Jenoine, or the gods, or whoever made that honkin' big cliff in the first place. -Steve the Younger P.S. I just made this observation as I was falling asleep the other day -- Good fantasy authors ask creative questions and give logical answers. Fans and followers tend instead to ask logical questions and give creative answers, which is why they're seldom the same as what the author will choose to do. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 14 12:46:04 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:46:04 -0800 Subject: Pel vs. Paarfi Message-ID: >I've been working on the next version (which isn't quite ready to be >released yet), and one of the questions I put to Steve was about the >distance from Daavya to Dragaera City. Aerich and Tazendra pretend to make >that journey in 30 hours in FHYA via the post, but Daavya appeared to me to >be at least 700 miles from Dragaera City. This did not seem possible. > >Steve said 700 miles sounded about right, and did not dispute Paarfi's claim >they made the trip in 30 hours. > >Perhaps Dragaeran horses are faster or have more endurance than their Terran >equivalents. That averages to a little over 23 miles per hour... Which would put them at a full gallop most of the way with no stopping to sleep or eat. Still, they were using the posts, which means fresh, fast horses every few leagues. Tazendra may have also been able to get extra mileage out of them using sorcery, as well. Given this as "flank speed" for traveling this distance, and assuming the roads were well kept, flat, and level, I could see this being at least somewhat plausable. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:08:42 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:08:42 -0700 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511141508s74b71bf7s7b6ddaccd79db14b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > There was something bothering me about this line of thinking, and I just > figured out what it was. > > Paresh could not have "read Paarfi" and then embellished the story he told > Vlad, since the Khaavren Romances weren't yet written at the time the > conversation takes place. > > (According to the preface, we're into the rule of Norathar by the time of > "Sethra Lavode" about 100-150 years after the events in "Teckla" where > Paresh tells his story.) > (AFB). So which Paarfi novels is it that Cawti likes to read? Too bad I don't remember which book that line is it. Maybe it's the other Paarfi? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Nov 14 15:22:07 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:22:07 -0800 Subject: Different planes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43791C1F.3010105@comcast.net> Steve Rapaport wrote: > P.S. I just made this observation as I was falling asleep the other day -- > >Good fantasy authors ask creative questions and give logical answers. Fans >and followers tend instead to ask logical questions and give creative >answers, which is why they're seldom the same as what the author will choose >to do. > They're two sides of the same coin, really. Or if you prefer, the same side of two coins. Majikjon From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:24:56 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 00:24:56 +0100 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511141508s74b71bf7s7b6ddaccd79db14b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson wrote: >To: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:08:42 -0700 > >On 11/14/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > There was something bothering me about this line of thinking, and I just > > figured out what it was. > > > > Paresh could not have "read Paarfi" and then embellished the story he >told > > Vlad, since the Khaavren Romances weren't yet written at the time the > > conversation takes place. > > > > (According to the preface, we're into the rule of Norathar by the time >of > > "Sethra Lavode" about 100-150 years after the events in "Teckla" where > > Paresh tells his story.) > > > >(AFB). So which Paarfi novels is it that Cawti likes to read? Too bad I >don't remember which book that line is it. Maybe it's the other Paarfi? > >Max Wilson > AFAICR that line is more on the lines of "Oh, you've clearly read too much Paarfi.", it doesn't mention a specific Paarfi book, though I'd assume it's either tPG or some earlier unmentioned book. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Nov 14 15:36:37 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:36:37 -0800 Subject: Soul destroying - Issola Spoiler In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511141508s74b71bf7s7b6ddaccd79db14b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0511141508s74b71bf7s7b6ddaccd79db14b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43791F85.4090804@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >>(AFB). So which Paarfi novels is it that Cawti likes to read? Too bad I >>don't remember which book that line is it. Maybe it's the other Paarfi? >> >> I believe you're looking for "Phoenix", at the end of the first chapter. "She put down her book, one of Paarfi's 'histories,' and greeted me without coolness..." I'm certain Paarfi has probably been writing books since the end of the Interregnum, but "Sethra Lavode" which is the Paarfi book that has the Paresh tale in it, is dated as being written in the 179th year of Norathar's reign. This, in fact, has to be at least 235 years after the events of Phoenix (in 244 PI) since Zerika ruled until at least 309 PI. Or maybe Cawti was reading an advance copy? How does one get an advance copy of Paarfi's books, anyway? I'd like to sign up for that myself. Majikjon From dovekie at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:44:12 2005 From: dovekie at gmail.com (dovekie) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:44:12 -0600 Subject: Concerning the Gods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <284f31be0511141544q638799cfn27fee163867cd3b5@mail.gmail.com> On 11/14/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > On 11/8/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > > Be warned there be Spoilers ahead for the following books: > > > > > > Sethra Lavode > > > Brokedown Palace > > > Issola > > *applause* > > > > > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * spoiler space * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Verra is slain (or, perhaps more accurately, "banished" from the > > > East) in Brokedown Palace. Why can she still manifest in > > the Empire (see Issola)? > > > Is the Empire a different "plane of existence" than the East? > > > Tri'nagore is also slain in the East, and yet there seems > > to be little > > > doubt that he is banished from the Empire as well as the > > East. Does > > > this imply that Dzur Mountain and the Lesser Sea of Chaos (the two > > > places Verra manifests in > > > Issola) are on different planes of existence than the rest of the > > > world of Dragaera? > > > > > > >> I don't think that it would make sense to conclude that > >> different locations, which we know can be reached by simple > >> physical motion on the surface of the planet, are on > >> different planes of existence. > > > >I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but to clarify my original question: > >what I was halfway thinking about possibly hinting at was that, perhaps, > the > >Sea of Chaos (both of them?) and Dzur Mountain essentially "straddle" > >multiple planes, and so Verra can manifest there. > > Or perhaps the presence of all that raw Amorphia right nearby causes a > weakness in whatever it is that keeps her from appearing on Dragaera? > > I just keep thinking about the beginning of "Phoenix", where Verra has to > influence Vlad to call her name, then BRINGS HIM to her halls, rather than > simply appearing in Adrilankha. I just got around to re-reading Phoenix, and got to the part where Vlad says that Verra can't even speak to mortals unless they call on her. "According to my sources" or something like that. Could this be a consequence of the banishing? Triquishargiface (books are on loan; too lazy to look up the real spelling) doesn't seem to have much trouble appearing to Morrolan when he, ah, desecrates that altar in Viscount. Or maybe that counts as "calling on" a god... Honestly I wouldn't expect gods to obey understandable rules, if only 'cause I'm rather the supersitious Easterner sometimes... sara.h ------------------------------------ No animals were harmed in the making of this email. This email is 100% biodegradable and pesticide-free. ------------------------------------ Slowsilver: A site for gamers http://slowsilver.darja.net/ We're so fast, we move backwards! ------------------------------------ From david at mail.crlf.net Tue Nov 15 12:03:28 2005 From: david at mail.crlf.net (David Maxwell) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:03:28 -0500 Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051115200328.GD16863@mail> On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Johne Cook wrote: > On 11/13/05, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Not that it means a whole lot, but Amazon now has a release date listed for > > the newest Vlad Taltos novel "Dzur" (see note below). > > > > Dzur (Vlad) (Hardcover) > > by Steven Brust > > Hardcover: 320 pages > > Publisher: Tor Books (August 8, 2006) > > Language: English > > ISBN: 0765301482 > > > > note - (the title of which will be changed to "Vlad Taltos" since the > > publisher's sales reps and the store buyers will be unable to pronounce > > Dzur) It's interesting that Amazon lists it as Dzur (Vlad) though. Maybe it will say Dzur after all? So, if it comes out as something other than 'Dzur' - I'm torn. I like to treat my books well, and keep them in good condition. However, in this case, I'd rather have a book that matches the author's vision of it, as well as complementing the other books I already have. So, if the book is published and NOT called Dzur - who else is interested in an aftermarket print run of dustjackets with the _correct_ name? :-) -- David Maxwell, david at vex.net|david at maxwell.net --> From a real request to a helpdesk "Can you please open the following ports in the firewall: 1024-90000" - Anonymous to protect the guilty From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Nov 15 12:19:26 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) In-Reply-To: <20051115200328.GD16863@mail> References: <20051115200328.GD16863@mail> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, David Maxwell wrote: > So, if the book is published and NOT called Dzur - who else is interested > in an aftermarket print run of dustjackets with the _correct_ name? :-) Concept. I think I'd first want a dustjacket of _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_ - one with an image of Sethra on it. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 15 12:25:10 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:25:10 -0800 Subject: Dzur (Amazon release date listed) Message-ID: So what, We're making a market for after-market dust jackets now? ;-) I want mine done by Kathana e'Marish'Chala, with that great pic of the wounded Dragon. Majikjon Incidentally, from what I can tell, that whole note about the publisher changing the name of Dzur was a sarcastic joke gone awry. The name is Dzur. It appears that it will remain Dzur. There is no reason to think that it will not. There. Hope that settles that little vicious rumor... On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, David Maxwell wrote: > So, if the book is published and NOT called Dzur - who else is interested > in an aftermarket print run of dustjackets with the _correct_ name? :-) Concept. I think I'd first want a dustjacket of _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_ - one with an image of Sethra on it. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:55:23 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:55:23 -0700 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511151455k6fb13a32kda0c1192f4b32c74@mail.gmail.com> On 11/13/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > Too bad Paarfi doesn't subscribe to the mailing list, or we could just > > ask him. > > Who knows? Maybe Paarfi's subscribed under a different name. Who's the > most long-winded poster here? Who's the purest pro-Paarfi poster? Who's > the most pro-Sethra poster? I nominate Mr. Mark A. Mandel. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 15 15:04:57 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:04:57 -0500 Subject: Different planes Message-ID: <7462E780.31576EA1.00048EA6@aol.com> Jon Lincicum writes: >Steve Rapaport wrote: > >> Good fantasy authors ask creative questions and give logical >> answers. Fans and followers tend instead to ask logical questions >> and give creative answers, which is why they're seldom the same >> as what the author will choose to do. >> > They're two sides of the same coin, really. > > Or if you prefer, the same side of two coins. There is only one side; it's a moebius coin. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Nov 16 04:23:06 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:23:06 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Projects In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511151455k6fb13a32kda0c1192f4b32c74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d401c5eaa8$810d8780$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Hi all, As part of the Brust Fan summit in 2006 we hope to unveil the official art for each house and the Dragaeran Tarot (see next mail for the Tarot) The art will be in full color format (for shirts and sticker and such) and in line drawing form (for use in a representation of the Cycle that Steve would like to use on all future Dagaera books). I have had several artists working on this for almost a year now, and whilst Steven has seen and approved some of the art there are still several houses that need to be completed - in both formats. If any of you or anyone you know has the skill to render these representations and the inclination to get me such art for use in future publications and Brust centric goodies please mail me your jpegs and or gifs of such. There will be a small percentage to the artists for any sales of such art, but for the most part the artists' reward will be publication credits and bragging rights - Steve will get the Lion's share of the profits on any of this. My in house artists' deadline was yesterday - and as I said, not all of the art is complete, my print deadline is January 15th. What I would like to do is submit all of the yet to be approved submissions to Steve by the end of this year, then we will announce who's art will be used for each needed piece by Jan 10th. If you have any questions about this project please do not hesitate to ask. I may be reached by e-mail here about half the time, or by Phone at 303-359-7073 pretty much all of the time. Thanks for your love of the world and your help! Rion Bergquist - CEO Carpovita Press & Exec Director Opus Arts Festival - www.opusfest.com From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Nov 16 04:37:38 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:37:38 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck Message-ID: <00d501c5eaaa$87da55a0$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Hi all, According to Steve, most card games on Dragaera are played with the Dragaeran Tarot deck - so we intend to release said Tarot deck at the 2006 Fan summit. Steve and my partner Sage have discussed what the incarna should be and various other attributes of the project but we have not, as of yet, finalized anything. At this point we are waiting for three things: - the art (see previous mail) - final determination of what house and other Dragaeran iconic representations should be which arcana and - final approval from Steve who has the answers to all such things somewhere in his wondrously creative brain. So to help us ensure that we have everything in its proper place Sage has asked me to ask all of you - as you are the foremost experts of the world next to Steve - what you all think would be in a Dragaeran Tarot deck. Please keep in mind that this deck is to be the deck that Dragaerans would use, so individuals highlighted in the book will (for the most part) be out of bounds. A Dragaeran would not use a deck that had a relatively unknown Vlad as the Death card - they might however happily use one that had a overdone characterization of an Easterner as the Fool... Hopefully that gives you an idea of what we are looking for. Just like the other stuff this project should be going to press Jan 15th. As such I need your answers, suppositions and conversation on this subject ASAP. Please copy Sage into the loop on all tarot specific ramblings If you have any questions about this project or any other part of the Summit festivities please do not hesitate to ask. Sage is the Tarot expert and she may be reached at sbrwake at yahoo.com I am running the production schedules and may be reached by e-mail here about half the time, or by phone at 303-359-7073 pretty much all of the time. Thanks again for your love of the world and your help! Rion Bergquist - CEO Carpovita Press & Exec Director Opus Arts Festival - www.opusfest.com From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Nov 16 09:09:10 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:09:10 -0800 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <00d501c5eaaa$87da55a0$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <601f01c5ead0$75f1df90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> What does the Dragaeran Tarot represent? In the real world, Tarot operates on several levels. At the highest level, it's a symbolic guidebook of the stages of life and enlightenment and a kind of philosophical teaching aide. At the middle level it's a semi-magical apparatus full of arcane symbology (how much depends on the agenda of the publisher of any particular deck) which lends itself to divination of various sorts. At the lowest level, it's simply a fancy deck of playing cards. It's rather amusing to look through a modern Tarrochi deck because the cards are duplicated vertically in the same fashion as a deck of standard playing cards. The Hanged Man, for instance, becomes nothing more than two pairs of disembodied legs joined at the waist. I can only recall one instance of divination in the stories and I don't recall whether the fortune teller was using cards for it or not. In any case, a Dragaeran Tarot would have to symbolically cover the philosophical questions that a citizen of the Empire would find to be both important and enlightening. The number 17 would clearly be an important one in such a deck. The more mundance uses of the deck to play Shereba, for instance, would be a consequence of the design rather than a driving force behind it, much like Tarrochi is a poker-like game (or maybe bridge-like, I forget) that happens to be played with a Tarot deck. I guess the biggest question to answer is whether this is to be truly a "Dragarean Tarot" or if it's simply a standard Tarot illustrated with Dragaeran imagery. The latter would be easier to create, while the former would be of more interest though to a possibly narrower audience. (There are plenty of people who collect "standard" Tarot decks who might be interested in a Dragaeran Tarot.) If we're talking about a true Dragarean Tarot, then I'd have to firstly recommend bugging Steve for some input. The Major Arcana is where the meat of a Tarot deck lies. The typical illustration of this is to take the Major arcana and deal it out in order in the shape of an infinity symbol, half to the left, half to the right. The path laid out this way begins with the Fool, intersects with, I believe, The Hermit, and ends with the Fool again. On one level, the cards symbolically describe the stages of life as one grows from childhood to old age. On another, it represents the growth of the soul and the enlightenment of the soul that manages to shed its cares, worries, and illusions in order to understand the universe in its true state. The Fool is two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, he's the uneducated lout with no knowledge of a higher state who's oblivious to his place in the universe. On the other, he's the enlightened soul, free from the bondage of earthly limitations and desires and, therefore, of the conventions that make the unenlightened view him as someone who is frivolous and otherwise unmindful of the niceties of society. An Easterner would be unlikely to be depicted as the Fool in this case. I'd imagine that the seventeen Houses would be represented, but I wouldn't expect them to each have their own card. Each of the Houses is defined by a set of concepts - a set of colors, a defining personality trait, a defining profession. I would expect portraits of those Houses to appear on cards that deal with the underlying symbology of the House itself. The Major Arcana would probably consist of 17 cards rather than the 22 that make up our earthly Tarot. The Wheel of Fortune is a rather direct analog for The Cycle, which would certainly be embodied in its own card. Death could be replaced by The Paths of the Dead, which in itself is also very analagous. Fortune tellers aside, Death in the Tarot is more commonly understood to be Transformation rather than corporeal death. The Paths likewise represent transition from one life to another, one state to another, and the actual Paths themselves are a kind of symbolic struggle to make that transition from one state of being to the next. The Tower could be represented in some way by The Cataclysm, referring to Adron's Disaster if this is a recent deck. If the symbology is assumed to be ancient then a more general symbolism of Amorphia or Chaos might be appropriate. The Halls of Judgement would replace Judgment and the meaning would obviously be rather different given that the Christian symbology of Judgement Day and the Ressurection don't really apply to a world where reincarnation is a scientific fact. One method of condensing the Major Arcana would be to replace all of The Empress, The Emporer, The Heirophant, and the High Priestess with simply The Emperor or possibly The Orb. Here again, the symbolism would have to change as well because the symbolism of these four cards is rather different that what one might expect the Orb to represent to Dragaeran society, especially since the Emperor/Empress, Priestess/Heirophant dichotmies include a great deal of Christian vs. Pagan symbolism that isn't really appropriate to the Dragera cycle. I could see an argument, however, in favor of replacing the High Priestess with The Enchantress illustrated with a depiction of Sethra Lavode. Sethra's status as a living legend would certainly lend itself to such commemoration, and I'd imagine it could be a rather amusing story point as well. Of course, the cards illustrated during Vlad's divination would have to be incorporated as well. I don't remember what those were at the moment. Given that in Dragaera magic is real and the Lords of Judgement are likewise accepted as being both real and powerful, I'd expect images and symbols related to the most important of them to appear scattered throughout the Lesser Arcana, more or less subtly. The lesser arcana depicts on a simple level the structure of society in Europe at the time of its creation. Swords are the military/rulers, coins/pentacles are the merchants, staves are the peasants/farmers, and cups the priesthood. In Dragaeran society we seem to have three strata. The aristocracy, the merchants/seamen, and the peasants. Merchants and Jhereg are ostensibly aristocracy but in practice they are treated rather differently than the landed nobility so it seems fair to treat them as a class unto themselves. I think it's fair to lump the Jhereg in with the Merchant class, particularly given the prevailing attitude that a criminal is actually more admirable than a merchant, due to the criminal at least being honest about his thievery. I could see going a couple of different directions. The lesser arcana could be either three suits (Jhereg subsumed within the others) or four (Jhereg its own suit). I'd be inclined towards a three suit lesser arcana consisting of seventeen cards each, depicting the seventeen houses symbolically. This something Steve really should tell us, since he's got to have a basic idea of the composition of a Dragaeran tarot deck. From sbrwake at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 10:17:39 2005 From: sbrwake at yahoo.com (SB Bergquist) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:17:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: More on the Tarot Deck Message-ID: <20051116181739.74001.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Some help if you are one who would like to try and match houses and other aspects of the Dragaeran world to the tarot deck. Rion meant to say we're working on the Major Arcana. To familiarize yourself with the general purpose behind each card, here is a great link to basic Tarot card interpretation: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/divtarotmajorarcana.html There are 22 Major Arcana but only 17 houses in Brust's world so we have a translation with 5 additional aspects of Dragaera to make up the 22 total. But, being you all are the really BIG fans we thought we ought to see how closely our Major Arcana comes to what some of you might like to see. There is also the minor arcana which has four elements to base its 52 cards on (like poker cards having spades, diamonds, hearts and clubs). The common minor arcana elements are the wand, pentacle, cup and sword. We figured we could keep those elements, except change the pentacle to coin (that element deals with wealth and success) since witchcraft is not an accepted craft for Dragaerans. We are looking forward to seeing what you all come up with! --Sage --- Rion Bergquist wrote: > Hi all, > > According to Steve, most card games on Dragaera are played with the > Dragaeran Tarot deck - so we intend to release said Tarot deck at > the 2006 > Fan summit. > > Steve and my partner Sage have discussed what the incarna should be > and > various other attributes of the project but we have not, as of yet, > finalized anything. > > At this point we are waiting for three things: > - the art (see previous mail) > - final determination of what house and other Dragaeran iconic > representations should be which arcana > and > - final approval from Steve who has the answers to all such things > somewhere > in his wondrously creative brain. > > So to help us ensure that we have everything in its proper place > Sage has > asked me to ask all of you - as you are the foremost experts of the > world > next to Steve - what you all think would be in a Dragaeran Tarot > deck. > > Please keep in mind that this deck is to be the deck that > Dragaerans would > use, so individuals highlighted in the book will (for the most > part) be out > of bounds. A Dragaeran would not use a deck that had a relatively > unknown > Vlad as the Death card - they might however happily use one that > had a > overdone characterization of an Easterner as the Fool... > > Hopefully that gives you an idea of what we are looking for. Just > like the > other stuff this project should be going to press Jan 15th. As > such I need > your answers, suppositions and conversation on this subject ASAP. > Please > copy Sage into the loop on all tarot specific ramblings > > If you have any questions about this project or any other part of > the Summit > festivities please do not hesitate to ask. > Sage is the Tarot expert and she may be reached at > sbrwake at yahoo.com > I am running the production schedules and may be reached by e-mail > here > about half the time, or by phone at 303-359-7073 pretty much all of > the > time. > > Thanks again for your love of the world and your help! > > Rion Bergquist - > CEO Carpovita Press & Exec Director Opus Arts Festival - > www.opusfest.com --SB Bergquist Fantasy Arts Enterprises 397 S. Revere St. Aurora, CO 80012 Phone: 303-364-6003 Fax 303-364-6003 Opus Festival website: www.opusfest.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From alexx at panix.com Wed Nov 16 10:40:37 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:40:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <601f01c5ead0$75f1df90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <200511161840.jAGIebx16648@panix2.panix.com> >In the real world, Tarot operates > on several levels. At the highest level, it's a symbolic guidebook of the > stages of life and enlightenment and a kind of philosophical teaching aide. > At the middle level it's a semi-magical apparatus full of arcane symbology > (how much depends on the agenda of the publisher of any particular deck) > which lends itself to divination of various sorts. At the lowest level, it's > simply a fancy deck of playing cards. True today, but... > The more mundance uses of the deck to play Shereba, for instance, > would be a consequence of the design rather than a driving force behind it, > much like Tarrochi is a poker-like game (or maybe bridge-like, I forget) > that happens to be played with a Tarot deck. I have a friend who has done a lot of research into the history of both games and the occult. Tarot decks were used for gaming for, literally, centuries before the fortune-telling aspects were invented (IIRC, in late 18th century France) The exact origin of the "major arcana" symbolism is unknown, but I've heard plausible speculation that it was a representation of the "floats" in Italian religious parades. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx >From "101 Spells Not Worth Memorizing": "6.5 Charm Dead 6.6 Charm Friends 6.7 Charm Potted Plants 7. Charm Self" From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 11:53:43 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:53:43 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <200511161840.jAGIebx16648@panix2.panix.com> References: <601f01c5ead0$75f1df90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <200511161840.jAGIebx16648@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: Well, what I'd visualize instead of a Dzur card, or an Orca card, is 17 cards of characters of each house with an analogue to one of the arcana with the house symbol on the corners perhaps, then the 5 other cards without the house markings, like; Vlad as the Death card, Tortaliik(sp) as the Emperor card, perhaps an Easterner card? certainly a card for the Orb, Zerika could represent the Phoenix (and could fit nicely within the Empress as an example), the lovers could be Piro and Ibronka. Pel could be the hanged man, Aerich could (possibly) be Strength, though Khaavren could fit. Tri-whatever (god who was killed by M in Sethra Lavode) could be a nice Devil. I think that Vlad should represent Death, however. No other character has changed more than him and the Death card represents change From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 11:55:42 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:55:42 -0500 Subject: Dolivar Message-ID: Mr. Brust- Could you clarify if Sethra/Dolivar were lovers? If you didn't think of it but might use it now? Or you have no idea what I'm talking about, to quote a certain acquintance of yours whenever someone asks him about the forgotten god? From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:22:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:22:01 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: <004001c5ea72$6e174fc0$b401a8c0@TOSHIBA> References: <004001c5ea72$6e174fc0$b401a8c0@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: (originally a reply to me, now replying back to list, since it seems appropriate) On 11/15/05, Robert Pierce wrote: > Do we know for a fact that the orb can't revivify Easterners? Actually, we know for a fact that the orb can indeed revivify Easterners. > I would assume that, as the bearer of the orb, Zerika could > heal and revivify Lazlo to her heart's content, effectively giving > him her lifespan. > Well, I am of two minds about this. To the right, in the world of Dragaera, while sorcery can indeed extend life, sometimes by a very great amount indeed, for the most part, sorcery does not seem to be able to extend life to the degree suggested above. Sorcerers are often described as being old, and looking old. So, too, are witches described as being old. Well, one witch (Noish-pa), anyway, and I'm generalizing from one example. So it does not appear that magic can easily "cure" old age, for whatever reasons. In addition, despite having the Orb, Zerika does not seem to be a sorceress herself, and Emperors are not noted as being granted extended lifespans simply by bearing the Orb. To the left, I would posit that the decrepitudes of old age are indeed nothing more than accumulated damage at the cellular and genetic levels. If sorcery can heal disease and trauma at a larger physical level, it *should* be possible to simply heal old age - if not in oneself, then in another, and sorcerers could simply take turns in making sure that they are all effectively unagingly immortal. And as an example, there is the Sorceress in Green, whose lifespan seems to be unusually long even for a Dragaeran, since she is apparantly recorded as being in operation several cycles before the current one, which is indeed a long time. But the SiG is mysterious, and perhaps there have been several persons with the same appellation. There is also Sethra Lavode, who is older than the Empire, but she is special in many ways, and I sincerely doubt that her long life is *solely* due to the benefits of the Orb. So, ultimately, who can say? > -The no-longer lurking Bobby G > You might want to keep in mind that the list defaults to replying to sender; if you want to be sure that the list sees it, you ought to do a "reply all". Or just copy-and-paste the list address. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:30:48 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:30:48 -0700 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: References: <004001c5ea72$6e174fc0$b401a8c0@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511161230w50b72690r7dd4c58786909058@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > looking old. So, too, are witches described as being old. Well, one > witch (Noish-pa), anyway, and I'm generalizing from one example. So Actually, I would expect witchcraft to have an easier time than sorcery countering the effects of old age, given that witchcraft seems to be mostly about (self-) awareness, while sorcery is more like a tool for manipulating power. I suspect that Arra's and Laszlo's longevity is a witchcraft side-effect. To the left, I would posit that the decrepitudes of old age are indeed > nothing more than accumulated damage at the cellular and genetic > levels. If sorcery can heal disease and trauma at a larger physical > level, it *should* be possible to simply heal old age - if not in > oneself, then in another, and sorcerers could simply take turns in > making sure that they are all effectively unagingly immortal. And it *should* be possible to reattach severed heads, or repair the damage done by a dagger to the eye. They don't seem to know how to do that yet, and perhaps old age is similar. And as an example, there is the Sorceress in Green, whose lifespan > seems to be unusually long even for a Dragaeran, since she is > apparantly recorded as being in operation several cycles before the > current one, which is indeed a long time. But the SiG is mysterious, > and perhaps there have been several persons with the same appellation. > > There is also Sethra Lavode, who is older than the Empire, but she is > special in many ways, and I sincerely doubt that her long life is > *solely* due to the benefits of the Orb. > Both good points. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Nov 16 13:05:40 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:05:40 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61ca01c5eaf1$7fc741b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > There is also Sethra Lavode, who is older than the Empire, but she is > special in many ways, and I sincerely doubt that her long life is > *solely* due to the benefits of the Orb. > Technically speaking, Sethra has been dead for majority of the existence of the Empire. Not that it's really seemed to inconvenience her all that much... I guess we don't really know if Sethra's unlife if attributable to sorcery, the grace of the Gods or both. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:04:26 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:04:26 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511161230w50b72690r7dd4c58786909058@mail.gmail.com> References: <004001c5ea72$6e174fc0$b401a8c0@TOSHIBA> <2ddbda5f0511161230w50b72690r7dd4c58786909058@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/16/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 11/16/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > looking old. So, too, are witches described as being old. Well, one > > witch (Noish-pa), anyway, and I'm generalizing from one example. So > > > Actually, I would expect witchcraft to have an easier time than sorcery > countering the effects of old age, given that witchcraft seems to be mostly > about (self-) awareness, while sorcery is more like a tool for manipulating > power. I suspect that Arra's and Laszlo's longevity is a witchcraft > side-effect. Well, perhaps. I've mentioned my doubts about those characters elsewhere, and I will just add here that Paarfi probably does not know much, if anything, about witchcraft personally, and might well therefore be given to exaggerating its capabilities. The same goes for necromancy, I would think. I find myself wishing I could read some of the primary sources regarding the 9th (or 10th) Battle of Dzur Mountain, and the Battle of Adrilankha, just to be sure that the events that Paarfi writes about were indeed recorded as happening. > > To the left, I would posit that the decrepitudes of old age are indeed > > nothing more than accumulated damage at the cellular and genetic > > levels. If sorcery can heal disease and trauma at a larger physical > > level, it *should* be possible to simply heal old age - if not in > > oneself, then in another, and sorcerers could simply take turns in > > making sure that they are all effectively unagingly immortal. > > > And it *should* be possible to reattach severed heads, or repair the damage > done by a dagger to the eye. They don't seem to know how to do that yet, and > perhaps old age is similar. Well, in that case, the problem is definitely damage to the brain. Aging of the brain might be a a non-reparable problem, but if that's the *only* problem, very old sorcerers should still *look* young (or ageless), since the appearance of age is mostly in the skin and other non-brain tissue, which should theoretically be reparable. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 16 13:10:52 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:10:52 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners Message-ID: Actually, it is unclear when Sethra became "undead". It was only brought to the attention of the Empire "a few hundred years" before the events of "The Phoenix Guards". (Presumably during the Lavode scandal) But with the Empire's age of well over two hundred THOUSAND years, a few hundred years is nothing. While it is POSSIBLE she's been undead for most of this time, we really don't know for sure, since she was hiding it for a while before the fact was uncovered. I'd say the preponderence of text evidence points more towards Sethra's longevity being related to her association with Dzur Mountain more than any other single factor. Majikjon >> There is also Sethra Lavode, who is older than the Empire, but she is >> special in many ways, and I sincerely doubt that her long life is >> *solely* due to the benefits of the Orb. >> > >Technically speaking, Sethra has been dead for majority of the existence of >the Empire. Not that it's really seemed to inconvenience her all that >much... > >I guess we don't really know if Sethra's unlife if attributable to sorcery, >the grace of the Gods or both. From alexx at panix.com Wed Nov 16 14:29:22 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:29:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511162229.jAGMTMC08141@panix3.panix.com> > > Actually, it is unclear when Sethra became "undead". > > It was only brought to the attention of the Empire "a few hundred years" > before the events of "The Phoenix Guards". (Presumably during the Lavode > scandal) Nitpick: In FHYA (p.58) it says she died "some hundreds of years" *before* the Lavode Scandal. It is my hypothesis that this scandal may have (at least in part) involved Sethra's status as undead becoming public knowledge (either as cause or effect). Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "It is a rather pleasant experience to be alone in a bank at night." -- Willie Sutton From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 14:31:02 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:31:02 -0700 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: <61ca01c5eaf1$7fc741b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <61ca01c5eaf1$7fc741b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511161431p38fdbd7dpcee1d0d92a4bf8f4@mail.gmail.com> On 11/16/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > There is also Sethra Lavode, who is older than the Empire, but she is > > special in many ways, and I sincerely doubt that her long life is > > *solely* due to the benefits of the Orb. > > > > Technically speaking, Sethra has been dead for majority of the existence > of > the Empire. Not that it's really seemed to inconvenience her all that > much... > ??? I thought Sethra had died only relatively recently. Like within the last couple of Cycles. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 16 14:33:16 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:33:16 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners Message-ID: IIRC, "The Lavode Scandal" was, indeed, a couple hundred years before the events of TPG, yes? And Sethra is said to have been dead "For several Hundred Years" prior to this. Either way, it doesn't make a dent in the 220,000 year history of the Empire. Majikjon > Actually, it is unclear when Sethra became "undead". > > It was only brought to the attention of the Empire "a few hundred years" > before the events of "The Phoenix Guards". (Presumably during the Lavode > scandal) Nitpick: In FHYA (p.58) it says she died "some hundreds of years" *before* the Lavode Scandal. It is my hypothesis that this scandal may have (at least in part) involved Sethra's status as undead becoming public knowledge (either as cause or effect). Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "It is a rather pleasant experience to be alone in a bank at night." -- Willie Sutton From alexx at panix.com Wed Nov 16 14:39:50 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:39:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511162239.jAGMdoC04111@panix3.panix.com> > > IIRC, "The Lavode Scandal" was, indeed, a couple hundred years before the > events of TPG, yes? > > And Sethra is said to have been dead "For several Hundred Years" prior to > this. > > Either way, it doesn't make a dent in the 220,000 year history of the > Empire. Correct on all counts. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx Thou shalt eat green eggs and ham -- obey thy God, I-am-that-I-am. [Seen on a Nancy Button, www.nancybuttons.com] From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 16 14:49:46 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:49:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > IIRC, "The Lavode Scandal" was, indeed, a couple hundred years before the > events of TPG, yes? > > And Sethra is said to have been dead "For several Hundred Years" prior to > this. > > Either way, it doesn't make a dent in the 220,000 year history of the > Empire. Either way it's not evidence of anything except that she's been dead recently. You might consider the possibility that Sethra was joking about how long she had been dead - perhaps in reference to how long she got away with her pretence. Or being coolly disdainful to some upstart Athyra who discovered her status - "You're dead!" "Yes, I have been dead for some hundreds of years. Perhaps you will be dead in some hundredths of seconds." From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 16 14:56:33 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:56:33 -0800 Subject: On the longevity of Easterners Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> IIRC, "The Lavode Scandal" was, indeed, a couple hundred years before the >> events of TPG, yes? >> >> And Sethra is said to have been dead "For several Hundred Years" prior to >> this. >> >> Either way, it doesn't make a dent in the 220,000 year history of the >> Empire. > >Either way it's not evidence of anything except that she's been dead >recently. Which is exactly the point I was originally trying to make. :-) >You might consider the possibility that Sethra was joking about how long >she had been dead - perhaps in reference to how long she got away with her >pretence. Or being coolly disdainful to some upstart Athyra who >discovered her status - "You're dead!" "Yes, I have been dead for some >hundreds of years. Perhaps you will be dead in some hundredths of >seconds." Tee hee. I like the supposition. It does, indeed, sound like something Sethra would say. (Especially considering the "Athyra" in question was likely Empress Cherova III...) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 16 15:02:39 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: On the longevity of Easterners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's this dragaera-bounces thing? Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:56:33 -0800 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com To: Philip Hart Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info, dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: [snip] From dovekie at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 15:13:29 2005 From: dovekie at gmail.com (dovekie) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:13:29 -0600 Subject: More on the Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <20051116181739.74001.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051116181739.74001.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <284f31be0511161513q7861e9fcn9a2b529c621b72be@mail.gmail.com> I think there should be an Orb card, and maybe one for Chaos... call it Amorphia, maybe. I'd be in favor of a Horse card as well. Let's see... that's twenty. Two more. The Furnace is a gimme, and... how about Night? In a starless world, nighttime will have its own particular quality. So, one for each house, and the Orb, Chaos, the Horse, and Night. Or the Cycle. That would be a good one. I think, anyway. On 11/16/05, SB Bergquist wrote: > > Some help if you are one who would like to try and match houses and > other aspects of the Dragaeran world to the tarot deck. Rion meant to > say we're working on the Major Arcana. To familiarize yourself with > the general purpose behind each card, here is a great link to basic > Tarot card interpretation: > > http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/divtarotmajorarcana.html > > There are 22 Major Arcana but only 17 houses in Brust's world so we > have a translation with 5 additional aspects of Dragaera to make up > the 22 total. But, being you all are the really BIG fans we thought > we ought to see how closely our Major Arcana comes to what some of > you might like to see. > > There is also the minor arcana which has four elements to base its 52 > cards on (like poker cards having spades, diamonds, hearts and > clubs). The common minor arcana elements are the wand, pentacle, cup > and sword. We figured we could keep those elements, except change the > pentacle to coin (that element deals with wealth and success) since > witchcraft is not an accepted craft for Dragaerans. > > We are looking forward to seeing what you all come up with! > > --Sage > > > --- Rion Bergquist wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > According to Steve, most card games on Dragaera are played with the > > Dragaeran Tarot deck - so we intend to release said Tarot deck at > > the 2006 > > Fan summit. > > > > Steve and my partner Sage have discussed what the incarna should be > > and > > various other attributes of the project but we have not, as of yet, > > finalized anything. > > > > At this point we are waiting for three things: > > - the art (see previous mail) > > - final determination of what house and other Dragaeran iconic > > representations should be which arcana > > and > > - final approval from Steve who has the answers to all such things > > somewhere > > in his wondrously creative brain. > > > > So to help us ensure that we have everything in its proper place > > Sage has > > asked me to ask all of you - as you are the foremost experts of the > > world > > next to Steve - what you all think would be in a Dragaeran Tarot > > deck. > > > > Please keep in mind that this deck is to be the deck that > > Dragaerans would > > use, so individuals highlighted in the book will (for the most > > part) be out > > of bounds. A Dragaeran would not use a deck that had a relatively > > unknown > > Vlad as the Death card - they might however happily use one that > > had a > > overdone characterization of an Easterner as the Fool... > > > > Hopefully that gives you an idea of what we are looking for. Just > > like the > > other stuff this project should be going to press Jan 15th. As > > such I need > > your answers, suppositions and conversation on this subject ASAP. > > Please > > copy Sage into the loop on all tarot specific ramblings > > > > If you have any questions about this project or any other part of > > the Summit > > festivities please do not hesitate to ask. > > Sage is the Tarot expert and she may be reached at > > sbrwake at yahoo.com > > I am running the production schedules and may be reached by e-mail > > here > > about half the time, or by phone at 303-359-7073 pretty much all of > > the > > time. > > > > Thanks again for your love of the world and your help! > > > > Rion Bergquist - > > CEO Carpovita Press & Exec Director Opus Arts Festival - > > www.opusfest.com > > --SB Bergquist > Fantasy Arts Enterprises > 397 S. Revere St. Aurora, CO 80012 > Phone: 303-364-6003 > Fax 303-364-6003 > Opus Festival website: www.opusfest.com > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- ------------------------------------ No animals were harmed in the making of this email. This email is 100% biodegradable and pesticide-free. ------------------------------------ Slowsilver: A site for gamers http://slowsilver.darja.net/ We're so fast, we move backwards! ------------------------------------ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 16 15:18:18 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:18:18 -0800 Subject: Dolivar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <437BBE3A.6060907@dreamcafe.com> No, Sethra and Dolivar were not lovers. Louis Eastman wrote: > Mr. Brust- > Could you clarify if Sethra/Dolivar were lovers? If you didn't think of > it but might use it now? Or you have no idea what I'm talking about, to > quote a certain acquintance of yours whenever someone asks him about the > forgotten god? From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 16 15:34:30 2005 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:34:30 -0800 Subject: Dolivar In-Reply-To: <437BBE3A.6060907@dreamcafe.com> References: <437BBE3A.6060907@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <437BC206.20700@Sun.COM> Steve? Are you ill? That nearly seems a straight-forward answer. Hmm...Now I'm suspicious. :) Chris Steven Brust wrote On 11/16/05 15:18,: > No, Sethra and Dolivar were not lovers. > > Louis Eastman wrote: > >>Mr. Brust- >>Could you clarify if Sethra/Dolivar were lovers? If you didn't think of >>it but might use it now? Or you have no idea what I'm talking about, to >>quote a certain acquintance of yours whenever someone asks him about the >>forgotten god? > > From ReVibe68 at aol.com Wed Nov 16 16:50:49 2005 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:50:49 EST Subject: Dolivar Message-ID: <25.6cf0a9ff.30ad2de9@aol.com> Beware Spoilers!!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . No, Steve is not ill. He's being very Dragonish. He's answering the question while not telling the questioner a damn thing. Very Niice Mr. Brust. In point of fact I believe that in Jhereg its stated that Dolivar, Kieron and Sethra started out as members of the same family. Thru Sethra's inaction Kieron was killed. Dolivar was cast out and founded The Jhereg; and forced Kieron to include the Jhereg in the empire.(this being one of the reasons why Kieron was whacked...) Dolivar became a Jhereg right down to his soul which was re-incarnated as an Easterner. So...No Sethra and Dolivar were not lovers. They might have been siblings.... Steve? Are you ill? That nearly seems a straight-forward answer. Hmm...Now I'm suspicious. :) Chris Steven Brust wrote On 11/16/05 15:18,: > No, Sethra and Dolivar were not lovers. > > Louis Eastman wrote: > >>Mr. Brust- >>Could you clarify if Sethra/Dolivar were lovers? If you didn't think of >>it but might use it now? Or you have no idea what I'm talking about, to >>quote a certain acquintance of yours whenever someone asks him about the >>forgotten god? > > In This World There Are No Friends, Nor Are There Enemies. In This World There Are Only Potential Opponents With Varying Degrees Of Skill. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 16 23:37:57 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 7:37:57 +0000 Subject: Dolivar Message-ID: <20051117073757.LGPS1233.aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> From: ReVibe68 at aol.com Date: 2005/11/17 Thu AM 12:50:49 GMT To: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM CC: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Dolivar Beware Spoilers!!!! . . . . . . . . . . . . . >In point of fact I believe that in Jhereg its stated that Dolivar, Kieron >and Sethra started out as members of the same family. >Thru Sethra's inaction Kieron was killed. IIRC, it was Dolivar, Keiron and Aliera who were family and Sethra was there. Cheers Mark ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Nov 17 10:35:22 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:35:22 -0800 Subject: More on the Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <20051116181739.74001.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b4501c5eba5$ab850580$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > There are 22 Major Arcana but only 17 houses in Brust's world so we > have a translation with 5 additional aspects of Dragaera to make up > the 22 total. But, being you all are the really BIG fans we thought > we ought to see how closely our Major Arcana comes to what some of > you might like to see. > So the objective is to create an earthly Tarot instead of a Dragaeran Tarot? Personally, I'd still expect a Drageran Tarot to have 17 trumps. As far as that goes, if the trumps were to be represented as the houses/themselves, as appears to be the suggestion, then the numerical order of the trumps should correspond to the numerical order of the Cycle. I'd also still want to know where the Tarot came from. Maybe this isn't so interesting if the goal is simply to represent an earthly Tarot with Dragaeran imagery. Anyway, here are my ideas on mapping the earthly Major Arcana to a Dragaeran Analog. It goes without saying that the artwork should feature the colors of the House associated with the card. The Fool House: Phoenix Card Concept: Decay/Rebirth Analog: Beginning/End of the Journey of the Fool, Beginning/End of the Cycle Poem: Phoenix sinks into decay/Phoenix rise from ashes grey Art: Name: The Magician House: Tiassa Card Concept: Curiosity/Cleverness/Trickery Analog: Loki, Coyote, and Monkey would all be Tiassa. Poem: Tiassa dreams and plots are born Art: Name: The Trickster The Papess House: Issola Card Concept: Courtesy, nurture, hidden wisdom, unseen danger Poem: Issola strikes from courtly bow Art: An Issola minstrel performs before an audience of mixed social standing; all clearly feel welcomed and comfortable. The tip of a rapier protrudes from under her cloak. (Yes, I'm aware it's an Eastern weapon.) Name: The Minstrel The Empress House: Chreotha Card Concept: Creation, fertility, beginnings Poem: Sly chreotha weaves his net Art: A Chreotha craftsman at work upon his latest creation Name: The Tradesman The Emperor House: Dragon Card Concept: Leadership, Authority, Command Poem: Haughty Dragon yearns to slay Art: A Dragon general on a hillock with sword drawn, prepared to lead his troops into battle. Name:The General The Pope: House: Lyorn Card Concept: Tradition, Social order, manners Poem: Lyorn growls and lowers horn Art: A Lyorn referee advises two duelists standing within a circle, while their seconds look on. Name: The Arbiter The Lovers: House: Jhegalla Card Concept: Change, choices, consequences Poem: Jhegalla shifts as moments pass Art: A Jhegalla merchant serves a peasant, an outlaw, and a noble; clearly getting the best of each of them while simultaenously moving goods from one to the other. Name: The Merchant The Chariot: House: Dzur Card Concept: Victory, force, perseverance against the odds, Duality. Analog: The opposite colored horses of the Chariot map readily onto the Monad. This duality of the Chariot is also the duality of House Dzur, which paradoxically produces some of it's most renowned Wizards as well as its most renowned Heroes. Poem: Dzur stalks and blends with night Art: A Dzur Hero charges joyously into outnumbered battle. Dzur Mountain is silohetted in the distance. Name: The Hero Strength: House: Tsalmoth Card Concept: Persistence, the power that comes from knowledge rather than brute strength. Poem: Tsalmoth maintains though none know how Art: A Tsalmoth noble makes obeisance to the Emperor. Name: The Courtier The Hermit: House: Athyra Card Concept: Wisdom, scholarship Poem: Athyra rules mind's interplay Art: An Athyra wizard studies in his solitary keep, surrounded by his tools and the wondrous fruits of his activities. Name: The Wizard Wheel of Fortune: House: None Card Concept: Reincarnation, cycles, luck, changes Poem: Everything old is new again Art: The Cycle as it appears in the Halls of Judgement Name: The Cycle Justice: House: Iorich Card Concept: balance, harmony, law, fair representation, imprisonment Poem: Quiet Iorich won't forget Art: An Iorich judge hands down his decision Name: The Judge The Hanged Man: House: None Card Concept: Sacrifice, knowledge or power gained thereby Poem: none Art: Sethra Lavode, enigma Name: The Enchantress Death: House: none Card Concept: Transformation, transition Poem: none Art: Deathsgate Falls Name: The Paths Of the Dead Temperance: House: Hawk Card Concept: Balance, moderation, challenges, learning Poem: Hawk looks down form lofty flight Art: A Hawklord meditates, in perfect balance with his surroundings Name: The Scientist The Devil: House: Jhereg Card Concept: Evil, deception, hidden desires Poem: Jhereg feeds on others' kills Art: A Jhereg hides, poised for his victim, though whether to entice him or attack him is unclear. Name: The Assassin The Tower: House: Vallista Card Concept: Destruction, revelation, rebirth Poem: Vallista rends and then rebuilds Art: A Vallista engineer tears down a castle Name: The Engineer The Star: House: Orca Card Concept: hope, revelation, discovery Analog: The mariner is the last true explorer in the Empire Poem: Orca circles, hard and lean Art: An Orca sailor smiles as he watches a single bright star pierce the limit of the Enclouding. Name: The Mariner The Moon: House: Yendi Card Concept: Secrets, illusions, hidden plots, subtlety Poem: Yendi coils and strikes unseen Art: A person of no discernable house whispers into the ear of an assassin with knife-drawn against his victim, while simultaneously singaling a passing Guardsman. Name: The Pretender The Sun: House: None Card Concept: Illumination, understanding, power Poem: None Art: The Imperial Orb Name: The Orb Judgement: House: None Card Concept: Reason, acceptance, fate Poem: None Art: The Halls of Judgement, Verra and Barlan featured prominently Name: The Halls of Judgement The World: House: Teckla Card Concept: Completion, fulfillment, success Poem: Frightened Teckla hides in grass Art: A happy Teckla family enjoys the fruits of a peaceful and succesful Empire. Name: The Farmer This isn't perfect by any means. House Jhegalla best fits Death thematically, but the direct analog between Death and The Paths of the Dead is so compelling that it made much more sense to put symbolism above theme. I'm sure that other readers would likewise re-arrange the Houses according to tastes different from mine. I never did manage to come up with a good name for the Dragaeran Fool, as it's difficult to find a word that embodies both death and rebirth better than the word Phoenix already does. From casey at the-bat.net Thu Nov 17 11:50:59 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:50:59 -0500 Subject: FW: More on the Tarot Deck Message-ID: <003501c5ebb0$3bdce170$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Scott Schultz outlined his ideas for the deck: > I'm sure that other readers would likewise re-arrange the Houses > according to tastes different from mine. I never did manage to > come up with a good name for the Dragaeran Fool, as it's difficult > to find a word that embodies both death and rebirth better than > the word Phoenix already does. I wouldn't quibble with any of your choices for the houses. I'd immediately thought that the Phoenix was the best analog for the Fool, and everything else that you laid out sounds good to me, untutored though I am in Tarot. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Nov 17 14:31:18 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:31:18 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck Message-ID: <32FCF42D.0657CF13.00048EA6@aol.com> "Rion Bergquist" writes: > what you all think would be in a Dragaeran Tarot deck. How do you play card games with major arcana? Textev: _Teckla_, prologue, mention of the card "Mountain of Changes". For minor arcana, we would want each House represented. Which means lots of suits, each with only a couple cards (all having the same number of cards (say 3) would make things easier). So we need a way to rank the suits; best would be cycle order, with whoever holds the Orb on top, and the previous House on bottom? (There's some textev (_Jhereg_ I think) about judging the current power of a House by how close they are to getting the Orb). So then we specify each card in each suit, for example, give each a ruler, craftsman, and peon. So Dragon suit would have Warlord, [Battle] Wizard, and Soldier; Jhereg could have Mob Boss, Sorceress, and Enforcer. (The Deck of Dragons in Steven Erikson's Malazan series is set up mostly like this (but it's only intended for use in fortune telling).) For major arcana, you'd want the major gods, so Barlen, Verra, Nyssa, Trout, Trignawhatever for pre-Interregnum decks, Necromancer for post-. You'll also want at least one of Cycle, Orb, and Emperor. Hmm, let's combine the latter two: Cycle is natural order, inverted represents amorphia; Emperor is artificial order. Have a Death card (showing Deathgate Falls), invert to represent reincarnation. That's eight, so we need 9 more... toss in the rest of the gods I'm forgetting, plus cards for Jenoine, Serioli, and Easterners. Oh, and that mountain card actually mentioned in the books (probably represents Sethra). -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 17 15:09:54 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: dzur on amazon Message-ID: <20051117230954.8227826C83@boredom.ennui.org> Not sure if this already hit the list, but Dzur already exists on Amazon to some extent. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 17 16:47:32 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:47:32 -0700 Subject: Concerning the gods In-Reply-To: <29BB322820956B4AA245B37C44C3358901389DEE@ex2k3.ad.cusys.edu> References: <29BB322820956B4AA245B37C44C3358901389DEE@ex2k3.ad.cusys.edu> Message-ID: <437D24A4.1050708@brazee.net> > > >>Or perhaps the presence of all that raw Amorphia right nearby causes a > > >weakness in whatever it is that keeps her from appearing on Dragaera? The difference between gods and demons seems to be in the minds of the gods. Sort of like the difference between serfs and slaves. From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 17 16:48:16 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:48:16 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck Message-ID: <437D24D0.9050805@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >>>>What does the Dragaeran Tarot represent? In the real world, Tarot >> >> operates >>>>on several levels. At the highest level, it's a symbolic guidebook of >> >> the >>>>stages of life and enlightenment and a kind of philosophical teaching >> >> aide. >>>>At the middle level it's a semi-magical apparatus full of arcane >> >> symbology >>>>(how much depends on the agenda of the publisher of any particular >> >> deck) >>>>which lends itself to divination of various sorts. At the lowest >> >> level, it's >>>>simply a fancy deck of playing cards. It's rather amusing to look >> >> through a >>>>modern Tarrochi deck because the cards are duplicated vertically in >> >> the same >>>>fashion as a deck of standard playing cards. The Hanged Man, for >> >> instance, >>>>becomes nothing more than two pairs of disembodied legs joined at the >> >> waist. >>>> >>>> >> >> That's funny. The trouble with comparing arcana of our world with that of Brust's universe is that ours evolved from various religions and religious-type beliefs. We have no way of checking to see if one fantasy works and another doesn't - so we end up with a mismatch. In a world where divine beings can actually be called with measurable responses, such confusion messes things up. One god will not want to be confused with his enemy god. Rules that don't work - can have bigger consequences than losing paying customers. >>>>I guess the biggest question to answer is whether this is to be truly >> >> a >>>>"Dragarean Tarot" or if it's simply a standard Tarot illustrated with >>>>Dragaeran imagery. The latter would be easier to create, while the >> >> former >>>>would be of more interest though to a possibly narrower audience. >> >> (There are >>>>plenty of people who collect "standard" Tarot decks who might be >> >> interested >>>>in a Dragaeran Tarot.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> I would expect people who believe in Tarot to be unwilling to accept a completely alien mythos. But I suspect that most of us who attend SF conventions are like those characters in _Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats_, we separate out our fantasy out from the world. I have to admit I have zero patience with people who believe in Tarot and astrology in our world. There's really no reason that Dragaeran Tarot has major and minor arcana, Fools, hanged men or any of the things that have evolved into current Tarot. (How long have our current Tarot been stable anyway - if nothing else, time will change things). But those might be selling points for people who collect such. Still, it might be more interesting to come up with a completely new deck with new rules that matched Dragaeran reality. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Fri Nov 18 00:03:55 2005 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 03:03:55 EST Subject: Dolivar Message-ID: <25a.1781c68.30aee4eb@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/2005 2:38:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mtiller at ntlworld.com writes: In point of fact I believe that in Jhereg its stated that Dolivar, Kieron >and Sethra started out as members of the same family. >Thru Sethra's inaction Kieron was killed. IIRC, it was Dolivar, Keiron and Aliera who were family and Sethra was there. Cheers Absolutely Correct. Thanks for the info. In This World There Are No Friends, Nor Are There Enemies. In This World Th ere Are Only Potential Opponents With Varying Degrees Of Skill. From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 01:31:21 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 04:31:21 -0500 Subject: Dolivar In-Reply-To: <437BBE3A.6060907@dreamcafe.com> References: <437BBE3A.6060907@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: I'm scared. On 11/16/05, Steven Brust wrote: > > No, Sethra and Dolivar were not lovers. > > Louis Eastman wrote: > > Mr. Brust- > > Could you clarify if Sethra/Dolivar were lovers? If you didn't think of > > it but might use it now? Or you have no idea what I'm talking about, to > > quote a certain acquintance of yours whenever someone asks him about the > > forgotten god? > > From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Nov 18 08:16:03 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:16:03 -0800 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <437D24D0.9050805@brazee.net> Message-ID: <8cd101c5ec5b$62a05160$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I would expect people who believe in Tarot to be unwilling to > accept a > completely alien mythos. I think a Dragaeran Tarot would mostly be limited to Brust fans as the audience. Still, if you wander into your local new age store, you'll find a fairly wide selection of Tarot variants, many of which are barely recognizable as Tarot cards. I think that most of the people who produced things like Native American Tarot a couple of decades ago have gone on to just create their own new kinds of divination/meditation decks these days instead. The trick with marketing a Tarot deck is not so much that it have a clearly understood background (mystery is desirable in these things) but that it have images that resonate with recognizable emotional states and that it have an instruction booklet that pulls the reader into the milieu used by the deck so that she become receptive to its symbology and feels some sort of intuitive boost from "interpreting" it. > > There's really no reason that Dragaeran Tarot has major and minor > arcana, Fools, hanged men or any of the things that have evolved into > current Tarot. (How long have our current Tarot been stable > anyway - > if nothing else, time will change things). But those might > be selling points for people who collect such. > > Still, it might be more interesting to come up with a completely new > deck with new rules that matched Dragaeran reality. I'd agree with this. I'd find a "real" Dragaeran Tarot that "feels" like it came from the Empire more interesting than a re-formatted earthly Tarot. The one justification for going with the earthly Tarot (marketing considerations aside) is that Tarot may, in fact, be imported from the East. The real Tarot has been rather surprisingly resilient in the face of hundreds of years of use. There are individual variants by noted paranormalists (The Crowley Deck being one of the more famous ones) but by and large the cards and the cocepts behind them are pretty well-grounded in tradition. The artwork is primarily what changes, with the symbols on the cards changing to fit the beliefs of whoever has published the deck. There are exceptions like the Morgan Tarot (The Magician is represented by the phrase "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards. They are subtle and quick to anger." You can get a computerized "reading" at http://www.sleepbot.com/morgan/request.html) and the "special interest" variants but the core of Tarot today is mostly just what it was four hundred years ago. Rather like I-Ching, the evolution has mainly come from the hundreds of years of commentaries rather than from any major change in the mechanics of it. Dragaerans have been shown to have no compunction about borrowing features from other cultures. I'd have no problem believing that the original Hungarian colonists brought Tarot with them and that it survived reasonably intact into the "present day", though with changes to the art that reflect the culture of the Empire rather than the East. From lydy at demesne.com Fri Nov 18 11:03:23 2005 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:03:23 -0600 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <8cd101c5ec5b$62a05160$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <8cd101c5ec5b$62a05160$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <437E257B.9070709@demesne.com> Scott Schultz wrote: > > I would expect people who believe in Tarot to be unwilling to > > accept a completely alien mythos. I think that the largest market for the modern Tarot, though, are people who collect them as a curiosity. People who use them to read tend to use the same deck for as long as possible, because the cards become more sensitized to their vibrations. Or, if you will, they know what they like because they like what they know. If they do replace a deck, they will almost invariably replace it with the same deck. Someone who reads with a Rider-Waite will buy another Rider-Waite, and they're likely to choose the same artist, as well. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who buy many multiple decks because they like the artwork. Whether or not this deck would appeal to those collectors, I don't know, but that's your target market, not those who are serious about the Tarot. > > I'd agree with this. I'd find a "real" Dragaeran Tarot that "feels" > like it came from the Empire more interesting than a re-formatted > earthly Tarot. The one justification for going with the earthly Tarot > (marketing considerations aside) is that Tarot may, in fact, be > imported from the East. If I were king-- If I were designing the deck, I would keep in mind that 17s are deeply encoded in Dragaerans -- possibly genetically so. Because of this, I would be shocked to see a Dragaeran Tarot with any more or less than 17 Major Arcana. The numbers which resonate with our culture are twos, threes, fours (two twos), and by extension, sevens (three plus four, with the bonus of being a prime), and twelves (divisible by two, three, and four). These aren't as important to Dragaerans, and not in the same way. We don't have much information about Dragaeran numerology, but seventeen must be at its base. Again, if I were designing the Dragaeran Tarot, I would not recreate the human deck. I would be more tempted by three suits of seventeen cards each, a total of 51. For suits, I'd use the human suits, but drop the cups. Dragaeran emotional relationships seem to me to be closer to wands than cups, whereas money and power are certainly strong parts of the Dragaeran character. On the other hand, three isn't a very Dragaeran number. How to hang that onto the Dragaeran mythos baffles me. I expect that the human -- Easterner -- Tarot looks like ours. After all, one of the origin myths for the Tarot is that it came from the Gypsies. That sorcerers adapted it to their own purposes is not surprising. The big problem with a sorcerer's Tarot, though, is that sorcery doesn't rely on contagion and congruence. It doesn't use much in the way of symbology. The most powerful set of symbols are the houses. I wonder...Perhaps the order of the cards in the Arcana are in the order of the current state of the cycle. The Emperor would be the current Emperor, and then the cards would descend from there in their order in the cycle. Each time the cycle turns, you'd need to change your Tarot, but really, that's a very Dragaeran sort of thing to do, don't you think? Is there any way to force the minor Arcana into a representation of the Great Cycle -- I'm not thinking of a good way to do it, the number three doesn't work. > Dragaerans have been shown to have no compunction about borrowing > features from other cultures. I'd have no problem believing that the > original Hungarian colonists brought Tarot with them and that it > survived reasonably intact into the "present day", though with > changes to the art that reflect the culture of the Empire rather than > the East. I agree, obviously. However, I really don't see how the Dragaeran Tarot could exist without seventeens. By the way, how many gods do we know about? I'm thinking it's way less than seventeen, unfortunately. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Nov 18 11:20:07 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:20:07 -0800 Subject: New Dramatis Personae page Message-ID: <437E2967.6040601@comcast.net> Normally I wouldn't hype the Wikicity like this, but I've just finished work on a new page, I thought many of you might like to know about. It's an updated version of the Dramatis Personae page that Jake Kesinger put together many years ago. (Though not quite as thorough as his was, it is, at least, a bit more up to date). You can visit it at: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Personae Feel free to bookmark it, I know I will. Majikjon From JediJane at ev1.net Sun Nov 20 07:59:07 2005 From: JediJane at ev1.net (M. Goepp) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:59:07 -0600 Subject: Uttrik References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net><4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net><4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0511151455k6fb13a32kda0c1192f4b32c74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801c5edeb$5703ee20$6701a8c0@Earthlink.net> >>> On 11/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: >>> Too bad Paarfi doesn't subscribe to the mailing list, or we could >>> just ask him. >>> On 11/13/05, Philip Hart wrote: >> Who knows? Maybe Paarfi's subscribed under a different name. Who's >> the most long-winded poster here? Who's the purest pro-Paarfi >> poster? Who's the most pro-Sethra poster? >Maximilian Wilson wrote: > I nominate Mr. Mark A. Mandel. > > Max Wilson But isn't Mark already Mario? Oh, *that* makes my head hurt! ~M From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 11:34:52 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:34:52 -0700 Subject: Uttrik In-Reply-To: <007801c5edeb$5703ee20$6701a8c0@Earthlink.net> References: <4377B6FA.3030802@comcast.net> <4377E55A.1030508@comcast.net> <4377FED1.9030502@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0511151455k6fb13a32kda0c1192f4b32c74@mail.gmail.com> <007801c5edeb$5703ee20$6701a8c0@Earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511201134m37377da5m5c1c49c759e96962@mail.gmail.com> On 11/20/05, M. Goepp wrote: > But isn't Mark already Mario? Oh, *that* makes my head hurt! Mark is Mario? I dunno; I *am* pretty certain he's Devera's father. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Nov 20 14:38:56 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:38:56 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: New Dramatis Personae page] Message-ID: <4380FB00.7060006@comcast.net> FWD to List -------------- next part -------------- From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 19:35:36 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:35:36 -0700 Subject: New Dramatis Personae page In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511181718y4406b239r8223b94fe36ac35d@mail.gmail.com> References: <437E2967.6040601@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0511181718y4406b239r8223b94fe36ac35d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511201935hdeb7810g604caf87391e049e@mail.gmail.com> FWD to list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Maximilian Wilson Date: Nov 18, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: Re: New Dramatis Personae page To: Jon Lincicum The Dramatis Personae page, on Lady Teldra: "She was described as being beautiful and slender, with light brown hair and green eyes (typical for an Issola). Also typically for her house, she was a born and trained diplomatist, a master of many protocols and languages (including the language of the Jenoine), and almost impossible not to like." I know this is true of Teldra, but is it true of Issola in general? The only other Issola we have aren't really (Illista and her brother, posing as Issola) but they don't seem to have Teldra's personal charm. Of course, we might also be dealing with a biased narrator (Vlad). We really don't know if Teldra's magic was as universally effective (esp. on Dragaerans) as he thinks it is/was. Vlad's a little bit... love-starved isn't the right word, but--we already know he's a lot fonder of people than he likes to admit. ("For an assassin, Vlad, you're a real sweetheart.) He may have been uniquely predisposed to like Teldra in a way that Morrolan--who doesn't appear to have strong personal ties to anyone in his foster family, or even any of the villagers of Blackchapel among whom he lived for several generations without even noticing that he wasn't human--was not. Max Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Nov 20 19:59:46 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:59:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Dramatis Personae page In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511201935hdeb7810g604caf87391e049e@mail.gmail.com> References: <437E2967.6040601@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0511181718y4406b239r8223b94fe36ac35d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0511201935hdeb7810g604caf87391e049e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > I know this is true of Teldra, but is it true of Issola in general? > The only other Issola we have aren't really (Illista and her brother, > posing as Issola) See _Athyra_. Charm to burn, apparently. Also, briefly, _Orca_. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 16 09:37:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:37:27 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <601f01c5ead0$75f1df90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <601f01c5ead0$75f1df90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <437B6E57.1000407@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >What does the Dragaeran Tarot represent? In the real world, Tarot operates >on several levels. At the highest level, it's a symbolic guidebook of the >stages of life and enlightenment and a kind of philosophical teaching aide. >At the middle level it's a semi-magical apparatus full of arcane symbology >(how much depends on the agenda of the publisher of any particular deck) >which lends itself to divination of various sorts. At the lowest level, it's >simply a fancy deck of playing cards. It's rather amusing to look through a >modern Tarrochi deck because the cards are duplicated vertically in the same >fashion as a deck of standard playing cards. The Hanged Man, for instance, >becomes nothing more than two pairs of disembodied legs joined at the waist. > > That's funny. The trouble with comparing arcana of our world with that of Brust's universe is that ours evolved from various religions and religious-type beliefs. We have no way of checking to see if one fantasy works and another doesn't - so we end up with a mismatch. In a world where divine beings can actually be called with measurable responses, such confusion messes things up. One god will not want to be confused with his enemy god. Rules that don't work - can have bigger consequences than losing paying customers. >I guess the biggest question to answer is whether this is to be truly a >"Dragarean Tarot" or if it's simply a standard Tarot illustrated with >Dragaeran imagery. The latter would be easier to create, while the former >would be of more interest though to a possibly narrower audience. (There are >plenty of people who collect "standard" Tarot decks who might be interested >in a Dragaeran Tarot.) > > > I would expect people who believe in Tarot to be unwilling to accept a completely alien mythos. But I suspect that most of us who attend SF conventions are like those characters in _Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats_, we separate out our fantasy out from the world. I have to admit I have zero patience with people who believe in Tarot and astrology in our world. There's really no reason that Dragaeran Tarot has major and minor arcana, Fools, hanged men or any of the things that have evolved into current Tarot. (How long have our current Tarot been stable anyway - if nothing else, time will change things). But those might be selling points for people who collect such. Still, it might be more interesting to come up with a completely new deck with new rules that matched Dragaeran reality. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 09:18:31 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:18:31 -0800 Subject: New Dramatis Personae page In-Reply-To: References: <437E2967.6040601@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0511181718y4406b239r8223b94fe36ac35d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0511201935hdeb7810g604caf87391e049e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/20/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > I know this is true of Teldra, but is it true of Issola in general? > > The only other Issola we have aren't really (Illista and her brother, > > posing as Issola) > > See _Athyra_. Charm to burn, apparently. Also, briefly, _Orca_. (expanding out the names for the non-memorious): Sara, in /Athyra/ and Hub, in /Orca/. Also, Lewchin, in /Paths of the Dead/. There are other Issola, here and there, I think. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 21 09:41:01 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:41:01 -0800 Subject: New Dramatis Personae page Message-ID: Indus, the Minister of the Houses in Orca (who we learn about but never meet), Lewchin in PotD, Teldra (in Issola, et al.), Sara (in Athyra), Wensil, the proprieter of the Silver Shadow (FHYA). These are the only ones I've been able to track down. (Other than vague historical references to Emperors and such.) Majikjon >On 11/20/05, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >> >> > I know this is true of Teldra, but is it true of Issola in general? >> > The only other Issola we have aren't really (Illista and her brother, >> > posing as Issola) >> >> See _Athyra_. Charm to burn, apparently. Also, briefly, _Orca_. > >(expanding out the names for the non-memorious): > > Sara, in /Athyra/ and Hub, in /Orca/. > >Also, Lewchin, in /Paths of the Dead/. > >There are other Issola, here and there, I think. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051121/5b92ad24/attachment.htm From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Nov 21 09:51:29 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:51:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Dramatis Personae page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Indus, the Minister of the Houses in Orca (who we learn about but never > meet), Who is noted to be very persuasive. > Lewchin in PotD, Who left no impression on me. > Sara (in Athyra), There's also an important mention of her in _Orca_. Vlad tells Savn he wouldn't mind going back and hooking up with her. Or something like that. Incidentally, I believe some here frown on top-posting. From carpovita at earthlink.net Mon Nov 21 10:47:46 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:47:46 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck In-Reply-To: <437B6E57.1000407@brazee.net> Message-ID: <003c01c5eecc$11504720$0200a8c0@Carpovita> but that would have VERY limited appeal whereas a "standard" tarot deck that had been "brustified" might well serve as a gateway for more exposure for Steve... and we already know that Dragaera and Earth have direct ties so... -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:37 AM To: 'Dragaera (E-mail)' Subject: Re: Dragaeran Projects - Dragaeran Tarot Deck Scott Schultz wrote: >What does the Dragaeran Tarot represent? In the real world, Tarot operates >on several levels. At the highest level, it's a symbolic guidebook of the >stages of life and enlightenment and a kind of philosophical teaching aide. >At the middle level it's a semi-magical apparatus full of arcane symbology >(how much depends on the agenda of the publisher of any particular deck) >which lends itself to divination of various sorts. At the lowest level, it's >simply a fancy deck of playing cards. It's rather amusing to look through a >modern Tarrochi deck because the cards are duplicated vertically in the same >fashion as a deck of standard playing cards. The Hanged Man, for instance, >becomes nothing more than two pairs of disembodied legs joined at the waist. > > That's funny. The trouble with comparing arcana of our world with that of Brust's universe is that ours evolved from various religions and religious-type beliefs. We have no way of checking to see if one fantasy works and another doesn't - so we end up with a mismatch. In a world where divine beings can actually be called with measurable responses, such confusion messes things up. One god will not want to be confused with his enemy god. Rules that don't work - can have bigger consequences than losing paying customers. >I guess the biggest question to answer is whether this is to be truly a >"Dragarean Tarot" or if it's simply a standard Tarot illustrated with >Dragaeran imagery. The latter would be easier to create, while the former >would be of more interest though to a possibly narrower audience. (There are >plenty of people who collect "standard" Tarot decks who might be interested >in a Dragaeran Tarot.) > > > I would expect people who believe in Tarot to be unwilling to accept a completely alien mythos. But I suspect that most of us who attend SF conventions are like those characters in _Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats_, we separate out our fantasy out from the world. I have to admit I have zero patience with people who believe in Tarot and astrology in our world. There's really no reason that Dragaeran Tarot has major and minor arcana, Fools, hanged men or any of the things that have evolved into current Tarot. (How long have our current Tarot been stable anyway - if nothing else, time will change things). But those might be selling points for people who collect such. Still, it might be more interesting to come up with a completely new deck with new rules that matched Dragaeran reality. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Nov 21 11:04:08 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: new Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability Message-ID: <20051121190408.4509.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My department's IT chief just forwarded this message to everyone from the University's Information Security Office. I don't have time to write a filk about it. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://filk.cracksandshards.com/ Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] \\\\\ Hi all, It appears that an advisory has been released about an unpatched Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability which allows the execution of code by simply visiting a malicious website. At the same time they released proof-of-concept code which has been verified by SANS to work as advertised. http://isc.sans.org/diary.php?storyid=874 Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability which allows the execution of code by simply visiting a malicious website. At the same time they released proof-of-concept code which has been verified by SANS to work as advertised. http://isc.sans.org/diary.php?storyid=874 This vulnerability exists in how IE handles the JavaScript 'Window()' function and an 'onload' statement. The proof-of-concept code will open up calc.exe which verifies that code can be run on the system via exploitation. A malicious website could possibly compromise the system and install malware and take complete control of the system. This vulnerability was first reported as a Denial of Service back in May of this year and supposedly Microsoft ignored the report. Today the discoverer reclassified this vulnerability from a Denial of Service to a Remote Code Execution. There is no official word from Microsoft yet and a patch doesn't exist. Workarounds: Use another web browser such as Firefox, Netscape or Opera If you have to use IE disable 'active scripting' for non-trusted sites or disable JavaScript. Since there is not a patch available please take extra caution when visiting websites when using Internet Explorer. References FrSirt advisory http://www.frsirt.com/english/advisories/2005/2509 FrSirt Proof of Concept code http://www.frsirt.com/exploits/20051121.IEWindow0day.php Original Advisory http://www.computerterrorism.com/research/ie/ct21-11-2005 ================================================== David Taylor //Sr. Information Security Specialist University of Pennsylvania Information Security Philadelphia PA USA http://www.upenn.edu/computing/security/ ================================================== SANS - The Twenty Most Critical Internet Security Vulnerabilities http://www.sans.org/top20/ SANS - Internet Storm Center http://isc.sans.org irc.freenode.net #dshielders http://freenode.net/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 21 11:11:13 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:11:13 -0800 Subject: new Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability Message-ID: >My department's IT chief just forwarded this message to everyone from the >University's Information Security Office. I don't have time to write a >filk about it. > >-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://filk.cracksandshards.com/ > Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > >\\\\\ > > >Hi all, > >It appears that an advisory has been released about an unpatched >Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability which allows the execution of >code by simply visiting a malicious website. > Talk about cracks in the Orb... Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 11:28:02 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:28:02 -0700 Subject: new Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability References: <20051121190408.4509.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" To: "Dragaera list" Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: new Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability > My department's IT chief just forwarded this message to everyone from the > University's Information Security Office. I don't have time to write a > filk about it. > > -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://filk.cracksandshards.com/ > Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > > > > \\\\\ > > > Hi all, > > It appears that an advisory has been released about an unpatched > Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability which allows the execution of > code by simply visiting a malicious website. At the same time they > released proof-of-concept code which has been verified by SANS to work as > advertised. snip > Workarounds: > > Use another web browser such as Firefox, Netscape or Opera If you have to > use IE disable 'active scripting' for non-trusted sites or disable > JavaScript. Heh, I don't even use IE at work. Firefox is much mo' better. From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 21 11:38:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:38:51 -0700 Subject: new Microsoft Internet Explorer vulnerability In-Reply-To: <20051121190408.4509.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051121190408.4509.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4382224B.4070509@brazee.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >My department's IT chief just forwarded this message to everyone from the >University's Information Security Office. I don't have time to write a >filk about it. > > > Please don't. I don't wish to filter you out. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 12:54:31 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:54:31 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: A minor point of usage, perhaps, but which House name, if any, ought to be pluralized with an "s", and which are acceptably their own plural? There is sometimes inconsistency in the books, which is hardly surprising, but I seem to be recalling quite a few instances of unmodified plural House names. Perhaps from the one example of "teckla", there is generalizing for all of those many House names that end in "a", and by extension, quite a few of the others that don't end in "a". So I wonder, which one sounds better? Which is more canonical? "Two Phoenixes" or "Two Phoenix"? "Two Dragons" or "Two Dragon"? "Two Lyorns" or "Two Lyorn"? "Two Tiassas" or "Two Tiassa"? "Two Hawks" or "Two Hawk"? "Two Dzurs" or "Two Dzur"? "Two Issolas" or "Two Issola"? "Two Tsalmoths" or "Two Tsalmoth"? "Two Vallistas" or "Two Vallista"? "Two Jheregs" or "Two Jhereg"? "Two Ioriches" or "Two Iorich"? "Two Chreothas" or "Two Chreotha"? "Two Yendis" or "Two Yendi"? "Two Orcas" or "Two Orca"? "Two Tecklas" or "Two Teckla"? "Two Jhegaalas" or "Two Jhegaala"? "Two Athyras" or "Two Athyra"? I find that I personally am more comfortable with not modifying any, except perhaps "Dragons" and "Hawks". And I /think/ that's what SKZB has been writing, for the most part. Perhaps our more learned philologists and linguists could comment. From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Nov 21 17:16:26 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:16:26 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: <4AF1747F.4C541DFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Davdi Silverrock writes: > So I wonder, which one sounds better? Which is more canonical? Someone less lazy than I should look these up in the book search. Here's what sounds right to me: > "Two Phoenixes" > "Two Dragons" > "Two Lyorns" > "Two Tiassa" > "Two Hawks" > "Two Dzurs" > "Two Issolas" > "Two Tsalmoths" > "Two Vallistas" > "Two Jhereg" > "Two Iorich" > "Two Chreothas" > "Two Yendi" > "Two Orcas" > "Two Teckla" > "Two Jhegaalas" > "Two Athyra" That was harder than expected; we're so used to seeing the terms used as adjectives or references to the whole House. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Mon Nov 21 19:34:27 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:34:27 EST Subject: Steve Brust, Author Guest of Honor at Loscon Convention Nov. 25-27, 2005 Message-ID: <25c.1e64861.30b3ebc3@aol.com> Hi, Steve Brust will be the Author Guest of Honor at Loscon. See his live journal of November 20th, 2005 http://www.livejournal.com/users/skzbrust/ http://loscon.org Friday, Nov. 25, 2005 to Sunday, Nov. 27, 2005. LAX Marriott, Los Angeles, CA Bye. Linda G. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 22 19:17:44 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:17:44 -0700 Subject: Tarot cards Message-ID: <4383DF58.2040804@brazee.net> One thing - When we look at a Dragaera Tarot deck should also find characters from _Gypsy_. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 23 04:50:22 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:50:22 -0700 Subject: Tarot cards In-Reply-To: <4383DF58.2040804@brazee.net> References: <4383DF58.2040804@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4384658E.6010002@brazee.net> Howard Brazee wrote: I mean _The Gypsy_. >One thing - When we look at a Dragaera Tarot deck should also find >characters from _Gypsy_. > > > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 23 06:06:57 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:06:57 -0800 Subject: Tarot cards Message-ID: I just wanted to wish Steven Karl Zoltan Brust a very happy and rejoiceful 50th birthday today. Steve, I know you're on the road in California, so you might not get this right away, but I wanted to make sure someone said it. Majikjon From steve at romlin.com Wed Nov 23 10:24:52 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:24:52 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday Steve Message-ID: Well I'll chime in on that one! Happy Birthday Steve. And while you get back to your email, I'll ask Jon where he got "rejoiceful". Heck, I may even second his coinage of a new word. -- \Steve From pulmon at mac.com Wed Nov 23 10:56:27 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:56:27 -0500 Subject: Speculation on Dzur Message-ID: <69FB1B3B-B034-4C6A-B4C5-A1E836A2D342@mac.com> Have I missed the speculation on this book? Dare I imagine that our auteur will seek to bring a few plot lines together by starring....Ibronka! This can tie up Piro and Khaavren as well. Or has my speculation, like the German tourist who traveled from the spa to the sausage factory, merely gone from Bad to wurst? Ken From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 11:08:45 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:08:45 -0700 Subject: Speculation on Dzur In-Reply-To: <69FB1B3B-B034-4C6A-B4C5-A1E836A2D342@mac.com> References: <69FB1B3B-B034-4C6A-B4C5-A1E836A2D342@mac.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0511231108m1bdba7edoc794699383db4758@mail.gmail.com> On 11/23/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > Have I missed the speculation on this book? Dare I imagine that our > auteur will seek to bring a few plot lines together by > starring....Ibronka! This can tie up Piro and Khaavren as well. I dunno. Someone posted a while ago that he/she believed that Steve started out thinking Vlad was going to out-wily his outstanding foes in this book, and then at some point discovered that Vlad was just going to take them head-on a la Hersh in /Teckla/ or Tortalini in /Phoenix/. Hence Steve said of the book, "It seems, however, that instead of being TIASSA, it has decided that it wants to be DZUR." It seems to me to be a good guess. Here's some speculation on this thread: http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2005q3/000253.html Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 22:11:47 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:11:47 -0800 Subject: Question for Steve, about an e'Baritt Message-ID: I'll add my "Happy Birthday" as well; why not? But here's the question: In /Sethra Lavode/ (and the other books of /Viscount/), the /Dramatis Personae/ lists one Karla e'Baritt. However, this person does not appear anywhere in the text, instead, there is named a *Kiraamoni* e'Baritt, who is, as described by the text, a military engineer. While, generally speaking, the text has been favored over the front matter when there is a conflict, I just thought I'd check: Is it in fact the case that the name "Karla" a typo? From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Nov 24 10:33:33 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 12:33:33 -0600 Subject: Athyra Message-ID: <4386077D.9070301@comcast.net> So I'm re-reading Athyra, which will probably lead to re-reading Orca . . . Anyway, there's a linen cloth at Yarn's; too expensive for Savn's family to buy. Yarn-dyed, white and red stripes crossing sharply on a dark green ground. Tartan! The things you notice the fifth and sixth time through. Happy Thanksgiving, y'all! From rone at ennui.org Sat Nov 26 20:18:54 2005 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:18:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: nothing better to do Message-ID: <20051127041854.C543826C80@boredom.ennui.org> 60 seconds/minute * 60 minutes/hour * 24 hours/day == 86400 seconds 51 seconds/minute * 51 minutes/hour * 34 hours/day == 88434 seconds I know the day is only 30 hours, but i'm just playing with 17. Has there been mention of any Teckla who is a member of House Jhereg? rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Nov 27 10:26:19 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:26:19 -0500 Subject: nothing better to do Message-ID: <55BF2B65.37BC1522.00048EA6@aol.com> rone at ennui.org (rone) writes: > 60 seconds/minute * 60 minutes/hour * 24 hours/day == 86400 seconds > 51 seconds/minute * 51 minutes/hour * 34 hours/day == 88434 seconds > > I know the day is only 30 hours, but i'm just playing with 17. 24 hr/day * 365.25 day/yr == 8766 hr/yr 30 hr/day * 17 day/mon * 17 mon/yr == 8670 hr/yr More details plus textev: http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 28 11:49:36 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:49:36 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock writes: >> So I wonder, which one sounds better? Which is more canonical? > >Someone less lazy than I should look these up in the book search. > >Here's what sounds right to me: > >> "Two Phoenixes" >> "Two Dragons" >> "Two Lyorns" >> "Two Tiassa" >> "Two Hawks" >> "Two Dzurs" >> "Two Issolas" >> "Two Tsalmoths" >> "Two Vallistas" >> "Two Jhereg" >> "Two Iorich" >> "Two Chreothas" >> "Two Yendi" >> "Two Orcas" >> "Two Teckla" >> "Two Jhegaalas" >> "Two Athyra" > >That was harder than expected; we're so used to seeing the terms >used as adjectives or references to the whole House. I personally don't think as "s" should be used on anything other than Dragon(s), Hawk(s) and possibly Phoenix(es). The others just "sound better" being their own plurals, IMO. >From what I recall, Steve avoids having to pluralize the house names most of the time by the expedient of referring to folks as "Dragonlords" or "Hawklords" rather than as "Dragons" or "Hawks". Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 28 12:22:59 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:22:59 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438B6723.20904@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >I personally don't think as "s" should be used on anything other than >Dragon(s), Hawk(s) and possibly Phoenix(es). > >The others just "sound better" being their own plurals, IMO. > >>From what I recall, Steve avoids having to pluralize the house names most >of the time by the expedient of referring to folks as "Dragonlords" or >"Hawklords" rather than as "Dragons" or "Hawks". > > We already have a tradition of having words like hanged and hung. I'm pretty sure we have similar words which are declined differently when talking about people belonging to a state, but am not thinking of them. We are used to the words dragons and hawks. Which is all the more reason to not have Dragons and Hawks. Now in English we have different traditions about team names. Is "The Broncos" one team or a collection of football players? Or teams without plural names: The Jazz The Heat The Avalanche The White Sox The Red Sox The Dallas Stars refer to a Lone star. They used to be the North Stars which is also a single star. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Nov 28 13:02:45 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:02:45 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >>I personally don't think as "s" should be used on anything other than >>Dragon(s), Hawk(s) and possibly Phoenix(es). >> >>The others just "sound better" being their own plurals, IMO. >> >>From what I recall, Steve avoids having to pluralize the house names most >>of the time by the expedient of referring to folks as "Dragonlords" or >>"Hawklords" rather than as "Dragons" or "Hawks". >> >> >We already have a tradition of having words like hanged and hung. I'm >pretty sure we have similar words which are declined differently when >talking about people belonging to a state, but am not thinking of them. > >We are used to the words dragons and hawks. Which is all the more >reason to not have Dragons and Hawks. > >Now in English we have different traditions about team names. Is "The >Broncos" one team or a collection of football players? Or teams >without plural names: >The Jazz >The Heat >The Avalanche >The White Sox >The Red Sox > >The Dallas Stars refer to a Lone star. They used to be the North Stars >which is also a single star. Don't get me started. Most sports writers can't apply the plurality rules of team names consistently enough to save their lives. However, some animals on earth have their own name as a plural (i.e Moose, Fish, Orca) and since the house names are all based on animal names, self-pluralizing makes as much sense as any other approach. Majikjon From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Nov 28 14:15:34 2005 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:15:34 -0800 Subject: Question for Steve, about an e'Baritt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438B8186.40703@dreamcafe.com> Not exactly a typo; Karla is a diminutive. I didn't realize that I never used that form of he name in the text. Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I'll add my "Happy Birthday" as well; why not? > >But here's the question: In /Sethra Lavode/ (and the other books of >/Viscount/), the /Dramatis Personae/ lists one Karla e'Baritt. >However, this person does not appear anywhere in the text, instead, >there is named a *Kiraamoni* e'Baritt, who is, as described by the >text, a military engineer. > >While, generally speaking, the text has been favored over the front >matter when there is a conflict, I just thought I'd check: Is it in >fact the case that the name "Karla" a typo? > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 29 06:29:43 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 06:29:43 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: >>On 11/28/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>However, some animals on earth have their own name as a plural (i.e Moose, >>Fish, Orca) and since the house names are all based on animal names, >>self-pluralizing makes as much sense as any other approach. > >Just for the record, I don't believe that's true of Orca. All the sources I can find in the OED (including national geographic) refer to "orcas" or "orca whales". You may be right, I didn't bother to look that one up. Here are some more examples from our world: bison, deer, sheep, swine However, I don't think I've ever read many of the animal names on Dragaera with a "s" at the end. It's norska, darr, kethna, not norskas, darrs, kethnas. Or how about Virt e'Terics talking to Vlad about the conscript troops in the other companies? I believe her quote was "They're Teckla". They. Meaning more than one. Followed by Teckla sans "s". I nearly think this nails down the plural form of Teckla at the very least. Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Tue Nov 29 08:16:14 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:16:14 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78178A8A-D10D-41E9-A28E-846F5144F117@mac.com> On Nov 29, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>> On 11/28/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >>> wrote: >>> However, some animals on earth have their own name as a plural (i.e > Moose, >>> Fish, Orca) and since the house names are all based on animal names, >>> self-pluralizing makes as much sense as any other approach. >> >> Just for the record, I don't believe that's true of Orca. All the >> sources > I can find in the OED (including national geographic) refer to > "orcas" or > "orca whales". > > You may be right, I didn't bother to look that one up. > > Here are some more examples from our world: > > bison, deer, sheep, swine > > However, I don't think I've ever read many of the animal names on > Dragaera > with a "s" at the end. It's norska, darr, kethna, not norskas, darrs, > kethnas. > > Or how about Virt e'Terics talking to Vlad about the conscript > troops in > the other companies? I believe her quote was "They're Teckla". > > They. Meaning more than one. Followed by Teckla sans "s". > > I nearly think this nails down the plural form of Teckla at the very > least. > > Majikjon > > Unless, of course, the author mis-heard Tecklae... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Nov 29 08:28:09 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:28:09 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: >On Nov 29, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Or how about Virt e'Terics talking to Vlad about the conscript >> troops in >> the other companies? I believe her quote was "They're Teckla". >> >> They. Meaning more than one. Followed by Teckla sans "s". >> >> I nearly think this nails down the plural form of Teckla at the very >> least. >> >> >Unless, of course, the author mis-heard Tecklae... If you really want to geek out about it, here's a good read on plural forms in English: http://bartleby.com/64/81.html I have no idea if the same sorts of issues come up in Hunga-- er, I mean Fenarian. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 12:09:58 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:09:58 -0800 Subject: Question for Steve, about an e'Baritt In-Reply-To: <438B8186.40703@dreamcafe.com> References: <438B8186.40703@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: On 11/28/05, skzb wrote: [re: "Karla" vs "Kiraamoni"] > Not exactly a typo; Karla is a diminutive. I didn't realize that I > never used that form of he name in the text. OK, thanks. I'm trying to recall other diminutive and/or familiar names in the books. There's "Miki", "Vili" and "Laci" (for Mikos, Vilmos and Laszlo) in BP, and of course "Vlad" is a diminutive itself. But I would have thought that Paarfi was too formal to use diminutives and nicknames, generally. Now I find myself trying to imagine a non-Paarfian meeting between certain characters: Khaavren: Hello, I am Khaavren of Castlerock. Tazendra: Hiya, Kav! I'm Tazendra of, you know, here and there. Call me Taz. Aerich: Hello, Tazendra. I am called Aerich. Tazendra: Hey, you're very cute, um... Ricky? Aerich (*shaking head slightly, with a wry grin*): Absolutely not. Call me Aerich, or nothing, please. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 12:10:44 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:10:44 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/29/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > If you really want to geek out about it, here's a good read on plural > forms in English: > > http://bartleby.com/64/81.html > Aha. "Some nouns, mainly names of birds, fishes, and mammals, have the same form in the plural as in the singular. [...] Some words that follow this pattern [...] also have regular plurals ending in -s." "Many words indicating nationality or place of origin have the same form in the plural as in the singular." "Similarly a few names of tribes or peoples have the same form in the plural as in the singular. Many other such names have both an unchanged plural form and a regular plural form ending in -s." "Many nouns derived from a foreign language retain their foreign plurals." Given that the House names are also animal names, and can be considered, in a sense, to indicate a sort of nationality and/or tribe and/or "people", and most are in a "foreign" language, well, I'm not surprised that it is confusing, and both changed and unchanged plural usage can seem correct either way, in certain situations. Sigh. I did want to come up with some vague basis for a standard for the wikipedia. I would prefer my own preferences, of course, since my idiosyncrasies and eccentricities are more correct than anyone else's [1]. I guess that will have to wait until I (or someone) has the time and inclination to search the books carefully for modified and unmodified plural forms. Or perhaps SKZB might offer to explain what standards, if any, he uses. I would have thought that there had to be something, since copy-editors and whatnot might feel inclined to, well, edit the copy. Incidentally, book search does not find any occurrence of "Phoenixes" in any of the books in its index (which includes TPG and FHYA, where the word might legitimately occur). I think we've nailed down "Teckla" as being definitely an unmodified plural. Fifteen more to go? _________________________ 1: This follows logically from generalizing from one example. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Nov 29 15:24:30 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:24:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I would prefer my own preferences, of course, since my idiosyncrasies > and eccentricities are more correct than anyone else's [1]. Beware conflating what is and what should be, assuming the latter exists. Anyway, you're as qualified a person to decide this as anyone short of SKZB or maybe Mark Mandel, and the latter seems to be away and I don't trust the Former. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Nov 30 09:47:41 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:47:41 -0800 Subject: Morrolan's Age Message-ID: Apologies if this has already been discussed at some point, but this question has been nagging me: Just how old is Morrolan? It is said in several places that he was born near the beginning of the Interregnum (possibly even right before Adron's Disaster). Yet, In "Paths of the Dead", (while he still thinks of himself as an Easterner) he says to Miska, "A hundred years is too long for me, good Miska; I doubt I shall live that long." Since this is 156 years into the Interregnum, it appears that Morrolan is already half again as old as this WHEN HE MAKES THIS STATEMENT. It seems unlikely that he was born more than a year or two after Adron's Disaster, however, since his father perished during the catyclysm. Can we chalk this one up to Paarfi misquoting Morrolan in PotD? Or is there a more mundane explanation? Majikjon From alexx at panix.com Wed Nov 30 10:07:23 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Morrolan's Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200511301807.jAUI7Nw16317@panix2.panix.com> > > Apologies if this has already been discussed at some point, but this > question has been nagging me: > > Just how old is Morrolan? > > It is said in several places that he was born near the beginning of the > Interregnum (possibly even right before Adron's Disaster). > > Yet, In "Paths of the Dead", (while he still thinks of himself as an > Easterner) he says to Miska, "A hundred years is too long for me, good > Miska; I doubt I shall live that long." > > Since this is 156 years into the Interregnum, it appears that Morrolan is > already half again as old as this WHEN HE MAKES THIS STATEMENT. > > It seems unlikely that he was born more than a year or two after Adron's > Disaster, however, since his father perished during the catyclysm. > > Can we chalk this one up to Paarfi misquoting Morrolan in PotD? Or is > there a more mundane explanation? Paarfi quite consistently portrays Morrolan (at least at this time) as being totally clueless. I'd say this is just anoher example of that. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "More irregular verbs: I address the issues, you launch ad-hominem attacks, he's a flaming maniac and should have his access pulled." -- Dani Zweig From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 30 10:43:00 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:43:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan's Age In-Reply-To: <200511301807.jAUI7Nw16317@panix2.panix.com> References: <200511301807.jAUI7Nw16317@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Alexx Kay wrote: > Paarfi quite consistently portrays Morrolan (at least at this time) as > being totally clueless. I'd say this is just another example of that. Sethra has to have her little jokes. Actually, 150 years is something like 18 to a Dragaeran. Presumably he has no memory of his first few decades, and then probably for many years didn't keep track. He might think he's a young 50. I take it that his human guardians went to some trouble to keep him from thinking about his age as a way to maintain as best they could his protective ignorance. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 15:24:39 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:24:39 -0800 Subject: Question for Steve, about an e'Baritt In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0511291533v3a055496rc17c13fcdb07bc6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <438B8186.40703@dreamcafe.com> <2ddbda5f0511291533v3a055496rc17c13fcdb07bc6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: [forwarding to the list, since that looks to be appropriate] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Maximilian Wilson Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Question for Steve, about an e'Baritt To: Davdi Silverrock On 11/29/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Now I find myself trying to imagine a non-Paarfian meeting between > certain characters: > > Khaavren: Hello, I am Khaavren of Castlerock. > Tazendra: Hiya, Kav! I'm Tazendra of, you know, here and there. Call me Taz. > Aerich: Hello, Tazendra. I am called Aerich. > Tazendra: Hey, you're very cute, um... Ricky? > Aerich (*shaking head slightly, with a wry grin*): Absolutely not. > Call me Aerich, or nothing, please. > Interesting. The George R. R. Martin newsgroup has a CHOW (Chapter of the Week) coordinated re-read of SOIAF going on; what if we had a re-read of the Paarfiad, or even a "The Way It Really Was" version of the same events? Anyone care to re-write the almost-fight between Sethra and Aliera? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 15:40:51 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:40:51 -0800 Subject: Undead in the Imperial Court Message-ID: Verra, in /Taltos/: "and there are imperial rules against the undead holding official imperial positions." Paarfi, recounting the ceremony after the victory of the /Battle of Adrilankha/: "Sethra Lavode, for her part, was given nothing, but the ban upon her presence at court was lifted, and an official apology was tendered both from the Empire, and from the House of the Phoenix." Perhaps Verra was simply not informed about current events regarding imperial policy and the undead? I assume that the "ban" was not enforced (or at least, not during Zeika's reign), especially since Zerika made Sethra Lavode the Warlord *before* this "official" lifting of the ban. Even in Tortaalik's time, the ban seemed to be more a matter of "Let's not invite the vampire" (rather than, say, "If she shows up, she is to be denied entry or arrested"). From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 15:50:35 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:50:35 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/29/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I would prefer my own preferences, of course, since my idiosyncrasies > > and eccentricities are more correct than anyone else's [1]. > > > Beware conflating what is and what should be, assuming the latter exists. Speaking of "should be"s, well, there *should be* some way of signalling facetiousness and humor. I understand that some use a strange and outlandish construction involving a concatenation of a colon (or semicolon), hyphen, and right-parenthesis (or capital D), in exactly that sequence, but I understand that this is deprecated by some authorities, which is hardly surprizing. I mean, really now. In the absence of such a construction, well, all that one can hope is that the tautological outrageousness of a particular statement is indeed its own signal of facetiousness. > Anyway, you're as qualified a person to decide this as anyone short of > SKZB or maybe Mark Mandel, and the latter seems to be away and I don't > trust the Former. > Oh, bah. It is to induce blushing, I nearly think. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Nov 30 15:54:45 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/29/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > I would prefer my own preferences, of course, since my idiosyncrasies > > > and eccentricities are more correct than anyone else's [1]. > > > > > > Beware conflating what is and what should be, assuming the latter exists. > > Speaking of "should be"s, well, there *should be* some way of > signalling facetiousness and humor. That's incorrect. > In the absence of such a construction, well, all that one can hope is > that the tautological outrageousness of a particular statement is > indeed its own signal of facetiousness. One can hope for all sorts of things, such as that ripostes in kind will be recognized as such. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 30 16:37:03 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:37:03 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Speaking of "should be"s, well, there *should be* some way of >signalling facetiousness and humor. > I'm not sure I agree. Well, we have our Internet equivalences of winking, but I loved it when I read my first Hiaasen book. I started off reading, then saying to my self, "is this funny?", for a while before deciding "yes, it is very funny indeed". Do you want Steve to tell us all of his jokes? Or do you want to discover some of them during one read, more in another? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Nov 30 17:18:56 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:18:56 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> References: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> Message-ID: <438E4F80.4030701@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > Do you want Steve to tell us all of his jokes? Or do you want to > discover some of them during one read, more in another? Steve's jokes are just one more thing to be noted and catalogued in the Wikicity. I really AM a Lyorn, aren't I? Incidentally, I recently added a new page to the wikicity all of you might be interested in, it's a "Dramtis Locali" page, in the spirit of the :"Dramatis Personae" page, only this one with place names (Bryan, are you paying attention?). This particular pearl od wisdom can be found at: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali Okay, that's enough self-promotion for one day, anyway. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 18:06:18 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:06:18 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/30/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 11/29/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > I would prefer my own preferences, of course, since my idiosyncrasies > > > > and eccentricities are more correct than anyone else's [1]. > > > > > > > > > Beware conflating what is and what should be, assuming the latter exists. > > > > Speaking of "should be"s, well, there *should be* some way of > > signalling facetiousness and humor. > > That's incorrect. Well, perhaps there is some justice in what you say. > > > In the absence of such a construction, well, all that one can hope is > > that the tautological outrageousness of a particular statement is > > indeed its own signal of facetiousness. > > One can hope for all sorts of things, such as that ripostes in kind will > be recognized as such. *Exactly!!!!!* It is very nearly even as you have the honor to say. "Are you being sarcastic, dude?" "I don't even know anymore." From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 18:19:39 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:19:39 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> References: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 11/30/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >Speaking of "should be"s, well, there *should be* some way of > >signalling facetiousness and humor. > > > > I'm not sure I agree. Well, we have our Internet equivalences of > winking, but I loved it when I read my first Hiaasen book. I started > off reading, then saying to my self, "is this funny?", for a while > before deciding "yes, it is very funny indeed". > > Do you want Steve to tell us all of his jokes? Or do you want to > discover some of them during one read, more in another? > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. Come to think of it, there are still things that I'm not entirely certain whether or not he (or one of his characters) was serious about. Such as norska only eating dragons that they have killed themselves, to offer one example. From johne.cook at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 20:49:01 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:49:01 -0600 Subject: ABaDC: 11/28/05 Message-ID: >From the latest Brust blog post: "Now I need to get to work; I have three days to turn my notes on Dzur revisions into text (and some of my notes say things like, "Fix this," so it could be entertaining)." I had to laugh. I do this all the time in my day job tech writing. My variant is usually something like "Insert link here" or "This paragraph should be better but I've got nothin'." It helps that I bold and italicize such sections so they stand out. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From bryann at bryann.net Wed Nov 30 22:32:03 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:32:03 -0600 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <438E4F80.4030701@comcast.net> Message-ID: <002701c5f640$f1689530$6501a8c0@dell> > Incidentally, I recently added a new page to the wikicity all > of you might be interested in, it's a "Dramtis Locali" page, > in the spirit of the :"Dramatis Personae" page, only this one > with place names (Bryan, are you paying attention?). Yes indeed, I was just looking at that last night. I am nearly convinced that I should probably start filling in the blanks there. The next version of the map should be ready before too long. It's mostly a question of making it presentable. It should be a big improvement over version 0.1, as Steve has been gracious enough to discuss the geography with me a bit over the last year. Bryan From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 1 06:50:13 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:50:13 -0700 Subject: Undead in the Imperial Court References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davdi Silverrock" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Undead in the Imperial Court Verra, in /Taltos/: "and there are imperial rules against the undead holding official imperial positions." Paarfi, recounting the ceremony after the victory of the /Battle of Adrilankha/: "Sethra Lavode, for her part, was given nothing, but the ban upon her presence at court was lifted, and an official apology was tendered both from the Empire, and from the House of the Phoenix." Perhaps Verra was simply not informed about current events regarding imperial policy and the undead? I assume that the "ban" was not enforced (or at least, not during Zeika's reign), especially since Zerika made Sethra Lavode the Warlord *before* this "official" lifting of the ban. Even in Tortaalik's time, the ban seemed to be more a matter of "Let's not invite the vampire" (rather than, say, "If she shows up, she is to be denied entry or arrested"). Who is going to enforce the ban on Sethra anyway? Not me, cobber. Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 1 06:55:51 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:55:51 -0700 Subject: ABaDC: 11/28/05 References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:49 PM Subject: ABaDC: 11/28/05 >From the latest Brust blog post: "Now I need to get to work; I have three days to turn my notes on Dzur revisions into text (and some of my notes say things like, "Fix this," so it could be entertaining)." I had to laugh. I do this all the time in my day job tech writing. My variant is usually something like "Insert link here" or "This paragraph should be better but I've got nothin'." It helps that I bold and italicize such sections so they stand out. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com Brrrrrrrr, tech writing. The only thing worse than that is writing military briefings and training presentations. It isn't simply a matter of presenting information, you have to suck the life out of your target audience as well. In essence, a literary vampire. Heh. Jeff From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 11:01:10 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:01:10 -0600 Subject: ABaDC: 11/28/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/1/05, Jeff G. wrote: > Brrrrrrrr, tech writing. The only thing worse than that is writing military > briefings and training presentations. It isn't simply a matter of presenting > information, you have to suck the life out of your target audience as well. > In essence, a literary vampire. Heh. > > Jeff What better way to obtain the vitality and lifeforce to remain down through the centuries? Many Bothans (and SMEs) have died to safeguard this information. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 1 14:03:45 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:03:45 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: >I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, >once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather >than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's >the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. > >Come to think of it, there are still things that I'm not entirely >certain whether or not he (or one of his characters) was serious >about. Such as norska only eating dragons that they have killed >themselves, to offer one example. I don't think he's going to be dropping his poker face anytime soon; he has to stay in practice, after all. And your example here may say more about the dragons than about the norska, methinks... Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051201/c5c42257/attachment.html From pulmon at mac.com Thu Dec 1 20:03:22 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:03:22 -0500 Subject: Morrolan's Age In-Reply-To: References: <200511301807.jAUI7Nw16317@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: <72214DFC-3A22-4FDA-A31F-BB8CBCD489F2@mac.com> On Nov 30, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Alexx Kay wrote: > >> Paarfi quite consistently portrays Morrolan (at least at this >> time) as >> being totally clueless. I'd say this is just another example of >> that. > > Sethra has to have her little jokes. > > Actually, 150 years is something like 18 to a Dragaeran. > Presumably he > has no memory of his first few decades, and then probably for many > years > didn't keep track. He might think he's a young 50. I take it that > his > human guardians went to some trouble to keep him from thinking > about his > age as a way to maintain as best they could his protective ignorance. How long is a Dragaeran pregnancy? If he is Rollondar's son, his mother must have been pregnant at the time of the Disaster. If the relationship between Dragaeran and human is linear, then Dragaeran pregnancy lasts about 22 years. That covers at least som of the time (with apologies to the mathematically inclined...) From pulmon at mac.com Thu Dec 1 20:05:16 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:05:16 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Nov 30, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> > > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. > > Come to think of it, there are still things that I'm not entirely > certain whether or not he (or one of his characters) was serious > about. Such as norska only eating dragons that they have killed > themselves, to offer one example. I can hear an auctorial voice going, "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051201/7b50b445/attachment.htm From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Fri Dec 2 09:50:09 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:50:09 -0500 Subject: ABaDC: 11/28/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:49:01 -0500, Johne Cook wrote: >> From the latest Brust blog post: > "Now I need to get to work; I have three days to turn my notes on Dzur > revisions into text (and some of my notes say things like, "Fix this," > so it could be entertaining)." > > I had to laugh. I do this all the time in my day job tech writing. > My variant is usually something like "Insert link here" or "This > paragraph should be better but I've got nothin'." It helps that I > bold and italicize such sections so they stand out. I personally use a "//TODO:" tag when I'm leaving part of my program code incomplete or otherwise ugly. //TODO: add another paragraph here, not enough useless text in this email yet It's relatively easy to do a global search for that string, as I know it's not going to show in up significant number anywhere other than places I need to fix. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 17:24:21 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:24:21 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> References: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512021724n5218b25bg77d7156d50fada9a@mail.gmail.com> On 11/30/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > > Do you want Steve to tell us all of his jokes? Or do you want to > discover some of them during one read, more in another? > That fiendishly clever salad flax...! Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 18:16:44 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:16:44 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <438E45AF.1070204@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 11/30/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 11/30/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > >Speaking of "should be"s, well, there *should be* some way of > > >signalling facetiousness and humor. > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree. Well, we have our Internet equivalences of > > winking, but I loved it when I read my first Hiaasen book. I started > > off reading, then saying to my self, "is this funny?", for a while > > before deciding "yes, it is very funny indeed". > > > > Do you want Steve to tell us all of his jokes? Or do you want to > > discover some of them during one read, more in another? > > > > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. Although, to the left, I have just recently [1] found Mark Twain's essay: http://www.boondocksnet.com/twaintexts/how_story.html Where, among other things, he writes: [Begin Cite] The humorous story is told gravely; the teller does his best to conceal the fact that he even dimly suspects that there is anything funny about it; but the teller of the comic story tells you beforehand that it is one of the funniest things he has ever heard, then tells it with eager delight, and is the first person to laugh when he gets through. And sometimes, if he has had good success, he is so glad and happy that he will repeat the "nub" of it and glance around from face to face, collecting applause, and then repeat it again. It is a pathetic thing to see. [End Cite] I have to admit, given the option of only those extremes, that the deadpan and wry does appear to be prefereable to the overly-emphatic. But I simply hope that there is a happy medium that can be found. __________________ 1: (actually, via Crooked Timber's " Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell Seminar", http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-seminar-introduction/) Which has some interesting points of discussion about all sorts of things, including some sketches of servant depicition in Dickens that made me think of the Paarfi when he is portraying his Teckla characters. There's also two words by Ms. Clarke herself, which is nice. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 20:26:23 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:26:23 -0700 Subject: ABaDC: 11/28/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512022026y315cbb36g3a27ec7fee8e13f8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/2/05, Grady Brandt wrote: > It's relatively easy to do a global search for that string, as I know it's > not going to show in up significant number anywhere other than places I > need to fix. You know you're a programmer if: ...you've ever 'grepped' for 'foos.' Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 13:33:05 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 14:33:05 -0700 Subject: Undead in the Imperial Court In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512031333g425e30ebs4b1896ffcd686f9b@mail.gmail.com> On 11/30/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Verra, in /Taltos/: > > "and there are imperial rules against the undead holding official > imperial positions." > > Paarfi, recounting the ceremony after the victory of the /Battle of > Adrilankha/: > > "Sethra Lavode, for her part, was given nothing, but the ban upon her > presence at court was lifted, and an official apology was tendered > both from the Empire, and from the House of the Phoenix." Note that this does not constitute an imperial position, merely a removal of official displeasure. The Warlord issue is a bit more curious, but events were pressing... note that Setha did not *remain* Warlord down to Vlad's time, so perhaps the "rule" is still in force, especially since the extenuating circumstances have passed. *before* this "official" lifting of the ban. Even in Tortaalik's > time, the ban seemed to be more a matter of "Let's not invite the > vampire" (rather than, say, "If she shows up, she is to be denied > entry or arrested"). > Heh. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051203/fa9090da/attachment.html From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 21:30:16 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:30:16 -0800 Subject: the Yendi Conspiracy Message-ID: One of the things that I like about the Wikipedia is seeing summaries for a particular thing can sometimes bring new thoughts about what's being summarized. Case in point: The conspiracy in /Yendi/. As it is laid out, what Sethra the Younger wanted was to conquer the East. OK, it's a goal, everyone has hobbies... but how did she go about achieving this goal? Well, she apparantly decided that (a) the Emperor had to be one in favor of conquest, and (b) the Warlord had to be in favor of conquest. Obviously, the Warlord would preferably be herself, but it seems likely that she would have accepted an immediately subordinate rank if she could just be the /de facto/ leader of the conquering forces. And she enlists her friend, a Yendi sorceress, in order to carry this out. OK, there's just one wee problem: It's stupid! Or at least, woefully incomplete. And her Yendi friend should have been able to point out what was *really* necessary. In order to launch a conquest, what you need to do is: (a) convince those that like to fight that there will be plenty of fighting. (b) convince those that like profit that there will be plenty of loot. (c) convince anyone not in the above that the target of the conquest is a terrible threat. (d) convince everyone that anyone who is skeptical about the venture is a traitor, or just too weak. So given a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign as events lead up to the next reign, and maybe a few Easterner attacks (fabricated from nothing, or real ones exaggerated wildly) it wouldn't *matter* who the Emperor or Warlord is - the war would be sold, and K'laiyer e'Lanya (had he become Emperor) would have had to permit the armies to advance East for purely political reasons, regardless of his own feelings in the matter. Hm. Although there may be other factors as well. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 22:00:32 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:00:32 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans Message-ID: Some speculative thinking: An absolutely crucial point of the "(crossbreed) bastardy" smear against Norathar e'Lanya was that at no point would anyone besides the conspirators ever perform the gene-scan on her. Sethra the Younger had performed the first gene-scan, the Sorceress in Green (posing as an Athyra) performed the second scan before the Dragon council. And yet, Sethra Lavode was *there* when they found the infant Norathar after K'Laiyer's armies were defeated. There she was, and there was the infant. Rather than performing the scan herself, when it was quite possible for her to do so, just to be *sure* that there was no error... she had her apprentice do it. Her apprentice, who had found the "problem" in the first place, and even if Sethra Lavode didn't suspect Sethra the Younger's *motives*, she ought to at least have had the slight suspicion of her *competence* to perform this final, condemning gene-scan herself. Or just perform one herself *after* Sethra the Younger said, "Yup, she's still definitely a bastard." But she didn't. Now, we ask ourselves, whyever not? Is it a particularly difficult thing to do? It doesn't *sound* like it, especially since this *is* Sethra Lavode we're talking about. One possibility that occurred to me is that it might be that the gene-scan spell requires that the one performing it have a "clean" genetic profile, something that might provide yet another hint that Sethra Lavode is a cross-breed. However, another thought that occurred to me is that some spells - particularly ones that involve intimate interaction with another living being - are not possible for Sethra Lavode to perform without having some very unfortunate side-effects due to her current life-state. Or, to put it a little more bluntly, Sethra Lavode didn't gene-scan baby Norathar because she didn't want for Norathar's life-force to be drained into herself. After having this notion, I also found myself wondering if Sethra Lavode had ever performed any other spells that affect the body intimately. Has she ever healed anyone? Has she ever revivified anyone? I seem to recall that she has not; whenever anything of that nature needed doing, she would leave it to Aliera or Morrolan to perform. Although perhaps I have misremembered, so I ask the list in case anyone can recall a counterexample. From howard at brazee.net Sun Dec 4 06:25:08 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:25:08 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4392FC44.6040308@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Now, we ask ourselves, whyever not? Is it a particularly difficult >thing to do? It doesn't *sound* like it, especially since this *is* >Sethra Lavode we're talking about. > > In real life politicians always do things the smart way and never make mistakes. And the smartest politicians are never over-confident with their choices. From alexx at panix.com Sun Dec 4 07:50:03 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:50:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: the Yendi Conspiracy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200512041550.jB4Fo3n23200@panix2.panix.com> > > As it is laid out, what Sethra the Younger wanted was to conquer the > East. OK, it's a goal, everyone has hobbies... but how did she go > about achieving this goal? Well, she apparantly decided that (a) the > Emperor had to be one in favor of conquest, and (b) the Warlord had to > be in favor of conquest. Obviously, the Warlord would preferably be > herself, but it seems likely that she would have accepted an > immediately subordinate rank if she could just be the /de facto/ > leader of the conquering forces. > > And she enlists her friend, a Yendi sorceress, in order to carry this out. > > OK, there's just one wee problem: It's stupid! Or at least, woefully > incomplete. And her Yendi friend should have been able to point out > what was *really* necessary. The first big mistake was involving a Yendi. So the Yendi was involved in a plan that was over-complicated, abstruse, and not remotely the "right" way to go? Imagine my shock and surprise! > In order to launch a conquest, what you need to do is: > > (a) convince those that like to fight that there will be plenty of fighting= > . > (b) convince those that like profit that there will be plenty of loot. > (c) convince anyone not in the above that the target of the conquest > is a terrible threat. > (d) convince everyone that anyone who is skeptical about the venture > is a traitor, or just too weak. > > So given a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign as events lead > up to the next reign, and maybe a few Easterner attacks (fabricated > from nothing, or real ones exaggerated wildly) it wouldn't *matter* > who the Emperor or Warlord is - the war would be sold, and K'laiyer > e'Lanya (had he become Emperor) would have had to permit the armies to > advance East for purely political reasons, regardless of his own > feelings in the matter. With respect, those ingredients *will* get you a *war* -- but not necessarily a war of *conquest*. That requires positive political will, not simple reluctant acquiescence on the part of the leader. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it." -- Tallulah Bankhead From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 08:56:39 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 08:56:39 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans Message-ID: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Some speculative thinking: > > An absolutely crucial point of the "(crossbreed) bastardy" smear > against Norathar e'Lanya was that at no point would anyone besides the > conspirators ever perform the gene-scan on her. Sethra the Younger > had performed the first gene-scan, the Sorceress in Green (posing as > an Athyra) performed the second scan before the Dragon council. > > And yet, Sethra Lavode was *there* when they found the infant Norathar > after K'Laiyer's armies were defeated. There she was, and there was > the infant. Rather than performing the scan herself, when it was > quite possible for her to do so, just to be *sure* that there was no > error... she had her apprentice do it. Her apprentice, who had found > the "problem" in the first place, and even if Sethra Lavode didn't > suspect Sethra the Younger's *motives*, she ought to at least have had > the slight suspicion of her *competence* to perform this final, > condemning gene-scan herself. Or just perform one herself *after* > Sethra the Younger said, "Yup, she's still definitely a bastard." > > But she didn't. > > Of course, any time Sethra is needed to perform a particularly difficult task, she's invariably busy doing something else. (Usually involving the Jenoine, at least, that's been her excuse in the last few books.) Perhaps this was at one of those times that the Jenoine attacked Dragaera? (We know that they attacked both The Greater Sea of Chaos and the Imperial Palace in incidents that have not yet been revealed in the books.) Of course, since she is so preoccupued with the task of defending against the Jenoine, it may be that she's just so used to delegating any tasks that she doesn't absolutely have to do herself that she just had StY do it without thinking about it too much. > One possibility that occurred to me is that it might be that the > gene-scan spell requires that the one performing it have a "clean" > genetic profile, something that might provide yet another hint that > Sethra Lavode is a cross-breed. > > However, another thought that occurred to me is that some spells - > particularly ones that involve intimate interaction with another > living being - are not possible for Sethra Lavode to perform without > having some very unfortunate side-effects due to her current > life-state. > > Or, to put it a little more bluntly, Sethra Lavode didn't gene-scan > baby Norathar because she didn't want for Norathar's life-force to be > drained into herself. > > After having this notion, I also found myself wondering if Sethra > Lavode had ever performed any other spells that affect the body > intimately. Has she ever healed anyone? Has she ever revivified > anyone? I seem to recall that she has not; whenever anything of that > nature needed doing, she would leave it to Aliera or Morrolan to > perform. > > Although perhaps I have misremembered, so I ask the list in case > anyone can recall a counterexample. > > While the only person we've ever SEEN do a revivification is Aliera (and even then, only revivifying Morrolan in /Jhereg/ is actually witnessed), Vlad does imply that the Necromancer could have done it just as easily (and she is undead, as well). Also, in /Yendi/ when Vlad asks who revivified him, he guesses it might have been Sethra, then Aliera tells him it was her--implying that at least Vlad thought that Sethra would be capable of doing the spell herself. None of this is, of course, conclusive in any way. Vlad understands revivification about as well as he claims to understand Dragons... That is to say, not very well at all. While I find the idea of Sethra being unwilling to do certain spells due to her life-state interesting, I don't think it's a theory I subscribe to. Someone with the power of Sethra Lavode (or the Necromancer) wouldn't be hog-tied by any petty limitations of that sort--she'd be able to do the spell just fine. As I say, my guess is she was just a little pre-occupied at the time. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 09:03:02 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 09:03:02 -0800 Subject: the Yendi Conspiracy In-Reply-To: <200512041550.jB4Fo3n23200@panix2.panix.com> References: <200512041550.jB4Fo3n23200@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: <43932146.4040903@comcast.net> Alexx Kay wrote: > The first big mistake was involving a Yendi. So the Yendi was involved in > >a plan that was over-complicated, abstruse, and not remotely the "right" way >to go? Imagine my shock and surprise! > > > Of course, given that she *is* a Yendi, we also have to allow for the possibility that the Sorceress in Green was never in favor of the war against the East herself, and was just using StY in some game of her own devising. >>In order to launch a conquest, what you need to do is: >> >>(a) convince those that like to fight that there will be plenty of fighting= >>. >>(b) convince those that like profit that there will be plenty of loot. >>(c) convince anyone not in the above that the target of the conquest >>is a terrible threat. >>(d) convince everyone that anyone who is skeptical about the venture >>is a traitor, or just too weak. >> >>So given a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign as events lead >>up to the next reign, and maybe a few Easterner attacks (fabricated >>from nothing, or real ones exaggerated wildly) it wouldn't *matter* >>who the Emperor or Warlord is - the war would be sold, and K'laiyer >>e'Lanya (had he become Emperor) would have had to permit the armies to >>advance East for purely political reasons, regardless of his own >>feelings in the matter. >> >> > >With respect, those ingredients *will* get you a *war* -- but not necessarily >a war of *conquest*. That requires positive political will, not simple >reluctant acquiescence on the part of the leader. > > Why does this all sound so strangely familiar, somehow? Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051204/01cfecd8/attachment.htm From pulmon at mac.com Sun Dec 4 09:31:11 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:31:11 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2424A11A-BD44-4B83-9E1B-E96FE1591D3E@mac.com> >> > While the only person we've ever SEEN do a revivification is Aliera > (and even then, only revivifying Morrolan in /Jhereg/ is actually > witnessed), Vlad does imply that the Necromancer could have done it > just as easily (and she is undead, as well). > > Also, in /Yendi/ when Vlad asks who revivified him, he guesses it > might have been Sethra, then Aliera tells him it was her--implying > that at least Vlad thought that Sethra would be capable of doing > the spell herself. > > None of this is, of course, conclusive in any way. Vlad understands > revivification about as well as he claims to understand Dragons... > That is to say, not very well at all. > > While I find the idea of Sethra being unwilling to do certain > spells due to her life-state interesting, I don't think it's a > theory I subscribe to. Someone with the power of Sethra Lavode (or > the Necromancer) wouldn't be hog-tied by any petty limitations of > that sort--she'd be able to do the spell just fine. As I say, my > guess is she was just a little pre-occupied at the time. > > Majikjon > While the Necromancer is often referred to as undead, we must remember that she is in fact a demon from another dimension to whom life and death are no more complex than coffee or tea to the rest of us... From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 09:50:24 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:50:24 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Of course, since she is so preoccupued with the task of defending > against the Jenoine, it may be that she's just so used to delegating any > tasks that she doesn't absolutely have to do herself that she just had > StY do it without thinking about it too much. > Good point. That's what apprentices are for, right? Tedious grunt-work. Although there's no particular reason she *couldn't* have done the gene-scan herself, if she'd wanted to... maybe the Yendi Conspiracy was just gambling that she wouldn't. If she had, it wouldn't have exposed them to any threat at that point, since StY hadn't yet faked a gene-scan. Maybe they would have fallen back to plan B, "kill the baby." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Sun Dec 4 10:14:13 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 11:14:13 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <439331F5.6070505@brazee.net> I don't think Sethra would want to be Warlord except in extraordinary circumstances. She is better off outside the normal political structure. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 11:23:09 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 11:23:09 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <439331F5.6070505@brazee.net> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <439331F5.6070505@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4393421D.8050406@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > I don't think Sethra would want to be Warlord except in extraordinary > circumstances. She is better off outside the normal political > structure. Under what circumstances would Sethra *want* to be Warlord? Simple. When it would most benefit the Empire for her to hold the position, rather than another. While Sethra Lavode seems to be without ambition of her own, my thought is that her ambitions may simply be more far-sighted than anyone else's.(Which would sort of make sense, given her longevity). This is not to say she is selfless, but it might often seem that way to the mere mortals around her who don't share her perspective. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 11:29:51 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 11:29:51 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <2424A11A-BD44-4B83-9E1B-E96FE1591D3E@mac.com> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2424A11A-BD44-4B83-9E1B-E96FE1591D3E@mac.com> Message-ID: <439343AF.9080003@comcast.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > While the Necromancer is often referred to as undead, we must > remember that she is in fact a demon from another dimension to whom > life and death are no more complex than coffee or tea to the rest of > us... > All we have to go on is Vlad's assessment (in Issola) that she is undead. (Somewhat surprisingly, I'd always assumed she was undead simply based on the discription of her appearance, but it wasn't until Issola that the word actually appeared in a description of her.) Paarfi takes no stance on her life-state that I can recall. Although I find the description of her origins in cahpter 18 of PotD to be very intriguing. The "World of Seven Doors" of which she "knows six, and is not entirely unacquainted with the seventh" interests me enormnously. I'm hopeful this reference wasn't just a one-off, and actually leads somewhere in one of the later books. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 12:27:13 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:27:13 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > Of course, since she is so preoccupued with the task of defending > > against the Jenoine, it may be that she's just so used to delegating any > > tasks that she doesn't absolutely have to do herself that she just had > > StY do it without thinking about it too much. I don't buy it. She is able to lead an army, with all of the attention that that requires, and can't be bothered to take the two seconds to peform a single spell? > > Good point. That's what apprentices are for, right? Tedious grunt-work. Bah. It's not like she was trying to move a sofa or something. > Although there's no particular reason she *couldn't* have done the gene-scan > herself, if she'd wanted to... Well, I have suggested two reasons. A third that occurred to me might be that she has a philosophical objection to the whole idea of "genetic purity", and thus does whatever she can to disinvolve herself from directly trying to test for such a thing. But that feels weak; I still like my "undead have to be careful about spells involving other people's bodies, or else". Incidentally, I thought of another point: When Sethra teleports Aliera, note that there is indeed a rather unfortunate side-effect to Aliera's soul. Perhaps, maybe, because of Sethra's undead state? > maybe the Yendi Conspiracy was just gambling > that she wouldn't. If she had, it wouldn't have exposed them to any threat > at that point, since StY hadn't yet faked a gene-scan. Huh. I'd misremembered that that was the first gene-scan, not the last. In my defense, the sequence of events is laid out in a confusing manner in the text. After a quick re-read: 1) Sethra Junior tells Sethra Lavode that Baritt talked to Miera (Norathar's mom), and that Miera told Baritt that Norathar was not K'laiyer's child, and that her father wasn't even a Dragon. (that's suspicious right there. Why would a Dragon voluntarily confess to cross-House infidelity, to another Dragon (rather, than, say, a Discreet)?) 2) Sethra Lavode brings this information to the Dragon Council. 3) K'laiyer e'Lanya, feeling insulted, brings an army against Sethra Lavode. (and why against Sethra Lavode rather than Junior? Or Baritt, for that matter?) (well, perhaps they were "Yendied" into thinking that Sethra L was the sole guilty one) 4) K'laiyer & Miera lose, and are killed. 5) Sethra Lavode takes over their lands. 6) They find 4-year old Norathar. Sethra Junior does the first scan and says "Bastard!" 7) Sethra Lavode turns K'laiyer's lands over to House Dragon and washes her hands of the whole business. 8) Before the entire Dragon Council, Baritt and an "Athyra" "Baroness Tierella" (secretly the SiG) do another gene-scan, and say "Bastard!" (witnessed by the Lyorn Countess Neorenti) 9) We don't know what happens to K'laiyer's possessions, or who raises Norathar, but she's not considered a Dragon anymore. > Maybe they would have fallen back to plan B, "kill the baby." Uh, no. If Sethra Lavode performs her own scan (it's even worse if it conflicts with Sethra the Younger's scan) and thus puts the lie to Sethra the Younger's & Baritt's accusation, their entire scheme is ruined, because Sethra Lavode is not going to be pleased with having been made a tool. Killing the baby makes it worse, not better. Plan B would have had to have been "Kill Sethra Lavode", and they would have had to have been pretty dumb to have *that* as a fallback plan. So it seems to me that they were pretty sure that under no circumstances would Sethra Lavode *ever* perform the gene-scan herself, despite being intimately involved in the whole mess. Which to me implies that there is *something* that would prevent her (or very strongly discourage her) from doing so. Unless, even more paranoid, Sethra Lavode *was* involved in the original plan. Hm. Well. And in addition to having Sethra Junior do her lines, tells her "If you try to put this crap on me, I will *end* you". But that seems unlikely to me. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 12:39:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:39:01 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/4/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > So it seems to me that they were pretty sure that under no > circumstances would Sethra Lavode *ever* perform the gene-scan > herself, despite being intimately involved in the whole mess. Which > to me implies that there is *something* that would prevent her (or > very strongly discourage her) from doing so. > Which, I hasten to add, is something that the conspirators would have to have been aware of. They are all high-class sorcerers, and at least one of them was closely associated with Sethra Lavode for some period of time, and therefore it is plausible that they would have had *some* way of gaining direct knowledge of this piece of information. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 12:47:00 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:47:00 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I don't buy it. She is able to lead an army, with all of the >attention that that requires, and can't be bothered to take the two >seconds to peform a single spell? > > > Well, there's also the healing that she was going to perform on Vlad's arm in Issola. Really, I think my primary objection to this line of thinking is that it says that Sethra is confounded simply by her life state--which is, to her, almost as much a "matter of engineering" as it is to the Necromancer. I find that possibility much more improbable than the alternative. >Bah. It's not like she was trying to move a sofa or something. > > > Well, considering Sethra's sofas are madeof solid stone, even *that* task isn't as easy as it might seem. ;-) >Well, I have suggested two reasons. A third that occurred to me might >be that she has a philosophical objection to the whole idea of >"genetic purity", and thus does whatever she can to disinvolve herself >from directly trying to test for such a thing. But that feels weak; I >still like my "undead have to be careful about spells involving other >people's bodies, or else". > >Incidentally, I thought of another point: When Sethra teleports >Aliera, note that there is indeed a rather unfortunate side-effect to >Aliera's soul. Perhaps, maybe, because of Sethra's undead state? > > Interesting notion, although Sethra herself seems to imply that it was more the impending explosion of amorphia that put her off saving Aliera than anything else. Also, remember those countless teleports she did bewteen Dzur Mountain and Castle Black right after the ninth (or Tenth) Seige of Dzur Mountain... With no untoward after effects. >Uh, no. If Sethra Lavode performs her own scan (it's even worse if it >conflicts with Sethra the Younger's scan) and thus puts the lie to >Sethra the Younger's & Baritt's accusation, their entire scheme is >ruined, because Sethra Lavode is not going to be pleased with having >been made a tool. Killing the baby makes it worse, not better. Plan >B would have had to have been "Kill Sethra Lavode", and they would >have had to have been pretty dumb to have *that* as a fallback plan. > >So it seems to me that they were pretty sure that under no >circumstances would Sethra Lavode *ever* perform the gene-scan >herself, despite being intimately involved in the whole mess. Which >to me implies that there is *something* that would prevent her (or >very strongly discourage her) from doing so. > > Well, it seems likely that the Sorceress in Green knows Sethra better than anyone else alive at the time the conspriacy was formed (or at least has known her for longer than anyone else). It was likely a calculated gamble as to how Sethra would react given the circumstances. And I wouldn't put it past the Sorceress in Green to be able to *invent* something that would distract Sethra at the critical moment, either. (Faking an attack from the Jenoine? Or even inviting a *real* attack, perhaps?) Majkjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 13:09:50 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:09:50 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >I don't buy it. She is able to lead an army, with all of the > >attention that that requires, and can't be bothered to take the two > >seconds to peform a single spell? > > > > > > > Well, there's also the healing that she was going to perform on Vlad's > arm in Issola. Really, I think my primary objection to this line of > thinking is that it says that Sethra is confounded simply by her life > state--which is, to her, almost as much a "matter of engineering" as it > is to the Necromancer. > > I find that possibility much more improbable than the alternative. Well, another idea that occurred to me is that Sethra Lavode *is* capable of learning and changing, so that as she becomes more used to dealing with being undead, she feels more confident of her ability to control any side-effects of her undead state (if there even actually are any, of course). Especially after the improvements to the Orb after the Interregnum, which I am sure Sethra took full advantage of (especially with teleportation, given your counterexample below). > >Bah. It's not like she was trying to move a sofa or something. > > > Well, considering Sethra's sofas are madeof solid stone, even *that* > task isn't as easy as it might seem. ;-) Heh. > > > >Incidentally, I thought of another point: When Sethra teleports > >Aliera, note that there is indeed a rather unfortunate side-effect to > >Aliera's soul. Perhaps, maybe, because of Sethra's undead state? > > > > > Interesting notion, although Sethra herself seems to imply that it was > more the impending explosion of amorphia that put her off saving Aliera > than anything else. Also, remember those countless teleports she did > bewteen Dzur Mountain and Castle Black right after the ninth (or Tenth) > Seige of Dzur Mountain... With no untoward after effects. > > > >So it seems to me that they were pretty sure that under no > >circumstances would Sethra Lavode *ever* perform the gene-scan > >herself, despite being intimately involved in the whole mess. Which > >to me implies that there is *something* that would prevent her (or > >very strongly discourage her) from doing so. > > > > > > Well, it seems likely that the Sorceress in Green knows Sethra better > than anyone else alive at the time the conspriacy was formed (or at > least has known her for longer than anyone else). It was likely a > calculated gamble as to how Sethra would react given the circumstances. > And I wouldn't put it past the Sorceress in Green to be able to *invent* > something that would distract Sethra at the critical moment, either. > (Faking an attack from the Jenoine? Or even inviting a *real* attack, > perhaps?) > Hm. I suspect that if Sethra Lavode figured out that the SiG had invited a Jenoine attack, the SiG would not have been revivifiable. But it need not have been anything so drastic. As you say... perhaps it was just that as the Sethras approached Norathar, StY psionically told the SiG: "We're here! Quick, distract her!" And thus the SiG communicated to Sethra Lavode something mundane that did actually require her attention, while StY said "I'll perform the genescan". And Sethra Lavode walked away from Norathar, in a bad mood about the whole business. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 13:47:58 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:47:58 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> Message-ID: Re: Jhereg. Kiera finds Vlad dead in a gutter, Sethra revives him. So no go there. On 12/4/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > >I don't buy it. She is able to lead an army, with all of the > > >attention that that requires, and can't be bothered to take the two > > >seconds to peform a single spell? > > > > > > > > > > > Well, there's also the healing that she was going to perform on Vlad's > > arm in Issola. Really, I think my primary objection to this line of > > thinking is that it says that Sethra is confounded simply by her life > > state--which is, to her, almost as much a "matter of engineering" as it > > is to the Necromancer. > > > > I find that possibility much more improbable than the alternative. > > Well, another idea that occurred to me is that Sethra Lavode *is* > capable of learning and changing, so that as she becomes more used to > dealing with being undead, she feels more confident of her ability to > control any side-effects of her undead state (if there even actually > are any, of course). Especially after the improvements to the Orb > after the Interregnum, which I am sure Sethra took full advantage of > (especially with teleportation, given your counterexample below). > > > >Bah. It's not like she was trying to move a sofa or something. > > > > > Well, considering Sethra's sofas are madeof solid stone, even *that* > > task isn't as easy as it might seem. ;-) > > Heh. > > > > > > >Incidentally, I thought of another point: When Sethra teleports > > >Aliera, note that there is indeed a rather unfortunate side-effect to > > >Aliera's soul. Perhaps, maybe, because of Sethra's undead state? > > > > > > > > Interesting notion, although Sethra herself seems to imply that it was > > more the impending explosion of amorphia that put her off saving Aliera > > than anything else. Also, remember those countless teleports she did > > bewteen Dzur Mountain and Castle Black right after the ninth (or Tenth) > > Seige of Dzur Mountain... With no untoward after effects. > > > > > > >So it seems to me that they were pretty sure that under no > > >circumstances would Sethra Lavode *ever* perform the gene-scan > > >herself, despite being intimately involved in the whole mess. Which > > >to me implies that there is *something* that would prevent her (or > > >very strongly discourage her) from doing so. > > > > > > > > > > Well, it seems likely that the Sorceress in Green knows Sethra better > > than anyone else alive at the time the conspriacy was formed (or at > > least has known her for longer than anyone else). It was likely a > > calculated gamble as to how Sethra would react given the circumstances. > > And I wouldn't put it past the Sorceress in Green to be able to *invent* > > something that would distract Sethra at the critical moment, either. > > (Faking an attack from the Jenoine? Or even inviting a *real* attack, > > perhaps?) > > > > Hm. I suspect that if Sethra Lavode figured out that the SiG had > invited a Jenoine attack, the SiG would not have been revivifiable. > > But it need not have been anything so drastic. As you say... perhaps > it was just that as the Sethras approached Norathar, StY psionically > told the SiG: "We're here! Quick, distract her!" > > And thus the SiG communicated to Sethra Lavode something mundane that > did actually require her attention, while StY said "I'll perform the > genescan". And Sethra Lavode walked away from Norathar, in a bad mood > about the whole business. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051204/bdb88a8e/attachment.html From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 14:08:16 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:08:16 -0800 Subject: Jhereg, and Vlad's history of revivification, a question for SKZB In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> Message-ID: <439368D0.5080201@comcast.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >Re: Jhereg. Kiera finds Vlad dead in a gutter, Sethra revives him. So no go >there. > > > I always felt this reference was trying to point to Vlad's experiences in /Yendi/ (although the story given in /Jhereg/ does directly conflict with what we see when /Yendi/ finally rolls around), but Vlad does say he's been killed "once" prior (as of /Jhereg/ (beginning of ch. 3)) and yet he clearly does die in /Yendi/, so I'm not really sure how to resolve the apparent conflict. Mr Brust, would you care to comment on the apparent conflict generated by these statements? Majikjon From st.shafer at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 16:26:08 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:26:08 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> Message-ID: <77369c850512041626t65d0b5ackaa03d3c99461322b@mail.gmail.com> > > > > > > >Incidentally, I thought of another point: When Sethra teleports > > >Aliera, note that there is indeed a rather unfortunate side-effect to > > >Aliera's soul. Perhaps, maybe, because of Sethra's undead state? > > > > > > > > Interesting notion, although Sethra herself seems to imply that it was > > more the impending explosion of amorphia that put her off saving Aliera > > than anything else. Also, remember those countless teleports she did > > bewteen Dzur Mountain and Castle Black right after the ninth (or Tenth) > > Seige of Dzur Mountain... With no untoward after effects. > > Sethra teleported other people in addition to Aliera while the amorphia was preparing to explode. Think about our much vaunted captain of the Pheonix Guards... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051204/0611cce2/attachment.htm From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 16:36:38 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:36:38 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <77369c850512041626t65d0b5ackaa03d3c99461322b@mail.gmail.com> References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> <77369c850512041626t65d0b5ackaa03d3c99461322b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43938B96.7070002@comcast.net> Stephen Shafer wrote: >>>>Incidentally, I thought of another point: When Sethra teleports >>>>Aliera, note that there is indeed a rather unfortunate side-effect to >>>>Aliera's soul. Perhaps, maybe, because of Sethra's undead state? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Interesting notion, although Sethra herself seems to imply that it was >>>more the impending explosion of amorphia that put her off saving Aliera >>>than anything else. Also, remember those countless teleports she did >>>bewteen Dzur Mountain and Castle Black right after the ninth (or Tenth) >>>Seige of Dzur Mountain... With no untoward after effects. >>> >>> >>Sethra teleported other people in addition to Aliera while the amorphia >> >> >was preparing to explode. Think about our much vaunted captain of the >Pheonix Guards... > > > Actually, it was Adron (with the help of the Orb) that took care of getting Khaavren and company to safety. Meanwhile, Sethra was saving the Orb itself, Aliera, and presumably Mario. This is all according to Paarfi's version of events, anyway. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Dec 4 17:11:23 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 17:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Is it not the case that StY is reputed to have some expertise in scanning? Note that the spell might be easily performed by Paarfi but actually sorting out the results might involve calling a lot of library methods from the Orb and pulling up databanks of typical and atypical genomes. This might be a drawn-out process involving tweaking of parameters. And according to my Yendi cuckoo theory it might be non-trivial to distinguish a Dragonish Yendi changeling from the real thing compared to doing a simple House-A-or-B separation. Incidentally, I wonder if there are any sex-linked House traits. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 18:49:05 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 18:49:05 -0800 Subject: Tem vs. Tem Message-ID: <4393AAA1.1090800@comcast.net> I just recently noticed (while working on the Wikicity) that there are apparently two characters in the Dragaera books named "Tem". One is a Teckla servant of Pel in /Paths of the Dead/. The other is the Teckla villager living in Smallcliff during the events of /Athyra/. Since both these characters are Teckla, the obvious quesiton is; are these, in fact, the same person? Since Pel's servant's age is given at 500-550 years, it's quite likely he's still alive 250 or so years later (the time of Athyra). Of course, a name as simple as "Tem" is likely to be fairly common, so it could be just a coincidence. Still, there are relatively few cases of identical names in Dragaera (notable exceptions include "Ibronka" (known to be at least 3 different characters) and "Ori" (which denotes both a Dragon and yet another Teckla resident of Smallcliff)). Anyone care to lay odds on this one? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 19:53:05 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:53:05 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans Message-ID: <4393B9A1.6070302@comcast.net> Fwd to list At 02:23 PM 12/4/2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >> I don't think Sethra would want to be Warlord except in extraordinary >> circumstances. She is better off outside the normal political >> structure. > > > Under what circumstances would Sethra *want* to be Warlord? > > Simple. When it would most benefit the Empire for her to hold the > position, rather than another. > > While Sethra Lavode seems to be without ambition of her own, my > thought is that her ambitions may simply be more far-sighted than > anyone else's.(Which would sort of make sense, given her longevity). > This is not to say she is selfless, but it might often seem that way > to the mere mortals around her who don't share her perspective. Sethra is unique, to start with. She lived an order of magnitude longer than any other Dragaeran, to start with (well, maybe an order of magnitude in base 5 or 6), then returned as undead because whatever the gods wanted of her wasn't yet complete. If there was ever a paradox in a conundrum in an enigma wrapped in a riddle, it is Sethra Lavode. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 5 00:51:43 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 8:51:43 +0000 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans Message-ID: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> >Meanwhile, Sethra was saving the Orb itself, Aliera, and >presumably Mario. This is all according to Paarfi's version >of events, anyway. >Majikjon Aside from Vlad's implied belief that he is still around, do we have any text ev that Mario survived the explosion and the interregnum? Mark ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From scs at di.org Sun Dec 4 23:18:49 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 02:18:49 -0500 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> References: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20051205071849.GA29059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 08:51:43AM +0000, mtiller at ntlworld.com wrote: > > Aside from Vlad's implied belief that he is still around, do we have > any text ev that Mario survived the explosion and the interregnum? If we count email from Steve Brust to this list, yes. I believe that Steve has said explicitly here that Mario and Aliera have seen each other recently. Steve "deliberate ambiguities above" Simmons From stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net Mon Dec 5 04:50:30 2005 From: stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net (Rebecca Harbison) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:50:30 -0500 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <20051205071849.GA29059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> <20051205071849.GA29059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <97E11735-65CD-4B27-95B6-41A7024FCD4F@whimsical-dragon.net> Now I want to lookup the exact wording to see if he left a loophole or something that would allow reincarnation or something tricksy like that. Because I just don't trust certainties from authors. -- Rebecca On Dec 5, 2005, at 2:18 AM, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 08:51:43AM +0000, mtiller at ntlworld.com wrote: >> >> Aside from Vlad's implied belief that he is still around, do we have >> any text ev that Mario survived the explosion and the interregnum? > > If we count email from Steve Brust to this list, yes. I believe that > Steve has said explicitly here that Mario and Aliera have seen each > other recently. > > Steve "deliberate ambiguities above" Simmons > listinfo/dragaera > > From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Dec 5 05:08:33 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:08:33 -0500 Subject: the Yendi Conspiracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43943BD1.40403@email.ers.usda.gov> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >In order to launch a conquest, what you need to do is: > >(a) convince those that like to fight that there will be plenty of fighting. >(b) convince those that like profit that there will be plenty of loot. >(c) convince anyone not in the above that the target of the conquest >is a terrible threat. >(d) convince everyone that anyone who is skeptical about the venture >is a traitor, or just too weak. > > > That's what you need to do on Earth. It doesn't necessarily follow that that's what you need to do in the Dragaeraverse. Snarkhunter From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Dec 5 05:41:48 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 05:41:48 -0800 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> References: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4394439C.8070707@comcast.net> mtiller at ntlworld.com wrote: >Aside from Vlad's implied belief that he is still around, do we have any text ev that Mario survived the explosion and the interregnum? > >Mark > > > Well, there's also The Demon's belief that he's still alive, as well as Cawti's belief that he's still alive, as well as Teldra's belief he's still alive, as well as Morrolan's familiarity with him (in and of itself telling, since if Mario had died during Adron's Disaster, he'd have been dead before Morrolan was even born). Especially in The Demon's case, I'd say this is pretty convincing, since he's in a position to know. Sethra (er, Kiera) also makes comments in "Orca" that indicate she believes Mario is still current and active--and she's REALLY in a position to know if he survived the disaster. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 07:32:01 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:32:01 -0700 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <4394439C.8070707@comcast.net> References: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> <4394439C.8070707@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512050732q15d5b18fm391d0695cff7d597@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > ... also makes comments in ... that indicate she > believes Mario is still current and active Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has read all of the books. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 5 07:50:18 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:50:18 -0800 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans Message-ID: >On 12/5/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> ... also makes comments in ... that indicate she >> believes Mario is still current and active > > >Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has >read all of the books. > >Max Whoops. You're absolutely right. I spend so much time over on the wikicity (where spolier warnings aren't typically used) that I forget the rules are a bit different over here. I will endeavor to be more cautious in the future. Majikjon From kdvorenkamp at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 08:30:58 2005 From: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com (Kendra Vorenkamp) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:30:58 -0500 Subject: Tem vs. Tem In-Reply-To: <4393AAA1.1090800@comcast.net> References: <4393AAA1.1090800@comcast.net> Message-ID: <38aa89f30512050830x535273ccx73891b45080d1e21@mail.gmail.com> I personally think that they are different characters. "Tem" seems to be a pretty common name, especially for a teckla. Just my two cents. -Kendra On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > I just recently noticed (while working on the Wikicity) that there are > apparently two characters in the Dragaera books named "Tem". > > One is a Teckla servant of Pel in /Paths of the Dead/. The other is the > Teckla villager living in Smallcliff during the events of /Athyra/. > > Since both these characters are Teckla, the obvious quesiton is; are > these, in fact, the same person? > > Since Pel's servant's age is given at 500-550 years, it's quite likely > he's still alive 250 or so years later (the time of Athyra). > > Of course, a name as simple as "Tem" is likely to be fairly common, so > it could be just a coincidence. Still, there are relatively few cases of > identical names in Dragaera (notable exceptions include "Ibronka" (known > to be at least 3 different characters) and "Ori" (which denotes both a > Dragon and yet another Teckla resident of Smallcliff)). > > Anyone care to lay odds on this one? > > Majikjon > -- When we long for a life with no difficulties, remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary winds, and diamonds are made under pressure. - Peter Marshall From dougcroteau at comcast.net Mon Dec 5 08:35:44 2005 From: dougcroteau at comcast.net (Doug Croteau) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:35:44 -0500 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans References: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com><4394439C.8070707@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512050732q15d5b18fm391d0695cff7d597@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> >> >> ... also makes comments in ... that indicate she >> believes Mario is still current and active >Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has >read all of the books. Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the books and are impatiently waiting for the next? From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 09:10:20 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:10:20 -0700 Subject: Tem vs. Tem In-Reply-To: <4393AAA1.1090800@comcast.net> References: <4393AAA1.1090800@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512050910l62e562ebve4b02f99211b2904@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Since both these characters are Teckla, the obvious quesiton is; are > these, in fact, the same person? > My guess is: not yet, but they could be if it turns out to be Cool. I don't think there was originally a Cool idea behind it, but hey, what do I know? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Mon Dec 5 09:16:05 2005 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:16:05 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> References: <20051205085143.IIQN16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> <4394439C.8070707@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512050732q15d5b18fm391d0695cff7d597@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205120057.00bce4e8@camail.harvard.edu> At 11:35 AM 12/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>>[Spoiler] that indicate she believes Mario is still current and active > >>Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has >>read all of the books. > >Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can >you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the >books and are impatiently waiting for the next? Next month will be the 10th anniversary of the release of Orca and I think it might be time to let that particular spoiler go. The Issola spoiler is 4 years old this month (3 years if you want to count from the paperback publication) so I don't mind hanging on to that one, for now. Yes, I do know that there are some people on this list who haven't read all of the books, but I still think it's a bit silly for us to still be using a spoiler-warning for a book that's 10 years old on a list designed to discuss these books. If this was a general-purpose, SF mailing-list, then sure. But the Orca spoiler is central to many of the discussion on this list, as I suspect the Issola spoiler will be when Dzur comes out. Can we put something in the sign-up email that says something to the effect of, this mailing is for the discussion of Steven Brust's Dragaera novels, be warned that you might see spoilers if you haven't read them all yet. Charley Sumner An open mind is one thing, letting geese run around in there is completely different. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Dec 5 09:27:17 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:27:17 +0100 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> Message-ID: "Doug Croteau" wrote: >>>... also makes comments in ... that indicate she >>>believes Mario is still current and active > > >>Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has >>read all of the books. > > >Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can >you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the >books and are impatiently waiting for the next? > I haven't read all Dragaeran books, as Brokedown Palace seems to be out of print. I'd like to avoid having that spoiled, for if/when I can put my grubby little hands on it. From pulmon at mac.com Mon Dec 5 09:27:15 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:27:15 -0500 Subject: Tem vs. Tem In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512050910l62e562ebve4b02f99211b2904@mail.gmail.com> References: <4393AAA1.1090800@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512050910l62e562ebve4b02f99211b2904@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps the real significance is that Pel is the Prime Minister Pro Tem... On Dec 5, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> Since both these characters are Teckla, the obvious quesiton is; are >> these, in fact, the same person? >> > > My guess is: not yet, but they could be if it turns out to be Cool. > I don't > think there was originally a Cool idea behind it, but hey, what do > I know? > > Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > listinfo/dragaera From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 5 09:32:43 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I haven't read all Dragaeran books, as Brokedown Palace seems to be out of > print. I'd like to avoid having that spoiled, for if/when I can put my > grubby little hands on it. There are five copies available at half.com for under $2.51 plus shipping... From scs at di.org Mon Dec 5 03:27:32 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 06:27:32 -0500 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> References: <2ddbda5f0512050732q15d5b18fm391d0695cff7d597@mail.gmail.com> <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> Message-ID: <20051205112732.GB31214@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 11:35:44AM -0500, Doug Croteau wrote: > >>... also makes comments in ... that indicate she > >>believes Mario is still current and active > > >Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has > >read all of the books. > > Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can > you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the > books and are impatiently waiting for the next? I'm with Doug on this one. IMHO the only reasonable time we should consider spoilers is from publication of a new hardback until a month or so after publication of the pb. From that point forward, anything in the book should be fair game. -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 5 09:56:19 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:56:19 -0800 Subject: Tem vs. Tem, Dortmund vs. Dortmund (Possible minor PotD/Dragon Spoliers) Message-ID: >On 12/4/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> Since both these characters are Teckla, the obvious quesiton is; are >> these, in fact, the same person? >> > >My guess is: not yet, but they could be if it turns out to be Cool. I don't >think there was originally a Cool idea behind it, but hey, what do I know? > >Max Wilson Okay, here's another one that I think might be pretty cool; during Ibronka's journey to Adrilankha in PotD, she has a dalliance with a certain corporal named Dortmund. Apparently a Dragon, and a career soldier in Kana's army. Is this possibly the same Dortmund as we meet in Cropper Company during /Dragon/? Both are career military Dragonlords of low rank. Both have a significant interest in the ladies. It seems quite possible to me that this could be one character. To the left, of course, Dortmund might be as common a name among Dragons as Tem is among Teckla, and certainly an interest in the ladies is something that all career soldiers are likely to have to a greater or lesser degree (the male ones, anyway). Also, the Dortmund of Cropper Company doesn't seem like the type to buck for corporal--but this might be due to some earlier life experience (like a humiliation encountered while serving in Kana's army, maybe?). This one seems like it would be pretty Cool. Majikjon From carpovita at earthlink.net Mon Dec 5 09:59:20 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:59:20 -0700 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205120057.00bce4e8@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> umm so what you are telling us is that you are ok with being the guy in line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 year old that Aniken is Darth Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke Skywalker. I don't think that the fact that I have known a spoiler for 10 years makes it any less a spoiler for the audience yet to read the various pieces out there. Heck at this point I'd think it's safe to assume that there were children being born when Orca was released that may, in 6 years or so, get to that book. I think it'd be nice for us to leave them the magic that we all came to on our own. Or one more view on it - Had someone spoiled the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings for you before you read them? Did you know Gandalf would die, or that he'd get better? I didn't and I am damn thankful that there was not, when I first read those books, (books that were 30 years old at that point) someone at my side, or in my e-mail telling me about pivotal plot points. Just my views, Rion -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Charles Sumner Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:16 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) At 11:35 AM 12/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>>[Spoiler] that indicate she believes Mario is still current and active > >>Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has >>read all of the books. > >Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can >you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the >books and are impatiently waiting for the next? Next month will be the 10th anniversary of the release of Orca and I think it might be time to let that particular spoiler go. The Issola spoiler is 4 years old this month (3 years if you want to count from the paperback publication) so I don't mind hanging on to that one, for now. Yes, I do know that there are some people on this list who haven't read all of the books, but I still think it's a bit silly for us to still be using a spoiler-warning for a book that's 10 years old on a list designed to discuss these books. If this was a general-purpose, SF mailing-list, then sure. But the Orca spoiler is central to many of the discussion on this list, as I suspect the Issola spoiler will be when Dzur comes out. Can we put something in the sign-up email that says something to the effect of, this mailing is for the discussion of Steven Brust's Dragaera novels, be warned that you might see spoilers if you haven't read them all yet. Charley Sumner An open mind is one thing, letting geese run around in there is completely different. From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Mon Dec 5 10:06:52 2005 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:06:52 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario isAlive?...) In-Reply-To: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <20051205130652114.00000002372@Z7581> Gandalf dies? **-----Original Message----- **From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info **[mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On **Behalf Of Rion Bergquist **Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 12:59 PM **To: 'Charles Sumner'; dragaera at dragaera.info **Subject: RE: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it **go? (was Re: Proof Mario isAlive?...) ** **umm so what you are telling us is that you are **ok with being the guy in **line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 **year old that Aniken is Darth **Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke **Skywalker. ** **I don't think that the fact that I have known a **spoiler for 10 years makes **it any less a spoiler for the audience yet to **read the various pieces out **there. Heck at this point I'd think it's safe **to assume that there were **children being born when Orca was released that **may, in 6 years or so, get **to that book. I think it'd be nice for us to **leave them the magic that we **all came to on our own. ** **Or one more view on it - Had someone spoiled the **Hobbit or the Lord of the **Rings for you before you read them? Did you **know Gandalf would die, or that **he'd get better? I didn't and I am damn **thankful that there was not, when I **first read those books, (books that were 30 **years old at that point) someone **at my side, or in my e-mail telling me about **pivotal plot points. ** **Just my views, **Rion ** ** **-----Original Message----- **From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info **[mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf **Of Charles Sumner **Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:16 AM **To: dragaera at dragaera.info **Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? **(was Re: Proof Mario is **Alive?...) ** ** **At 11:35 AM 12/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: **>>>[Spoiler] that indicate she believes Mario is **still current and active **> **>>Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't **think everyone on the list has **>>read all of the books. **> **>Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total **Brust addiction? How can **>you have considered getting on this list until **you have read all of the **>books and are impatiently waiting for the next? ** **Next month will be the 10th anniversary of the **release of Orca and I think **it might be time to let that particular spoiler **go. The Issola spoiler is **4 years old this month (3 years if you want to **count from the paperback **publication) so I don't mind hanging on to that **one, for now. ** **Yes, I do know that there are some people on **this list who haven't read all **of the books, but I still think it's a bit silly **for us to still be using a **spoiler-warning for a book that's 10 years old **on a list designed to **discuss these books. If this was a general- **purpose, SF mailing-list, then **sure. But the Orca spoiler is central to many **of the discussion on this **list, as I suspect the Issola spoiler will be **when Dzur comes out. ** **Can we put something in the sign-up email that **says something to the effect **of, this mailing is for the discussion of Steven **Brust's Dragaera novels, **be warned that you might see spoilers if you **haven't read them all yet. ** ** **Charley Sumner ** **An open mind is one thing, letting geese run **around in there is completely **different. ** ** **_______________________________________________ **Dragaera mailing list **Dragaera at dragaera.info **http://dragaera.info, **http://lists.dd-b.net/cgi- **bin/mailman/listinfo/dragaera ** **_______________________________________________ **Dragaera mailing list **Dragaera at dragaera.info **http://dragaera.info, http://lists.dd-b.net/cgi- **bin/mailman/listinfo/dragaera From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 5 10:25:33 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:25:33 -0700 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario isAlive?...) References: <20051205130652114.00000002372@Z7581> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vanskyock" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: RE: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario isAlive?...) > Gandalf dies? > Yeah, but Aliera revivifed him. Sethra would have, but the Jenoine had her occupied at the time. Jeff From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Dec 5 10:40:22 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:40:22 -0800 Subject: Tem vs. Tem, Dortmund vs. Dortmund (Possible minor PotD/Dragon Spoliers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <362a01c5f9cb$59b1d0b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > Is this possibly the same Dortmund as we meet in Cropper > Company during > /Dragon/? > > I never thought there was any question that it was the same Dortmond. His defining features are a satisfaction with his current station and a proclivity for finding ways to make military life as comfortable as it could possibly be. I saw his inclusion as a humorous connection between the Paarfiad and the Vladiad. From steve at romlin.com Mon Dec 5 10:44:59 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:44:59 +0100 Subject: Spoiler proposal Message-ID: > > I haven't read all Dragaeran books, as Brokedown Palace seems to be out of > print. I'd like to avoid having that spoiled, for if/when I can put my > grubby little hands on it. I'm with Martin on this, as I suspect many may be. I kind of agree that anyone on a Dragaera mailing list is at least sufficiently addicted to have read all the easily-available books released at least a couple years ago. I know I have. But in the case of Brokedown Palace, I can't easily get a copy (here in Sweden), so I'm shutting my eyes when I see a Fenarian name I don't recognize. I actually stopped adding to the wikicity when spoilers for BP began appearing all over it. The half.com solution is appealing, but that $2.51 will quickly become $20.51 once I ship to Sweden. Maybe for Xmas. My own proposed compromise probably makes sense only to me, but I like the idea of a general spoiler warning, with BP and any other out-of-print books there may be as exceptions, which should be clearly marked and set aside as spoilers, since they're not likely to be handy to everyone. Completely off-topic: I was on a business trip last week to Slovakia, and twice met Hungarian chicks I wanted to impress. Both times I found I knew a few words, and silently thanked Steve. From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Mon Dec 5 10:50:19 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:50:19 -0500 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> Message-ID: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 12/05/2005 11:35:44 AM: > > >> > >> ... also makes comments in ... that indicate she > >> believes Mario is still current and active > > > >Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has > >read all of the books. > > > Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can you > have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the books > and are impatiently waiting for the next? > oh, i don't know - i signed up for it after reading my first book (issola). of course, i *was* thoroughly addicted at that point. (grin) From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Mon Dec 5 10:53:39 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:53:39 -0500 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 12/05/2005 12:32:43 PM: > > I haven't read all Dragaeran books, as Brokedown Palace seems to be out of > > print. I'd like to avoid having that spoiled, for if/when I can put my > > grubby little hands on it. > > There are five copies available at half.com for under $2.51 plus > shipping... there are also 21 copies available through barnes and noble's used book sellers list. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Dec 5 10:59:23 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:59:23 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:59:20 MST." <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <200512051859.jB5IxOcW017026@vice-grips.mit.edu> Is there anyone on this list who hadn't read already Orca when they first joined (or within a year of it being published, whichever came first)? > umm so what you are telling us is that you are ok with being the guy in > line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 year old that Aniken is Darth > Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke Skywalker. > > I don't think that the fact that I have known a spoiler for 10 years makes > it any less a spoiler for the audience yet to read the various pieces out > there. Heck at this point I'd think it's safe to assume that there were > children being born when Orca was released that may, in 6 years or so, get > to that book. I think it'd be nice for us to leave them the magic that we > all came to on our own. > > Or one more view on it - Had someone spoiled the Hobbit or the Lord of the > Rings for you before you read them? Did you know Gandalf would die, or that > he'd get better? I didn't and I am damn thankful that there was not, when I > first read those books, (books that were 30 years old at that point) someone > at my side, or in my e-mail telling me about pivotal plot points. > > Just my views, > Rion > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Charles Sumner > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:16 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is > Alive?...) > > > At 11:35 AM 12/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >>>[Spoiler] that indicate she believes Mario is still current and active > > > >>Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has > >>read all of the books. > > > >Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can > >you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the > >books and are impatiently waiting for the next? > > Next month will be the 10th anniversary of the release of Orca and I think > it might be time to let that particular spoiler go. The Issola spoiler is > 4 years old this month (3 years if you want to count from the paperback > publication) so I don't mind hanging on to that one, for now. > > Yes, I do know that there are some people on this list who haven't read all > of the books, but I still think it's a bit silly for us to still be using a > spoiler-warning for a book that's 10 years old on a list designed to > discuss these books. If this was a general-purpose, SF mailing-list, then > sure. But the Orca spoiler is central to many of the discussion on this > list, as I suspect the Issola spoiler will be when Dzur comes out. > > Can we put something in the sign-up email that says something to the effect > of, this mailing is for the discussion of Steven Brust's Dragaera novels, > be warned that you might see spoilers if you haven't read them all yet. > > > Charley Sumner > > An open mind is one thing, letting geese run around in there is completely > different. > > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 5 10:59:44 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:59:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tem vs. Tem, Dortmund vs. Dortmund (Possible minor PotD/Dragon Spoliers) In-Reply-To: <362a01c5f9cb$59b1d0b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <362a01c5f9cb$59b1d0b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > I saw his inclusion as a humorous connection between the Paarfiad and > the Vladiad. And see the archives of the day for less elegant analysis. From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Mon Dec 5 11:01:05 2005 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:01:05 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <200512051859.jB5IxOcW017026@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 12/05/2005 01:59:23 PM: > > Is there anyone on this list who hadn't read already Orca when they first > joined (or within a year of it being published, whichever came first)? > > yes =) From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Dec 5 11:08:32 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:08:32 +0100 Subject: Spoiler proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Rapaport wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Spoiler proposal >Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:44:59 +0100 > > > > > I haven't read all Dragaeran books, as Brokedown Palace seems to be out >of > > print. I'd like to avoid having that spoiled, for if/when I can put my > > grubby little hands on it. > > > >I'm with Martin on this, as I suspect many may be. I kind of agree that >anyone on a Dragaera mailing list is at least sufficiently addicted to have >read all the easily-available books released at least a couple years ago. I >know I have. But in the case of Brokedown Palace, I can't easily get a >copy >(here in Sweden), so I'm shutting my eyes when I see a Fenarian name I >don't >recognize. I actually stopped adding to the wikicity when spoilers for BP >began appearing all over it. > >The half.com solution is appealing, but that $2.51 will quickly become >$20.51 once I ship to Sweden. Maybe for Xmas. > >My own proposed compromise probably makes sense only to me, but I like the >idea of a general spoiler warning, with BP and any other out-of-print books >there may be as exceptions, which should be clearly marked and set aside as >spoilers, since they're not likely to be handy to everyone. > >Completely off-topic: I was on a business trip last week to Slovakia, and >twice met Hungarian chicks I wanted to impress. Both times I found I knew >a >few words, and silently thanked Steve. Thanks for all used book tips people, but as it happens I'm from Sweden too and have the same "+ p & p" problem. /That other Swedish guy with a non-typical Swedish name. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 11:09:14 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:09:14 -0700 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <200512051859.jB5IxOcW017026@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> <200512051859.jB5IxOcW017026@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512051109k7205061ew351ad34a5fcf8bd8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > Is there anyone on this list who hadn't read already Orca when they first > joined (or within a year of it being published, whichever came first)? > Me, I think. At least I remember reading through either the list mail or maybe some Usenet archives with cryptic references to and Devera, shapeshifting, etc., things that didn't make sense until later after I'd read Orca. I personally am the sort of person who will sometimes skip to the back of a book, so I don't always mind spoilers, but I'm also proof that people can start searching for Dragaera info before having read all of the books. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 11:14:39 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:14:39 -0700 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512051109k7205061ew351ad34a5fcf8bd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> <200512051859.jB5IxOcW017026@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0512051109k7205061ew351ad34a5fcf8bd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512051114h6837c2d3nf7133a1f965ea950@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > Me, I think. At least I remember reading through either the list mail or > maybe some Usenet archives with cryptic references to and Devera, > shapeshifting, etc., things that didn't make sense until later after I'd > read Orca. I personally am the sort of person who will sometimes skip to the > back of a book, so I don't always mind spoilers, but I'm also proof that > people can start searching for Dragaera info before having read all of the > books. > By the way, I note that there are a lot of things I haven't ever thought of spoiler-ing. E.g. that and separate in /Phoenix/, that Vlad in the same novel kills and is outlawed by , that exists even though Vlad doesn't know it yet... it's just that the is so flabberghasting that I had to read it twice before I understood what was going on, so it has a special place in my heart as something that *ought* to be a shock. Some of the Issola spoilers are big, too. Maybe the fate of should be guarded, too, although honestly the only really big shocks in the series come in Orca, Issola, and Dzur. Especially when the Jhereg assassinate Cawti. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Mon Dec 5 11:15:17 2005 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:15:17 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205120057.00bce4e8@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205134331.02565e10@camail.harvard.edu> At 10:59 AM 12/5/2005 -0700, you wrote: >umm so what you are telling us is that you are ok with being the guy in >line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 year old that Aniken is Darth >Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke Skywalker. No, I wouldn't spoil a movie to a kid that's in line to see it. But remember that part of my opinion on this issue is the venue where the spoiler discussion is taking place. I'd get pissed if someone gave away the ending of any movie to people about to see it. However, I wouldn't have a problem with someone not putting spoiler warnings on "Aniken is Darth Vader" comments posted to a Star Wars discussion group. I think part of someone's participation in a discussion group is the implicit understanding that they're fairly familiar with the material. If I met someone who hadn't read the Vlad books yet, I wouldn't tell them the Orca or Issloa spoilers, but I'd also tell them that they should probably read the books before discussing them on this mailing list. Aside, I don't think that's the best counter-example as Lucas use the Darth Vader image as Ani's shadow in the posters for Episode I. and the wikipedia article on Aniken/Darth doesn't feel any need to spoiler protect it . Your Lord of the Rings example below is better, ad I comment more on that. >I don't think that the fact that I have known a spoiler for 10 years makes >it any less a spoiler for the audience yet to read the various pieces out >there. Heck at this point I'd think it's safe to assume that there were >children being born when Orca was released that may, in 6 years or so, get >to that book. I think it'd be nice for us to leave them the magic that we >all came to on our own. True, but again, it's the venue. I'm not talking about going out and shouting the Orca spoiler from the rooftops, I'm talking about not spoiler-protecting it in a place where people do nothing but talk about these books. And if your PoV is valid, why are we only protecting the Orca and Issola spoilers. Most posts to this list contain some spoiler elements to some of the books, whether it's a reference to Adron's Disaster, Cawti and Vlad's relationship, or the recent discussion about Sethra the Younger's motives in Yendi (which are a significant spoiler to what's going on in that book if you haven't read it). Who polices the importance of spoilers and says that these are the one's we have to protect and these other ones's aren't. Isn't everything on this list a spoiler to one degree or another. >Or one more view on it - Had someone spoiled the Hobbit or the Lord of the >Rings for you before you read them? Did you know Gandalf would die, or that >he'd get better? I didn't and I am damn thankful that there was not, when I >first read those books, (books that were 30 years old at that point) someone >at my side, or in my e-mail telling me about pivotal plot points. A better example. However, yes, I did know that Gandalf died and came back before I read the trilogy. It didn't ruin my enjoyment of them, and I wasn't particularly bitter at having known it. [Interestingly, my wife read the books after seeing the first film and while she did not know that Gandalf was coming back, it didn't surprise her at all as she'd read enough other fantasy fiction to recognize the conventions of the genre]. But again, I wouldn't spoil LotR to someone at the movie theater or in a bookstore thinking about picking them up, but I'd have no problem with people not putting a spoiler warning on Gandalf's death & rebirth in a LotR discussion group. Now if I hadn't read LotR yet, how would you feel about having just "spoiled" it for me by mentioning that in a non-Tolkein group? To be fair, I'll mention a place where I did get annoyed at this. I had the ending of The Sixth Sense spoiled for me by one of the comic-reporters on The Daily Show less than a year after the movie's release. I still enjoyed the film, but felt that it was inappropriate of them do reveal the big spoiler of the movie in a public forum so soon after it's release. And another example of where I think this is silly. I remember having this same discussion 13 years ago on the rec.tv.prisoner newsgroup when people were putting spoiler warning about the final episode of The Prisoner, which had then aired 25 years previously, on a newsgroup where people did nothing but discuss that show. >Just my views, >Rion And mine are mine. It's not that I don't want to protect good reveals / spoilers from novice eyes, it's just that I think this mailing list isn't meant for people who haven't read most of the books. Charley >-----Original Message----- >From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >[mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Charles Sumner >Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:16 AM >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is >Alive?...) > > >At 11:35 AM 12/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >>>[Spoiler] that indicate she believes Mario is still current and active > > > >>Shouldn't we "spoiler" these bits? I don't think everyone on the list has > >>read all of the books. > > > >Isn't the mailing list the final stage of total Brust addiction? How can > >you have considered getting on this list until you have read all of the > >books and are impatiently waiting for the next? > >Next month will be the 10th anniversary of the release of Orca and I think >it might be time to let that particular spoiler go. The Issola spoiler is >4 years old this month (3 years if you want to count from the paperback >publication) so I don't mind hanging on to that one, for now. > >Yes, I do know that there are some people on this list who haven't read all >of the books, but I still think it's a bit silly for us to still be using a >spoiler-warning for a book that's 10 years old on a list designed to >discuss these books. If this was a general-purpose, SF mailing-list, then >sure. But the Orca spoiler is central to many of the discussion on this >list, as I suspect the Issola spoiler will be when Dzur comes out. > >Can we put something in the sign-up email that says something to the effect >of, this mailing is for the discussion of Steven Brust's Dragaera novels, >be warned that you might see spoilers if you haven't read them all yet. > > >Charley Sumner > >An open mind is one thing, letting geese run around in there is completely >different. > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 5 11:16:48 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:16:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Thanks for all used book tips people, but as it happens I'm from Sweden too > and > have the same "+ p & p" problem. > > /That other Swedish guy with a non-typical Swedish name. Sounds like you could split a shipment to one of you and save money (assuming the cost is not linear in weight for low weights). From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Mon Dec 5 11:24:38 2005 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:24:38 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512051114h6837c2d3nf7133a1f965ea950@mail.gmail.co m> References: <2ddbda5f0512051109k7205061ew351ad34a5fcf8bd8@mail.gmail.com> <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> <200512051859.jB5IxOcW017026@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0512051109k7205061ew351ad34a5fcf8bd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205141802.0259f668@camail.harvard.edu> At 12:14 PM 12/5/2005 -0700, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >it's just that >the is so flabberghasting that I had to read it twice >before I understood what was going on, so it has a special place in my heart >as something that *ought* to be a shock. What was so shocking about the fact that Kragar is actually a killer whale? I really don't see why we need to keep spoiler protecting it. C "In my fantasy world, we have pie." http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/ From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Mon Dec 5 11:47:53 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:47:53 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:01:05 -0500, Carla Hunt wrote: > dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 12/05/2005 01:59:23 PM: > >> >> Is there anyone on this list who hadn't read already Orca when they > first >> joined (or within a year of it being published, whichever came first)? >> >> > > yes =) Seconded. Though, I read it soon after joining, fortunately before any spoiling discussions took place. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 5 12:06:13 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:06:13 -0800 Subject: Spoiler proposal Message-ID: >I'm with Martin on this, as I suspect many may be. I kind of agree that >anyone on a Dragaera mailing list is at least sufficiently addicted to have >read all the easily-available books released at least a couple years ago. I >know I have. But in the case of Brokedown Palace, I can't easily get a copy >(here in Sweden), so I'm shutting my eyes when I see a Fenarian name I don't >recognize. I actually stopped adding to the wikicity when spoilers for BP >began appearing all over it. > So THAT'S where you went. Sorry, Steve, I wouldn't have added so much BP stuff to the wiki if I'd known it would drive you away. >The half.com solution is appealing, but that $2.51 will quickly become >$20.51 once I ship to Sweden. Maybe for Xmas. Maybe we should get SKZB to record a book-on-tape version (in mp3 format) that you could just download? ;-) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 5 12:16:13 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:16:13 -0800 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario isAlive?...) Message-ID: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brian Vanskyock" >To: "Dragaera" >Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:06 AM >Subject: RE: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario >isAlive?...) > > >> Gandalf dies? >> >Yeah, but Aliera revivifed him. Sethra would have, but the Jenoine had her >occupied at the time. > >Jeff So, if I've got this right, Sethra Lavode (Secretly Anakin's father), sent the Kwisatz Haderach to Endor to conquer the Ewoks using the Morganti Lightsaber of Kieron the Conquerer, but was thwarted by Gandalf, who slew the Balrog that Jabba the Hutt keeps in a pit below his throne, then gave the Imperial Orb to Frodo to carry to the Jenoine's world, and throw it into a river of amorphia, thus saving all of the galaxy from the Imperial Warlord, Darth Vader, who,in actuality, is secretly Mario. Is that it? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 5 12:26:35 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:26:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans (fwd) Message-ID: Dear Bouncing Powers-That-Be, Should I be concerned about having gotten only one copy of the below? Regards. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:53:39 -0500 From: Carla Hunt To: Philip Hart Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info, dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 12/05/2005 12:32:43 PM: > > I haven't read all Dragaeran books, as Brokedown Palace seems to be out of > > print. I'd like to avoid having that spoiled, for if/when I can put my > > grubby little hands on it. > > There are five copies available at half.com for under $2.51 plus > shipping... there are also 21 copies available through barnes and noble's used book sellers list. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 5 12:46:02 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:46:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> References: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Rion Bergquist wrote: > umm so what you are telling us is that you are ok with being the guy in > line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 year old that Aniken is Darth > Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke Skywalker. Ahh, my only happy memory of that movie. It was the 7-year-old's birthday and you should have seen his face. (My being 6'7" and costumed as Darth Vader might have had something to do with that.) From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:31:16 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:31:16 -0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: References: <43931FC7.6040507@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0512040950g35f8700bh737d178ed671d2fe@mail.gmail.com> <439355C4.6080201@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/4/05, Louis Eastman wrote: > Re: Jhereg. Kiera finds Vlad dead in a gutter, Sethra revives him. [Could you please trim unnecessary material, and post the reply after the text being replied to?] I grant that it *might* well be a counter-example. However, it's sufficiently brief that Vlad could be mistaken about who revivified him (eg, might have been the Necromancer rather than Sethra). In addition, there's the whole pre-Interregnum vs. post-Interregnum possibility that I added to me notion. Finally, there's quite a bit of stuff, especially in /Jhereg/ (and /Yendi/) that is contradictory, both internally, and with later material. Yet another notion that has now occurred to me is that when Sethra is in Dzur Mountain, she might have whatever resources she needs to counteract the whole undeadness problem with sorcery. From scs at di.org Mon Dec 5 08:05:11 2005 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:05:11 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) In-Reply-To: <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205120057.00bce4e8@camail.harvard.edu> <022f01c5f9c5$9ed61170$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <20051205160511.GA31909@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 10:59:20AM -0700, Rion Bergquist wrote: > umm so what you are telling us is that you are ok with being the guy in > line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 year old that Aniken is Darth > Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke Skywalker. Charles will no doubt speak for himself - but I'd say that arguement by analogy is always suspect. In this particular case, we've already established that most of the folks who come to this list do so on the assumption they've already read the books (or most of them) and want to tape a step further. So a better analogy would be the guy standing in line at the Star Wars convention talking to the 30-year-old guy and mentioning offhand what 99.9998% of the attendees know. :-) OK, I exaggerate a bit. But seriously, if we can't have freewheeling discussions about books that have been out for years, well, I'm votin' to find a better place to have those discussions. -- Realize that life is a situation comedy that will never be canceled. A laugh track has been provided, and the reason why we are put in the material world is to get more material. From "Swami Beyondananda's Guidelines for Enlightenment" From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:34:52 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:34:52 -0800 Subject: the Yendi Conspiracy In-Reply-To: <43943BD1.40403@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <43943BD1.40403@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On 12/5/05, Ken Koester wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >In order to launch a conquest, what you need to do is: > > > >(a) convince those that like to fight that there will be plenty of fighting. > >(b) convince those that like profit that there will be plenty of loot. > >(c) convince anyone not in the above that the target of the conquest > >is a terrible threat. > >(d) convince everyone that anyone who is skeptical about the venture > >is a traitor, or just too weak. > > > > > > > That's what you need to do on Earth. It doesn't necessarily follow that > that's what you need to do in the Dragaeraverse. > Bah. I'm generalizing from one universe, here. Besides, there's nothing to indicate that Dragaerans are somehow lacking in combatativeness, greed, xenophobia, and vulnerability to propaganda. Indeed, rather the opposite. From carpovita at earthlink.net Mon Dec 5 14:08:30 2005 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:08:30 -0700 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: ProofMario isAlive?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <023c01c5f9e8$6dc25b70$0200a8c0@Carpovita> hmmm... ever seen into the woods? perhaps you have hit on an idea for a wonderful play -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:16 PM To: Jeff G. Cc: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: ProofMario isAlive?...) >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brian Vanskyock" >To: "Dragaera" >Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:06 AM >Subject: RE: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario >isAlive?...) > > >> Gandalf dies? >> >Yeah, but Aliera revivifed him. Sethra would have, but the Jenoine had her >occupied at the time. > >Jeff So, if I've got this right, Sethra Lavode (Secretly Anakin's father), sent the Kwisatz Haderach to Endor to conquer the Ewoks using the Morganti Lightsaber of Kieron the Conquerer, but was thwarted by Gandalf, who slew the Balrog that Jabba the Hutt keeps in a pit below his throne, then gave the Imperial Orb to Frodo to carry to the Jenoine's world, and throw it into a river of amorphia, thus saving all of the galaxy from the Imperial Warlord, Darth Vader, who,in actuality, is secretly Mario. Is that it? Majikjon From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Mon Dec 5 14:10:17 2005 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:10:17 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20051205170935.025a62c0@camail.harvard.edu> At 12:46 PM 12/5/2005 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Rion Bergquist wrote: > > > umm so what you are telling us is that you are ok with being the guy in > > line to see Revenge of the Sith who tells a 7 year old that Aniken is Darth > > Vader and that his son in gonna be Luke Skywalker. Wait, I just read that again and realized that it's one of those "Brothers and sisters have I none" puzzles isn't it? So that means the 7 year old is Aniken, right? :-p "I think too much -- therefore I am mad!" http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 5 14:17:00 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:17:00 -0700 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: ProofMario isAlive?...) References: <023c01c5f9e8$6dc25b70$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rion Bergquist" To: ; "'Jeff G.'" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:08 PM Subject: RE: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: ProofMario isAlive?...) > hmmm... ever seen into the woods? > > perhaps you have hit on an idea for a wonderful play > As a matter of fact I have. One of my favorite stage shows. jeff From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 5 14:29:37 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:29:37 -0700 Subject: Proof Mario is Alive? was Sethra Lavode and gene-scans In-Reply-To: <20051205112732.GB31214@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <2ddbda5f0512050732q15d5b18fm391d0695cff7d597@mail.gmail.com> <002201c5f9b9$f0553870$6601a8c0@OLDDPC> <20051205112732.GB31214@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <4394BF51.2040101@brazee.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >I'm with Doug on this one. IMHO the only reasonable time we should >consider spoilers is from publication of a new hardback until a month >or so after publication of the pb. From that point forward, anything >in the book should be fair game. > > I'd consider waiting until paperback as well with spoilers. The rest, we can buy used. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 5 14:51:32 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:51:32 -0800 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: ProofMario isAlive?...) Message-ID: >hmmm... ever seen into the woods? > >perhaps you have hit on an idea for a wonderful play I've been in it, actually. (Played Jack) But I honestly wasn't thinking of that when I wrote my little quip. You're right tho, it is appropriate. Majikjon P.S. One of my favorite things about being in that show was that I provided a remote-controlled car to our prop-makers who converted it to a chicken for the scene where the Hen that lays golden eggs runs out on stage... As a result I'm the only person I know who owns a remote-controlled chicken. ;-) From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:22:52 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:22:52 -0700 Subject: the Yendi Conspiracy In-Reply-To: References: <43943BD1.40403@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512051722n39cbd7c1g549ea2581fdb6ec3@mail.gmail.com> On 12/5/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 12/5/05, Ken Koester wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > >In order to launch a conquest, what you need to do is: > > > > > >(a) convince those that like to fight that there will be plenty of > fighting. > > >(b) convince those that like profit that there will be plenty of loot. > > >(c) convince anyone not in the above that the target of the conquest > > >is a terrible threat. > > >(d) convince everyone that anyone who is skeptical about the venture > > >is a traitor, or just too weak. > > > > > > > > > > > That's what you need to do on Earth. It doesn't necessarily follow that > > that's what you need to do in the Dragaeraverse. > > > > Bah. I'm generalizing from one universe, here. > > Besides, there's nothing to indicate that Dragaerans are somehow > lacking in combatativeness, greed, xenophobia, and vulnerability to > propaganda. > Indeed, rather the opposite. > Perhaps it's as simple as shouting, "Hey, look! A war!" ObSF: "Look! It's the winged victory of Samothrace!" Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Dec 6 04:37:04 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:37:04 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario isAlive?...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439585F0.8090606@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >So, if I've got this right, Sethra Lavode (Secretly Anakin's father), sent >the Kwisatz Haderach to Endor to conquer the Ewoks using the Morganti >Lightsaber of Kieron the Conquerer, but was thwarted by Gandalf, who slew >the Balrog that Jabba the Hutt keeps in a pit below his throne, then gave >the Imperial Orb to Frodo to carry to the Jenoine's world, and throw it >into a river of amorphia, thus saving all of the galaxy from the Imperial >Warlord, Darth Vader, who,in actuality, is secretly Mario. > >Is that it? > > > Close. Sethra was actually working for the Second Foundation at the time, and they had a contract with the Arisians. The Moties were purely a red herring, though. What *I* can't work out is how Sethra found the time for a forbidden liaison with the Dominator (who also was secretly Anakin's father). Snarkhunter From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Tue Dec 6 05:57:56 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:57:56 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? In-Reply-To: <439585F0.8090606@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <439585F0.8090606@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:37:04 -0500, Ken Koester wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> >> >> So, if I've got this right, Sethra Lavode (Secretly Anakin's father), >> sent the Kwisatz Haderach to Endor to conquer the Ewoks using the >> Morganti Lightsaber of Kieron the Conquerer, but was thwarted by >> Gandalf, who slew the Balrog that Jabba the Hutt keeps in a pit below >> his throne, then gave the Imperial Orb to Frodo to carry to the >> Jenoine's world, and throw it into a river of amorphia, thus saving all >> of the galaxy from the Imperial Warlord, Darth Vader, who,in actuality, >> is secretly Mario. >> >> Is that it? > Close. Sethra was actually working for the Second Foundation at the > time, and they had a contract with the Arisians. The Moties were purely > a red herring, though. What *I* can't work out is how Sethra found the > time for a forbidden liaison with the Dominator (who also was secretly > Anakin's father). > > Snarkhunter She borrowed a time-turner from Hogwarts like any other good pupil. How else? Oh, or wasn't I supposed to mention that? -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Tue Dec 6 06:14:10 2005 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:14:10 -0500 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051206091410971.00000002372@Z7581> It's a sled!!! **-----Original Message----- **From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info **[mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On **Behalf Of Grady Brandt **Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 8:58 AM **To: 'Dragaera list' **Subject: Re: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it **go? ** **On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 07:37:04 -0500, Ken Koester ** wrote: ** **> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: **> **>> **>> **>> So, if I've got this right, Sethra Lavode **(Secretly Anakin's father), **>> sent the Kwisatz Haderach to Endor to conquer **the Ewoks using the **>> Morganti Lightsaber of Kieron the Conquerer, **but was thwarted by **>> Gandalf, who slew the Balrog that Jabba the **Hutt keeps in a pit below **>> his throne, then gave the Imperial Orb to **Frodo to carry to the **>> Jenoine's world, and throw it into a river of **amorphia, thus saving all **>> of the galaxy from the Imperial Warlord, **Darth Vader, who,in actuality, **>> is secretly Mario. **>> **>> Is that it? **> Close. Sethra was actually working for the **Second Foundation at the **> time, and they had a contract with the **Arisians. The Moties were purely **> a red herring, though. What *I* can't work **out is how Sethra found the **> time for a forbidden liaison with the **Dominator (who also was secretly **> Anakin's father). **> **> Snarkhunter ** **She borrowed a time-turner from Hogwarts like **any other good pupil. How **else? Oh, or wasn't I supposed to mention that? ** **-- **Everything works in Theory. ** **I need to learn how to program in Theory. **_______________________________________________ **Dragaera mailing list **Dragaera at dragaera.info **http://dragaera.info, http://lists.dd-b.net/cgi- **bin/mailman/listinfo/dragaera From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Dec 6 06:18:44 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 06:18:44 -0800 Subject: The Orca Spoiler - Time to let it go? (was Re: Proof Mario is Alive?...) Message-ID: >OK, I exaggerate a bit. But seriously, if we can't have freewheeling >discussions about books that have been out for years, well, I'm votin' >to find a better place to have those discussions. There's always the wikicity. Majikjon, (Lyorn Records Pimp) From casey at the-bat.net Tue Dec 6 09:48:53 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:48:53 -0500 Subject: Jhereg, and Vlad's history of revivification, a question for SKZB In-Reply-To: <439368D0.5080201@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00b501c5fa8d$52da2d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Majikjon writ (subject to liberal snippage): > but Vlad does say he's been killed "once" prior Once can mean 'only one time', but can also mean some (unspecified) time in the past. Which is to say the statements "I was killed once." and "I was killed more than once." are not mutually exclusive. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=once From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Dec 6 10:10:49 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:10:49 -0800 Subject: Jhereg, and Vlad's history of revivification, a question for SKZB Message-ID: >Once can mean 'only one time', but can also mean some (unspecified) time in >the past. Which is to say the statements "I was killed once." and "I was >killed more than once." are not mutually exclusive. > >http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=once Even more to the point, on re-reading the segment in questions, Vlad is actually describing a very specific circumstance in relation to the three major types of assassinations, so while he may have only been killed in the "first, cheapest, least permanent" manner only "once", he may well have been killed in one of the other manners as well, also. (Of course, this begs the question of how he survived these more permanent forms of death--but luckily, we, in fact, have the answers to that very question in /Yendi/.) So it would appear I have nearly resolved the apparent conflict myself. Just shows what you can do if you read carefully enough, I suppose. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 6 11:03:29 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:03:29 -0700 Subject: Jhereg, and Vlad's history of revivification, a question for SKZB References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Casey Rousseau" Cc: ; "'Dragaera Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:10 AM Subject: RE: Jhereg, and Vlad's history of revivification,a question for SKZB > >Once can mean 'only one time', but can also mean some (unspecified) time > in > >the past. Which is to say the statements "I was killed once." and "I was > >killed more than once." are not mutually exclusive. > > > >http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=once > > Even more to the point, on re-reading the segment in questions, Vlad is > actually describing a very specific circumstance in relation to the three > major types of assassinations, so while he may have only been killed in > the "first, cheapest, least permanent" manner only "once", he may well > have been killed in one of the other manners as well, also. (Of course, > this begs the question of how he survived these more permanent forms of > death--but luckily, we, in fact, have the answers to that very question in > /Yendi/.) > > So it would appear I have nearly resolved the apparent conflict myself. > Just shows what you can do if you read carefully enough, I suppose. > > Majikjon > > > Or he may have been bragging to the metal box. Jeff From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 6 16:36:57 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:36:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051207003657.14356.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (way behind and will never get caught up) Egad, that was lovely! Thank you, my lord. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 6 17:20:07 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:20:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: <20051207003657.14356.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051207003657.14356.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > (way behind and will never get caught up) More than spoiler flags, we need relevancy-to-Mark flags. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 18:13:57 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:13:57 -0700 Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: References: <20051207003657.14356.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512061813p1491c788y7c7235a47b034dc6@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/05, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > (way behind and will never get caught up) > > More than spoiler flags, we need relevancy-to-Mark flags. More's the pity, even if we started today, he wouldn't even know it until March or so. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 6 19:08:55 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512061813p1491c788y7c7235a47b034dc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051207003657.14356.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0512061813p1491c788y7c7235a47b034dc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/6/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > > > (way behind and will never get caught up) > > > > More than spoiler flags, we need relevancy-to-Mark flags. > > More's the pity, even if we started today, he wouldn't even know it > until March or so. We were planning on having you go through the archives and repost everything with flags attached to get around that problem. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 07:35:48 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:35:48 -0700 Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: References: <20051207003657.14356.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0512061813p1491c788y7c7235a47b034dc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512070735x660650e5u280d3960f7f93c27@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/05, Philip Hart wrote: > We were planning on having you go through the archives and repost > everything with flags attached to get around that problem. Ah, but he wouldn't know what the flags *meant* until March either. ;) Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Dec 7 10:57:02 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:57:02 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > >> So I wonder, which one sounds better? Which is more canonical? > >Someone less lazy than I should look these up in the book search. > >Here's what sounds right to me: > >> "Two Phoenixes" >> "Two Dragons" >> "Two Lyorns" >> "Two Tiassa" >> "Two Hawks" >> "Two Dzurs" >> "Two Issolas" >> "Two Tsalmoths" >> "Two Vallistas" >> "Two Jhereg" >> "Two Iorich" >> "Two Chreothas" >> "Two Yendi" >> "Two Orcas" >> "Two Teckla" >> "Two Jhegaalas" >> "Two Athyra" > >That was harder than expected; we're so used to seeing the terms >used as adjectives or references to the whole House. Okay, I found another reference that supports Davdi (and my) preferences for one of the plural house names: Lord of Castle Black, pg 28: "However, the Vallista had, by this time become so well settled into their new homes..." Conclusion: Vallista is, in fact, its own plural. So we have Teckla and Vallista. Two down, 15 to go. Majikjon From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Dec 7 11:05:46 2005 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:05:46 +0000 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't been following this thread, but for the sake of comedy, I submit that the Vallista quote was in fact an error on Steve's part---the true plural of the word Vallista is Vallistae. Anyone knows that. Jon Okay, I found another reference that supports Davdi (and my) preferences for one of the plural house names: Lord of Castle Black, pg 28: "However, the Vallista had, by this time become so well settled into their new homes..." Conclusion: Vallista is, in fact, its own plural. So we have Teckla and Vallista. Two down, 15 to go. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 12:00:29 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:00:29 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > Okay, I found another reference that supports Davdi (and my) preferences > for one of the plural house names: > > Lord of Castle Black, pg 28: > > "However, the Vallista had, by this time become so well settled into their > new homes..." > > Conclusion: Vallista is, in fact, its own plural. > > So we have Teckla and Vallista. Two down, 15 to go. > /The Paths of the Dead/, Ch. 22, pg. 217 [Begin Cite] Harata is, indeed, a place of rolling hills, in addition to a large number of small ponds, gentle meadows, and, here and there, small wooded areas, the whole of which is populated mostly by Dzur and Lyorn, as well as the occasional Tiassa and of course, the Teckla; [End Cite] That's two more down, for the price of one. Pity it doesn't clear up Tiassa as well. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 12:09:13 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:09:13 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > That's two more down, for the price of one. Pity it doesn't clear up > Tiassa as well. > Given that there are quite a few of them mentioned, I thought I'd do this search as well. And more than searching, I have very nearly found what I searched for: /Paths of the Dead/, pg 147: [Begin Cite] And so, this agreed upon, the two Tiassa retired for the night, and, after a long and sound sleep, arose the next morning prepared to put their plan into operation. [End Cite] At this rate, the matter should be settled before the Cycle changes, I nearly think. From pulmon at mac.com Wed Dec 7 13:51:06 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 16:51:06 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Building on my Tecklae? Issolae Shall we make a linguistic segu?: Jheregim Lyornim Tsalmothim Iorichim Ken On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:05 PM, J C wrote: > > I haven't been following this thread, but for the sake of comedy, I > submit that the Vallista quote was in fact an error on Steve's > part---the true plural of the word Vallista is Vallistae. Anyone > knows that. > > Jon > Okay, I found another reference that supports Davdi (and my) > preferences > for one of the plural house names: > > Lord of Castle Black, pg 28: > > "However, the Vallista had, by this time become so well settled > into their > new homes..." > > Conclusion: Vallista is, in fact, its own plural. > > So we have Teckla and Vallista. Two down, 15 to go. > > Majikjon > > listinfo/dragaera > > > listinfo/dragaera From bryann at bryann.net Wed Dec 7 16:16:37 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:16:37 -0600 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> > At this rate, the matter should be settled before the Cycle > changes, I nearly think. I used the book search to do a quick search for various forms of plurals. It seems the book search is broken in a sense: If you search for "Tiassas", for example, it sometimes returns links that send you to a blank page instead of a text reference. After some digging around, it appears that it's failing when it finds "Tiassa's". It ignores the apostrophe when deciding whether to draw a link, but considers it when looking up the actual text, perhaps? Anyway, here are the results (if there were multiple examples, I list the most recently published book). Houses that say "no match" did not have any matches, or the matches were broken as described above: Phoenixes/Phoenix - no match Dragons - TPG Chapter 34 - Why should they care which line of Dragons is given the estate? Lyorns - Jhereg Chapter 9 - The Lyorns have records of him. Tiassas - no match Hawks - TPG Chapter 1 - a Lyorn and two Hawks. - TPG Chapter 34 - keep your ears to the sky, and your eyes to the ground, as the Hawks say Dzurs - no match Issolas - Issola Chapter 7 - proving that even Issolas are capable of self-directed irony. Tsalmoths - no match Vallistas - no match Jheregs - Jhereg Chapter 9 - ...the Jheregs were obviously the only ones who could manage it properly. / Why did the Jheregs agree to help? Iorichs - no match Chreothas - Jhereg Chapter 9 - Do you mean, for example, that Chreothas are descended from actual chreothas?" Yendis - no match Orcas - Teckla Chapter 8 - But the big merchants -- the Orcas and the Tsalmoth and the Jhegaala - Teckla Chapter 12 - I thought about Orcas who will knife anyone for twenty Imperials Tecklas - no match Jhegaalas - no match Athyras - no match Bryan From bryann at bryann.net Wed Dec 7 16:47:24 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:47:24 -0600 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> So apparently Vlad and Paarfi (and possibly Kiera (Orca), Savn (Athyra), and Miklos (Brokedown Palace)) are narrating these novels to Brust via the magic box. However, Paarfi appears to be transmitting quite a few years later than Vlad, Kiera or Savn, who almost certainly in turn are transmitting quite a few years later than Miklos. As to Miklos, it's possible that he just wrote Brokedown Palace down, and then someone else found it later, or possibly it was passed on orally until someone eventually narrated it into the magic box. Further, that person might have been Kiera or Savn, both of whom might well be alive at the time Paarfi was narrating The Viscount of Adrilankha to Brust. I don't believe Paarfi could have been the person narrating Brokedown Palace to Brust, as I can't imagine him reading someone else's work verbatim. That leaves the novels Vlad has supposedly narrated to Brust. Brust is receiving all these tales at roughly the same time (within the last 40 odd years, at most). It seems doubtful to me, however, that Vlad would still be alive at the same time Paarfi is narrating Viscount. Possible explanations: 1. Vlad is a very long-lived Easterner, and is narrating his tales to Brust at the same time Paarfi is narrating Viscount to Brust, long after the actual events occurred. 2. The magic box is not constrained by time (in much the same way the Paths of the Dead are not), or possibly there are two different boxes, each of which transmits at a different speed, and Vlad's box (being older, of course) takes longer to transmit to Brust, whereas Paarfi's box is like Ender's ansible (since he appears to have a real-time conversation with Brust in one of the prologues). It just so happens that Brust is getting both transmissions at roughly the same time. 3. Vlad's box is a recorder, not a transmitter, and years later, someone else (Kiera, Savn, or (doubtful) Paarfi?) transmits his recordings to Brust (possibly using Paarfi's box, which seems to be a genuine two-way communication device). I rather like the idea of Savn being Vlad's biographer. 4. It's a good old fashioned Crack. 5. I really need to work on my suspension of disbelief. Thoughts? Bryan From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 16:52:47 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:52:47 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512071652j100224e7peb8226cd7c23db5e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > Possible explanations: > > 1. Vlad is a very long-lived Easterner, and is narrating his tales to Brust > at the same time Paarfi is narrating Viscount to Brust, long after the > actual events occurred. Some of the narration in Dragon, IIRC, indicates that he is narrating the story at roughly the time where it occurs. Somewhere around the part where he's talking about "someone" messing with his memory, he says it's funny that he couldn't remember something that had happened only a few days earlier, and yet now three(?) years later he can still remember not remembering. > 3. Vlad's box is a recorder, not a transmitter, and years later, someone > else (Kiera, Savn, or (doubtful) Paarfi?) transmits his recordings to Brust I've always thought it was a recorder anyway, just because the translator would need a recording and not a single transmission anyway, and it always sounded like a tape recorder. My vote is that Devera acts as a courier. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From st.shafer at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 17:02:38 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:02:38 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512071652j100224e7peb8226cd7c23db5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> <2ddbda5f0512071652j100224e7peb8226cd7c23db5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77369c850512071702mcd562d2r7df21b490f60b081@mail.gmail.com> Or perhaps Steve is really a Dragaeran and the time isn't an issue... From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 7 17:17:31 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:17:31 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> References: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <439789AB.504@comcast.net> Bryan Newell wrote: >Possible explanations: > >1. Vlad is a very long-lived Easterner, and is narrating his tales to Brust >at the same time Paarfi is narrating Viscount to Brust, long after the >actual events occurred. > >2. The magic box is not constrained by time (in much the same way the Paths >of the Dead are not), or possibly there are two different boxes, each of >which transmits at a different speed, and Vlad's box (being older, of >course) takes longer to transmit to Brust, whereas Paarfi's box is like >Ender's ansible (since he appears to have a real-time conversation with >Brust in one of the prologues). It just so happens that Brust is getting >both transmissions at roughly the same time. > >3. Vlad's box is a recorder, not a transmitter, and years later, someone >else (Kiera, Savn, or (doubtful) Paarfi?) transmits his recordings to Brust >(possibly using Paarfi's box, which seems to be a genuine two-way >communication device). I rather like the idea of Savn being Vlad's >biographer. > >4. It's a good old fashioned Crack. > >5. I really need to work on my suspension of disbelief. > >Thoughts? > >Bryan > > The box IS a trnasmitter, but it's going through a relay located in the Paths of the Dead (or maybe Verra's halls) and therefore can pick up signals on extremely odd (not to mention convenient) time intervals. Either that, or Steve has a window like Morrolan. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 21:37:46 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:37:46 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > At this rate, the matter should be settled before the Cycle > > changes, I nearly think. > > I used the book search to do a quick search for various forms of plurals. > It seems the book search is broken in a sense: If you search for "Tiassas", > for example, it sometimes returns links that send you to a blank page > instead of a text reference. > After some digging around, it appears that it's failing when it finds > "Tiassa's". It ignores the apostrophe when deciding whether to draw a link, > but considers it when looking up the actual text, perhaps? Good catch. I'd noticed the empty pages, but not deduced what triggered them. > Anyway, here are the results (if there were multiple examples, I list the > most recently published book). Houses that say "no match" did not have any > matches, or the matches were broken as described above: And I thank you for making the effort. However, I note that for some of your hits, the most recently published is actually kinda old. I would suggest that either Steve hadn't settled on a standard yet, or they are just "typos". Some responses: > > Dragons > - TPG Chapter 34 - Why should they care which line of Dragons is given the > estate? I think we're granting this one as being a modified plural, unless someone finds several counter-examples. > Lyorns > - Jhereg Chapter 9 - The Lyorns have records of him. As I noted, there is an unmodified plural of Lyorn in /The Paths of the Dead/, which I think trumps this. > Hawks > - TPG Chapter 1 - a Lyorn and two Hawks. > - TPG Chapter 34 - keep your ears to the sky, and your eyes to the ground, > as the Hawks say Same as for "Dragons", I think. > > Issolas > - Issola Chapter 7 - proving that even Issolas are capable of self-directed > irony. Huh. But, to the left, I tracked down 3 counter-examples, also in /Issola/ - so I think the above has to be a typo: pg62: "But she knows many languages. Many Issola do. It's a custom, such as Dragons knowing how to fight, and Jhereg knowing how to offer a bribe." pg 160: "That's the tricky part about the Issola; you can never be certain how they are feeling." pg 211: "What are young Issola like?" > Tsalmoths And your hit on "Orcas", further down, provides an excellent cite for "Tsalmoth" being an unmodifed plural. > > Vallistas Jon_Lincicum found the cite in /The Lord of Castle Black/. > > Jheregs > - Jhereg Chapter 9 - ...the Jheregs were obviously the only ones who could > manage it properly. / Why did the Jheregs agree to help? I think there are plenty of counter-examples, including one of the ones I found above for /Issola/ > > Chreothas > - Jhereg Chapter 9 - Do you mean, for example, that Chreothas are descended > from actual chreothas?" I'm willing to bet that there's a more recent counter-example. Just need to track it down... > Yendis I just realized that "How many Yendi does it take to sharpen a sword?" is a cite for Yendi as an unmodified plural, from /Yendi/, chapter 15. > > Orcas > - Teckla Chapter 8 - But the big merchants -- the Orcas and the Tsalmoth and > the Jhegaala > - Teckla Chapter 12 - I thought about Orcas who will knife anyone for twenty > Imperials Good catches, but I'm pretty sure there are counter-examples. > > Jhegaalas Same citation from above. So I think I still need to check for citations regarding Orca, Chreotha, Iorich, and Phoenix being used as unmodified plurals. Every other House, except for Dragon and Hawk, is definitely almost always used as an unmodifed plural. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 22:43:03 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:43:03 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/7/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > > > At this rate, the matter should be settled before the Cycle > > > changes, I nearly think. > > > > I used the book search to do a quick search for various forms of plurals. And as I've said before, I find that Amazon search inside sometimes is more useful. Among other things, searching on plurals also hits the singular as well. > > However, I note that for some of your hits, the most recently > published is actually kinda old. I would suggest that either Steve > hadn't settled on a standard yet, or they are just "typos". > > > > > Orcas > > - Teckla Chapter 8 - But the big merchants -- the Orcas and the Tsalmoth and > > the Jhegaala > > - Teckla Chapter 12 - I thought about Orcas who will knife anyone for twenty > > Imperials > > Good catches, but I'm pretty sure there are counter-examples. > The obvious place to search was /Orca/ (or rather, /The Book of Athyra/, which contains /Orca/) - and sure enough, there were *many* counter-examples, and as a bonus, I found some usages of Chreotha as a plural, as well. pg 222: "It might also mean that the Orca weren't as sophisticated as the Jhereg." pg 272: "Three men, one woman, all of them Orca ..." pg 352: "This area was developed about three hundred years ago by Sorenet and Family, Shipwrights, and pretty much everyone who lived around here worked for them. Some Orca, some Chreotha, mostly Teckla just in from your favorite village a generation ago." pg 363-364: "... I made my way into the small, smoke-filled little inn, in amongst a large crowd of mostly Teckla, with a couple of Orca and Chreotha surrounded by the entourage the minor nobility invariably attracts in such places ..." pg 379: "I looked at how everyone was positioned, then I pointed to the two Orca, one at a time, with my blade" pg 400: "Only Dragons kill like that, and Dzur, I suppose." "You're right," I said. "Dragons and Dzur. And also Orca, if there's a profit in it." pg 416: "And now, Ensign, can you figure out why it was not only Stony whose death was made permanent but also three of those Orca who are Vonnith's private guards?" From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 7 23:06:48 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > "Three men, one woman, all of them Orca ..." Hmm: "Three men, one woman, all of them American". That's English, isn't it? From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 00:01:10 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:01:10 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > pg 379: > "I looked at how everyone was positioned, then I pointed to the two > Orca, one at a time, with my blade" > And another example, on the same page as the above: "There's no question that the two Orca could have taken me then, ..." From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 00:07:53 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:07:53 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > "Three men, one woman, all of them Orca ..." > > Hmm: "Three men, one woman, all of them American". > That's English, isn't it? Thinking about it, I think the sentence is a perfect example of where it could go either way as either the singular adjective or plural form, for pretty much any ethnicity or nationality. Although some ethnicities/nationalities would use the "-ish" suffix for the singular form. Language is just daft, sometimes. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 8 05:51:27 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 06:51:27 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: <001b01c5fb8c$a76c4110$6501a8c0@dell><001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> <2ddbda5f0512071652j100224e7peb8226cd7c23db5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maximilian Wilson" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: Re: The Magic Box I've always thought it was a recorder anyway, just because the translator would need a recording and not a single transmission anyway, and it always sounded like a tape recorder. My vote is that Devera acts as a courier. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. I like this idea. That would also leave her available to "drop off" the political science books that are used to help the revolutionaries we see in Phoenix. If that is the case, it begs the question: is Steve playing both sides against the middle, experimenting with revolution from a minimum safe distance, or did he stir up trouble just to have a good storyline? Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 8 06:18:36 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 06:18:36 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > However, I note that for some of your hits, the most recently > published is actually kinda old. I would suggest that either Steve > hadn't settled on a standard yet, or they are just "typos". > I would say that the references that only appear in /Jhereg/, especially, are probably just "rough edges" of Dragaera that get "worn off" by the time Steve's got a few books under his belt. For the other conflicting usages (esp. Issolas, or Orcas) I would suggest that these may simply be alternate plural forms. Either is correct, it is left to the preference of the speaker which to use. Alternately, if you'll pardon the pun, the form of "Orca" vs "Orcas" may depend on whether you are talking about a group of Orca from one family grouping, or talking about all the various Orcas in all of their various clans. Kind of the way it's "Fish" for several fish of one species, but it's "fishes" for many different species of fishes. (And yes, I know that orca aren't fish.) My feeling is that the words that are exactly the same as ours (Orca, Phoenix, Dragon, Hawk) should probably just pluralize the same way as we do, with the caveat that they may have an alternate form (esp. Orca, and possibly Phoenix) that is the same as the singular. The other houses, so far as I can see from the text ev, is probably always the same in both singular and plural form, with possible exceptions of Issola and Maaaybe Chreothas, but this last one is only found in /Jhereg/, so I have doubts as to its enduring veracity. Phew. That's a mouthful. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051208/7632f07b/attachment.html From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 8 08:54:32 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:54:32 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box Message-ID: >I like this idea. That would also leave her available to "drop off" the >political science books that are used to help the revolutionaries we see in >Phoenix. If that is the case, it begs the question: is Steve playing both >sides against the middle, experimenting with revolution from a minimum safe >distance, or did he stir up trouble just to have a good storyline? > >Jeff If Steve is using Devera in this way, he almost has to have some kind of an arrangement with Verra. Or maybe he's *controlling* Verra? Perhaps this is why she is the "Demon Goddess"? Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 8 09:04:43 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:04:43 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com To: Jeff G. Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info ; dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: Re: The Magic Box >I like this idea. That would also leave her available to "drop off" the >political science books that are used to help the revolutionaries we see in >Phoenix. If that is the case, it begs the question: is Steve playing both >sides against the middle, experimenting with revolution from a minimum safe >distance, or did he stir up trouble just to have a good storyline? > >Jeff If Steve is using Devera in this way, he almost has to have some kind of an arrangement with Verra. Or maybe he's *controlling* Verra? Perhaps this is why she is the "Demon Goddess"? Majikjon She probably lost a game of Texas Hold 'em, and couldn't cover the pot. Jeff From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 09:18:54 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:18:54 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512080918g3546695cv2d7ed79d483414ac@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > If Steve is using Devera in this way, he almost has to have some kind of > an arrangement with Verra. > > Or maybe he's *controlling* Verra? > > Perhaps this is why she is the "Demon Goddess"? > > Majikjon I dunno. We know Devera is not confined to Dragaera; the question is, is she *always* Aliera's daughter, or is that just her identity within that universe? Like in /Freedom And Necessity/, is she human or Dragaeran there? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From alexx at panix.com Thu Dec 8 10:05:04 2005 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:05:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <200512081805.jB8I54k13819@panix1.panix.com> > 1. Vlad is a very long-lived Easterner, and is narrating his tales to Brust > at the same time Paarfi is narrating Viscount to Brust, long after the > actual events occurred. Nope. As mentioned elsewhere on this thread, _Dragon_ was narrated before _Jhereg_ happened. Also, _Phoenix_ was narrated before _Athyra_ happened. > 2. The magic box is not constrained by time (in much the same way the Paths > of the Dead are not), This is my preferred explanation. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "The only people not changed by life are those who are unaware of it in the first place." -- J. Michael Straczynski From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 8 10:19:51 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:19:51 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box Message-ID: > >> Or maybe he's *controlling* Verra? >> >> Perhaps this is why she is the "Demon Goddess"? >> >> Majikjon > >I dunno. We know Devera is not confined to Dragaera; the question is, >is she *always* Aliera's daughter, or is that just her identity within >that universe? Like in /Freedom And Necessity/, is she human or >Dragaeran there? > >Max Wilson Yes, but if she's running to Dragaera to pick things up from Vlad, then she's Aliera's daughter (and Verra's granddaughter) at least while she's *there*, and I don't think she'd be allowed to do this without at least tacit permission from Verra. I think I like the Texas Hold 'em explanation best. My only question is, how could Verra be such a sucker as to agree to play against someone like Steve? Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 8 10:30:31 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:30:31 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com To: Maximilian Wilson Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info ; Jeff G. Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:19 AM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > >> Or maybe he's *controlling* Verra? >> >> Perhaps this is why she is the "Demon Goddess"? >> >> Majikjon > >I dunno. We know Devera is not confined to Dragaera; the question is, >is she *always* Aliera's daughter, or is that just her identity within >that universe? Like in /Freedom And Necessity/, is she human or >Dragaeran there? > >Max Wilson Yes, but if she's running to Dragaera to pick things up from Vlad, then she's Aliera's daughter (and Verra's granddaughter) at least while she's *there*, and I don't think she'd be allowed to do this without at least tacit permission from Verra. I think I like the Texas Hold 'em explanation best. My only question is, how could Verra be such a sucker as to agree to play against someone like Steve? Majikjon It's the drums. Verra digs drummers, and invited Steve to her realm for a private concert. Afterwards, he introduces her to this quaint little card game he knows. . . . . . Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 8 12:07:03 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:07:03 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: > At this rate, the matter should be settled before the Cycle > changes, I nearly think. I think we can assign a tenative matrix to this as follows: Singular: Plural: Phoenix Phoenix (possible alternate form: Phoenixes, only because this is *our* plural form) Dragon Dragons Lyorn Lyorn (possible alternate form: Lyorns, cited once, likely a typo) Tiassa Tiassa Hawk Hawks Dzur Dzur Issola Issola (possible alternate form: Issolas, cited once, possibly a typo) Tsalmoth Tsalmoth Vallista Vallista Jhereg Jhereg (possible alternate form: Jheregs, cited once, likely a typo) Iorich Iorich Chreotha Chreotha (possible alternate form: Chreothas, cited once, likely a typo) Yendi Yendi Orca Orca (possible alternate form: Orcas, multiple citations, plus this is *our* plural form) Teckla Teckla Jhegaala Jhegaala Athyra Athyra Of course, having made all these determinations, I'm sure Steve will just deliberately write them all the other way from now on. Majikjon /"You're just saying that, Boss, because you know if you say it it won't happen that way."/ /"I'm an Easterner, chum. I can be superstitious if I want to."/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051208/aa57d74a/attachment.htm From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 12:11:36 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:11:36 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512081211h4dfe3069seff1e21a2bac9d2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Issola Issola (possible alternate form: Issolas, cited once, possibly > a typo) I haven't checked this myself, but I thought it was 1 for "Issolas" and 2 or 3 for "Issola"? The strength of the "possibly" rests on the ratio between the two forms, so it's relevant to include numbers for both. This may apply to other Houses with two extent plural forms. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 8 12:18:09 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:18:09 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: On 12/8/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Issola Issola (possible alternate form: Issolas, cited once, possibly >> a typo) > >I haven't checked this myself, but I thought it was 1 for "Issolas" >and 2 or 3 for "Issola"? The strength of the "possibly" rests on the >ratio between the two forms, so it's relevant to include numbers for >both. This may apply to other Houses with two extent plural forms. I was giving this one a higher priority due to the *recentness* of the citation... This being the only one any newer than in /Teckla/ that shows a variant between plural and singular, with most of the aberrant cites being from /Jhereg/. (Excepting Dragons and Hawks, anyway.) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 8 12:18:38 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:18:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Phoenix Phoenix (possible alternate form: Phoenixes, only because this > is *our* plural form) Has someone yet quibbled about "phoenix" being by definition singular? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Dec 8 12:24:58 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:24:58 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: >On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Phoenix Phoenix (possible alternate form: Phoenixes, only because this >> is *our* plural form) > >Has someone yet quibbled about "phoenix" being by definition singular? I think it came up. Problem is, while this fact may be true in Vlad's time, the Paarfi books still have multiple Phoenix in them. Multiple Phoenixes in them. Darn it, I just can't decide which sounds better on this one. Maybe we should just take a vote? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Dec 8 12:29:27 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:29:27 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439897A7.8030306@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Phoenix Phoenix (possible alternate form: Phoenixes, only because this >> is *our* plural form) > >Has someone yet quibbled about "phoenix" being by definition singular? > > Well, there can only be one mythical phoenix at a time, and I'm aware of one city. Having a phoenix from the first set and one from the second might not count. From bryann at bryann.net Thu Dec 8 15:41:58 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:41:58 -0600 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c5fc50$fac93240$6501a8c0@dell> > I haven't checked this myself, but I thought it was 1 > for "Issolas" and 2 or 3 for "Issola"? The strength of > the "possibly" rests on the ratio between the two forms, > so it's relevant to include numbers for both. Actually, some of the plurals I cited appeared in more than one novel, but I only listed the most recent by publication date. Furthermore, the book search doesn't have all the books, so I don't think we can yet do any sort of enumeration of usage yet, at least not without a little more diligence. > I would say that the references that only appear in /Jhereg/, > especially, are probably just "rough edges" of Dragaera that > get "worn off" by the time Steve's got a few books under his > belt. I was thinking the same way, which is why I listed the most recent reference only. That would make "Sethra Lavode" the most accurate, according to this way of thinking, so I started reading it with an eye for plurals, and right off the bat, page 14 of the Preface, I see: "Zerika's support was strongest among the Lyorn, Tiassa, and Hawk nobles, a statistic that would seem irrational, as these Houses stood to gain the Orb sooner with a Dragon on the throne. Yet Lyorns have always held that the Orb was sacred, and in such questions, the Tiassas have more often than not followed the Lyorns' lead." Bryan From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 16:17:55 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:17:55 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512081617t54bf02d9m8384646f6b5c55fc@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: [Max Wilson wrote:] > On 12/8/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Issola Issola (possible alternate form: Issolas, cited once, > possibly > >> a typo) > > > >I haven't checked this myself, but I thought it was 1 for "Issolas" > >and 2 or 3 for "Issola"? The strength of the "possibly" rests on the > >ratio between the two forms, so it's relevant to include numbers for > >both. This may apply to other Houses with two extent plural forms. > > I was giving this one a higher priority due to the *recentness* of the > citation... This being the only one any newer than in /Teckla/ that shows a > variant between plural and singular, with most of the aberrant cites being > from /Jhereg/. (Excepting Dragons and Hawks, anyway.) But the quote in question was from /Issola/. '"Of course. It would be rude not to," proving that even Issolas are capable of self-directed irony.' I'm voting for "octopuses" and "octopi" (as well as the more correct "octopodes"). Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Thu Dec 8 17:55:08 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:55:08 -0700 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512081617t54bf02d9m8384646f6b5c55fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0512081617t54bf02d9m8384646f6b5c55fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4398E3FC.7040000@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >I'm voting for "octopuses" and "octopi" (as well as the more correct >"octopodes"). > > I like some of the rarer acceptable plurals - such as subschemata. From steve at romlin.com Fri Dec 9 10:53:43 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:53:43 +0100 Subject: Plural Message-ID: Phoenix ->Phoenices? (by analogy with Matrix ->Matrices Radix -> Radices Vertex -> Vertices) > > Phoenix Phoenix (possible alternate form: Phoenixes, only because > this > > is *our* plural form) > > Has someone yet quibbled about "phoenix" being by definition singular? > > -- \Steve From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 9 11:21:19 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:21:19 -0800 Subject: Plural Message-ID: >Phoenix ->Phoenices? > >(by analogy with >Matrix ->Matrices >Radix -> Radices >Vertex -> Vertices) > >\Steve I don't like this one at all... Sounds too much like "Feces"... Which Tortaalik (or Illista) might deserve, but Zerika certainly does not. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Dec 9 11:35:29 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 12:35:29 -0700 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Phoenix ->Phoenices? >> >>(by analogy with >>Matrix ->Matrices >>Radix -> Radices >>Vertex -> Vertices) >> >>\Steve > >I don't like this one at all... Sounds too much like "Feces"... Which >Tortaalik (or Illista) might deserve, but Zerika certainly does not. > > > But as grade school kids know - every name can be made fun of. You had to stretch that a lot to ignore that syllable though. vortex - vortices latex - latices or sex - sexes hex - hexes rex - rex wax - waxes or crisis - crises From goannaman at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 12:18:55 2005 From: goannaman at gmail.com (Jay Smith) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:18:55 -0500 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> References: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> Message-ID: Pardon a noob for interjecting, but as the premise is that the stories contained in the Dragaera books are translated into English, if the word for a house exists in English, would it not be appropriate to use the English plural? After all, we have no idea what the Dragaeran equivalent of "House of the Dragon" is. From pulmon at mac.com Fri Dec 9 12:27:54 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:27:54 -0500 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EEC704A-AF86-44DB-A46B-02CFACF1A4B1@mac.com> Or perhaps Phoenicians by analogy: Greece-> Grecians.... On Dec 9, 2005, at 1:53 PM, Steve Rapaport wrote: > Phoenix ->Phoenices? > > (by analogy with > Matrix ->Matrices > Radix -> Radices > Vertex -> Vertices) > > >>> Phoenix Phoenix (possible alternate form: Phoenixes, only >>> because >> this >>> is *our* plural form) >> >> Has someone yet quibbled about "phoenix" being by definition >> singular? >> >> > > > -- > \Steve > listinfo/dragaera From howard at brazee.net Fri Dec 9 12:38:44 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:38:44 -0700 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4399EB54.8090502@brazee.net> Jay Smith wrote: > > Pardon a noob for interjecting, but as the premise is that the stories > contained in the Dragaera books are translated into English, if the > word for a house exists in English, would it not be appropriate to use > the English plural? > > After all, we have no idea what the Dragaeran equivalent of "House of > the Dragon" is. > But we've seen English language phrases, expression, and prose. The correct plural is the one which best expresses the flavor of the Dragaeran original combined with the literary traditions that we have here. From johne.cook at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 12:58:49 2005 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:58:49 -0600 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: <4399EB54.8090502@brazee.net> References: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> <4399EB54.8090502@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > But we've seen English language phrases, expression, and prose. The > correct plural is the one which best expresses the flavor of the > Dragaeran original combined with the literary traditions that we have here. Is it possible that "phoenix" is one of those names that can be both singluar /and/ plural? "The phoenix rose from its ashes." "The Phoenix were known for rising from their ashes." -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 9 13:10:49 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:10:49 -0800 Subject: Plural Message-ID: >Pardon a noob for interjecting, but as the premise is that the stories >contained in the Dragaera books are translated into English, if the word for >a house exists in English, would it not be appropriate to use the English >plural? > >After all, we have no idea what the Dragaeran equivalent of "House of the >Dragon" is. That's actually a very good point, and one I have been pondering. (In fact, it influenced my assesement that "Phoenixes" may be correct for Dragaera, since this word has never actually been in the text) I think the answer is complicated by the fact that: a) Steven Brust the "translator" is trying to preserve a sense of the "style" of the language, so a literal translation is not always the best one (See Howard's answer). The famous example of this is Kruschev's "We will bury you." which is a literal translation of a fairly innocuous Russin phrase that means "We will outlive you." b) The alternate translation may be there to convey a subtle change of meaning; similar to how "Kilometers" "Miles" "Leagues" et al. are used interchangeably in the Paarfi works to "represent the six different forms of measurement that were then in use" in the Empire. Overall, however, I find it very difficult to say that the terms "Phoenixes" and "Orcas" (in particular) are /wrong/--even if they don't appear in the texts--for exactly the reasons you specified; Hence, my suggestion that these are simply acceptable alternate forms. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 13:47:09 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:47:09 -0800 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> <4399EB54.8090502@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Johne Cook wrote: > > Is it possible that "phoenix" is one of those names that can be both > singluar /and/ plural? > That's what I was trying to suggest, quite a few posts ago, in the previous plurality of posts on plurality. Three phoenix flew overhead. "Well." said Khaavren "That's not a plurality you see every day." From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 9 13:52:29 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:52:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: <4399DC81.8000306@brazee.net> <4399EB54.8090502@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Three phoenix flew overhead. "Well." said Khaavren "That's not a > plurality you see every day." Someone having triplets? What if a Phoenix is having twins and only one phoenix flies overhead? Are there any references to Dragaeran twins, btw? From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 13:56:54 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:56:54 -0800 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Overall, however, I find it very difficult to say that the terms > "Phoenixes" and "Orcas" (in particular) are /wrong/--even if they don't > appear in the texts--for exactly the reasons you specified; Hence, my > suggestion that these are simply acceptable alternate forms. > Well, the reason I wondered about it in the first place was in the hope of established some firm guidelines for the Wikicity, and I was reluctant to simply go in and modify things to suit my preferences (no matter how preferable they were to me) without at least having a discussion on what seemed best to others, especially given that I could not recall for certain at that time what was in the text. However, I feel much more comfortable now in asserting that while both modified and unmodified plurals are acceptable, the "proper" forms (that is, the preferable ones) are that except for "Dragons" and "Hawks", all of the House (and animal) names are unmodified plurals. Unless SKZB says otherwise, of course. Which perhaps he will. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 9 14:08:40 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:08:40 -0800 Subject: Twins Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >What if a Phoenix is having twins and only one phoenix flies overhead? It just has to make two passes. >Are there any references to Dragaeran twins, btw? None. Of course, there are no references to Easterner twins, either (not even in BP), so this doesn't count for very much. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 14:15:59 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:15:59 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >What if a Phoenix is having twins and only one phoenix flies overhead? Actually, Philip Hart wrote that. You might want to fix the options for (checking headers) Lotus Notes so that it attributes messages properly in replies. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 9 14:55:01 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:55:01 -0000 Subject: Off-topic, saw this on a humor site, had to share In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051209225504.PFPL16192.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@markmain> Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken. --Unknown, presumed deceased From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 9 15:02:41 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:02:41 -0800 Subject: Plural Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/09/2005 12:27 PM To: Steve Rapaport cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Plural >Or perhaps Phoenicians >by analogy: Greece-> Grecians.... Except that this means something else entirely. Interestingly, however, this is actually where the name "Phoenix" comes from (via the greeks) in the first place; it's feathers were a color that was the same as their word for the Phoenician civilization. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 15:27:52 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:27:52 -0800 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439A12F8.5000700@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Well, the reason I wondered about it in the first place was in the >hope of established some firm guidelines for the Wikicity, and I was >reluctant to simply go in and modify things to suit my preferences (no >matter how preferable they were to me) without at least having a >discussion on what seemed best to others, especially given that I >could not recall for certain at that time what was in the text. > >However, I feel much more comfortable now in asserting that while both >modified and unmodified plurals are acceptable, the "proper" forms >(that is, the preferable ones) are that except for "Dragons" and >"Hawks", all of the House (and animal) names are unmodified plurals. > >Unless SKZB says otherwise, of course. Which perhaps he will. > > Hey, if you want to change the character subcat on the Wikicity to be "Orca" instead of "Orcas", I say go for it. Myself, I'm just glad I had an excuse to finally get rid of the one labelled "Dzurs" which I never cared for. Orcas doesn't seem so bad, by comparison. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 9 15:29:43 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: <439A12F8.5000700@comcast.net> References: <439A12F8.5000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > an excuse to finally get rid of the one labelled "Dzurs" which I never > cared for. "Dzurdz" would have been an improvement. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 15:30:44 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:30:44 -0700 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512091530j75c9568y8bf4907b665f8f1d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Kenneth Gorelick > >Or perhaps Phoenicians > >by analogy: Greece-> Grecians.... > > Except that this means something else entirely. > Come now! I thought it was funny. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Dec 9 15:39:01 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:39:01 +0100 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512091530j75c9568y8bf4907b665f8f1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson wrote: >To: "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info, Steve Rapaport >Subject: Re: Plural >Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:30:44 -0700 > >On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Kenneth Gorelick > > >Or perhaps Phoenicians > > >by analogy: Greece-> Grecians.... > > > > Except that this means something else entirely. > > > >Come now! I thought it was funny. > >Max Wilson > Don't worry, it was. :) From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 15:43:17 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:43:17 -0800 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512091530j75c9568y8bf4907b665f8f1d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0512091530j75c9568y8bf4907b665f8f1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439A1695.8040402@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >Come now! I thought it was funny. > >Max Wilson > > Okay. It was funny. Do Lyorn really have much of a sense of humor, though? ;-) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 17:09:32 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:09:32 -0800 Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: <439A12F8.5000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > an excuse to finally get rid of the one labelled "Dzurs" which I never > > cared for. > > "Dzurdz" would have been an improvement. It most certainly would not. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 9 17:14:59 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:14:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plural In-Reply-To: References: <439A12F8.5000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/9/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > an excuse to finally get rid of the one labelled "Dzurs" which I never > > > cared for. > > > > "Dzurdz" would have been an improvement. > > It most certainly would not. There's a non-zero probability that "Dzurdz" accurately reflects Dragaeran grammar or phonetics, so I think I'll disagree with "certainly". From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 17:21:29 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:21:29 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Philip Hart [correcting attribution here] wrote: > > >Are there any references to Dragaeran twins, btw? > > None. > > Of course, there are no references to Easterner twins, either (not even in > BP), so this doesn't count for very much. > While there are no hits on "twins", booksearch does find 3 uses of "twin"; once as a synonym for "two", once as being short for "two identical", and once as being short for "identical copy". Perhaps a liberty taken by the translator, but also perhaps signifying that the *concept* of twins does exist. Thinking about it a bit, even if Dragaerans themselves never give birth to twins, they may be familiar with other species (including Easterners) that do sometimes give birth to twins. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 9 17:32:44 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:32:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder how Dragaeran playwrights manage without twins, if there are none. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 17:46:50 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:46:50 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439A338A.4060805@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >I wonder how Dragaeran playwrights manage without twins, >if there are none. > Excellent point. It would be a shame, in fact, if there was no Dragaeran equivelant to "A Comedy of Errors", one of my personal favorite works of The Bard. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 9 17:53:11 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:53:11 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439A3507.1090101@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > While there are no hits on "twins", booksearch does find 3 uses > of"twin"; once as a synonym for "two", once as being short for "two > identical", and once as being short for "identical copy". Perhaps a > liberty taken by the translator, but also perhaps signifying that the > *concept* of twins does exist. > Thinking about it a bit, even if Dragaerans themselves never give > birth to twins, they may be familiar with other species (including > Easterners) that do sometimes give birth to twins. That was, more or less, my point. I think it's pretty safe to assume that Easterner's *do* have twins on occasion. (Given the idea that all of Dragaera was originally an interstellar earth colony). Dragaerans would be familiar with the concept, at least... And given the rarity of twins, even on Earth, it's not unthinkable that Dragaerans themselves even have them--in the same proportions that we do--and that we have just never chanced to have heard about them in the books. They are, after all, somewhat of a rarity on this planet, as well. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 9 17:59:40 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:59:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: <439A3507.1090101@comcast.net> References: <439A3507.1090101@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > it's not unthinkable that Dragaerans themselves even have them--in the > same proportions that we do--and that we have just never chanced to have > heard about them in the books. They are, after all, somewhat of a rarity > on this planet, as well. Apparently the rates are 2% for nonidentical (depending on external factors), 0.4% for identical (invariant). We must have met some hundreds of Dragaerans - of course, we wouldn't necessarily know if say Kragar has a sister. From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com Fri Dec 9 21:22:02 2005 From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 23:22:02 -0600 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F7E011-36F9-40E4-8020-3FF29C664EAB@tripp-russo.com> > >> What if a Phoenix is having twins and only one phoenix flies >> overhead? > > It just has to make two passes. > >> Are there any references to Dragaeran twins, btw? > > None. > If I'm recalling correctly, Dragaeran's can't conceive accidentally (which is just one reason house crossbreeds are so rare), so perhaps they have some control over this as well - at least in a post Interregnum Dragaera since there is all sorts of wonderful sorcery. Wether this lack of Dragaeran twins is deliberate or merely coincidental we may never know, I would suspect though that twins could happen to a Dragaeran just not by accident. From howard at brazee.net Sat Dec 10 05:38:51 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:38:51 -0700 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: <439A338A.4060805@comcast.net> References: <439A338A.4060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <439ADA6B.7000404@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >Philip Hart wrote: > > > >>I wonder how Dragaeran playwrights manage without twins, >>if there are none. >> >> >> >Excellent point. > >It would be a shame, in fact, if there was no Dragaeran equivelant to "A >Comedy of Errors", one of my personal favorite works of The Bard. > >Majikjon > > Don't worry - in the world of playwrights, it's not that rare to find exact doubles. From howard at brazee.net Sat Dec 10 05:40:05 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:40:05 -0700 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: <43F7E011-36F9-40E4-8020-3FF29C664EAB@tripp-russo.com> References: <43F7E011-36F9-40E4-8020-3FF29C664EAB@tripp-russo.com> Message-ID: <439ADAB5.10700@brazee.net> Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo wrote: >>>What if a Phoenix is having twins and only one phoenix flies >>>overhead? >>> >>> >>It just has to make two passes. >> >> >> >>>Are there any references to Dragaeran twins, btw? >>> >>> >>None. >> >> >> > >If I'm recalling correctly, Dragaeran's can't conceive accidentally >(which is just one reason house crossbreeds are so rare), so perhaps >they have some control over this as well - at least in a post >Interregnum Dragaera since there is all sorts of wonderful sorcery. > >Wether this lack of Dragaeran twins is deliberate or merely >coincidental we may never know, I would suspect though that twins >could happen to a Dragaeran just not by accident. > > At least fraternal twins might be controlled well. Identical twins occur after fertilization. From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 09:33:45 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:33:45 -0700 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> References: <004f01c5f5c4$048705c0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512022055i25ef2204y3945be83615adad6@mail.gmail.com> <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/11/05, Bj?rn H?gglund wrote: > > > > Ultimately, though, I don't think functors are the way to go for making > > objects. I'm too worried about overhead, and functors don't really seem > to > > be designed for creating objects so much as modules. > > Yes, you are probably right. I was actually just looking for nicer syntax > to > provide ADT:s in the style described. But it seems that functors are not > able to the job. I think I'll simply continue to use lexical closures, > then. > Have you played around with Gump? The CTM book suggests in several places that sufficiently-common idioms be given linguistic support, and I've heard people on this list suggest that e.g. some kinds of operator overloading (arithmetic on imaginary numbers) are best done with Gump rather than extending Oz itself, but I've never gotten deep enough into Gump to figure out how to do it. I think it would be very cool to create new linguistic constructs purely from a grammar and a translation into core syntax; but I don't really know how you'd approach it. I understand the compiler parses text and not abstract syntax trees, so you couldn't just use gump to parse the text and then feed a modified AST to the compiler; I'm not sure how you'd do it. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 11:50:30 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:50:30 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Steve concentrates on a few houses at a time. Then on the next book he concentrates on a new group and completely contradicts himself. On 12/8/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > On 12/7/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > However, I note that for some of your hits, the most recently > > published is actually kinda old. I would suggest that either Steve > > hadn't settled on a standard yet, or they are just "typos". > > > > I would say that the references that only appear in /Jhereg/, especially, > are probably just "rough edges" of Dragaera that get "worn off" by the > time Steve's got a few books under his belt. > > For the other conflicting usages (esp. Issolas, or Orcas) I would suggest > that these may simply be alternate plural forms. Either is correct, it is > left to the preference of the speaker which to use. > > Alternately, if you'll pardon the pun, the form of "Orca" vs "Orcas" may > depend on whether you are talking about a group of Orca from one family > grouping, or talking about all the various Orcas in all of their various > clans. Kind of the way it's "Fish" for several fish of one species, but > it's "fishes" for many different species of fishes. > > (And yes, I know that orca aren't fish.) > > My feeling is that the words that are exactly the same as ours (Orca, > Phoenix, Dragon, Hawk) should probably just pluralize the same way as we > do, with the caveat that they may have an alternate form (esp. Orca, and > possibly Phoenix) that is the same as the singular. > > The other houses, so far as I can see from the text ev, is probably always > the same in both singular and plural form, with possible exceptions of > Issola and Maaaybe Chreothas, but this last one is only found in /Jhereg/, > so I have doubts as to its enduring veracity. > > Phew. That's a mouthful. > > Majikjon > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051211/813756bd/attachment.html From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 22:41:16 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:41:16 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: <439A338A.4060805@comcast.net> References: <439A338A.4060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >I wonder how Dragaeran playwrights manage without twins, > >if there are none. > > > Excellent point. > > It would be a shame, in fact, if there was no Dragaeran equivelant to "A > Comedy of Errors", one of my personal favorite works of The Bard. > We have examples of Dragaerans that look similar to each other (eg, Loftis and Morrolan of the e'Drien line). Generalizing further, we can extrapolate that given that Houses are rather inbred, there must be cases where close (or even distant) cousins or fraternal siblings must resemble each other enough for hijinks and hilarity to ensue. However, from Lady Teldra's description of Dragaeran plays, it sounds like they are all tragedies. So (generalizing from one example), you can't have a comedy of errors. Although there might well be tragedies of errors. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 22:52:05 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:52:05 -0800 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> References: <004f01c5f5c4$048705c0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512022055i25ef2204y3945be83615adad6@mail.gmail.com> <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > Have you played around with Gump? The CTM book suggests in several places > that sufficiently-common idioms be given linguistic support, and I've heard > people on this list suggest that e.g. some kinds of operator overloading > (arithmetic on imaginary numbers) are best done with Gump rather than > extending Oz itself, but I've never gotten deep enough into Gump to figure > out how to do it. I've been trying to figure out a good response to this, and the best I can come up with are: "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." "Parse error, which crushed under house." From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 12 06:58:46 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:58:46 -0800 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/11/2005 10:52 PM To Dragaera Mailing List cc Subject Re: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." You forgot the circumflex in "K?nas". Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051212/98afad90/attachment.htm From ike at manor.org Mon Dec 12 09:24:34 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:24:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > Jheregim > Lyornim > Tsalmothim > Iorichim Are these going to be the long awaited tie-in with 'To Reign in Hell'? --Brother Ike From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Mon Dec 12 10:33:40 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:33:40 -0500 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:21:29 -0500, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Thinking about it a bit, even if Dragaerans themselves never give > birth to twins, they may be familiar with other species (including > Easterners) that do sometimes give birth to twins. Animal husbandry should give them the concept of multiple births. However it may not follow that they know the concept of "identical" twins or that humans or Easterners might have multiple births. I don't recall any mention of such in the texts personally but I'm hardly as encyclopedic as some others here. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 12 10:42:50 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:42:50 -0700 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439DC4AA.8080201@brazee.net> Grady Brandt wrote: >On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:21:29 -0500, Davdi Silverrock >wrote: > >> On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> Thinking about it a bit, even if Dragaerans themselves never give >> birth to twins, they may be familiar with other species (including >> Easterners) that do sometimes give birth to twins. > >Animal husbandry should give them the concept of multiple births. However >it may not follow that they know the concept of "identical" twins or that >humans or Easterners might have multiple births. I don't recall any >mention of such in the texts personally but I'm hardly as encyclopedic as >some others here. > > > Animal husbandry combined with the genetic science that they have shown to have will give them such understanding. I wouldn't be surprised if they could create identical twins when desired for some royal or noble inheritance purpose. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 10:48:05 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:48:05 -0800 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > > You forgot the circumflex in "K?nas". > I am struck by the extreme justice of this observation. And also by a large yellow brick. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 11:11:12 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:11:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > > > > You forgot the circumflex in "K?nas". > > > > I am struck by the extreme justice of this observation. > And also by a large yellow brick. Where was Kasnas? Somewhere near Misery? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:25:05 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:25:05 -0700 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davdi Silverrock" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > > You forgot the circumflex in "K?nas". > I am struck by the extreme justice of this observation. And also by a large yellow brick. Was it a gold brick with a lemon wrapped around it? Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:26:20 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:26:20 -0700 Subject: Twins References: <439DC4AA.8080201@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 11:42 AM Subject: Re: Twins > Grady Brandt wrote: > > >On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:21:29 -0500, Davdi Silverrock > >wrote: > > > >> On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> > >> Thinking about it a bit, even if Dragaerans themselves never give > >> birth to twins, they may be familiar with other species (including > >> Easterners) that do sometimes give birth to twins. > > > >Animal husbandry should give them the concept of multiple births. However > >it may not follow that they know the concept of "identical" twins or that > >humans or Easterners might have multiple births. I don't recall any > >mention of such in the texts personally but I'm hardly as encyclopedic as > >some others here. > > > > > > > Animal husbandry combined with the genetic science that they have shown > to have will give them such understanding. I wouldn't be surprised if > they could create identical twins when desired for some royal or noble > inheritance purpose. Steve is setting us up so that when he has Zerika cloned we won't have to suspend our disbelief too much. Jeff From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:01:40 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:01:40 -0800 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > > > > > > You forgot the circumflex in "K?nas". > > > > > > > I am struck by the extreme justice of this observation. > > And also by a large yellow brick. > > > Where was Kasnas? Somewhere near Misery? Google has the answer: "Kasn?s is located at the southernmost tip of the island of Kimito in the beautiful archipelago." Here's the exact co-ordinates of Kasnas. "The Kasn?s visitor's marina is situated at 59?55,2 N - 22?24,5 E." All you need to do is connect your silver shoes to your GPS, and Ilmarinen's your uncle. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:02:04 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:02:04 -0700 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: References: <004f01c5f5c4$048705c0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512022055i25ef2204y3945be83615adad6@mail.gmail.com> <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512121202w4a000acmaba1c017f12d4d61@mail.gmail.com> On 12/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > "Parse error, which crushed under house." > Whoa, my bad. Somehow I sent that to the wrong list. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051212/6e5eff12/attachment.html From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:07:22 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:07:22 -0700 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512121207k2bfcd736x3e2087328af4c41b@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/05, Grady Brandt wrote: > Animal husbandry should give them the concept of multiple births. However > it may not follow that they know the concept of "identical" twins or that > humans or Easterners might have multiple births. I don't recall any > mention of such in the texts personally but I'm hardly as encyclopedic as > some others here. > It's worth mentioning that we have no guarantees that Easterners are human as we know humans[1], any more than Han Solo. (We just assume he is because he looks like one.) Even if they are, they've been modified by the Jenoine for increased psychic abilities, and perhaps in other ways as well. Your point is well taken that Easterners do not necessarily have multiple births. Max [1] Sure, Vlad says Easterners are the real "humans," but Morrolan would disagree. Aliera would just roll her eyes, and Sethra would smile enigmatically. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:24:18 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:24:18 -0800 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512121202w4a000acmaba1c017f12d4d61@mail.gmail.com> References: <004f01c5f5c4$048705c0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512022055i25ef2204y3945be83615adad6@mail.gmail.com> <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0512121202w4a000acmaba1c017f12d4d61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > > "Parse error, which crushed under house." > > > > Whoa, my bad. Somehow I sent that to the wrong list. > But had you not, then I should not have ever learned that there was a programming language called "Oz", and a front-end called "Gump". The amusement value was well worth it. To me, at least. From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Mon Dec 12 12:26:27 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:26:27 -0500 Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512121202w4a000acmaba1c017f12d4d61@mail.gmail.com> References: <004f01c5f5c4$048705c0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512022055i25ef2204y3945be83615adad6@mail.gmail.com> <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0512121202w4a000acmaba1c017f12d4d61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:02:04 -0500, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." >> "Parse error, which crushed under house." >> > > Whoa, my bad. Somehow I sent that to the wrong list. > > Max > > -- We seem to have enjoyed it anyway :) -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 13:04:06 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:04:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re Re: A priority queue & A nice ADT packaging style In-Reply-To: References: <004f01c5f5c4$048705c0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512022055i25ef2204y3945be83615adad6@mail.gmail.com> <045301c5fe43$4cc59bd0$6400a8c0@Mobilus> <2ddbda5f0512110933ucf89f11mb4907aac2c19d83d@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0512121202w4a000acmaba1c017f12d4d61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 12/12/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 12/11/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > "Stack overflow: I don't think we're in Kanas anymore." > > > "Parse error, which crushed under house." > > > > > > > Whoa, my bad. Somehow I sent that to the wrong list. I wonder how the other list felt about the comment on the effect of the plural of "jhegaala" on Mario still being alive. From scott at cjhunter.com Sat Nov 12 13:14:44 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:14:44 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Much of what we know about The Cycle is second-hand hearsay, but its existence as an actual thing or entity appears undeniable. If we believe Paarfi (a dangerous practice, to be sure), The Cycle (referring to the actual construct rather than the abstract idea of a succession of Emporers) is able to perpetuate the Cycle (succession) regardless of the current state of the Houses. The question I'm pondering is whether this can happen at any time or if there needs to be a minimal population to work with. Is a House an abstract idea or is the House destroyed when there ceases to be anyone qualified for membership? This is important to the extent that any tricks that restore House Phoenix require the living presence of Zerika. >From a real-world genetic perspective there are plenty of latent Phoenix genes around. We don't know what happens to Phoenix children who are not privileged to have a phoenix fly overhead at their birth. Those people and/or their descendants are likely to still be around someplace, perhaps unaware of their parentage. The mixed stock of Greenaire and Elde probably also have some recessive Phoenix genes, waiting for that one in a gazillion chance to breed a true-blooded Phoenix complete with birth-herald. Given that, it seems that The Cycle could delay action on resurrecting House Phoenix until very nearly the turn of the Cycle. Indeed, the arrival of one or several Phoenix from out of nothing, as it were, might well be seen as a sign that the Cycle had turned if it happened towards the end of the Athyra reign. Given the confusing lecture by Verra and her sisters in _Sethra Lavode_, I'd almost expect destruction of the House to be a pre-requisite for it's renewal. This might well explain why Zerika, engaging in her own brand of decadence with her Eastern lover, seems well on the way to dieing without an heir. It's always possible that she's got some wizards working on the problem and we just haven't heard about it. However, it might also be that Sethra made a metaphysical error by attempting to protect and nurture the previous line of House Phoenix. The House might be unable to truly "rise from the ashes" until it has truly been consumed entirely in flames. Assuming that Zerika DOES die childless, what happens to the assets and titles that belong to House Phoenix? Are they put in trust and managed by a steward appointed by Zerika? Are they appropriated by the Empress to dispose of she wishes? If the latter, it could provide an interesting problem when the Cycle-created Heir finally did make an appearance some Turns down the road. Of course, the death of Zerika might finally herald the true death of the House, thus triggering its ACTUAL rebirth,perhaps even on the same day. At the moment of Zerika's death, a phoenix appears above the Phoenix Wing. It's discovered that two women, descended from "unheralded" Phoenix ancestors, have simultaneously given birth; one boy, one girl. Perhaps a veritable "flock" of phoenices appear above Adrilankha as a dozen infants are born who all scan to be true-blooded Phoenix. The question of which should be Heir would be a tricky one with much intrigue based around the determination of the answer. While I like the image of the Heir who appears from nowhere at the turn of the Cycle, I'd probably favor the ressurection at Zerika's death just because we might actually see that story published someday. :-P From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 14:05:55 2005 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:05:55 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: >From: "Scott Schultz" >To: >Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:14:44 -0800 > >Assuming that Zerika DOES die childless, what happens to the assets and >titles that belong to House Phoenix? Are they put in trust and managed by a >steward appointed by Zerika? Are they appropriated by the Empress to >dispose >of she wishes? If the latter, it could provide an interesting problem when >the Cycle-created Heir finally did make an appearance some Turns down the >road. personally, i'm of the belief that Sethra Lavode would be the best person to handle the Phoenix assets and titles, simply because she has no loyalty to any one House. Her actions with Norathar's parentage could be seen as loyalty to the House of the Dragon, but considering her knowledge of Dragons, being that all her close friends are Dragons (that we know about anyways), she probably recognized that to undermine the Dragon Council would be seen as a mortal insult to the House. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 12 14:26:15 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:26:15 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 11/12/05 01:14 PM To cc Subject How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Assuming that Zerika DOES die childless, what happens to the assets and >titles that belong to House Phoenix? Are they put in trust and managed by a >steward appointed by Zerika? Are they appropriated by the Empress to dispose >of she wishes? If the latter, it could provide an interesting problem when >the Cycle-created Heir finally did make an appearance some Turns down the >road. Any material assets would be probably be held in trust by the Empire, likely in the care of the Imperial archives (under the control of the House of the Lyorn), along with the less concrete things (such as a record of proper titles, inheritance, qualified Heirs, etc). As to how the Phoenix will rise again--this is one subject I really hesitate to spend too much time speculating on, since I have the distinct impression that Steve's got something up his sleeve, and I don't want to ruin it by maybe stumbling into what it is (or at least onto a significant part of it) ahead of time. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 12 14:28:26 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:28:26 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "S. Hall" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/12/05 02:05 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >personally, i'm of the belief that Sethra Lavode would be the best person to >handle the Phoenix assets and titles, simply because she has no loyalty to >any one House. Her actions with Norathar's parentage could be seen as >loyalty to the House of the Dragon, but considering her knowledge of >Dragons, being that all her close friends are Dragons (that we know about >anyways), she probably recognized that to undermine the Dragon Council would >be seen as a mortal insult to the House. Sethra? Impartial? HAH. Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur Mountain for Verra-knows-how-long. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 14:34:54 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:34:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > Much of what we know about The Cycle is second-hand hearsay, but its > existence as an actual thing or entity appears undeniable. As opposed to first-hand? Not sure who would be qualified to discuss the Cycle outside the Person behind it. Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix isn't going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 14:42:57 2005 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:42:57 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >To: "S. Hall" >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info,dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:28:26 -0800 > >"S. Hall" >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >12/12/05 02:05 PM > >To >dragaera at dragaera.info >cc > >Subject >RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? > >Sethra? Impartial? > >HAH. >Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur Mountain for >Verra-knows-how-long. > >Majikjon well, thats true, but i consider it to be stupidity on the part of the House of the Dzur for allowing people to go do that. I do wonder though, whether or not they only send those that the Elders or Council of the House find to be inadequate to hold the position of 'Hero,' so they're sent to their deaths purposely. It's also possible that since the mountain is shaped like a Dzur, some in the House believe it to be the rightful property of a pure-blood Dzur, not someone with the features of a Dzur and a Dragon, like Sethra has, so they send the more easily-persuaded aspiring Heros. Some in the House must recognize what Sethra does though, like protecting Dragaera from the Jenione, which would mean that if someone actually happened to kill Sethra, everyone is screwed. You also have to consider that House Phoenix assets and titles would be needed for the continuation of the empire, since only Teckla are peasants, any Phoenix that should arise would need their own estate, to at least adhere to the vision of proper lifestyle. Sethra is all about the continuation of the Empire, which would make her a good choice. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 12 14:49:47 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:49:47 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "S. Hall" 12/12/05 02:42 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera at dragaera.info, dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info Subject RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >>Sethra? Impartial? >> >>HAH. >>Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur Mountain for >>Verra-knows-how-long. >> >>Majikjon > >well, thats true, but i consider it to be stupidity on the part of the House >of the Dzur for allowing people to go do that. I do wonder though, whether >or not they only send those that the Elders or Council of the House find to >be inadequate to hold the position of 'Hero,' so they're sent to their >deaths purposely. It's also possible that since the mountain is shaped like >a Dzur, some in the House believe it to be the rightful property of a >pure-blood Dzur, not someone with the features of a Dzur and a Dragon, like >Sethra has, so they send the more easily-persuaded aspiring Heros. > I always got the impression that the Dzur Heroes that attack Dzur Mountain took it upon themselves to do so... Like when Tazendra talks about her cousin who died attacking D-- er, he died on a quest. >Some in the House must recognize what Sethra does though, like protecting >Dragaera from the Jenione, which would mean that if someone actually >happened to kill Sethra, everyone is screwed. Not necessarily. Someone apparently DID kill her once, in fact, and she's still going like the Energizer Bunny. And there's always the chance that she may finally find an Apprentice who can take her place (instead of trying to kill her) as Paarfi implied was her goal at one point. That raises an interesting point, actually. Perhaps it was one of Sethra's previous apprentices that did her in? Would make sense. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Sat Nov 12 15:21:59 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:21:59 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33c401c5e7df$e1a30e10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient > arising for anything more to seem de trop. Which is why it may, in fact, be a red herring metaphysically speaking. While admirable and certainly a wonderful metaphor for death and rebirth, Zerika's feat had a reasonably good chance of success. Vlad's trip through the Paths proved that any strong-willed person with proper training can arrive in the Halls of Judgement. The trick is getting back out again. Zerika knew the Orb was there and she knew it was hers by divine right. The only way she might have failed in the end is if she was cowed by the Lords of Judgement. In other words, while an amazing feat, it doesn't represent the death and rebirth of House Phoenix, though it certainly represents the death and rebirth of the Empire. However, we've already seen that the Cycle will go on its merry way regardless of the Empire. We don't really know what effect the loss of one of its component Houses might have. > And, unless she's got a > magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix isn't > going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. Indeed. Hence, the theory that Zerika's death is, in fact, neccesary in order to trigger the birth of this new "flock of Phoenix". The Phoenix must actually die before it can be reborn. That's its nature. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 15:25:56 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <33c401c5e7df$e1a30e10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <33c401c5e7df$e1a30e10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient > > arising for anything more to seem de trop. > [snippage] > In other words, while an amazing feat, it doesn't represent the death and > rebirth of House Phoenix, though it certainly represents the death and > rebirth of the Empire. Didn't Zerika version 0 do the same thing as the modern Zerika, and didn't the act represent the death and rebirth of House Phoenix (plus the cycle) in both cases? From scott at cjhunter.com Sat Nov 12 15:39:17 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:39:17 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <33d801c5e7e2$4bf5eb00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Didn't Zerika version 0 do the same thing as the modern Zerika, > and didn't the act represent the death and rebirth of House Phoenix > (plus the cycle) in both cases? Zerika the First created the Orb thanks to divine inspiration. She didn't have to leave the earthly plane that we know of. From pulmon at mac.com Mon Dec 12 15:37:11 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:37:11 -0500 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2005, at 1:33 PM, Grady Brandt wrote: > On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:21:29 -0500, Davdi Silverrock > wrote: > >> On 12/9/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> Thinking about it a bit, even if Dragaerans themselves never give >> birth to twins, they may be familiar with other species (including >> Easterners) that do sometimes give birth to twins. > > Animal husbandry should give them the concept of multiple births. > However it may not follow that they know the concept of "identical" > twins or that humans or Easterners might have multiple births. I > don't recall any mention of such in the texts personally but I'm > hardly as encyclopedic as some others here. > By Verra's tits! at least Vlad is aware of the twins.... From pulmon at mac.com Mon Dec 12 15:38:09 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:38:09 -0500 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: <439DC4AA.8080201@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4E2CF8CE-EA35-4E63-9650-EC89D56E4ED9@mac.com> >>> >>> >> Animal husbandry combined with the genetic science that they have >> shown >> to have will give them such understanding. I wouldn't be >> surprised if >> they could create identical twins when desired for some royal or >> noble >> inheritance purpose. > Steve is setting us up so that when he has Zerika cloned we won't > have to > suspend our disbelief too much. > > Jeff > listinfo/dragaera So that we can then have an Ice Queen Clone? From pulmon at mac.com Mon Dec 12 15:40:09 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:40:09 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> Much of what we know about The Cycle is second-hand hearsay, but its >> existence as an actual thing or entity appears undeniable. > > As opposed to first-hand? Not sure who would be qualified to discuss > the Cycle outside the Person behind it. > > Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient > arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a > magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix isn't > going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. Going by analogy, perhaps Freemartins are not unknown among the Lyorn? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 15:45:51 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <33d801c5e7e2$4bf5eb00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <33d801c5e7e2$4bf5eb00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Didn't Zerika version 0 do the same thing as the modern Zerika, > > and didn't the act represent the death and rebirth of House Phoenix > > (plus the cycle) in both cases? > > Zerika the First created the Orb thanks to divine inspiration. She didn't > have to leave the earthly plane that we know of. Then what's her symbolic death/rebirth? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 15:51:27 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:51:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > By Verra's tits! at least Vlad is aware of the twins.... Umm, do we know that it's not quadruplets or ...? From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 17:45:13 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:45:13 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512121745j574f11ahbdf4fd588b6002f0@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/05, S. Hall wrote: > personally, i'm of the belief that Sethra Lavode would be the best person to > handle the Phoenix assets and titles, simply because she has no loyalty to > any one House. Her actions with Norathar's parentage could be seen as > loyalty to the House of the Dragon, but considering her knowledge of > Dragons, being that all her close friends are Dragons (that we know about > anyways), [snip] I had the impression that Tukko was a Dzur. Something about his name. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 17:47:04 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:47:04 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512121747p409d3a33rab78ff99a3380469@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/05, Philip Hart wrote: > arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a > magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix isn't > going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. Although a tiny gene pool *would* lead to some interestingly-decadent Phoenixes, from the mildly-decadent Hapsburg style to the totally whacked-out Caligula stuff. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 17:56:21 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:56:21 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 11/12/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > > From a real-world genetic perspective there are plenty of latent Phoenix > genes around. We don't know what happens to Phoenix children who are not > privileged to have a phoenix fly overhead at their birth. Those people > and/or their descendants are likely to still be around someplace, perhaps > unaware of their parentage. The mixed stock of Greenaire and Elde probably > also have some recessive Phoenix genes, waiting for that one in a gazillion > chance to breed a true-blooded Phoenix complete with birth-herald. I don't think the populations of Greenaere or Elde Island count, because they seem to have rejected the Cycle. However, do not forget that there is an entire House made up entirely of crossbreeds, which House is in fact also ruled by the Cycle. Hm. I've always been skeptical about the whole "phoenix flying over the birth of a true Phoenix" business; it sounds too much like something Vlad misunderstood. Perhaps the reason he misunderstood is because no-one wants to be blunt and explain that the reason that there are (or rather, were) so few true Phoenix, is that Phoenix, being often decadent, slept around with absolutely anybody, and didn't even bother trying to prevent pregnancies, and therefore many of their poor bastard crossbreed offspring had no other choice than to become Jhereg. But that also explains how the House could be reborn, and the rather gnomic suggestions about what could speculatively be recessives that the Lords of Judgement were mumbling about. It might well prove to be interesting that at some point that out of the corruption of the Jhereg arises the Phoenix again. Hm. I think that's a rationalization worthy of Speculation:Phoenix. > > It's always possible that she's got some wizards working on the problem and > we just haven't heard about it. However, it might also be that Sethra made a > metaphysical error by attempting to protect and nurture the previous line of > House Phoenix. The House might be unable to truly "rise from the ashes" > until it has truly been consumed entirely in flames. I think you're generalizing from your understanding of how the phoenix of Greek legend worked, rather than how the phoenix of Dragaera works. We don't have enough information about the latter. Although that should not stop you from speculating as pararectally as possible, always keeping in mind that it is in fact pararectal. > Assuming that Zerika DOES die childless, what happens to the assets and > titles that belong to House Phoenix? Are they put in trust and managed by a > steward appointed by Zerika? Are they appropriated by the Empress to > dispose of she wishes? Eh, give the problem to the Iorich to chew on for a while. I'm willing to bet that they would take so long to hash it out that the House of the Phoenix would be reborn before they settle the matter. > > Of course, the death of Zerika might finally herald the true death of the > House, thus triggering its ACTUAL rebirth,perhaps even on the same day. At > the moment of Zerika's death, a phoenix appears above the Phoenix Wing. It's > discovered that two women, descended from "unheralded" Phoenix ancestors, That is to say, crossbreed bastards. > have simultaneously given birth; one boy, one girl. Perhaps a veritable > "flock" of phoenices appear above Adrilankha as a dozen infants are born who > all scan to be true-blooded Phoenix. The question of which should be Heir > would be a tricky one with much intrigue based around the determination of > the answer. > They could always query the Orb as to how House Phoenix *used* to do it. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 18:01:07 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:01:07 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient > > arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a > > magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix isn't > > going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. > > Going by analogy, perhaps Freemartins are not unknown among the Lyorn? > I don't understand what you are trying to say here. According to various references, freemartins occur only among bovines (and perhaps also other ruminants), so... what *is* your point? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 18:05:46 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:05:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > > On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > > > > Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient > > > arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a > > > magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix isn't > > > going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. > > > > Going by analogy, perhaps Freemartins are not unknown among the Lyorn? > > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Ditto. Free martinis? (Aerich as Athos might well appreciate those.) Freemasons? Free Martians? (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/3773/waroftheworlds/martians/society.html) From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 18:11:11 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:11:11 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Sethra? Impartial? > > HAH. > Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur Mountain for > Verra-knows-how-long. > I am sure that they would all agree that she quite impartially defended herself (successfully, except maybe that one time) from their attacks. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 18:16:00 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > Sethra? Impartial? > > > > HAH. > > Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur Mountain for > > Verra-knows-how-long. > > > > I am sure that they would all agree that she quite impartially > defended herself (successfully, except maybe that one time) from their > attacks. Kinda doubt we wouldn't have heard about the one Dzur hero who made it back to tell the tale. I suspect Sethra just died one day of old age. Or maybe she killed herself, out of boredom or in need of a quick way to chat with the gods. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 18:31:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:31:01 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Sethra? Impartial? > > > > > > HAH. > > > Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur Mountain for > > > Verra-knows-how-long. > > > > > > > I am sure that they would all agree that she quite impartially > > defended herself (successfully, except maybe that one time) from their > > attacks. > > Kinda doubt we wouldn't have heard about the one Dzur hero who made it > back to tell the tale. Perhaps this was Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur, and he didn't make it back because, given the way time works in the Paths of the Dead, Sethra returned before she left, as it were. > I suspect Sethra just died one day of old age. Or maybe she killed > herself, out of boredom or in need of a quick way to chat with the gods. SKZB, speaking for SL, regarding the Lavode Scandal: "I was just having a post-life crisis." From pulmon at mac.com Mon Dec 12 19:13:20 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:13:20 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> >> On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Philip Hart wrote: >> > >>> >>> Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient >>> arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a >>> magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix >>> isn't >>> going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. >> >> Going by analogy, perhaps Freemartins are not unknown among the >> Lyorn? >> > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here. According to > various references, freemartins occur only among bovines (and perhaps > also other ruminants), so... what *is* your point? Lyorns are bovine...perhaps Dragaerans with Lyorn genetic material are susceptible to similar reproductive events. In that case, perhaps the Jenoine imported some of the that genetic trait also into the Phoenix...making a haploid Phoenix a possibility! From pulmon at mac.com Mon Dec 12 19:14:04 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:14:04 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> Message-ID: <06170D17-2570-48D2-B603-27EE0BDA1B9A@mac.com> On Dec 12, 2005, at 9:05 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >>> >>> On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Philip Hart wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>>> Anyway, Zerika having returned from the Paths seems like sufficient >>>> arising for anything more to seem de trop. And, unless she's got a >>>> magically perfect genome, anything less than a flock of Phoenix >>>> isn't >>>> going to provide a self-sustainingly diverse genetic population. >>> >>> Going by analogy, perhaps Freemartins are not unknown among the >>> Lyorn? >>> >> >> I don't understand what you are trying to say here. > > Ditto. Free martinis? (Aerich as Athos might well appreciate > those.) Freemasons? Free Martians? Freemartins are the result of parthenogenesis--one egg, no sperm, no waiting, no wooing. From shawnb at stanford.edu Mon Dec 12 20:14:57 2005 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:14:57 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200512130415.jBD4EvNf016250@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 6:16 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? > > > > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 12/12/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sethra? Impartial? > > > > > > HAH. > > > Tell that to all those Dzur Heroes who've been attacking Dzur > > > Mountain for Verra-knows-how-long. > > > > > > > I am sure that they would all agree that she quite impartially > > defended herself (successfully, except maybe that one time) > from their > > attacks. > > Kinda doubt we wouldn't have heard about the one Dzur hero > who made it back to tell the tale. I think Sethra quite impartially defends herself against any member of any House who(m?) is stupid enough to attack up Dzur Mountain. It just so happens that most of these intrepid fame-seekers are Dzur. So from the fact that she's killed a lot of Dzur, it does not follow without another premise that she is somehow biased against them. Cheers, Shawn From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Mon Dec 12 20:31:27 2005 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:31:27 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <200512130415.jBD4EvNf016250@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >From: "Shawn Burns" >To: "'Dragaera List'" >Subject: RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:14:57 -0800 > > > >I think Sethra quite impartially defends herself against any member of any >House who(m?) is stupid enough to attack up Dzur Mountain. It just so >happens that most of these intrepid fame-seekers are Dzur. So from the fact >that she's killed a lot of Dzur, it does not follow without another premise >that she is somehow biased against them. > >Cheers, >Shawn doesn't she do worse than kill them though? I thought she turned them into reptiles and sent them back, with all the humiliation that involves From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 20:47:22 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:47:22 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512122047g106e791boda53ba8901273110@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/05, Philip Hart wrote: > Ditto. Free martinis? (Aerich as Athos might well appreciate > those.) Freemasons? Free Martians? Freemartins: female cows that act male, to the point of attempting to mate with females in heat. Apparently freemartins always have a male twin. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com Mon Dec 12 22:47:18 2005 From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:47:18 -0600 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > >> By Verra's tits! at least Vlad is aware of the twins.... > > Umm, do we know that it's not quadruplets or ...? Well if it's not 2 my money is on 17. *runs away* From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 23:30:58 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:30:58 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > On Dec 12, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > >> Going by analogy, perhaps Freemartins are not unknown among the > >> Lyorn? > >> > > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here. According to > > various references, freemartins occur only among bovines (and perhaps > > also other ruminants), so... what *is* your point? > > Lyorns are bovine... They most certainly are not. "Next is the lyorn, which looks like a medium-size golden-haired dog, except for the horn sticking out of the middle of its head. The Lyorn represents tradition." http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Lyorn_%28animal%29 From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 23:45:07 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:45:07 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <06170D17-2570-48D2-B603-27EE0BDA1B9A@mac.com> References: <330801c5e7ce$1a590cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <917A8A66-3530-48D3-9F84-710E4A356424@mac.com> <06170D17-2570-48D2-B603-27EE0BDA1B9A@mac.com> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > Freemartins are the result of parthenogenesis > They most certainly are not. [Begin Cite] When a heifer twin shares the uterus with a bull fetus, they also share the placental membranes connecting the fetuses with the dam. A joining of the placental membranes occurs at about the fortieth day of pregnancy, and thereafter, the fluids of the two fetuses are mixed. This causes exchange of blood and antigens carrying characteristics that are unique to each heifers and bulls. When these antigens mix, they affect each other in a way that causes each to develop with some characteristics of the other sex. Although the male twin in this case is only affected by reduced fertility, in over ninety percent of the cases, the female twin is completely infertile. Because of a transfer of hormones or a transfer of cells, the heifer's reproductive tract is severely underdeveloped and sometimes even contains some elements of a bull's reproductive tract. A freemartin is genetically female, but has many characteristics of a male. The ovaries of the freemartin do not develop correctly, and they remain very small. [...skip a bit...] In some cases, there are no symptoms of freemartinism because the male twin may have been aborted at an earlier stage of gestation. [End Cite] Research! How hard is it, given Google? Thus endeth today's lesson in developmental biology in cattle. > >--one egg, no sperm, no waiting, no wooing. > Nonsense. Now, if you had said originally: "Perhaps Phoenix can reproduce parthenogenetically, especially with post-Interregnum reproductive sorcery", I wouldn't have anything to carp about. But if you're going to make statements which are easily refuted with two seconds of research, then, well, you'll have to expect to be easily refuted. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Dec 13 06:06:15 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 06:06:15 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512121745j574f11ahbdf4fd588b6002f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/12/05 05:45 PM To "S. Hall" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >I had the impression that Tukko was a Dzur. Something about his name. > >Max Davdi and I had a discussion on this very topic on the wikicity a while back... See: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Tukko Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Dec 13 06:36:28 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 06:36:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/12/05 05:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >I don't think the populations of Greenaere or Elde Island count, >because they seem to have rejected the Cycle. > I'm not sure if this is really a fair statement. Certainly, the residents of Greenaere and Elde reject the *Empire*, but do we know their feelings as to the *Cycle*? >However, do not forget that there is an entire House made up entirely >of crossbreeds, which House is in fact also ruled by the Cycle. Not to mention that full-bred members of other houses can join the Jhereg if they really want to (given some compelling motivation, see Norathar). How many full-bread Phoenix are there in the Jhereg right now that only need to be re-admitted to the House in order to count? >I've always been skeptical about the whole "phoenix flying over the >birth of a true Phoenix" business; it sounds too much like something >Vlad misunderstood. Perhaps the reason he misunderstood is because >no-one wants to be blunt and explain that the reason that there are >(or rather, were) so few true Phoenix, is that Phoenix, being often >decadent, slept around with absolutely anybody, and didn't even bother >trying to prevent pregnancies, and therefore many of their poor >bastard crossbreed offspring had no other choice than to become >Jhereg. But that also explains how the House could be reborn, and the >rather gnomic suggestions about what could speculatively be recessives >that the Lords of Judgement were mumbling about. It might well prove >to be interesting that at some point that out of the corruption of the >Jhereg arises the Phoenix again. I've noticed that every time Vlad thinks the Dragaerans are being metaphorical, he seems to be mistaken. > Hm. I think that's a rationalization worthy of Speculation:Phoenix. Indeed. Hurry up and write it so I can add my counterpoint in... ;-) >Eh, give the problem to the Iorich to chew on for a while. I'm >willing to bet that they would take so long to hash it out that the >House of the Phoenix would be reborn before they settle the matter. Making thousands of Imperials for some lucky bunch of advocates, no doubt. >They could always query the Orb as to how House Phoenix *used* to do it. Used to do it when? So far as we know, Zerika the First was the last reborn Phoenix (before Zerika IV), so if the House did indeed die off and get reborn, then that all happened before the Orb came along, so it wouldn't remember what they did before. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051213/c08a1c4d/attachment.htm From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Dec 13 06:41:41 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 06:41:41 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/12/05 06:16 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Kinda doubt we wouldn't have heard about the one Dzur hero who made it >back to tell the tale. Just because someone killed her doesn't mean that someone survived the encounter. >I suspect Sethra just died one day of old age. Or maybe she killed >herself, out of boredom or in need of a quick way to chat with the gods. I'd say the likely suspects are: a) The Apprentice did it. (Not StY, likely an earlier one) b) The Jenoine did it. (In one of those attacks on the Empire we haven't learned about yet, maybe?) c) Verra did it. (No love lost there, as we see in Issola.) d) The butler did it. (Tukko just thought she was getting uppity.) Majikjon From aruspex.delve at verizon.net Tue Dec 13 06:44:57 2005 From: aruspex.delve at verizon.net (Grady Brandt) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:44:57 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:36:28 -0500, wrote: > Davdi Silverrock > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 12/12/05 05:56 PM > > To > Dragaera List > cc > > Subject > Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? > > > > >> I don't think the populations of Greenaere or Elde Island count, >> because they seem to have rejected the Cycle. >> > > I'm not sure if this is really a fair statement. Certainly, the residents > of Greenaere and Elde reject the *Empire*, but do we know their feelings > as to the *Cycle*? And more importantly I think, does the Cycle care about their feelings toward itself. -- Everything works in Theory. I need to learn how to program in Theory. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 13 06:49:06 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:49:06 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davdi Silverrock" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:45 AM Subject: Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? I wouldn't have anything to carp about. But if you're going to make statements which are easily refuted with two seconds of research, then, well, you'll have to expect to be easily refuted. Pardon us, while my friends and I decide if we shall have the honor of refuting you? -Khaveern of Castlerock, Ensign of the Imperial Debate Team Jeff From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Dec 13 06:51:59 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:51:59 -0700 Subject: Twins References: <439DC4AA.8080201@brazee.net> <4E2CF8CE-EA35-4E63-9650-EC89D56E4ED9@mac.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Gorelick" To: "Jeff G." Cc: Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Twins > >>> > >>> > >> Animal husbandry combined with the genetic science that they have > >> shown > >> to have will give them such understanding. I wouldn't be > >> surprised if > >> they could create identical twins when desired for some royal or > >> noble > >> inheritance purpose. > > Steve is setting us up so that when he has Zerika cloned we won't > > have to > > suspend our disbelief too much. > > > > Jeff > > listinfo/dragaera > > So that we can then have an Ice Queen Clone? Only if they clone her on a sundae. Jeff From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 07:59:10 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 07:59:10 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3cd601c5e86b$2f864300$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > Zerika the First created the Orb thanks to divine > inspiration. She didn't > > have to leave the earthly plane that we know of. > > Then what's her symbolic death/rebirth? She didn't have one that we've heard about. From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 08:26:51 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:26:51 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3d2f01c5e86f$0d76f1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I'm not sure if this is really a fair statement. Certainly, > the residents > of Greenaere and Elde reject the *Empire*, but do we know > their feelings > as to the *Cycle*? > The Cycle only directly affects those outside of the Empire to the extent that the current administration is friendly to them or not. They probably don't think about it much. Regardless, it's not a question of the Cycle but of the gene pool. Elde and Greenaire don't practice the pure-breeding program followed in the Empire. As long as there were a few Phoenix who moved there in the past and adopted local culture, then there is the potential for a true-blooded Phoenix to be born to otherwise unremarkable parents. Granted, the odds are astronomical but if the Cycle itself intervenes then we're looking at what is effectively divine intervention. > > >However, do not forget that there is an entire House made up entirely > >of crossbreeds, which House is in fact also ruled by the Cycle. You're referring to the Yendi cuckoo theory? > How many full-bread Phoenix are there in the Jhereg right now > that only > need to be re-admitted to the House in order to count? Possible but if it was that easy then you'd think Zerika would already have tracked down such people and begun rebuilding the House. > Used to do it when? So far as we know, Zerika the First was the last > reborn Phoenix (before Zerika IV), so if the House did indeed > die off and > get reborn, then that all happened before the Orb came along, so it > wouldn't remember what they did before. > Majikjon There seems to be a common conception of Zerika I as a Reborn Phoenix. Zerika I was not "reborn". She was simply "first". Before her there was no House and the Cycle itself might even have been in flux. Remember that there were 34(?) tribes when the great migration started and Kieron and Zerika began building the Empire. There was no rebirth because there had yet to be a death. "Our" Zerika is the first Reborn Phoenix. From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 08:58:02 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 08:58:02 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3d4601c5e873$68931580$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > Of course, the death of Zerika might finally herald the > true death of the > > House, thus triggering its ACTUAL rebirth,perhaps even on > the same day. At > > the moment of Zerika's death, a phoenix appears above the > Phoenix Wing. It's > > discovered that two women, descended from "unheralded" > Phoenix ancestors, > > That is to say, crossbreed bastards. > Maybe. Again we don't know what happens to the "unqualified" children. It might well be that those keep to themselves and do manage to keep the line pure. In any case, what does Empress Norathar do when presented with children that pass every genetic scan applied to them in spite of having questionable parentage? Especially if those children are "heralded"? Even if Aliera's science of genetics isn't precisely the same as ours, the underlying concepts appear to be the same. Geneticists would know that throwbacks were theoretically possible and the sudden presence of many of them would surely be taken as a sign that the Gods had intervened to re-create the House. See, the parents matter for establishing rights and titles, but the genes matter when it comes to membership in the House. If the children pass the scan then they're eligible. It becomes a political problem at that point. With no existing members of the House alive to object, it's pretty much up to the discretion of the Empress and her advisors. The Empire requires a House of the Phoenix so I can't imagine that there'd be any question of declaring the Houseto be re-established. It would be more a matter of shaping the newly reborn House and getting whatever advantage that various groups and individuals might try to procure for themselves in the process. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Dec 13 10:11:58 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:11:58 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <3d2f01c5e86f$0d76f1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 11/13/05 08:26 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >> How many pure-bred Phoenix are there in the Jhereg right now >> that only >> need to be re-admitted to the House in order to count? > >Possible but if it was that easy then you'd think Zerika would already have >tracked down such people and begun rebuilding the House. Do you pretend that the Empress would be seen consorting with lowly Jhereg? (Her little chats with Vlad not withstanding). >> Used to do it when? So far as we know, Zerika the First was the last >> reborn Phoenix (before Zerika IV), so if the House did indeed >> die off and >> get reborn, then that all happened before the Orb came along, so it >> wouldn't remember what they did before. > >"Our" Zerika is the first Reborn Phoenix. Ummm... Text evidence? >There seems to be a common conception of Zerika I as a Reborn Phoenix. >Zerika I was not "reborn". She was simply "first". Before her there was no >House and the Cycle itself might even have been in flux. Remember that there >were 34(?) tribes when the great migration started and Kieron and Zerika >began building the Empire. There was no rebirth because there had yet to be >a death. There may have not been a "House" but (as you yourself point out) there were tribes. (According to SL in Issola, the correct number was 31.) We have no way of knowing, so far as I can determine, whether Zerika is considered "reborn" Phoenix or not, or whether she was the only Phoenix alive at the time the Empire was founded, or if her entire house had died previously, or any of it. I would postulate, however, that the Empire being founded (while important) was not really a major event to the *cycle* itself, and quite likely, the cycle had been affecting the fortunes of the tribes since long before the Empire came about. (In fact, it seems likely that the cycle itself is the very reason that 31 tribes dwindled to 17, and that the Jhereg had their place in Empire... It wasn't the Empire that created the cycle to be this way, it was the cycle that caused the Empire to "naturally" be set up this way; regardless of what various Shaman and Lyorn Warriors (who killed Kieron over the Jhereg thing) may have wanted.) As a result of the cycle's influence, I'd say it's quite likely that the whole Phoenix death-rebirth thing has been going on for a lot longer than the Empire itself, and that every 17 cycles the entire bunch dies out, and we have a reborn one. (Of which we know of only the most recent two, Zerika I and Zerika IV.) But in any event, this all happened before the Orb, so consulting it wouldn't tell us the answer (which was my original point, I think. I'm having trouble remembering at this point. ;-) ) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 11:01:13 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:01:13 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >>"Our" Zerika is the first Reborn Phoenix. >Ummm... Text evidence? Actually, it's the lack of any textev stating that Zerika I was a Reborn Phoenix. From what we've been told she was sent visions, which she heeded and by doing so she created the foundation of what eventually became the Empire. >As a result of the cycle's influence, I'd say it's quite likely that the whole >Phoenix death-rebirth thing has been going on for a lot longer than the Empire >itself, and that every 17 cycles the entire bunch dies out, and we have a reborn >one. (Of which we know of only the most recent two, Zerika I and Zerika IV.) Granted things get shaky in that we don't know "when" the Halls came into being in relation to the founding of the Empire; nor do we really know if The Cycle was constructed by the Lords or if it preceded them. We don't know if The Cycle encouraged particular tribes and discouraged others or if it simply reflects the current makeup of The Empire. Still, I have some difficulty with the idea of it being a Great Cycle between the Revolt and the Migration. The Easterners ought to have overrun the world in the meantime. (Note that the Gods could have had a hand in preventing such an occurrence.) >But in any event, this all happened before the Orb, so consulting it wouldn't >tell us the answer (which was my original point, I think. I'm having trouble >remembering at this point. ;-) ) No argument there. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 11:43:23 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:43:23 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <3d2f01c5e86f$0d76f1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <3d2f01c5e86f$0d76f1c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 11/13/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > > >However, do not forget that there is an entire House made up entirely > > >of crossbreeds, which House is in fact also ruled by the Cycle. > > You're referring to the Yendi cuckoo theory? Cuckoos are not the same as crossbreeds. However, all Jhereg (except for an exceedingly small number of possible exceptions) are crossbreeds, since the Empire began. > > How many full-bread Phoenix are there in the Jhereg right now > > that only need to be re-admitted to the House in order to count? > > Possible but if it was that easy then you'd think Zerika would already have > tracked down such people and begun rebuilding the House. Or for that matter, they'd have been mentioned by the Gods. Or *someone*. > > There seems to be a common conception of Zerika I as a Reborn Phoenix. > Zerika I was not "reborn". She was simply "first". Before her there was no > House and the Cycle itself might even have been in flux. Remember that there > were 34(?) tribes when the great migration started and Kieron and Zerika > began building the Empire. There was no rebirth because there had yet to be > a death. > > "Our" Zerika is the first Reborn Phoenix. > I wonder if this is certain? There is much that is not told of the Phoenix. From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 11:57:31 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:57:31 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> We know that there weren't always 17 houses - I think the cycle was created by the gods to stabilize things. Some of this is by supernatural means, but some might be by social means. I wonder how much of the cycle was created for the purpose of persuading Dragaerans to hold off revolting until it was their turn. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 12:19:46 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:19:46 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >I don't think the populations of Greenaere or Elde Island count, > >because they seem to have rejected the Cycle. > > I'm not sure if this is really a fair statement. Certainly, the residents > of Greenaere and Elde reject the *Empire*, but do we know their > feelings as to the *Cycle*? Hmm. Precisely because they crossbreed without any restriction at all? The whole point of maintaining House purity is because that's the only way the the Cycle can really be maintained. > >However, do not forget that there is an entire House made up entirely > >of crossbreeds, which House is in fact also ruled by the Cycle. > > Not to mention that full-bred members of other houses can join the > Jhereg if they really want to (given some compelling motivation, see > Norathar). But the whole *point* of Norathar joining the Jhereg was that, as far as she knew (and whoever raised her knew), she *was* a crossbreed. > How many full-bread Phoenix are there in the Jhereg right now > that only need to be re-admitted to the House in order to count? Full-bread Phoenix? Mmmm, toast. Sorry. However, to answer your question: During the Interregnum, I think we can be pretty certain that there were no full-breed Phoenix anywhere besides Zerika. I mean, someone would have *said*, "What about all those Phoenix that didn't have a phoenix fly past at their birth? Don't they count, even a little?" Now that the Interregnum is over, perhaps some have been born to Jhereg unions, and will be revealed as they grow older. Who can say? > >I've always been skeptical about the whole "phoenix flying over the > >birth of a true Phoenix" business; it sounds too much like something > >Vlad misunderstood. Perhaps the reason he misunderstood is because > >no-one wants to be blunt and explain that the reason that there are > >(or rather, were) so few true Phoenix, is that Phoenix, being often > >decadent, slept around with absolutely anybody, and didn't even bother > >trying to prevent pregnancies, and therefore many of their poor > >bastard crossbreed offspring had no other choice than to become > >Jhereg. But that also explains how the House could be reborn, and the > >rather gnomic suggestions about what could speculatively be recessives > >that the Lords of Judgement were mumbling about. It might well prove > >to be interesting that at some point that out of the corruption of the > >Jhereg arises the Phoenix again. > > I've noticed that every time Vlad thinks the Dragaerans are being > metaphorical, he seems to be mistaken. Can you cite an example? However, I am quite willing to modify my notion, since it is very simple to do so: Let us say that the phoenix (bird) is indeed attracted by the birth of a pure-breed Phoenix. Then it obviously follows that all those births by Phoenix that are *not* heralded by the phoenix are not pure-breed Phoenix. Decadent little scenario that occured to me: "I can't believe that you did it with an entire Jhegaala squareball team!" "I can't believe that you were so occupied with watching us - not to mention your own frolics with the captain of the team - that you didn't even take a turn with your own wife!" "Oh, well. I suppose we ship the Jhegaala-Phoenix brat off to a Jhereg orphanage - along with all the others." Another thought: Illista to Khaavren: "You could have had several days of pleasure with me before I cast you aside" What if the reason that Khaavren was so angry at Piro for suggesting a cross-house marriage was because Illista and Khaavren *did* have several days (or at least, moments) of pleasure, which in turn led to a Phoenix-Tiassa bastard running around somewhere? > > > Hm. I think that's a rationalization worthy of Speculation:Phoenix. > > Indeed. Hurry up and write it so I can add my counterpoint in... ;-) Soon, soon. > >Eh, give the problem to the Iorich to chew on for a while. I'm > >willing to bet that they would take so long to hash it out that the > >House of the Phoenix would be reborn before they settle the matter. > > Making thousands of Imperials for some lucky bunch of advocates, no doubt. Although it also occurs to me that Zerika, not being stupid, might draft a will or create some sort of legal trust in order to forestall such wranglings - since the advocates would no doubt take their fees from the holdings if any contention were to occur. > > >They could always query the Orb as to how House Phoenix *used* to do it. > > Used to do it when? Used to do it before the House was mostly wiped out, I meant. > So far as we know, Zerika the First was the last reborn Phoenix > (before Zerika IV), so if the House did indeed die off and get > reborn, then that all happened before the Orb came along, so > it wouldn't remember what they did before. No, no. Look, all they need to do is select one Phoenix out of however many there are as the Heir. There must have been some criteria the House used (the least decadent of their number, perhaps? The most decadent? The prettiest? The best poker player?), so the Orb would surely recall what those criteria *were*. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 12:43:52 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:52 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > We know that there weren't always 17 houses Hm. Barlen implies that there *were* always 17 Houses - but the number of groups of Dragaerans (tribes) was larger at first. We don't know for sure what happened to the supernumerary tribes. Were they were absorbed into the Jhereg, or left to colonize the islands (because they were miffed at being excluded from the Cycle and the Empire?), or maybe killed off in some civil war, or maybe a little of all of the above? Sethra presumably knows, but didn't mention it when she infodumped to Vlad. > - I think the cycle was created by the gods to stabilize things. The gods appear to be implying that the Cycle somehow keeps out the Jenoine, but that's just by Paarfi's report, whatever *that's* worth. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 13 12:56:02 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:56:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/13/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > > We don't know for sure what happened to the supernumerary tribes. > Were they were absorbed into the Jhereg and Teckla. Or the other Houses via challenge etc. Note the unlikelihood of small genetic groups maintaining independence for 4k generations when surrounded by rival groups if not supported by the strong governmental, social, and Cyclical aspects of the Empire. > > - I think the cycle was created by the gods to stabilize things. Odd trick, their creating something hugely more powerful than they are. > The gods appear to be implying that the Cycle somehow keeps out the > Jenoine, but that's just by Paarfi's report, whatever *that's* worth. Paarfi's been around something like as long as the gods and seems to be about as smart, so it's got to be worth something if anything is. I missed the anti-J aspect or have forgotten it. I would have thought that would be kind of a state secret. Guess I should go look at _TEoDM_ again on that point. From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 13:01:26 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:01:26 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <400901c5e895$6962c920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > No, no. Look, all they need to do is select one Phoenix out of > however many there are as the Heir. There must have been some > criteria the House used (the least decadent of their number, perhaps? > The most decadent? The prettiest? The best poker player?), so the > Orb would surely recall what those criteria *were*. This probably wouldn't even be that hard. Aliera talks about her genetic work in ways that indicate an ability to pin down family lines. As long as someone could identify the Phoenix equivalent of an "e'Mondarr recessive" in each candidate, rights of succession could be easily determined just by consulting Imperial records. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 13:00:11 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:00:11 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512131300u331e5adduc167c6b14ace5953@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Howard Brazee wrote: > > I wonder how much of the cycle was created for the purpose of persuading > Dragaerans to hold off revolting until it was their turn. > But my dear Howard, the Jhereg are *always* revolting. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 13:04:13 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:04:13 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512131304s6ea1d507wa095b04d1f5cbf79@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > Paarfi's been around something like as long as the gods and seems to be > about as smart, so it's got to be worth something if anything is. > Well Paarfi obviously knows *something* true, because he knows about Devera. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 13:06:03 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:06:03 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> Message-ID: <439F37BB.5050804@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >> > - I think the cycle was created by the gods to stabilize things. > >Odd trick, their creating something hugely more powerful than they are. > > > Why is that odd? Creations more powerful than the creators is common in real life and in myths. From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 13:14:30 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:14:30 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512131300u331e5adduc167c6b14ace5953@mail.gmail.com> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0512131300u331e5adduc167c6b14ace5953@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439F39B6.1010409@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: > But my dear Howard, the Jhereg are *always* revolting. > How revolting *are* they? From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 13:30:24 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:30:24 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F37BB.5050804@brazee.net> Message-ID: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > -----Original Message----- > Why is that odd? Creations more powerful than the creators > is common > in real life and in myths. I don't recall whether it was in a book or an apocryphal statement by Steve, but it's been said that The Cycle is a fundamental law of the universe. If true, then it was clearly not created by the Lords of Judgement. Certainly, they seem to have no particular power over it. It may be that they (or the Jenoine!) discovered it and simply adapted it for their purposes. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 13 13:28:27 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:28:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F37BB.5050804@brazee.net> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> <439F37BB.5050804@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >> > - I think the cycle was created by the gods to stabilize things. > > > >Odd trick, their creating something hugely more powerful than they are. > > > > > > > Why is that odd? Creations more powerful than the creators is common > in real life and in myths. If they can make a Cycle, why not whistle up a Loom that makes the J turn their amorphia monomania to cashmere sweater lust. From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 13:30:42 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:30:42 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >> -----Original Message----- > >> Why is that odd? Creations more powerful than the creators >> is common in real life and in myths. > >I don't recall whether it was in a book or an apocryphal statement by Steve, >but it's been said that The Cycle is a fundamental law of the universe. If >true, then it was clearly not created by the Lords of Judgement. Certainly, >they seem to have no particular power over it. It may be that they (or the >Jenoine!) discovered it and simply adapted it for their purposes. > > > I disagree with your conclusion. Why can't a fundamental law of the universe not be created by the Lords of Judgment? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 13 13:43:56 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:43:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> References: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > I disagree with your conclusion. Why can't a fundamental law of the > universe not be created by the Lords of Judgment? Why can't it be a fundamental law of the universe that the Jenoine have to tapdance whenever in the presence of the LoJ? From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 13:44:56 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:44:56 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> <439F37BB.5050804@brazee.net> Message-ID: <439F40D8.3080704@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >If they can make a Cycle, why not whistle up a Loom that makes the J turn >their amorphia monomania to cashmere sweater lust. > > I don't know what their limitations are - they aren't omnipotent. I don't know what costs they are willing to pay. Maybe they need amorphia despite its danger. Maybe the Cycle was a costly creation that they needed to establish enough order to turn more of their attention to the Jenoine. From scott at cjhunter.com Sun Nov 13 13:50:06 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:50:06 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> Message-ID: <40fe01c5e89c$35bf7850$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I disagree with your conclusion. Why can't a fundamental > law of the > universe not be created by the Lords of Judgment? > There's no reason they can't. It just seems that, _A Dream of Passion_ aside, they don't really seem to be into that sort of thing. Moreover, the limited knowledge we've been given would indicate that they don't really understand it all that well or have any control over it. If they had put it into operation, you'd think there'd be an Architect who they'd be consulting instead of putting up with cryptic mumbo-jumbo from Verra and her sisters. Most of the time they don't even seem to know which phase it's pointing to, though this could very well have to do with the way time flails around in the vicinity of the Halls along with the fact that the Cycle represents Dragaeran Terrestrial time. From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 13:54:09 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:54:09 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <40fe01c5e89c$35bf7850$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <40fe01c5e89c$35bf7850$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <439F4301.90204@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >> I disagree with your conclusion. Why can't a fundamental >> law of the >> universe not be created by the Lords of Judgment? >> > >There's no reason they can't. It just seems that, _A Dream of Passion_ >aside, they don't really seem to be into that sort of thing. Moreover, the >limited knowledge we've been given would indicate that they don't really >understand it all that well or have any control over it. If they had put it >into operation, you'd think there'd be an Architect who they'd be consulting >instead of putting up with cryptic mumbo-jumbo from Verra and her sisters. > >Most of the time they don't even seem to know which phase it's pointing to, >though this could very well have to do with the way time flails around in >the vicinity of the Halls along with the fact that the Cycle represents >Dragaeran Terrestrial time. > > > It's quite possible for the powerful to implement something they do not fully understand. It is quite possible to underestimate final results of such an implementation and to ignore subtleties of it. Especially if it makes a better story. Or do you prefer your myths with gods who always get what they expect? From howard at brazee.net Tue Dec 13 13:56:47 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:56:47 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> Message-ID: <439F439F.2000609@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> I disagree with your conclusion. Why can't a fundamental law of the >> universe not be created by the Lords of Judgment? > >Why can't it be a fundamental law of the universe that the Jenoine have to >tapdance whenever in the presence of the LoJ? > > Mainly because it doesn't make as good of a story. But remember - these gods aren't omnipotent. We don't' know what is easy, hard, or impossible. If the Jenoine overlooked something that allowed them an opportunity to change the way the universe worked - and they thought that change would give them an edge in their battle with them - it may be worth a heavy cost to implement. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Dec 13 14:52:05 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:52:05 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Message-ID: <4C294826.58ABB94F.00048EA6@aol.com> "Scott Schultz" writes: > I don't recall whether it was in a book or an apocryphal statement > by Steve, but it's been said that The Cycle is a fundamental law > of the universe. The comment was made by one of the LoJ (I think Barlen), and was related to us by Paarfi who even admitted to not being present at the time. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 13 16:30:54 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:30:54 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F4301.90204@brazee.net> References: <40fe01c5e89c$35bf7850$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F4301.90204@brazee.net> Message-ID: <439F67BE.5000404@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > It's quite possible for the powerful to implement something they do > not fully understand. It is quite possible to underestimate final > results of such an implementation and to ignore subtleties of it. > > Especially if it makes a better story. > > Or do you prefer your myths with gods who always get what they expect? Oh, you mean like "To Reign in Hell", to pick an example at random? ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 13 16:33:01 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:33:01 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> Message-ID: <439F683D.6060607@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >Why can't it be a fundamental law of the universe that the Jenoine have to >tapdance whenever in the presence of the LoJ? > > That's easy. Jenoine ain't got no rythym. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 13 16:37:20 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:37:20 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F39B6.1010409@brazee.net> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F27AB.9060408@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0512131300u331e5adduc167c6b14ace5953@mail.gmail.com> <439F39B6.1010409@brazee.net> Message-ID: <439F6940.20000@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > >> But my dear Howard, the Jhereg are *always* revolting. >> > How revolting *are* they? They're so revolting that the last time a Jhereg and Barlen went to Valabar's, someone pointed at Barlen and said, "Who's the looker?" Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 13 16:43:17 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:43:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F683D.6060607@comcast.net> References: <409b01c5e899$752f1f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <439F3D82.8080504@brazee.net> <439F683D.6060607@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Jenoine ain't got no rythym. Nobody has that. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 13 17:02:26 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:02:26 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439F6F22.4040205@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Hmm. Precisely because they crossbreed without any restriction at all? > The whole point of maintaining House purity is because that's the only > way the the Cycle can really be maintained. > That kinda seems like making too much stew from one oyster to me. We don't know for sure that they don't respect the cycle just because of their breeding habits. I think it was Loiosh who said "A whole Island full of /Teckla/?" Which might imply that they aren't really crossbreeds at all (or maybe don't consider themselves to be such) but rather, simply not members of the "noble" houses. I also like the idea that the inhabitants of Elde and Greenaere may be descendants of the tribes that "didn't make it". That seems like a pretty "cool" idea. >But the whole *point* of Norathar joining the Jhereg was that, as far >as she knew (and whoever raised her knew), she *was* a crossbreed. > > > Hmmm. Good point. However, while we know that Norathar's lineage was "questionable", we don't exactly know in which WAY it was questionable. It doesn't absolutely follow that she was considered a cross-breed... It may be that they simply though she was of the "wrong" Dragon lineage. (Given that the Dragons think about lineages seemingly much more than the other houses, this does not seem impossible.) >Full-bread Phoenix? Mmmm, toast. Sorry. > > > She's not on Atkins, so bread it okay. >However, to answer your question: During the Interregnum, I think we >can be pretty certain that there were no full-breed Phoenix anywhere >besides Zerika. I mean, someone would have *said*, "What about all >those Phoenix that didn't have a phoenix fly past at their birth? >Don't they count, even a little?" > > Perhaps. But then, with the Empire (and apparently the cycle) broken, they simply may not have stopped to consider that it might be important. >Now that the Interregnum is over, perhaps some have been born to >Jhereg unions, and will be revealed as they grow older. Who can say? > > > Only one man that I know of, but he's not talking. >>I've noticed that every time Vlad thinks the Dragaerans are being >>metaphorical, he seems to be mistaken. >> >> > >Can you cite an example? > > > Well, I guess I'm mostly thinking of the "Dragaeran birth control" statements. But there's also his response to Sethra's "Become part of the Rock of Dzur Mountain" comment. Admittedly, we don't really know if he's really "wrong" in either instance, but it is strongly implied that he may be. I guess *I'm* making too much stew out of one oyster this time. >However, I am quite willing to modify my notion, since it is very >simple to do so: Let us say that the phoenix (bird) is indeed >attracted by the birth of a pure-breed Phoenix. Then it obviously >follows that all those births by Phoenix that are *not* heralded by >the phoenix are not pure-breed Phoenix. > > Intriguing. Still, what if there was bad weather and the bird simply couldn't make it in time? >Decadent little scenario that occured to me: > >"I can't believe that you did it with an entire Jhegaala squareball team!" >"I can't believe that you were so occupied with watching us - not to >mention your own frolics with the captain of the team - that you >didn't even take a turn with your own wife!" >"Oh, well. I suppose we ship the Jhegaala-Phoenix brat off to a Jhereg >orphanage - along with all the others." > >Another thought: > >Illista to Khaavren: "You could have had several days of pleasure with >me before I cast you aside" > >What if the reason that Khaavren was so angry at Piro for suggesting a >cross-house marriage was because Illista and Khaavren *did* have >several days (or at least, moments) of pleasure, which in turn led to >a Phoenix-Tiassa bastard running around somewhere? > > Oooo... Juicy. Still, it seems like Dragaerans in general have no real problem with casual sex across houses, it's just the idea of *marriage* (or producing offspring) with someone of another house that gets them. Seems to me that Vlad has some pretty good comments about prostitution that would appear to back this sentiment up. >Soon, soon. > > > Good. I'm getting tired of being the only one to contribute. (Call your friends! Good wikicity in need of help!) >Although it also occurs to me that Zerika, not being stupid, might >draft a will or create some sort of legal trust in order to forestall >such wranglings - since the advocates would no doubt take their fees >from the holdings if any contention were to occur. > > > Nah. the holdings are of a limited amount. The contenders for the inheritence, on the other hand, are likely to have deep pockets. Still, it's hard to imagine who would have the strongest claim to Zerika's inheritance. Laszlo? I have trouble buying that one. >No, no. Look, all they need to do is select one Phoenix out of >however many there are as the Heir. There must have been some >criteria the House used (the least decadent of their number, perhaps? >The most decadent? The prettiest? The best poker player?), so the >Orb would surely recall what those criteria *were*. > Okay. Fair enough. Given that argument, I'd say the likeliest criterea is that of the "purest of character". (See TPG) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 13 17:11:54 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:11:54 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <3ee701c5e884$9e642ee0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <439F715A.6030607@comcast.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >Actually, it's the lack of any textev stating that Zerika I was a Reborn >Phoenix. From what we've been told she was sent visions, which she heeded >and by doing so she created the foundation of what eventually became the >Empire. > > A Lack of evidence to the contrary does not positive evidence make. I forget which logical fallacy this is, exactly, but it has a fancy Latin name. >Granted things get shaky in that we don't know "when" the Halls came into >being in relation to the founding of the Empire; nor do we really know if >The Cycle was constructed by the Lords or if it preceded them. We don't know >if The Cycle encouraged particular tribes and discouraged others or if it >simply reflects the current makeup of The Empire. Still, I have some >difficulty with the idea of it being a Great Cycle between the Revolt and >the Migration. The Easterners ought to have overrun the world in the >meantime. (Note that the Gods could have had a hand in preventing such an >occurrence.) > > It's strongly implied by Paarfi that the Paths (and the gods) post-date the concept of the cycle anyway. (Of course, Paarfi may be smoking Dreamgrass, but he's our best source on this to date). Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 17:57:42 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:57:42 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F6F22.4040205@comcast.net> References: <439F6F22.4040205@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Hmm. Precisely because they crossbreed without any restriction at all? > > The whole point of maintaining House purity is because that's the only > > way the the Cycle can really be maintained. > > > That kinda seems like making too much stew from one oyster to me. We > don't know for sure that they don't respect the cycle just because of > their breeding habits. I think it was Loiosh who said "A whole Island > full of /Teckla/?" Which might imply that they aren't really crossbreeds > at all (or maybe don't consider themselves to be such) but rather, > simply not members of the "noble" houses. The full exchange between Loiosh and Vlad is: [Begin Cite] "A whole island of Teckla," said Loiosh. "If you want to look at it that way." "They have no Houses." "So maybe they're all Jhereg." [End Cite] However, neither of them really knows (or, for that matter, cares). So I wouldn't put that much weight on those comments. And, just to point out: It is my understanding - which I grant may be wrong - that Teckla have House purity as well. One of the things that has not been explained in the text (so far as I know) is what the rules and attitudes are towards *breeding* with those who have joined a House, given how important House purity is. So, I don't think any Dzur father would have been happy to marry their daughter off to Mellar, even if he *was* a Dzur by their House rules. Would a Teckla father want his daughter to marry an Easterner who joined the House? Hm. I am not sure how it is all supposed to work. > I also like the idea that the inhabitants of Elde and Greenaere may be > descendants of the tribes that "didn't make it". That seems like a > pretty "cool" idea. > > >But the whole *point* of Norathar joining the Jhereg was that, as far > >as she knew (and whoever raised her knew), she *was* a crossbreed. > > > > > > > Hmmm. Good point. However, while we know that Norathar's lineage was > "questionable", we don't exactly know in which WAY it was questionable. > It doesn't absolutely follow that she was considered a cross-breed... It > may be that they simply though she was of the "wrong" Dragon lineage. In this case, there is textev for the crossbreedness accusation: Sethra Lavode, infodumping to Norathar: "To be blunt, I received word that you were a bastard. I'm sorry, but that's what I was told. [...] I was further told that your true father was not a Dragon." > > >However, to answer your question: During the Interregnum, I think we > >can be pretty certain that there were no full-breed Phoenix anywhere > >besides Zerika. I mean, someone would have *said*, "What about all > >those Phoenix that didn't have a phoenix fly past at their birth? > >Don't they count, even a little?" > > > Perhaps. But then, with the Empire (and apparently the cycle) broken, > they simply may not have stopped to consider that it might be important. Yet *after* the Empire is restored, Zerika is said specifically to have been the only member of her House. No alleged "unheralded" Phoenix were even hinted at. > >>I've noticed that every time Vlad thinks the Dragaerans are being > >>metaphorical, he seems to be mistaken. > > > >Can you cite an example? > > > Well, I guess I'm mostly thinking of the "Dragaeran birth control" > statements. But there's also his response to Sethra's "Become part of > the Rock of Dzur Mountain" comment. Admittedly, we don't really know if > he's really "wrong" in either instance, but it is strongly implied that > he may be. Um. It sounds like you meant "literal" rather than "metaphorical". Or perhaps I have misunderstood? Besides, we never find out the truth of that statement. Given that this *is* Sethra, perhaps she was being metamorphical. > I guess *I'm* making too much stew out of one oyster this time. I nearly think! > Still, it seems like Dragaerans in general have no real problem with > casual sex across houses, it's just the idea of *marriage* (or producing > offspring) with someone of another house that gets them. Well, more or less. I have never suggested otherwise. The salacious scene I suggested wasn't just casual sex, but a wild orgy. And, as I was trying to imply, the Phoenix wife was not caring enough to cast the contraceptive spell, which is what makes it *really* dirty to Dragaerans. > > Still, it's hard to imagine who would have the strongest claim to > Zerika's inheritance. Laszlo? I have trouble buying that one. Perhaps the family of her foster parents? Something else for Dragons to fight over... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Dec 13 18:24:38 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:24:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <439F6F22.4040205@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/13/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > may be that they simply though she was of the "wrong" Dragon lineage. > > In this case, there is textev for the crossbreedness accusation: > > Sethra Lavode, infodumping to Norathar: "To be blunt, I received word > that you were a bastard. I'm sorry, but that's what I was told. [...] > I was further told that your true father was not a Dragon." Note also (AFB, but) Aliera's surprise that N fights like a Dragon, dies like a Dragon, is a Dragon (oops, was a Dragon). From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Wed Dec 14 05:30:12 2005 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:30:12 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <439F715A.6030607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051214083012000.00000001812@Z7581> **-----Original Message----- **From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info **[mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On **Behalf Of Jon Lincicum **Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:12 PM **To: Scott Schultz **Cc: 'Dragaera List' **Subject: Re: How will House Phoenix arise from **the ashes? ** **Scott Schultz wrote: ** **>Actually, it's the lack of any textev stating **that Zerika I was a Reborn **>Phoenix. From what we've been told she was sent **visions, which she heeded **>and by doing so she created the foundation of **what eventually became the **>Empire. **> **> **A Lack of evidence to the contrary does not **positive evidence make. I **forget which logical fallacy this is, exactly, **but it has a fancy Latin **name. ** argumentum ad ignorantiam (?) [Brian Vanskyock] From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 14 05:39:20 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 05:39:20 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <20051214083012000.00000001812@Z7581> References: <20051214083012000.00000001812@Z7581> Message-ID: <43A02088.4090203@comcast.net> Brian Vanskyock wrote: >**-----Original Message----- >**From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >**[mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On >**Behalf Of Jon Lincicum >**Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:12 PM >**To: Scott Schultz >**Cc: 'Dragaera List' >**Subject: Re: How will House Phoenix arise from >**the ashes? >** >**Scott Schultz wrote: >** >**>Actually, it's the lack of any textev stating >**that Zerika I was a Reborn >**>Phoenix. From what we've been told she was sent >**visions, which she heeded >**>and by doing so she created the foundation of >**what eventually became the >**>Empire. >**> >**> >**A Lack of evidence to the contrary does not >**positive evidence make. I >**forget which logical fallacy this is, exactly, >**but it has a fancy Latin >**name. >** >argumentum ad ignorantiam (?) > > >[Brian Vanskyock] > > > Yes. That's the one. Thanks. See its entry in the list of logical fallacies at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#ignorantiam Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Nov 14 09:46:10 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:46:10 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A02088.4090203@comcast.net> Message-ID: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > >**A Lack of evidence to the contrary does not > >**positive evidence make. I > >**forget which logical fallacy this is, exactly, > >**but it has a fancy Latin > >**name. > >** > >argumentum ad ignorantiam (?) Well, yes, I shan't deny the validity of that. I was trying to avoid being simply contrary and asking "Where is the textex that Zerika I was a Reborn Phoenix?" There isn't any, making the question moot because it leaves the discussion in the exact state it was in previously. If you want to get logical about it and you won't accept the premises that "the Houses were born at the founding of the Empire" and that "a House cannot have been reborn if it has not died" then the best that you can conclude about Zerika I is "insufficient data". Something to keep in mind though - The end of the Great Cycle and the appearance of the Reborn Phoenix was not an event related to the death and rebirth of House Phoenix. It was an event related to the death and rebirth of The Empire. Given that, I can't see how Zerika I could possibly be a Reborn Phoenix. She was simply First. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Dec 14 09:58:54 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:58:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, Scott Schultz wrote: > Something to keep in mind though - The end of the Great Cycle and the > appearance of the Reborn Phoenix was not an event related to the death and > rebirth of House Phoenix. This isn't clear to me. > It was an event related to the death and rebirth of The Empire. Given > that, I can't see how Zerika I could possibly be a Reborn Phoenix. She > was simply First. Maybe Z_0 was a sport - the first Phoenix. Maybe the Orb contains the magic whatever-it-is needed to produce a Houseworth of Phoenix out of one, and Z_now will when the time is right use it - say as her last act as Emperor. Maybe Z_0 was the last of her tribe, all the rest of which perished establishing the Empire or creating the Orb, which was designed to make new Phoenix with the side benefit of sorcery. Maybe the Phoenix are the living embodiment of the Cycle. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Dec 14 10:14:28 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:14:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 11/14/05 09:46 AM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Well, yes, I shan't deny the validity of that. I was trying to avoid being >simply contrary and asking "Where is the textex that Zerika I was a Reborn >Phoenix?" There isn't any, making the question moot because it leaves the >discussion in the exact state it was in previously. Well, not entirely. It establishes that the question of her status is entirely open for debate; which is in stark contrast to the comment "Zerika is *not* a reborn Phoenix" which is what I was objecting to. Now, if you want to say that "I don't think she was, because..." or "This evidence makes me suspect she was not..." you'll ellicit an entirely different reaction, and we'll probably get some good discussion out of it. >If you want to get logical about it and you won't accept the premises that >"the Houses were born at the founding of the Empire" I believe that Sethra has some comments in Issola that say that even AFTER the Empire was founded, the tribes didn't really start thinking about themselves as "houses" until some time after this (like even 2 or 3 cycles). Paarfi has some comments in PotD that even hint that the Dragaerans didn't even recognize that they had an empire until about 4 cycles into it, when they "..suddenly realized it had been an Empire all along..." The bottom line on this point is that while the transition from "tribes" to "houses" was a fairly gradual process, as was the transition from "nomadic bands of Dragaerans" to "Empire". And while it is entirely possible that both events happened in conjunction with one another, there's too much time (tens of thousands of years, by my count) unaccounted for to know if the two events ("founding the empire" and "becoming proper houses") are really connected in any significant way. They are only "contemporary to each other" when viewed from hundreds of thousands of years in the future. >Something to keep in mind though - The end of the Great Cycle and the >appearance of the Reborn Phoenix was not an event related to the death and >rebirth of House Phoenix. It was an event related to the death and rebirth >of The Empire. Given that, I can't see how Zerika I could possibly be a >Reborn Phoenix. She was simply First. Hmm... Interesting distinction here. Did the cycle of decay and rebirth of the Phoenix begin with the start of the Empire, or the start of the cycle itself? I guess we don't really know this for sure... But I think my personal view is that this is a mystical aspect of the cycle, rather than any transitory human influence. A Phoenix is a mystical creature (at least in our culture) so at least this explanation makes a certain amount of sense, even if it is unsubstantiated. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Dec 14 10:17:28 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:17:28 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43A061B8.1090007@brazee.net> I wonder if there is a genetic difference between a Phoenix and his/her parents. Can Sethra do tests to verify that she is in fact eligible to become empress? Does she have characteristics of the animal? Is it obvious when a Phoenix walks down the street? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Dec 14 10:18:24 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:18:24 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/14/05 09:58 AM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Maybe Z_0 was a sport - the first Phoenix. Maybe the Orb contains the >magic whatever-it-is needed to produce a Houseworth of Phoenix out of one, >and Z_now will when the time is right use it - say as her last act as >Emperor. > >Maybe Z_0 was the last of her tribe, all the rest of which perished >establishing the Empire or creating the Orb, which was designed to make >new Phoenix with the side benefit of sorcery. Maybe the Phoenix are the >living embodiment of the Cycle. I find it interesting that in our mythos, the Phoenix is supposed to bind up the ashes of its predessesors in an "egg" which will then be reborn into a new Phoenix. I'd say the Orb makes a good parallel to an egg. They're both round, anyway. ;-) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Dec 14 11:35:29 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:35:29 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/13/05 05:57 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >The full exchange between Loiosh and Vlad is: > >[Begin Cite] > >"A whole island of Teckla," said Loiosh. >"If you want to look at it that way." >"They have no Houses." >"So maybe they're all Jhereg." > >[End Cite] > >However, neither of them really knows (or, for that matter, cares). >So I wouldn't put that much weight on those comments. > >And, just to point out: It is my understanding - which I grant may be >wrong - that Teckla have House purity as well. > >One of the things that has not been explained in the text (so far as I >know) is what the rules and attitudes are towards *breeding* with >those who have joined a House, given how important House purity is. >So, I don't think any Dzur father would have been happy to marry their >daughter off to Mellar, even if he *was* a Dzur by their House rules. >Would a Teckla father want his daughter to marry an Easterner who >joined the House? >Hm. I am not sure how it is all supposed to work. >In this case, there is textev for the crossbreedness accusation: > >Sethra Lavode, infodumping to Norathar: "To be blunt, I received word >that you were a bastard. I'm sorry, but that's what I was told. [...] >I was further told that your true father was not a Dragon." Ah yes. That seems quite clear. Still, I think it's plausible that other Jhereg are indeed full genetic members of some other house (likely Teckla for the most part, but there could be some disgraced Dragons, Dzur, Lyorn, etc). Each House has their own standards for behaviour and someone (like, oh, say, Kragar) may get booted from their House for violating those standards, and find the prospect of being a Jhereg preferable to being a Teckla. >> Perhaps. But then, with the Empire (and apparently the cycle) broken, >> they simply may not have stopped to consider that it might be important. > >Yet *after* the Empire is restored, Zerika is said specifically to >have been the only member of her House. No alleged "unheralded" >Phoenix were even hinted at. Well, afterwards it seems like she's been pretty busy being Empress--which (unlike her immediate predessesor) occupies a great deal of her attention. >The salacious scene I suggested wasn't just casual sex, but a wild >orgy. And, as I was trying to imply, the Phoenix wife was not caring >enough to cast the contraceptive spell, which is what makes it >*really* dirty to Dragaerans. Oh! Yeah! That's it, baby! Corrupt my racial purity! Oh yeah! That's how I like it! >Perhaps the family of her foster parents? Something else for Dragons >to fight over... But then, if Sethra Lavode *did* just step up and claim it, I can't imagine anyone putting up much of a fuss about it--legal or no. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051214/3f4eae08/attachment.html From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 12:13:50 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:13:50 -0700 Subject: Kragar WAS Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512141213w2482f382p70d0d81f8a538a23@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Ah yes. That seems quite clear. Still, I think it's plausible that other > Jhereg are indeed full genetic members of some other house (likely Teckla > for the most part, but there could be some disgraced Dragons, Dzur, Lyorn, > etc). Each House has their own standards for behaviour and someone (like, > oh, say, Kragar) may get booted from their House for violating those > standards, and find the prospect of being a Jhereg preferable to being a > Teckla. > But I thought Kragar was a deep-cover operative for House Dragon? Which explains why Aliera dislikes him. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Dec 14 12:19:33 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:19:33 -0800 Subject: Kragar WAS Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512141213w2482f382p70d0d81f8a538a23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/14/05 12:13 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Kragar WAS Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >But I thought Kragar was a deep-cover operative for House Dragon? Which >explains why Aliera dislikes him. > >Max Wilson Kragar has been called everything from a secret agent crossbreed son of Daymar to a Dreamgrass-smoking, Mario-concealing Yendi uncle of Kieron the Conquerer. (Okay, maybe that last one if a bit of a stretch) Still, the wikicity has a good article on all the things that Kragar might be: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Kragar Personaly, I like the idea that Kragar is just what he appears to be. A disgraced Dragon who was a dismal failure as a field commander so he went to find greener pastures. (Or, at least, Blacker and Greyer ones.) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Dec 14 13:14:24 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:14:24 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: <439DC4AA.8080201@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee 12/12/05 10:42 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Twins >Animal husbandry combined with the genetic science that they have shown >to have will give them such understanding. I wouldn't be surprised if >they could create identical twins when desired for some royal or noble >inheritance purpose. Ah, but that would be playing god. Hmmm... I wonder, does Verra worry about playing god? ;-) Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Wed Dec 14 13:33:17 2005 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:33:17 -0500 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002401c600f5$ff8372b0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writ: > Ah, but that would be playing god. > > Hmmm... I wonder, does Verra worry about playing god? > > ;-) Verra _plays_ at little, mortal! Though perhaps she'd make an exception with you? :) Casey From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 14 15:24:09 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:24:09 -0000 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20051214232418.MXSH11396.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> >Well, yes, I shan't deny the validity of that. I was trying to avoid being >simply contrary and asking "Where is the textex that Zerika I was a Reborn >Phoenix?" There isn't any, making the question moot because it leaves the >discussion in the exact state it was in previously. I'm not sure that's true. We know Paarfi wrote Viscount of Adrilanka during Norathar's reign. Ergo the cycle turned. We have to have a reborn Phoenix before that. Zerika reigns at least 309 years (see preface? of The Phoenix Guards) Plus 179 years of Norathar's reign. And Paarfi is still writing, I'm not saying there can't have been another ruler in between, but strikes me as unlikely. Cheers Mark From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Dec 14 16:51:15 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 01:51:15 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <20051214232418.MXSH11396.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> Message-ID: "Mark Tiller" wrote: >To: "'Scott Schultz'" ,"'Dragaera'" > >Subject: RE: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:24:09 -0000 > > > >Well, yes, I shan't deny the validity of that. I was trying to avoid >being > >simply contrary and asking "Where is the textex that Zerika I was a >Reborn > >Phoenix?" There isn't any, making the question moot because it leaves the > >discussion in the exact state it was in previously. > >I'm not sure that's true. We know Paarfi wrote Viscount of Adrilanka >during >Norathar's reign. Ergo the cycle turned. We have to have a reborn Phoenix >before that. Zerika reigns at least 309 years (see preface? of The Phoenix >Guards) Plus 179 years of Norathar's reign. And Paarfi is still writing, >I'm not saying there can't have been another ruler in between, but strikes >me as unlikely. > >Cheers > >Mark This discussion is about Zerika the first, not our cherished Easterner-lover. ;) Of course Zerika the fourth is one. From steve at romlin.com Thu Dec 15 04:02:22 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:02:22 +0100 Subject: Creating something more powerful than you Message-ID: > > - I think the cycle was created by the gods to stabilize things. > > Odd trick, their creating something hugely more powerful than they are. Oh, it seems pretty usual to me. Sauron created the One Ring. The Milanese created Duomo. And Bobby Henderson created the FSM. \Steve the younger From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Dec 15 07:02:18 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:02:18 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A061B8.1090007@brazee.net> References: <53e301c5e943$4ca157d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43A061B8.1090007@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43A1857A.50609@email.ers.usda.gov> Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder if there is a genetic difference between a Phoenix and > his/her parents. Can Sethra do tests to verify that she is in fact > eligible to become empress? Does she have characteristics of the > animal? Is it obvious when a Phoenix walks down the street? Yes, they all walk down the street singing "Do-wah diddy, diddy-dum-wah-did-dy." Dead give away, IMNSHO O:-) Snarkhunter From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:03:03 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:03:03 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >In this case, there is textev for the crossbreedness accusation: > > > >Sethra Lavode, infodumping to Norathar: "To be blunt, I received word > >that you were a bastard. I'm sorry, but that's what I was told. [...] > >I was further told that your true father was not a Dragon." > > Ah yes. That seems quite clear. Still, I think it's plausible that other > Jhereg are indeed full genetic members of some other house (likely > Teckla for the most part, but there could be some disgraced Dragons, > Dzur, Lyorn, etc). Each House has their own standards for behaviour > and someone (like, oh, say, Kragar) may get booted from their House > for violating those standards, and find the prospect of being a Jhereg > preferable to being a Teckla. I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per se). > >> Perhaps. But then, with the Empire (and apparently the cycle) broken, > >> they simply may not have stopped to consider that it might be important. > > > >Yet *after* the Empire is restored, Zerika is said specifically to > >have been the only member of her House. No alleged "unheralded" > >Phoenix were even hinted at. > > Well, afterwards it seems like she's been pretty busy being > Empress--which (unlike her immediate predessesor) > occupies a great deal of her attention. Yet in all of the sections about Zerika trying to gain the support of the other Houses, it would be highly important to note that "the unheralded Phoenix gave her their support", or something similar. As I've said, I'm almost entirely certain that that indicates that there are no such thing. Since she bears the Orb, it would be rather difficult for her to forget that they exist. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:06:38 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:06:38 -0800 Subject: Twins In-Reply-To: <002401c600f5$ff8372b0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <002401c600f5$ff8372b0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writ: > > Ah, but that would be playing god. > > > > Hmmm... I wonder, does Verra worry about playing god? > > > > ;-) > > Verra _plays_ at little, mortal! Though perhaps she'd make an exception > with you? > Verra plays with people. [Begin Cite] "Keep still," she said, and I suddenly felt like someone was driving a spike into my head. I gasped, and the pain went away. [...] "Verra snapped her head toward me, and I couldn't keep myself from flinching. She noticed it and smiled, and I felt myself flushing." [End Cite] That is, like a cat plays with mice. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 15 16:02:12 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:02:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Uhh, a cowardly Dzur (result of incurable brain damage received in battle, or in falling down the stairs) can't be brought up on civil charges, but is clearly unable to remain in the House. A treasonous Lyorn may be executed without trial, effectively an expulsion. Demanding Kragar be both a crossbreed (unsuspected by Vlad) _and_ practically invisible is too much. Umm, an Athyra congenitally unable to teleport? Of course a purebreed could be missing an essential gene through mutation. Incidentally, what about Whozzit the Issolan Jhereg Vlag threatens? Is he a hybrid? Or just an Issola with an uncivil tongue? From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 16:21:16 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:21:16 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. > > > Uhh, a cowardly Dzur (result of incurable brain damage received in battle, > or in falling down the stairs) can't be brought up on civil charges, > but is clearly unable to remain in the House. Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help ("Could you give me some courage?"). I suspect that any *really* cowardly Dzur would either be killed by a relative (to prevent the shame from becoming known), or (be encouraged to) commit suicide. > A treasonous Lyorn may be executed without trial, effectively an > expulsion. Actually, effectively a civil punishment. Although I don't think it would generally be "without trial" (Aerich claimed that he killed Shaltre in "self-defense"). > Demanding Kragar be both a crossbreed (unsuspected by Vlad) _and_ > practically invisible is too much. How so? Especially if the latter is a hint to the former? > > Of course a purebreed could be missing an essential gene through mutation. > > > Incidentally, what about Whozzit the Issolan Jhereg Vlag threatens? > Is he a hybrid? Or just an Issola with an uncivil tongue? > He was a Jhereg. A *courteous* (as in "courtier") Jhereg, but nevertheless a Jhereg. But all Jhereg are hybrids, as I keep having to emphasize. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Dec 15 16:27:34 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:27:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > But all Jhereg are hybrids Vlad's a hybrid what? > as I keep having to emphasize. Seems to me you keep begging. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 16:48:46 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:48:46 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > But all Jhereg are hybrids > > Vlad's a hybrid what? [*rolls eyes*] Fine, Vlad's a statistical anomaly. Actually, come to think of it, we don't know exactly who (or what) his mom was, do we? And there's even the pararectal idea that Vlad is an Easterner-God crossbreed, too... > > as I keep having to emphasize. > > Seems to me you keep begging. > What about the canon? Please, won't someone think of the poor, helpless, little canon? (SKZB: "Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry action, but it really depends on the technology of the field piece in question." ) From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Dec 15 16:45:10 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 01:45:10 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock wrote: >But all Jhereg are hybrids, as I keep having to emphasize. And because your theory demands that Kragar is a bastard, then he is, despite him being described as a Dragon in all the books? Circle evidence, at least until SKZB says Kragar is a bastard. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 22:54:52 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:54:52 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >But all Jhereg are hybrids, as I keep having to emphasize. > > And because your theory demands that Kragar is a bastard, then he is, > despite him being described as a Dragon in all the books? Well, he is in my speculation. Just like Kiera is always described as being a Jhereg, right until the end of /Orca/. If I'd speculated that Kiera was secretly Sethra Lavode, I'd have been right to do so. If I'd speculated that she was secretly Zerika, Empress of all Dragaera, well, I would have been wrong. Hm. Actually, Kiera being secretly Zerika may have some merit. I need to re-read parts of /Orca/. > > Circle evidence, at least until SKZB says Kragar is a bastard. > It's not evidence at all. Speculation is always circular. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 06:08:52 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:08:52 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/15/05 04:48 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Actually, come to think of it, we don't know exactly who (or what) his >mom was, do we? Nothing solid, that's for sure (she only gets the briefest mention in /Taltos/, and is never mentioned again. There's a good speculation article on her at the wikicity (as I'm sure you know, but others here might want to look at it): http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Vlad_Taltos#Vlad.27s_Mother Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051216/dcd9d2e7/attachment.htm From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 07:35:26 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:35:26 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davdi Silverrock" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 5:48 PM Subject: Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? On 12/15/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > But all Jhereg are hybrids > > Vlad's a hybrid what? [*rolls eyes*] Fine, Vlad's a statistical anomaly. As long as he isn't Neo. . . (SKZB: "Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry action, but it really depends on the technology of the field piece in question." ) everything else done by a military force is to support infantry. You can shell someone into the stone age, bomb them until it looks like the moon, but until the foot sloggers show up and raise the flag, it aint yours. From ike at manor.org Fri Dec 16 12:22:10 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:22:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > ("Could you give me some courage?"). Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion Aliera as the Scarecrow Lady Teldra as the Tin Man Verra as the Good Witch of the North Sorceress in Green as the Wicked Witch of the West Sethra the Younger as the Wicked Witch of the East Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain Kragar, Malestav, and Glowbug as the Lolipop Guild Soundtrack by America available on PolyGram records From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 12:38:11 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:38:11 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ike Porter Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/16/05 12:22 PM To cc Dragaera List Subject I've a feeling... > Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz > Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain Shouldn't that be t'other way round? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 16 12:44:21 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Ike Porter wrote: > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto Kragar sings: "If I only had a half-way-reliable-visibility, I'd be heading up an army and Vlad would never be so smarmy, If I only had a half-way-reliable-visibility." From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 16 12:48:25 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Ike Porter : > > > Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz > > Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain > > Shouldn't that be t'other way round? No, no, it's Paarfi/Sethra. "I've a feeling." Once more, with it. Sethra as Giles, Mario as Buffy, Vlad as Faith... From ike at manor.org Fri Dec 16 12:50:10 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz > > Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain > > Shouldn't that be t'other way round? I thought about it for awhile and decided that Oz was the mask of the man behind the curtain. From howard at brazee.net Fri Dec 16 12:50:39 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:50:39 -0700 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A3289F.3060507@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >I> Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz >> Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain > >Shouldn't that be t'other way round? > >Majikjon > > Obviously. Except what is obvious isn't always right. And the more I think about it, the more I like it as stated. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 12:57:38 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:57:38 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/16/05 12:48 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: I've a feeling... > Once more, with it. Sethra as Giles, Mario as Buffy, Vlad as Faith... Is that one called "Mario: The Empire Slayer"? Majikjon From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Dec 16 13:02:10 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> On 15 Dec 2005 at 16:21, Davdi Silverrock wrote > > He was a Jhereg. A *courteous* (as in "courtier") Jhereg, but > nevertheless a Jhereg. > But all Jhereg are hybrids, as I keep having to emphasize. My brain is not fully engaged (office holiday party...) however, I seem to remember Alieria (?) telling Vald that the Jhereg began as castoffs from other tribes, a mishmash of genetics, but over time "even a mishmash becomes recognizable". This, to me, seems to indicate that while the Jhereg once consisted solely of crossbreeds, this is no longer true. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From sraun at fireopal.org Fri Dec 16 13:06:59 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:06:59 -0600 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051216210659.GA13935@fireopal.org> On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 03:22:10PM -0500, Ike Porter wrote: > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > Aliera as the Scarecrow > Lady Teldra as the Tin Man > Verra as the Good Witch of the North > Sorceress in Green as the Wicked Witch of the West > Sethra the Younger as the Wicked Witch of the East > Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz > Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain > Kragar, Malestav, and Glowbug as the Lolipop Guild > > Soundtrack by America available on PolyGram records ROFLOL! And there's no real way I can explain this my co-workers! -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From ike at manor.org Fri Dec 16 13:09:06 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:09:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> References: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Michele Riccio wrote: > My brain is not fully engaged (office holiday party...) however, I seem > to remember Alieria (?) telling Vald that the Jhereg began as castoffs > from other tribes, a mishmash of genetics, but over time "even a > mishmash becomes recognizable". This, to me, seems to indicate that > while the Jhereg once consisted solely of crossbreeds, this is no longer > true. Seems to me that there are Jhereg and there are Jhereg. Some are born into the house, but anyone can buy a title. Further, not all Jhereg are Jhereg in terms of being in the buisness. Doesn't every house have a way of joining outside of birthright? Seems to me Dollivar (?) was able to join House Dzur by besting 17 warriors, such that genetics may play less of a role in membership and only comes to bearing in terms of the leadership of certain houses, or perhaps even only in the leadership or nobles of the Empire. --Brother Ike From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 13:17:43 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:17:43 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ike Porter Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/16/05 01:09 PM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Doesn't every house have a way of joining outside of birthright? Seems to me Dollivar (?) was able to join House Dzur by besting 17 warriors, such that genetics may play less of a role in membership and only comes to bearing in terms of the leadership of certain houses, or perhaps even only in the leadership or nobles of the Empire. Not EVERY house (Lyorn are specifically excluded) and we don't know the requirements for anyone but the Teckla, Dzur, and Jhereg. See http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Joining_Houses for a complete breakdown. Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Fri Dec 16 13:22:00 2005 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:22:00 -0500 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:06:59 CST." <20051216210659.GA13935@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <200512162122.jBGLM2p5029863@vice-grips.mit.edu> > On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 03:22:10PM -0500, Ike Porter wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto > > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > > Aliera as the Scarecrow > > Lady Teldra as the Tin Man > > Verra as the Good Witch of the North > > Sorceress in Green as the Wicked Witch of the West > > Sethra the Younger as the Wicked Witch of the East > > Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz > > Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain > > Kragar, Malestav, and Glowbug as the Lolipop Guild Cawti as Antie Em From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 16 13:22:50 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:22:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Not EVERY house (Lyorn are specifically excluded) and we don't know the > requirements for anyone but the Teckla, Dzur, and Jhereg. I'll bet a kopek that Dragaerans can buy their way into the Orca. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:29:28 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:29:28 -0700 Subject: I've a feeling... References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 1:44 PM Subject: Re: I've a feeling... > > > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Ike Porter wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto > > Kragar sings: > "If I only had a half-way-reliable-visibility, > I'd be heading up an army and Vlad would never be so smarmy, > If I only had a half-way-reliable-visibility." > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion If I were Warlord of the Empire, Not queen, not duke, not prince. My armies of the empire, would be Dragons, not Teckla, not Hawks. I'd command each thing, be it a slave or king. With a smirk and a shrug and a royal scowl - . As I'd click my heel, all my enemies would kneel. And Dzur Mountain bow and the Jenoine kowtow. And the troops would never be bored - If I - If I - were Warlord! Each Captain would show respect to me. The Corporals genuflect to me. Though my sword would flash, I would show compash For every underling! If I - If I - were Warlord! Just Warlord! I would conquor all I survey -- Con-n n n -quor all I survey! Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 13:29:48 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:29:48 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/16/05 01:22 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> >> Not EVERY house (Lyorn are specifically excluded) and we don't know the >> requirements for anyone but the Teckla, Dzur, and Jhereg. > >I'll bet a kopek that Dragaerans can buy their way into the Orca. Possible. But I'd also bet that a) Easterners aren't welcome, b) Crossbreeds aren't welcome, c) It's whole orders of magnitude more expensive than for the Jhereg. Majikjon From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Dec 16 13:28:31 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:28:31 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A32DC2.4010803@brazee.net> References: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> Message-ID: <43A2EB2F.25298.17147B4@localhost> On 16 Dec 2005 at 14:12, Howard Brazee wrote > > What's interesting is the concept that crossbreeds are still being > created. Which crossbreeds are you interesting in meeting? > > What would a Dzur-Yendi be like? > > Or how would a Dzur-Dragon in the House of Jhereg behave? Could act > like Jhereg enough to survive? Maybe he would be a lot like Vlad. > > Of course, we are still too ignorant about too many houses. Maybe an Issola-Yendi: deceptively polite. m Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:52:11 2005 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:52:11 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >To: Philip Hart > >I'll bet a kopek that Dragaerans can buy their way into the Orca. > >Possible. But I'd also bet that a) Easterners aren't welcome, b) >Crossbreeds aren't welcome, c) It's whole orders of magnitude more >expensive than for the Jhereg. > I'd say it's the other way around, as the Jhereg is part of the nobility. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 14:02:09 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:02:09 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Martin Wohlert" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/16/05 01:52 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>To: Philip Hart >> >I'll bet a kopek that Dragaerans can buy their way into the Orca. >> >>Possible. But I'd also bet that a) Easterners aren't welcome, b) >>Crossbreeds aren't welcome, c) It's whole orders of magnitude more >>expensive than for the Jhereg. >> > >I'd say it's the other way around, as the Jhereg is part of the nobility. And the Orca aren't? Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:00:21 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:00:21 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Jeff G. wrote: > > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > > If I were Warlord of the Empire, Not queen, not duke, not prince. > My armies of the empire, would be Dragons, not Teckla, not Hawks. > I'd command each thing, be it a slave or king. > With a smirk and a shrug and a royal scowl - . > As I'd click my heel, all my enemies would kneel. > And Dzur Mountain bow and the Jenoine kowtow. > And the troops would never be bored - If I - If I - were Warlord! > Each Captain would show respect to me. The Corporals genuflect to me. > Though my sword would flash, I would show compash > For every underling! I think this would work slightly better if you complete the word on the next line, thus: > Though my sword would flash, I would show compash- > -ion! For every underling! > If I - If I - were Warlord! > Just Warlord! > I would conquor all I survey -- Con-n n n -quor all I survey! > But otherwise, well, carry on.... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Dec 16 15:01:43 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:01:43 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <1B221EA4.097C40F5.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com 12/16/05 02:47 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: >>"Martin Wohlert" >> >>>Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>>>To: Philip Hart >>>> >I'll bet a kopek that Dragaerans can buy their way into the Orca. >>>> >>>>Possible. But I'd also bet that a) Easterners aren't welcome, b) >>>>Crossbreeds aren't welcome, c) It's whole orders of magnitude more >>>>expensive than for the Jhereg. >>>> >>> >>>I'd say it's the other way around, as the Jhereg is part of the nobility. >> >>And the Orca aren't? > >Orca have titles, but they aren't connected to land (see Vlad's description of a clerical error in _Orca_). Jhereg titles >are (see Vlad talking to Paresh in _Teckla_). Generalizing from one example doesn't always work. SOME Orca titles are empty. Doubtless many Jhereg titles are empty. (I seem to remember that "Lostguard Cleft" (Cawti's title) is imaginary, but I don't know if this is affirmatively stated in the texts, or just implied.) But we know that many Orca DO, in fact, have land. Reega, Vonnith, Endra, Fyres, etc By and large, the sentiment of the books is that the Jhereg are the lowest of the low when it comes to the "noble" classes. Land ownership or not, their status is definitely rock-bottom (saving the Teckla. And Easterners. And Serioli (who apparently feel superior to everyone else). Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:02:35 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:02:35 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Ike Porter wrote: > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > Aliera as the Scarecrow Hmm. I thought this wouldn't work, at first, but then I had a flash of insight. Or something. If I only had a blade! I would cut and I would sliver All my enemies would shiver Fearing to feel pain My sword would be so cutting I wouldn't stop at nothing If I only had a blade... From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:03:18 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:03:18 -0700 Subject: I've a feeling... References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davdi Silverrock" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re: I've a feeling... On 12/16/05, Jeff G. wrote: > > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > > If I were Warlord of the Empire, Not queen, not duke, not prince. > My armies of the empire, would be Dragons, not Teckla, not Hawks. > I'd command each thing, be it a slave or king. > With a smirk and a shrug and a royal scowl - . > As I'd click my heel, all my enemies would kneel. > And Dzur Mountain bow and the Jenoine kowtow. > And the troops would never be bored - If I - If I - were Warlord! > Each Captain would show respect to me. The Corporals genuflect to me. > Though my sword would flash, I would show compash > For every underling! I think this would work slightly better if you complete the word on the next line, thus: > Though my sword would flash, I would show compash- > -ion! For every underling! > If I - If I - were Warlord! > Just Warlord! > I would conquor all I survey -- Con-n n n -quor all I survey! > But otherwise, well, carry on.... I was trying to stay true to the original. . . . Jeff From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:14:28 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:14:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> References: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 15 Dec 2005 at 16:21, Davdi Silverrock wrote > > > > > He was a Jhereg. A *courteous* (as in "courtier") Jhereg, but > > nevertheless a Jhereg. > > But all Jhereg are hybrids, as I keep having to emphasize. > > My brain is not fully engaged (office holiday party...) however, I > seem to remember Alieria (?) telling Vald that the Jhereg began as > castoffs from other tribes, a mishmash of genetics, but over time > "even a mishmash becomes recognizable". This, to me, seems to > indicate that while the Jhereg once consisted solely of crossbreeds, > this is no longer true. > Um. I am not a geneticist, but it seems to me that "mish-mash" is simply the end state of unrestricted crossbreeding. Think of it this way: Say you have 31 colors of beads (corresponding to traits unique to each original tribe). 16 sets of colors only mix with each other; however, the 17th set can be any combination of the original 31 colors. Now, a mix of two out of the original 16 colors would be obviously a mix, consisting of two distinct colors - but so too is a mix of a combination of the 31. The mixture of 31 is "recognizable" exactly because it has so *many* of the varied colors of the 31, but it is thus still a mixture. Or at least, I think that's how it works, and until a geneticist informs me otherwise, that's what I will hold to. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:21:39 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:21:39 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Jeff G. wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Davdi Silverrock" > To: "Dragaera List" > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 4:00 PM > Subject: Re: I've a feeling... > > > On 12/16/05, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > > > > If I were Warlord of the Empire, Not queen, not duke, not prince. > > My armies of the empire, would be Dragons, not Teckla, not Hawks. > > I'd command each thing, be it a slave or king. > > With a smirk and a shrug and a royal scowl - . > > As I'd click my heel, all my enemies would kneel. > > And Dzur Mountain bow and the Jenoine kowtow. > > And the troops would never be bored - If I - If I - were Warlord! > > Each Captain would show respect to me. The Corporals genuflect to me. > > > Though my sword would flash, I would show compash > > For every underling! > > I think this would work slightly better if you complete the word on > the next line, thus: > > > Though my sword would flash, I would show compash- > > -ion! For every underling! > > > If I - If I - were Warlord! > > Just Warlord! > > I would conquor all I survey -- Con-n n n -quor all I survey! > > > > But otherwise, well, carry on.... > > > I was trying to stay true to the original. . . . > Good enough. Well, I guess the scansion is broken in the original. Actually, looking at the original lyrics, I have to think they must have dashed them off with very little in the way of metrical or lyrical attention. "I'll get you, my pretty... and your little doggerel too!" From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:28:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:28:01 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Ike Porter wrote: > Aliera as the Scarecrow And another thought: '"Best way to scare crows," said Mr. Vandemar, "you just creep up behind them and put your hand round their little crow necks and squeeze until they don't move anymore. That scares the stuffing out of them."' From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Dec 16 17:15:48 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/16/05, Michele Riccio wrote: > > My brain is not fully engaged (office holiday party...) however, I > > seem to remember Alieria (?) telling Vald that the Jhereg began as > > castoffs from other tribes, a mishmash of genetics, but over time > > "even a mishmash becomes recognizable". This, to me, seems to > > Um. I am not a geneticist, but it seems to me that "mish-mash" is > simply the end state of unrestricted crossbreeding. Neutral drift, selection, etc. might well lead to a recognizable mishmash. There might, in other words, maybe even the right ones, a definite Jhereg haplotype. IANAG, though. From bryann at bryann.net Fri Dec 16 18:28:31 2005 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:28:31 -0600 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> Message-ID: <000e01c602b1$92dafd50$6501a8c0@dell> > > But all Jhereg are hybrids, as I keep having to emphasize. > > I seem to remember Alieria (?) telling Vald that the > Jhereg began as castoffs from other tribes, a mishmash of > genetics, but over time "even a mishmash becomes > recognizable". That would be Jhereg Chapter 9, which is chock full of relevant text: "Vlad," [Aliera] said slowly, "he has Dragon genes." I digested that. "You're sure? No possible doubt?" "None. If I'd wanted to take more time, I could have told you which line of the Dragons. But that isn't all--he's a cross-breed." "Indeed?" was all I said. Cross-breeds were rare, and almost never accepted by any House except the Jhereg. ... She nodded. "He's clearly got three Houses in his genes. Dragon and Dzur on one side, and Jhereg on the other." "Hmmmm. I see. I wasn't aware that you could identify Jhereg genes as such. I 'd thought that they were just a mish-mash of all the other Houses." She smiled. "If you get a mish-mash, as you put it, together for enough generations, it becomes identifiable as something in and of itself." ... "I'm surprised that the Jenoine wasted their time breeding an animal like the Jhereg into some Dragaerans," I said. ... "Oh," said Aliera, "but they didn't ... "they never put any jhereg genes into Dragaerans ... "there were a lot of outcasts, mostly living in small groups ... "they got together, and, I guess more sarcastically than anything else, began calling themselves 'the tribe of the Jhereg.'" > This, to me, seems to indicate that while the Jhereg > once consisted solely of crossbreeds, this is no longer > true. The only part of this I would disagree with is the "solely". I would guess that they started out as a mixture of some cross-breeds but probably mostly pure-blood outcasts of other Houses, and certain families might even have retained their original genetic purity through the generations, but presumably since the House first "formed", there has been enough cross-breeding over the subsequent thousands of years that an identifiable gene has emerged that probably applies to most Dragaerans born into the House of Jhereg (ie, not Kragar or Vlad). See Also: speciation, Theseus' Ship, seat of consciousness Bryan From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 06:31:42 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 07:31:42 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <000e01c602b1$92dafd50$6501a8c0@dell> References: <43A2E502.32237.15925F8@localhost> <000e01c602b1$92dafd50$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512170631n729aa02bqd2b67c09658750a4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/16/05, Bryan Newell wrote: > See Also: speciation, Theseus' Ship, seat of consciousness > http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/theseus.html Plato is probably the source of this "paradoxical" interpretation of Herclitus. According to Plato, Heraclitus maintains that nothing retains its identity for any time at all: "Heraclitus, you know, says that everything moves on and that nothing is at rest; and, comparing existing things to the flow of a river, he says that you could not step into the same river twice" (*Cratylus *402A). A very Brustian topic, with shades of Paarfi's mythographer-friend. "The first time I met Paarfi of Roundwood..." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From steve at romlin.com Sat Dec 17 13:59:02 2005 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:59:02 +0100 Subject: Yummy Vlad speculation Message-ID: > > "Vlad," [Aliera] said slowly, "he has Dragon genes." > I digested that. "You're sure? No possible doubt?" > "None. If I'd wanted to take more time, I could have told you > which > line of the Dragons. But that isn't all--he's a cross-breed." > "Indeed?" was all I said. Cross-breeds were rare, and almost never > accepted by any House except the Jhereg. > ... > She nodded. "He's clearly got three Houses in his genes. Dragon > and Dzur on one side, and Jhereg on the other." Well, isn't that special! We've had plenty of speculation (recently quashed) that Sethra was somehow once Dolivar's lover. But nobody lately has speculated that Sethra might be somehow Vlad's mother! It might explain why she's so nice to him... Dragon/Dzur on one side, huh? Wonder who the lucky Jhereg was? \Steve the Younger From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 17:18:31 2005 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:18:31 -0700 Subject: Yummy Vlad speculation In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512171717n5b858ad9o61559503467664b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0512171717n5b858ad9o61559503467664b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0512171718n2735ad14t9dd2de4fb8331e2@mail.gmail.com> [forward to list] On 12/17/05, Steve Rapaport wrote: [someone wrote] > > She nodded. "He's clearly got three Houses in his genes. Dragon > > and Dzur on one side, and Jhereg on the other." > > Well, isn't that special! We've had plenty of speculation (recently > quashed) that Sethra was somehow once Dolivar's lover. But nobody lately > has speculated that Sethra might be somehow Vlad's mother! You mean Mellar's mother? I don't think she'd appreciate that. And what about the kiss that would have made Cawti jealous, "if she were the jealous type"? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Dec 17 17:30:05 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (lincicum at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 01:30:05 +0000 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) Message-ID: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> > > quashed) that Sethra was somehow once Dolivar's lover. But nobody lately > > has speculated that Sethra might be somehow Vlad's mother! > > You mean Mellar's mother? I don't think she'd appreciate that. > > And what about the kiss that would have made Cawti jealous, "if she > were the jealous type"? > > Max Can undead even have children? (Granted Sethra wasn't always undead, but she has been for hundreds of years prior to Vlad's birth.) I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. (I haven't read Agyar yet, tho, so maybe someone knows more about this than I do.) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Dec 17 17:49:38 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:49:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've > ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. The Buffyverse comments on this in typically heart-wrenching style. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 18:07:34 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:07:34 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: How so? On 12/17/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > > > I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've > > ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. > > The Buffyverse comments on this in typically heart-wrenching style. > From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 18:10:35 2005 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:10:35 -0500 Subject: Yummy Vlad speculation In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512171718n2735ad14t9dd2de4fb8331e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0512171717n5b858ad9o61559503467664b7@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0512171718n2735ad14t9dd2de4fb8331e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Incest? On 12/17/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > [forward to list] > > On 12/17/05, Steve Rapaport wrote: > [someone wrote] > > > She nodded. "He's clearly got three Houses in his > genes. Dragon > > > and Dzur on one side, and Jhereg on the other." > > > > Well, isn't that special! We've had plenty of speculation (recently > > quashed) that Sethra was somehow once Dolivar's lover. But nobody > lately > > has speculated that Sethra might be somehow Vlad's mother! > > You mean Mellar's mother? I don't think she'd appreciate that. > > And what about the kiss that would have made Cawti jealous, "if she > were the jealous type"? > > Max > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 20:00:57 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:00:57 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/16/05, Ike Porter wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto > > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > > Aliera as the Scarecrow > > Hmm. I thought this wouldn't work, at first, but then I had a flash > of insight. Or something. > > If I only had a blade! Take two, after reading through the script online, and hacking[1] up the lyrics appropriately: SCARECROW/ALIERA Do? Why, if I had a blade, I could -- (sings) I could while away the hours, Showing off my powers, Inflictin' death and pain. And foes heads I'd be kickin' While my blade was busy stickin' If I only had a blade. I'd disembowel ev'ry middle Of any individ'le Who dared to cause me pain. VLAD (sings) Your opponents you'd be slayin' They'd be runnin' and a-prayin' If you only had a blade. SCARECROW/ALIERA (sings) Oh, I could make foes fly Make a flood of blood and gore I could carve up things I never sliced before, And then I'd fight -- and whack some more. My blade would be so cuttin' I wouldn't stop at nuttin' Until all my foes were slain. I would slash and I would sliver All my enemies would shiver If I only had a blade! For some reason, I am now thinking of a title: "The Wizard of Oz in 30 seconds and re-enacted by norska, [3] I mean, Dragaerans" _________________________________________ 1: There are *many* synonyms for "cut". [2] 2: But not enough synonyms for "enemy" that fit the meter. Bah. 3: If you don't get it, enable Flash on your browser and go to: http://angryalien.com/ From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 20:27:49 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:27:49 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Ike Porter wrote: > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Perhaps a journey to the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain might help > > ("Could you give me some courage?"). > > Hmm...Vlad/Loiosh as Dorothy/Toto > Morrolan as the Cowardly Lion > Aliera as the Scarecrow > Lady Teldra as the Tin Man I was thinking that it would work better if the Tinman analog were Norathar, and she were seeking not a heart, but a "name", or "face" (as in status). Thus, at the denoument, after Aliera gets her sword, Norathar gets her name (or "face") by Aliera genescanning her and proving that she is pure Dragon, and indeed, the Heir. Since she's the Heir, she can give Morrolan what *he* wants by making him Warlord. Hah! It all works! > Verra as the Good Witch of the North > Sorceress in Green as the Wicked Witch of the West > Sethra the Younger as the Wicked Witch of the East I was thinking that this would work better with the "Wicked Witches" being something else - one of the antagonist Jhereg, or Loraan, or some Jenoine, or some other opponent who meets a *final* death. Hm. How about Loraan as the Wicked Wizard of the East? Vlad gets Loraan's chain (rather than any funny business with shoes), and in the end, it turns out that the chain is what will bring him home, or get him whatever else it is he wants. And, hey, it also works if Loraan is the Wicked Wizard of the West. Vlad: "Didn't I *already* kill him?" Whoever plays "Oz" (booming voice effect): "YOU DIDN'T KILL HIM ENOUGH." > Kiera as the Great and Powerful Oz > Sethra Lavode as the man behind the curtain And as already suggested, how about *Paarfi of Roundwood* as the "Great and Powerful Oz"? He's certainly got the bluster for it. Sethra Lavode still works as the one behind the curtain. Philip Hart will be made happy to see his pet notion supported. > Kragar, Malestav, and Glowbug as the Lolipop Guild Hmph. Or perhaps Kelly and his revolutionaries as the Munchkins (Easterners are short, right?) Verra (or whoever plays Glinda): "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?" Vlad (shrugging): "I'm the second-best witch that I know of, and my grandfather isn't here at the moment." From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Dec 18 13:32:51 2005 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Louis Eastman wrote: > How so? > On 12/17/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > > > > > I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've > > > ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. > > > > The Buffyverse comments on this in typically heart-wrenching style. Honking big Buffy and Angel spoilers. Seriously, if you don't want Buffy and Angel spoiled, skip this. So in the Buffyverse, Angel is a vampire cursed with a soul - cursed in that he is wracked with remorse for his earlier unlife of murder and mayhem, and if he's ever happy again he'll lose his soul. He was sired by a vampire named Darla, who is killed in Buffy but brought back as a human by some evil lawyers with the goal of destroying Angel. After various awful events, Darla is a vampire again, Angel is in despair (D to A: "God doesn't want you, but I do."), and they have a fling (risking Angel's soul due to the terms of the curse). Darla, to everyone's shock, becomes pregnant. As a result of this, she gets some share of the baby's human soul and, like Angel, is tormented by guilt. Drama this, drama that, a vampire can't give birth, Darla kills herself so the baby can be born. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 18 14:06:28 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:06:28 -0800 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) *Buffy/Angel Spoilers* In-Reply-To: References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Louis Eastman wrote: > > > > > >Honking big Buffy and Angel spoilers. > > > > > > > >Seriously, if you don't want Buffy and Angel spoiled, skip this. > > > > > > > > >So in the Buffyverse, Angel is a vampire cursed with a soul - cursed in >that he is wracked with remorse for his earlier unlife of murder and >mayhem, and if he's ever happy again he'll lose his soul. He was sired >by a vampire named Darla, who is killed in Buffy but brought back as a >human by some evil lawyers with the goal of destroying Angel. After >various awful events, Darla is a vampire again, Angel is in despair >(D to A: "God doesn't want you, but I do."), and they have a fling >(risking Angel's soul due to the terms of the curse). Darla, to >everyone's shock, becomes pregnant. As a result of this, she gets >some share of the baby's human soul and, like Angel, is tormented by >guilt. Drama this, drama that, a vampire can't give birth, Darla kills >herself so the baby can be born. > Well, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that this ground has been covered by someone (despite many of my friends recommending it, I've yet to watch any real amount of Buffy) but it would appear that even in that universe, Vampires don't "have kids" that would make it really work for Vlad to be Sethra's son. And Aliera was a disembodied soul at the time, so she's out too. What living female characters are left to be Vlad's mom candidates? Ibronka? Roaana? The Sorceress in Green? StY? (Of course, these are all Dragaerans, and we don't really know if the crossbreeding thing is possible or not (see previous threads)). But if we can't count Dragaeran characters, we've got damn few Easterner females as candidates... Pretty much limited to some of the rabble-rousers from /Teckla/, or maybe some of the side-characters from /Brokedown Palace/.(Mariska, Maybe?) I suspect Vlad's Mom just hasn't appeared in the books at all. (Since it seems about 50/50 she's dead anyway). Majikjon From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Sun Dec 18 14:29:47 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:29:47 -0600 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) *Buffy/Angel Spoilers* In-Reply-To: <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A5E2DB.9040204@comcast.net> I have always been sure in my own mind that Vlad's mother was mentioned in Brokedown Palace. Mia From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Dec 18 16:08:25 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:08:25 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation)*Buffy/Angel Spoilers* Message-ID: <3BC443F0.66186A51.00048EA6@aol.com> Mia McDavid writes: > I have always been sure in my own mind that Vlad's mother was > mentioned in Brokedown Palace. No, Brigitta is Cawti's mom. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Dec 19 04:36:31 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:36:31 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A6A94F.6020105@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > > > >>I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've >>ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. >> >> > >The Buffyverse comments on this in typically heart-wrenching style. > > In Glen Cook's Garrett files, in the first case (=Sweet Silver Blues=) Garrett finds a nest of vampires containing the Bloodmaster, other males, vampire "brides" & children. The "brides" haven't completed changeover yet, but are infected, contagious, & bloodthirsty, not to mention light-sensitive. Pregnancy would be an expected part of life for them. Garrett opines that nothing would be able to bring a woman back from the Undead once she had given birth to a "soulless brat." Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 19 06:36:00 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 06:36:00 -0800 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sooo... Sethra is not *Vlad's* mother. Sethra was not Dolivar's lover. What if Sethra is *Dolivar's mother*? This might account for the feelings of affection for Vlad, the reason Sethra didn't "Hamstring the Yendi" Dolivar back in the early days, and would allow her to give a deep kiss to Vlad, since while she's not a genetic relation to him, she's still got some pretty serious attachment to the person that he is. The genetics for this also works out much better, although it might give Dolivar a "hint of Dzur" in the ancestry that was supposedly 100% Dragon. Majikjon From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 07:53:40 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:53:40 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Sooo... > >Sethra is not *Vlad's* mother. > >Sethra was not Dolivar's lover. > >What if Sethra is *Dolivar's mother*? > >This might account for the feelings of affection for Vlad, the reason >Sethra didn't "Hamstring the Yendi" Dolivar back in the early days, and >would allow her to give a deep kiss to Vlad, since while she's not a >genetic relation to him, she's still got some pretty serious attachment to >the person that he is. > >The genetics for this also works out much better, although it might give >Dolivar a "hint of Dzur" in the ancestry that was supposedly 100% Dragon. > > Not just 100% Dragon, but the most famous Dragon family: Dolivar and Kieron are brothers, making Kieron have a hint of Dzur. Not to mention the other sibling that eventually reincarnates as Aliera. I don't know. I think Sethra probably has had no children, being too occupied with raising the Empire instead. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 19 07:53:53 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:53:53 -0700 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Maximilian Wilson" ; "Dragaera List" Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) > > > quashed) that Sethra was somehow once Dolivar's lover. But nobody lately > > > has speculated that Sethra might be somehow Vlad's mother! > > > > You mean Mellar's mother? I don't think she'd appreciate that. > > > > And what about the kiss that would have made Cawti jealous, "if she > > were the jealous type"? > > > > Max > > Can undead even have children? (Granted Sethra wasn't always undead, but she has been for hundreds of years prior to Vlad's birth.) > > I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. (I haven't read Agyar yet, tho, so maybe someone knows more about this than I do.) > > Majikjon > Never read the "Blade" comic? Or seen the movies? Not much of a plot, but some of the fight scenes are fairly good, it helps when the actor actually knows what he is doing. From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 19 10:31:19 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:31:19 -0700 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> References: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> Jose Marquez wrote: >Not just 100% Dragon, but the most famous Dragon family: Dolivar and >Kieron are brothers, making Kieron have a hint of Dzur. Not to mention >the other sibling that eventually reincarnates as Aliera. I don't know. >I think Sethra probably has had no children, being too occupied with >raising the Empire instead. > >Jose > > > If a Dragon accepts the challenge to become a Dzur - are his children part Dzur as well? From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 11:54:35 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:54:35 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> References: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43A70FFB.1090801@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > Jose Marquez wrote: > >> Not just 100% Dragon, but the most famous Dragon family: Dolivar and >> Kieron are brothers, making Kieron have a hint of Dzur. Not to >> mention the other sibling that eventually reincarnates as Aliera. I >> don't know. I think Sethra probably has had no children, being too >> occupied with raising the Empire instead. >> >> Jose >> >> >> > If a Dragon accepts the challenge to become a Dzur - are his children > part Dzur as well? Why would any self-respecting Dragon want to become a Dzur? *grin* I'd imagine his children would have to be tested, prowess-wise, to be considered Dzur, assuming they are full-blood Dragon. But the pride of the House of the Dragon would suggest to me that if you are a Dragon and really really really want to be a Dzur, you're not really a Dragon (i.e., you'll leave the House or get kicked out). If you raise your children to want to be Dzur and they rebel by wanting to be Dragons, you might have a problem on your hands: there's no guarantee that the offspring of a disavowed Dragon would be welcomed back into the House. We've discussed cross-House desire with regard to individuals from different Houses getting together romantically and even sexually; I wonder if there are any instances of an individual clearly of one House wanting to be in another, at least among the High Houses. Teckla wanting to be Dragons or Dzur is perfectly natural and understandable; I'm thinking more along the lines you suggest, of a Dragon wanting to be Dzur, or vice versa. It seems that your House identity is so ingrained that this would indeed be odd. This House identity was established genetically by the Jenoine (combining humans and animals) and reinforced by the Cycle (your genetic House increases in mystical ascendancy as your turn to reign approaches and decreases afterward) and the Gods (they hold the keys to reincarnation, so I imagine Dragaerans rarely leave their original Houses when reincarnated [generalizing from Aliera's example and to a lesser extent, Vlad's]). Jose, making it up as he goes along -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 19 12:02:46 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:02:46 -0700 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A70FFB.1090801@earthlink.net> References: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> <43A70FFB.1090801@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A711E6.5020609@brazee.net> Jose Marquez wrote: >> If a Dragon accepts the challenge to become a Dzur - are his children >> part Dzur as well? > >Why would any self-respecting Dragon want to become a Dzur? *grin* > > As a bet. Maybe for revenge (we have seen that this is a valid reason to become a Dzur). Pride can get one into trouble. If he was forced to choose between one or the other, he would probably go through the gauntlet again or risk war or whatever to pick Dragon. But not necessarily - there are higher causes that he would be honor bound to accept. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Dec 19 12:44:15 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:44:15 -0800 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A711E6.5020609@brazee.net> Message-ID: <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Wanting Sethra to be Vlad's mother or some similar relational situation between our lead protagonists strikes me to be analgous to wanting the two lead characters in a situation comedy to finally "get together" after several seasons of romantic and/or sexual tension. The problem is that "getting together" hardly ever adds anything to the show and nearly always heralds its upcoming death as it turns out that the "tension" was what made the show enjoyable. I don't see any mileage to be gained by having Vlad be related to or have relations with any of his Dragaeran acquaintances, particularly Sethra. Being the carrier of Dolivar's reincarnated soul is already close enough to the bone for such purposes. In light of _Orca_, it might be interesting for Vlad to have a "moment" when he remembers what it felt like to fantasize about "getting together" with Kiera as a teenager, (especially if he discussed this tidbit with Sethra) but given his strong feelings at that age about Dragaerans in general that might never have really happened either. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 19 12:56:44 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:56:44 -0800 Subject: The bain of Fandom: Wants vs Needs In-Reply-To: <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/19/2005 12:44 PM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) >Wanting Sethra to be Vlad's mother or some similar relational situation >between our lead protagonists strikes me to be analgous to wanting the two >lead characters in a situation comedy to finally "get together" after >several seasons of romantic and/or sexual tension. > >The problem is that "getting together" hardly ever adds anything to the show >and nearly always heralds its upcoming death as it turns out that the >"tension" was what made the show enjoyable. > >I don't see any mileage to be gained by having Vlad be related to or have >relations with any of his Dragaeran acquaintances, particularly Sethra. >Being the carrier of Dolivar's reincarnated soul is already close enough to >the bone for such purposes. I really couldn't agree more. One of the problems with fandom in general, and SF fans in particular is that what the fans of a series *think* they want to see, and what they actually *enjoy* seeing are often completely unrelated to one another. (This, I believe, has been the utter death of the Star Trek franchise--all too often the producers are asking themselves "What do the fans want to see?" instead of "What makes a good story?") As Aerich would say, "The question is wrong." Still, the point, as far as I understand it, of this discussion forum, is to speculate and ponder the "what-ifs" of the stories in ways that Steve (hopefully) will never feel inclined to answer. Most of what we talk about should *never* be published or repeated anywhere else. At the same time, you never know when a good idea or two will be able to spring forth from this huge pile of speculative bullcrap fertilizer. I dunno. That's just the way I see it. >In light of _Orca_, it might be interesting for Vlad to have a "moment" when >he remembers what it felt like to fantasize about "getting together" with >Kiera as a teenager, (especially if he discussed this tidbit with Sethra) >but given his strong feelings at that age about Dragaerans in general that >might never have really happened either. Interesting idea. I don't really know how likely it is that we will see any more stories from the "early years" of Vlad (up through Phoenix), since that area seems to be pretty well filled in by now. Maybe a separate story that runs concurently with one of the others? (Say, around the time of Yendi? or Dragon?) Still, this kind of thing could also come up in a flashback, I suppose. Majikjon From goannaman at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 13:24:49 2005 From: goannaman at gmail.com (Jay Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:24:49 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <43A711E6.5020609@brazee.net> <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > > In light of _Orca_, it might be interesting for Vlad to have a "moment" > when > he remembers what it felt like to fantasize about "getting together" with > Kiera as a teenager, (especially if he discussed this tidbit with Sethra) > but given his strong feelings at that age about Dragaerans in general that > might never have really happened either. Speaking of my remembrances of being a teenage boy, I doubt his hatred of the race in general would have kept him from fantasizing about a beautiful female... even if she happened to be a Dragaeran. From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Dec 19 09:12:52 2005 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:12:52 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: Message-ID: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: Each House has their own standards for behaviour > > and someone (like, oh, say, Kragar) may get booted from their House > > for violating those standards, and find the prospect of being a Jhereg > > preferable to being a Teckla. > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why > Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into > House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving > commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per > se). IIRC, when Vlad was killed in Yendi, he ended up giving a temporarily fatal lesson to one of his henchmen when he came back to the office, apparently because Kragar had let standards slip so badly while Vlad was dead but getting better that said henchman made a really obviously stupid mistake. That kind of "poor order giving", ie, a command ability to ruin his subordinate's knowledge of what the heck they're doing in only a few days is not good, from a military perspective, although possibly not from a civil one. Ie, it doesn't matter that Kragar is apparently a very good at making his boss look good (even to the point of disobeying in order to save said boss's ass - see the restaurant scene where Vlad would have been assassinated if Kragar hadn't disobeyed), since in a military situation, if the boss gets killed in battle the next guy in rank has to take over, with rather bad results if he can't do the job. Civil situations it doesn't matter quite so much. So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get kicked out? This assumes that the thing about Dragons wanting recognition for their ability (by being promoted to leading as many as they prove worthy of), is a strong trait, so that keeping a Dragon around to be useful, but carefully unpromoted to keep him out of the chain of command, leads to a very unhappy Dragon and a really nasty revenge on the ones who got promoted over him without being better at the job. Alternatively, if Kragar's possible ability to ruin an army's professionalism while in command led to a particularly humiliating and multiply-fatal-to-favorite-scions-of-important-families defeat, internal politics could lead to getting kicked out too. Karen Karen From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 16:35:31 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:35:31 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512172113k536e548av62e93a86833826d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0512172113k536e548av62e93a86833826d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/17/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > And as already suggested, how about *Paarfi of Roundwood* as the > > "Great and Powerful Oz"? He's certainly got the bluster for it. > > Sethra Lavode still works as the one behind the curtain. > > I like this one a lot. > > > > Kragar, Malestav, and Glowbug as the Lolipop Guild > > > > Hmph. Or perhaps Kelly and his revolutionaries as the Munchkins > > (Easterners are short, right?) > > Just as long as it's someone suitably menacing, with a bunch of pointy > things backing them up. "We are members of the Confectioner's Union 289 (x3). We welcome you to our collective action meeting!" (in somewhat menacing tones): "Are you a good worker... or a /scab/ worker?" > > Verra (or whoever plays Glinda): "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?" > > Vlad (shrugging): "I'm the second-best witch that I know of, and my > > grandfather isn't here at the moment." > > Heh. > I've thought of a better match for Glinda: Daymar. Or better yet, portmanteau the names: Glindaymar It fits, with the whole "*suprised look* but you didn't *ask*!" thing (that is, Glindaymar arrives after Vlad has found out that the Great and Terrible Paarfi might know how to send him home, and therefore hasn't heard him ask how to get home). From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 16:58:40 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:58:40 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to clarify when I'm thinking this takes place: It's just after the events of /Phoenix/, before Vlad takes off from Adrilankha for good. He's in Castle Black, and he's wandered up the steps one last time of Morrolan's tower, the one which has no windows on the outside. He watches the shifting windows, and conceives of the idea that perhaps one of the worlds through the windows will have a place where he can hide out for a while. As the scene through the windows shift, he spots one in particular with bright blue skies, green fields, and other bright primary colors, contrasting strongly with the black stone of the tower room and everything in it. Vlad, focusing on the window and willing it to remain, begins to sing. Loiosh, naturally, makes snarky remarks to him that the whole thing will end in tears. VLAD, singing: Somewhere, through Verra's Window, way up high, There's a plane of existence that might be worth a try. /Boss, do you really think it's worth the risk?/ /I'm considering it, as I wax melancholy./ /Who is melancholy, and why have you never introduced her to me?/ /Shut up, Loiosh./ Somewhere, through Verra's Window, skies are blue, /If you want blue skies, we can always go out East!/ /Shut up, Loiosh. This here is a *bluer* blue. And, hey, maybe that *is* the East!/ And the dreams that you dare to dream really do come true. /Boss, you know you've had dreams that you really, really, don't want to come true./ /Right now, my dream is to not be assassinated with a weapon that will DESTROY MY SOUL!/ /Good enough. Point to you./ I think I'll dash off a quick note So Morrolan won't have a goat or fear for me. /Morrolan? Fear? You *are* referring to the Morrolan we know, yes?/ /Well, he might worry a *bit*./ (Vlad scribbles down the essence of what he's about to do on a piece of paper, and leaves it on the floor.) The Jhereg won't know what to do Nor know which window to go through They'll never find me. /Have you thought about how you're going to get *back*?/ /Uh... We'll work something out./ /Who's *we*?/ Somewhere, through Verra's Window, demons fly. They fly through Verra's Window, Why then -- oh, why can't I? /Because you don't have *wings*, you great big... human!/ /That's "fly" as in "move quickly" or "flee". And it's metaphorical anyway!/ If eldritch undead demons fly Through Verra's Window Why, oh, why can't I? /Because it would be a really, really bad idea?/ /Shut up, Loiosh. I'm feeling reckless!/ VLAD, with LOIOSH, LEAPS through (one of) Verra's Window('s) into a world that looks bright, shiny, happy, colorful, hectic and... Odd. Very, very Odd. V&L, together: /Oh, craaaaaaap!/ From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 14:29:34 2005 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) Message-ID: <20051220222934.9265.qmail@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? That would make Aliera his sister both biologically (except for difference in species) and spiritually, explaining why she puts up with/likes Vlad. Maybe if Verra has a child with a Dragaeran, then the child is Dragaeran. If she has a child with an Easterner, then the child is an Easterner. This could explain Vlad's father's dislike of Vlad learning witchcraft, because he may figure things out. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:33:51 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:33:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512070735x660650e5u280d3960f7f93c27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051221033351.3603.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/6/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > We were planning on having you go through the archives and repost > > everything with flags attached to get around that problem. > > Ah, but he wouldn't know what the flags *meant* until March either. > > ;) Oh, yes I would. Just because this thread subject starts with "A", and I'm selecting for "unread only, sorted by subject". > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. ... But be cheerful if it kills your enemies. mam/c&s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:41:33 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:41:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <78178A8A-D10D-41E9-A28E-846F5144F117@mac.com> Message-ID: <20051221034133.98422.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > On Nov 29, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>> On 11/28/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > >>> wrote: > >>> However, some animals on earth have their own name as a plural (i.e > > Moose, > >>> Fish, Orca) and since the house names are all based on animal names, > >>> self-pluralizing makes as much sense as any other approach. > > Here are some more examples from our world: > > > > bison, deer, sheep, swine I think this happens with names of herd animals. 'Wolves', 'lions', 'foxes', and names of other carnivores pluralize; names of primates do; 'sharks', 'rays'... I can't think of what distinguishes the pluralizing waterdwellers. mam/c&s/dw __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:44:39 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:44:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <438E4F80.4030701@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051221034439.8053.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon Lincicum wrote: > I really AM a Lyorn, aren't I? > > Incidentally, I recently added a new page to the wikicity all of you > might be interested in, it's a "Dramtis Locali" page, in the spirit of > the :"Dramatis Personae" page, only this one with place names (Bryan, > are you paying attention?). > > This particular pearl od wisdom can be found at: > > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali Bravo! Only it should be "Dramatis Loci". dr. whom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:54:03 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I'm not sure I agree. Well, we have our Internet equivalences of "equivalents" > > winking, but I loved it when I read my first Hiaasen book. I started > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. No, SKZB never did that. What he did say was something like this: "I don't want to give definite descriptions of everything before I need it, because then I'd be stuck with them. If I said, for instance, that a tsalmoth was a giant land snail that climbs trees and tries to capture its prey by dropping down on it, then I'd be stuck with that description forever." It was a purely hypothetical, contrary-to-fact example, which was then misremembered and spread as a false rumor by readers of wherever he said it. The exact quote is somewhere in the list archive. I found it at one point and posted it here earlier. If anyone can dig it up again, please do us all a favor by adding it to the wiki page "Tsalmoth (animal)", http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 mam/c&s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 20 19:53:33 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (lincicum at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:53:33 +0000 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: <122120050353.8027.43A8D1BD000078B700001F5B2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Mark A. Mandel" > > This particular pearl of wisdom can be found at: > > > > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali > > Bravo! Only it should be "Dramatis Loci". According to the online Latin-English dictionary I consulted, the translations are as follows: Loci=Places Locali=Locations Now, I don't speak Latin (who does?), and have only studied it informally. Also, I don't know if there is an established convention for lists of place names in literature; but it seems to me that either of these would be valid. But I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:14:05 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:14:05 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, K Kuhn wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why > > Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into > > House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving > > commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per > > se). > > IIRC, when Vlad was killed in Yendi, he ended up giving a temporarily > fatal lesson to one of his henchmen when he came back to the office, > apparently because Kragar had let standards slip so badly while Vlad was > dead but getting better that said henchman made a really obviously > stupid mistake. That kind of "poor order giving", ie, a command ability > to ruin his subordinate's knowledge of what the heck they're doing in > only a few days is not good, from a military perspective, although > possibly not from a civil one. > > Ie, it doesn't matter that Kragar is apparently a very good at making > his boss look good (even to the point of disobeying in order to save > said boss's ass - see the restaurant scene where Vlad would have been > assassinated if Kragar hadn't disobeyed), since in a military situation, > if the boss gets killed in battle the next guy in rank has to take over, > with rather bad results if he can't do the job. Civil situations it > doesn't matter quite so much. So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so > dangerous to a primarily military house like the Dragons (given that > he's good enough at getting things done to be promoted, but absolutely > horrible at being in charge), that he'd get kicked out? I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with it. Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means that whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made the mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group goes into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his subordinates aren't paying attention to him. > This assumes that the thing about Dragons wanting recognition for their > ability (by being promoted to leading as many as they prove worthy of), > is a strong trait, so that keeping a Dragon around to be useful, but > carefully unpromoted to keep him out of the chain of command, leads to a > very unhappy Dragon and a really nasty revenge on the ones who got > promoted over him without being better at the job. Again, we've seen Dragons who were not in fact ambitious for higher command, so I see problems with that. > Alternatively, if Kragar's possible ability to ruin an army's > professionalism while in command led to a particularly humiliating and > multiply-fatal-to-favorite-scions-of-important-families defeat, internal > politics could lead to getting kicked out too. > Well... Actually, I did just now think of another scenario. Let's say that Kragar was at a rank that he was comfortable with, as an aide to some real officer, which put him in the chain of command, but no real prospects for advancement, nor really wanting any. And perhaps this officer *used* Kragar (and his extreme sneakitude) in ways that Dragons would frown upon - that is, in sabotaging *fellow* officers, perhaps by intercepting intelligence and presenting it as being his (or her, Dragaerans being equal-opportunity) own, or messing with them in other petty ways to gya's own advancement, all-in-all being conduct unbecoming to an officer. And perhaps this officer gets gyaself killed in battle, so Kragar's problems with being in command are brought to the fore as he has to handle things himself. Hmm. We might even posit that the officer was discovered, and the sabotage *was* considered as being over the line of treason, and the officer was executed. So, ordinarily, just being "not-listenable" wouldn't have gotten Kragar kicked out, but combine that with his role in the sabotage being discovered... Perhaps Kragar was only spared death since he was obeying orders, but "should have known" that he should not have obeyed such orders. Perhaps there actually is some sort of clause or basis for ejection from the House for conduct unbecoming to a Dragon. Hmm. Maybe. Although that doesn't explain the sneakitude itself. Unless... Unless perhaps the officer posited was responsible for that as well - perhaps a sorcerer or psychic specializing in creating stealth illusions? And that explains Kragar's friendship with Daymar; no one was able to figure out how to undo the "stealth mode" besides the original officer, and Kragar became more and more desperate to find someone or something that would undo it (and obviously, failing, even with Daymar)? Shrug. Perhaps I ought to add that to Speculation:Kragar as well... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:45:33 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:45:33 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. > > No, SKZB never did that. What he did say was something like this: "I don't > want to give definite descriptions of everything before I need it, because > then I'd be stuck with them. If I said, for instance, that a tsalmoth was > a giant land snail that climbs trees and tries to capture its prey by > dropping down on it, then I'd be stuck with that description forever." It > was a purely hypothetical, contrary-to-fact example, which was then > misremembered and spread as a false rumor by readers of wherever he said > it. I know what you're referring to (it's in an interview here): http://scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html However, I *think* (and SKZB may feel free to correct me) that at some convention or other event, Steve did actually say, in a *facetious* mode, that that (or something similar, like a turtle) is what tsalmoth are, and was misunderstood as being serious, and that is what the interview statement refers to. This post confirms that *someone* heard Steve directly (and did not get it from the interview, which was given in 2001, 7 years after this post (which is also more than a decade ago now, sheesh). I did not attend MOC (whatever that may be) [1], but perhaps someone else does recall hearing Steve say something like this? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/a4476d1ac4fe7b45?dmode=source __________________ [1] MOC appears to be an overloaded TLA - Google references both a "Mid-Ohio Con" and a "Magnum Opus Con". Sigh. Although since the Mid-Ohio one appears to be more of a comics event, perhaps "Magnum Opus Con" was indeed what was meant. From ike at manor.org Wed Dec 21 06:30:00 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:30:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with it. > Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a > military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at > the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means that > whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made the > mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group goes > into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample > opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his > subordinates aren't paying attention to him. Brain slow today, hopefully this makes sense: What you say would certainly be valid if Kragar had been in the imperial army, but I've always envisioned it happening with Kragar being a nobleman collecting his surrounding forces in order to join in the larger army to assault the guy over there who pissed off the local lord at the party last night. From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Dec 21 08:45:46 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:45:46 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221114238.0256c5f0@cox.net> At 04:45 AM 12/21/2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 12/20/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > > > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > > > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > > > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. > > > > No, SKZB never did that. What he did say was something like this: "I don't > > want to give definite descriptions of everything before I need it, because > > then I'd be stuck with them. If I said, for instance, that a tsalmoth was > > a giant land snail that climbs trees and tries to capture its prey by > > dropping down on it, then I'd be stuck with that description forever." It > > was a purely hypothetical, contrary-to-fact example, which was then > > misremembered and spread as a false rumor by readers of wherever he said > > it. > >I know what you're referring to (it's in an interview here): > > http://scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html > >However, I *think* (and SKZB may feel free to correct me) that at some >convention or other event, Steve did actually say, in a *facetious* >mode, that that (or something similar, like a turtle) is what tsalmoth >are, and was misunderstood as being serious, and that is what the >interview statement refers to. > >This post confirms that *someone* heard Steve directly (and did not >get it from the interview, which was given in 2001, 7 years after this >post (which is also more than a decade ago now, sheesh). I did not >attend MOC (whatever that may be) [1], but perhaps someone else does >recall hearing Steve say something like this? > >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/a4476d1ac4fe7b45?dmode=source Personally, I think that Steve was faced with a bunch of Draggies (the Dragaeran equivalent of Trekkies), got sick and tired of answering all the questions, and gave the most outrageous answer for Tsalmoth that he could think of at the time. The Draggies being entirely without humor, of course, took every word he said as absolute truth. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Dec 21 08:51:26 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:51:26 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> You know, Kragar, as I remember, done TOLE Vlad why he was a Jhereg, not a Dragon, and it didn't involve a single instance of the word "perhaps". At 04:14 AM 12/21/2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 12/19/05, K Kuhn wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > > > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > > > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > > > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > > > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why > > > Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into > > > House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving > > > commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per > > > se). > > > > IIRC, when Vlad was killed in Yendi, he ended up giving a temporarily > > fatal lesson to one of his henchmen when he came back to the office, > > apparently because Kragar had let standards slip so badly while Vlad was > > dead but getting better that said henchman made a really obviously > > stupid mistake. That kind of "poor order giving", ie, a command ability > > to ruin his subordinate's knowledge of what the heck they're doing in > > only a few days is not good, from a military perspective, although > > possibly not from a civil one. > > > > Ie, it doesn't matter that Kragar is apparently a very good at making > > his boss look good (even to the point of disobeying in order to save > > said boss's ass - see the restaurant scene where Vlad would have been > > assassinated if Kragar hadn't disobeyed), since in a military situation, > > if the boss gets killed in battle the next guy in rank has to take over, > > with rather bad results if he can't do the job. Civil situations it > > doesn't matter quite so much. So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so > > dangerous to a primarily military house like the Dragons (given that > > he's good enough at getting things done to be promoted, but absolutely > > horrible at being in charge), that he'd get kicked out? > >I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with >it. Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a >military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at >the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means >that whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made >the mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group >goes into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample >opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his >subordinates aren't paying attention to him. > > > This assumes that the thing about Dragons wanting recognition for their > > ability (by being promoted to leading as many as they prove worthy of), > > is a strong trait, so that keeping a Dragon around to be useful, but > > carefully unpromoted to keep him out of the chain of command, leads to a > > very unhappy Dragon and a really nasty revenge on the ones who got > > promoted over him without being better at the job. > >Again, we've seen Dragons who were not in fact ambitious for higher >command, so I see problems with that. > > > Alternatively, if Kragar's possible ability to ruin an army's > > professionalism while in command led to a particularly humiliating and > > multiply-fatal-to-favorite-scions-of-important-families defeat, internal > > politics could lead to getting kicked out too. > > > >Well... > >Actually, I did just now think of another scenario. Let's say that >Kragar was at a rank that he was comfortable with, as an aide to some >real officer, which put him in the chain of command, but no real >prospects for advancement, nor really wanting any. And perhaps this >officer *used* Kragar (and his extreme sneakitude) in ways that >Dragons would frown upon - that is, in sabotaging *fellow* officers, >perhaps by intercepting intelligence and presenting it as being his >(or her, Dragaerans being equal-opportunity) own, or messing with them >in other petty ways to gya's own advancement, all-in-all being conduct >unbecoming to an officer. And perhaps this officer gets gyaself >killed in battle, so Kragar's problems with being in command are >brought to the fore as he has to handle things himself. Hmm. We >might even posit that the officer was discovered, and the sabotage >*was* considered as being over the line of treason, and the officer >was executed. > >So, ordinarily, just being "not-listenable" wouldn't have gotten >Kragar kicked out, but combine that with his role in the sabotage >being discovered... Perhaps Kragar was only spared death since he was >obeying orders, but "should have known" that he should not have obeyed >such orders. > >Perhaps there actually is some sort of clause or basis for ejection >from the House for conduct unbecoming to a Dragon. > >Hmm. Maybe. Although that doesn't explain the sneakitude itself. >Unless... Unless perhaps the officer posited was responsible for that >as well - perhaps a sorcerer or psychic specializing in creating >stealth illusions? And that explains Kragar's friendship with Daymar; >no one was able to figure out how to undo the "stealth mode" besides >the original officer, and Kragar became more and more desperate to >find someone or something that would undo it (and obviously, failing, >even with Daymar)? > >Shrug. Perhaps I ought to add that to Speculation:Kragar as well... -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 09:16:28 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:16:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> Message-ID: <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > You know, Kragar, as I remember, done TOLE Vlad why he was a Jhereg, > not a Dragon, and it didn't involve a single instance of the word > "perhaps". > ...which conveniently ignores the fact that Vlad on several occasions later begins to suspect that Kragar might be lying (or at least not giving him the whole story), and that Vlad says as much to the reader. Who's more reliable? Or perhaps a better way to put it would be, "Who's more un-reliable?" Personally, I don't trust Vlad any more than I trust Kragar. And that line about how Kragar knows what Eastern Kingdom Vlad is from because he "wouldn't go to work for you without knowing something about you..." I find it highly unlikely that Vlad wouldn't have probed into Kragar's past in the same way--translation: Vlad knows perfectly well what the deal is with Kragar, but just hasn't chosen to share that information with the silver box he talks to (i.e the reader). So, poor us, left to speculate on what the truth might be, until Steve finds some "cool" explanation that he likes, prints it, and spoils our discussion. (But luckily, such explanation will likely raise more questions than it answers, so it's all good. ;-) ) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 09:34:32 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:34:32 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43A99228.6050400@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Well... > >Actually, I did just now think of another scenario. Let's say that >Kragar was at a rank that he was comfortable with, as an aide to some >real officer, which put him in the chain of command, but no real >prospects for advancement, nor really wanting any. And perhaps this >officer *used* Kragar (and his extreme sneakitude) in ways that >Dragons would frown upon - that is, in sabotaging *fellow* officers, >perhaps by intercepting intelligence and presenting it as being his >(or her, Dragaerans being equal-opportunity) own, or messing with them >in other petty ways to gya's own advancement, all-in-all being conduct >unbecoming to an officer. And perhaps this officer gets gyaself >killed in battle, so Kragar's problems with being in command are >brought to the fore as he has to handle things himself. Hmm. We >might even posit that the officer was discovered, and the sabotage >*was* considered as being over the line of treason, and the officer >was executed. > >So, ordinarily, just being "not-listenable" wouldn't have gotten >Kragar kicked out, but combine that with his role in the sabotage >being discovered... Perhaps Kragar was only spared death since he was >obeying orders, but "should have known" that he should not have obeyed >such orders. > >Perhaps there actually is some sort of clause or basis for ejection >from the House for conduct unbecoming to a Dragon. > >Hmm. Maybe. Although that doesn't explain the sneakitude itself. >Unless... Unless perhaps the officer posited was responsible for that >as well - perhaps a sorcerer or psychic specializing in creating >stealth illusions? And that explains Kragar's friendship with Daymar; >no one was able to figure out how to undo the "stealth mode" besides >the original officer, and Kragar became more and more desperate to >find someone or something that would undo it (and obviously, failing, >even with Daymar)? > >Shrug. Perhaps I ought to add that to Speculation:Kragar as well... > > Looks like good stuff to me. I just think it's likely that house expulsion DOES happen for many reasons, and while being a cross-breed may be the most common reason, bad behavior can get you there, as well. Saying that "any behavior that should get you kicked out would just get you killed instead" smacks of living in a tyranny... Which the Empire is not (at least, not unless there's a decadent Phoenix (Or possibly a Jhereg) Emperor. ) And even under Tortaalik we have Illista and Allistar as examples of those who were exiled, rather than executed. (What ever happened to Allistar, BTW? TPG says he was exiled along with his sister, but Illista makes no mention of him later in LoCB or SL...) Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Wed Dec 21 11:25:59 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:25:59 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221114238.0256c5f0@cox.net> References: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221114238.0256c5f0@cox.net> Message-ID: <0F43AA2F-4122-4873-B4D6-51ADFCC93401@mac.com> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 04:45 AM 12/21/2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> On 12/20/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> > --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> >> >> However, I *think* (and SKZB may feel free to correct me) that at >> some >> convention or other event, Steve did actually say, in a *facetious* >> mode, that that (or something similar, like a turtle) is what >> tsalmoth >> are, and was misunderstood as being serious, and that is what the >> interview statement refers to. >> >> This post confirms that *someone* heard Steve directly (and did not >> get it from the interview, which was given in 2001, 7 years after >> this >> post (which is also more than a decade ago now, sheesh). I did not >> attend MOC (whatever that may be) [1], but perhaps someone else does >> recall hearing Steve say something like this? >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/ >> a4476d1ac4fe7b45?dmode=source > > Personally, I think that Steve was faced with a bunch of Draggies > (the Dragaeran equivalent of Trekkies), got sick and tired of > answering all the questions, and gave the most outrageous answer > for Tsalmoth that he could think of at the time. > > The Draggies being entirely without humor, of course, took every > word he said as absolute truth. > I dunno. sounds a little Teckla-ish to me...after all, what are we? Chopped kethna? Or pinkfish with butterchees? From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 14:35:34 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:35:34 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Ike Porter wrote: > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with it. > > Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a > > military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at > > the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means that > > whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made the > > mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group goes > > into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample > > opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his > > subordinates aren't paying attention to him. > > Brain slow today, hopefully this makes sense: > > What you say would certainly be valid if Kragar had been in the imperial > army, but I've always envisioned it happening with Kragar being a nobleman > collecting his surrounding forces in order to join in the larger army to > assault the guy over there who pissed off the local lord at the party last > night. But if the stakes are that low, that makes it far *less* likely that the penalty for just "not being noticable" would be House expulsion. Indeed, as a modification to my prior notion, it makes more sense if Kragar's notional superior is not just some random officer, but someone on the Dragon Council itself, and he was being used to gain information to manipulate the internal politics of the Dragon Council. Or alternatively, Kragar's notional superior was an Imperial official, and an (internal) Imperial scandal was just barely suppressed. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 14:49:04 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:49:04 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > You know, Kragar, as I remember, done TOLE Vlad why he was a Jhereg, > > not a Dragon, and it didn't involve a single instance of the word > > "perhaps". > > > ...which conveniently ignores the fact that Vlad on several occasions > later begins to suspect that Kragar might be lying (or at least not > giving him the whole story), and that Vlad says as much to the reader. > > Who's more reliable? Or perhaps a better way to put it would be, "Who's > more un-reliable?" More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB has portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be unreliable for one reason or another - outright and blatant lying; poor memory; lack of comprehension of some complicated situation; having a personal interest that they don't wish to disclose (or other hidden motivation); not being in the mood to discuss something in full detail; assuming a fact from erroneous observations; assuming that someone already knows the facts; generalizing from one example; or just making a mistake of major or minor proportions. And various combinations of those reasons, and probably other reasons as well, which I left off because I couldn't think of them right now. Thus, there's always room for speculation. Therefore, some of us speculate. From shawnb at stanford.edu Wed Dec 21 15:10:00 2005 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:10:00 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43a9e282.37ad930d.76c0.3bcfSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> > > More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB > has portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be > unreliable for one reason or another - outright and blatant > lying; poor memory; lack of comprehension of some complicated > situation; having a personal interest that they don't wish to > disclose (or other hidden motivation); not being in the mood > to discuss something in full detail; assuming a fact from > erroneous observations; assuming that someone already knows > the facts; generalizing from one example; or just making a > mistake of major or minor proportions. And various > combinations of those reasons, and probably other reasons as > well, which I left off because I couldn't think of them right now. > Is Khaavren unreliable? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 15:13:03 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:13:03 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB has >portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be unreliable for >one reason or another - outright and blatant lying; poor memory; lack > > While this is certainly true of the stories narrated by Vlad and Paarfi, I find it's less true for "Brokedown Palace". Miklos certainly seems to be pretty reliable, anyway. (The character telling the interludes is certainly more suspect, but he's telling obviously "tall tales", so it doesn't really count.) But then, BP is an enigma in the Dragaeraverse in many ways. >of comprehension of some complicated situation; having a personal >interest that they don't wish to disclose (or other hidden >motivation); not being in the mood to discuss something in full >detail; assuming a fact from erroneous observations; assuming that >someone already knows the facts; generalizing from one example; or >just making a mistake of major or minor proportions. And various >combinations of those reasons, and probably other reasons as well, >which I left off because I couldn't think of them right now. > >Thus, there's always room for speculation. Therefore, some of us speculate. > > Damn straight. Who needs a real life, anyway? ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 15:23:00 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:23:00 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <20051221231012.5F85FE942F@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20051221231012.5F85FE942F@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <43A9E3D4.5040800@comcast.net> Shawn Burns wrote: >Is Khaavren unreliable? > > > > Here's some of the examples of how Khaavren might be considered unreliable: * poor memory; forgetting about Garland (FHYA), and then Grita (VoA) * lack of comprehension of some complicated situation; Falling for Illista's deceptions, et al. * not being in the mood to discuss something in full detail; Not telling Pel about Piro's misison to Dzur mountain in PotD * assuming a fact from erroneous observations; Getting all uppity about Zerika's apparent snub of Morrolan at the start of SL * making a mistake of major or minor proportions; I could give countless examples of this one, mostly centered around Illista (TPG), Garland (FHYA), or Grita (VoA) And over and above all of this, the Khaavren stories are all being filtered through the brain of Paarfi, who himself has been shown to be quite unreliable for all of these reasons (and many more). Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 16:06:34 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:06:34 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB has > >portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be unreliable for > >one reason or another - outright and blatant lying; poor memory; lack > > > > > While this is certainly true of the stories narrated by Vlad and Paarfi, > I find it's less true for "Brokedown Palace". > > Miklos certainly seems to be pretty reliable, anyway. I think it is possible to argue that Miklos is good-hearted and honest, but nevertheless not entirely reliable, although not from malice (and I think he would be honest about his being unreliable). A strong hint in this direction is the bit about everyone hearing something different when Bolk speaks - emphasizing that different people have different biases and filters that alter understanding. And there's also that Miklos doesn't have all of the facts. I suspect that if he is indeed the narrator of BP, he is writing about some events which happened very differently from his descriptions. And regarding the folktales, by the way: "The land has changed; I have changed; the world has changed. All things become what they were not, and I am no different. I remember Fenarr, if that is what you mean; but my memory differs from the legends, and I am not certain that the legends are not more accurate." > > But then, BP is an enigma in the Dragaeraverse in many ways. > This is true. What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and squeak, anyway? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 16:21:41 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:21:41 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A9F195.7020103@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I think it is possible to argue that Miklos is good-hearted and >honest, but nevertheless not entirely reliable, although not from >malice (and I think he would be honest about his being unreliable). A >strong hint in this direction is the bit about everyone hearing >something different when Bolk speaks - emphasizing that different >people have different biases and filters that alter understanding. >And there's also that Miklos doesn't have all of the facts. I suspect >that if he is indeed the narrator of BP, he is writing about some >events which happened very differently from his descriptions. > > The "hearing different things" comes up again--quite compellingly--in Issola. I don't know if this is so much to show "unreliability" or not. I had assumed that this was one of those aspects of BP that came from it's initial life as political allegory... That different people will interpret the same events differently depending on their political perspective. (i.e. A Marxist and a Democrat and a Monarchist will all see things in a different light, and their understanding is limited by their perceptions.) I'm not quite sure what this would mean in the context of Verra's conversations in Issola, however. One might conclude, based on this, that Bolk is a god... (Based on Teldra's comments when this happens with Verra). I don't know if he's ever been considered such. >>But then, BP is an enigma in the Dragaeraverse in many ways. >> >> >> > >This is true. What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and >squeak, anyway? > > Is this perhaps an allusion on the sounds of the spoken Dragaean language? Might want to cross-reference this with Sethra's comments to Morrolan in LoCB about him "Swallowing his vowels" and "attacking his consonants". Majikjon From st.shafer at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 11:00:19 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:00:19 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> > > So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military > house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done > to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get > kicked out? > > Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked out of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they just demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got him booted from the house. From howard at brazee.net Thu Dec 22 11:41:16 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:41:16 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> Stephen Shafer wrote: >> >> So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military >> house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done >> to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get >> kicked out? >> >> Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked out >of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they just >demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of >battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got him >booted from the house. > > What is a demoted Dragon Lord? A Dragon Commoner? Have we met such? From st.shafer at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 12:04:02 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:04:02 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> Message-ID: <77369c850512221204i52f943bew182ab48520bcdc5a@mail.gmail.com> I meant demoted rank wise. We did meet Dragon soldiers of differing ranks. He proves horrible at giving orders and so is demoted back to a common Dragon of the line or something like that. From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Dec 22 13:35:12 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:35:12 -0500 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> On 21 Dec 2005 at 16:06, Davdi Silverrock wrote > > This is true. What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and > squeak, anyway? A Shakespeare reference? Hamlet I think, (the google hit seems to reference Hamlet - but I can't be sure without the actual text): "A little ere the mightiest Julius fell, The graves stood tenantless and the sheeted dead Did squeak and gibber in the Roman streets" from: http://stjohns-chs.org/english/hamlet- new/chapterthreedone/chapterthree.html MMichele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Dec 22 16:39:25 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:39:25 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> Message-ID: <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> For anyone who is interested, I've put together a little Fanfic site for Dragaera called "Terics Academy". It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I thought some of you might want to look it over. It's located at: http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html If you are so inclined, let me know what you think. That is all. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:22:28 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:22:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <77369c850512221204i52f943bew182ab48520bcdc5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> <77369c850512221204i52f943bew182ab48520bcdc5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Stephen Shafer wrote: > I meant demoted rank wise. We did meet Dragon soldiers of differing ranks. > He proves horrible at giving orders and so is demoted back to a common > Dragon of the line or something like that. Your words are full of wisdom, and are entirely in accord with my own reflections on the matter. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:41:54 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:41:54 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> Message-ID: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and > >squeak, anyway? On 12/21/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Is this perhaps an allusion on the sounds of the spoken Dragaean language? > On 12/22/05, Michele Riccio wrote: > > A Shakespeare reference? Hamlet I think, (the google hit seems to > reference Hamlet - but I can't be sure without the actual text): > Aha. Two interesting possibilities (and possibly both correct). From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 23:25:12 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:25:12 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > For anyone who is interested, I've put together a little Fanfic site for > Dragaera called "Terics Academy". > > It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I thought some of you > might want to look it over. > > It's located at: > > http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html > > If you are so inclined, let me know what you think. > I am most certainly not a military expert of any shade or color, but I could not help but make a few observations, which may or may not be of some use to the noble headmaster of the Academy: Observing the course listing, I note the following: 1) No specific listing for Basic Cartography (drafting and psiprints, with special attention paid to emphasizing tactical and strategic geographical features). 2) No specific listing for Combat Engineering. I suppose "Fortification Methods" & "Siege Deployment" might cover it, but I think the Vallista would emphasize laying in the foundation before building upon it, if I may borrow their maxim. 3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & Greenaere are potential enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might bring on the famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? 4) I think it might be useful to have courses, perhaps as electives, of "Integrating with non-human forces" and "Considerations in opposing non-human forces" (I don't know how much actual fighting is done with the Serioli nowadays, but Easterners are always an interesting tactical situation, especially considering different types of Easterner forces) (it might also be interesting to consider cat-centaurs, infantry AND cavalry - although that might be a purely theoretical scenario, since there appears to be some sort of nonaggression treaty). 5) "It Don't Matter" could probably be replaced by a more... informative class. Such as "Balancing Morale and Discipline", or "Effective Minor Sabotage Operations". 6) More basic "Combat Medicine" courses: "Basic First Aid", "What to do While Waiting for the Physicker", "Anatomy", "Triage", etc. 7) Perhaps something on Espionage and Intelligence Gathering and Analysis? Incidentally, have you heard of "The Defence of Duffer's Drift"? http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007007.html#007007 It occurs to me that Lieutenant Backsight Forethought might be a Tiassa, what with achieving tactical insight through revelatory dreams. From katt_jean at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 23 07:33:26 2005 From: katt_jean at sbcglobal.net (Katt Jean) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:33:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051223153326.21913.qmail@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Perhaps (for those less "web savvy" than the rest of us) a link at the bottom of the "explanation page" that takes you to the other areas of the site. Very well put together from first appearances =) Katt "I have a WAY? Is that better than having a plan?" --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/22/05, Jon Lincicum > wrote: > > For anyone who is interested, I've put together a > little Fanfic site for > > Dragaera called "Terics Academy". > > > > It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I > thought some of you > > might want to look it over. > > > > It's located at: > > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html > > > > If you are so inclined, let me know what you > think. > > > > I am most certainly not a military expert of any > shade or color, but I > could not help but make a few observations, which > may or may not be of > some use to the noble headmaster of the Academy: > > Observing the course listing, I note the following: > > 1) No specific listing for Basic Cartography > (drafting and psiprints, > with special attention paid to emphasizing tactical > and strategic > geographical features). > > 2) No specific listing for Combat Engineering. I > suppose > "Fortification Methods" & "Siege Deployment" might > cover it, but I > think the Vallista would emphasize laying in the > foundation before > building upon it, if I may borrow their maxim. > > 3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & > Greenaere are potential > enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might > bring on the > famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? > > 4) I think it might be useful to have courses, > perhaps as electives, > of "Integrating with non-human forces" and > "Considerations in opposing > non-human forces" (I don't know how much actual > fighting is done with > the Serioli nowadays, but Easterners are always an > interesting > tactical situation, especially considering different > types of > Easterner forces) > (it might also be interesting to consider > cat-centaurs, infantry AND > cavalry - although that might be a purely > theoretical scenario, since > there appears to be some sort of nonaggression > treaty). > > 5) "It Don't Matter" could probably be replaced by a > more... > informative class. Such as "Balancing Morale and > Discipline", or > "Effective Minor Sabotage Operations". > > 6) More basic "Combat Medicine" courses: "Basic > First Aid", "What to > do While Waiting for the Physicker", "Anatomy", > "Triage", etc. > > 7) Perhaps something on Espionage and Intelligence > Gathering and Analysis? > > > > Incidentally, have you heard of "The Defence of > Duffer's Drift"? > > > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007007.html#007007 > > It occurs to me that Lieutenant Backsight > Forethought might be a > Tiassa, what with achieving tactical insight through > revelatory > dreams. > > From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Dec 23 10:15:03 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:15:03 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: at the @@@@ >From: Davdi Silverrock >To: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Terics Academy >Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:25:12 -0800 > >On 12/22/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > For anyone who is interested, I've put together a little Fanfic site for > > Dragaera called "Terics Academy". > > > > It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I thought some of you > > might want to look it over. > > > > It's located at: > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html > > > > If you are so inclined, let me know what you think. > > > >I am most certainly not a military expert of any shade or color, but I >could not help but make a few observations, which may or may not be of >some use to the noble headmaster of the Academy: > >Observing the course listing, I note the following: > >1) No specific listing for Basic Cartography (drafting and psiprints, >with special attention paid to emphasizing tactical and strategic >geographical features). > >2) No specific listing for Combat Engineering. I suppose >"Fortification Methods" & "Siege Deployment" might cover it, but I >think the Vallista would emphasize laying in the foundation before >building upon it, if I may borrow their maxim. > >3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & Greenaere are potential >enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might bring on the >famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? @@@@@ Indeed, I nearly thought him to be Jaubry e'Stfan-Matrin James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >4) I think it might be useful to have courses, perhaps as electives, >of "Integrating with non-human forces" and "Considerations in opposing >non-human forces" (I don't know how much actual fighting is done with >the Serioli nowadays, but Easterners are always an interesting >tactical situation, especially considering different types of >Easterner forces) >(it might also be interesting to consider cat-centaurs, infantry AND >cavalry - although that might be a purely theoretical scenario, since >there appears to be some sort of nonaggression treaty). > >5) "It Don't Matter" could probably be replaced by a more... >informative class. Such as "Balancing Morale and Discipline", or >"Effective Minor Sabotage Operations". > >6) More basic "Combat Medicine" courses: "Basic First Aid", "What to >do While Waiting for the Physicker", "Anatomy", "Triage", etc. > >7) Perhaps something on Espionage and Intelligence Gathering and Analysis? > > > >Incidentally, have you heard of "The Defence of Duffer's Drift"? > > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007007.html#007007 > >It occurs to me that Lieutenant Backsight Forethought might be a >Tiassa, what with achieving tactical insight through revelatory >dreams. From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 10:31:38 2005 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:31:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: What Line of Dragon is Kragar? Message-ID: <20051223183138.20287.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> > > So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military > house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done > to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get > kicked out? > > Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked >out >of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they >just >demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of >battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got >him >booted from the house. I just recently re-read the Vlad books, and I kept trying to find out what Line Kragar came from. Does anybody know? My thoughts are that he was e'Kieron because of Aliera's knowledge and dislike of him. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 10:51:00 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:51:00 -0800 Subject: What Line of Dragon is Kragar? In-Reply-To: <20051223183138.20287.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051223183138.20287.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43AC4714.8030501@comcast.net> Scott Kreitzer wrote: >I just recently re-read the Vlad books, and I kept trying to find out what Line Kragar came from. Does anybody know? > > My thoughts are that he was e'Kieron because of Aliera's knowledge and dislike of him. > There's a line in one of the Paarfi books about how almost the entire Kieron line was wiped out in the Disaster. so this seems unlikely. (It would probably have made him Dragon Heir, in fact, in which case he probably wouldn't be where he is now.) I somehow doubt it's one of the "old" lines (e'Marish'Chala, e'Drien, e'Kieron). It's likely to be one of the more recent... e'Tenith, e'Terics, e'Mondaar, e'Baritt. (Something makes me doubt it's e'Baritt. What was it? Oh yeah, the book /Dragon/.) Of course, maybe he's an e'Lynsi'Kom? Ajon e'Lynsi'Kom, aka Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 11:47:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:47:01 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/23/05, James Griffin wrote: > > >From: Davdi Silverrock > > > >3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & Greenaere are potential > >enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might bring on the > >famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? > > Indeed, I nearly thought him to be Jaubry e'Stfan-Matrin > No, no, this is entirely confused! Despite being closely associated with Jaubry, the completely separate individual Stefan of Matrin is a *Hawk*, not a Dragon! And he therefore cannot possibly be the founder of a Dragon lineage. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Dec 23 12:31:03 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:31:03 -0500 Subject: What Line of Dragon is Kragar? Message-ID: <07C0762B.4DFECF70.00048EA6@aol.com> Scott Kreitzer writes: > I just recently re-read the Vlad books, and I kept trying to find > out what Line Kragar came from. Does anybody know? > > My thoughts are that he was e'Kieron because of Aliera's knowledge > and dislike of him. She wasn't around when he got kicked out. And Morrolan doesn't like him either. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 15:10:13 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:10:13 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >No, no, this is entirely confused! Despite being closely associated >with Jaubry, the completely separate individual Stefan of Matrin is a >*Hawk*, not a Dragon! And he therefore cannot possibly be the founder >of a Dragon lineage. > > Am I missing something here? Or do I even want to know? Majikjon From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 24 08:50:21 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:50:21 -0000 Subject: Seasons Greetings In-Reply-To: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051224165022.JOBW1068.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> Seasons Greetings to all And in the words of Dave Allen, May your god(ess) go with you. Cheers MArk From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 11:44:57 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 11:44:57 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> References: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/23/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >No, no, this is entirely confused! Despite being closely associated > >with Jaubry, the completely separate individual Stefan of Matrin is a > >*Hawk*, not a Dragon! And he therefore cannot possibly be the founder > >of a Dragon lineage. > > > > > Am I missing something here? Or do I even want to know? > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311113/ http://www.patrickobrian.com/ http://www.wwnorton.com/pob/pobfaq.htm http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/10531 And so on and so forth. Also, the following Captain's^W^W^W Author's Log extract - no longer available to easily point to, but nevertheless: [Begin Cite] Mon Oct 27th, 2003 3:21 PM A trying day, but, ultimately, a successful one. At two bells of the morning watch, in moderate SSW topgallent staysail breeze, the Linux box grounded in a moderate shoal on a lee shore, which turned out to be a dead hard drive complicated by a video card that was suffering from dry rot. To make matters worse, not half a glass later, Quar's car turned out to have a dead battery. With me needing to check email and Quar needing to get to school, there was the devil to pay and no pitch hot. Well, we cleared for action at once and sent the hands to breakfast, after which we signaled for AAA. Around six bells, we beat to quarters, dismasted the box, rebuilt her (a new copper bottom--with a decent trim she should do very well on a bowline) and floated her. AAA showed up, the car started, and when Quar got back from school I was able to send the copyedited manuscript of _Sethra Lavode_ off to Tor. By the time I was back, the software was up and running, and the only problem was getting the ISP connections right. I must say that officers and men behaved most handsomely--we found the gateway, rigged it, gave her a broadside, and boarded in the smoke. By four bells of the afternoon watch we were back on line, by which time the breeze had freshened to a moderate gale. I should be able to check my email before we make landfall. I should especially mention the efforts of Quar and Caliann who behaved in a most officer-like manner during the cutting out action; Doug, who handed the dog watch (so to speak); and Lee, who provided the necessary intelligence regarding Redhat Linux and saw to the arrangement of the hold. All in all, it was the completest thing. I have the Honor to Remain &c. [End Cite] From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Dec 25 10:16:02 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:16:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051225181602.65119.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nice! I will add it to the list of sites on Cracks & Shards, with an appropriate note about its purpose. >>>>> "A Note on Color: The color scheme of this site is based on the colors of the House of Dragon. These are black and silver, which may be a little hard on the eyes when reading stories for long periods. I would suggest copy-pasting the text from story pages into a text editor with a white background if you are sensitive to such things. If there is demand, I may even develop an "eye-friendly" version of the site. Please let me know if this is something you'd like to see." <<<<< I would. I would like to SEE the site. Imagine some of your would-be readers as having eyes no longer young and screens not as large as they would wish. Then remember that it is not just your (or my) imagination. If you will permit me to say so, my lord, it seems to me inhospitable to ask your guests to copy-paste each page of your site in order to read it, thus losing the enjoyment and guidance of all your formatting, not to mention the ability to click directly on a link. May I offer a suggestion? Black on silver (light-grey) would preserve the colors and be much easier to read, as can be seen in the parts of the page guide/header that are at full brightness (behind "Course Catalog", in my view). True, it reverses the BALANCE of the colors from what we see in Dragonlords' dress, but the identity of the House is still unmistakeable. We know the colors of twelve out of the sixteen Houses that presumably have them (the Yendi, of course, have no distinctive heraldic colors) (http://www.cracksandshards.com/characteristics.html), and no two of them are distinguished from each other only by order or prominence of the colors. mam / c&s __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 25 14:20:16 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (lincicum at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 22:20:16 +0000 Subject: Terics Academy Message-ID: <122520052220.2104.43AF1B2000083397000008382200737478039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Mark A. Mandel" > Nice! I will add it to the list of sites on Cracks & Shards, with an > appropriate note about its purpose. Many thanks. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to see. > > >>>>> > "A Note on Color: > > I would. I would like to SEE the site. Imagine some of your would-be > readers as having eyes no longer young and screens not as large as they > would wish. Then remember that it is not just your (or my) imagination. Well, that about tears it, I guess; I guess I'll have to make an appearance change. I do like the black background better, so maybe just an overall increase in font size throughout would do? Luckily, I had the foresight to do the coloration an font styling through external CSS so I should be able to remedy this complaint relatively quickly. > May I offer a suggestion? Black on silver (light-grey) would preserve the > colors and be much easier to read, as can be seen in the parts of the page > guide/header that are at full brightness (behind "Course Catalog", in my > view). True, it reverses the BALANCE of the colors from what we see in > Dragonlords' dress, but the identity of the House is still unmistakeable. I actually did a mockup of the site in this color format initially, to see if it would work better, but didn't care for it . Additionally, in the case of Dragons, I believe the balance IS an important consideration. Also, in traditional heraldry, metallic colors (Argent and Or) are more often used as background for the other colors, rather than the reverse, so there's a fair amount of tradition involved here. Of course, traditional heraldry never had to deal with making it look good in a browser window, either... But hey, if the size change doesn't do the trick, I've got the color shift as a fallback strategy. How's that for good tactics? ;-) Majikjon From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 26 18:34:10 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <122120050353.8027.43A8D1BD000078B700001F5B2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051227023410.14784.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah. What dictionary? I will check my sources. ... Lewis & Short have "localis" only as the adjectival form of "locus": that is, meaning 'local', just what it looks like (and is the etymon of). I don't know if L&S is on the Web. It's the Oxford Press classic; says here "Impression of 1966; first edition 1879." 2000pp or so, so I couldn't just reach over and grab it, I had to get out of my chair and get it with both hands. It's a hard life. I don't speak Latin, much -- I can if pushed to it -- but I did study it in h. s. and have stayed in touch with it all my life, so to speak, being a linguist (language scientist) by profession as well as avocation. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel (of Cracks and Shards) --- lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > > -------------- Original message > From: "Mark A. Mandel" > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali > > Bravo! Only it should be "Dramatis Loci". > > According to the online Latin-English dictionary I consulted, the > translations are as follows: > > Loci=Places > Locali=Locations > > Now, I don't speak Latin (who does?), and have only studied it > informally. Also, I don't know if there is an established convention for > lists of place names in literature; but it seems to me that either of > these would be valid. > > But I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice. > > Majikjon > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Dec 26 18:52:54 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:52:54 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051227023410.14784.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051227023410.14784.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B0AC86.80300@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Ah. What dictionary? I will check my sources. > >... > >Lewis & Short have "localis" only as the adjectival form of "locus": that >is, meaning 'local', just what it looks like (and is the etymon of). > >I don't know if L&S is on the Web. It's the Oxford Press classic; says >here "Impression of 1966; first edition 1879." 2000pp or so, so I couldn't >just reach over and grab it, I had to get out of my chair and get it with >both hands. It's a hard life. > >I don't speak Latin, much -- I can if pushed to it -- but I did study it >in h. s. and have stayed in touch with it all my life, so to speak, being >a linguist (language scientist) by profession as well as avocation. > >-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel (of Cracks and Shards) > > Hmm... Upon further review, the online dictionary I consulted actually lists the translation of Localis as "Local" (which I must have taken to mean "localle" when I was reading it earlier) but actually is indeed the adjective form of locus, just as you said. I will have to correct this in the wiki immediately. See? I told you I could be wrong. ;-) As a friend of mine used to say: "Simia Estorquia Clavis Bonum" Majikjon Oh, incidentally, I've dramatically increased the font size on the Terics Academy site, if you wanted to check it out. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 26 19:05:51 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:05:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would please put it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I have taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly credited of course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 26 19:20:16 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <122520052220.2104.43AF1B2000083397000008382200737478039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051227032016.35844.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As I type this, I am uploading the Cracks and Shards index page that adds the Terics Academy to the list of websites. Incidentally, you'll probably want to correct "ar[i]bitrary" to "arbitrary" in the 3rd paragraph of your About page. I fixed it in the quote I used. --- lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Mark A. Mandel" > > Nice! I will add it to the list of sites on Cracks & Shards, with an > > appropriate note about its purpose. > > Many thanks. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to see. > > "A Note on Color: > > > > I would. I would like to SEE the site. Imagine some of your would-be > > readers as having eyes no longer young and screens not as large as > they > > would wish. Then remember that it is not just your (or my) > imagination. > > Well, that about tears it, I guess; I guess I'll have to make an > appearance change. > > I do like the black background better, so maybe just an overall increase > in font size throughout would do? It's a lot easier to read this way. Thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 12:38:54 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:38:54 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/26/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would please put > it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I have > taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly credited of > course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 > I've been doing some more tsalmythological research, and I believe I have found some more useful posts in the mailing-list archives. The post marked with a "==>" has the most definitive statement we have on the topic (SKZB says: "However, I was not being entirely serious"). http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9362 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9375 ==> http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9493 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9552 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9709 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/12745 I have been unable to dig up information about the con that the original poster recalls hearing the statement at, however, it occurs to me that the poster may have misremembered the year, city name and/or state name. Searching on "mississippi brust" found, among other things, the following amusing interview, so it wasn't a total loss. http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html At some point, I shall update the Tsalmyth article with the intelligence I have discovered. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Dec 27 13:48:20 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:48:20 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63A56EDC-91CF-4DFC-8965-6111B3C875C7@mac.com> On Dec 27, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/26/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would >> please put >> it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I >> have >> taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly >> credited of >> course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 >> > > I've been doing some more tsalmythological research, and I believe I > have found some more useful posts in the mailing-list archives. The > post marked with a "==>" has the most definitive statement we have on > the topic (SKZB says: "However, I was not being entirely serious"). > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9362 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9375 > > ==> http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9493 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9552 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9709 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/12745 > > > I have been unable to dig up information about the con that the > original poster recalls hearing the statement at, however, it occurs > to me that the poster may have misremembered the year, city name > and/or state name. Searching on "mississippi brust" found, among > other things, the following amusing interview, so it wasn't a total > loss. > > http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html > > At some point, I shall update the Tsalmyth article with the > intelligence I have discovered. > listinfo/dragaera Thanks for the priceless interview. My favorite insight, one which would never have crossed my mind, is below: QM: If you had 20 millions dollars, would you spend it on a trip to the space station, or would you just waste it? SKZB: I would not waste it. I would make good, solid investments in drugs and hookers. As Vlad would never say, "Tag. You're it" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051227/62889d2f/attachment.html From kknolte at ecity.net Tue Dec 27 10:57:14 2005 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:57:14 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43B18E87.5A20@ecity.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > >> > >> So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military > >> house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done > >> to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get > >> kicked out? > >> > >> Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked out > >of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they just > >demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of > >battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got him > >booted from the house. > > > > > What is a demoted Dragon Lord? A Dragon Commoner? Have we met such? What is an improper Dragon act, anyway? I kinda had the impression that a *proper* Dragon fights to win [1], and the honor of the House is that they win wars. Espionage just isn't much fun to a Dragon, because if done properly no one knows that you've won, right? (IANA CIA agent, but I assume that's correct)? And breaking your word is a good way to get people to distrust you, which leads to them preferring an enemy to you when it comes to alliance - and Dragons have noticed that it's much easier to win with a bigger army. Similarly, Dragons want to be Warlords because that's the best way to show that you can win wars publically. The e'Lanyas were Dragon Heirs because the e'Lanyas were notoriously good tacticians (or at least that's the thing Sethra finds worthy of mention regarding e'Lanyas, rather than that e'Lanyas are notoriously *honorable*). And at least one Dragon was willing to enlist a Jhereg in his army, and not for his skill in charging the enemy head-on. Similarly, Kieron was willing to use Dolivar's scum to do the scouting, etc. OTOH, Kieron got killed for his fight to get the Jhereg into the Cycle [2] - don't remember if itwas stated that the Dragons did it, or some other tribe. [1] As opposed the Dzur, who apparently fight because they want to be heroes, and dying in a good cause is as good as winning it. [2] I think the Jhereg being part of the Cycle would be an argument against the theory that the Jenoine created the Cycle when they created the Houses. - Or, hm, have we ever heard anything about Serioli gods? KAren From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Dec 28 20:13:18 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:13:18 EST Subject: Terics Academy Message-ID: <19f.43052278.30e4bc5e@aol.com> In a message dated 12/23/2005 10:34:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, katt_jean at sbcglobal.net writes: Katt "I have a WAY? Is that better than having a plan?" Katt, do you have the DVD yet? The Offiical Visual Companion says "I have a way? Is that better than a plan?" From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 20:59:40 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:59:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -- Jon Lincicum wrote: > Personally, I don't trust Vlad any more than I trust Kragar. And that line about how Kragar knows what Eastern Kingdom Vlad is from because he "wouldn't go to work for you without knowing something about you..." I find it highly unlikely that Vlad wouldn't have probed into Kragar's past in the same way--translation: Vlad knows perfectly well what the deal is with Kragar, but just hasn't chosen to share that information with the silver box he talks to (i.e the reader). Not necessarily. I was thinking today about detective novel tropes. The hero(ine) has - the sidekick, - the friend on the force or elsewhere in power, - and various other people with special knowledge or abilities to call on. Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work that he DELEGATES to K. m a m / c&s __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 21:14:22 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:14:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060101051422.27554.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would please put it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I have taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly credited of course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 --- And now I see that "Majikjon" -- the founder of the Terics Academy -- has moved it to a "Meta" page, which is appropriate since it's discussion of the Tsalmoth OUTSIDE the universe of the stories (Doylist rather than Watsonian), and has added a whole lot of the information that has come up in this thread, organized very nicely. :-) mam/c&s -- and a very happy New Year to all! __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 18 14:06:28 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:06:28 -0800 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) *Buffy/Angel Spoilers* In-Reply-To: References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Louis Eastman wrote: > > > > > >Honking big Buffy and Angel spoilers. > > > > > > > >Seriously, if you don't want Buffy and Angel spoiled, skip this. > > > > > > > > >So in the Buffyverse, Angel is a vampire cursed with a soul - cursed in >that he is wracked with remorse for his earlier unlife of murder and >mayhem, and if he's ever happy again he'll lose his soul. He was sired >by a vampire named Darla, who is killed in Buffy but brought back as a >human by some evil lawyers with the goal of destroying Angel. After >various awful events, Darla is a vampire again, Angel is in despair >(D to A: "God doesn't want you, but I do."), and they have a fling >(risking Angel's soul due to the terms of the curse). Darla, to >everyone's shock, becomes pregnant. As a result of this, she gets >some share of the baby's human soul and, like Angel, is tormented by >guilt. Drama this, drama that, a vampire can't give birth, Darla kills >herself so the baby can be born. > Well, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that this ground has been covered by someone (despite many of my friends recommending it, I've yet to watch any real amount of Buffy) but it would appear that even in that universe, Vampires don't "have kids" that would make it really work for Vlad to be Sethra's son. And Aliera was a disembodied soul at the time, so she's out too. What living female characters are left to be Vlad's mom candidates? Ibronka? Roaana? The Sorceress in Green? StY? (Of course, these are all Dragaerans, and we don't really know if the crossbreeding thing is possible or not (see previous threads)). But if we can't count Dragaeran characters, we've got damn few Easterner females as candidates... Pretty much limited to some of the rabble-rousers from /Teckla/, or maybe some of the side-characters from /Brokedown Palace/.(Mariska, Maybe?) I suspect Vlad's Mom just hasn't appeared in the books at all. (Since it seems about 50/50 she's dead anyway). Majikjon From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Sun Dec 18 14:29:47 2005 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:29:47 -0600 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) *Buffy/Angel Spoilers* In-Reply-To: <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A5E2DB.9040204@comcast.net> I have always been sure in my own mind that Vlad's mother was mentioned in Brokedown Palace. Mia From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Dec 18 16:08:25 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:08:25 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation)*Buffy/Angel Spoilers* Message-ID: <3BC443F0.66186A51.00048EA6@aol.com> Mia McDavid writes: > I have always been sure in my own mind that Vlad's mother was > mentioned in Brokedown Palace. No, Brigitta is Cawti's mom. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Dec 19 04:36:31 2005 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:36:31 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A6A94F.6020105@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > > > >>I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've >>ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. >> >> > >The Buffyverse comments on this in typically heart-wrenching style. > > In Glen Cook's Garrett files, in the first case (=Sweet Silver Blues=) Garrett finds a nest of vampires containing the Bloodmaster, other males, vampire "brides" & children. The "brides" haven't completed changeover yet, but are infected, contagious, & bloodthirsty, not to mention light-sensitive. Pregnancy would be an expected part of life for them. Garrett opines that nothing would be able to bring a woman back from the Undead once she had given birth to a "soulless brat." Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 19 06:36:00 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 06:36:00 -0800 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sooo... Sethra is not *Vlad's* mother. Sethra was not Dolivar's lover. What if Sethra is *Dolivar's mother*? This might account for the feelings of affection for Vlad, the reason Sethra didn't "Hamstring the Yendi" Dolivar back in the early days, and would allow her to give a deep kiss to Vlad, since while she's not a genetic relation to him, she's still got some pretty serious attachment to the person that he is. The genetics for this also works out much better, although it might give Dolivar a "hint of Dzur" in the ancestry that was supposedly 100% Dragon. Majikjon From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 07:53:40 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:53:40 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Sooo... > >Sethra is not *Vlad's* mother. > >Sethra was not Dolivar's lover. > >What if Sethra is *Dolivar's mother*? > >This might account for the feelings of affection for Vlad, the reason >Sethra didn't "Hamstring the Yendi" Dolivar back in the early days, and >would allow her to give a deep kiss to Vlad, since while she's not a >genetic relation to him, she's still got some pretty serious attachment to >the person that he is. > >The genetics for this also works out much better, although it might give >Dolivar a "hint of Dzur" in the ancestry that was supposedly 100% Dragon. > > Not just 100% Dragon, but the most famous Dragon family: Dolivar and Kieron are brothers, making Kieron have a hint of Dzur. Not to mention the other sibling that eventually reincarnates as Aliera. I don't know. I think Sethra probably has had no children, being too occupied with raising the Empire instead. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 19 07:53:53 2005 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:53:53 -0700 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Maximilian Wilson" ; "Dragaera List" Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) > > > quashed) that Sethra was somehow once Dolivar's lover. But nobody lately > > > has speculated that Sethra might be somehow Vlad's mother! > > > > You mean Mellar's mother? I don't think she'd appreciate that. > > > > And what about the kiss that would have made Cawti jealous, "if she > > were the jealous type"? > > > > Max > > Can undead even have children? (Granted Sethra wasn't always undead, but she has been for hundreds of years prior to Vlad's birth.) > > I'm not a huge fan of Vampire stories in general, but I don't think I've ever heard one (Brust or otherwise) with a pregnant Vampire. (I haven't read Agyar yet, tho, so maybe someone knows more about this than I do.) > > Majikjon > Never read the "Blade" comic? Or seen the movies? Not much of a plot, but some of the fight scenes are fairly good, it helps when the actor actually knows what he is doing. From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 19 10:31:19 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:31:19 -0700 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> References: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> Jose Marquez wrote: >Not just 100% Dragon, but the most famous Dragon family: Dolivar and >Kieron are brothers, making Kieron have a hint of Dzur. Not to mention >the other sibling that eventually reincarnates as Aliera. I don't know. >I think Sethra probably has had no children, being too occupied with >raising the Empire instead. > >Jose > > > If a Dragon accepts the challenge to become a Dzur - are his children part Dzur as well? From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 11:54:35 2005 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:54:35 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> References: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43A70FFB.1090801@earthlink.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > Jose Marquez wrote: > >> Not just 100% Dragon, but the most famous Dragon family: Dolivar and >> Kieron are brothers, making Kieron have a hint of Dzur. Not to >> mention the other sibling that eventually reincarnates as Aliera. I >> don't know. I think Sethra probably has had no children, being too >> occupied with raising the Empire instead. >> >> Jose >> >> >> > If a Dragon accepts the challenge to become a Dzur - are his children > part Dzur as well? Why would any self-respecting Dragon want to become a Dzur? *grin* I'd imagine his children would have to be tested, prowess-wise, to be considered Dzur, assuming they are full-blood Dragon. But the pride of the House of the Dragon would suggest to me that if you are a Dragon and really really really want to be a Dzur, you're not really a Dragon (i.e., you'll leave the House or get kicked out). If you raise your children to want to be Dzur and they rebel by wanting to be Dragons, you might have a problem on your hands: there's no guarantee that the offspring of a disavowed Dragon would be welcomed back into the House. We've discussed cross-House desire with regard to individuals from different Houses getting together romantically and even sexually; I wonder if there are any instances of an individual clearly of one House wanting to be in another, at least among the High Houses. Teckla wanting to be Dragons or Dzur is perfectly natural and understandable; I'm thinking more along the lines you suggest, of a Dragon wanting to be Dzur, or vice versa. It seems that your House identity is so ingrained that this would indeed be odd. This House identity was established genetically by the Jenoine (combining humans and animals) and reinforced by the Cycle (your genetic House increases in mystical ascendancy as your turn to reign approaches and decreases afterward) and the Gods (they hold the keys to reincarnation, so I imagine Dragaerans rarely leave their original Houses when reincarnated [generalizing from Aliera's example and to a lesser extent, Vlad's]). Jose, making it up as he goes along -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From howard at brazee.net Mon Dec 19 12:02:46 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:02:46 -0700 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A70FFB.1090801@earthlink.net> References: <43A6D784.5010200@earthlink.net> <43A6FC77.5060102@brazee.net> <43A70FFB.1090801@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A711E6.5020609@brazee.net> Jose Marquez wrote: >> If a Dragon accepts the challenge to become a Dzur - are his children >> part Dzur as well? > >Why would any self-respecting Dragon want to become a Dzur? *grin* > > As a bet. Maybe for revenge (we have seen that this is a valid reason to become a Dzur). Pride can get one into trouble. If he was forced to choose between one or the other, he would probably go through the gauntlet again or risk war or whatever to pick Dragon. But not necessarily - there are higher causes that he would be honor bound to accept. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Dec 19 12:44:15 2005 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:44:15 -0800 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <43A711E6.5020609@brazee.net> Message-ID: <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Wanting Sethra to be Vlad's mother or some similar relational situation between our lead protagonists strikes me to be analgous to wanting the two lead characters in a situation comedy to finally "get together" after several seasons of romantic and/or sexual tension. The problem is that "getting together" hardly ever adds anything to the show and nearly always heralds its upcoming death as it turns out that the "tension" was what made the show enjoyable. I don't see any mileage to be gained by having Vlad be related to or have relations with any of his Dragaeran acquaintances, particularly Sethra. Being the carrier of Dolivar's reincarnated soul is already close enough to the bone for such purposes. In light of _Orca_, it might be interesting for Vlad to have a "moment" when he remembers what it felt like to fantasize about "getting together" with Kiera as a teenager, (especially if he discussed this tidbit with Sethra) but given his strong feelings at that age about Dragaerans in general that might never have really happened either. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Dec 19 12:56:44 2005 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:56:44 -0800 Subject: The bain of Fandom: Wants vs Needs In-Reply-To: <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 12/19/2005 12:44 PM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) >Wanting Sethra to be Vlad's mother or some similar relational situation >between our lead protagonists strikes me to be analgous to wanting the two >lead characters in a situation comedy to finally "get together" after >several seasons of romantic and/or sexual tension. > >The problem is that "getting together" hardly ever adds anything to the show >and nearly always heralds its upcoming death as it turns out that the >"tension" was what made the show enjoyable. > >I don't see any mileage to be gained by having Vlad be related to or have >relations with any of his Dragaeran acquaintances, particularly Sethra. >Being the carrier of Dolivar's reincarnated soul is already close enough to >the bone for such purposes. I really couldn't agree more. One of the problems with fandom in general, and SF fans in particular is that what the fans of a series *think* they want to see, and what they actually *enjoy* seeing are often completely unrelated to one another. (This, I believe, has been the utter death of the Star Trek franchise--all too often the producers are asking themselves "What do the fans want to see?" instead of "What makes a good story?") As Aerich would say, "The question is wrong." Still, the point, as far as I understand it, of this discussion forum, is to speculate and ponder the "what-ifs" of the stories in ways that Steve (hopefully) will never feel inclined to answer. Most of what we talk about should *never* be published or repeated anywhere else. At the same time, you never know when a good idea or two will be able to spring forth from this huge pile of speculative bullcrap fertilizer. I dunno. That's just the way I see it. >In light of _Orca_, it might be interesting for Vlad to have a "moment" when >he remembers what it felt like to fantasize about "getting together" with >Kiera as a teenager, (especially if he discussed this tidbit with Sethra) >but given his strong feelings at that age about Dragaerans in general that >might never have really happened either. Interesting idea. I don't really know how likely it is that we will see any more stories from the "early years" of Vlad (up through Phoenix), since that area seems to be pretty well filled in by now. Maybe a separate story that runs concurently with one of the others? (Say, around the time of Yendi? or Dragon?) Still, this kind of thing could also come up in a flashback, I suppose. Majikjon From goannaman at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 13:24:49 2005 From: goannaman at gmail.com (Jay Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:24:49 -0500 Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) In-Reply-To: <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <43A711E6.5020609@brazee.net> <019601c604dc$fa0f22d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Scott Schultz wrote: > > In light of _Orca_, it might be interesting for Vlad to have a "moment" > when > he remembers what it felt like to fantasize about "getting together" with > Kiera as a teenager, (especially if he discussed this tidbit with Sethra) > but given his strong feelings at that age about Dragaerans in general that > might never have really happened either. Speaking of my remembrances of being a teenage boy, I doubt his hatred of the race in general would have kept him from fantasizing about a beautiful female... even if she happened to be a Dragaeran. From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Dec 19 09:12:52 2005 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:12:52 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: Message-ID: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: Each House has their own standards for behaviour > > and someone (like, oh, say, Kragar) may get booted from their House > > for violating those standards, and find the prospect of being a Jhereg > > preferable to being a Teckla. > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why > Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into > House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving > commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per > se). IIRC, when Vlad was killed in Yendi, he ended up giving a temporarily fatal lesson to one of his henchmen when he came back to the office, apparently because Kragar had let standards slip so badly while Vlad was dead but getting better that said henchman made a really obviously stupid mistake. That kind of "poor order giving", ie, a command ability to ruin his subordinate's knowledge of what the heck they're doing in only a few days is not good, from a military perspective, although possibly not from a civil one. Ie, it doesn't matter that Kragar is apparently a very good at making his boss look good (even to the point of disobeying in order to save said boss's ass - see the restaurant scene where Vlad would have been assassinated if Kragar hadn't disobeyed), since in a military situation, if the boss gets killed in battle the next guy in rank has to take over, with rather bad results if he can't do the job. Civil situations it doesn't matter quite so much. So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get kicked out? This assumes that the thing about Dragons wanting recognition for their ability (by being promoted to leading as many as they prove worthy of), is a strong trait, so that keeping a Dragon around to be useful, but carefully unpromoted to keep him out of the chain of command, leads to a very unhappy Dragon and a really nasty revenge on the ones who got promoted over him without being better at the job. Alternatively, if Kragar's possible ability to ruin an army's professionalism while in command led to a particularly humiliating and multiply-fatal-to-favorite-scions-of-important-families defeat, internal politics could lead to getting kicked out too. Karen Karen From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 16:35:31 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:35:31 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512172113k536e548av62e93a86833826d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0512172113k536e548av62e93a86833826d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/17/05, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > And as already suggested, how about *Paarfi of Roundwood* as the > > "Great and Powerful Oz"? He's certainly got the bluster for it. > > Sethra Lavode still works as the one behind the curtain. > > I like this one a lot. > > > > Kragar, Malestav, and Glowbug as the Lolipop Guild > > > > Hmph. Or perhaps Kelly and his revolutionaries as the Munchkins > > (Easterners are short, right?) > > Just as long as it's someone suitably menacing, with a bunch of pointy > things backing them up. "We are members of the Confectioner's Union 289 (x3). We welcome you to our collective action meeting!" (in somewhat menacing tones): "Are you a good worker... or a /scab/ worker?" > > Verra (or whoever plays Glinda): "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?" > > Vlad (shrugging): "I'm the second-best witch that I know of, and my > > grandfather isn't here at the moment." > > Heh. > I've thought of a better match for Glinda: Daymar. Or better yet, portmanteau the names: Glindaymar It fits, with the whole "*suprised look* but you didn't *ask*!" thing (that is, Glindaymar arrives after Vlad has found out that the Great and Terrible Paarfi might know how to send him home, and therefore hasn't heard him ask how to get home). From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 16:58:40 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:58:40 -0800 Subject: I've a feeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to clarify when I'm thinking this takes place: It's just after the events of /Phoenix/, before Vlad takes off from Adrilankha for good. He's in Castle Black, and he's wandered up the steps one last time of Morrolan's tower, the one which has no windows on the outside. He watches the shifting windows, and conceives of the idea that perhaps one of the worlds through the windows will have a place where he can hide out for a while. As the scene through the windows shift, he spots one in particular with bright blue skies, green fields, and other bright primary colors, contrasting strongly with the black stone of the tower room and everything in it. Vlad, focusing on the window and willing it to remain, begins to sing. Loiosh, naturally, makes snarky remarks to him that the whole thing will end in tears. VLAD, singing: Somewhere, through Verra's Window, way up high, There's a plane of existence that might be worth a try. /Boss, do you really think it's worth the risk?/ /I'm considering it, as I wax melancholy./ /Who is melancholy, and why have you never introduced her to me?/ /Shut up, Loiosh./ Somewhere, through Verra's Window, skies are blue, /If you want blue skies, we can always go out East!/ /Shut up, Loiosh. This here is a *bluer* blue. And, hey, maybe that *is* the East!/ And the dreams that you dare to dream really do come true. /Boss, you know you've had dreams that you really, really, don't want to come true./ /Right now, my dream is to not be assassinated with a weapon that will DESTROY MY SOUL!/ /Good enough. Point to you./ I think I'll dash off a quick note So Morrolan won't have a goat or fear for me. /Morrolan? Fear? You *are* referring to the Morrolan we know, yes?/ /Well, he might worry a *bit*./ (Vlad scribbles down the essence of what he's about to do on a piece of paper, and leaves it on the floor.) The Jhereg won't know what to do Nor know which window to go through They'll never find me. /Have you thought about how you're going to get *back*?/ /Uh... We'll work something out./ /Who's *we*?/ Somewhere, through Verra's Window, demons fly. They fly through Verra's Window, Why then -- oh, why can't I? /Because you don't have *wings*, you great big... human!/ /That's "fly" as in "move quickly" or "flee". And it's metaphorical anyway!/ If eldritch undead demons fly Through Verra's Window Why, oh, why can't I? /Because it would be a really, really bad idea?/ /Shut up, Loiosh. I'm feeling reckless!/ VLAD, with LOIOSH, LEAPS through (one of) Verra's Window('s) into a world that looks bright, shiny, happy, colorful, hectic and... Odd. Very, very Odd. V&L, together: /Oh, craaaaaaap!/ From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 14:29:34 2005 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra as Vlad's mother? (Was Yummy Vlad Speculation) Message-ID: <20051220222934.9265.qmail@web60121.mail.yahoo.com> Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? That would make Aliera his sister both biologically (except for difference in species) and spiritually, explaining why she puts up with/likes Vlad. Maybe if Verra has a child with a Dragaeran, then the child is Dragaeran. If she has a child with an Easterner, then the child is an Easterner. This could explain Vlad's father's dislike of Vlad learning witchcraft, because he may figure things out. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:33:51 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:33:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aplomb, and Courtesy: A Paarfian Anecdote In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0512070735x660650e5u280d3960f7f93c27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051221033351.3603.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 12/6/05, Philip Hart wrote: > > We were planning on having you go through the archives and repost > > everything with flags attached to get around that problem. > > Ah, but he wouldn't know what the flags *meant* until March either. > > ;) Oh, yes I would. Just because this thread subject starts with "A", and I'm selecting for "unread only, sorted by subject". > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. ... But be cheerful if it kills your enemies. mam/c&s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:41:33 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:41:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <78178A8A-D10D-41E9-A28E-846F5144F117@mac.com> Message-ID: <20051221034133.98422.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > On Nov 29, 2005, at 9:29 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>> On 11/28/05, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > >>> wrote: > >>> However, some animals on earth have their own name as a plural (i.e > > Moose, > >>> Fish, Orca) and since the house names are all based on animal names, > >>> self-pluralizing makes as much sense as any other approach. > > Here are some more examples from our world: > > > > bison, deer, sheep, swine I think this happens with names of herd animals. 'Wolves', 'lions', 'foxes', and names of other carnivores pluralize; names of primates do; 'sharks', 'rays'... I can't think of what distinguishes the pluralizing waterdwellers. mam/c&s/dw __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:44:39 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:44:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <438E4F80.4030701@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051221034439.8053.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon Lincicum wrote: > I really AM a Lyorn, aren't I? > > Incidentally, I recently added a new page to the wikicity all of you > might be interested in, it's a "Dramtis Locali" page, in the spirit of > the :"Dramatis Personae" page, only this one with place names (Bryan, > are you paying attention?). > > This particular pearl od wisdom can be found at: > > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali Bravo! Only it should be "Dramatis Loci". dr. whom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 19:54:03 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I'm not sure I agree. Well, we have our Internet equivalences of "equivalents" > > winking, but I loved it when I read my first Hiaasen book. I started > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. No, SKZB never did that. What he did say was something like this: "I don't want to give definite descriptions of everything before I need it, because then I'd be stuck with them. If I said, for instance, that a tsalmoth was a giant land snail that climbs trees and tries to capture its prey by dropping down on it, then I'd be stuck with that description forever." It was a purely hypothetical, contrary-to-fact example, which was then misremembered and spread as a false rumor by readers of wherever he said it. The exact quote is somewhere in the list archive. I found it at one point and posted it here earlier. If anyone can dig it up again, please do us all a favor by adding it to the wiki page "Tsalmoth (animal)", http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 mam/c&s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Dec 20 19:53:33 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (lincicum at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:53:33 +0000 Subject: Concerning Plurality Message-ID: <122120050353.8027.43A8D1BD000078B700001F5B2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Mark A. Mandel" > > This particular pearl of wisdom can be found at: > > > > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali > > Bravo! Only it should be "Dramatis Loci". According to the online Latin-English dictionary I consulted, the translations are as follows: Loci=Places Locali=Locations Now, I don't speak Latin (who does?), and have only studied it informally. Also, I don't know if there is an established convention for lists of place names in literature; but it seems to me that either of these would be valid. But I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:14:05 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:14:05 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, K Kuhn wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why > > Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into > > House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving > > commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per > > se). > > IIRC, when Vlad was killed in Yendi, he ended up giving a temporarily > fatal lesson to one of his henchmen when he came back to the office, > apparently because Kragar had let standards slip so badly while Vlad was > dead but getting better that said henchman made a really obviously > stupid mistake. That kind of "poor order giving", ie, a command ability > to ruin his subordinate's knowledge of what the heck they're doing in > only a few days is not good, from a military perspective, although > possibly not from a civil one. > > Ie, it doesn't matter that Kragar is apparently a very good at making > his boss look good (even to the point of disobeying in order to save > said boss's ass - see the restaurant scene where Vlad would have been > assassinated if Kragar hadn't disobeyed), since in a military situation, > if the boss gets killed in battle the next guy in rank has to take over, > with rather bad results if he can't do the job. Civil situations it > doesn't matter quite so much. So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so > dangerous to a primarily military house like the Dragons (given that > he's good enough at getting things done to be promoted, but absolutely > horrible at being in charge), that he'd get kicked out? I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with it. Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means that whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made the mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group goes into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his subordinates aren't paying attention to him. > This assumes that the thing about Dragons wanting recognition for their > ability (by being promoted to leading as many as they prove worthy of), > is a strong trait, so that keeping a Dragon around to be useful, but > carefully unpromoted to keep him out of the chain of command, leads to a > very unhappy Dragon and a really nasty revenge on the ones who got > promoted over him without being better at the job. Again, we've seen Dragons who were not in fact ambitious for higher command, so I see problems with that. > Alternatively, if Kragar's possible ability to ruin an army's > professionalism while in command led to a particularly humiliating and > multiply-fatal-to-favorite-scions-of-important-families defeat, internal > politics could lead to getting kicked out too. > Well... Actually, I did just now think of another scenario. Let's say that Kragar was at a rank that he was comfortable with, as an aide to some real officer, which put him in the chain of command, but no real prospects for advancement, nor really wanting any. And perhaps this officer *used* Kragar (and his extreme sneakitude) in ways that Dragons would frown upon - that is, in sabotaging *fellow* officers, perhaps by intercepting intelligence and presenting it as being his (or her, Dragaerans being equal-opportunity) own, or messing with them in other petty ways to gya's own advancement, all-in-all being conduct unbecoming to an officer. And perhaps this officer gets gyaself killed in battle, so Kragar's problems with being in command are brought to the fore as he has to handle things himself. Hmm. We might even posit that the officer was discovered, and the sabotage *was* considered as being over the line of treason, and the officer was executed. So, ordinarily, just being "not-listenable" wouldn't have gotten Kragar kicked out, but combine that with his role in the sabotage being discovered... Perhaps Kragar was only spared death since he was obeying orders, but "should have known" that he should not have obeyed such orders. Perhaps there actually is some sort of clause or basis for ejection from the House for conduct unbecoming to a Dragon. Hmm. Maybe. Although that doesn't explain the sneakitude itself. Unless... Unless perhaps the officer posited was responsible for that as well - perhaps a sorcerer or psychic specializing in creating stealth illusions? And that explains Kragar's friendship with Daymar; no one was able to figure out how to undo the "stealth mode" besides the original officer, and Kragar became more and more desperate to find someone or something that would undo it (and obviously, failing, even with Daymar)? Shrug. Perhaps I ought to add that to Speculation:Kragar as well... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 01:45:33 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:45:33 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. > > No, SKZB never did that. What he did say was something like this: "I don't > want to give definite descriptions of everything before I need it, because > then I'd be stuck with them. If I said, for instance, that a tsalmoth was > a giant land snail that climbs trees and tries to capture its prey by > dropping down on it, then I'd be stuck with that description forever." It > was a purely hypothetical, contrary-to-fact example, which was then > misremembered and spread as a false rumor by readers of wherever he said > it. I know what you're referring to (it's in an interview here): http://scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html However, I *think* (and SKZB may feel free to correct me) that at some convention or other event, Steve did actually say, in a *facetious* mode, that that (or something similar, like a turtle) is what tsalmoth are, and was misunderstood as being serious, and that is what the interview statement refers to. This post confirms that *someone* heard Steve directly (and did not get it from the interview, which was given in 2001, 7 years after this post (which is also more than a decade ago now, sheesh). I did not attend MOC (whatever that may be) [1], but perhaps someone else does recall hearing Steve say something like this? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/a4476d1ac4fe7b45?dmode=source __________________ [1] MOC appears to be an overloaded TLA - Google references both a "Mid-Ohio Con" and a "Magnum Opus Con". Sigh. Although since the Mid-Ohio one appears to be more of a comics event, perhaps "Magnum Opus Con" was indeed what was meant. From ike at manor.org Wed Dec 21 06:30:00 2005 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:30:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with it. > Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a > military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at > the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means that > whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made the > mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group goes > into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample > opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his > subordinates aren't paying attention to him. Brain slow today, hopefully this makes sense: What you say would certainly be valid if Kragar had been in the imperial army, but I've always envisioned it happening with Kragar being a nobleman collecting his surrounding forces in order to join in the larger army to assault the guy over there who pissed off the local lord at the party last night. From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Dec 21 08:45:46 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:45:46 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221114238.0256c5f0@cox.net> At 04:45 AM 12/21/2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 12/20/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > I think that sometimes it would help if he would drop the poker face, > > > once in a while, when confusion has in point of fact resulted rather > > > than amusement, and just say that he was joking. For example, there's > > > the whole "Tsalmoth are giant land snails (or turtles)" debacle. > > > > No, SKZB never did that. What he did say was something like this: "I don't > > want to give definite descriptions of everything before I need it, because > > then I'd be stuck with them. If I said, for instance, that a tsalmoth was > > a giant land snail that climbs trees and tries to capture its prey by > > dropping down on it, then I'd be stuck with that description forever." It > > was a purely hypothetical, contrary-to-fact example, which was then > > misremembered and spread as a false rumor by readers of wherever he said > > it. > >I know what you're referring to (it's in an interview here): > > http://scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html > >However, I *think* (and SKZB may feel free to correct me) that at some >convention or other event, Steve did actually say, in a *facetious* >mode, that that (or something similar, like a turtle) is what tsalmoth >are, and was misunderstood as being serious, and that is what the >interview statement refers to. > >This post confirms that *someone* heard Steve directly (and did not >get it from the interview, which was given in 2001, 7 years after this >post (which is also more than a decade ago now, sheesh). I did not >attend MOC (whatever that may be) [1], but perhaps someone else does >recall hearing Steve say something like this? > >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/a4476d1ac4fe7b45?dmode=source Personally, I think that Steve was faced with a bunch of Draggies (the Dragaeran equivalent of Trekkies), got sick and tired of answering all the questions, and gave the most outrageous answer for Tsalmoth that he could think of at the time. The Draggies being entirely without humor, of course, took every word he said as absolute truth. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Dec 21 08:51:26 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:51:26 -0500 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> You know, Kragar, as I remember, done TOLE Vlad why he was a Jhereg, not a Dragon, and it didn't involve a single instance of the word "perhaps". At 04:14 AM 12/21/2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 12/19/05, K Kuhn wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > I am inclined to doubt that there are such examples. If someone is a > > > full member of the House, then their genes should indicate that, and > > > they ought not be expelled - if their behavior violates civil norms, > > > then there ought to be civil punishments. It's hard to imagine > > > behavior that violates House norms, yet not civil norms. Which is why > > > Kragar being a crossbreed (or something else that doesn't fit into > > > House genetic norms) is far more likely than him "merely" giving > > > commands that no-one listened to (which isn't even incompetence, per > > > se). > > > > IIRC, when Vlad was killed in Yendi, he ended up giving a temporarily > > fatal lesson to one of his henchmen when he came back to the office, > > apparently because Kragar had let standards slip so badly while Vlad was > > dead but getting better that said henchman made a really obviously > > stupid mistake. That kind of "poor order giving", ie, a command ability > > to ruin his subordinate's knowledge of what the heck they're doing in > > only a few days is not good, from a military perspective, although > > possibly not from a civil one. > > > > Ie, it doesn't matter that Kragar is apparently a very good at making > > his boss look good (even to the point of disobeying in order to save > > said boss's ass - see the restaurant scene where Vlad would have been > > assassinated if Kragar hadn't disobeyed), since in a military situation, > > if the boss gets killed in battle the next guy in rank has to take over, > > with rather bad results if he can't do the job. Civil situations it > > doesn't matter quite so much. So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so > > dangerous to a primarily military house like the Dragons (given that > > he's good enough at getting things done to be promoted, but absolutely > > horrible at being in charge), that he'd get kicked out? > >I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with >it. Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a >military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at >the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means >that whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made >the mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group >goes into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample >opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his >subordinates aren't paying attention to him. > > > This assumes that the thing about Dragons wanting recognition for their > > ability (by being promoted to leading as many as they prove worthy of), > > is a strong trait, so that keeping a Dragon around to be useful, but > > carefully unpromoted to keep him out of the chain of command, leads to a > > very unhappy Dragon and a really nasty revenge on the ones who got > > promoted over him without being better at the job. > >Again, we've seen Dragons who were not in fact ambitious for higher >command, so I see problems with that. > > > Alternatively, if Kragar's possible ability to ruin an army's > > professionalism while in command led to a particularly humiliating and > > multiply-fatal-to-favorite-scions-of-important-families defeat, internal > > politics could lead to getting kicked out too. > > > >Well... > >Actually, I did just now think of another scenario. Let's say that >Kragar was at a rank that he was comfortable with, as an aide to some >real officer, which put him in the chain of command, but no real >prospects for advancement, nor really wanting any. And perhaps this >officer *used* Kragar (and his extreme sneakitude) in ways that >Dragons would frown upon - that is, in sabotaging *fellow* officers, >perhaps by intercepting intelligence and presenting it as being his >(or her, Dragaerans being equal-opportunity) own, or messing with them >in other petty ways to gya's own advancement, all-in-all being conduct >unbecoming to an officer. And perhaps this officer gets gyaself >killed in battle, so Kragar's problems with being in command are >brought to the fore as he has to handle things himself. Hmm. We >might even posit that the officer was discovered, and the sabotage >*was* considered as being over the line of treason, and the officer >was executed. > >So, ordinarily, just being "not-listenable" wouldn't have gotten >Kragar kicked out, but combine that with his role in the sabotage >being discovered... Perhaps Kragar was only spared death since he was >obeying orders, but "should have known" that he should not have obeyed >such orders. > >Perhaps there actually is some sort of clause or basis for ejection >from the House for conduct unbecoming to a Dragon. > >Hmm. Maybe. Although that doesn't explain the sneakitude itself. >Unless... Unless perhaps the officer posited was responsible for that >as well - perhaps a sorcerer or psychic specializing in creating >stealth illusions? And that explains Kragar's friendship with Daymar; >no one was able to figure out how to undo the "stealth mode" besides >the original officer, and Kragar became more and more desperate to >find someone or something that would undo it (and obviously, failing, >even with Daymar)? > >Shrug. Perhaps I ought to add that to Speculation:Kragar as well... -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 09:16:28 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:16:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> Message-ID: <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > You know, Kragar, as I remember, done TOLE Vlad why he was a Jhereg, > not a Dragon, and it didn't involve a single instance of the word > "perhaps". > ...which conveniently ignores the fact that Vlad on several occasions later begins to suspect that Kragar might be lying (or at least not giving him the whole story), and that Vlad says as much to the reader. Who's more reliable? Or perhaps a better way to put it would be, "Who's more un-reliable?" Personally, I don't trust Vlad any more than I trust Kragar. And that line about how Kragar knows what Eastern Kingdom Vlad is from because he "wouldn't go to work for you without knowing something about you..." I find it highly unlikely that Vlad wouldn't have probed into Kragar's past in the same way--translation: Vlad knows perfectly well what the deal is with Kragar, but just hasn't chosen to share that information with the silver box he talks to (i.e the reader). So, poor us, left to speculate on what the truth might be, until Steve finds some "cool" explanation that he likes, prints it, and spoils our discussion. (But luckily, such explanation will likely raise more questions than it answers, so it's all good. ;-) ) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 09:34:32 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:34:32 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43A99228.6050400@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Well... > >Actually, I did just now think of another scenario. Let's say that >Kragar was at a rank that he was comfortable with, as an aide to some >real officer, which put him in the chain of command, but no real >prospects for advancement, nor really wanting any. And perhaps this >officer *used* Kragar (and his extreme sneakitude) in ways that >Dragons would frown upon - that is, in sabotaging *fellow* officers, >perhaps by intercepting intelligence and presenting it as being his >(or her, Dragaerans being equal-opportunity) own, or messing with them >in other petty ways to gya's own advancement, all-in-all being conduct >unbecoming to an officer. And perhaps this officer gets gyaself >killed in battle, so Kragar's problems with being in command are >brought to the fore as he has to handle things himself. Hmm. We >might even posit that the officer was discovered, and the sabotage >*was* considered as being over the line of treason, and the officer >was executed. > >So, ordinarily, just being "not-listenable" wouldn't have gotten >Kragar kicked out, but combine that with his role in the sabotage >being discovered... Perhaps Kragar was only spared death since he was >obeying orders, but "should have known" that he should not have obeyed >such orders. > >Perhaps there actually is some sort of clause or basis for ejection >from the House for conduct unbecoming to a Dragon. > >Hmm. Maybe. Although that doesn't explain the sneakitude itself. >Unless... Unless perhaps the officer posited was responsible for that >as well - perhaps a sorcerer or psychic specializing in creating >stealth illusions? And that explains Kragar's friendship with Daymar; >no one was able to figure out how to undo the "stealth mode" besides >the original officer, and Kragar became more and more desperate to >find someone or something that would undo it (and obviously, failing, >even with Daymar)? > >Shrug. Perhaps I ought to add that to Speculation:Kragar as well... > > Looks like good stuff to me. I just think it's likely that house expulsion DOES happen for many reasons, and while being a cross-breed may be the most common reason, bad behavior can get you there, as well. Saying that "any behavior that should get you kicked out would just get you killed instead" smacks of living in a tyranny... Which the Empire is not (at least, not unless there's a decadent Phoenix (Or possibly a Jhereg) Emperor. ) And even under Tortaalik we have Illista and Allistar as examples of those who were exiled, rather than executed. (What ever happened to Allistar, BTW? TPG says he was exiled along with his sister, but Illista makes no mention of him later in LoCB or SL...) Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Wed Dec 21 11:25:59 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:25:59 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051221114238.0256c5f0@cox.net> References: <20051221035403.11377.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221114238.0256c5f0@cox.net> Message-ID: <0F43AA2F-4122-4873-B4D6-51ADFCC93401@mac.com> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 04:45 AM 12/21/2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> On 12/20/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> > --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> >> >> However, I *think* (and SKZB may feel free to correct me) that at >> some >> convention or other event, Steve did actually say, in a *facetious* >> mode, that that (or something similar, like a turtle) is what >> tsalmoth >> are, and was misunderstood as being serious, and that is what the >> interview statement refers to. >> >> This post confirms that *someone* heard Steve directly (and did not >> get it from the interview, which was given in 2001, 7 years after >> this >> post (which is also more than a decade ago now, sheesh). I did not >> attend MOC (whatever that may be) [1], but perhaps someone else does >> recall hearing Steve say something like this? >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/ >> a4476d1ac4fe7b45?dmode=source > > Personally, I think that Steve was faced with a bunch of Draggies > (the Dragaeran equivalent of Trekkies), got sick and tired of > answering all the questions, and gave the most outrageous answer > for Tsalmoth that he could think of at the time. > > The Draggies being entirely without humor, of course, took every > word he said as absolute truth. > I dunno. sounds a little Teckla-ish to me...after all, what are we? Chopped kethna? Or pinkfish with butterchees? From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 14:35:34 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:35:34 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Ike Porter wrote: > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I understand the point you're making, but I still see problems with it. > > Consider: promotions are gradual. Putting Kragar in charge of a > > military group large enough to make a difference in a battle, while at > > the same time being aware of his... peculiar unnoticibility, means that > > whoever was in charge of field assignments was the one who made the > > mistake, not Kragar himself. Also, consider this: Before a group goes > > into battle, they train and practice maneuvers. Again, ample > > opportunity to note that Kragar's group is Not Doing Well because his > > subordinates aren't paying attention to him. > > Brain slow today, hopefully this makes sense: > > What you say would certainly be valid if Kragar had been in the imperial > army, but I've always envisioned it happening with Kragar being a nobleman > collecting his surrounding forces in order to join in the larger army to > assault the guy over there who pissed off the local lord at the party last > night. But if the stakes are that low, that makes it far *less* likely that the penalty for just "not being noticable" would be House expulsion. Indeed, as a modification to my prior notion, it makes more sense if Kragar's notional superior is not just some random officer, but someone on the Dragon Council itself, and he was being used to gain information to manipulate the internal politics of the Dragon Council. Or alternatively, Kragar's notional superior was an Imperial official, and an (internal) Imperial scandal was just barely suppressed. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 14:49:04 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:49:04 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > You know, Kragar, as I remember, done TOLE Vlad why he was a Jhereg, > > not a Dragon, and it didn't involve a single instance of the word > > "perhaps". > > > ...which conveniently ignores the fact that Vlad on several occasions > later begins to suspect that Kragar might be lying (or at least not > giving him the whole story), and that Vlad says as much to the reader. > > Who's more reliable? Or perhaps a better way to put it would be, "Who's > more un-reliable?" More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB has portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be unreliable for one reason or another - outright and blatant lying; poor memory; lack of comprehension of some complicated situation; having a personal interest that they don't wish to disclose (or other hidden motivation); not being in the mood to discuss something in full detail; assuming a fact from erroneous observations; assuming that someone already knows the facts; generalizing from one example; or just making a mistake of major or minor proportions. And various combinations of those reasons, and probably other reasons as well, which I left off because I couldn't think of them right now. Thus, there's always room for speculation. Therefore, some of us speculate. From shawnb at stanford.edu Wed Dec 21 15:10:00 2005 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:10:00 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43a9e282.37ad930d.76c0.3bcfSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> > > More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB > has portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be > unreliable for one reason or another - outright and blatant > lying; poor memory; lack of comprehension of some complicated > situation; having a personal interest that they don't wish to > disclose (or other hidden motivation); not being in the mood > to discuss something in full detail; assuming a fact from > erroneous observations; assuming that someone already knows > the facts; generalizing from one example; or just making a > mistake of major or minor proportions. And various > combinations of those reasons, and probably other reasons as > well, which I left off because I couldn't think of them right now. > Is Khaavren unreliable? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 15:13:03 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:13:03 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB has >portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be unreliable for >one reason or another - outright and blatant lying; poor memory; lack > > While this is certainly true of the stories narrated by Vlad and Paarfi, I find it's less true for "Brokedown Palace". Miklos certainly seems to be pretty reliable, anyway. (The character telling the interludes is certainly more suspect, but he's telling obviously "tall tales", so it doesn't really count.) But then, BP is an enigma in the Dragaeraverse in many ways. >of comprehension of some complicated situation; having a personal >interest that they don't wish to disclose (or other hidden >motivation); not being in the mood to discuss something in full >detail; assuming a fact from erroneous observations; assuming that >someone already knows the facts; generalizing from one example; or >just making a mistake of major or minor proportions. And various >combinations of those reasons, and probably other reasons as well, >which I left off because I couldn't think of them right now. > >Thus, there's always room for speculation. Therefore, some of us speculate. > > Damn straight. Who needs a real life, anyway? ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 15:23:00 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:23:00 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <20051221231012.5F85FE942F@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20051221231012.5F85FE942F@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <43A9E3D4.5040800@comcast.net> Shawn Burns wrote: >Is Khaavren unreliable? > > > > Here's some of the examples of how Khaavren might be considered unreliable: * poor memory; forgetting about Garland (FHYA), and then Grita (VoA) * lack of comprehension of some complicated situation; Falling for Illista's deceptions, et al. * not being in the mood to discuss something in full detail; Not telling Pel about Piro's misison to Dzur mountain in PotD * assuming a fact from erroneous observations; Getting all uppity about Zerika's apparent snub of Morrolan at the start of SL * making a mistake of major or minor proportions; I could give countless examples of this one, mostly centered around Illista (TPG), Garland (FHYA), or Grita (VoA) And over and above all of this, the Khaavren stories are all being filtered through the brain of Paarfi, who himself has been shown to be quite unreliable for all of these reasons (and many more). Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 16:06:34 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:06:34 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >More to the point, *every* *single* major character that SKZB has > >portrayed in the Dragaera stories has been shown to be unreliable for > >one reason or another - outright and blatant lying; poor memory; lack > > > > > While this is certainly true of the stories narrated by Vlad and Paarfi, > I find it's less true for "Brokedown Palace". > > Miklos certainly seems to be pretty reliable, anyway. I think it is possible to argue that Miklos is good-hearted and honest, but nevertheless not entirely reliable, although not from malice (and I think he would be honest about his being unreliable). A strong hint in this direction is the bit about everyone hearing something different when Bolk speaks - emphasizing that different people have different biases and filters that alter understanding. And there's also that Miklos doesn't have all of the facts. I suspect that if he is indeed the narrator of BP, he is writing about some events which happened very differently from his descriptions. And regarding the folktales, by the way: "The land has changed; I have changed; the world has changed. All things become what they were not, and I am no different. I remember Fenarr, if that is what you mean; but my memory differs from the legends, and I am not certain that the legends are not more accurate." > > But then, BP is an enigma in the Dragaeraverse in many ways. > This is true. What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and squeak, anyway? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Dec 21 16:21:41 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:21:41 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051221115022.0255b9c0@cox.net> <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43A9F195.7020103@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I think it is possible to argue that Miklos is good-hearted and >honest, but nevertheless not entirely reliable, although not from >malice (and I think he would be honest about his being unreliable). A >strong hint in this direction is the bit about everyone hearing >something different when Bolk speaks - emphasizing that different >people have different biases and filters that alter understanding. >And there's also that Miklos doesn't have all of the facts. I suspect >that if he is indeed the narrator of BP, he is writing about some >events which happened very differently from his descriptions. > > The "hearing different things" comes up again--quite compellingly--in Issola. I don't know if this is so much to show "unreliability" or not. I had assumed that this was one of those aspects of BP that came from it's initial life as political allegory... That different people will interpret the same events differently depending on their political perspective. (i.e. A Marxist and a Democrat and a Monarchist will all see things in a different light, and their understanding is limited by their perceptions.) I'm not quite sure what this would mean in the context of Verra's conversations in Issola, however. One might conclude, based on this, that Bolk is a god... (Based on Teldra's comments when this happens with Verra). I don't know if he's ever been considered such. >>But then, BP is an enigma in the Dragaeraverse in many ways. >> >> >> > >This is true. What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and >squeak, anyway? > > Is this perhaps an allusion on the sounds of the spoken Dragaean language? Might want to cross-reference this with Sethra's comments to Morrolan in LoCB about him "Swallowing his vowels" and "attacking his consonants". Majikjon From st.shafer at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 11:00:19 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:00:19 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> Message-ID: <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> > > So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military > house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done > to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get > kicked out? > > Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked out of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they just demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got him booted from the house. From howard at brazee.net Thu Dec 22 11:41:16 2005 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:41:16 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> Stephen Shafer wrote: >> >> So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military >> house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done >> to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get >> kicked out? >> >> Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked out >of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they just >demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of >battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got him >booted from the house. > > What is a demoted Dragon Lord? A Dragon Commoner? Have we met such? From st.shafer at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 12:04:02 2005 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:04:02 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> Message-ID: <77369c850512221204i52f943bew182ab48520bcdc5a@mail.gmail.com> I meant demoted rank wise. We did meet Dragon soldiers of differing ranks. He proves horrible at giving orders and so is demoted back to a common Dragon of the line or something like that. From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Dec 22 13:35:12 2005 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:35:12 -0500 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> On 21 Dec 2005 at 16:06, Davdi Silverrock wrote > > This is true. What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and > squeak, anyway? A Shakespeare reference? Hamlet I think, (the google hit seems to reference Hamlet - but I can't be sure without the actual text): "A little ere the mightiest Julius fell, The graves stood tenantless and the sheeted dead Did squeak and gibber in the Roman streets" from: http://stjohns-chs.org/english/hamlet- new/chapterthreedone/chapterthree.html MMichele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Dec 22 16:39:25 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:39:25 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> Message-ID: <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> For anyone who is interested, I've put together a little Fanfic site for Dragaera called "Terics Academy". It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I thought some of you might want to look it over. It's located at: http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html If you are so inclined, let me know what you think. That is all. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:22:28 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:22:28 -0800 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <77369c850512221204i52f943bew182ab48520bcdc5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> <77369c850512221204i52f943bew182ab48520bcdc5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Stephen Shafer wrote: > I meant demoted rank wise. We did meet Dragon soldiers of differing ranks. > He proves horrible at giving orders and so is demoted back to a common > Dragon of the line or something like that. Your words are full of wisdom, and are entirely in accord with my own reflections on the matter. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:41:54 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:41:54 -0800 Subject: Unreliable Narrators *Involves Discussion of BP* In-Reply-To: <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> Message-ID: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >What the hell is up with the demons that gibber and > >squeak, anyway? On 12/21/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Is this perhaps an allusion on the sounds of the spoken Dragaean language? > On 12/22/05, Michele Riccio wrote: > > A Shakespeare reference? Hamlet I think, (the google hit seems to > reference Hamlet - but I can't be sure without the actual text): > Aha. Two interesting possibilities (and possibly both correct). From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 23:25:12 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:25:12 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> References: <43A9E17F.50600@comcast.net> <43AAD5C0.115.1742C9C@localhost> <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > For anyone who is interested, I've put together a little Fanfic site for > Dragaera called "Terics Academy". > > It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I thought some of you > might want to look it over. > > It's located at: > > http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html > > If you are so inclined, let me know what you think. > I am most certainly not a military expert of any shade or color, but I could not help but make a few observations, which may or may not be of some use to the noble headmaster of the Academy: Observing the course listing, I note the following: 1) No specific listing for Basic Cartography (drafting and psiprints, with special attention paid to emphasizing tactical and strategic geographical features). 2) No specific listing for Combat Engineering. I suppose "Fortification Methods" & "Siege Deployment" might cover it, but I think the Vallista would emphasize laying in the foundation before building upon it, if I may borrow their maxim. 3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & Greenaere are potential enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might bring on the famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? 4) I think it might be useful to have courses, perhaps as electives, of "Integrating with non-human forces" and "Considerations in opposing non-human forces" (I don't know how much actual fighting is done with the Serioli nowadays, but Easterners are always an interesting tactical situation, especially considering different types of Easterner forces) (it might also be interesting to consider cat-centaurs, infantry AND cavalry - although that might be a purely theoretical scenario, since there appears to be some sort of nonaggression treaty). 5) "It Don't Matter" could probably be replaced by a more... informative class. Such as "Balancing Morale and Discipline", or "Effective Minor Sabotage Operations". 6) More basic "Combat Medicine" courses: "Basic First Aid", "What to do While Waiting for the Physicker", "Anatomy", "Triage", etc. 7) Perhaps something on Espionage and Intelligence Gathering and Analysis? Incidentally, have you heard of "The Defence of Duffer's Drift"? http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007007.html#007007 It occurs to me that Lieutenant Backsight Forethought might be a Tiassa, what with achieving tactical insight through revelatory dreams. From katt_jean at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 23 07:33:26 2005 From: katt_jean at sbcglobal.net (Katt Jean) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:33:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051223153326.21913.qmail@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Perhaps (for those less "web savvy" than the rest of us) a link at the bottom of the "explanation page" that takes you to the other areas of the site. Very well put together from first appearances =) Katt "I have a WAY? Is that better than having a plan?" --- Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/22/05, Jon Lincicum > wrote: > > For anyone who is interested, I've put together a > little Fanfic site for > > Dragaera called "Terics Academy". > > > > It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I > thought some of you > > might want to look it over. > > > > It's located at: > > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html > > > > If you are so inclined, let me know what you > think. > > > > I am most certainly not a military expert of any > shade or color, but I > could not help but make a few observations, which > may or may not be of > some use to the noble headmaster of the Academy: > > Observing the course listing, I note the following: > > 1) No specific listing for Basic Cartography > (drafting and psiprints, > with special attention paid to emphasizing tactical > and strategic > geographical features). > > 2) No specific listing for Combat Engineering. I > suppose > "Fortification Methods" & "Siege Deployment" might > cover it, but I > think the Vallista would emphasize laying in the > foundation before > building upon it, if I may borrow their maxim. > > 3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & > Greenaere are potential > enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might > bring on the > famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? > > 4) I think it might be useful to have courses, > perhaps as electives, > of "Integrating with non-human forces" and > "Considerations in opposing > non-human forces" (I don't know how much actual > fighting is done with > the Serioli nowadays, but Easterners are always an > interesting > tactical situation, especially considering different > types of > Easterner forces) > (it might also be interesting to consider > cat-centaurs, infantry AND > cavalry - although that might be a purely > theoretical scenario, since > there appears to be some sort of nonaggression > treaty). > > 5) "It Don't Matter" could probably be replaced by a > more... > informative class. Such as "Balancing Morale and > Discipline", or > "Effective Minor Sabotage Operations". > > 6) More basic "Combat Medicine" courses: "Basic > First Aid", "What to > do While Waiting for the Physicker", "Anatomy", > "Triage", etc. > > 7) Perhaps something on Espionage and Intelligence > Gathering and Analysis? > > > > Incidentally, have you heard of "The Defence of > Duffer's Drift"? > > > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007007.html#007007 > > It occurs to me that Lieutenant Backsight > Forethought might be a > Tiassa, what with achieving tactical insight through > revelatory > dreams. > > From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Dec 23 10:15:03 2005 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:15:03 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: at the @@@@ >From: Davdi Silverrock >To: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Terics Academy >Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:25:12 -0800 > >On 12/22/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > For anyone who is interested, I've put together a little Fanfic site for > > Dragaera called "Terics Academy". > > > > It's mostly done for personal gratification, but I thought some of you > > might want to look it over. > > > > It's located at: > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~lincicum/Terics_Academy/index.html > > > > If you are so inclined, let me know what you think. > > > >I am most certainly not a military expert of any shade or color, but I >could not help but make a few observations, which may or may not be of >some use to the noble headmaster of the Academy: > >Observing the course listing, I note the following: > >1) No specific listing for Basic Cartography (drafting and psiprints, >with special attention paid to emphasizing tactical and strategic >geographical features). > >2) No specific listing for Combat Engineering. I suppose >"Fortification Methods" & "Siege Deployment" might cover it, but I >think the Vallista would emphasize laying in the foundation before >building upon it, if I may borrow their maxim. > >3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & Greenaere are potential >enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might bring on the >famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? @@@@@ Indeed, I nearly thought him to be Jaubry e'Stfan-Matrin James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >4) I think it might be useful to have courses, perhaps as electives, >of "Integrating with non-human forces" and "Considerations in opposing >non-human forces" (I don't know how much actual fighting is done with >the Serioli nowadays, but Easterners are always an interesting >tactical situation, especially considering different types of >Easterner forces) >(it might also be interesting to consider cat-centaurs, infantry AND >cavalry - although that might be a purely theoretical scenario, since >there appears to be some sort of nonaggression treaty). > >5) "It Don't Matter" could probably be replaced by a more... >informative class. Such as "Balancing Morale and Discipline", or >"Effective Minor Sabotage Operations". > >6) More basic "Combat Medicine" courses: "Basic First Aid", "What to >do While Waiting for the Physicker", "Anatomy", "Triage", etc. > >7) Perhaps something on Espionage and Intelligence Gathering and Analysis? > > > >Incidentally, have you heard of "The Defence of Duffer's Drift"? > > http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007007.html#007007 > >It occurs to me that Lieutenant Backsight Forethought might be a >Tiassa, what with achieving tactical insight through revelatory >dreams. From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Fri Dec 23 10:31:38 2005 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:31:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: What Line of Dragon is Kragar? Message-ID: <20051223183138.20287.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> > > So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military > house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done > to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get > kicked out? > > Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked >out >of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they >just >demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of >battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got >him >booted from the house. I just recently re-read the Vlad books, and I kept trying to find out what Line Kragar came from. Does anybody know? My thoughts are that he was e'Kieron because of Aliera's knowledge and dislike of him. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 10:51:00 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:51:00 -0800 Subject: What Line of Dragon is Kragar? In-Reply-To: <20051223183138.20287.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051223183138.20287.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43AC4714.8030501@comcast.net> Scott Kreitzer wrote: >I just recently re-read the Vlad books, and I kept trying to find out what Line Kragar came from. Does anybody know? > > My thoughts are that he was e'Kieron because of Aliera's knowledge and dislike of him. > There's a line in one of the Paarfi books about how almost the entire Kieron line was wiped out in the Disaster. so this seems unlikely. (It would probably have made him Dragon Heir, in fact, in which case he probably wouldn't be where he is now.) I somehow doubt it's one of the "old" lines (e'Marish'Chala, e'Drien, e'Kieron). It's likely to be one of the more recent... e'Tenith, e'Terics, e'Mondaar, e'Baritt. (Something makes me doubt it's e'Baritt. What was it? Oh yeah, the book /Dragon/.) Of course, maybe he's an e'Lynsi'Kom? Ajon e'Lynsi'Kom, aka Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 11:47:01 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:47:01 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/23/05, James Griffin wrote: > > >From: Davdi Silverrock > > > >3) No Naval Tactics! Given that Elde Island & Greenaere are potential > >enemies, this is a serious flaw. Perhaps you might bring on the > >famous Jaubry e'Marish'Chala to teach a few courses? > > Indeed, I nearly thought him to be Jaubry e'Stfan-Matrin > No, no, this is entirely confused! Despite being closely associated with Jaubry, the completely separate individual Stefan of Matrin is a *Hawk*, not a Dragon! And he therefore cannot possibly be the founder of a Dragon lineage. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Dec 23 12:31:03 2005 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:31:03 -0500 Subject: What Line of Dragon is Kragar? Message-ID: <07C0762B.4DFECF70.00048EA6@aol.com> Scott Kreitzer writes: > I just recently re-read the Vlad books, and I kept trying to find > out what Line Kragar came from. Does anybody know? > > My thoughts are that he was e'Kieron because of Aliera's knowledge > and dislike of him. She wasn't around when he got kicked out. And Morrolan doesn't like him either. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Dec 23 15:10:13 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:10:13 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >No, no, this is entirely confused! Despite being closely associated >with Jaubry, the completely separate individual Stefan of Matrin is a >*Hawk*, not a Dragon! And he therefore cannot possibly be the founder >of a Dragon lineage. > > Am I missing something here? Or do I even want to know? Majikjon From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 24 08:50:21 2005 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:50:21 -0000 Subject: Seasons Greetings In-Reply-To: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051224165022.JOBW1068.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> Seasons Greetings to all And in the words of Dave Allen, May your god(ess) go with you. Cheers MArk From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 11:44:57 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 11:44:57 -0800 Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> References: <43AC83D5.4010600@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/23/05, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >No, no, this is entirely confused! Despite being closely associated > >with Jaubry, the completely separate individual Stefan of Matrin is a > >*Hawk*, not a Dragon! And he therefore cannot possibly be the founder > >of a Dragon lineage. > > > > > Am I missing something here? Or do I even want to know? > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311113/ http://www.patrickobrian.com/ http://www.wwnorton.com/pob/pobfaq.htm http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/10531 And so on and so forth. Also, the following Captain's^W^W^W Author's Log extract - no longer available to easily point to, but nevertheless: [Begin Cite] Mon Oct 27th, 2003 3:21 PM A trying day, but, ultimately, a successful one. At two bells of the morning watch, in moderate SSW topgallent staysail breeze, the Linux box grounded in a moderate shoal on a lee shore, which turned out to be a dead hard drive complicated by a video card that was suffering from dry rot. To make matters worse, not half a glass later, Quar's car turned out to have a dead battery. With me needing to check email and Quar needing to get to school, there was the devil to pay and no pitch hot. Well, we cleared for action at once and sent the hands to breakfast, after which we signaled for AAA. Around six bells, we beat to quarters, dismasted the box, rebuilt her (a new copper bottom--with a decent trim she should do very well on a bowline) and floated her. AAA showed up, the car started, and when Quar got back from school I was able to send the copyedited manuscript of _Sethra Lavode_ off to Tor. By the time I was back, the software was up and running, and the only problem was getting the ISP connections right. I must say that officers and men behaved most handsomely--we found the gateway, rigged it, gave her a broadside, and boarded in the smoke. By four bells of the afternoon watch we were back on line, by which time the breeze had freshened to a moderate gale. I should be able to check my email before we make landfall. I should especially mention the efforts of Quar and Caliann who behaved in a most officer-like manner during the cutting out action; Doug, who handed the dog watch (so to speak); and Lee, who provided the necessary intelligence regarding Redhat Linux and saw to the arrangement of the hold. All in all, it was the completest thing. I have the Honor to Remain &c. [End Cite] From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Dec 25 10:16:02 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:16:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <43AB473D.7020804@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051225181602.65119.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nice! I will add it to the list of sites on Cracks & Shards, with an appropriate note about its purpose. >>>>> "A Note on Color: The color scheme of this site is based on the colors of the House of Dragon. These are black and silver, which may be a little hard on the eyes when reading stories for long periods. I would suggest copy-pasting the text from story pages into a text editor with a white background if you are sensitive to such things. If there is demand, I may even develop an "eye-friendly" version of the site. Please let me know if this is something you'd like to see." <<<<< I would. I would like to SEE the site. Imagine some of your would-be readers as having eyes no longer young and screens not as large as they would wish. Then remember that it is not just your (or my) imagination. If you will permit me to say so, my lord, it seems to me inhospitable to ask your guests to copy-paste each page of your site in order to read it, thus losing the enjoyment and guidance of all your formatting, not to mention the ability to click directly on a link. May I offer a suggestion? Black on silver (light-grey) would preserve the colors and be much easier to read, as can be seen in the parts of the page guide/header that are at full brightness (behind "Course Catalog", in my view). True, it reverses the BALANCE of the colors from what we see in Dragonlords' dress, but the identity of the House is still unmistakeable. We know the colors of twelve out of the sixteen Houses that presumably have them (the Yendi, of course, have no distinctive heraldic colors) (http://www.cracksandshards.com/characteristics.html), and no two of them are distinguished from each other only by order or prominence of the colors. mam / c&s __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Dec 25 14:20:16 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (lincicum at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 22:20:16 +0000 Subject: Terics Academy Message-ID: <122520052220.2104.43AF1B2000083397000008382200737478039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Mark A. Mandel" > Nice! I will add it to the list of sites on Cracks & Shards, with an > appropriate note about its purpose. Many thanks. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to see. > > >>>>> > "A Note on Color: > > I would. I would like to SEE the site. Imagine some of your would-be > readers as having eyes no longer young and screens not as large as they > would wish. Then remember that it is not just your (or my) imagination. Well, that about tears it, I guess; I guess I'll have to make an appearance change. I do like the black background better, so maybe just an overall increase in font size throughout would do? Luckily, I had the foresight to do the coloration an font styling through external CSS so I should be able to remedy this complaint relatively quickly. > May I offer a suggestion? Black on silver (light-grey) would preserve the > colors and be much easier to read, as can be seen in the parts of the page > guide/header that are at full brightness (behind "Course Catalog", in my > view). True, it reverses the BALANCE of the colors from what we see in > Dragonlords' dress, but the identity of the House is still unmistakeable. I actually did a mockup of the site in this color format initially, to see if it would work better, but didn't care for it . Additionally, in the case of Dragons, I believe the balance IS an important consideration. Also, in traditional heraldry, metallic colors (Argent and Or) are more often used as background for the other colors, rather than the reverse, so there's a fair amount of tradition involved here. Of course, traditional heraldry never had to deal with making it look good in a browser window, either... But hey, if the size change doesn't do the trick, I've got the color shift as a fallback strategy. How's that for good tactics? ;-) Majikjon From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 26 18:34:10 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <122120050353.8027.43A8D1BD000078B700001F5B2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051227023410.14784.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah. What dictionary? I will check my sources. ... Lewis & Short have "localis" only as the adjectival form of "locus": that is, meaning 'local', just what it looks like (and is the etymon of). I don't know if L&S is on the Web. It's the Oxford Press classic; says here "Impression of 1966; first edition 1879." 2000pp or so, so I couldn't just reach over and grab it, I had to get out of my chair and get it with both hands. It's a hard life. I don't speak Latin, much -- I can if pushed to it -- but I did study it in h. s. and have stayed in touch with it all my life, so to speak, being a linguist (language scientist) by profession as well as avocation. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel (of Cracks and Shards) --- lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > > -------------- Original message > From: "Mark A. Mandel" > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Locali > > Bravo! Only it should be "Dramatis Loci". > > According to the online Latin-English dictionary I consulted, the > translations are as follows: > > Loci=Places > Locali=Locations > > Now, I don't speak Latin (who does?), and have only studied it > informally. Also, I don't know if there is an established convention for > lists of place names in literature; but it seems to me that either of > these would be valid. > > But I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice. > > Majikjon > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Dec 26 18:52:54 2005 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:52:54 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051227023410.14784.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051227023410.14784.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B0AC86.80300@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Ah. What dictionary? I will check my sources. > >... > >Lewis & Short have "localis" only as the adjectival form of "locus": that >is, meaning 'local', just what it looks like (and is the etymon of). > >I don't know if L&S is on the Web. It's the Oxford Press classic; says >here "Impression of 1966; first edition 1879." 2000pp or so, so I couldn't >just reach over and grab it, I had to get out of my chair and get it with >both hands. It's a hard life. > >I don't speak Latin, much -- I can if pushed to it -- but I did study it >in h. s. and have stayed in touch with it all my life, so to speak, being >a linguist (language scientist) by profession as well as avocation. > >-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel (of Cracks and Shards) > > Hmm... Upon further review, the online dictionary I consulted actually lists the translation of Localis as "Local" (which I must have taken to mean "localle" when I was reading it earlier) but actually is indeed the adjective form of locus, just as you said. I will have to correct this in the wiki immediately. See? I told you I could be wrong. ;-) As a friend of mine used to say: "Simia Estorquia Clavis Bonum" Majikjon Oh, incidentally, I've dramatically increased the font size on the Terics Academy site, if you wanted to check it out. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 26 19:05:51 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:05:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would please put it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I have taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly credited of course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Dec 26 19:20:16 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Terics Academy In-Reply-To: <122520052220.2104.43AF1B2000083397000008382200737478039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051227032016.35844.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As I type this, I am uploading the Cracks and Shards index page that adds the Terics Academy to the list of websites. Incidentally, you'll probably want to correct "ar[i]bitrary" to "arbitrary" in the 3rd paragraph of your About page. I fixed it in the quote I used. --- lincicum at comcast.net wrote: > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Mark A. Mandel" > > Nice! I will add it to the list of sites on Cracks & Shards, with an > > appropriate note about its purpose. > > Many thanks. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to see. > > "A Note on Color: > > > > I would. I would like to SEE the site. Imagine some of your would-be > > readers as having eyes no longer young and screens not as large as > they > > would wish. Then remember that it is not just your (or my) > imagination. > > Well, that about tears it, I guess; I guess I'll have to make an > appearance change. > > I do like the black background better, so maybe just an overall increase > in font size throughout would do? It's a lot easier to read this way. Thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 12:38:54 2005 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:38:54 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/26/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would please put > it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I have > taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly credited of > course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 > I've been doing some more tsalmythological research, and I believe I have found some more useful posts in the mailing-list archives. The post marked with a "==>" has the most definitive statement we have on the topic (SKZB says: "However, I was not being entirely serious"). http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9362 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9375 ==> http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9493 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9552 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9709 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/12745 I have been unable to dig up information about the con that the original poster recalls hearing the statement at, however, it occurs to me that the poster may have misremembered the year, city name and/or state name. Searching on "mississippi brust" found, among other things, the following amusing interview, so it wasn't a total loss. http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html At some point, I shall update the Tsalmyth article with the intelligence I have discovered. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Dec 27 13:48:20 2005 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:48:20 -0500 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: References: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63A56EDC-91CF-4DFC-8965-6111B3C875C7@mac.com> On Dec 27, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 12/26/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would >> please put >> it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I >> have >> taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly >> credited of >> course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 >> > > I've been doing some more tsalmythological research, and I believe I > have found some more useful posts in the mailing-list archives. The > post marked with a "==>" has the most definitive statement we have on > the topic (SKZB says: "However, I was not being entirely serious"). > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9362 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9375 > > ==> http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9493 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9552 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/9709 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/12745 > > > I have been unable to dig up information about the con that the > original poster recalls hearing the statement at, however, it occurs > to me that the poster may have misremembered the year, city name > and/or state name. Searching on "mississippi brust" found, among > other things, the following amusing interview, so it wasn't a total > loss. > > http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html > > At some point, I shall update the Tsalmyth article with the > intelligence I have discovered. > listinfo/dragaera Thanks for the priceless interview. My favorite insight, one which would never have crossed my mind, is below: QM: If you had 20 millions dollars, would you spend it on a trip to the space station, or would you just waste it? SKZB: I would not waste it. I would make good, solid investments in drugs and hookers. As Vlad would never say, "Tag. You're it" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20051227/62889d2f/attachment-0001.html From kknolte at ecity.net Tue Dec 27 10:57:14 2005 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:57:14 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: <43A6EA10.4F05@ecity.net> <77369c850512221100o54a843dek5a95ee21a85abc47@mail.gmail.com> <43AB015C.5080908@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43B18E87.5A20@ecity.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > >> > >> So maybe Kragar is full Dragon, but so dangerous to a primarily military > >> house like the Dragons (given that he's good enough at getting things done > >> to be promoted, but absolutely horrible at being in charge), that he'd get > >> kicked out? > >> > >> Not to be contrary, but I doubt that Kragar's reason for being kicked out > >of the house has to do with his ability to command. Why wouldn't they just > >demote him? I would guess that he committed a crime or deed outside of > >battle (read assassination or some other improper Dragon act) that got him > >booted from the house. > > > > > What is a demoted Dragon Lord? A Dragon Commoner? Have we met such? What is an improper Dragon act, anyway? I kinda had the impression that a *proper* Dragon fights to win [1], and the honor of the House is that they win wars. Espionage just isn't much fun to a Dragon, because if done properly no one knows that you've won, right? (IANA CIA agent, but I assume that's correct)? And breaking your word is a good way to get people to distrust you, which leads to them preferring an enemy to you when it comes to alliance - and Dragons have noticed that it's much easier to win with a bigger army. Similarly, Dragons want to be Warlords because that's the best way to show that you can win wars publically. The e'Lanyas were Dragon Heirs because the e'Lanyas were notoriously good tacticians (or at least that's the thing Sethra finds worthy of mention regarding e'Lanyas, rather than that e'Lanyas are notoriously *honorable*). And at least one Dragon was willing to enlist a Jhereg in his army, and not for his skill in charging the enemy head-on. Similarly, Kieron was willing to use Dolivar's scum to do the scouting, etc. OTOH, Kieron got killed for his fight to get the Jhereg into the Cycle [2] - don't remember if itwas stated that the Dragons did it, or some other tribe. [1] As opposed the Dzur, who apparently fight because they want to be heroes, and dying in a good cause is as good as winning it. [2] I think the Jhereg being part of the Cycle would be an argument against the theory that the Jenoine created the Cycle when they created the Houses. - Or, hm, have we ever heard anything about Serioli gods? KAren From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed Dec 28 20:13:18 2005 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:13:18 EST Subject: Terics Academy Message-ID: <19f.43052278.30e4bc5e@aol.com> In a message dated 12/23/2005 10:34:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, katt_jean at sbcglobal.net writes: Katt "I have a WAY? Is that better than having a plan?" Katt, do you have the DVD yet? The Offiical Visual Companion says "I have a way? Is that better than a plan?" From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 20:59:40 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:59:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43A98DEC.8010400@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -- Jon Lincicum wrote: > Personally, I don't trust Vlad any more than I trust Kragar. And that line about how Kragar knows what Eastern Kingdom Vlad is from because he "wouldn't go to work for you without knowing something about you..." I find it highly unlikely that Vlad wouldn't have probed into Kragar's past in the same way--translation: Vlad knows perfectly well what the deal is with Kragar, but just hasn't chosen to share that information with the silver box he talks to (i.e the reader). Not necessarily. I was thinking today about detective novel tropes. The hero(ine) has - the sidekick, - the friend on the force or elsewhere in power, - and various other people with special knowledge or abilities to call on. Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work that he DELEGATES to K. m a m / c&s __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 21:14:22 2005 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:14:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20051227030551.74453.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060101051422.27554.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: > I asked if whoever had the info about the Tsalmoth myth would please put it on the Lyorn Records. Sir Davdi has summarized it nicely, and I have taken the liberty of putting his words there myself, properly credited of course: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Tsalmoth_%28animal%29 --- And now I see that "Majikjon" -- the founder of the Terics Academy -- has moved it to a "Meta" page, which is appropriate since it's discussion of the Tsalmoth OUTSIDE the universe of the stories (Doylist rather than Watsonian), and has added a whole lot of the information that has come up in this thread, organized very nicely. :-) mam/c&s -- and a very happy New Year to all! __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/