From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 1 09:39:18 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:39:18 EST Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Message-ID: On 12/27/2005 8:56:20 PM, kknolte at ecity.net wrote: >Or, hm, have we ever heard anything about Serioli gods? How about this? The Paths of the Dead, paperback, Chapter the Thirty-Fourth, page 385 "At that instant, she found that she was looking at one of the gods she had not hitherto confronted. This one appeared to her as a being not unlike a Serioli, a very old Serioli--one with wrinkles and splotches of great age, and whose gnarled hands rested palms up upon thin knees the outlines of which were visible beneath a frail garment of dark blue. And in those hands and upon those knees was an object that Zerika knew at once, though she had never seen it, nor, indeed, heard more than the most cursory description of it." From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 16:31:08 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:31:08 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >-- Jon Lincicum wrote: > >>in the same way--translation: Vlad knows perfectly well what the deal >is >>with Kragar, but just hasn't chosen to share that information with >the >>silver box he talks to (i.e the reader). > >>Not necessarily. I was thinking today about detective novel tropes. > >The hero(ine) has > - the sidekick, > - the friend on the force or elsewhere in power, > - and various other people with special knowledge or abilities to call >on. > >Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, >as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to >look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work >that he DELEGATES to K. > > Yes, certainly that's the kind of work that Vlad delegated to Kragar--AFTER he decided to let Kragar be his chief lieutenant. But given Vlad's penchant for careful preparation in regards to setting up an assassination (done in the early days BEFORE Kragar was working for him), it seems unusual that he wouldn't take the time to do the same sort of work up on Kragar--detective story conventions aside. As to not having the resources to look into Kragar's past--well, there are two ways to look at that. #1. Certainly Vlad had some good friends at that point (He hadn't met Morrolan or Sethra yet, but he had met /Kiera/, and Nielar was a close associate (who had employed Kragar himself (partnering him with Vlad) prior to that). Secondly, it seems likely that if he HADN'T been able to do a good work up on Kragar, he wouldn't have offered him the job. (Thier friendship up to that point was nice and all, but hardly the kind of thing Vlad would be willing to bet his life on.) I dunno. That's just how I see it. Vlad didn't stay alive in the Jhereg for so long *just* by being lucky. (Although there was certainly a good amount of luck involved.) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 16:32:05 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:32:05 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20060101050625.17123.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060101050625.17123.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B87485.8080108@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >--- Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > >>Upon further review, the online dictionary I consulted actually lists >> >> >the translation of Localis as "Local" (which I must have taken to mean >"localle" when I was reading it earlier) > >"locale"? (one "L") > > Umm.. Yeah. Apparently Latin isn't the only language I'm having trouble with at the moment. ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 16:34:30 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:34:30 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20060101051422.27554.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060101051422.27554.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B87516.4080005@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- And now I see that "Majikjon" -- the founder of the Terics Academy -- > >has moved it to a "Meta" page, which is appropriate since it's discussion >of the Tsalmoth OUTSIDE the universe of the stories (Doylist rather than >Watsonian), and has added a whole lot of the information that has come up >in this thread, organized very nicely. > > In all fairness, while I moved the article to Meta, Davdi of Silverrock should be credited for the expansion of the article (and a very nice job he did of it, as well). >:-) > >mam/c&s -- and a very happy New Year to all! > > Indeed. Hope you all didn't get too sloshed last night. (Oooo, my head.) Where's an anti-hangover spell when you really need one? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 17:55:04 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:55:04 -0800 Subject: Another candidate for Vlad's mother in BP (Minor BP Spoliers) In-Reply-To: <43A5E2DB.9040204@comcast.net> References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> <43A5E2DB.9040204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43B887F8.1000508@comcast.net> Mia McDavid wrote: > I have always been sure in my own mind that Vlad's mother was > mentioned in Brokedown Palace. On reviewing names for the Dramatis Personae page at the wikicity, I stumbled across the reference to the one sort of "minor" female character in BP who is a servant at the palace: a woman named Juliska who is the head assistant to the cook (Ambrus the Fat). Since Noish-pa's cat is also named Ambrus, could this be a subtle clue pointing to Juliska as Vlad's mother? Granted, this is a stretch, but the "Mariska-as-Vlad's-Mom" theory seems to be contradicted by Verra's comments in /Issola/, so Juliska is about the only other female candidate we have left (assuming, of course, that Vlad's mother does indeed appear someplace in BP, which is far from certain.) Majikjon From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jan 2 05:06:04 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:06:04 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > Not necessarily. I was thinking today about detective novel tropes. The > hero(ine) has > - the sidekick, > - the friend on the force or elsewhere in power, > - and various other people with special knowledge or abilities to call > on. > > Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, > as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to > look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work > that he DELEGATES to K. Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? We know that there have been some Dragon-Jhereg wars in the past, where the Jhereg gave a respectable account of themselves as far as assassinating prominent Dragons go. If you take the view that the Dragon's 'honor' relies on going up against someone and winning [1], it would seem likely that they like to know what they're up against before having to design tactics to fight - and Kragar's peculiar talent at being overlooked could be quite useful. [2] Also, the Jhereg were founded by a Dragon, and Draghaera is a world where tribal stereotypes are genetic, rather than cultural - you're not going to find a straightforward Yendi, or a Dzur who couldn't care less about his reputation, etc. So theoretically, Dragon and Jhereg goals shouldn't be that far apart, although what is considered acceptable means would differ. Like, perhaps Dolivar's crime wasn't that he was sneaky, but that he used his sneakiness to take advantage of people's weakness [3]. Karen [1] Presumably there needs to be at least a chance that it's a fair fight - Aliera gave Vlad the name of the Dragon who beat him up because she knew that Vlad couldn't fight back. OTOH, given the talk about Aliera and Morrolan slaughtering Easterners who had no chance of hurting them, their version of a fair fight might be along the lines of an officer who thinks insurgents should form up in a nice exposed position with machine guns so he can shoot them with air support, long-range artillery, and tanks, otherwise they're not brave like he is. [2] For a completely off-the-wall speculation, what if the invisibility is based on a link to the Orb, and the reason Vlad remembers Kragar enough to think of him when he needs a right-hand man, is because he's an Easterner and not that much of a sorceror? Be interesting to know if Kelly's Easterners don't have the problem noticing Kragar that Draghaerans do. [3] As an example of what I'm thinking, in Pratchett's "The Fifth Elephant" "...I didn't know we did this sort of thing!" "You use spies all the time, dear,' said Sybil "I do not!" "Well, what about people like Foul Ole Ron and No Way Jose and Cumbling Michael?' "That is not spying, that is not spying! That's just 'information received' We couldn't do the job if we didn't know what's happening on the street!" So, House of the Dragon doesn't spy, they just want to know what's happening elsewhere so they can do the job. The House of the Jhereg does spy and takes advantage of people's weaknesses (all the stuff that gets outlawed because people won't stop doing it themselves) to win. Ie, a Dragon wouldn't take advantage of a weakness for s'yang stones to blackmail someone - a Jhereg (and by extension Dolivar) would if it's the easiest way to do it. Karen From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 2 12:29:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:29:04 -0800 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> Message-ID: K Kuhn Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/02/06 05:06 AM Please respond to kknolte at ecity.net To "Mark A. Mandel" cc Dragaera list Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the >Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? We Indeed, there's a full page of such musings at the wikicity. See: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Kragar Majikjon From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Jan 2 13:34:10 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060101112252.02569a68@cox.net> Message-ID: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > It is my vague recollection that Kragar and Vlad were partnered > early in V.'s career doing "work"; Kragar's only requirement was that > V. had to be the boss. Do I misremember? If so, we both do. m a m /c&s __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 2 13:41:20 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:41:20 -0800 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/02/06 01:34 PM To "Peter H. Granzeau" , Dragaera list cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >--- "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: >> It is my vague recollection that Kragar and Vlad were partnered >> early in V.'s career doing "work"; Kragar's only requirement was that >> V. had to be the boss. Do I misremember? > >If so, we both do. > >m a m /c&s To be perfectly clear (and by all means, let us be clear), Vlad was partnered with Kragar by Neilar on the condition that he didn't have to give any orders. This does not mean that Vlad became his "boss" at this point, it just put Vlad in charge when the two of them were out "enforcing". (Please note, it is made quite clear that when Vlad began to do "work" he did so on his own, NOT in partnership with Kragar. At least not until Tagichatn was out of the way.) This is confirmed by Kragar's reaction to the results of Vlad's first piece of "work" (Tiev) where he was highly critical of Vlad's methods. This is all as related by Vlad in /Taltos/, so the normal rules about unreliable narrators apply, of course. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 2 14:17:00 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:17:00 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43B9A65C.7010206@brazee.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the >Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? > Once you suspect him of being a deep cover agent, consider alternative bosses he might be working for. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 16:59:25 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:59:25 -0700 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: References: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601021659j1603daeemdd4fbe2734095c5f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > At least not until Tagichatn was out of the way. In passing, I'll note that Vlad's cavalier treatment of Tashigatin's name is one of my favorite parts of Taltos. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 2 16:57:29 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:57:29 -0500 Subject: want a copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to find. I already have a copy of my own. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 2 17:15:22 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:15:22 -0800 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601021659j1603daeemdd4fbe2734095c5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0601021659j1603daeemdd4fbe2734095c5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B9D02A.1010002@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>At least not until Tagichatn was out of the way. >> >> > >In passing, I'll note that Vlad's cavalier treatment of Tashigatin's >name is one of my favorite parts of Taltos. > >Max Wilson > It's a nice touch. Really lends a human quality to Vlad's telling of the story. Also nicely reinforces the concept of Vlad as an unreliable narrator. And, heck, it's pretty funny. I'll throw that in, too. ;-) Majikjon From shoby187 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 2 17:39:23 2006 From: shoby187 at yahoo.com (Erik Holmes) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:39:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Say it ain't so! In-Reply-To: <43B9D02A.1010002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, I was just browsing Amazon and came across a link for Dzur that stated that it wasn't going to be out until August. For someone reason I got the impression that it was going to be out much sooner then that. :( Guess I'll go reread Issola for the 10th time . . . (or maybe Phoenix). "I didn't spend all those years playing D&D and not learn a little something about courage." -Some Dork, The X-Files Erik Holmes Shoby187 at yahoo.com AIM: ErikHolmes & Erickh0510 ICQ: 2593395 MSN: Shoby187 at hotmail.com Y!: Shoby187 at yahoo.com __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 2 18:27:02 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:27:02 -0500 Subject: want a copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> References: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> Message-ID: <660CD83D-C5A7-433F-A4D6-EF47255ECBB3@mac.com> On Jan 2, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone > here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to > find. I already have a copy of my own. It is a nice thought, but two weeks too late for me. There is a new edition trade paperback out, so Steve has probably already anted up the $13.95 I spent... From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 2 18:29:20 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:29:20 -0500 Subject: Say it ain't so! In-Reply-To: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C95BDED-B1D4-4A3F-8298-27E664FF87E7@mac.com> On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:39 PM, Erik Holmes wrote: > Ok, I was just browsing Amazon and came across a link for Dzur that > stated that it wasn't going to > be out until August. > > For someone reason I got the impression that it was going to be out > much sooner then that. :( > > Guess I'll go reread Issola for the 10th time . . . (or maybe > Phoenix). > > "I didn't spend all those years playing D&D and not learn a little > something about courage." > -Some Dork, The X-Files > > Erik Holmes > Shoby187 at yahoo.com > AIM: ErikHolmes & Erickh0510 > ICQ: 2593395 > MSN: Shoby187 at hotmail.com > Y!: Shoby187 at yahoo.com Yeah, I prepaid for Dzur (full price, no less) at Amazon, anticipating an April release date. Now it is back to August...I only hope that he is working hard on TSALMOTH to relieve our curiousity...my personal hypothesis is that it is "LAST MOTH" spelled inside out. Ken From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 18:50:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:50:05 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43B9A65C.7010206@brazee.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> <43B9A65C.7010206@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601021850g1869dcdasfd0d3cca17d0ba5f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/2/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > K Kuhn wrote: > > >Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the > >Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? > > > Once you suspect him of being a deep cover agent, consider alternative > bosses he might be working for. Paarfi, of course. He's got a vested interest in snooping through other peoples' mail. Betcha Sethra tipped him off, though. ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 02:07:06 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 05:07:06 -0500 Subject: want a copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <660CD83D-C5A7-433F-A4D6-EF47255ECBB3@mac.com> References: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> <660CD83D-C5A7-433F-A4D6-EF47255ECBB3@mac.com> Message-ID: I could use it. On 1/2/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > On Jan 2, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone > > here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to > > find. I already have a copy of my own. > > It is a nice thought, but two weeks too late for me. There is a new > edition trade paperback out, so Steve has probably already anted up > the $13.95 I spent... > > From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 3 06:47:11 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:47:11 -0500 Subject: "J A 'Dusty' Sayers": Re: want a copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <200601031447.k03ElBsK008089@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu> We have a winner ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: Received: from po11.mit.edu ([unix socket]) by po11.mit.edu (Cyrus v2.1.5) with LMTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:22:17 -0500 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu by po11.mit.edu (8.12.4/4.7) id k033MFMl023522; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.68]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id k033MCiC019712 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from nc-67-77-49-44.dyn.sprint-hsd.net ([67.77.49.44] helo=sayersnet.com) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1EtckW-0001U0-00 for jjnichol at MIT.EDU; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:22:12 -0500 Message-ID: <43B9EDE3.5080905 at sayersnet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:22:11 -0500 From: "J A 'Dusty' Sayers" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, cy, en-gb, ja, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joy Jennifer Nicholson Subject: Re: want a copy of Gypsy? References: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121 at no-knife.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121 at no-knife.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.191 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 I'd like a copy if you still have it. How much would you want for it (including shipping) and how would you like to be paid? If you've already sold it or given it to someone else, though, that's cool. Thanks! Dusty Sayers Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone >here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to >find. I already have a copy of my own. > > > > - -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must.' -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ------- End of Forwarded Message From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 07:48:09 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:48:09 -0600 Subject: Say it ain't so! In-Reply-To: <1C95BDED-B1D4-4A3F-8298-27E664FF87E7@mac.com> References: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1C95BDED-B1D4-4A3F-8298-27E664FF87E7@mac.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > I only > hope that he is working hard on TSALMOTH to relieve our > curiousity...my personal hypothesis is that it is "LAST MOTH" spelled > inside out. > Ken I don't know. Coming up with new names is tricky business. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a complete and utter spur-of-the-moment fabrication out of whole cloth. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 3 14:50:34 2006 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:50:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation Message-ID: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? That would make Aliera his sister both biologically (except for difference in species) and spiritually, explaining why she puts up with/likes Vlad. Maybe if Verra has a child with a Dragaeran, then the child is Dragaeran. If she has a child with an Easterner, then the child is an Easterner. This could explain Vlad's father's dislike of Vlad learning witchcraft, because he may figure things out. Does this make any sense? --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 3 15:06:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:06:59 -0800 Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation In-Reply-To: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Scott Kreitzer Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/03/06 02:50 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Vlad's Mother Speculation >I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. > > Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? > > That would make Aliera his sister both biologically (except for difference in species) and spiritually, explaining why she puts up >with/likes Vlad. > > Maybe if Verra has a child with a Dragaeran, then the child is Dragaeran. If she has a child with an Easterner, then the child is an >Easterner. This could explain Vlad's father's dislike of Vlad learning witchcraft, because he may figure things out. > > Does this make any sense? This is yet another topic on which the wikicity chimes in. Is there anything it *can't* do? http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Vlad_Taltos Majikjon From rone at ennui.org Tue Jan 3 15:14:30 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> Bryan Newell writes: So apparently Vlad and Paarfi (and possibly Kiera (Orca), Savn (Athyra), and Miklos (Brokedown Palace)) are narrating these novels to Brust via the magic box. What makes you say this? There's only proof that Vlad is talking to the box. We also know that Steven Brust is translating Paarfi's books. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 16:35:06 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:35:06 -0700 Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation In-Reply-To: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601031635j39f4233akf2ecebabe1a469f9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/3/06, Scott Kreitzer wrote: > I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. > > Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? Anything's *possible*. Previous discussions of this topic have left me unconvinced. There's not enough positive evidence in its favor, and significant contradictions involved. Devera calls Morrolan "Uncle 'Rolan" as well; she may very well know about the spiritual connection between Dolivar and Aliera; and a child might very well call a family friend "Uncle" in any case. Verra doesn't treat Vlad like a son; she would have had to be married to Vlad's father, which from Vlad's description of him sounds like an unappealing prospect (and "Noish-pa as Vlad's REAL dad" is prima facie ridiculous); she calls Vlad by his species-name, "Easterner." Aliera knows about her relationship with Verra, so you have to postulate some reason why Verra would conceal her relationship with Vlad. Search the list archives. I'm positive that we've discussed this recently. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 17:43:36 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:43:36 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> rone wrote: >What makes you say this? There's only proof that Vlad is talking to >the box. We also know that Steven Brust is translating Paarfi's books. > > Well, there's also the theory that Devera acts as a courier. But if we're playing along with the idea that Brust is only recording these stories as related by someone else, then he has to get the stories from SOMEWHERE. It's true that the "Silver Box" delivery method is the only means that has been explicitly noted in the books, it's a reasonably safe assumption to make that Brust "The Interviewer" might use this method to gather the Paarfi stories and BP via the same method. To the left, of course, seeing as how Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) it's at least possible that Brust may have simply picked up a copy of Paarfi's works while he was there and simply translated them. (However, the interview with Paarfi at the end of FHYA indicates that Paarfi is aware that these books are being published outside of Dragaera in a different format.) Goodness knows where Brust "The Translator" got the money to pay Paarfi for the right to do this... Perhaps it's because he knows better than to play a seven duece off-suit? ;-) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 3 17:47:37 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on > occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) Doesn't follow. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 18:32:46 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:32:46 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >>Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on >>occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) >> >> > >Doesn't follow. > > Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane of existance somewhere?) Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 3 20:35:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > > > >>Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on > >>occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) > >> > >> > > > >Doesn't follow. > > > > > Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has > been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane > of existance somewhere?) > > Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. No, none of the above follows. A simple scenario: Dragaeran X creates a box that communicates with SKZB. X teaches him the language via the box. X gives the box to Vlad. Vlad has never met SKZB. Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the SKZB-Paarfi interview. Paarfi has met the person who gives him the box, but has never physically met SKZB. From rone at ennui.org Tue Jan 3 20:44:26 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:44:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> Jon Lincicum writes: Goodness knows where Brust "The Translator" got the money to pay Paarfi for the right to do this... Perhaps it's because he knows better than to play a seven duece off-suit? ;-) No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully himself with vulgar haggling. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 21:13:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:13:34 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >>Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has >>been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane >>of existance somewhere?) >> >>Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. >> >> > > >No, none of the above follows. > >A simple scenario: Dragaeran X creates a box that communicates with SKZB. >X teaches him the language via the box. X gives the box to Vlad. Vlad >has never met SKZB. Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the >SKZB-Paarfi interview. Paarfi has met the person who gives him the >box, but has never physically met SKZB. > > Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an intermediary? Possible. However, this begs the obvious question; who could serve in such a capacity? And how did Brust get into contact with HIM? (Or his intermediary, or however many levels of intermediate negotiators you'd like to add.) Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview; which was clearly carried out between Brust and Paarfi directly, although I grant it is certainly less clear in this case whether the two are face-to-face, or communicating through some other means. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 21:14:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:14:37 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43BB59BD.5020305@comcast.net> rone wrote: >Jon Lincicum writes: > Goodness knows where Brust "The Translator" got the money to pay Paarfi > for the right to do this... Perhaps it's because he knows better than to > play a seven duece off-suit? ;-) > >No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully >himself with vulgar haggling. > > Yes, however, the money did have to come from somewhere, whoever it was who actually handled the unpleasant details. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 00:02:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:02:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >A simple scenario: Dragaeran X creates a box that communicates with SKZB. > >X teaches him the language via the box. X gives the box to Vlad. Vlad > >has never met SKZB. Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the > >SKZB-Paarfi interview. Paarfi has met the person who gives him the > >box, but has never physically met SKZB. > > > > > Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to > talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an > intermediary? I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be an intermediary. > Possible. I.e., your earlier assertion was entirely wrong. > However, this begs the obvious question No, it doesn't. Perhaps Mark will explain. > who could serve in such a capacity? And how did Brust get into contact > with HIM? (Or his intermediary, or however many levels of intermediate > negotiators you'd like to add.) You've just discovered that we don't know all the details of how the Texts got transmitted, in case they did. > Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview That's incorrect. From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 01:17:10 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:17:10 -0500 Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601031635j39f4233akf2ecebabe1a469f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0601031635j39f4233akf2ecebabe1a469f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps she's trying not to spoil him? Wasn't it mentioned in Issola, when Sethra is talking to Teldra, that Vlad has been 'trained'? Maybe Vlad is part divine and Verra simply wishes to conceal from him that they're related, so not to get him all proud of himself or expect help from her and develop survival skills Aliera doesn't have. Also, remember Vlad's father always changed his description of Vlad's mother and how she died/left. Verra's a chaotic god-either he could be remembering what happened but there were several encounters, or possibly Verra messed with his memories as such not to give it away. This also may explain Vlad's father's bitterness towards Eastern things and wanting to be accepted as a Dragaeran, or better- he's been the consort of a goddess. And I kind of read a sullen resentment of Vlad in him-perhaps because he's part divine? On 1/3/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 1/3/06, Scott Kreitzer wrote: > > I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. > > > > Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that > Verra is Vlad's mother? > > Anything's *possible*. Previous discussions of this topic have left me > unconvinced. There's not enough positive evidence in its favor, and > significant contradictions involved. Devera calls Morrolan "Uncle > 'Rolan" as well; she may very well know about the spiritual connection > between Dolivar and Aliera; and a child might very well call a family > friend "Uncle" in any case. Verra doesn't treat Vlad like a son; she > would have had to be married to Vlad's father, which from Vlad's > description of him sounds like an unappealing prospect (and "Noish-pa > as Vlad's REAL dad" is prima facie ridiculous); she calls Vlad by his > species-name, "Easterner." Aliera knows about her relationship with > Verra, so you have to postulate some reason why Verra would conceal > her relationship with Vlad. > > Search the list archives. I'm positive that we've discussed this recently. > > Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jan 4 02:33:31 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:33:31 +0100 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window Message-ID: I don't know if this has come up yet on the list, but I'm fairly sure that it hasn't been mentioned for the last year, at least. In the eighth Sandman comic, Worlds' End, there's a man by the window in page 147 that looks exactly like someone we know. Has anyone else noted this cameo? Anyone who hasn't read Neil Gaiman's excellent Sandman comic should. :) From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:22:20 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:22:20 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBDFC.3010608@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >It's true that the "Silver Box" delivery method is the only means that >has been explicitly noted in the books, it's a reasonably safe >assumption to make that Brust "The Interviewer" might use this method to >gather the Paarfi stories and BP via the same method. > > We don't know who owns the silver box. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:24:08 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:24:08 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBE68.10709@brazee.net> >Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has >been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane >of existance somewhere?) > >Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. > > > Or somebody else gave him the magic box. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:27:14 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:27:14 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBF22.3090909@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >However, this begs the obvious question; who could serve in such a >capacity? And how did Brust get into contact with HIM? (Or his >intermediary, or however many levels of intermediate negotiators you'd >like to add.) > > No it doesn't. My point is that we should not treat assumptions as fact. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:28:16 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:28:16 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB59BD.5020305@comcast.net> References: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB59BD.5020305@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBF60.1000000@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >>No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully >>himself with vulgar haggling. >> >> >> >> >Yes, however, the money did have to come from somewhere, whoever it was >who actually handled the unpleasant details. > > I really don't see Paarfi as unwilling to go commercial. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 07:13:28 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 07:13:28 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >>Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to >>talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an >>intermediary? >> >> > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be >an intermediary. > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to face, and there was no intermediary involved? >>Possible. >> >> > >I.e., your earlier assertion was entirely wrong. > > Not at all. As you so admirably stated earlier, we *don't know*. If I say that it seems likely that Brust "The Interviewer" has gone to Dragaera personally at some point, and then you say, "AHA! you're wrong because it isn't *absolutely certain* that he did", you haven't really even addressed my original point. Rather, you've inferred the supposition that I was insisting that my theory be true, which was not the case at all. >> However, this begs the obvious question > > > >No, it doesn't. Perhaps Mark will explain. > > It would be nice if someone would. It is somewhat wearying to try to formulate a discussion, and have your counterpart simply gainsay everything without bothering to explain his position. As some admirable python once said; "That's not an argument, it's a simple contradiction!" >>Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview >> >> > >That's incorrect. > > As you do here. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 09:45:31 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:45:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >>Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to > >>talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an > >>intermediary? > >> > >> > > > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB > >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be > >an intermediary. > > > > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have > an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to > face, and there was no intermediary involved? Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your sentence above is confused. > If I say that it seems likely that Brust "The Interviewer" has gone to > Dragaera personally at some point You mischaracterize your own argument. > and then you say, "AHA! you're wrong > because it isn't *absolutely certain* that he did", you haven't really > even addressed my original point. Ignoring your original statement, you don't understand how to show something is likely, or how to dispute such an argument. If you have any evidence that SKZB communicates with Vlad, or that Vlad has any knowledge of SKZB, those would be the sorts of thing you'd want to present. You'd also want to have thought about counterexamples and have a general idea why their general class is unlikely vs your claim. > >> However, this begs the obvious question > > > > > > > >No, it doesn't. Perhaps Mark will explain. > > > > > It would be nice if someone would. It is somewhat wearying to try to > formulate a discussion, and have your counterpart simply gainsay > everything without bothering to explain his position. This point was a bit humorous - look up "begging the question", e.g. in wikipedia. > >>Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview > >> > >> > > > >That's incorrect. > > > > > As you do here. The extremely simple scenario I gave explicitly addressed the Paarfi interview. You don't really seem to be paying attention here. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 4 12:28:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:28:18 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/04/06 09:45 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: The Magic Box On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your >sentence above is confused. My pardon, that sentence was indeed poorly phrased. On re-reading that statement, I realize that I should have said: "Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to get Brust theses stories if they never met face to face, and there was no intermediary involved?" Just so we can agree on terms, here is what Merriam-Webster has to say about an intermediary: Intermediary : acting as a mediator In layman's terms, I would take this to mean: A person or agency that allows for indirect communication between two parties. If you have an alternate definition you would like to use, I'm open to it, just let me know what it is so I can modify my wording as appropriate to express myself clearly to you. >> If I say that it seems likely that Brust "The Interviewer" has gone to >> Dragaera personally at some point > >You mischaracterize your own argument. It seems likely that I phrased the original statement more strongly than was intended. (The use of the word "Must" in my original statement appears to be the principal verb in question.) I cheerfully withdraw this verb if this is indeed your objection. As this particular statement was not the primary thrust of my original point, it makes little difference to me. >If you have any evidence that SKZB communicates with Vlad, or that Vlad >has any knowledge of SKZB, those would be the sorts of thing you'd want >to present. You'd also want to have thought about counterexamples and >have a general idea why their general class is unlikely vs your claim. Evidence? Well, this whole conversation started from the postulate that Brust DID receive the texts from the world of Dragaera somehow, rather than creating them on his own. As this point was my postulate, it doesn't require its own evidence, and places the entire conversation in the realm of speculation. If you wish to dispute the truth of this postulation, I won't argue with you, as I personally believe that Brust simply made up the stories. (Although I realize it borders on heresy to say such things here... ;-) ) >> It would be nice if someone would. It is somewhat wearying to try to >> formulate a discussion, and have your counterpart simply gainsay >> everything without bothering to explain his position. > >This point was a bit humorous - look up "begging the question", e.g. >in wikipedia. Ah! Finally, an explanation. Well, I would invite you to see the above statement about the initial postulate of the argument. This is speculation; it is not meant to prove a point, therefore, it cannot be considered a fallacious argument, since I don't really claim any of it is true. >The extremely simple scenario I gave explicitly addressed the Paarfi >interview. You don't really seem to be paying attention here. Well, you *mention* the Paarfi interview, it's true, though you don't really *address* it, per se. The part that is unclear to me is: "Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the SKZB-Paarfi interview." Leads how? How does Vlad giving the box to Sethra set up an interview with Brust? Where is the connection to SKZB here at all? And how is this not simply a series of intermediary agents in between Vlad and SKZB? (Or rather, bewteen Paarfi and SKZB?) Further, since the Paarfi interview seems to show that Paarfi is directly observing shrugs, nods, and other gestures made by Brust during the interview, I would say that it is at least essential that the two can see each other (whether this is via televsion, some sorcerous equivilent to television, or an actual face-to-face interview). However, I would suggest that Occam's Razor would make the face-to-face meeting the more likely of these possibilities. Really, as I am relatively new to the discussion list, and this seems to be a well-trampled topic, it might help me more if you either a) reference previous mailing posts discussing the topics or b) state the nature of your objections a little more verbosely up front, since I am otherwise forced to guess at which part of my argument you find to be fallacious, and your rationale for thinking so. This makes it very difficult to respond to your points. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:45:07 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:45:07 -0800 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > I don't know if this has come up yet on the list, but I'm fairly sure that > it hasn't been mentioned for the last year, at least. > In the eighth Sandman comic, Worlds' End, there's a man by the window in > page 147 that looks exactly like someone we know. Has anyone else noted this > cameo? Indeed, and it looks like you missed a couple of other cameos: ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.51 ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.56 ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.73 Many other annotations and observations here: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~wald/sandman-index.html > Anyone who hasn't read Neil Gaiman's excellent Sandman comic should. :) > I nearly think that the esteemed Steven Brust would entirely agree with this sentiment. Something that I keep forgetting to add to the Meta: sections of the Wikicity entries is that "G'mon, Lord of Dreams" and "Ilen, a Magian" are both references to Steven's friend Neil Gaiman. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:45:35 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:45:35 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB > > >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be > > >an intermediary. > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have > > an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to > > face, and there was no intermediary involved? > > Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your > sentence above is confused. I don't really want to involve myself in a linguistic controversy, but I can only understand your point if you're using a very narrow definition of "intermediary." Are you just being pedantic, or are you postulating e.g. that the "old fool" could have been an independent agent who resold the material to Brust the Translator? One definition from the OED: "Acting or of the nature of action between two persons, parties, etc.; serving as a means of interaction; mediatory." If the information gets from Vlad to Brust through the old fool, that definitely makes him intermediary. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:52:13 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:52:13 +0100 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Indeed, and it looks like you missed a couple of other cameos: > >ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.51 > That ftp seems to be down... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:56:01 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:56:01 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > This point was a bit humorous - look up "begging the question", e.g. > in wikipedia. > Ah, prescription versus description. An ancient argument. I am in favor of dropping the phrase entirely, since it is on the one hand misused, and on the other, misunderstood. Say "X raises the question" for the common usage, and "your argument assumes its own conclusions" for the "proper" usage. But I guess that's my own prescriptivism trying to deal with the problem by annihilating it. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:09:06 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:09:06 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/1/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > > >Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, > >as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to > >look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work > >that he DELEGATES to K. > > > > > Yes, certainly that's the kind of work that Vlad delegated to > Kragar--AFTER he decided to let Kragar be his chief lieutenant. > > But given Vlad's penchant for careful preparation in regards to setting > up an assassination (done in the early days BEFORE Kragar was working > for him), it seems unusual that he wouldn't take the time to do the same > sort of work up on Kragar--detective story conventions aside. I dunno - I don't think Vlad became careful until after making a few mistakes (like his first hit, where he used Loiosh explicitly, and had to clear out of town for a while). He did start out pretty young, after all. He even described himself as being like a young Dzur, brash and reckless. Certainly, killing his own boss in order to advance was pretty brash and reckless. I think it likely that Kragar must have done something that demonstrated to Vlad that he (Kragar) was loyal above and beyond the usual sort of Jhereg loyalty. One of my pararectal notions is that it was Kragar who told Vlad how a less-than-thorough interrogation under the Orb could be... sidestepped, as it were. And that Kragar might have helped ensure that less-than-thorough interrogation by passing a few well-aimed bribes from Vlad to the Jhereg interrogators Although perhaps that may have been Kiera, now that I think about it. > As to not having the resources to look into Kragar's past--well, there > are two ways to look at that. > #1. Certainly Vlad had some good friends at that point (He hadn't met > Morrolan or Sethra yet, but he had met /Kiera/, and Nielar was a close > associate (who had employed Kragar himself (partnering him with Vlad) > prior to that). Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:17:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:17:56 -0800 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >Indeed, and it looks like you missed a couple of other cameos: > > > >ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.51 > > > That ftp seems to be down... > Works just fine for me. *shrug* But there's a mirror of most of those annotations here: http://www.stahl.bau.tu-bs.de/~hildeb/sandman/annotations/ From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:21:22 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:21:22 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601041321y7cdb885bu52156ef5770bcdb8@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I think it likely that Kragar must have done something that > demonstrated to Vlad that he (Kragar) was loyal above and beyond the > usual sort of Jhereg loyalty. [snip] > Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could > trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or > not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). As long as we're speculating, it's not impossible that Vlad *knows* Kragar's true background (if there is one) and simply keeps mum about it. The closest he comes to revealing knowledge of Kiera's background is the comment in Issola about "I was aiming for Third Floor Relic," which is very oblique. Even Kiera has to question him quite pointedly to get him to admit to knowing. All I'm saying is that even if Vlad did know Kragar's background there's no particular way we the readers could know about it, that I can think of. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 4 13:28:21 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:28:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060104212821.6BEAD685F7@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: I guess that's my own prescriptivism trying to deal with the problem by annihilating it. I'm starting to lean this way as well. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 4 13:29:19 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BBBF60.1000000@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060104212919.DA234685F8@boredom.ennui.org> Howard Brazee writes: Jon Lincicum wrote: >rone wrote: >>No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully >>himself with vulgar haggling. >Yes, however, the money did have to come from somewhere, whoever it was >who actually handled the unpleasant details. I really don't see Paarfi as unwilling to go commercial. I don't think he's unwilling to go commercial, either. Then again, there is no mention of Paarfi hiring an agent... hmmmm. Yes, i'm contradicting myself. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 13:29:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:29:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB > > > >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be > > > >an intermediary. > > > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have > > > an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to > > > face, and there was no intermediary involved? > > > > Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your > > sentence above is confused. > > I don't really want to involve myself in a linguistic controversy, but > I can only understand your point if you're using a very narrow > definition of "intermediary." Are you just being pedantic, or are you > postulating e.g. that the "old fool" could have been an independent > agent who resold the material to Brust the Translator? > > One definition from the OED: "Acting or of the nature of action > between two persons, parties, etc.; serving as a means of interaction; > mediatory." If the information gets from Vlad to Brust through the old > fool, that definitely makes him intermediary. Hmm, I don't see the necessity. X finds a box. X gets a vision that Vlad should talk into the box. SKZB happens to be at the other end. One day the box starts talking to him in Hungarian with some funny words thrown in. Is X an intermediary here? What about Y, who sent the vision? To be pedantic: isn't an intermediary something like a map defined on the set (A_0, A_1, ..., B_0, B_1, ...) indexed by all sentences, with B' = i_A(B) and A' = i_B(A)? To me, Vlad's statement that he's convinced nothing he tells the box will get back to him indicates a one-way communication (though perhaps someone as talented as Paarfi can make it work in two directions, or can copy the box to make a reversed version, or ...) Do we have any sense that Vlad knows what's on the other end of the box? That X does? That X is acting on either's behalf? What if X has arranged for SKZB to be paid - that makes him a boss, not an intermediary, doesn't it? Anyway, I doubt anything useful can be adduced from this discussion, except that SKZB likes on occasion to make gestures at explanations so cursory that they mock the expectation of consistency. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 13:38:36 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:38:36 -0700 Subject: Begging the question In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BC405C.1050409@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I am in favor of dropping the phrase entirely, since it is on the one >hand misused, and on the other, misunderstood. Say "X raises the >question" for the common usage, and "your argument assumes its own >conclusions" for the "proper" usage. > > > But that would be communicating clearly! From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 13:42:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:42:21 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BC413D.9050705@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> As to not having the resources to look into Kragar's past--well, there >> are two ways to look at that. >> #1. Certainly Vlad had some good friends at that point (He hadn't met >> Morrolan or Sethra yet, but he had met /Kiera/, and Nielar was a close >> associate (who had employed Kragar himself (partnering him with Vlad) >> prior to that). > >Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could >trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or >not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). > > My question - which will probably someday be answered - is: When did the powers decide that Vlad would be a useful tool? Clues indicate that it could have been early - possibly before his birth. Maybe there was a period when they were unaware of him, but at least one of his early acquaintances isn't known for overlooking things. And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? With these questions in mind - the question of Kragar has some interesting directions available. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:45:58 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:45:58 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: <20060104212821.6BEAD685F7@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "rone" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > Davdi Silverrock writes: > I guess that's my own prescriptivism trying to deal with the > problem by annihilating it. > > I'm starting to lean this way as well. > > rone > -- > No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. > - Roy S. Rapoport I have always been that way, and my time in the military only enhanced that trait. Jeff "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of high explosive" From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 13:46:14 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:46:14 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43BC4226.30507@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >Hmm, I don't see the necessity. X finds a box. X gets a vision that >Vlad should talk into the box. SKZB happens to be at the other end. >One day the box starts talking to him in Hungarian with some funny words >thrown in. Is X an intermediary here? What about Y, who sent the vision? > > He has told the box stuff that a careful assassin wouldn't tell the world, so he must have some assurance or possibly enforced direction to convince him to do so. Now that doesn't mean he can't have enough control so that he doesn't betray a friend's secrets - but he certainly had revealed his own secrets - to us. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 4 14:03:13 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of high explosive" Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to meet this criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are simply insoluble. Casey From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:18:19 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:18:19 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601041418x4994f165qdab626d9824e0ca0@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > One definition from the OED: "Acting or of the nature of action > > between two persons, parties, etc.; serving as a means of interaction; > > mediatory." If the information gets from Vlad to Brust through the old > > fool, that definitely makes him intermediary. > > Hmm, I don't see the necessity. X finds a box. X gets a vision that > Vlad should talk into the box. SKZB happens to be at the other end. > One day the box starts talking to him in Hungarian with some funny words > thrown in. Is X an intermediary here? What about Y, who sent the vision? By the definition above, yes, X and Y are both intermediaries. However, if this is what you had in mind (or the scenerio where "old fool" is Brust's boss instead of some kind of agent) then at least you weren't just being pedantic, which is what I was puzzled by. > To be pedantic: isn't an intermediary something like a map defined on > the set (A_0, A_1, ..., B_0, B_1, ...) indexed by all sentences, with > B' = i_A(B) and A' = i_B(A)? I don't recognize your notation but I get the sense. I don't recognize the provenance of your definition, but it's probably an acceptable definition for many purposes. I'm defending the original statement 'Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an intermediary?' from (possible) nit-picking. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:23:47 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:23:47 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of > high explosive" > > Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to meet this > criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are simply > insoluble. > I believe that there are definitions of "solve" for which the maxim quoted is always correct, although they are more usually used by chemists and such. (examining the OED, and noting the following:) [begin cite] {dag}1. trans. To loosen; to break. Obs. {dag}2. a. To unbind, untie. Obs. 5. To dissolve, put an end to, settle. 6. To dissolve; to melt. Hence solved ppl. a.; {sm}solving vbl. n. and ppl. a. [end cite] Although captious interpretation of the usages interpretable as meaning physical destruction might well lead to situations where students of mathematics being told to "solve for x" results in the entire school burning down and/or blowing up. Moral: Do not allow students access to dictionaries and/or volatile chemicals. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 14:26:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601041418x4994f165qdab626d9824e0ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601041418x4994f165qdab626d9824e0ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > To be pedantic: isn't an intermediary something like a map defined on > > the set (A_0, A_1, ..., B_0, B_1, ...) indexed by all sentences, with > > B' = i_A(B) and A' = i_B(A)? > > I don't recognize your notation but I get the sense. I don't recognize > the provenance of your definition, but it's probably an acceptable > definition for many purposes. The notation above is pararectal, ditto the definition. > I'm defending the original statement > 'Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money > to talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it > was an intermediary?' from (possible) nit-picking. I think the statement in question presumes "SKZB is paying Vlad directly or indirectly", which is unsupported by data. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 4 15:53:26 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:53:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Magic Box Message-ID: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >Sent: Jan 4, 2006 3:28 PM >To: Philip Hart >Cc: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List >Subject: Re: The Magic Box > The part that is unclear to me is: "Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading > to the SKZB-Paarfi interview." > > Leads how? How does Vlad giving the box to Sethra set up an interview with > Brust? Where is the connection to SKZB here at all? And how is this not > simply a series of intermediary agents in between Vlad and SKZB? (Or > rather, bewteen Paarfi and SKZB?) Well, Paarfi and SKZB have had an interview, so there's a connection between Paarfi and SKZB. And Philip believes that Paarfi and Sethra are nearly the same person, so there's the connection between Sethra and SKZB; this is part of the communication problem here, since you've probably not seen too many references to Paarfi being ~= to Sethra, and it should also clarify instances when Philip refers to Paarfi as talented, etc. (Philip's theory is fairly amusing; once I get back to Massachusetts tomorrow, I can search for the thread/posts and send them or a link to them to you). Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 4 16:46:11 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:46:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <20060105004611.0D385685FF@boredom.ennui.org> Casey Rousseau writes: "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of high explosive" Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to meet this criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are simply insoluble. I would argue that these problems are simply awaiting for the proper, correct application of high explosives to be found. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 17:29:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:29:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, or anyway haven't yet. I think I only see dragaera-bounces in Jon's comments, btw. Reply to Jose follows. On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jose Marquez wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > >Sent: Jan 4, 2006 3:28 PM > >To: Philip Hart > >Cc: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List > >Subject: Re: The Magic Box > > > The part that is unclear to me is: "Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading > > to the SKZB-Paarfi interview." > > > > Leads how? How does Vlad giving the box to Sethra set up an interview with > > Brust? Where is the connection to SKZB here at all? And how is this not > > simply a series of intermediary agents in between Vlad and SKZB? (Or > > rather, bewteen Paarfi and SKZB?) > > Well, Paarfi and SKZB have had an interview, so there's a connection > between Paarfi and SKZB. And Philip believes that Paarfi and Sethra are > nearly the same person, so there's the connection between Sethra and > SKZB; this is part of the communication problem here, since you've > probably not seen too many references to Paarfi being ~= to Sethra, and If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up frequently. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:49:47 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:49:47 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601041321y7cdb885bu52156ef5770bcdb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041321y7cdb885bu52156ef5770bcdb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43BC7B3B.60404@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >As long as we're speculating, it's not impossible that Vlad *knows* >Kragar's true background (if there is one) and simply keeps mum about >it. The closest he comes to revealing knowledge of Kiera's background >is the comment in Issola about "I was aiming for Third Floor Relic," >which is very oblique. Even Kiera has to question him quite pointedly >to get him to admit to knowing. All I'm saying is that even if Vlad >did know Kragar's background there's no particular way we the readers >could know about it, that I can think of. > > I believe you have stated my initial point admirably. Vlad plays his cards very close to the vest. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:52:17 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:52:17 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060104212919.DA234685F8@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060104212919.DA234685F8@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43BC7BD1.1020105@comcast.net> rone wrote: >I don't think he's unwilling to go commercial, either. Then again, >there is no mention of Paarfi hiring an agent... hmmmm. Yes, i'm >contradicting myself. > > Do Dragaerans have agents? I mean, we know that some musicians get gigs arranged by (for lack of a better term) "talent-agencies" in Adrilankha (Tomas, Ramon, et al.) But I don't know that I've seen the concept of a *personal* business agent presented in any of the books. Paarfi has a *publisher*, to be sure, but an agent may be a foreign concept to a Dragaeran. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:55:17 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:55:17 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <43BC413D.9050705@brazee.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC413D.9050705@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BC7C85.8010603@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > My question - which will probably someday be answered - is: When did > the powers decide that Vlad would be a useful tool? Clues indicate > that it could have been early - possibly before his birth. Maybe > there was a period when they were unaware of him, but at least one of > his early acquaintances isn't known for overlooking things. > > And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? > > With these questions in mind - the question of Kragar has some > interesting directions available. Well, if Verra really was his mother, I'd have to say it probably started before he was born. ;-) If not, then, well, it probably was the moment that they realized that he would someday hold Godslayer.... Which (again) may have been before he was born,.at the time he came into possesion of Spellbreaker, or possibly when he ventured to the Paths of the Dead. How much foresight into the future do the gods of Dragaera have, anyway? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 18:00:51 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:00:51 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BC7DD3.5020003@comcast.net> Jose Marquez wrote: >Well, Paarfi and SKZB have had an interview, so there's a connection between Paarfi and SKZB. And Philip believes that Paarfi and Sethra are nearly the same person, so there's the connection between Sethra and SKZB; this is part of the communication problem here, since you've probably not seen too many references to Paarfi being ~= to Sethra, and it should also clarify instances when Philip refers to Paarfi as talented, etc. (Philip's theory is fairly amusing; once I get back to Massachusetts tomorrow, I can search for the thread/posts and send them or a link to them to you). > >Jose > > That would be very helpful, and much appreciated. I don't wish to generate too much discussion that is 100% repetition of what has come before. At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:48:31 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:48:31 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/1/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >>Yes, certainly that's the kind of work that Vlad delegated to >>Kragar--AFTER he decided to let Kragar be his chief lieutenant. >> >>But given Vlad's penchant for careful preparation in regards to setting >>up an assassination (done in the early days BEFORE Kragar was working >>for him), it seems unusual that he wouldn't take the time to do the same >>sort of work up on Kragar--detective story conventions aside. >> >> > >I dunno - I don't think Vlad became careful until after making a few >mistakes (like his first hit, where he used Loiosh explicitly, and had >to clear out of town for a while). He did start out pretty young, >after all. He even described himself as being like a young Dzur, >brash and reckless. Certainly, killing his own boss in order to >advance was pretty brash and reckless. > > > [cite] It's hard for me to pin down the point at which I stopped considering myself to be someone's enforcer who sometimes did "work" and started considering myself a freelance assassin...Certainly those around me began to think of me that way before it occurred to me, but I don't think my own thinking changed until I had developed professional habits and a good approach to the job. Once again, it's unclear just when this occurred, but I was certainly functioning like a professional by the time I finished my seventh job--assassinating a little turd named Raiet. [/cite] This quote from Taltos seems to say that Vlad had developed his professional habits BEFORE taking on his own area... and this is confirmed later when Vlad talks about his fact-checking the information he was given by Feet about Raiet. No mention of Kragar throughout this section, and it was before Vlad had his own area, so I would say it appears he had pretty good habits established by then. >I think it likely that Kragar must have done something that >demonstrated to Vlad that he (Kragar) was loyal above and beyond the >usual sort of Jhereg loyalty. > > I do not dispute that there is ample space in what we don't know about Vlad to provide the possibility that Kragar performed some great action, or series of actions that instlled undying trust by Vlad... But if this is the case it would seem somewhat odd to me that he's never mentioned it when talking about Kragar. >One of my pararectal notions is that it was Kragar who told Vlad how a >less-than-thorough interrogation under the Orb could be... >sidestepped, as it were. And that Kragar might have helped ensure >that less-than-thorough interrogation by passing a few well-aimed >bribes from Vlad to the Jhereg interrogators > >Although perhaps that may have been Kiera, now that I think about it. > > Interesting concept. This strikes me as the kind of thing Vlad might even be clever enouigh to come up with on his own, also. >Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could >trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or >not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). > > > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 22:00:36 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 23:00:36 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? I certainly do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't entirely understand. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 22:06:08 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 23:06:08 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 00:40:10 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:40:10 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, > or anyway haven't yet. Well, it hit the mailing list archives. http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2006q1/001137.html I am not sure that the powers-that-be can help in this regard, given that he sent the e-mail directly to you as well as to the list. If your mail server at slac.stanford.edu is dropping stuff on the floor, you can hardly expect the dragaera list administrators to know anything about it, or be able to do anything about it. > I think I only see dragaera-bounces in Jon's comments, btw. This might have something to do with the mail agent he's using at his stream.com account. I note that the "Sender:" header for the list is from "dragaera-bounces"; if he uses "Reply All", and it responds by CC-ing what's in the "Sender" header (as well as what's in the "From:" and "To:" headers), well, I think that would explain it. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 01:05:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:05:58 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he > > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) > > The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his > location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I > can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except > for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does > he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? Amazon "search inside" (of /The Book of Taltos/, containing /Taltos/ and /Phoenix/) says, near the end (indeed, last reference to her in the book): "Oh, and Kragar, say good-bye to Kiera the Thief for me. Tell her I still owe her. On the other hand, I expect she can find me when she wants to." However, I see that you've forgotten that /Tatlos/ is also filled with references to Kiera. Including that she obtained burglary tools for Vlad and trained him in their use. > I certainly do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't > entirely understand. > Kiera got him started in the Organization. She's given him a lot of time and support, starting when he was very very young, and I don't think she's really asked for a whole lot in return. Kinda like his grandfather has, now that I think of it. And I'm pretty sure she's never overtly lied to him, although I think she's lied indirectly by implication (I'm thinking of her "promise" to revenge him if Morrolan kills him). Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her background. And I think a similar argument could be made about why Vlad might trust Kragar: When they started out, Vlad didn't know much about researching backgrounds, but while he worked with Kragar, Kragar proved himself to be reliable (and unambitious). Once Vlad moved up in the Organization, I think he could well have continued to think "Kragar is reliable (and unambitious)", and not felt any need to go poking into Kragar's deep background. On the other hand, it also works if Vlad did do the research at one point, and stopped when he hit the first layer of cover story (assuming that there is indeed a cover story). Or maybe he dug until he felt satisfied that he knew everything he needed to know. I guess my point is that it can be made to work any of the above ways because people aren't 100% consistent. Vlad certainly isn't. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 01:13:45 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:13:45 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over > the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that > there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up > frequently. Actually, there is not. Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it up, presenting every argument in its favor. If you post it to the list, I (or someone) will add it to Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood. Or you could do it yourself, if you wanted to: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/index.php?title=Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood&action=edit From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jan 5 04:57:33 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:57:33 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <196E293A-F541-4252-B1CC-CDA8C6029807@mac.com> On Jan 4, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct > application of > high explosive" > > Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to > meet this > criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are > simply > insoluble. The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 06:52:14 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:52:14 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> <196E293A-F541-4252-B1CC-CDA8C6029807@mac.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Gorelick" To: "Casey Rousseau" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:57 AM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > > On Jan 4, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > > > > > "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct > > application of > > high explosive" > > > > Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to > > meet this > > criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are > > simply > > insoluble. > > The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? > Solutions: 1. Use explosives to make a series of moats and canals to redirect the water. 2. Set of a large thermo nuclear device in the middle of the gulf. The vaporization of the water will drop the water level until the levees are the correct height. 3. When the politicians deny the funding needed to improve the levees, Place a small amount of plastic explosive under the seat of their car. Detonate when said politician enters the car. Repeat as needed, until one gets the point. Jeff -Wondering why the FBI is suddenly taking so much interest in him. . . . From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 06:59:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:59:56 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 12:40 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: The Magic Box >> I think I only see dragaera-bounces in Jon's comments, btw. > >This might have something to do with the mail agent he's using at his >stream.com account. I note that the "Sender:" header for the list is >from "dragaera-bounces"; if he uses "Reply All", and it responds by >CC-ing what's in the "Sender" header (as well as what's in the "From:" >and "To:" headers), well, I think that would explain it. I can confirm at least this much. My work proxy seems to block about every 10th message from the list, and the rest of the time I get the "bounces" address in the recipients (indicating, I think, that the server has had to make two or more attempts to deliver the message). I try to remember to remove the "bounces" address when I reply (I''ve left it in this time for demonstration purposes) but I don't always think of it. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060105/42d53152/attachment.html From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 07:14:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:14:54 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? > > > > Solutions: > 3. When the politicians deny the funding needed to improve the levees, Place > a small amount of plastic explosive under the seat of their car. Detonate > when said politician enters the car. Repeat as needed, until one gets the > point. You are proceeding from the flawed premise that politicians are capable of getting the point of something based on events happening in the real world. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 07:23:00 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:23:00 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jeff G." Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > > > > > > The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? > > > > > > > Solutions: > > > > > 3. When the politicians deny the funding needed to improve the levees, > Place > > a small amount of plastic explosive under the seat of their car. > Detonate > > when said politician enters the car. Repeat as needed, until one gets > the > > point. > > You are proceeding from the flawed premise that politicians are capable of > getting the point of something based on events happening in the real > world. > > Majikjon Conversely, you could say it is a selective breeding program for politicians, with selectors for enhanced awareness of reality. The problem is, so many of them reproduce before they become politicians, making it a long term process. Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 08:39:38 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:39:38 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson wrote on 01/04/2006 10:06:08 PM: > On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way > > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me > > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > > This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does > Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge > of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? > > Max I could only say it's for the reasons she gives at the end of Orca, in response to Vlad's question of "Why Kiera? Or rather, Sethra, why Kiera?" I somehow doubt it's the lawbreaking aspect. She's had plenty of opportunities to do that as Sethra. Having friendships certainly isn't a problem for Sethra, either (see Morrolan, Aliera, StY (pre-Yendi), Tazendra, and most notably Tukko). I think challenge is the key. When you've lived 200,000+ years and are a neigh-unto invincible sorceress and general who can defeat any army on the battlefield, and contemptuously annihilate the greatest Dzur Heroes who come charging up your mountain, you probably are looking for ways to relieve your ennui. Being Kiera, and limiting herself to that persona, gives her challenges in ways she probably hasn't experienced as Sethra for the better part of the life of the Empire. (I'm still dying to know what Sethra was like in the really early days of the Empire. Was she always this badass? Or did she start out as a naieve little sister to some important Dragonlord who helped found the Empire?) BTW: Did Sethra say that Kiera never killed people at all? Or just that she wouldn't kill people in order to keep her true identity a secret? I forget the exact phrasing she used... (Which could be important, considering the first time Vlad met her (in /Taltos/) she was participating in an assassination...) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 5 09:00:54 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:54 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BC7DD3.5020003@comcast.net> Message-ID: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being > in any way > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just > doesn't strike me > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > > Majikjon Prefaces, forwards, etc... are, I believe, normally commissioned by publishers rather than by authors. The "afterword" to _Sethra Lavode_ is ostensibly written by someone who has met Paarfi and admires him. (Pararectally, the description of Paarfi sounds a lot like a sardonic description of Brust himself.) It's a rather big stretch for me to imagine Sethra turning herself into a man and living Paarfi's apparently semi-decadent life, including seducing one of his groupies... Now, you can speculate that Paarfi is nothing more than a shill and that Sethra does the actual writing (Think _Without A Clue_, the film whose premise was that Watson was the actual detective and that "Holmes" was actually an actor hired as a front man. Rather like _Remington Steele_, now that I think about it.) but I think the textev at this point supports the existence of an actual person answering to the name "Paarfi of Roundwood". From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 5 08:23:08 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.co m> References: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105111115.025678e8@cox.net> At 01:06 AM 1/5/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way > > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me > > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > >This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does >Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge >of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? I wouldn't say that it was a matter of "enjoyment" at all. Sethra may have ways to pass the time, of course, but I would have said that Kiera is able to do things and go places that Sethra Lavode can't, and doesn't, and that is the reason for Kiera's existence. Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions based on other things we have learned about Vlad. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 08:59:10 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:59:10 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Maximilian Wilson" Cc: "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:39 AM Subject: Re: (Orca spoiler) > Maximilian Wilson wrote on 01/04/2006 10:06:08 PM: > > > On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any > way > > > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > > > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike > me > > > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > > > > This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does > > Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge > > of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? > > > > Max > > I could only say it's for the reasons she gives at the end of Orca, in > response to Vlad's question of "Why Kiera? Or rather, Sethra, why Kiera?" > > I somehow doubt it's the lawbreaking aspect. She's had plenty of > opportunities to do that as Sethra. > > Having friendships certainly isn't a problem for Sethra, either (see > Morrolan, Aliera, StY (pre-Yendi), Tazendra, and most notably Tukko). > > I think challenge is the key. > > When you've lived 200,000+ years and are a neigh-unto invincible sorceress > and general who can defeat any army on the battlefield, and contemptuously > annihilate the greatest Dzur Heroes who come charging up your mountain, > you probably are looking for ways to relieve your ennui. Being Kiera, and > limiting herself to that persona, gives her challenges in ways she > probably hasn't experienced as Sethra for the better part of the life of > the Empire. (I'm still dying to know what Sethra was like in the really > early days of the Empire. Was she always this badass? Or did she start out > as a naieve little sister to some important Dragonlord who helped found > the Empire?) > > BTW: Did Sethra say that Kiera never killed people at all? Or just that > she wouldn't kill people in order to keep her true identity a secret? I > forget the exact phrasing she used... (Which could be important, > considering the first time Vlad met her (in /Taltos/) she was > participating in an assassination...) > > Majikjon I don't believe that she was participating, IIRC correctly she was at another table and saw what was going on (the assassin intimidating Vlad, and came over to interfere. Jeff From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 5 08:56:05 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:56:05 -0500 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105115418.0257a990@cox.net> At 01:00 AM 1/5/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he > > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) > >The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his >location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I >can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except >for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does >he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? I certainly >do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't >entirely understand. Kiera, of course, hands Vlad the vial of a god's blood, which is put to such good use later on, in _Taltos_. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 5 09:10:51 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:10:51 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61c701c6121a$faab5560$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > BTW: Did Sethra say that Kiera never killed people at all? Or > just that > she wouldn't kill people in order to keep her true identity a > secret? I > forget the exact phrasing she used... (Which could be important, > considering the first time Vlad met her (in /Taltos/) she was > participating in an assassination...) > Kiera has never killed and would never kill to preserve the secret. She wasn't participating in the assassination in the Taltos family restaurant. She stood up to interfere when the assassin threatened Vlad, then she gave Vlad some sympathy afterwards. One of those little details that only takes on greater significance in light of the events of Orca. I agree that we really don't have a clue as to why Sethra and Kiera have taken an interest in Vlad and watched over him most of his life. Vlad seems to understand it, though, so maybe I'm just dense. It might be as simple as him being Dolivar reincarnated, though we don't seem to know enough about that circumstance to conclusively say that it's the reason. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 09:29:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:29:55 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105115418.0257a990@cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 08:56 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? >At 01:00 AM 1/5/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >>On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he >> > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) >> >>The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his >>location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I >>can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except >>for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does >>he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? I certainly >>do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't >>entirely understand. > >Kiera, of course, hands Vlad the vial of a god's blood, which is put >to such good use later on, in _Taltos_. Okay, I will concede that there is ample evidence to support the conclusion that Vlad trusts Kiera. (To a point seemingly beyond that which is wise to do so, it would seem.) And in retrospect, if Vlad didn't trust Kiera, she wouldn't be a reliable source of information on Kragar in the first place, so I guess that observation was ultimately self-defeating anyway. Majikjon From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:38:30 2006 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:38:30 +0000 Subject: Klava with Honey - A Prologue by Steven Brust Message-ID: Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? If so, is it a short story or a poem? The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed / mentioned on the list before. BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON CHAPBOOK 4. USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J Near Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What Sleeps in the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) USD 50.00 Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml Thanks..... PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks with "A Dream of Passion" From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 11:01:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:01:26 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 09:00 AM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: The Magic Box >(Pararectally, the description of Paarfi sounds a lot like a sardonic >description of Brust himself.) It's a rather big stretch for me to imagine Steve wouldn't *ever* sarcastically self-parody himself would he? (Incidentally, the "Gods playing at Eidelons" bit at the end of this section is absolutely fabulous. It also gives us the complete rules for the Dragaeran game of "Seven-Clawed Jhereg", which bears some striking similarities to Hold 'em... (Insofar as it is obviously exactly the same game). This bit also gives nearly a complete breakdown of what a Dragaeran deck of cards consists of. I am currently considering the best way to add this information to the wiki.) >Sethra turning herself into a man and living Paarfi's apparently >semi-decadent life, including seducing one of his groupies... That was my feeling, as well. This just doesn't seem too likely. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 5 11:07:41 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:07:41 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105111115.025678e8@cox.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060105111115.025678e8@cox.net> Message-ID: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we >have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions >based on other things we have learned about Vlad. > > > > She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests of a normal thief. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 11:12:09 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:12:09 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > grandfather has, now that I think of it. And I'm pretty sure she's > never overtly lied to him, although I think she's lied indirectly by > implication (I'm thinking of her "promise" to revenge him if Morrolan > kills him). You mean the fact that she knew Morrolan wasn't actually going to kill him? Or do you think she wouldn't have done it, if Morrolan had gone off his rocker somehow and killed Vlad? If it's about her not admitting that she knew the true circumstances of the theft, I'd say it was a literal truth hiding a deception ("He's not going to kill you") to convey a truth "It's going to be all right." It did succeed in making Vlad feel better, although he wasn't sure why. > Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her > completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her > background. Agree. Vlad really has a soft spot for people, doesn't he? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 11:14:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:14:56 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 11:07 AM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we >>have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions >>based on other things we have learned about Vlad. >> > >She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests >of a normal thief. At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was important that he have it. Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always conciously aware of what they mean. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 5 11:32:25 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:32:25 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <43BD7449.2080705@brazee.net> > >>Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we > >>have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions > >>based on other things we have learned about Vlad. > >> > > > >She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests > >of a normal thief. > > At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was > important that he have it. > > Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, > as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > conciously aware of what they mean. She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is "interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - Kiera is very thorough with her thieving plans, for instance. It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight from book 17 or 18. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 12:25:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:25:09 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BD7449.2080705@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 11:32 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >> Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, >> as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some >> precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always >> conciously aware of what they mean. > > >She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is >"interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - >Kiera is very thorough with her thieving plans, for instance. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Verra could have just randomly guessed that her blood would be somehow useful to Vlad (or rather, to Morrolan). That seems like an incredibly lucky guess; unless Verra is in the habit of giving out her blood to all her new clients, since it has 1001 uses or something. (Four out of five assassins prefer Verra blood for all their everyday sorcery needs!) Sure seems like some kind of limited precognition is a more likely circumstance in this case. >It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was >angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be >considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight >from book 17 or 18. I recently re-read the entire Vlad series and took special note of the encounters with Kiera, even the ones as early as /Jhereg/ and /Yendi/ are full of double-meanings after having read /Orca/. It's a real treat. Majikjon From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Thu Jan 5 12:34:46 2006 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:34:46 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote on 01/05/2006 03:25:09 PM: > Howard Brazee > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/05/06 11:32 AM > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: (Orca spoiler) > > > > > >> Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, > >> as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > >> precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > >> conciously aware of what they mean. > > > > > >She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is > >"interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - > > I'm not sure I buy the idea that Verra could have just randomly guessed > that her blood would be somehow useful to Vlad (or rather, to Morrolan). > > That seems like an incredibly lucky guess; unless Verra is in the habit of > giving out her blood to all her new clients, since it has 1001 uses or > something. (Four out of five assassins prefer Verra blood for all their > everyday sorcery needs!) > > Sure seems like some kind of limited precognition is a more likely > circumstance in this case. > deverra can do all kinds of weird things with time. i've always thought this was because she was verra's granddaughter and therefore it must have been some kind of god-power, probably one that verra had. > >It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was > >angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be > >considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight > >from book 17 or 18. > > I recently re-read the entire Vlad series and took special note of the > encounters with Kiera, even the ones as early as /Jhereg/ and /Yendi/ are > full of double-meanings after having read /Orca/. It's a real treat. > > Majikjon _______________________________________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) and may be confidential, proprietary, and/or legally privileged. Inadvertent disclosure of this message does not constitute a waiver of any privilege. If you receive this message in error, please do not directly or indirectly use, print, copy, forward, or disclose any part of this message. Please also delete this e-mail and all copies and notify the sender. Thank you. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:12:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:12:20 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/5/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > grandfather has, now that I think of it. And I'm pretty sure she's > > never overtly lied to him, although I think she's lied indirectly by > > implication (I'm thinking of her "promise" to revenge him if Morrolan > > kills him). > > You mean the fact that she knew Morrolan wasn't actually going to kill > him? Yes. That is, she implied that it was a possible outcome that Morrolan might kill him (as far as she knew). I'm 99.95% sure that Morrolan was told "The Easterner may provoke you. Do not kill him, no matter how rude he becomes." Or words to that effect (possibly even simpler: "We need his cooperation."). > If it's about her not admitting that she knew the true circumstances > of the theft, I'd say it was a literal truth hiding a deception ("He's not > going to kill you") to convey a truth "It's going to be all right." Is she Sethra Lavode or a Yendi? ("They aren't all that different.") Heh. > It did succeed in making Vlad feel better, although he wasn't sure why. As far as he knew at that time, she meant it, and was capable of carrying it out. > > Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her > > completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her > > background. > > Agree. Vlad really has a soft spot for people, doesn't he? > He has a soft spot for people who are loyal to him. Not so much with the everyone else. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:20:16 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I'm 99.95% sure that Morrolan was told "The Easterner may provoke you. > Do not kill him, no matter how rude he becomes." Or words to that > effect (possibly even simpler: "We need his cooperation."). I wonder what S would have done if M had destroyed V in her home. I can imagine her taking some action describable as "revenge". V: "M, you're a poop-head." M: "V, you look funny minced." S: "M, be a newt." From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:21:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:21:34 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee > > > >She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests > >of a normal thief. Or even an extraordinary thief. > At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was > important that he have it. > > Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, as > it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > conciously aware of what they mean. > I've speculated that Devera was the one who told Verra that she needed to give a small vial of her blood to Sethra, and then told Sethra to give it to Vlad. ("But *why*, child?") ("Because he needs to have it now.") After all, Devera was there right after Vlad retrieved it, and was quite possibly watching from hiding when he gave it to Morrolan to inject (or rather, she was probably watching while hiding the whole time they were on the beach, and only came out to make sure that Vlad woke up properly from his post-spell lassitude). From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:21:09 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:21:09 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. On 1/5/06, Carla Hunt wrote: > > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote on 01/05/2006 03:25:09 PM: > > > Howard Brazee > > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > 01/05/06 11:32 AM > > > > To > > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > > cc > > > > Subject > > Re: (Orca spoiler) > > > > > > > > > > >> Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed > earlier, > > >> as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > > > >> precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > > >> conciously aware of what they mean. > > > > > > > > >She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is > > >"interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - > > > > I'm not sure I buy the idea that Verra could have just randomly guessed > > that her blood would be somehow useful to Vlad (or rather, to Morrolan). > > > > > That seems like an incredibly lucky guess; unless Verra is in the habit > of > > giving out her blood to all her new clients, since it has 1001 uses or > > something. (Four out of five assassins prefer Verra blood for all their > > everyday sorcery needs!) > > > > Sure seems like some kind of limited precognition is a more likely > > circumstance in this case. > > > > deverra can do all kinds of weird things with time. i've always thought > this was because she was verra's granddaughter and therefore it must have > been some kind of god-power, probably one that verra had. > > > >It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was > > >angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be > > >considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight > > >from book 17 or 18. > > > > I recently re-read the entire Vlad series and took special note of the > > encounters with Kiera, even the ones as early as /Jhereg/ and /Yendi/ > are > > full of double-meanings after having read /Orca/. It's a real treat. > > > > Majikjon > > > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________ > > The information contained in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the > intended recipient(s) and may be confidential, proprietary, and/or legally > privileged. Inadvertent disclosure of this message does not constitute a > waiver of any privilege. If you receive this message in error, please do > not directly or indirectly use, print, copy, forward, or disclose any part > of this message. Please also delete this e-mail and all copies and notify > the sender. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________ > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:23:24 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, > > or anyway haven't yet. > > Well, it hit the mailing list archives. And me, eventually. Something at the lab doesn't love Jon. Dear PTB, please ignore my previous plea. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 13:29:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:29:19 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 01:23 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: The Magic Box >On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> > Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, >> > or anyway haven't yet. >> >> Well, it hit the mailing list archives. > >And me, eventually. Something at the lab doesn't love Jon. S'okay. Our network doesn't like me, either. ;-) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:30:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:30:39 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm > surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their food", or words to that effect. (and can we please trim our posts?) From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:33:26 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:33:26 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051333i5fce0d49qd6cfd0b4873ec542@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Yes. That is, she implied that it was a possible outcome that > Morrolan might kill him (as far as she knew). I'm 99.95% sure that > Morrolan was told "The Easterner may provoke you. Do not kill him, no > matter how rude he becomes." Or words to that effect (possibly even > simpler: "We need his cooperation."). Hmmm. >"Standard rates for the job you did," I explained, glancing at the body. "You do good work." >At which point the tray went flying as Sethra Lavode struck it. She stood and her hand went >to the hilt of her weapon. Morrolan also stood, and I swear he growled. So was she acting here, or at least deliberately not reining in her temper? (She wouldn't have actually killed him with Iceflame, any more than I would actually throttle a bratty seven-year-old. But neither the kid nor Vlad has to know that.) > > It did succeed in making Vlad feel better, although he wasn't sure why. > > As far as he knew at that time, she meant it, and was capable of > carrying it out. > > Agree. Vlad really has a soft spot for people, doesn't he? > > He has a soft spot for people who are loyal to him. Not so much with > the everyone else. True, but I guess it's no wonder he didn't make it in the Jhereg, long-term. The bosses--who are presumably the "archetypical" Jhereg--are not very much like him. Far more cold-blooded, less touchy about personal honor, willing as Sethra said to discuss a business deal no matter how they were brought into it. I wonder what Dolivar was like. Max Wilson P.S. Two interesting observations: Kierra calls them "brandies," not "wines" like most Dragaerans. Also, Anne Rice has a recent book named /Taltos/ too. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:36:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:36:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > (and can we please trim our posts?) We can not. There must be 17**17 times more words in the archives than in the Texts to prevent the world from ending, and _Dzur_ is longer than any two books in the extant Vladiad. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:46:27 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:46:27 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051346j13eb3844q5f7336a39c0abf35@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > We can not. There must be 17**17 times more words in the archives than in > the Texts to prevent the world from ending, and _Dzur_ is longer than any > two books in the extant Vladiad. Jerk. You had me there for a second, about /Dzur/. [pouts] ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 13:49:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:49:15 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051346j13eb3844q5f7336a39c0abf35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 01:46 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> We can not. There must be 17**17 times more words in the archives than in >> the Texts to prevent the world from ending, and _Dzur_ is longer than any >> two books in the extant Vladiad. > >Jerk. You had me there for a second, about /Dzur/. [pouts] > >;) Hey, look at it this way, just because he was kidding doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't right. Majikjon From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jan 5 13:52:33 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:52:33 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BD9521.3080903@Sun.COM> Philip Hart wrote On 01/05/06 13:36,: > and _Dzur_ is longer than any > two books in the extant Vladiad. That's because it has all these other quotes from prior books. Looks like: Vlad Taltos wrote: > There is a similarity, if I may be permitted > > No shit, so there I was. Heh. :) Chris From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:56:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:56:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Maximilian Wilson > >On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > >> _Dzur_ is longer than any two books in the extant Vladiad. > > > >Jerk. You had me there for a second, about /Dzur/. [pouts] > > > >;) > > Hey, look at it this way, just because he was kidding doesn't necessarily > mean he wasn't right. Amazon says: Dzur: Hardcover: 320 pages Issola: Hardcover: 256 pages From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:57:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over > > the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that > > there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up > > frequently. > > Actually, there is not. > > Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it > up, presenting every argument in its favor. I wrote at least a summary on the topic here on at least one occasion. Perhaps I can dig one or more up. Unfortunately I have come over time to find the matter boring and simply taken it on as a viewpoint. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 14:45:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:45:50 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 01:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >Amazon says: > >Dzur: Hardcover: 320 pages > >Issola: Hardcover: 256 pages They just don't mention that Dzur is going to be printed with an 8-point font. ;-) Large print edition: only $50 extra. Majikjon From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jan 5 16:55:25 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:55:25 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Davdi Silverrock writes: >On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: >> My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm >> surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. > >Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure >she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their >food", or words to that effect. His dad calls his name right before she uses it. Page 3 in the massmarket edition. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 17:09:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Davdi Silverrock writes: > > >On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm > >> surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. > > > >Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure > >she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their > >food", or words to that effect. > > His dad calls his name right before she uses it. Page 3 in the > massmarket edition. I was just wondering if the Vladiad could have been dictated in Fenarian to simplify things on SKZB's side. We see Noish-pa talking to Vlad in Dragaeran, so I take it the latter language is his native tongue. I assume V's father spoke D for assimilationist reasons, though he was likely bilingual. I wonder if he spoke in F to V in the restaurant when ordering him around. If so, the above might conceivably not be evidence. There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 17:56:03 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:56:03 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 5 20:41:54 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:41:54 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >>On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>>If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over >>>the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that >>>there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up >>>frequently. >>> >>> >>Actually, there is not. >> >>Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it >>up, presenting every argument in its favor. >> >> > >I wrote at least a summary on the topic here on at least one occasion. >Perhaps I can dig one or more up. Unfortunately I have come over time >to find the matter boring and simply taken it on as a viewpoint. > You did indeed. And interestingly, I was in Miami at the time and couldn't search my archives when the discussion came up. If we're searching the list archives, January of 2005 is the month in question, and the thread is the questions about Paarfi thread. More specifically: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16024:bpckibiaojljpeencedl and the actual summary: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16034:bpckibiaojljpeencedl I can grab more cites for this line of speculation from my personal list archive if they're wanted (I generally have an easier time finding things that way). Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 5 20:21:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:21:34 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BDF04E.2050505@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was >>important that he have it. >> >> >I've speculated that Devera was the one who told Verra that she needed >to give a small vial of her blood to Sethra, and then told Sethra to >give it to Vlad. > >("But *why*, child?") >("Because he needs to have it now.") > >After all, Devera was there right after Vlad retrieved it, and was >quite possibly watching from hiding when he gave it to Morrolan to >inject (or rather, she was probably watching while hiding the whole >time they were on the beach, and only came out to make sure that Vlad >woke up properly from his post-spell lassitude). > > Well... but this simply makes Devera the *mechanism* for Verra's precognition. Devera could just as easily have said to Verra 1000 years before the Interregnum: ("Watch out for my Uncle Vlad, cause in about 1500 years he's going to re-create Godslayer.") ("What?!?!?") ...and she therefore decides to keep a close eye on the Taltos family, in general, and Vlad in particular when his time comes along. (And maybe also arranges for Pathfinder (in the guise of a weak morganti sword being carried by Fenarr) to be given to Aliera's father, and also arranges for Vlad to be given the soul of Dolivar (Aliera's brother from a former life) as mechanisms to attempt to control what Vlad is going to *do* with Godslayer, which, needless to say, makes her a bit nervous. In fact, depending on how much advance warning Verra had, Vlad and Godslayer may have been the reason why Verra took such an interest in Fanerio to begin with. Hmph. Interesting how that all sort of clicks together.) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 20:51:30 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Jose Marquez wrote: > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16034:bpckibiaojljpeencedl Ah yes, I had forgotten that it was Sethra who assassinated Tortaalik. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jan 5 21:29:28 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060106052928.CD5A5682DB@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. I think he admits to not being fluent in it. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 21:50:56 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:50:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20060106052928.CD5A5682DB@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060106052928.CD5A5682DB@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. > > I think he admits to not being fluent in it. He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's in Dragaeran. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jan 5 21:56:12 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060106055612.465CD68427@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's in Dragaeran. That is definitely the impression i get. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 22:01:46 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:01:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20060106055612.465CD68427@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060106055612.465CD68427@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's in Dragaeran. > > That is definitely the impression i get. It was my assumption as well, just hadn't considered the matter before. The list has discussed the issue of "gya" at length. I was going to wonder about whether all of Vlad's enforcers are actually male, but forgot the Right/Left distinction which now strikes me as extremely odd. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 6 03:15:02 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:15:02 +0000 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <20060106101626.XRMB29634.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> > > From: Philip Hart > Date: 2006/01/06 Fri AM 05:50:56 GMT > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: (Orca spoiler) > > > > On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > > > Philip Hart writes: > > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. > > > > I think he admits to not being fluent in it. > > He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age > and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his > deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's > in Dragaeran. Given his father wanting to be Dragaeran in all ways, I would ave thought he would only have learnt Dragaeran at home and Noishpa taught him a little Fenarian. My 2 Cents. Mark ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 02:32:45 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 05:32:45 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Did Kiera call him Vlad or ask him to make sure she had it right? On 1/5/06, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock writes: > > >On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm > >> surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. > > > >Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure > >she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their > >food", or words to that effect. > > His dad calls his name right before she uses it. Page 3 in the > massmarket edition. > > > -- > Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com > http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ > "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." > -- James Nicoll > From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 02:49:17 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 05:49:17 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: Honestly, the whole begging the question thing is a bit wearying for anyone like me, who really doesn't care. I use it occasionally, at most, and I've done both the 'proper' and the 'modern' uses. Anyway, all problems can be be solved with explosives, even the insoluble ones- when the problem is presented to you, blow up whomever or whatever presented the problem in the first place. From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 02:54:37 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 05:54:37 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: Also, the levees. Blow up New Orleans, the immediate area around it, and a few of the people whose incompetency caused the problem in the first place. On 1/6/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > > Honestly, the whole begging the question thing is a bit wearying for > anyone like me, who really doesn't care. I use it occasionally, at most, and > I've done both the 'proper' and the 'modern' uses. > > Anyway, all problems can be be solved with explosives, even the insoluble > ones- when the problem is presented to you, blow up whomever or whatever > presented the problem in the first place. > From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 6 05:59:28 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:59:28 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maximilian Wilson" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:56 PM Subject: Re: (Orca spoiler) On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. Actually, I usually try to learn useful phrases like "Could I have another beer please?" and "Where is the bathroom?" first. After that my time is split between learning swear words and pickup lines. Jeff -Can still order beer in most of the major European languages. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 06:44:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:44:53 -0800 Subject: Cursing in Fenarian In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 05:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps >> he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. > >Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. >Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick >up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so >basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So >it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. Dangit, I know that someone has translated the Fenarian phrases used in /Issola/ peviously, but I can't remember if it was on the list, or on a fan page. I figured it *must* be on the Cracks-and-Shards languages page, but alas, it is not. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 06:53:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:53:09 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 09:50 PM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > >> Philip Hart writes: >> There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps >> he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. >> >> I think he admits to not being fluent in it. > >He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age >and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his >deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's >in Dragaeran. [cite] V: "How many languages do you speak, Teldra?" T: "Several," she said, "And you?" V: "None well. A bit of Fenarian. A smattering of a few other Eastern Languages." [/cite] I like the fact that he doesn't even claim to speak Dragaeran 'well'. But Vlad's assessment of his own abilities would be consistent with the above theory. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 06:57:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:57:13 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 05:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. >Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick >up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so >basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So >it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. > >Max Wilson There is it. It's on Phoenix's page, towards the bottom. http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/books.html Tragya means (according to this translation), "We're in deep shit." and Legalabb is "At least." Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 6 08:07:57 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:07:57 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) References: Message-ID: > > > > > >Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. > >Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick > >up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so > >basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So > >it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. > > > >Max Wilson > > There is it. It's on Phoenix's page, towards the bottom. > > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/books.html > > Tragya means (according to this translation), "We're in deep shit." and > Legalabb is "At least." > > Majikjon My resource for all things crude, the Alternative Dictionary, does not mention that word on the Hungarian page. . . . http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.html For shit we have: szar ? shit note Meaning differs from its English equivalent. Though it literally means 'shit' Hungarian people use it to describe something of bad quality. E.g. 'Az eg?sz ?gy szar, ahogy van' = It's not worth a piece of shit. Van egy t?k szar aut?m = I have a really bad car. However, at http://dict.sztaki.hu/index.jhtml I did find tragya, and it was listed as manure, or muck. Given Vlad's opinion of horses, I could see this being a curse to him. Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 08:26:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:26:15 -0800 Subject: Cursing in Fenarian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/06/06 08:07 AM To cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >My resource for all things crude, the Alternative Dictionary, does not >mention that word on the Hungarian page. . . . > >http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.html > >For shit we have: > >szar ? shit note Meaning differs from its English equivalent. Though it >literally means 'shit' Hungarian people use it to describe something of bad >quality. E.g. 'Az eg?sz ?gy szar, ahogy van' = It's not worth a piece of >shit. Van egy t?k szar aut?m = I have a really bad car. > >However, at http://dict.sztaki.hu/index.jhtml I did find tragya, and it was >listed as manure, or muck. Given Vlad's opinion of horses, I could see this >being a curse to him. ...and here's a little more confirmation. This one gives several one-word translations, Muck, Fertilizer, Excrement, Dung, Chip (Like a dung chip?), Muck, manure. This sounds a lot like the same kinds of synonyms you'd have for "shit" (or maybe "crap") if a foreign speaker looked up those words in a dictionary... http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=tragya&allow=true Also, check out the translations for legalabb: http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=legalabb&allow=true "At any rate" or "At the lowest estimate" might also work for this exchange... Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 6 08:34:50 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:34:50 -0700 Subject: Concerning the gods Message-ID: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> >Or perhaps the presence of all that raw Amorphia right nearby causes a >weakness in whatever it is that keeps her from appearing on Dragaera? The difference between gods and demons seems to be in the minds of the gods. Sort of like the difference between serfs and slaves. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 6 08:35:00 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:35:00 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.html > >For shit we have: > >szar ? shit note Meaning differs from its English equivalent. Though it >literally means 'shit' Hungarian people use it to describe something of bad >quality. E.g. 'Az eg?sz ?gy szar, ahogy van' = It's not worth a piece of >shit. Van egy t?k szar aut?m = I have a really bad car. > > > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. Of course, "shit" in English is more and more like the Hungarian. We are in a society that no longer is afraid to state the concept - only now we use the word "poop" - even in polite company. It's also OK to say something is bull shit, and to a lesser extent - that is a shitty car. A similar change in meaning is "bitch", which used to be used to describe female dogs the way we use "cow" to describe female bulls. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 09:39:06 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:39:06 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman interview In-Reply-To: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> Message-ID: Saw this on Fark today, and figured that a lot of folks here would find it interesting. http://blog.92y.org/index.php/weblog/item/neil_gaiman/ Majikjon From jtoth at megrez.org Fri Jan 6 10:21:31 2006 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:21:31 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey - A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in > the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? > > If so, is it a short story or a poem? Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) Specifically, I'd hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed / > mentioned on the list before. Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's been a long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have been mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks > with "A Dream of Passion" > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 11:43:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800 Subject: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory In-Reply-To: <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 08:41 PM To Dragaera cc Subject >>I wrote at least a summary on the topic here on at least one occasion. >>Perhaps I can dig one or more up. Unfortunately I have come over time >>to find the matter boring and simply taken it on as a viewpoint. >> >You did indeed. And interestingly, I was in Miami at the time and >couldn't search my archives when the discussion came up. If we're >searching the list archives, January of 2005 is the month in question, >and the thread is the questions about Paarfi thread. More specifically: > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16024:bpckibiaojljpeencedl > >and the actual summary: > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16034:bpckibiaojljpeencedl > >I can grab more cites for this line of speculation from my personal list >archive if they're wanted (I generally have an easier time finding >things that way). Using the above, I've taken the liberty of posting this summary (edited a bit for clarity, and wikified) on the wikicity. It can be found at: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood Please review this, if you feel so inclined, and feel free to revise the entry, or else just ask me to revise if you find any points are innaccurate or have been omitted. Majikjon (Your friendly neighborhood Lyorn Records admin) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 6 11:55:35 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood > > Please review this, if you feel so inclined, and feel free to revise the > entry, or else just ask me to revise if you find any points are > innaccurate or have been omitted. The last line should link to spec about the events of _FHYA_ - the related idea that Sethra/Aliera offed Tortaalik and put the blame on (or gave the credit to) Mario, which is a simpler version of events - or be omitted. There should also be a discussion of Orb-Emperor vs Cycle-Emperor drawn from arguments at the time of the summary link. Which the wiki page might link to. From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 12:02:32 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:02:32 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman interview In-Reply-To: References: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> Message-ID: I met him at the first Anansi boys signing (two copies, one for me, one for a friend, and a first edition American gods plus 1602) and mentioned Steve was my favorite author. On 1/6/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Saw this on Fark today, and figured that a lot of folks here would find it > interesting. > > http://blog.92y.org/index.php/weblog/item/neil_gaiman/ > > Majikjon > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 12:07:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:07:17 -0800 Subject: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/06/06 11:55 AM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory >On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> >> http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood >> >> Please review this, if you feel so inclined, and feel free to revise the >> entry, or else just ask me to revise if you find any points are >> innaccurate or have been omitted. > >The last line should link to spec about the events of _FHYA_ - >the related idea that Sethra/Aliera offed Tortaalik and put the blame >on (or gave the credit to) Mario, which is a simpler version of events - >or be omitted. > >There should also be a discussion of Orb-Emperor vs Cycle-Emperor drawn >from arguments at the time of the summary link. Which the wiki page might >link to. Well, since I don't have a good source for these additional theories, it sounds like the last line simply needs to be excised (for now). If anyone gets the time to dig up references to these other spec theories I'd love to have more content for the wiki. Lyorn Records has a whole namespace dedicated to speculation that (so far) is only populated with a smattering of articles (mostly on Kragar, Sethra, various Great Weapons, and Vlad). Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 6 12:15:58 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:15:58 -0700 Subject: Neil Gaiman interview In-Reply-To: References: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BECFFE.80907@brazee.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >I met him at the first Anansi boys signing (two copies, one for me, one for >a friend, and a first edition American gods plus 1602) and mentioned Steve >was my favorite author. > > > I had children & grandchildren with me with copies of books to sign at The Tattered Cover, but gave up an hour after the signing started as it was past our bedtimes. I remember a few years ago asking Steve whether he enjoyed signing. He thought a moment and said that he did. Things may have changed since then, but authors have advantages over many celebrities in being able to pick and choose when they are recognized. Furthermore, they don't have to choose to be recognized when they work. I think it would get very old to be Tiger Woods being asked to sign golf balls, programs, or menus at restaurants. Not enough to retire or anything... From scs at di.org Fri Jan 6 12:21:29 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:21:29 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060106202129.GD21023@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 01:13:45AM -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over > > the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that > > there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up > > frequently. > > Actually, there is not. > > Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it > up, presenting every argument in its favor. If you post it to the > list, I (or someone) will add it to Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood. > Or you could do it yourself, if you wanted to: > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/index.php?title=Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood&action=edit Seconded. I just put up some of my old speculations about Vlad and Cawti there. The site seems a little slow, but it could be they're just having a bad day today. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 12:24:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:24:36 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060106202129.GD21023@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/06/06 12:21 PM To Davdi Silverrock cc Dragaera List Subject Re: The Magic Box >Seconded. I just put up some of my old speculations about Vlad and Cawti >there. The site seems a little slow, but it could be they're just having >a bad day today. It was doing fine...until right after my last message. I think I may have triggered a run on their bandwidth. That'll learn me. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060106/6654a99f/attachment.htm From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Jan 6 12:33:44 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:33:44 -0600 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BED428.6060000@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing > is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how > this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > There is a very great deal of religious cursing in Italy, the locale of the Roman Catholic Church. For more information on cursing; indeed, as much information as you would ever want to know about cursing, go to http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/ , the Internet home of the Journal of Verbal Abuse. This is a legitimate scholarly site, in spite of the proprietor's 'tude and the subject matter. > A similar change in meaning is "bitch", which used to be used to > describe female dogs the way we use "cow" to describe female bulls. Interesting that in English the cattlebeast is the only one generically referred to in the feminine. Dog is masculine, Cat is neuter, but Cow is feminine. Mia From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jan 6 14:07:42 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:07:42 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <28693639.13D6B62F.00048EA6@aol.com> Louis Eastman writes: > Did Kiera call him Vlad or ask him to make sure she had it right? "Vlad!" he called, "what's going on around here? Why--" [...] "Your name is Vlad?" she asked me. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 14:53:42 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:53:42 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <28693639.13D6B62F.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <28693639.13D6B62F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601061453q433bea45x21a367c9f31756e2@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/06, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > "Vlad!" he called, "what's going on around here? Why--" > [...] > "Your name is Vlad?" she asked me. Thanks. Note that this can either be a query seeking information or an informal way of wrangling your own introduction. Have you ever tried to "meet" a girl wearing a nametag? Even if you know her name already it is presumptuous to act like you know it. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jan 6 15:29:41 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:29:41 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BEFD65.4040806@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing > is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how > this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other language on earth, goddamit! Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jan 6 17:21:30 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:21:30 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BED428.6060000@comcast.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> <43BED428.6060000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3D852DB8-1DC5-44B2-B1B7-D5F5CE3E574E@mac.com> On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > > > Howard Brazee wrote: > >> >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French >> cursing >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I >> wonder how >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. >> > There is a very great deal of religious cursing in Italy, the > locale of the Roman Catholic Church. > > For more information on cursing; indeed, as much information as you > would ever want to know about cursing, go to http://www.sonic.net/ > maledicta/ , the Internet home of the Journal of Verbal Abuse. > This is a legitimate scholarly site, in spite of the proprietor's > 'tude and the subject matter. > >> A similar change in meaning is "bitch", which used to be used to >> describe female dogs the way we use "cow" to describe female bulls. > > > Interesting that in English the cattlebeast is the only one > generically referred to in the feminine. Dog is masculine, Cat is > neuter, but Cow is feminine. > > Mia How udderly insightful! From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jan 6 17:22:46 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:22:46 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BEFD65.4040806@comcast.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> <43BEFD65.4040806@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2006, at 6:29 PM, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French >> cursing >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I >> wonder how >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing > in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. > Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other > language on earth, goddamit! > > Majikjon Jesus H Christ, can't you stick to the point? Holy Moses! Jeez! From steve at romlin.com Sat Jan 7 14:02:12 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:02:12 +0100 Subject: Religious swearing Message-ID: > > > > > > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing > > is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how > > this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing in > the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. Hell, > I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other language on > earth, goddamit! > > Majikjon > > >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French > >> cursing > >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I > >> wonder how > >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing > > in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. > > Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other > > language on earth, goddamit! > > > > Majikjon > > Jesus H Christ, can't you stick to the point? Holy Moses! Jeez! > > Just reading the above made me reflect -- I assumed, reading the "Holy Mary" stuff, that it came from a more-religious part of the US. Automatically. And when I noticed myself assuming it, I wondered if maybe more-religiously-inclined cultures (or in the US, subcultures) will tend to swear more religiously. Or perhaps more recognizably religiously. ("Zounds", "Bloody" etc being no longer recognizably religious despite their origin, and "Jeez" starting to lose it). I lived in Italy for a few years and noticed that their swearing was usually either religious, or sacred/profane mixes, (e.g. porcodio -- "pig-god"). They occasionally threw in "puttana" as somewhere in between (porca puttana -- pig-whore) and it was considered really offensive. They had slang for sexual/scatological bits and used them cheerfully as profanities, but they had less power than the religious ones. And yes, they were all devout catholics. -- \Steve the Younger From kknolte at ecity.net Sat Jan 7 09:45:43 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:45:43 +0100 Subject: The Magic Box References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > > Now, you can speculate that Paarfi is nothing more than a shill and that > Sethra does the actual writing (Think _Without A Clue_, the film whose > premise was that Watson was the actual detective and that "Holmes" was > actually an actor hired as a front man. Rather like _Remington Steele_, now > that I think about it.) but I think the textev at this point supports the > existence of an actual person answering to the name "Paarfi of Roundwood". > How hard would it be to come up with a fake identity that's from an aristocratic House? On the one hand, you'd think with Dragaeran's long lifespans, they'd know an awful lot of relatives - kinda along the lines of knowing who your second cousins twice removed are, because you've been seeing them at great-great-grandpa's birthday parties, and they're aristocratic and concerned about making sure kids marry only within the House. So would people get suspicious if they couldn't figure out who someone was related to? On the other hand, Khaavren quite obviously didn't know of all the courtier Tiassa who might be a useful connection if he needed some Tiassa help - and I'd think a Countess would be fairly important. Anyone have any idea how big the various aristocratic Houses are (with the easy exception of the current Phoenix)? Karen From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 18:40:55 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:40:55 -0800 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> Steve Rapaport wrote: >Just reading the above made me reflect -- I assumed, reading the "Holy Mary" >stuff, that it came from a more-religious part of the US. Automatically. >And when I noticed myself assuming it, I wondered if maybe >more-religiously-inclined cultures (or in the US, subcultures) will tend to >swear more religiously. Or perhaps more recognizably religiously. >("Zounds", "Bloody" etc being no longer recognizably religious despite their >origin, and "Jeez" starting to lose it). > > Well, really, I'm not all that religious (I was raised a Methodist, but consider myself more or less an agnostic). And where I live (Oregon) is not particularly religious, overall (We were a blue state in both the last elections, after all). I was really just trying to make a not-to-subtle point in a somewhat humorous way. It was not intended to say that anyone was claiming that religious swearing didn't exist--more to say that all languages and cultures use a mixture of different types of swears, depending on local taboos. >I lived in Italy for a few years and noticed that their swearing was usually >either religious, or sacred/profane mixes, (e.g. porcodio -- "pig-god"). >They occasionally threw in "puttana" as somewhere in between (porca puttana >-- pig-whore) and it was considered really offensive. They had slang for >sexual/scatological bits and used them cheerfully as profanities, but they >had less power than the religious ones. And yes, they were all devout >catholics. > Given the nature of swearing, it makes sense that the more taboo a particular subject is in a given culture, the more likely it is that it would make a good swear. Kinda interesting social comment there, I would say. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 18:44:44 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:44:44 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Scott Schultz wrote: > > >> >>Now, you can speculate that Paarfi is nothing more than a shill and that >>Sethra does the actual writing (Think _Without A Clue_, the film whose >>premise was that Watson was the actual detective and that "Holmes" was >>actually an actor hired as a front man. Rather like _Remington Steele_, now >>that I think about it.) but I think the textev at this point supports the >>existence of an actual person answering to the name "Paarfi of Roundwood". >> >> >> > >How hard would it be to come up with a fake identity that's from an >aristocratic House? On the one hand, you'd think with Dragaeran's long >lifespans, they'd know an awful lot of relatives - kinda along the lines >of knowing who your second cousins twice removed are, because you've >been seeing them at great-great-grandpa's birthday parties, and they're >aristocratic and concerned about making sure kids marry only within the >House. So would people get suspicious if they couldn't figure out who >someone was related to? On the other hand, Khaavren quite obviously >didn't know of all the courtier Tiassa who might be a useful connection >if he needed some Tiassa help - and I'd think a Countess would be fairly >important. Anyone have any idea how big the various aristocratic Houses >are (with the easy exception of the current Phoenix)? > It isn't necessary for Paarfi himself, or his house or origins to be an invention for Philip's theory to work. He's only really saying that Paarfi is being *used* by Sethra, not that he *is* Sethra. At least, that's the impression I got when I typed it up for the wiki. At the same time, given the size of the Empire, and the relatively low technology level and population density, it's not inconceivable that someone could pull off a fairly convincing imposter routine. I seem to recall Pel doing that sort of thing on a couple of occasions. I mean, it's not like the Empire keeps a DNA database of all its citizens. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 7 19:10:11 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:10:11 -0700 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> References: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Given the nature of swearing, it makes sense that the more taboo a > >particular subject is in a given culture, the more likely it is that it >would make a good swear. Kinda interesting social comment there, I would >say. > >Majikjon > > I'm not sure. How religious of a country is France today? And which population in the U.S. is most likely to use religious swearing - the fundamentalists? Or Catholics? There is a tremendous amount of cultural conservativism in swearing. But where this conversation goes to is determining how various cultures in Dragaera swear. It doesn't appear that the Easterners have the same confidence in the everyday existence of gods. Do both cultures say swear by Vera's blood? It is interesting that when Vlad used an unfamiliar curse - he was asked if that was from something that really had been observed (we had observed that yes, it was in fact something real). Can someone look through the text for examples of swearing - and in particular the above example? From pulmon at mac.com Sat Jan 7 19:21:25 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:21:25 -0500 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> References: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:10 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Given the nature of swearing, it makes sense that the more taboo a >> >> particular subject is in a given culture, the more likely it is >> that it would make a good swear. Kinda interesting social comment >> there, I would say. >> >> Majikjon >> > I'm not sure. How religious of a country is France today? And > which population in the U.S. is most likely to use religious > swearing - the fundamentalists? Or Catholics? There is a > tremendous amount of cultural conservativism in swearing. > > But where this conversation goes to is determining how various > cultures in Dragaera swear. It doesn't appear that the Easterners > have the same confidence in the everyday existence of gods. Do > both cultures say swear by Vera's blood? It is interesting that > when Vlad used an unfamiliar curse - he was asked if that was from > something that really had been observed (we had observed that yes, > it was in fact something real). > > Can someone look through the text for examples of swearing - and in > particular the above example? Not a lot of religious swearing in France today. Besides the common "vas te faire fo?tre" (go f*** yourself) to "Bordel de merde" (whorehouse of shit) to ras le cul (I have had it up to my ass) scatalogical and sexual curses are far more common. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 21:12:55 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:12:55 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/7/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > K Kuhn wrote: > > > > >How hard would it be to come up with a fake identity that's from an > >aristocratic House? On the one hand, you'd think with Dragaeran's long > >lifespans, they'd know an awful lot of relatives - kinda along the lines > >of knowing who your second cousins twice removed are, because you've > >been seeing them at great-great-grandpa's birthday parties, and they're > >aristocratic and concerned about making sure kids marry only within the > >House. So would people get suspicious if they couldn't figure out who > >someone was related to? > >On the other hand, Khaavren quite obviously > >didn't know of all the courtier Tiassa who might be a useful connection > >if he needed some Tiassa help - and I'd think a Countess would be fairly > >important. As a high-ranking member of the Empire, he probably knew of both the Tiassa Heir and the Tiassa representative to the Empire, which would certainly suffice for "useful connections". And if he had though to ask, I'm sure that someone of his House could well have told him that one of the Consort's maids-of-honor was a Tiassa, and the Countess of Whitecrest as well (perhaps the Tiassa representative in particular, since he was none other than R?aanac, and thus a relative of Daro through his wife). But in the years prior to Adron's Disaster, Khaavren had become reticent, and no doubt he simply neglected to ask. > > > It isn't necessary for Paarfi himself, or his house or origins to be an > invention for Philip's theory to work. He's only really saying that > Paarfi is being *used* by Sethra, not that he *is* Sethra. > At the same time, given the size of the Empire, and the relatively low > technology level and population density, it's not inconceivable that > someone could pull off a fairly convincing imposter routine. I seem to > recall Pel doing that sort of thing on a couple of occasions. But only briefly, and not to anyone (as I recall) that had the resources to investigate any claims he made as to his identity. > I mean, it's not like the Empire keeps a DNA database of all its >citizens. > Hm. We know they have gene-scanning. And while we don't know how extensive the genetic knowledge is of all the Houses, we do know that the House of the Dragon tracks lineages -- subsets of House Dragon -- very carefully. Perhaps other Houses (except perhaps for the Jhereg) do as well, and we've just not seen it? Although, now that I think about it, Aliera says (in /Yendi/) that a "complicated illusion spell" could fool a genetic scan, if the one performing the scan was incompetent. It may well be that the only reliable way an imposter could exist would be to pass himself off as being a different member of his own House, and possibly of the same lineage. Which is not to argue that Paarfi is an imposter; I'm just musing on the possibilty of long-term House deceit fooling many people -- including those with the knowledge, power, and skill to perform a competent genscan -- for an extended length of time. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 21:20:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:20:34 -0800 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> References: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/7/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > But where this conversation goes to is determining how various cultures > in Dragaera swear. It doesn't appear that the Easterners have the same > confidence in the everyday existence of gods. Do both cultures say > swear by Vera's blood? It is interesting that when Vlad used an > unfamiliar curse - he was asked if that was from something that really > had been observed (we had observed that yes, it was in fact something real). Do you mean this exchange in /Phoenix/ (via Amazon Search Inside)? [Begin Cite] Vlad: "[...] But I know what I'm going to do first: find out just what, by the blood on Verra's floor, is going on in South Adrilankha." "Blood on Verra's floor?" said Morrolan. "I don't think I've heard that oath before." "No," I said. "You probably haven't." [End Cite] (the blood on Verra's floor was Vlad's own, of course) Probably the most amusing oath was this one from /Issola/: Vlad: "By Verra's tits," I said, forgetting then remembering that the pair of them weren't all that far away... From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 21:41:45 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 21:41:45 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C0A619.7040705@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/7/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > >>I mean, it's not like the Empire keeps a DNA database of all its >>citizens. >> >> > >Hm. We know they have gene-scanning. And while we don't know how >extensive the genetic knowledge is of all the Houses, we do know that >the House of the Dragon tracks lineages -- subsets of House Dragon -- >very carefully. Perhaps other Houses (except perhaps for the Jhereg) >do as well, and we've just not seen it? > > Of course, now that I say that, I realize that with 95% of the population of the Empire consisting of Teckla (which wouldn't need to be in any kind of genetic database--at least, the nobility isn't likely to be too concerned with Teckla genetics) the prospect is not so daunting as I first supposed. Has anyone ever made an estimate of the total population of the Empire? Or educated guesses as to how members of each house there are? (Other than Phoenix, which can be counted on the fingers of one thumb.) If there are only a few tens of thousands of Dragons, (or even fewer) then a genetic line wouldn't be hard to keep track of. Similar numbers in the other houses (excepting Phoenix) would hold up there, as well. I would certainly expect some houses (Orca, for example) to be larger than this, and others (Such as Lyorn) to be smaller.... But this is just a gut feeling, as I don't think we have a good basis to go on from the texts themselves. >Although, now that I think about it, Aliera says (in /Yendi/) that a >"complicated illusion spell" could fool a genetic scan, if the one >performing the scan was incompetent. > >It may well be that the only reliable way an imposter could exist >would be to pass himself off as being a different member of his own >House, and possibly of the same lineage. > > Don't forget to take into account Aliera's arrogance on this score... I believe the follow-up question to this exchange was someone asking if StY could have been fooled, and Aliera's response was "Easily." Aliera's idea of what is "competent" is likely to be a rather high standard. >Which is not to argue that Paarfi is an imposter; I'm just musing on >the possibilty of long-term House deceit fooling many people -- >including those with the knowledge, power, and skill to perform a >competent genscan -- for an extended length of time. > > I bet Sethra could do it. There's a certain precident there, after all. ;-) Majikjon From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 8 01:47:55 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 04:47:55 EST Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:42:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? IMO: In My Opinion When: Since Dolivar came to their attention and then died. Or could have been even before Dolivar. How: Having Dolivar be reincarnated into each of the different houses. I think Teckla would be after Dolivar to put fear into him. When done with the 17 houses--Easterner. Dragon Teckla ... Dzur Tiassa Easterner No proof...just my wild speculation that no one else seems to believe in. Steve will show you one day! Or maybe not. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Sun Jan 8 04:04:38 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:04:38 +0100 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Rapaport wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Religious swearing >Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:02:12 +0100 > > >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French > > >> cursing > > >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I > > >> wonder how > > >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > > > > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing > > > in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. > > > Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other > > > language on earth, goddamit! > > > > > > Majikjon > > > > Jesus H Christ, can't you stick to the point? Holy Moses! Jeez! > > > > >Just reading the above made me reflect -- I assumed, reading the "Holy >Mary" >stuff, that it came from a more-religious part of the US. Automatically. >And when I noticed myself assuming it, I wondered if maybe >more-religiously-inclined cultures (or in the US, subcultures) will tend to >swear more religiously. Or perhaps more recognizably religiously. >("Zounds", "Bloody" etc being no longer recognizably religious despite >their >origin, and "Jeez" starting to lose it). > >I lived in Italy for a few years and noticed that their swearing was >usually >either religious, or sacred/profane mixes, (e.g. porcodio -- "pig-god"). >They occasionally threw in "puttana" as somewhere in between (porca puttana >-- pig-whore) and it was considered really offensive. They had slang for >sexual/scatological bits and used them cheerfully as profanities, but they >had less power than the religious ones. And yes, they were all devout >catholics. > > > >-- >\Steve the Younger Swedish swearing is almost exclusively concerned with the netherworld, it's hells devils all the way. And while Sweden is one of the most irreligious countries in the world today, religion used to be very important (see the thirty years war). We also swear by the number seventeen, btw. :) "Sjutton ocks?" means "Seventeen also"... /mrtn From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jan 8 07:59:00 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:59:00 +0100 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051333i5fce0d49qd6cfd0b4873ec542@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C136C3.66@ecity.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > He has a soft spot for people who are loyal to him. Not so much with > > the everyone else. > > True, but I guess it's no wonder he didn't make it in the Jhereg, > long-term. The bosses--who are presumably the "archetypical" > Jhereg--are not very much like him. Far more cold-blooded, less touchy > about personal honor, willing as Sethra said to discuss a business > deal no matter how they were brought into it. I wonder what Dolivar > was like. Sethra knew Dolivar, though. Guess the question is whether she knew Vlad was a reincarnated Dolivar at that time or not. If she did know, and she still didn't expect Vlad to react like that [1], hm - any chance the Final Contract will have Dolivar/Vlad (re)admitted into the House of the Dragon? Karen [1] I'm assuming a Dragon would have reacted similarly. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 8 19:52:26 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:52:26 EST Subject: house art Message-ID: In a message dated 12/29/2005 5:51:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: Hi all, As promised here is the first wave of house art - Please let me know what you all think. If you have or know of other art that needs to be considered for this project let me know ASAP. Thanks, Rion Eek...I was just wondering why no one has replied from the dragaera list to your post...and I checked and your post did not get to the list. I bet it was because of the attachment. I do not think anyone got your email but me and the other person you sent it to. Sorry, it took so long for me to figure it out. I have Serenity on my mind. Here are my thoughts: Cool. Love them. Hope you are going to sell them online and not just at the International Burst Fan Summit http://www.opusfest.com May 19-21, 2006 Hyatt DTC, Denver, CO. Are these the ones Steve has approved? jhereg It is hard to think of jhereg as being so batlike. But if Steve approved. iorich has 4 legs. That is funny...because everyone thinks a jhereg has 4 legs. I like phoenix1 better than phoenix2. I like tsalmoth2 better than tsalmoth1. Sad No dragon No lyron No vallista No teckla NEED THE ORCA color one and the DZUR one. Maybe more. Thank Rion. From carpovita at earthlink.net Sun Jan 8 20:07:51 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 21:07:51 -0700 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have a dragon to send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the list before the next wave. Any ideas folks? -----Original Message----- From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com [mailto:FRIEDA2133 at aol.com] Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:52 PM To: carpovita at earthlink.net; katt_jean at sbcglobal.net; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: house art In a message dated 12/29/2005 5:51:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: Hi all, As promised here is the first wave of house art - Please let me know what you all think. If you have or know of other art that needs to be considered for this project let me know ASAP. Thanks, Rion Eek...I was just wondering why no one has replied from the dragaera list to your post...and I checked and your post did not get to the list. I bet it was because of the attachment. I do not think anyone got your email but me and the other person you sent it to. Sorry, it took so long for me to figure it out. I have Serenity on my mind. Here are my thoughts: Cool. Love them. Hope you are going to sell them online and not just at the International Burst Fan Summit http://www.opusfest.com May 19-21, 2006 Hyatt DTC, Denver, CO. Are these the ones Steve has approved? jhereg It is hard to think of jhereg as being so batlike. But if Steve approved. iorich has 4 legs. That is funny...because everyone thinks a jhereg has 4 legs. I like phoenix1 better than phoenix2. I like tsalmoth2 better than tsalmoth1. Sad No dragon No lyron No vallista No teckla NEED THE ORCA color one and the DZUR one. Maybe more. Thank Rion. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 8 20:18:02 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:18:02 EST Subject: house art Message-ID: <7e.7881c12e.30f33dfa@aol.com> In a message dated 1/8/2006 11:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have a dragon to send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the list before the next wave. Any ideas folks? If you email them to David Dyer-Bennet, I bet he could put them on a webpage like he did the Dragaeran Houses and then he could tell us where the art is. I think this is his email dd-b at dd-b.net David, what do you think? From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 23:29:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:29:39 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> References: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: On 1/8/06, Rion Bergquist wrote: > The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have a dragon to > send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the list before the > next wave. Any ideas folks? > Hm. Would it not be possible to put these images on the opusfest.com web server itself? That is, create a directory (for example, /dragaera-art-test , or whatever you choose), and place the files there, and simply post the URL of this location to the list? If, for whatever reason, that it not possible, well, if you send the images directly to myself or Jon Lincicum (whose e-mail is in the CC:), one of us will be easily able to upload these noble images to the Lyorn Records Wikicity, and can then send the URL out to the list, as described. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 23:42:35 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:42:35 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/06, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > International Burst Fan Summit http://www.opusfest.com May 19-21, 2006 > Hyatt DTC, Denver, CO. Copy and paste is usually your friend, but it can some times be a treacherous one. Exempli gratia: "Burst" A summit for burst fans would no doubt be a very, very messy event indeed. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 06:26:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:26:34 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/08/06 11:42 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: house art > A summit for burst fans would no doubt be a very, very messy event indeed. I dunno, at some cons it seems like most of the fans are about to "burst" out of their clothing. Note to Trekkies: Wearing a spandex Captain-Kirk shirt is only a good idea if you hit the gym once in a while. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060109/59a88ec5/attachment.html From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:26:09 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:26:09 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:47 AM Subject: Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? > In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:42:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, > howard at brazee.net writes: > And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? > IMO: In My Opinion > > When: Since Dolivar came to their attention and then died. > Or could have been even before Dolivar. > > How: Having Dolivar be reincarnated into each of the different houses. I > think Teckla would be after Dolivar to put fear into him. When done with the > 17 houses--Easterner. > > Dragon > Teckla > ... > Dzur > Tiassa > Easterner > > No proof...just my wild speculation that no one else seems to believe in. > Steve will show you one day! Or maybe not. Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would think that being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such insight into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various houses. IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ have are retained (Kieron) 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back as undead (Sethra) 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants (Purple Robes) or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the specific skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. (Vlad) So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. Jeff From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:47:03 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:47:03 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: > So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are > usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. It probably involves lots of food and klava. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:50:23 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:50:23 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maximilian Wilson" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:47 AM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: > So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are > usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. It probably involves lots of food and klava. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. By Verra's extra knuckles, I almost think that you are right!! Jeff From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 9 07:56:57 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:56:57 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <273f01c61535$51905020$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have > a dragon to > send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the > list before the > next wave. Any ideas folks? > There are any number of photo/art hosting sites available for free. Some will limit your bandwidth to keep costs down, and/or feature banner ads of various kinds. http://www.imagedump.com http://www.photobucket.com http://www.webshots.com If you have a yahoo email account, you also have a photos database that you can use to feature your pictures/art as well. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 07:57:46 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:57:46 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 07:47 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: >> So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are >> usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. > >It probably involves lots of food and klava. A more interesting question might be: Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their control, or will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they thought they desired?) Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her "tool", or will his plans come to be more important than hers? I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will of his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's one I find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's take on it. Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 9 08:25:30 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:25:30 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> I think he will become Verra's lover in order to produce the Kwisatz Haderach who will save Dragaera from the Jenoine... On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: >> So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but >> Steve's are >> usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. > > It probably involves lots of food and klava. > > Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > listinfo/dragaera From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 09:23:09 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:23:09 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Gorelick" To: "Maximilian Wilson" Cc: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:25 AM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) > I think he will become Verra's lover in order to produce the Kwisatz > Haderach who will save Dragaera from the Jenoine... > Is Vlad a killing word? I could see Taltos being one. . . Jeff -whose name is not a killing word, despite what my kids think. From scs at di.org Mon Jan 9 09:17:00 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:17:00 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> Message-ID: <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From goannaman at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 10:02:19 2006 From: goannaman at gmail.com (Jay Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:02:19 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > -- I respectfully disagree. I don't think the Easterners will ever find a place within the cycle, except as Teckla or Jhereg. On a related note, if an Easterner purchased a high enough title in the Jhereg, could they be considered a canidate for heir? From steve at romlin.com Mon Jan 9 10:12:51 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:12:51 +0100 Subject: Cool! Message-ID: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Steve Simmons > To: Kenneth Gorelick > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:17:00 -0500 > Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know > about Kragar?) > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. -- \Steve From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 10:22:27 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:22:27 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jay Smith Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 10:02 AM To Steve Simmons cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: >> >> Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the >> East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. >> -- > >I respectfully disagree. > >I don't think the Easterners will ever find a place within the cycle, except >as Teckla or Jhereg. I've always half expected Vlad to have a hand in undoing the cycle... Though the dating in the front matter of the Paarfi books suggests this hasn't happened by well into Norathar's reign, which should be well after Vlad's death, unless he somehow has an unusually long life. >On a related note, if an Easterner purchased a high enough title in the >Jhereg, could they be considered a canidate for heir? I've always gotten the impression that the Jhereg heir was just the one with so much money and power that no one else could touch him... Not so much a matter of "buying a high enough title" as it is a matter of having a title; then using assassination, fear, money, intimidation, and other nasty mafia-style tactics to rise to the top of the heap and stay there. (Given the difference in life-spans, it seems quite unlikely that any Easterner would have the time to overcome the power and resources of whichever Dragaeran happens to sit on top of the Jhereg Council at the moment... A man Vlad was even /less/ willing to consider taking out that the Empress herself, I might add.) Vlad is precocious, however, and a Great Weapon probably goes a long way. Who can say? Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 9 10:32:16 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:32:16 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > "tool", or > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > *opinion alert!* I think it's going a bit too far to say that Verra considers Vlad to be a "tool". I don't think he's a "tool" to her any more than Sticks or Glowbug would be a "tool" to Vlad. His relationship to Verra is not to far different from his relationship to Sethra, actually, except that Sethra has claim to a fair amount of friendship that Verra does not. The Lords of Judgement are a puzzle. None of them appear to be omniscient nor omnipresent, so the Dragaeran view of them may actually be more correct than the Eastern view. Most of them don't even know what phase the cycle is in without looking at it (though that may be an effect of the way time flows or doesn't flow in the Halls). Verra has said that she interferes in Vlad's life in order to "make him useful". She has certainly intervened in his favor and she's certainly been involved in putting him into situations where his skills were up to the task at hand. However, she's never left him without a choice. She's never said "you'll go do this thing and you'll smile while you do it". Faced with the unexpected prospect of an "employee" carrying a potentially lethal artifact, she didn't take it or force him to give it up or punish him or destroy him. She's even taken a certain amount of lip from him (up to a point). Of course, that's just the kind of god she is. She doesn't thrive on formality like some others might. In any case, I don't think Vlad is being "honed" for any particular purpose, at least not by Verra. She has a "personal" relationship with Vlad because chance or destiny have brought him into her circle of influence. Devera likes him. Her daughter likes him. Her "priest", Morollan, likes him. He's handy for jobs that her other "tools" couldn't neccesarily do. She has some affection for Easterners anyway, and I like to think that Noish-pa was probably a "devout" follower for however you measure "devout" in Fenario, so she might already have favored his family in some respect or other. (Sethra's affection for Vlad might be a strike against him considering how Verra appears to feel about Sethra.) The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't know what she's doing half the time. As Vlad discovers, the Gods are no better informed on many things than the mortal denizens of the world are. (See once again the references to the state of the cycle.) To be a "tool", Verra would have to have a plan and I don't think any of the Lords of Judgement have a plan. They have so far been purely reactive. The one case of Verra implementing a plan in _Phoenix_ went awry rather quickly... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 10:45:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:45:54 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 10:32 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >> Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her >> "tool", or >> will his plans come to be more important than hers? >> > >*opinion alert!* > >I think it's going a bit too far to say that Verra considers Vlad to be a >"tool". I don't think he's a "tool" to her any more than Sticks or Glowbug >would be a "tool" to Vlad. His relationship to Verra is not to far different >from his relationship to Sethra, actually, except that Sethra has claim to a >fair amount of friendship that Verra does not. You see, this is why I put "tool" in quotes... ;-) I just recently re-read /Issola/, and it's interesting to re-visit the part with Vlad/Teldra talking to Verra in her halls. "I refuse to allow you to be a useless boil on the hindquarters of the world." (or some such.) But there's also Sethra's comments at the end of the second chapter about how Vlad has always been "Happier being just used as a tool, and not given explanations, no matter how much you ask for them." That seems pretty appropriate to this discussion. >The Lords of Judgement are a puzzle. None of them appear to be omniscient >nor omnipresent, so the Dragaeran view of them may actually be more correct >than the Eastern view. Most of them don't even know what phase the cycle is >in without looking at it (though that may be an effect of the way time flows >or doesn't flow in the Halls). "More" correct perhaps. Verra has a good bit in /Taltos/ where she tries to describe the difference between the Eastern view and the Dragaeran view of the gods. The "I was never human, but if I had been, I wouldn't be know..." speech. >Verra has said that she interferes in Vlad's life in order to "make him >useful". She has certainly intervened in his favor and she's certainly been >involved in putting him into situations where his skills were up to the task >at hand. However, she's never left him without a choice. She's never said It seems (to me) that in sending him back to face the Jenoine in /Issola/ she doesn't give him much of a choice, but I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on your point, here. >probably a "devout" follower for however you measure "devout" in Fenario, so >she might already have favored his family in some respect or other. >(Sethra's affection for Vlad might be a strike against him considering how >Verra appears to feel about Sethra.) I think Verra/Sethra's disdain for each other comes across as a bit more of a friendly rivalry. Certainly, Verra is willing to work with her (re: the last attack by the Jenoine on the Lesser Sea) when the need arises. Verra may just be bitter because Sethra snubbed her when Sethra was offered godhood. >The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't >know what she's doing half the time. As Vlad discovers, the Gods are no >better informed on many things than the mortal denizens of the world are. >(See once again the references to the state of the cycle.) To be a "tool", >Verra would have to have a plan and I don't think any of the Lords of >Judgement have a plan. They have so far been purely reactive. The one case >of Verra implementing a plan in _Phoenix_ went awry rather quickly... I don't know if we really have enough information to go on here. Certainly, Verra is not "all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful" in the sense of the god figures of this world usually are. But lack of Omnipotence and Omnicscience doesn't mean that she's just totally making it up as she goes along. That's Vlad's specialty, after all. I guess you'd have to ask Trout. Majikjon From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 11:31:59 2006 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:31:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad Message-ID: <20060109193159.29377.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> A more interesting question might be: Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their control, or will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they thought they desired?) Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her "tool", or will his plans come to be more important than hers? I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will of his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's one I find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's take on it. Majikjon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wasn't Verra an example of a "tool that evolves to supercede the will of his masters"? Woudn't that be ironic? scott --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 9 11:32:31 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:32:31 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C2BA4F.6070602@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would think that >being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. >However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such insight >into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various houses. >IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: > > > > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. With the genetic element involved, I don't know what rights your children have. Could someone be a member of 17 houses? Is it advantageous to have a Phoenix coming from your house? Are there Dragaerans who are not members of any house? Yes - are there any on the mainland? What happens when someone is kicked out of the Teklas? From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 9 11:36:43 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:36:43 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C2BB4B.3080703@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >A more interesting question might be: > >Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their control, or >will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that >which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they >thought they desired?) > >Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her "tool", or >will his plans come to be more important than hers? > >I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will of >his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's one I >find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's >take on it. > >Majikjon > > It won't be an either-or. But if one faction ends up "winning", my bet is on the Serioli. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 9 11:41:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are > > usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. > > It probably involves lots of food and klava. I assumed that's what "burst" was about. From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 9 11:59:31 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:59:31 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060109193159.29377.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060109193159.29377.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Scott Kreitzer wrote: > A more interesting question might be: > > Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their > control, > or > will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that > which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they > thought they desired?) > > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > "tool", or > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > > I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will > of > his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's > one I > find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's > take on it. > > Majikjon > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------- > > Wasn't Verra an example of a "tool that evolves to supercede the > will > of his masters"? Woudn't that be ironic? > > scott > > How bout Verra turns Vlad into a demon--a god-like being that can be summoned at need? That, then is the meaning of the term "Demon Goddess"--that she is a goddess of demons... From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:19:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:19:39 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <20060109185106.12986.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060109185106.12986.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Sokerchick wrote: > > > > Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her > > completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her > > background. > > I think that it's totally believable that Vlad Trust Keira. Why... Because > when he first met her he was a teenage (? maybe younger ?) human. And she > was the first Drageraen that was kind to him and a guy had just been killed > in his fathers resturant. Then she helped him out taught him how to move > and be invisible when he wanted to. Why shouldn't he trust her implicitly? > > She was his first real friend as far as I can tell. His father wouldn't let > him associate with other humans and Drageraens wouldn't care if he was lying > dead in a gutter. Then she comes along and helps him shows kindness toward > him. That breed some serious trust and loyalty. Espically in a kid who is > looking for affection. > (sending this on to the list) Exactly. You have precisely expanded on my own thoughts on the matter. From scs at di.org Mon Jan 9 12:21:16 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:21:16 -0500 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:12:51PM +0100, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in three places at once. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:38:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:38:43 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > I just recently re-read /Issola/, and it's interesting to re-visit the > part with Vlad/Teldra talking to Verra in her halls. > > "I refuse to allow you to be a useless boil on the hindquarters of the > world." (or some such.) > > But there's also Sethra's comments at the end of the second chapter about > how Vlad has always been "Happier being just used as a tool, and not given > explanations, no matter how much you ask for them." That seems pretty > appropriate to this discussion. > Hm. And Kiera would have more knowledge of just how much Vlad has been used as a tool (by the Jhereg, for those various assassinations). And yet, I think Sethra's wrong, above. In fact, I think she has neglected to take into account that (a) people can change, and (b) Easterners, having shorter lives, when they do change, change much faster than the Dragaerans that she's more used to dealing with. And Vlad has definitely been changing in the past few years of his exile. And, really, he *wasn't* happy about being used as a tool without his knowledge. I was thinking about that chapter in /Issola/ as well, recently - Vlad is *very* pissy with Sethra, at the start there. Speculating about that scene, perhaps he felt a bit betrayed by someone he thought he could trust. That is, sitting in Dzur Mountain, as he had been those (relatively few) years before when he first met Sethra, it may have occurred to him that his button-man Quion might have been discovered to have been thinking of skipping out with a chunk of gold by Kiera, and that's how *that* particular manipulation was set up. So Vlad ranted at Sethra a bit when he remembered that/deduced that. Perhaps. Or, heck, maybe he figured that Kiera "conspired" with Quion on the embezzlement (with any reservations Quion might have had having been removed by Morrolan's idea-implantation). At any rate, definitely a reason to be pissy. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 12:43:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:43:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 12:38 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) >Hm. And Kiera would have more knowledge of just how much Vlad has >been used as a tool (by the Jhereg, for those various assassinations). > >And yet, I think Sethra's wrong, above. In fact, I think she has >neglected to take into account that (a) people can change, and (b) >Easterners, having shorter lives, when they do change, change much >faster than the Dragaerans that she's more used to dealing with. And >Vlad has definitely been changing in the past few years of his exile. >And, really, he *wasn't* happy about being used as a tool without his >knowledge. Well, as I believe someone else said recently, nobody's 100% consistent. This includes Vlad, Sethra, and SKZB. >I was thinking about that chapter in /Issola/ as well, recently - Vlad >is *very* pissy with Sethra, at the start there. Speculating about >that scene, perhaps he felt a bit betrayed by someone he thought he >could trust. That is, sitting in Dzur Mountain, as he had been those >(relatively few) years before when he first met Sethra, it may have >occurred to him that his button-man Quion might have been discovered >to have been thinking of skipping out with a chunk of gold by Kiera, >and that's how *that* particular manipulation was set up. So Vlad >ranted at Sethra a bit when he remembered that/deduced that. Perhaps. > Or, heck, maybe he figured that Kiera "conspired" with Quion on the >embezzlement (with any reservations Quion might have had having been >removed by Morrolan's idea-implantation). At any rate, definitely a >reason to be pissy. Never underestimate the power of the hissy-cow. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060109/4b5ac211/attachment.htm From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:49:05 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:49:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > I've always gotten the impression that the Jhereg heir was just the one > with so much money and power that no one else could touch him... Not so > much a matter of "buying a high enough title" as it is a matter of having > a title; then using assassination, fear, money, intimidation, and other > nasty mafia-style tactics to rise to the top of the heap and stay there. I think it's debateable. The Organization appears to be distinct from the aristocratic hierarchy. It could just as easily be that the Jhereg Heir is mostly a figurehead who is allowed to do whatever he wants, except with the restriction that the Jhereg Council is not made unhappy by what he does, and the Organization is thus able to do whatever it pleases, even when the Heir becomes the Emperor. In other words, the Jhereg aristocracy always defers to the Organization in matters pertaining to the Organization. But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. From scs at di.org Mon Jan 9 12:18:57 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060109201857.GA29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 10:32:16AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > > "tool", or > > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't > know what she's doing half the time . . . Verra has tasked Sethra with the problem. And IMnotsoHO Sethra has a plan. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:51:42 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:51:42 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2BA4F.6070602@brazee.net> References: <43C2BA4F.6070602@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. Who? Where? When? From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 9 13:16:44 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:16:44 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39d401c61561$fdea7590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >It seems (to me) that in sending him back to face the Jenoine in /Issola/ >she doesn't give him much of a choice, but I'd be interested in hearing you >elaborate on your point, here. I don't know that it's a question of choice in this case. There was never any question of Vlad going back. He'd gone to a fair amount of trouble to reach Morollan and Alieara in the first place. His visit with Verra happened as a way to both warn her and to get some advice on how to handle the situation. It wasn't an attempt to escape it. >Certainly, Verra is not "all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful" in the sense of >the god figures of this world usually are. But lack of Omnipotence and Omnicscience >doesn't mean that she's just totally making it up as she goes along. That's Vlad's >specialty, after all. In Verra's case, she's influenced by her Aspect as the goddess of, hmm, "arbitrariness" or "capriciousness" isn't right but I don't remember exactly how Teldra characterized her. In any case, her basic nature would be "chaotic" compared to most of the Lords we've been introduced to. Her strength is that she acts when others are paralyzed by their indecision and formality. Her weakness is that her actions are seldom as well-formulated as they should be and can appear to the uninitiated as being entirely random or even malicious. I imagine that she's pretty much always making it up as she goes along. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 13:17:59 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:17:59 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) References: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060109201857.GA29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Scott Schultz" Cc: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) > On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 10:32:16AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > > > "tool", or > > > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > > > The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't > > know what she's doing half the time . . . > > Verra has tasked Sethra with the problem. And IMnotsoHO Sethra has a > plan. > -- > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." > -- Albert Einstein Well, she has a way. That's as good as a plan, isn't it? Jeff -had a plan, but it didn't survive contact. Currently making due with force of will. From tsarren at alyra.org Mon Jan 9 13:26:09 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:26:09 -0600 Subject: OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 08:26:09AM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would think that > being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. > However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such insight > into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various houses. > IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: > > 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ have are > retained (Kieron) > > 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back as undead > (Sethra) > > 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants (Purple Robes) > or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. > > 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the specific > skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. (Vlad) Is it just me or should those sentences open with "Those who" instead of "Those that", since the subjects are people? There should be a grammar fiend or three on this list who would know. Kat From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 13:35:45 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:35:45 -0700 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > three places at once. ??? -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 13:39:27 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:39:27 -0700 Subject: Cool! References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Steve Rapaport" Cc: Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Cool! > On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:12:51PM +0100, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > > > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. > > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > three places at once. > -- > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." > -- Albert Einstein Or a Demon, at any rate. We shall see. . . . Jeff -has never been more than one place at a time without the assistance of alcohol. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 13:40:11 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:40:11 -0800 Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:35 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Cool! >On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: >> Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know >> Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in >> three places at once. > >??? Well, I think he's referring to the second escape attempt from the Jenoine's place. Vlad ends up experiencing three separate experiences simultaneously, which is confusing to read until you break each bit up and read every third one as a separate thread. I would contend that this doesn't so much give Vlad the ability to be three places at once, so much as it shows how many "Places" the Jenoine have (by their own conception of "place") all within the same phsyical location (as WE se "place"). At least, that's what I thought SKZB was going for. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 9 13:41:09 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest > Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is > synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. Zerika's comments to Vlad lead me to believe the above. What role the Left Hand plays here strikes me as unclear, perhaps unplausibly so. From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 9 13:50:47 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:50:47 -0500 Subject: OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> References: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> Message-ID: <3BD42EA1-7D10-451C-876A-FA8E22CC2A32@mac.com> On Jan 9, 2006, at 4:26 PM, Tsarren wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 08:26:09AM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would >> think that >> being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. >> However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such >> insight >> into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various >> houses. >> IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: >> >> 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ >> have are >> retained (Kieron) >> >> 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back >> as undead >> (Sethra) >> >> 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants >> (Purple Robes) >> or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. >> >> 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the >> specific >> skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. >> (Vlad) > > Is it just me or should those sentences open with "Those who" > instead of > "Those that", since the subjects are people? There should be a > grammar > fiend or three on this list who would know. > > Kat Paging Dr. Whom! Paging Dr. Whom! When the pronoun is no object! From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 14:17:06 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:17:06 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:41 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest >> Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is >> synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. > >Zerika's comments to Vlad lead me to believe the above. What role >the Left Hand plays here strikes me as unclear, perhaps unplausibly so. Paarfi talks at one point (In TPG, I think) about how the Jhereg take over the Orb due to the rule of the Vallista applying the taxation laws more rigourously than the other houses (presumably to pay for all their building projects) which allows the Jhereg to become rich, and then use their own power and influence to put their own candidate on the throne. Whether this Emperor candidate is the same individual as the Head of the Council, I would say, depends on whether the Head of the Council happens to be the type of person who likes to take personal control of things, or is the type who likes to rule from behind the scenes. (As Prime Minister, maybe, or even Discreet). I would imagine that Davdi's probably correct, there likely have been both types during different cycles. And the leader of the Left Hand becomes Court Wizard, of course. Probably drives the Athyra of the period absolutely nuts. Majikjon From rone at ennui.org Mon Jan 9 14:55:03 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:55:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. Who? Where? When? I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly "citizenship". rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From rone at ennui.org Mon Jan 9 14:56:41 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060109225641.8051A6848C@boredom.ennui.org> Maximilian Wilson writes: On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > three places at once. ??? The bit where Vlad starts to go through the gate but it goes all bonkers. There's three points of view in that somewhat confusing sequence, after which Vlad can see things differently in the room. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:08:01 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:08:01 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > And the leader of the Left Hand becomes Court Wizard, of course. Probably > drives the Athyra of the period absolutely nuts. > Good point. Another possibility that occurred to me was the the leader of the Left Hand might become Consort. Very much a marriage of convenience, that. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:11:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:11:02 -0800 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <20060109225641.8051A6848C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> <20060109225641.8051A6848C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, rone wrote: > Maximilian Wilson writes: > On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > > three places at once. > ??? > > The bit where Vlad starts to go through the gate but it goes all > bonkers. There's three points of view in that somewhat confusing > sequence, after which Vlad can see things differently in the room. > And, after checking with "search inside" and booksearch, I can confidently report that the scene is in chapter 9, and begins with "I took a step forward". From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:14:52 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:14:52 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, rone wrote: > Davdi Silverrock writes: > On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > >> Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. > >Who? Where? When? > > I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly > "citizenship". > Well, I nearly think I agree with you in that. Another example: Kytraan e'Lanya wore Phoenix livery (at the beginning of tPotD, which I just re-read that section of recently), but that doesn't make him Dragon/Phoenix. From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Jan 9 14:20:41 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:20:41 -0500 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060109171941.0255ffc0@cox.net> At 03:21 PM 1/9/2006, Steve Simmons wrote: >On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:12:51PM +0100, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > > > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. > >Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know >Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in >three places at once. That one one of the coolest pieces of writing I have read. I had to re=read it several times before I caught on. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:02:18 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:02:18 -0800 Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That would actually be cool- Vlad becoming a god without knowing it. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >To: Maximilian Wilson >CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info,Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) >Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:40:11 -0800 > >Maximilian Wilson >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >01/09/06 01:35 PM > >To >Dragaera List >cc > >Subject >Re: Cool! > > > > > > > >On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > >> Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > >> Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > >> three places at once. > > > >??? > >Well, I think he's referring to the second escape attempt from the >Jenoine's place. > >Vlad ends up experiencing three separate experiences simultaneously, which >is confusing to read until you break each bit up and read every third one >as a separate thread. > >I would contend that this doesn't so much give Vlad the ability to be >three places at once, so much as it shows how many "Places" the Jenoine >have (by their own conception of "place") all within the same phsyical >location (as WE se "place"). > >At least, that's what I thought SKZB was going for. > >Majikjon From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jan 9 09:11:00 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:11:00 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Jay Smith wrote: > > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > > -- > > I respectfully disagree. > > I don't think the Easterners will ever find a place within the cycle, except > as Teckla or Jhereg. Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a Dragaeran? And Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the history of Zerika I. Anyway, if it is being an Easterner and knowing that creating Chaos is possible, it didn't seem to require anything more from Vlad, other than being desperate enough to try. If this theory is correct, well, I can see some reasons for the Dragaerans to decide it might be better to co-opt the Easterners by at least placing them under the authority of the Cycle, then letting them be outside it and subject to random persecution and maybe sometimes feeling they didn't have anything else to lose....... ;) Possibly related - does anyone else get the feeling that Dragaeran society doesn't really seem to fit a belief that they can tell who a reincarnated soul once was in a previous life? Like, if that's the case, why was Norathar picked as Dragon Heir because she was an e'Lanya, rather than because she was the reincarnation of the last Dragon Empress? Similarly, why was Aliera Dragon Heir because of her Dad, rather than because she was the sister of Kieron the Conqueror and Kieron hadn't shown up yet? Maybe that's the reason I've always wondered if Aliera or Sethra hit Vlad with a gullibility spell when they told him that he once was Dolivar, and Dragaerans really can't tell who someone was in a previous life, they just know that reincarnation happens. In which case, creating raw Chaos might definitely be related to being an Easterner. (BTW - does anyone know of any textevd that 'souls' have to be reincarnated in the body of one of their line? If not, the LoJ really should have taken advantage of that and reincarnated some of their more able souls into the body of an e'Kieron to get that ability in future versions). Karen From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 9 16:10:59 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:10:59 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> rone wrote: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. > Who? Where? When? > >I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >"citizenship". > >rone > > I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and Krager. Was I mistaken? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 9 16:27:49 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, James Griffin wrote: > That would actually be cool- Vlad becoming a god without knowing it. Vespasian on his deathbed: "Alas, I think I'm becoming a god" (vae puto deus fio). From rone at ennui.org Mon Jan 9 16:45:44 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:45:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060110004544.69B8D685E6@boredom.ennui.org> Howard Brazee writes: rone wrote: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. > Who? Where? When? >I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >"citizenship". I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and Krager. Was I mistaken? That was no Teckla, and neither is Kragar. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:53:35 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:53:35 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601091653h5d5d602k986ef64a810736e9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and > Krager. Was I mistaken? Are you conflating "Teckla" with "cross-breed" or "Houseless"? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 9 16:55:13 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:55:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43C305F1.1000508@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > rone wrote: > >> Davdi Silverrock writes: >> On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. >> > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. >> Who? Where? When? >> >> I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >> "citizenship". >> >> rone >> >> > I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and > Krager. Was I mistaken? Mellar: A half-breed with Jhereg on one side and Dzur/Dragon on the other. Kragar: A full-breed Dragon (so far as we know, see Davdi's theory about how he might be a crossbreed) who was kicked out of the house. At no point did either of these have "dual" citizenship. Mellar wasn't allowed to join any of the houses of his ancestry (except the Jhereg) due to the fact of his mutt genetics, and Kragar was kicked out of the Dragons (he says) for incompetence, meaning he had to join the Jhereg, or be *without* a house at all. I suppose the only person who might count for "dual" citizenship is Sethra Lavode, (Dragon/Dzur) but nobody is really sure what house she comes from, originally, and she doesn't even get invited to parties (except Morrolan's). And besides, Sethra is the exception for just about any and every rule you can think of. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 9 17:05:24 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:05:24 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43C30854.3040101@comcast.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Possibly related - does anyone else get the feeling that Dragaeran >society doesn't really seem to fit a belief that they can tell who a >reincarnated soul once was in a previous life? Like, if that's the >case, why was Norathar picked as Dragon Heir because she was an e'Lanya, >rather than because she was the reincarnation of the last Dragon >Empress? Similarly, why was Aliera Dragon Heir because of her Dad, >rather than because she was the sister of Kieron the Conqueror and >Kieron hadn't shown up yet? Maybe that's the reason I've always >wondered if Aliera or Sethra hit Vlad with a gullibility spell when they >told him that he once was Dolivar, and Dragaerans really can't tell who >someone was in a previous life, they just know that reincarnation >happens. In which case, creating raw Chaos might definitely be related >to being an Easterner. > >(BTW - does anyone know of any textevd that 'souls' have to be >reincarnated in the body of one of their line? If not, the LoJ really >should have taken advantage of that and reincarnated some of their more >able souls into the body of an e'Kieron to get that ability in future >versions). > I think it would help to remember that Vlad hangs out with some exceptional people. Aliera telling Vlad he's a reincarnation of someone else's soul (as accurate as that assesment may be) doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that most other Dragaerans would be likely to buy. Aliera and Sethra believe it, but in the world of Dragaera, it's difficult to get any more atypical than Sethra and Aliera. Certainly the concept of the soul, reincarnation and the undead are matter of mechanics to Sethra, The Necromancer, Aliera, and other uber-powerful folks, but they get little more than lip service from most other nobles. (And lets not even begin to talk about all the superstitious Teckla beliefs). Besides, like most political bodies, the Houses go with what keeps people currently alive happy, and don't give much consideration to what some long-dead soul might have to say about things. Majikjon From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Jan 9 17:13:27 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:13:27 -0500 Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) Message-ID: <2ED41323.54FF7508.00048EA6@aol.com> "James Griffin" writes: > That would actually be cool- Vlad becoming a god without knowing it. That's happening to some characters in Steven Erikson's Malazan series. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 20:08:04 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <3BD42EA1-7D10-451C-876A-FA8E22CC2A32@mac.com> Message-ID: <20060110040804.34665.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's a lot of fussing around about this. To me those "those that"s sound awfully awkward. I'd much prefer "those who". Dr. Whom __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 00:25:38 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:25:38 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee wrote: >CC: SKZB List >Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know >about Kragar?) >Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:10:59 -0700 > >rone wrote: > >>Davdi Silverrock writes: >> On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. >> > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. >> Who? Where? When? >> >>I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >>"citizenship". >> rone >> >> >I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and >Krager. Was I mistaken? > That's not dual, that's one after the other. BTW, I don't think there's any risk in spoiling _Jhereg_, the first book in the series, published 23 years ago. ;) /mrtn From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 06:46:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:46:16 -0800 Subject: OT: grammar In-Reply-To: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> Message-ID: Tsarren Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:26 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) > >On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 08:26:09AM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ have are >> retained (Kieron) >> >> 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back as undead >> (Sethra) >> >> 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants (Purple Robes) >> or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. >> >> 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the specific >> skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. (Vlad) > >Is it just me or should those sentences open with "Those who" instead of >"Those that", since the subjects are people? There should be a grammar >fiend or three on this list who would know. Given the nature of some of the gods (Ordwynac is a flaming stick, for crying out loud) "Those That" may, in fact, be more correct in many cases. Presumably, the gods started out as souls to be judged, themselves. (If not from Dragaera, then from somewhere else.) Nyssa is a formless cloud, Barlen and Tri'nagore are scaly monsters of some sort, and this doesn't even include the one who's a hyper-intelligent shade of the color blue. Majikjon (Gotta love those subtle HHG references.) From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 07:28:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:28:42 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <39d401c61561$fdea7590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:16 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) >I don't know that it's a question of choice in this case. There was never >any question of Vlad going back. He'd gone to a fair amount of trouble to >reach Morollan and Alieara in the first place. His visit with Verra happened >as a way to both warn her and to get some advice on how to handle the >situation. It wasn't an attempt to escape it. Exactly. Vlad didn't really have a choice, because choosing to just abandon his friends ran contrary to who he was as a person. He could no more choose to do that than he could choose to have blonde hair, or a charming personality. But I think he *was* maybe expecting a little more help from his goddess. Vlad: "What's our secret weapon?" Verra: "Your ability to improvise." Vlad: "You're joking." Verra: "Nope." Sounds like he's being used as a tool to me... But perhaps not especially unwillingly. Verra was, after all, hoping he could rescue his friends, which is certainly something he wanted to have happen. He just didn't have as much confidence in his abilities as Verra did. Of course, Verra knowing what Spellbreaker was, and what it was likely to become in the near-future, may have had something to do with this. >In Verra's case, she's influenced by her Aspect as the goddess of, hmm, >"arbitrariness" or "capriciousness" isn't right but I don't remember exactly >how Teldra characterized her. In any case, her basic nature would be >"chaotic" compared to most of the Lords we've been introduced to. Her >strength is that she acts when others are paralyzed by their indecision and >formality. Her weakness is that her actions are seldom as well-formulated as >they should be and can appear to the uninitiated as being entirely random or >even malicious. I imagine that she's pretty much always making it up as she >goes along. She likes getting her own way, and doing things the way she wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't thought things through and considered repercussions. I think I like the idea that she's simply delegated many of these problems to Sethra. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 10 07:34:55 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:34:55 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Message-ID: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw > Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a > Dragaeran? And > Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the > history of Zerika I. Vlad is not the first Easterner to learn sorcery. He's surely not the first to learn of Elder Sorcery. If manipulating amorphia is an innate ability of Easterners, I'd think that would be common knowledge and that the place of Easterners in Dragaeran society would be quite a bit different than it currently is. > > Anyway, if it is being an Easterner and knowing that creating Chaos is > possible, it didn't seem to require anything more from Vlad, > other than > being desperate enough to try. Don't confuse Dragaeran "genetics" with 21st century Terran genetics. Whatever science it is that Aliera practices, it involves sorcery and likely is only superficially the same as our brand of genetics. The ability to create amorphia from nothing or from existing matter is tied to the soul rather than the body as illustrated by Vlad, so "genetics" as we think about it doesn't really apply. > > Possibly related - does anyone else get the feeling that Dragaeran > society doesn't really seem to fit a belief that they can tell who a > reincarnated soul once was in a previous life? Like, if that's the > case, why was Norathar picked as Dragon Heir because she was > an e'Lanya, > rather than because she was the reincarnation of the last Dragon > Empress? The thing about reincarnation is that it's a new start in life. Having a history doesn't change who you are now. Even if you have an especially adept and powerful mentor like Sethra to lead you in a past-life regression, doing so doesn't somehow transform you back into that person that you used to be. It just gives you some insight into your soul's history and maybe some pointers on what mistakes to avoid this time around. Never mind the legal morass of souls moving around through different Houses in each life. > > (BTW - does anyone know of any textevd that 'souls' have to be > reincarnated in the body of one of their line? Given Vlad's situation, I'd say way have textev that they don't. >If not, the LoJ really > should have taken advantage of that and reincarnated some of > their more > able souls into the body of an e'Kieron to get that ability in future > versions). Here again, the abilty to create amorphia is something the soul has or doesn't have. Getting reincarnated into an E'Lanya wouldn't modify the soul into one that has the ability, I wouldn't think. Rather, the soul would have to be "newly minted" and on its first trip the the cycle of reincarnation. That probably means that there aren't many such souls born nowadays. Frankly, if I was one of the Lords of Judgement I'd want it that way. Over and over again, people who mess with amorphia directly (primarily by Elder Sorcery) seem to just screw up the works for everyone else. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 07:43:24 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:43:24 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Message-ID: K Kuhn Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 09:11 AM Please respond to kknolte at ecity.net To Jay Smith cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw >Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a Dragaeran? And >Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the >history of Zerika I. This seems quite unlikely, since: a) It means everything we've been told about chaos and the ability to control it is incorrect (or at least woefully incomplete). b) It doesn't explain how Aliera is able to use Elder Sorcery c) It doesn't explain why no other Easterners besides Vlad have ever been seen to use Elder Sorcery d) You'd think that if all Easterners could use Elder Sorcery, the Empire and the Orb wouldn't present much of a threat to the East. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 07:51:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:51:26 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 07:34 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >Vlad is not the first Easterner to learn sorcery. He's surely not the first >to learn of Elder Sorcery. If manipulating amorphia is an innate ability of I'm not sure this follows. How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at hand who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. >The thing about reincarnation is that it's a new start in life. Having a >history doesn't change who you are now. Even if you have an especially adept >and powerful mentor like Sethra to lead you in a past-life regression, doing >so doesn't somehow transform you back into that person that you used to be. >It just gives you some insight into your soul's history and maybe some >pointers on what mistakes to avoid this time around. Never mind the legal >morass of souls moving around through different Houses in each life. That's profound, man. It's one of those stickier points to reincarnation that has always bugged me about the concept. >Here again, the abilty to create amorphia is something the soul has or >doesn't have. Getting reincarnated into an E'Lanya wouldn't modify the soul >into one that has the ability, I wouldn't think. Rather, the soul would have >to be "newly minted" and on its first trip the the cycle of reincarnation. >That probably means that there aren't many such souls born nowadays. >Frankly, if I was one of the Lords of Judgement I'd want it that way. Over >and over again, people who mess with amorphia directly (primarily by Elder >Sorcery) seem to just screw up the works for everyone else. I can't think of many e'Kierons left to mint the souls, in fact. Aliera is about it. (Which means Devera, obviously, can use the Elder Sorcery, not that she seems to need this ability.) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 10 08:26:38 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:26:38 -0800 Subject: Speculation about the Lords of Judgement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4f0601c61602$a1fb8980$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Given the nature of some of the gods (Ordwynac is a flaming > stick, for > crying out loud) "Those That" may, in fact, be more correct > in many cases. > Presumably, the gods started out as souls to be judged, > themselves. (If > not from Dragaera, then from somewhere else.) > *opinion alert* I've always assumed that the "gods" as we think of them didn't exist before the Revolt that created the Greater Sea of Chaos. The survivors that became uplifted ("Where were you when the Event happened?" "In Cleveland. Wasn't everybody?") organized and created the Paths, the Halls, and the Empire afterwards as wards against further incursions by the Jenoine. Prior to that, there wasn't anyone around to do the judging and quite possibly no cycle of reincarnation either. As for the forms taken by the Lords of Judgement, it's difficult to say what those represent. Some, like Verra, Kelchor and probably Barlan, represent their original physical forms. Others, like Nyssa and Ordwynac, seem more like representations of their Aspect. Perhaps the true difference between a God and a Demon is that a demon doesn't have an Aspect and is therefore a free agent providing he or she isn't summoned and bound by sorcery. A God is bound to its Aspect, essentially. The god is "free" in the sense that it cannot be bound by a sorceror against its will, but it is constrained in turn by difficulty or inability to conceptualize and behave in contradiction of its Aspect. This would also explain how one could study or train to become a God. A sufficently advanced wizard could presumably perform the operation upon himself even without the help of any of the Lords of Judgement, leading to the current attitudes of the Dragaerans vis-a-vis the Gods being worthy of some respect but not neccesarily reverence or worship. It seems likely that most of the original Lords of Judgement were "demons" in the sense that they had been summoned from another dimension and bound to the service of the Jenoine before or shortly after the Jenoine arrived in Dragaera. This sort of speculation essentially implies that the "angels" of the Revolt, upon seeing their changed situation, voluntarily assumed their various Aspects as protection against being summoned and bound by the Jenoine once again. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 08:25:07 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:25:07 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I'm not sure this follows. > > How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an > Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner > become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at hand > who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? > > Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder > Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. But nobody needed to teach Vlad how to use amorphia. He just did it, under stress. Aliera was needed only to stop him from destroying Adrilankha in the process. So the existence of Vlad's powerful friends makes it not more but less likely that Vlad's Elder Sorcery adventures will get into the history books. (And I thought we were _refuting_ the hypothesis that it was an innate ability of Easterners and not just e'Kierons to use amorphia.) The only thing required in Vlad's first instance were a link to the Orb and a suitable desperation. The only point in favor of this hypothesis is that Easterners with links to the Orb may be a relatively new (post-Interrugnum) thing. Then again, there's that Easterner that Khaavren mistook for an Athyra... Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jan 10 08:27:49 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:27:49 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AD16DB-B6BD-4291-926A-5B15956177E3@mac.com> On Jan 10, 2006, at 10:43 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > K Kuhn > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/09/06 09:11 AM > Please respond to > kknolte at ecity.net > > > To > Jay Smith > cc > Dragaera List > Subject > Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about > Kragar?) > > > > >> Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw >> Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a >> Dragaeran? And >> Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the >> history of Zerika I. > > This seems quite unlikely, since: > > a) It means everything we've been told about chaos and the ability to > control it is incorrect (or at least woefully incomplete). > b) It doesn't explain how Aliera is able to use Elder Sorcery > c) It doesn't explain why no other Easterners besides Vlad have > ever been > seen to use Elder Sorcery > d) You'd think that if all Easterners could use Elder Sorcery, the > Empire > and the Orb wouldn't present much of a threat to the East. > > Majikjon > listinfo/dragaera I think you are mistaking elder sorcery with the ability to "create" amorphia. It seems that anyone who is willing can use elder sorcery-- it was the only flavor available during the interregnum, and was used by Sethra, Tazendra and Grita, among others. The ability to CREATE amorphia appears to rest with the heirs of Kieron--to wit, Aliera and Vlad but not Morrolon. Verra seems to have the power to channel and control amorphia, as does Aliera. Vlad can be trained to do so. But these talents are different from the ability to use amorphia for spellcasting...unless there is something we don't know about the ancestry of Tazendra and Grita (I grant we don't know anything about Sethra's ancestors... Ken From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 08:41:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:41:12 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 08:25 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> I'm not sure this follows. >> >> How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an >> Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner >> become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at hand >> who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? >> >> Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder >> Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. > >But nobody needed to teach Vlad how to use amorphia. He just did it, >under stress. Aliera was needed only to stop him from destroying >Adrilankha in the process. So the existence of Vlad's powerful friends >makes it not more but less likely that Vlad's Elder Sorcery adventures >will get into the history books. (And I thought we were _refuting_ the That's why I said "...friends close at hand who can teach him to use those abilities /without destroying himself/..." How likely is it that Vlad's name will get into the history books if the city he's living in had erupted into a 3rd Sea of Amorphia? Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have known it was Vlad? >hypothesis that it was an innate ability of Easterners and not just >e'Kierons to use amorphia.) The only thing required in Vlad's first >instance were a link to the Orb and a suitable desperation. The only >point in favor of this hypothesis is that Easterners with links to the >Orb may be a relatively new (post-Interrugnum) thing. Then again, >there's that Easterner that Khaavren mistook for an Athyra... Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had that little talk with Aliera. And I have my suspicions about how easy it seemed to be for him to tap into that ability. Might have been Verra at work, there, maybe? Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 10 08:49:26 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:49:26 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4f3e01c61605$d1137a40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an Easterner? I'm sure that Vlad is the first and only. However, Karen was speculating that the ability was not tied to the soul at all but to the genetics of Easterners. She was wondering whether Vlad was, in fact, being duped by Aliera and Sethra. I don't believe this is the case. >Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder Sorcery. >Seems likely, in fact. Anyone can practice Elder Sorcery, though I'd agree that Vlad is probably the first Easterner to make much of an attempt at it. The E'Kieron ability is the ability to create it from nothing at all (or from existing matter) and with training to manipulate it rather more easily than the average sorceror. Morollan practices a certain amount of Elder Sorcery and Grita taught herself by "coming to an accomodation" with the Lesser Sea. She implied that anyone with the patience, skill, and daring could do the same thing. Indeed, the Jenoine themselves were eventually able to link to it and harness it so the ability to do so must not be strictly an E'Kieron ability. I'd speculate that the E'Kieron line was, in fact, the crowning glory of the Jenoine scientists and the ultimate goal of their research program. That is, the creation of a slave race that could summon and control amorphia at the behest of their masters. The birth of Kieron and his siblings (or possibly their ancestors a few generations removed) may have been the event that triggered the Revolt as a "now or never" kind of thing. >I can't think of many e'Kierons left to mint the souls, in fact. Aliera is about it. >(Which means Devera, obviously, can use the Elder Sorcery, not that she seems to need >this ability.) If they were all in Dragaera City when the Disaster struck then that might well be the case. Perhaps Verra's liaison with Adron, aside from being pleasurable, was ultimately another one of those "feelings" of hers that turned out to be right in the sense that it preserved the line from destruction. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 08:50:21 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:50:21 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <54AD16DB-B6BD-4291-926A-5B15956177E3@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick 01/10/06 08:27 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >I think you are mistaking elder sorcery with the ability to "create" >amorphia. It seems that anyone who is willing can use elder sorcery-- >it was the only flavor available during the interregnum, and was used >by Sethra, Tazendra and Grita, among others. The ability to CREATE >amorphia appears to rest with the heirs of Kieron--to wit, Aliera and >Vlad but not Morrolon. Verra seems to have the power to channel and >control amorphia, as does Aliera. Vlad can be trained to do so. But >these talents are different from the ability to use amorphia for >spellcasting...unless there is something we don't know about the >ancestry of Tazendra and Grita (I grant we don't know anything about >Sethra's ancestors... Okay, this subject came up when we were trying to define "Elder Sorcery" in the wikicity. "Elder Sorcery" is used somewhat interchangably in the texts to refer both to the ability to create and control Amorphia directly using the power of the mind (as Vlad does in /Jhereg/, then again later in /Issola/) and in the use of Chaos stones to channel a flow of amorphia (As used by Adron in FHYA). It should be noted that Chaos stones were invented in the ninth cycle, then banned by Cuorfor II in the eleventh cycle after being used effectively in battle by Dragon soliders. So for nine cycles (about 150,000 years) the first sort of "Elder Sorcery" was all there was. (Which had been banned at the beginning of the Empire.) As to the abilities of Grita, Tazendra et al. to use Elder Sorcery despite not being e'Kierons, well, I can see two possibilities; this is Elder Sorcery of the second sort (Both Grita and Tazendra use staves, maybe these are laced with Chaos stones?), or else maybe the e'Kieron line is the only group of *Dragons* that can use this ability, but this last supposition is not supported by the textev that we have so far. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 08:54:39 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:54:39 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have > known it was Vlad? But since the event isn't remembered, it apparently didn't happen, whether caused by an Easterner or someone else. (And yes, depending on how fast Vlad's little trick had spread, someone might have known it was Vlad. Partly it hinges on whether teleportation is really as new a trick as Paarfi says it is. Certainly there were witnesses, whose memories are accessible through the Orb.) Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had > that little talk with Aliera. Now, this point I may have to concede. Actually I don't remember the sequence of events from "Jarhead" very well. Was he thinking about the Dolivar thing particularly, or just that Elder Sorcery were possible? Scott pointed out that Vlad is certainly not the first to learn of Elder Sorcery. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 10 10:22:34 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:22:34 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C3FB6A.8020602@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >"Elder Sorcery" is used somewhat interchangably in the texts to refer both >to the ability to create and control Amorphia directly using the power of >the mind (as Vlad does in /Jhereg/, then again later in /Issola/) and in >the use of Chaos stones to channel a flow of amorphia (As used by Adron in >FHYA). > > > I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 09:19:38 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:19:38 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) References: Message-ID: > > >On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> I'm not sure this follows. > >> > >> How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an > >> Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner > >> become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at > hand > >> who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? > >> > >> Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned > Elder > >> Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. > > > >But nobody needed to teach Vlad how to use amorphia. He just did it, > >under stress. Aliera was needed only to stop him from destroying > >Adrilankha in the process. So the existence of Vlad's powerful friends > >makes it not more but less likely that Vlad's Elder Sorcery adventures > >will get into the history books. (And I thought we were _refuting_ the > > That's why I said "...friends close at hand who can teach him to use those > abilities /without destroying himself/..." > > How likely is it that Vlad's name will get into the history books if the > city he's living in had erupted into a 3rd Sea of Amorphia? > > Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have > known it was Vlad? > > >hypothesis that it was an innate ability of Easterners and not just > >e'Kierons to use amorphia.) The only thing required in Vlad's first > >instance were a link to the Orb and a suitable desperation. The only > >point in favor of this hypothesis is that Easterners with links to the > >Orb may be a relatively new (post-Interrugnum) thing. Then again, > >there's that Easterner that Khaavren mistook for an Athyra... > > Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had > that little talk with Aliera. > > And I have my suspicions about how easy it seemed to be for him to tap > into that ability. Might have been Verra at work, there, maybe? > > Majikjon I think you are missing something. Remember the discussion with Aliera. Elder Sorcery is the direct manipulation of amorphia. Anyone (with sufficient skill) can learn to do that. That is what Morrolan does, and what Adron was doing to try take possession of the orb. Creation of amorphia is the aspect that is linked to the E'Kieron line, and that is what Vlad did in the restaurant. Vlad does not actually use Elder Sorcery until Issola, at the stream and again shortly afterwards. Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created if Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia the result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by his spell when it turned against him? Jeff -Prefers emeralds to purple stones. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 10 09:19:43 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Note that it seems likely to me that any amorphia generation by an Easterner would likely result in a trip by any witness to an oubliette at best. That Vlad wasn't disappeared now strikes me as surprising - perhaps Aliera was able to argue that his soul is a sufficient excuse for the event and either the truth (doubtful) or some reasonable lie (also doubtful) was told to the Left Hand witnesses, probably along with a threat should anyone gossip. From scs at di.org Tue Jan 10 18:09:42 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:09:42 -0500 Subject: Cool! - Issola Spoiler, but minor In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060111020942.GB1100@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 02:35:45PM -0700, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > > three places at once. > ??? See Issola, top of page 141 in the hardback. Begin with the line "I took a step forward--" and read every third line until you reach a line that ends in a period. Return to the top of 141, begin with the line *following* "I took a step forward" and read every third line as before. Read this way, the sequence clearly shows Vlad taking three pathways simultaneously. It's neatly put together so the casual reader thinks its another Brustian homage to Zelazny's shadow walks, so it's easy enough to miss. And note also that this occurs in the book where they take great pains to tell you what the qualifying feature of gods is. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:05:34 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:05:34 -0700 Subject: Cool! - Issola Spoiler, but minor In-Reply-To: <20060111020942.GB1100@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> <20060111020942.GB1100@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601102105r1c0317f8m7b57a29a66bc3e7d@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > See Issola, top of page 141 in the hardback. Begin with the line "I took > a step forward--" and read every third line until you reach a line that > ends in a period. Return to the top of 141, begin with the line > *following* "I took a step forward" and read every third line as before. > Read this way, the sequence clearly shows Vlad taking three pathways > simultaneously. It's neatly put together so the casual reader thinks > its another Brustian homage to Zelazny's shadow walks, so it's easy > enough to miss. And note also that this occurs in the book where they > take great pains to tell you what the qualifying feature of gods is. Thanks. I had in fact noticed that the multiple viewpoints made several distinct narratives, but it had never occurred to me that it might represent being in three places at once. And yes, it did remind me of Zelazny's shadow walks, now that you mention it, which may be why I didn't try too hard to process it mentally. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 06:12:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:12:26 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 09:19 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Note that it seems likely to me that any amorphia generation by an >Easterner would likely result in a trip by any witness to an oubliette >at best. That Vlad wasn't disappeared now strikes me as surprising - >perhaps Aliera was able to argue that his soul is a sufficient excuse >for the event and either the truth (doubtful) or some reasonable lie >(also doubtful) was told to the Left Hand witnesses, probably along with >a threat should anyone gossip. This assumes quite a few things... #1) That anyone in that room (other than Vlad and Aliera) had a clear idea of what was happening at all. (How many normal citizens think about amorphia as a part of their daily lives? How many would have seen such things before? How many are educated in the mechanics of how such things work?) #2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later (The only one who might have been aware of who he was--before things got crazy--was the one sorceress they were after, and Morrolan takes care of her shortly afterwards). #3) That the higher-ups in the Jhereg knew what amorphia was, how incredibly dangerous it is to play around with, and somehow saw it as their responsibility to take care of the potential danger. Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* have been able to identify what was going on. I would say that if there were such, they would be the ones most likely to go into total shock when they saw the amorphia form, and be the least reliable as witnesses after the fact. Really, it's the last point that convinces me, personally. Why should the Jhereg stick their neck out to remove a dangerous Elder Sorcerer? Isn't the Empire supposed to enforce the laws concerning Elder Sorcery? So maybe they report it to the Phoenix Guard, who, after talking to their boss (Khaavren--who has likely already talked to Sethra about the situation) decides to leave well enough alone. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 06:16:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:16:16 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C3FB6A.8020602@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 10:22 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>"Elder Sorcery" is used somewhat interchangably in the texts to refer both >>to the ability to create and control Amorphia directly using the power of >>the mind (as Vlad does in /Jhereg/, then again later in /Issola/) and in >>the use of Chaos stones to channel a flow of amorphia (As used by Adron in >>FHYA). >> >> >> >I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. I've noticed a lot of parallels between /To Reign in Hell/ and /Five Hundred Years After/. I just picked up a copy of TRiH off Amazon so I could re-read it (borrowed a copy from a friend the first time), I was thinking of doing a side-by-side reading of both books to see how things might line up. Majikjon From chittom at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 06:22:33 2006 From: chittom at gmail.com (Carson Chittom) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:22:33 -0600 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1635f021e429c694c42437e1e78e5dd5@gmail.com> On Jan 11, 2006, at 8:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > #2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later (The > only > one who might have been aware of who he was--before things got > crazy--was > the one sorceress they were after, and Morrolan takes care of her > shortly > afterwards). This is the most important of your points, I think. Even calm eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jan 11 07:07:03 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:07:03 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in > magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* > have been > able to identify what was going on. I would say that if there were > such, > they would be the ones most likely to go into total shock when they > saw > the amorphia form, and be the least reliable as witnesses after the > fact. > > Really, it's the last point that convinces me, personally. Why > should the > Jhereg stick their neck out to remove a dangerous Elder Sorcerer? > Isn't > the Empire supposed to enforce the laws concerning Elder Sorcery? > So maybe > they report it to the Phoenix Guard, who, after talking to their boss > (Khaavren--who has likely already talked to Sethra about the > situation) > decides to leave well enough alone. > > Majikjon What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself to learning witchcraft (which is what I believe you intend by the use of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. Ken From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 07:33:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:33:22 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 07:07 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> >> Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in >> magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself >to learning witchcraft (which is what I believe you intend by the use >of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in >the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, >wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for "sorcery". I had already used the word "sorcereress" in that sentance, and I didn't want to sound redundant by saying "sorcery" later in the same statement. (As an aside, we don't really know if those particular left-hand sorceresses were necromancers, regular sorcerers, wizards, or maybe had studied witchcraft, but I didn't mean to imply that witchcraft was what they had specifically studied.) It is worth remembering, however, that with the Interregnum having ended only 240 years before this event, most sorceresses of the Left Hand at that point had likely lived during the Interregnum, and many may have studied witchcraft as an alternative form of magic while the Orb was gone. I suppose this idea applies equally to Elder Sorcery, as well. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 07:48:10 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:48:10 -0800 Subject: The Nature of Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 08:54 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have >> known it was Vlad? > >But since the event isn't remembered, it apparently didn't happen, whether >caused by an Easterner or someone else. (And yes, depending on how fast >Vlad's little trick had spread, someone might have known it was Vlad. Partly >it hinges on whether teleportation is really as new a trick as Paarfi says >it is. Certainly there were witnesses, whose memories are accessible through >the Orb.) Well, those memories would be accessible to the Emperor/Empress, anyway. But they may elect to suppress the information in the interests of not encouraging folks to play around with Elder Sorcery. >> Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had >> that little talk with Aliera. > >Now, this point I may have to concede. Actually I don't remember the >sequence of events from "Jarhead" very well. Was he thinking about the >Dolivar thing particularly, or just that Elder Sorcery were possible? Scott >pointed out that Vlad is certainly not the first to learn of Elder Sorcery. They had talked about it previously, and Vlad was thinking about the conversation very specifically when he did his thing. Again, "Elder Sorcery" is kind of a blanket term for any non-Orb sorcery, which can take many forms. Type 1: The ability to create amorphia directly, this is an e'Kieron thing. Type 2: The ability to use Chaos stones to control a flow of amorphia is clearly something that someone can learn to do with no genetic requirements. Type 3: The ability to mentally control existing amorphia directly without chaos stones. (What Vlad does in /Issola/ to *create* a chaos stone.) The nature of this last one is less clear. Can just anyone do this? Can only e'Kierons do this? Some would contend that this is what Grita did during the Interregnum, which is certainly implied by her statements. We don't know, however, if she had any chaos stones with her during these events, so it may be type 2 elder sorcery, rather than type 3. The fact that chaos stones were invented by "Athyra Wizards" might imply that anyone can do this type 3 stuff, but we don't know if those Athyra sorcerers might have had help from an e'Kieron. (It is, after all, Dragons who first used chaos stones effectively in Battle, right before they were banned.) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 08:38:02 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:38:02 -0800 Subject: Adron's Disaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 09:19 AM To cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) >I think you are missing something. Remember the discussion with Aliera. >Elder Sorcery is the direct manipulation of amorphia. Anyone (with >sufficient skill) can learn to do that. That is what Morrolan does, and what >Adron was doing to try take possession of the orb. Creation of amorphia is >the aspect that is linked to the E'Kieron line, and that is what Vlad did in >the restaurant. Vlad does not actually use Elder Sorcery until Issola, at >the stream and again shortly afterwards. See my earlier post about the 3 different "types" of Elder Sorcery. >Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created if >Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia the >result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by his >spell when it turned against him? Hmm... I think that, given the effects of the spell (according to Paarfi's version anyway) he was using, it wouldn't have mattered much *who* was doing the spell at that point. (Other than, by virtue of the fact that he was Dragon Heir, the Orb sought him out, causing the conflict that resulted in the disaster.) If, say K'laiyer e'Lanya had still been alive, and had been Heir, and had tried to use the same spell, it would have had the same consequences. Now, it was likely Adron's e'Kieron heritage that gave him the ability to create the chaos stones that made the spell possible in the first place, so it was likely a contributing factor, since K'laiyer e'Lanya wouldn't have been able to do such a spell, just because he wouldn't have the stones. (Please forgive me for the awful pun there.) Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 11 08:45:56 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:45:56 -0700 Subject: Adron's Disaster References: Message-ID: > > cc > > Subject > Re: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) > > > > > >I think you are missing something. Remember the discussion with Aliera. > >Elder Sorcery is the direct manipulation of amorphia. Anyone (with > >sufficient skill) can learn to do that. That is what Morrolan does, and > what > >Adron was doing to try take possession of the orb. Creation of amorphia > is > >the aspect that is linked to the E'Kieron line, and that is what Vlad did > in > >the restaurant. Vlad does not actually use Elder Sorcery until Issola, at > >the stream and again shortly afterwards. > > See my earlier post about the 3 different "types" of Elder Sorcery. > > >Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created > if > >Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia > the > >result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by > his > >spell when it turned against him? > > Hmm... I think that, given the effects of the spell (according to Paarfi's > version anyway) he was using, it wouldn't have mattered much *who* was > doing the spell at that point. (Other than, by virtue of the fact that he > was Dragon Heir, the Orb sought him out, causing the conflict that > resulted in the disaster.) If, say K'laiyer e'Lanya had still been alive, > and had been Heir, and had tried to use the same spell, it would have had > the same consequences. > > Now, it was likely Adron's e'Kieron heritage that gave him the ability to > create the chaos stones that made the spell possible in the first place, > so it was likely a contributing factor, since K'laiyer e'Lanya wouldn't > have been able to do such a spell, just because he wouldn't have the > stones. (Please forgive me for the awful pun there.) > > Majikjon > Actually, I believe he could, K'Laiyer would have just had to go to the Sea of Chaos to make them from the amorphia already there. Adron, however, could conceivably create amorphia and then change it to it's "useable" state anywhere and anytime. Jeff - Has his own seas of chaos, residing in each of his children's bedrooms From sethra500 at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 09:13:16 2006 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Sethra) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:13:16 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30991dd10601110913g4039abfbo8519a0c8dd626173@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created > if > Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia > the > result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by his > spell when it turned against him? > > When Vlad used it, he was thinking there was nothing in his power he could > do to, well, do anything. It seems more like it just happened. The above > statement makes sence. It happens (in the e'Kieron line) when the body, or > maybe mind, is under great stress. > > -- > Sethra > "As to that? T'is no great hardship. > Were't not for that, > ev'ry cowardly fellow would turn pirate > and so infest the sea > that men of courage must starve." > Mary Read at her trial Nov. 28 1720 > when asked what she thought about her punishment of hanging. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 09:35:04 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: comment by Orwell In-Reply-To: <1635f021e429c694c42437e1e78e5dd5@gmail.com> References: <1635f021e429c694c42437e1e78e5dd5@gmail.com> Message-ID: ... invariably the case in the East; a story always sounds clear enough at a distance, but the nearer you get to the scene of events the vaguer it becomes. - from "Shooting an Elephant" From kdvorenkamp at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 11:22:00 2006 From: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com (Kendra Vorenkamp) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:22:00 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I think it's debateable. The Organization appears to be distinct from > the aristocratic hierarchy. It could just as easily be that the Jhereg > Heir is mostly a figurehead who is allowed to do whatever he wants, > except with the restriction that the Jhereg Council is not made > unhappy by what he does, and the Organization is thus able to do > whatever it pleases, even when the Heir becomes the Emperor. In other > words, the Jhereg aristocracy always defers to the Organization in > matters pertaining to the Organization. > > But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest > Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is > synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. > > Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. > > Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not just the head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. Cheers, Kendra -- When we long for a life with no difficulties, remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary winds, and diamonds are made under pressure. - Peter Marshall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/2daa1f84/attachment.html From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jan 11 11:40:54 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:40:54 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> References: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02994FDD-3A2A-4334-AD76-06A1F2375D1F@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Kendra Vorenkamp wrote: > On 1/9/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> I think it's debateable. The Organization appears to be distinct >> from >> the aristocratic hierarchy. It could just as easily be that the >> Jhereg >> Heir is mostly a figurehead who is allowed to do whatever he wants, >> except with the restriction that the Jhereg Council is not made >> unhappy by what he does, and the Organization is thus able to do >> whatever it pleases, even when the Heir becomes the Emperor. In >> other >> words, the Jhereg aristocracy always defers to the Organization in >> matters pertaining to the Organization. >> >> But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest >> Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is >> synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. >> >> Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. >> >> Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be > misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not > just the > head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. > > Cheers, > Kendra In FHYA the meeting of the Principalities includes the Heirs from each house. It is also noted in Phoenix that the "business" end of the House is not the same as the part that is represented to the Imperium. Count Soffta, while obviously in touch with the business end, is the Jhereg rep to the court. Presumably he represents a Prince/Heir rather than the Council. I must admit that no Jhereg Prince is named, to the best of my recollection. Ken From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 11:53:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:53:19 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kendra Vorenkamp Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 11:22 AM Please respond to kdvorenkamp at gmail.com To Davdi Silverrock cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >> Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. >> >> Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be >misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not just the >head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. Well, Zerika IV makes comments to Vlad in /Phoenix/ (page 314 of /The Book of Taltos/) that says "Later, it was each House, through it's heir, which ruled each House..." While this is far from conclusive, the fact that she makes no exception for the House Jhereg when making this statement is telling. Also, in TPG, page 78 of the Trade Paperback: "...buy their way into positions of power until they can pick their own emperor." Implies that it is, indeed, an Emperor who rules in a Jhereg reign, not the whole council. I don't remember any specific mention of a Jhereg heir, directly, however. There is a Lord Beck mentioned, who came to Kana's little get-together, but he's only noted as a "former house representative". Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/2a9b7922/attachment.htm From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 11:55:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:55:41 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C3FB6A.8020602@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. > > I've noticed a lot of parallels between /To Reign in Hell/ and /Five > Hundred Years After/. > Huh. So Tortaalik is Yaweh, Adron is Satan, Greycat is Mephistopheles, and amorphia is cacoastrum? Interesting. I never thought of that. I think that I too have to re-read tRiH. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jan 11 11:59:47 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:59:47 +0100 Subject: Jhereg emperor WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >To: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com >CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info,Dragaera List >Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:53:19 -0800 > >Kendra Vorenkamp >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >01/11/06 11:22 AM >Please respond to >kdvorenkamp at gmail.com > > >To >Davdi Silverrock >cc >Dragaera List >Subject >Re: the honing of Vlad > >> Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be > >misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not just >the > >head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. > >Well, Zerika IV makes comments to Vlad in /Phoenix/ (page 314 of /The Book >of Taltos/) that says "Later, it was each House, through it's heir, which >ruled each House..." > >While this is far from conclusive, the fact that she makes no exception >for the House Jhereg when making this statement is telling. > We also have the *paraphrasing from memory* "Every house gets to rule through an emperor except for the Teckla Republic" bit. I bet we would have heard about any Jhereg Republic if any existed. :) /Mrtn From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 12:04:09 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:04:09 -0700 Subject: Jhereg emperor WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601111204m3c52cc15lfb20760ae2f55e6@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > > We also have the *paraphrasing from memory* "Every house gets to rule > through an emperor except for the Teckla Republic" bit. > I bet we would have heard about any Jhereg Republic if any existed. :) > Aside: more like "Jhereg plutocracy." :) Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 12:05:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:05:27 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >> > >> > >> Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in > >> magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* > > > >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself > >to learning witchcraft Morrolan e'Drien? > > (which is what I believe you intend by the use > >of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in > >the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, > >wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. > > Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for "sorcery". And you were generally correct in doing so. "Magic" is the general term which encompasses all of the branches of, well, magic, and therefore includes sorcery. Various hits on "magic" in /Issola/: Sethra: "If I can't reach them where they are, I don't know how I'd be able to watch you there." Vlad: "Uh ... magic?" Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, I'm not a witch." [Teldra] said, "And we were wondering if there was any magic here." (on seeing the river of amorphia) [Vlad] said, "Spellbreaker didn't help?" "It isn't that kind of magic," said Verra helpfully. And so on and so forth. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 12:17:40 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:17:40 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 11:55 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: >> >I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. >> >> I've noticed a lot of parallels between /To Reign in Hell/ and /Five >> Hundred Years After/. >> > >Huh. So Tortaalik is Yaweh, Adron is Satan, Greycat is >Mephistopheles, and amorphia is cacoastrum? > >Interesting. I never thought of that. I think that I too have to re-read tRiH. Phoenix Guard White Sash Battalion = Cherebim, Red Boot Battalion = Seraphim Breath of Fire Batalion = Satan's Army Aerich maybe takes the place of Lucifer... I dunno. Like I said, there's a lot of parallels, but I need to re-read it. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/1a58f3fa/attachment.html From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jan 11 12:26:15 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:26:15 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <581C5D5A-7EF7-4B12-8FE2-05CE03058F02@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> >> >> On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some >>>> training in >>>> magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* >> >> >>> What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself >>> to learning witchcraft > > Morrolan e'Drien? > >>> (which is what I believe you intend by the use >>> of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in >>> the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, >>> wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. >> >> Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for >> "sorcery". > > And you were generally correct in doing so. "Magic" is the general > term which encompasses all of the branches of, well, magic, and > therefore includes sorcery. > > Various hits on "magic" in /Issola/: > > Sethra: "If I can't reach them where they are, I don't know how I'd be > able to watch you there." > Vlad: "Uh ... magic?" > Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this > problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, > I'm not a witch." > > [Teldra] said, "And we were wondering if there was any magic here." > (on seeing the river of amorphia) > > [Vlad] said, "Spellbreaker didn't help?" > "It isn't that kind of magic," said Verra helpfully. > > And so on and so forth. Mea culpa--you found those references just like magic! Ken From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 11 12:26:54 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? Message-ID: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, I'm not a witch." So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had enough time to learn it... rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 12:45:15 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:45:15 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> Maybe for the same reason Morrolan isn't a chef? Lack of interest, apparently. Sethra: "I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!" Verra: "Did you... dress her up like this?" Vlad: "Yes. A bit. We did do the nose. And the hat." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From shawnb at stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 12:49:50 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:49:50 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601112050.k0BKnpVT027868@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Maximilian Wilson > Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:45 PM > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: Not a witch? > > Maybe for the same reason Morrolan isn't a chef? Lack of > interest, apparently. > > Sethra: "I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!" > Verra: "Did you... dress her up like this?" > Vlad: "Yes. A bit. We did do the nose. And the hat." > > Max Wilson And Morrolan was raised in the East, with lots of Easterner friends, and gained a little coven of his own that way. Sethra doesn't have those direct connections, so who would teach her? After Morrolan gets back, he might be willing to teach her, but I doubt she would be willing to be one of his students. Maybe if Tukko knew witchcraft.... Shawn From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 13:15:47 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:15:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself > > >to learning witchcraft > > Morrolan e'Drien? Having learned it before sorcery, he can hardly learn it as a sorcerer. And is he self-respecting? Perhaps he's self-regarding - but reflective enough to be the former? No, his insistence on honor in _J_ is self-respect I suppose. > > Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for "sorcery". > > And you were generally correct in doing so. "Magic" is the general > term which encompasses all of the branches of, well, magic, and > therefore includes sorcery. Taking "synonym" to mean, "A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word" (though I would prefer a definition describing the relationship between a pair of words), I disagree. That sorcery is an example of magic is generally accepted, though I might quibble about the technological aspects of the former being inconsistent with the latter's sense of "supernatural" (the former is unusual physics plus engineering, the latter [e.g., witchcraft] isn't explicable), so "metonymous" might be better than "synonymous". From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 13:20:13 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:20:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this > problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, > I'm not a witch." > > So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had > enough time to learn it... Wondered that myself on reading the above quote. Does witchcraft come from the gods? [TEoDM spoilers omitted.] If so, S might prefer to avoid it. Also, pararectally, one might need to be alive to be a witch. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 13:24:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:24:58 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 01:20 PM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >Also, pararectally, one might need to be alive to be a witch. What about Loraan? Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead witch? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 13:29:44 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:29:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? No, unless what the Texts indicate about the Empire's view of witchcraft is a cover-up. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 13:41:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:41:08 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? > > Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead > witch? > I would tend to strongly doubt it. Citing /Issola/ again: "Witchcraft," [Morrolan] explained, "is something else again." I could be wrong in my interpretation, but I think that witchcraft is most closely akin to psionics. This because all of the Dragaeran magical systems (sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy and wizardry) appear to involve amorphia. Witchcraft, while it does heavily involve the use of things that are symbols in order to make things easier for the witch, does not actually *require* anything besides the witch's mind and will. Or so Vlad appears to imply. Note also that it was Daymar's purely psychic boost that helped Vlad in /Jhereg/. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 13:51:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:51:02 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, rone wrote: > Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this > problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, > I'm not a witch." > > So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had > enough time to learn it... > Perhaps it's a matter of pride. She would inevitably be required to spend a reasonably lengthy period of time learning with someone much younger and inexperienced than herself. She might feel that doing this would be demeaning. And as for "enough time", well, until Adron's Disaster, I don't think it ever occurred to her that there would be a time when sorcery stopped working (and even after it did so, there was still Elder Sorcery), so she would see no reason to learn a magic which did not use sorcery. From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 11 14:02:58 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:02:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060111220258.1034F6848F@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: Perhaps it's a matter of pride. She would inevitably be required to spend a reasonably lengthy period of time learning with someone much younger and inexperienced than herself. She might feel that doing this would be demeaning. That doesn't jibe with her creating of her Alternate Persona. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 14:04:33 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:04:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, rone wrote: > > So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had > > enough time to learn it... > > > > Perhaps it's a matter of pride. She would inevitably be required to > spend a reasonably lengthy period of time learning with someone much > younger and inexperienced than herself. There's Verra, isn't there? Don't see why she'd care, though. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 14:32:11 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:32:11 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock 01/11/06 01:41 PM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc Philip Hart , dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List Subject Re: Not a witch? >On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > >> Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines >> (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? >> >> Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead >> witch? > > >I would tend to strongly doubt it. > >Citing /Issola/ again: > >"Witchcraft," [Morrolan] explained, "is something else again." > >I could be wrong in my interpretation, but I think that witchcraft is >most closely akin to psionics. This because all of the Dragaeran >magical systems (sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy and wizardry) >appear to involve amorphia. Witchcraft, while it does heavily involve >the use of things that are symbols in order to make things easier for >the witch, does not actually *require* anything besides the witch's >mind and will. Or so Vlad appears to imply. Note also that it was >Daymar's purely psychic boost that helped Vlad in /Jhereg/. So, obviously the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same thing?) This being said, I believe the original question was, "Can the undead perform witchcraft?" putting that aside for the moment, how about this one: "Can the undead use Psychics/Psionics?" Judging by Sethra's ability to communicate this way with Vlad, Morrolan, etc, I'd say the simple answer is yes. Therefore it would stand to reason that witchcraft may be attainable for the undead, unless there is some further requirement, beyond needing the ability to use Psychic energy., that would limit an undead personage. Myself, I keep thinking about Jack Agyar, and *his* abilities, which seem to be more Psychic than anything else. (But being that /Agyar/ is not set in Dragaera, this is not directly applicable.) Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/53fc592b/attachment.htm From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 15:23:14 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:23:14 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > > > >> Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > >> (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? > >> > >> Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead > >> witch? > > > > > >I would tend to strongly doubt it. > > > >Citing /Issola/ again: > > > >"Witchcraft," [Morrolan] explained, "is something else again." > > > >I could be wrong in my interpretation, but I think that witchcraft is > >most closely akin to psionics. This because all of the Dragaeran > >magical systems (sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy and wizardry) > >appear to involve amorphia. Witchcraft, while it does heavily involve > >the use of things that are symbols in order to make things easier for > >the witch, does not actually *require* anything besides the witch's > >mind and will. Or so Vlad appears to imply. Note also that it was > >Daymar's purely psychic boost that helped Vlad in /Jhereg/. > > So, obviously the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it > work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian > difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same > thing?) I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. Sort of like Chaos/Amorphia. > > This being said, I believe the original question was, "Can the undead > perform witchcraft?" Actually, you seemed to be suggesting that wizardry included witchcraft. My argument is that it does not, given Aliera's and Morrlan's little summation to Vlad about amorphia & necrophia. That is, wizardry is a Dragaeran magical technology based on deep understanding of and experience with amorphia and necrophia. Witchcraft is not necessary for wizardry to work. Which is not to say that a wizard cannot be a witch; case in point, Morrolan again. > > "Can the undead use Psychics/Psionics?" > > Judging by Sethra's ability to communicate this way with Vlad, > Morrolan, etc, I'd say the simple answer is yes. True, but note that that appears to be facilitated by the Orb; that is, the Orb boosting psychic abilities. > Therefore it would stand to reason that witchcraft may be > attainable for the undead, I see no reason to argue against this. While being undead is "sometimes inconvenient", to paraphrase the Necromancer, there is nothing that indicates exactly what that inconvenience is, so far. Especially in the area of magical ability. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 15:29:31 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:29:31 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? /Viscount/ is pretty clear that Sethra considers herself a wizard, as did Tazendra, while Issola is clear that Sethra does not consider herself a witch. QED. I'm tempted to take Vlad's comment about wizardry in Issola as a somewhat fascetious comment intended to indicate that he actually hasn't a clue in the world what wizardry is. "Roll them all together and shove them in a box" sounds a lot like a verbal shrug. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 15:43:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:43:37 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were >both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. > >Sort of like Chaos/Amorphia. > > I seem to recall some William Gibson novels of the same era as /Jhereg/ (early 1980's) making extensive use of "psionics", as well as GURPS, and some other RPGs. The term seems to have fallen out of use at some point in the early-to-mid-90's, which sort of coincides with when SKZB's books started using the term "Psychics" instead. Does anyone else have examples of psionic as opposed to psychic? >Actually, you seemed to be suggesting that wizardry included >witchcraft. My argument is that it does not, given Aliera's and > > Yes, but only so I could use Loraan as an exmple of an undead witch. As to this point, I would refer you to Issola, page 127: [cite] The Elder Sorcery is, perhaps, the most difficult branch of magic, at least until you try to throw them all together and tie them up in some object where you also keep your soul so you get to call yourself a "wizard", for whatever satisfaction that will bring you. [/cite] This seems to use "magic" in its most generic sense, which may or may not include witchcraft, but given that Vlad is the one making the quote, and he's *very* familiar with witchcraft and its status as a magical discipline, I'd say at least *he* thinks that a wizard would also be a witch. Vlad, of course, may have stated the definition of "wizard" a bit glibly. (Ya' think?) > >True, but note that that appears to be facilitated by the Orb; that >is, the Orb boosting psychic abilities. > > No doubt Psychic communication is aided by the Orb (Paarfi says as much in SL). But could someone cut off from psychic energies use psionic communication, even if they had access to the Orb? I don't know if we have enough data to answer this one. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 15:46:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:46:37 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >/Viscount/ is pretty clear that Sethra considers herself a wizard, as >did Tazendra, while Issola is clear that Sethra does not consider >herself a witch. QED. > > I'm blanking on where Sethra refers to herself as a Wizard... (Not that I'm really disagreeing, I just don't recall it). >I'm tempted to take Vlad's comment about wizardry in Issola as a >somewhat fascetious comment intended to indicate that he actually >hasn't a clue in the world what wizardry is. "Roll them all together >and shove them in a box" sounds a lot like a verbal shrug. > >Max > > You were reading my last post as I was typing it in, weren't you? ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 15:51:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:51:02 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C599E6.6060102@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >Maybe for the same reason Morrolan isn't a chef? Lack of interest, apparently. > >Sethra: "I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!" >Verra: "Did you... dress her up like this?" >Vlad: "Yes. A bit. We did do the nose. And the hat." > >Max Wilson > So... If Sethra weighs the same as an issola... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 15:54:24 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:54:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > The Elder Sorcery is, perhaps, the most difficult branch of magic, at > least until you try to throw them all together and tie them up in some > object where you also keep your soul so you get to call yourself a > "wizard", for whatever satisfaction that will bring you. > > [/cite] > > This seems to use "magic" in its most generic sense, which may or may > not include witchcraft, but given that Vlad is the one making the quote, > and he's *very* familiar with witchcraft and its status as a magical > discipline, I'd say at least *he* thinks that a wizard would also be a > witch. Or he's speaking sloppily, which I find infinitely more likely. Or he agrees with me that sorcery etc is actually tech and is using "magic" in the standard Dragaeran sense, which excludes witchcraft as Eastern. The fact that M is highly unusual as a witch makes nonsense of the idea that wizardry includes witchcraft. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 16:53:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:53:21 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > As to this point, I would refer you to Issola, page 127: > > [cite] > > The Elder Sorcery is, perhaps, the most difficult branch of magic, at > least until you try to throw them all together and tie them up in some > object where you also keep your soul so you get to call yourself a > "wizard", for whatever satisfaction that will bring you. > > [/cite] > > This seems to use "magic" in its most generic sense, which may or may > not include witchcraft, but given that Vlad is the one making the quote, > and he's *very* familiar with witchcraft and its status as a magical > discipline, I'd say at least *he* thinks that a wizard would also be a > witch. Hmph. Your argument appears to hinge on Vlad meaning by "all" *every* other type of magic that there is, rather than "all of the standard Dragaeran branches of magic". The context in which he is saying it most certainly does not support your interpretation. He's thinking about Elder Sorcery, and how very little he really knows about it despite having done something really big and really incredibly stupid once, and the bit about wizardry is something he tosses off as a brief, and slightly snarky, aside. > Vlad, of course, may have stated the definition of "wizard" a bit > glibly. (Ya' think?) I nearly think that that is most certainly entirely the case. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 17:03:44 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:03:44 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > >/Viscount/ is pretty clear that Sethra considers herself a wizard, as > >did Tazendra, while Issola is clear that Sethra does not consider > >herself a witch. QED. > > > > > I'm blanking on where Sethra refers to herself as a Wizard... (Not that > I'm really disagreeing, I just don't recall it). Search inside suggests that she does not. However, since she can *teach* wizards (that is, Tazendra, and probably the other Lavodes in the past), well, I nearly think that whatever she is *includes* being a wizard. But really, all she needs to do is refer to herself as Sethra Lavode, and that should say it all, to anyone who knows anything. > >I'm tempted to take Vlad's comment about wizardry in Issola as a > >somewhat fascetious comment intended to indicate that he actually > >hasn't a clue in the world what wizardry is. "Roll them all together > >and shove them in a box" sounds a lot like a verbal shrug. > > > >Max > > > > > You were reading my last post as I was typing it in, weren't you? ;-) > Maybe he's secretly psychic. (Or psionic. Whatever.) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 17:07:09 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:07:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: Is there no evidence of Sethra having been court wizard? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 18:15:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:15:02 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5BBA6.5030107@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >Is there no evidence of Sethra having been court wizard? > > Not that I've ever seen. Plenty of references to her as Warlord, however. I guess when she's offered a cabinet position, there's only one logical choice. The Sorceress in Green was offered the position of Court Wizard once, though. (And no doubt she peers down her nose at witchcraft as much as anyone does...) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 18:22:35 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:22:35 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5BD6B.7020408@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Search inside suggests that she does not. However, since she can >*teach* wizards (that is, Tazendra, and probably the other Lavodes in >the past), well, I nearly think that whatever she is *includes* being >a wizard. > >But really, all she needs to do is refer to herself as Sethra Lavode, >and that should say it all, to anyone who knows anything. > > Indeed. >Maybe he's secretly psychic. > >(Or psionic. Whatever.) > > Are you saying he could secretly be Daymar, and we'd never know? Wow. I think my head just melted. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 18:20:53 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:20:53 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Hmph. Your argument appears to hinge on Vlad meaning by "all" *every* >other type of magic that there is, rather than "all of the standard >Dragaeran branches of magic". > > It wasn't really an argument, just trying to stay open to different possibilities. Vlad certainly uses the term loosely enough to make it a conversation, either way, though I'd say the preponderance of evidence does seem to point to witchcraft not being critical to the study of wizardry. It says nothing, however, about the art of Psychics themselves, which are at least related to witchcraft, and without the stigma of being "Eastern" (See Daymar). >The context in which he is saying it most certainly does not support >your interpretation. He's thinking about Elder Sorcery, and how very >little he really knows about it despite having done something really >big and really incredibly stupid once, and the bit about wizardry is >something he tosses off as a brief, and slightly snarky, aside. > > No real argument, here. The context makes this interpretation very shaky, there's no denying it. > >I nearly think that that is most certainly entirely the case. > > Vlad? Being glib? Next thing you'll tell me he's being sarcastic.(Which couldn't *ever* happen, of course.) Majikjon Comic Book Guy: Ooo, a *sarcasm* detector! That's a *real* useful invention! From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 11 14:54:03 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:54:03 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C58C8B.3080203@brazee.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself >to learning witchcraft (which is what I believe you intend by the use >of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in >the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, >wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. >Ken > > > One looking for a job at a certain black castle. Or a scholar. Or someone looking of an edge - maybe an assassin. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 21:01:23 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:01:23 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> True, but note that that appears to be facilitated by the Orb; that >> is, the Orb boosting psychic abilities. >> > No doubt Psychic communication is aided by the Orb (Paarfi says as > much in SL). But could someone cut off from psychic energies use > psionic communication, even if they had access to the Orb? I don't > know if we have enough data to answer this one. There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can contact Vlad or even trace him using psionics/psychics because of the disruptive field. It also causes him to be unable to contact others. I don't remember what the results of Sethra's experiments showed regarding the properties of Phoenix Stones. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 21:01:33 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:01:33 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> Hmph. Your argument appears to hinge on Vlad meaning by "all" *every* >> other type of magic that there is, rather than "all of the standard >> Dragaeran branches of magic". >> >> > It wasn't really an argument, just trying to stay open to different > possibilities. > > Vlad certainly uses the term loosely enough to make it a conversation, > either way, though I'd say the preponderance of evidence does seem to > point to witchcraft not being critical to the study of wizardry. It > says nothing, however, about the art of Psychics themselves, which are > at least related to witchcraft, and without the stigma of being > "Eastern" (See Daymar). But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much higher than witchcraft. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 21:16:12 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:16:12 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Jose Marquez wrote: > But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. > Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight > face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the > moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." > > It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much > higher than witchcraft. Yes, but Aliera has at least mild contempt for almost everyone. Even Vlad, when she first met him in /Taltos/. And certainly for Sethra throughout FHYA. And this exchange is even typical for her and Morrolan, who we know she has no *real* contempt for. Aliera tends to mask her real feelings behind a facade of snippiness. I think it's a defense mechanism. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 21:56:29 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:56:29 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Jose Marquez wrote: > > > But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. > > Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight > > face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the > > moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." > > > > It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much > > higher than witchcraft. > > Yes, but Aliera has at least mild contempt for almost everyone. > > Even Vlad, when she first met him in /Taltos/. And also for Kieron the Conqueror. And also, at times, for her own mother, the goddess Verra. Given Daymar's power, I think anyone who has *genuine* contempt for someone who can break through a military teleport block -- not to mention everything else Daymar has done -- is entirely confused. Indeed, when Aliera broke through to Greenaere using Elder Sorcery, Daymar helped. So I really doubt that she really feels contempt for him. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 22:18:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:18:36 -0800 Subject: Cursing in Fenarian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of cursing, and Fenarian/Hungarian, there's this page on Serbian, which digresses onto Hungarian. http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002157.php This bit I thought particularly amusing: [Begin Cite] On a tangent, a Hungarian friend of mine who is a history teacher once told me that the earliest record of the Hungarian language is not, in fact, the list of land owners' names contained in the "Tihany Abbey Document" dating from the 11th century. Apparently a Byzantine source from 200 years earlier mentions an emabssy from Constantinople meeting a group of pre-Pannonian Magyars (referred to at the time as "Turkoi" in Byzantine sources) which says that these Turkoi spoke 'Turkoi' as well as their own special language. This language was unintelligible to the other "Turkoi" and the one most common expression was recorded as "Bazamak!" Which is considerably close to the most common Hungarian swear word "bazd/bassza meg!" (Fuck it/you" (Literally "Befucked!" in an Old English fashion...) [End Cite] From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 23:03:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:03:33 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601112303n26b7cc13g2c5f8e1338e00abb@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Indeed, when Aliera broke through to Greenaere using Elder Sorcery, > Daymar helped. So I really doubt that she really feels contempt for > him. Aside: of course, it was Sethra doing the Elder Sorcery here, and Aliera was simply the package. May be relevant to the discussion on "wizards." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 23:25:26 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:25:26 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Jose Marquez wrote: > >> But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. >> Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight >> face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the >> moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." >> >> It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much >> higher than witchcraft. > > > Yes, but Aliera has at least mild contempt for almost everyone. True; I should have been clearer. I meant that her (mild: clearly she's attempting banter, and it's going right over Daymar's head) contempt was aimed not necessarily at Daymar, but at his skills. He uses his psychic ability to float ostentatiously and has acquired a reputation for mind-probing teckla; naturally, she'll roll her eyes and mock him. Yes, he's a supremely powerful psychic, but the impression I get from Aliera is that she considers this to be as useful as a goldfish mastering the bicycle. It's impressive, but ultimately pointless. Mind you, *I'm* not suggesting that Daymar's skills are pointless, just that they are probably viewed a notch above witchcraft, if that. As we have seen, Dragaerans in general dismiss witchcraft as a skill, despite its obvious (to the reader and to Vlad & co.) usefulness. I imagine that much the same happens with Daymar and psionics/psychics. > Even Vlad, when she first met him in /Taltos/. This doesn't come as any surprise; she considers him her inferior. > And certainly for Sethra throughout FHYA. Also not surprising. It's interesting; she more or less reacts the same way to her superiors or inferiors: mild contempt/haughtiness/arrogance. Very typical Dragon. > And this exchange is even typical for her and Morrolan, who we know > she has no *real* contempt for. > > Aliera tends to mask her real feelings behind a facade of snippiness. > I think it's a defense mechanism. Well, yeah. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 23:33:54 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:33:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Jose Marquez wrote: > her (mild: clearly she's attempting banter, and it's going right over > Daymar's head) Clearly he should float higher. > contempt was aimed not necessarily at Daymar, but at his skills. > He uses his psychic ability to float ostentatiously Note that A used to do some floating herself (I think not at the time of _J_ though). Perhaps there's a double self-loathing here - she was self-conscious about her height, and having stopped levitating for effect she reacts more strongly than normal to those who still do. Or just overcompensation. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 06:36:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:36:42 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 09:01 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh >can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of >psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is different from normal psychic contact. There was an internal decision-making process that said, "I need a way to shield Vlad from Psychic energy to hide him from the Jhereg, but I need to keep up the ongoing conversations between him and Loiosh while I do so." And rather than explaining a contrived difference between Vlad/Loiosh's conversations and normal psychic ones, Brust simply notes that there *is* a difference of some kind, and moves along. This is not a criticism. In fact, it's a rather elegant way of preventing a piece of fairly meaningless minutae from getting in the way of a good story. However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy (which does not). >contact Vlad or even trace him using psionics/psychics because of the >disruptive field. It also causes him to be unable to contact others. I >don't remember what the results of Sethra's experiments showed regarding >the properties of Phoenix Stones. No results of this were ever offered to the reader, so it's not surprising that you don't remember them. ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 12 07:20:00 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:20:00 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Given Daymar's power, I think anyone who has *genuine* contempt for > someone who can break through a military teleport block -- not to > mention everything else Daymar has done -- is entirely confused. > Don't confuse contempt for Daymar with contempt for his science or his skills. Daymar is the quintessential nerd. His associates have the same reactions to him that a group of high-school friends would have to the "bookworm" in the group who couldn't get less than an 'A' even if he tried to fail, talked above everyone's heads half the time, and had no clue that anyone might find him annoying. His place in the social group doesn't come from his personality. It comes from being basically forthright at all times and useful for skills and knowledge that the rest of the group would otherwise have no inkling of or access to. . The fact that the "nerd" is oblivious to both his nerdiness and to the teasing he gets from his friends is simply the hallmark of his role in the group. Being completely unaware/uninterested in the obvious personal gain he could achieve from it is a more than adequate reason for most people to hold him in contempt. In the "parable of the onion", Vlad insinuates that this is a trait of Hawklords in general, though I think Daymar may be an extreme case. Interesting picturing Vlad and Co. as the Archie gang. I imagine that Vlad and Loiosh would have an interesting conversation about which one of them is Jughead. *heh* As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably several branches of "fringe" schools of magic. As noted, it seems to be rather similar to Witchcraft, though it's methods are derived from the Dragaeran left-brain approach to such things compared to the Eastern right-brain approach. It might well be a hallmark of House Hawk that it has nearly as many "schools" of esoteric science as it has family lines to research and teach them. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 07:35:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:35:31 -0800 Subject: Psychics Held in Contempt? In-Reply-To: <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 11:25 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >True; I should have been clearer. I meant that her (mild: clearly she's >attempting banter, and it's going right over Daymar's head) contempt was >aimed not necessarily at Daymar, but at his skills. He uses his psychic >ability to float ostentatiously and has acquired a reputation for >mind-probing teckla; naturally, she'll roll her eyes and mock him. Yes, >he's a supremely powerful psychic, but the impression I get from Aliera >is that she considers this to be as useful as a goldfish mastering the >bicycle. It's impressive, but ultimately pointless. Mind you, *I'm* not Well, I see where you're coming from, and if this comment were from anyone other than Aliera, I might even agree with you. ;-) You'd think the fact that Psychic energy (i.e. Vlad's spell) helped get Morrolan out of the Paths of the Dead might have shown her the usefulness of such things. Frankly, I think the fact that Aliera even deigns to talk to him is an indication of the fact that she has a fair amount of respect for him. Note just how many times she's ever talked to Kragar. >suggesting that Daymar's skills are pointless, just that they are >probably viewed a notch above witchcraft, if that. As we have seen, >Dragaerans in general dismiss witchcraft as a skill, despite its obvious >(to the reader and to Vlad & co.) usefulness. I imagine that much the >same happens with Daymar and psionics/psychics. By the same token, almost all Dragaerans use Psychic communication since the Interregnum ended. Psi-prints are commonly displayed in the homes of prestigious nobles. I don't know what this says about how Dragaerans view the practitioners of such technologies, but think about it this way: How much contempt does *our* society have for photographers or telephone operators? >Also not surprising. It's interesting; she more or less reacts the same >way to her superiors or inferiors: mild contempt/haughtiness/arrogance. >Very typical Dragon. Well, I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say she doesn't *have* any superiors. (Isn't that a trait of Dragons? They are convinced of their own superiority, and that of their house.) Remember, Aliera is still a fairly young Dragon. She was only 500 when Daddy blew up Dragaera City, and she's been in limbo since then, so even though it's 450+ years later, she never really experienced any of that time, and is really still only about 500. Looked at from this angle, she's almost exactly the same maturity level as Morrolan, despite being 500 years his elder. Interesting. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 12 07:54:44 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:54:44 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C67BC4.5000106@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh >>can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of >>psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can > >Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than >anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is >different from normal psychic contact. > > We do know of some real differences. Witchcraft works in the Halls of Judgment. Psychic powers work where sorcery fails. The Serioli and certainly the Jenoine have other magics. What is unclear is how much of these differences are innate and how much of them are developed. We know that Orb based sorcery allows for a convenient way for Dragaerans to do a lot of magic - while greatly reducing the risks of repeating the disasters of the past. This doesn't mean that sorcery has lost the power that it once had - only that the convenient tool is designed for other goals. Can we have Einstein's theory of magic bringing everything together without destroying everything? From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 12 07:56:03 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:56:03 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43C67C13.2030806@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably >several branches of "fringe" schools of magic. As noted, it seems to be >rather similar to Witchcraft, though it's methods are derived from the >Dragaeran left-brain approach to such things compared to the Eastern >right-brain approach. It might well be a hallmark of House Hawk that it has >nearly as many "schools" of esoteric science as it has family lines to >research and teach them. > > > I like this thought. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 08:05:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:05:33 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C67BC4.5000106@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 07:54 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >Can we have Einstein's theory of magic bringing everything together >without destroying everything? Kind of a Grand Unified Sorcerous Field Theory? Sorry, but Daymar is a HawkLORD, not a HawkING. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 12 08:08:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:08:18 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C67EF2.4040503@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > *Howard Brazee * > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > 01/12/06 07:54 AM > > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: Not a witch? > > > > > > > > >Can we have Einstein's theory of magic bringing everything together > >without destroying everything? > > Kind of a Grand Unified Sorcerous Field Theory? > > Sorry, but Daymar is a HawkLORD, not a HawkING. > > Majikjon > > I agree, you are sorry. From scs at di.org Thu Jan 12 07:56:11 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:56:11 -0500 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Was Subject: Re: Not a witch? On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:20:00AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably > several branches of "fringe" schools of magic . . . Note that fringes are sometimes new knowledge which simply hasn't come into the general public yet. A skilled worker developing things which appear to contradict existing principles or which look at things in a radically different way would seem to be off in a fringe until either the knowledge became widespread or the results proved that, no matter how odd it looks, there's something there. As an example, consider the Necromancer. A few of the cognoscenti seem to know what she does; none seem to have actually replicated it. I get the impression that Loraan was researching in the same area, which would certianly make him on the fringe of most Dragaerans. The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans seems to use interchangably with "vampire." But it is not unreasonable to suppose that her own skills could return her, or even make her 'undead' without the normal process of dying. Perhaps this process is required to work in her area of expertise, and Sethra has been studying with her. This might well explain Sethras condition without requiring her to have actually been killed, and the things she said to Vlad about dying and returning were simplifications (you know, lies) to avoid trying to explain the nearly inexplicable. Nah, unlikely. The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. If Loraan was working in the same area, it might well explain how he came back as a 'vampire' without requiring the Gods to send him back. (Note for the nit-picky: no, there's no textev that the Gods were or weren't involved in returning him as a vampire. It just seems odd that they'd do it.) Another thing unexplained by the text is why vampires are treated as fearsome creatures. We've never seen any instance of a vampire acting other than he did in normal life. Sethra seems to have been so unchanged that nobody noticed for years. And Loraan was an asshole on both before and after. We've seen Sethra eat; we've never seen her nor any other vampire drink blood. So why the fear? -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From ike at manor.org Thu Jan 12 08:46:26 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Does anyone else have examples of psionic as opposed to psychic? My impression was that it's a difference of active vs. passive, but I have nothing to back it up at the moment. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 09:04:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:04:13 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 07:56 AM To Scott Schultz cc 'Dragaera List' Subject Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >Another thing unexplained by the text is why vampires are treated as >fearsome creatures. We've never seen any instance of a vampire acting >other than he did in normal life. Sethra seems to have been so unchanged >that nobody noticed for years. And Loraan was an asshole on both before >and after. We've seen Sethra eat; we've never seen her nor any other >vampire drink blood. So why the fear? Having just finished /Agyar/ recently, I think I can safely say that Brust has not really described everything it means to be an undead, or a vampire in Dragaera. (Agyar was a tremendous read, BTW. A quality on par with /To Reign in Hell/, which is my absolute favorite Brust book. I highly recommend it for those who haven't read it yet.) We get hints at it from Vlad (especially in /Orca/, when he discusses Sethra's eating habits), but we're not quite sure where Sethra gets the blood she needs to consume. (Maybe this is the true fate of all those Dzur Heroes?) Or maybe Tukko gets it for her. Either way, there may well be more reasons to fear Sethra Lavode than we have seen so far. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 09:22:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:36 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 07:56 AM To Scott Schultz cc 'Dragaera List' Subject Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:20:00AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > >The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans >seems to use interchangably with "vampire." But it is not unreasonable >to suppose that her own skills could return her, or even make her >'undead' without the normal process of dying. Perhaps this process is >required to work in her area of expertise, and Sethra has been studying >with her. This might well explain Sethras condition without requiring >her to have actually been killed, and the things she said to Vlad about >dying and returning were simplifications (you know, lies) to avoid trying >to explain the nearly inexplicable. Nah, unlikely. > >The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who >are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is >undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. Are all undead Vampires? Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? >If Loraan was working in the same area, it might well explain how he >came back as a 'vampire' without requiring the Gods to send him back. >(Note for the nit-picky: no, there's no textev that the Gods were or >weren't involved in returning him as a vampire. It just seems odd that >they'd do it.) And do we know that Loraan was a Vampire? Is the Necromancer a Vampire? I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book this is from. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 12 09:54:23 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:54:23 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Scott Schultz" Cc: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation > Was Subject: Re: Not a witch? > > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:20:00AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > snip > The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans > seems to use interchangably with "vampire." But it is not unreasonable > to suppose that her own skills could return her, or even make her > 'undead' without the normal process of dying. Perhaps this process is > required to work in her area of expertise, and Sethra has been studying > with her. This might well explain Sethras condition without requiring > her to have actually been killed, and the things she said to Vlad about > dying and returning were simplifications (you know, lies) to avoid trying > to explain the nearly inexplicable. Nah, unlikely. > > The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who > are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is > undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. snip > -- > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." > -- Albert Einstein I suspect that the Necromancer is only undead on Dragearea. She is summoned by the LoJ to help out, and whips up a suitable "body" to host her awareness while she is there. It makes sense if you include the "life and death are engineering " quote. Jeff -can't make a host body, but has hosted parties of varying degrees of awareness From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 10:02:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:02:33 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121002j7ca85e72h479336ee68647ecd@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Are all undead Vampires? > > Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? ObGRRM: More frozen zombies! More frozen zombies! More frozen zombies! Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jan 12 10:32:55 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:32:55 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote On 01/12/06 09:22,: > Are all undead Vampires? > > Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? Yep, there are undead besides Vampires. Recall that the Necromancer raised parts of Kana's army when they attacked M's little outpost in Lord of Castle Black. I suspect they were zombies, and not Vamps. :) Chris From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:07:07 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:07:07 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than > anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is > different from normal psychic contact. > > There was an internal decision-making process that said, "I need a way to > shield Vlad from Psychic energy to hide him from the Jhereg, but I need to > keep up the ongoing conversations between him and Loiosh while I do so." > > And rather than explaining a contrived difference between Vlad/Loiosh's > conversations and normal psychic ones, Brust simply notes that there *is* > a difference of some kind, and moves along. Well, yes, but he always does that. Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same methods. Now watch Philip Hart smack me down for abusing the word "quantum". > This is not a criticism. In fact, it's a rather elegant way of preventing > a piece of fairly meaningless minutae from getting in the way of a good > story. > > However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science > Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy > (which does not). > I am not sure if this is necessarily the best definition of the difference between science fiction and fantasy. But I don't think the Dragaera stories could ever be described as being science fiction, despite the addition of genetic engineering and such. Hm. Maybe it's time for another definitions thread. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 13:33:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:33:04 -0800 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 01:07 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic >communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal >magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially >put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas >the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky >action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same >methods. Interesting idea. I think I like an analogy that involves Vlad being "entangled" with Loiosh. Seems very appropriate. >Now watch Philip Hart smack me down for abusing the word "quantum". Quantum Abuse: Would that be spooky abuse at a distance? >> However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science >> Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy >> (which does not). > >I am not sure if this is necessarily the best definition of the >difference between science fiction and fantasy. But I don't think the >Dragaera stories could ever be described as being science fiction, >despite the addition of genetic engineering and such. I find that an interesting observation, especially in light of your previous point which you used Quantam Entanglement as an example... ;-) Certainly, this is not the *only* distinction between Fantasy and SF, but it's one of my personal litmus tests. I think my assertion wasn't that the Dragaera books are Science Fiction, but rather, that they float between Fantasy and SF (as many Fantasy authors like to do, these days... See Piers Anthony, Orson Scott Card, Neil Gaiman, etc, etc) Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. Either that, or else just "Fiction". Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060112/d8f5fe10/attachment.html From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:38:31 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:38:31 -0600 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books > is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it > science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. I was going to make the same comment. I've been reading Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion novels (currently "The Curse of Chalion", followed by "Paladin of Souls", a 2004 Hugo winner). Reading a review, I've seen these novels (which otherwise lean very hard to the fantasy side of things) referred to as "Speculative Theology". I rather like that. I'm working on something right now that mines a similar vein, adding a sly vertical element to an otherwise horizontal story. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:44:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:44:21 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably > several branches of "fringe" schools of magic. As noted, it seems to be > rather similar to Witchcraft, though it's methods are derived from the > Dragaeran left-brain approach to such things compared to the Eastern > right-brain approach. It might well be a hallmark of House Hawk that it has > nearly as many "schools" of esoteric science as it has family lines to > research and teach them. > I noted that in /Sethra Lavode/, there was mentioned one "Paarfi of Hovaal" (no relation to the author of the Histories) who headed Sethra's psychic communication corps, who was also a Hawklord. I sort of suspect that Hawks may tend to specialize in psychics. On a tangent, an analogy that occurred to me was that Orb-sorcery might be compared to the steady, standardized voltage, frequency and amperage of electricity that modern society uses, Elder sorcery might be compared to directly tapping nuclear power (the stuff that (sometimes) drives the power plants that produces the electricity that everyone else uses), and psychics is like magnetism (often produced by electricity, but can also exist on its own, and can be very powerful). To continue the (somewhat strained) analogy, witchcraft can be compared to directly exploiting quantum mechanical effects, which are weaker than the more common forces. But there's stuff that can be done with quantum mechanical effects that cannot be done with anything else. Um. Or something like that. Disclaimer: I've just read an article on atom chips, which causes me to want to pretend that I know what I'm talking about when discussing physics. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:46:00 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:46:00 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic > communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal > magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially > put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas > the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky > action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same > methods. > It can't? I thought I remembered Loiosh having trouble communicating with Vlad on Greenaere. I'm almost positive Loiosh commented on the difficulty of sensing *others* there, but I also thought he had trouble communicating with Vlad when Vlad was in jail and Loiosh was flying back for help. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:56:03 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:56:03 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic > > communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal > > magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially > > put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas > > the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky > > action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same > > methods. > > > > It can't? I thought I remembered Loiosh having trouble communicating > with Vlad on Greenaere. I'm almost positive Loiosh commented on the > difficulty of sensing *others* there, I would argue that "dampened" is distinct from "defeated". The fact that Vlad and Loiosh could communicate *at all* means that the link was still there. Although I suppose Daymar's getting through later (very weakly) suggests that defeating psychic communication is just an extreme level of dampening. > but I also thought he had > trouble communicating with Vlad when Vlad was in jail and Loiosh was > flying back for help. > But was that due to the Phoenix Stone or to distance? I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that that is the furthest that Loiosh has ever been from Vlad, in the stories we've had so far. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 14:28:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:28:34 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans > seems to use interchangably with "vampire." I think we've only seen Vlad refer to Sethra Lavode as being undead, and also as being a vampire. Anything else is you generalizing from one example. > > The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who > are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. The common man does not necessarily know anything of the sort. Vlad just learned about undead being returned by the Gods from Sethra in /Issola/. And the whole vampire thing is a confusion that the terms are synonymous - something that might very well be because Vlad was confused. While a vampire might well be undead, an undead is not necessarily a vampire. > Thus everyone who is > undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. Again, not necessarily. Even granted that *some* undead are returned by the Gods, we cannot conclude that that is the *only* way to become an undead. > If Loraan was working in the same area, it might well explain how he > came back as a 'vampire' without requiring the Gods to send him back. And Loraan was not necessarily a vampire. Indeed, checking "search inside", I see that Vlad explicitly asks Savn about "blood drained" deaths, and when hearing that there are not, muses "So perhaps he is not a vampire." > (Note for the nit-picky: no, there's no textev that the Gods were or > weren't involved in returning him as a vampire. It just seems odd that > they'd do it.) Loraan was a necromancer; he was working on exploring life-states. He may well have figured out how to change the life-state of his own soul such that he became an undead. To the left, it may have been the Jenoine and/or a rogue god who sent him back. > Another thing unexplained by the text is why vampires are treated as > fearsome creatures. We've never seen any instance of a vampire acting > other than he did in normal life. Generalizing from one example again. > And Loraan was an asshole on both before and after. We didn't see much of him before he died. Perhaps he was more of an asshole afterwards? And thinking about it, he wasn't really much more of an asshole than Vlad himself, at least back in the days when Vlad ran a Jhereg territory. > We've seen Sethra eat; we've never seen her nor any other > vampire drink blood. We don't even know if she does drink blood, or how much. Vlad asserts that Sethra "requires very little blood." From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 12 15:04:07 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:04:07 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Yep, there are undead besides Vampires. Recall that the Necromancer > raised parts of Kana's army when they attacked M's little outpost in > Lord of Castle Black. I suspect they were zombies, and not Vamps. Technically speaking, those were nothing more than animated corpses; automatons. Undead seems to imply some sentience and in at least some cases a soul that is trapped/stored in a way that prevents it from following its normal path to the afterlife. I tend to envision it as a body/soul link that is external rather than internal. Loraan was a necromancer, whose soul had already been ripped out of his body once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. It's always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of ward around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any case, he almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely caused him to become undead. Heck, for a necromancer there are probably some advantages to being dead when pursuing your vocation. I think we all pretty much assume Sethra's case based upon the statement by Verra in _Taltos_ that Morollan somehow succeeded in leaving the Halls that he would emerge into the "real world" as an undead. We know (or do we?) that she was sent back by the Lords of Judgement and so we apply what we've been told to conclude that she suffered the fate described. We don't really know what "types" of undead there are or what causes a being to become one type or another. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 15:08:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:08:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic > communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal > magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially > put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas > the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky > action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same > methods. > > Now watch Philip Hart smack me down for abusing the word "quantum". No, carry on. Though note that quantum entanglement (which I don't actually believe in, but whatever) doesn't allow communication. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 15:12:36 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:12:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > So, obviously Few words are likelier to provoke a riposte from me (in re Dragaera, anyway). > > the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it > > work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian > > difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same > > thing?) > > I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were > both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. I find this unconvincing. See the synonym/metonym discussion, plus would the referrers actually know? From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 15:33:39 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:33:39 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6E753.9000603@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >>On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> >>>So, obviously >>> >>> > >Few words are likelier to provoke a riposte from me (in re Dragaera, >anyway). > > Well, I suppose in Dragaera, the obvious things are the ones that should be the most suspect. And if I didn't want a response, I probably wouldn't bother posting here, anyway, so it's all to the good. >>>the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it >>>work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian >>>difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same >>>thing?) >>> >>> >>I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were >>both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. >> >> > >I find this unconvincing. See the synonym/metonym discussion, plus >would the referrers actually know? > > Perhaps I should have asked if there was an *obvious* difference between the terms? ;-) Re-reading /Yendi/ today, I noticed that he uses psionic about half the time, and psychic about half the time, usually in reference to telepathic communication. By the time of /Dragon/, however, when Vlad asks Daymar how he does his thing with the roomful of morganti weapons, the response is "Psychics", and "Psionics" does not appear at all. Now, Dragon basically surrounds Yendi (the meat is set before, the interludes are set after) but the novel itself was written in 1998, vs 1984 for Yendi. Basically, I'm thinking that Brust has simply decided to stop using "psionics" and go with "psychics" 100% of the time, perhaps to avoid confusion over the concepts. I guess we can see how well *that* worked. Just my $0.02. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 15:40:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:40:34 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >It can't? I thought I remembered Loiosh having trouble communicating >with Vlad on Greenaere. I'm almost positive Loiosh commented on the >difficulty of sensing *others* there, but I also thought he had >trouble communicating with Vlad when Vlad was in jail and Loiosh was >flying back for help. > My impression of that was that Loiosh was simply too tired from flying all that way to attempt to do any talking. (By the time Vlad wakes up from the Dreamgrass, Loiosh is already well on his way.) And we don't really know how distance normally affects a familiar/with relationship. The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the width of a single city are: #1) During the escapade on Greenaere #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how far away he and Rocza were during that period) None of these really answer the question, since Vlad doesn't *attempt* communication with Loiosh in any but the first example. There's also that recently-cited bit in /Issola/ where Vlad and Loiosh get "separated" but the distance is not so much measured in feet or miles as it is in planes of existence... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 15:40:47 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Note that it seems likely to me that any amorphia generation by an > >Easterner would likely result in a trip by any witness to an oubliette > >at best. That Vlad wasn't disappeared now strikes me as surprising - > >perhaps Aliera was able to argue that his soul is a sufficient excuse > >for the event and either the truth (doubtful) or some reasonable lie > >(also doubtful) was told to the Left Hand witnesses, probably along with > >a threat should anyone gossip. > > This assumes quite a few things... > > #1) That anyone in that room (other than Vlad and Aliera) had a clear idea > of what was happening at all. You're a professional sorcerer. When you were (your teacher was) young, a guy nearly blew up the world using ES, but fortunately the worst result beyond the immediate massive loss of life was an invasion by Es and plagues and internecine warfare. One day after work an E walks into your bar with one of the top five most famous people in the world at his side. He's got a mini-vulture on his shoulder. There's a melee, he points at one of your colleagues, a friend of yours zaps him but somehow he partly deflects the spell then blasts her with ES. The room starts to dissolve and you split, hide your tracks, and dine out on the story for a week. Later the pointed colleague turns up dead. In the meantime a bunch of people you talked to start getting antsy about an E wielding ES. They wonder: should we start a pogrom just in case? The Athyra begin work on a genetic spell that will kill all Es within a given radius, just in case. Then either a) a lot of people disappear b) you get a visit from the Empire explaining why E is an exception and inviting you to never mention it again or a). > #2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later. Doesn't matter that it's Vlad - see above. Plus, see above - who could fail to identify him? > #3) That the higher-ups in the Jhereg knew what amorphia was, how > incredibly dangerous it is to play around with, and somehow saw it as > their responsibility to take care of the potential danger. This seems 2/3 impossibly wrong and 3/3 irrelevant. Note also that in all likelihood the incident left noticeable traces in the ether and in the matter of the bar. Imagine Suzy Easterner wakes up one morning, turns a garbage heap into chaos, and splits. I would expect this would have incredible political and social repercussions. Ok, there's a good reason why Suzy has the power to destroy the world, so no reason to fear that Cindy or Sally or Sondra E. has that power, but someone will have to broadcast that reason and make everyone believe it, even the ones who think her soul ancestor Captain Shazam is a legend. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jan 12 15:50:58 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 16:10:13 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:10:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >You're a professional sorcerer. When you were (your teacher was) young, >a guy nearly blew up the world using ES, but fortunately the worst result >beyond the immediate massive loss of life was an invasion by Es and >plagues and internecine warfare. One day after work an E walks into your >bar with one of the top five most famous people in the world at his side. > > Actually, it was just Vlad and Aliera (who was freshly back from the Paths of the Dead (by Dragaeran terms, anyway) so she may not have been that well-known to the types of folks in that particular establishment). And they teleported in, so it was sudden and unexpected. >He's got a mini-vulture on his shoulder. There's a melee, he points at >one of your colleagues, a friend of yours zaps him but somehow he partly > > Vlad couldn't point at the time, he was completely immobilized. >deflects the spell then blasts her with ES. The room starts to dissolve >and you split, hide your tracks, and dine out on the story for a week. >Later the pointed colleague turns up dead. In the meantime a bunch of >people you talked to start getting antsy about an E wielding ES. They >wonder: should we start a pogrom just in case? The Athyra begin work >on a genetic spell that will kill all Es within a given radius, just in >case. Then either > >a) a lot of people disappear >b) you get a visit from the Empire explaining why E is an exception >and inviting you to never mention it again or a). > > Ummm.. Mass genocide against an entire population for the actions of one individual isn't something that is easily achieved in a free society. The population of Dragaera wouldn't put up with that. How would Morrolan, or Aliera or Sethra feel about that? Or, for that matter, how would the Empress react to that, given that her lover is an Easterner? Heck, even the death camps of the Nazis were called "Relocation camps" until after the Jews got onto the trains. (Meaining they had to sort of hide what they were doing, at least at first, to prevent a general revolt.) >>#2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later. >> >> > >Doesn't matter that it's Vlad - see above. Plus, see above - who >could fail to identify him? > > A bunch of freaked out Jhereg with no idea who he was or what he was doing who didn't notice him when he teleported in. I wouldn't count on reliable eyewitness testimony from any of 'em. >>#3) That the higher-ups in the Jhereg knew what amorphia was, how >>incredibly dangerous it is to play around with, and somehow saw it as >>their responsibility to take care of the potential danger. >> >> > >This seems 2/3 impossibly wrong and 3/3 irrelevant. Note also that >in all likelihood the incident left noticeable traces in the ether >and in the matter of the bar. > >Imagine Suzy Easterner wakes up one morning, turns a garbage heap >into chaos, and splits. I would expect this would have incredible >political and social repercussions. Ok, there's a good reason why >Suzy has the power to destroy the world, so no reason to fear that >Cindy or Sally or Sondra E. has that power, but someone will have >to broadcast that reason and make everyone believe it, even the >ones who think her soul ancestor Captain Shazam is a legend. > > But if Suzy is good friends with Sethra Lavode, who just happens to be friends with Khaavren, who just happens to be in charge of enforcing the laws in Adrilankha, maybe she gets overlooked? Maybe the evidence gets covered up? Especially when The-Powers-that-Be are given assurances from Sethra that such a thing won't happen again? And besides, who's going to believe that sweet little innocent Suzy (or, in this case, our disreputable, low-life Easterner plus jhereg) *really has* that power in the first place? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 16:14:14 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:14:14 -0800 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43C6F0D6.1050509@comcast.net> rone wrote: >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books > is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it > science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. > >I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's >another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. > > Historical Fiction? Romance Novels? Murder Mysteries? Sure, all of them *involve* some small amount of speculation, but they are not *centered* around a speculative premise. They're just fictional instances of things that actually happen all the time.(Or actually did happen, as in the first example.) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 16:41:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:41:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >You're a professional sorcerer. When you were (your teacher was) young, > >a guy nearly blew up the world using ES, but fortunately the worst result > >beyond the immediate massive loss of life was an invasion by Es and > >plagues and internecine warfare. One day after work an E walks into your > >bar with one of the top five most famous people in the world at his side. > > > > > Actually, it was just Vlad and Aliera (who was freshly back from the ^^^^??? > Paths of the Dead (by Dragaeran terms, anyway) so she may not have been > that well-known to the types of folks in that particular establishment). She's a Dragon. With golden hair and a winsome upturned nose that no one can forget. Oh, and a GW. > And they teleported in, so it was sudden and unexpected. You must not have heard any "guy walks into a bar" jokes. The suddenness makes it more likely to have been noticed. > > >He's got a mini-vulture on his shoulder. There's a melee, he points at > >one of your colleagues, a friend of yours zaps him but somehow he partly > > > > > Vlad couldn't point at the time, he was completely immobilized. Hence him pointing first, before he gets immobilized. That's how I remember events happening - Vlad pointing, Aliera swashbuckling, Vlad resting. Anyway, they've got memories, presumably there are ways of accessing them. Psionics, whatever. And regardless - "This E walked into the bar. He was wearing Jhereg colors and had an oyster on his shoulder and got zapped and then amorphia ate Jennalyn and I split." "Oyster?" "I don't know, it all happened fast, he was an E though, and the amorphia shot out of him like one of those alien things that grow in your stomach." "Uhh, maybe you mean the only male E working in the Jhereg, who's known to hang with Aliera and wear a pocket dragon like a parrot, depicted in this image here?" "Yeah, that's him." > Ummm.. Mass genocide against an entire population for the actions of one > individual isn't something that is easily achieved in a free society. A free society? And for that matter, given how recent 9/11 was, ... > The population of Dragaera wouldn't put up with that. How would > Morrolan, or Aliera or Sethra feel about that? Or, for that matter, how > would the Empress react to that, given that her lover is an Easterner? If your historic enemy/recent empire-corpse-vulture/current oppressed despised underclass suddenly shows signs of having world-destroying power, anything's possible. It's not as if StY's plans for the East don't in all likelihood involve what we'd conventionally consider war crimes. There would be a fight. But as was clear in the _T_/_P_ Uprising, Vlad's friends will slaughter any number of E in defense of the empire, even a token fly-swatting sort of defense. I wonder about the events of _A_ - how could Loraan/Istvaan not worry about being ESed to cinders? From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:01:00 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:01:00 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Loraan was a necromancer, whose soul had already been ripped out of his body > once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it > appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. You are misremembering. Vlad was the one who said "Take it up with Morrolan. Or rather with Blackwand." (when Kiera expresses surprise that Loraan had been operating after being attacked by Vlad and Morrolan) Vlad does not know for a fact that Loraan's soul was consumed by Blackwand, and neither do we. Vlad (and we) had reason to assume that it had been, since he was there in the melee, and when Vlad last saw Loraan, it was as a body with a large slash to the chest. However, Vlad never saw Blackwand actually strike Loraan, nor did he know Loraan's life-state at the point that any putative strike occured. > It's always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of > ward around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any > case, he almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely > caused him to become undead. I nearly think that this has been Speculated upon already. Although that article badly needs to be re-written. > > I think we all pretty much assume Sethra's case based upon the statement by > Verra in _Taltos_ that Morollan somehow succeeded in leaving the Halls that > he would emerge into the "real world" as an undead. We know (or do we?) that > she was sent back by the Lords of Judgement She claims as much in /Issola/. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 17:05:17 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:05:17 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >>Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> > ^^^^??? > > Sorry, thought I read "with the five most famous people in the empire...", my bad. >She's a Dragon. With golden hair and a winsome upturned nose that no one can forget. Oh, and a GW. > > >You must not have heard any "guy walks into a bar" jokes. > >The suddenness makes it more likely to have been noticed. > > Interview #1 (Male Jhegaala): So, there I was at the "Rusty Janos", having a drink and all of a sudden a bunch of people behind me stood up, blocking my view. Before I knew what was happening, this big glowing mass of, well, *something* starts spreading, and I decide it's a good time to check out what's going on on the other side of the city. Interview #2 (Female teckla): I'm sorry, officer, I must have fainted, and I don't remember a thing. Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. Interview #4 (Male Teckla): I saw the whole thing. First this gang of Jhereg easterners teleport in, and start throwing knives at everyone, then this group of Left-Hand Jhereg start throwing lightning-bolts randomly into the crowd from the other side of the room. Before I can blink twice, half the sorceresses are dead, the Jhereg all get killed, and one of the sorceresses starts melting away the center of the room in some sort of cloudy mush. That's when I ran out of there. Interview #5 (Female Jhereg, Left-Hand): <> >Hence him pointing first, before he gets immobilized. That's how I >remember events happening - Vlad pointing, Aliera swashbuckling, Vlad >resting. > > Ah. You're thinking of when *Aliera* pointed out the Female Jhereg to Vlad. Then she left, chasing the one she had pointed at, just after another Sorceress attacks Vlad, immobilizing him. He then pulls out the Elder Sorcery on the /second/ sorceress. > >A free society? > >And for that matter, given how recent 9/11 was, ... > > Still wouldn't convince the Empress to destroy an entire race out of hand. Especially when she's dating one of them. And yes, Dragaeran's have a relatively free society. Stratified, certainly, but even Teckla don't generally get arrested for having run away from their masters; it seems pretty darn liberal for a feudal civilization. >If your historic enemy/recent empire-corpse-vulture/current oppressed >despised underclass suddenly shows signs of having world-destroying power, >anything's possible. > Well, anything's *possible*. I just don't see it as likely. >It's not as if StY's plans for the East don't in >all likelihood involve what we'd conventionally consider war crimes. > > Ah, but that's during a foreign war fought way far away--and, I might add, not one that the then-Empress was willing to fight. And they *still* wouldn't be able to slaughter the entire species without doing some pretty serious explaining. (Would Imperial Dragon soliders consider it honarable to slaughter countless millions of civilian men, women and children?) >There would be a fight. But as was clear in the _T_/_P_ Uprising, >Vlad's friends will slaughter any number of E in defense of the empire, >even a token fly-swatting sort of defense. > > Fighting back against an army of pitch-fork wielding rabble? Yes. Killing an entire species against the possibility of some vague threat posed by a single individual that Sethra Lavode has promised will not be a problem? Not so much. >I wonder about the events of _A_ - how could Loraan/Istvaan not worry >about being ESed to cinders? > Perhaps the information was somehow supressed? Maybe? Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:07:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:07:41 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: . > > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > width of a single city are: > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ Are you sure about this one? I seem to recall that Vlad stayed with Loiosh while Savn worked on him, and took Loiosh with him when he went into Northport to confront Timmer. Indeed, a plot point hinges on Loiosh's presence. Rocza did the visual scouting for them, relayed to Vlad by Loiosh, since Loiosh was not up to actually flying at that point. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:11:23 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:11:23 -0800 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, rone wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books > is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it > science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. > > I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's > another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. > How about "subjunctive fiction"? From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 17:14:11 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:14:11 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C6FEE3.4040005@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >. > > >>The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the >>width of a single city are: >> >>#1) During the escapade on Greenaere >>#2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ >> >> > >Are you sure about this one? I seem to recall that Vlad stayed with >Loiosh while Savn worked on him, and took Loiosh with him when he went >into Northport to confront Timmer. Indeed, a plot point hinges on >Loiosh's presence. > >Rocza did the visual scouting for them, relayed to Vlad by Loiosh, >since Loiosh was not up to actually flying at that point. > I thought I remembered that Vlad made at least one trip out of the house on his own while Loiosh stayed home. But reviewing it, it looks like he did go with him, just not in very good shape. Oh well, strike one more example off the list. (And we can see how rare it really is for Vlad & Loiosh to be apart from each other...) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:25:15 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:25:15 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): > > I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. > It occurrs to me that this is the explanation that is most likely to propagate. After all, which is more likely - that Aliera e'Kieron; * known descendent of Adron e'Kieron (famed for messing about with amorphia, with Disasterous effects); *of the e'Kieron line (known for having the ability to mess about with amorphia); * with a reputation for recklessness, ferocity, a disdain for rules and laws, and an interest in Elder Sorcery and messing about with amorphia; *closely associated with the abovementioned Disaster due to said interest in messing about with amorphia; has been messing about with amorphia -- or that some random Easterner has spontaneously gained the ability to mess about with amorphia? Anyone who hears about the incident is going to focus on the presence of Aliera, and no doubt say "Oy. /Her/, again. Well, at least she didn't destroy Adrilankha." If Vlad gets mentioned at all, it might be as "I wonder what was so special about him that she thought it was worth risking the creation of a new Sea of Chaos?" From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:50:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:50:05 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > width of a single city are: > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ > #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how > far away he and Rocza were during that period) > > None of these really answer the question, since Vlad doesn't *attempt* > communication with Loiosh in any but the first example. #4 the first time Vlad visited Dzur Mountain, in /Taltos/, and I think when Vlad visits Verra in /Phoenix/. But your comment still applies. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:54:56 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:54:56 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121754j21cc528bs11950f6c57c25817@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it > appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. It's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In reference to Loraan? I don't remember that. Or are you referring to the Paths of the Dead? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:56:43 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:56:43 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121754j21cc528bs11950f6c57c25817@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0601121754j21cc528bs11950f6c57c25817@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121756ne0df3f5of44776b05845bbb7@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > In reference to Loraan? I don't remember that. Or are you referring to > the Paths of the Dead? Never mind. That'll teach me to post before finishing the thread. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 18:08:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:08:56 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > > width of a single city are: > > > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ > > #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how > > far away he and Rocza were during that period) > > > > None of these really answer the question, since Vlad doesn't *attempt* > > communication with Loiosh in any but the first example. > > #4 the first time Vlad visited Dzur Mountain, in /Taltos/, Hm. And also Castle Black, before that, I see. > and I think when Vlad visits Verra in /Phoenix/. > Which time? Loiosh was with him the first time, and I don't have the time just now to search out the others. > But your comment still applies. Well, yes. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 00:07:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:07:08 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > and I think when Vlad visits Verra in /Phoenix/. > > > > Which time? Loiosh was with him the first time, and I don't have the > time just now to search out the others. > Well, since I did the research just now, I can verify that Loiosh went with Vlad every time that he was in Verra's Halls. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 06:21:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:07 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 03:04 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >Loraan was a necromancer, whose soul had already been ripped out of his body >once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it >appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. It's >always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of ward >around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any case, he >almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely caused him >to become undead. Heck, for a necromancer there are probably some advantages >to being dead when pursuing your vocation. > >I think we all pretty much assume Sethra's case based upon the statement by >Verra in _Taltos_ that Morollan somehow succeeded in leaving the Halls that >he would emerge into the "real world" as an undead. We know (or do we?) that >she was sent back by the Lords of Judgement and so we apply what we've been >told to conclude that she suffered the fate described. We don't really know >what "types" of undead there are or what causes a being to become one type >or another. Actually, I believe Verra said that Morrolan would "feel his life ebbing away..." and that they "might succeed in bringing a corpse out of the paths..." To me, this doesn't say that he would become undead... It says he would come out just plain dead. Majikjon "There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With *all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his clothes and look for loose change." --MM From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 06:36:24 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:36:24 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 05:01 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >> It's always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of >> ward around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any >> case, he almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely >> caused him to become undead. > >I nearly think that this has been Speculated upon already. Although >that article badly needs to be re-written. That's Speculation:Loraan, isn't it? Yeah, that one kind of grew out of the "Talk" page and was never really formatted very well. Go ahead and tackle it, if you like, or I can get it if you're not interested/don't have time. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060113/ce122b12/attachment.htm From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 06:58:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:58:17 -0800 Subject: Fw: Not a witch? Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson 01/13/06 06:29 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc Subject Re: Not a witch? On 1/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> come to be. I would venture to guess that may be because he was very young (in his >> early-to-mid twenties?) at the time and still had the brash arrogance of youth. > >My impression was that he thought he was going to his death and didn't Yes, but I'd wager if he had to make a similar trip today he wouldn't be willing to leave Loiosh behind. Of course, the fact that he has a Great Weapon and a bunch of powerful friends makes something of a difference, as well, I suppose. >want to take Loiosh down with him. Note that Vlad is *still* in his >twenties, the way I count time. Checking Alex's speculative timeline, I see he estimates Vlad's age at 18 during Taltos, 21-22 and by the time of Phoenix. We don't really have a clear idea of how many years he's been wandering the countryside, but Alex speculates he's 26 or so by the time of Issola. Now, I might take issue with some of this (My impression is that Vlad was out in the world for 5-6 years by the time of Athyra) but this would still make him only barely 30 years old. Funny. I'd always thought of him as close to 30 by the time he met Cawti. The only way this works is if his birth gets pushed back earlier than 222, but this doesn't really jive with what Noish-Pa tells Vlad about the riots of 221, so... Majikjon From johne.cook at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 08:13:14 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:13:14 -0600 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, rone wrote: > I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's > another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. > > rone Speculative Fiction has the right initials going for it, if nothing else. ; ) -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 11:59:17 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:59:17 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >"There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With >*all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his >clothes and look for loose change." --MM > > > Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 12:01:52 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:01:52 -0700 Subject: Fw: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C80730.6050006@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Checking Alex's speculative timeline, I see he estimates Vlad's age at 18 >during Taltos, 21-22 and by the time of Phoenix. > >We don't really have a clear idea of how many years he's been wandering >the countryside, but Alex speculates he's 26 or so by the time of Issola. > >Now, I might take issue with some of this (My impression is that Vlad was >out in the world for 5-6 years by the time of Athyra) but this would still >make him only barely 30 years old. > >Funny. I'd always thought of him as close to 30 by the time he met Cawti. >The only way this works is if his birth gets pushed back earlier than 222, >but this doesn't really jive with what Noish-Pa tells Vlad about the riots >of 221, so... > > I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with particular known and unknown family members. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 13 12:10:32 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:10:32 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation References: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >"There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With > >*all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his > >clothes and look for loose change." --MM > > > > > > > Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? I almost think he has. . . or at least seen the movie too many times. Of course the book is superior, as they usually are, but it also helped clear up a few things that confused me in the movie. (Inigo and Westly's duel, for example) Jeff - is also no one of consequence From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 12:12:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:12:17 -0800 Subject: How's Noish-Pa these days? In-Reply-To: <43C80730.6050006@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 12:01 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Fw: Not a witch? >I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality >some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his >absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with >particular known and unknown family members. One of my notions is that Noish-Pa ends up being a better administrator of Szurke County than most other Dragaeran nobility. I get these visions of him lowering all his Teckla traditional tribute percentages to a mere fraction, resulting in a happy, healthy, prosperous region with a booming population and high tax revenues due to a robust economy. He'd probably pour all this extra wealth back into benefits for the commmoners, kicking the cycle into ever higher spirals. When Vlad comes back to claim his estate, he may find that he's become *very* rich indeed. But hey, there's always the chance that a jealous neighbor in a nearby county might try to stir up trouble for him, so things may not be all sweetness and light. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 12:14:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:14:08 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 11:59 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >"There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With >*all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his >clothes and look for loose change." --MM > > Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? Not nearly as many times as I've seen the movie... Say only about 3-4 times. Majikjon Billy Crystal as Miracle Max is, I think, his finest performance. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 12:19:31 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:19:31 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43C80B53.1060101@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >> Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? >I almost think he has. . . > >or at least seen the movie too many times. Of course the book is superior, >as they usually are, but it also helped clear up a few things that confused >me in the movie. (Inigo and Westly's duel, for example) > >Jeff > > I've heard that said before - but as far as successful transition from novel to movie - /*_The Princess Bride_*/ is pretty close to the top. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 12:20:40 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:20:40 -0700 Subject: How's Noish-Pa these days? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C80B98.9060908@brazee.net> I wonder why it is that when I read Jon's posts using Thunderbird, I get a real tiny font that I need to cut and paste into another editor to read. Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > *Howard Brazee * > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > 01/13/06 12:01 PM > > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: Fw: Not a witch? > > > > > > > > >I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality > >some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his > >absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with > >particular known and unknown family members. > > One of my notions is that Noish-Pa ends up being a better > administrator of Szurke County than most other Dragaeran nobility. > > I get these visions of him lowering all his Teckla traditional tribute > percentages to a mere fraction, resulting in a happy, healthy, > prosperous region with a booming population and high tax revenues due > to a robust economy. > > He'd probably pour all this extra wealth back into benefits for the > commmoners, kicking the cycle into ever higher spirals. > > When Vlad comes back to claim his estate, he may find that he's become > *very* rich indeed. > > But hey, there's always the chance that a jealous neighbor in a nearby > county might try to stir up trouble for him, so things may not be all > sweetness and light. > > Majikjon > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 12:44:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:44:50 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <43C80B53.1060101@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 12:19 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >Jeff G. wrote: > >>or at least seen the movie too many times. Of course the book is superior, >>as they usually are, but it also helped clear up a few things that confused >>me in the movie. (Inigo and Westly's duel, for example) >> >I've heard that said before - but as far as successful transition from >novel to movie - /*_The Princess Bride_*/ is pretty close to the top. It's because William Goldman is about the best screenplay writer there is. Oh, excuse me, I meant "S. Morgenstern". Majikjon (Helping to show that SKZB is neither the first, nor the last, to attribute authorship to a fictional character...) From scs at di.org Fri Jan 13 13:30:06 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:30:06 -0500 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:22:36AM -0800, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Steve Simmons > >The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who > >are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is > >undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. > Are all undead Vampires? Well, yes, that's my question. My paragraph above might possibly have been followed with the comment ''...and we all know neither Vlad nor the Common Man are never wrong'' but that seemed to be driving the point home a bit too firmly. > Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? Good question. Was Keira a wraith when she wasn't dead but didn't have a body? Is Keiron a wriath? The arguement could be made that one or both are wraiths in a Dragaeran sense. And the Necromancer raised up a bunch of walking dead soldiers in 'Viscount,' IMHO they were close enough to zombies for me. > And do we know that Loraan was a Vampire? > Is the Necromancer a Vampire? Cf 'that's my question' above. > I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and > that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book > this is from. Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 13:38:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:38:17 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 01:30 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, 'Dragaera List' Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >> I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and >> that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book >> this is from. > >Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? I think it's that quote from /Athyra/ that Davdi alluded to earlier--when Vlad is asking Savn about any unexplained bloodlettings in the area, in reference to Loraan. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 13:52:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:52:02 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On 1/13/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:22:36AM -0800, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Steve Simmons > > > And do we know that Loraan was a Vampire? > > Is the Necromancer a Vampire? > > Cf 'that's my question' above. > > > I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and > > that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book > > this is from. > > Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? Nearly. Vlad referring to Loraan, and therefore demonstrating that at least Vlad thinks that it is possible to be an undead but not a vampire: /Athyra/: "So perhaps he is not a vampire. Although that proves nothing. Sethra is a vampire, but she still eats and drinks, and requires very little blood." Vlad, referring to Sethra Lavode and the Necromancer, therefore demonstrating that he thinks that they are both undead. /Issola/: "The two pale, black-clad undead women regarded each other-thin faces, ancient eyes; sort of a strange mirror image." Vlad, implying that as far as he knows, the Necromancer is not a vampire; that is, he would have phrased it differently if he thought she is a vampire, rather than just looking like one: /Issola/: "In addition, though I knew Sethra was a vampire, the Necromancer looked like one-so pale, wasted, drawn; like someone in the last stages of some horrible disease." From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 14:18:55 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:18:55 -0800 Subject: META: Mail and mailer configuration Message-ID: On 1/13/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder why it is that when I read Jon's posts using Thunderbird, I get > a real tiny font that I need to cut and paste into another editor to read. > When Jon sends mail from stream.com, his mailer software (Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4) adds an HTML attachment, in which the font is change by a tag setting the size to "1" (font size=1 face="sans-serif")(which is indeed small). This attachment is stripped out by the mailing list software (X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5), so those of us who are not direct recipients only see the text component of the e-mail. However, when he responds to someone directly, that person sees the e-mail that contains the HTML attachment, and the HTML is displayed by default. options: *Thunderbird can be configured to show text only (Menu->View->Message Body As -> Plain Text) *Thunderbird can increase the font size (Menu->View->Text Size->Increase)(or a keystroke: Ctrl++) *Jon could make sure that the only recipient is the list, so that the attachment is always stripped before anyone receives it *Jon could change the settings on Lotus Notes so that it only sends plain text anyway, or at least, so that the attachment is in a less tiny font. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 14:45:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:45:59 -0800 Subject: META: Mail and mailer configuration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 02:18 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject META: Mail and mailer configuration >On 1/13/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> I wonder why it is that when I read Jon's posts using Thunderbird, I get >> a real tiny font that I need to cut and paste into another editor to read. >> > >When Jon sends mail from stream.com, his mailer software (Lotus Notes >Release 6.5.4) adds an HTML attachment, in which the font is change by >a tag setting the size to "1" (font size=1 face="sans-serif")(which is >indeed small). This attachment is stripped out by the mailing list >software (X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5), so those of >us who are not direct recipients only see the text component of the >e-mail. However, when he responds to someone directly, that person >sees the e-mail that contains the HTML attachment, and the HTML is >displayed by default. > >options: > >*Thunderbird can be configured to show text only >(Menu->View->Message Body As -> Plain Text) >*Thunderbird can increase the font size > (Menu->View->Text Size->Increase)(or a keystroke: Ctrl++) >*Jon could make sure that the only recipient is the list, so that the >attachment is always stripped before anyone receives it >*Jon could change the settings on Lotus Notes so that it only sends >plain text anyway, or at least, so that the attachment is in a less >tiny font. Another option would be to enable redundant mailings in your list options, (where the list will send you a copy of every message, regardless of whether the original was also sent directly to you, or not) and then only read the messages that come through the list, rather than the ones directly from the sender. Incidentally, I have already upped the default text size in my mailer so this should be better in future from *me*, but I've noticed this same behavior from others, as well, so if you want to protect your eyes, you might want to look at one of these other alternatives. Majikjon (Who would be using Thunderbird at work if he had any choice... ;-) ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060113/940bc43b/attachment.html From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 03:19:33 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 06:19:33 -0500 Subject: How's Noish-Pa these days? In-Reply-To: References: <43C80730.6050006@brazee.net> Message-ID: Well, I highly suspect Morrolan, Aliera, and Sethra would dissaude them. On 1/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Howard Brazee > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/13/06 12:01 PM > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: Fw: Not a witch? > > > > > >I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality > >some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his > >absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with > >particular known and unknown family members. > > One of my notions is that Noish-Pa ends up being a better administrator of > Szurke County than most other Dragaeran nobility. > > I get these visions of him lowering all his Teckla traditional tribute > percentages to a mere fraction, resulting in a happy, healthy, prosperous > region with a booming population and high tax revenues due to a robust > economy. > > He'd probably pour all this extra wealth back into benefits for the > commmoners, kicking the cycle into ever higher spirals. > > When Vlad comes back to claim his estate, he may find that he's become > *very* rich indeed. > > But hey, there's always the chance that a jealous neighbor in a nearby > county might try to stir up trouble for him, so things may not be all > sweetness and light. > > Majikjon > > > > > From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 14 06:05:54 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:05:54 -0700 Subject: META: Mail and mailer configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C90542.4050101@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Another option would be to enable redundant mailings in your list options, >(where the list will send you a copy of every message, regardless of >whether the original was also sent directly to you, or not) and then only >read the messages that come through the list, rather than the ones >directly from the sender. > > > That would be irritating - but not as irritating as the small text. I started looking for instructions on how to do this before I noticed the following: >Incidentally, I have already upped the default text size in my mailer so >this should be better in future from *me*, but I've noticed this same >behavior from others, as well, so if you want to protect your eyes, you >might want to look at one of these other alternatives. > >Majikjon > > > It worked. I read your message nicely. >(Who would be using Thunderbird at work if he had any choice... ;-) ) > > I use Thunderbird at work for my home e-mail, but use Outlook exchange server for my work e-mail. The exchange server has a few advantages: 1. E-mail is kept on the exchange server, so I can access already read messages using the web. I can only access unread messages on my provider's server. 2. Outlook's calendar is integrated well - Mozilla's Thunderbird isn't. 3. Various address lists are available. Quoting is mixed. In the new version of Outlook, I can get an HTML message, try to reply, but can't get rid of the quote line to add my own message. I sometimes give up , cut and paste the header fields, and start a new message. But Thunderbird's quoting also is bad, in that I can't select some text, hit reply, and then find only the selected text quoted. I've thought about using one of my newsreaders, which do this better - but e-mail is important enough that I want a common standard, separate from news, that will allow me to retrieve important saved messages from backups to my next computer. From scs at di.org Sat Jan 14 08:27:09 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:27:09 -0500 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 01:52:02PM -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/13/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? > > Nearly. [ details elided ] Excellent. Thanks. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 14 15:42:28 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:42:28 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> While working on the Lyorn Records wikicity, I've compiled a few relatively minor questions about certain characters that it would help to have answers to, just for the purposes of clarification. Steve, if you've got the time an inclination, it'd be awesome to know the answers to the following: 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both equally valid? 2. What is the gender of the Chreotha "Deppian" who is referred to by both genders in /Paths of the Dead/? The character is referred to as a "she" at the top of the page, then as a "he" a few paragraphs later. Chapter 14, Page 133, paperback. (Or were the Countess and her spouse perhaps both present at this meeting with K?na?) 3. Is Grassfog's sister named "Tsira" (as it appears in the text of /Sethra Lavode/) or "Tsani" (as it appears in the front matter)? I'm guessing that "Tsani" is a typo, since the name "Tsira" is used consitantly in the body of the book, but I didn't know if one of these might be a nickname or something. 4. Cwelli and Olani; Savn's parents. Which is which? (I'll completely understand if you don't care to answer this one, as it seems to be deliberately vague in the story itself--but it would be an enormous benefit to the "Dramatis Personae" page on the wikicity to able to to identify them a little more clearly. Thanks tremendously for any response. Jon Lincicum, aka Majikjon From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 15 13:58:52 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:58:52 EST Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) Message-ID: <143.546bccef.30fc1f9c@aol.com> Log0n5150 at hotmail.com wrote on 1/9/2006 4:18:54 PM >Well, she has a way. That's as good as a plan, isn't it? Heh, did you get the DVD yet? From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 14:02:07 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:02:07 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, that would start the rumors! ...too bad Steve's already said Kieron and Aliera will conceive Devera. Otherwise Vlad could do it. It'd be deliciously ironic. On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > If Vlad gets mentioned at all, it might be as "I wonder what was so > special about him that she thought it was worth risking the creation > of a new Sea of Chaos?" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060115/5cba7472/attachment.htm From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 15 14:49:18 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:49:18 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CAD16E.1010609@comcast.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >Oh, that would start the rumors! > >...too bad Steve's already said Kieron and Aliera will conceive Devera. >Otherwise Vlad could do it. It'd be deliciously ironic. > > No no, that doesn't work. Otherwise, Devera and Vlad Norathar can't hook up later on. Majikjon From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Sun Jan 15 17:29:39 2006 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:29:39 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly Message-ID: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> Two questions folks, and apologies if either of them have been recently addressed on the list--it's been way too busy for me to keep up with, and topic drift has made subject lines not much use. On topic first: Am I wrong in thinking that Dragaera, especially pre-interregnum, seems to share a lot of traits with France just before 1789? The thought has passed my mind before, but it particularly struck me recently while reading a book on the Revolution that included a brief description of the situation just beforehand--with wildly varying systems of measurement, laws, internal tariffs and customs, and so on, throughout the kingdom. Less on topic: Any word on Steve's Firefly/Serenity novel lately? I recently read a bit of an interview in which Whedon basically said that he was done with the franchise... but hey, novels could fly, maybe? Surely they don't take as much money to produce as a series or film. Thanks all! Back to your regularly scheduled rampant speculation. :) N. "No man - the point is making a nice comfy home, getting a whole bunch of weed together with your friends, and eating your face off. THAT is hobbit heaven." -- faethe, fark.com From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 20:17:10 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:17:10 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> References: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: Read Leo Tolstoy's book on the Russian Revolution. It is even more similar. On 1/15/06, Noah Stacy wrote: > > Two questions folks, and apologies if either of them have been recently > addressed on the list--it's been way too busy for me to keep up with, > and topic drift has made subject lines not much use. > > On topic first: Am I wrong in thinking that Dragaera, especially > pre-interregnum, seems to share a lot of traits with France just before > 1789? The thought has passed my mind before, but it particularly struck > me recently while reading a book on the Revolution that included a > brief description of the situation just beforehand--with wildly varying > systems of measurement, laws, internal tariffs and customs, and so on, > throughout the kingdom. > > Less on topic: Any word on Steve's Firefly/Serenity novel lately? I > recently read a bit of an interview in which Whedon basically said that > he was done with the franchise... but hey, novels could fly, maybe? > Surely they don't take as much money to produce as a series or film. > > Thanks all! Back to your regularly scheduled rampant speculation. :) > > N. > "No man - the point is making a nice comfy home, getting a whole bunch > of weed together with your friends, and eating your face off. THAT is > hobbit heaven." -- faethe, fark.com > > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 15 21:57:03 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:57:03 EST Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly Message-ID: <140.53734e07.30fc8faf@aol.com> nstacy at cinci.rr.com wrote on 1/15/2006 8:30:19 PM >Less on topic: Any word on Steve's Firefly/Serenity novel lately? I >recently read a bit of an interview in which Whedon basically said that >he was done with the franchise... but hey, novels could fly, maybe? >Surely they don't take as much money to produce as a series or film No word yet on the Firefly/Serenity novel that Steve has written. Joss Whedon is not done with the franchise. At the very least, he is going to be writing more Firefly/Serenity comic books for Dark Horse comics. Joss has said a sequel is all up to the Serenity DVD sales now. The franchise is growing. Now there are Hot Topic store Serenity T-shirts, Dark Horse Serenity Zippo lighters and Serenity "model" ornaments. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 06:27:28 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:27:28 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) References: <143.546bccef.30fc1f9c@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:58 PM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) > Log0n5150 at hotmail.com wrote on 1/9/2006 4:18:54 PM > > >Well, she has a way. That's as good as a plan, isn't it? > > Heh, did you get the DVD yet? My mother in law, bless her heart, bought it for me the day it came out. I believe there have been one or two days since then that myself or my kids have not watched it. Jeff -also has the Fruity Oaty Bar jingle as a cell phone ringtone From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 16 07:59:09 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:59:09 -0800 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <140.53734e07.30fc8faf@aol.com> Message-ID: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 08:21:58 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:21:58 -0700 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly References: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Dragaera, France, and Firefly > My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, > borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. > It helps, but it is not mandatory. The movie does a good job of standing on it's own. Jeff From usagigoya at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 11:30:57 2006 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:30:57 +0000 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after the end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and numbered (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay store. As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition at $8.00 each plus shipping. >W. Paul Ganley Ebay store listing: > >Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >Copyright 2005 by Steven Brust >published by W. Paul Ganley: Publisher >and the Buffalo Fantasy League > >BFL CHAPBOOK #4 >This is the fourth chapbook produced featuring the guests of honor at >Eeriecon (the 2006 guests of honor at Eeriecon are Harry Turtledove, Tanya >Huff, and Esther Friesner.). Last year's (with Niven, Lumley, and Bishop) >is nearly sold out. They are published in editions of about 150 numbered >copies, with the first 20 or 30 being dedicated for hard cover binding. >They are signed by all three contributors. > >This new chapbook features: >KLAVA WITH HONEY by STEVEN BRUST >WHAT SLEEPS IN THE SHALLOWS BELONGS TO THE DEEP by JULIE CZERNEDA >AN INCIDENT AT THE LUNCHEON OF THE BOATING PARTY, by ALLEN M. STEELE. > >Because Mr. Brust was unable to attend the convention because of illness, >he graciously permitted us to send the copies to him for his signature. >That's why this title is only now being offered on my eBay store. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8341034245QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE-HC-copy_W0QQitemZ8354785208QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >This chapbook also features a wraparound cover and three interior >illustrations by Charles Momberger, the artist who also did the cover for >Chapbook #3. > >If you are interested in one of the $50 hardbound copies, please email me >to that effect and I will put a copy on eBay just for you. Expensive? Yes, >but these are collectors' items, and the markup is actually only a factor >of two, much less than most books in your favorite bookstore. > >By the way, half of any profits on this project will go to the Buffalo >Fantasy League to support next year's EERIECON. > > > >>From: Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A >>Prologue by Steven Brust >>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:32:37 +0000 >> >>On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>> >>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in >>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>> >>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >> >> >>Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) Specifically, >>I'd >>hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. >> >>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed >>/ >>>mentioned on the list before. >> >> >>Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's been a >>long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have been >>mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). >> >>PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>chapbooks >>>with "A Dream of Passion" >>> >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Steve Hubbell" >>>To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >>>Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>> >>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in >>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>> >>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>> >>>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed >>>/ >>>mentioned on the list before. >>> >>>BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON CHAPBOOK 4. >>>USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First >>>Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J Near >>>Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What Sleeps in >>>the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the >>>Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) >>>USD 50.00 >>>Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 >>>http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml >>> >>>Thanks..... >>> >>>PS >>>I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks >>>with "A Dream of Passion" From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Mon Jan 16 11:53:35 2006 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:53:35 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <95218ce48215fe25a0dcee45d4c4216f@cinci.rr.com> The series is IMO better than the film--more time to really dig into the characters and all that good stuff. The film is worth watching, however, and I do know of at least one person who watched it without knowledge of the series that did enjoy it. On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Scott Schultz wrote: > My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should > beg, > borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. > > > N. "You were Marlon Brando, I was Steve McQueen. You were K.Y. Jelly, I was Vaseline. You were the father of modern medicine, I was Mr. Clean. You where the whore and the beast of Babylon, I was Rin Tin Tin." --Leonard Cohen, "Is This What You Wanted" From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Mon Jan 16 12:00:24 2006 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:00:24 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Dragaera, France, and Firefly Message-ID: <4edf6104a0eab34758936d2e86e210e9@cinci.rr.com> Crap. Forgot to Reply All, as usual. Begin forwarded message: > From: Noah Stacy > Date: January 16, 2006 2:57:02 PM EST > To: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > Subject: Re: Dragaera, France, and Firefly > > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:57 AM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> >> >> Joss Whedon is not done with the franchise. At the very least, he >> is going to be writing more Firefly/Serenity comic books for Dark >> Horse comics. Joss has said a sequel is all up to the Serenity DVD >> sales >> now. >> >> The franchise is growing. Now there are Hot Topic store Serenity >> T-shirts, >> Dark Horse Serenity Zippo lighters and Serenity "model" ornaments. >> ______________ > > Yay! I really do just want the story to live on in some > fashion--preferably not films, actually, but TV, comix, novels... > whatever works. > > On the other hand, this might mean I have to actually go inside a Hot > Topic. Scary! > > N. > ----- > "One moment, please. Whom did you wish to see?" > Degarmo spun on his heel and looked at me wonderingly. "Did he say > 'whom'?" > "Yeah, but don't hit him," I said. "There is such a word." > Degarmo licked his lips. "I knew there was," he said. "I often > wondered where they kept it." > -- Raymond Chandler, _The Lady in the Lake_ > > N. "When Johnny Cash comes into play, all *weak-ass music*must immediately be discarded. All *pretenders* are permanently tapped. Any player who posesses *Toby Keith* must set themselves on fire." --Cosmic_Music, fark.com From tsarren at alyra.org Mon Jan 16 12:23:09 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:23:09 -0600 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <140.53734e07.30fc8faf@aol.com> <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060116202308.GX1622@Durandal> On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 07:59:09AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, > borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. I recommend it; there is a lot of character development in the series. Some things I cannot mention because of spoilage in the movie have much more impact if you've watched the series first. Kat From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 12:36:39 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:36:39 -0700 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hubbell" To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after the > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and numbered > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay store. > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition at > $8.00 each plus shipping. > 14 left now. Jeff - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 12:43:03 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:43:03 -0700 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff G." To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Hubbell" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM > Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after > the > > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to > > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > numbered > > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay > store. > > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition > at > > $8.00 each plus shipping. > > > 14 left now. > > Jeff > - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . Addendum: Apparently this was meant to be, the price with shipping was $9.60, and the amount in my PayPal account was $9.61 Interesting. . . Jeff - is not nearly as creeped out by this as his wife would be. From shawnb at stanford.edu Mon Jan 16 13:33:08 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:33:08 -0800 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060116213330.ED7F1E9425@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jeff G. > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:37 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Hubbell" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM > Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 > seconds after > the > > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers > (and Vlad) to > > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > numbered > > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook > through his ebay > store. > > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the > standard edition > at > > $8.00 each plus shipping. > > > 14 left now. > > Jeff > - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . 10 left now Shawn From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jan 16 14:49:09 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:49:09 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> Jon Lincicum wrote: > While working on the Lyorn Records wikicity, I've compiled a few > relatively minor questions about certain characters that it would help > to have answers to, just for the purposes of clarification. > > Steve, if you've got the time an inclination, it'd be awesome to know > the answers to the following: > > 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) or > "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both > equally valid? > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then Castlerock. > 2. What is the gender of the Chreotha "Deppian" who is referred to by > both genders in /Paths of the Dead/? The character is referred to as > a "she" at the top of the page, then as a "he" a few paragraphs later. > Chapter 14, Page 133, paperback. > > (Or were the Countess and her spouse perhaps both present at this > meeting with K?na?) > They were both present. > 3. Is Grassfog's sister named "Tsira" (as it appears in the text of > /Sethra Lavode/) or "Tsani" (as it appears in the front matter)? I'm > guessing that "Tsani" is a typo, since the name "Tsira" is used > consitantly in the body of the book, but I didn't know if one of these > might be a nickname or something. > "Tsani" is a typo, I think. Or maybe it's a nickname. Yeah, I like that. I planned it all along. > 4. Cwelli and Olani; Savn's parents. Which is which? (I'll completely > understand if you don't care to answer this one, as it seems to be > deliberately vague in the story itself--but it would be an enormous > benefit to the "Dramatis Personae" page on the wikicity to able to to > identify them a little more clearly. > Sorry. From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jan 16 08:39:36 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:39:36 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CBCC46.1CFF@ecity.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > Vlad is not the first Easterner to learn sorcery. He's surely not the first > to learn of Elder Sorcery. If manipulating amorphia is an innate ability of > Easterners, I'd think that would be common knowledge and that the place of > Easterners in Dragaeran society would be quite a bit different than it > currently is. > I didn't mean "sorcery that uses raw amorphia sans Orb", I meant creating raw amorphia with apparently nothing but pure willpower. Given that if Aliera hadn't been around, said raw amorphia would have eaten Vlad since he was too tired to do anything to get out of its way, there's no reason to believe it would become common knowledge - first, most Easterners wouldn't think to try it (which makes it hard to have the necessary willpower behind it), and second, if someone did try it and it worked, very good odds that the amorphia would eat the Easterner who did it, which makes it hard to practice, or convince the friends of the late Easterners to try it themselves. I suppose I'm kinda coming off the idea that Aliera's reciting of the role of the Jenoine in creating Easterners and Dragaerans is colored by her pride that of course, e'Kierons are the best line, Dragons are the best House, and Dragaerans are better than Easterners. If you wonder if maybe the Jenoine did find Easterners interesting enough in themselves to tinker with, as opposed to just being a control so they could see how much better the new and improved Dragons were compared to Easterners, the question becomes what interested them? And the Jenoine seem to be mostly interested in getting control of amorphia. Second, why would they add the ability to create raw amorphia to a line of lab humans, when apparently they can't do it themselves? Admittedly, the Jenoine are exceedingly mysterious, but maybe the reason is that the Easterners had the ability in potentia, and the Jenoine were trying to figure out how it worked so they could do it to themselves (or at least control some tame pets who could do it for them), rather than that they knew how to do it and for some mysterious reason decided to see what it would do if they added the ability to a lab human line, even though they didn't want it for themselves. So, assuming Jenoine aren't idiots, maybe the reason almost all Dragaerans can't create raw amorphia is because they deliberately turned that ability off, while they experimented with various adding various Dragaeran animal genes in to see if they could get a reliably tame 'human', before they unsuppressed the ability. In this theory, possibly the reason only the e'Kieron Dragaerans have the ability is that Verra was only able to sneak one unsuppressed Dragaeran past her Jenoine supervisors. (Or does anyone know of any textevd about whether Kieron was created in a Jenoine lab, as opposed to being born a few generations later? If he wasn't created in a Jenoine lab, the idea that Verra pulled a fast one in her revolt doesn't work so well - after all, why would Kieron and his siblings be the only one in the Tribe of the Dragon who could trace their ancestry to one lab human? Maybe human-Dragaeran crosses can be fertile, but Kieron's mom was the only one perverted enough to try it? Makes for a different interpretation as to why Kieron didn't like Easterners one bit.....VBG) > The thing about reincarnation is that it's a new start in life. Having a > history doesn't change who you are now. Even if you have an especially adept > and powerful mentor like Sethra to lead you in a past-life regression, doing > so doesn't somehow transform you back into that person that you used to be. > It just gives you some insight into your soul's history and maybe some > pointers on what mistakes to avoid this time around. Never mind the legal > morass of souls moving around through different Houses in each life. So Dragaerans don't go in for bull sessions or speculative fiction? Karen From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Jan 16 15:39:36 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:39:36 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust Message-ID: <17338045.1137454777256.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Shawn Burns >Sent: Jan 16, 2006 4:33 PM >To: "'Jeff G.'" , dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >> [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jeff G. >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:37 PM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Hubbell" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM >> Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> >> >> > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> > >> > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and >> > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 >> seconds after >> the >> > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers >> (and Vlad) to >> > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. >> > >> > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and >> numbered >> > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook >> through his ebay >> store. >> > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the >> standard edition >> at >> > $8.00 each plus shipping. >> > >> 14 left now. >> >> Jeff >> - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . > > >10 left now > >Shawn 6... Heh. Mr. Hubbell, you are a bad man. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 15:49:16 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:49:16 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <43CC30FC.5010409@comcast.net> skzb wrote: > Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) >> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both >> equally valid? > > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it > was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to > grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then > Castlerock. Interesting. Thanks for the background. >> 2. What is the gender of the Chreotha "Deppian" who is referred to by >> both genders in /Paths of the Dead/? The character is referred to as >> a "she" at the top of the page, then as a "he" a few paragraphs >> later. Chapter 14, Page 133, paperback. >> (Or were the Countess and her spouse perhaps both present at this >> meeting with K?na?) > > They were both present. Cool. Another character to add to the Dramatis Personae page on the Wiki. (It's up to over 530 names now and counting...) >> 3. Is Grassfog's sister named "Tsira" (as it appears in the text of >> /Sethra Lavode/) or "Tsani" (as it appears in the front matter)? I'm >> guessing that "Tsani" is a typo, since the name "Tsira" is used >> consitantly in the body of the book, but I didn't know if one of >> these might be a nickname or something. >> > "Tsani" is a typo, I think. Or maybe it's a nickname. Yeah, I like > that. I planned it all along. I *knew* it! ;-) >> 4. Cwelli and Olani; Savn's parents. Which is which? (I'll completely >> understand if you don't care to answer this one, as it seems to be >> deliberately vague in the story itself--but it would be an enormous >> benefit to the "Dramatis Personae" page on the wikicity to able to to >> identify them a little more clearly.) >> > Sorry. Totally okay. You can hide or reveal whatever you damn well please, and the rest of us will just be sitting here, hanging on your every word. ;-) If I get too bored I can write my own fan-fic or something. I really appreciate the reply, thanks muchly for sharing. Jon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 16 16:34:14 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:34:14 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CBCC46.1CFF@ecity.net> Message-ID: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > If > you wonder if > maybe the Jenoine did find Easterners interesting enough in themselves > to tinker with, as opposed to just being a control so they > could see how > much better the new and improved Dragons were compared to Easterners, > the question becomes what interested them? I haven't seen any evidence that the Jenoine found Easterners interesting as anything other than breeding stock/control group. Dragaerans have the same "psionic" ability that the Jenoine put into the Easterners. They just don't use it the same way. I generally imagine that it was a requirement as a first step towards the ability to manipulate amorphia. This is also why the Easterners were segregated from the Dragaerans via the Eastern/Western mountains. They wouldn't be any good as a control group otherwise. > In this theory, possibly the reason only the e'Kieron Dragaerans have > the ability is that Verra was only able to sneak one unsuppressed > Dragaeran past her Jenoine supervisors. > I think I posted this speculation already, but my idea on this is that the creation of those Dragaerans who became the e'Kieron line was the goal of the experiment. The success of the breeding program was likely the event that triggered the revolt of Verra and her fellow slaves. I don't believe the others are supressed. They just don't have the "genetic" patterns to support the ability. (When you're talking "genes" that are a part of the soul instead of the body you're talking something other than what we think of as genetics anyway.) > (Or does anyone know of any textevd about whether Kieron was > created in > a Jenoine lab, as opposed to being born a few generations > later? Nope, we don't really know how much time passed between the Revolt and the Migration. Aliera and Vlad (who both have the amorphia summoning ability) represent Kieron's siblings, so Kieron was certainly not the first of the "genetic" line. He was simply the first one famous enough to warrant the rest of the family naming themselves in honor of him. There were probably a few generations of parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc... before him, but again we don't know one way or the other. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 16 16:59:36 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:59:36 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > >I haven't seen any evidence that the Jenoine found Easterners interesting as >anything other than breeding stock/control group. Dragaerans have the same >"psionic" ability that the Jenoine put into the Easterners. They just don't >use it the same way. I generally imagine that it was a requirement as a >first step towards the ability to manipulate amorphia. This is also why the >Easterners were segregated from the Dragaerans via the Eastern/Western >mountains. They wouldn't be any good as a control group otherwise. > > I've always assumed humans were there before Dragaerans were created. How well is this assumption backed up? Jenoine could have just grabbed what they wanted to play with - possibly from Earth, and somehow later some humans arrived or were brought over - possibly by some other agency. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 16:49:07 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:49:07 -0600 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CC3F03.50409@comcast.net> I got mine! :-) Steve Hubbell wrote: > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds > after the end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers > (and Vlad) to the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > numbered (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through > his ebay store. As of today, there are still 18 copies available for > the standard edition at $8.00 each plus shipping. > > >> W. Paul Ganley Ebay store listing: >> >> Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> Copyright 2005 by Steven Brust >> published by W. Paul Ganley: Publisher >> and the Buffalo Fantasy League >> >> BFL CHAPBOOK #4 >> This is the fourth chapbook produced featuring the guests of honor at >> Eeriecon (the 2006 guests of honor at Eeriecon are Harry Turtledove, >> Tanya Huff, and Esther Friesner.). Last year's (with Niven, Lumley, >> and Bishop) is nearly sold out. They are published in editions of >> about 150 numbered copies, with the first 20 or 30 being dedicated >> for hard cover binding. They are signed by all three contributors. >> >> This new chapbook features: >> KLAVA WITH HONEY by STEVEN BRUST >> WHAT SLEEPS IN THE SHALLOWS BELONGS TO THE DEEP by JULIE CZERNEDA >> AN INCIDENT AT THE LUNCHEON OF THE BOATING PARTY, by ALLEN M. STEELE. >> >> Because Mr. Brust was unable to attend the convention because of >> illness, he graciously permitted us to send the copies to him for his >> signature. That's why this title is only now being offered on my eBay >> store. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8341034245QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE-HC-copy_W0QQitemZ8354785208QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> >> This chapbook also features a wraparound cover and three interior >> illustrations by Charles Momberger, the artist who also did the cover >> for Chapbook #3. >> >> If you are interested in one of the $50 hardbound copies, please >> email me to that effect and I will put a copy on eBay just for you. >> Expensive? Yes, but these are collectors' items, and the markup is >> actually only a factor of two, much less than most books in your >> favorite bookstore. >> >> By the way, half of any profits on this project will go to the >> Buffalo Fantasy League to support next year's EERIECON. >> >> >> >>> From: Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A >>> Prologue by Steven Brust >>> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:32:37 +0000 >>> >>> On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and >>>> published in >>>> the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>> If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>> >>> >>> >>> Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) >>> Specifically, I'd >>> hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. >>> >>> The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was >>> discussed / >>> >>>> mentioned on the list before. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's >>> been a >>> long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have >>> been >>> mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). >>> >>> PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>> chapbooks >>> >>>> with "A Dream of Passion" >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: "Steve Hubbell" >>>> To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >>>> Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>>> >>>> Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and >>>> published in >>>> the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>> If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>>> >>>> The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was >>>> discussed / >>>> mentioned on the list before. >>>> >>>> BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON >>>> CHAPBOOK 4. >>>> USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First >>>> Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J >>>> Near >>>> Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What >>>> Sleeps in >>>> the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the >>>> Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) >>>> USD 50.00 >>>> Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 >>>> http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml >>>> >>>> Thanks..... >>>> >>>> PS >>>> I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>>> chapbooks >>>> with "A Dream of Passion" >>> > > > > From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 18:36:39 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:36:39 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > I've always assumed humans were there before Dragaerans were > created. How well is this assumption backed up? Jenoine could have > just grabbed what they wanted to play with - possibly from Earth, and > somehow later some humans arrived or were brought over - possibly by > some other agency. Sethra says as much in /Issola/. She also mentions that Aliera refuses to believe it. I don't remember where exactly I got the idea, but I seem to remember hearing that Dragaera was originally a Terran colony (of mostly Hungarian ancestry) that were "discovered": by the Jenoine. This ties in nicely with the idea that Tri'nagore has followers on other worlds (presumably Easterners or "humans" as we call them). This is one of the many ways in which the Dragaera books are Science Fiction, as opposed to Fantasy. (But I've expressed recently, that really they "float" between the genres.) Of course, I consider the "Star Wars" movies to be :"fantasy set in outer space", rather than true Sci-Fi, so my opinion may be somewhat unusual. Majikjon From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 19:09:44 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:09:44 -0600 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CC5FF8.60605@comcast.net> You should *purchase* the series (support good authors everywhere!) and watch the series. The movie stands alone quite nicely without it, but when you watch the series afterwards, you will be sorry you missed the surprises in the order in which they came. Just my $.02. Mia Scott Schultz wrote: >My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, >borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. > > > > > From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 16 22:35:14 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:35:14 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601162235m90aea3coa4962d448cd75ac6@mail.gmail.com> On 1/16/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Of course, I consider the "Star Wars" movies to be :"fantasy set in > outer space", rather than true Sci-Fi, so my opinion may be somewhat > unusual. I believe this is pretty much the conventional wisdom on Star Wars. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jan 17 04:49:11 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:49:11 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> References: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <43CCE7C7.8080604@email.ers.usda.gov> Noah Stacy wrote: > On topic first: Am I wrong in thinking that Dragaera, especially > pre-interregnum, seems to share a lot of traits with France just > before 1789? The thought has passed my mind before, but it > particularly struck me recently while reading a book on the Revolution > that included a brief description of the situation just > beforehand--with wildly varying systems of measurement, laws, internal > tariffs and customs, and so on, throughout the kingdom. > A few, perhaps. I imagine that Dragaera just before the Cycle changes will always look a little like '89 France. But France in '89 was totally disfunctional as a self-governing society; that is the only reason the Revolution succeeded. (The same is true of the Russian Revolution in 1917 someone alluded to.) And the measurements, laws, customs, etc., you refer to had been wildly differing for centuries--basically, for the life of the French state since Charlemagne and earlier. They didn't help matters, but they didn't cause the Revolution. Dragaera is a long way from this amount of social breakdown just before the Interregnum. I'd say the situation is actually a little more analogous to the abortive uprising of Etienne Marcel in 1358-ish or so Paris, after the disaster of Poitiers. In the latter case, the increasing influential bourgeoisie collided with a state temporarily deprived of its head. When it regained one, it rather easily dealt with the merchants. Incidentally, the French Revolution properly begins with the effective coup d'etat of the nobility in '87. they promptly showed that 100 years of emasculation at Versailles had left them completely incapable as a class of running the affairs of anything as large as a small pastry shop. It was this bankruptcy that allowed and encouraged the rest of France to rise up and sweep all that away. Snarkhunter From st.shafer at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 12:16:03 2006 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:16:03 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43CC30FC.5010409@comcast.net> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> <43CC30FC.5010409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <77369c850601171216w2662a006vf72f1e17592dcca2@mail.gmail.com> skzb wrote: > > > Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) > >> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both > >> equally valid? > > > > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it > > was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to > > grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then > > Castlerock. > So Castlerock (TPG) came before Castle Rock (TVA)? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 17 12:46:30 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:46:30 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <77369c850601171216w2662a006vf72f1e17592dcca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Stephen Shafer Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/17/06 12:16 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities skzb wrote: >> >> > Jon Lincicum wrote: >> > >> >> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) >> >> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both >> >> equally valid? >> > >> > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it >> > was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to >> > grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then >> > Castlerock. >> > >So Castlerock (TPG) came before Castle Rock (TVA)? Well, it's not quite that simple. If Paarfi is relating these stories well after the fact (TPG was "written" in 309 PI) then Paarfi may use the modern spelling in some instances when describing Khaavren, but may spell it "Castle Rock" in dialogue instances where Khaavren, Aerich, Pel, Tazendra, et al. are talking to each other, since that's the spelling they would have used. Further, Brust "The Translator" may simply have been inconsistent in his usages of the spellings that Paarfi used in the original "Dragaeran Text". It's also possible that the Dragaerans themselves still use both spellings on occasion. For the Wiki, I've decided to go with "Castlerock", given Steven's answer, seeing that this is apparently the "fully evolved" version of the name. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 14:44:33 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:44:33 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/16/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > > I've always assumed humans were there before Dragaerans were > > created. > > Sethra says as much in /Issola/. > > She also mentions that Aliera refuses to believe it. > > I don't remember where exactly I got the idea, but I seem to remember > hearing that Dragaera was originally a Terran colony (of mostly > Hungarian ancestry) that were "discovered": by the Jenoine. > I don't think that "of mostly Hungarian ancestry" is a warranted assumption. First of all, while Fenario is Hungarian-ish, it's only been in existence for about 1000 years - a long time for them, but a miniscule fraction of the duration of the Empire. Secondly, given that we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, I don't think we can conclude which of those groups was dominant in numbers 200,000 years ago. Finally, note that "Kieron" is an *Irish* name, which could suggest that the Irish were dominant back then, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it. My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of the Empire's history. I may have to flesh that notion out at Speculation:Easterner. Hm. Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. ObOtherSF: Microcosmic God. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Jan 17 15:05:03 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:05:03 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock wrote: >My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >the Empire's history. Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? >Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of >time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that >the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the >Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. Very good observation. :) From rone at ennui.org Tue Jan 17 15:26:54 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060117232654.90AA9682AC@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, Asian names? I think i missed those. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 15:47:05 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:47:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060117232654.90AA9682AC@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060117232654.90AA9682AC@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43CD81F9.6010307@comcast.net> rone wrote: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, > >Asian names? I think i missed those. > >rone > > Yain Cho Lin, Poet-seer of the East, for example. Also, Soori-Laino-Kri, an Athyra Emperor of the third cycle. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 15:59:13 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:59:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I don't think that "of mostly Hungarian ancestry" is a warranted >assumption. First of all, while Fenario is Hungarian-ish, it's only >been in existence for about 1000 years - a long time for them, but a >miniscule fraction of the duration of the Empire. Secondly, given that >we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, I don't think we >can conclude which of those groups was dominant in numbers 200,000 >years ago. Finally, note that "Kieron" is an *Irish* name, which >could suggest that the Irish were dominant back then, but I certainly >wouldn't bet on it. > > Exellent points, all. I was trying to remember what the theory was, and in what context I heard about it, but I'm still drawing a blank on exactly where I got the idea in the first place (it certainly wasn't of my own invention). There had to be some significant Hungarian population to start with, else the culture could not have survived for hundreds of thousands of years--but this in no way means that other cultural influences were not also present (and in possibly greater numbers). The fact that Fenario is among the more well-known Eastern Kingdoms, in fact, in no way guarantees that this culture is even dominant among Easterners in "present-day" Dragaera, since there's no real information on the lands further East from Fenario and Blackchapel. It could be that there's a nation descended from long-haired American hippies from the 1970's who are *the* dominant Eastern nation, they're just so far away from the Empire that we've never heard about them. >My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >the Empire's history. > > Is it part of your theory that Terran colonization of Dragaera is ongoing? >I may have to flesh that notion out at Speculation:Easterner. Hm. > > > Sounds like a great idea! >Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of >time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that >the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the >Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. > >ObOtherSF: Microcosmic God. > Given the way they operate, they probably set up a long-line of attacks, many designed as feints, and have started executing them "recently". Of course, we still don't know about the timing of several of the events that Sethra mentions in /Issola/, the Attack on the Imperial Palace, for example, or the attack on the Greater Sea of Chaos. It could be that these earlier attacks happened much further back in Imperial history. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 16:59:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:59:56 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I was trying to remember what the theory was, and in what context I > heard about it, but I'm still drawing a blank on exactly where I got the > idea in the first place (it certainly wasn't of my own invention). Probably Verra, in /Phoenix/, when she starts talking about the ones who discovered this world, before the Jenoine. And from the Serioli, and from Sethra, we know that they were what we would call humans. Presumably from our future, since they had stuff on Marxism preserved in their vaults. To the left, perhaps when Verra says "vaults", she actually means "gateways to other worlds" (ie, ours). I need to re-read that section more carefully. Of course, Verra also misstates (or Vlad misstated) the number of years to the Interregnum. Unless more is going on with that, of course. > There had to be some significant Hungarian population to start with, > else the culture could not have survived for hundreds of thousands of > years Not necessarily. In my scenario, an influx of Magyar from earlier in our history (say, around 1000AD our time) to Dragaera at some point in Dragaera's "recent" past (sometime in the 17th Cycle, maybe a few hundred years before Tortaalik's reign began) could result in the Fenarian civilization we see in /Brokedown Palace/ and Vlad's time. Or something like that. Time travel weirds history. > > >My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in > >Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been > >introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of > >the Empire's history. > > > > > Is it part of your theory that Terran colonization of Dragaera is ongoing? No, not colonization. Maybe that first human population, before the Empire, but I'm talking about influxes of people with minimal civilization into already settled lands, thus disrupting them, and preventing the rising of an Easterner civilization with a higher tech level than the Dragaeran Empire. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 17:54:03 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:54:03 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Not necessarily. In my scenario, an influx of Magyar from earlier in >our history (say, around 1000AD our time) to Dragaera at some point in >Dragaera's "recent" past (sometime in the 17th Cycle, maybe a few >hundred years before Tortaalik's reign began) could result in the >Fenarian civilization we see in /Brokedown Palace/ and Vlad's time. >Or something like that. > >Time travel weirds history. > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? >>Is it part of your theory that Terran colonization of Dragaera is ongoing? >> >> > >No, not colonization. Maybe that first human population, before the >Empire, but I'm talking about influxes of people with minimal >civilization into already settled lands, thus disrupting them, and >preventing the rising of an Easterner civilization with a higher tech >level than the Dragaeran Empire. > Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? Could it be that Dragaera is actually just a planet that is colonized well into our own future, where massive starships armed with directed-energy weapons delivered millions of Terran colonists (armed with tons of high-tech gear) a million years before Vlad's time, where they lived quite happily--excepting only minor run-ins with a few Serioli--until one day the Jenoine show up, start monkeying around with our genes, then, shortly after, the gods create a sea of amorphia, making all our splendid technology aboslutely obsolete? What would this mean to a technological civilization? To be countered with a threat that was completely outside of all known science? How would Sethra Lavode counter, say, the threat of a thousand nuclear-tipped ICBMs? Would she wave Iceflame a couple of times, turn them all into dzur droppings, and fling them back at whomever launched them? Sorry, no real answers in this post. Just lots of questions. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 18:34:24 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:34:24 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? > > Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, > particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Assume there are no funny "technology doesn't work around sorcery" effects, a la Harry Potter. Advantages that are mine: 1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too (spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. 2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the offence. 3. Information. I will probably have better intelligence capabilities than the Dragaerans, better communication systems, and more ability to integrate information into a coherent picture. 4. Lifespan. If the war is sustained enough, I have more capability to absorb and replace losses. I expect this to have more effect on morale than on actual operations, though. My method of waging warfare will probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations in the course of 4-5 *years.* 5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. If I were forced to face Dragaerans on their own terms, their superior size would make it iffy, but I might try body armor. (There have been interesting, nemourlon-like developments in that area recently. Armor which is rigid only when struck.) That's playing to their strengths, though. I may also have superior night vision technology, judging from /Dragon/. Disadvantages: 1. Sorcery is very common among Dragaerans. The key question is exactly *how* good the average Dragaeran can be expected to be. If a typical soldier is good enough to set off the ammunition in a rifle at 300 yards, my options become more limited. Same thing if the typical soldier is good enough to see in the dark as if it were daylight. If he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin and shoot him. 2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. 3. *Powerful* sorcerers exist among the Dragaerans. Then again, even Sethra doesn't seem to be able to make armies fall over dead. This will probably affect my morale more than my operations, although if I make the wrong mistakes it may also make them more costly, e.g. if Sethra drops an amorphia bomb onto my central command post. Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 18:36:55 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:36:55 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601171836r65be4683xf8450fbf29d62648@mail.gmail.com> On 1/17/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Weird typo: "on a good day" Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jan 17 20:12:20 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:12:20 -0500 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E8DC9A8-590A-43DC-9169-0735A15BCCDC@mac.com> On Jan 17, 2006, at 3:46 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Stephen Shafer > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/17/06 12:16 PM > > To > dragaera at dragaera.info > cc > > Subject > Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities > > > > > > > skzb wrote: > >>> >>>> Jon Lincicum wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix >>>>> Guards/) >>>>> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both >>>>> equally valid? >>>> >>>> Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of > it >>>> was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened > to >>>> grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then >>>> Castlerock. >>> >> >> So Castlerock (TPG) came before Castle Rock (TVA)? > > Well, it's not quite that simple. > > If Paarfi is relating these stories well after the fact (TPG was > "written" > in 309 PI) then Paarfi may use the modern spelling in some > instances when > describing Khaavren, but may spell it "Castle Rock" in dialogue > instances > where Khaavren, Aerich, Pel, Tazendra, et al. are talking to each > other, > since that's the spelling they would have used. > > Further, Brust "The Translator" may simply have been inconsistent > in his > usages of the spellings that Paarfi used in the original "Dragaeran > Text". > > It's also possible that the Dragaerans themselves still use both > spellings > on occasion. > > For the Wiki, I've decided to go with "Castlerock", given Steven's > answer, > seeing that this is apparently the "fully evolved" version of the > name. > > Majikjon > > I have only one word for you. That word is "ford" Ken From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 23:44:42 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:44:42 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > >Time travel weirds history. > > > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a given. > > Could it be that Dragaera is actually just a planet that is colonized > well into our own future, Another - and I think more likely explanation - is that Dragaera may have first been reached by a colonization ship passing through a necromantic gate the size of a small moon. That is, the planet itself may well be in a universe distinct from the starting point of the original colonists (and for that matter, further in the Dragaeran universe's past). From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 01:01:31 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:01:31 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/17/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? > > > > Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, > > particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? > > Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with > taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Just out of curiosity, what exactly are your purported military objectives? > > Advantages that are mine: > You seem to be making several zillion hugely unwarranted assumptions (much like another recent military operation that could be named). Here are a few: 1) How, exactly, do you plan to convey your troops and materiel to Dragaera? Just wishing them there? If you're using necromantic gates, may I remind you that the current known expert in matters necromantic is on fact on the Dragareans' side? 2) Almost all of your high-tech advantages are heavily reliant on various methods of storing energy in high-density packages or chemicals. May I remind you that Dragaeran sorcery does appear to be capable of causing all high-energy-density packages to rapidly discharge simultaneously, and at a distance? 3) /Dragon/ showed Sethra using certain limited tactics. She was refraining from using certain extreme methods because of mutual convention. If your technical advantages are so great that she cannot defeat them in any other way, I think a real possibility is for her to summon some Jhereg, give them, I dunno, 20,000 gold, and tell them "The enemy command staff. All of them Morganti." Or, as you mentioned, the Chaos option. [snip list] From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 01:41:28 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 02:41:28 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> As far as the "how did we get there?" question, I'm only analyzing attacking a Dragaeran Empire, not the Dragaeran *planet*. I.e. I thought we were discussing a hypothetical high-tech Easterner civilization, and how it would fare against "Elder Sorcery," as Majikjon put it. My thought was that the Easterner civilization has a lot of advantages that are not immediately obvious. You ask what the purported military objectives are. I'm not sure. What are Sethra the Younger's purported military objectives? It appears to involve a lot of killing people and breaking stuff: probably establishing military credibility in the face of aggression by the other side, or else because you want something like the Pepperfields. Destroying the Empire itself is probably outside the scope of our objectives, but it hasn't really been well-defined what we're doing. "Several zillion hugely unwarranted assumptions," eh? Some of those assumptions were warranted by the context of the discussion; others may be genuine oversights, which I would be pleased to have you point out. I noted several advantages on the Easterner side which have nothing to do with storing energy in high-density packages. (Radio, for instance, doesn't require powerful batteries. You saw how useful communication systems were in /Sethra Lavode/.) Furthermore, all we actually know is that spell sticks were abandoned because somebody figured out how to make them all go off at once; whether that is because they were high-density energy packages or because they were delayed spells is unknown. The approaches I outlined were in fact designed to test whether Dragaerans *can* make tanks go "boom" from two miles away by igniting their ammunition. If Dragaerans are in fact capable of catalyzing arbitrary high-energy packages from long distances, the war is lost anyway, because they can just melt your flesh by igniting your *bodily* energy. (BTW, the human body produces more heat than the sun, cubic inch for cubic inch. Of course there's an awful lot of sun.) So basically, we don't know what would happen if Dragaerans went up against high-altitude bombers, and I'd be an idiot not to try it assuming that I've developed those bombers already for use against the USSR-equivalent of the period. (Again, we come back to not knowing exactly the circumstances of the contact.) In response to your #2: I have other high-tech advantages which are reliant on high-density energy storage, but behind the front lines (in my manufacturing base, for instance). If Dragaerans can make them go *kaboom* at an arbitrary distance, yes, my situation becomes a lot uglier. In that case there's not much point in analyzing tactics, because strategically I've lost before the war even begins. I have no way to defend my homeland, period. In response to #3: When discussing Sethra's tactics, I was thinking more particularly of /Sethra Lavode/, where the stakes were a lot higher than in /Dragon/. We still didn't see her destroying armies with sorcery. In fact, her tactics were still very much as in /Dragon/, in spite of the fact that the enemy had no access to sorcery at all. And I suppose I should leave discussion at that. ~Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scs at di.org Wed Jan 18 06:08:01 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:08:01 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060118140801.GD23066@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Jan 17, 2006 at 02:44:33PM -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > . . . . Finally, note that "Kieron" is an *Irish* name, which > could suggest that the Irish were dominant back then, but I certainly > wouldn't bet on it. Never dominant, always popular. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 06:44:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:44:33 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/2006 01:41 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >You ask what the purported military objectives are. I'm not sure. What >are Sethra the Younger's purported military objectives? It appears to >involve a lot of killing people and breaking stuff: probably >establishing military credibility in the face of aggression by the >other side, or else because you want something like the Pepperfields. >Destroying the Empire itself is probably outside the scope of our >objectives, but it hasn't really been well-defined what we're doing. My thoughts were that either: a) Sethra the Younger was invading this hypothetical Easterner Kingdom, and they were trying to defend themselves, or b) The Easterners were coming west into the Empire to "deal with this agressive threat to our sovereignty, once and for all". This second might involve killing or capturing these "tyrannical dictators" who lead the Empire, and replacing them with a Teckla-style republic under a new constitution. (Any of this sound familiar?) >nothing to do with storing energy in high-density packages. (Radio, >for instance, doesn't require powerful batteries. You saw how useful >communication systems were in /Sethra Lavode/.) Furthermore, all we >actually know is that spell sticks were abandoned because somebody >figured out how to make them all go off at once; whether that is >because they were high-density energy packages or because they were >delayed spells is unknown. The approaches I outlined were in fact Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. >designed to test whether Dragaerans *can* make tanks go "boom" from >two miles away by igniting their ammunition. If Dragaerans are in fact >capable of catalyzing arbitrary high-energy packages from long >distances, the war is lost anyway, because they can just melt your >flesh by igniting your *bodily* energy. (BTW, the human body produces >more heat than the sun, cubic inch for cubic inch. Of course there's >an awful lot of sun.) So basically, we don't know what would happen if >Dragaerans went up against high-altitude bombers, and I'd be an idiot >not to try it assuming that I've developed those bombers already for >use against the USSR-equivalent of the period. (Again, we come back to >not knowing exactly the circumstances of the contact.) > >In response to your #2: I have other high-tech advantages which are >reliant on high-density energy storage, but behind the front lines (in >my manufacturing base, for instance). If Dragaerans can make them go >*kaboom* at an arbitrary distance, yes, my situation becomes a lot >uglier. In that case there's not much point in analyzing tactics, >because strategically I've lost before the war even begins. I have no >way to defend my homeland, period. > What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. This is not to say that some scientist, given enough time, might not be able to counter the effects of sorcery. Logically, sorcery that counters a physical effect (like, say, the Jenoine's force-field thingy in /Issola/) might be disruptable by another physical effect (An EM-pulse? Intense heat? Quantum teleportation?). Given that a sorcery seems to be able to operate with impunity against technology, however, while the reverse is not the case, leads me to think that the sorcerers would prevail. (Which may be why the Jenoine want access to it so badly...) >In response to #3: When discussing Sethra's tactics, I was thinking >more particularly of /Sethra Lavode/, where the stakes were a lot >higher than in /Dragon/. We still didn't see her destroying armies >with sorcery. In fact, her tactics were still very much as in >/Dragon/, in spite of the fact that the enemy had no access to sorcery >at all. > >And I suppose I should leave discussion at that. In both cases, we're talking about "limited war", however. The civilian populations are not targetted, and there are other conventions that are being adhered to. It'd be interesting to see what tactics Sethra might use in "total war" where anything goes, so to speak. Majikjon From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed Jan 18 06:45:51 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:45:51 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060118094118.01e73b88@camail.harvard.edu> At 11:44 PM 1/17/2006 -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? > >Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and >future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our >present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a >given. Hmmmm.... I'm not a fan of this theory, but one thought did occur to me while reading it. Why are we assuming that the tales that we're receiving via the black box are contemporary. Perhaps we have it backwards, maybe the Dragaeran stories happened in the distant past and the black box transmitted them forward to us (or stored them for untold amounts of time until it was discovered). The black box is the one thing that I wish hadn't appeared as it causes us to try to make the series fit with our reality "I think too much -- therefore I am mad!" http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 07:09:25 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:09:25 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CE5A25.60507@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most >>instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio >>is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep >>up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. >> >> > > Can they record psionic communications? Being able to record is a big advantage. Can psionic communications be intercepted? I suspect yes. Codes can be used, but cyphers might be harder. >What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to >have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has >not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. > > Remember that before the Orb made sorcery easy, things were very different. Technology is used for shipping even after the Orb. Technology is used for farming. Technology is used for heating and cooking. Technology is used for swords and armor. When did people forget technology, and why? I suspect they didn't. I propose that the people didn't move arrive from a far future Earth - but instead were pulled over from our past. Time/Space works funny with the Jenoine and the gods. Try one experiment with people pulled from afar, maybe discard the remains and try another. >Given that a sorcery seems to be able to operate with impunity against >technology, however, while the reverse is not the case, leads me to think >that the sorcerers would prevail. (Which may be why the Jenoine want >access to it so badly...) > > > Prevail? Why should it be a war between technology and sorcery? If watches aren't needed anymore because the orb can always tell you the time, you don't need to discard the clock that runs your irrigation equipment. If sorcery can beat guns in an open battle, that doesn't mean guns aren't useful in crime. If sorcery can make some weapons more powerful, that doesn't mean you close down your steal production. >In both cases, we're talking about "limited war", however. The civilian >populations are not targetted, and there are other conventions that are >being adhered to. It'd be interesting to see what tactics Sethra might use >in "total war" where anything goes, so to speak. > > > We've seen the total war weapon. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 07:16:21 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:16:21 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20060118094118.01e73b88@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Charles Sumner Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 06:45 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >At 11:44 PM 1/17/2006 -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >>On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? >> >>Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and >>future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our >>present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a >>given. > >Hmmmm.... I'm not a fan of this theory, but one thought did occur to me >while reading it. Why are we assuming that the tales that we're receiving >via the black box are contemporary. Perhaps we have it backwards, maybe >the Dragaeran stories happened in the distant past and the black box >transmitted them forward to us (or stored them for untold amounts of time >until it was discovered). On the one hand, we have Kelly's discovery of the "very old" manuscripts uncovered from a vault that Verra mentions in /Phoenix/ (Apparently written by Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, or similar), which imply that Dragaera is in our future. On the other hand, these events being set in the past is the only real way to reconcile the "current events" of our time with that of Dragaera, unless one resorts to some sort of time-bending, which I'm also not a big fan of. I think Steve does this stuff just to torment us, actually. >The black box is the one thing that I wish hadn't appeared as it causes us >to try to make the series fit with our reality I believe the box was silver, rather than black, but lets not be picky. After all, those are both Dragon colors. ;-) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 07:42:29 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:42:29 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most > instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio > is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep > up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. I'd actually argue that radio combined with modern technology is far superior to psionic communication. For one thing, psionic communication is only possible with those you know well; this results in big, centralized networks that less robust to point-failure. Secondly, radio can be processed by computers instead of human brains. Things like real-time-updated battle maps are only feasible with computer processing; I'm not a general so I don't know exactly how important this is, but it's certainly better than psi. ObSF: read David Drake's stories to get an old soldier's opinion of what a really good AI could do in battle. /Northworld/ is a good one. > What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to > have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has > not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. "Jenoine." Of course you mentioned them, and Verra does call what they do "magic" of a sort, but in that case we haven't seen any examples of technology at all in the stories. Except that we know metal attracts sorcery--but to know the effect of a Faraday cage on sorcery you'd have to test it. I suspect that letting Faraday cages block sorcery would probably not be Cool. On the other hand, if sorcery can affect the physical world, and technology can affect the physical world, and both parties live in the physical world: you can destroy technology by destroying its physical platform, and the same goes for sorcery. The only difference is that technology is something you *have* and not something you *are* (as Bruce Schneier might put it), which means replacement ammunition is a lot easier to produce than replacement sorcerers. This is a plus for technology. I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 08:02:22 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:02:22 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43CE668E.6070500@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >I'd actually argue that radio combined with modern technology is far >superior to psionic communication. For one thing, psionic >communication is only possible with those you know well; this results >in big, centralized networks that less robust to point-failure. >Secondly, radio can be processed by computers instead of human brains. >Things like real-time-updated battle maps are only feasible with >computer processing; I'm not a general so I don't know exactly how >important this is, but it's certainly better than psi. ObSF: read >David Drake's stories to get an old soldier's opinion of what a really >good AI could do in battle. /Northworld/ is a good one. > > I found Drake's RCN series much more fun. And it works better in this discussion because it is a tribute to f Patrick O'Brian's *Aubrey*/Maturin books, only with space ships. One of the two main characters, Adele Mundy, is a spinster librarian who does wonderful things with here computers gives her team a decided edge in their battles. Technologies are tools to an end. The various types of magic we see are various technologies - smart warriors and traders will use whichever tools give them an edge. All of those tools have their advantages. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 18 08:42:58 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:42:58 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00be01c61c4e$40ae4f30$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Jon writ: > I think Steve does this stuff just to torment us, actually. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 08:47:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:47:55 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 07:42 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >I'd actually argue that radio combined with modern technology is far >superior to psionic communication. For one thing, psionic >communication is only possible with those you know well; this results >in big, centralized networks that less robust to point-failure. >Secondly, radio can be processed by computers instead of human brains. >Things like real-time-updated battle maps are only feasible with >computer processing; I'm not a general so I don't know exactly how >important this is, but it's certainly better than psi. ObSF: read >David Drake's stories to get an old soldier's opinion of what a really >good AI could do in battle. /Northworld/ is a good one. Depends on a lot of factors. Security: Can radio signals be intercepted via sorcery? Can psionic communications be intercepted via technology? Reliability/Efficiency: As long as the Empress and the Orb remain unmolested, psionic communication through her is 100% reliable, and since all communication is channeled through one "server", it is centralized, and very efficient. If she goes down, however, all is lost. (I guess you'd call this "All your eggs in one basket" syndrome.) Technology wise, a distributed radio network system is more robust, but less efficient while operational. Ease of use: One on one, psionics wins. In a broadcast-style communique, radio would appear to have the advantage. >> What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to >> have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has >> not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. >> >"Jenoine." Of course you mentioned them, and Verra does call what they >do "magic" of a sort, but in that case we haven't seen any examples of >technology at all in the stories. Except that we know metal attracts >sorcery--but to know the effect of a Faraday cage on sorcery you'd >have to test it. I suspect that letting Faraday cages block sorcery >would probably not be Cool. The only reason Blackwand and Pathfinder didn't immediately dispatch the Jenoine in /Issola/ is because they had developed their own Orb-equivilent, and were therefore using sorcery to defend themselves, so this doesn't really count as "technology countering sorcery", it was sorcery countering sorcery. It was only at that point that the Jenoine's stun-gun technology became the deciding factor. >On the other hand, if sorcery can affect the physical world, and >technology can affect the physical world, and both parties live in the >physical world: you can destroy technology by destroying its physical >platform, and the same goes for sorcery. The only difference is that >technology is something you *have* and not something you *are* (as >Bruce Schneier might put it), which means replacement ammunition is a >lot easier to produce than replacement sorcerers. This is a plus for >technology. To a point. Depends on how effective the technology is in taking out the people who are trained in sorcery. Gatling gun vs Sethra Lavode, who wins? And the "ammunition" on the side of sorcery in this case is really "amorphia" not "people". You have to have people to fire the weapons. It's just a lot easier to train someone to fire a gun than it is to teach them to use sorcery (apparently). *This* is really the advantage that technology has in this case. At the same time, the Orb itself is really the only "weapon" we're dealing with on the sorcery side. Again, if that were destroyed or lost, then the battle is over. All your eggs in one basket again. >I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but >they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, >judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 18 09:11:29 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:11:29 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1e7401c61c52$39337f10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > >Not necessarily. In my scenario, an influx of Magyar from earlier in > >our history (say, around 1000AD our time) to Dragaera at > some point in > >Dragaera's "recent" past (sometime in the 17th Cycle, maybe a few > >hundred years before Tortaalik's reign began) could result in the > >Fenarian civilization we see in /Brokedown Palace/ and Vlad's time. > >Or something like that. > > > >Time travel weirds history. Aside from the fact that we have no evidence of time travel in the series (I'm not convinced that what Devera does is "time travel" in the normally accepted sense; time is simply meaningless for her much like it's meaningless in general in the Halls of Judgement), we have Morollan's Serioli friend. He refers to the Easterners as "The Old People" who came from "the small invisible lights" (i.e., stars). He (and, generalizing from a single example, the Serioli culture in general) is aware that the Terrans were around for a long time before the Dragaerans and that Terrans came from another world far away in space. He didn't think of them as visitors from another dimension or as demons or time travelers or what have you. The colonists were most likely your standard issue sci-fi Terran colonists, who happened to be of mixed heritage. We know Steve is a friend and admirer of the late Roger Zelazny. It might be a deliberate or maybe subconscious homage to _Lord of Light_ that explains why the Eastern Kingdoms exist as they do. That is, the journey itself involved "cultural devolution" such that the colonies were established in a state something like a Middle Ages/Rennaisance culture. I could certainly imagine the Eastern Kingdoms as the _Lord of Light_ setting after Sam has successfully defeated the Gods and set the colonists to determine their own course. The Serioli, thematically, aren't all that different from the Rakshasa, really. Then the Jenoine appear and cock up the whole works. After the Revolt, the Lords of Judgement interfere with Eastern cultural development in the same way that the "Gods" of _Lord of Light_ interfered with their colonists, insuring that the tech level and cultural level was kept low "for the good of the world". (Consider the turmoil of real world human development over a few thousand years of recorded history, then look at how the Easterners of Dragaera appear to have had a mostly stable and technologically/socially "frozen" level of culture for hundreds of thousands of years.) Where's Mahasamatman when you need him? For that matter, if Steve keeps finding it Cool to write about Vlad, will _The Final Contract_ ultimately find Vlad playing Sam's role as the guy who liberates the world from the yoke of the Gods so that it can determine its own destiny? Maybe not, given that Paarfi is writing in a time that should be long after Vlad's death by old age and the Empire appears to be ticking along as it always has. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 18 09:17:07 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:17:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a shark vs tiger problem to me, but note that a spacefaring civ is likely to have nasty stuff like tailored viruses and intelligent Von Neumann machines (and intelligentish soldier beetles or ants for that matter) and gray nanogoo, stuff the Empire wouldn't be able to cope with. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 09:24:12 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:24:12 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <1e7401c61c52$39337f10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1e7401c61c52$39337f10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CE79BC.3030501@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >Where's Mahasamatman when you need him? For that matter, if Steve keeps >finding it Cool to write about Vlad, will _The Final Contract_ ultimately >find Vlad playing Sam's role as the guy who liberates the world from the >yoke of the Gods so that it can determine its own destiny? > >Maybe not, given that Paarfi is writing in a time that should be long after >Vlad's death by old age and the Empire appears to be ticking along as it >always has. > > > Great things can happen outside of Paarfi's "world". From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 18 09:26:46 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:26:46 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1e8d01c61c54$5bd03480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Taking on Jenoine with only > >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of > >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. > > Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) > Considering that House Dzur is noted as rivaling House Athyra in wizard production, I'd imagine there must be quite a few of them. I think it may be a mistake to think of your typical Dzur hero as a tank who just wades in and wallops everything in sight. In fact, if Tazendra is at all typical, quite the opposite is true. Dzur live for the battle, but they develop as many skills as they require in order to fight the battle and win. Sure, every Dzur hopes for a glorious death facing odds of 100:1, but winning against those odds is a whole lot more glory. Tazendra had no compunction about using every advantage or trick she could. She just didn't expend a whole lot of thought and energy on tactical planning. That's why you keep a Tiassa around. *heh* In any case, this suggests that being a skilled sorceror is more likely the rule in House Dzur than the exception. I imagine that there have been a lot of armies that lost to a company or two of Dzur because they fell prey to the delusion that a Dzur is all brawn and no brains. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 10:26:21 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:26:21 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601181026j6cce668uf2896e6734704fca@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Security: Can radio signals be intercepted via sorcery? Can psionic > communications be intercepted via technology? Intercepted *and* decrypted. We're not dealing with WWII technology here. > Reliability/Efficiency: As long as the Empress and the Orb remain > unmolested, psionic communication through her is 100% reliable, and since > all communication is channeled through one "server", it is centralized, > and very efficient. If she goes down, however, all is lost. (I guess you'd > call this "All your eggs in one basket" syndrome.) Technology wise, a > distributed radio network system is more robust, but less efficient while > operational. A distributed radio network is far more efficient than communicating through the Empress, even assuming she's willing to act as a relay. The Empress will have a very low throughput; it's far more likely you'd be using point-to-point psionic communication as we typically see in the /Vlad/ novels. > Ease of use: One on one, psionics wins. In a broadcast-style communique, > radio would appear to have the advantage. Nolo contendere. > The only reason Blackwand and Pathfinder didn't immediately dispatch the > Jenoine in /Issola/ is because they had developed their own > Orb-equivilent, and were therefore using sorcery to defend themselves, so > this doesn't really count as "technology countering sorcery", it was > sorcery countering sorcery. It was only at that point that the Jenoine's > stun-gun technology became the deciding factor. I was actually thinking of the battle at the end, before the Jenoine re-established their link to the amorphia. I recall that it was stated in the text that the Jenoine wouldn't be able to use sorcery before recovering the link, which means the initial defense was conducted using other means. It didn't seem to make things any easier on the Lords of Judgment. > To a point. Depends on how effective the technology is in taking out the > people who are trained in sorcery. > > Gatling gun vs Sethra Lavode, who wins? Yes, but that's a separate point. (I'd add: "Project Thor vs. Sethra Lavode, who wins?") > And the "ammunition" on the side of sorcery in this case is really > "amorphia" not "people". You have to have people to fire the weapons. It's > just a lot easier to train someone to fire a gun than it is to teach them > to use sorcery (apparently). *This* is really the advantage that > technology has in this case. Nolo contendere. > >I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but > >they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, > >judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only > >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of > >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. > > Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) That was my point. Even trained sorcerers seem to be far less competent with sorcery than Jenoine are. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 10:53:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:53:52 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <9E8DC9A8-590A-43DC-9169-0735A15BCCDC@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/17/06 08:12 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities >On Jan 17, 2006, at 3:46 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> For the Wiki, I've decided to go with "Castlerock", given Steven's >> answer, >> seeing that this is apparently the "fully evolved" version of the >> name. > >I have only one word for you. > >That word is "ford" Meaning ford as in "Ben", ford as in "Gazla", ford as in "Ara", ford as in "Furd" I take it? Well, yes. I wasn't really trying to imply that "Castlerock" wouldn't evolve into something else later on, just that this was the form it had evolved to up to this point. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 11:13:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:13:22 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601181026j6cce668uf2896e6734704fca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson 01/18/06 10:26 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc SKZB List , dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) >Intercepted *and* decrypted. We're not dealing with WWII technology here. Even WWII had encryption (The Enigma Machine was a type of encryption, for example). It was just encryption that was breakable once computers were invented to decipher the keys. Can sorcery be used to decipher complicated mathematical problems? I'll be a Hawk could tell you. "P" vs "NP". Who wins? ;-) Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your enemies' strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. >> The only reason Blackwand and Pathfinder didn't immediately dispatch the >> Jenoine in /Issola/ is because they had developed their own >> Orb-equivilent, and were therefore using sorcery to defend themselves, so >> this doesn't really count as "technology countering sorcery", it was >> sorcery countering sorcery. It was only at that point that the Jenoine's >> stun-gun technology became the deciding factor. > >I was actually thinking of the battle at the end, before the Jenoine >re-established their link to the amorphia. I recall that it was stated >in the text that the Jenoine wouldn't be able to use sorcery before >recovering the link, which means the initial defense was conducted >using other means. It didn't seem to make things any easier on the >Lords of Judgment. They had lost their link to the Lesser Sea of Amorphia. They had *not* lost their link to their own chunk of trellanstone, or to all the amorphia they had already "gathered" into their own "place". Hence, this was still sorcery they were using for defense, even at this point in the story. That could be an important point to bear in mind for future stories, the Jenoine now have some finite amount of amorphia in their possesion, and a trellanstone to channel it through. This obviously makes Godslayer a much more important tool to have for the defense of Dragaera, considering it's the only thing we've seen that can effectively fight a Jenoine armed with sorcery. Vlad may have to "correct" the oversight that left the Jenoine in control of their amorphia at some point. >Yes, but that's a separate point. (I'd add: "Project Thor vs. Sethra >Lavode, who wins?") Now *that's* a story I'd like to see. ;-) >> >I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but >> >they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, >> >judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only >> >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of >> >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. >> >> Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) > >That was my point. Even trained sorcerers seem to be far less >competent with sorcery than Jenoine are. Well, in their brute-force use of sorcery the Jenoine are at least very powerful. They do tend to come across as especially unsubtle (i.e. stupid) users of sorcery. I'm not sure how well this impression is justified, however. Majikjon From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 18 11:16:57 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:16:57 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> Maximilian Wilson wrote On 01/17/06 18:34,: > Disadvantages: > 1. Sorcery is very common among Dragaerans. The key question is > exactly *how* good the average Dragaeran can be expected to be. If a > typical soldier is good enough to set off the ammunition in a rifle at > 300 yards, my options become more limited. Same thing if the typical > soldier is good enough to see in the dark as if it were daylight. If > he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin > and shoot him. > 2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport > armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter > from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > 3. *Powerful* sorcerers exist among the Dragaerans. Then again, even > Sethra doesn't seem to be able to make armies fall over dead. This > will probably affect my morale more than my operations, although if I > make the wrong mistakes it may also make them more costly, e.g. if > Sethra drops an amorphia bomb onto my central command post. I think you might also add the advantage necromancy can add to the Dragaeran forces. If all your soldiers are getting up after being killed and turning their AK47s on your own army.... Well, I'd not wish to have to report *that* to a superior officer. :) Chris From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 11:25:15 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:25:15 -0700 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CE961B.3080609@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>I have only one word for you. >> >>That word is "ford" > >Meaning ford as in "Ben", ford as in "Gazla", ford as in "Ara", ford as in >"Furd" I take it? >Well, yes. > > Or maybe Fordfordfordfordfordfordford (I forget how many fords in that town's name). From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 11:32:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:32:03 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43CE961B.3080609@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 11:25 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>>I have only one word for you. >>> >>>That word is "ford" >> >>Meaning ford as in "Ben", ford as in "Gazla", ford as in "Ara", ford as in >>"Furd" I take it? >>Well, yes. >> >> >Or maybe Fordfordfordfordfordfordford (I forget how many fords in that >town's name). Bengloarafurd Ford. Ben, Gazla, Ara, Furd, Ford I count five. Of course, some day someone will build a bridge there, and they'll have to rename the town. ;-) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 11:35:10 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:35:10 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CE986E.8000706@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Intercepted *and* decrypted. We're not dealing with WWII technology here. > >Even WWII had encryption (The Enigma Machine was a type of encryption, for >example). It was just encryption that was breakable once computers were >invented to decipher the keys. Can sorcery be used to decipher complicated >mathematical problems? I'll be a Hawk could tell you. > >"P" vs "NP". Who wins? ;-) > >Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your enemies' >strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. > > Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for instance. One way of using many tools could be illustrated in an example of protecting a prize. The first thing to do is make sure all the physical doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the sorcerous doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the watchmen work as designed. Include some cobwebs at strategic spots to discover if someone has entered the prize location. If you can add psionic protections (maybe dread), add them. If you can add witchcraft, add it. The technology that the other guy overlooks is to your advantage. The technology you overlook is to the other guy's advantage. >Well, in their brute-force use of sorcery the Jenoine are at least very >powerful. They do tend to come across as especially unsubtle (i.e. stupid) >users of sorcery. I'm not sure how well this impression is justified, >however. > > > For one thing, they don't think the way we do. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 12:14:39 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:14:39 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601181214x70cf056bmeab9d208a0931eec@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/06, Chris Olson wrote: > I think you might also add the advantage necromancy can add to the > Dragaeran forces. If all your soldiers are getting up after being > killed and turning their AK47s on your own army.... > > Well, I'd not wish to have to report *that* to a superior officer. Oh, that's a good point. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 18 12:22:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:22:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > If all your soldiers are getting up after being killed Just a plug for Joe Dante's "Homecoming" from Showtime's Masters of Horror series. For political junkies at least it's a hoot and a half. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Jan 18 21:33:38 2006 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:33:38 +0000 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: W. Paul Ganley has placed some more copies of the BFL CHAPBOOK #4 up for sale in his ebay store (16 more copies available of the $8.00 edition, as of this posting). http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8374875073QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >From: "Steve Hubbell" >To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >Subject: re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:14:51 +0000 > >Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > >Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and >refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after the >end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to >the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > >The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and numbered >(limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay >store. >As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition >at >$8.00 each plus shipping. > > >>W. Paul Ganley Ebay store listing: >> >>Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>Copyright 2005 by Steven Brust >>published by W. Paul Ganley: Publisher >>and the Buffalo Fantasy League >> >>BFL CHAPBOOK #4 >>This is the fourth chapbook produced featuring the guests of honor at >>Eeriecon (the 2006 guests of honor at Eeriecon are Harry Turtledove, Tanya >>Huff, and Esther Friesner.). Last year's (with Niven, Lumley, and Bishop) >>is nearly sold out. They are published in editions of about 150 numbered >>copies, with the first 20 or 30 being dedicated for hard cover binding. >>They are signed by all three contributors. >> >>This new chapbook features: >>KLAVA WITH HONEY by STEVEN BRUST >>WHAT SLEEPS IN THE SHALLOWS BELONGS TO THE DEEP by JULIE CZERNEDA >>AN INCIDENT AT THE LUNCHEON OF THE BOATING PARTY, by ALLEN M. STEELE. >> >>Because Mr. Brust was unable to attend the convention because of illness, >>he graciously permitted us to send the copies to him for his signature. >>That's why this title is only now being offered on my eBay store. >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8341034245QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE-HC-copy_W0QQitemZ8354785208QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>This chapbook also features a wraparound cover and three interior >>illustrations by Charles Momberger, the artist who also did the cover for >>Chapbook #3. >> >>If you are interested in one of the $50 hardbound copies, please email me >>to that effect and I will put a copy on eBay just for you. Expensive? Yes, >>but these are collectors' items, and the markup is actually only a factor >>of two, much less than most books in your favorite bookstore. >> >>By the way, half of any profits on this project will go to the Buffalo >>Fantasy League to support next year's EERIECON. >> >> >> >>>From: Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A >>>Prologue by Steven Brust >>>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:32:37 +0000 >>> >>>On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>>> >>>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published >>>>in >>>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>> >>> >>>Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) Specifically, >>>I'd >>>hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. >>> >>>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed >>>/ >>>>mentioned on the list before. >>> >>> >>>Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's been >>>a >>>long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have been >>>mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). >>> >>>PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>>chapbooks >>>>with "A Dream of Passion" >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>From: "Steve Hubbell" >>>>To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >>>>Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>>> >>>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published >>>>in >>>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>>> >>>>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was >>>>discussed / >>>>mentioned on the list before. >>>> >>>>BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON CHAPBOOK 4. >>>>USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First >>>>Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J Near >>>>Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What Sleeps >>>>in >>>>the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the >>>>Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) >>>>USD 50.00 >>>>Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 >>>>http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml >>>> >>>>Thanks..... >>>> >>>>PS >>>>I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks >>>>with "A Dream of Passion" > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 08:19:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:19:43 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <43CE986E.8000706@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 11:35 AM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your enemies' >>strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. >> > >Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are >protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers >sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. Well, that was really the point I was asking about. Is there really any way for technology protect against clairvoyance? >Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. >Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for >instance. Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to be in anyone's brain to find it out. >One way of using many tools could be illustrated in an example of >protecting a prize. The first thing to do is make sure all the >physical doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the >sorcerous doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the >watchmen work as designed. Include some cobwebs at strategic spots to >discover if someone has entered the prize location. If you can add >psionic protections (maybe dread), add them. If you can add witchcraft, >add it. But can a purely technological civilization block psionics? Or sorcery? If not, then information gathered in this manner is *not* safe from protection. Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to stop him? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 09:05:12 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:05:12 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFC6C8.9040903@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are >>protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers >>sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. > >Well, that was really the point I was asking about. Is there really any >way for technology protect against clairvoyance? > > I don't know. I expect at a certain level, yes. Everything follows the laws of the universe. But see below. >>Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. >>Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for >>instance. > >Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" >so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to >be in anyone's brain to find it out. > > A bunch of bits requires translation. A brain might be able to pick up a bunch of noise from a similar brain and match it with how it works and come up with a picture. I don't see that a brain could pick up a bunch of bits from a digital camera though, even if the bandwidth of the brain was sufficient. The problem occurs in reverse as well - but with enough research, that would be solvable. The digital transmission from a camera can easily use a different format, encryption, varying speeds and such to make its data unrecognizable without having a similar codec on the other side. >But can a purely technological civilization block psionics? Or sorcery? > > Assuming technology excludes psionics and sorcery, eventually. But again, it shouldn't be an either/or situation. We already know that sorcery can block sorcery. >If not, then information gathered in this manner is *not* safe from >protection. > >Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe >the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to >stop him? > > > If magic is real, then magic *is* a purely science-based technology. But for the answer you're seeking: Eventually. The laws of the universe aren't capricious. Think Clarke's Third Law, with a melding of our technology and magic. There is a tradition that has cold iron interfering with magic. I expect some magic could be bothered more easily than others - Steve hasn't told us that he has received any scientific documents about how magic actually works, but it appears to be reliable and repeatable. That's science and technology. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 09:18:06 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:18:06 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <43CE986E.8000706@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601190918g50da97b5of910e807d28b4065@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe > the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to > stop him? I suspect you couldn't. However, you could mitigate the damage by: 1. Talking in Navajo. (j/k) Though seriously, techno-babble might be almost as good. 2. Concealing and/or changing the meeting location frequently, even if it's just an anonymous tent. 3. Holding discussion in terms of coded resources. "Operation Alpha-Deadstrike is proceeding." This matters less if the clairvoyant can snoop written or electronic materials, but it would be effective against Morrolan's window. 4. Planning for it. This situation is really no different from having an unknown spy in your midst. It's bad in some ways--you have no guarantee of confidentiality--but not in other ways--you can still trust your command staff. Anyone who knows anything about these situations is welcome to speak up. I suspect you'd do a lot of decentralizing command so that there aren't any grand strategy meetings to snoop on, only local command posts. You might also make a practice of giving orders only once, verbally, and then letting your subordinates have autonomy in carrying them out. (This practice would probably be abandoned as soon as it was found to be ineffective vs. psychics. Then again, psychics do have to be present in order to mind-ream someone.) You might also make a practice of not doing anything tricky, period. If you're launching a straightforward frontal assault, who cares if anyone knows about it? However, I suspect that encrypted radio channels are not chiefly designed to prevent eavesdropping in this sense. IMO, this discussion is a bit of a side-issue. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 09:26:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:26:05 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <43CFC6C8.9040903@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 09:05 AM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" >>so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to >>be in anyone's brain to find it out. >> > >A bunch of bits requires translation. A brain might be able to pick up >a bunch of noise from a similar brain and match it with how it works and >come up with a picture. I don't see that a brain could pick up a >bunch of bits from a digital camera though, even if the bandwidth of the >brain was sufficient. > >The problem occurs in reverse as well - but with enough research, that >would be solvable. > >The digital transmission from a camera can easily use a different >format, encryption, varying speeds and such to make its data >unrecognizable without having a similar codec on the other side. Well, granted using clairvoyance to determine what bits are set what way in the memory banks of a spy satellite isn't so useful. But how about just using clairvoynace to look at the same things that the satellite took pictures of? The trick is all in how the magical abilities are applied. >If magic is real, then magic *is* a purely science-based technology. Well, perhaps. Depends on how you define "magic" I suppose. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Any sufficiently explained magic is indistinguishable from technology. >But for the answer you're seeking: Eventually. The laws of the >universe aren't capricious. Think Clarke's Third Law, with a melding >of our technology and magic. There is a tradition that has cold iron >interfering with magic. I expect some magic could be bothered more >easily than others - Steve hasn't told us that he has received any >scientific documents about how magic actually works, but it appears to >be reliable and repeatable. That's science and technology. If magic is a "suspension of natural laws" or even "a substitution of new natural laws", then is it really correct to say that it is science? Different magic-users may suspend natural laws in different ways at different times. What does this do to repeatability? Mightn't this introduce a certain "capriciousness" where natural laws are concerned? Or is the fact that the magician is deliberately suspending or changing the rules in a specific way make it more like science? Are any "natural laws" really "natural" when you start talking about alternate plains of existance where different laws apply? What about the Paths of the Dead, for example? This place is, in Paarfi's terms, created from the dreams of the gods". Is that not by definition capricious and changable? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 09:37:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:37:57 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFCE75.1060108@brazee.net> When I do a Reply to All, included is a CC to Dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info. What is Dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info? Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>The digital transmission from a camera can easily use a different >>format, encryption, varying speeds and such to make its data >>unrecognizable without having a similar codec on the other side. > >Well, granted using clairvoyance to determine what bits are set what way >in the memory banks of a spy satellite isn't so useful. > >But how about just using clairvoynace to look at the same things that the >satellite took pictures of? > > Sure you can have a clairvoyant doing the work of the camera and the software that analyze what it sees to tell someone something interesting happened. That is if you don't have something more productive and cost-effective for him to do. >If magic is a "suspension of natural laws" or even "a substitution of new >natural laws", then is it really correct to say that it is science? > > That's because magic doesn't exist in the world where this definition is used. The Supernatural is beyond nature. So we use it to describe stuff we fantasize about. In this fantasy magic exists, it's part of nature, and can be worked. It is no longer supernatural. >Different magic-users may suspend natural laws in different ways at >different times. > They use natural laws in different ways. Just like we do with technology. >What does this do to repeatability? Mightn't this >introduce a certain "capriciousness" where natural laws are concerned? Or >is the fact that the magician is deliberately suspending or changing the >rules in a specific way make it more like science? Are any "natural laws" >really "natural" when you start talking about alternate plains of >existance where different laws apply? What about the Paths of the Dead, >for example? This place is, in Paarfi's terms, created from the dreams of >the gods". Is that not by definition capricious and changable? > > > Just because sorcery and psionics and witchcraft exist as part of nature doesn't mean that there can't still exist mystics. Paarfi's mystic explanations are like most mystic explanations - not to be depended upon. Even with these technologies which are supernatural to us - there can still be boundaries of stuff that can't exist within the laws of their universe - but can nevertheless be imagined. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 10:27:57 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:27:57 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Howard Brazee" Cc: ; "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:19 AM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb > Howard Brazee > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/18/06 11:35 AM > > To > > cc > SKZB List > Subject > Re: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) > > > > > > > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your > enemies' > >>strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. > >> > > > >Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are > >protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers > >sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. > > Well, that was really the point I was asking about. Is there really any > way for technology protect against clairvoyance? > > >Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. > >Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for > >instance. > > Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" > so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to > be in anyone's brain to find it out. > > >One way of using many tools could be illustrated in an example of > >protecting a prize. The first thing to do is make sure all the > >physical doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the > >sorcerous doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the > >watchmen work as designed. Include some cobwebs at strategic spots to > >discover if someone has entered the prize location. If you can add > >psionic protections (maybe dread), add them. If you can add witchcraft, > >add it. > > But can a purely technological civilization block psionics? Or sorcery? > > If not, then information gathered in this manner is *not* safe from > protection. > > Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe > the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to > stop him? > > Majikjon > > Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, and superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear to her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen before, I would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns come in handy. Jeff - pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 10:46:49 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:46:49 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFDE99.4070806@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As >always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, and >superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear to >her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in >command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire >responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen before, I >would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. > >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns >come in handy. > > > Dragaera has become rich and powerful since the Orb. It appears that its research community has been active. It even has people studying alternative stuff including witchcraft and sorcery - and we see only a small subset of its population. (The surfs don't count much - but picture the scientific & technological growth of the 18th and 19th centuries). On the other hand, they depend quite a bit on the orb - although they have practice fighting without much of its capabilities available. While their behavior doesn't seem as patient as we might expect, it is possible that their research could be slowed down by their long lives. We get the self-centered impression that Dragaera is large and Human land is small. I think of Japanese Shoguns who wanted to conquer China and thus the world when I think of Sethra the Younger's desire to conquer the Humans. It would be interesting to see Admiral Sperry's Great White Fleet, if it weren't for the fact the the Jenoine change the historical analogs. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 10:49:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:49:18 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFDF2E.6050804@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns >come in handy. > >Jeff > > They have found clay sling stones with stamped curses and/or prayers on them in Carthage. Early signs of a convergence between magic and technology. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 10:51:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:51:55 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 10:27 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As >always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, and >superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear to >her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in >command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire >responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen before, I >would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. Hmmm. I'd almost forgotten about the Phoenix Stones. (From Greenaere, not Elde, but the point is a good one.) Yes, this factor would make the odds favor the high-tech side pretty dramatically, if Gold and Black Phoenix stones were available to them in large quantaties. I'd venture to say this factor would make control of Greenaere a critical factor in deciding the outcome of a conflict. Do Phoenix stones block Necromancy? Would they interfere with Morrolan's Window, for example? If so, is it the Gold ones or the Black ones that do it? (On a side note, this could be why Morrolan and Aliera didn't simply use his window to reach Vlad on Greenaere during /Phoenix/, something I'd always kinda wondered about.) >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns >come in handy. The "Javelins" that Vlad used did indeed have metal heads (Vlad & co. would sharpen them up before the attacks)... And presumably so did the "smaller javelins" (Which I always thought was just another name for "arrows", since that term doesn't seem to be one that Dragaerans use). >- pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. Bullets made of Gold Phoenix Stone, perhaps? ;-) Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:26:11 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:26:11 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jeff G." Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb > "Jeff G." > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/19/06 10:27 AM > > To > > cc > > Subject > Re: High Tech vs. the Orb > > > > > >Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As > >always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, > and > >superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear > to > >her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in > >command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire > >responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen > before, I > >would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. > > Hmmm. I'd almost forgotten about the Phoenix Stones. (From Greenaere, not > Elde, but the point is a good one.) > > Yes, this factor would make the odds favor the high-tech side pretty > dramatically, if Gold and Black Phoenix stones were available to them in > large quantaties. I'd venture to say this factor would make control of > Greenaere a critical factor in deciding the outcome of a conflict. > > Do Phoenix stones block Necromancy? Would they interfere with Morrolan's > Window, for example? If so, is it the Gold ones or the Black ones that do > it? > > (On a side note, this could be why Morrolan and Aliera didn't simply use > his window to reach Vlad on Greenaere during /Phoenix/, something I'd > always kinda wondered about.) > > >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? > If > >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against > bullets/artillery > >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns > >come in handy. > > The "Javelins" that Vlad used did indeed have metal heads (Vlad & co. > would sharpen them up before the attacks)... And presumably so did the > "smaller javelins" (Which I always thought was just another name for > "arrows", since that term doesn't seem to be one that Dragaerans use). > > >- pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. > > Bullets made of Gold Phoenix Stone, perhaps? ;-) > > Majikjon > Waste of resources. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a .50 caliber slug through the chest will cramp his style . . . along with the next 3 wizards or so in line with the shot." Jeff -Now thinking of grinding up Phoenix stone into dust to be dispersed aerially onto the battlefield. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 11:32:06 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:32:06 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 11:26 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >Waste of resources. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a .50 caliber slug >through the chest will cramp his style . . . along with the next 3 wizards >or so in line with the shot." Well, just to get through any self-protection force-fields the sorcerers might have. Otherwise the bullet doesn't go through the first one. >-Now thinking of grinding up Phoenix stone into dust to be dispersed >aerially onto the battlefield. Funny. I had exactly the same thought. Only I was thinking of a "Powder Bomb" that would be dropped onto a major city (say Adrilankha) in preparation for dropping a nuclear warhead. (Again, so no kind of city-wide sorcerous force-field could be used to protect the city.) One bomb dropped on Adrilankha. Orb is destroyed. War is over. Majikjon From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Thu Jan 19 11:34:07 2006 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:34:07 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb Message-ID: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192A55B32D@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jeff G. > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:26 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb ... > Jeff > > -Now thinking of grinding up Phoenix stone into dust to be dispersed > aerially onto the battlefield. ... One of the few bits of Blade III (and perhaps elsewhere) I liked was when he (they) dispersed colloidal silver throughout the building ventilation system to incapacitate the vampires. Alternate planes and gates can certainly lead to assorted Thor-like applications (push rocks through gates where they exit one mile above the enemy castle or troops). Ciao, Andrew ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:36:15 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:36:15 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Jeff G." > >- pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. > > Bullets made of Gold Phoenix Stone, perhaps? ;-) I was about to say: "We do have evidence, from Grita's final battle, that magic can block physical attacks, force-field style." But was that really magic? It happened after Grita contacted the Jenoine, who at the time presumably had no access to amorphia and sorcery. (My impression of events in /Issola/ is that the Jenoine had only recently gained access, and that taking out GW wielders was the first thing they did.) If that assumption is correct, it was either done with some other form of Jenoine magic or with super-science technology--it isn't clear which one the Jenoine use, or even whether there is any difference, as Howard Brazee has been pointing out. On the other hand, it could be that sorcery can do exactly the same thing, and the Jenoine was needed only as an alternate power source given lack of access to the Orb. On the gripping hand, Grita was trained in Elder Sorcery, and she *still* needed Jenoine help to pull the force field off; this suggests to me that sniper rounds are likely to be quite effective against the average sorcerer. Even Aliera gets cut up in normal hand-to-hand combat. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:40:32 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:40:32 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191140g721b1ddej9aff16a8e69db42f@mail.gmail.com> One final thought: who here is confident that Paarfi's account of the battle is accurate? It's quite possible that he had two facts: a Jenoine was at the battle, and *spoiler* and *spoiler* both *spoiler* there. The rest could be a dramatic ending to his novel, back-fitted onto those facts. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 11:40:44 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:40:44 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> Martin Wohlert wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >> Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >> introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >> the Empire's history. > > > Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? > Yeah. He never really finished it, did he? Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 11:46:13 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:46:13 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CFEC85.8050302@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of >> time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that >> the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the >> Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. >> >> > Given the way they operate, they probably set up a long-line of > attacks, many designed as feints, and have started executing them > "recently". Of course, we still don't know about the timing of several > of the events that Sethra mentions in /Issola/, the Attack on the > Imperial Palace, for example, or the attack on the Greater Sea of > Chaos. It could be that these earlier attacks happened much further > back in Imperial history. > Given the way they operate, these may not really be what you call attacks. More like: you discover the mice have escaped the lab, & while you are trying to round them up, you also notice they've unlocked the baboon, skunk, poisonous reptile, & elephant cages, & topped it all off by lighting a flame near a hissing container of highly flammable stuff. You've got the Jenoine equivalent of your hands full. It is some time before it dawns on you that these may in fact be hyperintelligent pandimensional mice :-) Snarkhunter From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:47:22 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:47:22 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191145y3137a252ye7e1a972378e7657@mail.gmail.com> References: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191145y3137a252ye7e1a972378e7657@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191147j2be620delc544729b78fe421f@mail.gmail.com> [Forwarded to list] On 1/19/06, Ken Koester wrote: > Martin Wohlert wrote: > > Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? > > > Yeah. He never really finished it, did he? http://www.jerrypournelle.com/progress.html MAMELUKES: Latest Janissaries Novel. I have 65,000 words done of about 80,000. There are many new characters, as well as all -- ALL -- of the old ones. A lot happens. A LOT. Some happens off stage in the High Commission: I have no viewpoint characters who can see that, but the effects will be felt both on Earth and Tran. I've been working pretty steadily on this. Watch out for Ghurkas... Alas, as of Fall 2004 I haven't finished this. It is about next on my schedule, after Burning Tower. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 11:53:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:53:19 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 11:36 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >effective against the average sorcerer. Even Aliera gets cut up in >normal hand-to-hand combat. Probably against the "average" sorcerer. I was more thinking of the Sorceress in Green at the end of /Yendi/. She had some kind of force-field up that Vlad disabled with Spellbreaker, before he could threaten her with the morganti knife. A sniper might have trouble taking her out. (She is a pretty exceptional sorceress, granted.) But a Gold Phoenix Stone bullet might just do it. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 12:01:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:01:03 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191140g721b1ddej9aff16a8e69db42f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 11:40 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >One final thought: who here is confident that Paarfi's account of the >battle is accurate? It's quite possible that he had two facts: a >Jenoine was at the battle, and *spoiler* and *spoiler* both *spoiler* >there. The rest could be a dramatic ending to his novel, back-fitted >onto those facts. Don't forget that *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler* and *spoiler* also *spoiler* there. ;-) We don't really know how much of Paarfi's account is accurate and how much is kethna offal. That is rather deliberate, I'm sure. I don't think we can even count on the fact that a Jenoine was there. But hey, until we have an alternate version, I'm preparred to take it as the "best available version of events". Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 12:03:10 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:03:10 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > >>Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? >> >>Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, >>particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? >> >> > >Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with >taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Assume there are no >funny "technology doesn't work around sorcery" effects, a la Harry >Potter. > >Advantages that are mine: >1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in >the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too >(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. > > Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an army, no matter what you equip them with. >2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and >I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this >means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the >offence. > > Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way to make up the difference in the lands you seize, & a pretty fierce mountain chain at your back. You'll need massive amounts of supplies, with no easy way to get them to the front in the necessary quantities. Bear in mind that the highest sustained rate of advance for an Earth army was that of Genghis/Subotai & the Mongols, back in the 13th century: 20 miles a day, for months. Your advance will top out at about 250 miles from the nearest railhead or sea port. And your advance will probably stick to easy terrain & bad roads. The Chinese showed what happened to armies who do that in Korea in '50. >4. My method of waging warfare will >probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran >perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about >once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations >in the course of 4-5 *years.* > > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to strike your army as being fast & brutal? >5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* >that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range >tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; >high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of >Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy >of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers >firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. > > Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and certainly wouldn't be long-range. >Disadvantages: >1. . . .If >he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin >and shoot him. > > More likely, he makes it rain for days on end along your line of march. Cf the Wehrmacht's experiences with Ukrainian mud in '41. >2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport >armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter >from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > > Which makes you more vulnerable. >Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the >past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High >technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. > > > > Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 19 12:18:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, setting off the motion-sensor arrays, and being blasted to little bits? or: inhaling the camps' tailored viruses and keeling over? or: there are no camps to teleport into since my troops don't sleep because of designed evolution, or are anyway machines. Carry on. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 12:26:56 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:26:56 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43CFF610.2020206@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >>Advantages that are mine: >>1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in >>the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too >>(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. >> >> > >Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an >army, no matter what you equip them with. > > > But different technologies take different amounts of training. The Romans dominated for a while because the best way of fighting at the time required significant training. The British Navy required lots of practice - which the Brits were willing to pay for. But Napoleon's citizen army didn't require as much and his advantage didn't last long. >>2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and >>I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this >>means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the >>offence. >> >> > >Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way >to make up the difference in the lands you seize, & a pretty fierce >mountain chain at your back. You'll need massive amounts of supplies, >with no easy way to get them to the front in the necessary quantities. >Bear in mind that the highest sustained rate of advance for an Earth >army was that of Genghis/Subotai & the Mongols, back in the 13th >century: 20 miles a day, for months. Your advance will top out at >about 250 miles from the nearest railhead or sea port. And your advance >will probably stick to easy terrain & bad roads. The Chinese showed >what happened to armies who do that in Korea in '50. > > > Only if you need to conquer the lands you pass through. If you are after a killing blow (the Orb), you can skip much of the above. Some primitive societies did their wars far away from home, bringing home loot - their objectives weren't to conquer. >>4. My method of waging warfare will >>probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran >>perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about >>once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations >>in the course of 4-5 *years.* >> >> > >Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a >dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to >strike your army as being fast & brutal? > > > Obviously some intelligence is needed. Conquerers have to know about teleportation and how and why it is and isn't used in Dragaeran warfare. >>5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* >>that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range >>tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; >>high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of >>Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy >>of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers >>firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. >> >> > >Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can >hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior >opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what >you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and >certainly wouldn't be long-range. > > > A different definition is tank warfare by dropping tanks into battle on the other side of the world. >>Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the >>past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High >>technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. >> >> >> >> > > >Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. >Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. > >Snarkhunter > > But sorcery has fought sorcery. Adding tech to the mix wouldn't make this knowledge useless. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 12:27:38 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:27:38 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > >On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > >>Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? > >> > >>Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, > >>particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? > >> > >> > > > >Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with > >taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Assume there are no > >funny "technology doesn't work around sorcery" effects, a la Harry > >Potter. > > > >Advantages that are mine: > >1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in > >the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too > >(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. > > > > > > Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an > army, no matter what you equip them with. > > >2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and > >I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this > >means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the > >offence. > > > > > > Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way > to make up the difference in the lands you seize, & a pretty fierce > mountain chain at your back. You'll need massive amounts of supplies, > with no easy way to get them to the front in the necessary quantities. > Bear in mind that the highest sustained rate of advance for an Earth > army was that of Genghis/Subotai & the Mongols, back in the 13th > century: 20 miles a day, for months. Your advance will top out at > about 250 miles from the nearest railhead or sea port. And your advance > will probably stick to easy terrain & bad roads. The Chinese showed > what happened to armies who do that in Korea in '50. > > >4. My method of waging warfare will > >probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran > >perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about > >once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations > >in the course of 4-5 *years.* > > > > > > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a > dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to > strike your army as being fast & brutal? > > >5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* > >that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range > >tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; > >high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of > >Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy > >of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers > >firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. > > > > > > Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can > hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior > opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what > you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and > certainly wouldn't be long-range. > > >Disadvantages: > >1. . . .If > >he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin > >and shoot him. > > > > > > More likely, he makes it rain for days on end along your line of march. > Cf the Wehrmacht's experiences with Ukrainian mud in '41. > > >2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport > >armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter > >from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > > > > > > Which makes you more vulnerable. > > >Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the > >past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High > >technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. > > > > > > > > > > > Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. > Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. > > Snarkhunter > > Sure it has. Look at the campaigns against Africa and India. The locals thought that their swords/spears and bows were high tech. "Look at these fools! All dressed in red coats, how do they hunt like that?" "No bows either, and it looks like most of them only have some sort of odd stick." "I wonder why they are lining up like that? That is no way for a man to fight." "Ah, the one on the horse has a sword, but why is he waving it around?" Boom. There have been so many comparisons between magic and high technology that I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to pick the one they like best. Jeff - wonders what effect the haze over the empire would have on laser designators. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 19 12:27:53 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:27:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > We don't really know how much of Paarfi's account is accurate and how much > is kethna offal. That is rather deliberate, I'm sure. Note that under the assumption that the Paarfiad is vaguely credible, proponents and opponents of Paarfian verity have to cope with the apparent fact that his writings have been published (not censored) and have been read by participants in the events in question without him being dispatched. (There's some wiggle room because a noble might feel above retaliation or correction of the record, or might think that engaging in the argument would be counterproductive.) What this means about Morrolan's true character, or Khaavren's, or Pel's, is quite interesting, I suspect. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 12:33:20 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:33:20 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > > > >>Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, >> >> >setting off the motion-sensor arrays, and being blasted to little >bits? > > > Along with your troops & all your gear. >or: > >inhaling the camps' tailored viruses and keeling over? > > > No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to control. >or: > >there are no camps to teleport into since my troops don't sleep >because of designed evolution, or are anyway machines. > > > Don't have to be asleep to be hit from the rear or from surprise. Sleepless humans are probably beyond the reach of 21st century techonology in any case, if possible at all. Of course, if you want to posit Culture-class technology, complete with knife missles, effector weapons, gridfire, & nano-assassins. . . . Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 12:42:12 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:42:12 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43CFF9A4.6050501@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff G. wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Koester" > > >>Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. >>Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. >> >>Snarkhunter >> >> >> >Sure it has. Look at the campaigns against Africa and India. The locals >thought that their swords/spears and bows were high tech. > > > Neither side was high tech or sorcery in those set-to's. And the Brits got their lunches handed to them in Afghanistan, even so. >- wonders what effect the haze over the empire would have on laser >designators. > > Little to none, if used below haze level. Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 19 12:51:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:51:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > > > > > > > >>Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, > >> > >setting off the motion-sensor arrays, and being blasted to little > >bits? > > > Along with your troops & all your gear. Laser batteries? computer-driven rifles? Anyway, a teleporting enemy would just lob in a bomb. > >inhaling the camps' tailored viruses and keeling over? > > No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came > up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet I take it you're talking present-day tech. I don't know if sorcery would be trivially useful against a sufficiently cleverly designed virus - presumably the spell would have to inspect all the victim's DNA for a recognized sequence. > Of course, if you want to posit Culture-class technology, complete with > knife missles, effector weapons, gridfire, & nano-assassins. . . . Well, I earlier claimed that a space-faring civilization is likely to have military tech beyond what's in our R&D labs. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 13:11:53 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:11:53 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D00099.9060302@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > > >> No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came >> >>up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet >> >> > >I take it you're talking present-day tech. > > A century isn't likely to change this very much. And the original posit ws 21st century tech, IIRC. >I don't know if sorcery would be trivially useful against a sufficiently >cleverly designed virus - presumably the spell would have to inspect all >the victim's DNA for a recognized sequence. > > Maybe it just jacks up the body's natural immune system sky high. We do know that plagues were effective during the Interregnum, & by inference, that they were not a problem when the Orb was active. Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 13:12:54 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:12:54 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D000D6.9010404@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came >up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some >pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to >control. > > Terrorism can use biowar. Gas was effective in WWI. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:14:28 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:14:28 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Ken Koester wrote: > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > >Advantages that are mine: > >1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in > >the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too > >(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. > Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an > army, no matter what you equip them with. There's still a quantitative difference, probably nearly a qualitative difference. It appears to take a *long* time to train a good sorcerer, whereas you can make a decent soldier in less than a year. More to the point, if e.g. motion-sensor guns a la /Aliens/ were found to be useful, I could quickly deploy them in large numbers. It most certainly is a relevant factor. > >2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and > >I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this > >means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the > >offence. > Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way I think Howard made a good point about conquering vs. invading. Logistics are way outside my area of expertise, while you appear to know something about the subject, so to an extent I'm willing to defer. On the other hand, it's hard for me to see how you can possibly argue that technology doesn't help me logistically more than sorcery will help her; your argument implicitly centers on the difficulty of attacking across the Eastern mountains, which, though important strategically, has nothing to do with the relative advantages of high tech vs. sorcery. You may be pointing out the difficulty of subjugating the Dragaeran Empire, but we might just as well be talking about defeating a Dragaeran army of conquest. > >4. Lifespan. If the war is sustained enough, I have more capability to > >absorb and replace losses. I expect this to have more effect on morale > >than on actual operations, though. My method of waging warfare will > >probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran > >perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about > >once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations > >in the course of 4-5 *years.* > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a > dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to > strike your army as being fast & brutal? I restored the text you snipped, which should answer your question. > >5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* > >that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range > >tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; > >high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of > >Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy > >of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers > >firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. > > Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can > hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior > opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what > you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and > certainly wouldn't be long-range. That is precisely what I mean by "long-range tank warfare." However, I also realized that my focus on long-range warfare is a bit gun-shy; thus, a "straightforward" ambush is not intended to be long-range, merely conventional. Perhaps regular grenade launchers would be better than RPGs; I know little about military equipment except that RPGs seem to have a reputation for being robust and simple to operate, but perhaps RPG rounds are closer to bazooka rounds than to regular grenades. > >Disadvantages: > More likely, he makes it rain for days on end along your line of march. > Cf the Wehrmacht's experiences with Ukrainian mud in '41. > >2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport > >armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter > >from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > Which makes you more vulnerable. Which is why it's a disadvantage. Any constraint he can force onto me is an advantage to him. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 13:17:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:17:56 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D000D6.9010404@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 01:12 PM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >Ken Koester wrote: > >>No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came >>up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some >>pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to >>control. >> >> >Terrorism can use biowar. Proof? (And don't just say "G.W. told me so.") >Gas was effective in WWI. Not really. The very *first* gas attack *would* have been effective, but the Germans failed to press the advantage and allowed the Brits to close up their lines again. Shortly after that, gas masks became standard equipment and it never again proved to be a major factor in any engagement. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:19:36 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:19:36 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> <43D000D6.9010404@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:12 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Ken Koester wrote: > > >No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came > >up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some > >pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to > >control. > > > > > Terrorism can use biowar. Gas was effective in WWI. WWI and WWII (and most other conflicts) used chemical weapons, not biological. Jeff - hates MOPP Level 4. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:31:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:31:29 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF9A4.6050501@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Jeff G. wrote: > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Ken Koester" > > > > > >>Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. > >>Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. > >> > >>Snarkhunter > >> > >> > >> > >Sure it has. Look at the campaigns against Africa and India. The locals > >thought that their swords/spears and bows were high tech. > > > > > > > > Neither side was high tech or sorcery in those set-to's. And the Brits > got their lunches handed to them in Afghanistan, even so. > But to the locals, those rifles and cannon were magic. > >- wonders what effect the haze over the empire would have on laser > >designators. > > > > > > Little to none, if used below haze level. > > Snarkhunter > > But thats how I would prefer to use them. Have a couple of attack aircraft orbit at 20k or so, and have several teams of Tac P's designating targets. Alternate between cluster and fuel/air munitions, that should make life interesting for anyone trying sorcerous defense. Jeff - Is not particularly worried about teleporting hit squads From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 13:50:19 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:50:19 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/19/06, Ken Koester wrote: > > >>Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an >>army, no matter what you equip them with. >> >> > >There's still a quantitative difference, probably nearly a qualitative >difference. It appears to take a *long* time to train a good sorcerer, >whereas you can make a decent soldier in less than a year. More to the >point, if e.g. motion-sensor guns a la /Aliens/ were found to be >useful, I could quickly deploy them in large numbers. It most >certainly is a relevant factor. > > > You can get a greenie in less than a year, but he won't know how to move in combat, what is dangerous and what is not, how to keep himself alive and healthy in the field, how not to kill his comrades & a host of other things. And such a soldier would be more equivalent to the average Dragon, anyhow. If you want to compare to an army of sorcerors, then factor in the 20 or so years of education necessary to become the average high tech whiz. As for rapid deployment, check the German armaments production figures for, say, '39-41. It is instructive how long it took them to deploy things in the middle of a war. Heck, compare with how long it has taken the US to deploy Strykers, armored Hummers & trucks, & effective body armor for the troops in Iraq. >I think Howard made a good point about conquering vs. invading. >Logistics are way outside my area of expertise, while you appear to >know something about the subject, so to an extent I'm willing to >defer. > Doesn't really matter; your armies aren't fighting in a vacuum. They have a range. They have needs. High tech armies need enormous amounts of things, just to stay in one place, much less move around. And when they do move around, all that stuff has to move with them. I cut off the flow of juice to your electronics, it just becomes a box somewhat less protective than the equivalent mass of iron. Heck, it takes 3 or 4 or 5--maybe 10-- of your high tech guys totin' beans, just to get one guy to blast out with a directed energy weapon. Invading, defending, conquering--doesn't much matter; unless you suddenly repeal the law of inertia or tap into a *concentrated* energy-everywhere source, you've got an enormous tail to take care of, even if all you do is repel an invader. Even if you repel one at your border--borders are not the factor, distance from railhead/port is. A Dragaeran army has little of that to contend with. Your best counter isn't high tech at all, but to burn all the fields in its path. >I know little about military equipment except that RPGs >seem to have a reputation for being robust and simple to operate, but >perhaps RPG rounds are closer to bazooka rounds than to regular >grenades. > > > They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the best antipersonnel weapons. Snarkhunter From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:09:34 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:09:34 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov><2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > > >I know little about military equipment except that RPGs > >seem to have a reputation for being robust and simple to operate, but > >perhaps RPG rounds are closer to bazooka rounds than to regular > >grenades. > > > > > > > They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're > meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the > best antipersonnel weapons. > > Snarkhunter > > Change that to light armor and unarmored vehicles. Most of the simple to operate, man portable weapons won't do much more than inform a tank driver of your exact location. And as they would be of limited effectiveness in this sort of campaign anyway, I think we can disregard them. A Mark 19, on the other hand, would do nicely. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19.htm Jeff - Rule #37: There is no overkill. There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload" From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 14:27:03 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:27:03 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov><2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D01237.3010307@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff G. wrote: >>They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're >>meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the >>best antipersonnel weapons. >> >>Snarkhunter >> >> >> >> >Change that to light armor and unarmored vehicles. Most of the simple to >operate, man portable weapons won't do much more than inform a tank driver >of your exact location. And as they would be of limited effectiveness in >this sort of campaign anyway, I think we can disregard them. A Mark 19, on >the other hand, would do nicely. > > > Yes, I was writing hastily & meant "armor" in the widest sense, but not really thinking of MBTs. Mark 19 sounds good, not terribly portable though? I wonder if there is a sorcerous shaped charge spell? Snarkhunter From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:32:41 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:32:41 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov><2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> <43D01237.3010307@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:27 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Jeff G. wrote: > > >>They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're > >>meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the > >>best antipersonnel weapons. > >> > >>Snarkhunter > >> > >> > >> > >> > >Change that to light armor and unarmored vehicles. Most of the simple to > >operate, man portable weapons won't do much more than inform a tank driver > >of your exact location. And as they would be of limited effectiveness in > >this sort of campaign anyway, I think we can disregard them. A Mark 19, on > >the other hand, would do nicely. > > > > > > > Yes, I was writing hastily & meant "armor" in the widest sense, but not > really thinking of MBTs. Mark 19 sounds good, not terribly portable though? > > I wonder if there is a sorcerous shaped charge spell? > > Snarkhunter > Depends on who you ask. Most of the Marines I know would happily drag one of those monsters anywhere, as long as they were allowed to shoot it at something when they got there. Jeff -prefers to be dropped of by a vehicle to walking to a fight. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:37:32 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:37:32 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601191140g721b1ddej9aff16a8e69db42f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191437s2f870ac8x445420efc3a14a92@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Don't forget that *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler* > and *spoiler* also *spoiler* there. ;-) Well yes, but I admit I never paid much attention to them. [looks embarrassed] Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:42:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:42:05 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191442j4b5865f3ye281050931da41fe@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Philip Hart wrote: > What this means about Morrolan's true character, or Khaavren's, or Pel's, > is quite interesting, I suspect. Morrolan, for one, is perfectly willing to tolerate rumors about his dispatching entire villages of hapless Easterners on a whim. W/rt Khaavren and Pel, I don't know if you're insinuating that they have similar attitudes, or that the portrayals are accurate enough that they can't object. Or perhaps you're merely noting it as "interesting" without passing judgment yet? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 15:29:33 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:33 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D020DD.8040701@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >Doesn't really matter; your armies aren't fighting in a vacuum. They >have a range. They have needs. High tech armies need enormous amounts >of things, just to stay in one place, much less move around. And when >they do move around, all that stuff has to move with them. I cut off >the flow of juice to your electronics, it just becomes a box somewhat >less protective than the equivalent mass of iron. Heck, it takes 3 or 4 >or 5--maybe 10-- of your high tech guys totin' beans, just to get one >guy to blast out with a directed energy weapon. Invading, defending, >conquering--doesn't much matter; unless you suddenly repeal the law of >inertia or tap into a *concentrated* energy-everywhere source, you've >got an enormous tail to take care of, even if all you do is repel an >invader. Even if you repel one at your border--borders are not the >factor, distance from railhead/port is. A Dragaeran army has little of >that to contend with. Your best counter isn't high tech at all, but to >burn all the fields in its path. > > One place where logistics makes a huge difference is in whether you are doing the invading or the defending. In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to disrupt sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 16:17:07 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:17:07 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D020DD.8040701@brazee.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> <43D020DD.8040701@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191617k3ae5f713w38b4c4868f98751e@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to disrupt > sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - > to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. Bear in mind that Dragaeran armies as seen in the Khaavren Romances and in /Dragon/ are not sorcerous armies, but large conventional armies with sorcerous support. They have fewer supply needs (less "tail" and more "tooth" than a high-tech army), but also less ability to transport goods. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 19 18:44:23 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:44:23 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060119214257.02596e08@cox.net> At 02:40 PM 1/19/2006, Ken Koester wrote: >Martin Wohlert wrote: > >>Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >>>My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >>>Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >>>introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >>>the Empire's history. >> >> >>Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? >Yeah. He never really finished it, did he? I understand the next book is actually being written. Not that anything by Pournelle is ever produced quickly, of course; it may be a couple of years or more before it's finally done. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From casey at the-bat.net Fri Jan 20 01:40:15 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 04:40:15 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c61da5$84c57420$5800a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet > and refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 > seconds after the end of Issola and almost immediately > introduces the readers (and Vlad) to the Lavode in training > which Sethra mentioned in Issola. OK, I'm sure it will have been edited before it hits the bookstore shelves, but Klava with Honey is quite an appetizing teaser. It's clearly the prologue to Dzur. Which was well in hand by last April when the chapbook was put together. I have only one question. Will we ever learn why the skies are lit up on Ascension Day? I needed a pick-me-up. It's been a long year. Yes, I said year. The legislators of the state of Georgia have much to answer for. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 10:19:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:19:19 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191617k3ae5f713w38b4c4868f98751e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 04:17 PM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >On 1/19/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to disrupt >> sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - >> to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. > >Bear in mind that Dragaeran armies as seen in the Khaavren Romances >and in /Dragon/ are not sorcerous armies, but large conventional >armies with sorcerous support. They have fewer supply needs (less >"tail" and more "tooth" than a high-tech army), but also less ability >to transport goods. Just what makes a "Sorcerous Army"? As we've seen in the books, most Dragaeran all armies are "convential" with a Sorcerer's Corps to supplement the Teckla/Dragon/Dzur infantry units. Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional forces disappear entirely. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 10:26:55 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:26:55 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D12B6F.9080001@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Just what makes a "Sorcerous Army"? > >As we've seen in the books, most Dragaeran all armies are "convential" >with a Sorcerer's Corps to supplement the Teckla/Dragon/Dzur infantry >units. > >Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and >more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional >forces disappear entirely. > >Majikjon > > I suppose this argument is like comparing using an army with artillery. The Air Force didn't make the Army obsolete. It changed Naval battles significantly. And now it changes logistics a lot. But somebody has to take the objective. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 20 10:30:20 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: Message-ID: > Subject > Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > > > > > >On 1/19/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to > disrupt > >> sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - > >> to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. > > > >Bear in mind that Dragaeran armies as seen in the Khaavren Romances > >and in /Dragon/ are not sorcerous armies, but large conventional > >armies with sorcerous support. They have fewer supply needs (less > >"tail" and more "tooth" than a high-tech army), but also less ability > >to transport goods. > > Just what makes a "Sorcerous Army"? > > As we've seen in the books, most Dragaeran all armies are "convential" > with a Sorcerer's Corps to supplement the Teckla/Dragon/Dzur infantry > units. > > Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and > more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional > forces disappear entirely. > > Majikjon > > > Heh. That is an argument that is as old as military technology. Change "Sorcerer" to "Stealth" (I hate that word) and the reference to aircraft, for example. Jeff -It's "low observable", damnit!!! From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 10:43:46 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:43:46 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/20/06 10:30 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >> >> Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and >> more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional >> forces disappear entirely. >> >Heh. That is an argument that is as old as military technology. Change >"Sorcerer" to "Stealth" (I hate that word) and the reference to aircraft, >for example. Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it away from me." Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jan 20 11:00:48 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:48 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D13360.6040004@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that >stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it >away from me." > >Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. > > > And *that* argument has been made for Verra knows how long as well. >An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce >forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to >my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, >but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground >forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces >takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. > > > > Not quite, although I'm sure it appeared that way at the time. What actually happened is that the Serbian army had dispersed--more or less successfully--to avoid attrition & destruction from the air during the bombing campaign. NATO made it clear that ground troops would be unlikely to follow on any time soon, so this was a viable strategy to use while playing for time & fraying the very thin sensibilities of the Western world; no penalty would befall a Serbian army thus spread out. But when the Albanian guerilla forces--recovered from previous rough handling at the hands of the Serbs--began to move out and engage the Serbs & when they began to coordinate with NATO air activity, it became immediately clear to the Serbs that this was a losing strategy, and one that would lose in days, not months & perhaps not even weeks. So they sued for peace. I agree, the turnabout was very rapid & did not involve formed units of conventional troops invading Kosovo. But it came about only from the imminent & actual pressure of ground troops, combined with a few forward observers who could call in air strikes. Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 11:05:51 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:05:51 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that >stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it >away from me." > >Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. > >An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce >forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to >my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, >but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground >forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces >takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. > >Majikjon > > You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 20 12:01:14 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:01:14 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that > >stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it > >away from me." > > > >Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. > > > >An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce > >forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to > >my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, > >but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground > >forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces > >takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. > > > >Majikjon > > > > > > You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military > goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go > home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. > > We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. I'm not sure if you are insinuating that the bombing of Japan was an act of terrorism? (That is a whole 'nother argument!) As far as assassination, that was "legal" until the Carter administration as I recall, and that is more of a self inflicted restraint rather than any rule of war. Jeff -Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 12:32:06 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:32:06 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43D148C6.501@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >> >> You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military >> goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go >> home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. >> >> We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. > > >I'm not sure if you are insinuating that the bombing of Japan was an act of >terrorism? (That is a whole 'nother argument!) As far as assassination, that >was "legal" until the Carter administration as I recall, and that is more of >a self inflicted restraint rather than any rule of war. > > I was just listing some examples of achieving objectives of war without directly taking and holding territory. >Jeff >-Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war >with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . > > If it is the latter, it is an even better example. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 12:35:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:35:33 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601201235r229a982br7c6809837f76d4d2@mail.gmail.com> On 1/20/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > -Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war > with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . > I tend to think that deterring the Russians was a major factor in the decision process, in particular the decision to drop a second bomb. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 14:28:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:28:26 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/20/06 11:05 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that >>stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it >>away from me." >> >>Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. >> > > >You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military >goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go >home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. > >We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. You have to hold some territory *somewhere* in order to win. Maybe you didn't have to take it away from your opponent, but at least you had to keep him from taking yours away from you. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 14:31:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:31:12 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601201235r229a982br7c6809837f76d4d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/20/06 12:35 PM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >On 1/20/06, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> -Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war >> with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . >> > >I tend to think that deterring the Russians was a major factor in the >decision process, in particular the decision to drop a second bomb. Well, but it also certainly had a major effect on the politics of the cold war. How likely would it have been for the Cuban Missile Crisis to have escalated to full-out nuclear war if we hadn't had examples of just exactly how terrible such weapons could really be? Compare this to what many (including Vlad) seem to feel about the use of Elder Sorcery following the horrific example of Adron's Disaster. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 14:44:53 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:44:53 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D167E5.70105@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >You have to hold some territory *somewhere* in order to win. Maybe you >didn't have to take it away from your opponent, but at least you had to >keep him from taking yours away from you. > >Majikjon > If that's your goal. If your goal is revenge, then this isn't a priority. If your goal is to destroy the minions of Satan, then this isn't a priority. If your goal is to simply cause the state to be repressive enough so that the people rebel - then this isn't a priority. A war directed by gods may have inscrutable goals. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jan 22 11:31:21 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:31:21 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > I haven't seen any evidence that the Jenoine found Easterners interesting as > anything other than breeding stock/control group. But why Easterners, rather than cat centaurs, Serioli, or even keep uplifting (lower-case) jhereg? Or are the cat centaurs and Serioli also Jenoine experiments? > I think I posted this speculation already, but my idea on this is that the > creation of those Dragaerans who became the e'Kieron line was the goal of > the experiment. The success of the breeding program was likely the event > that triggered the revolt of Verra and her fellow slaves. I don't believe > the others are supressed. They just don't have the "genetic" patterns to > support the ability. (When you're talking "genes" that are a part of the > soul instead of the body you're talking something other than what we think > of as genetics anyway.) OK - but in that case, why are you arguing that the Easterners weren't special to begin with? If I was going for an ability to create raw amorphia under conscious control, I'd like to start with something that had the beginnings of it, given that it doesn't really look like the Jenoine had it and could splice it in another species. > Nope, we don't really know how much time passed between the Revolt and the > Migration. Aliera and Vlad (who both have the amorphia summoning ability) > represent Kieron's siblings, so Kieron was certainly not the first of the > "genetic" line. He was simply the first one famous enough to warrant the > rest of the family naming themselves in honor of him. There were probably a > few generations of parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc... before him, > but again we don't know one way or the other. Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. That's why I think that if Kieron wasn't lab-bred, or at least second generation, it kinda throws a spanner into the idea that the revolt of the servants of the Jenoine was because they succeeded in getting one raw amorphia producing Dragaeran. Dragaeran crossbreeds exist, so what's stopping a bit of hanky-panky between House members, and thus more lines that have the ability? OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers - anyone know of any textevd?) Shrug - I think I still like being Watsonian, and assuming that the little throwaway comment about blondes being unheard of in the House of the Dragon except in the e'Kieron line suggests that there is something hiding in the background of Kieron that isn't pure Dragon. Easterner or Phoenix then becomes a possibility. Karen From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 18:44:10 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:44:10 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601221843q261c844tfa014942b0ec2833@mail.gmail.com> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <2ddbda5f0601221843q261c844tfa014942b0ec2833@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> On 1/22/06, K Kuhn wrote: > > OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly > still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that > can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers > - anyone know of any textevd?) Nothing explicit, but e'Drien + 'Kieron = Morrolan e'Drien, e'Kieron + = Aliera e'Kieron, e'Lanya + = Norathar e'Lanya. Unfortunately, Morrolan's is the only case where the mother is known to belong to a Dragon line different than the father's. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 23:48:11 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:48:11 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <2ddbda5f0601221843q261c844tfa014942b0ec2833@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/22/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/22/06, K Kuhn wrote: > > > > OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly > > still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that > > can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers > > - anyone know of any textevd?) > > > Nothing explicit, but e'Drien + 'Kieron = Morrolan e'Drien, e'Kieron + > = Aliera e'Kieron, e'Lanya + = Norathar e'Lanya. > Unfortunately, Morrolan's is the only case where the mother is known to > belong to a Dragon line different than the father's. > "E'Drien, the same line as my esteemed mother, although I am inclined to think I take more after the e'Terics line of my father." -- A Dragon soldier that Clari has a conversation with, /The Lord of Castle Black/ (he's referring to Morrolan, which leads into the first part of his statement) From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 04:51:52 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 05:51:52 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based solely on how genetic traits are passed doesn't work. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 07:14:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:14:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/22/06 06:44 PM To SKZB List cc Subject the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/22/06, K Kuhn wrote: >> >> OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly >> still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that >> can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers >> - anyone know of any textevd?) > >Nothing explicit, but e'Drien + 'Kieron = Morrolan e'Drien, e'Kieron + > = Aliera e'Kieron, e'Lanya + = Norathar e'Lanya. >Unfortunately, Morrolan's is the only case where the mother is known to >belong to a Dragon line different than the father's. Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than their father's. Of course, the conventional rules of naming may go out the window when you're talking about the founder of an entire lineage. We don't have firm gender info about most of the other lineage namesakes, except for Kieron and Baritt, who are both male. Terics and Marish'Chala's gender are not specified. Tenith, Mondaar, and Zisya are not ever specifically mentioned, other than as the names of existing lineages. It is possible that Terics e'Marish'Chala was female (although I speculate that he was *not*). Drien, of course, was *both* so this doesn't help much, either. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 08:14:28 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:14:28 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <224a01c62038$162c57a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers > and sisters, > >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only > ones with the > >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > > > If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based > solely on how > genetic traits are passed doesn't work. Precisely. The amorphia summoning/creation/conversion ability is attached to Vlad's soul, not to his physical genetic pattern. It's part of his "mystical genetic pattern". The mixing of the physical genetic patterns between lines is irrelevant. We don't really know how much of Aliera's "genetics" involves the genetic pattern of the body and how much of it involves the genetic pattern of the soul. As for the question of Easterners being "special", I think the original position being taken was that the Eastherners must somehow be "more special" than the Dragaerans. Hence the speculation that all Easterners could summon amorphia and they just weren't aware of it. The textev at this point in the cycle doesn't support that conclusion. Rather, it supports the conclusion that the amorphia-summoning ability requires one to have a Dragaeran soul; perhaps even an "old soul" from a particular generation of souls. Sure, Terrans were "special" to the extent that the Jenoine could experiment with them and "genaform" them where they couldn't/wouldn't do it to themselves. Heck, maybe Jenoine don't have souls, at least not as we would understand the concept. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 08:24:19 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:24:19 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <224a01c62038$162c57a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <224a01c62038$162c57a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43D50333.7090709@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >Sure, Terrans were "special" to the extent that the Jenoine could experiment >with them and "genaform" them where they couldn't/wouldn't do it to >themselves. Heck, maybe Jenoine don't have souls, at least not as we would >understand the concept. > > > Heck, maybe Terrans don't have souls, at least not as Paarfi would understand the concept. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 08:41:25 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:41:25 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D50333.7090709@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 08:24 AM To cc "'Dragaera List'" Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Scott Schultz wrote: > >>Sure, Terrans were "special" to the extent that the Jenoine could experiment >>with them and "genaform" them where they couldn't/wouldn't do it to >>themselves. Heck, maybe Jenoine don't have souls, at least not as we would >>understand the concept. >> >> >> >Heck, maybe Terrans don't have souls, at least not as Paarfi would >understand the concept. So... Paarfi doesn't believe in Franz? ;-) Majikjon -I *do* believe in spooks! I *do* believe in spooks! I do, I do, I *do* believe in spooks! From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 08:45:16 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:45:16 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than > their father's. > [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. So how, then, can amorphia creation be restricted to 'Kierons? Or in other words, can *all* e'Kierons create amorphia, or is it found only in a restricted subset of the line, none of whom happened to become e'Lanyas? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 08:52:55 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:52:55 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D50333.7090709@brazee.net> Message-ID: <229401c6203d$74d2e530$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Heck, maybe Terrans don't have souls, at least not as Paarfi would > understand the concept. Good point, though Vlad's encounter with Franz's ghost sort of indicates that Easterners probably have the same sort of soul-preservation-beyond-death thing going on that the Dragaerans have. As with most things Eastern, the Afterlife is undefined and most probably envisioned differently by every Eastern culture. Dragaerans have the advantage(?) of the afterlife being an established scientific fact, if you will. Then again, this is just another satiric riff on Tolkein. The "elfs" go to the Halls of Judgement <=> Halls of Mandos, while the "men" go somewhere mysterious and unknown; or, if Franz is a typical case, nowhere at all. It would be interesting to learn what happens to Vlad/Dolivar's soul after Vlad dies. The impression I have (with no direct textev to support) is that Dolivar's soul hung around all this time and finally reincarnated as an Easterner (i.e. Vlad) due to Karma, judgement by the Gods, or just Dolivar's hatred for everything having to do with the Empire. Is Dolivar's soul an "Eastern soul" now or is it just temporarily housed in a semi-compatible body? From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 08:58:53 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:58:53 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <229401c6203d$74d2e530$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <229401c6203d$74d2e530$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43D50B4D.8030609@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >As with most things Eastern, the Afterlife is undefined and most probably >envisioned differently by every Eastern culture. Dragaerans have the >advantage(?) of the afterlife being an established scientific fact, if you >will. Then again, this is just another satiric riff on Tolkein. The "elfs" >go to the Halls of Judgement <=> Halls of Mandos, while the "men" go >somewhere mysterious and unknown; or, if Franz is a typical case, nowhere at >all. > > There is a very long tradition in myths from Christian countries that the fey won't be saved. Stuff like Mermaids' (souls?) turning into seaweed. Us humans are really better off than those other creatures. I suppose this means that the Church won't object to those who tell the stories about elves and leprechaun and mermaids and all of those seemingly wonderful beings, as long as the storytellers make sure to tell us that they won't be saved the way we are. Of course, they won't be damned either, which the Church doesn't recognize as being advantageous. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 09:09:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:09:59 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 08:45 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the >> e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than >> their father's. >> > >[blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. So how, then, can amorphia >creation be restricted to 'Kierons? Or in other words, can *all* e'Kierons >create amorphia, or is it found only in a restricted subset of the line, >none of whom happened to become e'Lanyas? I've often wondered that same question myself. Note: It's never stated that Lanya e'Kieron could create amorphia, and since she's a dragonlord of the 4th cycle (about 40,000 years after Kieron's time) it's possible the genetics of the e'Kieron line had become diluted by then. Also note, we never see Adron create amorphia, either. Aliera does, but she may have this ability the same way Vlad does, through the soul, rather than through the genetics of her father. In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the beginning of the Empire. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 09:26:13 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:26:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than > > their father's. > > > > [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 09:47:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:47:53 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 09:26 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> > >> > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the >> > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than >> > their father's. >> > >> >> [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. > >Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. > >I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own >character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. Textev for Lanya e'Kieron comes from TPG, pages 402-405 of the paperback edition. (It's contained in a discussion between Uttrik and Kathana e'Merich'Chala). Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 10:20:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:20:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > >> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> > > >> > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > >> > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather > than > >> > their father's. > >> > > >> > >> [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. > > > >Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. > > > >I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own > >character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. > > Textev for Lanya e'Kieron comes from TPG, pages 402-405 of the paperback > edition. (It's contained in a discussion between Uttrik and Kathana > e'Merich'Chala). AFB - are you saying that the line was entirely matrilineal, or only refuting the idea that lines are entirely patrilineal? The above sounds like the former. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 10:24:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:24:48 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 10:20 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >> >> >> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the >> >> > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather >> than >> >> > their father's. >> >> > >> >> >> >> [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. >> > >> >Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. >> > >> >I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own >> >character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. >> >> Textev for Lanya e'Kieron comes from TPG, pages 402-405 of the paperback >> edition. (It's contained in a discussion between Uttrik and Kathana >> e'Merich'Chala). > >AFB - are you saying that the line was entirely matrilineal, or only >refuting the idea that lines are entirely patrilineal? The above sounds >like the former. Sorry about the confusion. I was *not* trying to say that the entire line was matrilineal, but rather that Lanya's direct descendents used their mothers name. Succeding generations may have switched to a male-line tradition, it is not made clear. But the fact that the head of the line was female neccessitates at least one generation of matrilineal naming. Majikjon From steve at romlin.com Mon Jan 23 11:01:33 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:01:33 +0100 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20060123180006.26C51E9402@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060123180006.26C51E9402@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: Now I'm confused -- I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and both times he has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do this? Does anyone? I just checked the wiki to see if there are textrefs for times when someone actually CREATES amorphia but couldn't find any. Thanks for helping out this old man's memory... StY > > In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of > nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, > but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was > available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the > beginning of the Empire. > > > From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 11:06:20 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:06:20 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: <20060123180006.26C51E9402@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <43D5292C.3090308@brazee.net> Steve Rapaport wrote: >Now I'm confused -- > >I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and both times he >has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? > >I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using >amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do >this? Does anyone? > > > I only remember the one time when he's in a bar and actually creates it. But my memory is often faulty. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 11:08:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:08:53 -0800 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Rapaport Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 11:01 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 >> In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of >> nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, >> but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was >> available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the >> beginning of the Empire. >Now I'm confused -- > >I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and both times he >has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? > >I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using >amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do >this? Does anyone? > >I just checked the wiki to see if there are textrefs for times when someone >actually CREATES amorphia but couldn't find any. > >Thanks for helping out this old man's memory... It's true, in /Issola/, Vlad has the chaos stone that he uses to help start the amorphia attack on the Jenoine. But all he had in /Jhereg/ was his link to the Orb, and the knowledge from Aliera that his soul could create amorphia. No chaos stones are involved in this instance. (At least, Vlad mentions none. Given that he was immobilized at the time, it would have been hard for him to use such a stone, even if one were available.) I suspect I need to re-write the article on Elder Sorcery to deliniate the borders between the major "types" of Elder Sorcery a bit more clearly. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 11:47:34 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:47:34 -0800 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24a401c62055$db36d2b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Now I'm confused -- > > I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and > both times he > has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? > > I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using > amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do > this? Does anyone? Anyone with sufficient training (Grita, for instance) can cast spells using amorphia directly. That's Elder Sorcery. When Vlad unleashes the amorphia out of desperation in _Jhereg_, he has none to start with. I don't have the book handy, but I recall that he describes the sorceress he's "hitting" as "collapsing" into a ball of raw chaos (amorphia). Whether he converted her matter into amorhphia or created bit of amorphia inside of her that subsequently consumed her could be up for discussion. The event in _Issola_ was an example of Vlad creating a Chaos Stone from an existing source of amorphia and then releasing it at a later time. It didn't involve creating it from nothing. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 11:55:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:55:42 -0800 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <24a401c62055$db36d2b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 11:47 AM To cc Subject RE: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 >Anyone with sufficient training (Grita, for instance) can cast spells using >amorphia directly. That's Elder Sorcery. Well, that's one *type* of Elder Sorcery. >When Vlad unleashes the amorphia out of desperation in _Jhereg_, he has none >to start with. I don't have the book handy, but I recall that he describes >the sorceress he's "hitting" as "collapsing" into a ball of raw chaos >(amorphia). Whether he converted her matter into amorhphia or created bit of >amorphia inside of her that subsequently consumed her could be up for >discussion. Either way, there's no amorphia present, then boom, there is amorphia present. This is the e'Kieron ability. >The event in _Issola_ was an example of Vlad creating a Chaos Stone from an >existing source of amorphia and then releasing it at a later time. It didn't >involve creating it from nothing. Well, sort of. It is implied by Vlad's description of using the stone that he was just using it to make the process easier... "Like the rendered goosefat becomes a base for the pepper-sauce" (or some similiar simile, I'm paraphrasing here). To me, this says that not just any Elder Sorcerer could de-stabalize a chaos stone like this, that it ties in with his e'Kieron soul abilities. That's just my opinion, granted. However, Vlad seems to *think* that his heritage matters, and he's apparently studied the subject (at least marginally) so he may well be of the correct opinion in this case. The other case of Amorphia being created "out of nowhere" that I can recall is Aliera melting down the wall of Vlad's jail in /Phoenix/. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 13:16:28 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:16:28 -0500 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. Message-ID: I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of Heroes/Villains forusm) and came to my email and realized something: Dragaerans have traditional 'super' powers- i,e, one man/woman being especially powerful, such as Loraan,. Sethra, etc., where they are exceptionally well trained, or have natural powers (amorphia creation) or even genius tactical ability. Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft could be assumed to be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get results ultimately more powerful than sorcery. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 14:18:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:18:07 -0800 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Louis Eastman Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 01:16 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Dragaera and Comics. >I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of Heroes/Villains forusm) and >came to my email and realized something: > >Dragaerans have traditional 'super' powers- i,e, one man/woman being >especially powerful, such as Loraan,. Sethra, etc., where they are >exceptionally well trained, or have natural powers (amorphia creation) or >even genius tactical ability. >Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft could be assumed to >be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get results ultimately >more powerful than sorcery. Look! Up in the sky! Is it a jhereg? Is it Castle Black? No! It's SuperVlad! Faster than a speeding javelin, more powerful than a Great Weapon, He stands for the Truth of a Lyorn, the Justice of an Iorich, and the Dragaerican way! Okay, sorry. I'll stop now. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 14:30:05 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:30:05 -0800 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <266001c6206c$8efbc7e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of > Heroes/Villains forusm) and > came to my email and realized something: Hmmm, I wonder if it's time to resurrect the idea of The Phoenix Guard supergroup... > Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft > could be assumed to > be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get > results ultimately > more powerful than sorcery. Witchcraft is different from sorcery on two counts. The first is that witchcraft is self-powered while sorcery depends upon an external power source. The second is that witchcraft is a "craft" while sorcery is a "science". Sorcery is all about cause and effect. You do A + B + C to get result D. Witchcraft is all about effect. That is, (looking at how Vlad does things) you decide upon an effect and then you just sort of figure out what sorts of activities will bring that effect into being. How you get that effect is a fairly personal thing and is not neccesarily constant from witch to witch. I'd imagine that a book of witchcraft is more like a book of advice than a book of precedures. It's no accident that Vlad and Morollan sound like a pair of chefs comparing recipes when Vlad catches Morollan practicing an unspecified witch spell in _Yendi_. To the extent that witchcraft is free-form and goal-focused instead of process-focused, it IS more powerful than sorcery. The flip side is that witchcraft consumes your personal "energy" and imposes a lassitude of both body and mind in direct proportion to the size of the effect. It's no big deal for a sorceror to move many tons of things from Here to There all day long. Vlad, however, nearly killed himself by attempting to bring something from There to Here. The flip-side being that there doesn't yet exist any sorcery that could duplicate that effect (that we've heard of). So, witchcraft is "more powerful" but the effects are so limited in scope in comparison to the "gross" (in the sense of "large") effects of sorcery that sorcery effectively trumps witchcraft in most ways that matter to the average person. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 14:32:30 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:32:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Louis Eastman > >Dragaerans have traditional 'super' powers [...] > > Look! Up in the sky! [...] There was discussion here after _Issola_ about the "superhero problem", some I suspect under my name. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 23 14:34:47 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:34:47 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:36:42 PST." Message-ID: <200601232234.k0NMYmwk026557@vice-grips.mit.edu> I'm about a month behind on the conversation, but wasn't it established in Phoenix that there were two different types of stones? In their testing at the end of Phoenix, I thought only one affected the link between Vlad and Loiosh. Hopefully the other one is the one that's preventing people from finding him via sorceress means (and prevented people from teleporting out of the jails, if I remember correctly). Has he been carrying them both around? I thought he just had the Gold ones on him. > Jose Marquez > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/11/06 09:01 PM > > To > Dragaera > cc > > Subject > Re: Not a witch? > > > > > >There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh > >can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of > >psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can > > Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than > anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is > different from normal psychic contact. > > There was an internal decision-making process that said, "I need a way to > shield Vlad from Psychic energy to hide him from the Jhereg, but I need to > keep up the ongoing conversations between him and Loiosh while I do so." > > And rather than explaining a contrived difference between Vlad/Loiosh's > conversations and normal psychic ones, Brust simply notes that there *is* > a difference of some kind, and moves along. > > This is not a criticism. In fact, it's a rather elegant way of preventing > a piece of fairly meaningless minutae from getting in the way of a good > story. > > However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science > Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy > (which does not). > > >contact Vlad or even trace him using psionics/psychics because of the > >disruptive field. It also causes him to be unable to contact others. I > >don't remember what the results of Sethra's experiments showed regarding > >the properties of Phoenix Stones. > > No results of this were ever offered to the reader, so it's not surprising > that you don't remember them. ;-) > > Majikjon > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 14:37:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:37:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <200601232234.k0NMYmwk026557@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200601232234.k0NMYmwk026557@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > I'm about a month behind on the conversation, but wasn't it > established in Phoenix that there were two different types of stones? Yes, Vlad has one of each, which he wears or stores in a box made of nevermind. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 23 14:54:55 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:54:55 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:40:34 PST." <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200601232254.k0NMsuoZ026689@vice-grips.mit.edu> > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > width of a single city are: > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ > #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how > far away he and Rocza were during that period) Don't forget the ending of Jhereg, where Vlad teleports with whatshisface and Loiosh gets left behind. From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 15:27:09 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:27:09 -0500 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: <266001c6206c$8efbc7e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <266001c6206c$8efbc7e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Yeah, but get enough witches and you can do anything. I wonder if you had enough witches you could get something from There to There. That would be interesting, because if you got a few thousand witches you could do the equivalent of teleporting an invading army into the Furnace. On 1/23/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of > > Heroes/Villains forusm) and > > came to my email and realized something: > > Hmmm, I wonder if it's time to resurrect the idea of The Phoenix Guard > supergroup... > > > Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft > > could be assumed to > > be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get > > results ultimately > > more powerful than sorcery. > > Witchcraft is different from sorcery on two counts. The first is that > witchcraft is self-powered while sorcery depends upon an external power > source. The second is that witchcraft is a "craft" while sorcery is a > "science". > > Sorcery is all about cause and effect. You do A + B + C to get result D. > Witchcraft is all about effect. That is, (looking at how Vlad does things) > you decide upon an effect and then you just sort of figure out what sorts > of > activities will bring that effect into being. How you get that effect is a > fairly personal thing and is not neccesarily constant from witch to witch. > I'd imagine that a book of witchcraft is more like a book of advice than a > book of precedures. > > It's no accident that Vlad and Morollan sound like a pair of chefs > comparing > recipes when Vlad catches Morollan practicing an unspecified witch spell > in > _Yendi_. > > To the extent that witchcraft is free-form and goal-focused instead of > process-focused, it IS more powerful than sorcery. The flip side is that > witchcraft consumes your personal "energy" and imposes a lassitude of both > body and mind in direct proportion to the size of the effect. It's no big > deal for a sorceror to move many tons of things from Here to There all day > long. Vlad, however, nearly killed himself by attempting to bring > something > from There to Here. The flip-side being that there doesn't yet exist any > sorcery that could duplicate that effect (that we've heard of). > > So, witchcraft is "more powerful" but the effects are so limited in scope > in > comparison to the "gross" (in the sense of "large") effects of sorcery > that > sorcery effectively trumps witchcraft in most ways that matter to the > average person. > > From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Jan 23 20:29:18 2006 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:29:18 -0600 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060124042919.BKEA8484.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 6:52 AM Cc: 'Dragaera List' Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) K Kuhn wrote: >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > >If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based solely on how >genetic traits are passed doesn't work. How does the soul interact with genetics and reincarnation? I believe the answer was 'oddly' There is magical influence of the house on genes, and the genes influence personality. Dolivar shared kieron's genetics. In fact, it could be argued that since Vlad is dolivar reincarnate, his soul 'genetics' is purer than anyone alive in regard to amorphia manipulation/creation (with the obvious exception of aliera and Sethra) Andy I'm tired. If this makes no sense, MEH! To you. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 24 08:49:59 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:49:59 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:43:03 MST." Message-ID: <200601241649.k0OGnx9a000792@vice-grips.mit.edu> Ordered mine today. I'm glad there were still a few left. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff G." > To: > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Hubbell" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM > > Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > > > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > > > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after > > the > > > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) > to > > > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > > > > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > > numbered > > > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay > > store. > > > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard > edition > > at > > > $8.00 each plus shipping. > > > > > 14 left now. > > > > Jeff > > - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . > > Addendum: Apparently this was meant to be, the price with shipping was > $9.60, and the amount in my PayPal account was $9.61 Interesting. . . > > Jeff > - is not nearly as creeped out by this as his wife would be. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 24 08:54:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:54:29 -0700 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust References: <200601241649.k0OGnx9a000792@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joy Jennifer Nicholson" To: "Jeff G." Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Ordered mine today. I'm glad there were still a few left. > I received mine a few days ago, it was in good shape and well packaged. And I am relieved to find out that someone else has a signature almost as indecipherable as mine. Jeff From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jan 24 09:31:23 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:31:23 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: References: <200601241649.k0OGnx9a000792@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joy Jennifer Nicholson" > To: "Jeff G." > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:49 AM > Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > >> >> Ordered mine today. I'm glad there were still a few left. >> > I received mine a few days ago, it was in good shape and well > packaged. And > I am relieved to find out that someone else has a signature almost as > indecipherable as mine. > > Jeff > Got mine too. It was eerie... From berni12 at comcast.net Tue Jan 24 13:30:12 2006 From: berni12 at comcast.net (berni12 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:30:12 +0000 Subject: Steve's old web log.. Message-ID: <012420062130.28638.43D69C63000E6CCE00006FDE2200734076CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> My appologies for this off topic post... In the old web log I remember Stave posting a blog that discussed how happy he was with some on-line poker web site he ws using. I have tried to pull up the old blog but can't so I was hoping someone remembered the poker site's name or could point me to somewhere the old log can be viewed.. thanks in advance... B. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 24 21:32:49 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:32:49 -0800 Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <012420062130.28638.43D69C63000E6CCE00006FDE2200734076CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> References: <012420062130.28638.43D69C63000E6CCE00006FDE2200734076CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/24/06, berni12 at comcast.net wrote: > My appologies for this off topic post... > > In the old web log I remember Stave posting a blog that discussed > how happy he was with some on-line poker web site he ws using. The only bit in his log that looks even vaguely like being "happy" with an online poker reference is this, posted Tue Jun 15th, 2004 8:36 AM: "I've also been playing online poker some, at UltimateBet, and doing pretty well. " UltimateBet is indeed an online poker site, I see, but I feel no personal inclination to examine it more closely. Caveat Aleator. Much better, in terms of Steve Brust writing about poker, is this: (posted Sat Jun 8th, 2002 12:06 AM) [cite] Well, I now have most of the outline for my new poker book: Chapter 1. How to slowplay until you're beat and then check raise. Chapter 2. Drawing dead and getting there. Chapter 3. How to bluff the nuts into the guy who has them. Chapter 4. How to prevent bad beats by always going in with the worst hand. Chapter 5. How to put your opponent on a hand you can beat so you can call. Chapter 6. Chasing with overcards and other loss leaders. Chapter 7: Bad call justifications: A) I was in the blind, so I was already half in. B) They were suited C) My good hands are getting beat, so I have to play this stuff. D) In a game like this, you can't win playing just the good cards. Appendix: Lecturing your opponents on how you would have won if they'd played right. [/cite] From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 25 07:06:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:06:15 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yeah, but get enough witches and you can do anything. >I wonder if you had enough witches you could get something from There to There. >That would be interesting, because if you got a few thousand witches you >could do the equivalent of teleporting an invading army into the Furnace. That's really the biggest thing that stands out to me about the advantage witchcraft has over sorcery. A sorcerer has to be extremely powerful in order to channel and contain the amorphia that forms a spell without having it destroy them. A witch has the same kind of problem if they run themselves out of pyschic energy. When you put two sorcerers together, their abilities can operate simultaneously, but are entirely separate. So it's an arithmatic function. 4 sorcerers + 4 sorcerers = 8 sorcerers. But when you put two witches together, their abilities interact and enhance each other, meaning it's more like they are multiplied... 4 witches x 4 witches = 16 witches. With low numbers like one or two witches, this doesn't make much of a difference, 2+2=4 and 2x2=4 also, so this is a wash. But the larger the numbers are in your groups of sorcerers vs witches, the more of an advantage the witches would have. In addition, there seem to be extra bonuses for the witches when they form a circle of 34... And when the number of circles reach specific points. (17 and 34 maybe?) So, with 289 witches vs 289 sorcerers, the sorcerers are really only as powerful as their strongest member. Whereas the witches power just keeps growing with their numbers. What could they do with such power? Teleport an invading army into the furnace? Sure. But why think small? Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 25 08:00:18 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:00:18 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Louis Eastman" Cc: "Dragaera" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:06 AM Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? > >Yeah, but get enough witches and you can do anything. > >I wonder if you had enough witches you could get something from There to > There. > >That would be interesting, because if you got a few thousand witches you > >could do the equivalent of teleporting an invading army into the Furnace. > > > That's really the biggest thing that stands out to me about the advantage > witchcraft has over sorcery. > > A sorcerer has to be extremely powerful in order to channel and contain > the amorphia that forms a spell without having it destroy them. A witch > has the same kind of problem if they run themselves out of pyschic energy. > > When you put two sorcerers together, their abilities can operate > simultaneously, but are entirely separate. So it's an arithmatic function. > 4 sorcerers + 4 sorcerers = 8 sorcerers. > > But when you put two witches together, their abilities interact and > enhance each other, meaning it's more like they are multiplied... 4 > witches x 4 witches = 16 witches. > > With low numbers like one or two witches, this doesn't make much of a > difference, 2+2=4 and 2x2=4 also, so this is a wash. > > But the larger the numbers are in your groups of sorcerers vs witches, the > more of an advantage the witches would have. > > In addition, there seem to be extra bonuses for the witches when they form > a circle of 34... And when the number of circles reach specific points. > (17 and 34 maybe?) > > So, with 289 witches vs 289 sorcerers, the sorcerers are really only as > powerful as their strongest member. Whereas the witches power just keeps > growing with their numbers. > > What could they do with such power? Teleport an invading army into the > furnace? Sure. But why think small? > > Majikjon > > > > > > But. . . . With 289 sorcerers you can have 289 different spells, whereas witchcraft does not seem to be good at multitasking. Also, is there any textev showing sorcerers cannot work together on a spell? It is implied by the works of most of the characters that we see, but they are all sufficiently powerful that they don't require any assistance. The concept of spell wagons, sorcerers corps, hint that same sorcerers work together, and Daymars offer of assistance to Vlad while performing a spell (a witchcraft spell, I know) shows that the concept at least exist. Jeff P.S. Also, didn't Sethra and Daymar work together to "avoid" the Phoenix stones? Or was that simply two concurrent spells? I don't know if that was ever definitively answered in the text. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 25 08:23:35 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:23:35 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/25/06 08:00 AM To , cc Subject Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? ----- Original Message ----- From: >> >> But when you put two witches together, their abilities interact and >> enhance each other, meaning it's more like they are multiplied... 4 >> witches x 4 witches = 16 witches. >> >> With low numbers like one or two witches, this doesn't make much of a >> difference, 2+2=4 and 2x2=4 also, so this is a wash. >> >> But the larger the numbers are in your groups of sorcerers vs witches, the >> more of an advantage the witches would have. >But. . . . > >With 289 sorcerers you can have 289 different spells, whereas witchcraft Well, there's the example of what Morrolan's Circle did against Tri'nagore. They nullified his protections, allowing Blackwand to "kill" him, while (presumably) also keeping Castle Black from falling out of the sky. This is, by my count, a coven doing two things at once. The question then becomes: What the limit is in terms of "threads" of tasks that a circle of witches can handle? >does not seem to be good at multitasking. Also, is there any textev showing >sorcerers cannot work together on a spell? It is implied by the works of I believe Vlad comments on this inability of sorcerers to work as a "team" when he's describing witchcraft right near the beginning of /Jhereg/. Maybe it's only by implication, but it's something he holds up as one of the examples of how witchcraft is different from sorcery. >most of the characters that we see, but they are all sufficiently powerful >that they don't require any assistance. The concept of spell wagons, >sorcerers corps, hint that same sorcerers work together, and Daymars offer >of assistance to Vlad while performing a spell (a witchcraft spell, I know) >shows that the concept at least exist. Certainly, the more sorcerers there are, the more different things they can do, and the more they can perform concurrent spells that have effects that complement one another. (Example, one sorcerer levitates a 50 gallon barrell of Kerosene, and another causes it to explode.) But its the combined cumulative power of the witches that's superior. Even Sethra Lavode can only channel so much power. But with large covens of witches, you could have the power-equivilent of several Sethras. >P.S. Also, didn't Sethra and Daymar work together to "avoid" the Phoenix >stones? Or was that simply two concurrent spells? I don't know if that was >ever definitively answered in the text. The way I read it, this is another example of concurrent, separate spells whose effects complement one another. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 09:04:22 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > But its the combined cumulative power of the witches that's superior. Even > Sethra Lavode can only channel so much power. But with large covens of > witches, you could have the power-equivilent of several Sethras. Seems entirely speculative to me. Worse, it seems like an unreasonable comparison. Want to float a castle? One pre-New Orb sorcerer could do it for you, and then he'd go about his normal business. Or you could get a small army of witches working in shifts in perpetuity at the edge of exhaustion. Assuming some god doesn't shut the spigot somehow. Want to do something like express your will and desires on the universe, without much knowing how it's supposed to happen? Try witchcraft. Maybe sorcery could do it better, maybe not. Want to face down an army of Easterners? One New Orb sorcerer can do that, I think - the SiG, for example. Can an small army of witches manage that? Apparently not. Off on some random planet or phase of reality? Not so much with the sorcery. Also note the discussion should probably include the question of magical implements. And what the Empress can do with the Orb directly. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 25 09:19:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:19:29 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? > > Also note the discussion should probably include the question of magical > implements. And what the Empress can do with the Orb directly. And that is a good question. Adron implied that the Orb is capable of all kinds of nastiness, but the Empress failed to use it against her enemies on several occasions. Jeff -would have no problems laying waste to his enemies with a magical implement. Except that he doesn't have one. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 25 09:28:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:28:31 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/25/06 09:04 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? >On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> But its the combined cumulative power of the witches that's superior. Even >> Sethra Lavode can only channel so much power. But with large covens of >> witches, you could have the power-equivilent of several Sethras. > >Seems entirely speculative to me. Entirely. No question about it. >Worse, it seems like an unreasonable comparison. Yes, it's an apples and oranges type of comparison in many ways, and yet, there are some things that even apples and oranges have in common... (They're both fruit, they both provide nutrition, etc.) The comparison is meant to look at two things: How *much* can one do with Sorcery as compared to witchcraft? and What *types* of things can be done with either which category are more useful? This last question is highly subjective, and I don't think it can be answered definitively. >Want to float a castle? One pre-New Orb sorcerer could do it for you, >and then he'd go about his normal business. Or you could get a small >army of witches working in shifts in perpetuity at the edge of exhaustion. >Assuming some god doesn't shut the spigot somehow. One powerful, highly trained pre-Orb sorcerer could do it for you. Or Tazendra could do it for you Post-New-Orb, but she's also a highly trained Wizard, and a Lavode. And shutting off the spigot was a bigger problem for sorcery-supported floating castles (see the Interregnum) than it has proven to be for Castle Black. >Want to do something like express your will and desires on the universe, >without much knowing how it's supposed to happen? Try witchcraft. Maybe >sorcery could do it better, maybe not. > >Want to face down an army of Easterners? One New Orb sorcerer can do >that, I think - the SiG, for example. Can an small army of witches >manage that? Apparently not. Even the SiG didn't win the battle of Adrilankha by herself, even after the Orb's power was restored. And remember the old line about knives and wizards, of course. (Which we see to be a problem with her later, during the events of "Yendi") >Off on some random planet or phase of reality? Not so much with the >sorcery. >Also note the discussion should probably include the question of magical >implements. And what the Empress can do with the Orb directly. Does witchcraft have "implements"? I suppose it's been seen to make charms and wards, and such, and crystals seem to have some special significance. But in terms of raw power-wielding devices, that seems to be more of a sorcery thing. The only equivilent I can think of in witchcraft is the familiar. (And I doubt Loiosh would respond well to being called an "implement".) Majikjon From berni12 at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 13:55:09 2006 From: berni12 at comcast.net (berni12 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:55:09 +0000 Subject: Steve's old web log.. Message-ID: <012520062155.8210.43D7F3BD0008E29D000020122200750330CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> Heh... Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Davdi Silverrock > On 1/24/06, berni12 at comcast.net wrote: > > My appologies for this off topic post... > > > > In the old web log I remember Stave posting a blog that discussed > > how happy he was with some on-line poker web site he ws using. > > The only bit in his log that looks even vaguely like being "happy" > with an online poker reference is this, posted Tue Jun 15th, 2004 8:36 > AM: > > "I've also been playing online poker some, at UltimateBet, > and doing pretty well. " > > UltimateBet is indeed an online poker site, I see, but I feel no > personal inclination to examine it more closely. Caveat Aleator. > > > Much better, in terms of Steve Brust writing about poker, is this: > > (posted Sat Jun 8th, 2002 12:06 AM) > > [cite] > > Well, I now have most of the outline for my new poker book: > > Chapter 1. How to slowplay until you're beat and then check > raise. > Chapter 2. Drawing dead and getting there. > Chapter 3. How to bluff the nuts into the guy who has them. > Chapter 4. How to prevent bad beats by always going in with > the worst hand. > Chapter 5. How to put your opponent on a hand you can beat > so you can call. > Chapter 6. Chasing with overcards and other loss leaders. > Chapter 7: Bad call justifications: > A) I was in the blind, so I was already half in. > B) They were suited > C) My good hands are getting beat, so I have to play this > stuff. > D) In a game like this, you can't win playing just the > good cards. > > Appendix: Lecturing your opponents on how you would have won > if they'd played right. > > [/cite] > _______________________________________________ > Dragaera mailing list > Dragaera at dragaera.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060125/9f3e361c/attachment.html From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 25 14:23:50 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:23:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <012520062155.8210.43D7F3BD0008E29D000020122200750330CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> berni12 at comcast.net writes: Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. As long as the subtitle is "But They Rarely Do". rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 14:28:23 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:28:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > berni12 at comcast.net writes: > Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. > > As long as the subtitle is "But They Rarely Do". Subsubtitled, "But Why Not You?" and, "Being Poor's a Sin". From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 25 15:59:55 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:59:55 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... Message-ID: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female Issolas (Issoli?:). Anyone? Do I have to hunt through every Dragaera book I have? (Not that that's a *bad* thing, mind.) Cheers! Chris From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 16:06:39 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? > Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female > Issolas (Issoli?:). Did you look at the early chapter of _TPG_ where the Musketeers take a ride? Also there might be a clue in Vlad's chat with the Jhereg Imperial contact, who is as best I recall male and Issolesque, and might have a sartorial gesture in the direction of that house. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 25 16:08:45 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:08:45 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> >Subject >Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? > > Electricity or gasoline, who wins? Ships or trains, who wins? Horses or cows, who wins? Hammers or saws, who wins? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 16:10:39 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? > Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female > Issolas (Issoli?:). Also see the medium-late chapter of _O_ where Vlad bribes a male minstrel, iirc. Though now that I think of it, V's not nearly as clothes-conscious as Paarfi, or perhaps just not as articulate. And of course one would imagine fashions change quickly, outside of practical or conservative houses. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 25 16:12:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:12:21 -0700 Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43D813E5.8060001@brazee.net> rone wrote: >berni12 at comcast.net writes: > Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. > >As long as the subtitle is "But They Rarely Do". > >rone > > There's a Dortmunder story where he has to lose his winnings in a poker game that's pretty funny. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 16:19:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:19:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <43D813E5.8060001@brazee.net> References: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> <43D813E5.8060001@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > There's a Dortmunder story where he has to lose his winnings in a poker > game that's pretty funny. Another (?) vote for the Dortmunder series by Westlake. They're comic, world-weary crime novels, for the most part of great lightness and craft and cleverness. Try e.g. _Bank Shot_. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 17:03:20 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arturo Pérez-Reverte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: from http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/books/26masl.html The furtive figure slips quietly into the darkened house, dressed in mufti rather than in his usual swirling cape. He is armed lightly, with only oiled flintlock, sword and dagger. As he slips toward the bed of his sleeping prey, his aquiline profile and luxuriant mustache are visible by the shadowy light of an oil lamp. Holding a knife to the chin of his latest conquest, he asks: "Do you know who I am?" You bet we do. He is Capt. Diego Alatriste y Tenorio, the brooding, charismatic hero of Arturo P?rez-Reverte's wildly successful Spanish swashbuckling novels. He is profoundly cynical yet quietly principled, weary of battle yet ready to duel if he must. He is a man of few words but many melancholy gazes into the void. He has an iguana, his familiar, on one shoulder. See also, http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/14015 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/2161 etc From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jan 25 18:08:25 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:08:25 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? Message-ID: <3111F340.216DEF61.00048EA6@aol.com> Howard Brazee writes: >Electricity or gasoline, who wins? > >Ships or trains, who wins? > >Horses or cows, who wins? > >Hammers or saws, who wins? from Emma Bull's "Silver or Gold": : "You are a witch," said the King of Stones, gently mocking. "You : read symbols and make them, and craft them into nets to catch truth : in. This is the meat of your training, to read the true nature of : a thing. Here are symbols -- choose between. Pick the truer. : Pick the better." : He pressed forward first one hand, then the other. "Silver, or : gold? Left or right? Night or day, moon" -- she heard him mock : her again -- "or sun, water or fire, waning or waxing, female or : male. Have I forgotten any?" -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 22:42:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:42:37 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > > >>Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? >>Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female >>Issolas (Issoli?:). >> >> > >Also see the medium-late chapter of _O_ where Vlad bribes a male minstrel, >iirc. Though now that I think of it, V's not nearly as clothes-conscious >as Paarfi, or perhaps just not as articulate. > > That minstrel was not an Issola. (Perhaps you are thinking of Sara, the minstrel from /Athyra/?) In response to the initial querry, the only appearances of male Issola that I recall is the Issola who became Lord Brudik for Zerika IV during the events of Sethra Lavode. Allistar is *dressed* as an Issola (in disguise) at the beginning of The Phoenix Guard. (This can be found on page 18 of the paperback edition). Unfortunately, the description given of his attire is rather sparse on detail, other than the mention of an issola-shaped ring, and the fact that the garments were, of course, green and white. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 22:51:59 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:51:59 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> References: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43D8718F.6040502@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > >> Subject >> Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? >> >> > > Electricity or gasoline, who wins? > Depends. How expensive is the gasoline? How advanced are your electric engines? > Ships or trains, who wins? Depends. Are you fighting your battles on land or at sea? > > Horses or cows, who wins? Depends. Are you in the middle of a war, or in the middle of a famine? > Hammers or saws, who wins? Saws. Much more useful all around, provided there is timber. And if there isn't timber, the hammer wouldn't do you much good either. The point is not so much to answer which form of magic is "better", but simply which is more practical, and under what conditions one form might outperform the other. Majikjon Of course, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a.... ...kneecap. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:01:51 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:01:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > > > > > >>Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? > >>Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female > >>Issolas (Issoli?:). > >Also see the medium-late chapter of _O_ where Vlad bribes a male minstrel, > >iirc. Though now that I think of it, V's not nearly as clothes-conscious > >as Paarfi, or perhaps just not as articulate. > > > > > That minstrel was not an Issola. As I see from _O_, pg 195, he's a Teckla. However, that's not necessarily relevant to Chris's question. Entirely relevant is the complete lack of description of his attire. Another similar possibility is _TPG_, pg 195 (amusingly): "Beed'n, the Cavalier minstrel of the early Sixteenth Cycle, easily recognized by the peacock feathers he wore trailing down from his beret..." From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:03:41 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: <43D8718F.6040502@comcast.net> References: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> <43D8718F.6040502@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > The point is not so much to answer which form of magic is "better", but > simply which is more practical, and under what conditions one form might > outperform the other. A point better served by a different subject line. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:09:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:09:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191442j4b5865f3ye281050931da41fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601191442j4b5865f3ye281050931da41fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/19/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > What this means about Morrolan's true character, or Khaavren's, or Pel's, > > is quite interesting, I suspect. > > Morrolan, for one, is perfectly willing to tolerate rumors about his > dispatching entire villages of hapless Easterners on a whim. W/rt > Khaavren and Pel, I don't know if you're insinuating that they have > similar attitudes, or that the portrayals are accurate enough that > they can't object. Or perhaps you're merely noting it as "interesting" > without passing judgment yet? I haven't pursued this line myself, in part because I'm not sure SKZB really cares to have the Paarfiad and Vladiad be consistent. But one could ask the question, does Pel not care to see his old plots and true character made public? Or is he unable to prevent Paarfi from exposing him? Or does everything Paarfi says cast him in a useful light - e.g., the actual Pel is much cleverer and manipulative than the Paarfian Pel? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:14:11 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > >Time travel weirds history. > > > > > > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? > > Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and > future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our > present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a > given. Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being conveyed back. And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence going on (great, I'm going to have to relive the 2000 election) and the Texts are being projected forward... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:24:58 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:24:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): > > > > I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. > > > > It occurrs to me that this is the explanation that is most likely to > propagate. After all, which is more likely - that Aliera e'Kieron; [...] > has been messing about with amorphia -- or that some random Easterner > has spontaneously gained the ability to mess about with amorphia? One might ask why Aliera needed to resort to it. Also I think this counter-explanation would lead those who know the truth to insist more strongly on what they saw. Also an improbable element is often said to make stories seem more, not less plausible. Finally, if as I claimed earlier an amorphia-wielding Easterner is a Dragaeran's worst nightmare, that would add traction to the truth. > Anyone who hears about the incident is going to focus on the presence > of Aliera, and no doubt say "Oy. /Her/, again. Well, at least she > didn't destroy Adrilankha." I can well imagine drunks at Castle Black mocking A for her lack of self-control. I'm not sure but I suspect that she would have trouble responding as if she had been irresponsible in that fashion. > If Vlad gets mentioned at all, it might be as "I wonder what was so > special about him that she thought it was worth risking the creation > of a new Sea of Chaos?" And the witnesses, or conspiracy theorists, or fear-mongers, or pessimists would say, Well there you go, more reason to accept my story. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 23:39:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:39:02 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > In response to the initial querry, the only appearances of male Issola > that I recall is the Issola who became Lord Brudik for Zerika IV during > the events of Sethra Lavode. > Why does everyone forget poor Hub? Not that it makes much difference, since his clothing isn't described either. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 02:49:12 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:49:12 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> Message-ID: > > Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, > it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the > genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. That's > why I think that if Kieron wasn't lab-bred, or at least second > generation, it kinda throws a spanner into the idea that the revolt of > the servants of the Jenoine was because they succeeded in getting one > raw amorphia producing Dragaeran. Dragaeran crossbreeds exist, so > what's stopping a bit of hanky-panky between House members, and thus > more lines that have the ability? > > OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly > still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that > can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers > - anyone know of any textevd?) Shrug - I think I still like being > Watsonian, and assuming that the little throwaway comment about blondes > being unheard of in the House of the Dragon except in the e'Kieron line > suggests that there is something hiding in the background of Kieron that > isn't pure Dragon. Easterner or Phoenix then becomes a possibility. The other lines of Dragon don't have it, possibly because the genes needed to make it work are so familiar with e'Kierons that once you have them you are an e'Kieron. However, this is funky with stuff like Baritt and Lanya. Perhaps since they're basing their lineage off Lanya, and certain genes of his/hers, then some may have it and some may not. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 06:26:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:26:48 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Philip Hart wrote: > >Another similar possibility is _TPG_, pg 195 (amusingly): > >"Beed'n, the Cavalier minstrel of the early Sixteenth Cycle, easily >recognized by the peacock feathers he wore trailing down from his >beret..." I always thought Beed'n was more likely to be a Dragon, given that he wrote marching music... Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 06:33:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:33:58 -0800 Subject: Pel's Fate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 1/19/06, Philip Hart wrote: > >I haven't pursued this line myself, in part because I'm not sure SKZB >really cares to have the Paarfiad and Vladiad be consistent. But one >could ask the question, does Pel not care to see his old plots and true >character made public? Or is he unable to prevent Paarfi from exposing >him? Or does everything Paarfi says cast him in a useful light - e.g., >the actual Pel is much cleverer and manipulative than the Paarfian Pel? Or is it possibly for the entirely practical reason that he is dead, and therefore not able to contest the account if he'd wanted to? The fates of most of the characters in the Paarfi books are not known, save for the ones who we know are dead, and the ones who Paarfi directly states are still alive at the time of his writing. (This includes Khaavren, Piro and Ibronka.) Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Jan 26 07:17:57 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:17:57 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:44:33 PST." Message-ID: <200601261517.k0QFHvGE021926@vice-grips.mit.edu> > Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most > instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio > is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep > up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. > Radio has some real advantages over sorcery. Radio allows for conversation between an entire group of people at once, instead of one-to-one at a time. Radio also doesn't require that you know the person that you're talking to. Using a radio doesn't require that you stop everything else you're doing and concentrate on the conversation (how much psionic conversation requires this may depend on the skill of the user). From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 07:19:00 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:19:00 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601260719s291ba82alc9045a73fe28ddb9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/26/06, Philip Hart wrote: > I can well imagine drunks at Castle Black mocking A for her lack of > self-control. I'm not sure but I suspect that she would have trouble > responding as if she had been irresponsible in that fashion. Given that Aliera's first reflex w/rt obstacles (including Jenoine) sometimes seems to be, "Kill it," I'm not sure you could tell the difference between Aliera-being-mocked-unfairly-for-an-incident-that-never-happened and Aliera-being-mocked-for-an-embarrassing-but-true-incident, since both are likely to involve a fair amount of blood and, when all is said and done, no witnesses to the purported incident. ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 07:22:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:22:05 -0700 Subject: Pel's Fate? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601260722t1d71713cl1d4c8860fd55291f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/26/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Or is it possibly for the entirely practical reason that he is dead, and > therefore not able to contest the account if he'd wanted to? > > The fates of most of the characters in the Paarfi books are not known, > save for the ones who we know are dead, and the ones who Paarfi directly > states are still alive at the time of his writing. (This includes > Khaavren, Piro and Ibronka.) What's more, if Pel might be dead, hey! it might as well be Vlad who killed him. Or maybe Vlad Norathar, depending on timeline. ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 07:24:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:24:04 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/25/06 11:14 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and >> future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our >> present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a >> given. > >Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being >conveyed back. And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence >going on (great, I'm going to have to relive the 2000 election) and >the Texts are being projected forward... Hmm... That's an intriguing possibility. I think I prefer it to the idea of time travel (or time-crossing communication of some sort.) Of course, it does smack of Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series a little too much for my taste. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 07:26:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:26:34 -0800 Subject: Pel's Fate? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601260722t1d71713cl1d4c8860fd55291f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/06 07:22 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: Pel's Fate? >What's more, if Pel might be dead, hey! it might as well be Vlad who >killed him. Or maybe Vlad Norathar, depending on timeline. My money's on Zungaron. ;-) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 07:28:10 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:28:10 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601260728k7d7743c1x5a65b1481a10e3ee@mail.gmail.com> On 1/26/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I think I prefer it to the idea of time travel (or time-crossing > communication of some sort.) > > Of course, it does smack of Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series a > little too much for my taste. If it makes you feel better: aside from the existence of Hungarian-like peasants, the only things that actually *have* to recur in both universes are Marxist writings, which is curiously appropriate. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 26 08:02:25 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:02:25 -0700 Subject: Pel's Fate? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Maximilian Wilson" Cc: ; "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Pel's Fate? > Maximilian Wilson > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/26/06 07:22 AM > > To > SKZB List > cc > > Subject > Re: Pel's Fate? > > > > > >What's more, if Pel might be dead, hey! it might as well be Vlad who > >killed him. Or maybe Vlad Norathar, depending on timeline. > > My money's on Zungaron. ;-) > > Majikjon > > Should that be a spoiler? Jeff -wants to see how exactly Zungaron sits down. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 09:13:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:13:15 -0800 Subject: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/06 08:02 AM To cc Subject Re: Pel's Fate? >Should that be a spoiler? > >Jeff >-wants to see how exactly Zungaron sits down. I didn't feel it was required, since the name Zungaron came up in /Issola/, and I didn't comment at all about any other specifics related to Zungaron. This message, OTOH, mentions that Vlad meets Zungaron in /Dzur/ (Or at least, in "Klava with Honey:A Prologue") so it earns the spoiler warning. ;-) This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Thu Jan 26 10:07:54 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:07:54 -0500 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00db01c622a3$6e1b3bd0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Majikjon writ: > This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers > for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? > > Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out >, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. There's no one true standard. There are many here, who, in addition to the Subject alert you added, would add spoiler space to the body of their message. MV Casey From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jan 26 10:15:25 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:15:25 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey Message-ID: <136E529A-6365-4448-ADAB-B9D9C68D78BF@mac.com> Does this preprint of an introduction deserve an abbreviation (i.e., KwH) pending the publication of Dzur? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 10:19:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:19:05 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? ) In-Reply-To: <00db01c622a3$6e1b3bd0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/2006 10:07 AM To cc Subject Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) >Majikjon writ: > >> This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers >> for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? >> >> Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out >>, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. > > >There's no one true standard. There are many here, who, in addition to the >Subject alert you added, would add spoiler space to the body of their >message. MV Sounds reasonable. I suppose a bigger question (for me, anyway), is how to handle the "Klava with Honey" situation on the Wikicity. I will have to take this up on the discussion pages over there. Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Thu Jan 26 10:43:04 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:43:04 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey In-Reply-To: <136E529A-6365-4448-ADAB-B9D9C68D78BF@mac.com> Message-ID: <000501c622a8$57e65200$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Kenneth Gorelick asked: > Does this preprint of an introduction deserve an > abbreviation (i.e., KwH) pending the publication of Dzur? Sounds good to me. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 10:47:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:47:03 -0800 Subject: Klava with Honey In-Reply-To: <136E529A-6365-4448-ADAB-B9D9C68D78BF@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/06 10:15 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Klava with Honey >Does this preprint of an introduction deserve an abbreviation (i.e., >KwH) pending the publication of Dzur? Whether is deserves it or not, I think it just got one. ;-) Interestingly, it's also the abbreviation for Kilowatt hours, which I've probably wasted far too many of staying up late reading /The Gypsy/ over the last few nights... Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Fri Jan 27 09:12:40 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:09:59 PST." Message-ID: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. > Maximilian Wilson > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/23/06 08:45 AM > > To > SKZB List > cc > > Subject > Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout > Kragar?) > > > > > > > >On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> > >> Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > >> e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather > than > >> their father's. > >> > > > >[blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. So how, then, can amorphia > >creation be restricted to 'Kierons? Or in other words, can *all* > e'Kierons > >create amorphia, or is it found only in a restricted subset of the line, > >none of whom happened to become e'Lanyas? > > I've often wondered that same question myself. > > Note: It's never stated that Lanya e'Kieron could create amorphia, and > since she's a dragonlord of the 4th cycle (about 40,000 years after > Kieron's time) it's possible the genetics of the e'Kieron line had become > diluted by then. > > Also note, we never see Adron create amorphia, either. Aliera does, but > she may have this ability the same way Vlad does, through the soul, rather > than through the genetics of her father. > > In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of > nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, > but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was > available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the > beginning of the Empire. > > Majikjon > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 27 09:18:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:18:54 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: Joy Jennifer Nicholson 01/27/06 09:12 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Maximilian Wilson , SKZB List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but >Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he >is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means >that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but >Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to >Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's >only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. That was my basic point. We don't know that Adron *could* create amorphia. We never see him do so, and Aliera never says he could, either. Aliera could have gotten her Amorphia creation ability the same way Vlad did, tho, since her soul is a reincarnation of Keiron's other brother. Or maybe she inherited the ability from her mother? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 27 10:02:59 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:02:59 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but >Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he >is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means >that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but >Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to >Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's >only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. > > This characteristic isn't biologically genetic. It appears to be associated with souls, so that when someone has this characteristic, his reincarnated should has it. I've always been puzzled by people who believe in reincarnation - if I can't remember my past, and if whomever has my soul in the future can't remember my present - what's the difference between that and being three different people? With this in mind, I look at characters we have met in the Halls. I haven't seen that they are multiple people - from their various life times. Has Steve mentioned what reincarnation means in his world? Speaking of Steve - when he doesn't post on his weblog for a while, does that mean he's busy working? From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jan 27 10:15:32 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:32 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <309a01c6236d$a94fbb20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but > Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he > is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means > that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but > Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to > Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's > only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. The ability to create amorphia is linked to the soul, not to the genome. In fact, thinking about it just now, I've realized that we don't have any evidence that the ability is passed through the genome at all. The only examples that we have are people who are reincarnated early-generation souls. Perhaps, when Aliera talks about "e'Kieron", she isn't explicitly discussing genome and heredity. She could be simply saying that the ability was owned by the group of Dragaerans who eventually called themselves "e'Kieron" and so founded the lineage. It may well be that only those original souls are able to do the "amorphia from nowhere" trick. It's even possible that those souls only reincarnate into their biological descendants but that's pure speculation designed to justify a way for the ability to be attached to the soul and still be attached to the genome as well. Vlad is a clear aberration in this respect, so it's not something that is set in stone, assuming that it's normally true. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 27 10:29:57 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Joy Jennifer Nicholson > > >According to Morrolan in Talsos, he is the eldest son of Aliera's > >father's youngest sister. So that means that Adron could create > >amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but Adron's sister either didn't > >have the trait or didn't pass it on to Morrolan. That makes it a > >recessive trait? Not that I see. Adron has one copy, his sister doesn't; or she does but her child doesn't. Also note that Verra has something in mind here, judging from _TEoDM_. > That was my basic point. We don't know that Adron *could* create amorphia. > We never see him do so, and Aliera never says he could, either. Note that _Issola_ shows that Adron has a special relationship with amorphia. Readers of Michael Swanwick's great novel _The Iron Dragon's Daughter_ will recall his portrait of powerful nobles related to chaos. Perhaps something of the sort is going on - perhaps the E'Kierons were recognized by amorphia - that is, it came to know their genes and souls, or they have a family connection. As best I recall Aliera describes becoming an Elder Sorcerer as getting to know chaos and getting it to know the sorcerer. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 11:11:36 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:11:36 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> References: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601271111q5395374du11b136e3567cb6bd@mail.gmail.com> On 1/27/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I've always been puzzled by people who believe in reincarnation - if I > can't remember my past, and if whomever has my soul in the future can't > remember my present - what's the difference between that and being three > different people? With this in mind, I look at characters we have met > in the Halls. I haven't seen that they are multiple people - from > their various life times. Has Steve mentioned what reincarnation > means in his world? I have to agree with you about reincarnation--in my mind, it must be less a belief per se about a factual occurrence than a perspective about what constitutes identity. And of course, if you allow your sense of "me" to encompass other beings, who's to say that they can't exist concurrently? If it tickles your aesthetic fancy to believe that all humans are serial reincarnations of the only human who ever lived (or lives), who am I to gainsay you? It appears to be indistinguishable in practical terms from no belief in reincarnation at all, although the aesthetics might inspire you to be a little kinder to other people (or just the opposite). Fortunately, Vlad's experience appears to be a little less mystical. At minimum, reincarnation brings certain "genes" with it, apparently personality traits (at least Sethra thinks so about Vlad/Dolivar), and perhaps latent memories (Sethra offers to re-awaken Vlad's past memories, not implant them). "Reincarnation" in the Brustiverse has an objective reality. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 11:12:46 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:12:46 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601271112s3aa639d8v8136421bf661449d@mail.gmail.com> On 1/27/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Not that I see. Adron has one copy, his sister doesn't; or she does but > her child doesn't. Also note that Verra has something in mind here, > judging from _TEoDM_. Reminder, please? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 27 11:28:48 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:28:48 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601271111q5395374du11b136e3567cb6bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0601271111q5395374du11b136e3567cb6bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43DA7470.20004@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >Fortunately, Vlad's experience appears to be a little less mystical. >At minimum, reincarnation brings certain "genes" with it, apparently >personality traits (at least Sethra thinks so about Vlad/Dolivar), and >perhaps latent memories (Sethra offers to re-awaken Vlad's past >memories, not implant them). "Reincarnation" in the Brustiverse has an >objective reality. > > It would be interesting to see Dolivar interacting with Sethra. So much of what we recognize as Vlad seems to be based upon his environment. I'd like to see him through the eyes of someone who remembers Dolivar. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 27 12:12:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601271112s3aa639d8v8136421bf661449d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601271112s3aa639d8v8136421bf661449d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: _The Lord of Castle Black_ spoiler warning added and removed because it's been out in ppb a long time: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/27/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > Not that I see. Adron has one copy, his sister doesn't; or she does but > > her child doesn't. Also note that Verra has something in mind here, > > judging from _TEoDM_. > > Reminder, please? My bad - see pg 379 of _TLoCB_, where V says that M will turn to Elder Sorcery, is questioned about his problematic "bloodlines", and replies, "we shall see". From casey at the-bat.net Fri Jan 27 14:33:09 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:33:09 -0500 Subject: Steve's weblog In-Reply-To: <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> Message-ID: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Howard Brazee asked: > Speaking of Steve - when he doesn't post on his weblog for a > while, does that mean he's busy working? Apparently not necessarily. http://skzbrust.livejournal.com/7347.html Casey From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 27 14:36:36 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:36:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's weblog In-Reply-To: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Casey Rousseau wrote: > http://skzbrust.livejournal.com/7347.html "I've been going over the copyedit of Dzur for the last couple of days. Terry McGarry, the copyeditor, is amazing. There are no stupid comments." Maybe not entirely complementary to his previous copyeditors. From carpovita at earthlink.net Sun Jan 29 13:20:08 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:20:08 -0700 Subject: Opus Arts Festival Update In-Reply-To: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <001101c62519$c9be9b80$0b00a8c0@Carpovita> Hi everybody! We here at Opus hope that you are all enjoying a happy new year - meanwhile we are gearing up for Opus 2006. First off. A few announcements. --PRE-REGISTRATION DISCOUNT-- THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE FOR THE SPECIAL EARLY BIRD PRE-REGISTRATION RATE OF $29.00! If you have not already taken advantage of the $29 pre-registration rate you need to do so soon. The Opus Pre Registration season ends as of January 31st. So if you are the kind of person that likes to save money, you need to pre-reg now. --OPUS EVENTS- * THE WORLD'S FIRST ELFWOOD MEMBER GATHER Elfwood is the world's largest home to SciFi/Fantasy art and fiction... in the just last year Elfwood has registered over 700,000 hits. Their mission - to provide a place for amateur artists from all over the world to share, teach, and inspire a new generation of dreams." This May they will be celebrating their 10th anniversary - with us at Opus. In honor of their attendance we will be hosting a series of on site art classes, displays, demos, reviews, contests and more. * DRAGAERA FAN SUMMIT If you have not familiarized yourself with Brust's hero assassin witch, Vlad Taltos, you've been missing out. Go out and grab a copy of Jhereg and soon you'll be making regular stops at the bookstore to collect the other dozen books in the series. Then you'll be more than prepared for the Live Action Dragaera World Role playing game, the Assassin game, Dragaera the late night meets and costume contests that will be associated with this event at Opusfest 2006. * AVISTRUM ACADEMY OF SORCERY YEAR TWO This year's school for budding witches and wizards will blow last year's out of the lake. Our ingenious wizarding staff has developed an original American wizarding & witchcraft world for you to come and get lost in. The academy will be housed in the hotel's wonderful Evergreen room-a beautiful multi-sectioned room with high ceiling rafters and wrought iron entry gates--for the entirety of the weekend. * THE 2nd ANNUAL OPUS FREESTYLE SWORD COMPETITION Face other hopefuls in the Opus shanai pit as you and they vie for the cash purse and the glory of knowing that you are the BEST with a blade in Denver (or at least Opus) for the year of 2005. (No lightsabers please) -- OPUS 2006 GUEST LIST -- * ARTISTS - L.A. Williams, Peri Charlifu, Clay Mingues, Jim Humble, Carol Fritz, Michael Georges, Lannie Pihajlic, Tim Kuzniar * WRITERS - Steven Brust, Barb & JC Hendee, Wynette Hoffman, David Summers * BANDS - Voltaire, Caustic Soul, erotic, Born in Winter, Deviant, Raks Benazir, The Brobdingnagian Bards, Pandora Celtica, * NEW HOST HOTEL We have a new host hotel - the Hyatt Tech Center. For Opus in 2006, the Hyatt is offering rooms for $62 a night for two people. You can get your reservations on-line or call their reservations line and tell them you are coming for the Opus Arts Festival. There are a limited number of rooms at this great rate so we suggest you reserve your rooms as soon as possible - as of this date over half of our room block has been reserved. Here's the link to the hotel so you can see all the great things they have waiting for you as well as their contact info. Remote Advertising We happily accept any and all help when it comes to spreading the word about Opus. If you or someone you know would be interested in helping us get advertising in new places let us know. To help out with Opus advertising e-mail Rion at carpovita at earthlink.net. Opus Website - If you want to know what's going on at Opus and get regular updates on special offers make sure you check out our website at www.opusfest.com. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jan 29 09:45:45 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:45:45 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > K Kuhn wrote: > > >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, > >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the > >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > > > If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based solely on how > genetic traits are passed doesn't work. Shrug - it's not like our favorite and most esteemed author's books are full of reliable narrators, is it? [1] I'm not sure you can really assume that Aliera's theory of why Vlad can create raw amorphia is necessarily right. Aliera is probably right that only the e'Kieron line of Dragaerans can do it, if only because the odds are good that other Dragon lines and Houses of the Empire have tried doing it - or at least I can't think of a reason why none of the Athyra or Hawks especially would have tried it. I've laid out my reasons why I don't think that Easterners may have tried creating raw amorphia before, and there's always the possibility that 'Taltos' as a surname is a big flaming hint. (Wonder if Sethra knows anything about Easterner history and mythology- a reason for Kiera to take an interest in a young Vlad, who might be considered rather more naive than Noish-pa?) Karen From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 29 18:05:40 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:05:40 EST Subject: Opus Arts Festival Update Message-ID: <241.60182a6.310ece74@aol.com> Hi Rion, Do you want to make an entry on http://dragaera.info/events/ ? Since the Dragaera World Summit is May 19-21, 2006, it is within the 180 days for events. Maybe the info should be put on the wiki city somewhere?? http://dragaera.wikicities.com/ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 29 19:05:23 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:05:23 EST Subject: International Brust Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <1e3.4b901bf7.310edc73@aol.com> On Mon Oct 3 10:01:12 Rion Bergquist wrote about Dragaera World Summit in May 19-21, 2006 >Said event will feature, among other things a Dragaeran feast. After much >discussion about the implementation, structure and content of this culinary >adventure Steve and I have come up with an opportunity for all of you. >Rather than Steve or the Directorship of the summit dictating what the feast >will be, we have decided to open it up to you, the fans. >So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will be taking >submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for any part of the >feast from suggestions on food courses to table linens and background music. >Once I have enough suggestions and recipes to define the feast I will open >up the options to this list for a basic democratic vote. >The only request that I make is that all aspects of the feast stay PG and >Dragaera related. I know several of you will be able to not only give me >recipes, but the references to back up the existence of your culinary >creations, and that is exactly what I'd like. So here is another idea for the Dragaeran feast: KRAGAR'S RENTED CONVENTION HALL It should look like a rented convention hall. Maybe with black and gray decorations because, Kragar is a Jhereg. Heh! Here is my text evidence that there are conventions in Dragaera. Kragar speaking to Vlad: "'Everyone?' How Many should I figure on?" "Uh, let me see...five. No, six." "Six? Should I rent a convention hall?" "Scram." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 16, page 144 Jhereg, Chapter 16, page 201 Maybe a nice sign that says Dragaera World Summit in black and gray with your T-shirt design of a Jhereg on both sides of the words. You see the Empress decided to have a Dragaera World Summit and Kragar was put in charge of renting the Jhereg party convention hall. And of course, all the other houses showed up at the Jhereg party because Kragar had Valabar's do the catering...or maybe it was actually "a man who has cleaned tables at Valabar's" (The Paths of the Dead, paperback, Chapter the Fourteenth, page 125, 126.) From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:08:24 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:08:24 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > > > > Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): > > > > > > I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. > > > > > > > It occurrs to me that this is the explanation that is most likely to > > propagate. After all, which is more likely - that Aliera e'Kieron; > [...] > > has been messing about with amorphia -- or that some random Easterner > > has spontaneously gained the ability to mess about with amorphia? > > One might ask why Aliera needed to resort to it. It is known that Jhereg sorceresses can and do use Elder Sorcery. So, maybe one of them tried something that resulted in a release of Amorphia when countered. > Also I think this > counter-explanation would lead those who know the truth to insist > more strongly on what they saw. Well, perhaps. > Also an improbable element is often > said to make stories seem more, not less plausible. Finally, if as I > claimed earlier an amorphia-wielding Easterner is a Dragaeran's worst > nightmare, that would add traction to the truth. Yet there is also the possibility that even if they allow that Vlad was responsible for the amorphia, it could be counter-argued that he had probably been using something given to him by Aliera - not necessarily that he had an inherent ability to create the stuff on his own. This especially since he wasn't much of a sorcerer anyway. How would he gain the ability to perform Elder Sorcery on his own? And it certainly would not follow that all (or many) Easterners have the same ability. Easterners have been around the Dragaeran Empire for eons and eons; even if one shows up with this alleged ability, it seems rather likely that it is a fluke (which it actually is), rather than something many Easterners have. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:19:05 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:19:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Time travel weirds history. > > > > > > > > > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? > > > > Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and > > future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our > > present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a > > given. > > Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being > conveyed back. Yet why would Marxist ideas be conveyed back however many thousands and thousands of years it is supposed to be? > And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence going on You mean, like some sort of temporal Cycle? An interesting notion; I wonder if it has been thought of before? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 13:21:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:21:32 -0800 Subject: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After reading /The Gypsy/, I was struck by the notion that The Coachman (aka, "Miska") could be responsible for bringing Steven Brust ("The Interviewer" and/or "The Translator") to and from Dragaera. Alternately, he could merely ferry the "Silver Box" or the "Marxist Documents" to Dragaera from our world. Another thought that struck me was how similarly the three "gypsy" brothers seemed in relation to residents of Fenario. ...and how similar The Fair Lady seemed (in many ways) to Verra. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:27:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:27:34 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 1/29/06, K Kuhn wrote: > I've laid out my reasons why I don't think that > Easterners may have tried creating raw amorphia before, and there's > always the possibility that 'Taltos' as a surname is a big flaming hint. I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize that it was witchcraft that he had done). Hm. Probably not, but an interesting thought. And I think it works better than the idea that any Easterner can create chaos. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:30:26 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:30:26 -0800 Subject: Arturo Pérez-Reverte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > from http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/books/26masl.html > You bet we do. He is Capt. Diego Alatriste y Tenorio, the brooding, > charismatic hero of Arturo P?rez-Reverte's wildly successful Spanish > swashbuckling novels. He is profoundly cynical yet quietly principled, > weary of battle yet ready to duel if he must. He is a man of few words but > many melancholy gazes into the void. > He has an iguana, his familiar, on one shoulder. No doubt you threw in that last line to add excitement and local color to the narrative. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:30:44 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and > > > future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our > > > present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a > > > given. > > > > Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being > > conveyed back. > > Yet why would Marxist ideas be conveyed back however many thousands > and thousands of years it is supposed to be? I assume the cache was a normal-causality occurrence - humankind takes flight, settles Dragaera, builds libraries, gets stomped by the J; then eventually a library gets found with its physics and engineering texts decayed but its ancient history of economic thought texts miraculously preserved. Then info about the find is sent against time's arrow into the past. > > > And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence going on > > You mean, like some sort of temporal Cycle? An interesting notion; I > wonder if it has been thought of before? Just referring to Nietzsche's idea of "eternal recurrence", which involves the exact repetition of all history as the universe is born, dies, and is reborn; but in this case with slight variation due to some sort of magic. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:32:10 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:32:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arturo Pérez-Reverte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > from http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/books/26masl.html > > > You bet we do. He is Capt. Diego Alatriste y Tenorio, the brooding, > > charismatic hero of Arturo P?rez-Reverte's wildly successful Spanish > > swashbuckling novels. He is profoundly cynical yet quietly principled, > > weary of battle yet ready to duel if he must. He is a man of few words but > > many melancholy gazes into the void. > > > He has an iguana, his familiar, on one shoulder. > > No doubt you threw in that last line to add excitement and local color > to the narrative. Even Paarfi nods. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:38:43 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:38:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up > until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and > desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize > that it was witchcraft that he had done). Hm. Probably not, but an > interesting thought. And I think it works better than the idea that > any Easterner can create chaos. Presumably it wouldn't be _any_ E, but those with the right genes/soul/whatever. The Empire might think there's no reason a priori to conclude that the right combo couldn't arise in some Eastern population, in which case it would be a good idea to suppress V and his relatives. Or that some E pop might find some other way of harnessing the power, e.g. witchcraft, in which case it would be a good idea to hunt down everyone V knows. So, sure, why couldn't witchcraft put one on a friendly footing with amorphia? Maybe that's the point of Morollan having training in it. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:43:47 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:43:47 -0800 Subject: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > After reading /The Gypsy/, I was struck by the notion that The Coachman > (aka, "Miska") could be responsible for bringing Steven Brust ("The > Interviewer" and/or "The Translator") to and from Dragaera. > > Alternately, he could merely ferry the "Silver Box" or the "Marxist > Documents" to Dragaera from our world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thought that struck me was how similarly the three "gypsy" > brothers seemed in relation to residents of Fenario. > > ...and how similar The Fair Lady seemed (in many ways) to Verra. > Or rather, to the Demon Goddess of /Brokedown Palace/, I think. If you ever read /The Wizard of the Pigeons/ (by Megan Lindholm, solo), you may see similarities of /The Gypsy/ to that work as well. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:44:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:44:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> [stuff arguing that there's reason to think that Vlad's >> use of amorphia in _J_ should have set off violent alarm] >> [back and forth] > Well, perhaps. Ok, I think there are plausible arguments on either side. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 13:46:27 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:46:27 -0800 Subject: Reasons for Easterner Primitivity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 01:30 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> Yet why would Marxist ideas be conveyed back however many thousands >> and thousands of years it is supposed to be? > >I assume the cache was a normal-causality occurrence - humankind takes >flight, settles Dragaera, builds libraries, gets stomped by the J; >then eventually a library gets found with its physics and engineering >texts decayed but its ancient history of economic thought texts >miraculously preserved. Then info about the find is sent against >time's arrow into the past. This touches on my original reason for bringing up High-Tech vs Sorcery... And why the Easterners we've seen all seem to be late medieval/early renaissance level of tech--and never seem to have advanced any further. Since it seems likely to me that what happened was that the Easterners had high-tech, then got smacked down. Whether this was by the gods, the Jenoine, the Empire, or "other". (Davdi just did a great speculative write-up on this line of thinking on the wikicity. http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Easterner) >> You mean, like some sort of temporal Cycle? An interesting notion; I >> wonder if it has been thought of before? > >Just referring to Nietzsche's idea of "eternal recurrence", which involves >the exact repetition of all history as the universe is born, dies, and is >reborn; but in this case with slight variation due to some sort of magic. All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again... Majikjon --Really liking the new Battlestar Galactica series. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 13:52:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:52:43 -0800 Subject: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 01:43 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") >On 1/30/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> After reading /The Gypsy/, I was struck by the notion that The Coachman >> (aka, "Miska") could be responsible for bringing Steven Brust ("The >> Interviewer" and/or "The Translator") to and from Dragaera. >> >> Alternately, he could merely ferry the "Silver Box" or the "Marxist >> Documents" to Dragaera from our world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Another thought that struck me was how similarly the three "gypsy" >> brothers seemed in relation to residents of Fenario. >> >> ...and how similar The Fair Lady seemed (in many ways) to Verra. > > >Or rather, to the Demon Goddess of /Brokedown Palace/, I think. > >If you ever read /The Wizard of the Pigeons/ (by Megan Lindholm, >solo), you may see similarities of /The Gypsy/ to that work as well. Thanks for the recommendation. I will have to check that out soon, seeing as I've only got two more of Steve's books left to read (Sun/Moon/Stars, and Freedom & Neccessity). Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 14:16:53 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:16:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reasons for Easterner Primitivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > And why the Easterners we've seen all seem to be late medieval/early > renaissance level of tech--and never seem to have advanced any further. > > Since it seems likely to me that what happened was that the Easterners had > high-tech, then got smacked down. Whether this was by the gods, the > Jenoine, the Empire, or "other". (Davdi just did a great speculative > write-up on this line of thinking on the wikicity. > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Easterner) There was a long long discussion of this on the list, considering everything from the Cycle to the gods to recurrent Imperial intervention to the effect of demonstrable magic on would-be physicists and engineers. (Note the similar issue for the Islands and for the Empire itself). None of these explanations (except for the Cycle) was entirely satisfactory to me, given the timespan, but another (I think) discussed at the time can't be argued with: SKZB likes it that way so deal. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 30 14:41:09 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:41:09 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up > until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and > desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize > that it was witchcraft that he had done). Two arguments against: 1) Witchcraft doesn't work like that. Every witchcraft spell we've witnessed was one that took a great deal of preparation and had a substantial buildup to a climax wherein the spell was released and imposed its effects on the world. "Instant on" is a hallmark of sorcery. Besides, it seems highly unlikely that Vlad could do anything with Witchcraft and not realize how he was accomplishing it. 2) Dragaerans were derived from Easterners (Terrans) and they are able to learn and perform witchcraft just as Easterners can. If every Easterner can do it then by extension every Dragaeran can do it and Aliera is wrong about it being specific to the e'Kieron line. With his background, Morollan likely takes witchcraft more seriously than the average Dragearan but he's not the first Dragaeran to study it. If it could produce anything like Vlad's ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran sorcerous society a reason to give it serious study instead of look down on it for its limitations versus the mechanical style of Orb-based sorcery. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 14:42:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:42:52 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 02:41 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) >> I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up >> until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and >> desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize >> that it was witchcraft that he had done). > >Two arguments against: > >1) Witchcraft doesn't work like that. Every witchcraft spell we've witnessed >was one that took a great deal of preparation and had a substantial buildup >to a climax wherein the spell was released and imposed its effects on the >world. "Instant on" is a hallmark of sorcery. Besides, it seems highly >unlikely that Vlad could do anything with Witchcraft and not realize how he >was accomplishing it. > >2) Dragaerans were derived from Easterners (Terrans) and they are able to >learn and perform witchcraft just as Easterners can. If every Easterner can >do it then by extension every Dragaeran can do it and Aliera is wrong about >it being specific to the e'Kieron line. With his background, Morollan likely >takes witchcraft more seriously than the average Dragearan but he's not the >first Dragaeran to study it. If it could produce anything like Vlad's >ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran >sorcerous society a reason to give it serious study instead of look down on >it for its limitations versus the mechanical style of Orb-based sorcery. 3) If witchcraft were capable of creating amorphia, it would have probably been banned many cycles ago, as chaos stones were. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 15:16:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:16:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up > > until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and > > desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize > > that it was witchcraft that he had done). > > Two arguments against: > > 1) Witchcraft doesn't work like that. Every witchcraft spell we've witnessed > was one that took a great deal of preparation and had a substantial buildup > to a climax wherein the spell was released and imposed its effects on the > world. "Instant on" is a hallmark of sorcery. Besides, it seems highly > unlikely that Vlad could do anything with Witchcraft and not realize how he > was accomplishing it. Vlad ought perhaps to be aware of having used witchcraft, but he certainly has no sense of how a new spell works, judging from _Taltos_ and _J_. And the circumstances weren't conducive to self-awareness and reflection. In _J_ V surely went the normal gene/soul route - but for all we know, that route might be a shortcut to the relevant witchcraftery. > 2) Dragaerans were derived from Easterners (Terrans) and they are able to > learn and perform witchcraft just as Easterners can. If every Easterner can > do it then by extension every Dragaeran can do it and Aliera is wrong about > it being specific to the e'Kieron line. Aliera wouldn't know that the e'K line has a witchcraft shortcut. Maybe the shortcut is 100% necessary, but maybe only 95%, or maybe not at all, given the right knowledge. > With his background, Morollan likely > takes witchcraft more seriously than the average Dragearan but he's not the > first Dragaeran to study it. Sethra hasn't. Noish-pa is v. surprised to meet a Dragaeran witch. > If it could produce anything like Vlad's > ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran > sorcerous society a reason to silently suppress it lest the Easterners hear about it. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Mon Jan 30 15:27:04 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:27:04 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the talk about the e'Kieron line being the only line to be able to create amorphia does have one backing i haven't heard anyone bring up, but it is sort of flimsy. in Yendi it was mentioned that Norathar was found to be the product of 2 dragons, with e'Lanya dominant. the fact that e'Lanya is dominant should mean something, shouldn't it? Morrolan is a part of the e'Kieron line, but he's not e'Kieron dominant, so he wouldn't be able to create raw amorphia. thats my take on it, but I haven't brought it up because of one flaw: how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 30 15:49:10 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:49:10 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > If it could produce anything like Vlad's > > ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it > would give Dragaeran > > sorcerous society a reason > > to silently suppress it lest the Easterners hear about it. If it was witchcraft based then they wouldn't need to supress it from the Easterners. Your average Athyra sorceror/wizard would be the one you'd have to worry about. Witchraft isn't exclusive to Easterners by nature, only by culture. The Empire has its own brand of magic that is clearly (in their minds) superior. Studying Witchcraft is rather like a doctor in the States studyng Hungarian folk medicine. As illustrated in Tekla, some people don't believe in it at all, and those (like our protagonists and their associates) who have experienced it first hand are still convinced that sorcery is superior. Anything an Eastern Witch can do is something that a Dragaeran sorceror can do, given the proper training. If they don't bother it's because they see no value in it. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 16:13:47 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:13:47 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> On 1/30/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > Anything an Eastern Witch can do is something that a Dragaeran sorceror can > do, given the proper training. I think this is an overstatement. I recall from /Taltos/ that sorcery was implied to be insufficient for planting thoughts in others' minds. Also recall Vlad's sensory extension in /Orca/, which is nothing like what we've ever seen sorcerors perform. Although, perhaps you are merely implying that the Dragaeran sorcerer would do it by taking up witchcraft? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 16:20:34 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:20:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > If it could produce anything like Vlad's ability then it ought to be > > > well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran sorcerous society a > > > reason > > > > to silently suppress it lest the Easterners hear about it. > > If it was witchcraft based then they wouldn't need to supress it from the > Easterners. Your average Athyra sorceror/wizard would be the one you'd have > to worry about. I don't follow you at all. The Athyra have access to ES via the purple stones. The Easterners are an oppressed group with essentially no other access to firepower at that level. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 16:58:14 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:58:14 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/30/06, S. Hall wrote: > the talk about the e'Kieron line being the only line to be able to create > amorphia does have one backing i haven't heard anyone bring up, but it is > sort of flimsy. > > in Yendi it was mentioned that Norathar was found to be the product of 2 > dragons, with e'Lanya dominant. the fact that e'Lanya is dominant should > mean something, shouldn't it? Morrolan is a part of the e'Kieron line, but > he's not e'Kieron dominant, so he wouldn't be able to create raw amorphia. > thats my take on it, but I haven't brought it up because of one flaw: > > how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then > what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong > "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ > Well, that would explain *exactly* why genescanning is used among Dragons. See also the quote I posted about the Dragon who "thought" that he took more after his e'Terics father than his e'Drien mother. If he was uncertain, he could just have himself genescanned. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 17:01:13 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:01:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> References: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/30/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Anything an Eastern Witch can do is something that a Dragaeran sorceror can > > do, given the proper training. > > I think this is an overstatement. I recall from /Taltos/ that sorcery > was implied to be insufficient for planting thoughts in others' minds. > Also recall Vlad's sensory extension in /Orca/, which is nothing like > what we've ever seen sorcerors perform. Also, witchcraft works in locations that sorcery doesn't, including the Shore of the Cycle (which I would assume is part of the Halls of Judgement), and the Jenoine world. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Jan 30 19:52:09 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:52:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Aliera could have gotten her Amorphia creation ability the same way Vlad > did, tho, since her soul is a reincarnation of Keiron's other brother. > Or maybe she inherited the ability from her mother? As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The bloodline, according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. And that, I think, is enough to explain why Morrolan (as far as we've seen) doesn't have it. He's interested in Elder Sorcery, sure, but he's been working on (obsessed with!) other things as well. Mark A. Mandel http://www.cracksandshards.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jan 30 20:09:15 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:09:15 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS > with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The bloodline, according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. > On the other hand, for a Dragaeran, spending 50-100 years learning something is hardly time to scratch the surface. Casey From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 01:49:33 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:49:33 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is probably tied to certain genes that not only determine who you are descended from but possibly also who can create amorphia (e'Kieron). On 1/30/06, S. Hall wrote: > > the talk about the e'Kieron line being the only line to be able to create > amorphia does have one backing i haven't heard anyone bring up, but it is > sort of flimsy. > > in Yendi it was mentioned that Norathar was found to be the product of 2 > dragons, with e'Lanya dominant. the fact that e'Lanya is dominant should > mean something, shouldn't it? Morrolan is a part of the e'Kieron line, but > he's not e'Kieron dominant, so he wouldn't be able to create raw amorphia. > thats my take on it, but I haven't brought it up because of one flaw: > > how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then > what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong > "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 06:17:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:17:17 -0800 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 04:58 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/30/06, S. Hall wrote: >> how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then >> what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong >> "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ >> > >Well, that would explain *exactly* why genescanning is used among Dragons. > >See also the quote I posted about the Dragon who "thought" that he >took more after his e'Terics father than his e'Drien mother. If he >was uncertain, he could just have himself genescanned. Do we have any clues as to when performing genescans became common? Certainly they were already in use during Tortaalik's reign, since one was used on Norathar at that time. But is this one of those things that stretches back into antiquity, or is genescanning a relatively recent innovation? (like within the last cycle or two?) And if it is comparitively recent, how did the Dragon lineages work before it was developed? Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 06:26:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:26:16 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" 01/30/06 07:52 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com, Dragaera list cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >--- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Aliera could have gotten her Amorphia creation ability the same way Vlad >> did, tho, since her soul is a reincarnation of Keiron's other brother. >> Or maybe she inherited the ability from her mother? > >As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS >with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 >years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The bloodline, >according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. Hmm... I wonder if Vlad being an Easterner is why he didn't seem to need any training to pull this off the first time? Granted, it was an out-of-control spell, and would have destroyed him (and many others) if Aliera hadn't been there to save the day, but just the fact that he succeeded on his first attempt seems unusual, given this explanation. Or maybe it was the fact that Dolivar used Elder Sorcery (perhaps this is why he was kicked out of the Dragon House?) and Vlad was somehow tapping into his latent memories? >And that, I think, is enough to explain why Morrolan (as far as we've >seen) doesn't have it. He's interested in Elder Sorcery, sure, but he's >been working on (obsessed with!) other things as well. We don't really know what kinds of mischief Morrolan gets into in his free time. (Which is pretty much always, come to think of it.) He may be filling massive storage rooms in Castle Black full of chaos stones or something. What was he doing during the events of /Teckla/ for example? I think he gets mentioned once in that book. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 06:42:01 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:42:01 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: Casey Rousseau Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 08:09 PM To Dragaera list cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS >> with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The >bloodline, according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. >> >On the other hand, for a Dragaeran, spending 50-100 years learning >something is hardly time to scratch the surface. My feeling is that this depends a great deal on the topic being studied. I've given this particular topic a lot of consideration. (Mostly in developing the Terics Academy) How long do Dragaerans study a subject? What is their equivilent to a 4-year university course? Given that a Dragaeran's lifespan (3000 years plus or minus) is on the order of 38 times longer than ours, a simple proportional adjustment would work out to around 150 years or so. However, there's only so much information to learn on any given subject. Does it really take three decades to finish the equivilent of "College Writing 101"? My answer (for matters of military theory and tactics, anyway) was that seventeen years of intensive study would be sufficient time to grasp the subject. Of course, one might well ask (and I have) why it takes Dragaerans so long to study things? I can only conclude that the same factors that give Dragaerans a long lifespan also result in them being very slow learners, at least by our standards. (How old was Savn? 80? 90? And he still needed his hand held to perform basic medicine, after studying it for decades?) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 31 07:26:17 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:26:17 -0700 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Do we have any clues as to when performing genescans became common? > >Certainly they were already in use during Tortaalik's reign, since one was >used on Norathar at that time. > >But is this one of those things that stretches back into antiquity, or is >genescanning a relatively recent innovation? (like within the last cycle >or two?) > >And if it is comparitively recent, how did the Dragon lineages work before >it was developed? > > > How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some characteristics get passed via reincarnation? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 31 07:43:37 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:43:37 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) References: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) > > > Noish-pa is v. surprised to meet a Dragaeran witch. > How many Dragons do you know? From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 31 08:04:54 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:04:54 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Although, perhaps you are > merely implying that the Dragaeran sorcerer would do it by taking up > witchcraft? > Yes, that's it exactly. The theory being proposed was that Witchcraft could be used to create amorphia, and that this was a reason to supress the knowledge because South Adrilankha (not to mention the East) would be full of walking time bombs. My point was that any sorceror can learn Witchcraft. The fact that they don't is indicative of the fact that they find nothing useful about doing so. Summoning amorphia would be, if not useful, at least something significant enough to learn the ability. In other words, the people you'd need to guard against wouldn't be the ignorant oppressed Easterners living in your slums or the supersitious Easterners halfway 'round the world who had never even heard of amorphia. It'd be your local sorcerors who might have the ability (or the temerity at least) to try and use an amorphia summoning spell to further their own agendas. If it can be done with Witchcraft then, by definition, it is NOT an Easterner only ability. Dragaerans can perform Witchcraft just as effectively as an Easterner, assuming that our hypothetical Dragaeran has had the proper training. Since we know that only Dragaerans of a certain lineage are able to do this trick, we know by inference that it is NOT a witchcraft-based ability. Therefore, there's no reason to supress the information in order to prevent Easterners from hearing about it. In fact, it sounds rare enough in Dragaerans that I'd imagine that your average Dragaeran sorcer doesn't even know about it except as possibly a theoretical concept. From st.shafer at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 12:28:17 2006 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:28:17 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow for the control of amophia.) From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 31 12:43:13 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:43:13 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43DFCBE1.6060507@brazee.net> Stephen Shafer wrote: >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow for >the control of amophia.) > > > Why not? If nothing else it can be a doomsday weapon. But when learning their craft, they don't know how dangerous nor how useful amorphia can be. From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Jan 31 12:53:45 2006 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:53:45 -0500 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> References: Message-ID: <43DF8809.18162.14EFDC0@localhost> On 31 Jan 2006 at 8:26, Howard Brazee wrote > How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in > our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some > characteristics get passed via reincarnation? > _______________________________________________ Dragaera mailing list > Dragaera at dragaera.info http://dragaera.info, Doesn't Aliera refer to a genescan as "mind-probing a finger"? Although I am not a geneticist, I don't believe that's how it's done here ;-) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 31 12:52:31 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:17:17 PST." Message-ID: <200601312052.k0VKqW8J000565@vice-grips.mit.edu> > > Do we have any clues as to when performing genescans became common? > > Certainly they were already in use during Tortaalik's reign, since one was > used on Norathar at that time. > > But is this one of those things that stretches back into antiquity, or is > genescanning a relatively recent innovation? (like within the last cycle > or two?) > > And if it is comparitively recent, how did the Dragon lineages work before > it was developed? > > Majikjon > I don't think that genescans are what would be considered common. The scan on Norathar was a special case, performed by the Sethra the Younger as part of an official inquiry. It wasn't performed casually, and I imagine is not something that can typically be done easily. So, while Dragaerans have the ability to do genescans, I'm guessing that, much like our own paternity tests, they're not performed that often. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 31 13:10:00 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:10:00 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowaboutKragar?) In-Reply-To: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <019d01c626aa$b2468660$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she > could? (since > witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, > does it allow for > the control of amophia.) No reason that I can think of. The whole discussion came about, I think, as speculation about how the ability could be something other than "genetic" and also, to some extent, born out of some questionable (to my mind) rationalizations about why Witchcraft (and by extension, Easterners) is "better or more special" than Sorcery (and by extension, Dragaerans). Ultimately, of course, the answer is "Because Steve thought it was Cool." For those in the audience unfamiliar with the Cool Theory of Literature, check out this interview with Steve: http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20030203/brust.shtml It's one of his wittier interviews. ;-) From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 13:29:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:29:33 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Stephen Shafer Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/31/06 12:28 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow for >the control of amophia.) Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? I can think of two offhand... Majikjon Of course, I don't subscribe to the theory that this is even possible, so the point is kind of moot. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 13:44:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:44:57 -0800 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/31/06 07:26 AM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! >How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in >our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some >characteristics get passed via reincarnation? Hmm... What *does* genescan mean in *our* world? Is that like when you go to the checkout line at The Gap? Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 14:46:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:46:43 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > >for the control of amophia.) > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her response of "We shall see" when one of the other Gods (K?urana, I see from search-inside) points out that Morrolan does not have the "bloodlines to use such powers fully". That is, not that he somehow is secretly an e'Kieron, but that witchcraft combined with Elder Sorcery can do the tricks that ordinarily the "proper bloodlines" would require. Hm. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 14:49:25 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:49:25 -0800 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: References: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > >How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in > >our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some > >characteristics get passed via reincarnation? > > Hmm... What *does* genescan mean in *our* world? Is that like when you go > to the checkout line at The Gap? > *Snort*. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 14:50:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > > >for the control of amophia.) > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her > response of "We shall see" Noted earlier in the discussion, I think... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 14:58:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:58:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: References: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test My wife and I are having our first child, and just got past the nerve-wracking genetics tests older couples get subjected to. Gattacca ahoy. No doubt Dragaerans will have to consider eugenics-related questions themselves, even if their genomes have been scrubbed of nasty hereditary diseases. Is your fetus really a Phoenix or just a cuckoo? From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 15:11:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:11:56 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > > > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > > > >for the control of amophia.) > > > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her > > response of "We shall see" > > Noted earlier in the discussion, I think... It is true that your noting is why I had it in mind to connect to the witch+elder sorceror idea. However, you did not expand upon merely noting it. But credit where due: "Based upon an observation made by Philip Hart". From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 15:24:51 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:24:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/31/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > > > > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > > > > >for the control of amophia.) > > > > > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > > > > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her > > > response of "We shall see" > > > > Noted earlier in the discussion, I think... > > It is true that your noting is why I had it in mind to connect to the > witch+elder sorceror idea. However, you did not expand upon merely > noting it. But credit where due: > > "Based upon an observation made by Philip Hart". One more such credit and I am ruined. Once I expanded, but now my function here is just to note. Oh, and to disagree. From shawnb at stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 15:34:07 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:34:07 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:47 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? > > >(since witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, > > >does it allow for the control of amophia.) > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant > by her response of "We shall see" when one of the other Gods > (K?urana, I see from search-inside) points out that Morrolan > does not have the "bloodlines to use such powers fully". > That is, not that he somehow is secretly an e'Kieron, but > that witchcraft combined with Elder Sorcery can do the tricks > that ordinarily the "proper bloodlines" > would require. > > Hm. Or that Verra knew about the infusion of her blood Morrolan was going to receive in the future, and that her blood is either similar to or identical with the e'Kieron bloodline so that it will enable its bearers to use such powers fully. Shawn From kknolte at ecity.net Tue Jan 31 10:02:28 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:02:28 +0100 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) References: <00db01c622a3$6e1b3bd0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <43DFA632.2AFC@ecity.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Majikjon writ: > > > This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers > > for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? > > > > Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out > >, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. > > There's no one true standard. There are many here, who, in addition to the > Subject alert you added, would add spoiler space to the body of their > message. MV Would a weird thought that tangentially reveals something need spoilers? For instance, for those who've read Klava with Honey S P O I L E R I read the introduction of the new character, and started wondering if SKZB was planning a Monty Python joke that he'd laid the groundwork for years ago, to wit, the possibility of the following reply as to how he knew Sethra "She turned me into a teckla" "A teckla?" "I got better." (Presumably we are not going to find out that Sethra weighs as much as a duck, and that's how everyone found out she was undead, nor that there's a Serioli town called Antioch that specializes in Morganti hand grenades.) Anyway, opinions on whether that would need spoiler protection? Karen S P O I L E R From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Feb 1 07:32:39 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:32:39 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: <43DFA632.2AFC@ecity.net> Message-ID: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Actually, Steve isn't setting up that joke because he's already used it. I forget the exact circumstances now (probably when Vlad is going to meet Sethra for the first time in _Taltos_) but Vlad is asked "What if she turns you into a newt?" and he replies "I'll get better." Cracks and Shards, Mark Mandel's Dragaera site, has a jokes and allusions page that should list it and many others. http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/jokes.html From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 1 10:17:23 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:17:23 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? Message-ID: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> I just ordered *_Anti-Duhring: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in Science_. *And I have so much fiction in my in-basket! But if Steve says Engels is worth reading, I'll give it a try. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:32:53 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:32:53 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? References: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:17 AM Subject: What's a Duhring? > I just ordered *_Anti-Duhring: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in > Science_. *And I have so much fiction in my in-basket! > > But if Steve says Engels is worth reading, I'll give it a try. Maybe it is a webring of confused people? The Duh Ring? I think I still have a copy floating around somewhere, from my Poly Sci days in college. Jeff -Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just leave me alone" style of self government. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 10:42:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:42:43 -0800 Subject: What's a Duhring? In-Reply-To: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 10:17 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject What's a Duhring? >I just ordered *_Anti-Duhring: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in >Science_. *And I have so much fiction in my in-basket! > >But if Steve says Engels is worth reading, I'll give it a try. If you get impatient to start reading it, I found what appears to be the entire text online here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ Looks like good stuff. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 1 10:43:24 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:43:24 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? In-Reply-To: References: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43E1014C.1010407@brazee.net> > >Jeff >-Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just >leave me alone" style of self government. > > It's nice to read Dumas to make my enjoyment of on-topic books more complete. And while I expect this won't be as applicable as _/*History of the Russian Revolution*/_, I expect there might be some relationship. The trick to enjoying politics is to control how personal it gets. The more of an intellectual pastime it is, the easier this is. ____ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:55:31 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:55:31 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? References: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> <43E1014C.1010407@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: What's a Duhring? > > > > >Jeff > >-Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just > >leave me alone" style of self government. > > > > > > It's nice to read Dumas to make my enjoyment of on-topic books more > complete. And while I expect this won't be as applicable as _/*History > of the Russian Revolution*/_, I expect there might be some relationship. > > The trick to enjoying politics is to control how personal it gets. The > more of an intellectual pastime it is, the easier this is. > ____ > > I think I have that one as well. My poli sci teacher was a refugee from Russia. You are correct about the "trick" of politics, but like religion most take it very personally even if they have no understanding of it's fundamentals. I just find politics to depressing, the failure of ideals when applied in real life does that to me. Jeff -Has found a copy of Anti Durhing on the web, and is reading it as well. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ From ike at manor.org Wed Feb 1 11:34:10 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 14:34:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > Actually, Steve isn't setting up that joke because he's already used it. I > forget the exact circumstances now (probably when Vlad is going to meet > Sethra for the first time in _Taltos_) but Vlad is asked "What if she turns > you into a newt?" and he replies "I'll get better." Memory tells me it's an exchange between Vlad and either Kragar or Liosh before heading over to Dzur mountain for the first time, but memory's lied to me in the past... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 11:46:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:46:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> References: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock > > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:47 PM > > To: Dragaera List > > Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad > > > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? > > > >(since witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, > > > >does it allow for the control of amophia.) > > > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant > > by her response of "We shall see" when one of the other Gods > > (K?urana, I see from search-inside) points out that Morrolan > > does not have the "bloodlines to use such powers fully". > > That is, not that he somehow is secretly an e'Kieron, but > > that witchcraft combined with Elder Sorcery can do the tricks > > that ordinarily the "proper bloodlines" > > would require. > > > > Hm. > > Or that Verra knew about the infusion of her blood Morrolan was going to > receive in the future, and that her blood is either similar to or identical > with the e'Kieron bloodline so that it will enable its bearers to use such > powers fully. > Ah, but there is also the point that the infusion was possible *because* Morrolan is also a witch. Aliera couldn't have done it because she was not a witch, and Vlad was too exhausted from the process of just getting the bottle. Changing the discussion to a somewhat meta-mode, I have recently read Teresa Neilsen Hayden's comments on story efficiency: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007172.html (and the original essay she is commenting on:) http://www.kith.org/journals/jed/2006/01/09/3317.html And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to leave the Paths without dying." I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by Verra). Oh, well. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:01:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:01:34 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: References: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Ike Porter wrote: > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Actually, Steve isn't setting up that joke because he's already used it. I > > forget the exact circumstances now (probably when Vlad is going to meet > > Sethra for the first time in _Taltos_) but Vlad is asked "What if she turns > > you into a newt?" and he replies "I'll get better." > > Memory tells me it's an exchange between Vlad and either Kragar or Liosh > before heading over to Dzur mountain for the first time, but memory's lied > to me in the past... There *are* memory aids out there, including dragaera.info's Book search and Amazon.com's search inside. Thus we can discover, since the word "newt" only occurs twice in the books indexed by Book search, that the book was /Yendi/, and further, that the exchange occurred in chapter 16. Morrolan asks the question, and the previous occurrence of the word "newt" was a threat being made to Vlad in Morrolan's hearing (/She looked back at me and smiled sweetly. "How would you," she said, "like to be a newt?/, (Yendi ch1)). While dragaera.info book search does not disclose enough text to identify the speaker, Amazon.com's search inside allows you to view the entire page, and one can thus see that the speaker, as one would indeed suspect given that this occurs in /Yendi/, is none other than the Sorceress in Green. QED From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 1 12:08:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: References: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > There *are* memory aids out there, including dragaera.info's Book > search When's that getting expanded, btw? > and Amazon.com's search inside. The other day when I cited V on M re ES, I used amazon search to find the quote, and I meant to thank Davdi for the pointer, which I now do belatedly. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 1 12:15:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:15:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather > roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, > instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make > a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to > leave the Paths without dying." > > I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood > not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if > you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal > to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by > Verra). Oh, well. I don't understand "additional" above. Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 12:17:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:17:32 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:08 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> There *are* memory aids out there, including dragaera.info's Book >> search > >When's that getting expanded, btw? > >> and Amazon.com's search inside. > >The other day when I cited V on M re ES, I used amazon search to find >the quote, and I meant to thank Davdi for the pointer, which I now do >belatedly. Search Inside is a wonderful thing. The only minor gripe I have with it is that the OCR software they used seems to have trouble with apostrophes; which wreaks havoc with the names of Dragon lineages. "e7rics" for example, instead of "e'Terics". This made it more difficult to track down names for the Dramatis Personae page on the wikicity. On the plus side, it does, at least, have text for almost all the Dragaera books (except for BP, unfortunately). Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Feb 1 12:19:45 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:19:45 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <027701c6276c$d935f0e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Memory tells me it's an exchange between Vlad and either > Kragar or Liosh > before heading over to Dzur mountain for the first time, but > memory's lied > to me in the past... That's what I thought also but after actually reading the jokes and allusions page, it turns out it had something to do with Morollan and Vlad sharing a giggle over Vlad antagonizing the Sorceress in Green in Yendi. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 12:20:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:20:12 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:15 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather >> roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, >> instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make >> a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to >> leave the Paths without dying." > >I don't understand "additional" above. > >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally >semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. I believe this came up in another thread recently... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 1 12:24:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > > > >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > >semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. > > There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that > Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. Not I think relevant - V could have whapped Her forehead and said, D'oh, that's why I had that intuition, now I have to cut Myself again. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 12:30:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:30:19 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:24 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Philip Hart >> > >> >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange >> >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally >> >semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. >> >> There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that >> Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. > >Not I think relevant - V could have whapped Her forehead and said, D'oh, >that's why I had that intuition, now I have to cut Myself again. This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a blood transfusion to Morrolan would work. This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:43:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:43:27 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather > > roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, > > instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make > > a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to > > leave the Paths without dying." > > > > I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood > > not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if > > you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal > > to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by > > Verra). Oh, well. > > I don't understand "additional" above. I was trying to refer, elliptically, to the political/psychological handwave you refer to below. I probably should have worded it better. > Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. Yes, but I was thinking that the Shore where the Cycle was seemed to be private, or at least, not often visited by the Gods. So Verra could theoretically have done the deed there. Perhaps. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:51:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:51:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > >> Philip Hart > >> > > >> >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > >> >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > >> >semi-public? > >> >Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. > >> > >> There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that > >> Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. > > > >Not I think relevant - V could have whapped Her forehead and said, D'oh, > >that's why I had that intuition, now I have to cut Myself again. > > This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a blood > transfusion to Morrolan would work. > > This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. > > She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. > Perhaps. Yet Vlad got the idea of the blood transfusion from Verra's remarks that at least part of being a god was in the blood (Indeed, citing specifically: "My blood is the blood of a god. It is for this reason that the Halls of judgment cannot hold me.") Although there is also Aliera's similar statement about her own blood, I see. Was Verra truly not hinting to Vlad the direction he should be thinking? Who can say? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 13:43:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:43:18 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:51 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: >> This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a blood >> transfusion to Morrolan would work. >> >> This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. >> >> She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. >> > >Perhaps. Yet Vlad got the idea of the blood transfusion from Verra's >remarks that at least part of being a god was in the blood (Indeed, >citing specifically: "My blood is the blood of a god. It is for this >reason that the Halls of judgment cannot hold me.") Although there is >also Aliera's similar statement about her own blood, I see. > >Was Verra truly not hinting to Vlad the direction he should be thinking? I don't there's any question he was inferring this from her comments, but was she deliberately implying this by making them? I honestly don't think we have enough clues to determine her exact intentions. >Who can say? Of course, it's also possible that the entire "Verra-has-special-plans-for-Morrolan" angle is simply Paarfi propoganda. In the two instances where *Vlad* has witnessed Verra meeting Morrolan (in /Taltos/ and /Issola/), there seemingly hasn't been any special kind of connection there. (At least not that he has commented on.) This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or Paarfi? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 1 15:17:58 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:17:58 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E141A6.6090209@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Of course, it's also possible that the entire >"Verra-has-special-plans-for-Morrolan" angle is simply Paarfi propoganda. >In the two instances where *Vlad* has witnessed Verra meeting Morrolan (in >/Taltos/ and /Issola/), there seemingly hasn't been any special kind of >connection there. (At least not that he has commented on.) > >This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or >Paarfi? > > > Well, let's assume that Morrolan is needed - to prepare Vlad for whatever. Paarfi would certainly want to push Morrolan's role and discount Vlad's role in his own mind - and in his writings. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 2 06:15:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:15:03 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:15 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Well, let's assume that Morrolan is needed - to prepare Vlad for >whatever. Paarfi would certainly want to push Morrolan's role and >discount Vlad's role in his own mind - and in his writings. That brings to mind a question I've had since reading /Issola/... How will Dragaerans in general react to the fact that an *Easterner* holds a *Great Weapon*? Isn't that kind of the equivilent of a toddler walking around armed with an Atomic Bomb? Certainly there will be fear of the weapon itself--but I'd imagine that quite a number of Dragaerans will react to it by saying "He really shouldn't have that, it's too dangerous for him, we'd better take it away from him." Of course, that's kind of like the mice voting to bell the cat. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 2 07:06:42 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:06:42 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E22002.7080802@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >That brings to mind a question I've had since reading /Issola/... How will >Dragaerans in general react to the fact that an *Easterner* holds a *Great >Weapon*? > >Isn't that kind of the equivilent of a toddler walking around armed with >an Atomic Bomb? > >Certainly there will be fear of the weapon itself--but I'd imagine that >quite a number of Dragaerans will react to it by saying "He really >shouldn't have that, it's too dangerous for him, we'd better take it away >from him." > >Of course, that's kind of like the mice voting to bell the cat. > >Majikjon > > > It's like GWB saying we should do whatever we can to stop other countries from being like the U.S. If other countries invade or if other countries want nuclear weapons, then we should stop them. But there was a point in Delany's "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones", where they mentioned that law enforcement is designed to prevent change - once the robber barons become society, everything is hunky dory. Dragaeran society probably has lots of objections to who should have Great Weapons. But once they're owned, they are pragmatic about it. The main interest here might be in the succession rights of the GodSlayer. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 2 07:34:15 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:34:15 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:15:02 PST." Message-ID: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> > > > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather > > roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, > > instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make > > a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to > > leave the Paths without dying." > > > > I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood > > not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if > > you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal > > to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by > > Verra). Oh, well. > > I don't understand "additional" above. > > Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. Why wouldn't Aliera's do? or Vlad's, for that matter? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 2 08:09:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:09:07 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43E22002.7080802@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 07:06 AM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Of course, that's kind of like the mice voting to bell the cat. I realized too late that I really should have said "the teckla voting to bell the dzur." Oh well. >objections to who should have Great Weapons. But once they're owned, >they are pragmatic about it. I love the ambiguity of that sentence. Owned is what they will be if they try to mess with Vlad now... ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 2 09:19:19 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:19:19 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0dea01c6281c$cd9ad6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Y'know, I think that we're reaching a point here where we have to invoke Occam's Razor and try taking things at face value instead of looking for hidden meanings and motivations for everything. Fact - Sethra tells Vlad in _Issola_ that Verra had no idea why the vial was needed. Fact - Verra is not omniscient. In fact, she quite often has no more idea about what's going on in the world than the mortal protagonists. We get several examples of this in _Phoenix_, _Issola_, and others. Fact - When Vlad and Morrolan arrive in the Halls of Judgement, Morollan is not accorded any special treatment. Reading _Taltos_, in fact, one would never have an inkling of "Morollan the high priest" or whatever it is that an Easterner might view his relationship with Verra to be. Fact - Verra never suggests a solution the problem of getting Morollan out alive. In fact, she tells him that he's stuck there, and she reprimands Aliera when Aliera suggests that she'd rather stay in the Halls and die than leave Morollan behind. Fact - Verra explaining about blood is a case of explaining the facts of life. She's not giving a covert hint unless it's very covert. Vlad makes the connection on his own. Additionally, there's no way that Verra could have expected him to succeed as he did. He attempted something that no-one had ever done before and that very easily could have killed him or driven him mad, all for a Dragonlord that he barely knew and certainly didn't think of as a trusted friend yet. Given all of the above, there's no way that Verra could have planned for the events to transpire as they did. She simply went with the flow when she got a hunch. In fact, it appears from the varous stories that Verra seldom plans anything. She just gets an idea and acts on it. Ultimately, I think we have to let go of the idea that Vlad and/or Morollan are somehow "special" to Verra. They're useful tools, and they're "special" to the extent that they have a semi-personal relationship with their patron goddess. We've seen what happens when Vlad pushes his luck and over-reaches his bounds. Verra certainly has many other "tools" and worshippers who are just as important to her. We simply don't encounter them because they aren't germane to the stories. Verra didn't shed any tears when Morollan showed up in the Halls and was condemned to death. I doubt she'll shed tears when any of our protagonists eventually dies in her service. She's not as bad as the Jenoine, but in her own way she looks at her charges in much the same way that the Jenoine viewed their slaves and test subjects. She repays respect, loyalty, and "worship" with the blessings that one expects to get from a god for giving her those things. In other respects, she's a lot more like an employer than a parent. In the end, to the gods the dragaerans are short-lived creatures whose usefulness in advancing the agendas of the Lords of Judgement is normally more important than affection towards a handful of them. Verra is subject to this viewpoint as much as the other Gods. If Morollan died, Verra would just go find another person to take his place. She expects people to take responsibility for their lives and their actions. She has never yet attempted to save anyone from making a bad decision or to mitigate the effects of making a bad or life-altering decision. In fact, looking at the events of _Phoenix_, she has no trouble putting her "tools" into situations that will ultimately make things worse for them. However much Verra likes Vlad and Morollan, in the end they're both just useful mortals. They're not her children or personal friends. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 2 10:18:53 2006 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:18:53 EST Subject: What's a Duhring? Message-ID: In a message dated 02/02/2006 1:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, dragaera-request at dragaera.info writes: Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:55:31 -0700 From: "Jeff G." Subject: Re: What's a Duhring? To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: What's a Duhring? > > > > >Jeff > >-Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just > >leave me alone" style of self government. > > > > > > It's nice to read Dumas to make my enjoyment of on-topic books more > complete. And while I expect this won't be as applicable as _/*History > of the Russian Revolution*/_, I expect there might be some relationship. > > The trick to enjoying politics is to control how personal it gets. The > more of an intellectual pastime it is, the easier this is. > ____ > > >I think I have that one as well. My poli sci teacher was a refugee from >Russia. You are correct about the "trick" of politics, but like religion >most take it very personally even if they have no understanding of it's >fundamentals. I just find politics to depressing, the failure of ideals when >applied in real life does that to me. >Jeff >-Has found a copy of Anti Durhing on the web, and is reading it as well. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ It may also be worth it to read Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Nations' to get a feel for what Marx is writing against. Or even better yet 'New Ideas From Dead Economists' by Feldstein and Buchholz. It is a primer to economic theory and is written in plain english. An enjoyable read and you may learn something too. John D. Barbato, OD From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 10:45:56 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:45:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <0dea01c6281c$cd9ad6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0dea01c6281c$cd9ad6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > Fact - Verra never suggests a solution the problem of getting Morollan out > alive. In fact, she tells him that he's stuck there, and she reprimands > Aliera when Aliera suggests that she'd rather stay in the Halls and die than > leave Morollan behind. > > Fact - Verra explaining about blood is a case of explaining the facts of > life. She's not giving a covert hint unless it's very covert. "Fact" 0 begs the question rebegged in "Fact" 1. From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 2 12:20:06 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:20:06 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > "Fact" 0 begs the question rebegged in "Fact" 1. > If Vlad had the vial with him at the time, or Verra had been speaking to Vlad, I'd buy into that idea more easily. As it happens, it was Aliera who demanded an explanation for why Morollan had to stay, and Verra's reaction was "I don't owe you an explanation." It was only Aliera's status as her daughter that caused her to reconsider and answer her. Verra's only words addressed to Vlad were "Don't come back." If that's a hint, it's a pretty round-about way to give one. As far as Verra was concerned, Morollan was there for good. Rather than supposing that Verra set Vlad up to rescue Morollan, I'd be more inclined to believe that Vlad's rescue of him (combined with negotiating the Paths at his side in the first place) was what brought him to her attention. Before that he was just a member of a semi-devout family of her worshippers. After that, he became "useful". From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 12:19:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:19:41 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote > > >On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > >> This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a > >> blood transfusion to Morrolan would work. > >> > >> This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. > >> > >> She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. > >> > > > >Perhaps. Yet Vlad got the idea of the blood transfusion from Verra's > >remarks that at least part of being a god was in the blood (Indeed, > >citing specifically: "My blood is the blood of a god. It is for this > >reason that the Halls of Judgment cannot hold me.") Although there is > >also Aliera's similar statement about her own blood, I see. > > > >Was Verra truly not hinting to Vlad the direction he should be thinking? > > I don't there's any question he was inferring this from her comments, but > was she deliberately implying this by making them? > I honestly don't think we have enough clues to determine her exact > intentions. Well, I think it *may* be significant that she explicitly states that it is her blood "that the Halls of Judgment cannot hold me." I *think* that that could be counted as at least one clue that she was hinting something when she said it. After all, she could easily have said something like "I'm a god, therefore I can leave the Halls of Judgement with no problems" (leaving the underlying mechanism opaque to Vlad) (although there's still Aliera's statement as another hint, which I am pretty sure was unintended by Aliera). But as you say, that's not really enough of a clue to determine Verra's *exact* intentions. > >Who can say? > > Of course, it's also possible that the entire > "Verra-has-special-plans-for-Morrolan" angle is simply Paarfi propoganda. Good point. I can even speculate it as a sequence of events in Morrolan's future (because I have been pondering Paarfi's reference to Morrolan's appearance in the past tense at the end of SL): Morrolan, because of the infusion of godblood, apotheosisizes [1], with Verra showing up as his sponsor-god (or something like that). Observers of this event argue that that means that Verra has *always* had a special bond with Morrolan, while in fact she is just trying to make the best of the series of accidents that lead to the creation of this new god. > In the two instances where *Vlad* has witnessed Verra meeting Morrolan (in > /Taltos/ and /Issola/), there seemingly hasn't been any special kind of > connection there. (At least not that he has commented on.) Ah, but recall: People hear the words of the gods differently. It might be very interesting indeed to see what *Morrolan* heard when Verra was speaking. > This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or > Paarfi? Well, yes. ________________________________________________ 1: (someone is definitely going to smack me for that one) From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 12:42:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:42:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > If Vlad had the vial with him at the time, or Verra had been speaking to > Vlad, I'd buy into that idea more easily. As it happens, it was Aliera who > demanded an explanation for why Morollan had to stay, and Verra's reaction > was "I don't owe you an explanation." It was only Aliera's status as her > daughter that caused her to reconsider and answer her. Verra's only words > addressed to Vlad were "Don't come back." I still think that a hint for Vlad's ears might have been a possible intention, although there the question arises, do the gods have any *control* over what their listeners hear? If they do, then why would Verra give away to Vlad something that might be considered a divine secret? > If that's a hint, it's a pretty round-about way to give one. Well, exactly. No-one is saying that it was a heavy-handed hint. > As far as Verra was concerned, Morollan was there for good. Not necessarily. Recall her words about Morrolan becoming an undead. If Vlad had not done the teleport trick, Morrolan might have been allowed to leave that way, perhaps after some more bickering and/or dickering with the gods > Rather than > supposing that Verra set Vlad up to rescue Morollan, I'd be more inclined to > believe that Vlad's rescue of him (combined with negotiating the Paths at > his side in the first place) was what brought him to her attention. Before > that he was just a member of a semi-devout family of her worshippers. After > that, he became "useful". And that, too, is a valid interpretation. After all, multiple possibilites for interpretation is why there is discussion in the first place. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 2 12:46:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:46:18 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 12:20 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad >If Vlad had the vial with him at the time, or Verra had been speaking to >Vlad, I'd buy into that idea more easily. As it happens, it was Aliera who >demanded an explanation for why Morollan had to stay, and Verra's reaction >was "I don't owe you an explanation." It was only Aliera's status as her >daughter that caused her to reconsider and answer her. Verra's only words Well, that's how it *appears*, anyway. We don't hear Verra's inner monologue, so her motivations are cloudy. Go ask Trout, I guess. >addressed to Vlad were "Don't come back." If that's a hint, it's a pretty >round-about way to give one. S'true. I'm personally inclined to believe that Vlad came up with the idea on his own, and that Verra's speach was just what it appeared to be... If for no other reason than that I think Vlad's a pretty clever guy. But I can't *prove* it. >As far as Verra was concerned, Morollan was there for good. Rather than Well, that's an assumption. But possibly a correct one. >supposing that Verra set Vlad up to rescue Morollan, I'd be more inclined to >believe that Vlad's rescue of him (combined with negotiating the Paths at >his side in the first place) was what brought him to her attention. Before >that he was just a member of a semi-devout family of her worshippers. After >that, he became "useful". This might work for both of them (Vlad and Morrolan) actually. (If we assume that Paarfi doesn't really know anything about Morrolan's relationship with Verra, and just made up huge wodges of speculation of his own in VoA.) Perhaps it was Morrolan's ability to escape the Paths that really made Verra take note of him. I suppose the chief argument against this is existence of Morrolan's window. Verra apparently gave it to him *before* he showed up in the Paths--but to the left, we really only have Paarfi's word on this, since Vlad doesn't see it (chronologically, anyway) until the time of /Dragon/. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 12:50:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:50:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [spec on Verra hinting] Let's not forget where the info comes from. From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 2 13:21:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:21:57 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43E277F5.2070100@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I still think that a hint for Vlad's ears might have been a possible >intention, although there the question arises, do the gods have any >*control* over what their listeners hear? If they do, then why would >Verra give away to Vlad something that might be considered a divine >secret? > > That's a big issue - I don't see evidence that gods think and plan the way people do. They are different - remember whose servants they were. Cause and effect is different, as are memories and even revenge. They are more "natural" in their actions. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:05:11 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:05:11 -0800 Subject: Brust Convention schedule Message-ID: Huh. Dragaera.info doesn't have any of these: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica/ Just in case anyone is interested. From steve at romlin.com Thu Feb 2 14:40:00 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:40:00 +0100 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. Message-ID: Just finished "Brokedown Palace" and after getting over enjoying the good read, (which it was!) I realized I was really left dissatisfied. It's not unusual for a story to leave minor details and players incomplete, but it seemed to me that this book left ALL the major details and players incomplete. Everything important. The events are there, but that's it. Looking it over again, pretty much every major thing that happens, happens not because some human decides to do it, but because some supernatural agency decides to. And those agencies are more than half unidentified. The humans are, for the most part, unwitting pawns, and the players and their motivations are left mysterious. Even knowing what I know from the rest of Brust's books, I was unable to guess what really went on. So feel free to correct me if I've missed something, but-- : (Sort-of spoilers implied in the questions here) . . . . . . . . . . What is Verra trying to accomplish with her support of those she supports? Who is working against her? Why is it necessary to move so drastically against her? Wouldn't a chat help? Is the River a power in itself or a representative of some other power? Which one? Is Brigitta a power in herself or a representative of that same power? Ditto Bolk? Why must Sandor be eliminated? Mom n Dad? Reszo? In most basic terms, is this a Gods vs. Nature, Gods vs. Gods, or Gods vs. Man, or Man vs. Man struggle? And -- Why does Brigitta have to leave? She never explains really. Yes, I realize that the Fenarian folk-tales interspersed are also lacking in motivations and that this may just be following a tradition. But most of those tales also credit the Demon Goddess with being the driving force. This obviously does not. So any theories, or am I just questioning the ineffable? \Steve the Younger From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 14:59:23 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:59:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or descended from one, as far as we know. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 1 09:39:18 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:39:18 EST Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? Message-ID: On 12/27/2005 8:56:20 PM, kknolte at ecity.net wrote: >Or, hm, have we ever heard anything about Serioli gods? How about this? The Paths of the Dead, paperback, Chapter the Thirty-Fourth, page 385 "At that instant, she found that she was looking at one of the gods she had not hitherto confronted. This one appeared to her as a being not unlike a Serioli, a very old Serioli--one with wrinkles and splotches of great age, and whose gnarled hands rested palms up upon thin knees the outlines of which were visible beneath a frail garment of dark blue. And in those hands and upon those knees was an object that Zerika knew at once, though she had never seen it, nor, indeed, heard more than the most cursory description of it." From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 16:31:08 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:31:08 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >-- Jon Lincicum wrote: > >>in the same way--translation: Vlad knows perfectly well what the deal >is >>with Kragar, but just hasn't chosen to share that information with >the >>silver box he talks to (i.e the reader). > >>Not necessarily. I was thinking today about detective novel tropes. > >The hero(ine) has > - the sidekick, > - the friend on the force or elsewhere in power, > - and various other people with special knowledge or abilities to call >on. > >Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, >as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to >look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work >that he DELEGATES to K. > > Yes, certainly that's the kind of work that Vlad delegated to Kragar--AFTER he decided to let Kragar be his chief lieutenant. But given Vlad's penchant for careful preparation in regards to setting up an assassination (done in the early days BEFORE Kragar was working for him), it seems unusual that he wouldn't take the time to do the same sort of work up on Kragar--detective story conventions aside. As to not having the resources to look into Kragar's past--well, there are two ways to look at that. #1. Certainly Vlad had some good friends at that point (He hadn't met Morrolan or Sethra yet, but he had met /Kiera/, and Nielar was a close associate (who had employed Kragar himself (partnering him with Vlad) prior to that). Secondly, it seems likely that if he HADN'T been able to do a good work up on Kragar, he wouldn't have offered him the job. (Thier friendship up to that point was nice and all, but hardly the kind of thing Vlad would be willing to bet his life on.) I dunno. That's just how I see it. Vlad didn't stay alive in the Jhereg for so long *just* by being lucky. (Although there was certainly a good amount of luck involved.) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 16:32:05 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:32:05 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20060101050625.17123.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060101050625.17123.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B87485.8080108@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: >--- Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > >>Upon further review, the online dictionary I consulted actually lists >> >> >the translation of Localis as "Local" (which I must have taken to mean >"localle" when I was reading it earlier) > >"locale"? (one "L") > > Umm.. Yeah. Apparently Latin isn't the only language I'm having trouble with at the moment. ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 16:34:30 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:34:30 -0800 Subject: Concerning Plurality In-Reply-To: <20060101051422.27554.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060101051422.27554.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B87516.4080005@comcast.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- And now I see that "Majikjon" -- the founder of the Terics Academy -- > >has moved it to a "Meta" page, which is appropriate since it's discussion >of the Tsalmoth OUTSIDE the universe of the stories (Doylist rather than >Watsonian), and has added a whole lot of the information that has come up >in this thread, organized very nicely. > > In all fairness, while I moved the article to Meta, Davdi of Silverrock should be credited for the expansion of the article (and a very nice job he did of it, as well). >:-) > >mam/c&s -- and a very happy New Year to all! > > Indeed. Hope you all didn't get too sloshed last night. (Oooo, my head.) Where's an anti-hangover spell when you really need one? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 1 17:55:04 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:55:04 -0800 Subject: Another candidate for Vlad's mother in BP (Minor BP Spoliers) In-Reply-To: <43A5E2DB.9040204@comcast.net> References: <121820050130.14282.43A4BB9D000E3F62000037CA2200761064039A0C070C020704@comcast.net> <43A5DD64.4080103@comcast.net> <43A5E2DB.9040204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43B887F8.1000508@comcast.net> Mia McDavid wrote: > I have always been sure in my own mind that Vlad's mother was > mentioned in Brokedown Palace. On reviewing names for the Dramatis Personae page at the wikicity, I stumbled across the reference to the one sort of "minor" female character in BP who is a servant at the palace: a woman named Juliska who is the head assistant to the cook (Ambrus the Fat). Since Noish-pa's cat is also named Ambrus, could this be a subtle clue pointing to Juliska as Vlad's mother? Granted, this is a stretch, but the "Mariska-as-Vlad's-Mom" theory seems to be contradicted by Verra's comments in /Issola/, so Juliska is about the only other female candidate we have left (assuming, of course, that Vlad's mother does indeed appear someplace in BP, which is far from certain.) Majikjon From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jan 2 05:06:04 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:06:04 +0100 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > Not necessarily. I was thinking today about detective novel tropes. The > hero(ine) has > - the sidekick, > - the friend on the force or elsewhere in power, > - and various other people with special knowledge or abilities to call > on. > > Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, > as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to > look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work > that he DELEGATES to K. Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? We know that there have been some Dragon-Jhereg wars in the past, where the Jhereg gave a respectable account of themselves as far as assassinating prominent Dragons go. If you take the view that the Dragon's 'honor' relies on going up against someone and winning [1], it would seem likely that they like to know what they're up against before having to design tactics to fight - and Kragar's peculiar talent at being overlooked could be quite useful. [2] Also, the Jhereg were founded by a Dragon, and Draghaera is a world where tribal stereotypes are genetic, rather than cultural - you're not going to find a straightforward Yendi, or a Dzur who couldn't care less about his reputation, etc. So theoretically, Dragon and Jhereg goals shouldn't be that far apart, although what is considered acceptable means would differ. Like, perhaps Dolivar's crime wasn't that he was sneaky, but that he used his sneakiness to take advantage of people's weakness [3]. Karen [1] Presumably there needs to be at least a chance that it's a fair fight - Aliera gave Vlad the name of the Dragon who beat him up because she knew that Vlad couldn't fight back. OTOH, given the talk about Aliera and Morrolan slaughtering Easterners who had no chance of hurting them, their version of a fair fight might be along the lines of an officer who thinks insurgents should form up in a nice exposed position with machine guns so he can shoot them with air support, long-range artillery, and tanks, otherwise they're not brave like he is. [2] For a completely off-the-wall speculation, what if the invisibility is based on a link to the Orb, and the reason Vlad remembers Kragar enough to think of him when he needs a right-hand man, is because he's an Easterner and not that much of a sorceror? Be interesting to know if Kelly's Easterners don't have the problem noticing Kragar that Draghaerans do. [3] As an example of what I'm thinking, in Pratchett's "The Fifth Elephant" "...I didn't know we did this sort of thing!" "You use spies all the time, dear,' said Sybil "I do not!" "Well, what about people like Foul Ole Ron and No Way Jose and Cumbling Michael?' "That is not spying, that is not spying! That's just 'information received' We couldn't do the job if we didn't know what's happening on the street!" So, House of the Dragon doesn't spy, they just want to know what's happening elsewhere so they can do the job. The House of the Jhereg does spy and takes advantage of people's weaknesses (all the stuff that gets outlawed because people won't stop doing it themselves) to win. Ie, a Dragon wouldn't take advantage of a weakness for s'yang stones to blackmail someone - a Jhereg (and by extension Dolivar) would if it's the easiest way to do it. Karen From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 2 12:29:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:29:04 -0800 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> Message-ID: K Kuhn Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/02/06 05:06 AM Please respond to kknolte at ecity.net To "Mark A. Mandel" cc Dragaera list Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the >Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? We Indeed, there's a full page of such musings at the wikicity. See: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Kragar Majikjon From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Jan 2 13:34:10 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:34:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060101112252.02569a68@cox.net> Message-ID: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > It is my vague recollection that Kragar and Vlad were partnered > early in V.'s career doing "work"; Kragar's only requirement was that > V. had to be the boss. Do I misremember? If so, we both do. m a m /c&s __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 2 13:41:20 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:41:20 -0800 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/02/06 01:34 PM To "Peter H. Granzeau" , Dragaera list cc Subject Re: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? >--- "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: >> It is my vague recollection that Kragar and Vlad were partnered >> early in V.'s career doing "work"; Kragar's only requirement was that >> V. had to be the boss. Do I misremember? > >If so, we both do. > >m a m /c&s To be perfectly clear (and by all means, let us be clear), Vlad was partnered with Kragar by Neilar on the condition that he didn't have to give any orders. This does not mean that Vlad became his "boss" at this point, it just put Vlad in charge when the two of them were out "enforcing". (Please note, it is made quite clear that when Vlad began to do "work" he did so on his own, NOT in partnership with Kragar. At least not until Tagichatn was out of the way.) This is confirmed by Kragar's reaction to the results of Vlad's first piece of "work" (Tiev) where he was highly critical of Vlad's methods. This is all as related by Vlad in /Taltos/, so the normal rules about unreliable narrators apply, of course. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 2 14:17:00 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:17:00 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43B9A65C.7010206@brazee.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the >Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? > Once you suspect him of being a deep cover agent, consider alternative bosses he might be working for. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 16:59:25 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:59:25 -0700 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: References: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601021659j1603daeemdd4fbe2734095c5f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > At least not until Tagichatn was out of the way. In passing, I'll note that Vlad's cavalier treatment of Tashigatin's name is one of my favorite parts of Taltos. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 2 16:57:29 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:57:29 -0500 Subject: want a copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to find. I already have a copy of my own. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 2 17:15:22 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:15:22 -0800 Subject: Speculation:Kragar In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601021659j1603daeemdd4fbe2734095c5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060102213410.73899.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0601021659j1603daeemdd4fbe2734095c5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B9D02A.1010002@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>At least not until Tagichatn was out of the way. >> >> > >In passing, I'll note that Vlad's cavalier treatment of Tashigatin's >name is one of my favorite parts of Taltos. > >Max Wilson > It's a nice touch. Really lends a human quality to Vlad's telling of the story. Also nicely reinforces the concept of Vlad as an unreliable narrator. And, heck, it's pretty funny. I'll throw that in, too. ;-) Majikjon From shoby187 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 2 17:39:23 2006 From: shoby187 at yahoo.com (Erik Holmes) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:39:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Say it ain't so! In-Reply-To: <43B9D02A.1010002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, I was just browsing Amazon and came across a link for Dzur that stated that it wasn't going to be out until August. For someone reason I got the impression that it was going to be out much sooner then that. :( Guess I'll go reread Issola for the 10th time . . . (or maybe Phoenix). "I didn't spend all those years playing D&D and not learn a little something about courage." -Some Dork, The X-Files Erik Holmes Shoby187 at yahoo.com AIM: ErikHolmes & Erickh0510 ICQ: 2593395 MSN: Shoby187 at hotmail.com Y!: Shoby187 at yahoo.com __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 2 18:27:02 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:27:02 -0500 Subject: want a copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> References: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> Message-ID: <660CD83D-C5A7-433F-A4D6-EF47255ECBB3@mac.com> On Jan 2, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone > here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to > find. I already have a copy of my own. It is a nice thought, but two weeks too late for me. There is a new edition trade paperback out, so Steve has probably already anted up the $13.95 I spent... From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 2 18:29:20 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:29:20 -0500 Subject: Say it ain't so! In-Reply-To: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C95BDED-B1D4-4A3F-8298-27E664FF87E7@mac.com> On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:39 PM, Erik Holmes wrote: > Ok, I was just browsing Amazon and came across a link for Dzur that > stated that it wasn't going to > be out until August. > > For someone reason I got the impression that it was going to be out > much sooner then that. :( > > Guess I'll go reread Issola for the 10th time . . . (or maybe > Phoenix). > > "I didn't spend all those years playing D&D and not learn a little > something about courage." > -Some Dork, The X-Files > > Erik Holmes > Shoby187 at yahoo.com > AIM: ErikHolmes & Erickh0510 > ICQ: 2593395 > MSN: Shoby187 at hotmail.com > Y!: Shoby187 at yahoo.com Yeah, I prepaid for Dzur (full price, no less) at Amazon, anticipating an April release date. Now it is back to August...I only hope that he is working hard on TSALMOTH to relieve our curiousity...my personal hypothesis is that it is "LAST MOTH" spelled inside out. Ken From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 18:50:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:50:05 -0700 Subject: How will House Phoenix arise from the ashes? In-Reply-To: <43B9A65C.7010206@brazee.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B92539.2197@ecity.net> <43B9A65C.7010206@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601021850g1869dcdasfd0d3cca17d0ba5f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/2/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > K Kuhn wrote: > > >Hm - has anyone on the list ever speculated that Kragar is House of the > >Dragon's deep-cover agent, intended to keep an eye on the Jhereg? > > > Once you suspect him of being a deep cover agent, consider alternative > bosses he might be working for. Paarfi, of course. He's got a vested interest in snooping through other peoples' mail. Betcha Sethra tipped him off, though. ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 02:07:06 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 05:07:06 -0500 Subject: want a copy of Gypsy? In-Reply-To: <660CD83D-C5A7-433F-A4D6-EF47255ECBB3@mac.com> References: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121@no-knife.mit.edu> <660CD83D-C5A7-433F-A4D6-EF47255ECBB3@mac.com> Message-ID: I could use it. On 1/2/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > On Jan 2, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone > > here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to > > find. I already have a copy of my own. > > It is a nice thought, but two weeks too late for me. There is a new > edition trade paperback out, so Steve has probably already anted up > the $13.95 I spent... > > From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 3 06:47:11 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:47:11 -0500 Subject: "J A 'Dusty' Sayers": Re: want a copy of Gypsy? Message-ID: <200601031447.k03ElBsK008089@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu> We have a winner ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: Received: from po11.mit.edu ([unix socket]) by po11.mit.edu (Cyrus v2.1.5) with LMTP; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:22:17 -0500 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu by po11.mit.edu (8.12.4/4.7) id k033MFMl023522; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.68]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id k033MCiC019712 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from nc-67-77-49-44.dyn.sprint-hsd.net ([67.77.49.44] helo=sayersnet.com) by pop-cowbird.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1EtckW-0001U0-00 for jjnichol at MIT.EDU; Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:22:12 -0500 Message-ID: <43B9EDE3.5080905 at sayersnet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:22:11 -0500 From: "J A 'Dusty' Sayers" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, cy, en-gb, ja, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joy Jennifer Nicholson Subject: Re: want a copy of Gypsy? References: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121 at no-knife.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <200601030057.k030vTF6022121 at no-knife.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.191 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 I'd like a copy if you still have it. How much would you want for it (including shipping) and how would you like to be paid? If you've already sold it or given it to someone else, though, that's cool. Thanks! Dusty Sayers Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >I just found an old copy of The Gypsy for $.25 and figured someone >here might want it, since it's out of print and probably hard to >find. I already have a copy of my own. > > > > - -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must.' -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ------- End of Forwarded Message From johne.cook at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 07:48:09 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:48:09 -0600 Subject: Say it ain't so! In-Reply-To: <1C95BDED-B1D4-4A3F-8298-27E664FF87E7@mac.com> References: <20060103013923.3999.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1C95BDED-B1D4-4A3F-8298-27E664FF87E7@mac.com> Message-ID: On 1/2/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > I only > hope that he is working hard on TSALMOTH to relieve our > curiousity...my personal hypothesis is that it is "LAST MOTH" spelled > inside out. > Ken I don't know. Coming up with new names is tricky business. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a complete and utter spur-of-the-moment fabrication out of whole cloth. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 3 14:50:34 2006 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:50:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation Message-ID: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? That would make Aliera his sister both biologically (except for difference in species) and spiritually, explaining why she puts up with/likes Vlad. Maybe if Verra has a child with a Dragaeran, then the child is Dragaeran. If she has a child with an Easterner, then the child is an Easterner. This could explain Vlad's father's dislike of Vlad learning witchcraft, because he may figure things out. Does this make any sense? --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 3 15:06:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:06:59 -0800 Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation In-Reply-To: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Scott Kreitzer Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/03/06 02:50 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Vlad's Mother Speculation >I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. > > Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? > > That would make Aliera his sister both biologically (except for difference in species) and spiritually, explaining why she puts up >with/likes Vlad. > > Maybe if Verra has a child with a Dragaeran, then the child is Dragaeran. If she has a child with an Easterner, then the child is an >Easterner. This could explain Vlad's father's dislike of Vlad learning witchcraft, because he may figure things out. > > Does this make any sense? This is yet another topic on which the wikicity chimes in. Is there anything it *can't* do? http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Vlad_Taltos Majikjon From rone at ennui.org Tue Jan 3 15:14:30 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <001d01c5fb90$f4c21670$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> Bryan Newell writes: So apparently Vlad and Paarfi (and possibly Kiera (Orca), Savn (Athyra), and Miklos (Brokedown Palace)) are narrating these novels to Brust via the magic box. What makes you say this? There's only proof that Vlad is talking to the box. We also know that Steven Brust is translating Paarfi's books. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 16:35:06 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:35:06 -0700 Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation In-Reply-To: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601031635j39f4233akf2ecebabe1a469f9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/3/06, Scott Kreitzer wrote: > I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. > > Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that Verra is Vlad's mother? Anything's *possible*. Previous discussions of this topic have left me unconvinced. There's not enough positive evidence in its favor, and significant contradictions involved. Devera calls Morrolan "Uncle 'Rolan" as well; she may very well know about the spiritual connection between Dolivar and Aliera; and a child might very well call a family friend "Uncle" in any case. Verra doesn't treat Vlad like a son; she would have had to be married to Vlad's father, which from Vlad's description of him sounds like an unappealing prospect (and "Noish-pa as Vlad's REAL dad" is prima facie ridiculous); she calls Vlad by his species-name, "Easterner." Aliera knows about her relationship with Verra, so you have to postulate some reason why Verra would conceal her relationship with Vlad. Search the list archives. I'm positive that we've discussed this recently. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 17:43:36 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:43:36 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> rone wrote: >What makes you say this? There's only proof that Vlad is talking to >the box. We also know that Steven Brust is translating Paarfi's books. > > Well, there's also the theory that Devera acts as a courier. But if we're playing along with the idea that Brust is only recording these stories as related by someone else, then he has to get the stories from SOMEWHERE. It's true that the "Silver Box" delivery method is the only means that has been explicitly noted in the books, it's a reasonably safe assumption to make that Brust "The Interviewer" might use this method to gather the Paarfi stories and BP via the same method. To the left, of course, seeing as how Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) it's at least possible that Brust may have simply picked up a copy of Paarfi's works while he was there and simply translated them. (However, the interview with Paarfi at the end of FHYA indicates that Paarfi is aware that these books are being published outside of Dragaera in a different format.) Goodness knows where Brust "The Translator" got the money to pay Paarfi for the right to do this... Perhaps it's because he knows better than to play a seven duece off-suit? ;-) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 3 17:47:37 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on > occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) Doesn't follow. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 18:32:46 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:32:46 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >>Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on >>occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) >> >> > >Doesn't follow. > > Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane of existance somewhere?) Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 3 20:35:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > > > >>Brust "The Interviewer" must have traveled to Dragaera on at least on > >>occasion (Vlad claims to have met the man who gave him the magic box) > >> > >> > > > >Doesn't follow. > > > > > Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has > been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane > of existance somewhere?) > > Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. No, none of the above follows. A simple scenario: Dragaeran X creates a box that communicates with SKZB. X teaches him the language via the box. X gives the box to Vlad. Vlad has never met SKZB. Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the SKZB-Paarfi interview. Paarfi has met the person who gives him the box, but has never physically met SKZB. From rone at ennui.org Tue Jan 3 20:44:26 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:44:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> Jon Lincicum writes: Goodness knows where Brust "The Translator" got the money to pay Paarfi for the right to do this... Perhaps it's because he knows better than to play a seven duece off-suit? ;-) No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully himself with vulgar haggling. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 21:13:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:13:34 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >>Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has >>been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane >>of existance somewhere?) >> >>Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. >> >> > > >No, none of the above follows. > >A simple scenario: Dragaeran X creates a box that communicates with SKZB. >X teaches him the language via the box. X gives the box to Vlad. Vlad >has never met SKZB. Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the >SKZB-Paarfi interview. Paarfi has met the person who gives him the >box, but has never physically met SKZB. > > Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an intermediary? Possible. However, this begs the obvious question; who could serve in such a capacity? And how did Brust get into contact with HIM? (Or his intermediary, or however many levels of intermediate negotiators you'd like to add.) Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview; which was clearly carried out between Brust and Paarfi directly, although I grant it is certainly less clear in this case whether the two are face-to-face, or communicating through some other means. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 3 21:14:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:14:37 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43BB59BD.5020305@comcast.net> rone wrote: >Jon Lincicum writes: > Goodness knows where Brust "The Translator" got the money to pay Paarfi > for the right to do this... Perhaps it's because he knows better than to > play a seven duece off-suit? ;-) > >No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully >himself with vulgar haggling. > > Yes, however, the money did have to come from somewhere, whoever it was who actually handled the unpleasant details. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 00:02:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:02:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >A simple scenario: Dragaeran X creates a box that communicates with SKZB. > >X teaches him the language via the box. X gives the box to Vlad. Vlad > >has never met SKZB. Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the > >SKZB-Paarfi interview. Paarfi has met the person who gives him the > >box, but has never physically met SKZB. > > > > > Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to > talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an > intermediary? I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be an intermediary. > Possible. I.e., your earlier assertion was entirely wrong. > However, this begs the obvious question No, it doesn't. Perhaps Mark will explain. > who could serve in such a capacity? And how did Brust get into contact > with HIM? (Or his intermediary, or however many levels of intermediate > negotiators you'd like to add.) You've just discovered that we don't know all the details of how the Texts got transmitted, in case they did. > Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview That's incorrect. From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 01:17:10 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 04:17:10 -0500 Subject: Vlad's Mother Speculation In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601031635j39f4233akf2ecebabe1a469f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060103225034.51850.qmail@web60111.mail.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0601031635j39f4233akf2ecebabe1a469f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps she's trying not to spoil him? Wasn't it mentioned in Issola, when Sethra is talking to Teldra, that Vlad has been 'trained'? Maybe Vlad is part divine and Verra simply wishes to conceal from him that they're related, so not to get him all proud of himself or expect help from her and develop survival skills Aliera doesn't have. Also, remember Vlad's father always changed his description of Vlad's mother and how she died/left. Verra's a chaotic god-either he could be remembering what happened but there were several encounters, or possibly Verra messed with his memories as such not to give it away. This also may explain Vlad's father's bitterness towards Eastern things and wanting to be accepted as a Dragaeran, or better- he's been the consort of a goddess. And I kind of read a sullen resentment of Vlad in him-perhaps because he's part divine? On 1/3/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 1/3/06, Scott Kreitzer wrote: > > I know I posted this before, but I didn't see any comments on this. > > > > Since Devera keeps calling Vlad "Uncle Vlad", isn't it possible that > Verra is Vlad's mother? > > Anything's *possible*. Previous discussions of this topic have left me > unconvinced. There's not enough positive evidence in its favor, and > significant contradictions involved. Devera calls Morrolan "Uncle > 'Rolan" as well; she may very well know about the spiritual connection > between Dolivar and Aliera; and a child might very well call a family > friend "Uncle" in any case. Verra doesn't treat Vlad like a son; she > would have had to be married to Vlad's father, which from Vlad's > description of him sounds like an unappealing prospect (and "Noish-pa > as Vlad's REAL dad" is prima facie ridiculous); she calls Vlad by his > species-name, "Easterner." Aliera knows about her relationship with > Verra, so you have to postulate some reason why Verra would conceal > her relationship with Vlad. > > Search the list archives. I'm positive that we've discussed this recently. > > Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jan 4 02:33:31 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:33:31 +0100 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window Message-ID: I don't know if this has come up yet on the list, but I'm fairly sure that it hasn't been mentioned for the last year, at least. In the eighth Sandman comic, Worlds' End, there's a man by the window in page 147 that looks exactly like someone we know. Has anyone else noted this cameo? Anyone who hasn't read Neil Gaiman's excellent Sandman comic should. :) From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:22:20 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:22:20 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBDFC.3010608@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >It's true that the "Silver Box" delivery method is the only means that >has been explicitly noted in the books, it's a reasonably safe >assumption to make that Brust "The Interviewer" might use this method to >gather the Paarfi stories and BP via the same method. > > We don't know who owns the silver box. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:24:08 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:24:08 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBE68.10709@brazee.net> >Well, I suppose the other alternative is that Vlad (and Paarfi both) has >been to OUR world. (Or maybe they both met on some other neutral plane >of existance somewhere?) > >Or else the "meeting" was far more metaphorical than Vlad seems to let on. > > > Or somebody else gave him the magic box. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:27:14 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:27:14 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBF22.3090909@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >However, this begs the obvious question; who could serve in such a >capacity? And how did Brust get into contact with HIM? (Or his >intermediary, or however many levels of intermediate negotiators you'd >like to add.) > > No it doesn't. My point is that we should not treat assumptions as fact. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 04:28:16 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 05:28:16 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BB59BD.5020305@comcast.net> References: <20060104044426.CFAAC6848B@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB59BD.5020305@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBBF60.1000000@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >>No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully >>himself with vulgar haggling. >> >> >> >> >Yes, however, the money did have to come from somewhere, whoever it was >who actually handled the unpleasant details. > > I really don't see Paarfi as unwilling to go commercial. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 07:13:28 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 07:13:28 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >>Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to >>talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an >>intermediary? >> >> > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be >an intermediary. > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to face, and there was no intermediary involved? >>Possible. >> >> > >I.e., your earlier assertion was entirely wrong. > > Not at all. As you so admirably stated earlier, we *don't know*. If I say that it seems likely that Brust "The Interviewer" has gone to Dragaera personally at some point, and then you say, "AHA! you're wrong because it isn't *absolutely certain* that he did", you haven't really even addressed my original point. Rather, you've inferred the supposition that I was insisting that my theory be true, which was not the case at all. >> However, this begs the obvious question > > > >No, it doesn't. Perhaps Mark will explain. > > It would be nice if someone would. It is somewhat wearying to try to formulate a discussion, and have your counterpart simply gainsay everything without bothering to explain his position. As some admirable python once said; "That's not an argument, it's a simple contradiction!" >>Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview >> >> > >That's incorrect. > > As you do here. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 09:45:31 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:45:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >>Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to > >>talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an > >>intermediary? > >> > >> > > > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB > >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be > >an intermediary. > > > > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have > an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to > face, and there was no intermediary involved? Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your sentence above is confused. > If I say that it seems likely that Brust "The Interviewer" has gone to > Dragaera personally at some point You mischaracterize your own argument. > and then you say, "AHA! you're wrong > because it isn't *absolutely certain* that he did", you haven't really > even addressed my original point. Ignoring your original statement, you don't understand how to show something is likely, or how to dispute such an argument. If you have any evidence that SKZB communicates with Vlad, or that Vlad has any knowledge of SKZB, those would be the sorts of thing you'd want to present. You'd also want to have thought about counterexamples and have a general idea why their general class is unlikely vs your claim. > >> However, this begs the obvious question > > > > > > > >No, it doesn't. Perhaps Mark will explain. > > > > > It would be nice if someone would. It is somewhat wearying to try to > formulate a discussion, and have your counterpart simply gainsay > everything without bothering to explain his position. This point was a bit humorous - look up "begging the question", e.g. in wikipedia. > >>Furthermore, this scenario does NOT address the Paarfi interview > >> > >> > > > >That's incorrect. > > > > > As you do here. The extremely simple scenario I gave explicitly addressed the Paarfi interview. You don't really seem to be paying attention here. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 4 12:28:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:28:18 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/04/06 09:45 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: The Magic Box On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your >sentence above is confused. My pardon, that sentence was indeed poorly phrased. On re-reading that statement, I realize that I should have said: "Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to get Brust theses stories if they never met face to face, and there was no intermediary involved?" Just so we can agree on terms, here is what Merriam-Webster has to say about an intermediary: Intermediary : acting as a mediator In layman's terms, I would take this to mean: A person or agency that allows for indirect communication between two parties. If you have an alternate definition you would like to use, I'm open to it, just let me know what it is so I can modify my wording as appropriate to express myself clearly to you. >> If I say that it seems likely that Brust "The Interviewer" has gone to >> Dragaera personally at some point > >You mischaracterize your own argument. It seems likely that I phrased the original statement more strongly than was intended. (The use of the word "Must" in my original statement appears to be the principal verb in question.) I cheerfully withdraw this verb if this is indeed your objection. As this particular statement was not the primary thrust of my original point, it makes little difference to me. >If you have any evidence that SKZB communicates with Vlad, or that Vlad >has any knowledge of SKZB, those would be the sorts of thing you'd want >to present. You'd also want to have thought about counterexamples and >have a general idea why their general class is unlikely vs your claim. Evidence? Well, this whole conversation started from the postulate that Brust DID receive the texts from the world of Dragaera somehow, rather than creating them on his own. As this point was my postulate, it doesn't require its own evidence, and places the entire conversation in the realm of speculation. If you wish to dispute the truth of this postulation, I won't argue with you, as I personally believe that Brust simply made up the stories. (Although I realize it borders on heresy to say such things here... ;-) ) >> It would be nice if someone would. It is somewhat wearying to try to >> formulate a discussion, and have your counterpart simply gainsay >> everything without bothering to explain his position. > >This point was a bit humorous - look up "begging the question", e.g. >in wikipedia. Ah! Finally, an explanation. Well, I would invite you to see the above statement about the initial postulate of the argument. This is speculation; it is not meant to prove a point, therefore, it cannot be considered a fallacious argument, since I don't really claim any of it is true. >The extremely simple scenario I gave explicitly addressed the Paarfi >interview. You don't really seem to be paying attention here. Well, you *mention* the Paarfi interview, it's true, though you don't really *address* it, per se. The part that is unclear to me is: "Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading to the SKZB-Paarfi interview." Leads how? How does Vlad giving the box to Sethra set up an interview with Brust? Where is the connection to SKZB here at all? And how is this not simply a series of intermediary agents in between Vlad and SKZB? (Or rather, bewteen Paarfi and SKZB?) Further, since the Paarfi interview seems to show that Paarfi is directly observing shrugs, nods, and other gestures made by Brust during the interview, I would say that it is at least essential that the two can see each other (whether this is via televsion, some sorcerous equivilent to television, or an actual face-to-face interview). However, I would suggest that Occam's Razor would make the face-to-face meeting the more likely of these possibilities. Really, as I am relatively new to the discussion list, and this seems to be a well-trampled topic, it might help me more if you either a) reference previous mailing posts discussing the topics or b) state the nature of your objections a little more verbosely up front, since I am otherwise forced to guess at which part of my argument you find to be fallacious, and your rationale for thinking so. This makes it very difficult to respond to your points. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:45:07 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:45:07 -0800 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > I don't know if this has come up yet on the list, but I'm fairly sure that > it hasn't been mentioned for the last year, at least. > In the eighth Sandman comic, Worlds' End, there's a man by the window in > page 147 that looks exactly like someone we know. Has anyone else noted this > cameo? Indeed, and it looks like you missed a couple of other cameos: ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.51 ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.56 ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.73 Many other annotations and observations here: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~wald/sandman-index.html > Anyone who hasn't read Neil Gaiman's excellent Sandman comic should. :) > I nearly think that the esteemed Steven Brust would entirely agree with this sentiment. Something that I keep forgetting to add to the Meta: sections of the Wikicity entries is that "G'mon, Lord of Dreams" and "Ilen, a Magian" are both references to Steven's friend Neil Gaiman. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:45:35 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:45:35 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB > > >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be > > >an intermediary. > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have > > an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to > > face, and there was no intermediary involved? > > Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your > sentence above is confused. I don't really want to involve myself in a linguistic controversy, but I can only understand your point if you're using a very narrow definition of "intermediary." Are you just being pedantic, or are you postulating e.g. that the "old fool" could have been an independent agent who resold the material to Brust the Translator? One definition from the OED: "Acting or of the nature of action between two persons, parties, etc.; serving as a means of interaction; mediatory." If the information gets from Vlad to Brust through the old fool, that definitely makes him intermediary. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:52:13 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:52:13 +0100 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Indeed, and it looks like you missed a couple of other cameos: > >ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.51 > That ftp seems to be down... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:56:01 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:56:01 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > This point was a bit humorous - look up "begging the question", e.g. > in wikipedia. > Ah, prescription versus description. An ancient argument. I am in favor of dropping the phrase entirely, since it is on the one hand misused, and on the other, misunderstood. Say "X raises the question" for the common usage, and "your argument assumes its own conclusions" for the "proper" usage. But I guess that's my own prescriptivism trying to deal with the problem by annihilating it. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:09:06 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:09:06 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/1/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > > >Kragar is the sidekick, for as long as Vlad is a boss in the Organization, > >as well as having resources. I don't know that Vlad HAD the resources to > >look into K's past, before K was working for him. That's the kind of work > >that he DELEGATES to K. > > > > > Yes, certainly that's the kind of work that Vlad delegated to > Kragar--AFTER he decided to let Kragar be his chief lieutenant. > > But given Vlad's penchant for careful preparation in regards to setting > up an assassination (done in the early days BEFORE Kragar was working > for him), it seems unusual that he wouldn't take the time to do the same > sort of work up on Kragar--detective story conventions aside. I dunno - I don't think Vlad became careful until after making a few mistakes (like his first hit, where he used Loiosh explicitly, and had to clear out of town for a while). He did start out pretty young, after all. He even described himself as being like a young Dzur, brash and reckless. Certainly, killing his own boss in order to advance was pretty brash and reckless. I think it likely that Kragar must have done something that demonstrated to Vlad that he (Kragar) was loyal above and beyond the usual sort of Jhereg loyalty. One of my pararectal notions is that it was Kragar who told Vlad how a less-than-thorough interrogation under the Orb could be... sidestepped, as it were. And that Kragar might have helped ensure that less-than-thorough interrogation by passing a few well-aimed bribes from Vlad to the Jhereg interrogators Although perhaps that may have been Kiera, now that I think about it. > As to not having the resources to look into Kragar's past--well, there > are two ways to look at that. > #1. Certainly Vlad had some good friends at that point (He hadn't met > Morrolan or Sethra yet, but he had met /Kiera/, and Nielar was a close > associate (who had employed Kragar himself (partnering him with Vlad) > prior to that). Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:17:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:17:56 -0800 Subject: Sandman, the man by the window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >Indeed, and it looks like you missed a couple of other cameos: > > > >ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.51 > > > That ftp seems to be down... > Works just fine for me. *shrug* But there's a mirror of most of those annotations here: http://www.stahl.bau.tu-bs.de/~hildeb/sandman/annotations/ From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:21:22 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:21:22 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601041321y7cdb885bu52156ef5770bcdb8@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I think it likely that Kragar must have done something that > demonstrated to Vlad that he (Kragar) was loyal above and beyond the > usual sort of Jhereg loyalty. [snip] > Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could > trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or > not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). As long as we're speculating, it's not impossible that Vlad *knows* Kragar's true background (if there is one) and simply keeps mum about it. The closest he comes to revealing knowledge of Kiera's background is the comment in Issola about "I was aiming for Third Floor Relic," which is very oblique. Even Kiera has to question him quite pointedly to get him to admit to knowing. All I'm saying is that even if Vlad did know Kragar's background there's no particular way we the readers could know about it, that I can think of. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 4 13:28:21 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:28:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060104212821.6BEAD685F7@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: I guess that's my own prescriptivism trying to deal with the problem by annihilating it. I'm starting to lean this way as well. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 4 13:29:19 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BBBF60.1000000@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060104212919.DA234685F8@boredom.ennui.org> Howard Brazee writes: Jon Lincicum wrote: >rone wrote: >>No, no, that's all handled by the publishers. Paarfi wouldn't sully >>himself with vulgar haggling. >Yes, however, the money did have to come from somewhere, whoever it was >who actually handled the unpleasant details. I really don't see Paarfi as unwilling to go commercial. I don't think he's unwilling to go commercial, either. Then again, there is no mention of Paarfi hiring an agent... hmmmm. Yes, i'm contradicting myself. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 13:29:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:29:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >I'm pointing out one of various simple scenarios consistent with SKZB > > > >being bound to here/now. Incidentally, it is not necessary that X be > > > >an intermediary. > > > > Perhaps you would care to explain how Vlad could have arranged to have > > > an "old fool" pay him money to tell stories if they never met face to > > > face, and there was no intermediary involved? > > > > Look up "intermediary", then reread the scenario. Incidentally, your > > sentence above is confused. > > I don't really want to involve myself in a linguistic controversy, but > I can only understand your point if you're using a very narrow > definition of "intermediary." Are you just being pedantic, or are you > postulating e.g. that the "old fool" could have been an independent > agent who resold the material to Brust the Translator? > > One definition from the OED: "Acting or of the nature of action > between two persons, parties, etc.; serving as a means of interaction; > mediatory." If the information gets from Vlad to Brust through the old > fool, that definitely makes him intermediary. Hmm, I don't see the necessity. X finds a box. X gets a vision that Vlad should talk into the box. SKZB happens to be at the other end. One day the box starts talking to him in Hungarian with some funny words thrown in. Is X an intermediary here? What about Y, who sent the vision? To be pedantic: isn't an intermediary something like a map defined on the set (A_0, A_1, ..., B_0, B_1, ...) indexed by all sentences, with B' = i_A(B) and A' = i_B(A)? To me, Vlad's statement that he's convinced nothing he tells the box will get back to him indicates a one-way communication (though perhaps someone as talented as Paarfi can make it work in two directions, or can copy the box to make a reversed version, or ...) Do we have any sense that Vlad knows what's on the other end of the box? That X does? That X is acting on either's behalf? What if X has arranged for SKZB to be paid - that makes him a boss, not an intermediary, doesn't it? Anyway, I doubt anything useful can be adduced from this discussion, except that SKZB likes on occasion to make gestures at explanations so cursory that they mock the expectation of consistency. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 13:38:36 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:38:36 -0700 Subject: Begging the question In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BC405C.1050409@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I am in favor of dropping the phrase entirely, since it is on the one >hand misused, and on the other, misunderstood. Say "X raises the >question" for the common usage, and "your argument assumes its own >conclusions" for the "proper" usage. > > > But that would be communicating clearly! From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 13:42:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:42:21 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BC413D.9050705@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> As to not having the resources to look into Kragar's past--well, there >> are two ways to look at that. >> #1. Certainly Vlad had some good friends at that point (He hadn't met >> Morrolan or Sethra yet, but he had met /Kiera/, and Nielar was a close >> associate (who had employed Kragar himself (partnering him with Vlad) >> prior to that). > >Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could >trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or >not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). > > My question - which will probably someday be answered - is: When did the powers decide that Vlad would be a useful tool? Clues indicate that it could have been early - possibly before his birth. Maybe there was a period when they were unaware of him, but at least one of his early acquaintances isn't known for overlooking things. And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? With these questions in mind - the question of Kragar has some interesting directions available. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 4 13:45:58 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:45:58 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: <20060104212821.6BEAD685F7@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "rone" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > Davdi Silverrock writes: > I guess that's my own prescriptivism trying to deal with the > problem by annihilating it. > > I'm starting to lean this way as well. > > rone > -- > No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. > - Roy S. Rapoport I have always been that way, and my time in the military only enhanced that trait. Jeff "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of high explosive" From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 4 13:46:14 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:46:14 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB2848.5030202@comcast.net> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43BC4226.30507@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >Hmm, I don't see the necessity. X finds a box. X gets a vision that >Vlad should talk into the box. SKZB happens to be at the other end. >One day the box starts talking to him in Hungarian with some funny words >thrown in. Is X an intermediary here? What about Y, who sent the vision? > > He has told the box stuff that a careful assassin wouldn't tell the world, so he must have some assurance or possibly enforced direction to convince him to do so. Now that doesn't mean he can't have enough control so that he doesn't betray a friend's secrets - but he certainly had revealed his own secrets - to us. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 4 14:03:13 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of high explosive" Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to meet this criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are simply insoluble. Casey From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:18:19 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:18:19 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601041418x4994f165qdab626d9824e0ca0@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > One definition from the OED: "Acting or of the nature of action > > between two persons, parties, etc.; serving as a means of interaction; > > mediatory." If the information gets from Vlad to Brust through the old > > fool, that definitely makes him intermediary. > > Hmm, I don't see the necessity. X finds a box. X gets a vision that > Vlad should talk into the box. SKZB happens to be at the other end. > One day the box starts talking to him in Hungarian with some funny words > thrown in. Is X an intermediary here? What about Y, who sent the vision? By the definition above, yes, X and Y are both intermediaries. However, if this is what you had in mind (or the scenerio where "old fool" is Brust's boss instead of some kind of agent) then at least you weren't just being pedantic, which is what I was puzzled by. > To be pedantic: isn't an intermediary something like a map defined on > the set (A_0, A_1, ..., B_0, B_1, ...) indexed by all sentences, with > B' = i_A(B) and A' = i_B(A)? I don't recognize your notation but I get the sense. I don't recognize the provenance of your definition, but it's probably an acceptable definition for many purposes. I'm defending the original statement 'Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money to talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it was an intermediary?' from (possible) nit-picking. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:23:47 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:23:47 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of > high explosive" > > Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to meet this > criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are simply > insoluble. > I believe that there are definitions of "solve" for which the maxim quoted is always correct, although they are more usually used by chemists and such. (examining the OED, and noting the following:) [begin cite] {dag}1. trans. To loosen; to break. Obs. {dag}2. a. To unbind, untie. Obs. 5. To dissolve, put an end to, settle. 6. To dissolve; to melt. Hence solved ppl. a.; {sm}solving vbl. n. and ppl. a. [end cite] Although captious interpretation of the usages interpretable as meaning physical destruction might well lead to situations where students of mathematics being told to "solve for x" results in the entire school burning down and/or blowing up. Moral: Do not allow students access to dictionaries and/or volatile chemicals. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 14:26:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601041418x4994f165qdab626d9824e0ca0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060103231431.1764068480@boredom.ennui.org> <43BB33CE.60406@comcast.net> <43BB597E.5050505@comcast.net> <43BBE618.8050809@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041245i24a1df0fkb6129f092ab86bb4@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601041418x4994f165qdab626d9824e0ca0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > To be pedantic: isn't an intermediary something like a map defined on > > the set (A_0, A_1, ..., B_0, B_1, ...) indexed by all sentences, with > > B' = i_A(B) and A' = i_B(A)? > > I don't recognize your notation but I get the sense. I don't recognize > the provenance of your definition, but it's probably an acceptable > definition for many purposes. The notation above is pararectal, ditto the definition. > I'm defending the original statement > 'Ah. I see, you're contending that the "old fool" who gave Vlad money > to talk into the box was not actually Brust himself, but rather, it > was an intermediary?' from (possible) nit-picking. I think the statement in question presumes "SKZB is paying Vlad directly or indirectly", which is unsupported by data. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 4 15:53:26 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:53:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Magic Box Message-ID: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >Sent: Jan 4, 2006 3:28 PM >To: Philip Hart >Cc: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List >Subject: Re: The Magic Box > The part that is unclear to me is: "Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading > to the SKZB-Paarfi interview." > > Leads how? How does Vlad giving the box to Sethra set up an interview with > Brust? Where is the connection to SKZB here at all? And how is this not > simply a series of intermediary agents in between Vlad and SKZB? (Or > rather, bewteen Paarfi and SKZB?) Well, Paarfi and SKZB have had an interview, so there's a connection between Paarfi and SKZB. And Philip believes that Paarfi and Sethra are nearly the same person, so there's the connection between Sethra and SKZB; this is part of the communication problem here, since you've probably not seen too many references to Paarfi being ~= to Sethra, and it should also clarify instances when Philip refers to Paarfi as talented, etc. (Philip's theory is fairly amusing; once I get back to Massachusetts tomorrow, I can search for the thread/posts and send them or a link to them to you). Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 4 16:46:11 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:46:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <20060105004611.0D385685FF@boredom.ennui.org> Casey Rousseau writes: "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of high explosive" Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to meet this criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are simply insoluble. I would argue that these problems are simply awaiting for the proper, correct application of high explosives to be found. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 4 17:29:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:29:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, or anyway haven't yet. I think I only see dragaera-bounces in Jon's comments, btw. Reply to Jose follows. On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Jose Marquez wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > >Sent: Jan 4, 2006 3:28 PM > >To: Philip Hart > >Cc: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List > >Subject: Re: The Magic Box > > > The part that is unclear to me is: "Vlad gives the box to Sethra, leading > > to the SKZB-Paarfi interview." > > > > Leads how? How does Vlad giving the box to Sethra set up an interview with > > Brust? Where is the connection to SKZB here at all? And how is this not > > simply a series of intermediary agents in between Vlad and SKZB? (Or > > rather, bewteen Paarfi and SKZB?) > > Well, Paarfi and SKZB have had an interview, so there's a connection > between Paarfi and SKZB. And Philip believes that Paarfi and Sethra are > nearly the same person, so there's the connection between Sethra and > SKZB; this is part of the communication problem here, since you've > probably not seen too many references to Paarfi being ~= to Sethra, and If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up frequently. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:49:47 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:49:47 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601041321y7cdb885bu52156ef5770bcdb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601041321y7cdb885bu52156ef5770bcdb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43BC7B3B.60404@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >As long as we're speculating, it's not impossible that Vlad *knows* >Kragar's true background (if there is one) and simply keeps mum about >it. The closest he comes to revealing knowledge of Kiera's background >is the comment in Issola about "I was aiming for Third Floor Relic," >which is very oblique. Even Kiera has to question him quite pointedly >to get him to admit to knowing. All I'm saying is that even if Vlad >did know Kragar's background there's no particular way we the readers >could know about it, that I can think of. > > I believe you have stated my initial point admirably. Vlad plays his cards very close to the vest. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:52:17 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:52:17 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060104212919.DA234685F8@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060104212919.DA234685F8@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43BC7BD1.1020105@comcast.net> rone wrote: >I don't think he's unwilling to go commercial, either. Then again, >there is no mention of Paarfi hiring an agent... hmmmm. Yes, i'm >contradicting myself. > > Do Dragaerans have agents? I mean, we know that some musicians get gigs arranged by (for lack of a better term) "talent-agencies" in Adrilankha (Tomas, Ramon, et al.) But I don't know that I've seen the concept of a *personal* business agent presented in any of the books. Paarfi has a *publisher*, to be sure, but an agent may be a foreign concept to a Dragaeran. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:55:17 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:55:17 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <43BC413D.9050705@brazee.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC413D.9050705@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BC7C85.8010603@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > My question - which will probably someday be answered - is: When did > the powers decide that Vlad would be a useful tool? Clues indicate > that it could have been early - possibly before his birth. Maybe > there was a period when they were unaware of him, but at least one of > his early acquaintances isn't known for overlooking things. > > And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? > > With these questions in mind - the question of Kragar has some > interesting directions available. Well, if Verra really was his mother, I'd have to say it probably started before he was born. ;-) If not, then, well, it probably was the moment that they realized that he would someday hold Godslayer.... Which (again) may have been before he was born,.at the time he came into possesion of Spellbreaker, or possibly when he ventured to the Paths of the Dead. How much foresight into the future do the gods of Dragaera have, anyway? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 18:00:51 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:00:51 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BC7DD3.5020003@comcast.net> Jose Marquez wrote: >Well, Paarfi and SKZB have had an interview, so there's a connection between Paarfi and SKZB. And Philip believes that Paarfi and Sethra are nearly the same person, so there's the connection between Sethra and SKZB; this is part of the communication problem here, since you've probably not seen too many references to Paarfi being ~= to Sethra, and it should also clarify instances when Philip refers to Paarfi as talented, etc. (Philip's theory is fairly amusing; once I get back to Massachusetts tomorrow, I can search for the thread/posts and send them or a link to them to you). > >Jose > > That would be very helpful, and much appreciated. I don't wish to generate too much discussion that is 100% repetition of what has come before. At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 4 17:48:31 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:48:31 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/1/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >>Yes, certainly that's the kind of work that Vlad delegated to >>Kragar--AFTER he decided to let Kragar be his chief lieutenant. >> >>But given Vlad's penchant for careful preparation in regards to setting >>up an assassination (done in the early days BEFORE Kragar was working >>for him), it seems unusual that he wouldn't take the time to do the same >>sort of work up on Kragar--detective story conventions aside. >> >> > >I dunno - I don't think Vlad became careful until after making a few >mistakes (like his first hit, where he used Loiosh explicitly, and had >to clear out of town for a while). He did start out pretty young, >after all. He even described himself as being like a young Dzur, >brash and reckless. Certainly, killing his own boss in order to >advance was pretty brash and reckless. > > > [cite] It's hard for me to pin down the point at which I stopped considering myself to be someone's enforcer who sometimes did "work" and started considering myself a freelance assassin...Certainly those around me began to think of me that way before it occurred to me, but I don't think my own thinking changed until I had developed professional habits and a good approach to the job. Once again, it's unclear just when this occurred, but I was certainly functioning like a professional by the time I finished my seventh job--assassinating a little turd named Raiet. [/cite] This quote from Taltos seems to say that Vlad had developed his professional habits BEFORE taking on his own area... and this is confirmed later when Vlad talks about his fact-checking the information he was given by Feet about Raiet. No mention of Kragar throughout this section, and it was before Vlad had his own area, so I would say it appears he had pretty good habits established by then. >I think it likely that Kragar must have done something that >demonstrated to Vlad that he (Kragar) was loyal above and beyond the >usual sort of Jhereg loyalty. > > I do not dispute that there is ample space in what we don't know about Vlad to provide the possibility that Kragar performed some great action, or series of actions that instlled undying trust by Vlad... But if this is the case it would seem somewhat odd to me that he's never mentioned it when talking about Kragar. >One of my pararectal notions is that it was Kragar who told Vlad how a >less-than-thorough interrogation under the Orb could be... >sidestepped, as it were. And that Kragar might have helped ensure >that less-than-thorough interrogation by passing a few well-aimed >bribes from Vlad to the Jhereg interrogators > >Although perhaps that may have been Kiera, now that I think about it. > > Interesting concept. This strikes me as the kind of thing Vlad might even be clever enouigh to come up with on his own, also. >Good point. Still, Kiera might well have told Vlad that he could >trust Kragar, without necessarily divulging Kragar's background (or >not divulging his *true* background; see Speculation:Kragar). > > > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 22:00:36 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 23:00:36 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? I certainly do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't entirely understand. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 22:06:08 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 23:06:08 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 00:40:10 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:40:10 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, > or anyway haven't yet. Well, it hit the mailing list archives. http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2006q1/001137.html I am not sure that the powers-that-be can help in this regard, given that he sent the e-mail directly to you as well as to the list. If your mail server at slac.stanford.edu is dropping stuff on the floor, you can hardly expect the dragaera list administrators to know anything about it, or be able to do anything about it. > I think I only see dragaera-bounces in Jon's comments, btw. This might have something to do with the mail agent he's using at his stream.com account. I note that the "Sender:" header for the list is from "dragaera-bounces"; if he uses "Reply All", and it responds by CC-ing what's in the "Sender" header (as well as what's in the "From:" and "To:" headers), well, I think that would explain it. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 01:05:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:05:58 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he > > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) > > The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his > location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I > can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except > for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does > he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? Amazon "search inside" (of /The Book of Taltos/, containing /Taltos/ and /Phoenix/) says, near the end (indeed, last reference to her in the book): "Oh, and Kragar, say good-bye to Kiera the Thief for me. Tell her I still owe her. On the other hand, I expect she can find me when she wants to." However, I see that you've forgotten that /Tatlos/ is also filled with references to Kiera. Including that she obtained burglary tools for Vlad and trained him in their use. > I certainly do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't > entirely understand. > Kiera got him started in the Organization. She's given him a lot of time and support, starting when he was very very young, and I don't think she's really asked for a whole lot in return. Kinda like his grandfather has, now that I think of it. And I'm pretty sure she's never overtly lied to him, although I think she's lied indirectly by implication (I'm thinking of her "promise" to revenge him if Morrolan kills him). Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her background. And I think a similar argument could be made about why Vlad might trust Kragar: When they started out, Vlad didn't know much about researching backgrounds, but while he worked with Kragar, Kragar proved himself to be reliable (and unambitious). Once Vlad moved up in the Organization, I think he could well have continued to think "Kragar is reliable (and unambitious)", and not felt any need to go poking into Kragar's deep background. On the other hand, it also works if Vlad did do the research at one point, and stopped when he hit the first layer of cover story (assuming that there is indeed a cover story). Or maybe he dug until he felt satisfied that he knew everything he needed to know. I guess my point is that it can be made to work any of the above ways because people aren't 100% consistent. Vlad certainly isn't. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 01:13:45 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:13:45 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over > the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that > there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up > frequently. Actually, there is not. Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it up, presenting every argument in its favor. If you post it to the list, I (or someone) will add it to Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood. Or you could do it yourself, if you wanted to: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/index.php?title=Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood&action=edit From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jan 5 04:57:33 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:57:33 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <196E293A-F541-4252-B1CC-CDA8C6029807@mac.com> On Jan 4, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct > application of > high explosive" > > Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to > meet this > criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are > simply > insoluble. The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 06:52:14 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:52:14 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> <196E293A-F541-4252-B1CC-CDA8C6029807@mac.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Gorelick" To: "Casey Rousseau" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:57 AM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > > On Jan 4, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > > > > > "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the correct > > application of > > high explosive" > > > > Well, there are, it's just that the class of problems that fail to > > meet this > > criteria is very nearly the same as the class of problems which are > > simply > > insoluble. > > The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? > Solutions: 1. Use explosives to make a series of moats and canals to redirect the water. 2. Set of a large thermo nuclear device in the middle of the gulf. The vaporization of the water will drop the water level until the levees are the correct height. 3. When the politicians deny the funding needed to improve the levees, Place a small amount of plastic explosive under the seat of their car. Detonate when said politician enters the car. Repeat as needed, until one gets the point. Jeff -Wondering why the FBI is suddenly taking so much interest in him. . . . From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 06:59:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:59:56 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 12:40 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: The Magic Box >> I think I only see dragaera-bounces in Jon's comments, btw. > >This might have something to do with the mail agent he's using at his >stream.com account. I note that the "Sender:" header for the list is >from "dragaera-bounces"; if he uses "Reply All", and it responds by >CC-ing what's in the "Sender" header (as well as what's in the "From:" >and "To:" headers), well, I think that would explain it. I can confirm at least this much. My work proxy seems to block about every 10th message from the list, and the rest of the time I get the "bounces" address in the recipients (indicating, I think, that the server has had to make two or more attempts to deliver the message). I try to remember to remove the "bounces" address when I reply (I''ve left it in this time for demonstration purposes) but I don't always think of it. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060105/42d53152/attachment-0001.html From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 07:14:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:14:54 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? > > > > Solutions: > 3. When the politicians deny the funding needed to improve the levees, Place > a small amount of plastic explosive under the seat of their car. Detonate > when said politician enters the car. Repeat as needed, until one gets the > point. You are proceeding from the flawed premise that politicians are capable of getting the point of something based on events happening in the real world. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 07:23:00 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:23:00 -0700 Subject: The Magic Box References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jeff G." Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Re: The Magic Box > > > > > > The levees in New Orleans are not strong or deep enough? > > > > > > > Solutions: > > > > > 3. When the politicians deny the funding needed to improve the levees, > Place > > a small amount of plastic explosive under the seat of their car. > Detonate > > when said politician enters the car. Repeat as needed, until one gets > the > > point. > > You are proceeding from the flawed premise that politicians are capable of > getting the point of something based on events happening in the real > world. > > Majikjon Conversely, you could say it is a selective breeding program for politicians, with selectors for enhanced awareness of reality. The problem is, so many of them reproduce before they become politicians, making it a long term process. Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 08:39:38 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:39:38 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson wrote on 01/04/2006 10:06:08 PM: > On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way > > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me > > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > > This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does > Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge > of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? > > Max I could only say it's for the reasons she gives at the end of Orca, in response to Vlad's question of "Why Kiera? Or rather, Sethra, why Kiera?" I somehow doubt it's the lawbreaking aspect. She's had plenty of opportunities to do that as Sethra. Having friendships certainly isn't a problem for Sethra, either (see Morrolan, Aliera, StY (pre-Yendi), Tazendra, and most notably Tukko). I think challenge is the key. When you've lived 200,000+ years and are a neigh-unto invincible sorceress and general who can defeat any army on the battlefield, and contemptuously annihilate the greatest Dzur Heroes who come charging up your mountain, you probably are looking for ways to relieve your ennui. Being Kiera, and limiting herself to that persona, gives her challenges in ways she probably hasn't experienced as Sethra for the better part of the life of the Empire. (I'm still dying to know what Sethra was like in the really early days of the Empire. Was she always this badass? Or did she start out as a naieve little sister to some important Dragonlord who helped found the Empire?) BTW: Did Sethra say that Kiera never killed people at all? Or just that she wouldn't kill people in order to keep her true identity a secret? I forget the exact phrasing she used... (Which could be important, considering the first time Vlad met her (in /Taltos/) she was participating in an assassination...) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 5 09:00:54 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:00:54 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BC7DD3.5020003@comcast.net> Message-ID: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being > in any way > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just > doesn't strike me > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > > Majikjon Prefaces, forwards, etc... are, I believe, normally commissioned by publishers rather than by authors. The "afterword" to _Sethra Lavode_ is ostensibly written by someone who has met Paarfi and admires him. (Pararectally, the description of Paarfi sounds a lot like a sardonic description of Brust himself.) It's a rather big stretch for me to imagine Sethra turning herself into a man and living Paarfi's apparently semi-decadent life, including seducing one of his groupies... Now, you can speculate that Paarfi is nothing more than a shill and that Sethra does the actual writing (Think _Without A Clue_, the film whose premise was that Watson was the actual detective and that "Holmes" was actually an actor hired as a front man. Rather like _Remington Steele_, now that I think about it.) but I think the textev at this point supports the existence of an actual person answering to the name "Paarfi of Roundwood". From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 5 08:23:08 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.co m> References: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105111115.025678e8@cox.net> At 01:06 AM 1/5/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any way > > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike me > > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > >This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does >Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge >of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? I wouldn't say that it was a matter of "enjoyment" at all. Sethra may have ways to pass the time, of course, but I would have said that Kiera is able to do things and go places that Sethra Lavode can't, and doesn't, and that is the reason for Kiera's existence. Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions based on other things we have learned about Vlad. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 08:59:10 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:59:10 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Maximilian Wilson" Cc: "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:39 AM Subject: Re: (Orca spoiler) > Maximilian Wilson wrote on 01/04/2006 10:06:08 PM: > > > On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > At the same time, I'm not sure I can conceive of Sethra being in any > way > > > shape or form interested in secretly being Paarfi... Not that there's > > > anything not to like about Paarfi, understand, he just doesn't strike > me > > > as the type of person that Sethra would be willing to put with. > > > > This begs the question [wicked look]: what aspects of being Kiera does > > Sethra most enjoy? Having friendships, breaking the law, the challenge > > of high-tech (magic) theft, not killing people? > > > > Max > > I could only say it's for the reasons she gives at the end of Orca, in > response to Vlad's question of "Why Kiera? Or rather, Sethra, why Kiera?" > > I somehow doubt it's the lawbreaking aspect. She's had plenty of > opportunities to do that as Sethra. > > Having friendships certainly isn't a problem for Sethra, either (see > Morrolan, Aliera, StY (pre-Yendi), Tazendra, and most notably Tukko). > > I think challenge is the key. > > When you've lived 200,000+ years and are a neigh-unto invincible sorceress > and general who can defeat any army on the battlefield, and contemptuously > annihilate the greatest Dzur Heroes who come charging up your mountain, > you probably are looking for ways to relieve your ennui. Being Kiera, and > limiting herself to that persona, gives her challenges in ways she > probably hasn't experienced as Sethra for the better part of the life of > the Empire. (I'm still dying to know what Sethra was like in the really > early days of the Empire. Was she always this badass? Or did she start out > as a naieve little sister to some important Dragonlord who helped found > the Empire?) > > BTW: Did Sethra say that Kiera never killed people at all? Or just that > she wouldn't kill people in order to keep her true identity a secret? I > forget the exact phrasing she used... (Which could be important, > considering the first time Vlad met her (in /Taltos/) she was > participating in an assassination...) > > Majikjon I don't believe that she was participating, IIRC correctly she was at another table and saw what was going on (the assassin intimidating Vlad, and came over to interfere. Jeff From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 5 08:56:05 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:56:05 -0500 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.co m> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105115418.0257a990@cox.net> At 01:00 AM 1/5/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he > > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) > >The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his >location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I >can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except >for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does >he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? I certainly >do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't >entirely understand. Kiera, of course, hands Vlad the vial of a god's blood, which is put to such good use later on, in _Taltos_. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 5 09:10:51 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:10:51 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61c701c6121a$faab5560$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > BTW: Did Sethra say that Kiera never killed people at all? Or > just that > she wouldn't kill people in order to keep her true identity a > secret? I > forget the exact phrasing she used... (Which could be important, > considering the first time Vlad met her (in /Taltos/) she was > participating in an assassination...) > Kiera has never killed and would never kill to preserve the secret. She wasn't participating in the assassination in the Taltos family restaurant. She stood up to interfere when the assassin threatened Vlad, then she gave Vlad some sympathy afterwards. One of those little details that only takes on greater significance in light of the events of Orca. I agree that we really don't have a clue as to why Sethra and Kiera have taken an interest in Vlad and watched over him most of his life. Vlad seems to understand it, though, so maybe I'm just dense. It might be as simple as him being Dolivar reincarnated, though we don't seem to know enough about that circumstance to conclusively say that it's the reason. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 09:29:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:29:55 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105115418.0257a990@cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 08:56 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? >At 01:00 AM 1/5/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >>On 1/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> > We know that Vlad *likes* Kiera, but do we have any clue on how much he >> > *trusts* Kiera? At least before the events in /Orca/? (Or even after? ;-) ) >> >>The fact that she appears in /Orca/, i.e. that Vlad gave her his >>location is spite of the Jhereg al-Hiraba against him, is telling. I >>can't actually think of where she appears outside of /Jhereg/ except >>for the scene in /Yendi/ where she's doing Sethra's dirty work; does >>he mention her among the goodbyes at the end of /Phoenix/? I certainly >>do get the impression that Vlad trusts her, for reasons he doesn't >>entirely understand. > >Kiera, of course, hands Vlad the vial of a god's blood, which is put >to such good use later on, in _Taltos_. Okay, I will concede that there is ample evidence to support the conclusion that Vlad trusts Kiera. (To a point seemingly beyond that which is wise to do so, it would seem.) And in retrospect, if Vlad didn't trust Kiera, she wouldn't be a reliable source of information on Kragar in the first place, so I guess that observation was ultimately self-defeating anyway. Majikjon From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:38:30 2006 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:38:30 +0000 Subject: Klava with Honey - A Prologue by Steven Brust Message-ID: Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? If so, is it a short story or a poem? The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed / mentioned on the list before. BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON CHAPBOOK 4. USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J Near Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What Sleeps in the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) USD 50.00 Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml Thanks..... PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks with "A Dream of Passion" From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 11:01:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:01:26 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 09:00 AM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: The Magic Box >(Pararectally, the description of Paarfi sounds a lot like a sardonic >description of Brust himself.) It's a rather big stretch for me to imagine Steve wouldn't *ever* sarcastically self-parody himself would he? (Incidentally, the "Gods playing at Eidelons" bit at the end of this section is absolutely fabulous. It also gives us the complete rules for the Dragaeran game of "Seven-Clawed Jhereg", which bears some striking similarities to Hold 'em... (Insofar as it is obviously exactly the same game). This bit also gives nearly a complete breakdown of what a Dragaeran deck of cards consists of. I am currently considering the best way to add this information to the wiki.) >Sethra turning herself into a man and living Paarfi's apparently >semi-decadent life, including seducing one of his groupies... That was my feeling, as well. This just doesn't seem too likely. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 5 11:07:41 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:07:41 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060105111115.025678e8@cox.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601042206l618b136cq4a871c29f9d5c0ec@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060105111115.025678e8@cox.net> Message-ID: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we >have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions >based on other things we have learned about Vlad. > > > > She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests of a normal thief. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 11:12:09 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:12:09 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > grandfather has, now that I think of it. And I'm pretty sure she's > never overtly lied to him, although I think she's lied indirectly by > implication (I'm thinking of her "promise" to revenge him if Morrolan > kills him). You mean the fact that she knew Morrolan wasn't actually going to kill him? Or do you think she wouldn't have done it, if Morrolan had gone off his rocker somehow and killed Vlad? If it's about her not admitting that she knew the true circumstances of the theft, I'd say it was a literal truth hiding a deception ("He's not going to kill you") to convey a truth "It's going to be all right." It did succeed in making Vlad feel better, although he wasn't sure why. > Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her > completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her > background. Agree. Vlad really has a soft spot for people, doesn't he? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 11:14:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:14:56 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 11:07 AM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we >>have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions >>based on other things we have learned about Vlad. >> > >She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests >of a normal thief. At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was important that he have it. Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always conciously aware of what they mean. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 5 11:32:25 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:32:25 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <43BD7449.2080705@brazee.net> > >>Now, Kiera's interest in Vlad is interesting, but I don't think we > >>have any evidence of a reason for it at all, just some suppositions > >>based on other things we have learned about Vlad. > >> > > > >She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests > >of a normal thief. > > At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was > important that he have it. > > Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, > as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > conciously aware of what they mean. She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is "interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - Kiera is very thorough with her thieving plans, for instance. It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight from book 17 or 18. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 12:25:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:25:09 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BD7449.2080705@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 11:32 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >> Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, >> as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some >> precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always >> conciously aware of what they mean. > > >She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is >"interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - >Kiera is very thorough with her thieving plans, for instance. I'm not sure I buy the idea that Verra could have just randomly guessed that her blood would be somehow useful to Vlad (or rather, to Morrolan). That seems like an incredibly lucky guess; unless Verra is in the habit of giving out her blood to all her new clients, since it has 1001 uses or something. (Four out of five assassins prefer Verra blood for all their everyday sorcery needs!) Sure seems like some kind of limited precognition is a more likely circumstance in this case. >It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was >angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be >considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight >from book 17 or 18. I recently re-read the entire Vlad series and took special note of the encounters with Kiera, even the ones as early as /Jhereg/ and /Yendi/ are full of double-meanings after having read /Orca/. It's a real treat. Majikjon From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Thu Jan 5 12:34:46 2006 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:34:46 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote on 01/05/2006 03:25:09 PM: > Howard Brazee > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/05/06 11:32 AM > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: (Orca spoiler) > > > > > >> Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, > >> as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > >> precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > >> conciously aware of what they mean. > > > > > >She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is > >"interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - > > I'm not sure I buy the idea that Verra could have just randomly guessed > that her blood would be somehow useful to Vlad (or rather, to Morrolan). > > That seems like an incredibly lucky guess; unless Verra is in the habit of > giving out her blood to all her new clients, since it has 1001 uses or > something. (Four out of five assassins prefer Verra blood for all their > everyday sorcery needs!) > > Sure seems like some kind of limited precognition is a more likely > circumstance in this case. > deverra can do all kinds of weird things with time. i've always thought this was because she was verra's granddaughter and therefore it must have been some kind of god-power, probably one that verra had. > >It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was > >angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be > >considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight > >from book 17 or 18. > > I recently re-read the entire Vlad series and took special note of the > encounters with Kiera, even the ones as early as /Jhereg/ and /Yendi/ are > full of double-meanings after having read /Orca/. It's a real treat. > > Majikjon _______________________________________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) and may be confidential, proprietary, and/or legally privileged. Inadvertent disclosure of this message does not constitute a waiver of any privilege. If you receive this message in error, please do not directly or indirectly use, print, copy, forward, or disclose any part of this message. Please also delete this e-mail and all copies and notify the sender. Thank you. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:12:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:12:20 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/5/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > grandfather has, now that I think of it. And I'm pretty sure she's > > never overtly lied to him, although I think she's lied indirectly by > > implication (I'm thinking of her "promise" to revenge him if Morrolan > > kills him). > > You mean the fact that she knew Morrolan wasn't actually going to kill > him? Yes. That is, she implied that it was a possible outcome that Morrolan might kill him (as far as she knew). I'm 99.95% sure that Morrolan was told "The Easterner may provoke you. Do not kill him, no matter how rude he becomes." Or words to that effect (possibly even simpler: "We need his cooperation."). > If it's about her not admitting that she knew the true circumstances > of the theft, I'd say it was a literal truth hiding a deception ("He's not > going to kill you") to convey a truth "It's going to be all right." Is she Sethra Lavode or a Yendi? ("They aren't all that different.") Heh. > It did succeed in making Vlad feel better, although he wasn't sure why. As far as he knew at that time, she meant it, and was capable of carrying it out. > > Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her > > completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her > > background. > > Agree. Vlad really has a soft spot for people, doesn't he? > He has a soft spot for people who are loyal to him. Not so much with the everyone else. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:20:16 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I'm 99.95% sure that Morrolan was told "The Easterner may provoke you. > Do not kill him, no matter how rude he becomes." Or words to that > effect (possibly even simpler: "We need his cooperation."). I wonder what S would have done if M had destroyed V in her home. I can imagine her taking some action describable as "revenge". V: "M, you're a poop-head." M: "V, you look funny minced." S: "M, be a newt." From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:21:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:21:34 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee > > > >She did lend Vlad something once that seems to be beyond the interests > >of a normal thief. Or even an extraordinary thief. > At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was > important that he have it. > > Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed earlier, as > it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > conciously aware of what they mean. > I've speculated that Devera was the one who told Verra that she needed to give a small vial of her blood to Sethra, and then told Sethra to give it to Vlad. ("But *why*, child?") ("Because he needs to have it now.") After all, Devera was there right after Vlad retrieved it, and was quite possibly watching from hiding when he gave it to Morrolan to inject (or rather, she was probably watching while hiding the whole time they were on the beach, and only came out to make sure that Vlad woke up properly from his post-spell lassitude). From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:21:09 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:21:09 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. On 1/5/06, Carla Hunt wrote: > > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote on 01/05/2006 03:25:09 PM: > > > Howard Brazee > > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > 01/05/06 11:32 AM > > > > To > > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > > cc > > > > Subject > > Re: (Orca spoiler) > > > > > > > > > > >> Which itself is interesting, in regards to a question I posed > earlier, > > >> as it seems to indicate that the Dragaeran gods *do* indeed have some > > > >> precognative abilities, but also implies that they are not always > > >> conciously aware of what they mean. > > > > > > > > >She's not dumb. Minimally, she just found out that Vlad is > > >"interesting". She's also someone who prepares for eventualities - > > > > I'm not sure I buy the idea that Verra could have just randomly guessed > > that her blood would be somehow useful to Vlad (or rather, to Morrolan). > > > > > That seems like an incredibly lucky guess; unless Verra is in the habit > of > > giving out her blood to all her new clients, since it has 1001 uses or > > something. (Four out of five assassins prefer Verra blood for all their > > everyday sorcery needs!) > > > > Sure seems like some kind of limited precognition is a more likely > > circumstance in this case. > > > > deverra can do all kinds of weird things with time. i've always thought > this was because she was verra's granddaughter and therefore it must have > been some kind of god-power, probably one that verra had. > > > >It is interesting to note Vlad's observations about how Sethra was > > >angered by some of his statements - what he observed then might be > > >considerably different from what he would have observed with hindsight > > >from book 17 or 18. > > > > I recently re-read the entire Vlad series and took special note of the > > encounters with Kiera, even the ones as early as /Jhereg/ and /Yendi/ > are > > full of double-meanings after having read /Orca/. It's a real treat. > > > > Majikjon > > > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________ > > The information contained in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the > intended recipient(s) and may be confidential, proprietary, and/or legally > privileged. Inadvertent disclosure of this message does not constitute a > waiver of any privilege. If you receive this message in error, please do > not directly or indirectly use, print, copy, forward, or disclose any part > of this message. Please also delete this e-mail and all copies and notify > the sender. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________________________________________________________ > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:23:24 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:23:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, > > or anyway haven't yet. > > Well, it hit the mailing list archives. And me, eventually. Something at the lab doesn't love Jon. Dear PTB, please ignore my previous plea. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 13:29:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:29:19 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 01:23 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: The Magic Box >On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> > Dear powers-that-be, I didn't receive the email Jose responds to below, >> > or anyway haven't yet. >> >> Well, it hit the mailing list archives. > >And me, eventually. Something at the lab doesn't love Jon. S'okay. Our network doesn't like me, either. ;-) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:30:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:30:39 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm > surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their food", or words to that effect. (and can we please trim our posts?) From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:33:26 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:33:26 -0700 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051333i5fce0d49qd6cfd0b4873ec542@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Yes. That is, she implied that it was a possible outcome that > Morrolan might kill him (as far as she knew). I'm 99.95% sure that > Morrolan was told "The Easterner may provoke you. Do not kill him, no > matter how rude he becomes." Or words to that effect (possibly even > simpler: "We need his cooperation."). Hmmm. >"Standard rates for the job you did," I explained, glancing at the body. "You do good work." >At which point the tray went flying as Sethra Lavode struck it. She stood and her hand went >to the hilt of her weapon. Morrolan also stood, and I swear he growled. So was she acting here, or at least deliberately not reining in her temper? (She wouldn't have actually killed him with Iceflame, any more than I would actually throttle a bratty seven-year-old. But neither the kid nor Vlad has to know that.) > > It did succeed in making Vlad feel better, although he wasn't sure why. > > As far as he knew at that time, she meant it, and was capable of > carrying it out. > > Agree. Vlad really has a soft spot for people, doesn't he? > > He has a soft spot for people who are loyal to him. Not so much with > the everyone else. True, but I guess it's no wonder he didn't make it in the Jhereg, long-term. The bosses--who are presumably the "archetypical" Jhereg--are not very much like him. Far more cold-blooded, less touchy about personal honor, willing as Sethra said to discuss a business deal no matter how they were brought into it. I wonder what Dolivar was like. Max Wilson P.S. Two interesting observations: Kierra calls them "brandies," not "wines" like most Dragaerans. Also, Anne Rice has a recent book named /Taltos/ too. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:36:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:36:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > (and can we please trim our posts?) We can not. There must be 17**17 times more words in the archives than in the Texts to prevent the world from ending, and _Dzur_ is longer than any two books in the extant Vladiad. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:46:27 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:46:27 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051346j13eb3844q5f7336a39c0abf35@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > We can not. There must be 17**17 times more words in the archives than in > the Texts to prevent the world from ending, and _Dzur_ is longer than any > two books in the extant Vladiad. Jerk. You had me there for a second, about /Dzur/. [pouts] ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 13:49:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:49:15 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051346j13eb3844q5f7336a39c0abf35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 01:46 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> We can not. There must be 17**17 times more words in the archives than in >> the Texts to prevent the world from ending, and _Dzur_ is longer than any >> two books in the extant Vladiad. > >Jerk. You had me there for a second, about /Dzur/. [pouts] > >;) Hey, look at it this way, just because he was kidding doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't right. Majikjon From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jan 5 13:52:33 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:52:33 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BD9521.3080903@Sun.COM> Philip Hart wrote On 01/05/06 13:36,: > and _Dzur_ is longer than any > two books in the extant Vladiad. That's because it has all these other quotes from prior books. Looks like: Vlad Taltos wrote: > There is a similarity, if I may be permitted > > No shit, so there I was. Heh. :) Chris From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:56:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:56:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Maximilian Wilson > >On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > >> _Dzur_ is longer than any two books in the extant Vladiad. > > > >Jerk. You had me there for a second, about /Dzur/. [pouts] > > > >;) > > Hey, look at it this way, just because he was kidding doesn't necessarily > mean he wasn't right. Amazon says: Dzur: Hardcover: 320 pages Issola: Hardcover: 256 pages From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 13:57:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over > > the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that > > there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up > > frequently. > > Actually, there is not. > > Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it > up, presenting every argument in its favor. I wrote at least a summary on the topic here on at least one occasion. Perhaps I can dig one or more up. Unfortunately I have come over time to find the matter boring and simply taken it on as a viewpoint. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 5 14:45:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:45:50 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 01:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >Amazon says: > >Dzur: Hardcover: 320 pages > >Issola: Hardcover: 256 pages They just don't mention that Dzur is going to be printed with an 8-point font. ;-) Large print edition: only $50 extra. Majikjon From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jan 5 16:55:25 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:55:25 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Davdi Silverrock writes: >On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: >> My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm >> surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. > >Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure >she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their >food", or words to that effect. His dad calls his name right before she uses it. Page 3 in the massmarket edition. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 17:09:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Davdi Silverrock writes: > > >On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm > >> surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. > > > >Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure > >she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their > >food", or words to that effect. > > His dad calls his name right before she uses it. Page 3 in the > massmarket edition. I was just wondering if the Vladiad could have been dictated in Fenarian to simplify things on SKZB's side. We see Noish-pa talking to Vlad in Dragaeran, so I take it the latter language is his native tongue. I assume V's father spoke D for assimilationist reasons, though he was likely bilingual. I wonder if he spoke in F to V in the restaurant when ordering him around. If so, the above might conceivably not be evidence. There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 17:56:03 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:56:03 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jan 5 20:41:54 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:41:54 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >>On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>>If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over >>>the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that >>>there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up >>>frequently. >>> >>> >>Actually, there is not. >> >>Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it >>up, presenting every argument in its favor. >> >> > >I wrote at least a summary on the topic here on at least one occasion. >Perhaps I can dig one or more up. Unfortunately I have come over time >to find the matter boring and simply taken it on as a viewpoint. > You did indeed. And interestingly, I was in Miami at the time and couldn't search my archives when the discussion came up. If we're searching the list archives, January of 2005 is the month in question, and the thread is the questions about Paarfi thread. More specifically: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16024:bpckibiaojljpeencedl and the actual summary: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16034:bpckibiaojljpeencedl I can grab more cites for this line of speculation from my personal list archive if they're wanted (I generally have an easier time finding things that way). Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 5 20:21:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:21:34 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <43BD6E7D.9070406@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BDF04E.2050505@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>At the explicit request of Verra, who, herself, didn't know why it was >>important that he have it. >> >> >I've speculated that Devera was the one who told Verra that she needed >to give a small vial of her blood to Sethra, and then told Sethra to >give it to Vlad. > >("But *why*, child?") >("Because he needs to have it now.") > >After all, Devera was there right after Vlad retrieved it, and was >quite possibly watching from hiding when he gave it to Morrolan to >inject (or rather, she was probably watching while hiding the whole >time they were on the beach, and only came out to make sure that Vlad >woke up properly from his post-spell lassitude). > > Well... but this simply makes Devera the *mechanism* for Verra's precognition. Devera could just as easily have said to Verra 1000 years before the Interregnum: ("Watch out for my Uncle Vlad, cause in about 1500 years he's going to re-create Godslayer.") ("What?!?!?") ...and she therefore decides to keep a close eye on the Taltos family, in general, and Vlad in particular when his time comes along. (And maybe also arranges for Pathfinder (in the guise of a weak morganti sword being carried by Fenarr) to be given to Aliera's father, and also arranges for Vlad to be given the soul of Dolivar (Aliera's brother from a former life) as mechanisms to attempt to control what Vlad is going to *do* with Godslayer, which, needless to say, makes her a bit nervous. In fact, depending on how much advance warning Verra had, Vlad and Godslayer may have been the reason why Verra took such an interest in Fanerio to begin with. Hmph. Interesting how that all sort of clicks together.) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 20:51:30 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Jose Marquez wrote: > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16034:bpckibiaojljpeencedl Ah yes, I had forgotten that it was Sethra who assassinated Tortaalik. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jan 5 21:29:28 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:29:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060106052928.CD5A5682DB@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. I think he admits to not being fluent in it. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 21:50:56 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:50:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20060106052928.CD5A5682DB@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060106052928.CD5A5682DB@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. > > I think he admits to not being fluent in it. He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's in Dragaeran. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jan 5 21:56:12 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060106055612.465CD68427@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's in Dragaeran. That is definitely the impression i get. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 5 22:01:46 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:01:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20060106055612.465CD68427@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060106055612.465CD68427@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's in Dragaeran. > > That is definitely the impression i get. It was my assumption as well, just hadn't considered the matter before. The list has discussed the issue of "gya" at length. I was going to wonder about whether all of Vlad's enforcers are actually male, but forgot the Right/Left distinction which now strikes me as extremely odd. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 6 03:15:02 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:15:02 +0000 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <20060106101626.XRMB29634.aamta11-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> > > From: Philip Hart > Date: 2006/01/06 Fri AM 05:50:56 GMT > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: (Orca spoiler) > > > > On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > > > Philip Hart writes: > > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. > > > > I think he admits to not being fluent in it. > > He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age > and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his > deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's > in Dragaeran. Given his father wanting to be Dragaeran in all ways, I would ave thought he would only have learnt Dragaeran at home and Noishpa taught him a little Fenarian. My 2 Cents. Mark ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 02:32:45 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 05:32:45 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Did Kiera call him Vlad or ask him to make sure she had it right? On 1/5/06, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock writes: > > >On 1/5/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> My memory might be off but I think Kiera already knew Vlad's name. I'm > >> surprised that didn't set off a warning bell when Vlad remembered it. > > > >Why should it have? She was in Vlad's father's restaurant; I'm sure > >she heard Vlad's father say: "Vlad, please bring our customers their > >food", or words to that effect. > > His dad calls his name right before she uses it. Page 3 in the > massmarket edition. > > > -- > Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com > http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ > "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." > -- James Nicoll > From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 02:49:17 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 05:49:17 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: Honestly, the whole begging the question thing is a bit wearying for anyone like me, who really doesn't care. I use it occasionally, at most, and I've done both the 'proper' and the 'modern' uses. Anyway, all problems can be be solved with explosives, even the insoluble ones- when the problem is presented to you, blow up whomever or whatever presented the problem in the first place. From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 02:54:37 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 05:54:37 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <003801c6117a$a89d6f10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: Also, the levees. Blow up New Orleans, the immediate area around it, and a few of the people whose incompetency caused the problem in the first place. On 1/6/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > > Honestly, the whole begging the question thing is a bit wearying for > anyone like me, who really doesn't care. I use it occasionally, at most, and > I've done both the 'proper' and the 'modern' uses. > > Anyway, all problems can be be solved with explosives, even the insoluble > ones- when the problem is presented to you, blow up whomever or whatever > presented the problem in the first place. > From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 6 05:59:28 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:59:28 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) References: <709FB7CA.6A969A23.00048EA6@aol.com> <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maximilian Wilson" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:56 PM Subject: Re: (Orca spoiler) On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps > he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. Actually, I usually try to learn useful phrases like "Could I have another beer please?" and "Where is the bathroom?" first. After that my time is split between learning swear words and pickup lines. Jeff -Can still order beer in most of the major European languages. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 06:44:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:44:53 -0800 Subject: Cursing in Fenarian In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 05:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >On 1/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps >> he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. > >Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. >Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick >up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so >basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So >it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. Dangit, I know that someone has translated the Fenarian phrases used in /Issola/ peviously, but I can't remember if it was on the list, or on a fan page. I figured it *must* be on the Cracks-and-Shards languages page, but alas, it is not. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 06:53:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:53:09 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 09:50 PM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > >> Philip Hart writes: >> There's a bit in _Issola_ where V mutters to himself in F, so perhaps >> he's fully bilingual or that's his milk tongue. >> >> I think he admits to not being fluent in it. > >He might have stopped speaking/hearing F regularly at a young age >and lack a fully native grammar/vocab but still have it in his >deep language center. But if he's not fluent then the Vladiad's >in Dragaeran. [cite] V: "How many languages do you speak, Teldra?" T: "Several," she said, "And you?" V: "None well. A bit of Fenarian. A smattering of a few other Eastern Languages." [/cite] I like the fact that he doesn't even claim to speak Dragaeran 'well'. But Vlad's assessment of his own abilities would be consistent with the above theory. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 06:57:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 06:57:13 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601051756m763772em77a269a5e5ca057b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 05:56 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. >Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick >up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so >basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So >it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. > >Max Wilson There is it. It's on Phoenix's page, towards the bottom. http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/books.html Tragya means (according to this translation), "We're in deep shit." and Legalabb is "At least." Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 6 08:07:57 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:07:57 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) References: Message-ID: > > > > > >Well, he's been to Fenarr, and it's some sort of soldier's curse. > >Oddly enough, cursing seems to be one of the first things people pick > >up in a new language; perhaps because the grammar of expletives is so > >basic, and expletives are disproportionately likely to be curses. So > >it could be a phrase learned in adulthood, even. > > > >Max Wilson > > There is it. It's on Phoenix's page, towards the bottom. > > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/books.html > > Tragya means (according to this translation), "We're in deep shit." and > Legalabb is "At least." > > Majikjon My resource for all things crude, the Alternative Dictionary, does not mention that word on the Hungarian page. . . . http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.html For shit we have: szar ? shit note Meaning differs from its English equivalent. Though it literally means 'shit' Hungarian people use it to describe something of bad quality. E.g. 'Az eg?sz ?gy szar, ahogy van' = It's not worth a piece of shit. Van egy t?k szar aut?m = I have a really bad car. However, at http://dict.sztaki.hu/index.jhtml I did find tragya, and it was listed as manure, or muck. Given Vlad's opinion of horses, I could see this being a curse to him. Jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 08:26:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:26:15 -0800 Subject: Cursing in Fenarian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/06/06 08:07 AM To cc Subject Re: (Orca spoiler) >My resource for all things crude, the Alternative Dictionary, does not >mention that word on the Hungarian page. . . . > >http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.html > >For shit we have: > >szar ? shit note Meaning differs from its English equivalent. Though it >literally means 'shit' Hungarian people use it to describe something of bad >quality. E.g. 'Az eg?sz ?gy szar, ahogy van' = It's not worth a piece of >shit. Van egy t?k szar aut?m = I have a really bad car. > >However, at http://dict.sztaki.hu/index.jhtml I did find tragya, and it was >listed as manure, or muck. Given Vlad's opinion of horses, I could see this >being a curse to him. ...and here's a little more confirmation. This one gives several one-word translations, Muck, Fertilizer, Excrement, Dung, Chip (Like a dung chip?), Muck, manure. This sounds a lot like the same kinds of synonyms you'd have for "shit" (or maybe "crap") if a foreign speaker looked up those words in a dictionary... http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=tragya&allow=true Also, check out the translations for legalabb: http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=legalabb&allow=true "At any rate" or "At the lowest estimate" might also work for this exchange... Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 6 08:34:50 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:34:50 -0700 Subject: Concerning the gods Message-ID: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> >Or perhaps the presence of all that raw Amorphia right nearby causes a >weakness in whatever it is that keeps her from appearing on Dragaera? The difference between gods and demons seems to be in the minds of the gods. Sort of like the difference between serfs and slaves. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 6 08:35:00 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:35:00 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Hungarian.html > >For shit we have: > >szar ? shit note Meaning differs from its English equivalent. Though it >literally means 'shit' Hungarian people use it to describe something of bad >quality. E.g. 'Az eg?sz ?gy szar, ahogy van' = It's not worth a piece of >shit. Van egy t?k szar aut?m = I have a really bad car. > > > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. Of course, "shit" in English is more and more like the Hungarian. We are in a society that no longer is afraid to state the concept - only now we use the word "poop" - even in polite company. It's also OK to say something is bull shit, and to a lesser extent - that is a shitty car. A similar change in meaning is "bitch", which used to be used to describe female dogs the way we use "cow" to describe female bulls. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 09:39:06 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:39:06 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman interview In-Reply-To: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> Message-ID: Saw this on Fark today, and figured that a lot of folks here would find it interesting. http://blog.92y.org/index.php/weblog/item/neil_gaiman/ Majikjon From jtoth at megrez.org Fri Jan 6 10:21:31 2006 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:21:31 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey - A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in > the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? > > If so, is it a short story or a poem? Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) Specifically, I'd hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed / > mentioned on the list before. Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's been a long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have been mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks > with "A Dream of Passion" > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 11:43:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:43:50 -0800 Subject: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory In-Reply-To: <43BDF512.4090707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/05/06 08:41 PM To Dragaera cc Subject >>I wrote at least a summary on the topic here on at least one occasion. >>Perhaps I can dig one or more up. Unfortunately I have come over time >>to find the matter boring and simply taken it on as a viewpoint. >> >You did indeed. And interestingly, I was in Miami at the time and >couldn't search my archives when the discussion came up. If we're >searching the list archives, January of 2005 is the month in question, >and the thread is the questions about Paarfi thread. More specifically: > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16024:bpckibiaojljpeencedl > >and the actual summary: > >http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:16034:bpckibiaojljpeencedl > >I can grab more cites for this line of speculation from my personal list >archive if they're wanted (I generally have an easier time finding >things that way). Using the above, I've taken the liberty of posting this summary (edited a bit for clarity, and wikified) on the wikicity. It can be found at: http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood Please review this, if you feel so inclined, and feel free to revise the entry, or else just ask me to revise if you find any points are innaccurate or have been omitted. Majikjon (Your friendly neighborhood Lyorn Records admin) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 6 11:55:35 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood > > Please review this, if you feel so inclined, and feel free to revise the > entry, or else just ask me to revise if you find any points are > innaccurate or have been omitted. The last line should link to spec about the events of _FHYA_ - the related idea that Sethra/Aliera offed Tortaalik and put the blame on (or gave the credit to) Mario, which is a simpler version of events - or be omitted. There should also be a discussion of Orb-Emperor vs Cycle-Emperor drawn from arguments at the time of the summary link. Which the wiki page might link to. From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 12:02:32 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:02:32 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman interview In-Reply-To: References: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> Message-ID: I met him at the first Anansi boys signing (two copies, one for me, one for a friend, and a first edition American gods plus 1602) and mentioned Steve was my favorite author. On 1/6/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Saw this on Fark today, and figured that a lot of folks here would find it > interesting. > > http://blog.92y.org/index.php/weblog/item/neil_gaiman/ > > Majikjon > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 12:07:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:07:17 -0800 Subject: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/06/06 11:55 AM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: The Sethra-Paarfi link theory >On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> >> http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood >> >> Please review this, if you feel so inclined, and feel free to revise the >> entry, or else just ask me to revise if you find any points are >> innaccurate or have been omitted. > >The last line should link to spec about the events of _FHYA_ - >the related idea that Sethra/Aliera offed Tortaalik and put the blame >on (or gave the credit to) Mario, which is a simpler version of events - >or be omitted. > >There should also be a discussion of Orb-Emperor vs Cycle-Emperor drawn >from arguments at the time of the summary link. Which the wiki page might >link to. Well, since I don't have a good source for these additional theories, it sounds like the last line simply needs to be excised (for now). If anyone gets the time to dig up references to these other spec theories I'd love to have more content for the wiki. Lyorn Records has a whole namespace dedicated to speculation that (so far) is only populated with a smattering of articles (mostly on Kragar, Sethra, various Great Weapons, and Vlad). Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 6 12:15:58 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:15:58 -0700 Subject: Neil Gaiman interview In-Reply-To: References: <43BE9C2A.6080302@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BECFFE.80907@brazee.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >I met him at the first Anansi boys signing (two copies, one for me, one for >a friend, and a first edition American gods plus 1602) and mentioned Steve >was my favorite author. > > > I had children & grandchildren with me with copies of books to sign at The Tattered Cover, but gave up an hour after the signing started as it was past our bedtimes. I remember a few years ago asking Steve whether he enjoyed signing. He thought a moment and said that he did. Things may have changed since then, but authors have advantages over many celebrities in being able to pick and choose when they are recognized. Furthermore, they don't have to choose to be recognized when they work. I think it would get very old to be Tiger Woods being asked to sign golf balls, programs, or menus at restaurants. Not enough to retire or anything... From scs at di.org Fri Jan 6 12:21:29 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:21:29 -0500 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <26335458.1136418806672.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060106202129.GD21023@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 01:13:45AM -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > If this wasn't obvious from recent comments (e.g., at least three over > > the last month mixing P and S), then my bad. I had sort of assumed that > > there was a Paarfi-as-puppet wiki page by now, given that it comes up > > frequently. > > Actually, there is not. > > Why don't you summarize your logic on this topic? That is, write it > up, presenting every argument in its favor. If you post it to the > list, I (or someone) will add it to Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood. > Or you could do it yourself, if you wanted to: > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/index.php?title=Speculation:Paarfi_of_Roundwood&action=edit Seconded. I just put up some of my old speculations about Vlad and Cawti there. The site seems a little slow, but it could be they're just having a bad day today. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 6 12:24:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:24:36 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <20060106202129.GD21023@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/06/06 12:21 PM To Davdi Silverrock cc Dragaera List Subject Re: The Magic Box >Seconded. I just put up some of my old speculations about Vlad and Cawti >there. The site seems a little slow, but it could be they're just having >a bad day today. It was doing fine...until right after my last message. I think I may have triggered a run on their bandwidth. That'll learn me. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060106/6654a99f/attachment-0001.htm From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Jan 6 12:33:44 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:33:44 -0600 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BED428.6060000@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing > is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how > this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > There is a very great deal of religious cursing in Italy, the locale of the Roman Catholic Church. For more information on cursing; indeed, as much information as you would ever want to know about cursing, go to http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/ , the Internet home of the Journal of Verbal Abuse. This is a legitimate scholarly site, in spite of the proprietor's 'tude and the subject matter. > A similar change in meaning is "bitch", which used to be used to > describe female dogs the way we use "cow" to describe female bulls. Interesting that in English the cattlebeast is the only one generically referred to in the feminine. Dog is masculine, Cat is neuter, but Cow is feminine. Mia From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jan 6 14:07:42 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:07:42 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <28693639.13D6B62F.00048EA6@aol.com> Louis Eastman writes: > Did Kiera call him Vlad or ask him to make sure she had it right? "Vlad!" he called, "what's going on around here? Why--" [...] "Your name is Vlad?" she asked me. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 14:53:42 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:53:42 -0700 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <28693639.13D6B62F.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <28693639.13D6B62F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601061453q433bea45x21a367c9f31756e2@mail.gmail.com> On 1/6/06, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > "Vlad!" he called, "what's going on around here? Why--" > [...] > "Your name is Vlad?" she asked me. Thanks. Note that this can either be a query seeking information or an informal way of wrangling your own introduction. Have you ever tried to "meet" a girl wearing a nametag? Even if you know her name already it is presumptuous to act like you know it. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jan 6 15:29:41 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:29:41 -0800 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43BEFD65.4040806@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing > is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how > this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other language on earth, goddamit! Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jan 6 17:21:30 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:21:30 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BED428.6060000@comcast.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> <43BED428.6060000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3D852DB8-1DC5-44B2-B1B7-D5F5CE3E574E@mac.com> On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > > > Howard Brazee wrote: > >> >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French >> cursing >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I >> wonder how >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. >> > There is a very great deal of religious cursing in Italy, the > locale of the Roman Catholic Church. > > For more information on cursing; indeed, as much information as you > would ever want to know about cursing, go to http://www.sonic.net/ > maledicta/ , the Internet home of the Journal of Verbal Abuse. > This is a legitimate scholarly site, in spite of the proprietor's > 'tude and the subject matter. > >> A similar change in meaning is "bitch", which used to be used to >> describe female dogs the way we use "cow" to describe female bulls. > > > Interesting that in English the cattlebeast is the only one > generically referred to in the feminine. Dog is masculine, Cat is > neuter, but Cow is feminine. > > Mia How udderly insightful! From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jan 6 17:22:46 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:22:46 -0500 Subject: (Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <43BEFD65.4040806@comcast.net> References: <43BE9C34.6060400@brazee.net> <43BEFD65.4040806@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2006, at 6:29 PM, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French >> cursing >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I >> wonder how >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing > in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. > Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other > language on earth, goddamit! > > Majikjon Jesus H Christ, can't you stick to the point? Holy Moses! Jeez! From steve at romlin.com Sat Jan 7 14:02:12 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:02:12 +0100 Subject: Religious swearing Message-ID: > > > > > > We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French cursing > > is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I wonder how > > this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing in > the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. Hell, > I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other language on > earth, goddamit! > > Majikjon > > >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French > >> cursing > >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I > >> wonder how > >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing > > in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. > > Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other > > language on earth, goddamit! > > > > Majikjon > > Jesus H Christ, can't you stick to the point? Holy Moses! Jeez! > > Just reading the above made me reflect -- I assumed, reading the "Holy Mary" stuff, that it came from a more-religious part of the US. Automatically. And when I noticed myself assuming it, I wondered if maybe more-religiously-inclined cultures (or in the US, subcultures) will tend to swear more religiously. Or perhaps more recognizably religiously. ("Zounds", "Bloody" etc being no longer recognizably religious despite their origin, and "Jeez" starting to lose it). I lived in Italy for a few years and noticed that their swearing was usually either religious, or sacred/profane mixes, (e.g. porcodio -- "pig-god"). They occasionally threw in "puttana" as somewhere in between (porca puttana -- pig-whore) and it was considered really offensive. They had slang for sexual/scatological bits and used them cheerfully as profanities, but they had less power than the religious ones. And yes, they were all devout catholics. -- \Steve the Younger From kknolte at ecity.net Sat Jan 7 09:45:43 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:45:43 +0100 Subject: The Magic Box References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > > Now, you can speculate that Paarfi is nothing more than a shill and that > Sethra does the actual writing (Think _Without A Clue_, the film whose > premise was that Watson was the actual detective and that "Holmes" was > actually an actor hired as a front man. Rather like _Remington Steele_, now > that I think about it.) but I think the textev at this point supports the > existence of an actual person answering to the name "Paarfi of Roundwood". > How hard would it be to come up with a fake identity that's from an aristocratic House? On the one hand, you'd think with Dragaeran's long lifespans, they'd know an awful lot of relatives - kinda along the lines of knowing who your second cousins twice removed are, because you've been seeing them at great-great-grandpa's birthday parties, and they're aristocratic and concerned about making sure kids marry only within the House. So would people get suspicious if they couldn't figure out who someone was related to? On the other hand, Khaavren quite obviously didn't know of all the courtier Tiassa who might be a useful connection if he needed some Tiassa help - and I'd think a Countess would be fairly important. Anyone have any idea how big the various aristocratic Houses are (with the easy exception of the current Phoenix)? Karen From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 18:40:55 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:40:55 -0800 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> Steve Rapaport wrote: >Just reading the above made me reflect -- I assumed, reading the "Holy Mary" >stuff, that it came from a more-religious part of the US. Automatically. >And when I noticed myself assuming it, I wondered if maybe >more-religiously-inclined cultures (or in the US, subcultures) will tend to >swear more religiously. Or perhaps more recognizably religiously. >("Zounds", "Bloody" etc being no longer recognizably religious despite their >origin, and "Jeez" starting to lose it). > > Well, really, I'm not all that religious (I was raised a Methodist, but consider myself more or less an agnostic). And where I live (Oregon) is not particularly religious, overall (We were a blue state in both the last elections, after all). I was really just trying to make a not-to-subtle point in a somewhat humorous way. It was not intended to say that anyone was claiming that religious swearing didn't exist--more to say that all languages and cultures use a mixture of different types of swears, depending on local taboos. >I lived in Italy for a few years and noticed that their swearing was usually >either religious, or sacred/profane mixes, (e.g. porcodio -- "pig-god"). >They occasionally threw in "puttana" as somewhere in between (porca puttana >-- pig-whore) and it was considered really offensive. They had slang for >sexual/scatological bits and used them cheerfully as profanities, but they >had less power than the religious ones. And yes, they were all devout >catholics. > Given the nature of swearing, it makes sense that the more taboo a particular subject is in a given culture, the more likely it is that it would make a good swear. Kinda interesting social comment there, I would say. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 18:44:44 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:44:44 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Scott Schultz wrote: > > >> >>Now, you can speculate that Paarfi is nothing more than a shill and that >>Sethra does the actual writing (Think _Without A Clue_, the film whose >>premise was that Watson was the actual detective and that "Holmes" was >>actually an actor hired as a front man. Rather like _Remington Steele_, now >>that I think about it.) but I think the textev at this point supports the >>existence of an actual person answering to the name "Paarfi of Roundwood". >> >> >> > >How hard would it be to come up with a fake identity that's from an >aristocratic House? On the one hand, you'd think with Dragaeran's long >lifespans, they'd know an awful lot of relatives - kinda along the lines >of knowing who your second cousins twice removed are, because you've >been seeing them at great-great-grandpa's birthday parties, and they're >aristocratic and concerned about making sure kids marry only within the >House. So would people get suspicious if they couldn't figure out who >someone was related to? On the other hand, Khaavren quite obviously >didn't know of all the courtier Tiassa who might be a useful connection >if he needed some Tiassa help - and I'd think a Countess would be fairly >important. Anyone have any idea how big the various aristocratic Houses >are (with the easy exception of the current Phoenix)? > It isn't necessary for Paarfi himself, or his house or origins to be an invention for Philip's theory to work. He's only really saying that Paarfi is being *used* by Sethra, not that he *is* Sethra. At least, that's the impression I got when I typed it up for the wiki. At the same time, given the size of the Empire, and the relatively low technology level and population density, it's not inconceivable that someone could pull off a fairly convincing imposter routine. I seem to recall Pel doing that sort of thing on a couple of occasions. I mean, it's not like the Empire keeps a DNA database of all its citizens. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 7 19:10:11 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:10:11 -0700 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> References: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Given the nature of swearing, it makes sense that the more taboo a > >particular subject is in a given culture, the more likely it is that it >would make a good swear. Kinda interesting social comment there, I would >say. > >Majikjon > > I'm not sure. How religious of a country is France today? And which population in the U.S. is most likely to use religious swearing - the fundamentalists? Or Catholics? There is a tremendous amount of cultural conservativism in swearing. But where this conversation goes to is determining how various cultures in Dragaera swear. It doesn't appear that the Easterners have the same confidence in the everyday existence of gods. Do both cultures say swear by Vera's blood? It is interesting that when Vlad used an unfamiliar curse - he was asked if that was from something that really had been observed (we had observed that yes, it was in fact something real). Can someone look through the text for examples of swearing - and in particular the above example? From pulmon at mac.com Sat Jan 7 19:21:25 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:21:25 -0500 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> References: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:10 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Given the nature of swearing, it makes sense that the more taboo a >> >> particular subject is in a given culture, the more likely it is >> that it would make a good swear. Kinda interesting social comment >> there, I would say. >> >> Majikjon >> > I'm not sure. How religious of a country is France today? And > which population in the U.S. is most likely to use religious > swearing - the fundamentalists? Or Catholics? There is a > tremendous amount of cultural conservativism in swearing. > > But where this conversation goes to is determining how various > cultures in Dragaera swear. It doesn't appear that the Easterners > have the same confidence in the everyday existence of gods. Do > both cultures say swear by Vera's blood? It is interesting that > when Vlad used an unfamiliar curse - he was asked if that was from > something that really had been observed (we had observed that yes, > it was in fact something real). > > Can someone look through the text for examples of swearing - and in > particular the above example? Not a lot of religious swearing in France today. Besides the common "vas te faire fo?tre" (go f*** yourself) to "Bordel de merde" (whorehouse of shit) to ras le cul (I have had it up to my ass) scatalogical and sexual curses are far more common. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 21:12:55 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:12:55 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/7/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > K Kuhn wrote: > > > > >How hard would it be to come up with a fake identity that's from an > >aristocratic House? On the one hand, you'd think with Dragaeran's long > >lifespans, they'd know an awful lot of relatives - kinda along the lines > >of knowing who your second cousins twice removed are, because you've > >been seeing them at great-great-grandpa's birthday parties, and they're > >aristocratic and concerned about making sure kids marry only within the > >House. So would people get suspicious if they couldn't figure out who > >someone was related to? > >On the other hand, Khaavren quite obviously > >didn't know of all the courtier Tiassa who might be a useful connection > >if he needed some Tiassa help - and I'd think a Countess would be fairly > >important. As a high-ranking member of the Empire, he probably knew of both the Tiassa Heir and the Tiassa representative to the Empire, which would certainly suffice for "useful connections". And if he had though to ask, I'm sure that someone of his House could well have told him that one of the Consort's maids-of-honor was a Tiassa, and the Countess of Whitecrest as well (perhaps the Tiassa representative in particular, since he was none other than R?aanac, and thus a relative of Daro through his wife). But in the years prior to Adron's Disaster, Khaavren had become reticent, and no doubt he simply neglected to ask. > > > It isn't necessary for Paarfi himself, or his house or origins to be an > invention for Philip's theory to work. He's only really saying that > Paarfi is being *used* by Sethra, not that he *is* Sethra. > At the same time, given the size of the Empire, and the relatively low > technology level and population density, it's not inconceivable that > someone could pull off a fairly convincing imposter routine. I seem to > recall Pel doing that sort of thing on a couple of occasions. But only briefly, and not to anyone (as I recall) that had the resources to investigate any claims he made as to his identity. > I mean, it's not like the Empire keeps a DNA database of all its >citizens. > Hm. We know they have gene-scanning. And while we don't know how extensive the genetic knowledge is of all the Houses, we do know that the House of the Dragon tracks lineages -- subsets of House Dragon -- very carefully. Perhaps other Houses (except perhaps for the Jhereg) do as well, and we've just not seen it? Although, now that I think about it, Aliera says (in /Yendi/) that a "complicated illusion spell" could fool a genetic scan, if the one performing the scan was incompetent. It may well be that the only reliable way an imposter could exist would be to pass himself off as being a different member of his own House, and possibly of the same lineage. Which is not to argue that Paarfi is an imposter; I'm just musing on the possibilty of long-term House deceit fooling many people -- including those with the knowledge, power, and skill to perform a competent genscan -- for an extended length of time. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 21:20:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:20:34 -0800 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> References: <43C07BB7.5020301@comcast.net> <43C08293.1090603@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/7/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > But where this conversation goes to is determining how various cultures > in Dragaera swear. It doesn't appear that the Easterners have the same > confidence in the everyday existence of gods. Do both cultures say > swear by Vera's blood? It is interesting that when Vlad used an > unfamiliar curse - he was asked if that was from something that really > had been observed (we had observed that yes, it was in fact something real). Do you mean this exchange in /Phoenix/ (via Amazon Search Inside)? [Begin Cite] Vlad: "[...] But I know what I'm going to do first: find out just what, by the blood on Verra's floor, is going on in South Adrilankha." "Blood on Verra's floor?" said Morrolan. "I don't think I've heard that oath before." "No," I said. "You probably haven't." [End Cite] (the blood on Verra's floor was Vlad's own, of course) Probably the most amusing oath was this one from /Issola/: Vlad: "By Verra's tits," I said, forgetting then remembering that the pair of them weren't all that far away... From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 7 21:41:45 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 21:41:45 -0800 Subject: The Magic Box In-Reply-To: References: <61bb01c61219$96fa8280$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43BFFE44.2E26@ecity.net> <43C07C9C.2090008@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C0A619.7040705@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/7/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > >>I mean, it's not like the Empire keeps a DNA database of all its >>citizens. >> >> > >Hm. We know they have gene-scanning. And while we don't know how >extensive the genetic knowledge is of all the Houses, we do know that >the House of the Dragon tracks lineages -- subsets of House Dragon -- >very carefully. Perhaps other Houses (except perhaps for the Jhereg) >do as well, and we've just not seen it? > > Of course, now that I say that, I realize that with 95% of the population of the Empire consisting of Teckla (which wouldn't need to be in any kind of genetic database--at least, the nobility isn't likely to be too concerned with Teckla genetics) the prospect is not so daunting as I first supposed. Has anyone ever made an estimate of the total population of the Empire? Or educated guesses as to how members of each house there are? (Other than Phoenix, which can be counted on the fingers of one thumb.) If there are only a few tens of thousands of Dragons, (or even fewer) then a genetic line wouldn't be hard to keep track of. Similar numbers in the other houses (excepting Phoenix) would hold up there, as well. I would certainly expect some houses (Orca, for example) to be larger than this, and others (Such as Lyorn) to be smaller.... But this is just a gut feeling, as I don't think we have a good basis to go on from the texts themselves. >Although, now that I think about it, Aliera says (in /Yendi/) that a >"complicated illusion spell" could fool a genetic scan, if the one >performing the scan was incompetent. > >It may well be that the only reliable way an imposter could exist >would be to pass himself off as being a different member of his own >House, and possibly of the same lineage. > > Don't forget to take into account Aliera's arrogance on this score... I believe the follow-up question to this exchange was someone asking if StY could have been fooled, and Aliera's response was "Easily." Aliera's idea of what is "competent" is likely to be a rather high standard. >Which is not to argue that Paarfi is an imposter; I'm just musing on >the possibilty of long-term House deceit fooling many people -- >including those with the knowledge, power, and skill to perform a >competent genscan -- for an extended length of time. > > I bet Sethra could do it. There's a certain precident there, after all. ;-) Majikjon From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 8 01:47:55 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 04:47:55 EST Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:42:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, howard at brazee.net writes: And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? IMO: In My Opinion When: Since Dolivar came to their attention and then died. Or could have been even before Dolivar. How: Having Dolivar be reincarnated into each of the different houses. I think Teckla would be after Dolivar to put fear into him. When done with the 17 houses--Easterner. Dragon Teckla ... Dzur Tiassa Easterner No proof...just my wild speculation that no one else seems to believe in. Steve will show you one day! Or maybe not. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Sun Jan 8 04:04:38 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:04:38 +0100 Subject: Religious swearing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Rapaport wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Religious swearing >Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:02:12 +0100 > > >> We have seen religious cursing in Dragaera. I'm told French > > >> cursing > > >> is religious. U.S. tends to be sexual and scatological. I > > >> wonder how > > >> this varies around our world - and around Vlad's world. > > > > > > Well Holy Mary, mother-of-God, we don't have any religious swearing > > > in the U.S. Christ, I mean, we're more godfearing folk than that. > > > Hell, I'll wager we have fewer religious swears than any other > > > language on earth, goddamit! > > > > > > Majikjon > > > > Jesus H Christ, can't you stick to the point? Holy Moses! Jeez! > > > > >Just reading the above made me reflect -- I assumed, reading the "Holy >Mary" >stuff, that it came from a more-religious part of the US. Automatically. >And when I noticed myself assuming it, I wondered if maybe >more-religiously-inclined cultures (or in the US, subcultures) will tend to >swear more religiously. Or perhaps more recognizably religiously. >("Zounds", "Bloody" etc being no longer recognizably religious despite >their >origin, and "Jeez" starting to lose it). > >I lived in Italy for a few years and noticed that their swearing was >usually >either religious, or sacred/profane mixes, (e.g. porcodio -- "pig-god"). >They occasionally threw in "puttana" as somewhere in between (porca puttana >-- pig-whore) and it was considered really offensive. They had slang for >sexual/scatological bits and used them cheerfully as profanities, but they >had less power than the religious ones. And yes, they were all devout >catholics. > > > >-- >\Steve the Younger Swedish swearing is almost exclusively concerned with the netherworld, it's hells devils all the way. And while Sweden is one of the most irreligious countries in the world today, religion used to be very important (see the thirty years war). We also swear by the number seventeen, btw. :) "Sjutton ocks?" means "Seventeen also"... /mrtn From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jan 8 07:59:00 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:59:00 +0100 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? References: <20060101045940.21744.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43B8744C.5060204@comcast.net> <43BC7AEF.1070604@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601042200i53055065g7152967195b81aea@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051112m1e7b84bbl667838e827e715d8@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601051333i5fce0d49qd6cfd0b4873ec542@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C136C3.66@ecity.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > He has a soft spot for people who are loyal to him. Not so much with > > the everyone else. > > True, but I guess it's no wonder he didn't make it in the Jhereg, > long-term. The bosses--who are presumably the "archetypical" > Jhereg--are not very much like him. Far more cold-blooded, less touchy > about personal honor, willing as Sethra said to discuss a business > deal no matter how they were brought into it. I wonder what Dolivar > was like. Sethra knew Dolivar, though. Guess the question is whether she knew Vlad was a reincarnated Dolivar at that time or not. If she did know, and she still didn't expect Vlad to react like that [1], hm - any chance the Final Contract will have Dolivar/Vlad (re)admitted into the House of the Dragon? Karen [1] I'm assuming a Dragon would have reacted similarly. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 8 19:52:26 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:52:26 EST Subject: house art Message-ID: In a message dated 12/29/2005 5:51:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: Hi all, As promised here is the first wave of house art - Please let me know what you all think. If you have or know of other art that needs to be considered for this project let me know ASAP. Thanks, Rion Eek...I was just wondering why no one has replied from the dragaera list to your post...and I checked and your post did not get to the list. I bet it was because of the attachment. I do not think anyone got your email but me and the other person you sent it to. Sorry, it took so long for me to figure it out. I have Serenity on my mind. Here are my thoughts: Cool. Love them. Hope you are going to sell them online and not just at the International Burst Fan Summit http://www.opusfest.com May 19-21, 2006 Hyatt DTC, Denver, CO. Are these the ones Steve has approved? jhereg It is hard to think of jhereg as being so batlike. But if Steve approved. iorich has 4 legs. That is funny...because everyone thinks a jhereg has 4 legs. I like phoenix1 better than phoenix2. I like tsalmoth2 better than tsalmoth1. Sad No dragon No lyron No vallista No teckla NEED THE ORCA color one and the DZUR one. Maybe more. Thank Rion. From carpovita at earthlink.net Sun Jan 8 20:07:51 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 21:07:51 -0700 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have a dragon to send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the list before the next wave. Any ideas folks? -----Original Message----- From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com [mailto:FRIEDA2133 at aol.com] Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:52 PM To: carpovita at earthlink.net; katt_jean at sbcglobal.net; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: house art In a message dated 12/29/2005 5:51:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: Hi all, As promised here is the first wave of house art - Please let me know what you all think. If you have or know of other art that needs to be considered for this project let me know ASAP. Thanks, Rion Eek...I was just wondering why no one has replied from the dragaera list to your post...and I checked and your post did not get to the list. I bet it was because of the attachment. I do not think anyone got your email but me and the other person you sent it to. Sorry, it took so long for me to figure it out. I have Serenity on my mind. Here are my thoughts: Cool. Love them. Hope you are going to sell them online and not just at the International Burst Fan Summit http://www.opusfest.com May 19-21, 2006 Hyatt DTC, Denver, CO. Are these the ones Steve has approved? jhereg It is hard to think of jhereg as being so batlike. But if Steve approved. iorich has 4 legs. That is funny...because everyone thinks a jhereg has 4 legs. I like phoenix1 better than phoenix2. I like tsalmoth2 better than tsalmoth1. Sad No dragon No lyron No vallista No teckla NEED THE ORCA color one and the DZUR one. Maybe more. Thank Rion. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 8 20:18:02 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:18:02 EST Subject: house art Message-ID: <7e.7881c12e.30f33dfa@aol.com> In a message dated 1/8/2006 11:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, carpovita at earthlink.net writes: The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have a dragon to send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the list before the next wave. Any ideas folks? If you email them to David Dyer-Bennet, I bet he could put them on a webpage like he did the Dragaeran Houses and then he could tell us where the art is. I think this is his email dd-b at dd-b.net David, what do you think? From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 23:29:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:29:39 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> References: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: On 1/8/06, Rion Bergquist wrote: > The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have a dragon to > send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the list before the > next wave. Any ideas folks? > Hm. Would it not be possible to put these images on the opusfest.com web server itself? That is, create a directory (for example, /dragaera-art-test , or whatever you choose), and place the files there, and simply post the URL of this location to the list? If, for whatever reason, that it not possible, well, if you send the images directly to myself or Jon Lincicum (whose e-mail is in the CC:), one of us will be easily able to upload these noble images to the Lyorn Records Wikicity, and can then send the URL out to the list, as described. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jan 8 23:42:35 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:42:35 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/06, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > International Burst Fan Summit http://www.opusfest.com May 19-21, 2006 > Hyatt DTC, Denver, CO. Copy and paste is usually your friend, but it can some times be a treacherous one. Exempli gratia: "Burst" A summit for burst fans would no doubt be a very, very messy event indeed. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 06:26:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:26:34 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/08/06 11:42 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: house art > A summit for burst fans would no doubt be a very, very messy event indeed. I dunno, at some cons it seems like most of the fans are about to "burst" out of their clothing. Note to Trekkies: Wearing a spandex Captain-Kirk shirt is only a good idea if you hit the gym once in a while. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060109/59a88ec5/attachment-0001.html From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:26:09 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:26:09 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:47 AM Subject: Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? > In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:42:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, > howard at brazee.net writes: > And once identified, when and how did they start honing him? > IMO: In My Opinion > > When: Since Dolivar came to their attention and then died. > Or could have been even before Dolivar. > > How: Having Dolivar be reincarnated into each of the different houses. I > think Teckla would be after Dolivar to put fear into him. When done with the > 17 houses--Easterner. > > Dragon > Teckla > ... > Dzur > Tiassa > Easterner > > No proof...just my wild speculation that no one else seems to believe in. > Steve will show you one day! Or maybe not. Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would think that being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such insight into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various houses. IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ have are retained (Kieron) 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back as undead (Sethra) 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants (Purple Robes) or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the specific skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. (Vlad) So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. Jeff From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:47:03 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:47:03 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: > So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are > usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. It probably involves lots of food and klava. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:50:23 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:50:23 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maximilian Wilson" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:47 AM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: > So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are > usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. It probably involves lots of food and klava. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. By Verra's extra knuckles, I almost think that you are right!! Jeff From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 9 07:56:57 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:56:57 -0800 Subject: house art In-Reply-To: <003c01c614d2$42dc9d80$0200a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: <273f01c61535$51905020$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > The art I sent was what I have thus far, although I also have > a dragon to > send - but I was hoping to get the first batch posted to the > list before the > next wave. Any ideas folks? > There are any number of photo/art hosting sites available for free. Some will limit your bandwidth to keep costs down, and/or feature banner ads of various kinds. http://www.imagedump.com http://www.photobucket.com http://www.webshots.com If you have a yahoo email account, you also have a photos database that you can use to feature your pictures/art as well. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 07:57:46 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:57:46 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 07:47 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: >> So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are >> usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. > >It probably involves lots of food and klava. A more interesting question might be: Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their control, or will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they thought they desired?) Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her "tool", or will his plans come to be more important than hers? I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will of his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's one I find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's take on it. Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 9 08:25:30 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:25:30 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> I think he will become Verra's lover in order to produce the Kwisatz Haderach who will save Dragaera from the Jenoine... On Jan 9, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: >> So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but >> Steve's are >> usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. > > It probably involves lots of food and klava. > > Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > listinfo/dragaera From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 09:23:09 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:23:09 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Gorelick" To: "Maximilian Wilson" Cc: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:25 AM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) > I think he will become Verra's lover in order to produce the Kwisatz > Haderach who will save Dragaera from the Jenoine... > Is Vlad a killing word? I could see Taltos being one. . . Jeff -whose name is not a killing word, despite what my kids think. From scs at di.org Mon Jan 9 09:17:00 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:17:00 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> Message-ID: <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From goannaman at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 10:02:19 2006 From: goannaman at gmail.com (Jay Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:02:19 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > -- I respectfully disagree. I don't think the Easterners will ever find a place within the cycle, except as Teckla or Jhereg. On a related note, if an Easterner purchased a high enough title in the Jhereg, could they be considered a canidate for heir? From steve at romlin.com Mon Jan 9 10:12:51 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:12:51 +0100 Subject: Cool! Message-ID: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Steve Simmons > To: Kenneth Gorelick > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:17:00 -0500 > Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know > about Kragar?) > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. -- \Steve From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 10:22:27 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:22:27 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jay Smith Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 10:02 AM To Steve Simmons cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: >> >> Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the >> East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. >> -- > >I respectfully disagree. > >I don't think the Easterners will ever find a place within the cycle, except >as Teckla or Jhereg. I've always half expected Vlad to have a hand in undoing the cycle... Though the dating in the front matter of the Paarfi books suggests this hasn't happened by well into Norathar's reign, which should be well after Vlad's death, unless he somehow has an unusually long life. >On a related note, if an Easterner purchased a high enough title in the >Jhereg, could they be considered a canidate for heir? I've always gotten the impression that the Jhereg heir was just the one with so much money and power that no one else could touch him... Not so much a matter of "buying a high enough title" as it is a matter of having a title; then using assassination, fear, money, intimidation, and other nasty mafia-style tactics to rise to the top of the heap and stay there. (Given the difference in life-spans, it seems quite unlikely that any Easterner would have the time to overcome the power and resources of whichever Dragaeran happens to sit on top of the Jhereg Council at the moment... A man Vlad was even /less/ willing to consider taking out that the Empress herself, I might add.) Vlad is precocious, however, and a Great Weapon probably goes a long way. Who can say? Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 9 10:32:16 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:32:16 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > "tool", or > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > *opinion alert!* I think it's going a bit too far to say that Verra considers Vlad to be a "tool". I don't think he's a "tool" to her any more than Sticks or Glowbug would be a "tool" to Vlad. His relationship to Verra is not to far different from his relationship to Sethra, actually, except that Sethra has claim to a fair amount of friendship that Verra does not. The Lords of Judgement are a puzzle. None of them appear to be omniscient nor omnipresent, so the Dragaeran view of them may actually be more correct than the Eastern view. Most of them don't even know what phase the cycle is in without looking at it (though that may be an effect of the way time flows or doesn't flow in the Halls). Verra has said that she interferes in Vlad's life in order to "make him useful". She has certainly intervened in his favor and she's certainly been involved in putting him into situations where his skills were up to the task at hand. However, she's never left him without a choice. She's never said "you'll go do this thing and you'll smile while you do it". Faced with the unexpected prospect of an "employee" carrying a potentially lethal artifact, she didn't take it or force him to give it up or punish him or destroy him. She's even taken a certain amount of lip from him (up to a point). Of course, that's just the kind of god she is. She doesn't thrive on formality like some others might. In any case, I don't think Vlad is being "honed" for any particular purpose, at least not by Verra. She has a "personal" relationship with Vlad because chance or destiny have brought him into her circle of influence. Devera likes him. Her daughter likes him. Her "priest", Morollan, likes him. He's handy for jobs that her other "tools" couldn't neccesarily do. She has some affection for Easterners anyway, and I like to think that Noish-pa was probably a "devout" follower for however you measure "devout" in Fenario, so she might already have favored his family in some respect or other. (Sethra's affection for Vlad might be a strike against him considering how Verra appears to feel about Sethra.) The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't know what she's doing half the time. As Vlad discovers, the Gods are no better informed on many things than the mortal denizens of the world are. (See once again the references to the state of the cycle.) To be a "tool", Verra would have to have a plan and I don't think any of the Lords of Judgement have a plan. They have so far been purely reactive. The one case of Verra implementing a plan in _Phoenix_ went awry rather quickly... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 10:45:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:45:54 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 10:32 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >> Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her >> "tool", or >> will his plans come to be more important than hers? >> > >*opinion alert!* > >I think it's going a bit too far to say that Verra considers Vlad to be a >"tool". I don't think he's a "tool" to her any more than Sticks or Glowbug >would be a "tool" to Vlad. His relationship to Verra is not to far different >from his relationship to Sethra, actually, except that Sethra has claim to a >fair amount of friendship that Verra does not. You see, this is why I put "tool" in quotes... ;-) I just recently re-read /Issola/, and it's interesting to re-visit the part with Vlad/Teldra talking to Verra in her halls. "I refuse to allow you to be a useless boil on the hindquarters of the world." (or some such.) But there's also Sethra's comments at the end of the second chapter about how Vlad has always been "Happier being just used as a tool, and not given explanations, no matter how much you ask for them." That seems pretty appropriate to this discussion. >The Lords of Judgement are a puzzle. None of them appear to be omniscient >nor omnipresent, so the Dragaeran view of them may actually be more correct >than the Eastern view. Most of them don't even know what phase the cycle is >in without looking at it (though that may be an effect of the way time flows >or doesn't flow in the Halls). "More" correct perhaps. Verra has a good bit in /Taltos/ where she tries to describe the difference between the Eastern view and the Dragaeran view of the gods. The "I was never human, but if I had been, I wouldn't be know..." speech. >Verra has said that she interferes in Vlad's life in order to "make him >useful". She has certainly intervened in his favor and she's certainly been >involved in putting him into situations where his skills were up to the task >at hand. However, she's never left him without a choice. She's never said It seems (to me) that in sending him back to face the Jenoine in /Issola/ she doesn't give him much of a choice, but I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on your point, here. >probably a "devout" follower for however you measure "devout" in Fenario, so >she might already have favored his family in some respect or other. >(Sethra's affection for Vlad might be a strike against him considering how >Verra appears to feel about Sethra.) I think Verra/Sethra's disdain for each other comes across as a bit more of a friendly rivalry. Certainly, Verra is willing to work with her (re: the last attack by the Jenoine on the Lesser Sea) when the need arises. Verra may just be bitter because Sethra snubbed her when Sethra was offered godhood. >The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't >know what she's doing half the time. As Vlad discovers, the Gods are no >better informed on many things than the mortal denizens of the world are. >(See once again the references to the state of the cycle.) To be a "tool", >Verra would have to have a plan and I don't think any of the Lords of >Judgement have a plan. They have so far been purely reactive. The one case >of Verra implementing a plan in _Phoenix_ went awry rather quickly... I don't know if we really have enough information to go on here. Certainly, Verra is not "all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful" in the sense of the god figures of this world usually are. But lack of Omnipotence and Omnicscience doesn't mean that she's just totally making it up as she goes along. That's Vlad's specialty, after all. I guess you'd have to ask Trout. Majikjon From rascaltkatt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 11:31:59 2006 From: rascaltkatt at yahoo.com (Scott Kreitzer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:31:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad Message-ID: <20060109193159.29377.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> A more interesting question might be: Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their control, or will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they thought they desired?) Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her "tool", or will his plans come to be more important than hers? I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will of his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's one I find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's take on it. Majikjon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wasn't Verra an example of a "tool that evolves to supercede the will of his masters"? Woudn't that be ironic? scott --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 9 11:32:31 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:32:31 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C2BA4F.6070602@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would think that >being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. >However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such insight >into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various houses. >IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: > > > > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. With the genetic element involved, I don't know what rights your children have. Could someone be a member of 17 houses? Is it advantageous to have a Phoenix coming from your house? Are there Dragaerans who are not members of any house? Yes - are there any on the mainland? What happens when someone is kicked out of the Teklas? From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 9 11:36:43 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:36:43 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C2BB4B.3080703@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >A more interesting question might be: > >Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their control, or >will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that >which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they >thought they desired?) > >Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her "tool", or >will his plans come to be more important than hers? > >I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will of >his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's one I >find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's >take on it. > >Majikjon > > It won't be an either-or. But if one faction ends up "winning", my bet is on the Serioli. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 9 11:41:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/9/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > So what is Vlads ultimate purpose? I have my own ideas, but Steve's are > > usually cooler, so I will wait for him to share with us. > > It probably involves lots of food and klava. I assumed that's what "burst" was about. From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 9 11:59:31 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:59:31 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060109193159.29377.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060109193159.29377.qmail@web60125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2006, at 2:31 PM, Scott Kreitzer wrote: > A more interesting question might be: > > Will those trying to use Vlad find that he's still under their > control, > or > will Vlad find his *own* purpose, perhaps one that is contrary to that > which the powers-that-be-desire? (Or at least, contrary to what they > thought they desired?) > > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > "tool", or > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > > I suppose the concept of the "tool that evolves to supercede the will > of > his masters" is a story that has been played out before, but it's > one I > find to be quite compelling, and it would be interesting to see SKZB's > take on it. > > Majikjon > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------- > > Wasn't Verra an example of a "tool that evolves to supercede the > will > of his masters"? Woudn't that be ironic? > > scott > > How bout Verra turns Vlad into a demon--a god-like being that can be summoned at need? That, then is the meaning of the term "Demon Goddess"--that she is a goddess of demons... From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:19:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:19:39 -0800 Subject: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar? In-Reply-To: <20060109185106.12986.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060109185106.12986.qmail@web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Sokerchick wrote: > > > > Psychologically, I think it entirely makes sense that he trusts her > > completely, despite not knowing a whole lot about her or her > > background. > > I think that it's totally believable that Vlad Trust Keira. Why... Because > when he first met her he was a teenage (? maybe younger ?) human. And she > was the first Drageraen that was kind to him and a guy had just been killed > in his fathers resturant. Then she helped him out taught him how to move > and be invisible when he wanted to. Why shouldn't he trust her implicitly? > > She was his first real friend as far as I can tell. His father wouldn't let > him associate with other humans and Drageraens wouldn't care if he was lying > dead in a gutter. Then she comes along and helps him shows kindness toward > him. That breed some serious trust and loyalty. Espically in a kid who is > looking for affection. > (sending this on to the list) Exactly. You have precisely expanded on my own thoughts on the matter. From scs at di.org Mon Jan 9 12:21:16 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:21:16 -0500 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:12:51PM +0100, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in three places at once. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:38:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:38:43 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > I just recently re-read /Issola/, and it's interesting to re-visit the > part with Vlad/Teldra talking to Verra in her halls. > > "I refuse to allow you to be a useless boil on the hindquarters of the > world." (or some such.) > > But there's also Sethra's comments at the end of the second chapter about > how Vlad has always been "Happier being just used as a tool, and not given > explanations, no matter how much you ask for them." That seems pretty > appropriate to this discussion. > Hm. And Kiera would have more knowledge of just how much Vlad has been used as a tool (by the Jhereg, for those various assassinations). And yet, I think Sethra's wrong, above. In fact, I think she has neglected to take into account that (a) people can change, and (b) Easterners, having shorter lives, when they do change, change much faster than the Dragaerans that she's more used to dealing with. And Vlad has definitely been changing in the past few years of his exile. And, really, he *wasn't* happy about being used as a tool without his knowledge. I was thinking about that chapter in /Issola/ as well, recently - Vlad is *very* pissy with Sethra, at the start there. Speculating about that scene, perhaps he felt a bit betrayed by someone he thought he could trust. That is, sitting in Dzur Mountain, as he had been those (relatively few) years before when he first met Sethra, it may have occurred to him that his button-man Quion might have been discovered to have been thinking of skipping out with a chunk of gold by Kiera, and that's how *that* particular manipulation was set up. So Vlad ranted at Sethra a bit when he remembered that/deduced that. Perhaps. Or, heck, maybe he figured that Kiera "conspired" with Quion on the embezzlement (with any reservations Quion might have had having been removed by Morrolan's idea-implantation). At any rate, definitely a reason to be pissy. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 12:43:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:43:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 12:38 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) >Hm. And Kiera would have more knowledge of just how much Vlad has >been used as a tool (by the Jhereg, for those various assassinations). > >And yet, I think Sethra's wrong, above. In fact, I think she has >neglected to take into account that (a) people can change, and (b) >Easterners, having shorter lives, when they do change, change much >faster than the Dragaerans that she's more used to dealing with. And >Vlad has definitely been changing in the past few years of his exile. >And, really, he *wasn't* happy about being used as a tool without his >knowledge. Well, as I believe someone else said recently, nobody's 100% consistent. This includes Vlad, Sethra, and SKZB. >I was thinking about that chapter in /Issola/ as well, recently - Vlad >is *very* pissy with Sethra, at the start there. Speculating about >that scene, perhaps he felt a bit betrayed by someone he thought he >could trust. That is, sitting in Dzur Mountain, as he had been those >(relatively few) years before when he first met Sethra, it may have >occurred to him that his button-man Quion might have been discovered >to have been thinking of skipping out with a chunk of gold by Kiera, >and that's how *that* particular manipulation was set up. So Vlad >ranted at Sethra a bit when he remembered that/deduced that. Perhaps. > Or, heck, maybe he figured that Kiera "conspired" with Quion on the >embezzlement (with any reservations Quion might have had having been >removed by Morrolan's idea-implantation). At any rate, definitely a >reason to be pissy. Never underestimate the power of the hissy-cow. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060109/4b5ac211/attachment-0001.htm From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:49:05 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:49:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > I've always gotten the impression that the Jhereg heir was just the one > with so much money and power that no one else could touch him... Not so > much a matter of "buying a high enough title" as it is a matter of having > a title; then using assassination, fear, money, intimidation, and other > nasty mafia-style tactics to rise to the top of the heap and stay there. I think it's debateable. The Organization appears to be distinct from the aristocratic hierarchy. It could just as easily be that the Jhereg Heir is mostly a figurehead who is allowed to do whatever he wants, except with the restriction that the Jhereg Council is not made unhappy by what he does, and the Organization is thus able to do whatever it pleases, even when the Heir becomes the Emperor. In other words, the Jhereg aristocracy always defers to the Organization in matters pertaining to the Organization. But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. From scs at di.org Mon Jan 9 12:18:57 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060109201857.GA29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 10:32:16AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > > "tool", or > > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't > know what she's doing half the time . . . Verra has tasked Sethra with the problem. And IMnotsoHO Sethra has a plan. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 12:51:42 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:51:42 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2BA4F.6070602@brazee.net> References: <43C2BA4F.6070602@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. Who? Where? When? From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 9 13:16:44 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:16:44 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39d401c61561$fdea7590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >It seems (to me) that in sending him back to face the Jenoine in /Issola/ >she doesn't give him much of a choice, but I'd be interested in hearing you >elaborate on your point, here. I don't know that it's a question of choice in this case. There was never any question of Vlad going back. He'd gone to a fair amount of trouble to reach Morollan and Alieara in the first place. His visit with Verra happened as a way to both warn her and to get some advice on how to handle the situation. It wasn't an attempt to escape it. >Certainly, Verra is not "all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful" in the sense of >the god figures of this world usually are. But lack of Omnipotence and Omnicscience >doesn't mean that she's just totally making it up as she goes along. That's Vlad's >specialty, after all. In Verra's case, she's influenced by her Aspect as the goddess of, hmm, "arbitrariness" or "capriciousness" isn't right but I don't remember exactly how Teldra characterized her. In any case, her basic nature would be "chaotic" compared to most of the Lords we've been introduced to. Her strength is that she acts when others are paralyzed by their indecision and formality. Her weakness is that her actions are seldom as well-formulated as they should be and can appear to the uninitiated as being entirely random or even malicious. I imagine that she's pretty much always making it up as she goes along. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 13:17:59 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:17:59 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) References: <28ea01c6154b$044c0820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060109201857.GA29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Scott Schultz" Cc: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) > On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 10:32:16AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Thinking primarily of Verra here, will Vlad truly remain her > > > "tool", or > > > will his plans come to be more important than hers? > > > The problem with the "tool" line of thought is that Verra herself doesn't > > know what she's doing half the time . . . > > Verra has tasked Sethra with the problem. And IMnotsoHO Sethra has a > plan. > -- > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." > -- Albert Einstein Well, she has a way. That's as good as a plan, isn't it? Jeff -had a plan, but it didn't survive contact. Currently making due with force of will. From tsarren at alyra.org Mon Jan 9 13:26:09 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:26:09 -0600 Subject: OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 08:26:09AM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > > Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would think that > being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. > However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such insight > into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various houses. > IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: > > 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ have are > retained (Kieron) > > 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back as undead > (Sethra) > > 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants (Purple Robes) > or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. > > 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the specific > skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. (Vlad) Is it just me or should those sentences open with "Those who" instead of "Those that", since the subjects are people? There should be a grammar fiend or three on this list who would know. Kat From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 13:35:45 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:35:45 -0700 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > three places at once. ??? -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 13:39:27 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:39:27 -0700 Subject: Cool! References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Steve Rapaport" Cc: Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Cool! > On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:12:51PM +0100, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > > > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. > > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > three places at once. > -- > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." > -- Albert Einstein Or a Demon, at any rate. We shall see. . . . Jeff -has never been more than one place at a time without the assistance of alcohol. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 13:40:11 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:40:11 -0800 Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:35 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Cool! >On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: >> Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know >> Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in >> three places at once. > >??? Well, I think he's referring to the second escape attempt from the Jenoine's place. Vlad ends up experiencing three separate experiences simultaneously, which is confusing to read until you break each bit up and read every third one as a separate thread. I would contend that this doesn't so much give Vlad the ability to be three places at once, so much as it shows how many "Places" the Jenoine have (by their own conception of "place") all within the same phsyical location (as WE se "place"). At least, that's what I thought SKZB was going for. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 9 13:41:09 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest > Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is > synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. Zerika's comments to Vlad lead me to believe the above. What role the Left Hand plays here strikes me as unclear, perhaps unplausibly so. From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jan 9 13:50:47 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:50:47 -0500 Subject: OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> References: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> Message-ID: <3BD42EA1-7D10-451C-876A-FA8E22CC2A32@mac.com> On Jan 9, 2006, at 4:26 PM, Tsarren wrote: > On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 08:26:09AM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> Well, technically, Vlad/Dolivar already was a Dragon, and I would >> think that >> being houseless in the early days of the empire would teach him fear. >> However, this would go a long way to explaining how Vlad has such >> insight >> into the "Dragearean Point of View" when dealing with the various >> houses. >> IIRC correctly, kept in the halls have 4 destinations: >> >> 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ >> have are >> retained (Kieron) >> >> 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back >> as undead >> (Sethra) >> >> 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants >> (Purple Robes) >> or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. >> >> 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the >> specific >> skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. >> (Vlad) > > Is it just me or should those sentences open with "Those who" > instead of > "Those that", since the subjects are people? There should be a > grammar > fiend or three on this list who would know. > > Kat Paging Dr. Whom! Paging Dr. Whom! When the pronoun is no object! From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 9 14:17:06 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:17:06 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:41 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest >> Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is >> synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. > >Zerika's comments to Vlad lead me to believe the above. What role >the Left Hand plays here strikes me as unclear, perhaps unplausibly so. Paarfi talks at one point (In TPG, I think) about how the Jhereg take over the Orb due to the rule of the Vallista applying the taxation laws more rigourously than the other houses (presumably to pay for all their building projects) which allows the Jhereg to become rich, and then use their own power and influence to put their own candidate on the throne. Whether this Emperor candidate is the same individual as the Head of the Council, I would say, depends on whether the Head of the Council happens to be the type of person who likes to take personal control of things, or is the type who likes to rule from behind the scenes. (As Prime Minister, maybe, or even Discreet). I would imagine that Davdi's probably correct, there likely have been both types during different cycles. And the leader of the Left Hand becomes Court Wizard, of course. Probably drives the Athyra of the period absolutely nuts. Majikjon From rone at ennui.org Mon Jan 9 14:55:03 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:55:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. Who? Where? When? I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly "citizenship". rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From rone at ennui.org Mon Jan 9 14:56:41 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060109225641.8051A6848C@boredom.ennui.org> Maximilian Wilson writes: On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > three places at once. ??? The bit where Vlad starts to go through the gate but it goes all bonkers. There's three points of view in that somewhat confusing sequence, after which Vlad can see things differently in the room. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:08:01 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:08:01 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > And the leader of the Left Hand becomes Court Wizard, of course. Probably > drives the Athyra of the period absolutely nuts. > Good point. Another possibility that occurred to me was the the leader of the Left Hand might become Consort. Very much a marriage of convenience, that. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:11:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:11:02 -0800 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <20060109225641.8051A6848C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> <20060109225641.8051A6848C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, rone wrote: > Maximilian Wilson writes: > On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > > three places at once. > ??? > > The bit where Vlad starts to go through the gate but it goes all > bonkers. There's three points of view in that somewhat confusing > sequence, after which Vlad can see things differently in the room. > And, after checking with "search inside" and booksearch, I can confidently report that the scene is in chapter 9, and begins with "I took a step forward". From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:14:52 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:14:52 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/9/06, rone wrote: > Davdi Silverrock writes: > On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > >> Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. > >Who? Where? When? > > I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly > "citizenship". > Well, I nearly think I agree with you in that. Another example: Kytraan e'Lanya wore Phoenix livery (at the beginning of tPotD, which I just re-read that section of recently), but that doesn't make him Dragon/Phoenix. From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Jan 9 14:20:41 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:20:41 -0500 Subject: Cool! In-Reply-To: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060109171941.0255ffc0@cox.net> At 03:21 PM 1/9/2006, Steve Simmons wrote: >On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:12:51PM +0100, Steve Rapaport wrote: > > > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > > > That's the coolest speculation I've seen in a year. > >Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know >Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in >three places at once. That one one of the coolest pieces of writing I have read. I had to re=read it several times before I caught on. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:02:18 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:02:18 -0800 Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That would actually be cool- Vlad becoming a god without knowing it. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >To: Maximilian Wilson >CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info,Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) >Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:40:11 -0800 > >Maximilian Wilson >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >01/09/06 01:35 PM > >To >Dragaera List >cc > >Subject >Re: Cool! > > > > > > > >On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > >> Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > >> Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > >> three places at once. > > > >??? > >Well, I think he's referring to the second escape attempt from the >Jenoine's place. > >Vlad ends up experiencing three separate experiences simultaneously, which >is confusing to read until you break each bit up and read every third one >as a separate thread. > >I would contend that this doesn't so much give Vlad the ability to be >three places at once, so much as it shows how many "Places" the Jenoine >have (by their own conception of "place") all within the same phsyical >location (as WE se "place"). > >At least, that's what I thought SKZB was going for. > >Majikjon From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jan 9 09:11:00 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:11:00 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Jay Smith wrote: > > > Actually, I think Vlad is (unbeknownst to him) founding the House of the > > East, which will replace Phoenix in the cycle. > > -- > > I respectfully disagree. > > I don't think the Easterners will ever find a place within the cycle, except > as Teckla or Jhereg. Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a Dragaeran? And Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the history of Zerika I. Anyway, if it is being an Easterner and knowing that creating Chaos is possible, it didn't seem to require anything more from Vlad, other than being desperate enough to try. If this theory is correct, well, I can see some reasons for the Dragaerans to decide it might be better to co-opt the Easterners by at least placing them under the authority of the Cycle, then letting them be outside it and subject to random persecution and maybe sometimes feeling they didn't have anything else to lose....... ;) Possibly related - does anyone else get the feeling that Dragaeran society doesn't really seem to fit a belief that they can tell who a reincarnated soul once was in a previous life? Like, if that's the case, why was Norathar picked as Dragon Heir because she was an e'Lanya, rather than because she was the reincarnation of the last Dragon Empress? Similarly, why was Aliera Dragon Heir because of her Dad, rather than because she was the sister of Kieron the Conqueror and Kieron hadn't shown up yet? Maybe that's the reason I've always wondered if Aliera or Sethra hit Vlad with a gullibility spell when they told him that he once was Dolivar, and Dragaerans really can't tell who someone was in a previous life, they just know that reincarnation happens. In which case, creating raw Chaos might definitely be related to being an Easterner. (BTW - does anyone know of any textevd that 'souls' have to be reincarnated in the body of one of their line? If not, the LoJ really should have taken advantage of that and reincarnated some of their more able souls into the body of an e'Kieron to get that ability in future versions). Karen From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 9 16:10:59 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:10:59 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> rone wrote: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. > Who? Where? When? > >I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >"citizenship". > >rone > > I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and Krager. Was I mistaken? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 9 16:27:49 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, James Griffin wrote: > That would actually be cool- Vlad becoming a god without knowing it. Vespasian on his deathbed: "Alas, I think I'm becoming a god" (vae puto deus fio). From rone at ennui.org Mon Jan 9 16:45:44 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:45:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060110004544.69B8D685E6@boredom.ennui.org> Howard Brazee writes: rone wrote: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. > > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. > Who? Where? When? >I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >"citizenship". I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and Krager. Was I mistaken? That was no Teckla, and neither is Kragar. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:53:35 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 17:53:35 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601091653h5d5d602k986ef64a810736e9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and > Krager. Was I mistaken? Are you conflating "Teckla" with "cross-breed" or "Houseless"? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 9 16:55:13 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:55:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> References: <20060109225503.ED8C068489@boredom.ennui.org> <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43C305F1.1000508@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > rone wrote: > >> Davdi Silverrock writes: >> On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. >> > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. >> Who? Where? When? >> >> I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >> "citizenship". >> >> rone >> >> > I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and > Krager. Was I mistaken? Mellar: A half-breed with Jhereg on one side and Dzur/Dragon on the other. Kragar: A full-breed Dragon (so far as we know, see Davdi's theory about how he might be a crossbreed) who was kicked out of the house. At no point did either of these have "dual" citizenship. Mellar wasn't allowed to join any of the houses of his ancestry (except the Jhereg) due to the fact of his mutt genetics, and Kragar was kicked out of the Dragons (he says) for incompetence, meaning he had to join the Jhereg, or be *without* a house at all. I suppose the only person who might count for "dual" citizenship is Sethra Lavode, (Dragon/Dzur) but nobody is really sure what house she comes from, originally, and she doesn't even get invited to parties (except Morrolan's). And besides, Sethra is the exception for just about any and every rule you can think of. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 9 17:05:24 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:05:24 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601090747o28140385p450120cb1d19b1e4@mail.gmail.com> <8F3ECA66-E0E1-4F01-96E3-339E7FCB669E@mac.com> <20060109171700.GA29454@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43C30854.3040101@comcast.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Possibly related - does anyone else get the feeling that Dragaeran >society doesn't really seem to fit a belief that they can tell who a >reincarnated soul once was in a previous life? Like, if that's the >case, why was Norathar picked as Dragon Heir because she was an e'Lanya, >rather than because she was the reincarnation of the last Dragon >Empress? Similarly, why was Aliera Dragon Heir because of her Dad, >rather than because she was the sister of Kieron the Conqueror and >Kieron hadn't shown up yet? Maybe that's the reason I've always >wondered if Aliera or Sethra hit Vlad with a gullibility spell when they >told him that he once was Dolivar, and Dragaerans really can't tell who >someone was in a previous life, they just know that reincarnation >happens. In which case, creating raw Chaos might definitely be related >to being an Easterner. > >(BTW - does anyone know of any textevd that 'souls' have to be >reincarnated in the body of one of their line? If not, the LoJ really >should have taken advantage of that and reincarnated some of their more >able souls into the body of an e'Kieron to get that ability in future >versions). > I think it would help to remember that Vlad hangs out with some exceptional people. Aliera telling Vlad he's a reincarnation of someone else's soul (as accurate as that assesment may be) doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that most other Dragaerans would be likely to buy. Aliera and Sethra believe it, but in the world of Dragaera, it's difficult to get any more atypical than Sethra and Aliera. Certainly the concept of the soul, reincarnation and the undead are matter of mechanics to Sethra, The Necromancer, Aliera, and other uber-powerful folks, but they get little more than lip service from most other nobles. (And lets not even begin to talk about all the superstitious Teckla beliefs). Besides, like most political bodies, the Houses go with what keeps people currently alive happy, and don't give much consideration to what some long-dead soul might have to say about things. Majikjon From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Jan 9 17:13:27 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:13:27 -0500 Subject: Cool! (Issola Spoiler) Message-ID: <2ED41323.54FF7508.00048EA6@aol.com> "James Griffin" writes: > That would actually be cool- Vlad becoming a god without knowing it. That's happening to some characters in Steven Erikson's Malazan series. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 20:08:04 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <3BD42EA1-7D10-451C-876A-FA8E22CC2A32@mac.com> Message-ID: <20060110040804.34665.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's a lot of fussing around about this. To me those "those that"s sound awfully awkward. I'd much prefer "those who". Dr. Whom __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 00:25:38 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:25:38 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C2FB93.2080104@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee wrote: >CC: SKZB List >Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know >about Kragar?) >Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:10:59 -0700 > >rone wrote: > >>Davdi Silverrock writes: >> On 1/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> > We have seen a couple of cases of dual or more citizenship. >> > Tekla/Dragon an Tekla/Dzur. >> Who? Where? When? >> >>I think he means lackeys that wear a House's livery, but that's hardly >>"citizenship". >> rone >> >> >I was thinking of a (spoiler) Teckla who became a Dzur via combat. and >Krager. Was I mistaken? > That's not dual, that's one after the other. BTW, I don't think there's any risk in spoiling _Jhereg_, the first book in the series, published 23 years ago. ;) /mrtn From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 06:46:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:46:16 -0800 Subject: OT: grammar In-Reply-To: <20060109212608.GG1622@Durandal> Message-ID: Tsarren Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:26 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject OT: grammar (was: Re: the honing of Vlad) > >On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 08:26:09AM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> 1. Those that are complete and ready for whatever purpose the LoJ have are >> retained (Kieron) >> >> 2. Those that are complete, but still have a purpose are sent back as undead >> (Sethra) >> >> 3. Those that are flawed, or not needed are kept as servants (Purple Robes) >> or dumped as needed for random reincarnation. >> >> 4. Those that are not yet complete are sent back to learn the specific >> skills / mindset to serve the purpose the LoJ have set for them. (Vlad) > >Is it just me or should those sentences open with "Those who" instead of >"Those that", since the subjects are people? There should be a grammar >fiend or three on this list who would know. Given the nature of some of the gods (Ordwynac is a flaming stick, for crying out loud) "Those That" may, in fact, be more correct in many cases. Presumably, the gods started out as souls to be judged, themselves. (If not from Dragaera, then from somewhere else.) Nyssa is a formless cloud, Barlen and Tri'nagore are scaly monsters of some sort, and this doesn't even include the one who's a hyper-intelligent shade of the color blue. Majikjon (Gotta love those subtle HHG references.) From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 07:28:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:28:42 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <39d401c61561$fdea7590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 01:16 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (Some Issola spoilers) >I don't know that it's a question of choice in this case. There was never >any question of Vlad going back. He'd gone to a fair amount of trouble to >reach Morollan and Alieara in the first place. His visit with Verra happened >as a way to both warn her and to get some advice on how to handle the >situation. It wasn't an attempt to escape it. Exactly. Vlad didn't really have a choice, because choosing to just abandon his friends ran contrary to who he was as a person. He could no more choose to do that than he could choose to have blonde hair, or a charming personality. But I think he *was* maybe expecting a little more help from his goddess. Vlad: "What's our secret weapon?" Verra: "Your ability to improvise." Vlad: "You're joking." Verra: "Nope." Sounds like he's being used as a tool to me... But perhaps not especially unwillingly. Verra was, after all, hoping he could rescue his friends, which is certainly something he wanted to have happen. He just didn't have as much confidence in his abilities as Verra did. Of course, Verra knowing what Spellbreaker was, and what it was likely to become in the near-future, may have had something to do with this. >In Verra's case, she's influenced by her Aspect as the goddess of, hmm, >"arbitrariness" or "capriciousness" isn't right but I don't remember exactly >how Teldra characterized her. In any case, her basic nature would be >"chaotic" compared to most of the Lords we've been introduced to. Her >strength is that she acts when others are paralyzed by their indecision and >formality. Her weakness is that her actions are seldom as well-formulated as >they should be and can appear to the uninitiated as being entirely random or >even malicious. I imagine that she's pretty much always making it up as she >goes along. She likes getting her own way, and doing things the way she wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't thought things through and considered repercussions. I think I like the idea that she's simply delegated many of these problems to Sethra. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 10 07:34:55 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:34:55 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Message-ID: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw > Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a > Dragaeran? And > Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the > history of Zerika I. Vlad is not the first Easterner to learn sorcery. He's surely not the first to learn of Elder Sorcery. If manipulating amorphia is an innate ability of Easterners, I'd think that would be common knowledge and that the place of Easterners in Dragaeran society would be quite a bit different than it currently is. > > Anyway, if it is being an Easterner and knowing that creating Chaos is > possible, it didn't seem to require anything more from Vlad, > other than > being desperate enough to try. Don't confuse Dragaeran "genetics" with 21st century Terran genetics. Whatever science it is that Aliera practices, it involves sorcery and likely is only superficially the same as our brand of genetics. The ability to create amorphia from nothing or from existing matter is tied to the soul rather than the body as illustrated by Vlad, so "genetics" as we think about it doesn't really apply. > > Possibly related - does anyone else get the feeling that Dragaeran > society doesn't really seem to fit a belief that they can tell who a > reincarnated soul once was in a previous life? Like, if that's the > case, why was Norathar picked as Dragon Heir because she was > an e'Lanya, > rather than because she was the reincarnation of the last Dragon > Empress? The thing about reincarnation is that it's a new start in life. Having a history doesn't change who you are now. Even if you have an especially adept and powerful mentor like Sethra to lead you in a past-life regression, doing so doesn't somehow transform you back into that person that you used to be. It just gives you some insight into your soul's history and maybe some pointers on what mistakes to avoid this time around. Never mind the legal morass of souls moving around through different Houses in each life. > > (BTW - does anyone know of any textevd that 'souls' have to be > reincarnated in the body of one of their line? Given Vlad's situation, I'd say way have textev that they don't. >If not, the LoJ really > should have taken advantage of that and reincarnated some of > their more > able souls into the body of an e'Kieron to get that ability in future > versions). Here again, the abilty to create amorphia is something the soul has or doesn't have. Getting reincarnated into an E'Lanya wouldn't modify the soul into one that has the ability, I wouldn't think. Rather, the soul would have to be "newly minted" and on its first trip the the cycle of reincarnation. That probably means that there aren't many such souls born nowadays. Frankly, if I was one of the Lords of Judgement I'd want it that way. Over and over again, people who mess with amorphia directly (primarily by Elder Sorcery) seem to just screw up the works for everyone else. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 07:43:24 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:43:24 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C29922.2814@ecity.net> Message-ID: K Kuhn Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/09/06 09:11 AM Please respond to kknolte at ecity.net To Jay Smith cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about Kragar?) >Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw >Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a Dragaeran? And >Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the >history of Zerika I. This seems quite unlikely, since: a) It means everything we've been told about chaos and the ability to control it is incorrect (or at least woefully incomplete). b) It doesn't explain how Aliera is able to use Elder Sorcery c) It doesn't explain why no other Easterners besides Vlad have ever been seen to use Elder Sorcery d) You'd think that if all Easterners could use Elder Sorcery, the Empire and the Orb wouldn't present much of a threat to the East. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 07:51:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:51:26 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 07:34 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >Vlad is not the first Easterner to learn sorcery. He's surely not the first >to learn of Elder Sorcery. If manipulating amorphia is an innate ability of I'm not sure this follows. How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at hand who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. >The thing about reincarnation is that it's a new start in life. Having a >history doesn't change who you are now. Even if you have an especially adept >and powerful mentor like Sethra to lead you in a past-life regression, doing >so doesn't somehow transform you back into that person that you used to be. >It just gives you some insight into your soul's history and maybe some >pointers on what mistakes to avoid this time around. Never mind the legal >morass of souls moving around through different Houses in each life. That's profound, man. It's one of those stickier points to reincarnation that has always bugged me about the concept. >Here again, the abilty to create amorphia is something the soul has or >doesn't have. Getting reincarnated into an E'Lanya wouldn't modify the soul >into one that has the ability, I wouldn't think. Rather, the soul would have >to be "newly minted" and on its first trip the the cycle of reincarnation. >That probably means that there aren't many such souls born nowadays. >Frankly, if I was one of the Lords of Judgement I'd want it that way. Over >and over again, people who mess with amorphia directly (primarily by Elder >Sorcery) seem to just screw up the works for everyone else. I can't think of many e'Kierons left to mint the souls, in fact. Aliera is about it. (Which means Devera, obviously, can use the Elder Sorcery, not that she seems to need this ability.) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 10 08:26:38 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:26:38 -0800 Subject: Speculation about the Lords of Judgement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4f0601c61602$a1fb8980$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Given the nature of some of the gods (Ordwynac is a flaming > stick, for > crying out loud) "Those That" may, in fact, be more correct > in many cases. > Presumably, the gods started out as souls to be judged, > themselves. (If > not from Dragaera, then from somewhere else.) > *opinion alert* I've always assumed that the "gods" as we think of them didn't exist before the Revolt that created the Greater Sea of Chaos. The survivors that became uplifted ("Where were you when the Event happened?" "In Cleveland. Wasn't everybody?") organized and created the Paths, the Halls, and the Empire afterwards as wards against further incursions by the Jenoine. Prior to that, there wasn't anyone around to do the judging and quite possibly no cycle of reincarnation either. As for the forms taken by the Lords of Judgement, it's difficult to say what those represent. Some, like Verra, Kelchor and probably Barlan, represent their original physical forms. Others, like Nyssa and Ordwynac, seem more like representations of their Aspect. Perhaps the true difference between a God and a Demon is that a demon doesn't have an Aspect and is therefore a free agent providing he or she isn't summoned and bound by sorcery. A God is bound to its Aspect, essentially. The god is "free" in the sense that it cannot be bound by a sorceror against its will, but it is constrained in turn by difficulty or inability to conceptualize and behave in contradiction of its Aspect. This would also explain how one could study or train to become a God. A sufficently advanced wizard could presumably perform the operation upon himself even without the help of any of the Lords of Judgement, leading to the current attitudes of the Dragaerans vis-a-vis the Gods being worthy of some respect but not neccesarily reverence or worship. It seems likely that most of the original Lords of Judgement were "demons" in the sense that they had been summoned from another dimension and bound to the service of the Jenoine before or shortly after the Jenoine arrived in Dragaera. This sort of speculation essentially implies that the "angels" of the Revolt, upon seeing their changed situation, voluntarily assumed their various Aspects as protection against being summoned and bound by the Jenoine once again. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 08:25:07 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:25:07 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I'm not sure this follows. > > How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an > Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner > become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at hand > who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? > > Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder > Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. But nobody needed to teach Vlad how to use amorphia. He just did it, under stress. Aliera was needed only to stop him from destroying Adrilankha in the process. So the existence of Vlad's powerful friends makes it not more but less likely that Vlad's Elder Sorcery adventures will get into the history books. (And I thought we were _refuting_ the hypothesis that it was an innate ability of Easterners and not just e'Kierons to use amorphia.) The only thing required in Vlad's first instance were a link to the Orb and a suitable desperation. The only point in favor of this hypothesis is that Easterners with links to the Orb may be a relatively new (post-Interrugnum) thing. Then again, there's that Easterner that Khaavren mistook for an Athyra... Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jan 10 08:27:49 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:27:49 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AD16DB-B6BD-4291-926A-5B15956177E3@mac.com> On Jan 10, 2006, at 10:43 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > K Kuhn > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/09/06 09:11 AM > Please respond to > kknolte at ecity.net > > > To > Jay Smith > cc > Dragaera List > Subject > Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* know about > Kragar?) > > > > >> Question - what if it wasn't Vlad's 'soul' that let him create raw >> Chaos, but the fact that he's an Easterner rather than a >> Dragaeran? And >> Chaos is something the Phoenix have doings with, if you look at the >> history of Zerika I. > > This seems quite unlikely, since: > > a) It means everything we've been told about chaos and the ability to > control it is incorrect (or at least woefully incomplete). > b) It doesn't explain how Aliera is able to use Elder Sorcery > c) It doesn't explain why no other Easterners besides Vlad have > ever been > seen to use Elder Sorcery > d) You'd think that if all Easterners could use Elder Sorcery, the > Empire > and the Orb wouldn't present much of a threat to the East. > > Majikjon > listinfo/dragaera I think you are mistaking elder sorcery with the ability to "create" amorphia. It seems that anyone who is willing can use elder sorcery-- it was the only flavor available during the interregnum, and was used by Sethra, Tazendra and Grita, among others. The ability to CREATE amorphia appears to rest with the heirs of Kieron--to wit, Aliera and Vlad but not Morrolon. Verra seems to have the power to channel and control amorphia, as does Aliera. Vlad can be trained to do so. But these talents are different from the ability to use amorphia for spellcasting...unless there is something we don't know about the ancestry of Tazendra and Grita (I grant we don't know anything about Sethra's ancestors... Ken From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 08:41:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:41:12 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 08:25 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> I'm not sure this follows. >> >> How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an >> Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner >> become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at hand >> who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? >> >> Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder >> Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. > >But nobody needed to teach Vlad how to use amorphia. He just did it, >under stress. Aliera was needed only to stop him from destroying >Adrilankha in the process. So the existence of Vlad's powerful friends >makes it not more but less likely that Vlad's Elder Sorcery adventures >will get into the history books. (And I thought we were _refuting_ the That's why I said "...friends close at hand who can teach him to use those abilities /without destroying himself/..." How likely is it that Vlad's name will get into the history books if the city he's living in had erupted into a 3rd Sea of Amorphia? Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have known it was Vlad? >hypothesis that it was an innate ability of Easterners and not just >e'Kierons to use amorphia.) The only thing required in Vlad's first >instance were a link to the Orb and a suitable desperation. The only >point in favor of this hypothesis is that Easterners with links to the >Orb may be a relatively new (post-Interrugnum) thing. Then again, >there's that Easterner that Khaavren mistook for an Athyra... Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had that little talk with Aliera. And I have my suspicions about how easy it seemed to be for him to tap into that ability. Might have been Verra at work, there, maybe? Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 10 08:49:26 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:49:26 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4f3e01c61605$d1137a40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an Easterner? I'm sure that Vlad is the first and only. However, Karen was speculating that the ability was not tied to the soul at all but to the genetics of Easterners. She was wondering whether Vlad was, in fact, being duped by Aliera and Sethra. I don't believe this is the case. >Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned Elder Sorcery. >Seems likely, in fact. Anyone can practice Elder Sorcery, though I'd agree that Vlad is probably the first Easterner to make much of an attempt at it. The E'Kieron ability is the ability to create it from nothing at all (or from existing matter) and with training to manipulate it rather more easily than the average sorceror. Morollan practices a certain amount of Elder Sorcery and Grita taught herself by "coming to an accomodation" with the Lesser Sea. She implied that anyone with the patience, skill, and daring could do the same thing. Indeed, the Jenoine themselves were eventually able to link to it and harness it so the ability to do so must not be strictly an E'Kieron ability. I'd speculate that the E'Kieron line was, in fact, the crowning glory of the Jenoine scientists and the ultimate goal of their research program. That is, the creation of a slave race that could summon and control amorphia at the behest of their masters. The birth of Kieron and his siblings (or possibly their ancestors a few generations removed) may have been the event that triggered the Revolt as a "now or never" kind of thing. >I can't think of many e'Kierons left to mint the souls, in fact. Aliera is about it. >(Which means Devera, obviously, can use the Elder Sorcery, not that she seems to need >this ability.) If they were all in Dragaera City when the Disaster struck then that might well be the case. Perhaps Verra's liaison with Adron, aside from being pleasurable, was ultimately another one of those "feelings" of hers that turned out to be right in the sense that it preserved the line from destruction. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 10 08:50:21 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:50:21 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <54AD16DB-B6BD-4291-926A-5B15956177E3@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick 01/10/06 08:27 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >I think you are mistaking elder sorcery with the ability to "create" >amorphia. It seems that anyone who is willing can use elder sorcery-- >it was the only flavor available during the interregnum, and was used >by Sethra, Tazendra and Grita, among others. The ability to CREATE >amorphia appears to rest with the heirs of Kieron--to wit, Aliera and >Vlad but not Morrolon. Verra seems to have the power to channel and >control amorphia, as does Aliera. Vlad can be trained to do so. But >these talents are different from the ability to use amorphia for >spellcasting...unless there is something we don't know about the >ancestry of Tazendra and Grita (I grant we don't know anything about >Sethra's ancestors... Okay, this subject came up when we were trying to define "Elder Sorcery" in the wikicity. "Elder Sorcery" is used somewhat interchangably in the texts to refer both to the ability to create and control Amorphia directly using the power of the mind (as Vlad does in /Jhereg/, then again later in /Issola/) and in the use of Chaos stones to channel a flow of amorphia (As used by Adron in FHYA). It should be noted that Chaos stones were invented in the ninth cycle, then banned by Cuorfor II in the eleventh cycle after being used effectively in battle by Dragon soliders. So for nine cycles (about 150,000 years) the first sort of "Elder Sorcery" was all there was. (Which had been banned at the beginning of the Empire.) As to the abilities of Grita, Tazendra et al. to use Elder Sorcery despite not being e'Kierons, well, I can see two possibilities; this is Elder Sorcery of the second sort (Both Grita and Tazendra use staves, maybe these are laced with Chaos stones?), or else maybe the e'Kieron line is the only group of *Dragons* that can use this ability, but this last supposition is not supported by the textev that we have so far. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 08:54:39 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:54:39 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have > known it was Vlad? But since the event isn't remembered, it apparently didn't happen, whether caused by an Easterner or someone else. (And yes, depending on how fast Vlad's little trick had spread, someone might have known it was Vlad. Partly it hinges on whether teleportation is really as new a trick as Paarfi says it is. Certainly there were witnesses, whose memories are accessible through the Orb.) Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had > that little talk with Aliera. Now, this point I may have to concede. Actually I don't remember the sequence of events from "Jarhead" very well. Was he thinking about the Dolivar thing particularly, or just that Elder Sorcery were possible? Scott pointed out that Vlad is certainly not the first to learn of Elder Sorcery. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 10 10:22:34 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:22:34 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C3FB6A.8020602@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >"Elder Sorcery" is used somewhat interchangably in the texts to refer both >to the ability to create and control Amorphia directly using the power of >the mind (as Vlad does in /Jhereg/, then again later in /Issola/) and in >the use of Chaos stones to channel a flow of amorphia (As used by Adron in >FHYA). > > > I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 09:19:38 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:19:38 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) References: Message-ID: > > >On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> I'm not sure this follows. > >> > >> How often does a soul of the e'Kieron line get reincarnated as an > >> Easterner? And how often, when that *does* happen, does the Easterner > >> become aware of that fact while he's alive? And have friends close at > hand > >> who can teach him to use those abilities without destroying himself? > >> > >> Vlad may, in fact, be the first, and only, Easterner who's learned > Elder > >> Sorcery. Seems likely, in fact. > > > >But nobody needed to teach Vlad how to use amorphia. He just did it, > >under stress. Aliera was needed only to stop him from destroying > >Adrilankha in the process. So the existence of Vlad's powerful friends > >makes it not more but less likely that Vlad's Elder Sorcery adventures > >will get into the history books. (And I thought we were _refuting_ the > > That's why I said "...friends close at hand who can teach him to use those > abilities /without destroying himself/..." > > How likely is it that Vlad's name will get into the history books if the > city he's living in had erupted into a 3rd Sea of Amorphia? > > Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have > known it was Vlad? > > >hypothesis that it was an innate ability of Easterners and not just > >e'Kierons to use amorphia.) The only thing required in Vlad's first > >instance were a link to the Orb and a suitable desperation. The only > >point in favor of this hypothesis is that Easterners with links to the > >Orb may be a relatively new (post-Interrugnum) thing. Then again, > >there's that Easterner that Khaavren mistook for an Athyra... > > Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had > that little talk with Aliera. > > And I have my suspicions about how easy it seemed to be for him to tap > into that ability. Might have been Verra at work, there, maybe? > > Majikjon I think you are missing something. Remember the discussion with Aliera. Elder Sorcery is the direct manipulation of amorphia. Anyone (with sufficient skill) can learn to do that. That is what Morrolan does, and what Adron was doing to try take possession of the orb. Creation of amorphia is the aspect that is linked to the E'Kieron line, and that is what Vlad did in the restaurant. Vlad does not actually use Elder Sorcery until Issola, at the stream and again shortly afterwards. Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created if Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia the result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by his spell when it turned against him? Jeff -Prefers emeralds to purple stones. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 10 09:19:43 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:19:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601100825q35ee4039xa92da466a6347e6a@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Note that it seems likely to me that any amorphia generation by an Easterner would likely result in a trip by any witness to an oubliette at best. That Vlad wasn't disappeared now strikes me as surprising - perhaps Aliera was able to argue that his soul is a sufficient excuse for the event and either the truth (doubtful) or some reasonable lie (also doubtful) was told to the Left Hand witnesses, probably along with a threat should anyone gossip. From scs at di.org Tue Jan 10 18:09:42 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:09:42 -0500 Subject: Cool! - Issola Spoiler, but minor In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060111020942.GB1100@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 02:35:45PM -0700, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/9/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Thanks. It explains Vlads emerging godhood, too. Oh, you didn't know > > Vlad was becoming a god? Reread Issola and watch for Vlad being in > > three places at once. > ??? See Issola, top of page 141 in the hardback. Begin with the line "I took a step forward--" and read every third line until you reach a line that ends in a period. Return to the top of 141, begin with the line *following* "I took a step forward" and read every third line as before. Read this way, the sequence clearly shows Vlad taking three pathways simultaneously. It's neatly put together so the casual reader thinks its another Brustian homage to Zelazny's shadow walks, so it's easy enough to miss. And note also that this occurs in the book where they take great pains to tell you what the qualifying feature of gods is. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 21:05:34 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:05:34 -0700 Subject: Cool! - Issola Spoiler, but minor In-Reply-To: <20060111020942.GB1100@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060109202116.GB29837@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <2ddbda5f0601091335g42798c57s4cbbba44a2f195b9@mail.gmail.com> <20060111020942.GB1100@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601102105r1c0317f8m7b57a29a66bc3e7d@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > See Issola, top of page 141 in the hardback. Begin with the line "I took > a step forward--" and read every third line until you reach a line that > ends in a period. Return to the top of 141, begin with the line > *following* "I took a step forward" and read every third line as before. > Read this way, the sequence clearly shows Vlad taking three pathways > simultaneously. It's neatly put together so the casual reader thinks > its another Brustian homage to Zelazny's shadow walks, so it's easy > enough to miss. And note also that this occurs in the book where they > take great pains to tell you what the qualifying feature of gods is. Thanks. I had in fact noticed that the multiple viewpoints made several distinct narratives, but it had never occurred to me that it might represent being in three places at once. And yes, it did remind me of Zelazny's shadow walks, now that you mention it, which may be why I didn't try too hard to process it mentally. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 06:12:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:12:26 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 09:19 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Note that it seems likely to me that any amorphia generation by an >Easterner would likely result in a trip by any witness to an oubliette >at best. That Vlad wasn't disappeared now strikes me as surprising - >perhaps Aliera was able to argue that his soul is a sufficient excuse >for the event and either the truth (doubtful) or some reasonable lie >(also doubtful) was told to the Left Hand witnesses, probably along with >a threat should anyone gossip. This assumes quite a few things... #1) That anyone in that room (other than Vlad and Aliera) had a clear idea of what was happening at all. (How many normal citizens think about amorphia as a part of their daily lives? How many would have seen such things before? How many are educated in the mechanics of how such things work?) #2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later (The only one who might have been aware of who he was--before things got crazy--was the one sorceress they were after, and Morrolan takes care of her shortly afterwards). #3) That the higher-ups in the Jhereg knew what amorphia was, how incredibly dangerous it is to play around with, and somehow saw it as their responsibility to take care of the potential danger. Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* have been able to identify what was going on. I would say that if there were such, they would be the ones most likely to go into total shock when they saw the amorphia form, and be the least reliable as witnesses after the fact. Really, it's the last point that convinces me, personally. Why should the Jhereg stick their neck out to remove a dangerous Elder Sorcerer? Isn't the Empire supposed to enforce the laws concerning Elder Sorcery? So maybe they report it to the Phoenix Guard, who, after talking to their boss (Khaavren--who has likely already talked to Sethra about the situation) decides to leave well enough alone. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 06:16:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:16:16 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C3FB6A.8020602@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 10:22 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>"Elder Sorcery" is used somewhat interchangably in the texts to refer both >>to the ability to create and control Amorphia directly using the power of >>the mind (as Vlad does in /Jhereg/, then again later in /Issola/) and in >>the use of Chaos stones to channel a flow of amorphia (As used by Adron in >>FHYA). >> >> >> >I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. I've noticed a lot of parallels between /To Reign in Hell/ and /Five Hundred Years After/. I just picked up a copy of TRiH off Amazon so I could re-read it (borrowed a copy from a friend the first time), I was thinking of doing a side-by-side reading of both books to see how things might line up. Majikjon From chittom at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 06:22:33 2006 From: chittom at gmail.com (Carson Chittom) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:22:33 -0600 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1635f021e429c694c42437e1e78e5dd5@gmail.com> On Jan 11, 2006, at 8:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > #2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later (The > only > one who might have been aware of who he was--before things got > crazy--was > the one sorceress they were after, and Morrolan takes care of her > shortly > afterwards). This is the most important of your points, I think. Even calm eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jan 11 07:07:03 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:07:03 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in > magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* > have been > able to identify what was going on. I would say that if there were > such, > they would be the ones most likely to go into total shock when they > saw > the amorphia form, and be the least reliable as witnesses after the > fact. > > Really, it's the last point that convinces me, personally. Why > should the > Jhereg stick their neck out to remove a dangerous Elder Sorcerer? > Isn't > the Empire supposed to enforce the laws concerning Elder Sorcery? > So maybe > they report it to the Phoenix Guard, who, after talking to their boss > (Khaavren--who has likely already talked to Sethra about the > situation) > decides to leave well enough alone. > > Majikjon What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself to learning witchcraft (which is what I believe you intend by the use of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. Ken From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 07:33:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:33:22 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 07:07 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> >> Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in >> magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself >to learning witchcraft (which is what I believe you intend by the use >of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in >the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, >wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for "sorcery". I had already used the word "sorcereress" in that sentance, and I didn't want to sound redundant by saying "sorcery" later in the same statement. (As an aside, we don't really know if those particular left-hand sorceresses were necromancers, regular sorcerers, wizards, or maybe had studied witchcraft, but I didn't mean to imply that witchcraft was what they had specifically studied.) It is worth remembering, however, that with the Interregnum having ended only 240 years before this event, most sorceresses of the Left Hand at that point had likely lived during the Interregnum, and many may have studied witchcraft as an alternative form of magic while the Orb was gone. I suppose this idea applies equally to Elder Sorcery, as well. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 07:48:10 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:48:10 -0800 Subject: The Nature of Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601100854p36955cb4rdda7395173b04171@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 08:54 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/10/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> Certainly, the *event* would be remembered, but would anybody ever have >> known it was Vlad? > >But since the event isn't remembered, it apparently didn't happen, whether >caused by an Easterner or someone else. (And yes, depending on how fast >Vlad's little trick had spread, someone might have known it was Vlad. Partly >it hinges on whether teleportation is really as new a trick as Paarfi says >it is. Certainly there were witnesses, whose memories are accessible through >the Orb.) Well, those memories would be accessible to the Emperor/Empress, anyway. But they may elect to suppress the information in the interests of not encouraging folks to play around with Elder Sorcery. >> Vlad would not have known to *try* to use amorphia if he hadn't just had >> that little talk with Aliera. > >Now, this point I may have to concede. Actually I don't remember the >sequence of events from "Jarhead" very well. Was he thinking about the >Dolivar thing particularly, or just that Elder Sorcery were possible? Scott >pointed out that Vlad is certainly not the first to learn of Elder Sorcery. They had talked about it previously, and Vlad was thinking about the conversation very specifically when he did his thing. Again, "Elder Sorcery" is kind of a blanket term for any non-Orb sorcery, which can take many forms. Type 1: The ability to create amorphia directly, this is an e'Kieron thing. Type 2: The ability to use Chaos stones to control a flow of amorphia is clearly something that someone can learn to do with no genetic requirements. Type 3: The ability to mentally control existing amorphia directly without chaos stones. (What Vlad does in /Issola/ to *create* a chaos stone.) The nature of this last one is less clear. Can just anyone do this? Can only e'Kierons do this? Some would contend that this is what Grita did during the Interregnum, which is certainly implied by her statements. We don't know, however, if she had any chaos stones with her during these events, so it may be type 2 elder sorcery, rather than type 3. The fact that chaos stones were invented by "Athyra Wizards" might imply that anyone can do this type 3 stuff, but we don't know if those Athyra sorcerers might have had help from an e'Kieron. (It is, after all, Dragons who first used chaos stones effectively in Battle, right before they were banned.) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 08:38:02 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:38:02 -0800 Subject: Adron's Disaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/10/06 09:19 AM To cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) >I think you are missing something. Remember the discussion with Aliera. >Elder Sorcery is the direct manipulation of amorphia. Anyone (with >sufficient skill) can learn to do that. That is what Morrolan does, and what >Adron was doing to try take possession of the orb. Creation of amorphia is >the aspect that is linked to the E'Kieron line, and that is what Vlad did in >the restaurant. Vlad does not actually use Elder Sorcery until Issola, at >the stream and again shortly afterwards. See my earlier post about the 3 different "types" of Elder Sorcery. >Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created if >Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia the >result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by his >spell when it turned against him? Hmm... I think that, given the effects of the spell (according to Paarfi's version anyway) he was using, it wouldn't have mattered much *who* was doing the spell at that point. (Other than, by virtue of the fact that he was Dragon Heir, the Orb sought him out, causing the conflict that resulted in the disaster.) If, say K'laiyer e'Lanya had still been alive, and had been Heir, and had tried to use the same spell, it would have had the same consequences. Now, it was likely Adron's e'Kieron heritage that gave him the ability to create the chaos stones that made the spell possible in the first place, so it was likely a contributing factor, since K'laiyer e'Lanya wouldn't have been able to do such a spell, just because he wouldn't have the stones. (Please forgive me for the awful pun there.) Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 11 08:45:56 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:45:56 -0700 Subject: Adron's Disaster References: Message-ID: > > cc > > Subject > Re: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) > > > > > >I think you are missing something. Remember the discussion with Aliera. > >Elder Sorcery is the direct manipulation of amorphia. Anyone (with > >sufficient skill) can learn to do that. That is what Morrolan does, and > what > >Adron was doing to try take possession of the orb. Creation of amorphia > is > >the aspect that is linked to the E'Kieron line, and that is what Vlad did > in > >the restaurant. Vlad does not actually use Elder Sorcery until Issola, at > >the stream and again shortly afterwards. > > See my earlier post about the 3 different "types" of Elder Sorcery. > > >Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created > if > >Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia > the > >result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by > his > >spell when it turned against him? > > Hmm... I think that, given the effects of the spell (according to Paarfi's > version anyway) he was using, it wouldn't have mattered much *who* was > doing the spell at that point. (Other than, by virtue of the fact that he > was Dragon Heir, the Orb sought him out, causing the conflict that > resulted in the disaster.) If, say K'laiyer e'Lanya had still been alive, > and had been Heir, and had tried to use the same spell, it would have had > the same consequences. > > Now, it was likely Adron's e'Kieron heritage that gave him the ability to > create the chaos stones that made the spell possible in the first place, > so it was likely a contributing factor, since K'laiyer e'Lanya wouldn't > have been able to do such a spell, just because he wouldn't have the > stones. (Please forgive me for the awful pun there.) > > Majikjon > Actually, I believe he could, K'Laiyer would have just had to go to the Sea of Chaos to make them from the amorphia already there. Adron, however, could conceivably create amorphia and then change it to it's "useable" state anywhere and anytime. Jeff - Has his own seas of chaos, residing in each of his children's bedrooms From sethra500 at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 09:13:16 2006 From: sethra500 at gmail.com (Sethra) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:13:16 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (some Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30991dd10601110913g4039abfbo8519a0c8dd626173@mail.gmail.com> On 1/10/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > > > Possible discussion topic: Would the Second Sea of Chaos had been created > if > Adron was not part of the E'Kieron line? Was the outpouring of amorphia > the > result of his body/soul trying to deal with all the power unleashed by his > spell when it turned against him? > > When Vlad used it, he was thinking there was nothing in his power he could > do to, well, do anything. It seems more like it just happened. The above > statement makes sence. It happens (in the e'Kieron line) when the body, or > maybe mind, is under great stress. > > -- > Sethra > "As to that? T'is no great hardship. > Were't not for that, > ev'ry cowardly fellow would turn pirate > and so infest the sea > that men of courage must starve." > Mary Read at her trial Nov. 28 1720 > when asked what she thought about her punishment of hanging. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 09:35:04 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: comment by Orwell In-Reply-To: <1635f021e429c694c42437e1e78e5dd5@gmail.com> References: <1635f021e429c694c42437e1e78e5dd5@gmail.com> Message-ID: ... invariably the case in the East; a story always sounds clear enough at a distance, but the nearer you get to the scene of events the vaguer it becomes. - from "Shooting an Elephant" From kdvorenkamp at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 11:22:00 2006 From: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com (Kendra Vorenkamp) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:22:00 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> On 1/9/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I think it's debateable. The Organization appears to be distinct from > the aristocratic hierarchy. It could just as easily be that the Jhereg > Heir is mostly a figurehead who is allowed to do whatever he wants, > except with the restriction that the Jhereg Council is not made > unhappy by what he does, and the Organization is thus able to do > whatever it pleases, even when the Heir becomes the Emperor. In other > words, the Jhereg aristocracy always defers to the Organization in > matters pertaining to the Organization. > > But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest > Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is > synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. > > Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. > > Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not just the head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. Cheers, Kendra -- When we long for a life with no difficulties, remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary winds, and diamonds are made under pressure. - Peter Marshall -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/2daa1f84/attachment-0001.html From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jan 11 11:40:54 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:40:54 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> References: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02994FDD-3A2A-4334-AD76-06A1F2375D1F@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:22 PM, Kendra Vorenkamp wrote: > On 1/9/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> I think it's debateable. The Organization appears to be distinct >> from >> the aristocratic hierarchy. It could just as easily be that the >> Jhereg >> Heir is mostly a figurehead who is allowed to do whatever he wants, >> except with the restriction that the Jhereg Council is not made >> unhappy by what he does, and the Organization is thus able to do >> whatever it pleases, even when the Heir becomes the Emperor. In >> other >> words, the Jhereg aristocracy always defers to the Organization in >> matters pertaining to the Organization. >> >> But I could be wrong, and perhaps the Empire becomes the biggest >> Jhereg area of all when the Cycle turns that way, and the Emperor is >> synonymous with the head of the Jhereg Council at that time. >> >> Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. >> >> Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be > misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not > just the > head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. > > Cheers, > Kendra In FHYA the meeting of the Principalities includes the Heirs from each house. It is also noted in Phoenix that the "business" end of the House is not the same as the part that is represented to the Imperium. Count Soffta, while obviously in touch with the business end, is the Jhereg rep to the court. Presumably he represents a Prince/Heir rather than the Council. I must admit that no Jhereg Prince is named, to the best of my recollection. Ken From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 11:53:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:53:19 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <38aa89f30601111122o7b3fc793n552abf4b24bf6902@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kendra Vorenkamp Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 11:22 AM Please respond to kdvorenkamp at gmail.com To Davdi Silverrock cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >> Or maybe it's even worked both ways in different Cycles. >> >> Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be >misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not just the >head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. Well, Zerika IV makes comments to Vlad in /Phoenix/ (page 314 of /The Book of Taltos/) that says "Later, it was each House, through it's heir, which ruled each House..." While this is far from conclusive, the fact that she makes no exception for the House Jhereg when making this statement is telling. Also, in TPG, page 78 of the Trade Paperback: "...buy their way into positions of power until they can pick their own emperor." Implies that it is, indeed, an Emperor who rules in a Jhereg reign, not the whole council. I don't remember any specific mention of a Jhereg heir, directly, however. There is a Lord Beck mentioned, who came to Kana's little get-together, but he's only noted as a "former house representative". Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/2a9b7922/attachment-0001.htm From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 11:55:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:55:41 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C3FB6A.8020602@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > >I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. > > I've noticed a lot of parallels between /To Reign in Hell/ and /Five > Hundred Years After/. > Huh. So Tortaalik is Yaweh, Adron is Satan, Greycat is Mephistopheles, and amorphia is cacoastrum? Interesting. I never thought of that. I think that I too have to re-read tRiH. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jan 11 11:59:47 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:59:47 +0100 Subject: Jhereg emperor WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >To: kdvorenkamp at gmail.com >CC: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info,Dragaera List >Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:53:19 -0800 > >Kendra Vorenkamp >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >01/11/06 11:22 AM >Please respond to >kdvorenkamp at gmail.com > > >To >Davdi Silverrock >cc >Dragaera List >Subject >Re: the honing of Vlad > >> Can anyone cite anywhere the mention of a Jhereg heir? I might be > >misremembering, but I thought that the entire Jhereg council (not just >the > >head) ran the Empire in lieu of having an Emperor figurehead. > >Well, Zerika IV makes comments to Vlad in /Phoenix/ (page 314 of /The Book >of Taltos/) that says "Later, it was each House, through it's heir, which >ruled each House..." > >While this is far from conclusive, the fact that she makes no exception >for the House Jhereg when making this statement is telling. > We also have the *paraphrasing from memory* "Every house gets to rule through an emperor except for the Teckla Republic" bit. I bet we would have heard about any Jhereg Republic if any existed. :) /Mrtn From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 12:04:09 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:04:09 -0700 Subject: Jhereg emperor WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601111204m3c52cc15lfb20760ae2f55e6@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > > We also have the *paraphrasing from memory* "Every house gets to rule > through an emperor except for the Teckla Republic" bit. > I bet we would have heard about any Jhereg Republic if any existed. :) > Aside: more like "Jhereg plutocracy." :) Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 12:05:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:05:27 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >> > >> > >> Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some training in > >> magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* > > > >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself > >to learning witchcraft Morrolan e'Drien? > > (which is what I believe you intend by the use > >of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in > >the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, > >wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. > > Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for "sorcery". And you were generally correct in doing so. "Magic" is the general term which encompasses all of the branches of, well, magic, and therefore includes sorcery. Various hits on "magic" in /Issola/: Sethra: "If I can't reach them where they are, I don't know how I'd be able to watch you there." Vlad: "Uh ... magic?" Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, I'm not a witch." [Teldra] said, "And we were wondering if there was any magic here." (on seeing the river of amorphia) [Vlad] said, "Spellbreaker didn't help?" "It isn't that kind of magic," said Verra helpfully. And so on and so forth. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 12:17:40 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:17:40 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 11:55 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: >> >I keep thinking of the start of _To Reign in Hell_. >> >> I've noticed a lot of parallels between /To Reign in Hell/ and /Five >> Hundred Years After/. >> > >Huh. So Tortaalik is Yaweh, Adron is Satan, Greycat is >Mephistopheles, and amorphia is cacoastrum? > >Interesting. I never thought of that. I think that I too have to re-read tRiH. Phoenix Guard White Sash Battalion = Cherebim, Red Boot Battalion = Seraphim Breath of Fire Batalion = Satan's Army Aerich maybe takes the place of Lucifer... I dunno. Like I said, there's a lot of parallels, but I need to re-read it. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/1a58f3fa/attachment-0001.html From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jan 11 12:26:15 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:26:15 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <581C5D5A-7EF7-4B12-8FE2-05CE03058F02@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2006, at 3:05 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> >> >> On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now, these were Left-Hand sorceresses, so they've had some >>>> training in >>>> magic, and it's not impossible that one or more of them *might* >> >> >>> What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself >>> to learning witchcraft > > Morrolan e'Drien? > >>> (which is what I believe you intend by the use >>> of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in >>> the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, >>> wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. >> >> Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for >> "sorcery". > > And you were generally correct in doing so. "Magic" is the general > term which encompasses all of the branches of, well, magic, and > therefore includes sorcery. > > Various hits on "magic" in /Issola/: > > Sethra: "If I can't reach them where they are, I don't know how I'd be > able to watch you there." > Vlad: "Uh ... magic?" > Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this > problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, > I'm not a witch." > > [Teldra] said, "And we were wondering if there was any magic here." > (on seeing the river of amorphia) > > [Vlad] said, "Spellbreaker didn't help?" > "It isn't that kind of magic," said Verra helpfully. > > And so on and so forth. Mea culpa--you found those references just like magic! Ken From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 11 12:26:54 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? Message-ID: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, I'm not a witch." So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had enough time to learn it... rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 12:45:15 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:45:15 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> Maybe for the same reason Morrolan isn't a chef? Lack of interest, apparently. Sethra: "I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!" Verra: "Did you... dress her up like this?" Vlad: "Yes. A bit. We did do the nose. And the hat." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From shawnb at stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 12:49:50 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:49:50 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601112050.k0BKnpVT027868@smtp1.Stanford.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Maximilian Wilson > Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:45 PM > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: Not a witch? > > Maybe for the same reason Morrolan isn't a chef? Lack of > interest, apparently. > > Sethra: "I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!" > Verra: "Did you... dress her up like this?" > Vlad: "Yes. A bit. We did do the nose. And the hat." > > Max Wilson And Morrolan was raised in the East, with lots of Easterner friends, and gained a little coven of his own that way. Sethra doesn't have those direct connections, so who would teach her? After Morrolan gets back, he might be willing to teach her, but I doubt she would be willing to be one of his students. Maybe if Tukko knew witchcraft.... Shawn From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 13:15:47 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:15:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself > > >to learning witchcraft > > Morrolan e'Drien? Having learned it before sorcery, he can hardly learn it as a sorcerer. And is he self-respecting? Perhaps he's self-regarding - but reflective enough to be the former? No, his insistence on honor in _J_ is self-respect I suppose. > > Sorry, I used the word "magic" there just to be a synonym for "sorcery". > > And you were generally correct in doing so. "Magic" is the general > term which encompasses all of the branches of, well, magic, and > therefore includes sorcery. Taking "synonym" to mean, "A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word" (though I would prefer a definition describing the relationship between a pair of words), I disagree. That sorcery is an example of magic is generally accepted, though I might quibble about the technological aspects of the former being inconsistent with the latter's sense of "supernatural" (the former is unusual physics plus engineering, the latter [e.g., witchcraft] isn't explicable), so "metonymous" might be better than "synonymous". From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 13:20:13 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:20:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this > problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, > I'm not a witch." > > So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had > enough time to learn it... Wondered that myself on reading the above quote. Does witchcraft come from the gods? [TEoDM spoilers omitted.] If so, S might prefer to avoid it. Also, pararectally, one might need to be alive to be a witch. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 13:24:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:24:58 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 01:20 PM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >Also, pararectally, one might need to be alive to be a witch. What about Loraan? Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead witch? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 13:29:44 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:29:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? No, unless what the Texts indicate about the Empire's view of witchcraft is a cover-up. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 13:41:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:41:08 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? > > Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead > witch? > I would tend to strongly doubt it. Citing /Issola/ again: "Witchcraft," [Morrolan] explained, "is something else again." I could be wrong in my interpretation, but I think that witchcraft is most closely akin to psionics. This because all of the Dragaeran magical systems (sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy and wizardry) appear to involve amorphia. Witchcraft, while it does heavily involve the use of things that are symbols in order to make things easier for the witch, does not actually *require* anything besides the witch's mind and will. Or so Vlad appears to imply. Note also that it was Daymar's purely psychic boost that helped Vlad in /Jhereg/. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 13:51:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:51:02 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, rone wrote: > Sethra: "If sorcery worked there, I don't think we'd be having this > problem, and I can't think what other magic we might use. Unlike you, > I'm not a witch." > > So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had > enough time to learn it... > Perhaps it's a matter of pride. She would inevitably be required to spend a reasonably lengthy period of time learning with someone much younger and inexperienced than herself. She might feel that doing this would be demeaning. And as for "enough time", well, until Adron's Disaster, I don't think it ever occurred to her that there would be a time when sorcery stopped working (and even after it did so, there was still Elder Sorcery), so she would see no reason to learn a magic which did not use sorcery. From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 11 14:02:58 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:02:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060111220258.1034F6848F@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: Perhaps it's a matter of pride. She would inevitably be required to spend a reasonably lengthy period of time learning with someone much younger and inexperienced than herself. She might feel that doing this would be demeaning. That doesn't jibe with her creating of her Alternate Persona. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 14:04:33 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:04:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, rone wrote: > > So why the hell ISN'T Sethra a witch, anyway? She's certainly had > > enough time to learn it... > > > > Perhaps it's a matter of pride. She would inevitably be required to > spend a reasonably lengthy period of time learning with someone much > younger and inexperienced than herself. There's Verra, isn't there? Don't see why she'd care, though. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 11 14:32:11 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:32:11 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock 01/11/06 01:41 PM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc Philip Hart , dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, SKZB List Subject Re: Not a witch? >On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > >> Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines >> (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? >> >> Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead >> witch? > > >I would tend to strongly doubt it. > >Citing /Issola/ again: > >"Witchcraft," [Morrolan] explained, "is something else again." > >I could be wrong in my interpretation, but I think that witchcraft is >most closely akin to psionics. This because all of the Dragaeran >magical systems (sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy and wizardry) >appear to involve amorphia. Witchcraft, while it does heavily involve >the use of things that are symbols in order to make things easier for >the witch, does not actually *require* anything besides the witch's >mind and will. Or so Vlad appears to imply. Note also that it was >Daymar's purely psychic boost that helped Vlad in /Jhereg/. So, obviously the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same thing?) This being said, I believe the original question was, "Can the undead perform witchcraft?" putting that aside for the moment, how about this one: "Can the undead use Psychics/Psionics?" Judging by Sethra's ability to communicate this way with Vlad, Morrolan, etc, I'd say the simple answer is yes. Therefore it would stand to reason that witchcraft may be attainable for the undead, unless there is some further requirement, beyond needing the ability to use Psychic energy., that would limit an undead personage. Myself, I keep thinking about Jack Agyar, and *his* abilities, which seem to be more Psychic than anything else. (But being that /Agyar/ is not set in Dragaera, this is not directly applicable.) Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060111/53fc592b/attachment-0001.htm From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 15:23:14 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:23:14 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > > > >> Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > >> (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? > >> > >> Loraan was a Wizard, and also an undead. Does this mean he was an undead > >> witch? > > > > > >I would tend to strongly doubt it. > > > >Citing /Issola/ again: > > > >"Witchcraft," [Morrolan] explained, "is something else again." > > > >I could be wrong in my interpretation, but I think that witchcraft is > >most closely akin to psionics. This because all of the Dragaeran > >magical systems (sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy and wizardry) > >appear to involve amorphia. Witchcraft, while it does heavily involve > >the use of things that are symbols in order to make things easier for > >the witch, does not actually *require* anything besides the witch's > >mind and will. Or so Vlad appears to imply. Note also that it was > >Daymar's purely psychic boost that helped Vlad in /Jhereg/. > > So, obviously the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it > work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian > difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same > thing?) I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. Sort of like Chaos/Amorphia. > > This being said, I believe the original question was, "Can the undead > perform witchcraft?" Actually, you seemed to be suggesting that wizardry included witchcraft. My argument is that it does not, given Aliera's and Morrlan's little summation to Vlad about amorphia & necrophia. That is, wizardry is a Dragaeran magical technology based on deep understanding of and experience with amorphia and necrophia. Witchcraft is not necessary for wizardry to work. Which is not to say that a wizard cannot be a witch; case in point, Morrolan again. > > "Can the undead use Psychics/Psionics?" > > Judging by Sethra's ability to communicate this way with Vlad, > Morrolan, etc, I'd say the simple answer is yes. True, but note that that appears to be facilitated by the Orb; that is, the Orb boosting psychic abilities. > Therefore it would stand to reason that witchcraft may be > attainable for the undead, I see no reason to argue against this. While being undead is "sometimes inconvenient", to paraphrase the Necromancer, there is nothing that indicates exactly what that inconvenience is, so far. Especially in the area of magical ability. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 15:29:31 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:29:31 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Isn't a Wizard a person who wraps up all the magical disciplines > (including witchcraft) into an object--along with his/her soul? /Viscount/ is pretty clear that Sethra considers herself a wizard, as did Tazendra, while Issola is clear that Sethra does not consider herself a witch. QED. I'm tempted to take Vlad's comment about wizardry in Issola as a somewhat fascetious comment intended to indicate that he actually hasn't a clue in the world what wizardry is. "Roll them all together and shove them in a box" sounds a lot like a verbal shrug. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 15:43:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:43:37 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were >both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. > >Sort of like Chaos/Amorphia. > > I seem to recall some William Gibson novels of the same era as /Jhereg/ (early 1980's) making extensive use of "psionics", as well as GURPS, and some other RPGs. The term seems to have fallen out of use at some point in the early-to-mid-90's, which sort of coincides with when SKZB's books started using the term "Psychics" instead. Does anyone else have examples of psionic as opposed to psychic? >Actually, you seemed to be suggesting that wizardry included >witchcraft. My argument is that it does not, given Aliera's and > > Yes, but only so I could use Loraan as an exmple of an undead witch. As to this point, I would refer you to Issola, page 127: [cite] The Elder Sorcery is, perhaps, the most difficult branch of magic, at least until you try to throw them all together and tie them up in some object where you also keep your soul so you get to call yourself a "wizard", for whatever satisfaction that will bring you. [/cite] This seems to use "magic" in its most generic sense, which may or may not include witchcraft, but given that Vlad is the one making the quote, and he's *very* familiar with witchcraft and its status as a magical discipline, I'd say at least *he* thinks that a wizard would also be a witch. Vlad, of course, may have stated the definition of "wizard" a bit glibly. (Ya' think?) > >True, but note that that appears to be facilitated by the Orb; that >is, the Orb boosting psychic abilities. > > No doubt Psychic communication is aided by the Orb (Paarfi says as much in SL). But could someone cut off from psychic energies use psionic communication, even if they had access to the Orb? I don't know if we have enough data to answer this one. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 15:46:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:46:37 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >/Viscount/ is pretty clear that Sethra considers herself a wizard, as >did Tazendra, while Issola is clear that Sethra does not consider >herself a witch. QED. > > I'm blanking on where Sethra refers to herself as a Wizard... (Not that I'm really disagreeing, I just don't recall it). >I'm tempted to take Vlad's comment about wizardry in Issola as a >somewhat fascetious comment intended to indicate that he actually >hasn't a clue in the world what wizardry is. "Roll them all together >and shove them in a box" sounds a lot like a verbal shrug. > >Max > > You were reading my last post as I was typing it in, weren't you? ;-) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 15:51:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:51:02 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060111202654.04A5D683FE@boredom.ennui.org> <2ddbda5f0601111245k40188519i32cefa4bf96e00b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C599E6.6060102@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >Maybe for the same reason Morrolan isn't a chef? Lack of interest, apparently. > >Sethra: "I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!" >Verra: "Did you... dress her up like this?" >Vlad: "Yes. A bit. We did do the nose. And the hat." > >Max Wilson > So... If Sethra weighs the same as an issola... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 15:54:24 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:54:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > The Elder Sorcery is, perhaps, the most difficult branch of magic, at > least until you try to throw them all together and tie them up in some > object where you also keep your soul so you get to call yourself a > "wizard", for whatever satisfaction that will bring you. > > [/cite] > > This seems to use "magic" in its most generic sense, which may or may > not include witchcraft, but given that Vlad is the one making the quote, > and he's *very* familiar with witchcraft and its status as a magical > discipline, I'd say at least *he* thinks that a wizard would also be a > witch. Or he's speaking sloppily, which I find infinitely more likely. Or he agrees with me that sorcery etc is actually tech and is using "magic" in the standard Dragaeran sense, which excludes witchcraft as Eastern. The fact that M is highly unusual as a witch makes nonsense of the idea that wizardry includes witchcraft. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 16:53:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:53:21 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > As to this point, I would refer you to Issola, page 127: > > [cite] > > The Elder Sorcery is, perhaps, the most difficult branch of magic, at > least until you try to throw them all together and tie them up in some > object where you also keep your soul so you get to call yourself a > "wizard", for whatever satisfaction that will bring you. > > [/cite] > > This seems to use "magic" in its most generic sense, which may or may > not include witchcraft, but given that Vlad is the one making the quote, > and he's *very* familiar with witchcraft and its status as a magical > discipline, I'd say at least *he* thinks that a wizard would also be a > witch. Hmph. Your argument appears to hinge on Vlad meaning by "all" *every* other type of magic that there is, rather than "all of the standard Dragaeran branches of magic". The context in which he is saying it most certainly does not support your interpretation. He's thinking about Elder Sorcery, and how very little he really knows about it despite having done something really big and really incredibly stupid once, and the bit about wizardry is something he tosses off as a brief, and slightly snarky, aside. > Vlad, of course, may have stated the definition of "wizard" a bit > glibly. (Ya' think?) I nearly think that that is most certainly entirely the case. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 17:03:44 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:03:44 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > >/Viscount/ is pretty clear that Sethra considers herself a wizard, as > >did Tazendra, while Issola is clear that Sethra does not consider > >herself a witch. QED. > > > > > I'm blanking on where Sethra refers to herself as a Wizard... (Not that > I'm really disagreeing, I just don't recall it). Search inside suggests that she does not. However, since she can *teach* wizards (that is, Tazendra, and probably the other Lavodes in the past), well, I nearly think that whatever she is *includes* being a wizard. But really, all she needs to do is refer to herself as Sethra Lavode, and that should say it all, to anyone who knows anything. > >I'm tempted to take Vlad's comment about wizardry in Issola as a > >somewhat fascetious comment intended to indicate that he actually > >hasn't a clue in the world what wizardry is. "Roll them all together > >and shove them in a box" sounds a lot like a verbal shrug. > > > >Max > > > > > You were reading my last post as I was typing it in, weren't you? ;-) > Maybe he's secretly psychic. (Or psionic. Whatever.) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 17:07:09 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:07:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: Is there no evidence of Sethra having been court wizard? From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 18:15:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:15:02 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5BBA6.5030107@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >Is there no evidence of Sethra having been court wizard? > > Not that I've ever seen. Plenty of references to her as Warlord, however. I guess when she's offered a cabinet position, there's only one logical choice. The Sorceress in Green was offered the position of Court Wizard once, though. (And no doubt she peers down her nose at witchcraft as much as anyone does...) Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 18:22:35 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:22:35 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601111529g7a58ec9clfbcc9ba1d99da1cb@mail.gmail.com> <43C598DD.30907@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5BD6B.7020408@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Search inside suggests that she does not. However, since she can >*teach* wizards (that is, Tazendra, and probably the other Lavodes in >the past), well, I nearly think that whatever she is *includes* being >a wizard. > >But really, all she needs to do is refer to herself as Sethra Lavode, >and that should say it all, to anyone who knows anything. > > Indeed. >Maybe he's secretly psychic. > >(Or psionic. Whatever.) > > Are you saying he could secretly be Daymar, and we'd never know? Wow. I think my head just melted. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 18:20:53 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:20:53 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Hmph. Your argument appears to hinge on Vlad meaning by "all" *every* >other type of magic that there is, rather than "all of the standard >Dragaeran branches of magic". > > It wasn't really an argument, just trying to stay open to different possibilities. Vlad certainly uses the term loosely enough to make it a conversation, either way, though I'd say the preponderance of evidence does seem to point to witchcraft not being critical to the study of wizardry. It says nothing, however, about the art of Psychics themselves, which are at least related to witchcraft, and without the stigma of being "Eastern" (See Daymar). >The context in which he is saying it most certainly does not support >your interpretation. He's thinking about Elder Sorcery, and how very >little he really knows about it despite having done something really >big and really incredibly stupid once, and the bit about wizardry is >something he tosses off as a brief, and slightly snarky, aside. > > No real argument, here. The context makes this interpretation very shaky, there's no denying it. > >I nearly think that that is most certainly entirely the case. > > Vlad? Being glib? Next thing you'll tell me he's being sarcastic.(Which couldn't *ever* happen, of course.) Majikjon Comic Book Guy: Ooo, a *sarcasm* detector! That's a *real* useful invention! From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 11 14:54:03 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:54:03 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C58C8B.3080203@brazee.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >What self-respecting Dragaeron sorcerer(ess) would lower him/herself >to learning witchcraft (which is what I believe you intend by the use >of the word "magic", jon. I am unfamiliar with the latter concept in >the Brustian universe--there are sorcery, elder sorcery, necromancy, >wizardry (which combines the first 3) and witchcraft. >Ken > > > One looking for a job at a certain black castle. Or a scholar. Or someone looking of an edge - maybe an assassin. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 21:01:23 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:01:23 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> True, but note that that appears to be facilitated by the Orb; that >> is, the Orb boosting psychic abilities. >> > No doubt Psychic communication is aided by the Orb (Paarfi says as > much in SL). But could someone cut off from psychic energies use > psionic communication, even if they had access to the Orb? I don't > know if we have enough data to answer this one. There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can contact Vlad or even trace him using psionics/psychics because of the disruptive field. It also causes him to be unable to contact others. I don't remember what the results of Sethra's experiments showed regarding the properties of Phoenix Stones. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 21:01:33 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:01:33 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> Hmph. Your argument appears to hinge on Vlad meaning by "all" *every* >> other type of magic that there is, rather than "all of the standard >> Dragaeran branches of magic". >> >> > It wasn't really an argument, just trying to stay open to different > possibilities. > > Vlad certainly uses the term loosely enough to make it a conversation, > either way, though I'd say the preponderance of evidence does seem to > point to witchcraft not being critical to the study of wizardry. It > says nothing, however, about the art of Psychics themselves, which are > at least related to witchcraft, and without the stigma of being > "Eastern" (See Daymar). But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much higher than witchcraft. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 11 21:16:12 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:16:12 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Jose Marquez wrote: > But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. > Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight > face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the > moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." > > It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much > higher than witchcraft. Yes, but Aliera has at least mild contempt for almost everyone. Even Vlad, when she first met him in /Taltos/. And certainly for Sethra throughout FHYA. And this exchange is even typical for her and Morrolan, who we know she has no *real* contempt for. Aliera tends to mask her real feelings behind a facade of snippiness. I think it's a defense mechanism. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 21:56:29 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:56:29 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/11/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Jose Marquez wrote: > > > But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. > > Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight > > face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the > > moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." > > > > It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much > > higher than witchcraft. > > Yes, but Aliera has at least mild contempt for almost everyone. > > Even Vlad, when she first met him in /Taltos/. And also for Kieron the Conqueror. And also, at times, for her own mother, the goddess Verra. Given Daymar's power, I think anyone who has *genuine* contempt for someone who can break through a military teleport block -- not to mention everything else Daymar has done -- is entirely confused. Indeed, when Aliera broke through to Greenaere using Elder Sorcery, Daymar helped. So I really doubt that she really feels contempt for him. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 22:18:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:18:36 -0800 Subject: Cursing in Fenarian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of cursing, and Fenarian/Hungarian, there's this page on Serbian, which digresses onto Hungarian. http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002157.php This bit I thought particularly amusing: [Begin Cite] On a tangent, a Hungarian friend of mine who is a history teacher once told me that the earliest record of the Hungarian language is not, in fact, the list of land owners' names contained in the "Tihany Abbey Document" dating from the 11th century. Apparently a Byzantine source from 200 years earlier mentions an emabssy from Constantinople meeting a group of pre-Pannonian Magyars (referred to at the time as "Turkoi" in Byzantine sources) which says that these Turkoi spoke 'Turkoi' as well as their own special language. This language was unintelligible to the other "Turkoi" and the one most common expression was recorded as "Bazamak!" Which is considerably close to the most common Hungarian swear word "bazd/bassza meg!" (Fuck it/you" (Literally "Befucked!" in an Old English fashion...) [End Cite] From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 23:03:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:03:33 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601112303n26b7cc13g2c5f8e1338e00abb@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Indeed, when Aliera broke through to Greenaere using Elder Sorcery, > Daymar helped. So I really doubt that she really feels contempt for > him. Aside: of course, it was Sethra doing the Elder Sorcery here, and Aliera was simply the package. May be relevant to the discussion on "wizards." Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 23:25:26 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:25:26 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Jose Marquez wrote: > >> But recall the mild contempt Aliera has for Daymar: "Hello, Daymar. >> Mind-probed any teckla, lately?" "No," he answered with a straight >> face, "did you have one that you wanted mind-probed?" "Not at the >> moment," she said. "Ask me again next Cycle." "I'll be sure to." >> >> It's possible that Daymar's brand of psychics is viewed as not much >> higher than witchcraft. > > > Yes, but Aliera has at least mild contempt for almost everyone. True; I should have been clearer. I meant that her (mild: clearly she's attempting banter, and it's going right over Daymar's head) contempt was aimed not necessarily at Daymar, but at his skills. He uses his psychic ability to float ostentatiously and has acquired a reputation for mind-probing teckla; naturally, she'll roll her eyes and mock him. Yes, he's a supremely powerful psychic, but the impression I get from Aliera is that she considers this to be as useful as a goldfish mastering the bicycle. It's impressive, but ultimately pointless. Mind you, *I'm* not suggesting that Daymar's skills are pointless, just that they are probably viewed a notch above witchcraft, if that. As we have seen, Dragaerans in general dismiss witchcraft as a skill, despite its obvious (to the reader and to Vlad & co.) usefulness. I imagine that much the same happens with Daymar and psionics/psychics. > Even Vlad, when she first met him in /Taltos/. This doesn't come as any surprise; she considers him her inferior. > And certainly for Sethra throughout FHYA. Also not surprising. It's interesting; she more or less reacts the same way to her superiors or inferiors: mild contempt/haughtiness/arrogance. Very typical Dragon. > And this exchange is even typical for her and Morrolan, who we know > she has no *real* contempt for. > > Aliera tends to mask her real feelings behind a facade of snippiness. > I think it's a defense mechanism. Well, yeah. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 11 23:33:54 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:33:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> <43C5BD05.90004@comcast.net> <43C5E2AD.1030302@earthlink.net> <43C5E61C.6040409@comcast.net> <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Jose Marquez wrote: > her (mild: clearly she's attempting banter, and it's going right over > Daymar's head) Clearly he should float higher. > contempt was aimed not necessarily at Daymar, but at his skills. > He uses his psychic ability to float ostentatiously Note that A used to do some floating herself (I think not at the time of _J_ though). Perhaps there's a double self-loathing here - she was self-conscious about her height, and having stopped levitating for effect she reacts more strongly than normal to those who still do. Or just overcompensation. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 06:36:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:36:42 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 09:01 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh >can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of >psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is different from normal psychic contact. There was an internal decision-making process that said, "I need a way to shield Vlad from Psychic energy to hide him from the Jhereg, but I need to keep up the ongoing conversations between him and Loiosh while I do so." And rather than explaining a contrived difference between Vlad/Loiosh's conversations and normal psychic ones, Brust simply notes that there *is* a difference of some kind, and moves along. This is not a criticism. In fact, it's a rather elegant way of preventing a piece of fairly meaningless minutae from getting in the way of a good story. However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy (which does not). >contact Vlad or even trace him using psionics/psychics because of the >disruptive field. It also causes him to be unable to contact others. I >don't remember what the results of Sethra's experiments showed regarding >the properties of Phoenix Stones. No results of this were ever offered to the reader, so it's not surprising that you don't remember them. ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 12 07:20:00 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:20:00 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Given Daymar's power, I think anyone who has *genuine* contempt for > someone who can break through a military teleport block -- not to > mention everything else Daymar has done -- is entirely confused. > Don't confuse contempt for Daymar with contempt for his science or his skills. Daymar is the quintessential nerd. His associates have the same reactions to him that a group of high-school friends would have to the "bookworm" in the group who couldn't get less than an 'A' even if he tried to fail, talked above everyone's heads half the time, and had no clue that anyone might find him annoying. His place in the social group doesn't come from his personality. It comes from being basically forthright at all times and useful for skills and knowledge that the rest of the group would otherwise have no inkling of or access to. . The fact that the "nerd" is oblivious to both his nerdiness and to the teasing he gets from his friends is simply the hallmark of his role in the group. Being completely unaware/uninterested in the obvious personal gain he could achieve from it is a more than adequate reason for most people to hold him in contempt. In the "parable of the onion", Vlad insinuates that this is a trait of Hawklords in general, though I think Daymar may be an extreme case. Interesting picturing Vlad and Co. as the Archie gang. I imagine that Vlad and Loiosh would have an interesting conversation about which one of them is Jughead. *heh* As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably several branches of "fringe" schools of magic. As noted, it seems to be rather similar to Witchcraft, though it's methods are derived from the Dragaeran left-brain approach to such things compared to the Eastern right-brain approach. It might well be a hallmark of House Hawk that it has nearly as many "schools" of esoteric science as it has family lines to research and teach them. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 07:35:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:35:31 -0800 Subject: Psychics Held in Contempt? In-Reply-To: <43C60466.6060707@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/11/06 11:25 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >True; I should have been clearer. I meant that her (mild: clearly she's >attempting banter, and it's going right over Daymar's head) contempt was >aimed not necessarily at Daymar, but at his skills. He uses his psychic >ability to float ostentatiously and has acquired a reputation for >mind-probing teckla; naturally, she'll roll her eyes and mock him. Yes, >he's a supremely powerful psychic, but the impression I get from Aliera >is that she considers this to be as useful as a goldfish mastering the >bicycle. It's impressive, but ultimately pointless. Mind you, *I'm* not Well, I see where you're coming from, and if this comment were from anyone other than Aliera, I might even agree with you. ;-) You'd think the fact that Psychic energy (i.e. Vlad's spell) helped get Morrolan out of the Paths of the Dead might have shown her the usefulness of such things. Frankly, I think the fact that Aliera even deigns to talk to him is an indication of the fact that she has a fair amount of respect for him. Note just how many times she's ever talked to Kragar. >suggesting that Daymar's skills are pointless, just that they are >probably viewed a notch above witchcraft, if that. As we have seen, >Dragaerans in general dismiss witchcraft as a skill, despite its obvious >(to the reader and to Vlad & co.) usefulness. I imagine that much the >same happens with Daymar and psionics/psychics. By the same token, almost all Dragaerans use Psychic communication since the Interregnum ended. Psi-prints are commonly displayed in the homes of prestigious nobles. I don't know what this says about how Dragaerans view the practitioners of such technologies, but think about it this way: How much contempt does *our* society have for photographers or telephone operators? >Also not surprising. It's interesting; she more or less reacts the same >way to her superiors or inferiors: mild contempt/haughtiness/arrogance. >Very typical Dragon. Well, I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say she doesn't *have* any superiors. (Isn't that a trait of Dragons? They are convinced of their own superiority, and that of their house.) Remember, Aliera is still a fairly young Dragon. She was only 500 when Daddy blew up Dragaera City, and she's been in limbo since then, so even though it's 450+ years later, she never really experienced any of that time, and is really still only about 500. Looked at from this angle, she's almost exactly the same maturity level as Morrolan, despite being 500 years his elder. Interesting. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 12 07:54:44 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:54:44 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C67BC4.5000106@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh >>can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of >>psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can > >Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than >anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is >different from normal psychic contact. > > We do know of some real differences. Witchcraft works in the Halls of Judgment. Psychic powers work where sorcery fails. The Serioli and certainly the Jenoine have other magics. What is unclear is how much of these differences are innate and how much of them are developed. We know that Orb based sorcery allows for a convenient way for Dragaerans to do a lot of magic - while greatly reducing the risks of repeating the disasters of the past. This doesn't mean that sorcery has lost the power that it once had - only that the convenient tool is designed for other goals. Can we have Einstein's theory of magic bringing everything together without destroying everything? From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 12 07:56:03 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:56:03 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43C67C13.2030806@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably >several branches of "fringe" schools of magic. As noted, it seems to be >rather similar to Witchcraft, though it's methods are derived from the >Dragaeran left-brain approach to such things compared to the Eastern >right-brain approach. It might well be a hallmark of House Hawk that it has >nearly as many "schools" of esoteric science as it has family lines to >research and teach them. > > > I like this thought. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 08:05:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:05:33 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C67BC4.5000106@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 07:54 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >Can we have Einstein's theory of magic bringing everything together >without destroying everything? Kind of a Grand Unified Sorcerous Field Theory? Sorry, but Daymar is a HawkLORD, not a HawkING. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 12 08:08:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:08:18 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C67EF2.4040503@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > *Howard Brazee * > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > 01/12/06 07:54 AM > > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: Not a witch? > > > > > > > > >Can we have Einstein's theory of magic bringing everything together > >without destroying everything? > > Kind of a Grand Unified Sorcerous Field Theory? > > Sorry, but Daymar is a HawkLORD, not a HawkING. > > Majikjon > > I agree, you are sorry. From scs at di.org Thu Jan 12 07:56:11 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:56:11 -0500 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Was Subject: Re: Not a witch? On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:20:00AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably > several branches of "fringe" schools of magic . . . Note that fringes are sometimes new knowledge which simply hasn't come into the general public yet. A skilled worker developing things which appear to contradict existing principles or which look at things in a radically different way would seem to be off in a fringe until either the knowledge became widespread or the results proved that, no matter how odd it looks, there's something there. As an example, consider the Necromancer. A few of the cognoscenti seem to know what she does; none seem to have actually replicated it. I get the impression that Loraan was researching in the same area, which would certianly make him on the fringe of most Dragaerans. The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans seems to use interchangably with "vampire." But it is not unreasonable to suppose that her own skills could return her, or even make her 'undead' without the normal process of dying. Perhaps this process is required to work in her area of expertise, and Sethra has been studying with her. This might well explain Sethras condition without requiring her to have actually been killed, and the things she said to Vlad about dying and returning were simplifications (you know, lies) to avoid trying to explain the nearly inexplicable. Nah, unlikely. The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. If Loraan was working in the same area, it might well explain how he came back as a 'vampire' without requiring the Gods to send him back. (Note for the nit-picky: no, there's no textev that the Gods were or weren't involved in returning him as a vampire. It just seems odd that they'd do it.) Another thing unexplained by the text is why vampires are treated as fearsome creatures. We've never seen any instance of a vampire acting other than he did in normal life. Sethra seems to have been so unchanged that nobody noticed for years. And Loraan was an asshole on both before and after. We've seen Sethra eat; we've never seen her nor any other vampire drink blood. So why the fear? -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From ike at manor.org Thu Jan 12 08:46:26 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> References: <43C59829.1030801@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Does anyone else have examples of psionic as opposed to psychic? My impression was that it's a difference of active vs. passive, but I have nothing to back it up at the moment. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 09:04:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:04:13 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 07:56 AM To Scott Schultz cc 'Dragaera List' Subject Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >Another thing unexplained by the text is why vampires are treated as >fearsome creatures. We've never seen any instance of a vampire acting >other than he did in normal life. Sethra seems to have been so unchanged >that nobody noticed for years. And Loraan was an asshole on both before >and after. We've seen Sethra eat; we've never seen her nor any other >vampire drink blood. So why the fear? Having just finished /Agyar/ recently, I think I can safely say that Brust has not really described everything it means to be an undead, or a vampire in Dragaera. (Agyar was a tremendous read, BTW. A quality on par with /To Reign in Hell/, which is my absolute favorite Brust book. I highly recommend it for those who haven't read it yet.) We get hints at it from Vlad (especially in /Orca/, when he discusses Sethra's eating habits), but we're not quite sure where Sethra gets the blood she needs to consume. (Maybe this is the true fate of all those Dzur Heroes?) Or maybe Tukko gets it for her. Either way, there may well be more reasons to fear Sethra Lavode than we have seen so far. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 09:22:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:36 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 07:56 AM To Scott Schultz cc 'Dragaera List' Subject Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:20:00AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > >The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans >seems to use interchangably with "vampire." But it is not unreasonable >to suppose that her own skills could return her, or even make her >'undead' without the normal process of dying. Perhaps this process is >required to work in her area of expertise, and Sethra has been studying >with her. This might well explain Sethras condition without requiring >her to have actually been killed, and the things she said to Vlad about >dying and returning were simplifications (you know, lies) to avoid trying >to explain the nearly inexplicable. Nah, unlikely. > >The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who >are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is >undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. Are all undead Vampires? Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? >If Loraan was working in the same area, it might well explain how he >came back as a 'vampire' without requiring the Gods to send him back. >(Note for the nit-picky: no, there's no textev that the Gods were or >weren't involved in returning him as a vampire. It just seems odd that >they'd do it.) And do we know that Loraan was a Vampire? Is the Necromancer a Vampire? I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book this is from. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 12 09:54:23 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:54:23 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Scott Schultz" Cc: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation > Was Subject: Re: Not a witch? > > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:20:00AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > snip > The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans > seems to use interchangably with "vampire." But it is not unreasonable > to suppose that her own skills could return her, or even make her > 'undead' without the normal process of dying. Perhaps this process is > required to work in her area of expertise, and Sethra has been studying > with her. This might well explain Sethras condition without requiring > her to have actually been killed, and the things she said to Vlad about > dying and returning were simplifications (you know, lies) to avoid trying > to explain the nearly inexplicable. Nah, unlikely. > > The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who > are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is > undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. snip > -- > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." > -- Albert Einstein I suspect that the Necromancer is only undead on Dragearea. She is summoned by the LoJ to help out, and whips up a suitable "body" to host her awareness while she is there. It makes sense if you include the "life and death are engineering " quote. Jeff -can't make a host body, but has hosted parties of varying degrees of awareness From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 10:02:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:02:33 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121002j7ca85e72h479336ee68647ecd@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Are all undead Vampires? > > Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? ObGRRM: More frozen zombies! More frozen zombies! More frozen zombies! Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jan 12 10:32:55 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:32:55 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote On 01/12/06 09:22,: > Are all undead Vampires? > > Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? Yep, there are undead besides Vampires. Recall that the Necromancer raised parts of Kana's army when they attacked M's little outpost in Lord of Castle Black. I suspect they were zombies, and not Vamps. :) Chris From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:07:07 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:07:07 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than > anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is > different from normal psychic contact. > > There was an internal decision-making process that said, "I need a way to > shield Vlad from Psychic energy to hide him from the Jhereg, but I need to > keep up the ongoing conversations between him and Loiosh while I do so." > > And rather than explaining a contrived difference between Vlad/Loiosh's > conversations and normal psychic ones, Brust simply notes that there *is* > a difference of some kind, and moves along. Well, yes, but he always does that. Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same methods. Now watch Philip Hart smack me down for abusing the word "quantum". > This is not a criticism. In fact, it's a rather elegant way of preventing > a piece of fairly meaningless minutae from getting in the way of a good > story. > > However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science > Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy > (which does not). > I am not sure if this is necessarily the best definition of the difference between science fiction and fantasy. But I don't think the Dragaera stories could ever be described as being science fiction, despite the addition of genetic engineering and such. Hm. Maybe it's time for another definitions thread. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 12 13:33:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:33:04 -0800 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 01:07 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Not a witch? >Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic >communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal >magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially >put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas >the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky >action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same >methods. Interesting idea. I think I like an analogy that involves Vlad being "entangled" with Loiosh. Seems very appropriate. >Now watch Philip Hart smack me down for abusing the word "quantum". Quantum Abuse: Would that be spooky abuse at a distance? >> However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science >> Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy >> (which does not). > >I am not sure if this is necessarily the best definition of the >difference between science fiction and fantasy. But I don't think the >Dragaera stories could ever be described as being science fiction, >despite the addition of genetic engineering and such. I find that an interesting observation, especially in light of your previous point which you used Quantam Entanglement as an example... ;-) Certainly, this is not the *only* distinction between Fantasy and SF, but it's one of my personal litmus tests. I think my assertion wasn't that the Dragaera books are Science Fiction, but rather, that they float between Fantasy and SF (as many Fantasy authors like to do, these days... See Piers Anthony, Orson Scott Card, Neil Gaiman, etc, etc) Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. Either that, or else just "Fiction". Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060112/d8f5fe10/attachment-0001.html From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:38:31 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:38:31 -0600 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books > is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it > science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. I was going to make the same comment. I've been reading Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion novels (currently "The Curse of Chalion", followed by "Paladin of Souls", a 2004 Hugo winner). Reading a review, I've seen these novels (which otherwise lean very hard to the fantasy side of things) referred to as "Speculative Theology". I rather like that. I'm working on something right now that mines a similar vein, adding a sly vertical element to an otherwise horizontal story. -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:44:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:44:21 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > As for the status of Psychics, I get the impression that there are probably > several branches of "fringe" schools of magic. As noted, it seems to be > rather similar to Witchcraft, though it's methods are derived from the > Dragaeran left-brain approach to such things compared to the Eastern > right-brain approach. It might well be a hallmark of House Hawk that it has > nearly as many "schools" of esoteric science as it has family lines to > research and teach them. > I noted that in /Sethra Lavode/, there was mentioned one "Paarfi of Hovaal" (no relation to the author of the Histories) who headed Sethra's psychic communication corps, who was also a Hawklord. I sort of suspect that Hawks may tend to specialize in psychics. On a tangent, an analogy that occurred to me was that Orb-sorcery might be compared to the steady, standardized voltage, frequency and amperage of electricity that modern society uses, Elder sorcery might be compared to directly tapping nuclear power (the stuff that (sometimes) drives the power plants that produces the electricity that everyone else uses), and psychics is like magnetism (often produced by electricity, but can also exist on its own, and can be very powerful). To continue the (somewhat strained) analogy, witchcraft can be compared to directly exploiting quantum mechanical effects, which are weaker than the more common forces. But there's stuff that can be done with quantum mechanical effects that cannot be done with anything else. Um. Or something like that. Disclaimer: I've just read an article on atom chips, which causes me to want to pretend that I know what I'm talking about when discussing physics. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:46:00 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:46:00 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic > communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal > magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially > put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas > the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky > action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same > methods. > It can't? I thought I remembered Loiosh having trouble communicating with Vlad on Greenaere. I'm almost positive Loiosh commented on the difficulty of sensing *others* there, but I also thought he had trouble communicating with Vlad when Vlad was in jail and Loiosh was flying back for help. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 13:56:03 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:56:03 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic > > communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal > > magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially > > put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas > > the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky > > action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same > > methods. > > > > It can't? I thought I remembered Loiosh having trouble communicating > with Vlad on Greenaere. I'm almost positive Loiosh commented on the > difficulty of sensing *others* there, I would argue that "dampened" is distinct from "defeated". The fact that Vlad and Loiosh could communicate *at all* means that the link was still there. Although I suppose Daymar's getting through later (very weakly) suggests that defeating psychic communication is just an extreme level of dampening. > but I also thought he had > trouble communicating with Vlad when Vlad was in jail and Loiosh was > flying back for help. > But was that due to the Phoenix Stone or to distance? I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that that is the furthest that Loiosh has ever been from Vlad, in the stories we've had so far. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 14:28:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:28:34 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <69dc01c6178b$a7739260$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > The Necromancer is noted as being "undead", a word which most Dragaerans > seems to use interchangably with "vampire." I think we've only seen Vlad refer to Sethra Lavode as being undead, and also as being a vampire. Anything else is you generalizing from one example. > > The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who > are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. The common man does not necessarily know anything of the sort. Vlad just learned about undead being returned by the Gods from Sethra in /Issola/. And the whole vampire thing is a confusion that the terms are synonymous - something that might very well be because Vlad was confused. While a vampire might well be undead, an undead is not necessarily a vampire. > Thus everyone who is > undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. Again, not necessarily. Even granted that *some* undead are returned by the Gods, we cannot conclude that that is the *only* way to become an undead. > If Loraan was working in the same area, it might well explain how he > came back as a 'vampire' without requiring the Gods to send him back. And Loraan was not necessarily a vampire. Indeed, checking "search inside", I see that Vlad explicitly asks Savn about "blood drained" deaths, and when hearing that there are not, muses "So perhaps he is not a vampire." > (Note for the nit-picky: no, there's no textev that the Gods were or > weren't involved in returning him as a vampire. It just seems odd that > they'd do it.) Loraan was a necromancer; he was working on exploring life-states. He may well have figured out how to change the life-state of his own soul such that he became an undead. To the left, it may have been the Jenoine and/or a rogue god who sent him back. > Another thing unexplained by the text is why vampires are treated as > fearsome creatures. We've never seen any instance of a vampire acting > other than he did in normal life. Generalizing from one example again. > And Loraan was an asshole on both before and after. We didn't see much of him before he died. Perhaps he was more of an asshole afterwards? And thinking about it, he wasn't really much more of an asshole than Vlad himself, at least back in the days when Vlad ran a Jhereg territory. > We've seen Sethra eat; we've never seen her nor any other > vampire drink blood. We don't even know if she does drink blood, or how much. Vlad asserts that Sethra "requires very little blood." From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jan 12 15:04:07 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:04:07 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Yep, there are undead besides Vampires. Recall that the Necromancer > raised parts of Kana's army when they attacked M's little outpost in > Lord of Castle Black. I suspect they were zombies, and not Vamps. Technically speaking, those were nothing more than animated corpses; automatons. Undead seems to imply some sentience and in at least some cases a soul that is trapped/stored in a way that prevents it from following its normal path to the afterlife. I tend to envision it as a body/soul link that is external rather than internal. Loraan was a necromancer, whose soul had already been ripped out of his body once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. It's always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of ward around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any case, he almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely caused him to become undead. Heck, for a necromancer there are probably some advantages to being dead when pursuing your vocation. I think we all pretty much assume Sethra's case based upon the statement by Verra in _Taltos_ that Morollan somehow succeeded in leaving the Halls that he would emerge into the "real world" as an undead. We know (or do we?) that she was sent back by the Lords of Judgement and so we apply what we've been told to conclude that she suffered the fate described. We don't really know what "types" of undead there are or what causes a being to become one type or another. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 15:08:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:08:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Actually, I could handwave a vague explanation: Regular psychic > communication is more like telephony or radio; there are formal > magical connections made between individuals. Vlad has essentially > put himself in a Faraday cage by donning the Phoenix stones. Whereas > the witch-familiar bond is more like quantum entanglement ("spooky > action at a distance"), and thus cannot be defeated by the same > methods. > > Now watch Philip Hart smack me down for abusing the word "quantum". No, carry on. Though note that quantum entanglement (which I don't actually believe in, but whatever) doesn't allow communication. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 15:12:36 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:12:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > So, obviously Few words are likelier to provoke a riposte from me (in re Dragaera, anyway). > > the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it > > work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian > > difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same > > thing?) > > I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were > both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. I find this unconvincing. See the synonym/metonym discussion, plus would the referrers actually know? From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 15:33:39 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:33:39 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6E753.9000603@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > >>On 1/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> >>>So, obviously >>> >>> > >Few words are likelier to provoke a riposte from me (in re Dragaera, >anyway). > > Well, I suppose in Dragaera, the obvious things are the ones that should be the most suspect. And if I didn't want a response, I probably wouldn't bother posting here, anyway, so it's all to the good. >>>the important parts of witchcraft (the energy to make it >>>work, anyway) comes from Psychics/Psionics (is there a Brustian >>>difference here? Or are these just two terms Brust uses for the same >>>thing?) >>> >>> >>I am 99.995% certain that they are the same thing, since they were >>both used to refer to what Daymar is able to do. >> >> > >I find this unconvincing. See the synonym/metonym discussion, plus >would the referrers actually know? > > Perhaps I should have asked if there was an *obvious* difference between the terms? ;-) Re-reading /Yendi/ today, I noticed that he uses psionic about half the time, and psychic about half the time, usually in reference to telepathic communication. By the time of /Dragon/, however, when Vlad asks Daymar how he does his thing with the roomful of morganti weapons, the response is "Psychics", and "Psionics" does not appear at all. Now, Dragon basically surrounds Yendi (the meat is set before, the interludes are set after) but the novel itself was written in 1998, vs 1984 for Yendi. Basically, I'm thinking that Brust has simply decided to stop using "psionics" and go with "psychics" 100% of the time, perhaps to avoid confusion over the concepts. I guess we can see how well *that* worked. Just my $0.02. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 15:40:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:40:34 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >It can't? I thought I remembered Loiosh having trouble communicating >with Vlad on Greenaere. I'm almost positive Loiosh commented on the >difficulty of sensing *others* there, but I also thought he had >trouble communicating with Vlad when Vlad was in jail and Loiosh was >flying back for help. > My impression of that was that Loiosh was simply too tired from flying all that way to attempt to do any talking. (By the time Vlad wakes up from the Dreamgrass, Loiosh is already well on his way.) And we don't really know how distance normally affects a familiar/with relationship. The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the width of a single city are: #1) During the escapade on Greenaere #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how far away he and Rocza were during that period) None of these really answer the question, since Vlad doesn't *attempt* communication with Loiosh in any but the first example. There's also that recently-cited bit in /Issola/ where Vlad and Loiosh get "separated" but the distance is not so much measured in feet or miles as it is in planes of existence... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 15:40:47 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Note that it seems likely to me that any amorphia generation by an > >Easterner would likely result in a trip by any witness to an oubliette > >at best. That Vlad wasn't disappeared now strikes me as surprising - > >perhaps Aliera was able to argue that his soul is a sufficient excuse > >for the event and either the truth (doubtful) or some reasonable lie > >(also doubtful) was told to the Left Hand witnesses, probably along with > >a threat should anyone gossip. > > This assumes quite a few things... > > #1) That anyone in that room (other than Vlad and Aliera) had a clear idea > of what was happening at all. You're a professional sorcerer. When you were (your teacher was) young, a guy nearly blew up the world using ES, but fortunately the worst result beyond the immediate massive loss of life was an invasion by Es and plagues and internecine warfare. One day after work an E walks into your bar with one of the top five most famous people in the world at his side. He's got a mini-vulture on his shoulder. There's a melee, he points at one of your colleagues, a friend of yours zaps him but somehow he partly deflects the spell then blasts her with ES. The room starts to dissolve and you split, hide your tracks, and dine out on the story for a week. Later the pointed colleague turns up dead. In the meantime a bunch of people you talked to start getting antsy about an E wielding ES. They wonder: should we start a pogrom just in case? The Athyra begin work on a genetic spell that will kill all Es within a given radius, just in case. Then either a) a lot of people disappear b) you get a visit from the Empire explaining why E is an exception and inviting you to never mention it again or a). > #2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later. Doesn't matter that it's Vlad - see above. Plus, see above - who could fail to identify him? > #3) That the higher-ups in the Jhereg knew what amorphia was, how > incredibly dangerous it is to play around with, and somehow saw it as > their responsibility to take care of the potential danger. This seems 2/3 impossibly wrong and 3/3 irrelevant. Note also that in all likelihood the incident left noticeable traces in the ether and in the matter of the bar. Imagine Suzy Easterner wakes up one morning, turns a garbage heap into chaos, and splits. I would expect this would have incredible political and social repercussions. Ok, there's a good reason why Suzy has the power to destroy the world, so no reason to fear that Cindy or Sally or Sondra E. has that power, but someone will have to broadcast that reason and make everyone believe it, even the ones who think her soul ancestor Captain Shazam is a legend. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jan 12 15:50:58 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 16:10:13 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:10:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >You're a professional sorcerer. When you were (your teacher was) young, >a guy nearly blew up the world using ES, but fortunately the worst result >beyond the immediate massive loss of life was an invasion by Es and >plagues and internecine warfare. One day after work an E walks into your >bar with one of the top five most famous people in the world at his side. > > Actually, it was just Vlad and Aliera (who was freshly back from the Paths of the Dead (by Dragaeran terms, anyway) so she may not have been that well-known to the types of folks in that particular establishment). And they teleported in, so it was sudden and unexpected. >He's got a mini-vulture on his shoulder. There's a melee, he points at >one of your colleagues, a friend of yours zaps him but somehow he partly > > Vlad couldn't point at the time, he was completely immobilized. >deflects the spell then blasts her with ES. The room starts to dissolve >and you split, hide your tracks, and dine out on the story for a week. >Later the pointed colleague turns up dead. In the meantime a bunch of >people you talked to start getting antsy about an E wielding ES. They >wonder: should we start a pogrom just in case? The Athyra begin work >on a genetic spell that will kill all Es within a given radius, just in >case. Then either > >a) a lot of people disappear >b) you get a visit from the Empire explaining why E is an exception >and inviting you to never mention it again or a). > > Ummm.. Mass genocide against an entire population for the actions of one individual isn't something that is easily achieved in a free society. The population of Dragaera wouldn't put up with that. How would Morrolan, or Aliera or Sethra feel about that? Or, for that matter, how would the Empress react to that, given that her lover is an Easterner? Heck, even the death camps of the Nazis were called "Relocation camps" until after the Jews got onto the trains. (Meaining they had to sort of hide what they were doing, at least at first, to prevent a general revolt.) >>#2) That any of the witnesses were able to identify Vlad later. >> >> > >Doesn't matter that it's Vlad - see above. Plus, see above - who >could fail to identify him? > > A bunch of freaked out Jhereg with no idea who he was or what he was doing who didn't notice him when he teleported in. I wouldn't count on reliable eyewitness testimony from any of 'em. >>#3) That the higher-ups in the Jhereg knew what amorphia was, how >>incredibly dangerous it is to play around with, and somehow saw it as >>their responsibility to take care of the potential danger. >> >> > >This seems 2/3 impossibly wrong and 3/3 irrelevant. Note also that >in all likelihood the incident left noticeable traces in the ether >and in the matter of the bar. > >Imagine Suzy Easterner wakes up one morning, turns a garbage heap >into chaos, and splits. I would expect this would have incredible >political and social repercussions. Ok, there's a good reason why >Suzy has the power to destroy the world, so no reason to fear that >Cindy or Sally or Sondra E. has that power, but someone will have >to broadcast that reason and make everyone believe it, even the >ones who think her soul ancestor Captain Shazam is a legend. > > But if Suzy is good friends with Sethra Lavode, who just happens to be friends with Khaavren, who just happens to be in charge of enforcing the laws in Adrilankha, maybe she gets overlooked? Maybe the evidence gets covered up? Especially when The-Powers-that-Be are given assurances from Sethra that such a thing won't happen again? And besides, who's going to believe that sweet little innocent Suzy (or, in this case, our disreputable, low-life Easterner plus jhereg) *really has* that power in the first place? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 16:14:14 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:14:14 -0800 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43C6F0D6.1050509@comcast.net> rone wrote: >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books > is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it > science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. > >I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's >another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. > > Historical Fiction? Romance Novels? Murder Mysteries? Sure, all of them *involve* some small amount of speculation, but they are not *centered* around a speculative premise. They're just fictional instances of things that actually happen all the time.(Or actually did happen, as in the first example.) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 12 16:41:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:41:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >You're a professional sorcerer. When you were (your teacher was) young, > >a guy nearly blew up the world using ES, but fortunately the worst result > >beyond the immediate massive loss of life was an invasion by Es and > >plagues and internecine warfare. One day after work an E walks into your > >bar with one of the top five most famous people in the world at his side. > > > > > Actually, it was just Vlad and Aliera (who was freshly back from the ^^^^??? > Paths of the Dead (by Dragaeran terms, anyway) so she may not have been > that well-known to the types of folks in that particular establishment). She's a Dragon. With golden hair and a winsome upturned nose that no one can forget. Oh, and a GW. > And they teleported in, so it was sudden and unexpected. You must not have heard any "guy walks into a bar" jokes. The suddenness makes it more likely to have been noticed. > > >He's got a mini-vulture on his shoulder. There's a melee, he points at > >one of your colleagues, a friend of yours zaps him but somehow he partly > > > > > Vlad couldn't point at the time, he was completely immobilized. Hence him pointing first, before he gets immobilized. That's how I remember events happening - Vlad pointing, Aliera swashbuckling, Vlad resting. Anyway, they've got memories, presumably there are ways of accessing them. Psionics, whatever. And regardless - "This E walked into the bar. He was wearing Jhereg colors and had an oyster on his shoulder and got zapped and then amorphia ate Jennalyn and I split." "Oyster?" "I don't know, it all happened fast, he was an E though, and the amorphia shot out of him like one of those alien things that grow in your stomach." "Uhh, maybe you mean the only male E working in the Jhereg, who's known to hang with Aliera and wear a pocket dragon like a parrot, depicted in this image here?" "Yeah, that's him." > Ummm.. Mass genocide against an entire population for the actions of one > individual isn't something that is easily achieved in a free society. A free society? And for that matter, given how recent 9/11 was, ... > The population of Dragaera wouldn't put up with that. How would > Morrolan, or Aliera or Sethra feel about that? Or, for that matter, how > would the Empress react to that, given that her lover is an Easterner? If your historic enemy/recent empire-corpse-vulture/current oppressed despised underclass suddenly shows signs of having world-destroying power, anything's possible. It's not as if StY's plans for the East don't in all likelihood involve what we'd conventionally consider war crimes. There would be a fight. But as was clear in the _T_/_P_ Uprising, Vlad's friends will slaughter any number of E in defense of the empire, even a token fly-swatting sort of defense. I wonder about the events of _A_ - how could Loraan/Istvaan not worry about being ESed to cinders? From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:01:00 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:01:00 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Loraan was a necromancer, whose soul had already been ripped out of his body > once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it > appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. You are misremembering. Vlad was the one who said "Take it up with Morrolan. Or rather with Blackwand." (when Kiera expresses surprise that Loraan had been operating after being attacked by Vlad and Morrolan) Vlad does not know for a fact that Loraan's soul was consumed by Blackwand, and neither do we. Vlad (and we) had reason to assume that it had been, since he was there in the melee, and when Vlad last saw Loraan, it was as a body with a large slash to the chest. However, Vlad never saw Blackwand actually strike Loraan, nor did he know Loraan's life-state at the point that any putative strike occured. > It's always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of > ward around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any > case, he almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely > caused him to become undead. I nearly think that this has been Speculated upon already. Although that article badly needs to be re-written. > > I think we all pretty much assume Sethra's case based upon the statement by > Verra in _Taltos_ that Morollan somehow succeeded in leaving the Halls that > he would emerge into the "real world" as an undead. We know (or do we?) that > she was sent back by the Lords of Judgement She claims as much in /Issola/. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 17:05:17 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:05:17 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >>Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> > ^^^^??? > > Sorry, thought I read "with the five most famous people in the empire...", my bad. >She's a Dragon. With golden hair and a winsome upturned nose that no one can forget. Oh, and a GW. > > >You must not have heard any "guy walks into a bar" jokes. > >The suddenness makes it more likely to have been noticed. > > Interview #1 (Male Jhegaala): So, there I was at the "Rusty Janos", having a drink and all of a sudden a bunch of people behind me stood up, blocking my view. Before I knew what was happening, this big glowing mass of, well, *something* starts spreading, and I decide it's a good time to check out what's going on on the other side of the city. Interview #2 (Female teckla): I'm sorry, officer, I must have fainted, and I don't remember a thing. Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. Interview #4 (Male Teckla): I saw the whole thing. First this gang of Jhereg easterners teleport in, and start throwing knives at everyone, then this group of Left-Hand Jhereg start throwing lightning-bolts randomly into the crowd from the other side of the room. Before I can blink twice, half the sorceresses are dead, the Jhereg all get killed, and one of the sorceresses starts melting away the center of the room in some sort of cloudy mush. That's when I ran out of there. Interview #5 (Female Jhereg, Left-Hand): <> >Hence him pointing first, before he gets immobilized. That's how I >remember events happening - Vlad pointing, Aliera swashbuckling, Vlad >resting. > > Ah. You're thinking of when *Aliera* pointed out the Female Jhereg to Vlad. Then she left, chasing the one she had pointed at, just after another Sorceress attacks Vlad, immobilizing him. He then pulls out the Elder Sorcery on the /second/ sorceress. > >A free society? > >And for that matter, given how recent 9/11 was, ... > > Still wouldn't convince the Empress to destroy an entire race out of hand. Especially when she's dating one of them. And yes, Dragaeran's have a relatively free society. Stratified, certainly, but even Teckla don't generally get arrested for having run away from their masters; it seems pretty darn liberal for a feudal civilization. >If your historic enemy/recent empire-corpse-vulture/current oppressed >despised underclass suddenly shows signs of having world-destroying power, >anything's possible. > Well, anything's *possible*. I just don't see it as likely. >It's not as if StY's plans for the East don't in >all likelihood involve what we'd conventionally consider war crimes. > > Ah, but that's during a foreign war fought way far away--and, I might add, not one that the then-Empress was willing to fight. And they *still* wouldn't be able to slaughter the entire species without doing some pretty serious explaining. (Would Imperial Dragon soliders consider it honarable to slaughter countless millions of civilian men, women and children?) >There would be a fight. But as was clear in the _T_/_P_ Uprising, >Vlad's friends will slaughter any number of E in defense of the empire, >even a token fly-swatting sort of defense. > > Fighting back against an army of pitch-fork wielding rabble? Yes. Killing an entire species against the possibility of some vague threat posed by a single individual that Sethra Lavode has promised will not be a problem? Not so much. >I wonder about the events of _A_ - how could Loraan/Istvaan not worry >about being ESed to cinders? > Perhaps the information was somehow supressed? Maybe? Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:07:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:07:41 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: . > > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > width of a single city are: > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ Are you sure about this one? I seem to recall that Vlad stayed with Loiosh while Savn worked on him, and took Loiosh with him when he went into Northport to confront Timmer. Indeed, a plot point hinges on Loiosh's presence. Rocza did the visual scouting for them, relayed to Vlad by Loiosh, since Loiosh was not up to actually flying at that point. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:11:23 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:11:23 -0800 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, rone wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > Really, I think the only real category you could call the Dragaera books > is the "other" SF, "Speculative Fiction". This nicely avoids calling it > science, but still allows for magical things and science things to appear. > > I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's > another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. > How about "subjunctive fiction"? From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 17:14:11 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:14:11 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43C6FEE3.4040005@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >. > > >>The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the >>width of a single city are: >> >>#1) During the escapade on Greenaere >>#2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ >> >> > >Are you sure about this one? I seem to recall that Vlad stayed with >Loiosh while Savn worked on him, and took Loiosh with him when he went >into Northport to confront Timmer. Indeed, a plot point hinges on >Loiosh's presence. > >Rocza did the visual scouting for them, relayed to Vlad by Loiosh, >since Loiosh was not up to actually flying at that point. > I thought I remembered that Vlad made at least one trip out of the house on his own while Loiosh stayed home. But reviewing it, it looks like he did go with him, just not in very good shape. Oh well, strike one more example off the list. (And we can see how rare it really is for Vlad & Loiosh to be apart from each other...) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:25:15 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:25:15 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): > > I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. > It occurrs to me that this is the explanation that is most likely to propagate. After all, which is more likely - that Aliera e'Kieron; * known descendent of Adron e'Kieron (famed for messing about with amorphia, with Disasterous effects); *of the e'Kieron line (known for having the ability to mess about with amorphia); * with a reputation for recklessness, ferocity, a disdain for rules and laws, and an interest in Elder Sorcery and messing about with amorphia; *closely associated with the abovementioned Disaster due to said interest in messing about with amorphia; has been messing about with amorphia -- or that some random Easterner has spontaneously gained the ability to mess about with amorphia? Anyone who hears about the incident is going to focus on the presence of Aliera, and no doubt say "Oy. /Her/, again. Well, at least she didn't destroy Adrilankha." If Vlad gets mentioned at all, it might be as "I wonder what was so special about him that she thought it was worth risking the creation of a new Sea of Chaos?" From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:50:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:50:05 -0700 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > width of a single city are: > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ > #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how > far away he and Rocza were during that period) > > None of these really answer the question, since Vlad doesn't *attempt* > communication with Loiosh in any but the first example. #4 the first time Vlad visited Dzur Mountain, in /Taltos/, and I think when Vlad visits Verra in /Phoenix/. But your comment still applies. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:54:56 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:54:56 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121754j21cc528bs11950f6c57c25817@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it > appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. It's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In reference to Loraan? I don't remember that. Or are you referring to the Paths of the Dead? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 17:56:43 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:56:43 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121754j21cc528bs11950f6c57c25817@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C6A0D7.2090108@Sun.COM> <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0601121754j21cc528bs11950f6c57c25817@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601121756ne0df3f5of44776b05845bbb7@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > In reference to Loraan? I don't remember that. Or are you referring to > the Paths of the Dead? Never mind. That'll teach me to post before finishing the thread. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 18:08:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:08:56 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > > width of a single city are: > > > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ > > #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how > > far away he and Rocza were during that period) > > > > None of these really answer the question, since Vlad doesn't *attempt* > > communication with Loiosh in any but the first example. > > #4 the first time Vlad visited Dzur Mountain, in /Taltos/, Hm. And also Castle Black, before that, I see. > and I think when Vlad visits Verra in /Phoenix/. > Which time? Loiosh was with him the first time, and I don't have the time just now to search out the others. > But your comment still applies. Well, yes. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 00:07:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:07:08 -0800 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: <43C5E2A3.5090504@earthlink.net> <2ddbda5f0601121346h6e259834yd98a0b353a18a3bd@mail.gmail.com> <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> <2ddbda5f0601121750rd1b4b46qeeebd98e8a268cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > and I think when Vlad visits Verra in /Phoenix/. > > > > Which time? Loiosh was with him the first time, and I don't have the > time just now to search out the others. > Well, since I did the research just now, I can verify that Loiosh went with Vlad every time that he was in Verra's Halls. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 06:21:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:07 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <6e2101c617cc$7d720730$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 03:04 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >Loraan was a necromancer, whose soul had already been ripped out of his body >once by Blackwand, who chose to preserve it rather than consume it,or so it >appears based upon Morollan's "take it up with Blackwand" comment. It's >always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of ward >around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any case, he >almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely caused him >to become undead. Heck, for a necromancer there are probably some advantages >to being dead when pursuing your vocation. > >I think we all pretty much assume Sethra's case based upon the statement by >Verra in _Taltos_ that Morollan somehow succeeded in leaving the Halls that >he would emerge into the "real world" as an undead. We know (or do we?) that >she was sent back by the Lords of Judgement and so we apply what we've been >told to conclude that she suffered the fate described. We don't really know >what "types" of undead there are or what causes a being to become one type >or another. Actually, I believe Verra said that Morrolan would "feel his life ebbing away..." and that they "might succeed in bringing a corpse out of the paths..." To me, this doesn't say that he would become undead... It says he would come out just plain dead. Majikjon "There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With *all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his clothes and look for loose change." --MM From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 06:36:24 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:36:24 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/12/06 05:01 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >> It's always possible that Lorran had already managed to cast some sort of >> ward around his soul that prevented Blackwand from reaching it. In any >> case, he almost certainly did some hocus pocus to himself that purposely >> caused him to become undead. > >I nearly think that this has been Speculated upon already. Although >that article badly needs to be re-written. That's Speculation:Loraan, isn't it? Yeah, that one kind of grew out of the "Talk" page and was never really formatted very well. Go ahead and tackle it, if you like, or I can get it if you're not interested/don't have time. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060113/ce122b12/attachment-0001.htm From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 06:58:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:58:17 -0800 Subject: Fw: Not a witch? Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson 01/13/06 06:29 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc Subject Re: Not a witch? On 1/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> come to be. I would venture to guess that may be because he was very young (in his >> early-to-mid twenties?) at the time and still had the brash arrogance of youth. > >My impression was that he thought he was going to his death and didn't Yes, but I'd wager if he had to make a similar trip today he wouldn't be willing to leave Loiosh behind. Of course, the fact that he has a Great Weapon and a bunch of powerful friends makes something of a difference, as well, I suppose. >want to take Loiosh down with him. Note that Vlad is *still* in his >twenties, the way I count time. Checking Alex's speculative timeline, I see he estimates Vlad's age at 18 during Taltos, 21-22 and by the time of Phoenix. We don't really have a clear idea of how many years he's been wandering the countryside, but Alex speculates he's 26 or so by the time of Issola. Now, I might take issue with some of this (My impression is that Vlad was out in the world for 5-6 years by the time of Athyra) but this would still make him only barely 30 years old. Funny. I'd always thought of him as close to 30 by the time he met Cawti. The only way this works is if his birth gets pushed back earlier than 222, but this doesn't really jive with what Noish-Pa tells Vlad about the riots of 221, so... Majikjon From johne.cook at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 08:13:14 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:13:14 -0600 Subject: SF vs. Fantasy, which is witch? In-Reply-To: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060112235059.10FFA682BD@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 1/12/06, rone wrote: > I hate the term 'speculative fiction', because it implies that there's > another kind of fiction that isn't speculative. > > rone Speculative Fiction has the right initials going for it, if nothing else. ; ) -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://dkamagazine.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 11:59:17 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:59:17 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >"There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With >*all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his >clothes and look for loose change." --MM > > > Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 12:01:52 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:01:52 -0700 Subject: Fw: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C80730.6050006@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Checking Alex's speculative timeline, I see he estimates Vlad's age at 18 >during Taltos, 21-22 and by the time of Phoenix. > >We don't really have a clear idea of how many years he's been wandering >the countryside, but Alex speculates he's 26 or so by the time of Issola. > >Now, I might take issue with some of this (My impression is that Vlad was >out in the world for 5-6 years by the time of Athyra) but this would still >make him only barely 30 years old. > >Funny. I'd always thought of him as close to 30 by the time he met Cawti. >The only way this works is if his birth gets pushed back earlier than 222, >but this doesn't really jive with what Noish-Pa tells Vlad about the riots >of 221, so... > > I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with particular known and unknown family members. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 13 12:10:32 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:10:32 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation References: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >"There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With > >*all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his > >clothes and look for loose change." --MM > > > > > > > Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? I almost think he has. . . or at least seen the movie too many times. Of course the book is superior, as they usually are, but it also helped clear up a few things that confused me in the movie. (Inigo and Westly's duel, for example) Jeff - is also no one of consequence From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 12:12:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:12:17 -0800 Subject: How's Noish-Pa these days? In-Reply-To: <43C80730.6050006@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 12:01 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Fw: Not a witch? >I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality >some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his >absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with >particular known and unknown family members. One of my notions is that Noish-Pa ends up being a better administrator of Szurke County than most other Dragaeran nobility. I get these visions of him lowering all his Teckla traditional tribute percentages to a mere fraction, resulting in a happy, healthy, prosperous region with a booming population and high tax revenues due to a robust economy. He'd probably pour all this extra wealth back into benefits for the commmoners, kicking the cycle into ever higher spirals. When Vlad comes back to claim his estate, he may find that he's become *very* rich indeed. But hey, there's always the chance that a jealous neighbor in a nearby county might try to stir up trouble for him, so things may not be all sweetness and light. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 12:14:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:14:08 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 11:59 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >"There's a big difference between *mostly* dead, and *all* dead. With >*all* dead there's usually only one thing you can do: Go through his >clothes and look for loose change." --MM > > Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? Not nearly as many times as I've seen the movie... Say only about 3-4 times. Majikjon Billy Crystal as Miracle Max is, I think, his finest performance. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 12:19:31 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:19:31 -0700 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <43C80695.6040906@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43C80B53.1060101@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >> Have you ever read _The Princess Bride_? >I almost think he has. . . > >or at least seen the movie too many times. Of course the book is superior, >as they usually are, but it also helped clear up a few things that confused >me in the movie. (Inigo and Westly's duel, for example) > >Jeff > > I've heard that said before - but as far as successful transition from novel to movie - /*_The Princess Bride_*/ is pretty close to the top. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 13 12:20:40 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:20:40 -0700 Subject: How's Noish-Pa these days? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C80B98.9060908@brazee.net> I wonder why it is that when I read Jon's posts using Thunderbird, I get a real tiny font that I need to cut and paste into another editor to read. Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > *Howard Brazee * > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > 01/13/06 12:01 PM > > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: Fw: Not a witch? > > > > > > > > >I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality > >some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his > >absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with > >particular known and unknown family members. > > One of my notions is that Noish-Pa ends up being a better > administrator of Szurke County than most other Dragaeran nobility. > > I get these visions of him lowering all his Teckla traditional tribute > percentages to a mere fraction, resulting in a happy, healthy, > prosperous region with a booming population and high tax revenues due > to a robust economy. > > He'd probably pour all this extra wealth back into benefits for the > commmoners, kicking the cycle into ever higher spirals. > > When Vlad comes back to claim his estate, he may find that he's become > *very* rich indeed. > > But hey, there's always the chance that a jealous neighbor in a nearby > county might try to stir up trouble for him, so things may not be all > sweetness and light. > > Majikjon > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 12:44:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:44:50 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <43C80B53.1060101@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 12:19 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >Jeff G. wrote: > >>or at least seen the movie too many times. Of course the book is superior, >>as they usually are, but it also helped clear up a few things that confused >>me in the movie. (Inigo and Westly's duel, for example) >> >I've heard that said before - but as far as successful transition from >novel to movie - /*_The Princess Bride_*/ is pretty close to the top. It's because William Goldman is about the best screenplay writer there is. Oh, excuse me, I meant "S. Morgenstern". Majikjon (Helping to show that SKZB is neither the first, nor the last, to attribute authorship to a fictional character...) From scs at di.org Fri Jan 13 13:30:06 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:30:06 -0500 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:22:36AM -0800, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Steve Simmons > >The common man (ie, Vlad, etc) knows that the undead are vampires who > >are returned by the Gods for their own purposes. Thus everyone who is > >undead (a vampire) must have been returned by the Gods. > Are all undead Vampires? Well, yes, that's my question. My paragraph above might possibly have been followed with the comment ''...and we all know neither Vlad nor the Common Man are never wrong'' but that seemed to be driving the point home a bit too firmly. > Are there no Wraiths, Wights, Zombies, Were-Wolves, or their ilk? Good question. Was Keira a wraith when she wasn't dead but didn't have a body? Is Keiron a wriath? The arguement could be made that one or both are wraiths in a Dragaeran sense. And the Necromancer raised up a bunch of walking dead soldiers in 'Viscount,' IMHO they were close enough to zombies for me. > And do we know that Loraan was a Vampire? > Is the Necromancer a Vampire? Cf 'that's my question' above. > I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and > that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book > this is from. Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 13:38:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:38:17 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 01:30 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, 'Dragaera List' Subject Re: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation >> I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and >> that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book >> this is from. > >Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? I think it's that quote from /Athyra/ that Davdi alluded to earlier--when Vlad is asking Savn about any unexplained bloodlettings in the area, in reference to Loraan. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 13:52:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:52:02 -0800 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On 1/13/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 09:22:36AM -0800, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Steve Simmons > > > And do we know that Loraan was a Vampire? > > Is the Necromancer a Vampire? > > Cf 'that's my question' above. > > > I seem to remember Vlad implying that there are other types of undead, and > > that Sethra just happened to be a Vampire, but I can't remember what book > > this is from. > > Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? Nearly. Vlad referring to Loraan, and therefore demonstrating that at least Vlad thinks that it is possible to be an undead but not a vampire: /Athyra/: "So perhaps he is not a vampire. Although that proves nothing. Sethra is a vampire, but she still eats and drinks, and requires very little blood." Vlad, referring to Sethra Lavode and the Necromancer, therefore demonstrating that he thinks that they are both undead. /Issola/: "The two pale, black-clad undead women regarded each other-thin faces, ancient eyes; sort of a strange mirror image." Vlad, implying that as far as he knows, the Necromancer is not a vampire; that is, he would have phrased it differently if he thought she is a vampire, rather than just looking like one: /Issola/: "In addition, though I knew Sethra was a vampire, the Necromancer looked like one-so pale, wasted, drawn; like someone in the last stages of some horrible disease." From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 14:18:55 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:18:55 -0800 Subject: META: Mail and mailer configuration Message-ID: On 1/13/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder why it is that when I read Jon's posts using Thunderbird, I get > a real tiny font that I need to cut and paste into another editor to read. > When Jon sends mail from stream.com, his mailer software (Lotus Notes Release 6.5.4) adds an HTML attachment, in which the font is change by a tag setting the size to "1" (font size=1 face="sans-serif")(which is indeed small). This attachment is stripped out by the mailing list software (X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5), so those of us who are not direct recipients only see the text component of the e-mail. However, when he responds to someone directly, that person sees the e-mail that contains the HTML attachment, and the HTML is displayed by default. options: *Thunderbird can be configured to show text only (Menu->View->Message Body As -> Plain Text) *Thunderbird can increase the font size (Menu->View->Text Size->Increase)(or a keystroke: Ctrl++) *Jon could make sure that the only recipient is the list, so that the attachment is always stripped before anyone receives it *Jon could change the settings on Lotus Notes so that it only sends plain text anyway, or at least, so that the attachment is in a less tiny font. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 13 14:45:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:45:59 -0800 Subject: META: Mail and mailer configuration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/13/06 02:18 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject META: Mail and mailer configuration >On 1/13/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> I wonder why it is that when I read Jon's posts using Thunderbird, I get >> a real tiny font that I need to cut and paste into another editor to read. >> > >When Jon sends mail from stream.com, his mailer software (Lotus Notes >Release 6.5.4) adds an HTML attachment, in which the font is change by >a tag setting the size to "1" (font size=1 face="sans-serif")(which is >indeed small). This attachment is stripped out by the mailing list >software (X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5), so those of >us who are not direct recipients only see the text component of the >e-mail. However, when he responds to someone directly, that person >sees the e-mail that contains the HTML attachment, and the HTML is >displayed by default. > >options: > >*Thunderbird can be configured to show text only >(Menu->View->Message Body As -> Plain Text) >*Thunderbird can increase the font size > (Menu->View->Text Size->Increase)(or a keystroke: Ctrl++) >*Jon could make sure that the only recipient is the list, so that the >attachment is always stripped before anyone receives it >*Jon could change the settings on Lotus Notes so that it only sends >plain text anyway, or at least, so that the attachment is in a less >tiny font. Another option would be to enable redundant mailings in your list options, (where the list will send you a copy of every message, regardless of whether the original was also sent directly to you, or not) and then only read the messages that come through the list, rather than the ones directly from the sender. Incidentally, I have already upped the default text size in my mailer so this should be better in future from *me*, but I've noticed this same behavior from others, as well, so if you want to protect your eyes, you might want to look at one of these other alternatives. Majikjon (Who would be using Thunderbird at work if he had any choice... ;-) ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060113/940bc43b/attachment-0001.html From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 03:19:33 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 06:19:33 -0500 Subject: How's Noish-Pa these days? In-Reply-To: References: <43C80730.6050006@brazee.net> Message-ID: Well, I highly suspect Morrolan, Aliera, and Sethra would dissaude them. On 1/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Howard Brazee > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/13/06 12:01 PM > > To > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > cc > > Subject > Re: Fw: Not a witch? > > > > > >I like the idea that he was gone long enough to change his personality > >some. What intrigues me is what happened to his family during his > >absence - and what Steve has planned for his relationship with > >particular known and unknown family members. > > One of my notions is that Noish-Pa ends up being a better administrator of > Szurke County than most other Dragaeran nobility. > > I get these visions of him lowering all his Teckla traditional tribute > percentages to a mere fraction, resulting in a happy, healthy, prosperous > region with a booming population and high tax revenues due to a robust > economy. > > He'd probably pour all this extra wealth back into benefits for the > commmoners, kicking the cycle into ever higher spirals. > > When Vlad comes back to claim his estate, he may find that he's become > *very* rich indeed. > > But hey, there's always the chance that a jealous neighbor in a nearby > county might try to stir up trouble for him, so things may not be all > sweetness and light. > > Majikjon > > > > > From howard at brazee.net Sat Jan 14 06:05:54 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:05:54 -0700 Subject: META: Mail and mailer configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C90542.4050101@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Another option would be to enable redundant mailings in your list options, >(where the list will send you a copy of every message, regardless of >whether the original was also sent directly to you, or not) and then only >read the messages that come through the list, rather than the ones >directly from the sender. > > > That would be irritating - but not as irritating as the small text. I started looking for instructions on how to do this before I noticed the following: >Incidentally, I have already upped the default text size in my mailer so >this should be better in future from *me*, but I've noticed this same >behavior from others, as well, so if you want to protect your eyes, you >might want to look at one of these other alternatives. > >Majikjon > > > It worked. I read your message nicely. >(Who would be using Thunderbird at work if he had any choice... ;-) ) > > I use Thunderbird at work for my home e-mail, but use Outlook exchange server for my work e-mail. The exchange server has a few advantages: 1. E-mail is kept on the exchange server, so I can access already read messages using the web. I can only access unread messages on my provider's server. 2. Outlook's calendar is integrated well - Mozilla's Thunderbird isn't. 3. Various address lists are available. Quoting is mixed. In the new version of Outlook, I can get an HTML message, try to reply, but can't get rid of the quote line to add my own message. I sometimes give up , cut and paste the header fields, and start a new message. But Thunderbird's quoting also is bad, in that I can't select some text, hit reply, and then find only the selected text quoted. I've thought about using one of my newsreaders, which do this better - but e-mail is important enough that I want a common standard, separate from news, that will allow me to retrieve important saved messages from backups to my next computer. From scs at di.org Sat Jan 14 08:27:09 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:27:09 -0500 Subject: Vampire/Necromancer/Loraan speculation In-Reply-To: References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 01:52:02PM -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/13/06, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Hmm, I must have missed that. Anybody got a textref? > > Nearly. [ details elided ] Excellent. Thanks. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jan 14 15:42:28 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:42:28 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> While working on the Lyorn Records wikicity, I've compiled a few relatively minor questions about certain characters that it would help to have answers to, just for the purposes of clarification. Steve, if you've got the time an inclination, it'd be awesome to know the answers to the following: 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both equally valid? 2. What is the gender of the Chreotha "Deppian" who is referred to by both genders in /Paths of the Dead/? The character is referred to as a "she" at the top of the page, then as a "he" a few paragraphs later. Chapter 14, Page 133, paperback. (Or were the Countess and her spouse perhaps both present at this meeting with K?na?) 3. Is Grassfog's sister named "Tsira" (as it appears in the text of /Sethra Lavode/) or "Tsani" (as it appears in the front matter)? I'm guessing that "Tsani" is a typo, since the name "Tsira" is used consitantly in the body of the book, but I didn't know if one of these might be a nickname or something. 4. Cwelli and Olani; Savn's parents. Which is which? (I'll completely understand if you don't care to answer this one, as it seems to be deliberately vague in the story itself--but it would be an enormous benefit to the "Dramatis Personae" page on the wikicity to able to to identify them a little more clearly. Thanks tremendously for any response. Jon Lincicum, aka Majikjon From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 15 13:58:52 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:58:52 EST Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*know about Kragar?) Message-ID: <143.546bccef.30fc1f9c@aol.com> Log0n5150 at hotmail.com wrote on 1/9/2006 4:18:54 PM >Well, she has a way. That's as good as a plan, isn't it? Heh, did you get the DVD yet? From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 14:02:07 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:02:07 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, that would start the rumors! ...too bad Steve's already said Kieron and Aliera will conceive Devera. Otherwise Vlad could do it. It'd be deliciously ironic. On 1/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > If Vlad gets mentioned at all, it might be as "I wonder what was so > special about him that she thought it was worth risking the creation > of a new Sea of Chaos?" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060115/5cba7472/attachment-0001.htm From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jan 15 14:49:18 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:49:18 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CAD16E.1010609@comcast.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >Oh, that would start the rumors! > >...too bad Steve's already said Kieron and Aliera will conceive Devera. >Otherwise Vlad could do it. It'd be deliciously ironic. > > No no, that doesn't work. Otherwise, Devera and Vlad Norathar can't hook up later on. Majikjon From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Sun Jan 15 17:29:39 2006 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:29:39 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly Message-ID: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> Two questions folks, and apologies if either of them have been recently addressed on the list--it's been way too busy for me to keep up with, and topic drift has made subject lines not much use. On topic first: Am I wrong in thinking that Dragaera, especially pre-interregnum, seems to share a lot of traits with France just before 1789? The thought has passed my mind before, but it particularly struck me recently while reading a book on the Revolution that included a brief description of the situation just beforehand--with wildly varying systems of measurement, laws, internal tariffs and customs, and so on, throughout the kingdom. Less on topic: Any word on Steve's Firefly/Serenity novel lately? I recently read a bit of an interview in which Whedon basically said that he was done with the franchise... but hey, novels could fly, maybe? Surely they don't take as much money to produce as a series or film. Thanks all! Back to your regularly scheduled rampant speculation. :) N. "No man - the point is making a nice comfy home, getting a whole bunch of weed together with your friends, and eating your face off. THAT is hobbit heaven." -- faethe, fark.com From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 20:17:10 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:17:10 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> References: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: Read Leo Tolstoy's book on the Russian Revolution. It is even more similar. On 1/15/06, Noah Stacy wrote: > > Two questions folks, and apologies if either of them have been recently > addressed on the list--it's been way too busy for me to keep up with, > and topic drift has made subject lines not much use. > > On topic first: Am I wrong in thinking that Dragaera, especially > pre-interregnum, seems to share a lot of traits with France just before > 1789? The thought has passed my mind before, but it particularly struck > me recently while reading a book on the Revolution that included a > brief description of the situation just beforehand--with wildly varying > systems of measurement, laws, internal tariffs and customs, and so on, > throughout the kingdom. > > Less on topic: Any word on Steve's Firefly/Serenity novel lately? I > recently read a bit of an interview in which Whedon basically said that > he was done with the franchise... but hey, novels could fly, maybe? > Surely they don't take as much money to produce as a series or film. > > Thanks all! Back to your regularly scheduled rampant speculation. :) > > N. > "No man - the point is making a nice comfy home, getting a whole bunch > of weed together with your friends, and eating your face off. THAT is > hobbit heaven." -- faethe, fark.com > > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 15 21:57:03 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:57:03 EST Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly Message-ID: <140.53734e07.30fc8faf@aol.com> nstacy at cinci.rr.com wrote on 1/15/2006 8:30:19 PM >Less on topic: Any word on Steve's Firefly/Serenity novel lately? I >recently read a bit of an interview in which Whedon basically said that >he was done with the franchise... but hey, novels could fly, maybe? >Surely they don't take as much money to produce as a series or film No word yet on the Firefly/Serenity novel that Steve has written. Joss Whedon is not done with the franchise. At the very least, he is going to be writing more Firefly/Serenity comic books for Dark Horse comics. Joss has said a sequel is all up to the Serenity DVD sales now. The franchise is growing. Now there are Hot Topic store Serenity T-shirts, Dark Horse Serenity Zippo lighters and Serenity "model" ornaments. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 06:27:28 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:27:28 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) References: <143.546bccef.30fc1f9c@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:58 PM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) > Log0n5150 at hotmail.com wrote on 1/9/2006 4:18:54 PM > > >Well, she has a way. That's as good as a plan, isn't it? > > Heh, did you get the DVD yet? My mother in law, bless her heart, bought it for me the day it came out. I believe there have been one or two days since then that myself or my kids have not watched it. Jeff -also has the Fruity Oaty Bar jingle as a cell phone ringtone From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 16 07:59:09 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:59:09 -0800 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <140.53734e07.30fc8faf@aol.com> Message-ID: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 08:21:58 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:21:58 -0700 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly References: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Schultz" To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Dragaera, France, and Firefly > My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, > borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. > It helps, but it is not mandatory. The movie does a good job of standing on it's own. Jeff From usagigoya at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 11:30:57 2006 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:30:57 +0000 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after the end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and numbered (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay store. As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition at $8.00 each plus shipping. >W. Paul Ganley Ebay store listing: > >Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >Copyright 2005 by Steven Brust >published by W. Paul Ganley: Publisher >and the Buffalo Fantasy League > >BFL CHAPBOOK #4 >This is the fourth chapbook produced featuring the guests of honor at >Eeriecon (the 2006 guests of honor at Eeriecon are Harry Turtledove, Tanya >Huff, and Esther Friesner.). Last year's (with Niven, Lumley, and Bishop) >is nearly sold out. They are published in editions of about 150 numbered >copies, with the first 20 or 30 being dedicated for hard cover binding. >They are signed by all three contributors. > >This new chapbook features: >KLAVA WITH HONEY by STEVEN BRUST >WHAT SLEEPS IN THE SHALLOWS BELONGS TO THE DEEP by JULIE CZERNEDA >AN INCIDENT AT THE LUNCHEON OF THE BOATING PARTY, by ALLEN M. STEELE. > >Because Mr. Brust was unable to attend the convention because of illness, >he graciously permitted us to send the copies to him for his signature. >That's why this title is only now being offered on my eBay store. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8341034245QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE-HC-copy_W0QQitemZ8354785208QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >This chapbook also features a wraparound cover and three interior >illustrations by Charles Momberger, the artist who also did the cover for >Chapbook #3. > >If you are interested in one of the $50 hardbound copies, please email me >to that effect and I will put a copy on eBay just for you. Expensive? Yes, >but these are collectors' items, and the markup is actually only a factor >of two, much less than most books in your favorite bookstore. > >By the way, half of any profits on this project will go to the Buffalo >Fantasy League to support next year's EERIECON. > > > >>From: Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A >>Prologue by Steven Brust >>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:32:37 +0000 >> >>On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>> >>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in >>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>> >>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >> >> >>Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) Specifically, >>I'd >>hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. >> >>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed >>/ >>>mentioned on the list before. >> >> >>Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's been a >>long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have been >>mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). >> >>PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>chapbooks >>>with "A Dream of Passion" >>> >> >> >> >> >>>From: "Steve Hubbell" >>>To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >>>Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>> >>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published in >>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>> >>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>> >>>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed >>>/ >>>mentioned on the list before. >>> >>>BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON CHAPBOOK 4. >>>USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First >>>Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J Near >>>Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What Sleeps in >>>the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the >>>Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) >>>USD 50.00 >>>Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 >>>http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml >>> >>>Thanks..... >>> >>>PS >>>I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks >>>with "A Dream of Passion" From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Mon Jan 16 11:53:35 2006 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:53:35 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <95218ce48215fe25a0dcee45d4c4216f@cinci.rr.com> The series is IMO better than the film--more time to really dig into the characters and all that good stuff. The film is worth watching, however, and I do know of at least one person who watched it without knowledge of the series that did enjoy it. On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Scott Schultz wrote: > My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should > beg, > borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. > > > N. "You were Marlon Brando, I was Steve McQueen. You were K.Y. Jelly, I was Vaseline. You were the father of modern medicine, I was Mr. Clean. You where the whore and the beast of Babylon, I was Rin Tin Tin." --Leonard Cohen, "Is This What You Wanted" From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Mon Jan 16 12:00:24 2006 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:00:24 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Dragaera, France, and Firefly Message-ID: <4edf6104a0eab34758936d2e86e210e9@cinci.rr.com> Crap. Forgot to Reply All, as usual. Begin forwarded message: > From: Noah Stacy > Date: January 16, 2006 2:57:02 PM EST > To: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > Subject: Re: Dragaera, France, and Firefly > > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:57 AM, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: > >> >> >> Joss Whedon is not done with the franchise. At the very least, he >> is going to be writing more Firefly/Serenity comic books for Dark >> Horse comics. Joss has said a sequel is all up to the Serenity DVD >> sales >> now. >> >> The franchise is growing. Now there are Hot Topic store Serenity >> T-shirts, >> Dark Horse Serenity Zippo lighters and Serenity "model" ornaments. >> ______________ > > Yay! I really do just want the story to live on in some > fashion--preferably not films, actually, but TV, comix, novels... > whatever works. > > On the other hand, this might mean I have to actually go inside a Hot > Topic. Scary! > > N. > ----- > "One moment, please. Whom did you wish to see?" > Degarmo spun on his heel and looked at me wonderingly. "Did he say > 'whom'?" > "Yeah, but don't hit him," I said. "There is such a word." > Degarmo licked his lips. "I knew there was," he said. "I often > wondered where they kept it." > -- Raymond Chandler, _The Lady in the Lake_ > > N. "When Johnny Cash comes into play, all *weak-ass music*must immediately be discarded. All *pretenders* are permanently tapped. Any player who posesses *Toby Keith* must set themselves on fire." --Cosmic_Music, fark.com From tsarren at alyra.org Mon Jan 16 12:23:09 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:23:09 -0600 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <140.53734e07.30fc8faf@aol.com> <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060116202308.GX1622@Durandal> On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 07:59:09AM -0800, Scott Schultz wrote: > My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, > borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. I recommend it; there is a lot of character development in the series. Some things I cannot mention because of spoilage in the movie have much more impact if you've watched the series first. Kat From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 12:36:39 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:36:39 -0700 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hubbell" To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after the > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and numbered > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay store. > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition at > $8.00 each plus shipping. > 14 left now. Jeff - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 12:43:03 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:43:03 -0700 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff G." To: Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Hubbell" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM > Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after > the > > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to > > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > numbered > > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay > store. > > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition > at > > $8.00 each plus shipping. > > > 14 left now. > > Jeff > - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . Addendum: Apparently this was meant to be, the price with shipping was $9.60, and the amount in my PayPal account was $9.61 Interesting. . . Jeff - is not nearly as creeped out by this as his wife would be. From shawnb at stanford.edu Mon Jan 16 13:33:08 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:33:08 -0800 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060116213330.ED7F1E9425@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jeff G. > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:37 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Hubbell" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM > Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 > seconds after > the > > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers > (and Vlad) to > > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > numbered > > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook > through his ebay > store. > > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the > standard edition > at > > $8.00 each plus shipping. > > > 14 left now. > > Jeff > - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . 10 left now Shawn From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jan 16 14:49:09 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:49:09 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> Jon Lincicum wrote: > While working on the Lyorn Records wikicity, I've compiled a few > relatively minor questions about certain characters that it would help > to have answers to, just for the purposes of clarification. > > Steve, if you've got the time an inclination, it'd be awesome to know > the answers to the following: > > 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) or > "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both > equally valid? > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then Castlerock. > 2. What is the gender of the Chreotha "Deppian" who is referred to by > both genders in /Paths of the Dead/? The character is referred to as > a "she" at the top of the page, then as a "he" a few paragraphs later. > Chapter 14, Page 133, paperback. > > (Or were the Countess and her spouse perhaps both present at this > meeting with K?na?) > They were both present. > 3. Is Grassfog's sister named "Tsira" (as it appears in the text of > /Sethra Lavode/) or "Tsani" (as it appears in the front matter)? I'm > guessing that "Tsani" is a typo, since the name "Tsira" is used > consitantly in the body of the book, but I didn't know if one of these > might be a nickname or something. > "Tsani" is a typo, I think. Or maybe it's a nickname. Yeah, I like that. I planned it all along. > 4. Cwelli and Olani; Savn's parents. Which is which? (I'll completely > understand if you don't care to answer this one, as it seems to be > deliberately vague in the story itself--but it would be an enormous > benefit to the "Dramatis Personae" page on the wikicity to able to to > identify them a little more clearly. > Sorry. From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jan 16 08:39:36 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:39:36 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <4ea701c615fb$68591140$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CBCC46.1CFF@ecity.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > Vlad is not the first Easterner to learn sorcery. He's surely not the first > to learn of Elder Sorcery. If manipulating amorphia is an innate ability of > Easterners, I'd think that would be common knowledge and that the place of > Easterners in Dragaeran society would be quite a bit different than it > currently is. > I didn't mean "sorcery that uses raw amorphia sans Orb", I meant creating raw amorphia with apparently nothing but pure willpower. Given that if Aliera hadn't been around, said raw amorphia would have eaten Vlad since he was too tired to do anything to get out of its way, there's no reason to believe it would become common knowledge - first, most Easterners wouldn't think to try it (which makes it hard to have the necessary willpower behind it), and second, if someone did try it and it worked, very good odds that the amorphia would eat the Easterner who did it, which makes it hard to practice, or convince the friends of the late Easterners to try it themselves. I suppose I'm kinda coming off the idea that Aliera's reciting of the role of the Jenoine in creating Easterners and Dragaerans is colored by her pride that of course, e'Kierons are the best line, Dragons are the best House, and Dragaerans are better than Easterners. If you wonder if maybe the Jenoine did find Easterners interesting enough in themselves to tinker with, as opposed to just being a control so they could see how much better the new and improved Dragons were compared to Easterners, the question becomes what interested them? And the Jenoine seem to be mostly interested in getting control of amorphia. Second, why would they add the ability to create raw amorphia to a line of lab humans, when apparently they can't do it themselves? Admittedly, the Jenoine are exceedingly mysterious, but maybe the reason is that the Easterners had the ability in potentia, and the Jenoine were trying to figure out how it worked so they could do it to themselves (or at least control some tame pets who could do it for them), rather than that they knew how to do it and for some mysterious reason decided to see what it would do if they added the ability to a lab human line, even though they didn't want it for themselves. So, assuming Jenoine aren't idiots, maybe the reason almost all Dragaerans can't create raw amorphia is because they deliberately turned that ability off, while they experimented with various adding various Dragaeran animal genes in to see if they could get a reliably tame 'human', before they unsuppressed the ability. In this theory, possibly the reason only the e'Kieron Dragaerans have the ability is that Verra was only able to sneak one unsuppressed Dragaeran past her Jenoine supervisors. (Or does anyone know of any textevd about whether Kieron was created in a Jenoine lab, as opposed to being born a few generations later? If he wasn't created in a Jenoine lab, the idea that Verra pulled a fast one in her revolt doesn't work so well - after all, why would Kieron and his siblings be the only one in the Tribe of the Dragon who could trace their ancestry to one lab human? Maybe human-Dragaeran crosses can be fertile, but Kieron's mom was the only one perverted enough to try it? Makes for a different interpretation as to why Kieron didn't like Easterners one bit.....VBG) > The thing about reincarnation is that it's a new start in life. Having a > history doesn't change who you are now. Even if you have an especially adept > and powerful mentor like Sethra to lead you in a past-life regression, doing > so doesn't somehow transform you back into that person that you used to be. > It just gives you some insight into your soul's history and maybe some > pointers on what mistakes to avoid this time around. Never mind the legal > morass of souls moving around through different Houses in each life. So Dragaerans don't go in for bull sessions or speculative fiction? Karen From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Jan 16 15:39:36 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:39:36 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust Message-ID: <17338045.1137454777256.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Shawn Burns >Sent: Jan 16, 2006 4:33 PM >To: "'Jeff G.'" , dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >> [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jeff G. >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:37 PM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Steve Hubbell" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM >> Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> >> >> > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> > >> > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and >> > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 >> seconds after >> the >> > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers >> (and Vlad) to >> > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. >> > >> > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and >> numbered >> > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook >> through his ebay >> store. >> > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the >> standard edition >> at >> > $8.00 each plus shipping. >> > >> 14 left now. >> >> Jeff >> - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . > > >10 left now > >Shawn 6... Heh. Mr. Hubbell, you are a bad man. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 15:49:16 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:49:16 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <43CC30FC.5010409@comcast.net> skzb wrote: > Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) >> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both >> equally valid? > > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it > was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to > grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then > Castlerock. Interesting. Thanks for the background. >> 2. What is the gender of the Chreotha "Deppian" who is referred to by >> both genders in /Paths of the Dead/? The character is referred to as >> a "she" at the top of the page, then as a "he" a few paragraphs >> later. Chapter 14, Page 133, paperback. >> (Or were the Countess and her spouse perhaps both present at this >> meeting with K?na?) > > They were both present. Cool. Another character to add to the Dramatis Personae page on the Wiki. (It's up to over 530 names now and counting...) >> 3. Is Grassfog's sister named "Tsira" (as it appears in the text of >> /Sethra Lavode/) or "Tsani" (as it appears in the front matter)? I'm >> guessing that "Tsani" is a typo, since the name "Tsira" is used >> consitantly in the body of the book, but I didn't know if one of >> these might be a nickname or something. >> > "Tsani" is a typo, I think. Or maybe it's a nickname. Yeah, I like > that. I planned it all along. I *knew* it! ;-) >> 4. Cwelli and Olani; Savn's parents. Which is which? (I'll completely >> understand if you don't care to answer this one, as it seems to be >> deliberately vague in the story itself--but it would be an enormous >> benefit to the "Dramatis Personae" page on the wikicity to able to to >> identify them a little more clearly.) >> > Sorry. Totally okay. You can hide or reveal whatever you damn well please, and the rest of us will just be sitting here, hanging on your every word. ;-) If I get too bored I can write my own fan-fic or something. I really appreciate the reply, thanks muchly for sharing. Jon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 16 16:34:14 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:34:14 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CBCC46.1CFF@ecity.net> Message-ID: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > If > you wonder if > maybe the Jenoine did find Easterners interesting enough in themselves > to tinker with, as opposed to just being a control so they > could see how > much better the new and improved Dragons were compared to Easterners, > the question becomes what interested them? I haven't seen any evidence that the Jenoine found Easterners interesting as anything other than breeding stock/control group. Dragaerans have the same "psionic" ability that the Jenoine put into the Easterners. They just don't use it the same way. I generally imagine that it was a requirement as a first step towards the ability to manipulate amorphia. This is also why the Easterners were segregated from the Dragaerans via the Eastern/Western mountains. They wouldn't be any good as a control group otherwise. > In this theory, possibly the reason only the e'Kieron Dragaerans have > the ability is that Verra was only able to sneak one unsuppressed > Dragaeran past her Jenoine supervisors. > I think I posted this speculation already, but my idea on this is that the creation of those Dragaerans who became the e'Kieron line was the goal of the experiment. The success of the breeding program was likely the event that triggered the revolt of Verra and her fellow slaves. I don't believe the others are supressed. They just don't have the "genetic" patterns to support the ability. (When you're talking "genes" that are a part of the soul instead of the body you're talking something other than what we think of as genetics anyway.) > (Or does anyone know of any textevd about whether Kieron was > created in > a Jenoine lab, as opposed to being born a few generations > later? Nope, we don't really know how much time passed between the Revolt and the Migration. Aliera and Vlad (who both have the amorphia summoning ability) represent Kieron's siblings, so Kieron was certainly not the first of the "genetic" line. He was simply the first one famous enough to warrant the rest of the family naming themselves in honor of him. There were probably a few generations of parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc... before him, but again we don't know one way or the other. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 16 16:59:36 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:59:36 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > >I haven't seen any evidence that the Jenoine found Easterners interesting as >anything other than breeding stock/control group. Dragaerans have the same >"psionic" ability that the Jenoine put into the Easterners. They just don't >use it the same way. I generally imagine that it was a requirement as a >first step towards the ability to manipulate amorphia. This is also why the >Easterners were segregated from the Dragaerans via the Eastern/Western >mountains. They wouldn't be any good as a control group otherwise. > > I've always assumed humans were there before Dragaerans were created. How well is this assumption backed up? Jenoine could have just grabbed what they wanted to play with - possibly from Earth, and somehow later some humans arrived or were brought over - possibly by some other agency. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 16:49:07 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:49:07 -0600 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CC3F03.50409@comcast.net> I got mine! :-) Steve Hubbell wrote: > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds > after the end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers > (and Vlad) to the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > numbered (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through > his ebay store. As of today, there are still 18 copies available for > the standard edition at $8.00 each plus shipping. > > >> W. Paul Ganley Ebay store listing: >> >> Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >> Copyright 2005 by Steven Brust >> published by W. Paul Ganley: Publisher >> and the Buffalo Fantasy League >> >> BFL CHAPBOOK #4 >> This is the fourth chapbook produced featuring the guests of honor at >> Eeriecon (the 2006 guests of honor at Eeriecon are Harry Turtledove, >> Tanya Huff, and Esther Friesner.). Last year's (with Niven, Lumley, >> and Bishop) is nearly sold out. They are published in editions of >> about 150 numbered copies, with the first 20 or 30 being dedicated >> for hard cover binding. They are signed by all three contributors. >> >> This new chapbook features: >> KLAVA WITH HONEY by STEVEN BRUST >> WHAT SLEEPS IN THE SHALLOWS BELONGS TO THE DEEP by JULIE CZERNEDA >> AN INCIDENT AT THE LUNCHEON OF THE BOATING PARTY, by ALLEN M. STEELE. >> >> Because Mr. Brust was unable to attend the convention because of >> illness, he graciously permitted us to send the copies to him for his >> signature. That's why this title is only now being offered on my eBay >> store. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8341034245QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE-HC-copy_W0QQitemZ8354785208QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> >> This chapbook also features a wraparound cover and three interior >> illustrations by Charles Momberger, the artist who also did the cover >> for Chapbook #3. >> >> If you are interested in one of the $50 hardbound copies, please >> email me to that effect and I will put a copy on eBay just for you. >> Expensive? Yes, but these are collectors' items, and the markup is >> actually only a factor of two, much less than most books in your >> favorite bookstore. >> >> By the way, half of any profits on this project will go to the >> Buffalo Fantasy League to support next year's EERIECON. >> >> >> >>> From: Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A >>> Prologue by Steven Brust >>> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:32:37 +0000 >>> >>> On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and >>>> published in >>>> the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>> If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>> >>> >>> >>> Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) >>> Specifically, I'd >>> hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. >>> >>> The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was >>> discussed / >>> >>>> mentioned on the list before. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's >>> been a >>> long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have >>> been >>> mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). >>> >>> PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>> chapbooks >>> >>>> with "A Dream of Passion" >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: "Steve Hubbell" >>>> To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >>>> Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>>> >>>> Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and >>>> published in >>>> the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>> If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>>> >>>> The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was >>>> discussed / >>>> mentioned on the list before. >>>> >>>> BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON >>>> CHAPBOOK 4. >>>> USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First >>>> Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J >>>> Near >>>> Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What >>>> Sleeps in >>>> the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the >>>> Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) >>>> USD 50.00 >>>> Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 >>>> http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml >>>> >>>> Thanks..... >>>> >>>> PS >>>> I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>>> chapbooks >>>> with "A Dream of Passion" >>> > > > > From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 18:36:39 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:36:39 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > I've always assumed humans were there before Dragaerans were > created. How well is this assumption backed up? Jenoine could have > just grabbed what they wanted to play with - possibly from Earth, and > somehow later some humans arrived or were brought over - possibly by > some other agency. Sethra says as much in /Issola/. She also mentions that Aliera refuses to believe it. I don't remember where exactly I got the idea, but I seem to remember hearing that Dragaera was originally a Terran colony (of mostly Hungarian ancestry) that were "discovered": by the Jenoine. This ties in nicely with the idea that Tri'nagore has followers on other worlds (presumably Easterners or "humans" as we call them). This is one of the many ways in which the Dragaera books are Science Fiction, as opposed to Fantasy. (But I've expressed recently, that really they "float" between the genres.) Of course, I consider the "Star Wars" movies to be :"fantasy set in outer space", rather than true Sci-Fi, so my opinion may be somewhat unusual. Majikjon From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Jan 16 19:09:44 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:09:44 -0600 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1ca801c61ab5$c9a53cd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CC5FF8.60605@comcast.net> You should *purchase* the series (support good authors everywhere!) and watch the series. The movie stands alone quite nicely without it, but when you watch the series afterwards, you will be sorry you missed the surprises in the order in which they came. Just my $.02. Mia Scott Schultz wrote: >My son rented Serenity the other day. I've been wondering if I should beg, >borrow, or steal a copy of the TV Series DVD set before watching it. > > > > > From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 16 22:35:14 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:35:14 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601162235m90aea3coa4962d448cd75ac6@mail.gmail.com> On 1/16/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Of course, I consider the "Star Wars" movies to be :"fantasy set in > outer space", rather than true Sci-Fi, so my opinion may be somewhat > unusual. I believe this is pretty much the conventional wisdom on Star Wars. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jan 17 04:49:11 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:49:11 -0500 Subject: Dragaera, France, and Firefly In-Reply-To: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> References: <3558d5adbe685b5b4d070ae8a48409ce@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <43CCE7C7.8080604@email.ers.usda.gov> Noah Stacy wrote: > On topic first: Am I wrong in thinking that Dragaera, especially > pre-interregnum, seems to share a lot of traits with France just > before 1789? The thought has passed my mind before, but it > particularly struck me recently while reading a book on the Revolution > that included a brief description of the situation just > beforehand--with wildly varying systems of measurement, laws, internal > tariffs and customs, and so on, throughout the kingdom. > A few, perhaps. I imagine that Dragaera just before the Cycle changes will always look a little like '89 France. But France in '89 was totally disfunctional as a self-governing society; that is the only reason the Revolution succeeded. (The same is true of the Russian Revolution in 1917 someone alluded to.) And the measurements, laws, customs, etc., you refer to had been wildly differing for centuries--basically, for the life of the French state since Charlemagne and earlier. They didn't help matters, but they didn't cause the Revolution. Dragaera is a long way from this amount of social breakdown just before the Interregnum. I'd say the situation is actually a little more analogous to the abortive uprising of Etienne Marcel in 1358-ish or so Paris, after the disaster of Poitiers. In the latter case, the increasing influential bourgeoisie collided with a state temporarily deprived of its head. When it regained one, it rather easily dealt with the merchants. Incidentally, the French Revolution properly begins with the effective coup d'etat of the nobility in '87. they promptly showed that 100 years of emasculation at Versailles had left them completely incapable as a class of running the affairs of anything as large as a small pastry shop. It was this bankruptcy that allowed and encouraged the rest of France to rise up and sweep all that away. Snarkhunter From st.shafer at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 12:16:03 2006 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:16:03 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43CC30FC.5010409@comcast.net> References: <20060112155611.GA5654@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060113213006.GB9661@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20060114162709.GA11915@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <43C98C64.3010302@comcast.net> <43CC22E5.4010201@dreamcafe.com> <43CC30FC.5010409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <77369c850601171216w2662a006vf72f1e17592dcca2@mail.gmail.com> skzb wrote: > > > Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) > >> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both > >> equally valid? > > > > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it > > was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to > > grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then > > Castlerock. > So Castlerock (TPG) came before Castle Rock (TVA)? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 17 12:46:30 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:46:30 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <77369c850601171216w2662a006vf72f1e17592dcca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Stephen Shafer Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/17/06 12:16 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities skzb wrote: >> >> > Jon Lincicum wrote: >> > >> >> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix Guards/) >> >> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both >> >> equally valid? >> > >> > Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of it >> > was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened to >> > grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then >> > Castlerock. >> > >So Castlerock (TPG) came before Castle Rock (TVA)? Well, it's not quite that simple. If Paarfi is relating these stories well after the fact (TPG was "written" in 309 PI) then Paarfi may use the modern spelling in some instances when describing Khaavren, but may spell it "Castle Rock" in dialogue instances where Khaavren, Aerich, Pel, Tazendra, et al. are talking to each other, since that's the spelling they would have used. Further, Brust "The Translator" may simply have been inconsistent in his usages of the spellings that Paarfi used in the original "Dragaeran Text". It's also possible that the Dragaerans themselves still use both spellings on occasion. For the Wiki, I've decided to go with "Castlerock", given Steven's answer, seeing that this is apparently the "fully evolved" version of the name. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 14:44:33 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:44:33 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/16/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > > I've always assumed humans were there before Dragaerans were > > created. > > Sethra says as much in /Issola/. > > She also mentions that Aliera refuses to believe it. > > I don't remember where exactly I got the idea, but I seem to remember > hearing that Dragaera was originally a Terran colony (of mostly > Hungarian ancestry) that were "discovered": by the Jenoine. > I don't think that "of mostly Hungarian ancestry" is a warranted assumption. First of all, while Fenario is Hungarian-ish, it's only been in existence for about 1000 years - a long time for them, but a miniscule fraction of the duration of the Empire. Secondly, given that we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, I don't think we can conclude which of those groups was dominant in numbers 200,000 years ago. Finally, note that "Kieron" is an *Irish* name, which could suggest that the Irish were dominant back then, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it. My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of the Empire's history. I may have to flesh that notion out at Speculation:Easterner. Hm. Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. ObOtherSF: Microcosmic God. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Tue Jan 17 15:05:03 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:05:03 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock wrote: >My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >the Empire's history. Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? >Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of >time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that >the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the >Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. Very good observation. :) From rone at ennui.org Tue Jan 17 15:26:54 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060117232654.90AA9682AC@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, Asian names? I think i missed those. rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 15:47:05 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:47:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <20060117232654.90AA9682AC@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060117232654.90AA9682AC@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43CD81F9.6010307@comcast.net> rone wrote: >Davdi Silverrock writes: > we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, > >Asian names? I think i missed those. > >rone > > Yain Cho Lin, Poet-seer of the East, for example. Also, Soori-Laino-Kri, an Athyra Emperor of the third cycle. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 15:59:13 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:59:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I don't think that "of mostly Hungarian ancestry" is a warranted >assumption. First of all, while Fenario is Hungarian-ish, it's only >been in existence for about 1000 years - a long time for them, but a >miniscule fraction of the duration of the Empire. Secondly, given that >we've heard Irish, Slavic, Italian, & Asian names, I don't think we >can conclude which of those groups was dominant in numbers 200,000 >years ago. Finally, note that "Kieron" is an *Irish* name, which >could suggest that the Irish were dominant back then, but I certainly >wouldn't bet on it. > > Exellent points, all. I was trying to remember what the theory was, and in what context I heard about it, but I'm still drawing a blank on exactly where I got the idea in the first place (it certainly wasn't of my own invention). There had to be some significant Hungarian population to start with, else the culture could not have survived for hundreds of thousands of years--but this in no way means that other cultural influences were not also present (and in possibly greater numbers). The fact that Fenario is among the more well-known Eastern Kingdoms, in fact, in no way guarantees that this culture is even dominant among Easterners in "present-day" Dragaera, since there's no real information on the lands further East from Fenario and Blackchapel. It could be that there's a nation descended from long-haired American hippies from the 1970's who are *the* dominant Eastern nation, they're just so far away from the Empire that we've never heard about them. >My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >the Empire's history. > > Is it part of your theory that Terran colonization of Dragaera is ongoing? >I may have to flesh that notion out at Speculation:Easterner. Hm. > > > Sounds like a great idea! >Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of >time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that >the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the >Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. > >ObOtherSF: Microcosmic God. > Given the way they operate, they probably set up a long-line of attacks, many designed as feints, and have started executing them "recently". Of course, we still don't know about the timing of several of the events that Sethra mentions in /Issola/, the Attack on the Imperial Palace, for example, or the attack on the Greater Sea of Chaos. It could be that these earlier attacks happened much further back in Imperial history. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 16:59:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:59:56 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > I was trying to remember what the theory was, and in what context I > heard about it, but I'm still drawing a blank on exactly where I got the > idea in the first place (it certainly wasn't of my own invention). Probably Verra, in /Phoenix/, when she starts talking about the ones who discovered this world, before the Jenoine. And from the Serioli, and from Sethra, we know that they were what we would call humans. Presumably from our future, since they had stuff on Marxism preserved in their vaults. To the left, perhaps when Verra says "vaults", she actually means "gateways to other worlds" (ie, ours). I need to re-read that section more carefully. Of course, Verra also misstates (or Vlad misstated) the number of years to the Interregnum. Unless more is going on with that, of course. > There had to be some significant Hungarian population to start with, > else the culture could not have survived for hundreds of thousands of > years Not necessarily. In my scenario, an influx of Magyar from earlier in our history (say, around 1000AD our time) to Dragaera at some point in Dragaera's "recent" past (sometime in the 17th Cycle, maybe a few hundred years before Tortaalik's reign began) could result in the Fenarian civilization we see in /Brokedown Palace/ and Vlad's time. Or something like that. Time travel weirds history. > > >My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in > >Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been > >introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of > >the Empire's history. > > > > > Is it part of your theory that Terran colonization of Dragaera is ongoing? No, not colonization. Maybe that first human population, before the Empire, but I'm talking about influxes of people with minimal civilization into already settled lands, thus disrupting them, and preventing the rising of an Easterner civilization with a higher tech level than the Dragaeran Empire. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jan 17 17:54:03 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:54:03 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Not necessarily. In my scenario, an influx of Magyar from earlier in >our history (say, around 1000AD our time) to Dragaera at some point in >Dragaera's "recent" past (sometime in the 17th Cycle, maybe a few >hundred years before Tortaalik's reign began) could result in the >Fenarian civilization we see in /Brokedown Palace/ and Vlad's time. >Or something like that. > >Time travel weirds history. > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? >>Is it part of your theory that Terran colonization of Dragaera is ongoing? >> >> > >No, not colonization. Maybe that first human population, before the >Empire, but I'm talking about influxes of people with minimal >civilization into already settled lands, thus disrupting them, and >preventing the rising of an Easterner civilization with a higher tech >level than the Dragaeran Empire. > Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? Could it be that Dragaera is actually just a planet that is colonized well into our own future, where massive starships armed with directed-energy weapons delivered millions of Terran colonists (armed with tons of high-tech gear) a million years before Vlad's time, where they lived quite happily--excepting only minor run-ins with a few Serioli--until one day the Jenoine show up, start monkeying around with our genes, then, shortly after, the gods create a sea of amorphia, making all our splendid technology aboslutely obsolete? What would this mean to a technological civilization? To be countered with a threat that was completely outside of all known science? How would Sethra Lavode counter, say, the threat of a thousand nuclear-tipped ICBMs? Would she wave Iceflame a couple of times, turn them all into dzur droppings, and fling them back at whomever launched them? Sorry, no real answers in this post. Just lots of questions. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 18:34:24 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:34:24 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? > > Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, > particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Assume there are no funny "technology doesn't work around sorcery" effects, a la Harry Potter. Advantages that are mine: 1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too (spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. 2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the offence. 3. Information. I will probably have better intelligence capabilities than the Dragaerans, better communication systems, and more ability to integrate information into a coherent picture. 4. Lifespan. If the war is sustained enough, I have more capability to absorb and replace losses. I expect this to have more effect on morale than on actual operations, though. My method of waging warfare will probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations in the course of 4-5 *years.* 5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. If I were forced to face Dragaerans on their own terms, their superior size would make it iffy, but I might try body armor. (There have been interesting, nemourlon-like developments in that area recently. Armor which is rigid only when struck.) That's playing to their strengths, though. I may also have superior night vision technology, judging from /Dragon/. Disadvantages: 1. Sorcery is very common among Dragaerans. The key question is exactly *how* good the average Dragaeran can be expected to be. If a typical soldier is good enough to set off the ammunition in a rifle at 300 yards, my options become more limited. Same thing if the typical soldier is good enough to see in the dark as if it were daylight. If he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin and shoot him. 2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. 3. *Powerful* sorcerers exist among the Dragaerans. Then again, even Sethra doesn't seem to be able to make armies fall over dead. This will probably affect my morale more than my operations, although if I make the wrong mistakes it may also make them more costly, e.g. if Sethra drops an amorphia bomb onto my central command post. Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 18:36:55 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:36:55 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601171836r65be4683xf8450fbf29d62648@mail.gmail.com> On 1/17/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Weird typo: "on a good day" Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jan 17 20:12:20 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:12:20 -0500 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E8DC9A8-590A-43DC-9169-0735A15BCCDC@mac.com> On Jan 17, 2006, at 3:46 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Stephen Shafer > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/17/06 12:16 PM > > To > dragaera at dragaera.info > cc > > Subject > Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities > > > > > > > skzb wrote: > >>> >>>> Jon Lincicum wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1. Which is more correct, "Castlerock" (as in /The Phoenix >>>>> Guards/) >>>>> or "Castle Rock" (as in /The Viscount of Adrilankha/)? Or are both >>>>> equally valid? >>>> >>>> Depends on the time. The rock was called Castle Rock on account of > it >>>> was a rock that looked like a castle (duh). The town that happened > to >>>> grow there was called Castle Rock Town, then Castle Rock, then >>>> Castlerock. >>> >> >> So Castlerock (TPG) came before Castle Rock (TVA)? > > Well, it's not quite that simple. > > If Paarfi is relating these stories well after the fact (TPG was > "written" > in 309 PI) then Paarfi may use the modern spelling in some > instances when > describing Khaavren, but may spell it "Castle Rock" in dialogue > instances > where Khaavren, Aerich, Pel, Tazendra, et al. are talking to each > other, > since that's the spelling they would have used. > > Further, Brust "The Translator" may simply have been inconsistent > in his > usages of the spellings that Paarfi used in the original "Dragaeran > Text". > > It's also possible that the Dragaerans themselves still use both > spellings > on occasion. > > For the Wiki, I've decided to go with "Castlerock", given Steven's > answer, > seeing that this is apparently the "fully evolved" version of the > name. > > Majikjon > > I have only one word for you. That word is "ford" Ken From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 23:44:42 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:44:42 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > >Time travel weirds history. > > > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a given. > > Could it be that Dragaera is actually just a planet that is colonized > well into our own future, Another - and I think more likely explanation - is that Dragaera may have first been reached by a colonization ship passing through a necromantic gate the size of a small moon. That is, the planet itself may well be in a universe distinct from the starting point of the original colonists (and for that matter, further in the Dragaeran universe's past). From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 01:01:31 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:01:31 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/17/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? > > > > Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, > > particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? > > Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with > taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Just out of curiosity, what exactly are your purported military objectives? > > Advantages that are mine: > You seem to be making several zillion hugely unwarranted assumptions (much like another recent military operation that could be named). Here are a few: 1) How, exactly, do you plan to convey your troops and materiel to Dragaera? Just wishing them there? If you're using necromantic gates, may I remind you that the current known expert in matters necromantic is on fact on the Dragareans' side? 2) Almost all of your high-tech advantages are heavily reliant on various methods of storing energy in high-density packages or chemicals. May I remind you that Dragaeran sorcery does appear to be capable of causing all high-energy-density packages to rapidly discharge simultaneously, and at a distance? 3) /Dragon/ showed Sethra using certain limited tactics. She was refraining from using certain extreme methods because of mutual convention. If your technical advantages are so great that she cannot defeat them in any other way, I think a real possibility is for her to summon some Jhereg, give them, I dunno, 20,000 gold, and tell them "The enemy command staff. All of them Morganti." Or, as you mentioned, the Chaos option. [snip list] From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 01:41:28 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 02:41:28 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> As far as the "how did we get there?" question, I'm only analyzing attacking a Dragaeran Empire, not the Dragaeran *planet*. I.e. I thought we were discussing a hypothetical high-tech Easterner civilization, and how it would fare against "Elder Sorcery," as Majikjon put it. My thought was that the Easterner civilization has a lot of advantages that are not immediately obvious. You ask what the purported military objectives are. I'm not sure. What are Sethra the Younger's purported military objectives? It appears to involve a lot of killing people and breaking stuff: probably establishing military credibility in the face of aggression by the other side, or else because you want something like the Pepperfields. Destroying the Empire itself is probably outside the scope of our objectives, but it hasn't really been well-defined what we're doing. "Several zillion hugely unwarranted assumptions," eh? Some of those assumptions were warranted by the context of the discussion; others may be genuine oversights, which I would be pleased to have you point out. I noted several advantages on the Easterner side which have nothing to do with storing energy in high-density packages. (Radio, for instance, doesn't require powerful batteries. You saw how useful communication systems were in /Sethra Lavode/.) Furthermore, all we actually know is that spell sticks were abandoned because somebody figured out how to make them all go off at once; whether that is because they were high-density energy packages or because they were delayed spells is unknown. The approaches I outlined were in fact designed to test whether Dragaerans *can* make tanks go "boom" from two miles away by igniting their ammunition. If Dragaerans are in fact capable of catalyzing arbitrary high-energy packages from long distances, the war is lost anyway, because they can just melt your flesh by igniting your *bodily* energy. (BTW, the human body produces more heat than the sun, cubic inch for cubic inch. Of course there's an awful lot of sun.) So basically, we don't know what would happen if Dragaerans went up against high-altitude bombers, and I'd be an idiot not to try it assuming that I've developed those bombers already for use against the USSR-equivalent of the period. (Again, we come back to not knowing exactly the circumstances of the contact.) In response to your #2: I have other high-tech advantages which are reliant on high-density energy storage, but behind the front lines (in my manufacturing base, for instance). If Dragaerans can make them go *kaboom* at an arbitrary distance, yes, my situation becomes a lot uglier. In that case there's not much point in analyzing tactics, because strategically I've lost before the war even begins. I have no way to defend my homeland, period. In response to #3: When discussing Sethra's tactics, I was thinking more particularly of /Sethra Lavode/, where the stakes were a lot higher than in /Dragon/. We still didn't see her destroying armies with sorcery. In fact, her tactics were still very much as in /Dragon/, in spite of the fact that the enemy had no access to sorcery at all. And I suppose I should leave discussion at that. ~Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scs at di.org Wed Jan 18 06:08:01 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:08:01 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060118140801.GD23066@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Jan 17, 2006 at 02:44:33PM -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > . . . . Finally, note that "Kieron" is an *Irish* name, which > could suggest that the Irish were dominant back then, but I certainly > wouldn't bet on it. Never dominant, always popular. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 06:44:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:44:33 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/2006 01:41 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >You ask what the purported military objectives are. I'm not sure. What >are Sethra the Younger's purported military objectives? It appears to >involve a lot of killing people and breaking stuff: probably >establishing military credibility in the face of aggression by the >other side, or else because you want something like the Pepperfields. >Destroying the Empire itself is probably outside the scope of our >objectives, but it hasn't really been well-defined what we're doing. My thoughts were that either: a) Sethra the Younger was invading this hypothetical Easterner Kingdom, and they were trying to defend themselves, or b) The Easterners were coming west into the Empire to "deal with this agressive threat to our sovereignty, once and for all". This second might involve killing or capturing these "tyrannical dictators" who lead the Empire, and replacing them with a Teckla-style republic under a new constitution. (Any of this sound familiar?) >nothing to do with storing energy in high-density packages. (Radio, >for instance, doesn't require powerful batteries. You saw how useful >communication systems were in /Sethra Lavode/.) Furthermore, all we >actually know is that spell sticks were abandoned because somebody >figured out how to make them all go off at once; whether that is >because they were high-density energy packages or because they were >delayed spells is unknown. The approaches I outlined were in fact Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. >designed to test whether Dragaerans *can* make tanks go "boom" from >two miles away by igniting their ammunition. If Dragaerans are in fact >capable of catalyzing arbitrary high-energy packages from long >distances, the war is lost anyway, because they can just melt your >flesh by igniting your *bodily* energy. (BTW, the human body produces >more heat than the sun, cubic inch for cubic inch. Of course there's >an awful lot of sun.) So basically, we don't know what would happen if >Dragaerans went up against high-altitude bombers, and I'd be an idiot >not to try it assuming that I've developed those bombers already for >use against the USSR-equivalent of the period. (Again, we come back to >not knowing exactly the circumstances of the contact.) > >In response to your #2: I have other high-tech advantages which are >reliant on high-density energy storage, but behind the front lines (in >my manufacturing base, for instance). If Dragaerans can make them go >*kaboom* at an arbitrary distance, yes, my situation becomes a lot >uglier. In that case there's not much point in analyzing tactics, >because strategically I've lost before the war even begins. I have no >way to defend my homeland, period. > What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. This is not to say that some scientist, given enough time, might not be able to counter the effects of sorcery. Logically, sorcery that counters a physical effect (like, say, the Jenoine's force-field thingy in /Issola/) might be disruptable by another physical effect (An EM-pulse? Intense heat? Quantum teleportation?). Given that a sorcery seems to be able to operate with impunity against technology, however, while the reverse is not the case, leads me to think that the sorcerers would prevail. (Which may be why the Jenoine want access to it so badly...) >In response to #3: When discussing Sethra's tactics, I was thinking >more particularly of /Sethra Lavode/, where the stakes were a lot >higher than in /Dragon/. We still didn't see her destroying armies >with sorcery. In fact, her tactics were still very much as in >/Dragon/, in spite of the fact that the enemy had no access to sorcery >at all. > >And I suppose I should leave discussion at that. In both cases, we're talking about "limited war", however. The civilian populations are not targetted, and there are other conventions that are being adhered to. It'd be interesting to see what tactics Sethra might use in "total war" where anything goes, so to speak. Majikjon From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed Jan 18 06:45:51 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:45:51 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060118094118.01e73b88@camail.harvard.edu> At 11:44 PM 1/17/2006 -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? > >Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and >future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our >present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a >given. Hmmmm.... I'm not a fan of this theory, but one thought did occur to me while reading it. Why are we assuming that the tales that we're receiving via the black box are contemporary. Perhaps we have it backwards, maybe the Dragaeran stories happened in the distant past and the black box transmitted them forward to us (or stored them for untold amounts of time until it was discovered). The black box is the one thing that I wish hadn't appeared as it causes us to try to make the series fit with our reality "I think too much -- therefore I am mad!" http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 07:09:25 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:09:25 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CE5A25.60507@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most >>instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio >>is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep >>up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. >> >> > > Can they record psionic communications? Being able to record is a big advantage. Can psionic communications be intercepted? I suspect yes. Codes can be used, but cyphers might be harder. >What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to >have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has >not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. > > Remember that before the Orb made sorcery easy, things were very different. Technology is used for shipping even after the Orb. Technology is used for farming. Technology is used for heating and cooking. Technology is used for swords and armor. When did people forget technology, and why? I suspect they didn't. I propose that the people didn't move arrive from a far future Earth - but instead were pulled over from our past. Time/Space works funny with the Jenoine and the gods. Try one experiment with people pulled from afar, maybe discard the remains and try another. >Given that a sorcery seems to be able to operate with impunity against >technology, however, while the reverse is not the case, leads me to think >that the sorcerers would prevail. (Which may be why the Jenoine want >access to it so badly...) > > > Prevail? Why should it be a war between technology and sorcery? If watches aren't needed anymore because the orb can always tell you the time, you don't need to discard the clock that runs your irrigation equipment. If sorcery can beat guns in an open battle, that doesn't mean guns aren't useful in crime. If sorcery can make some weapons more powerful, that doesn't mean you close down your steal production. >In both cases, we're talking about "limited war", however. The civilian >populations are not targetted, and there are other conventions that are >being adhered to. It'd be interesting to see what tactics Sethra might use >in "total war" where anything goes, so to speak. > > > We've seen the total war weapon. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 07:16:21 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:16:21 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20060118094118.01e73b88@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Charles Sumner Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 06:45 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >At 11:44 PM 1/17/2006 -0800, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >>On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? >> >>Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and >>future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our >>present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a >>given. > >Hmmmm.... I'm not a fan of this theory, but one thought did occur to me >while reading it. Why are we assuming that the tales that we're receiving >via the black box are contemporary. Perhaps we have it backwards, maybe >the Dragaeran stories happened in the distant past and the black box >transmitted them forward to us (or stored them for untold amounts of time >until it was discovered). On the one hand, we have Kelly's discovery of the "very old" manuscripts uncovered from a vault that Verra mentions in /Phoenix/ (Apparently written by Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, or similar), which imply that Dragaera is in our future. On the other hand, these events being set in the past is the only real way to reconcile the "current events" of our time with that of Dragaera, unless one resorts to some sort of time-bending, which I'm also not a big fan of. I think Steve does this stuff just to torment us, actually. >The black box is the one thing that I wish hadn't appeared as it causes us >to try to make the series fit with our reality I believe the box was silver, rather than black, but lets not be picky. After all, those are both Dragon colors. ;-) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 07:42:29 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:42:29 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most > instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio > is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep > up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. I'd actually argue that radio combined with modern technology is far superior to psionic communication. For one thing, psionic communication is only possible with those you know well; this results in big, centralized networks that less robust to point-failure. Secondly, radio can be processed by computers instead of human brains. Things like real-time-updated battle maps are only feasible with computer processing; I'm not a general so I don't know exactly how important this is, but it's certainly better than psi. ObSF: read David Drake's stories to get an old soldier's opinion of what a really good AI could do in battle. /Northworld/ is a good one. > What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to > have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has > not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. "Jenoine." Of course you mentioned them, and Verra does call what they do "magic" of a sort, but in that case we haven't seen any examples of technology at all in the stories. Except that we know metal attracts sorcery--but to know the effect of a Faraday cage on sorcery you'd have to test it. I suspect that letting Faraday cages block sorcery would probably not be Cool. On the other hand, if sorcery can affect the physical world, and technology can affect the physical world, and both parties live in the physical world: you can destroy technology by destroying its physical platform, and the same goes for sorcery. The only difference is that technology is something you *have* and not something you *are* (as Bruce Schneier might put it), which means replacement ammunition is a lot easier to produce than replacement sorcerers. This is a plus for technology. I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 08:02:22 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:02:22 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43CE668E.6070500@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >I'd actually argue that radio combined with modern technology is far >superior to psionic communication. For one thing, psionic >communication is only possible with those you know well; this results >in big, centralized networks that less robust to point-failure. >Secondly, radio can be processed by computers instead of human brains. >Things like real-time-updated battle maps are only feasible with >computer processing; I'm not a general so I don't know exactly how >important this is, but it's certainly better than psi. ObSF: read >David Drake's stories to get an old soldier's opinion of what a really >good AI could do in battle. /Northworld/ is a good one. > > I found Drake's RCN series much more fun. And it works better in this discussion because it is a tribute to f Patrick O'Brian's *Aubrey*/Maturin books, only with space ships. One of the two main characters, Adele Mundy, is a spinster librarian who does wonderful things with here computers gives her team a decided edge in their battles. Technologies are tools to an end. The various types of magic we see are various technologies - smart warriors and traders will use whichever tools give them an edge. All of those tools have their advantages. From casey at the-bat.net Wed Jan 18 08:42:58 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:42:58 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00be01c61c4e$40ae4f30$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Jon writ: > I think Steve does this stuff just to torment us, actually. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 08:47:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:47:55 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 07:42 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >I'd actually argue that radio combined with modern technology is far >superior to psionic communication. For one thing, psionic >communication is only possible with those you know well; this results >in big, centralized networks that less robust to point-failure. >Secondly, radio can be processed by computers instead of human brains. >Things like real-time-updated battle maps are only feasible with >computer processing; I'm not a general so I don't know exactly how >important this is, but it's certainly better than psi. ObSF: read >David Drake's stories to get an old soldier's opinion of what a really >good AI could do in battle. /Northworld/ is a good one. Depends on a lot of factors. Security: Can radio signals be intercepted via sorcery? Can psionic communications be intercepted via technology? Reliability/Efficiency: As long as the Empress and the Orb remain unmolested, psionic communication through her is 100% reliable, and since all communication is channeled through one "server", it is centralized, and very efficient. If she goes down, however, all is lost. (I guess you'd call this "All your eggs in one basket" syndrome.) Technology wise, a distributed radio network system is more robust, but less efficient while operational. Ease of use: One on one, psionics wins. In a broadcast-style communique, radio would appear to have the advantage. >> What really leaps out at me in this discussion is that sorcery seems to >> have no problems interacting with the physical world, but technology has >> not been shown to have any influence on sorcerous abilities. >> >"Jenoine." Of course you mentioned them, and Verra does call what they >do "magic" of a sort, but in that case we haven't seen any examples of >technology at all in the stories. Except that we know metal attracts >sorcery--but to know the effect of a Faraday cage on sorcery you'd >have to test it. I suspect that letting Faraday cages block sorcery >would probably not be Cool. The only reason Blackwand and Pathfinder didn't immediately dispatch the Jenoine in /Issola/ is because they had developed their own Orb-equivilent, and were therefore using sorcery to defend themselves, so this doesn't really count as "technology countering sorcery", it was sorcery countering sorcery. It was only at that point that the Jenoine's stun-gun technology became the deciding factor. >On the other hand, if sorcery can affect the physical world, and >technology can affect the physical world, and both parties live in the >physical world: you can destroy technology by destroying its physical >platform, and the same goes for sorcery. The only difference is that >technology is something you *have* and not something you *are* (as >Bruce Schneier might put it), which means replacement ammunition is a >lot easier to produce than replacement sorcerers. This is a plus for >technology. To a point. Depends on how effective the technology is in taking out the people who are trained in sorcery. Gatling gun vs Sethra Lavode, who wins? And the "ammunition" on the side of sorcery in this case is really "amorphia" not "people". You have to have people to fire the weapons. It's just a lot easier to train someone to fire a gun than it is to teach them to use sorcery (apparently). *This* is really the advantage that technology has in this case. At the same time, the Orb itself is really the only "weapon" we're dealing with on the sorcery side. Again, if that were destroyed or lost, then the battle is over. All your eggs in one basket again. >I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but >they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, >judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 18 09:11:29 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:11:29 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1e7401c61c52$39337f10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > >Not necessarily. In my scenario, an influx of Magyar from earlier in > >our history (say, around 1000AD our time) to Dragaera at > some point in > >Dragaera's "recent" past (sometime in the 17th Cycle, maybe a few > >hundred years before Tortaalik's reign began) could result in the > >Fenarian civilization we see in /Brokedown Palace/ and Vlad's time. > >Or something like that. > > > >Time travel weirds history. Aside from the fact that we have no evidence of time travel in the series (I'm not convinced that what Devera does is "time travel" in the normally accepted sense; time is simply meaningless for her much like it's meaningless in general in the Halls of Judgement), we have Morollan's Serioli friend. He refers to the Easterners as "The Old People" who came from "the small invisible lights" (i.e., stars). He (and, generalizing from a single example, the Serioli culture in general) is aware that the Terrans were around for a long time before the Dragaerans and that Terrans came from another world far away in space. He didn't think of them as visitors from another dimension or as demons or time travelers or what have you. The colonists were most likely your standard issue sci-fi Terran colonists, who happened to be of mixed heritage. We know Steve is a friend and admirer of the late Roger Zelazny. It might be a deliberate or maybe subconscious homage to _Lord of Light_ that explains why the Eastern Kingdoms exist as they do. That is, the journey itself involved "cultural devolution" such that the colonies were established in a state something like a Middle Ages/Rennaisance culture. I could certainly imagine the Eastern Kingdoms as the _Lord of Light_ setting after Sam has successfully defeated the Gods and set the colonists to determine their own course. The Serioli, thematically, aren't all that different from the Rakshasa, really. Then the Jenoine appear and cock up the whole works. After the Revolt, the Lords of Judgement interfere with Eastern cultural development in the same way that the "Gods" of _Lord of Light_ interfered with their colonists, insuring that the tech level and cultural level was kept low "for the good of the world". (Consider the turmoil of real world human development over a few thousand years of recorded history, then look at how the Easterners of Dragaera appear to have had a mostly stable and technologically/socially "frozen" level of culture for hundreds of thousands of years.) Where's Mahasamatman when you need him? For that matter, if Steve keeps finding it Cool to write about Vlad, will _The Final Contract_ ultimately find Vlad playing Sam's role as the guy who liberates the world from the yoke of the Gods so that it can determine its own destiny? Maybe not, given that Paarfi is writing in a time that should be long after Vlad's death by old age and the Empire appears to be ticking along as it always has. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 18 09:17:07 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:17:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601180141s4ab5c152ve31be4c493e6269b@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a shark vs tiger problem to me, but note that a spacefaring civ is likely to have nasty stuff like tailored viruses and intelligent Von Neumann machines (and intelligentish soldier beetles or ants for that matter) and gray nanogoo, stuff the Empire wouldn't be able to cope with. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 09:24:12 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:24:12 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <1e7401c61c52$39337f10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1e7401c61c52$39337f10$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43CE79BC.3030501@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >Where's Mahasamatman when you need him? For that matter, if Steve keeps >finding it Cool to write about Vlad, will _The Final Contract_ ultimately >find Vlad playing Sam's role as the guy who liberates the world from the >yoke of the Gods so that it can determine its own destiny? > >Maybe not, given that Paarfi is writing in a time that should be long after >Vlad's death by old age and the Empire appears to be ticking along as it >always has. > > > Great things can happen outside of Paarfi's "world". From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jan 18 09:26:46 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:26:46 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1e8d01c61c54$5bd03480$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Taking on Jenoine with only > >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of > >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. > > Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) > Considering that House Dzur is noted as rivaling House Athyra in wizard production, I'd imagine there must be quite a few of them. I think it may be a mistake to think of your typical Dzur hero as a tank who just wades in and wallops everything in sight. In fact, if Tazendra is at all typical, quite the opposite is true. Dzur live for the battle, but they develop as many skills as they require in order to fight the battle and win. Sure, every Dzur hopes for a glorious death facing odds of 100:1, but winning against those odds is a whole lot more glory. Tazendra had no compunction about using every advantage or trick she could. She just didn't expend a whole lot of thought and energy on tactical planning. That's why you keep a Tiassa around. *heh* In any case, this suggests that being a skilled sorceror is more likely the rule in House Dzur than the exception. I imagine that there have been a lot of armies that lost to a company or two of Dzur because they fell prey to the delusion that a Dzur is all brawn and no brains. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 10:26:21 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:26:21 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601180742k2487e774j8ed50824a3fd8504@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601181026j6cce668uf2896e6734704fca@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Security: Can radio signals be intercepted via sorcery? Can psionic > communications be intercepted via technology? Intercepted *and* decrypted. We're not dealing with WWII technology here. > Reliability/Efficiency: As long as the Empress and the Orb remain > unmolested, psionic communication through her is 100% reliable, and since > all communication is channeled through one "server", it is centralized, > and very efficient. If she goes down, however, all is lost. (I guess you'd > call this "All your eggs in one basket" syndrome.) Technology wise, a > distributed radio network system is more robust, but less efficient while > operational. A distributed radio network is far more efficient than communicating through the Empress, even assuming she's willing to act as a relay. The Empress will have a very low throughput; it's far more likely you'd be using point-to-point psionic communication as we typically see in the /Vlad/ novels. > Ease of use: One on one, psionics wins. In a broadcast-style communique, > radio would appear to have the advantage. Nolo contendere. > The only reason Blackwand and Pathfinder didn't immediately dispatch the > Jenoine in /Issola/ is because they had developed their own > Orb-equivilent, and were therefore using sorcery to defend themselves, so > this doesn't really count as "technology countering sorcery", it was > sorcery countering sorcery. It was only at that point that the Jenoine's > stun-gun technology became the deciding factor. I was actually thinking of the battle at the end, before the Jenoine re-established their link to the amorphia. I recall that it was stated in the text that the Jenoine wouldn't be able to use sorcery before recovering the link, which means the initial defense was conducted using other means. It didn't seem to make things any easier on the Lords of Judgment. > To a point. Depends on how effective the technology is in taking out the > people who are trained in sorcery. > > Gatling gun vs Sethra Lavode, who wins? Yes, but that's a separate point. (I'd add: "Project Thor vs. Sethra Lavode, who wins?") > And the "ammunition" on the side of sorcery in this case is really > "amorphia" not "people". You have to have people to fire the weapons. It's > just a lot easier to train someone to fire a gun than it is to teach them > to use sorcery (apparently). *This* is really the advantage that > technology has in this case. Nolo contendere. > >I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but > >they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, > >judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only > >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of > >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. > > Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) That was my point. Even trained sorcerers seem to be far less competent with sorcery than Jenoine are. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 10:53:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:53:52 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <9E8DC9A8-590A-43DC-9169-0735A15BCCDC@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/17/06 08:12 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities >On Jan 17, 2006, at 3:46 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> For the Wiki, I've decided to go with "Castlerock", given Steven's >> answer, >> seeing that this is apparently the "fully evolved" version of the >> name. > >I have only one word for you. > >That word is "ford" Meaning ford as in "Ben", ford as in "Gazla", ford as in "Ara", ford as in "Furd" I take it? Well, yes. I wasn't really trying to imply that "Castlerock" wouldn't evolve into something else later on, just that this was the form it had evolved to up to this point. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 11:13:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:13:22 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601181026j6cce668uf2896e6734704fca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson 01/18/06 10:26 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc SKZB List , dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) >Intercepted *and* decrypted. We're not dealing with WWII technology here. Even WWII had encryption (The Enigma Machine was a type of encryption, for example). It was just encryption that was breakable once computers were invented to decipher the keys. Can sorcery be used to decipher complicated mathematical problems? I'll be a Hawk could tell you. "P" vs "NP". Who wins? ;-) Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your enemies' strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. >> The only reason Blackwand and Pathfinder didn't immediately dispatch the >> Jenoine in /Issola/ is because they had developed their own >> Orb-equivilent, and were therefore using sorcery to defend themselves, so >> this doesn't really count as "technology countering sorcery", it was >> sorcery countering sorcery. It was only at that point that the Jenoine's >> stun-gun technology became the deciding factor. > >I was actually thinking of the battle at the end, before the Jenoine >re-established their link to the amorphia. I recall that it was stated >in the text that the Jenoine wouldn't be able to use sorcery before >recovering the link, which means the initial defense was conducted >using other means. It didn't seem to make things any easier on the >Lords of Judgment. They had lost their link to the Lesser Sea of Amorphia. They had *not* lost their link to their own chunk of trellanstone, or to all the amorphia they had already "gathered" into their own "place". Hence, this was still sorcery they were using for defense, even at this point in the story. That could be an important point to bear in mind for future stories, the Jenoine now have some finite amount of amorphia in their possesion, and a trellanstone to channel it through. This obviously makes Godslayer a much more important tool to have for the defense of Dragaera, considering it's the only thing we've seen that can effectively fight a Jenoine armed with sorcery. Vlad may have to "correct" the oversight that left the Jenoine in control of their amorphia at some point. >Yes, but that's a separate point. (I'd add: "Project Thor vs. Sethra >Lavode, who wins?") Now *that's* a story I'd like to see. ;-) >> >I'm not sure why the Jenoine want access to amorphia so badly, but >> >they're obviously much more capable with it than Dragaerans are, >> >judging from events in /Issola/. Taking on Jenoine with only >> >technology would make me much more nervous than taking on a bunch of >> >Teckla conscripts with a few Dzur mixed in. >> >> Well, how many of the Dzur are sorcerers? ;-) > >That was my point. Even trained sorcerers seem to be far less >competent with sorcery than Jenoine are. Well, in their brute-force use of sorcery the Jenoine are at least very powerful. They do tend to come across as especially unsubtle (i.e. stupid) users of sorcery. I'm not sure how well this impression is justified, however. Majikjon From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 18 11:16:57 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:16:57 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> Maximilian Wilson wrote On 01/17/06 18:34,: > Disadvantages: > 1. Sorcery is very common among Dragaerans. The key question is > exactly *how* good the average Dragaeran can be expected to be. If a > typical soldier is good enough to set off the ammunition in a rifle at > 300 yards, my options become more limited. Same thing if the typical > soldier is good enough to see in the dark as if it were daylight. If > he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin > and shoot him. > 2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport > armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter > from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > 3. *Powerful* sorcerers exist among the Dragaerans. Then again, even > Sethra doesn't seem to be able to make armies fall over dead. This > will probably affect my morale more than my operations, although if I > make the wrong mistakes it may also make them more costly, e.g. if > Sethra drops an amorphia bomb onto my central command post. I think you might also add the advantage necromancy can add to the Dragaeran forces. If all your soldiers are getting up after being killed and turning their AK47s on your own army.... Well, I'd not wish to have to report *that* to a superior officer. :) Chris From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 11:25:15 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:25:15 -0700 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CE961B.3080609@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>I have only one word for you. >> >>That word is "ford" > >Meaning ford as in "Ben", ford as in "Gazla", ford as in "Ara", ford as in >"Furd" I take it? >Well, yes. > > Or maybe Fordfordfordfordfordfordford (I forget how many fords in that town's name). From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 18 11:32:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:32:03 -0800 Subject: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities In-Reply-To: <43CE961B.3080609@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 11:25 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: A few questions for Steve re: Character names and identities Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>>I have only one word for you. >>> >>>That word is "ford" >> >>Meaning ford as in "Ben", ford as in "Gazla", ford as in "Ara", ford as in >>"Furd" I take it? >>Well, yes. >> >> >Or maybe Fordfordfordfordfordfordford (I forget how many fords in that >town's name). Bengloarafurd Ford. Ben, Gazla, Ara, Furd, Ford I count five. Of course, some day someone will build a bridge there, and they'll have to rename the town. ;-) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 18 11:35:10 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:35:10 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CE986E.8000706@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Intercepted *and* decrypted. We're not dealing with WWII technology here. > >Even WWII had encryption (The Enigma Machine was a type of encryption, for >example). It was just encryption that was breakable once computers were >invented to decipher the keys. Can sorcery be used to decipher complicated >mathematical problems? I'll be a Hawk could tell you. > >"P" vs "NP". Who wins? ;-) > >Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your enemies' >strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. > > Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for instance. One way of using many tools could be illustrated in an example of protecting a prize. The first thing to do is make sure all the physical doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the sorcerous doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the watchmen work as designed. Include some cobwebs at strategic spots to discover if someone has entered the prize location. If you can add psionic protections (maybe dread), add them. If you can add witchcraft, add it. The technology that the other guy overlooks is to your advantage. The technology you overlook is to the other guy's advantage. >Well, in their brute-force use of sorcery the Jenoine are at least very >powerful. They do tend to come across as especially unsubtle (i.e. stupid) >users of sorcery. I'm not sure how well this impression is justified, >however. > > > For one thing, they don't think the way we do. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jan 18 12:14:39 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:14:39 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601181214x70cf056bmeab9d208a0931eec@mail.gmail.com> On 1/18/06, Chris Olson wrote: > I think you might also add the advantage necromancy can add to the > Dragaeran forces. If all your soldiers are getting up after being > killed and turning their AK47s on your own army.... > > Well, I'd not wish to have to report *that* to a superior officer. Oh, that's a good point. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 18 12:22:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:22:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CE9429.1090403@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > If all your soldiers are getting up after being killed Just a plug for Joe Dante's "Homecoming" from Showtime's Masters of Horror series. For political junkies at least it's a hoot and a half. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Jan 18 21:33:38 2006 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:33:38 +0000 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: W. Paul Ganley has placed some more copies of the BFL CHAPBOOK #4 up for sale in his ebay store (16 more copies available of the $8.00 edition, as of this posting). http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8374875073QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >From: "Steve Hubbell" >To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >Subject: re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:14:51 +0000 > >Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > >Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and >refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after the >end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) to >the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > >The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and numbered >(limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay >store. >As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard edition >at >$8.00 each plus shipping. > > >>W. Paul Ganley Ebay store listing: >> >>Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>Copyright 2005 by Steven Brust >>published by W. Paul Ganley: Publisher >>and the Buffalo Fantasy League >> >>BFL CHAPBOOK #4 >>This is the fourth chapbook produced featuring the guests of honor at >>Eeriecon (the 2006 guests of honor at Eeriecon are Harry Turtledove, Tanya >>Huff, and Esther Friesner.). Last year's (with Niven, Lumley, and Bishop) >>is nearly sold out. They are published in editions of about 150 numbered >>copies, with the first 20 or 30 being dedicated for hard cover binding. >>They are signed by all three contributors. >> >>This new chapbook features: >>KLAVA WITH HONEY by STEVEN BRUST >>WHAT SLEEPS IN THE SHALLOWS BELONGS TO THE DEEP by JULIE CZERNEDA >>AN INCIDENT AT THE LUNCHEON OF THE BOATING PARTY, by ALLEN M. STEELE. >> >>Because Mr. Brust was unable to attend the convention because of illness, >>he graciously permitted us to send the copies to him for his signature. >>That's why this title is only now being offered on my eBay store. >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE_W0QQitemZ8341034245QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/BFL-Chapbook-4-BRUST-CZERNEDA-STEELE-HC-copy_W0QQitemZ8354785208QQcategoryZ377QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>This chapbook also features a wraparound cover and three interior >>illustrations by Charles Momberger, the artist who also did the cover for >>Chapbook #3. >> >>If you are interested in one of the $50 hardbound copies, please email me >>to that effect and I will put a copy on eBay just for you. Expensive? Yes, >>but these are collectors' items, and the markup is actually only a factor >>of two, much less than most books in your favorite bookstore. >> >>By the way, half of any profits on this project will go to the Buffalo >>Fantasy League to support next year's EERIECON. >> >> >> >>>From: Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A >>>Prologue by Steven Brust >>>Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:32:37 +0000 >>> >>>On 1/5/06, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>>> >>>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published >>>>in >>>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>> >>> >>>Given the title, I'd guess neither, but a prologue. ;-) Specifically, >>>I'd >>>hypothesize that it was the prologue to _Dzur_. >>> >>>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was discussed >>>/ >>>>mentioned on the list before. >>> >>> >>>Nothing that Gmail wants to tell me about when I searched, but it's been >>>a >>>long time since I've been caught up with this list, so it might have been >>>mentioned without mentioning the title (which is what I searched for). >>> >>>PS I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention >>>chapbooks >>>>with "A Dream of Passion" >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>From: "Steve Hubbell" >>>>To: usagigoya at hotmail.com >>>>Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust >>>> >>>>Has anyone read this short piece written by Steven Brust and published >>>>in >>>>the 2005 Eerie Con chapbook? >>>> >>>>If so, is it a short story or a poem? >>>> >>>>The title sounds faintly familiar but I can't be sure if it was >>>>discussed / >>>>mentioned on the list before. >>>> >>>>BRUST, STEVEN; JULIE E. CZERNEDA, ALLEN M. STEELE, EERIECON CHAPBOOK 4. >>>>USA The Buffalo Fantasy League & W. Paul Ganley, Publisher 2005 First >>>>Edition Hard Cover Size: 8vo - over 7?" - 9?" tall Fine/Near Fine/J Near >>>>Fine 40 pp. Klava With Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust / What Sleeps >>>>in >>>>the Shadows by Julie E. Czerneda / An Incident at the Luncheon of the >>>>Boating Party by Allen Steele. SIGNED. Signed: I Signed by Author(s) >>>>USD 50.00 >>>>Offered by: Mythos Books - Book number: 87933 >>>>http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/myt/87933.shtml >>>> >>>>Thanks..... >>>> >>>>PS >>>>I thought Steven Brust had given up contributing to convention chapbooks >>>>with "A Dream of Passion" > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 08:19:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:19:43 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <43CE986E.8000706@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/18/06 11:35 AM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your enemies' >>strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. >> > >Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are >protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers >sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. Well, that was really the point I was asking about. Is there really any way for technology protect against clairvoyance? >Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. >Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for >instance. Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to be in anyone's brain to find it out. >One way of using many tools could be illustrated in an example of >protecting a prize. The first thing to do is make sure all the >physical doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the >sorcerous doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the >watchmen work as designed. Include some cobwebs at strategic spots to >discover if someone has entered the prize location. If you can add >psionic protections (maybe dread), add them. If you can add witchcraft, >add it. But can a purely technological civilization block psionics? Or sorcery? If not, then information gathered in this manner is *not* safe from protection. Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to stop him? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 09:05:12 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:05:12 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFC6C8.9040903@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are >>protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers >>sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. > >Well, that was really the point I was asking about. Is there really any >way for technology protect against clairvoyance? > > I don't know. I expect at a certain level, yes. Everything follows the laws of the universe. But see below. >>Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. >>Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for >>instance. > >Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" >so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to >be in anyone's brain to find it out. > > A bunch of bits requires translation. A brain might be able to pick up a bunch of noise from a similar brain and match it with how it works and come up with a picture. I don't see that a brain could pick up a bunch of bits from a digital camera though, even if the bandwidth of the brain was sufficient. The problem occurs in reverse as well - but with enough research, that would be solvable. The digital transmission from a camera can easily use a different format, encryption, varying speeds and such to make its data unrecognizable without having a similar codec on the other side. >But can a purely technological civilization block psionics? Or sorcery? > > Assuming technology excludes psionics and sorcery, eventually. But again, it shouldn't be an either/or situation. We already know that sorcery can block sorcery. >If not, then information gathered in this manner is *not* safe from >protection. > >Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe >the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to >stop him? > > > If magic is real, then magic *is* a purely science-based technology. But for the answer you're seeking: Eventually. The laws of the universe aren't capricious. Think Clarke's Third Law, with a melding of our technology and magic. There is a tradition that has cold iron interfering with magic. I expect some magic could be bothered more easily than others - Steve hasn't told us that he has received any scientific documents about how magic actually works, but it appears to be reliable and repeatable. That's science and technology. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 09:18:06 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:18:06 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <43CE986E.8000706@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601190918g50da97b5of910e807d28b4065@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe > the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to > stop him? I suspect you couldn't. However, you could mitigate the damage by: 1. Talking in Navajo. (j/k) Though seriously, techno-babble might be almost as good. 2. Concealing and/or changing the meeting location frequently, even if it's just an anonymous tent. 3. Holding discussion in terms of coded resources. "Operation Alpha-Deadstrike is proceeding." This matters less if the clairvoyant can snoop written or electronic materials, but it would be effective against Morrolan's window. 4. Planning for it. This situation is really no different from having an unknown spy in your midst. It's bad in some ways--you have no guarantee of confidentiality--but not in other ways--you can still trust your command staff. Anyone who knows anything about these situations is welcome to speak up. I suspect you'd do a lot of decentralizing command so that there aren't any grand strategy meetings to snoop on, only local command posts. You might also make a practice of giving orders only once, verbally, and then letting your subordinates have autonomy in carrying them out. (This practice would probably be abandoned as soon as it was found to be ineffective vs. psychics. Then again, psychics do have to be present in order to mind-ream someone.) You might also make a practice of not doing anything tricky, period. If you're launching a straightforward frontal assault, who cares if anyone knows about it? However, I suspect that encrypted radio channels are not chiefly designed to prevent eavesdropping in this sense. IMO, this discussion is a bit of a side-issue. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 09:26:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:26:05 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <43CFC6C8.9040903@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 09:05 AM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" >>so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to >>be in anyone's brain to find it out. >> > >A bunch of bits requires translation. A brain might be able to pick up >a bunch of noise from a similar brain and match it with how it works and >come up with a picture. I don't see that a brain could pick up a >bunch of bits from a digital camera though, even if the bandwidth of the >brain was sufficient. > >The problem occurs in reverse as well - but with enough research, that >would be solvable. > >The digital transmission from a camera can easily use a different >format, encryption, varying speeds and such to make its data >unrecognizable without having a similar codec on the other side. Well, granted using clairvoyance to determine what bits are set what way in the memory banks of a spy satellite isn't so useful. But how about just using clairvoynace to look at the same things that the satellite took pictures of? The trick is all in how the magical abilities are applied. >If magic is real, then magic *is* a purely science-based technology. Well, perhaps. Depends on how you define "magic" I suppose. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Any sufficiently explained magic is indistinguishable from technology. >But for the answer you're seeking: Eventually. The laws of the >universe aren't capricious. Think Clarke's Third Law, with a melding >of our technology and magic. There is a tradition that has cold iron >interfering with magic. I expect some magic could be bothered more >easily than others - Steve hasn't told us that he has received any >scientific documents about how magic actually works, but it appears to >be reliable and repeatable. That's science and technology. If magic is a "suspension of natural laws" or even "a substitution of new natural laws", then is it really correct to say that it is science? Different magic-users may suspend natural laws in different ways at different times. What does this do to repeatability? Mightn't this introduce a certain "capriciousness" where natural laws are concerned? Or is the fact that the magician is deliberately suspending or changing the rules in a specific way make it more like science? Are any "natural laws" really "natural" when you start talking about alternate plains of existance where different laws apply? What about the Paths of the Dead, for example? This place is, in Paarfi's terms, created from the dreams of the gods". Is that not by definition capricious and changable? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 09:37:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:37:57 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFCE75.1060108@brazee.net> When I do a Reply to All, included is a CC to Dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info. What is Dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info? Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>The digital transmission from a camera can easily use a different >>format, encryption, varying speeds and such to make its data >>unrecognizable without having a similar codec on the other side. > >Well, granted using clairvoyance to determine what bits are set what way >in the memory banks of a spy satellite isn't so useful. > >But how about just using clairvoynace to look at the same things that the >satellite took pictures of? > > Sure you can have a clairvoyant doing the work of the camera and the software that analyze what it sees to tell someone something interesting happened. That is if you don't have something more productive and cost-effective for him to do. >If magic is a "suspension of natural laws" or even "a substitution of new >natural laws", then is it really correct to say that it is science? > > That's because magic doesn't exist in the world where this definition is used. The Supernatural is beyond nature. So we use it to describe stuff we fantasize about. In this fantasy magic exists, it's part of nature, and can be worked. It is no longer supernatural. >Different magic-users may suspend natural laws in different ways at >different times. > They use natural laws in different ways. Just like we do with technology. >What does this do to repeatability? Mightn't this >introduce a certain "capriciousness" where natural laws are concerned? Or >is the fact that the magician is deliberately suspending or changing the >rules in a specific way make it more like science? Are any "natural laws" >really "natural" when you start talking about alternate plains of >existance where different laws apply? What about the Paths of the Dead, >for example? This place is, in Paarfi's terms, created from the dreams of >the gods". Is that not by definition capricious and changable? > > > Just because sorcery and psionics and witchcraft exist as part of nature doesn't mean that there can't still exist mystics. Paarfi's mystic explanations are like most mystic explanations - not to be depended upon. Even with these technologies which are supernatural to us - there can still be boundaries of stuff that can't exist within the laws of their universe - but can nevertheless be imagined. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 10:27:57 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:27:57 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Howard Brazee" Cc: ; "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:19 AM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb > Howard Brazee > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/18/06 11:35 AM > > To > > cc > SKZB List > Subject > Re: High Tech vs. the Orb (some Issola spoilage) > > > > > > > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>Of course, a simple clairvoyance spell used to listen in to your > enemies' > >>strategy meetings makes radio encryption basically worthless, anyway. > >> > > > >Separate issues. I'm sure the enemies' strategy meetings are > >protected. I'm less confident that all of the communications officers > >sending the encrypted orders by whichever means are protected. > > Well, that was really the point I was asking about. Is there really any > way for technology protect against clairvoyance? > > >Some radio intelligence can be done without human intervention. > >Clairvoyance might find it hard to read the minds of spy satellites, for > >instance. > > Well, since the way I think of clairvoyance isn't just as "mind-reading" > so much as "remote fact-finding", the information wouldn't really have to > be in anyone's brain to find it out. > > >One way of using many tools could be illustrated in an example of > >protecting a prize. The first thing to do is make sure all the > >physical doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the > >sorcerous doors and locks work as designed. Then make sure the > >watchmen work as designed. Include some cobwebs at strategic spots to > >discover if someone has entered the prize location. If you can add > >psionic protections (maybe dread), add them. If you can add witchcraft, > >add it. > > But can a purely technological civilization block psionics? Or sorcery? > > If not, then information gathered in this manner is *not* safe from > protection. > > Say, for example, that Morrolan simply used his secret window to observe > the enemy meetings. How would a purely science-based technology be able to > stop him? > > Majikjon > > Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, and superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear to her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen before, I would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns come in handy. Jeff - pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 10:46:49 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:46:49 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFDE99.4070806@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As >always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, and >superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear to >her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in >command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire >responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen before, I >would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. > >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns >come in handy. > > > Dragaera has become rich and powerful since the Orb. It appears that its research community has been active. It even has people studying alternative stuff including witchcraft and sorcery - and we see only a small subset of its population. (The surfs don't count much - but picture the scientific & technological growth of the 18th and 19th centuries). On the other hand, they depend quite a bit on the orb - although they have practice fighting without much of its capabilities available. While their behavior doesn't seem as patient as we might expect, it is possible that their research could be slowed down by their long lives. We get the self-centered impression that Dragaera is large and Human land is small. I think of Japanese Shoguns who wanted to conquer China and thus the world when I think of Sethra the Younger's desire to conquer the Humans. It would be interesting to see Admiral Sperry's Great White Fleet, if it weren't for the fact the the Jenoine change the historical analogs. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 10:49:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:49:18 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFDF2E.6050804@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns >come in handy. > >Jeff > > They have found clay sling stones with stamped curses and/or prayers on them in Carthage. Early signs of a convergence between magic and technology. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 10:51:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:51:55 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 10:27 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As >always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, and >superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear to >her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in >command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire >responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen before, I >would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. Hmmm. I'd almost forgotten about the Phoenix Stones. (From Greenaere, not Elde, but the point is a good one.) Yes, this factor would make the odds favor the high-tech side pretty dramatically, if Gold and Black Phoenix stones were available to them in large quantaties. I'd venture to say this factor would make control of Greenaere a critical factor in deciding the outcome of a conflict. Do Phoenix stones block Necromancy? Would they interfere with Morrolan's Window, for example? If so, is it the Gold ones or the Black ones that do it? (On a side note, this could be why Morrolan and Aliera didn't simply use his window to reach Vlad on Greenaere during /Phoenix/, something I'd always kinda wondered about.) >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? If >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against bullets/artillery >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns >come in handy. The "Javelins" that Vlad used did indeed have metal heads (Vlad & co. would sharpen them up before the attacks)... And presumably so did the "smaller javelins" (Which I always thought was just another name for "arrows", since that term doesn't seem to be one that Dragaerans use). >- pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. Bullets made of Gold Phoenix Stone, perhaps? ;-) Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:26:11 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:26:11 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jeff G." Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb > "Jeff G." > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/19/06 10:27 AM > > To > > cc > > Subject > Re: High Tech vs. the Orb > > > > > >Maybe they can build a SCIF with stones imported from Elde Island? As > >always, the keys to victory are sound strategic goals, adaptive tactics, > and > >superior logistics. We know that Sethra Lavode keeps these near and dear > to > >her heart, but she is not the current Warlord, and is not likely to be in > >command at first. And that first battle would be decisive. If the Empire > >responded to an invasion from the East with the scorn we have seen > before, I > >would expect the initial engagements to be a slaughter. > > Hmmm. I'd almost forgotten about the Phoenix Stones. (From Greenaere, not > Elde, but the point is a good one.) > > Yes, this factor would make the odds favor the high-tech side pretty > dramatically, if Gold and Black Phoenix stones were available to them in > large quantaties. I'd venture to say this factor would make control of > Greenaere a critical factor in deciding the outcome of a conflict. > > Do Phoenix stones block Necromancy? Would they interfere with Morrolan's > Window, for example? If so, is it the Gold ones or the Black ones that do > it? > > (On a side note, this could be why Morrolan and Aliera didn't simply use > his window to reach Vlad on Greenaere during /Phoenix/, something I'd > always kinda wondered about.) > > >Also, did the javelin shooters and arrows in "Dragon" have metal heads? > If > >so, then I can't see sorcery being very effective against > bullets/artillery > >besides destroying ammunition before it's fired. But that's when railguns > >come in handy. > > The "Javelins" that Vlad used did indeed have metal heads (Vlad & co. > would sharpen them up before the attacks)... And presumably so did the > "smaller javelins" (Which I always thought was just another name for > "arrows", since that term doesn't seem to be one that Dragaerans use). > > >- pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. > > Bullets made of Gold Phoenix Stone, perhaps? ;-) > > Majikjon > Waste of resources. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a .50 caliber slug through the chest will cramp his style . . . along with the next 3 wizards or so in line with the shot." Jeff -Now thinking of grinding up Phoenix stone into dust to be dispersed aerially onto the battlefield. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 11:32:06 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:32:06 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 11:26 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >Waste of resources. "No matter how subtle the wizard, a .50 caliber slug >through the chest will cramp his style . . . along with the next 3 wizards >or so in line with the shot." Well, just to get through any self-protection force-fields the sorcerers might have. Otherwise the bullet doesn't go through the first one. >-Now thinking of grinding up Phoenix stone into dust to be dispersed >aerially onto the battlefield. Funny. I had exactly the same thought. Only I was thinking of a "Powder Bomb" that would be dropped onto a major city (say Adrilankha) in preparation for dropping a nuclear warhead. (Again, so no kind of city-wide sorcerous force-field could be used to protect the city.) One bomb dropped on Adrilankha. Orb is destroyed. War is over. Majikjon From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Thu Jan 19 11:34:07 2006 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:34:07 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb Message-ID: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192A55B32D@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jeff G. > Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:26 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb ... > Jeff > > -Now thinking of grinding up Phoenix stone into dust to be dispersed > aerially onto the battlefield. ... One of the few bits of Blade III (and perhaps elsewhere) I liked was when he (they) dispersed colloidal silver throughout the building ventilation system to incapacitate the vampires. Alternate planes and gates can certainly lead to assorted Thor-like applications (push rocks through gates where they exit one mile above the enemy castle or troops). Ciao, Andrew ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:36:15 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:36:15 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Jeff G." > >- pondering the use of snipers against sorcerers in the battlefield. > > Bullets made of Gold Phoenix Stone, perhaps? ;-) I was about to say: "We do have evidence, from Grita's final battle, that magic can block physical attacks, force-field style." But was that really magic? It happened after Grita contacted the Jenoine, who at the time presumably had no access to amorphia and sorcery. (My impression of events in /Issola/ is that the Jenoine had only recently gained access, and that taking out GW wielders was the first thing they did.) If that assumption is correct, it was either done with some other form of Jenoine magic or with super-science technology--it isn't clear which one the Jenoine use, or even whether there is any difference, as Howard Brazee has been pointing out. On the other hand, it could be that sorcery can do exactly the same thing, and the Jenoine was needed only as an alternate power source given lack of access to the Orb. On the gripping hand, Grita was trained in Elder Sorcery, and she *still* needed Jenoine help to pull the force field off; this suggests to me that sniper rounds are likely to be quite effective against the average sorcerer. Even Aliera gets cut up in normal hand-to-hand combat. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:40:32 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:40:32 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191140g721b1ddej9aff16a8e69db42f@mail.gmail.com> One final thought: who here is confident that Paarfi's account of the battle is accurate? It's quite possible that he had two facts: a Jenoine was at the battle, and *spoiler* and *spoiler* both *spoiler* there. The rest could be a dramatic ending to his novel, back-fitted onto those facts. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 11:40:44 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:40:44 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> Martin Wohlert wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >> Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >> introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >> the Empire's history. > > > Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? > Yeah. He never really finished it, did he? Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 11:46:13 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:46:13 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CFEC85.8050302@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> Speaking of time-fluidity, and noting the difference in rates of >> time-flow between Dragaera and Jenoinesburg, it also occurs to me that >> the Jenoine attacks on the Empire are, from the point of view of the >> Jenoine, occurring in rapid succession. >> >> > Given the way they operate, they probably set up a long-line of > attacks, many designed as feints, and have started executing them > "recently". Of course, we still don't know about the timing of several > of the events that Sethra mentions in /Issola/, the Attack on the > Imperial Palace, for example, or the attack on the Greater Sea of > Chaos. It could be that these earlier attacks happened much further > back in Imperial history. > Given the way they operate, these may not really be what you call attacks. More like: you discover the mice have escaped the lab, & while you are trying to round them up, you also notice they've unlocked the baboon, skunk, poisonous reptile, & elephant cages, & topped it all off by lighting a flame near a hissing container of highly flammable stuff. You've got the Jenoine equivalent of your hands full. It is some time before it dawns on you that these may in fact be hyperintelligent pandimensional mice :-) Snarkhunter From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 11:47:22 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:47:22 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191145y3137a252ye7e1a972378e7657@mail.gmail.com> References: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191145y3137a252ye7e1a972378e7657@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191147j2be620delc544729b78fe421f@mail.gmail.com> [Forwarded to list] On 1/19/06, Ken Koester wrote: > Martin Wohlert wrote: > > Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? > > > Yeah. He never really finished it, did he? http://www.jerrypournelle.com/progress.html MAMELUKES: Latest Janissaries Novel. I have 65,000 words done of about 80,000. There are many new characters, as well as all -- ALL -- of the old ones. A lot happens. A LOT. Some happens off stage in the High Commission: I have no viewpoint characters who can see that, but the effects will be felt both on Earth and Tran. I've been working pretty steadily on this. Watch out for Ghurkas... Alas, as of Fall 2004 I haven't finished this. It is about next on my schedule, after Burning Tower. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 11:53:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:53:19 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191136u22ead56fu45a1ac20c45ae449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 11:36 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >effective against the average sorcerer. Even Aliera gets cut up in >normal hand-to-hand combat. Probably against the "average" sorcerer. I was more thinking of the Sorceress in Green at the end of /Yendi/. She had some kind of force-field up that Vlad disabled with Spellbreaker, before he could threaten her with the morganti knife. A sniper might have trouble taking her out. (She is a pretty exceptional sorceress, granted.) But a Gold Phoenix Stone bullet might just do it. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 12:01:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:01:03 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191140g721b1ddej9aff16a8e69db42f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 11:40 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb >One final thought: who here is confident that Paarfi's account of the >battle is accurate? It's quite possible that he had two facts: a >Jenoine was at the battle, and *spoiler* and *spoiler* both *spoiler* >there. The rest could be a dramatic ending to his novel, back-fitted >onto those facts. Don't forget that *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler* and *spoiler* also *spoiler* there. ;-) We don't really know how much of Paarfi's account is accurate and how much is kethna offal. That is rather deliberate, I'm sure. I don't think we can even count on the fact that a Jenoine was there. But hey, until we have an alternate version, I'm preparred to take it as the "best available version of events". Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 12:03:10 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:03:10 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > >>Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? >> >>Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, >>particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? >> >> > >Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with >taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Assume there are no >funny "technology doesn't work around sorcery" effects, a la Harry >Potter. > >Advantages that are mine: >1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in >the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too >(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. > > Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an army, no matter what you equip them with. >2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and >I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this >means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the >offence. > > Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way to make up the difference in the lands you seize, & a pretty fierce mountain chain at your back. You'll need massive amounts of supplies, with no easy way to get them to the front in the necessary quantities. Bear in mind that the highest sustained rate of advance for an Earth army was that of Genghis/Subotai & the Mongols, back in the 13th century: 20 miles a day, for months. Your advance will top out at about 250 miles from the nearest railhead or sea port. And your advance will probably stick to easy terrain & bad roads. The Chinese showed what happened to armies who do that in Korea in '50. >4. My method of waging warfare will >probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran >perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about >once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations >in the course of 4-5 *years.* > > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to strike your army as being fast & brutal? >5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* >that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range >tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; >high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of >Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy >of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers >firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. > > Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and certainly wouldn't be long-range. >Disadvantages: >1. . . .If >he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin >and shoot him. > > More likely, he makes it rain for days on end along your line of march. Cf the Wehrmacht's experiences with Ukrainian mud in '41. >2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport >armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter >from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > > Which makes you more vulnerable. >Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the >past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High >technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. > > > > Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 19 12:18:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, setting off the motion-sensor arrays, and being blasted to little bits? or: inhaling the camps' tailored viruses and keeling over? or: there are no camps to teleport into since my troops don't sleep because of designed evolution, or are anyway machines. Carry on. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 12:26:56 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:26:56 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43CFF610.2020206@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >>Advantages that are mine: >>1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in >>the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too >>(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. >> >> > >Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an >army, no matter what you equip them with. > > > But different technologies take different amounts of training. The Romans dominated for a while because the best way of fighting at the time required significant training. The British Navy required lots of practice - which the Brits were willing to pay for. But Napoleon's citizen army didn't require as much and his advantage didn't last long. >>2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and >>I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this >>means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the >>offence. >> >> > >Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way >to make up the difference in the lands you seize, & a pretty fierce >mountain chain at your back. You'll need massive amounts of supplies, >with no easy way to get them to the front in the necessary quantities. >Bear in mind that the highest sustained rate of advance for an Earth >army was that of Genghis/Subotai & the Mongols, back in the 13th >century: 20 miles a day, for months. Your advance will top out at >about 250 miles from the nearest railhead or sea port. And your advance >will probably stick to easy terrain & bad roads. The Chinese showed >what happened to armies who do that in Korea in '50. > > > Only if you need to conquer the lands you pass through. If you are after a killing blow (the Orb), you can skip much of the above. Some primitive societies did their wars far away from home, bringing home loot - their objectives weren't to conquer. >>4. My method of waging warfare will >>probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran >>perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about >>once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations >>in the course of 4-5 *years.* >> >> > >Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a >dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to >strike your army as being fast & brutal? > > > Obviously some intelligence is needed. Conquerers have to know about teleportation and how and why it is and isn't used in Dragaeran warfare. >>5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* >>that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range >>tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; >>high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of >>Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy >>of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers >>firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. >> >> > >Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can >hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior >opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what >you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and >certainly wouldn't be long-range. > > > A different definition is tank warfare by dropping tanks into battle on the other side of the world. >>Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the >>past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High >>technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. >> >> >> >> > > >Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. >Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. > >Snarkhunter > > But sorcery has fought sorcery. Adding tech to the mix wouldn't make this knowledge useless. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 12:27:38 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:27:38 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > >On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > >>Would a higher tech level really cause the Empire any problem? > >> > >>Would anthrax, atomic weapons, Sarin gas, Tanks, high explosives, > >>particle weapons, etc be very effective against a little Elder Sorcery? > >> > >> > > > >Hmmm. If I were in control of a 21st-century military, tasked with > >taking on the Dragaeran Empress, what would I do? Assume there are no > >funny "technology doesn't work around sorcery" effects, a la Harry > >Potter. > > > >Advantages that are mine: > >1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in > >the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too > >(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. > > > > > > Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an > army, no matter what you equip them with. > > >2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and > >I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this > >means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the > >offence. > > > > > > Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way > to make up the difference in the lands you seize, & a pretty fierce > mountain chain at your back. You'll need massive amounts of supplies, > with no easy way to get them to the front in the necessary quantities. > Bear in mind that the highest sustained rate of advance for an Earth > army was that of Genghis/Subotai & the Mongols, back in the 13th > century: 20 miles a day, for months. Your advance will top out at > about 250 miles from the nearest railhead or sea port. And your advance > will probably stick to easy terrain & bad roads. The Chinese showed > what happened to armies who do that in Korea in '50. > > >4. My method of waging warfare will > >probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran > >perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about > >once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations > >in the course of 4-5 *years.* > > > > > > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a > dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to > strike your army as being fast & brutal? > > >5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* > >that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range > >tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; > >high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of > >Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy > >of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers > >firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. > > > > > > Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can > hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior > opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what > you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and > certainly wouldn't be long-range. > > >Disadvantages: > >1. . . .If > >he can pretty much keep the rain off himself on a good idea, I grin > >and shoot him. > > > > > > More likely, he makes it rain for days on end along your line of march. > Cf the Wehrmacht's experiences with Ukrainian mud in '41. > > >2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport > >armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter > >from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > > > > > > Which makes you more vulnerable. > > >Keep in mind that Dragaerans have fought armies of Easterners in the > >past, and it was less than a cake-walk, judging by TPG. High > >technology could make things a lot harder on the Empire. > > > > > > > > > > > Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. > Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. > > Snarkhunter > > Sure it has. Look at the campaigns against Africa and India. The locals thought that their swords/spears and bows were high tech. "Look at these fools! All dressed in red coats, how do they hunt like that?" "No bows either, and it looks like most of them only have some sort of odd stick." "I wonder why they are lining up like that? That is no way for a man to fight." "Ah, the one on the horse has a sword, but why is he waving it around?" Boom. There have been so many comparisons between magic and high technology that I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to pick the one they like best. Jeff - wonders what effect the haze over the empire would have on laser designators. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 19 12:27:53 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:27:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > We don't really know how much of Paarfi's account is accurate and how much > is kethna offal. That is rather deliberate, I'm sure. Note that under the assumption that the Paarfiad is vaguely credible, proponents and opponents of Paarfian verity have to cope with the apparent fact that his writings have been published (not censored) and have been read by participants in the events in question without him being dispatched. (There's some wiggle room because a noble might feel above retaliation or correction of the record, or might think that engaging in the argument would be counterproductive.) What this means about Morrolan's true character, or Khaavren's, or Pel's, is quite interesting, I suspect. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 12:33:20 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:33:20 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > > > >>Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, >> >> >setting off the motion-sensor arrays, and being blasted to little >bits? > > > Along with your troops & all your gear. >or: > >inhaling the camps' tailored viruses and keeling over? > > > No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to control. >or: > >there are no camps to teleport into since my troops don't sleep >because of designed evolution, or are anyway machines. > > > Don't have to be asleep to be hit from the rear or from surprise. Sleepless humans are probably beyond the reach of 21st century techonology in any case, if possible at all. Of course, if you want to posit Culture-class technology, complete with knife missles, effector weapons, gridfire, & nano-assassins. . . . Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 12:42:12 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:42:12 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43CFF9A4.6050501@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff G. wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Koester" > > >>Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. >>Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. >> >>Snarkhunter >> >> >> >Sure it has. Look at the campaigns against Africa and India. The locals >thought that their swords/spears and bows were high tech. > > > Neither side was high tech or sorcery in those set-to's. And the Brits got their lunches handed to them in Afghanistan, even so. >- wonders what effect the haze over the empire would have on laser >designators. > > Little to none, if used below haze level. Snarkhunter From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jan 19 12:51:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:51:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > > > > > > > >>Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, > >> > >setting off the motion-sensor arrays, and being blasted to little > >bits? > > > Along with your troops & all your gear. Laser batteries? computer-driven rifles? Anyway, a teleporting enemy would just lob in a bomb. > >inhaling the camps' tailored viruses and keeling over? > > No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came > up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet I take it you're talking present-day tech. I don't know if sorcery would be trivially useful against a sufficiently cleverly designed virus - presumably the spell would have to inspect all the victim's DNA for a recognized sequence. > Of course, if you want to posit Culture-class technology, complete with > knife missles, effector weapons, gridfire, & nano-assassins. . . . Well, I earlier claimed that a space-faring civilization is likely to have military tech beyond what's in our R&D labs. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 13:11:53 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:11:53 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D00099.9060302@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Ken Koester wrote: > > >> No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came >> >>up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet >> >> > >I take it you're talking present-day tech. > > A century isn't likely to change this very much. And the original posit ws 21st century tech, IIRC. >I don't know if sorcery would be trivially useful against a sufficiently >cleverly designed virus - presumably the spell would have to inspect all >the victim's DNA for a recognized sequence. > > Maybe it just jacks up the body's natural immune system sky high. We do know that plagues were effective during the Interregnum, & by inference, that they were not a problem when the Orb was active. Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 13:12:54 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:12:54 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D000D6.9010404@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came >up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some >pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to >control. > > Terrorism can use biowar. Gas was effective in WWI. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:14:28 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:14:28 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Ken Koester wrote: > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > >Advantages that are mine: > >1. Mass production. If I can make an effective weapon, I can put it in > >the hands of more troops she has sorcerers. Sorcerers can do this too > >(spell sticks), but probably not with anything fancy. > Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an > army, no matter what you equip them with. There's still a quantitative difference, probably nearly a qualitative difference. It appears to take a *long* time to train a good sorcerer, whereas you can make a decent soldier in less than a year. More to the point, if e.g. motion-sensor guns a la /Aliens/ were found to be useful, I could quickly deploy them in large numbers. It most certainly is a relevant factor. > >2. Mobility. I'll have a much better logistic train than she will, and > >I can move my troops from place to place more quickly. At minimum this > >means I'll be able to achive higher force concentration when on the > >offence. > Uh, no you won't. You'll have a nightmarish logistic train, with no way I think Howard made a good point about conquering vs. invading. Logistics are way outside my area of expertise, while you appear to know something about the subject, so to an extent I'm willing to defer. On the other hand, it's hard for me to see how you can possibly argue that technology doesn't help me logistically more than sorcery will help her; your argument implicitly centers on the difficulty of attacking across the Eastern mountains, which, though important strategically, has nothing to do with the relative advantages of high tech vs. sorcery. You may be pointing out the difficulty of subjugating the Dragaeran Empire, but we might just as well be talking about defeating a Dragaeran army of conquest. > >4. Lifespan. If the war is sustained enough, I have more capability to > >absorb and replace losses. I expect this to have more effect on morale > >than on actual operations, though. My method of waging warfare will > >probably seem very fast and brutal from the Dragaeran > >perspective--early on, Vlad mentions a fellow Jhereg who "works" about > >once a decade, and yet Vlad carried out forty-something assassinations > >in the course of 4-5 *years.* > Oh? How about random hit squads teleporting into your camps, offing a > dozen or so people, then disappearing? Don't think that's going to > strike your army as being fast & brutal? I restored the text you snipped, which should answer your question. > >5. High tech. My huge technological base ought to give me *something* > >that's usable, even against sorcery. I'd probably try out long-range > >tank warfare, see if it worked; long-range artillery, same way; > >high-altitude bombing. This is mostly about testing the limits of > >Dragaeran sorcery. I'd probably also try the straightforward strategy > >of ambushing a Dragaeran army on march with a company of soldiers > >firing automatic rifles and launching RPGs. > > Dunno what you mean by "long-range tank warfare." Tanks now days can > hit out to 4000 meters or so with pretty good accuracy against inferior > opponents (& in favorable terrain which permits said LOS); is that what > you mean? RPGs wouldn't be much use against foot soldiers, though, and > certainly wouldn't be long-range. That is precisely what I mean by "long-range tank warfare." However, I also realized that my focus on long-range warfare is a bit gun-shy; thus, a "straightforward" ambush is not intended to be long-range, merely conventional. Perhaps regular grenade launchers would be better than RPGs; I know little about military equipment except that RPGs seem to have a reputation for being robust and simple to operate, but perhaps RPG rounds are closer to bazooka rounds than to regular grenades. > >Disadvantages: > More likely, he makes it rain for days on end along your line of march. > Cf the Wehrmacht's experiences with Ukrainian mud in '41. > >2. Teleportation magics. Dragaerans aren't able to mass-teleport > >armies (see /Dragon/), but I can't effectively defend my perimeter > >from individual infiltrators. I may have to disperse my forces widely. > Which makes you more vulnerable. Which is why it's a disadvantage. Any constraint he can force onto me is an advantage to him. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 19 13:17:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:17:56 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D000D6.9010404@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 01:12 PM To cc SKZB List Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >Ken Koester wrote: > >>No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came >>up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some >>pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to >>control. >> >> >Terrorism can use biowar. Proof? (And don't just say "G.W. told me so.") >Gas was effective in WWI. Not really. The very *first* gas attack *would* have been effective, but the Germans failed to press the advantage and allowed the Brits to close up their lines again. Shortly after that, gas masks became standard equipment and it never again proved to be a major factor in any engagement. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:19:36 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:19:36 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF790.9080802@email.ers.usda.gov> <43D000D6.9010404@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:12 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Ken Koester wrote: > > >No virus could work that fast. And sorcery could cure anything you came > >up with. No one has managed to make a living at biowar yet, for some > >pretty basic reasons: it's pretty ineffective, slow, and very hard to > >control. > > > > > Terrorism can use biowar. Gas was effective in WWI. WWI and WWII (and most other conflicts) used chemical weapons, not biological. Jeff - hates MOPP Level 4. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 13:31:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:31:29 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <43CFF9A4.6050501@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Jeff G. wrote: > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Ken Koester" > > > > > >>Sure. But high tech hasn't *ever* fought sorcery, so far as we know. > >>Learning curve for new battle experiences is ferocious. > >> > >>Snarkhunter > >> > >> > >> > >Sure it has. Look at the campaigns against Africa and India. The locals > >thought that their swords/spears and bows were high tech. > > > > > > > > Neither side was high tech or sorcery in those set-to's. And the Brits > got their lunches handed to them in Afghanistan, even so. > But to the locals, those rifles and cannon were magic. > >- wonders what effect the haze over the empire would have on laser > >designators. > > > > > > Little to none, if used below haze level. > > Snarkhunter > > But thats how I would prefer to use them. Have a couple of attack aircraft orbit at 20k or so, and have several teams of Tac P's designating targets. Alternate between cluster and fuel/air munitions, that should make life interesting for anyone trying sorcerous defense. Jeff - Is not particularly worried about teleporting hit squads From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 13:50:19 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:50:19 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 1/19/06, Ken Koester wrote: > > >>Less than relevant. It takes quite a while to train a mob to be an >>army, no matter what you equip them with. >> >> > >There's still a quantitative difference, probably nearly a qualitative >difference. It appears to take a *long* time to train a good sorcerer, >whereas you can make a decent soldier in less than a year. More to the >point, if e.g. motion-sensor guns a la /Aliens/ were found to be >useful, I could quickly deploy them in large numbers. It most >certainly is a relevant factor. > > > You can get a greenie in less than a year, but he won't know how to move in combat, what is dangerous and what is not, how to keep himself alive and healthy in the field, how not to kill his comrades & a host of other things. And such a soldier would be more equivalent to the average Dragon, anyhow. If you want to compare to an army of sorcerors, then factor in the 20 or so years of education necessary to become the average high tech whiz. As for rapid deployment, check the German armaments production figures for, say, '39-41. It is instructive how long it took them to deploy things in the middle of a war. Heck, compare with how long it has taken the US to deploy Strykers, armored Hummers & trucks, & effective body armor for the troops in Iraq. >I think Howard made a good point about conquering vs. invading. >Logistics are way outside my area of expertise, while you appear to >know something about the subject, so to an extent I'm willing to >defer. > Doesn't really matter; your armies aren't fighting in a vacuum. They have a range. They have needs. High tech armies need enormous amounts of things, just to stay in one place, much less move around. And when they do move around, all that stuff has to move with them. I cut off the flow of juice to your electronics, it just becomes a box somewhat less protective than the equivalent mass of iron. Heck, it takes 3 or 4 or 5--maybe 10-- of your high tech guys totin' beans, just to get one guy to blast out with a directed energy weapon. Invading, defending, conquering--doesn't much matter; unless you suddenly repeal the law of inertia or tap into a *concentrated* energy-everywhere source, you've got an enormous tail to take care of, even if all you do is repel an invader. Even if you repel one at your border--borders are not the factor, distance from railhead/port is. A Dragaeran army has little of that to contend with. Your best counter isn't high tech at all, but to burn all the fields in its path. >I know little about military equipment except that RPGs >seem to have a reputation for being robust and simple to operate, but >perhaps RPG rounds are closer to bazooka rounds than to regular >grenades. > > > They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the best antipersonnel weapons. Snarkhunter From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:09:34 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:09:34 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov><2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > > >I know little about military equipment except that RPGs > >seem to have a reputation for being robust and simple to operate, but > >perhaps RPG rounds are closer to bazooka rounds than to regular > >grenades. > > > > > > > They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're > meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the > best antipersonnel weapons. > > Snarkhunter > > Change that to light armor and unarmored vehicles. Most of the simple to operate, man portable weapons won't do much more than inform a tank driver of your exact location. And as they would be of limited effectiveness in this sort of campaign anyway, I think we can disregard them. A Mark 19, on the other hand, would do nicely. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19.htm Jeff - Rule #37: There is no overkill. There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload" From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jan 19 14:27:03 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:27:03 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov><2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D01237.3010307@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff G. wrote: >>They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're >>meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the >>best antipersonnel weapons. >> >>Snarkhunter >> >> >> >> >Change that to light armor and unarmored vehicles. Most of the simple to >operate, man portable weapons won't do much more than inform a tank driver >of your exact location. And as they would be of limited effectiveness in >this sort of campaign anyway, I think we can disregard them. A Mark 19, on >the other hand, would do nicely. > > > Yes, I was writing hastily & meant "armor" in the widest sense, but not really thinking of MBTs. Mark 19 sounds good, not terribly portable though? I wonder if there is a sorcerous shaped charge spell? Snarkhunter From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:32:41 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:32:41 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov><2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> <43D01237.3010307@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:27 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Jeff G. wrote: > > >>They are bazooka (well, panzerfaust) descendents, definitely. They're > >>meant to tackle armor & to a lesser extent, structures. They aren't the > >>best antipersonnel weapons. > >> > >>Snarkhunter > >> > >> > >> > >> > >Change that to light armor and unarmored vehicles. Most of the simple to > >operate, man portable weapons won't do much more than inform a tank driver > >of your exact location. And as they would be of limited effectiveness in > >this sort of campaign anyway, I think we can disregard them. A Mark 19, on > >the other hand, would do nicely. > > > > > > > Yes, I was writing hastily & meant "armor" in the widest sense, but not > really thinking of MBTs. Mark 19 sounds good, not terribly portable though? > > I wonder if there is a sorcerous shaped charge spell? > > Snarkhunter > Depends on who you ask. Most of the Marines I know would happily drag one of those monsters anywhere, as long as they were allowed to shoot it at something when they got there. Jeff -prefers to be dropped of by a vehicle to walking to a fight. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:37:32 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:37:32 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601191140g721b1ddej9aff16a8e69db42f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191437s2f870ac8x445420efc3a14a92@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Don't forget that *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler*, *spoiler* > and *spoiler* also *spoiler* there. ;-) Well yes, but I admit I never paid much attention to them. [looks embarrassed] Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 14:42:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:42:05 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191442j4b5865f3ye281050931da41fe@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Philip Hart wrote: > What this means about Morrolan's true character, or Khaavren's, or Pel's, > is quite interesting, I suspect. Morrolan, for one, is perfectly willing to tolerate rumors about his dispatching entire villages of hapless Easterners on a whim. W/rt Khaavren and Pel, I don't know if you're insinuating that they have similar attitudes, or that the portrayals are accurate enough that they can't object. Or perhaps you're merely noting it as "interesting" without passing judgment yet? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jan 19 15:29:33 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:29:33 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <43D020DD.8040701@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >Doesn't really matter; your armies aren't fighting in a vacuum. They >have a range. They have needs. High tech armies need enormous amounts >of things, just to stay in one place, much less move around. And when >they do move around, all that stuff has to move with them. I cut off >the flow of juice to your electronics, it just becomes a box somewhat >less protective than the equivalent mass of iron. Heck, it takes 3 or 4 >or 5--maybe 10-- of your high tech guys totin' beans, just to get one >guy to blast out with a directed energy weapon. Invading, defending, >conquering--doesn't much matter; unless you suddenly repeal the law of >inertia or tap into a *concentrated* energy-everywhere source, you've >got an enormous tail to take care of, even if all you do is repel an >invader. Even if you repel one at your border--borders are not the >factor, distance from railhead/port is. A Dragaeran army has little of >that to contend with. Your best counter isn't high tech at all, but to >burn all the fields in its path. > > One place where logistics makes a huge difference is in whether you are doing the invading or the defending. In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to disrupt sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 16:17:07 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:17:07 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D020DD.8040701@brazee.net> References: <2ddbda5f0601171834l1c9c7dedmf16677e5c64eddc7@mail.gmail.com> <43CFF07E.9030009@email.ers.usda.gov> <2ddbda5f0601191314j3d24d64ese7d220733db18f3e@mail.gmail.com> <43D0099B.1040108@email.ers.usda.gov> <43D020DD.8040701@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601191617k3ae5f713w38b4c4868f98751e@mail.gmail.com> On 1/19/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to disrupt > sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - > to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. Bear in mind that Dragaeran armies as seen in the Khaavren Romances and in /Dragon/ are not sorcerous armies, but large conventional armies with sorcerous support. They have fewer supply needs (less "tail" and more "tooth" than a high-tech army), but also less ability to transport goods. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jan 19 18:44:23 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:44:23 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <43CFEB3C.1080108@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060119214257.02596e08@cox.net> At 02:40 PM 1/19/2006, Ken Koester wrote: >Martin Wohlert wrote: > >>Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >>>My own pararectal speculation is that time is sufficiently fluid in >>>Dragaera that successive waves of different Earth-peoples have been >>>introduced into Dragaera's East at different times in the course of >>>the Empire's history. >> >> >>Anyone read _Janissaries_ by Jerry Pournelle? >Yeah. He never really finished it, did he? I understand the next book is actually being written. Not that anything by Pournelle is ever produced quickly, of course; it may be a couple of years or more before it's finally done. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From casey at the-bat.net Fri Jan 20 01:40:15 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 04:40:15 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c61da5$84c57420$5800a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet > and refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 > seconds after the end of Issola and almost immediately > introduces the readers (and Vlad) to the Lavode in training > which Sethra mentioned in Issola. OK, I'm sure it will have been edited before it hits the bookstore shelves, but Klava with Honey is quite an appetizing teaser. It's clearly the prologue to Dzur. Which was well in hand by last April when the chapbook was put together. I have only one question. Will we ever learn why the skies are lit up on Ascension Day? I needed a pick-me-up. It's been a long year. Yes, I said year. The legislators of the state of Georgia have much to answer for. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 10:19:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:19:19 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191617k3ae5f713w38b4c4868f98751e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/19/06 04:17 PM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >On 1/19/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to disrupt >> sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - >> to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. > >Bear in mind that Dragaeran armies as seen in the Khaavren Romances >and in /Dragon/ are not sorcerous armies, but large conventional >armies with sorcerous support. They have fewer supply needs (less >"tail" and more "tooth" than a high-tech army), but also less ability >to transport goods. Just what makes a "Sorcerous Army"? As we've seen in the books, most Dragaeran all armies are "convential" with a Sorcerer's Corps to supplement the Teckla/Dragon/Dzur infantry units. Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional forces disappear entirely. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 10:26:55 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:26:55 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D12B6F.9080001@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Just what makes a "Sorcerous Army"? > >As we've seen in the books, most Dragaeran all armies are "convential" >with a Sorcerer's Corps to supplement the Teckla/Dragon/Dzur infantry >units. > >Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and >more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional >forces disappear entirely. > >Majikjon > > I suppose this argument is like comparing using an army with artillery. The Air Force didn't make the Army obsolete. It changed Naval battles significantly. And now it changes logistics a lot. But somebody has to take the objective. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 20 10:30:20 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: Message-ID: > Subject > Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > > > > > >On 1/19/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> In this issue another question comes up - how difficult is it to > disrupt > >> sorcerous supply lines? It appears that this gets done all the time - > >> to a degree that would be hard to match with mechanical supply lines. > > > >Bear in mind that Dragaeran armies as seen in the Khaavren Romances > >and in /Dragon/ are not sorcerous armies, but large conventional > >armies with sorcerous support. They have fewer supply needs (less > >"tail" and more "tooth" than a high-tech army), but also less ability > >to transport goods. > > Just what makes a "Sorcerous Army"? > > As we've seen in the books, most Dragaeran all armies are "convential" > with a Sorcerer's Corps to supplement the Teckla/Dragon/Dzur infantry > units. > > Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and > more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional > forces disappear entirely. > > Majikjon > > > Heh. That is an argument that is as old as military technology. Change "Sorcerer" to "Stealth" (I hate that word) and the reference to aircraft, for example. Jeff -It's "low observable", damnit!!! From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 10:43:46 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:43:46 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/20/06 10:30 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >> >> Perhaps during an Athyra reign, the Sorcerer's Corps would be larger and >> more sophisticated, but I doubt there is ever a time when conventional >> forces disappear entirely. >> >Heh. That is an argument that is as old as military technology. Change >"Sorcerer" to "Stealth" (I hate that word) and the reference to aircraft, >for example. Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it away from me." Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jan 20 11:00:48 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:48 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D13360.6040004@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that >stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it >away from me." > >Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. > > > And *that* argument has been made for Verra knows how long as well. >An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce >forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to >my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, >but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground >forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces >takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. > > > > Not quite, although I'm sure it appeared that way at the time. What actually happened is that the Serbian army had dispersed--more or less successfully--to avoid attrition & destruction from the air during the bombing campaign. NATO made it clear that ground troops would be unlikely to follow on any time soon, so this was a viable strategy to use while playing for time & fraying the very thin sensibilities of the Western world; no penalty would befall a Serbian army thus spread out. But when the Albanian guerilla forces--recovered from previous rough handling at the hands of the Serbs--began to move out and engage the Serbs & when they began to coordinate with NATO air activity, it became immediately clear to the Serbs that this was a losing strategy, and one that would lose in days, not months & perhaps not even weeks. So they sued for peace. I agree, the turnabout was very rapid & did not involve formed units of conventional troops invading Kosovo. But it came about only from the imminent & actual pressure of ground troops, combined with a few forward observers who could call in air strikes. Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 11:05:51 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:05:51 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that >stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it >away from me." > >Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. > >An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce >forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to >my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, >but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground >forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces >takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. > >Majikjon > > You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 20 12:01:14 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:01:14 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad References: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that > >stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it > >away from me." > > > >Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. > > > >An interesting thing happened in 1998 in Kosovo, when the US airforce > >forced a surrender without any ground troops being involved. This is, to > >my knowledge, the first and to date *only* time this has ever happened, > >but the surrender was still essentially meaningless until the ground > >forces moved in to occupy the country. The logistics of this ground forces > >takeover was basically an unprecedented situation. > > > >Majikjon > > > > > > You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military > goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go > home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. > > We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. I'm not sure if you are insinuating that the bombing of Japan was an act of terrorism? (That is a whole 'nother argument!) As far as assassination, that was "legal" until the Carter administration as I recall, and that is more of a self inflicted restraint rather than any rule of war. Jeff -Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 12:32:06 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:32:06 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43D148C6.501@brazee.net> Jeff G. wrote: >> >> You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military >> goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go >> home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. >> >> We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. > > >I'm not sure if you are insinuating that the bombing of Japan was an act of >terrorism? (That is a whole 'nother argument!) As far as assassination, that >was "legal" until the Carter administration as I recall, and that is more of >a self inflicted restraint rather than any rule of war. > > I was just listing some examples of achieving objectives of war without directly taking and holding territory. >Jeff >-Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war >with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . > > If it is the latter, it is an even better example. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 12:35:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:35:33 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601201235r229a982br7c6809837f76d4d2@mail.gmail.com> On 1/20/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > -Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war > with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . > I tend to think that deterring the Russians was a major factor in the decision process, in particular the decision to drop a second bomb. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 14:28:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:28:26 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D1348F.7030808@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/20/06 11:05 AM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Military action, at some fundamental point, involves an infantry unit that >>stands on a given spot and says "This is mine unless you can come take it >>away from me." >> >>Until this happens, the war isn't ever really won. >> > > >You don't have to hold territory in order to achieve all military >goals. Sometimes all you want is to persuade the other army to go >home. Assassination and terrorism are ways to achieve military goals. > >We didn't hold mainland Japan when the Japanese surrendered in WWII. You have to hold some territory *somewhere* in order to win. Maybe you didn't have to take it away from your opponent, but at least you had to keep him from taking yours away from you. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 20 14:31:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:31:12 -0800 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601201235r229a982br7c6809837f76d4d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/20/06 12:35 PM To cc Subject Re: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad >On 1/20/06, Jeff G. wrote: >> >> -Was the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki intended to end the war >> with Japan, or scare the Russians? Discus amongst yourselves. . . . >> > >I tend to think that deterring the Russians was a major factor in the >decision process, in particular the decision to drop a second bomb. Well, but it also certainly had a major effect on the politics of the cold war. How likely would it have been for the Cuban Missile Crisis to have escalated to full-out nuclear war if we hadn't had examples of just exactly how terrible such weapons could really be? Compare this to what many (including Vlad) seem to feel about the use of Elder Sorcery following the horrific example of Adron's Disaster. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 20 14:44:53 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:44:53 -0700 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb WAS Re: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D167E5.70105@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >You have to hold some territory *somewhere* in order to win. Maybe you >didn't have to take it away from your opponent, but at least you had to >keep him from taking yours away from you. > >Majikjon > If that's your goal. If your goal is revenge, then this isn't a priority. If your goal is to destroy the minions of Satan, then this isn't a priority. If your goal is to simply cause the state to be repressive enough so that the people rebel - then this isn't a priority. A war directed by gods may have inscrutable goals. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jan 22 11:31:21 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:31:21 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > I haven't seen any evidence that the Jenoine found Easterners interesting as > anything other than breeding stock/control group. But why Easterners, rather than cat centaurs, Serioli, or even keep uplifting (lower-case) jhereg? Or are the cat centaurs and Serioli also Jenoine experiments? > I think I posted this speculation already, but my idea on this is that the > creation of those Dragaerans who became the e'Kieron line was the goal of > the experiment. The success of the breeding program was likely the event > that triggered the revolt of Verra and her fellow slaves. I don't believe > the others are supressed. They just don't have the "genetic" patterns to > support the ability. (When you're talking "genes" that are a part of the > soul instead of the body you're talking something other than what we think > of as genetics anyway.) OK - but in that case, why are you arguing that the Easterners weren't special to begin with? If I was going for an ability to create raw amorphia under conscious control, I'd like to start with something that had the beginnings of it, given that it doesn't really look like the Jenoine had it and could splice it in another species. > Nope, we don't really know how much time passed between the Revolt and the > Migration. Aliera and Vlad (who both have the amorphia summoning ability) > represent Kieron's siblings, so Kieron was certainly not the first of the > "genetic" line. He was simply the first one famous enough to warrant the > rest of the family naming themselves in honor of him. There were probably a > few generations of parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc... before him, > but again we don't know one way or the other. Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. That's why I think that if Kieron wasn't lab-bred, or at least second generation, it kinda throws a spanner into the idea that the revolt of the servants of the Jenoine was because they succeeded in getting one raw amorphia producing Dragaeran. Dragaeran crossbreeds exist, so what's stopping a bit of hanky-panky between House members, and thus more lines that have the ability? OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers - anyone know of any textevd?) Shrug - I think I still like being Watsonian, and assuming that the little throwaway comment about blondes being unheard of in the House of the Dragon except in the e'Kieron line suggests that there is something hiding in the background of Kieron that isn't pure Dragon. Easterner or Phoenix then becomes a possibility. Karen From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 18:44:10 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:44:10 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601221843q261c844tfa014942b0ec2833@mail.gmail.com> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <2ddbda5f0601221843q261c844tfa014942b0ec2833@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> On 1/22/06, K Kuhn wrote: > > OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly > still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that > can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers > - anyone know of any textevd?) Nothing explicit, but e'Drien + 'Kieron = Morrolan e'Drien, e'Kieron + = Aliera e'Kieron, e'Lanya + = Norathar e'Lanya. Unfortunately, Morrolan's is the only case where the mother is known to belong to a Dragon line different than the father's. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 23:48:11 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:48:11 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <2ddbda5f0601221843q261c844tfa014942b0ec2833@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/22/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/22/06, K Kuhn wrote: > > > > OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly > > still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that > > can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers > > - anyone know of any textevd?) > > > Nothing explicit, but e'Drien + 'Kieron = Morrolan e'Drien, e'Kieron + > = Aliera e'Kieron, e'Lanya + = Norathar e'Lanya. > Unfortunately, Morrolan's is the only case where the mother is known to > belong to a Dragon line different than the father's. > "E'Drien, the same line as my esteemed mother, although I am inclined to think I take more after the e'Terics line of my father." -- A Dragon soldier that Clari has a conversation with, /The Lord of Castle Black/ (he's referring to Morrolan, which leads into the first part of his statement) From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 04:51:52 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 05:51:52 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> Message-ID: <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> K Kuhn wrote: >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based solely on how genetic traits are passed doesn't work. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 07:14:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:14:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/22/06 06:44 PM To SKZB List cc Subject the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/22/06, K Kuhn wrote: >> >> OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly >> still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that >> can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers >> - anyone know of any textevd?) > >Nothing explicit, but e'Drien + 'Kieron = Morrolan e'Drien, e'Kieron + > = Aliera e'Kieron, e'Lanya + = Norathar e'Lanya. >Unfortunately, Morrolan's is the only case where the mother is known to >belong to a Dragon line different than the father's. Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than their father's. Of course, the conventional rules of naming may go out the window when you're talking about the founder of an entire lineage. We don't have firm gender info about most of the other lineage namesakes, except for Kieron and Baritt, who are both male. Terics and Marish'Chala's gender are not specified. Tenith, Mondaar, and Zisya are not ever specifically mentioned, other than as the names of existing lineages. It is possible that Terics e'Marish'Chala was female (although I speculate that he was *not*). Drien, of course, was *both* so this doesn't help much, either. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 08:14:28 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:14:28 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <224a01c62038$162c57a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers > and sisters, > >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only > ones with the > >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > > > If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based > solely on how > genetic traits are passed doesn't work. Precisely. The amorphia summoning/creation/conversion ability is attached to Vlad's soul, not to his physical genetic pattern. It's part of his "mystical genetic pattern". The mixing of the physical genetic patterns between lines is irrelevant. We don't really know how much of Aliera's "genetics" involves the genetic pattern of the body and how much of it involves the genetic pattern of the soul. As for the question of Easterners being "special", I think the original position being taken was that the Eastherners must somehow be "more special" than the Dragaerans. Hence the speculation that all Easterners could summon amorphia and they just weren't aware of it. The textev at this point in the cycle doesn't support that conclusion. Rather, it supports the conclusion that the amorphia-summoning ability requires one to have a Dragaeran soul; perhaps even an "old soul" from a particular generation of souls. Sure, Terrans were "special" to the extent that the Jenoine could experiment with them and "genaform" them where they couldn't/wouldn't do it to themselves. Heck, maybe Jenoine don't have souls, at least not as we would understand the concept. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 08:24:19 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:24:19 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <224a01c62038$162c57a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <224a01c62038$162c57a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43D50333.7090709@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >Sure, Terrans were "special" to the extent that the Jenoine could experiment >with them and "genaform" them where they couldn't/wouldn't do it to >themselves. Heck, maybe Jenoine don't have souls, at least not as we would >understand the concept. > > > Heck, maybe Terrans don't have souls, at least not as Paarfi would understand the concept. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 08:41:25 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:41:25 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43D50333.7090709@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 08:24 AM To cc "'Dragaera List'" Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Scott Schultz wrote: > >>Sure, Terrans were "special" to the extent that the Jenoine could experiment >>with them and "genaform" them where they couldn't/wouldn't do it to >>themselves. Heck, maybe Jenoine don't have souls, at least not as we would >>understand the concept. >> >> >> >Heck, maybe Terrans don't have souls, at least not as Paarfi would >understand the concept. So... Paarfi doesn't believe in Franz? ;-) Majikjon -I *do* believe in spooks! I *do* believe in spooks! I do, I do, I *do* believe in spooks! From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 08:45:16 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:45:16 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than > their father's. > [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. So how, then, can amorphia creation be restricted to 'Kierons? Or in other words, can *all* e'Kierons create amorphia, or is it found only in a restricted subset of the line, none of whom happened to become e'Lanyas? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 08:52:55 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:52:55 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D50333.7090709@brazee.net> Message-ID: <229401c6203d$74d2e530$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Heck, maybe Terrans don't have souls, at least not as Paarfi would > understand the concept. Good point, though Vlad's encounter with Franz's ghost sort of indicates that Easterners probably have the same sort of soul-preservation-beyond-death thing going on that the Dragaerans have. As with most things Eastern, the Afterlife is undefined and most probably envisioned differently by every Eastern culture. Dragaerans have the advantage(?) of the afterlife being an established scientific fact, if you will. Then again, this is just another satiric riff on Tolkein. The "elfs" go to the Halls of Judgement <=> Halls of Mandos, while the "men" go somewhere mysterious and unknown; or, if Franz is a typical case, nowhere at all. It would be interesting to learn what happens to Vlad/Dolivar's soul after Vlad dies. The impression I have (with no direct textev to support) is that Dolivar's soul hung around all this time and finally reincarnated as an Easterner (i.e. Vlad) due to Karma, judgement by the Gods, or just Dolivar's hatred for everything having to do with the Empire. Is Dolivar's soul an "Eastern soul" now or is it just temporarily housed in a semi-compatible body? From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 08:58:53 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:58:53 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <229401c6203d$74d2e530$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <229401c6203d$74d2e530$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43D50B4D.8030609@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >As with most things Eastern, the Afterlife is undefined and most probably >envisioned differently by every Eastern culture. Dragaerans have the >advantage(?) of the afterlife being an established scientific fact, if you >will. Then again, this is just another satiric riff on Tolkein. The "elfs" >go to the Halls of Judgement <=> Halls of Mandos, while the "men" go >somewhere mysterious and unknown; or, if Franz is a typical case, nowhere at >all. > > There is a very long tradition in myths from Christian countries that the fey won't be saved. Stuff like Mermaids' (souls?) turning into seaweed. Us humans are really better off than those other creatures. I suppose this means that the Church won't object to those who tell the stories about elves and leprechaun and mermaids and all of those seemingly wonderful beings, as long as the storytellers make sure to tell us that they won't be saved the way we are. Of course, they won't be damned either, which the Church doesn't recognize as being advantageous. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 09:09:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:09:59 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 08:45 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the >> e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than >> their father's. >> > >[blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. So how, then, can amorphia >creation be restricted to 'Kierons? Or in other words, can *all* e'Kierons >create amorphia, or is it found only in a restricted subset of the line, >none of whom happened to become e'Lanyas? I've often wondered that same question myself. Note: It's never stated that Lanya e'Kieron could create amorphia, and since she's a dragonlord of the 4th cycle (about 40,000 years after Kieron's time) it's possible the genetics of the e'Kieron line had become diluted by then. Also note, we never see Adron create amorphia, either. Aliera does, but she may have this ability the same way Vlad does, through the soul, rather than through the genetics of her father. In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the beginning of the Empire. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 09:26:13 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:26:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601221844l1d8191a8j55f1a20365106f0c@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0601230845x56691779oca93dfd0e5f22b97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than > > their father's. > > > > [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 09:47:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:47:53 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 09:26 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> > >> > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the >> > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather than >> > their father's. >> > >> >> [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. > >Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. > >I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own >character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. Textev for Lanya e'Kieron comes from TPG, pages 402-405 of the paperback edition. (It's contained in a discussion between Uttrik and Kathana e'Merich'Chala). Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 10:20:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:20:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > >> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> > > >> > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > >> > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather > than > >> > their father's. > >> > > >> > >> [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. > > > >Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. > > > >I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own > >character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. > > Textev for Lanya e'Kieron comes from TPG, pages 402-405 of the paperback > edition. (It's contained in a discussion between Uttrik and Kathana > e'Merich'Chala). AFB - are you saying that the line was entirely matrilineal, or only refuting the idea that lines are entirely patrilineal? The above sounds like the former. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 10:24:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:24:48 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 10:20 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >> >> >> On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the >> >> > e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather >> than >> >> > their father's. >> >> > >> >> >> >> [blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. >> > >> >Me neither. Wonder if there's any evidence. >> > >> >I would have guessed that one decided one's line based on one's own >> >character and relationship to both parents in cases of mixed lineage. >> >> Textev for Lanya e'Kieron comes from TPG, pages 402-405 of the paperback >> edition. (It's contained in a discussion between Uttrik and Kathana >> e'Merich'Chala). > >AFB - are you saying that the line was entirely matrilineal, or only >refuting the idea that lines are entirely patrilineal? The above sounds >like the former. Sorry about the confusion. I was *not* trying to say that the entire line was matrilineal, but rather that Lanya's direct descendents used their mothers name. Succeding generations may have switched to a male-line tradition, it is not made clear. But the fact that the head of the line was female neccessitates at least one generation of matrilineal naming. Majikjon From steve at romlin.com Mon Jan 23 11:01:33 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:01:33 +0100 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20060123180006.26C51E9402@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060123180006.26C51E9402@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: Now I'm confused -- I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and both times he has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do this? Does anyone? I just checked the wiki to see if there are textrefs for times when someone actually CREATES amorphia but couldn't find any. Thanks for helping out this old man's memory... StY > > In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of > nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, > but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was > available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the > beginning of the Empire. > > > From howard at brazee.net Mon Jan 23 11:06:20 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:06:20 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: <20060123180006.26C51E9402@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <43D5292C.3090308@brazee.net> Steve Rapaport wrote: >Now I'm confused -- > >I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and both times he >has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? > >I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using >amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do >this? Does anyone? > > > I only remember the one time when he's in a bar and actually creates it. But my memory is often faulty. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 11:08:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:08:53 -0800 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Rapaport Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 11:01 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 >> In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of >> nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, >> but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was >> available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the >> beginning of the Empire. >Now I'm confused -- > >I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and both times he >has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? > >I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using >amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do >this? Does anyone? > >I just checked the wiki to see if there are textrefs for times when someone >actually CREATES amorphia but couldn't find any. > >Thanks for helping out this old man's memory... It's true, in /Issola/, Vlad has the chaos stone that he uses to help start the amorphia attack on the Jenoine. But all he had in /Jhereg/ was his link to the Orb, and the knowledge from Aliera that his soul could create amorphia. No chaos stones are involved in this instance. (At least, Vlad mentions none. Given that he was immobilized at the time, it would have been hard for him to use such a stone, even if one were available.) I suspect I need to re-write the article on Elder Sorcery to deliniate the borders between the major "types" of Elder Sorcery a bit more clearly. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 11:47:34 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:47:34 -0800 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24a401c62055$db36d2b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Now I'm confused -- > > I only remember two times when Vlad unleashes amorphia, and > both times he > has a bit of it to start with, or am I remembering wrong? > > I thought Vlad's unusual (e'Kieron) ability was to cast spells using > amorphia directly, not to create it from nothingness. Does he ever do > this? Does anyone? Anyone with sufficient training (Grita, for instance) can cast spells using amorphia directly. That's Elder Sorcery. When Vlad unleashes the amorphia out of desperation in _Jhereg_, he has none to start with. I don't have the book handy, but I recall that he describes the sorceress he's "hitting" as "collapsing" into a ball of raw chaos (amorphia). Whether he converted her matter into amorhphia or created bit of amorphia inside of her that subsequently consumed her could be up for discussion. The event in _Issola_ was an example of Vlad creating a Chaos Stone from an existing source of amorphia and then releasing it at a later time. It didn't involve creating it from nothing. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 11:55:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:55:42 -0800 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <24a401c62055$db36d2b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 11:47 AM To cc Subject RE: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 22 >Anyone with sufficient training (Grita, for instance) can cast spells using >amorphia directly. That's Elder Sorcery. Well, that's one *type* of Elder Sorcery. >When Vlad unleashes the amorphia out of desperation in _Jhereg_, he has none >to start with. I don't have the book handy, but I recall that he describes >the sorceress he's "hitting" as "collapsing" into a ball of raw chaos >(amorphia). Whether he converted her matter into amorhphia or created bit of >amorphia inside of her that subsequently consumed her could be up for >discussion. Either way, there's no amorphia present, then boom, there is amorphia present. This is the e'Kieron ability. >The event in _Issola_ was an example of Vlad creating a Chaos Stone from an >existing source of amorphia and then releasing it at a later time. It didn't >involve creating it from nothing. Well, sort of. It is implied by Vlad's description of using the stone that he was just using it to make the process easier... "Like the rendered goosefat becomes a base for the pepper-sauce" (or some similiar simile, I'm paraphrasing here). To me, this says that not just any Elder Sorcerer could de-stabalize a chaos stone like this, that it ties in with his e'Kieron soul abilities. That's just my opinion, granted. However, Vlad seems to *think* that his heritage matters, and he's apparently studied the subject (at least marginally) so he may well be of the correct opinion in this case. The other case of Amorphia being created "out of nowhere" that I can recall is Aliera melting down the wall of Vlad's jail in /Phoenix/. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 13:16:28 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:16:28 -0500 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. Message-ID: I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of Heroes/Villains forusm) and came to my email and realized something: Dragaerans have traditional 'super' powers- i,e, one man/woman being especially powerful, such as Loraan,. Sethra, etc., where they are exceptionally well trained, or have natural powers (amorphia creation) or even genius tactical ability. Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft could be assumed to be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get results ultimately more powerful than sorcery. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 23 14:18:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:18:07 -0800 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Louis Eastman Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/23/06 01:16 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Dragaera and Comics. >I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of Heroes/Villains forusm) and >came to my email and realized something: > >Dragaerans have traditional 'super' powers- i,e, one man/woman being >especially powerful, such as Loraan,. Sethra, etc., where they are >exceptionally well trained, or have natural powers (amorphia creation) or >even genius tactical ability. >Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft could be assumed to >be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get results ultimately >more powerful than sorcery. Look! Up in the sky! Is it a jhereg? Is it Castle Black? No! It's SuperVlad! Faster than a speeding javelin, more powerful than a Great Weapon, He stands for the Truth of a Lyorn, the Justice of an Iorich, and the Dragaerican way! Okay, sorry. I'll stop now. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 23 14:30:05 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:30:05 -0800 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <266001c6206c$8efbc7e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of > Heroes/Villains forusm) and > came to my email and realized something: Hmmm, I wonder if it's time to resurrect the idea of The Phoenix Guard supergroup... > Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft > could be assumed to > be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get > results ultimately > more powerful than sorcery. Witchcraft is different from sorcery on two counts. The first is that witchcraft is self-powered while sorcery depends upon an external power source. The second is that witchcraft is a "craft" while sorcery is a "science". Sorcery is all about cause and effect. You do A + B + C to get result D. Witchcraft is all about effect. That is, (looking at how Vlad does things) you decide upon an effect and then you just sort of figure out what sorts of activities will bring that effect into being. How you get that effect is a fairly personal thing and is not neccesarily constant from witch to witch. I'd imagine that a book of witchcraft is more like a book of advice than a book of precedures. It's no accident that Vlad and Morollan sound like a pair of chefs comparing recipes when Vlad catches Morollan practicing an unspecified witch spell in _Yendi_. To the extent that witchcraft is free-form and goal-focused instead of process-focused, it IS more powerful than sorcery. The flip side is that witchcraft consumes your personal "energy" and imposes a lassitude of both body and mind in direct proportion to the size of the effect. It's no big deal for a sorceror to move many tons of things from Here to There all day long. Vlad, however, nearly killed himself by attempting to bring something from There to Here. The flip-side being that there doesn't yet exist any sorcery that could duplicate that effect (that we've heard of). So, witchcraft is "more powerful" but the effects are so limited in scope in comparison to the "gross" (in the sense of "large") effects of sorcery that sorcery effectively trumps witchcraft in most ways that matter to the average person. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 14:32:30 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:32:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Louis Eastman > >Dragaerans have traditional 'super' powers [...] > > Look! Up in the sky! [...] There was discussion here after _Issola_ about the "superhero problem", some I suspect under my name. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 23 14:34:47 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:34:47 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2006 06:36:42 PST." Message-ID: <200601232234.k0NMYmwk026557@vice-grips.mit.edu> I'm about a month behind on the conversation, but wasn't it established in Phoenix that there were two different types of stones? In their testing at the end of Phoenix, I thought only one affected the link between Vlad and Loiosh. Hopefully the other one is the one that's preventing people from finding him via sorceress means (and prevented people from teleporting out of the jails, if I remember correctly). Has he been carrying them both around? I thought he just had the Gold ones on him. > Jose Marquez > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/11/06 09:01 PM > > To > Dragaera > cc > > Subject > Re: Not a witch? > > > > > >There is more than one type of psychic communication. Vlad and Loiosh > >can communicate clearly despite the Phoenix Stones' disruption of > >psychic/sorcerous energy, due to the familiar/witch bond. Nobody can > > Yeah, well, I've always seen this as a case of plot convenience, more than > anything else, since Brust never explains how a witch/familiar bond is > different from normal psychic contact. > > There was an internal decision-making process that said, "I need a way to > shield Vlad from Psychic energy to hide him from the Jhereg, but I need to > keep up the ongoing conversations between him and Loiosh while I do so." > > And rather than explaining a contrived difference between Vlad/Loiosh's > conversations and normal psychic ones, Brust simply notes that there *is* > a difference of some kind, and moves along. > > This is not a criticism. In fact, it's a rather elegant way of preventing > a piece of fairly meaningless minutae from getting in the way of a good > story. > > However, this is one example of where the books cross out of Science > Fiction (which generally offers explanations for things) into true Fantasy > (which does not). > > >contact Vlad or even trace him using psionics/psychics because of the > >disruptive field. It also causes him to be unable to contact others. I > >don't remember what the results of Sethra's experiments showed regarding > >the properties of Phoenix Stones. > > No results of this were ever offered to the reader, so it's not surprising > that you don't remember them. ;-) > > Majikjon > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 23 14:37:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:37:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: <200601232234.k0NMYmwk026557@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200601232234.k0NMYmwk026557@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > I'm about a month behind on the conversation, but wasn't it > established in Phoenix that there were two different types of stones? Yes, Vlad has one of each, which he wears or stores in a box made of nevermind. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Mon Jan 23 14:54:55 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:54:55 -0500 Subject: Not a witch? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:40:34 PST." <43C6E8F2.1040307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200601232254.k0NMsuoZ026689@vice-grips.mit.edu> > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > The only times Vlad and Loiosh have been separated by more than the > width of a single city are: > > #1) During the escapade on Greenaere > #2) During Loiosh's recuperation with Hwdf'rjaanci in /Orca/ > #3) During Loiosh's "Honeymoon" (presumably, we don't really know how > far away he and Rocza were during that period) Don't forget the ending of Jhereg, where Vlad teleports with whatshisface and Loiosh gets left behind. From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 15:27:09 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:27:09 -0500 Subject: Dragaera and Comics. In-Reply-To: <266001c6206c$8efbc7e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <266001c6206c$8efbc7e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Yeah, but get enough witches and you can do anything. I wonder if you had enough witches you could get something from There to There. That would be interesting, because if you got a few thousand witches you could do the equivalent of teleporting an invading army into the Furnace. On 1/23/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > I was doing my daily nerding (browsing City of > > Heroes/Villains forusm) and > > came to my email and realized something: > > Hmmm, I wonder if it's time to resurrect the idea of The Phoenix Guard > supergroup... > > > Easterns have different, odd powers. In fact, witchcraft > > could be assumed to > > be reality altering, and thus while more difficult to get > > results ultimately > > more powerful than sorcery. > > Witchcraft is different from sorcery on two counts. The first is that > witchcraft is self-powered while sorcery depends upon an external power > source. The second is that witchcraft is a "craft" while sorcery is a > "science". > > Sorcery is all about cause and effect. You do A + B + C to get result D. > Witchcraft is all about effect. That is, (looking at how Vlad does things) > you decide upon an effect and then you just sort of figure out what sorts > of > activities will bring that effect into being. How you get that effect is a > fairly personal thing and is not neccesarily constant from witch to witch. > I'd imagine that a book of witchcraft is more like a book of advice than a > book of precedures. > > It's no accident that Vlad and Morollan sound like a pair of chefs > comparing > recipes when Vlad catches Morollan practicing an unspecified witch spell > in > _Yendi_. > > To the extent that witchcraft is free-form and goal-focused instead of > process-focused, it IS more powerful than sorcery. The flip side is that > witchcraft consumes your personal "energy" and imposes a lassitude of both > body and mind in direct proportion to the size of the effect. It's no big > deal for a sorceror to move many tons of things from Here to There all day > long. Vlad, however, nearly killed himself by attempting to bring > something > from There to Here. The flip-side being that there doesn't yet exist any > sorcery that could duplicate that effect (that we've heard of). > > So, witchcraft is "more powerful" but the effects are so limited in scope > in > comparison to the "gross" (in the sense of "large") effects of sorcery > that > sorcery effectively trumps witchcraft in most ways that matter to the > average person. > > From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Jan 23 20:29:18 2006 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:29:18 -0600 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060124042919.BKEA8484.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 6:52 AM Cc: 'Dragaera List' Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) K Kuhn wrote: >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > >If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based solely on how >genetic traits are passed doesn't work. How does the soul interact with genetics and reincarnation? I believe the answer was 'oddly' There is magical influence of the house on genes, and the genes influence personality. Dolivar shared kieron's genetics. In fact, it could be argued that since Vlad is dolivar reincarnate, his soul 'genetics' is purer than anyone alive in regard to amorphia manipulation/creation (with the obvious exception of aliera and Sethra) Andy I'm tired. If this makes no sense, MEH! To you. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 24 08:49:59 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:49:59 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:43:03 MST." Message-ID: <200601241649.k0OGnx9a000792@vice-grips.mit.edu> Ordered mine today. I'm glad there were still a few left. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff G." > To: > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Hubbell" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:30 PM > > Subject: RE: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > > > > Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > > > > > Like the tiitle, this 6 page prologue to Dzur is a really sweet and > > > refreshing taste of what is to come in Dzur. It starts 10 seconds after > > the > > > end of Issola and almost immediately introduces the readers (and Vlad) > to > > > the Lavode in training which Sethra mentioned in Issola. > > > > > > The publisher, W. Paul Ganley, is selling copies of the signed and > > numbered > > > (limited to 150 signed and numbered copies) chapbook through his ebay > > store. > > > As of today, there are still 18 copies available for the standard > edition > > at > > > $8.00 each plus shipping. > > > > > 14 left now. > > > > Jeff > > - mmmmm ebay. . . . . . > > Addendum: Apparently this was meant to be, the price with shipping was > $9.60, and the amount in my PayPal account was $9.61 Interesting. . . > > Jeff > - is not nearly as creeped out by this as his wife would be. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 24 08:54:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:54:29 -0700 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust References: <200601241649.k0OGnx9a000792@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joy Jennifer Nicholson" To: "Jeff G." Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > Ordered mine today. I'm glad there were still a few left. > I received mine a few days ago, it was in good shape and well packaged. And I am relieved to find out that someone else has a signature almost as indecipherable as mine. Jeff From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jan 24 09:31:23 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:31:23 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust In-Reply-To: References: <200601241649.k0OGnx9a000792@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:54 AM, Jeff G. wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joy Jennifer Nicholson" > To: "Jeff G." > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:49 AM > Subject: Re: Klava with Honey: A Prologue by Steven Brust > > >> >> Ordered mine today. I'm glad there were still a few left. >> > I received mine a few days ago, it was in good shape and well > packaged. And > I am relieved to find out that someone else has a signature almost as > indecipherable as mine. > > Jeff > Got mine too. It was eerie... From berni12 at comcast.net Tue Jan 24 13:30:12 2006 From: berni12 at comcast.net (berni12 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:30:12 +0000 Subject: Steve's old web log.. Message-ID: <012420062130.28638.43D69C63000E6CCE00006FDE2200734076CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> My appologies for this off topic post... In the old web log I remember Stave posting a blog that discussed how happy he was with some on-line poker web site he ws using. I have tried to pull up the old blog but can't so I was hoping someone remembered the poker site's name or could point me to somewhere the old log can be viewed.. thanks in advance... B. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 24 21:32:49 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:32:49 -0800 Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <012420062130.28638.43D69C63000E6CCE00006FDE2200734076CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> References: <012420062130.28638.43D69C63000E6CCE00006FDE2200734076CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/24/06, berni12 at comcast.net wrote: > My appologies for this off topic post... > > In the old web log I remember Stave posting a blog that discussed > how happy he was with some on-line poker web site he ws using. The only bit in his log that looks even vaguely like being "happy" with an online poker reference is this, posted Tue Jun 15th, 2004 8:36 AM: "I've also been playing online poker some, at UltimateBet, and doing pretty well. " UltimateBet is indeed an online poker site, I see, but I feel no personal inclination to examine it more closely. Caveat Aleator. Much better, in terms of Steve Brust writing about poker, is this: (posted Sat Jun 8th, 2002 12:06 AM) [cite] Well, I now have most of the outline for my new poker book: Chapter 1. How to slowplay until you're beat and then check raise. Chapter 2. Drawing dead and getting there. Chapter 3. How to bluff the nuts into the guy who has them. Chapter 4. How to prevent bad beats by always going in with the worst hand. Chapter 5. How to put your opponent on a hand you can beat so you can call. Chapter 6. Chasing with overcards and other loss leaders. Chapter 7: Bad call justifications: A) I was in the blind, so I was already half in. B) They were suited C) My good hands are getting beat, so I have to play this stuff. D) In a game like this, you can't win playing just the good cards. Appendix: Lecturing your opponents on how you would have won if they'd played right. [/cite] From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 25 07:06:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:06:15 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yeah, but get enough witches and you can do anything. >I wonder if you had enough witches you could get something from There to There. >That would be interesting, because if you got a few thousand witches you >could do the equivalent of teleporting an invading army into the Furnace. That's really the biggest thing that stands out to me about the advantage witchcraft has over sorcery. A sorcerer has to be extremely powerful in order to channel and contain the amorphia that forms a spell without having it destroy them. A witch has the same kind of problem if they run themselves out of pyschic energy. When you put two sorcerers together, their abilities can operate simultaneously, but are entirely separate. So it's an arithmatic function. 4 sorcerers + 4 sorcerers = 8 sorcerers. But when you put two witches together, their abilities interact and enhance each other, meaning it's more like they are multiplied... 4 witches x 4 witches = 16 witches. With low numbers like one or two witches, this doesn't make much of a difference, 2+2=4 and 2x2=4 also, so this is a wash. But the larger the numbers are in your groups of sorcerers vs witches, the more of an advantage the witches would have. In addition, there seem to be extra bonuses for the witches when they form a circle of 34... And when the number of circles reach specific points. (17 and 34 maybe?) So, with 289 witches vs 289 sorcerers, the sorcerers are really only as powerful as their strongest member. Whereas the witches power just keeps growing with their numbers. What could they do with such power? Teleport an invading army into the furnace? Sure. But why think small? Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 25 08:00:18 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:00:18 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Louis Eastman" Cc: "Dragaera" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:06 AM Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? > >Yeah, but get enough witches and you can do anything. > >I wonder if you had enough witches you could get something from There to > There. > >That would be interesting, because if you got a few thousand witches you > >could do the equivalent of teleporting an invading army into the Furnace. > > > That's really the biggest thing that stands out to me about the advantage > witchcraft has over sorcery. > > A sorcerer has to be extremely powerful in order to channel and contain > the amorphia that forms a spell without having it destroy them. A witch > has the same kind of problem if they run themselves out of pyschic energy. > > When you put two sorcerers together, their abilities can operate > simultaneously, but are entirely separate. So it's an arithmatic function. > 4 sorcerers + 4 sorcerers = 8 sorcerers. > > But when you put two witches together, their abilities interact and > enhance each other, meaning it's more like they are multiplied... 4 > witches x 4 witches = 16 witches. > > With low numbers like one or two witches, this doesn't make much of a > difference, 2+2=4 and 2x2=4 also, so this is a wash. > > But the larger the numbers are in your groups of sorcerers vs witches, the > more of an advantage the witches would have. > > In addition, there seem to be extra bonuses for the witches when they form > a circle of 34... And when the number of circles reach specific points. > (17 and 34 maybe?) > > So, with 289 witches vs 289 sorcerers, the sorcerers are really only as > powerful as their strongest member. Whereas the witches power just keeps > growing with their numbers. > > What could they do with such power? Teleport an invading army into the > furnace? Sure. But why think small? > > Majikjon > > > > > > But. . . . With 289 sorcerers you can have 289 different spells, whereas witchcraft does not seem to be good at multitasking. Also, is there any textev showing sorcerers cannot work together on a spell? It is implied by the works of most of the characters that we see, but they are all sufficiently powerful that they don't require any assistance. The concept of spell wagons, sorcerers corps, hint that same sorcerers work together, and Daymars offer of assistance to Vlad while performing a spell (a witchcraft spell, I know) shows that the concept at least exist. Jeff P.S. Also, didn't Sethra and Daymar work together to "avoid" the Phoenix stones? Or was that simply two concurrent spells? I don't know if that was ever definitively answered in the text. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 25 08:23:35 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:23:35 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/25/06 08:00 AM To , cc Subject Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? ----- Original Message ----- From: >> >> But when you put two witches together, their abilities interact and >> enhance each other, meaning it's more like they are multiplied... 4 >> witches x 4 witches = 16 witches. >> >> With low numbers like one or two witches, this doesn't make much of a >> difference, 2+2=4 and 2x2=4 also, so this is a wash. >> >> But the larger the numbers are in your groups of sorcerers vs witches, the >> more of an advantage the witches would have. >But. . . . > >With 289 sorcerers you can have 289 different spells, whereas witchcraft Well, there's the example of what Morrolan's Circle did against Tri'nagore. They nullified his protections, allowing Blackwand to "kill" him, while (presumably) also keeping Castle Black from falling out of the sky. This is, by my count, a coven doing two things at once. The question then becomes: What the limit is in terms of "threads" of tasks that a circle of witches can handle? >does not seem to be good at multitasking. Also, is there any textev showing >sorcerers cannot work together on a spell? It is implied by the works of I believe Vlad comments on this inability of sorcerers to work as a "team" when he's describing witchcraft right near the beginning of /Jhereg/. Maybe it's only by implication, but it's something he holds up as one of the examples of how witchcraft is different from sorcery. >most of the characters that we see, but they are all sufficiently powerful >that they don't require any assistance. The concept of spell wagons, >sorcerers corps, hint that same sorcerers work together, and Daymars offer >of assistance to Vlad while performing a spell (a witchcraft spell, I know) >shows that the concept at least exist. Certainly, the more sorcerers there are, the more different things they can do, and the more they can perform concurrent spells that have effects that complement one another. (Example, one sorcerer levitates a 50 gallon barrell of Kerosene, and another causes it to explode.) But its the combined cumulative power of the witches that's superior. Even Sethra Lavode can only channel so much power. But with large covens of witches, you could have the power-equivilent of several Sethras. >P.S. Also, didn't Sethra and Daymar work together to "avoid" the Phoenix >stones? Or was that simply two concurrent spells? I don't know if that was >ever definitively answered in the text. The way I read it, this is another example of concurrent, separate spells whose effects complement one another. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 09:04:22 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > But its the combined cumulative power of the witches that's superior. Even > Sethra Lavode can only channel so much power. But with large covens of > witches, you could have the power-equivilent of several Sethras. Seems entirely speculative to me. Worse, it seems like an unreasonable comparison. Want to float a castle? One pre-New Orb sorcerer could do it for you, and then he'd go about his normal business. Or you could get a small army of witches working in shifts in perpetuity at the edge of exhaustion. Assuming some god doesn't shut the spigot somehow. Want to do something like express your will and desires on the universe, without much knowing how it's supposed to happen? Try witchcraft. Maybe sorcery could do it better, maybe not. Want to face down an army of Easterners? One New Orb sorcerer can do that, I think - the SiG, for example. Can an small army of witches manage that? Apparently not. Off on some random planet or phase of reality? Not so much with the sorcery. Also note the discussion should probably include the question of magical implements. And what the Empress can do with the Orb directly. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 25 09:19:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:19:29 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? > > Also note the discussion should probably include the question of magical > implements. And what the Empress can do with the Orb directly. And that is a good question. Adron implied that the Orb is capable of all kinds of nastiness, but the Empress failed to use it against her enemies on several occasions. Jeff -would have no problems laying waste to his enemies with a magical implement. Except that he doesn't have one. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jan 25 09:28:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:28:31 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/25/06 09:04 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? >On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> But its the combined cumulative power of the witches that's superior. Even >> Sethra Lavode can only channel so much power. But with large covens of >> witches, you could have the power-equivilent of several Sethras. > >Seems entirely speculative to me. Entirely. No question about it. >Worse, it seems like an unreasonable comparison. Yes, it's an apples and oranges type of comparison in many ways, and yet, there are some things that even apples and oranges have in common... (They're both fruit, they both provide nutrition, etc.) The comparison is meant to look at two things: How *much* can one do with Sorcery as compared to witchcraft? and What *types* of things can be done with either which category are more useful? This last question is highly subjective, and I don't think it can be answered definitively. >Want to float a castle? One pre-New Orb sorcerer could do it for you, >and then he'd go about his normal business. Or you could get a small >army of witches working in shifts in perpetuity at the edge of exhaustion. >Assuming some god doesn't shut the spigot somehow. One powerful, highly trained pre-Orb sorcerer could do it for you. Or Tazendra could do it for you Post-New-Orb, but she's also a highly trained Wizard, and a Lavode. And shutting off the spigot was a bigger problem for sorcery-supported floating castles (see the Interregnum) than it has proven to be for Castle Black. >Want to do something like express your will and desires on the universe, >without much knowing how it's supposed to happen? Try witchcraft. Maybe >sorcery could do it better, maybe not. > >Want to face down an army of Easterners? One New Orb sorcerer can do >that, I think - the SiG, for example. Can an small army of witches >manage that? Apparently not. Even the SiG didn't win the battle of Adrilankha by herself, even after the Orb's power was restored. And remember the old line about knives and wizards, of course. (Which we see to be a problem with her later, during the events of "Yendi") >Off on some random planet or phase of reality? Not so much with the >sorcery. >Also note the discussion should probably include the question of magical >implements. And what the Empress can do with the Orb directly. Does witchcraft have "implements"? I suppose it's been seen to make charms and wards, and such, and crystals seem to have some special significance. But in terms of raw power-wielding devices, that seems to be more of a sorcery thing. The only equivilent I can think of in witchcraft is the familiar. (And I doubt Loiosh would respond well to being called an "implement".) Majikjon From berni12 at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 13:55:09 2006 From: berni12 at comcast.net (berni12 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:55:09 +0000 Subject: Steve's old web log.. Message-ID: <012520062155.8210.43D7F3BD0008E29D000020122200750330CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> Heh... Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Davdi Silverrock > On 1/24/06, berni12 at comcast.net wrote: > > My appologies for this off topic post... > > > > In the old web log I remember Stave posting a blog that discussed > > how happy he was with some on-line poker web site he ws using. > > The only bit in his log that looks even vaguely like being "happy" > with an online poker reference is this, posted Tue Jun 15th, 2004 8:36 > AM: > > "I've also been playing online poker some, at UltimateBet, > and doing pretty well. " > > UltimateBet is indeed an online poker site, I see, but I feel no > personal inclination to examine it more closely. Caveat Aleator. > > > Much better, in terms of Steve Brust writing about poker, is this: > > (posted Sat Jun 8th, 2002 12:06 AM) > > [cite] > > Well, I now have most of the outline for my new poker book: > > Chapter 1. How to slowplay until you're beat and then check > raise. > Chapter 2. Drawing dead and getting there. > Chapter 3. How to bluff the nuts into the guy who has them. > Chapter 4. How to prevent bad beats by always going in with > the worst hand. > Chapter 5. How to put your opponent on a hand you can beat > so you can call. > Chapter 6. Chasing with overcards and other loss leaders. > Chapter 7: Bad call justifications: > A) I was in the blind, so I was already half in. > B) They were suited > C) My good hands are getting beat, so I have to play this > stuff. > D) In a game like this, you can't win playing just the > good cards. > > Appendix: Lecturing your opponents on how you would have won > if they'd played right. > > [/cite] > _______________________________________________ > Dragaera mailing list > Dragaera at dragaera.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060125/9f3e361c/attachment-0001.html From rone at ennui.org Wed Jan 25 14:23:50 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:23:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <012520062155.8210.43D7F3BD0008E29D000020122200750330CDCE07029D0A0D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> berni12 at comcast.net writes: Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. As long as the subtitle is "But They Rarely Do". rone -- No IT story is complete without an unhappy ending. - Roy S. Rapoport From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 14:28:23 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:28:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, rone wrote: > berni12 at comcast.net writes: > Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. > > As long as the subtitle is "But They Rarely Do". Subsubtitled, "But Why Not You?" and, "Being Poor's a Sin". From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jan 25 15:59:55 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:59:55 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... Message-ID: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female Issolas (Issoli?:). Anyone? Do I have to hunt through every Dragaera book I have? (Not that that's a *bad* thing, mind.) Cheers! Chris From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 16:06:39 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? > Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female > Issolas (Issoli?:). Did you look at the early chapter of _TPG_ where the Musketeers take a ride? Also there might be a clue in Vlad's chat with the Jhereg Imperial contact, who is as best I recall male and Issolesque, and might have a sartorial gesture in the direction of that house. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 25 16:08:45 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:08:45 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> >Subject >Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? > > Electricity or gasoline, who wins? Ships or trains, who wins? Horses or cows, who wins? Hammers or saws, who wins? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 16:10:39 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? > Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female > Issolas (Issoli?:). Also see the medium-late chapter of _O_ where Vlad bribes a male minstrel, iirc. Though now that I think of it, V's not nearly as clothes-conscious as Paarfi, or perhaps just not as articulate. And of course one would imagine fashions change quickly, outside of practical or conservative houses. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jan 25 16:12:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:12:21 -0700 Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <43D813E5.8060001@brazee.net> rone wrote: >berni12 at comcast.net writes: > Maybe I should email him a draft of my "Any 2 Cards Can Win".. > >As long as the subtitle is "But They Rarely Do". > >rone > > There's a Dortmunder story where he has to lose his winnings in a poker game that's pretty funny. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 16:19:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:19:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's old web log.. In-Reply-To: <43D813E5.8060001@brazee.net> References: <20060125222350.05755682B4@boredom.ennui.org> <43D813E5.8060001@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > There's a Dortmunder story where he has to lose his winnings in a poker > game that's pretty funny. Another (?) vote for the Dortmunder series by Westlake. They're comic, world-weary crime novels, for the most part of great lightness and craft and cleverness. Try e.g. _Bank Shot_. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 17:03:20 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arturo Pérez-Reverte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: from http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/books/26masl.html The furtive figure slips quietly into the darkened house, dressed in mufti rather than in his usual swirling cape. He is armed lightly, with only oiled flintlock, sword and dagger. As he slips toward the bed of his sleeping prey, his aquiline profile and luxuriant mustache are visible by the shadowy light of an oil lamp. Holding a knife to the chin of his latest conquest, he asks: "Do you know who I am?" You bet we do. He is Capt. Diego Alatriste y Tenorio, the brooding, charismatic hero of Arturo P?rez-Reverte's wildly successful Spanish swashbuckling novels. He is profoundly cynical yet quietly principled, weary of battle yet ready to duel if he must. He is a man of few words but many melancholy gazes into the void. He has an iguana, his familiar, on one shoulder. See also, http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/14015 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/2161 etc From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jan 25 18:08:25 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:08:25 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? Message-ID: <3111F340.216DEF61.00048EA6@aol.com> Howard Brazee writes: >Electricity or gasoline, who wins? > >Ships or trains, who wins? > >Horses or cows, who wins? > >Hammers or saws, who wins? from Emma Bull's "Silver or Gold": : "You are a witch," said the King of Stones, gently mocking. "You : read symbols and make them, and craft them into nets to catch truth : in. This is the meat of your training, to read the true nature of : a thing. Here are symbols -- choose between. Pick the truer. : Pick the better." : He pressed forward first one hand, then the other. "Silver, or : gold? Left or right? Night or day, moon" -- she heard him mock : her again -- "or sun, water or fire, waning or waxing, female or : male. Have I forgotten any?" -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 22:42:37 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:42:37 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > > >>Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? >>Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female >>Issolas (Issoli?:). >> >> > >Also see the medium-late chapter of _O_ where Vlad bribes a male minstrel, >iirc. Though now that I think of it, V's not nearly as clothes-conscious >as Paarfi, or perhaps just not as articulate. > > That minstrel was not an Issola. (Perhaps you are thinking of Sara, the minstrel from /Athyra/?) In response to the initial querry, the only appearances of male Issola that I recall is the Issola who became Lord Brudik for Zerika IV during the events of Sethra Lavode. Allistar is *dressed* as an Issola (in disguise) at the beginning of The Phoenix Guard. (This can be found on page 18 of the paperback edition). Unfortunately, the description given of his attire is rather sparse on detail, other than the mention of an issola-shaped ring, and the fact that the garments were, of course, green and white. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 22:51:59 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:51:59 -0800 Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> References: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43D8718F.6040502@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > >> Subject >> Re: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? >> >> > > Electricity or gasoline, who wins? > Depends. How expensive is the gasoline? How advanced are your electric engines? > Ships or trains, who wins? Depends. Are you fighting your battles on land or at sea? > > Horses or cows, who wins? Depends. Are you in the middle of a war, or in the middle of a famine? > Hammers or saws, who wins? Saws. Much more useful all around, provided there is timber. And if there isn't timber, the hammer wouldn't do you much good either. The point is not so much to answer which form of magic is "better", but simply which is more practical, and under what conditions one form might outperform the other. Majikjon Of course, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a.... ...kneecap. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:01:51 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:01:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > > > > > >>Does anyone recall an example of a male Issola and what they wear? > >>Green and white, yes, but I only recall clothing descriptions of female > >>Issolas (Issoli?:). > >Also see the medium-late chapter of _O_ where Vlad bribes a male minstrel, > >iirc. Though now that I think of it, V's not nearly as clothes-conscious > >as Paarfi, or perhaps just not as articulate. > > > > > That minstrel was not an Issola. As I see from _O_, pg 195, he's a Teckla. However, that's not necessarily relevant to Chris's question. Entirely relevant is the complete lack of description of his attire. Another similar possibility is _TPG_, pg 195 (amusingly): "Beed'n, the Cavalier minstrel of the early Sixteenth Cycle, easily recognized by the peacock feathers he wore trailing down from his beret..." From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:03:41 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Witchcraft vs Sorcery, who wins? In-Reply-To: <43D8718F.6040502@comcast.net> References: <43D8130D.6030502@brazee.net> <43D8718F.6040502@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > The point is not so much to answer which form of magic is "better", but > simply which is more practical, and under what conditions one form might > outperform the other. A point better served by a different subject line. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:09:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:09:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601191442j4b5865f3ye281050931da41fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601191442j4b5865f3ye281050931da41fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/19/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > What this means about Morrolan's true character, or Khaavren's, or Pel's, > > is quite interesting, I suspect. > > Morrolan, for one, is perfectly willing to tolerate rumors about his > dispatching entire villages of hapless Easterners on a whim. W/rt > Khaavren and Pel, I don't know if you're insinuating that they have > similar attitudes, or that the portrayals are accurate enough that > they can't object. Or perhaps you're merely noting it as "interesting" > without passing judgment yet? I haven't pursued this line myself, in part because I'm not sure SKZB really cares to have the Paarfiad and Vladiad be consistent. But one could ask the question, does Pel not care to see his old plots and true character made public? Or is he unable to prevent Paarfi from exposing him? Or does everything Paarfi says cast him in a useful light - e.g., the actual Pel is much cleverer and manipulative than the Paarfian Pel? From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:14:11 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:14:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > >Time travel weirds history. > > > > > > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? > > Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and > future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our > present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a > given. Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being conveyed back. And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence going on (great, I'm going to have to relive the 2000 election) and the Texts are being projected forward... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jan 25 23:24:58 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:24:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): > > > > I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. > > > > It occurrs to me that this is the explanation that is most likely to > propagate. After all, which is more likely - that Aliera e'Kieron; [...] > has been messing about with amorphia -- or that some random Easterner > has spontaneously gained the ability to mess about with amorphia? One might ask why Aliera needed to resort to it. Also I think this counter-explanation would lead those who know the truth to insist more strongly on what they saw. Also an improbable element is often said to make stories seem more, not less plausible. Finally, if as I claimed earlier an amorphia-wielding Easterner is a Dragaeran's worst nightmare, that would add traction to the truth. > Anyone who hears about the incident is going to focus on the presence > of Aliera, and no doubt say "Oy. /Her/, again. Well, at least she > didn't destroy Adrilankha." I can well imagine drunks at Castle Black mocking A for her lack of self-control. I'm not sure but I suspect that she would have trouble responding as if she had been irresponsible in that fashion. > If Vlad gets mentioned at all, it might be as "I wonder what was so > special about him that she thought it was worth risking the creation > of a new Sea of Chaos?" And the witnesses, or conspiracy theorists, or fear-mongers, or pessimists would say, Well there you go, more reason to accept my story. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 23:39:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:39:02 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> References: <43D810FB.1020206@Sun.COM> <43D86F5D.4070000@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > In response to the initial querry, the only appearances of male Issola > that I recall is the Issola who became Lord Brudik for Zerika IV during > the events of Sethra Lavode. > Why does everyone forget poor Hub? Not that it makes much difference, since his clothing isn't described either. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 02:49:12 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 05:49:12 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> Message-ID: > > Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, > it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the > genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. That's > why I think that if Kieron wasn't lab-bred, or at least second > generation, it kinda throws a spanner into the idea that the revolt of > the servants of the Jenoine was because they succeeded in getting one > raw amorphia producing Dragaeran. Dragaeran crossbreeds exist, so > what's stopping a bit of hanky-panky between House members, and thus > more lines that have the ability? > > OTOH, even several generations after Kieron, that line is supposedly > still the only one where it shows up. Fathers are the only ones that > can pass it to their offspring, maybe? (Is the e'blank based on fathers > - anyone know of any textevd?) Shrug - I think I still like being > Watsonian, and assuming that the little throwaway comment about blondes > being unheard of in the House of the Dragon except in the e'Kieron line > suggests that there is something hiding in the background of Kieron that > isn't pure Dragon. Easterner or Phoenix then becomes a possibility. The other lines of Dragon don't have it, possibly because the genes needed to make it work are so familiar with e'Kierons that once you have them you are an e'Kieron. However, this is funky with stuff like Baritt and Lanya. Perhaps since they're basing their lineage off Lanya, and certain genes of his/hers, then some may have it and some may not. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 06:26:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:26:48 -0800 Subject: Issola Help... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Philip Hart wrote: > >Another similar possibility is _TPG_, pg 195 (amusingly): > >"Beed'n, the Cavalier minstrel of the early Sixteenth Cycle, easily >recognized by the peacock feathers he wore trailing down from his >beret..." I always thought Beed'n was more likely to be a Dragon, given that he wrote marching music... Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 06:33:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 06:33:58 -0800 Subject: Pel's Fate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 1/19/06, Philip Hart wrote: > >I haven't pursued this line myself, in part because I'm not sure SKZB >really cares to have the Paarfiad and Vladiad be consistent. But one >could ask the question, does Pel not care to see his old plots and true >character made public? Or is he unable to prevent Paarfi from exposing >him? Or does everything Paarfi says cast him in a useful light - e.g., >the actual Pel is much cleverer and manipulative than the Paarfian Pel? Or is it possibly for the entirely practical reason that he is dead, and therefore not able to contest the account if he'd wanted to? The fates of most of the characters in the Paarfi books are not known, save for the ones who we know are dead, and the ones who Paarfi directly states are still alive at the time of his writing. (This includes Khaavren, Piro and Ibronka.) Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Jan 26 07:17:57 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:17:57 -0500 Subject: High Tech vs. the Orb In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:44:33 PST." Message-ID: <200601261517.k0QFHvGE021926@vice-grips.mit.edu> > Things like radio are certainly worth mentioning--however, in most > instances, I'd say that psionic communication beats it hands-down. Radio > is not so much an "advantage" as it is a way for the Easterners to "keep > up" with the Dragaerans. Still important, just not decisive. > Radio has some real advantages over sorcery. Radio allows for conversation between an entire group of people at once, instead of one-to-one at a time. Radio also doesn't require that you know the person that you're talking to. Using a radio doesn't require that you stop everything else you're doing and concentrate on the conversation (how much psionic conversation requires this may depend on the skill of the user). From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 07:19:00 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:19:00 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601260719s291ba82alc9045a73fe28ddb9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/26/06, Philip Hart wrote: > I can well imagine drunks at Castle Black mocking A for her lack of > self-control. I'm not sure but I suspect that she would have trouble > responding as if she had been irresponsible in that fashion. Given that Aliera's first reflex w/rt obstacles (including Jenoine) sometimes seems to be, "Kill it," I'm not sure you could tell the difference between Aliera-being-mocked-unfairly-for-an-incident-that-never-happened and Aliera-being-mocked-for-an-embarrassing-but-true-incident, since both are likely to involve a fair amount of blood and, when all is said and done, no witnesses to the purported incident. ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 07:22:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:22:05 -0700 Subject: Pel's Fate? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601260722t1d71713cl1d4c8860fd55291f@mail.gmail.com> On 1/26/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Or is it possibly for the entirely practical reason that he is dead, and > therefore not able to contest the account if he'd wanted to? > > The fates of most of the characters in the Paarfi books are not known, > save for the ones who we know are dead, and the ones who Paarfi directly > states are still alive at the time of his writing. (This includes > Khaavren, Piro and Ibronka.) What's more, if Pel might be dead, hey! it might as well be Vlad who killed him. Or maybe Vlad Norathar, depending on timeline. ;) Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 07:24:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:24:04 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/25/06 11:14 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and >> future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our >> present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a >> given. > >Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being >conveyed back. And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence >going on (great, I'm going to have to relive the 2000 election) and >the Texts are being projected forward... Hmm... That's an intriguing possibility. I think I prefer it to the idea of time travel (or time-crossing communication of some sort.) Of course, it does smack of Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series a little too much for my taste. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 07:26:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 07:26:34 -0800 Subject: Pel's Fate? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601260722t1d71713cl1d4c8860fd55291f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/06 07:22 AM To SKZB List cc Subject Re: Pel's Fate? >What's more, if Pel might be dead, hey! it might as well be Vlad who >killed him. Or maybe Vlad Norathar, depending on timeline. My money's on Zungaron. ;-) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jan 26 07:28:10 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:28:10 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601260728k7d7743c1x5a65b1481a10e3ee@mail.gmail.com> On 1/26/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I think I prefer it to the idea of time travel (or time-crossing > communication of some sort.) > > Of course, it does smack of Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series a > little too much for my taste. If it makes you feel better: aside from the existence of Hungarian-like peasants, the only things that actually *have* to recur in both universes are Marxist writings, which is curiously appropriate. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 26 08:02:25 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:02:25 -0700 Subject: Pel's Fate? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Maximilian Wilson" Cc: ; "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Pel's Fate? > Maximilian Wilson > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/26/06 07:22 AM > > To > SKZB List > cc > > Subject > Re: Pel's Fate? > > > > > >What's more, if Pel might be dead, hey! it might as well be Vlad who > >killed him. Or maybe Vlad Norathar, depending on timeline. > > My money's on Zungaron. ;-) > > Majikjon > > Should that be a spoiler? Jeff -wants to see how exactly Zungaron sits down. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 09:13:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:13:15 -0800 Subject: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/06 08:02 AM To cc Subject Re: Pel's Fate? >Should that be a spoiler? > >Jeff >-wants to see how exactly Zungaron sits down. I didn't feel it was required, since the name Zungaron came up in /Issola/, and I didn't comment at all about any other specifics related to Zungaron. This message, OTOH, mentions that Vlad meets Zungaron in /Dzur/ (Or at least, in "Klava with Honey:A Prologue") so it earns the spoiler warning. ;-) This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Thu Jan 26 10:07:54 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:07:54 -0500 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00db01c622a3$6e1b3bd0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Majikjon writ: > This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers > for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? > > Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out >, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. There's no one true standard. There are many here, who, in addition to the Subject alert you added, would add spoiler space to the body of their message. MV Casey From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jan 26 10:15:25 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:15:25 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey Message-ID: <136E529A-6365-4448-ADAB-B9D9C68D78BF@mac.com> Does this preprint of an introduction deserve an abbreviation (i.e., KwH) pending the publication of Dzur? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 10:19:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:19:05 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? ) In-Reply-To: <00db01c622a3$6e1b3bd0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/2006 10:07 AM To cc Subject Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) >Majikjon writ: > >> This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers >> for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? >> >> Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out >>, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. > > >There's no one true standard. There are many here, who, in addition to the >Subject alert you added, would add spoiler space to the body of their >message. MV Sounds reasonable. I suppose a bigger question (for me, anyway), is how to handle the "Klava with Honey" situation on the Wikicity. I will have to take this up on the discussion pages over there. Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Thu Jan 26 10:43:04 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:43:04 -0500 Subject: Klava with Honey In-Reply-To: <136E529A-6365-4448-ADAB-B9D9C68D78BF@mac.com> Message-ID: <000501c622a8$57e65200$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Kenneth Gorelick asked: > Does this preprint of an introduction deserve an > abbreviation (i.e., KwH) pending the publication of Dzur? Sounds good to me. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jan 26 10:47:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:47:03 -0800 Subject: Klava with Honey In-Reply-To: <136E529A-6365-4448-ADAB-B9D9C68D78BF@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/26/06 10:15 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Klava with Honey >Does this preprint of an introduction deserve an abbreviation (i.e., >KwH) pending the publication of Dzur? Whether is deserves it or not, I think it just got one. ;-) Interestingly, it's also the abbreviation for Kilowatt hours, which I've probably wasted far too many of staying up late reading /The Gypsy/ over the last few nights... Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Fri Jan 27 09:12:40 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:09:59 PST." Message-ID: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. > Maximilian Wilson > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 01/23/06 08:45 AM > > To > SKZB List > cc > > Subject > Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout > Kragar?) > > > > > > > >On 1/23/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> > >> Note; Lanya e'Kieron herself was a female, and the "founder" of the > >> e'Lanya line. Hence, her descendants used their mother's name, rather > than > >> their father's. > >> > > > >[blinks] Somehow, I wasn't aware of that. So how, then, can amorphia > >creation be restricted to 'Kierons? Or in other words, can *all* > e'Kierons > >create amorphia, or is it found only in a restricted subset of the line, > >none of whom happened to become e'Lanyas? > > I've often wondered that same question myself. > > Note: It's never stated that Lanya e'Kieron could create amorphia, and > since she's a dragonlord of the 4th cycle (about 40,000 years after > Kieron's time) it's possible the genetics of the e'Kieron line had become > diluted by then. > > Also note, we never see Adron create amorphia, either. Aliera does, but > she may have this ability the same way Vlad does, through the soul, rather > than through the genetics of her father. > > In fact, the only Elder Sorcerers we see creating amorphia out of > nothingness are Aliera and Vlad. It is stated that Kieron had the ability, > but never used it. This may be an extremely limited ability, that was > available only to a generation or two worth of e'Kierons right at the > beginning of the Empire. > > Majikjon > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jan 27 09:18:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:18:54 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: Joy Jennifer Nicholson 01/27/06 09:12 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Maximilian Wilson , SKZB List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but >Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he >is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means >that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but >Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to >Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's >only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. That was my basic point. We don't know that Adron *could* create amorphia. We never see him do so, and Aliera never says he could, either. Aliera could have gotten her Amorphia creation ability the same way Vlad did, tho, since her soul is a reincarnation of Keiron's other brother. Or maybe she inherited the ability from her mother? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 27 10:02:59 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:02:59 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but >Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he >is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means >that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but >Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to >Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's >only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. > > This characteristic isn't biologically genetic. It appears to be associated with souls, so that when someone has this characteristic, his reincarnated should has it. I've always been puzzled by people who believe in reincarnation - if I can't remember my past, and if whomever has my soul in the future can't remember my present - what's the difference between that and being three different people? With this in mind, I look at characters we have met in the Halls. I haven't seen that they are multiple people - from their various life times. Has Steve mentioned what reincarnation means in his world? Speaking of Steve - when he doesn't post on his weblog for a while, does that mean he's busy working? From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jan 27 10:15:32 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:15:32 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <309a01c6236d$a94fbb20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I was always confused about how Aliera can create amorphia, but > Morrolan can't. They're cousins. According to Morrolan in Talsos, he > is the eldest son of Aliera's father's youngest sister. So that means > that Adron could create amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but > Adron's sister either didn't have the trait or didn't pass it on to > Morrolan. That makes it a recessive trait? Does that mean that it's > only survived this long through inbreeding? I don't get it. The ability to create amorphia is linked to the soul, not to the genome. In fact, thinking about it just now, I've realized that we don't have any evidence that the ability is passed through the genome at all. The only examples that we have are people who are reincarnated early-generation souls. Perhaps, when Aliera talks about "e'Kieron", she isn't explicitly discussing genome and heredity. She could be simply saying that the ability was owned by the group of Dragaerans who eventually called themselves "e'Kieron" and so founded the lineage. It may well be that only those original souls are able to do the "amorphia from nowhere" trick. It's even possible that those souls only reincarnate into their biological descendants but that's pure speculation designed to justify a way for the ability to be attached to the soul and still be attached to the genome as well. Vlad is a clear aberration in this respect, so it's not something that is set in stone, assuming that it's normally true. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 27 10:29:57 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Joy Jennifer Nicholson > > >According to Morrolan in Talsos, he is the eldest son of Aliera's > >father's youngest sister. So that means that Adron could create > >amorphia and passed it on to Aliera, but Adron's sister either didn't > >have the trait or didn't pass it on to Morrolan. That makes it a > >recessive trait? Not that I see. Adron has one copy, his sister doesn't; or she does but her child doesn't. Also note that Verra has something in mind here, judging from _TEoDM_. > That was my basic point. We don't know that Adron *could* create amorphia. > We never see him do so, and Aliera never says he could, either. Note that _Issola_ shows that Adron has a special relationship with amorphia. Readers of Michael Swanwick's great novel _The Iron Dragon's Daughter_ will recall his portrait of powerful nobles related to chaos. Perhaps something of the sort is going on - perhaps the E'Kierons were recognized by amorphia - that is, it came to know their genes and souls, or they have a family connection. As best I recall Aliera describes becoming an Elder Sorcerer as getting to know chaos and getting it to know the sorcerer. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 11:11:36 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:11:36 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> References: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601271111q5395374du11b136e3567cb6bd@mail.gmail.com> On 1/27/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I've always been puzzled by people who believe in reincarnation - if I > can't remember my past, and if whomever has my soul in the future can't > remember my present - what's the difference between that and being three > different people? With this in mind, I look at characters we have met > in the Halls. I haven't seen that they are multiple people - from > their various life times. Has Steve mentioned what reincarnation > means in his world? I have to agree with you about reincarnation--in my mind, it must be less a belief per se about a factual occurrence than a perspective about what constitutes identity. And of course, if you allow your sense of "me" to encompass other beings, who's to say that they can't exist concurrently? If it tickles your aesthetic fancy to believe that all humans are serial reincarnations of the only human who ever lived (or lives), who am I to gainsay you? It appears to be indistinguishable in practical terms from no belief in reincarnation at all, although the aesthetics might inspire you to be a little kinder to other people (or just the opposite). Fortunately, Vlad's experience appears to be a little less mystical. At minimum, reincarnation brings certain "genes" with it, apparently personality traits (at least Sethra thinks so about Vlad/Dolivar), and perhaps latent memories (Sethra offers to re-awaken Vlad's past memories, not implant them). "Reincarnation" in the Brustiverse has an objective reality. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 11:12:46 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:12:46 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601271112s3aa639d8v8136421bf661449d@mail.gmail.com> On 1/27/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Not that I see. Adron has one copy, his sister doesn't; or she does but > her child doesn't. Also note that Verra has something in mind here, > judging from _TEoDM_. Reminder, please? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jan 27 11:28:48 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:28:48 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601271111q5395374du11b136e3567cb6bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <200601271712.k0RHCfZx001798@vice-grips.mit.edu> <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0601271111q5395374du11b136e3567cb6bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43DA7470.20004@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >Fortunately, Vlad's experience appears to be a little less mystical. >At minimum, reincarnation brings certain "genes" with it, apparently >personality traits (at least Sethra thinks so about Vlad/Dolivar), and >perhaps latent memories (Sethra offers to re-awaken Vlad's past >memories, not implant them). "Reincarnation" in the Brustiverse has an >objective reality. > > It would be interesting to see Dolivar interacting with Sethra. So much of what we recognize as Vlad seems to be based upon his environment. I'd like to see him through the eyes of someone who remembers Dolivar. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 27 12:12:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601271112s3aa639d8v8136421bf661449d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601271112s3aa639d8v8136421bf661449d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: _The Lord of Castle Black_ spoiler warning added and removed because it's been out in ppb a long time: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/27/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > Not that I see. Adron has one copy, his sister doesn't; or she does but > > her child doesn't. Also note that Verra has something in mind here, > > judging from _TEoDM_. > > Reminder, please? My bad - see pg 379 of _TLoCB_, where V says that M will turn to Elder Sorcery, is questioned about his problematic "bloodlines", and replies, "we shall see". From casey at the-bat.net Fri Jan 27 14:33:09 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:33:09 -0500 Subject: Steve's weblog In-Reply-To: <43DA6053.6010706@brazee.net> Message-ID: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Howard Brazee asked: > Speaking of Steve - when he doesn't post on his weblog for a > while, does that mean he's busy working? Apparently not necessarily. http://skzbrust.livejournal.com/7347.html Casey From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jan 27 14:36:36 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:36:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve's weblog In-Reply-To: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Casey Rousseau wrote: > http://skzbrust.livejournal.com/7347.html "I've been going over the copyedit of Dzur for the last couple of days. Terry McGarry, the copyeditor, is amazing. There are no stupid comments." Maybe not entirely complementary to his previous copyeditors. From carpovita at earthlink.net Sun Jan 29 13:20:08 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:20:08 -0700 Subject: Opus Arts Festival Update In-Reply-To: <003301c62391$a6ce5d10$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <001101c62519$c9be9b80$0b00a8c0@Carpovita> Hi everybody! We here at Opus hope that you are all enjoying a happy new year - meanwhile we are gearing up for Opus 2006. First off. A few announcements. --PRE-REGISTRATION DISCOUNT-- THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE FOR THE SPECIAL EARLY BIRD PRE-REGISTRATION RATE OF $29.00! If you have not already taken advantage of the $29 pre-registration rate you need to do so soon. The Opus Pre Registration season ends as of January 31st. So if you are the kind of person that likes to save money, you need to pre-reg now. --OPUS EVENTS- * THE WORLD'S FIRST ELFWOOD MEMBER GATHER Elfwood is the world's largest home to SciFi/Fantasy art and fiction... in the just last year Elfwood has registered over 700,000 hits. Their mission - to provide a place for amateur artists from all over the world to share, teach, and inspire a new generation of dreams." This May they will be celebrating their 10th anniversary - with us at Opus. In honor of their attendance we will be hosting a series of on site art classes, displays, demos, reviews, contests and more. * DRAGAERA FAN SUMMIT If you have not familiarized yourself with Brust's hero assassin witch, Vlad Taltos, you've been missing out. Go out and grab a copy of Jhereg and soon you'll be making regular stops at the bookstore to collect the other dozen books in the series. Then you'll be more than prepared for the Live Action Dragaera World Role playing game, the Assassin game, Dragaera the late night meets and costume contests that will be associated with this event at Opusfest 2006. * AVISTRUM ACADEMY OF SORCERY YEAR TWO This year's school for budding witches and wizards will blow last year's out of the lake. Our ingenious wizarding staff has developed an original American wizarding & witchcraft world for you to come and get lost in. The academy will be housed in the hotel's wonderful Evergreen room-a beautiful multi-sectioned room with high ceiling rafters and wrought iron entry gates--for the entirety of the weekend. * THE 2nd ANNUAL OPUS FREESTYLE SWORD COMPETITION Face other hopefuls in the Opus shanai pit as you and they vie for the cash purse and the glory of knowing that you are the BEST with a blade in Denver (or at least Opus) for the year of 2005. (No lightsabers please) -- OPUS 2006 GUEST LIST -- * ARTISTS - L.A. Williams, Peri Charlifu, Clay Mingues, Jim Humble, Carol Fritz, Michael Georges, Lannie Pihajlic, Tim Kuzniar * WRITERS - Steven Brust, Barb & JC Hendee, Wynette Hoffman, David Summers * BANDS - Voltaire, Caustic Soul, erotic, Born in Winter, Deviant, Raks Benazir, The Brobdingnagian Bards, Pandora Celtica, * NEW HOST HOTEL We have a new host hotel - the Hyatt Tech Center. For Opus in 2006, the Hyatt is offering rooms for $62 a night for two people. You can get your reservations on-line or call their reservations line and tell them you are coming for the Opus Arts Festival. There are a limited number of rooms at this great rate so we suggest you reserve your rooms as soon as possible - as of this date over half of our room block has been reserved. Here's the link to the hotel so you can see all the great things they have waiting for you as well as their contact info. Remote Advertising We happily accept any and all help when it comes to spreading the word about Opus. If you or someone you know would be interested in helping us get advertising in new places let us know. To help out with Opus advertising e-mail Rion at carpovita at earthlink.net. Opus Website - If you want to know what's going on at Opus and get regular updates on special offers make sure you check out our website at www.opusfest.com. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jan 29 09:45:45 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:45:45 +0100 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > K Kuhn wrote: > > >Unless the e'Kieron forebears only bred with their brothers and sisters, > >it seems unlikely that the e'Kieron line would be the only ones with the > >genes, if you assume several generations between Kieron and lab. > > > If that power was passed to Vlad, then an analysis based solely on how > genetic traits are passed doesn't work. Shrug - it's not like our favorite and most esteemed author's books are full of reliable narrators, is it? [1] I'm not sure you can really assume that Aliera's theory of why Vlad can create raw amorphia is necessarily right. Aliera is probably right that only the e'Kieron line of Dragaerans can do it, if only because the odds are good that other Dragon lines and Houses of the Empire have tried doing it - or at least I can't think of a reason why none of the Athyra or Hawks especially would have tried it. I've laid out my reasons why I don't think that Easterners may have tried creating raw amorphia before, and there's always the possibility that 'Taltos' as a surname is a big flaming hint. (Wonder if Sethra knows anything about Easterner history and mythology- a reason for Kiera to take an interest in a young Vlad, who might be considered rather more naive than Noish-pa?) Karen From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 29 18:05:40 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:05:40 EST Subject: Opus Arts Festival Update Message-ID: <241.60182a6.310ece74@aol.com> Hi Rion, Do you want to make an entry on http://dragaera.info/events/ ? Since the Dragaera World Summit is May 19-21, 2006, it is within the 180 days for events. Maybe the info should be put on the wiki city somewhere?? http://dragaera.wikicities.com/ From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Sun Jan 29 19:05:23 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:05:23 EST Subject: International Brust Fan Summit stuff Message-ID: <1e3.4b901bf7.310edc73@aol.com> On Mon Oct 3 10:01:12 Rion Bergquist wrote about Dragaera World Summit in May 19-21, 2006 >Said event will feature, among other things a Dragaeran feast. After much >discussion about the implementation, structure and content of this culinary >adventure Steve and I have come up with an opportunity for all of you. >Rather than Steve or the Directorship of the summit dictating what the feast >will be, we have decided to open it up to you, the fans. >So this is how it works. Between now and February 1st 2006 I will be taking >submit ions for the feast. Said submit ions can be for any part of the >feast from suggestions on food courses to table linens and background music. >Once I have enough suggestions and recipes to define the feast I will open >up the options to this list for a basic democratic vote. >The only request that I make is that all aspects of the feast stay PG and >Dragaera related. I know several of you will be able to not only give me >recipes, but the references to back up the existence of your culinary >creations, and that is exactly what I'd like. So here is another idea for the Dragaeran feast: KRAGAR'S RENTED CONVENTION HALL It should look like a rented convention hall. Maybe with black and gray decorations because, Kragar is a Jhereg. Heh! Here is my text evidence that there are conventions in Dragaera. Kragar speaking to Vlad: "'Everyone?' How Many should I figure on?" "Uh, let me see...five. No, six." "Six? Should I rent a convention hall?" "Scram." The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg, Chapter 16, page 144 Jhereg, Chapter 16, page 201 Maybe a nice sign that says Dragaera World Summit in black and gray with your T-shirt design of a Jhereg on both sides of the words. You see the Empress decided to have a Dragaera World Summit and Kragar was put in charge of renting the Jhereg party convention hall. And of course, all the other houses showed up at the Jhereg party because Kragar had Valabar's do the catering...or maybe it was actually "a man who has cleaned tables at Valabar's" (The Paths of the Dead, paperback, Chapter the Fourteenth, page 125, 126.) From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:08:24 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:08:24 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 1/12/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > > > > Interview #3 (Male Jhereg): > > > > > > I think it was that Dragonlord with the blonde hair that did it. > > > > > > > It occurrs to me that this is the explanation that is most likely to > > propagate. After all, which is more likely - that Aliera e'Kieron; > [...] > > has been messing about with amorphia -- or that some random Easterner > > has spontaneously gained the ability to mess about with amorphia? > > One might ask why Aliera needed to resort to it. It is known that Jhereg sorceresses can and do use Elder Sorcery. So, maybe one of them tried something that resulted in a release of Amorphia when countered. > Also I think this > counter-explanation would lead those who know the truth to insist > more strongly on what they saw. Well, perhaps. > Also an improbable element is often > said to make stories seem more, not less plausible. Finally, if as I > claimed earlier an amorphia-wielding Easterner is a Dragaeran's worst > nightmare, that would add traction to the truth. Yet there is also the possibility that even if they allow that Vlad was responsible for the amorphia, it could be counter-argued that he had probably been using something given to him by Aliera - not necessarily that he had an inherent ability to create the stuff on his own. This especially since he wasn't much of a sorcerer anyway. How would he gain the ability to perform Elder Sorcery on his own? And it certainly would not follow that all (or many) Easterners have the same ability. Easterners have been around the Dragaeran Empire for eons and eons; even if one shows up with this alleged ability, it seems rather likely that it is a fluke (which it actually is), rather than something many Easterners have. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:19:05 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:19:05 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 1/17/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Time travel weirds history. > > > > > > > > > > Is it a given that time travel is in any way involved? > > > > Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and > > future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our > > present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a > > given. > > Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being > conveyed back. Yet why would Marxist ideas be conveyed back however many thousands and thousands of years it is supposed to be? > And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence going on You mean, like some sort of temporal Cycle? An interesting notion; I wonder if it has been thought of before? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 13:21:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:21:32 -0800 Subject: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After reading /The Gypsy/, I was struck by the notion that The Coachman (aka, "Miska") could be responsible for bringing Steven Brust ("The Interviewer" and/or "The Translator") to and from Dragaera. Alternately, he could merely ferry the "Silver Box" or the "Marxist Documents" to Dragaera from our world. Another thought that struck me was how similarly the three "gypsy" brothers seemed in relation to residents of Fenario. ...and how similar The Fair Lady seemed (in many ways) to Verra. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:27:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:27:34 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 1/29/06, K Kuhn wrote: > I've laid out my reasons why I don't think that > Easterners may have tried creating raw amorphia before, and there's > always the possibility that 'Taltos' as a surname is a big flaming hint. I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize that it was witchcraft that he had done). Hm. Probably not, but an interesting thought. And I think it works better than the idea that any Easterner can create chaos. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:30:26 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:30:26 -0800 Subject: Arturo Pérez-Reverte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > from http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/books/26masl.html > You bet we do. He is Capt. Diego Alatriste y Tenorio, the brooding, > charismatic hero of Arturo P?rez-Reverte's wildly successful Spanish > swashbuckling novels. He is profoundly cynical yet quietly principled, > weary of battle yet ready to duel if he must. He is a man of few words but > many melancholy gazes into the void. > He has an iguana, his familiar, on one shoulder. No doubt you threw in that last line to add excitement and local color to the narrative. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:30:44 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43CC4178.6090008@brazee.net> <43CC5837.40100@comcast.net> <43CD84D1.7010102@comcast.net> <43CD9FBB.5010602@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Since the distant past of Dragaera involves stuff from our present and > > > future, and yet the tales of Dragaera are being related in our > > > present, well, I nearly think time travel of *some* sort is indeed a > > > given. > > > > Maybe there's a quibble about "travel" - perhaps only info is being > > conveyed back. > > Yet why would Marxist ideas be conveyed back however many thousands > and thousands of years it is supposed to be? I assume the cache was a normal-causality occurrence - humankind takes flight, settles Dragaera, builds libraries, gets stomped by the J; then eventually a library gets found with its physics and engineering texts decayed but its ancient history of economic thought texts miraculously preserved. Then info about the find is sent against time's arrow into the past. > > > And maybe there's some sort of universal recurrence going on > > You mean, like some sort of temporal Cycle? An interesting notion; I > wonder if it has been thought of before? Just referring to Nietzsche's idea of "eternal recurrence", which involves the exact repetition of all history as the universe is born, dies, and is reborn; but in this case with slight variation due to some sort of magic. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:32:10 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:32:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arturo Pérez-Reverte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > from http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/books/26masl.html > > > You bet we do. He is Capt. Diego Alatriste y Tenorio, the brooding, > > charismatic hero of Arturo P?rez-Reverte's wildly successful Spanish > > swashbuckling novels. He is profoundly cynical yet quietly principled, > > weary of battle yet ready to duel if he must. He is a man of few words but > > many melancholy gazes into the void. > > > He has an iguana, his familiar, on one shoulder. > > No doubt you threw in that last line to add excitement and local color > to the narrative. Even Paarfi nods. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:38:43 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:38:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: <06a701c61afd$be359af0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43D3DD85.7CB4@ecity.net> <43D4D168.7090808@brazee.net> <43DCFF47.27D5@ecity.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up > until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and > desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize > that it was witchcraft that he had done). Hm. Probably not, but an > interesting thought. And I think it works better than the idea that > any Easterner can create chaos. Presumably it wouldn't be _any_ E, but those with the right genes/soul/whatever. The Empire might think there's no reason a priori to conclude that the right combo couldn't arise in some Eastern population, in which case it would be a good idea to suppress V and his relatives. Or that some E pop might find some other way of harnessing the power, e.g. witchcraft, in which case it would be a good idea to hunt down everyone V knows. So, sure, why couldn't witchcraft put one on a friendly footing with amorphia? Maybe that's the point of Morollan having training in it. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:43:47 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:43:47 -0800 Subject: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > After reading /The Gypsy/, I was struck by the notion that The Coachman > (aka, "Miska") could be responsible for bringing Steven Brust ("The > Interviewer" and/or "The Translator") to and from Dragaera. > > Alternately, he could merely ferry the "Silver Box" or the "Marxist > Documents" to Dragaera from our world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thought that struck me was how similarly the three "gypsy" > brothers seemed in relation to residents of Fenario. > > ...and how similar The Fair Lady seemed (in many ways) to Verra. > Or rather, to the Demon Goddess of /Brokedown Palace/, I think. If you ever read /The Wizard of the Pigeons/ (by Megan Lindholm, solo), you may see similarities of /The Gypsy/ to that work as well. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 13:44:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:44:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43C6EFE5.80705@comcast.net> <43C6FCCD.1070209@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/25/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> [stuff arguing that there's reason to think that Vlad's >> use of amorphia in _J_ should have set off violent alarm] >> [back and forth] > Well, perhaps. Ok, I think there are plausible arguments on either side. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 13:46:27 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:46:27 -0800 Subject: Reasons for Easterner Primitivity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 01:30 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really* knowabout Kragar?) >On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> Yet why would Marxist ideas be conveyed back however many thousands >> and thousands of years it is supposed to be? > >I assume the cache was a normal-causality occurrence - humankind takes >flight, settles Dragaera, builds libraries, gets stomped by the J; >then eventually a library gets found with its physics and engineering >texts decayed but its ancient history of economic thought texts >miraculously preserved. Then info about the find is sent against >time's arrow into the past. This touches on my original reason for bringing up High-Tech vs Sorcery... And why the Easterners we've seen all seem to be late medieval/early renaissance level of tech--and never seem to have advanced any further. Since it seems likely to me that what happened was that the Easterners had high-tech, then got smacked down. Whether this was by the gods, the Jenoine, the Empire, or "other". (Davdi just did a great speculative write-up on this line of thinking on the wikicity. http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Easterner) >> You mean, like some sort of temporal Cycle? An interesting notion; I >> wonder if it has been thought of before? > >Just referring to Nietzsche's idea of "eternal recurrence", which involves >the exact repetition of all history as the universe is born, dies, and is >reborn; but in this case with slight variation due to some sort of magic. All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again... Majikjon --Really liking the new Battlestar Galactica series. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 13:52:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:52:43 -0800 Subject: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 01:43 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Miska, the Coachman to Dragaera? (Observations/Spoilers from "The Gypsy") >On 1/30/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> After reading /The Gypsy/, I was struck by the notion that The Coachman >> (aka, "Miska") could be responsible for bringing Steven Brust ("The >> Interviewer" and/or "The Translator") to and from Dragaera. >> >> Alternately, he could merely ferry the "Silver Box" or the "Marxist >> Documents" to Dragaera from our world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Another thought that struck me was how similarly the three "gypsy" >> brothers seemed in relation to residents of Fenario. >> >> ...and how similar The Fair Lady seemed (in many ways) to Verra. > > >Or rather, to the Demon Goddess of /Brokedown Palace/, I think. > >If you ever read /The Wizard of the Pigeons/ (by Megan Lindholm, >solo), you may see similarities of /The Gypsy/ to that work as well. Thanks for the recommendation. I will have to check that out soon, seeing as I've only got two more of Steve's books left to read (Sun/Moon/Stars, and Freedom & Neccessity). Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 14:16:53 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:16:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reasons for Easterner Primitivity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > And why the Easterners we've seen all seem to be late medieval/early > renaissance level of tech--and never seem to have advanced any further. > > Since it seems likely to me that what happened was that the Easterners had > high-tech, then got smacked down. Whether this was by the gods, the > Jenoine, the Empire, or "other". (Davdi just did a great speculative > write-up on this line of thinking on the wikicity. > http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Easterner) There was a long long discussion of this on the list, considering everything from the Cycle to the gods to recurrent Imperial intervention to the effect of demonstrable magic on would-be physicists and engineers. (Note the similar issue for the Islands and for the Empire itself). None of these explanations (except for the Cycle) was entirely satisfactory to me, given the timespan, but another (I think) discussed at the time can't be argued with: SKZB likes it that way so deal. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 30 14:41:09 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:41:09 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up > until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and > desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize > that it was witchcraft that he had done). Two arguments against: 1) Witchcraft doesn't work like that. Every witchcraft spell we've witnessed was one that took a great deal of preparation and had a substantial buildup to a climax wherein the spell was released and imposed its effects on the world. "Instant on" is a hallmark of sorcery. Besides, it seems highly unlikely that Vlad could do anything with Witchcraft and not realize how he was accomplishing it. 2) Dragaerans were derived from Easterners (Terrans) and they are able to learn and perform witchcraft just as Easterners can. If every Easterner can do it then by extension every Dragaeran can do it and Aliera is wrong about it being specific to the e'Kieron line. With his background, Morollan likely takes witchcraft more seriously than the average Dragearan but he's not the first Dragaeran to study it. If it could produce anything like Vlad's ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran sorcerous society a reason to give it serious study instead of look down on it for its limitations versus the mechanical style of Orb-based sorcery. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jan 30 14:42:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:42:52 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 02:41 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) >> I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up >> until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and >> desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize >> that it was witchcraft that he had done). > >Two arguments against: > >1) Witchcraft doesn't work like that. Every witchcraft spell we've witnessed >was one that took a great deal of preparation and had a substantial buildup >to a climax wherein the spell was released and imposed its effects on the >world. "Instant on" is a hallmark of sorcery. Besides, it seems highly >unlikely that Vlad could do anything with Witchcraft and not realize how he >was accomplishing it. > >2) Dragaerans were derived from Easterners (Terrans) and they are able to >learn and perform witchcraft just as Easterners can. If every Easterner can >do it then by extension every Dragaeran can do it and Aliera is wrong about >it being specific to the e'Kieron line. With his background, Morollan likely >takes witchcraft more seriously than the average Dragearan but he's not the >first Dragaeran to study it. If it could produce anything like Vlad's >ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran >sorcerous society a reason to give it serious study instead of look down on >it for its limitations versus the mechanical style of Orb-based sorcery. 3) If witchcraft were capable of creating amorphia, it would have probably been banned many cycles ago, as chaos stones were. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 15:16:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:16:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > I wonder if perhaps witchcraft can be used to create amorphia? But up > > until Vlad, no witch had been knowledgeable of the possibility, and > > desperate and stupid enough to try it (and Vlad just didn't realize > > that it was witchcraft that he had done). > > Two arguments against: > > 1) Witchcraft doesn't work like that. Every witchcraft spell we've witnessed > was one that took a great deal of preparation and had a substantial buildup > to a climax wherein the spell was released and imposed its effects on the > world. "Instant on" is a hallmark of sorcery. Besides, it seems highly > unlikely that Vlad could do anything with Witchcraft and not realize how he > was accomplishing it. Vlad ought perhaps to be aware of having used witchcraft, but he certainly has no sense of how a new spell works, judging from _Taltos_ and _J_. And the circumstances weren't conducive to self-awareness and reflection. In _J_ V surely went the normal gene/soul route - but for all we know, that route might be a shortcut to the relevant witchcraftery. > 2) Dragaerans were derived from Easterners (Terrans) and they are able to > learn and perform witchcraft just as Easterners can. If every Easterner can > do it then by extension every Dragaeran can do it and Aliera is wrong about > it being specific to the e'Kieron line. Aliera wouldn't know that the e'K line has a witchcraft shortcut. Maybe the shortcut is 100% necessary, but maybe only 95%, or maybe not at all, given the right knowledge. > With his background, Morollan likely > takes witchcraft more seriously than the average Dragearan but he's not the > first Dragaeran to study it. Sethra hasn't. Noish-pa is v. surprised to meet a Dragaeran witch. > If it could produce anything like Vlad's > ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran > sorcerous society a reason to silently suppress it lest the Easterners hear about it. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Mon Jan 30 15:27:04 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:27:04 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the talk about the e'Kieron line being the only line to be able to create amorphia does have one backing i haven't heard anyone bring up, but it is sort of flimsy. in Yendi it was mentioned that Norathar was found to be the product of 2 dragons, with e'Lanya dominant. the fact that e'Lanya is dominant should mean something, shouldn't it? Morrolan is a part of the e'Kieron line, but he's not e'Kieron dominant, so he wouldn't be able to create raw amorphia. thats my take on it, but I haven't brought it up because of one flaw: how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jan 30 15:49:10 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:49:10 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > If it could produce anything like Vlad's > > ability then it ought to be well known and, in fact, it > would give Dragaeran > > sorcerous society a reason > > to silently suppress it lest the Easterners hear about it. If it was witchcraft based then they wouldn't need to supress it from the Easterners. Your average Athyra sorceror/wizard would be the one you'd have to worry about. Witchraft isn't exclusive to Easterners by nature, only by culture. The Empire has its own brand of magic that is clearly (in their minds) superior. Studying Witchcraft is rather like a doctor in the States studyng Hungarian folk medicine. As illustrated in Tekla, some people don't believe in it at all, and those (like our protagonists and their associates) who have experienced it first hand are still convinced that sorcery is superior. Anything an Eastern Witch can do is something that a Dragaeran sorceror can do, given the proper training. If they don't bother it's because they see no value in it. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 16:13:47 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:13:47 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> On 1/30/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > Anything an Eastern Witch can do is something that a Dragaeran sorceror can > do, given the proper training. I think this is an overstatement. I recall from /Taltos/ that sorcery was implied to be insufficient for planting thoughts in others' minds. Also recall Vlad's sensory extension in /Orca/, which is nothing like what we've ever seen sorcerors perform. Although, perhaps you are merely implying that the Dragaeran sorcerer would do it by taking up witchcraft? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jan 30 16:20:34 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:20:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > If it could produce anything like Vlad's ability then it ought to be > > > well known and, in fact, it would give Dragaeran sorcerous society a > > > reason > > > > to silently suppress it lest the Easterners hear about it. > > If it was witchcraft based then they wouldn't need to supress it from the > Easterners. Your average Athyra sorceror/wizard would be the one you'd have > to worry about. I don't follow you at all. The Athyra have access to ES via the purple stones. The Easterners are an oppressed group with essentially no other access to firepower at that level. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 16:58:14 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:58:14 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/30/06, S. Hall wrote: > the talk about the e'Kieron line being the only line to be able to create > amorphia does have one backing i haven't heard anyone bring up, but it is > sort of flimsy. > > in Yendi it was mentioned that Norathar was found to be the product of 2 > dragons, with e'Lanya dominant. the fact that e'Lanya is dominant should > mean something, shouldn't it? Morrolan is a part of the e'Kieron line, but > he's not e'Kieron dominant, so he wouldn't be able to create raw amorphia. > thats my take on it, but I haven't brought it up because of one flaw: > > how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then > what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong > "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ > Well, that would explain *exactly* why genescanning is used among Dragons. See also the quote I posted about the Dragon who "thought" that he took more after his e'Terics father than his e'Drien mother. If he was uncertain, he could just have himself genescanned. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 17:01:13 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:01:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> References: <0bb201c625f7$c40a7f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 1/30/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Anything an Eastern Witch can do is something that a Dragaeran sorceror can > > do, given the proper training. > > I think this is an overstatement. I recall from /Taltos/ that sorcery > was implied to be insufficient for planting thoughts in others' minds. > Also recall Vlad's sensory extension in /Orca/, which is nothing like > what we've ever seen sorcerors perform. Also, witchcraft works in locations that sorcery doesn't, including the Shore of the Cycle (which I would assume is part of the Halls of Judgement), and the Jenoine world. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon Jan 30 19:52:09 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:52:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Aliera could have gotten her Amorphia creation ability the same way Vlad > did, tho, since her soul is a reincarnation of Keiron's other brother. > Or maybe she inherited the ability from her mother? As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The bloodline, according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. And that, I think, is enough to explain why Morrolan (as far as we've seen) doesn't have it. He's interested in Elder Sorcery, sure, but he's been working on (obsessed with!) other things as well. Mark A. Mandel http://www.cracksandshards.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jan 30 20:09:15 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:09:15 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS > with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The bloodline, according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. > On the other hand, for a Dragaeran, spending 50-100 years learning something is hardly time to scratch the surface. Casey From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 01:49:33 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:49:33 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is probably tied to certain genes that not only determine who you are descended from but possibly also who can create amorphia (e'Kieron). On 1/30/06, S. Hall wrote: > > the talk about the e'Kieron line being the only line to be able to create > amorphia does have one backing i haven't heard anyone bring up, but it is > sort of flimsy. > > in Yendi it was mentioned that Norathar was found to be the product of 2 > dragons, with e'Lanya dominant. the fact that e'Lanya is dominant should > mean something, shouldn't it? Morrolan is a part of the e'Kieron line, but > he's not e'Kieron dominant, so he wouldn't be able to create raw amorphia. > thats my take on it, but I haven't brought it up because of one flaw: > > how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then > what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong > "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 06:17:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:17:17 -0800 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 04:58 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) >On 1/30/06, S. Hall wrote: >> how in the hell do you tell which becomes dominant? the male parent? then >> what about the lines that follow the females? can you be given the wrong >> "surname" for lack of a better term? it's all quite a mess, really :/ >> > >Well, that would explain *exactly* why genescanning is used among Dragons. > >See also the quote I posted about the Dragon who "thought" that he >took more after his e'Terics father than his e'Drien mother. If he >was uncertain, he could just have himself genescanned. Do we have any clues as to when performing genescans became common? Certainly they were already in use during Tortaalik's reign, since one was used on Norathar at that time. But is this one of those things that stretches back into antiquity, or is genescanning a relatively recent innovation? (like within the last cycle or two?) And if it is comparitively recent, how did the Dragon lineages work before it was developed? Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 06:26:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:26:16 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060131035209.74437.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" 01/30/06 07:52 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com, Dragaera list cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >--- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Aliera could have gotten her Amorphia creation ability the same way Vlad >> did, tho, since her soul is a reincarnation of Keiron's other brother. >> Or maybe she inherited the ability from her mother? > >As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS >with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 >years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The bloodline, >according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. Hmm... I wonder if Vlad being an Easterner is why he didn't seem to need any training to pull this off the first time? Granted, it was an out-of-control spell, and would have destroyed him (and many others) if Aliera hadn't been there to save the day, but just the fact that he succeeded on his first attempt seems unusual, given this explanation. Or maybe it was the fact that Dolivar used Elder Sorcery (perhaps this is why he was kicked out of the Dragon House?) and Vlad was somehow tapping into his latent memories? >And that, I think, is enough to explain why Morrolan (as far as we've >seen) doesn't have it. He's interested in Elder Sorcery, sure, but he's >been working on (obsessed with!) other things as well. We don't really know what kinds of mischief Morrolan gets into in his free time. (Which is pretty much always, come to think of it.) He may be filling massive storage rooms in Castle Black full of chaos stones or something. What was he doing during the events of /Teckla/ for example? I think he gets mentioned once in that book. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 06:42:01 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:42:01 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: Casey Rousseau Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/30/06 08:09 PM To Dragaera list cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> As I recall, when Vlad asks Aliera how she got the ability, she STARTS >> with the bloodline/genes, and then adds something about spending 50 or 100 years or so working on the talent. It's not automatic. The >bloodline, according to Aliera, is necessary but not sufficient. >> >On the other hand, for a Dragaeran, spending 50-100 years learning >something is hardly time to scratch the surface. My feeling is that this depends a great deal on the topic being studied. I've given this particular topic a lot of consideration. (Mostly in developing the Terics Academy) How long do Dragaerans study a subject? What is their equivilent to a 4-year university course? Given that a Dragaeran's lifespan (3000 years plus or minus) is on the order of 38 times longer than ours, a simple proportional adjustment would work out to around 150 years or so. However, there's only so much information to learn on any given subject. Does it really take three decades to finish the equivilent of "College Writing 101"? My answer (for matters of military theory and tactics, anyway) was that seventeen years of intensive study would be sufficient time to grasp the subject. Of course, one might well ask (and I have) why it takes Dragaerans so long to study things? I can only conclude that the same factors that give Dragaerans a long lifespan also result in them being very slow learners, at least by our standards. (How old was Savn? 80? 90? And he still needed his hand held to perform basic medicine, after studying it for decades?) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 31 07:26:17 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:26:17 -0700 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Do we have any clues as to when performing genescans became common? > >Certainly they were already in use during Tortaalik's reign, since one was >used on Norathar at that time. > >But is this one of those things that stretches back into antiquity, or is >genescanning a relatively recent innovation? (like within the last cycle >or two?) > >And if it is comparitively recent, how did the Dragon lineages work before >it was developed? > > > How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some characteristics get passed via reincarnation? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 31 07:43:37 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:43:37 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) References: <044201c625ee$441d8fb0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: "'Dragaera List'" Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: RE: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad *really*knowabout Kragar?) > > > Noish-pa is v. surprised to meet a Dragaeran witch. > How many Dragons do you know? From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 31 08:04:54 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:04:54 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Although, perhaps you are > merely implying that the Dragaeran sorcerer would do it by taking up > witchcraft? > Yes, that's it exactly. The theory being proposed was that Witchcraft could be used to create amorphia, and that this was a reason to supress the knowledge because South Adrilankha (not to mention the East) would be full of walking time bombs. My point was that any sorceror can learn Witchcraft. The fact that they don't is indicative of the fact that they find nothing useful about doing so. Summoning amorphia would be, if not useful, at least something significant enough to learn the ability. In other words, the people you'd need to guard against wouldn't be the ignorant oppressed Easterners living in your slums or the supersitious Easterners halfway 'round the world who had never even heard of amorphia. It'd be your local sorcerors who might have the ability (or the temerity at least) to try and use an amorphia summoning spell to further their own agendas. If it can be done with Witchcraft then, by definition, it is NOT an Easterner only ability. Dragaerans can perform Witchcraft just as effectively as an Easterner, assuming that our hypothetical Dragaeran has had the proper training. Since we know that only Dragaerans of a certain lineage are able to do this trick, we know by inference that it is NOT a witchcraft-based ability. Therefore, there's no reason to supress the information in order to prevent Easterners from hearing about it. In fact, it sounds rare enough in Dragaerans that I'd imagine that your average Dragaeran sorcer doesn't even know about it except as possibly a theoretical concept. From st.shafer at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 12:28:17 2006 From: st.shafer at gmail.com (Stephen Shafer) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:28:17 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow for the control of amophia.) From howard at brazee.net Tue Jan 31 12:43:13 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:43:13 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) In-Reply-To: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0601301613t74a0a6a6s6ee571d4bc769677@mail.gmail.com> <0b3a01c62680$134cfdc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43DFCBE1.6060507@brazee.net> Stephen Shafer wrote: >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow for >the control of amophia.) > > > Why not? If nothing else it can be a doomsday weapon. But when learning their craft, they don't know how dangerous nor how useful amorphia can be. From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Jan 31 12:53:45 2006 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:53:45 -0500 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> References: Message-ID: <43DF8809.18162.14EFDC0@localhost> On 31 Jan 2006 at 8:26, Howard Brazee wrote > How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in > our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some > characteristics get passed via reincarnation? > _______________________________________________ Dragaera mailing list > Dragaera at dragaera.info http://dragaera.info, Doesn't Aliera refer to a genescan as "mind-probing a finger"? Although I am not a geneticist, I don't believe that's how it's done here ;-) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Jan 31 12:52:31 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:17:17 PST." Message-ID: <200601312052.k0VKqW8J000565@vice-grips.mit.edu> > > Do we have any clues as to when performing genescans became common? > > Certainly they were already in use during Tortaalik's reign, since one was > used on Norathar at that time. > > But is this one of those things that stretches back into antiquity, or is > genescanning a relatively recent innovation? (like within the last cycle > or two?) > > And if it is comparitively recent, how did the Dragon lineages work before > it was developed? > > Majikjon > I don't think that genescans are what would be considered common. The scan on Norathar was a special case, performed by the Sethra the Younger as part of an official inquiry. It wasn't performed casually, and I imagine is not something that can typically be done easily. So, while Dragaerans have the ability to do genescans, I'm guessing that, much like our own paternity tests, they're not performed that often. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jan 31 13:10:00 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:10:00 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowaboutKragar?) In-Reply-To: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <019d01c626aa$b2468660$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she > could? (since > witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, > does it allow for > the control of amophia.) No reason that I can think of. The whole discussion came about, I think, as speculation about how the ability could be something other than "genetic" and also, to some extent, born out of some questionable (to my mind) rationalizations about why Witchcraft (and by extension, Easterners) is "better or more special" than Sorcery (and by extension, Dragaerans). Ultimately, of course, the answer is "Because Steve thought it was Cool." For those in the audience unfamiliar with the Cool Theory of Literature, check out this interview with Steve: http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20030203/brust.shtml It's one of his wittier interviews. ;-) From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 13:29:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:29:33 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Stephen Shafer Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/31/06 12:28 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad (was Re: How much does Vlad*really*knowabout Kragar?) >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow for >the control of amophia.) Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? I can think of two offhand... Majikjon Of course, I don't subscribe to the theory that this is even possible, so the point is kind of moot. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jan 31 13:44:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:44:57 -0800 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 01/31/06 07:26 AM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! >How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in >our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some >characteristics get passed via reincarnation? Hmm... What *does* genescan mean in *our* world? Is that like when you go to the checkout line at The Gap? Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 14:46:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:46:43 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > >for the control of amophia.) > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her response of "We shall see" when one of the other Gods (K?urana, I see from search-inside) points out that Morrolan does not have the "bloodlines to use such powers fully". That is, not that he somehow is secretly an e'Kieron, but that witchcraft combined with Elder Sorcery can do the tricks that ordinarily the "proper bloodlines" would require. Hm. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 14:49:25 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:49:25 -0800 Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: References: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > >How do they genescan Phoenix? Does "genescan" mean what it does in > >our world, or does it mean something different in a world where some > >characteristics get passed via reincarnation? > > Hmm... What *does* genescan mean in *our* world? Is that like when you go > to the checkout line at The Gap? > *Snort*. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 14:50:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > > >for the control of amophia.) > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her > response of "We shall see" Noted earlier in the discussion, I think... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 14:58:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:58:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: e'Kierons and Genescans and Dragons, oh my! In-Reply-To: References: <43DF8199.8050306@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test My wife and I are having our first child, and just got past the nerve-wracking genetics tests older couples get subjected to. Gattacca ahoy. No doubt Dragaerans will have to consider eugenics-related questions themselves, even if their genomes have been scrubbed of nasty hereditary diseases. Is your fetus really a Phoenix or just a cuckoo? From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 15:11:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:11:56 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > > > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > > > >for the control of amophia.) > > > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her > > response of "We shall see" > > Noted earlier in the discussion, I think... It is true that your noting is why I had it in mind to connect to the witch+elder sorceror idea. However, you did not expand upon merely noting it. But credit where due: "Based upon an observation made by Philip Hart". From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 15:24:51 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:24:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <77369c850601311228g4774416fw117c9eb2b0aaf17c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/31/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? (since > > > > >witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, does it allow > > > > >for the control of amophia.) > > > > > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > > > > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant by her > > > response of "We shall see" > > > > Noted earlier in the discussion, I think... > > It is true that your noting is why I had it in mind to connect to the > witch+elder sorceror idea. However, you did not expand upon merely > noting it. But credit where due: > > "Based upon an observation made by Philip Hart". One more such credit and I am ruined. Once I expanded, but now my function here is just to note. Oh, and to disagree. From shawnb at stanford.edu Tue Jan 31 15:34:07 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:34:07 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:47 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? > > >(since witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, > > >does it allow for the control of amophia.) > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant > by her response of "We shall see" when one of the other Gods > (K?urana, I see from search-inside) points out that Morrolan > does not have the "bloodlines to use such powers fully". > That is, not that he somehow is secretly an e'Kieron, but > that witchcraft combined with Elder Sorcery can do the tricks > that ordinarily the "proper bloodlines" > would require. > > Hm. Or that Verra knew about the infusion of her blood Morrolan was going to receive in the future, and that her blood is either similar to or identical with the e'Kieron bloodline so that it will enable its bearers to use such powers fully. Shawn From kknolte at ecity.net Tue Jan 31 10:02:28 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:02:28 +0100 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) References: <00db01c622a3$6e1b3bd0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <43DFA632.2AFC@ecity.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: > > Majikjon writ: > > > This does bring up the point of how we should handle spoilers > > for "Klava with Honey", and /Dzur/? > > > > Since I wasn't around here when /Sethra Lavode/ first came out > >, I'm unfamiliar with the standard spoiler warning practices. > > There's no one true standard. There are many here, who, in addition to the > Subject alert you added, would add spoiler space to the body of their > message. MV Would a weird thought that tangentially reveals something need spoilers? For instance, for those who've read Klava with Honey S P O I L E R I read the introduction of the new character, and started wondering if SKZB was planning a Monty Python joke that he'd laid the groundwork for years ago, to wit, the possibility of the following reply as to how he knew Sethra "She turned me into a teckla" "A teckla?" "I got better." (Presumably we are not going to find out that Sethra weighs as much as a duck, and that's how everyone found out she was undead, nor that there's a Serioli town called Antioch that specializes in Morganti hand grenades.) Anyway, opinions on whether that would need spoiler protection? Karen S P O I L E R From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Feb 1 07:32:39 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:32:39 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: <43DFA632.2AFC@ecity.net> Message-ID: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Actually, Steve isn't setting up that joke because he's already used it. I forget the exact circumstances now (probably when Vlad is going to meet Sethra for the first time in _Taltos_) but Vlad is asked "What if she turns you into a newt?" and he replies "I'll get better." Cracks and Shards, Mark Mandel's Dragaera site, has a jokes and allusions page that should list it and many others. http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/jokes.html From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 1 10:17:23 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:17:23 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? Message-ID: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> I just ordered *_Anti-Duhring: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in Science_. *And I have so much fiction in my in-basket! But if Steve says Engels is worth reading, I'll give it a try. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:32:53 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:32:53 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? References: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:17 AM Subject: What's a Duhring? > I just ordered *_Anti-Duhring: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in > Science_. *And I have so much fiction in my in-basket! > > But if Steve says Engels is worth reading, I'll give it a try. Maybe it is a webring of confused people? The Duh Ring? I think I still have a copy floating around somewhere, from my Poly Sci days in college. Jeff -Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just leave me alone" style of self government. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 10:42:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 10:42:43 -0800 Subject: What's a Duhring? In-Reply-To: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 10:17 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject What's a Duhring? >I just ordered *_Anti-Duhring: Herr Eugen Duhring's Revolution in >Science_. *And I have so much fiction in my in-basket! > >But if Steve says Engels is worth reading, I'll give it a try. If you get impatient to start reading it, I found what appears to be the entire text online here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ Looks like good stuff. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 1 10:43:24 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:43:24 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? In-Reply-To: References: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43E1014C.1010407@brazee.net> > >Jeff >-Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just >leave me alone" style of self government. > > It's nice to read Dumas to make my enjoyment of on-topic books more complete. And while I expect this won't be as applicable as _/*History of the Russian Revolution*/_, I expect there might be some relationship. The trick to enjoying politics is to control how personal it gets. The more of an intellectual pastime it is, the easier this is. ____ From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:55:31 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:55:31 -0700 Subject: What's a Duhring? References: <43E0FB33.8090006@brazee.net> <43E1014C.1010407@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: What's a Duhring? > > > > >Jeff > >-Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just > >leave me alone" style of self government. > > > > > > It's nice to read Dumas to make my enjoyment of on-topic books more > complete. And while I expect this won't be as applicable as _/*History > of the Russian Revolution*/_, I expect there might be some relationship. > > The trick to enjoying politics is to control how personal it gets. The > more of an intellectual pastime it is, the easier this is. > ____ > > I think I have that one as well. My poli sci teacher was a refugee from Russia. You are correct about the "trick" of politics, but like religion most take it very personally even if they have no understanding of it's fundamentals. I just find politics to depressing, the failure of ideals when applied in real life does that to me. Jeff -Has found a copy of Anti Durhing on the web, and is reading it as well. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ From ike at manor.org Wed Feb 1 11:34:10 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 14:34:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > Actually, Steve isn't setting up that joke because he's already used it. I > forget the exact circumstances now (probably when Vlad is going to meet > Sethra for the first time in _Taltos_) but Vlad is asked "What if she turns > you into a newt?" and he replies "I'll get better." Memory tells me it's an exchange between Vlad and either Kragar or Liosh before heading over to Dzur mountain for the first time, but memory's lied to me in the past... From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 11:46:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:46:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> References: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock > > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 2:47 PM > > To: Dragaera List > > Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad > > > > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > Stephen Shafer wrote: > > > > > > > >Why would a witch want to create amorphia even if he or she could? > > > >(since witchcraft does not use the stuff, nor, as far as we know, > > > >does it allow for the control of amophia.) > > > > > > Maybe if that witch happened to also *be* an elder sorcerer? > > > > > > > Sudden pararectal notion: Perhaps that is what Verra meant > > by her response of "We shall see" when one of the other Gods > > (K?urana, I see from search-inside) points out that Morrolan > > does not have the "bloodlines to use such powers fully". > > That is, not that he somehow is secretly an e'Kieron, but > > that witchcraft combined with Elder Sorcery can do the tricks > > that ordinarily the "proper bloodlines" > > would require. > > > > Hm. > > Or that Verra knew about the infusion of her blood Morrolan was going to > receive in the future, and that her blood is either similar to or identical > with the e'Kieron bloodline so that it will enable its bearers to use such > powers fully. > Ah, but there is also the point that the infusion was possible *because* Morrolan is also a witch. Aliera couldn't have done it because she was not a witch, and Vlad was too exhausted from the process of just getting the bottle. Changing the discussion to a somewhat meta-mode, I have recently read Teresa Neilsen Hayden's comments on story efficiency: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/007172.html (and the original essay she is commenting on:) http://www.kith.org/journals/jed/2006/01/09/3317.html And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to leave the Paths without dying." I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by Verra). Oh, well. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:01:34 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:01:34 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: References: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Ike Porter wrote: > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > Actually, Steve isn't setting up that joke because he's already used it. I > > forget the exact circumstances now (probably when Vlad is going to meet > > Sethra for the first time in _Taltos_) but Vlad is asked "What if she turns > > you into a newt?" and he replies "I'll get better." > > Memory tells me it's an exchange between Vlad and either Kragar or Liosh > before heading over to Dzur mountain for the first time, but memory's lied > to me in the past... There *are* memory aids out there, including dragaera.info's Book search and Amazon.com's search inside. Thus we can discover, since the word "newt" only occurs twice in the books indexed by Book search, that the book was /Yendi/, and further, that the exchange occurred in chapter 16. Morrolan asks the question, and the previous occurrence of the word "newt" was a threat being made to Vlad in Morrolan's hearing (/She looked back at me and smiled sweetly. "How would you," she said, "like to be a newt?/, (Yendi ch1)). While dragaera.info book search does not disclose enough text to identify the speaker, Amazon.com's search inside allows you to view the entire page, and one can thus see that the speaker, as one would indeed suspect given that this occurs in /Yendi/, is none other than the Sorceress in Green. QED From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 1 12:08:55 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: References: <0c2d01c62744$bc42ed80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > There *are* memory aids out there, including dragaera.info's Book > search When's that getting expanded, btw? > and Amazon.com's search inside. The other day when I cited V on M re ES, I used amazon search to find the quote, and I meant to thank Davdi for the pointer, which I now do belatedly. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 1 12:15:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:15:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather > roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, > instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make > a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to > leave the Paths without dying." > > I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood > not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if > you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal > to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by > Verra). Oh, well. I don't understand "additional" above. Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 12:17:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:17:32 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:08 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> There *are* memory aids out there, including dragaera.info's Book >> search > >When's that getting expanded, btw? > >> and Amazon.com's search inside. > >The other day when I cited V on M re ES, I used amazon search to find >the quote, and I meant to thank Davdi for the pointer, which I now do >belatedly. Search Inside is a wonderful thing. The only minor gripe I have with it is that the OCR software they used seems to have trouble with apostrophes; which wreaks havoc with the names of Dragon lineages. "e7rics" for example, instead of "e'Terics". This made it more difficult to track down names for the Dramatis Personae page on the wikicity. On the plus side, it does, at least, have text for almost all the Dragaera books (except for BP, unfortunately). Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Feb 1 12:19:45 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:19:45 -0800 Subject: Meta: Spoiler Handling (was RE: Pel's Fate? *Dzur Spoilers*) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <027701c6276c$d935f0e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Memory tells me it's an exchange between Vlad and either > Kragar or Liosh > before heading over to Dzur mountain for the first time, but > memory's lied > to me in the past... That's what I thought also but after actually reading the jokes and allusions page, it turns out it had something to do with Morollan and Vlad sharing a giggle over Vlad antagonizing the Sorceress in Green in Yendi. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 12:20:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:20:12 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:15 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather >> roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, >> instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make >> a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to >> leave the Paths without dying." > >I don't understand "additional" above. > >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally >semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. I believe this came up in another thread recently... Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 1 12:24:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > > > >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > >semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. > > There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that > Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. Not I think relevant - V could have whapped Her forehead and said, D'oh, that's why I had that intuition, now I have to cut Myself again. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 12:30:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:30:19 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:24 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Philip Hart >> > >> >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange >> >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally >> >semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. >> >> There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that >> Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. > >Not I think relevant - V could have whapped Her forehead and said, D'oh, >that's why I had that intuition, now I have to cut Myself again. This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a blood transfusion to Morrolan would work. This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:43:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:43:27 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200601312334.k0VNY71j014497@smtp2.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather > > roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, > > instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make > > a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to > > leave the Paths without dying." > > > > I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood > > not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if > > you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal > > to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by > > Verra). Oh, well. > > I don't understand "additional" above. I was trying to refer, elliptically, to the political/psychological handwave you refer to below. I probably should have worded it better. > Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. Yes, but I was thinking that the Shore where the Cycle was seemed to be private, or at least, not often visited by the Gods. So Verra could theoretically have done the deed there. Perhaps. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:51:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:51:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > >> Philip Hart > >> > > >> >Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > >> >in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > >> >semi-public? > >> >Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. > >> > >> There's also Kiera's comment in /Orca/ where she explains to Vlad that > >> Verra didn't really know why he needed the vial in the first place. > > > >Not I think relevant - V could have whapped Her forehead and said, D'oh, > >that's why I had that intuition, now I have to cut Myself again. > > This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a blood > transfusion to Morrolan would work. > > This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. > > She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. > Perhaps. Yet Vlad got the idea of the blood transfusion from Verra's remarks that at least part of being a god was in the blood (Indeed, citing specifically: "My blood is the blood of a god. It is for this reason that the Halls of judgment cannot hold me.") Although there is also Aliera's similar statement about her own blood, I see. Was Verra truly not hinting to Vlad the direction he should be thinking? Who can say? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 1 13:43:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:43:18 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:51 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: >> This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a blood >> transfusion to Morrolan would work. >> >> This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. >> >> She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. >> > >Perhaps. Yet Vlad got the idea of the blood transfusion from Verra's >remarks that at least part of being a god was in the blood (Indeed, >citing specifically: "My blood is the blood of a god. It is for this >reason that the Halls of judgment cannot hold me.") Although there is >also Aliera's similar statement about her own blood, I see. > >Was Verra truly not hinting to Vlad the direction he should be thinking? I don't there's any question he was inferring this from her comments, but was she deliberately implying this by making them? I honestly don't think we have enough clues to determine her exact intentions. >Who can say? Of course, it's also possible that the entire "Verra-has-special-plans-for-Morrolan" angle is simply Paarfi propoganda. In the two instances where *Vlad* has witnessed Verra meeting Morrolan (in /Taltos/ and /Issola/), there seemingly hasn't been any special kind of connection there. (At least not that he has commented on.) This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or Paarfi? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 1 15:17:58 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:17:58 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E141A6.6090209@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Of course, it's also possible that the entire >"Verra-has-special-plans-for-Morrolan" angle is simply Paarfi propoganda. >In the two instances where *Vlad* has witnessed Verra meeting Morrolan (in >/Taltos/ and /Issola/), there seemingly hasn't been any special kind of >connection there. (At least not that he has commented on.) > >This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or >Paarfi? > > > Well, let's assume that Morrolan is needed - to prepare Vlad for whatever. Paarfi would certainly want to push Morrolan's role and discount Vlad's role in his own mind - and in his writings. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 2 06:15:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:15:03 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/01/06 12:15 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Well, let's assume that Morrolan is needed - to prepare Vlad for >whatever. Paarfi would certainly want to push Morrolan's role and >discount Vlad's role in his own mind - and in his writings. That brings to mind a question I've had since reading /Issola/... How will Dragaerans in general react to the fact that an *Easterner* holds a *Great Weapon*? Isn't that kind of the equivilent of a toddler walking around armed with an Atomic Bomb? Certainly there will be fear of the weapon itself--but I'd imagine that quite a number of Dragaerans will react to it by saying "He really shouldn't have that, it's too dangerous for him, we'd better take it away from him." Of course, that's kind of like the mice voting to bell the cat. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 2 07:06:42 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:06:42 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E22002.7080802@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >That brings to mind a question I've had since reading /Issola/... How will >Dragaerans in general react to the fact that an *Easterner* holds a *Great >Weapon*? > >Isn't that kind of the equivilent of a toddler walking around armed with >an Atomic Bomb? > >Certainly there will be fear of the weapon itself--but I'd imagine that >quite a number of Dragaerans will react to it by saying "He really >shouldn't have that, it's too dangerous for him, we'd better take it away >from him." > >Of course, that's kind of like the mice voting to bell the cat. > >Majikjon > > > It's like GWB saying we should do whatever we can to stop other countries from being like the U.S. If other countries invade or if other countries want nuclear weapons, then we should stop them. But there was a point in Delany's "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones", where they mentioned that law enforcement is designed to prevent change - once the robber barons become society, everything is hunky dory. Dragaeran society probably has lots of objections to who should have Great Weapons. But once they're owned, they are pragmatic about it. The main interest here might be in the succession rights of the GodSlayer. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 2 07:34:15 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:34:15 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:15:02 PST." Message-ID: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> > > > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > And I have to wonder, yet again, why Verra took such a rather > > roundabout way of allowing Morrolan to survive his trip to the Paths, > > instead of just taking him aside at some point and saying to him "Make > > a cut in your arm. We're going to do something that will allow you to > > leave the Paths without dying." > > > > I suppose there are additional handwaves possible, such as fresh blood > > not doing the trick properly, and/or maybe the trick doesn't work if > > you know that the stuff is (indeed, perhaps Vlad's continual refusal > > to tell Morrolan what the stuff was is an idea planted in his head by > > Verra). Oh, well. > > I don't understand "additional" above. > > Is it not sufficient to posit that Verra couldn't make the exchange > in public for political reasons, and that the Halls are generally > semi-public? Hence the value slipping S the vial off-stage beforehand. Why wouldn't Aliera's do? or Vlad's, for that matter? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 2 08:09:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:09:07 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43E22002.7080802@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 07:06 AM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Of course, that's kind of like the mice voting to bell the cat. I realized too late that I really should have said "the teckla voting to bell the dzur." Oh well. >objections to who should have Great Weapons. But once they're owned, >they are pragmatic about it. I love the ambiguity of that sentence. Owned is what they will be if they try to mess with Vlad now... ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 2 09:19:19 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:19:19 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0dea01c6281c$cd9ad6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Y'know, I think that we're reaching a point here where we have to invoke Occam's Razor and try taking things at face value instead of looking for hidden meanings and motivations for everything. Fact - Sethra tells Vlad in _Issola_ that Verra had no idea why the vial was needed. Fact - Verra is not omniscient. In fact, she quite often has no more idea about what's going on in the world than the mortal protagonists. We get several examples of this in _Phoenix_, _Issola_, and others. Fact - When Vlad and Morrolan arrive in the Halls of Judgement, Morollan is not accorded any special treatment. Reading _Taltos_, in fact, one would never have an inkling of "Morollan the high priest" or whatever it is that an Easterner might view his relationship with Verra to be. Fact - Verra never suggests a solution the problem of getting Morollan out alive. In fact, she tells him that he's stuck there, and she reprimands Aliera when Aliera suggests that she'd rather stay in the Halls and die than leave Morollan behind. Fact - Verra explaining about blood is a case of explaining the facts of life. She's not giving a covert hint unless it's very covert. Vlad makes the connection on his own. Additionally, there's no way that Verra could have expected him to succeed as he did. He attempted something that no-one had ever done before and that very easily could have killed him or driven him mad, all for a Dragonlord that he barely knew and certainly didn't think of as a trusted friend yet. Given all of the above, there's no way that Verra could have planned for the events to transpire as they did. She simply went with the flow when she got a hunch. In fact, it appears from the varous stories that Verra seldom plans anything. She just gets an idea and acts on it. Ultimately, I think we have to let go of the idea that Vlad and/or Morollan are somehow "special" to Verra. They're useful tools, and they're "special" to the extent that they have a semi-personal relationship with their patron goddess. We've seen what happens when Vlad pushes his luck and over-reaches his bounds. Verra certainly has many other "tools" and worshippers who are just as important to her. We simply don't encounter them because they aren't germane to the stories. Verra didn't shed any tears when Morollan showed up in the Halls and was condemned to death. I doubt she'll shed tears when any of our protagonists eventually dies in her service. She's not as bad as the Jenoine, but in her own way she looks at her charges in much the same way that the Jenoine viewed their slaves and test subjects. She repays respect, loyalty, and "worship" with the blessings that one expects to get from a god for giving her those things. In other respects, she's a lot more like an employer than a parent. In the end, to the gods the dragaerans are short-lived creatures whose usefulness in advancing the agendas of the Lords of Judgement is normally more important than affection towards a handful of them. Verra is subject to this viewpoint as much as the other Gods. If Morollan died, Verra would just go find another person to take his place. She expects people to take responsibility for their lives and their actions. She has never yet attempted to save anyone from making a bad decision or to mitigate the effects of making a bad or life-altering decision. In fact, looking at the events of _Phoenix_, she has no trouble putting her "tools" into situations that will ultimately make things worse for them. However much Verra likes Vlad and Morollan, in the end they're both just useful mortals. They're not her children or personal friends. From Bato001 at aol.com Thu Feb 2 10:18:53 2006 From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:18:53 EST Subject: What's a Duhring? Message-ID: In a message dated 02/02/2006 1:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, dragaera-request at dragaera.info writes: Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:55:31 -0700 From: "Jeff G." Subject: Re: What's a Duhring? To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: What's a Duhring? > > > > >Jeff > >-Has given up on most political theories, instead subscribes to the "just > >leave me alone" style of self government. > > > > > > It's nice to read Dumas to make my enjoyment of on-topic books more > complete. And while I expect this won't be as applicable as _/*History > of the Russian Revolution*/_, I expect there might be some relationship. > > The trick to enjoying politics is to control how personal it gets. The > more of an intellectual pastime it is, the easier this is. > ____ > > >I think I have that one as well. My poli sci teacher was a refugee from >Russia. You are correct about the "trick" of politics, but like religion >most take it very personally even if they have no understanding of it's >fundamentals. I just find politics to depressing, the failure of ideals when >applied in real life does that to me. >Jeff >-Has found a copy of Anti Durhing on the web, and is reading it as well. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ It may also be worth it to read Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Nations' to get a feel for what Marx is writing against. Or even better yet 'New Ideas From Dead Economists' by Feldstein and Buchholz. It is a primer to economic theory and is written in plain english. An enjoyable read and you may learn something too. John D. Barbato, OD From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 10:45:56 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:45:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <0dea01c6281c$cd9ad6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0dea01c6281c$cd9ad6f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > Fact - Verra never suggests a solution the problem of getting Morollan out > alive. In fact, she tells him that he's stuck there, and she reprimands > Aliera when Aliera suggests that she'd rather stay in the Halls and die than > leave Morollan behind. > > Fact - Verra explaining about blood is a case of explaining the facts of > life. She's not giving a covert hint unless it's very covert. "Fact" 0 begs the question rebegged in "Fact" 1. From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 2 12:20:06 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:20:06 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > "Fact" 0 begs the question rebegged in "Fact" 1. > If Vlad had the vial with him at the time, or Verra had been speaking to Vlad, I'd buy into that idea more easily. As it happens, it was Aliera who demanded an explanation for why Morollan had to stay, and Verra's reaction was "I don't owe you an explanation." It was only Aliera's status as her daughter that caused her to reconsider and answer her. Verra's only words addressed to Vlad were "Don't come back." If that's a hint, it's a pretty round-about way to give one. As far as Verra was concerned, Morollan was there for good. Rather than supposing that Verra set Vlad up to rescue Morollan, I'd be more inclined to believe that Vlad's rescue of him (combined with negotiating the Paths at his side in the first place) was what brought him to her attention. Before that he was just a member of a semi-devout family of her worshippers. After that, he became "useful". From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 12:19:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:19:41 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote > > >On 2/1/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > >> This assumes that she would be able to come up with the idea that a > >> blood transfusion to Morrolan would work. > >> > >> This possibiliy may simply not have occurred to her. > >> > >> She may not be as clever as Vlad was; he's pretty creative, after all. > >> > > > >Perhaps. Yet Vlad got the idea of the blood transfusion from Verra's > >remarks that at least part of being a god was in the blood (Indeed, > >citing specifically: "My blood is the blood of a god. It is for this > >reason that the Halls of Judgment cannot hold me.") Although there is > >also Aliera's similar statement about her own blood, I see. > > > >Was Verra truly not hinting to Vlad the direction he should be thinking? > > I don't there's any question he was inferring this from her comments, but > was she deliberately implying this by making them? > I honestly don't think we have enough clues to determine her exact > intentions. Well, I think it *may* be significant that she explicitly states that it is her blood "that the Halls of Judgment cannot hold me." I *think* that that could be counted as at least one clue that she was hinting something when she said it. After all, she could easily have said something like "I'm a god, therefore I can leave the Halls of Judgement with no problems" (leaving the underlying mechanism opaque to Vlad) (although there's still Aliera's statement as another hint, which I am pretty sure was unintended by Aliera). But as you say, that's not really enough of a clue to determine Verra's *exact* intentions. > >Who can say? > > Of course, it's also possible that the entire > "Verra-has-special-plans-for-Morrolan" angle is simply Paarfi propoganda. Good point. I can even speculate it as a sequence of events in Morrolan's future (because I have been pondering Paarfi's reference to Morrolan's appearance in the past tense at the end of SL): Morrolan, because of the infusion of godblood, apotheosisizes [1], with Verra showing up as his sponsor-god (or something like that). Observers of this event argue that that means that Verra has *always* had a special bond with Morrolan, while in fact she is just trying to make the best of the series of accidents that lead to the creation of this new god. > In the two instances where *Vlad* has witnessed Verra meeting Morrolan (in > /Taltos/ and /Issola/), there seemingly hasn't been any special kind of > connection there. (At least not that he has commented on.) Ah, but recall: People hear the words of the gods differently. It might be very interesting indeed to see what *Morrolan* heard when Verra was speaking. > This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or > Paarfi? Well, yes. ________________________________________________ 1: (someone is definitely going to smack me for that one) From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 12:42:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:42:58 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > If Vlad had the vial with him at the time, or Verra had been speaking to > Vlad, I'd buy into that idea more easily. As it happens, it was Aliera who > demanded an explanation for why Morollan had to stay, and Verra's reaction > was "I don't owe you an explanation." It was only Aliera's status as her > daughter that caused her to reconsider and answer her. Verra's only words > addressed to Vlad were "Don't come back." I still think that a hint for Vlad's ears might have been a possible intention, although there the question arises, do the gods have any *control* over what their listeners hear? If they do, then why would Verra give away to Vlad something that might be considered a divine secret? > If that's a hint, it's a pretty round-about way to give one. Well, exactly. No-one is saying that it was a heavy-handed hint. > As far as Verra was concerned, Morollan was there for good. Not necessarily. Recall her words about Morrolan becoming an undead. If Vlad had not done the teleport trick, Morrolan might have been allowed to leave that way, perhaps after some more bickering and/or dickering with the gods > Rather than > supposing that Verra set Vlad up to rescue Morollan, I'd be more inclined to > believe that Vlad's rescue of him (combined with negotiating the Paths at > his side in the first place) was what brought him to her attention. Before > that he was just a member of a semi-devout family of her worshippers. After > that, he became "useful". And that, too, is a valid interpretation. After all, multiple possibilites for interpretation is why there is discussion in the first place. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 2 12:46:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:46:18 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 12:20 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: the honing of Vlad >If Vlad had the vial with him at the time, or Verra had been speaking to >Vlad, I'd buy into that idea more easily. As it happens, it was Aliera who >demanded an explanation for why Morollan had to stay, and Verra's reaction >was "I don't owe you an explanation." It was only Aliera's status as her >daughter that caused her to reconsider and answer her. Verra's only words Well, that's how it *appears*, anyway. We don't hear Verra's inner monologue, so her motivations are cloudy. Go ask Trout, I guess. >addressed to Vlad were "Don't come back." If that's a hint, it's a pretty >round-about way to give one. S'true. I'm personally inclined to believe that Vlad came up with the idea on his own, and that Verra's speach was just what it appeared to be... If for no other reason than that I think Vlad's a pretty clever guy. But I can't *prove* it. >As far as Verra was concerned, Morollan was there for good. Rather than Well, that's an assumption. But possibly a correct one. >supposing that Verra set Vlad up to rescue Morollan, I'd be more inclined to >believe that Vlad's rescue of him (combined with negotiating the Paths at >his side in the first place) was what brought him to her attention. Before >that he was just a member of a semi-devout family of her worshippers. After >that, he became "useful". This might work for both of them (Vlad and Morrolan) actually. (If we assume that Paarfi doesn't really know anything about Morrolan's relationship with Verra, and just made up huge wodges of speculation of his own in VoA.) Perhaps it was Morrolan's ability to escape the Paths that really made Verra take note of him. I suppose the chief argument against this is existence of Morrolan's window. Verra apparently gave it to him *before* he showed up in the Paths--but to the left, we really only have Paarfi's word on this, since Vlad doesn't see it (chronologically, anyway) until the time of /Dragon/. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 12:50:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:50:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [spec on Verra hinting] Let's not forget where the info comes from. From howard at brazee.net Thu Feb 2 13:21:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:21:57 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <0ef101c62836$0eb27800$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43E277F5.2070100@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >I still think that a hint for Vlad's ears might have been a possible >intention, although there the question arises, do the gods have any >*control* over what their listeners hear? If they do, then why would >Verra give away to Vlad something that might be considered a divine >secret? > > That's a big issue - I don't see evidence that gods think and plan the way people do. They are different - remember whose servants they were. Cause and effect is different, as are memories and even revenge. They are more "natural" in their actions. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:05:11 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:05:11 -0800 Subject: Brust Convention schedule Message-ID: Huh. Dragaera.info doesn't have any of these: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica/ Just in case anyone is interested. From steve at romlin.com Thu Feb 2 14:40:00 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:40:00 +0100 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. Message-ID: Just finished "Brokedown Palace" and after getting over enjoying the good read, (which it was!) I realized I was really left dissatisfied. It's not unusual for a story to leave minor details and players incomplete, but it seemed to me that this book left ALL the major details and players incomplete. Everything important. The events are there, but that's it. Looking it over again, pretty much every major thing that happens, happens not because some human decides to do it, but because some supernatural agency decides to. And those agencies are more than half unidentified. The humans are, for the most part, unwitting pawns, and the players and their motivations are left mysterious. Even knowing what I know from the rest of Brust's books, I was unable to guess what really went on. So feel free to correct me if I've missed something, but-- : (Sort-of spoilers implied in the questions here) . . . . . . . . . . What is Verra trying to accomplish with her support of those she supports? Who is working against her? Why is it necessary to move so drastically against her? Wouldn't a chat help? Is the River a power in itself or a representative of some other power? Which one? Is Brigitta a power in herself or a representative of that same power? Ditto Bolk? Why must Sandor be eliminated? Mom n Dad? Reszo? In most basic terms, is this a Gods vs. Nature, Gods vs. Gods, or Gods vs. Man, or Man vs. Man struggle? And -- Why does Brigitta have to leave? She never explains really. Yes, I realize that the Fenarian folk-tales interspersed are also lacking in motivations and that this may just be following a tradition. But most of those tales also credit the Demon Goddess with being the driving force. This obviously does not. So any theories, or am I just questioning the ineffable? \Steve the Younger From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 14:59:23 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:59:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or descended from one, as far as we know. From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 2 15:24:42 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:24:42 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > So any theories, or am I just questioning the ineffable? Making logical sense of a folk tale can be an exercise in futility. Magical things happen because the setting is magical. Players come and go and act in odd ways because that's what the story demands, not because it neccesarily makes any sense. ;-) Brigitta leaves because she's bearing a half-demon child, is afraid of the ostricization (no way of knowing what a half-demon child will be like) and she's not that fond of Fenario anyway. Yes, the narrative copies a traditional form so expecting any sort of normal development is opening oneself to dissatisfaction. The story is simply an allegory. It's a story about the destruction of the old order and its replacement by a new order. It's about the unshackling of Men from the yoke of Faerie and the Gods (though there's some question whether Bolk is a God or not). It's about life, death, and the inevitability of rebirth. > What is Verra trying to accomplish with her support of those > she supports? The support of the Establishment. She is the agent of Order, Stability and ultimately, Stagnation. Rather ironic considering that it's Verra we're talking about. > Who is working against her? No-one is working actively against her. Well, Bolk is, I suppose. Verra's defeat happens because the attack comes from a completely unexpected vector, initiated half-unknowingly by one of her subjects that she probably still hoped to pull back into the fold. I think she saw Miklos as misguided rather than an actual enemy. > Why is it necessary to move so drastically against her? Because the Old Order is one of stagnation and decay and she is actively preventing any change to the situation. She likes things the way they are, even if it's not really the best thing for the people who worship her. > Wouldn't a chat > help? Good question. Maybe it would have in the beginning. Certainly it was unlikely to help by the time events were rolling along. > Is the River a power in itself or a representative of some > other power? Good question. It's a fairy tale set in the mysterious East. Go with it. :-) > Which one? See above. > Is Brigitta a power in herself or a representative of that same power? Brigitta is Brigitta. She's a catalyst, (the outsider who awakens the dreamer to his true surroundings) but she's not a power, IMO. Pararectaly, there is some speculation that she is ultimately Cawti's mother. > Ditto Bolk? Bolk is a mystery. He might be a rogue God. He might be a demon or something like a God. He may be something else entirely. Whatever he is, he's following his own agenda, not that of another being. > Why must Sandor be eliminated? Mom n Dad? Reszo? They are the Establishment. The represent the Old Order that has locked the land in stasis and led to the decay and decline of all around them. They're the aristrocracy and Miklos and the tree are the Revolution. > In most basic terms, is this a Gods vs. Nature, Gods vs. > Gods, or Gods vs. > Man, or Man vs. Man struggle? None of the above. All of the above. Ultimately, it's a struggle of Death versus Birth and the dawning of a new age. The Palace isn't just a Palace. It's a symbol of the kingdom and, in a larger sense, of Mankind. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:09:53 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:09:53 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > None of the above. All of the above. Ultimately, it's a struggle of Death > versus Birth and the dawning of a new age. The Palace isn't just a Palace. > It's a symbol of the kingdom and, in a larger sense, of Mankind. Actually, the Palace is a pun. Capitol => Capital. Tee hee. I need to read Anti-duhring so I can get that Brokedown_Palace:Meta article finished. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:21:09 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:21:09 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? > > Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or > descended from one, as far as we know. As far as we know, true. But to the left, there is the speculation revolving around him being secretly the son of Verra. And the trinary moment with Spellbreaker. Hm. What if Vlad is indeed (meant to be) a god, and everyone who knows about it has no interest whatsoever in telling him? That might mean that that whole "An Easterner can leave the Paths of the Dead" is a big whopping half-truth, or more bluntly, a lie. And his blood might indeed have been able to help Morrolan, except for perhaps blood antigen incompatibility. From felixeisen at yahoo.com Thu Feb 2 19:37:38 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:37:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060203033738.85160.qmail@web52011.mail.yahoo.com> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or Paarfi? Majikjon Paarfi. By a factor of a multiplier of a power. Paarfi, for all his 'claims', should be read as entertainment, not as 'history'; we all know how many differences there are between what Paarfi 'states' and what Vlad relates to the little silver box as being told to him by various personages. The one that pops immediately to mind is the differences between where Paarfi says Morrolan is when Zerika descends Deathgate Falls, and where Vlad says Morrolan says he was. Remember, Paarfi is writing so that he can make money so that he can live in a manner to which he has become accustomed -- i.e. wenching, drinking, carousing, and most importantly never answering direct questions as to whether or not his writing is actually historically accurate. Vlad, on the other hand, is just telling a story; he's guaranteed paid (apparently a whole heap o' gold for each tale), he doesn't -need- to shade things to make himself look good. Or to make the story look good. If that were necessary, wouldn't Phoenix read differently, instead of 'I can't remember a damn thing about what happened during those few days, but when I read so-and-so's pamphlet about it, I found myself saying, 'oh yeah''?? He'd just tell US what happened, and steal the woman's work for his own. Hell, half the stuff Vlad does is virtually guaranteed to make him look like a bastard, a heel, a spiritually worthless son-of-a-bitch. Everything that Paarfi writes is intentionally slanted to make a good story, where his chosen characters are noble and honorable, or at least not all that bad. (Hell, even his bandits are courteous and generous...) Paarfi is good for a 'well, these events happened in ABOUT this way'. Vlad -- and through Vlad Sethra, Morrolan, Aliera, and the rest -- is far, far better for the specifics. In fact, I can't really comprehend why anyone would try to prove a point using Paarfi, when he's so clearly possessed of an agenda ... --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 2 20:33:29 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:33:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060203033738.85160.qmail@web52011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060203033738.85160.qmail@web52011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Felix Eisen wrote: > > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or > Paarfi? > > [...] Paarfi, for all his 'claims', should be read as entertainment, not > as 'history'; we all know how many differences there are between what > Paarfi 'states' and what Vlad relates to the little silver box as being > told to him by various personages. Begging the question. Also, P and V are actually remarkably consistent, given that one is an oral work and both are translated. > Remember, Paarfi is writing so that he can make money May or may not be true. May or may not affect the veracity of the story. > > Vlad, on the other hand, is just telling a story which is no guarantee of veracity, plus memory is like a something-or-other. Note that the Paarfiad is being read by people who experienced the events in question and might not take kindly to false portrayals, whether fawning or otherwise. Vlad can tell us what he likes, improving or ameliorating the truth. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 23:58:13 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:58:13 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060203033738.85160.qmail@web52011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060203033738.85160.qmail@web52011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602022358o1d80f96tcc08139990c68419@mail.gmail.com> Felix wrote: Paarfi. By a factor of a multiplier of a power. Paarfi, for all > his 'claims', should be read as entertainment, not as 'history'; we > all know how many differences there are between what Paarfi 'states' > and what Vlad relates to the little silver box as being told to him > by various personages. The one that pops immediately to mind is > the differences between where Paarfi says Morrolan is when Zerika > descends Deathgate Falls, and where Vlad says Morrolan says he was. And in this case, we know that Vlad's account cannot possibly be taken at face value, because Morrolan discusses his firsthand knowledge of the impossibility of using sorcery there; and having been born during the Interregnum, he cannot have had any such knowledge at the time. (Unless you're willing to countenance the possibility that he somehow learned Elder Sorcery out East, or came West early enough to learn it from Sethra before heading up to the Falls.) Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 00:09:02 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 03:09:02 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602022358o1d80f96tcc08139990c68419@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: Maximilian Wilson >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad >Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:58:13 -0700 > > >And in this case, we know that Vlad's account cannot possibly be taken at >face value, because Morrolan discusses his firsthand knowledge of the >impossibility of using sorcery there; and having been born during the >Interregnum, he cannot have had any such knowledge at the time. (Unless >you're willing to countenance the possibility that he somehow learned Elder >Sorcery out East, or came West early enough to learn it from Sethra before >heading up to the Falls.) > >Max Wilson > >-- >Be pretty if you are, >Be witty if you can, >But be cheerful if it kills you. how do we know he hasn't come back? it's been, what, 247 years or some such since the Interregnum? it's quite possible he's attended an event there in the past, even using his window for transport, which would explain his lack of knowledge of the surrounding area with which to get teleport coordinates. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 06:05:37 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:05:37 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 04:09 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. >On 2/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: >> None of the above. All of the above. Ultimately, it's a struggle of Death >> versus Birth and the dawning of a new age. The Palace isn't just a Palace. >> It's a symbol of the kingdom and, in a larger sense, of Mankind. > >Actually, the Palace is a pun. Capitol => Capital. Tee hee. > >I need to read Anti-duhring so I can get that Brokedown_Palace:Meta >article finished. The work you posted on it yesterday is very impressive. I'll go correct some of your spelling mistakes in a little bit... ;-) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 06:08:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:08:17 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 04:21 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On 2/2/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or >> descended from one, as far as we know. > >As far as we know, true. But to the left, there is the speculation >revolving around him being secretly the son of Verra. And the trinary >moment with Spellbreaker. > >Hm. What if Vlad is indeed (meant to be) a god, and everyone who >knows about it has no interest whatsoever in telling him? I seem to recall reading an interview where Steve said that he knows how Vlad dies... This indicates to me that godhood is not so likely for him. (Of course, Steve has been known to change his mind on things from time to time.) >That might mean that that whole "An Easterner can leave the Paths of >the Dead" is a big whopping half-truth, or more bluntly, a lie. And >his blood might indeed have been able to help Morrolan, except for >perhaps blood antigen incompatibility. Even if Vlad were going to be a god *later*, would that make his blood special *now*? Majikjon From sraun at fireopal.org Fri Feb 3 06:32:25 2006 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:32:25 -0600 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060203143225.GA20992@fireopal.org> On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 06:08:17AM -0800, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I seem to recall reading an interview where Steve said that he knows how > Vlad dies... This indicates to me that godhood is not so likely for him. > (Of course, Steve has been known to change his mind on things from time to > time.) Who's to say that dying isn't a pre-req for godhood? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 06:45:39 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 07:45:39 -0700 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davdi Silverrock" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. I need to read Anti-duhring so I can get that Brokedown_Palace:Meta article finished. Everyone else is right now, so why not? Jeff - wishes his german was better so he could read it in the original. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 06:46:00 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:46:00 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <20060203033738.85160.qmail@web52011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/02/06 07:37 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >>Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> This raises (yet again) the question: who's more unreliable, Vlad or >>Paarfi? > > >Paarfi. By a factor of a multiplier of a power. Paarfi, for all his 'claims', should be read as entertainment, not as 'history'; we all >know how many differences there are between what Paarfi 'states' and what Vlad relates to the little silver box as being told to him by >various personages. The one that pops immediately to mind is the differences between where Paarfi says Morrolan is when Zerika descends >Deathgate Falls, and where Vlad says Morrolan says he was. "...where Vlad says Morrolan says he was..." So, the information is third-hand, coming from one individual with no corraburation. > Remember, Paarfi is writing so that he can make money so that he can live in a manner to which he has become accustomed -- i.e. wenching, >drinking, carousing, and most importantly never answering direct questions as to whether or not his writing is actually historically >accurate. Paarfi seems to be concerned at least with the pretense of being historically accurate. As such, any inventions or distortions he makes are likely to be in very muddy areas (such as the conversations of the gods) where no one will be able to prove him wrong later. Major information, such as "Where was Lord Morrolan's army on such and such a date, and was he present in camp at that time?" are going to be matters of public record, therefore much harder to fudge without sacrificing his penchant for "history". > Vlad, on the other hand, is just telling a story; he's guaranteed paid (apparently a whole heap o' gold for each tale), he doesn't -need- >to shade things to make himself look good. Or to make the story look good. If that were necessary, wouldn't Phoenix read differently, >instead of 'I can't remember a damn thing about what happened during those few days, but when I read so-and-so's pamphlet about it, I >found myself saying, 'oh yeah''?? He'd just tell US what happened, and steal the woman's work for his own. Just because Vlad has no motivation to lie, doesn't mean he has any particular motivation to tell the truth, either. Why bother to steal Maria Parachezk's work when he can just be lazy and say "some stuff happened that I'm not going to get into" and save himself the effort? I wouldn't say this makes him any *more* reliable. > Hell, half the stuff Vlad does is virtually guaranteed to make him look like a bastard, a heel, a spiritually worthless son-of-a-bitch. >Everything that Paarfi writes is intentionally slanted to make a good story, where his chosen characters are noble and honorable, or at >least not all that bad. (Hell, even his bandits are courteous and generous...) Vlad is somewhat self-deprecating, it's true. At the same time, Vlad doesn't have to worry about his facts fitting in with what actually happened on such-and-such-a-date, since he knows (implied in /Athyra/) that no one else is going to be reading his works. > Paarfi is good for a 'well, these events happened in ABOUT this way'. Vlad -- and through Vlad Sethra, Morrolan, Aliera, and the rest -- >is far, far better for the specifics. Well, we never actually hear from any of the rest of them, (with the exception of Kiera) it's all channeled through Vlad. (Except for /Athyra/ I suppose, we never get the clear on who exactly is narrating that one.) Is Kiera more reliable than Vlad? Or less? How about Kiera vs Paarfi? (Here's where Philip Hart jumps in and says "They're the same!" right?) > In fact, I can't really comprehend why anyone would try to prove a point using Paarfi, when he's so clearly possessed of an agenda ... If for no other reason than his series of events are the only one we have to go on in many cases. Something is better than nothing. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not really convinced that Vlad is less reliable than Paarfi--just that the question is more complex than you pretend. Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Feb 3 07:11:25 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:11:25 -0500 Subject: What's a Duhring? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E3729D.9000501@email.ers.usda.gov> Bato001 at aol.com wrote: > > >http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ >It may also be worth it to read Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Nations' to get a >feel for what Marx is writing against. Or even better yet 'New Ideas From >Dead Economists' by Feldstein and Buchholz. It is a primer to economic theory and >is written in plain english. An enjoyable read and you may learn something >too. > > > I always liked Heilbroner's =The Worldly Philosophers= as a good non-technical intro to what economists, at least through Galbraith, were thinking. snarkhunter From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Fri Feb 3 07:26:24 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:26:24 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:59:23 PST." Message-ID: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? > > Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or > descended from one, as far as we know. Vlad's not a god, but it was implied that it was because of his blood that he could leave. So if Morrollan suddenly became part Easterner... From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 3 08:06:12 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:06:12 +0000 Subject: the honing of Vlad Message-ID: <20060203160612.WWPZ21315.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> > > From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > Date: 2006/02/03 Fri PM 02:08:17 GMT > I seem to recall reading an interview where Steve said that he knows how > Vlad dies... This indicates to me that godhood is not so likely for him. > (Of course, Steve has been known to change his mind on things from time to > time.) > Vlad dies....Heh, which time? I seem to remember at least twice. Mark. ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 08:23:26 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:23:26 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/06, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? > > > > Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or > > descended from one, as far as we know. > > Vlad's not a god, but it was implied that it was because of his blood > that he could leave. So if Morrollan suddenly became part Easterner... > My impression is that the Lords of Judgment had something along the lines of this enchantment in place: "no human blood may leave the Halls of Judgment." This ensures that undead (very pale, remember) can leave, and so can Morrolan's corpse. Vlad gets away through the same loophole that got him into Loraan's fortress. Cons of this theory: one little vial of Verra's blood isn't going to be enough to keep Morrolan alive, having lost his own. Pros: surely you're not suggesting that Loiosh is a god? Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Feb 3 08:53:09 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:53:09 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E38A75.5040202@Sun.COM> Maximilian Wilson wrote On 02/03/06 08:23,: > Pros: surely you're not suggesting that Loiosh is a god? Heh. I'll bet Loiosh thinks he is. Though Rocza might disagree. :) Chris From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 09:05:10 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:05:10 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43E38A75.5040202@Sun.COM> Message-ID: Chris Olson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/03/06 08:53 AM Please respond to Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM To Maximilian Wilson cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Maximilian Wilson wrote On 02/03/06 08:23,: >> Pros: surely you're not suggesting that Loiosh is a god? > >Heh. I'll bet Loiosh thinks he is. Though Rocza might disagree. Loiosh doesn't think he's a god, he just thinks he's a jhereg. After all, why would he want to lower his own opinion of himself? ;-) Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 09:12:10 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:12:10 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maximilian Wilson" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:23 AM Subject: Re: the honing of Vlad On 2/3/06, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? > > > > Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or > > descended from one, as far as we know. > > Vlad's not a god, but it was implied that it was because of his blood > that he could leave. So if Morrollan suddenly became part Easterner... > My impression is that the Lords of Judgment had something along the lines of this enchantment in place: "no human blood may leave the Halls of Judgment." This ensures that undead (very pale, remember) can leave, and so can Morrolan's corpse. Vlad gets away through the same loophole that got him into Loraan's fortress. Cons of this theory: one little vial of Verra's blood isn't going to be enough to keep Morrolan alive, having lost his own. Pros: surely you're not suggesting that Loiosh is a god? Max Wilson -- Or maybe Vlad's spell is more impressive than just a teleport. Remember, witchcraft is all about symbols, perhaps the vial of blood was a sufficient symbol for a larger spell than Vlad thought. If you think about how witchcraft works, and why Vlad was doing the spell, it is not as big of a stretch as you might think. Also, do we have textev that the vial is actually Verra's Blood? I don't recall. Jeff -Is fairly certain it wasn't his blood. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 09:25:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:25:31 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/03/06 09:12 AM To cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Also, do we have textev that the vial is actually Verra's Blood? I don't >recall. Well, we've got plenty of hearsay and conjecture--those are *kinds* of evidence... Majikjon --Currently channeling Lionel Hutz... From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:36:30 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:36:30 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Jeff G. wrote: > > Also, do we have textev that the vial is actually Verra's Blood? I don't > recall. > Well, here's what we have: /Taltos/, ch 7 (/Book of Taltos/, pg 68) Vlad: "What's in the vial?" Kiera: "The blood of a goddess" /Orca/, ch 17 (/Book of Athyra/, pg 421) Vlad: "And what was that whole business with the blood of the goddess? Not that I haven't figured out who the goddess is." Kiera: "I can't tell you that, Vlad. She said it was important for you to have that vial, and that she, herself, didn't know why." Hmm. I wonder if the goddess was in fact Devera rather than Verra? That would actually work better in some ways, since Devera is (a) nicer than Verra, and (b) a blood relative of Morrolan. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Feb 3 10:52:32 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:52:32 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <344e01c628f3$00f97430$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > >Also, do we have textev that the vial is actually Verra's > Blood? I don't > >recall. What textev there is, from _Orca_, courtesy of Amazon's Look Inside ---- "...what was the whole business with the blood of the goddess? Not that I haven't figured out who the goddess is." "I can't tell you that, Vlad. She said it was important for you to have that vial, and that she, herself, didn't know why." ---- Verra is implicated rather than named outright. This is the biggest reason why I think it's a mistake to spend too much time trying to analyze events. Taken at face value, Verra didn't intend Vlad to use the vial to rescue Morollan. She never intended anything at all. With no way to know the reason for the gift,there would be no way to know when to drop a hint about it. Even if Verra remembered the vial, thought "That could save my high priest", and trusted Vlad to succeed at retrieving it from another reality, there'd be no way for her to know that THIS event was the one that had been foreshadowed. She could end up wasting it to save a single human life only to find that she had completely hosed a more important and far-reaching need for it down the road. The only way to make the whole thing work as some kind of sneaky plan on Verra's part is to invent a lot of conspiracy and planning that there's no evidence of at all. In fact, as I've pointed out previously, Verra appears to be anything but a long-term planner. That puts her at odds with most of the other Gods, but it also makes her useful as a catalyst to action when the other Gods are gridlocked in debate to the point of doing nothing at all. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:50:52 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:50:52 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > My impression is that the Lords of Judgment had something along the lines of > this enchantment in place: "no human blood may leave the Halls of Judgment." > This ensures that undead (very pale, remember) can leave, and so can > Morrolan's corpse. Vlad gets away through the same loophole that got him > into Loraan's fortress. > > Cons of this theory: one little vial of Verra's blood isn't going to be > enough to keep Morrolan alive, having lost his own. Well, presumably it works the same way for Morrolan as it does for Aliera - Aliera has normal Dragaeran blood and also Divine blood, and thus can leave. The "*no* human (Dragaeran) blood may leave the Halls of Judgment" notion is interesting, but not, I think, quite right. But the idea that Sethra thought it was the only way that she could leave (and therefore, perhaps that is why she is a vampire) is very interesting indeed... From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:58:35 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:58:35 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? Two thoughts: Aliera's blood was already a dilution of human and goddess, and Aliera was also still in a weakened state. So taking enough blood from Aliera to do Morrolan any good would have harmed her, possibly to the point where she would not be able to leave alive, thus jeopardizing the whole point of the quest to the Paths of the Dead. From howard at brazee.net Fri Feb 3 11:44:48 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:44:48 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E3B2B0.2020206@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >I seem to recall reading an interview where Steve said that he knows how >Vlad dies... This indicates to me that godhood is not so likely for him. >(Of course, Steve has been known to change his mind on things from time to >time.) > > I've read how Jesus died, so I don't know what you are basing your likelihood upon. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Feb 3 11:49:08 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:49:08 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <200602021534.k12FYGXN013982@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <43E3B3B4.5080500@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > >>Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? >> >> > >Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or >descended from one, as far as we know. > Not a handwave. In theory, Aliera's blood *might* do, but only three people during the final conversation with Verra know about Aliera's parentage: Aliera, Verra and (presumably) Morrolan. None of these are going to explain Aliera's parentage to Vlad; it's just none of his business (he only finds out much later, and he's actually friends with Aliera at that point). The only people who know that Vlad is planning to teleport the blood of the goddess and infuse Morrolan's with it are Loiosh and Vlad. There's dramatic irony here, since if Aliera was familiar with witchcraft, she might suggest using her own blood, assuming she was thinking clearly enough to think of that in the first place. But she's tired (and not a witch), Morrolan's tired (and determined to die for his cousin), and Vlad only remembers the blood of a goddess, despite being tired, because the smell of the ocean reminds him of the drink he has with Kiera when she gives him the vial of blood. Morrolan might also think of the blood transfusion, but he'd probably rather die than further weaken his cousin by taking her blood just for him to live, an uncertain proposition. Morrolan is dumb like that. Uh, I mean, honorable. Since per Orca, even Verra doesn't know what the blood is to be used for, she can't make any suggestions. Perhaps the politics of the Halls make it difficult for her to interfere more than she already has (i.e., allowing a second live Dragaeran to leave the Halls (Aliera) is bad enough; interfering to allow a third who isn't an heir to a throne might cause some divine censure she wouldn't want to deal with). But that's just speculation; what we know is that Vlad & co. are told that they are on their own, and only Vlad, Loiosh and Aliera may leave alive. Once they're kicked out of the Divine Throneroom, or whatever, the only options for bringing out Morrolan alive are Aliera's blood and a vial Vlad has in a trunk somewhere. They don't discuss these options because Morrolan and Aliera have already decided that Morrolan is doomed, and Aliera won't let someone die for her to live, so she's doomed too. Those two are the only ones that could tell Vlad, "hey, we've got all the blood you need right here" *pointing at Aliera* Since he doesn't know this, his options are reduced to the vial. I suppose you can argue that the handwave is Vlad being unwilling to tell Morrolan what he's about to attempt, which could possibly solve everything by their realizing that Aliera has the blood they need (assuming Morrolan would let it happen). But really, Vlad doesn't know Morrolan that well and he likes to keep things to himself and Loiosh, possibly to make himself look impressive (he keeps going out of his way to look good when Dragons are around). Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 12:01:20 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:01:20 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <43E3B2B0.2020206@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/03/06 11:44 AM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >>I seem to recall reading an interview where Steve said that he knows how >>Vlad dies... This indicates to me that godhood is not so likely for him. >>(Of course, Steve has been known to change his mind on things from time to >>time.) >> >> > >I've read how Jesus died, so I don't know what you are basing your >likelihood upon. Yes, and it only took the Catholic Church 800 years or so after that to decide whether Jesus had "become" god, or had just "gone to be with" god. (A debate that still come up from time to time, actually.) (This also resulted in the concept of the holy trinity, yada yada yada,with the result being that Christianity is really Polytheism, rather than Monotheism.) Somehow I don't think that's quite was Steve is going for... But really, who can say? ;-) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 3 12:04:05 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:04:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Howard Brazee > > >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > >>I seem to recall reading an interview where Steve said that he knows how > >>Vlad dies... > > > >I've read how Jesus died Let's watch the spoilers, everybody. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:34:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:34:08 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43E3B2B0.2020206@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > > >I've read how Jesus died, so I don't know what you are basing your > >likelihood upon. > > Yes, and it only took the Catholic Church 800 years or so after that to > decide whether Jesus had "become" god, or had just "gone to be with" god. > (A debate that still come up from time to time, actually.) > I've been reading up a bit on the history of the Church, and it was a lot earlier than 800 that that was decided by the Catholic Church. The first council of Nicea was 325, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed As you say, there has been more than a little disagreement, both then and now, and skimming the above page (and subsidiary pages), the issue is rather confused, as one might well expect. But the Catholic Church and most mainstream Christians follow the Nicene Creed, which states outright that Jesus was "true God from true God". Which is... well, best not get into theological arguments here. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 12:41:58 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:41:58 -0700 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: <43E3B2B0.2020206@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602031241q1569acb3if551186cdea03bbf@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Howard Brazee > >I've read how Jesus died, so I don't know what you are basing your > >likelihood upon. > > Yes, and it only took the Catholic Church 800 years or so after that to > decide whether Jesus had "become" god, or had just "gone to be with" god. > (A debate that still come up from time to time, actually.) But this has everything to do with monotheism, and nothing to do with Jesus' death. Since Dragaerans aren't monotheists, this is irrelevant to the issue of whether Vlad is Ascending (to borrow Malazan terminology). Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 13:21:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:21:12 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/03/06 12:34 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >On 2/3/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > >> Yes, and it only took the Catholic Church 800 years or so after that to >> decide whether Jesus had "become" god, or had just "gone to be with" god. >> (A debate that still come up from time to time, actually.) >> > >I've been reading up a bit on the history of the Church, and it was a >lot earlier than 800 that that was decided by the Catholic Church. >The first council of Nicea was 325, for example. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed Well, yes. I may be guilty of exaggerating. It was only 3 centuries instead of 8. But, as you say, this issue continued to be somewhat devisive in the church after this point, anyway. >As you say, there has been more than a little disagreement, both then >and now, and skimming the above page (and subsidiary pages), the issue >is rather confused, as one might well expect. > >But the Catholic Church and most mainstream Christians follow the >Nicene Creed, which states outright that Jesus was "true God from true >God". Which is... well, best not get into theological arguments here. Indeed. I didn't mean to spark a religious debate or anything. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Feb 3 14:09:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:09:13 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602031241q1569acb3if551186cdea03bbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maximilian Wilson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/03/06 12:41 PM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc Dragaera List Subject Re: the honing of Vlad >But this has everything to do with monotheism, and nothing to do with >Jesus' death. Since Dragaerans aren't monotheists, this is irrelevant >to the issue of whether Vlad is Ascending (to borrow Malazan >terminology). I think Howard was trying to use Jesus as an example of someone who died, and still became a god. I think it's a poor analogy, since Vlad bears about as much similarity to Christ as Loiosh does to Mary Magdaline. But hey, it's a valid point that dying doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't get godhood. I just don't think it's going to happen. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Feb 3 14:13:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:13:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Vlad bears about as much similarity to Christ as Loiosh does to Mary > Magdaline. See _Phoenix_ for a different take on the first point. See the unexpurgated Vladiad on the latter. From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Feb 3 17:11:18 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:11:18 -0500 Subject: the honing of Vlad In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060203200828.02569ad8@cox.net> At 11:23 AM 2/3/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 2/3/06, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > > > Why wouldn't Aliera's [blood] do? or Vlad's, for that matter? > > > > > > Re the former, handwave. Re the latter, Vlad's not a god or > > > descended from one, as far as we know. > > > > Vlad's not a god, but it was implied that it was because of his blood > > that he could leave. So if Morrollan suddenly became part Easterner... > > > >My impression is that the Lords of Judgment had something along the lines of >this enchantment in place: "no human blood may leave the Halls of Judgment." >This ensures that undead (very pale, remember) can leave, and so can >Morrolan's corpse. Vlad gets away through the same loophole that got him >into Loraan's fortress. As I remember, Dragaerans consider themselves "human", but not Easterners (Easterners, of course, reciprocate the thought). Ergo, Vlad is not human, thus may leave the Halls. >Cons of this theory: one little vial of Verra's blood isn't going to be >enough to keep Morrolan alive, having lost his own. >Pros: surely you're not suggesting that Loiosh is a god? Loiosh is definitely not human (by anyone's definition) of course. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au Sat Feb 4 02:15:25 2006 From: francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au (Francesco Nicoletti) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:15:25 +1100 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> This thread has inspired me to three further questions. Given our esteemed author's tendency to work through an unreliable narrator, with his or own agenda, is there such a narrator for Brokedown Palace ? Who would it be ? What is their agenda ? If the agenda of the narrator is the agenda of the book, as analyzed by Mr. Schultz below, the narrator would very easily be a member of Kelly's gang of revolutionaries. One could see the book as a revolutionary tract for the dragaeran empire. In it a seed from outside , a metaphor for Kelly's books, leads after the over though of a god of stasis & her followers , perhaps a metaphor for the Cycle and all it implies, to a shining new palace . The author would also have to be someone with some knowledge of Fenario. That seem to leave a subset of with one member, Cawti. If Cawti did write Brokedown Palace & Brigitta is her mother, perhaps Cawti sees herself in the same catalyst role in Dargaeria as she wrote for her mother in Brokedown Palace. It would be interesting to see Fenario from another narrator's perspective. Vald's would be nice. Would he see a shining new palace by the river ? How unreliable is the narrator of Brokedown Palace? Delurking for the first time in quite a while. Francesco Nicoletti Scott Schultz wrote: >>So any theories, or am I just questioning the ineffable? >> >> > >Making logical sense of a folk tale can be an exercise in futility. Magical >things happen because the setting is magical. Players come and go and act in >odd ways because that's what the story demands, not because it neccesarily >makes any sense. ;-) > >Brigitta leaves because she's bearing a half-demon child, is afraid of the >ostricization (no way of knowing what a half-demon child will be like) and >she's not that fond of Fenario anyway. > >Yes, the narrative copies a traditional form so expecting any sort of normal >development is opening oneself to dissatisfaction. > >The story is simply an allegory. It's a story about the destruction of the >old order and its replacement by a new order. It's about the unshackling of >Men from the yoke of Faerie and the Gods (though there's some question >whether Bolk is a God or not). It's about life, death, and the inevitability >of rebirth. > > > >>What is Verra trying to accomplish with her support of those >>she supports? >> >> > >The support of the Establishment. She is the agent of Order, Stability and >ultimately, Stagnation. Rather ironic considering that it's Verra we're >talking about. > > > >>Who is working against her? >> >> > >No-one is working actively against her. Well, Bolk is, I suppose. Verra's >defeat happens because the attack comes from a completely unexpected vector, >initiated half-unknowingly by one of her subjects that she probably still >hoped to pull back into the fold. I think she saw Miklos as misguided rather >than an actual enemy. > > > >>Why is it necessary to move so drastically against her? >> >> > >Because the Old Order is one of stagnation and decay and she is actively >preventing any change to the situation. She likes things the way they are, >even if it's not really the best thing for the people who worship her. > > > >>Wouldn't a chat >>help? >> >> > >Good question. Maybe it would have in the beginning. Certainly it was >unlikely to help by the time events were rolling along. > > > >>Is the River a power in itself or a representative of some >>other power? >> >> > >Good question. It's a fairy tale set in the mysterious East. Go with it. :-) > > > >>Which one? >> >> > >See above. > > > >>Is Brigitta a power in herself or a representative of that same power? >> >> > >Brigitta is Brigitta. She's a catalyst, (the outsider who awakens the >dreamer to his true surroundings) but she's not a power, IMO. Pararectaly, >there is some speculation that she is ultimately Cawti's mother. > > > >>Ditto Bolk? >> >> > >Bolk is a mystery. He might be a rogue God. He might be a demon or something >like a God. He may be something else entirely. Whatever he is, he's >following his own agenda, not that of another being. > > > >>Why must Sandor be eliminated? Mom n Dad? Reszo? >> >> > >They are the Establishment. The represent the Old Order that has locked the >land in stasis and led to the decay and decline of all around them. They're >the aristrocracy and Miklos and the tree are the Revolution. > > > >>In most basic terms, is this a Gods vs. Nature, Gods vs. >>Gods, or Gods vs. >>Man, or Man vs. Man struggle? >> >> > >None of the above. All of the above. Ultimately, it's a struggle of Death >versus Birth and the dawning of a new age. The Palace isn't just a Palace. >It's a symbol of the kingdom and, in a larger sense, of Mankind. > > > > > > > From francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au Sat Feb 4 02:37:04 2006 From: francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au (Francesco Nicoletti) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:37:04 +1100 Subject: the honing of Vlad :issola spoiler In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060203200828.02569ad8@cox.net> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060203200828.02569ad8@cox.net> Message-ID: <43E483D0.4090506@pacific.net.au> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 11:23 AM 2/3/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > >> >> My impression is that the Lords of Judgment had something along the >> lines of >> this enchantment in place: "no human blood may leave the Halls of >> Judgment." >> This ensures that undead (very pale, remember) can leave, and so can >> Morrolan's corpse. Vlad gets away through the same loophole that got him >> into Loraan's fortress. > > > As I remember, Dragaerans consider themselves "human", but not > Easterners (Easterners, of course, reciprocate the thought). Ergo, > Vlad is not human, thus may leave the Halls. > But most of the gods are not Dragaerans either. Many of them helped the Jenoine create Dragerians from easterners. I find it hard to beleve they would create a race based loophole when they created the races. Francesco From howard at brazee.net Sat Feb 4 05:54:07 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 06:54:07 -0700 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <43E4B1FF.60407@brazee.net> Francesco Nicoletti wrote: >This thread has inspired me to three further questions. Given our >esteemed author's tendency to work through an unreliable narrator, with >his or own agenda, is there such a narrator for Brokedown Palace ? Who >would it be ? What is their agenda ? > My guess is that there is no such narrator. Steve wanted to do a political allegory and he set it in a world we are familiar with - giving us some more insights into that world - but the purpose of the novel is very different from the purpose of other books we have read set in that world. Again - this is my guess only. From mendo666 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 4 06:17:43 2006 From: mendo666 at hotmail.com (Ian Edwards) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 09:17:43 -0500 Subject: Dzur Cover Message-ID: Look what's on Amazon now. http://tinyurl.com/7nabk From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 07:13:20 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 08:13:20 -0700 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/06, Francesco Nicoletti wrote: > [snip] Fenario. That seem to leave a subset of with one member, Cawti. > If Cawti did write Brokedown Palace & Brigitta is her mother, perhaps > Cawti sees herself in the same catalyst role in Dargaeria as she wrote > for her mother in Brokedown Palace. > It would be interesting to see Fenario from another narrator's > perspective. Vald's would be nice. Would he see a shining new palace by > the river ? How unreliable is the narrator of Brokedown Palace? As far as I'm concerned, this is a Cool Idea. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Sat Feb 4 07:09:42 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 09:09:42 -0600 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E4C3B6.50009@comcast.net> Where's the flippin' wings????? Ian Edwards wrote: > Look what's on Amazon now. > > http://tinyurl.com/7nabk > > > > From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Feb 4 07:35:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:35:02 -0800 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <43E4C3B6.50009@comcast.net> References: <43E4C3B6.50009@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43E4C9A6.4070805@comcast.net> Mia McDavid wrote: > Where's the flippin' wings????? > > Ian Edwards wrote: > >> Look what's on Amazon now. >> >> http://tinyurl.com/7nabk > On the jhereg, right where they belong. Dzur do not have wings. Perhaps you are thinking of tiassa (which *do* have wings)? Majikjon From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Sat Feb 4 08:49:19 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:49:19 -0600 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <43E4C9A6.4070805@comcast.net> References: <43E4C3B6.50009@comcast.net> <43E4C9A6.4070805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43E4DB0F.7040804@comcast.net> You are quite correct; I was thinking of Tiassa. Jon Lincicum wrote: > Mia McDavid wrote: > >> Where's the flippin' wings????? >> >> Ian Edwards wrote: >> >>> Look what's on Amazon now. >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/7nabk >> >> > On the jhereg, right where they belong. > > Dzur do not have wings. > > Perhaps you are thinking of tiassa (which *do* have wings)? > > Majikjon > > > From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Sat Feb 4 09:34:22 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:34:22 -0500 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:35:02 PST." <43E4C9A6.4070805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200602041734.k14HYPOv003379@vice-grips.mit.edu> We all know that jhereg have 2 legs and 2 wings. Why Oh Why does all the cover art have 4-legged jhereg? > Mia McDavid wrote: > > > Where's the flippin' wings????? > > > > Ian Edwards wrote: > > > >> Look what's on Amazon now. > >> > >> http://tinyurl.com/7nabk > > > On the jhereg, right where they belong. > > Dzur do not have wings. > > Perhaps you are thinking of tiassa (which *do* have wings)? > > Majikjon > From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 10:48:03 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:48:03 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 2/4/06, Francesco Nicoletti wrote: > > [snip] Fenario. That seem to leave a subset of with one member, Cawti. > > If Cawti did write Brokedown Palace & Brigitta is her mother, perhaps > > Cawti sees herself in the same catalyst role in Dargaeria as she wrote > > for her mother in Brokedown Palace. > > It would be interesting to see Fenario from another narrator's > > perspective. Vald's would be nice. Would he see a shining new palace by > > the river ? How unreliable is the narrator of Brokedown Palace? > > As far as I'm concerned, this is a Cool Idea. > The idea that Cawti is the narrator of /Brokedown Palace/ is indeed Cool. It works well with the fact that she is a poet (which we learn when she recited a poem to Vlad on the return from Greenaere in /Phoenix/), which might further explain some of the odd depictions of things and events (I'm thinking of the River and the Tree, here) - she's using poetic license to recast events she doesn't quite fully know about. Assuming she wrote BP before she met Vlad, it also might also explain why she believes that with sufficient will and effort, the Cycle *can* be defeated, or at least made less important, and the downtrodden raised up. That is, Cawti has the example of the events of /Brokedown Palace/ to inspire her, and even if various events did not occur exactly as she depicted them, we have Verra's own word that as a result of the actions of a prince of Fenario, she (Verra) can no longer manifest in Fenario, so that core of truth has been confirmed. And perhaps Cawti hopes that something similar can be done against the Orb and the Cycle in the Empire. Also, finding out more about her own roots might explain why Cawti no longer uses a patronymic (that is, she discovered that she is in fact illegitimate). From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 10:59:23 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 10:59:23 -0800 Subject: the honing of Vlad :issola spoiler In-Reply-To: <43E483D0.4090506@pacific.net.au> References: <200602031526.k13FQPKf023966@vice-grips.mit.edu> <2ddbda5f0602030823x225e9544n47beeb6071964c07@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060203200828.02569ad8@cox.net> <43E483D0.4090506@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Francesco Nicoletti wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > At 11:23 AM 2/3/2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > >> > >> My impression is that the Lords of Judgment had something along the > >> lines of this enchantment in place: "no human blood may leave the > >> Halls of Judgment." > >> This ensures that undead (very pale, remember) can leave, and so can > >> Morrolan's corpse. Vlad gets away through the same loophole that got him > >> into Loraan's fortress. > > > > > > As I remember, Dragaerans consider themselves "human", but not > > Easterners (Easterners, of course, reciprocate the thought). Ergo, > > Vlad is not human, thus may leave the Halls. > > > But most of the gods are not Dragaerans either. Many of them helped the > Jenoine create Dragerians from easterners. > I find it hard to beleve they would create a race based loophole when > they created the races. > Not when they created the races, but when they built (or found, or whatever) the Paths of the Dead and the Halls of Judgement. The Paths & the Halls exist to sort out Dragaeran souls; thus Dragaeran souls (and the souls of living Dragaerans) are affected by the "keep the soul here" effect of the Paths & the Halls, except that the effect can also be countered by having god blood. Or something like that, I would guess. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 11:03:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:03:36 -0800 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <200602041734.k14HYPOv003379@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <43E4C9A6.4070805@comcast.net> <200602041734.k14HYPOv003379@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > We all know that jhereg have 2 legs and 2 wings. Why Oh Why does all > the cover art have 4-legged jhereg? > Because no-one conveyed this intelligence to the noble artist? The art looks like that of Stephen Hickman again, although it is not as Cool, I think, as that of /Dragon/, it still looks pretty Cool. He seems to still be using a cross between an iguana and a bearded lizard, with added wings, for his jhereg model. From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 11:35:15 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:35:15 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > Of course, one might well ask (and I have) why it takes Dragaerans so long > to study things? I can only conclude that the same factors that give > Dragaerans a long lifespan also result in them being very slow learners, > at least by our standards. (How old was Savn? 80? 90? And he still needed > his hand held to perform basic medicine, after studying it for decades?) > This is something I've been pondering for a while, and while I don't have a good answer, here's a wildly pararectal handwave: Consider that there is more than one type of memory, event memory, and skill memory. Event memory is broken down into short-term and long-term memory, and skill memory is built from long-term memories. Now, if you have really, really long lived entities, it would make sense for them to be able to retain strong, long-term memories throughout their lifetime. However, it ought not be *too* easy to form strong, long-term memories, because brain capacity is finite. So it therefore makes sense that it takes a lot longer for strong, long-term skill memories to form in beings that have a lifespan of 2000-3000 years. Hm. This is a more scientific breakdown of the different types of memory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory Fortunately for my handwave, many aspects of how memory works are still not well understood. But perhaps a 34- or 51-, or maybe even 68-year curriculum would be more appropriate for Dragaerans. Hm. 4 years (as in a 4-year college) is 4% of a human lifespan. 4% of, say, 2500, is a century or so. From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Feb 4 12:47:23 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:47:23 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: <43E512DB.7010505@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > >>Of course, one might well ask (and I have) why it takes Dragaerans so long >>to study things? I can only conclude that the same factors that give >>Dragaerans a long lifespan also result in them being very slow learners, >>at least by our standards. >> >> >This is something I've been pondering for a while, and while I don't >have a good answer, here's a wildly pararectal handwave: > >Consider that there is more than one type of memory, event memory, and >skill memory. Event memory is broken down into short-term and >long-term memory, and skill memory is built from long-term memories. >Now, if you have really, really long lived entities, it would make >sense for them to be able to retain strong, long-term memories >throughout their lifetime. However, it ought not be *too* easy to >form strong, long-term memories, because brain capacity is finite. So >it therefore makes sense that it takes a lot longer for strong, >long-term skill memories to form in beings that have a lifespan of >2000-3000 years. > > There's some merit in what you say--at the same time, we have examples in some cases (Morrolan's study of sorcery, for one) in which Dragaeran's seem to learn very rapidly. Now, since Morrolan thought he was a short-lived Easterner while he was growing up, he may be more used to learning at a faster pace than other Dragaerans. However, this might suggest that the slow pace of learning is more a cultural factor than a biological one. There's an example in /Dzur/ (or at least in KwH) that seems appropriate, but since not everyone's read it yet (and details may change before publication anyway), I will refrain from citing it. Remind me in August, I guess. ;-) >Hm. This is a more scientific breakdown of the different types of memory: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory > >Fortunately for my handwave, many aspects of how memory works are >still not well understood. > > Well, that's what makes it such a good area for speculation, I guess. ;-) >But perhaps a 34- or 51-, or maybe even 68-year curriculum would be >more appropriate for Dragaerans. Hm. 4 years (as in a 4-year >college) is 4% of a human lifespan. 4% of, say, 2500, is a century or >so. > Again, it likely depends mostly on the subject being studied. (And, of course, on how specialized the curriculum is). For example, there are plenty of simple subjects that we study that could be covered from top to bottom in a single 6-month course. Whereas training for an entire vocation is typically a 2-year, 4-year, or (in the case of an MD) 12-18 year process. But this point should be pretty obvious, I suppose. Majikjon From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Feb 4 13:32:08 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:32:08 -0500 Subject: Dzur Cover Message-ID: <24E2F8AA.368C064C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Feb/4/2006 2:03:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Davdi Silverrock writes: >On 2/4/06, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >> >> We all know that jhereg have 2 legs and 2 wings. Why Oh Why does all >> the cover art have 4-legged jhereg? Not all the cover art: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/c2/c11365.jpg > The art looks like that of Stephen Hickman again, Yup, that looks like his signature in the lower left corner. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Feb 4 17:21:56 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 17:21:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 1/31/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > > > > Of course, one might well ask (and I have) why it takes Dragaerans so long > > to study things? I can only conclude that the same factors that give > > Dragaerans a long lifespan also result in them being very slow learners, > > at least by our standards. (How old was Savn? 80? 90? And he still needed > > his hand held to perform basic medicine, after studying it for decades?) > > > > This is something I've been pondering for a while This is something I pondered yesterday for a few seconds. I was in a library, the kind of place I've been avoiding since college so I can get _something_ accomplished. Requiring a book, I went in and, passing the math section, had to suppress the urge to pick out a text and spend the next weeks or months learning about Applications of C*-algebras to Exceptional Holonomy Kaluza-Klein Manifolds or whatever, not including the weeks or months needed to acquire the necessary base knowledge. As I didn't pull out the books I didn't need, I was acutely aware that if I didn't expect to grow old in several decades the situation would be different. Someone remind me if we know how long it has been since Savn went out to the forest with a bucket? And how long it takes say to become a medicine man in Native American traditions? From sokerchick777 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 4 20:56:35 2006 From: sokerchick777 at yahoo.com (Sokerchick) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 20:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dzur - Cover art question Message-ID: <20060205045635.94730.qmail@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> While we're on the subject of cover art... Who did the cover art for "The Book of Taltos"? Vlad doesn't have moustache. I was under the assumption that this was one of his distinguishing features and he grew it spicifically because Dragereans can't. Katie --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 00:05:55 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 00:05:55 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > Someone remind me if we know how long it has been since Savn went out to > the forest with a bucket? According to Amazon search inside, he filled the bucket when he was twenty (which strikes me as being incredibly young for a Dragaeran). His apprenticeship has therefore lasted about 60 - 80 years. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 00:15:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 00:15:21 -0800 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <20060205045635.94730.qmail@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060205045635.94730.qmail@web33301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Sokerchick wrote: > While we're on the subject of cover art... > > Who did the cover art for "The Book of Taltos"? The cover art for that book is the same as the art on the original Ace PB of /Taltos/, and the copyright page for that says that the art is by Kinuko Craft. > Vlad doesn't have moustache. I was under the assumption > that this was one of his distinguishing features and he grew > it spicifically because Dragereans can't. True, but that would require that the artist read and understand the books very closely indeed. Which is unlikely if it's just another commission. Nevertheless, I think her art is Cool: http://www.kycraft.com/ I just don't think it's appropriate for the Vladiad. From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Feb 5 08:54:13 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 11:54:13 -0500 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <200602041734.k14HYPOv003379@vice-grips.mit.edu> References: <200602041734.k14HYPOv003379@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060205115203.0257e358@cox.net> To quote from another post in this thread (by David Silverrocke): "... that would require that the artist read and understand the books very closely indeed. Which is unlikely if it's just another commission." At 12:34 PM 2/4/2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: >We all know that jhereg have 2 legs and 2 wings. Why Oh Why does all >the cover art have 4-legged jhereg? > > > > Mia McDavid wrote: > > > > > Where's the flippin' wings????? > > > > > > Ian Edwards wrote: > > > > > >> Look what's on Amazon now. > > >> > > >> http://tinyurl.com/7nabk > > > > > On the jhereg, right where they belong. > > > > Dzur do not have wings. > > > > Perhaps you are thinking of tiassa (which *do* have wings)? > > > > Majikjon > > -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 13:38:06 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 13:38:06 -0800 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060205115203.0257e358@cox.net> References: <43E4C9A6.4070805@comcast.net> <200602041734.k14HYPOv003379@vice-grips.mit.edu> <6.2.5.6.2.20060205115203.0257e358@cox.net> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 12:34 PM 2/4/2006, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > >We all know that jhereg have 2 legs and 2 wings. Why Oh Why does all > >the cover art have 4-legged jhereg? > To quote from another post in this thread (by David Silverrocke): > > "... that would require that the artist read and understand the > books very closely indeed. Which is unlikely if it's just another > commission." > [un-top-postified] Actually, in this case, I think the artists were somewhat more justified. There is not a careful description of jhereg in the books, other than being reptilian and having both claws and wings. We know the correct appearance because Steve told us outright (and in addition, told Katharine Grantham so she could depict a jhereg correctly); book cover artists do not usually receive such direct information. They have to go by the manuscript that they receive (if they even receive a manuscript, rather than just a general desideratum ("A young man with a sword and a winged lizard")), and have no feedback if they create art that conflicts with the authors personal mental vision. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 13:47:13 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 13:47:13 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 2/4/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 2/4/06, Francesco Nicoletti wrote: > > > [snip] Fenario. That seem to leave a subset of with one member, Cawti. > > > If Cawti did write Brokedown Palace & Brigitta is her mother, perhaps > > > Cawti sees herself in the same catalyst role in Dargaeria as she wrote > > > for her mother in Brokedown Palace. > > The idea that Cawti is the narrator of /Brokedown Palace/ is indeed > Cool. It works well with the fact that she is a poet (which we learn > when she recited a poem to Vlad on the return from Greenaere in > /Phoenix/), which might further explain some of the odd depictions of > things and events (I'm thinking of the River and the Tree, here) - > she's using poetic license to recast events she doesn't quite fully > know about. Assuming she wrote BP before she met Vlad, it also might > also explain why she believes that with sufficient will and effort, > the Cycle *can* be defeated, or at least made less important, and the > downtrodden raised up. That is, Cawti has the example of the events of > /Brokedown Palace/ to inspire her, and even if various events did not > occur exactly as she depicted them, we have Verra's own word that as a > result of the actions of a prince of Fenario, she (Verra) can no > longer manifest in Fenario, so that core of truth has been confirmed. > And perhaps Cawti hopes that something similar can be done against the > Orb and the Cycle in the Empire. > > Also, finding out more about her own roots might explain why Cawti no > longer uses a patronymic (that is, she discovered that she is in fact > illegitimate). > [following up with some additional thoughts] There's also that line about Dragaerans having to watch out for "her", that is Cawti. If she herself wrote that, it's a rather self-referential acknowlegement of her being both an assassin and a political revolutionary (but from what I can tell, not a political assassin). Continuing with this pararectal conceit, I find myself wondering what her thoughts were on being given a commission to assassinate someone named "Taltos". Did she wonder if it was a sign that Vlad was unkillable? Did she have some half-hope that he would prove to be a similar support of political change in Dragaera that Bolk was in Fenario? Might that have been part of why she found herself attracted to him when the assassination attempt failed? Might that further have been why she was so disappointed by his complete political apathy (and indeed, antipathy), not too long after they married? Oh, well. Just some random maunderings. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Feb 5 14:28:03 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:28:03 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >Continuing with this pararectal conceit, I find myself wondering what >her thoughts were on being given a commission to assassinate someone >named "Taltos". Did she wonder if it was a sign that Vlad was >unkillable? Did she have some half-hope that he would prove to be a >similar support of political change in Dragaera that Bolk was in >Fenario? Might that have been part of why she found herself attracted > > Or maybe it's just a name. If a special forces assassin happened to be handed the name of a terrorist leader whose last name was "Goodman", would the assassin refuse to carry out the assignment, just because the person was a :"good man"? Just because someone is named "Taltos" doesn't mean that they *are* a Taltos, any more than a person with the last name "Bear" is a large furry creature who swims in mountain streams and likes to eat salmon. If Cawti even took notice of Vlad's last name, she probably just assumed that he'd picked that name out for himself when his family moved to Adrilankha. (Which may, indeed, be what happened. Noish-Pa might have thought that was a fitting patronymic for his family when he took the wife and kids and moved out west. Especially if Nosih-Pa has been living under an assumed name, which I suspect may be the case.) This brings up the point of Vlads baronetcy. Did it exist before Vlad's father bought it? According to the conversation with Paresh in /Teckla/, Vlad says it's a "real place with 2 or 3 families living there." "Taltos" sure seems like an unusual name for a Dragaeran to give to a region, which makes me suspect that the region was named after Vlad (or rather, after his father) rather than vice versa. >to him when the assassination attempt failed? Might that further have >been why she was so disappointed by his complete political apathy (and >indeed, antipathy), not too long after they married? > >Oh, well. Just some random maunderings. > > I think Cawti knew what she was getting into with Vlad. That one conversation they have in /Yendi/ when Vlad takes her to the party at Castle Black lays out pretty clearly where Vlad stands on things. I'd like to point out, that at *that* point, Cawti herself didn't appear to be especially *politically* active, either. That came later. On a tangent, to me, the fact that Cawti was an assassin and not very politically motivated prior to meeting Kelly makes me think that if she really *is* the author of /Brokedown Palace/, she doesn't write it until after Vlad had left home. (Maybe that's one of the things she's been doing during Vlad's absence?) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 16:09:04 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 16:09:04 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >Continuing with this pararectal conceit, I find myself wondering what > >her thoughts were on being given a commission to assassinate someone > >named "Taltos". Did she wonder if it was a sign that Vlad was > >unkillable? Did she have some half-hope that he would prove to be a > >similar support of political change in Dragaera that Bolk was in > >Fenario? Might that have been part of why she found herself attracted > > > > > Or maybe it's just a name. > > If a special forces assassin happened to be handed the name of a > terrorist leader whose last name was "Goodman", would the assassin > refuse to carry out the assignment, just because the person was a :"good > man"? I'm not sure I hold this notion so strongly as to want to defend it, but I think it deserves a little more clarification. In this case, the analogy is more along the lines of an assassin in our world who has become interested in Christianity, say, and has written a fictionalized life of Jesus, being given a target whose name is Jesus. Nor am I saying that she would have "refused" to carry out the assignment; I recall from the books how very determined she was to carry it out. It's just that it might affect how she thinks of him. Maybe. Or maybe not. > > If Cawti even took notice of Vlad's last name, she probably just assumed > that he'd picked that name out for himself when his family moved to > Adrilankha. (Which may, indeed, be what happened. Noish-Pa might have > thought that was a fitting patronymic for his family when he took the > wife and kids and moved out west. Especially if Nosih-Pa has been living > under an assumed name, which I suspect may be the case.) > > This brings up the point of Vlads baronetcy. Did it exist before Vlad's > father bought it? According to the conversation with Paresh in /Teckla/, > Vlad says it's a "real place with 2 or 3 families living there." > "Taltos" sure seems like an unusual name for a Dragaeran to give to a > region, which makes me suspect that the region was named after Vlad (or > rather, after his father) rather than vice versa. No, no. Noish-pa's name is also Taltos, and he did not buy citizenship (and Vlad's dad's citizenship does not appear to extend to parents). I think Vlad uses "Taltos" out of deference/respect for his Grandfather. I presume the baronetcy that Vlad owns is not used as part of his name. Although perhaps the baronetcy has been named Taltos, now that you mention it. Note that Vlad never refers to himself as being Count Szurke, either, although he has the excuse of being on the run for that. > > I think Cawti knew what she was getting into with Vlad. That one > conversation they have in /Yendi/ when Vlad takes her to the party at > Castle Black lays out pretty clearly where Vlad stands on things. I'd > like to point out, that at *that* point, Cawti herself didn't appear to > be especially *politically* active, either. That came later. > > On a tangent, to me, the fact that Cawti was an assassin and not very > politically motivated prior to meeting Kelly makes me think that if she > really *is* the author of /Brokedown Palace/, she doesn't write it until > after Vlad had left home. (Maybe that's one of the things she's been > doing during Vlad's absence?) > That's also reasonable. We may find out in August... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Feb 5 17:12:14 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:12:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > In this case, the analogy is more along the lines of an assassin in > our world who has become interested in Christianity, say, and has > written a fictionalized life of Jesus, being given a target whose name > is Jesus. Perhaps more interesting to me would be if C had written BP after the events of Phoenix, rather than before having met V, which (correct me if I'm wrong) is the timeframe you seem to have in mind. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Feb 5 10:25:41 2006 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:25:41 +0100 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> Message-ID: <43E64325.59A2@ecity.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > This is something I've been pondering for a while, and while I don't > have a good answer, here's a wildly pararectal handwave: > > Consider that there is more than one type of memory, event memory, and > skill memory. Event memory is broken down into short-term and > long-term memory, and skill memory is built from long-term memories. > Now, if you have really, really long lived entities, it would make > sense for them to be able to retain strong, long-term memories > throughout their lifetime. However, it ought not be *too* easy to > form strong, long-term memories, because brain capacity is finite. So > it therefore makes sense that it takes a lot longer for strong, > long-term skill memories to form in beings that have a lifespan of > 2000-3000 years. Is this an assumption that the Jenoine fiddled with how long it takes to form a memory on Dragaerans while they were fiddling with everything else (ie, if you're looking for differences between long-lived and short-lived versions, maybe you need to rearrange how memories are formed, otherwise your long-lived versions don't learn anything past their first century just like your short-lived versions), or are you assuming that the Jenoine didn't make any changes to how Easterners, and therefore Dragaerans, create memories, and that because of that, Dragaerans have real problems finding places to put their new memories after their first century or two (ie, when they're considered real adults?) (Not sure if it's evidence or not, but isn't there someplace where Vlad notes that Dragaerans can tell the difference between brandy and wine, but they don't call them separate names? Would a tendency to lump stuff together, rather than splitting it, be a memory adaptation for long-lived types?) Karen From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 17:58:18 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:58:18 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <43E64325.59A2@ecity.net> References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> <43E64325.59A2@ecity.net> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, K Kuhn wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > > This is something I've been pondering for a while, and while I don't > > have a good answer, here's a wildly pararectal handwave: > > > > Consider that there is more than one type of memory, event memory, and > > skill memory. Event memory is broken down into short-term and > > long-term memory, and skill memory is built from long-term memories. > > Now, if you have really, really long lived entities, it would make > > sense for them to be able to retain strong, long-term memories > > throughout their lifetime. However, it ought not be *too* easy to > > form strong, long-term memories, because brain capacity is finite. So > > it therefore makes sense that it takes a lot longer for strong, > > long-term skill memories to form in beings that have a lifespan of > > 2000-3000 years. > > Is this an assumption that the Jenoine fiddled with how long it takes to > form a memory on Dragaerans while they were fiddling with everything > else (ie, if you're looking for differences between long-lived and > short-lived versions, maybe you need to rearrange how memories are > formed, otherwise your long-lived versions don't learn anything past > their first century just like your short-lived versions), Yes, something like that. I mean, it follows from the fact that their maturation rate appears to be a great deal slower than that of humans (Easterners) that *something* has been slowed down in the way the Dragaeran brain develops and works. They don't seem to have a generally slower metabolism or slower mental response, so the best extrapolation is to look to memory formation as the explanation of the slow maturation rate. > > (Not sure if it's evidence or not, but isn't there someplace where Vlad > notes that Dragaerans can tell the difference between brandy and wine, > but they don't call them separate names? Would a tendency to lump stuff > together, rather than splitting it, be a memory adaptation for > long-lived types?) > Perhaps. I do note that Dragaerans do seem to try and simplify words and phrases as much as possible. Perhaps this is a cultural trend which reflects a general neurological setup, but I would be leery of making any definite statements without a greater background in neurology and linguistics. Ultimately, it may simply be that culturally, they generally don't care that much about the way a refreshment has been created; they just want to drink it. Caring about something means that one pays attention to fine distinction in varieties, and names them. I'm sure that Dragaerans involved in trading or creating brandy pay attention to the difference, since they have a financial stake involved. And as an analogy, consider that most Americans don't care whether a beer is a lager or an ale or a lambec or whatever - they just want Miller or Budweiser or Coors in large quantities (feh). And to the left, beer fans do care, and tend to be more aware of the distinctions. So I would tentatively conclude that the wine-brandy lack of distinction is not that meaningful. Perhaps our resident linguist will comment at some point. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 18:12:38 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:12:38 -0800 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <43E512DB.7010505@comcast.net> References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> <43E512DB.7010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > >Consider that there is more than one type of memory, event memory, and > >skill memory. Event memory is broken down into short-term and > >long-term memory, and skill memory is built from long-term memories. > >Now, if you have really, really long lived entities, it would make > >sense for them to be able to retain strong, long-term memories > >throughout their lifetime. However, it ought not be *too* easy to > >form strong, long-term memories, because brain capacity is finite. So > >it therefore makes sense that it takes a lot longer for strong, > >long-term skill memories to form in beings that have a lifespan of > >2000-3000 years. > > > > > There's some merit in what you say--at the same time, we have examples > in some cases (Morrolan's study of sorcery, for one) in which > Dragaeran's seem to learn very rapidly. Ah, but this was a Dragaeran writing about a Dragaeran. Perhaps for Paarfi, Morrolan's rate of learning *was* fast, while for an Easterner, it would appear only slightly slow. > Now, since Morrolan thought he was a short-lived Easterner while he was > growing up, he may be more used to learning at a faster pace than other > Dragaerans. However, this might suggest that the slow pace of learning > is more a cultural factor than a biological one. Somehow, I don't think so. Savn appeared to be making a real effort remembering the anatomy lesson he had learned, when he was operating on Vlad. However, as a modification to my notion, perhaps the slowness in learning is more obvious when Dragaerans are young and clumsy, and have a great deal to learn. Since Morrolan's brain had mostly completed developing before he started learning sorcery, perhaps he could then focus more on learning sorcery faster. And finally, perhaps sorcery can itself be used to help oneself learn (that is, creating sorcerous modifications of one's own neurology, just as sorcerous healing can repair body tissue), and so once you pass a certain threshold of sorcerous knowledge, further knowlege can be learned and retained faster. So the many years I suggested for the curricula might not be necessary. From wilson.max at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 18:18:56 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:18:56 -0700 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: <43E64325.59A2@ecity.net> References: <43DEE2EB.2040704@the-bat.net> <43E64325.59A2@ecity.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602051818x7e78ad2cjd66e9db5d34e7ffe@mail.gmail.com> On 2/5/06, K Kuhn wrote: > > (Not sure if it's evidence or not, but isn't there someplace where Vlad > notes that Dragaerans can tell the difference between brandy and wine, > but they don't call them separate names? Would a tendency to lump stuff > together, rather than splitting it, be a memory adaptation for > long-lived types?) > The only Dragaeran I know of who calls it "brandy" is Kiera. I'd call that a strike against it being an age-related phenomenon. ;) Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From rone at ennui.org Sun Feb 5 18:25:09 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060206022510.2BF0A682C1@boredom.ennui.org> Ian Edwards writes: Look what's on Amazon now. http://tinyurl.com/7nabk "Buy this book with Class Dis-Mythed SC by Robert Asprin today!" Eep. Anyway, the teaser blurb on the cover sounds REALLY frickin' cool. rone -- Frossie: Tits have no muscles. Mike Andrews: Eppur si muove. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 18:45:18 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:45:18 -0800 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <20060206022510.2BF0A682C1@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060206022510.2BF0A682C1@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, rone wrote: > > Anyway, the teaser blurb on the cover sounds REALLY frickin' cool. > I was wondering if the previous thread about Vlad being known to be able to create amorphia might tie in somehow. The ability is rare; and according to Paarfi, actually getting the purple stones (without the ability) requires travelling to the Great Sea of Chaos and trusting to the luck of finding them. Perhaps the stones are valued by sorcerers? Speculation: Head of the Left Hand of the Jhereg says to Vlad: "You can create chaos stones. That's worth a lot to us. Make us a bunch, and we'll help you get the Jhereg Council off your back." Although with more stuff going on, of course. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 20:19:46 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:19:46 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Steve Rapaport wrote: > Just finished "Brokedown Palace" and after getting over enjoying the good > read, (which it was!) I realized I was really left dissatisfied. > > It's not unusual for a story to leave minor details and players incomplete, > but it seemed to me that this book left ALL the major details and players > incomplete. Everything important. The events are there, but that's it. > > Looking it over again, pretty much every major thing that happens, happens > not because some human decides to do it, but because some supernatural > agency decides to. And those agencies are more than half unidentified. > The humans are, for the most part, unwitting pawns, and the players and > their motivations are left mysterious. Even knowing what I know from the > rest of Brust's books, I was unable to guess what really went on. So feel > free to correct me if I've missed something, but-- > > : > (Sort-of spoilers implied in the questions here) > > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > What is Verra trying to accomplish with her support of those she supports? > Who is working against her? > Why is it necessary to move so drastically against her? Wouldn't a chat > help? (Memo to self, add the following to Speculation:Brokedown Castle) My current pararectal speculation is that Verra is motivated by her desire to prevent the East from progressing beyond a certain point because she supports the Dragaeran Empire over the East (possibly because implements the Cycle, and the Cycle protects against the Jenoine). So while she appears to help Laszlo and the Crown, she is, in the long term, working against them. This is why she enforces on the one hand, stagnation, and on the other, regression and decay. Notice the conflicts that are kept boiling in the East. The Northmen invade, occupy Fenario for a while, and are driven back. The southerners, too, don't seem to be interested in peaceful co-existence; they're called "marauders". That's a way to keep people from developing advances in civilization: make sure that they're always on the attack or defense, or in fear from attack. And against these enemies, what does she give Fenario? Why, a magic sword. Real nice of her - until you pay attention to how the sword works. Notice how, whenever it's used, the wielder is driven into an insane, berserker killing spree, killing as many of his own people (it's always a king or prince of Fenario) as of the enemy? That's not a gift, that's a damn population control mechanism. Note the description of the architecture of the Palace itself; how it has sandstone in its foundation. Sandstone is usually a weak and crumbly rock; it makes for really pretty facings and exteriors - but why would anyone sane put it in the foundation of large building, holding everything up? Well, maybe if they received a dream from the Goddess, putting her architectural oar in... Anyway, if her motivation was so opposed to beneficial change for Easterners, a "chat" wouldn't have changed her mind. > Is the River a power in itself or a representative of some other power? That's a trickier one. But it may be that there is a god (or faction of gods) that is in favor of supporting Easterners (or Fenarians), and the River was the manifestation, or the tool, of one or more of them. > Is Brigitta a power in herself or a representative of that same power? Oh, I think she represents herself. But perhaps she recognized the god (or gods) involved, and decided that they were in the right. > Ditto Bolk? He appears to have been definitely a god or demon. But exactly how powerful he was or who he was allied with, well, who can say? > Why must Sandor be eliminated? We have seen that a goddess can be invited to a place where she is unable to manifest. It is quite possible that he would have the means, and motivation, to undo everything that Miklos had done by re inviting Verra back to Fenario, and starting the whole process of control and decay, all over again. > Mom n Dad? Dunno. From an allegorical perspective, though, the revolution must sweep away the feudal remnants along with the bourgeoisie. > Reszo? Who can say? > And -- Why does Brigitta have to leave? She never explains really. My current speculation is that she might be a half-Dragaeran, which would lead to her being as conflicted as she was. > In most basic terms, is this a Gods vs. Nature, Gods vs. Gods, or Gods vs. > Man, or Man vs. Man struggle? Yes. > > So any theories, or am I just questioning the ineffable? > Yes. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 20:23:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:23:27 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 2/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > > > > None of the above. All of the above. Ultimately, it's a struggle of Death > > versus Birth and the dawning of a new age. The Palace isn't just a Palace. > > It's a symbol of the kingdom and, in a larger sense, of Mankind. > > Actually, the Palace is a pun. Capitol => Capital. Tee hee. > > I need to read Anti-duhring so I can get that Brokedown_Palace:Meta > article finished. > And, for the interested, while I have not yet read Anti-Duhring (anyone getting through it, by the way? It looks to be long), here's the second draft of "/Brokedown Palace/ as a Marxist Allegory", from about 3 years ago. The great thing about Wikis is that one can go back and edit them, and I shall indeed do so. http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Meta:Brokedown_Palace From felixeisen at yahoo.com Sun Feb 5 20:25:40 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060206042540.14804.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> This brings up the point of Vlads baronetcy. Did it exist before Vlad's father bought it? According to the conversation with Paresh in /Teckla/, Vlad says it's a "real place with 2 or 3 families living there." "Taltos" sure seems like an unusual name for a Dragaeran to give to a region, which makes me suspect that the region was named after Vlad (or rather, after his father) rather than vice versa. Majikjon Vlad isn't the Baronet of Taltos; he's the Baronet Taltos. 'Taltos' is not a place, it's a personal name; the current Baronet of Redgrave is Sir Nicholas Hickman Ponsonby Bacon -- who would be referred to in Dragaera as Baronet Bacon, not as Baronet Redgrave. Vlad, since he has an -actual- location -- which actually gets identified at some point -- is 'Baronet of X', and is addressed as 'Baronet Lastname'. For what it's worth, Sir Nicholas is addressed as 'Sir Nicholas Bacon, Bnt' -- a letter with which form of address I believe Vlad receives at the beginning of Dragon.... S. Thomas Crain Author-In-Training --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Feb 5 20:49:39 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 20:49:39 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <20060206042540.14804.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060206042540.14804.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E6D563.5010706@comcast.net> Felix Eisen wrote: >Vlad isn't the Baronet of Taltos; he's the Baronet Taltos. 'Taltos' is not a place, it's a personal name; the current Baronet of Redgrave is Sir Nicholas Hickman Ponsonby Bacon -- who would be referred to in Dragaera as Baronet Bacon, not as Baronet Redgrave. Vlad, since he has an -actual- location -- which actually gets identified at some point -- is 'Baronet of X', and is addressed as 'Baronet Lastname'. For what it's worth, Sir Nicholas is addressed as 'Sir Nicholas Bacon, Bnt' -- a letter with which form of address I believe Vlad receives at the beginning of Dragon.... > > S. Thomas Crain > Author-In-Training > /Yendi/, Chapter 9, page 248, (omnibus) [Cite] "Greetings my lords," I said, "How may I serve the Empire?" The one who was looking at me said, "You are Baronet Vlad of Taltos?" He pronounced it "Taltoss", instead of "Taltosh", so he must have had written orders, for whatever that was worth. [End Cite] Now, this particular Phoenix Guard was obviously not familiar with the name, and may not have been familiar with the baronetcy that is Vlad's (whatever it is called), but being phrased this way does seem to imply that "Taltos" is the name of the place, as well as the name of the person. For whatever that's worth. This may, of course, merely have been laziness/ignorance on the part of this particular Dragonlord. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Feb 5 20:38:11 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 20:38:11 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > >>If Cawti even took notice of Vlad's last name, she probably just assumed >>that he'd picked that name out for himself when his family moved to >>Adrilankha. (Which may, indeed, be what happened. Noish-Pa might have >>thought that was a fitting patronymic for his family when he took the >>wife and kids and moved out west. Especially if Nosih-Pa has been living >>under an assumed name, which I suspect may be the case.) >> >>This brings up the point of Vlads baronetcy. Did it exist before Vlad's >>father bought it? According to the conversation with Paresh in /Teckla/, >>Vlad says it's a "real place with 2 or 3 families living there." >>"Taltos" sure seems like an unusual name for a Dragaeran to give to a >>region, which makes me suspect that the region was named after Vlad (or >>rather, after his father) rather than vice versa. >> >> > >No, no. Noish-pa's name is also Taltos, and he did not buy >citizenship (and Vlad's dad's citizenship does not appear to extend to >parents). I think Vlad uses "Taltos" out of deference/respect for his >Grandfather. I presume the baronetcy that Vlad owns is not used as >part of his name. Although perhaps the baronetcy has been named >Taltos, now that you mention it. > > Well, this is a part of my point, really. Taltos was probably Vlad's family name long before his dad ever bought a title. However, I seem to remember a pair of Phoenix Guards showing up at Vlad's place of business asking for him as the "Baronet of Taltos". (In /Yendi/, I believe, shortly before he gets a beating). This makes me think the "Taltos" Baronetcy is named after Vlad's family. (Which name was probably chosen by Noish-pa. Unless, of course, it happened to be Noish-pa's name back in Fenario. This, to me, seems unlikely, as it's not a very *humble* name for a Fenarian commoner to use within his own country. It would be kind of like someone in this country using the last name :"Christ".) >Note that Vlad never refers to himself as being Count Szurke, either, >although he has the excuse of being on the run for that. > > Well, I don't seem to recall him using *any* patronymic while he's on the run (in /Athyra/ and /Orca/). And, of course, in /Issola/, he hanging out with people who already knew him well from before. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 21:03:29 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:03:29 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > (Which name > was probably chosen by Noish-pa. Unless, of course, it happened to be > Noish-pa's name back in Fenario. This, to me, seems unlikely, as it's > not a very *humble* name for a Fenarian commoner to use within his own > country. It would be kind of like someone in this country using the last > name :"Christ".) Hm. Despite my earlier analogy, I don't think that's the case. I used "Jesus" because I thought that "taltos" might have a similar great personal significance for Cawti, not because "taltos" has such great significance for all Easterners. "Taltos" means... well, see "Taltos (legend)" in the Wikipedia. So since it can also mean "priest-magician", or "shaman", while calling oneself that is a bit self-inflating, it's nowhere near as incredibly important as Christ is to Christians. And since Noish-pa is indeed a skilled witch, perhaps he called himself that as an honest self-appraisal. Truth in advertising, as it were. Heh. From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Feb 5 22:09:34 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:09:34 -0500 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > (Which name > was probably chosen by Noish-pa. Unless, of course, it happened to be > Noish-pa's name back in Fenario. This, to me, seems unlikely, as it's > not a very *humble* name for a Fenarian commoner to use within his own > country. It would be kind of like someone in this country using the last > name :"Christ".) I have heard of a surname "Christ", pronounced with a short "i" to rhyme with "mist". -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Feb 5 22:06:01 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:06:01 -0500 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <20060206042540.14804.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> References: <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <20060206042540.14804.qmail@web52007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010153.02584308@cox.net> At 11:25 PM 2/5/2006, Felix Eisen wrote: >This brings up the point of Vlads baronetcy. Did it exist before Vlad's >father bought it? According to the conversation with Paresh in /Teckla/, >Vlad says it's a "real place with 2 or 3 families living there." >"Taltos" sure seems like an unusual name for a Dragaeran to give to a >region, which makes me suspect that the region was named after Vlad (or >rather, after his father) rather than vice versa. > > Majikjon >Vlad isn't the Baronet of Taltos; he's the Baronet >Taltos. 'Taltos' is not a place, it's a personal name; the current >Baronet of Redgrave is Sir Nicholas Hickman Ponsonby Bacon -- who >would be referred to in Dragaera as Baronet Bacon, not as Baronet >Redgrave. Vlad, since he has an -actual- location -- which >actually gets identified at some point -- is 'Baronet of X', and is >addressed as 'Baronet Lastname'. For what it's worth, Sir Nicholas >is addressed as 'Sir Nicholas Bacon, Bnt' -- a letter with which >form of address I believe Vlad receives at the beginning of Dragon.... We have very little to go on to know the nature of Dragaeran titles, other than the use of them varies by House (Teckla have none, Orca seem to equate titles to position held, for instance). In our world, the only place that has baronets is the UK, where it is a kind of hereditary knighthood, nothing more. In the Jhereg, it evidently is somewhat more like a minor peerage. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 22:11:40 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 22:11:40 -0800 Subject: George Lavode? Message-ID: In doing some name research, I came across this: http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=gyo12rgy [cite] GY?RGY Gender: Masculine Usage: Hungarian Pronounced: JUURJ [key] Extra Info: Popularity, Related Names, Namesakes, Name Days Options: Contribute Information, Add to List Hungarian form of GEORGE [end cite] Well. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 22:34:13 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 22:34:13 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > (Which name > > was probably chosen by Noish-pa. Unless, of course, it happened to be > > Noish-pa's name back in Fenario. This, to me, seems unlikely, as it's > > not a very *humble* name for a Fenarian commoner to use within his own > > country. It would be kind of like someone in this country using the last > > name :"Christ".) > > I have heard of a surname "Christ", pronounced with a short "i" to > rhyme with "mist". > Which is, in point of fact, closer to the proper way to pronounce a truncation of the Greek word khrist?s (???????). That is, as I understand it, "iota" would always be pronounced as a short "i" sound (a 'continental' i, it says). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language And as for surnames... Oy vey iz mir. Head explody. Not NSFW, but it is kinda borderline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Christ From rone at ennui.org Sun Feb 5 23:02:57 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: George Lavode? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060206070257.5B0AC682CC@boredom.ennui.org> Davdi Silverrock writes: In doing some name research, I came across this: http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=gyo12rgy GY?RGY Usage: Hungarian Hungarian form of GEORGE Well. Well, what? You didn't realize that Gyorg is a form of George? Or are you surprised that a Dragaeran wizard has an Eastern name? rone -- Frossie: Tits have no muscles. Mike Andrews: Eppur si muove. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 23:22:59 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:22:59 -0800 Subject: George Lavode? In-Reply-To: <20060206070257.5B0AC682CC@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20060206070257.5B0AC682CC@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, rone wrote: > Davdi Silverrock writes: >> In doing some name research, I came across this: >> http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=gyo12rgy >> GY?RGY >> Usage: Hungarian >> Hungarian form of GEORGE > > Well. > > Well, what? You didn't realize that Gyorg is a form of George? Well, this may astonish you, but things that are totally obvious to some are completely new and opaque to others, until that one little detail is actually disclosed at some point. I only learned that "Kieron" is an Irish name a few years ago, for example. And, well, Steve totally missed out on a chance to show off his Hungarian pronunciation skills when he recorded "Gyorg" with hard "G" sounds. > Frossie: Tits have no muscles. > Mike Andrews: Eppur si muove. *Snork*. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Feb 6 04:30:04 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:30:04 -0500 Subject: What's a Duhring? Message-ID: <43E7414C.9030003@email.ers.usda.gov> Re-copied to the list from Howard Brazee: My basic political beliefs are: 1. Power corrupts. 2. People are comfortable with an authority to tell them how to behave and what is the right way of things. Wrong is what makes people uncomfortable. Political theories that don't recognize these are interesting, but fatally flawed. But let's look at this in the context of a world where you *know* there are gods - whom you know are not omnipotent and omniscient. Dragaerans don't seem overly concerned with making the world right. They are more interested in being true to their natures while recognizing that others have different natures. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Feb 6 06:56:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 06:56:04 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/05/06 10:34 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. >And as for surnames... Oy vey iz mir. Head explody. >Not NSFW, but it is kinda borderline: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Christ Given her, uh, profession, what are the chances that this is actually her real name? Majikjon From sraun at fireopal.org Mon Feb 6 07:21:39 2006 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:21:39 -0600 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> Message-ID: <20060206152139.GB26014@fireopal.org> On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 01:09:34AM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > (Which name > > was probably chosen by Noish-pa. Unless, of course, it happened to be > > Noish-pa's name back in Fenario. This, to me, seems unlikely, as it's > > not a very *humble* name for a Fenarian commoner to use within his own > > country. It would be kind of like someone in this country using the last > > name :"Christ".) > > I have heard of a surname "Christ", pronounced with a short "i" to > rhyme with "mist". I know someone with that last name and that pronunciation. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Feb 6 08:41:52 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 11:41:52 -0500 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E77C50.7060608@earthlink.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Davdi Silverrock >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >02/05/06 10:34 PM > >To >Dragaera List >cc > >Subject >Re: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. > > >>And as for surnames... Oy vey iz mir. Head explody. >>Not NSFW, but it is kinda borderline: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Christ >> >> > >Given her, uh, profession, what are the chances that this is actually her >real name? > > The chances are 0. Her real name is listed on the sidebar. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Feb 6 10:27:08 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:27:08 -0500 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <2ddbda5f0602040713v603b4abbwfad46975dc8dda54@mail.gmail.com> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060206132117.0257d120@cox.net> At 01:34 AM 2/6/2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 2/5/06, Peter H. Granzeau >wrote: > On 2/5/06, Jon Lincicum > wrote: > > > (Which >name > > was probably chosen by Noish-pa. >Unless, of course, it happened to be > > >Noish-pa's name back in Fenario. This, to me, >seems unlikely, as it's > > not a very *humble* >name for a Fenarian commoner to use within his >own > > country. It would be kind of like >someone in this country using the last > > name >:"Christ".) > > I have heard of a surname >"Christ", pronounced with a short "i" to > rhyme >with "mist". > Which is, in point of fact, >closer to the proper way to pronounce a >truncation of the Greek word khrist??s >(??????????????). That is, as I understand it, >"iota" would always be pronounced as a short "i" >sound (a 'continental' i, it >says). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language And >as for surnames... Oy vey iz mir. Head >explody. Not NSFW, but it is kinda >borderline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_Christ Sorry for quoting this mess, but it is the only message I have received with the text by John Lincicum in it (and may I ask David Silverrock what he does to so badly ruin the formatting of messages he quotes, anyway?) Near as I can tell from the Wikipedia article, iota was pronounced as 'ee", like the European i. In English, a long i is pronounced eye, the short i as it is pronounced in it or gift. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 11:06:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:06:39 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060206132117.0257d120@cox.net> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206132117.0257d120@cox.net> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > Sorry for quoting this mess, but it is the only > message I have received with the text by John > Lincicum in it (and may I ask David Silverrock > what he does to so badly ruin the formatting >of messages he quotes, anyway?) > Yow. I didn't do *that*. You can see the original message, with nicely indented quotes and spaces and everything, here: http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2006q1/001809.html Perhaps the inclusion of non-Latin characters confused your mail server or mail user agent? I'll have to remember not to do that again. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 6 11:18:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E67BF3.1040207@comcast.net> <43E6D2B3.50302@comcast.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206010752.0257b7a0@cox.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060206132117.0257d120@cox.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Not NSFW might not jump out to everyone as "Not not safe for work". Incidentally, re "Gyorg", arguments on the question should take the Texts status as translations into account. The name in question might be chosen to indicate all sorts of things. Compare Tolkien's appendix on the actual names of the Hobbit characters. From steve at romlin.com Mon Feb 6 13:08:33 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:08:33 +0100 Subject: Italian grammar 101 Message-ID: Wouldn't that be "Eppure si muovano" (and yet they move themselves)? Or do I misunderstand? > > Frossie: Tits have no muscles. > > Mike Andrews: Eppur si muove. > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Feb 6 13:15:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:15:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Italian grammar 101 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Steve Rapaport wrote: > Wouldn't that be "Eppure si muovano" (and yet they move themselves)? Or do > I misunderstand? Muovono I think. Anyway, it's a reference to Galileo muttering under his breath after being forced to recant his theory about the earth moving around the sun. From scs at di.org Mon Feb 6 13:25:44 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:25:44 -0500 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <43E4C3B6.50009@comcast.net> References: <43E4C3B6.50009@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060206212544.GD18185@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 09:09:42AM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > Where's the flippin' wings????? You mean flappin' wings, right? :-) -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au Mon Feb 6 23:08:03 2006 From: francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au (Francesco Nicoletti) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:08:03 +1100 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: <43E4B1FF.60407@brazee.net> References: <147901c6284f$d8eac5f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <43E47EBC.8020006@pacific.net.au> <43E4B1FF.60407@brazee.net> Message-ID: <43E84753.3040700@pacific.net.au> Howard Brazee wrote: > Francesco Nicoletti wrote: > >> This thread has inspired me to three further questions. Given our >> esteemed author's tendency to work through an unreliable narrator, >> with his or own agenda, is there such a narrator for Brokedown Palace >> ? Who would it be ? What is their agenda ? >> > My guess is that there is no such narrator. Steve wanted to do a > political allegory and he set it in a world we are familiar with - > giving us some more insights into that world - but the purpose of the > novel is very different from the purpose of other books we have read > set in that world. > > Again - this is my guess only. > I mostly agree with you. Any parallels between Brokedown Palace & Teckla probably come about because a) they are both about revolutions & b) they were written (well copyrighted) within a year of each other. But speculation is fun. Francesco From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Feb 7 09:25:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:25:07 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Davdi Silverrock Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/05/06 09:03 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. >"Taltos" means... well, see "Taltos (legend)" in the Wikipedia. So >since it can also mean "priest-magician", or "shaman", while calling >oneself that is a bit self-inflating, it's nowhere near as incredibly >important as Christ is to Christians. And since Noish-pa is indeed a >skilled witch, perhaps he called himself that as an honest >self-appraisal. Truth in advertising, as it were. Heh. One of my notions that has been building steam in my own mind is that Noish-pa is actually Ambrus the Fat from Fenario. (See http://dragaera.wikicities.com/wiki/Speculation:Ambrus_the_Fat for justifications of this) This could have put him in a unique position to have witnessed the events of /Brokedown Palace/ (Who notices a servant lurking in the background of important events?). Therefore; perhaps Noish-pa (not Cawti) is the actual narrator of BP? Or maybe he collaborated with Cawti? Or just gave her background information as she was writing it by herself? The one knock against the "Noish-pa-as-exclusive-author-of-BP" theory is that he probably wouldn't characterize the Demon Goddess the way it is shown in the book. Of course, the fact that she is *always* called the "Demon Goddess" in BP, and never by name is something that is very much something Noish-pa *would* do. (Of course, other Fenarians are probably the same way when referring to Her.) Another thought that occurs--perhaps it was the banishment of the Demon Goddess that prompted Noish-pa to leave Fenario in the first place? This idea even seems fairly likely, given Noish-pa's reverence for Verra. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Feb 7 10:28:05 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 10:28:05 -0800 Subject: Spoiler thread on Brokedown Palace, need to know. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <108701c62c14$3d0120d0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> _Brokedown Palace_ has the same "internal author" as _Athyra_. That is to say, none at all. If we accept the premise that Steve has a conduit to Drageara that allows Vlad to dictate to him and allows him interview Paarfi and acquire his writings, then it's no stretch to imagine that he also has some way of viewing events there independently. The only author is Steve himself, revealing the events that he observed. I personally wouldn't get overly involved in trying to tie the people and events in _Brokedown Palace_ too closely to the Vladiad. It's a different story in a different time and place. It's main value vis-a-vis the Vladiad is that it gives us something to anchor Vlad's heritage to. From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue Feb 7 16:19:36 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:19:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad's Baronetcy In-Reply-To: <20060206070257.5B0AC682CC@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20060208001936.37107.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com> Damn. We have Cawti's title -- Countess of Lostguard Cleft and Environs -- from Phoenix. I could have -sworn- there was a scene where Vlad and Cawti were formally introduced in court by somebody who would know, but I damn well can't find the thing. Alas... S. Thomas Crain Author-In-Training --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed Feb 8 08:31:35 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:31:35 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> FYI, for anyone who's been wanting to pick up a copy of the Jhereg graphic novel (despite all warning about how bad it was), a limited number of copies are on a deep discount sale this week at Mile High Comics: http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/genresearch.cgi?action=issue&issue=43878317612%201 Charley Sumner "In my fantasy world, we have pie." From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 8 08:43:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:43:32 -0800 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Charles Sumner Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/08/06 08:31 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Jhereg Graphic Novel >FYI, for anyone who's been wanting to pick up a copy of the Jhereg graphic >novel (despite all warning about how bad it was), a limited number of >copies are on a deep discount sale this week at Mile High Comics: >http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/genresearch.cgi?action=issue&issue=43878317612%201 Hmmm... Maybe we should start a fundraiser to buy up all the copies they have so we can burn them? The scans I've seen of that things are truly wretched. Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Feb 8 11:44:35 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:44:35 -0500 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Feb 2006 00:15:21 PST." Message-ID: <200602081944.k18JiaqA009832@vice-grips.mit.edu> Is there a reason the author/publisher can't tell the artist something like "a jhereg is a winged lizard, with 2 legs and 2 wings. Vlad is a mid-twenties male human with brown hair and a mustache."? If the artist is just told to go draw a jhereg, how does he find out what a jhereg looks like in the first place? > On 2/4/06, Sokerchick wrote: > > While we're on the subject of cover art... > > > > Who did the cover art for "The Book of Taltos"? > > The cover art for that book is the same as the art on the original Ace > PB of /Taltos/, and the copyright page for that says that the art is > by Kinuko Craft. > > > Vlad doesn't have moustache. I was under the assumption > > that this was one of his distinguishing features and he grew > > it spicifically because Dragereans can't. > > True, but that would require that the artist read and understand the > books very closely indeed. Which is unlikely if it's just another > commission. > > Nevertheless, I think her art is Cool: > > http://www.kycraft.com/ > > I just don't think it's appropriate for the Vladiad. From sokerchick777 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 8 11:53:11 2006 From: sokerchick777 at yahoo.com (Sokerchick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:53:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <200602081944.k18JiaqA009832@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20060208195311.72880.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Can the author ask for a "redraw" or a rework of the original art? I would assume that a key feature of the character (like Vlad's moustache) would be something the author would say "Hey you should probably add that" or does the author not see the print till later and doesn't have a chance to ask for things like that? Do these transactions (for lack of a better word) go on between the author and artist or the artist and publishing company where the publishing company can say yes or no to a particular cover art work? Thanks! Katie --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Feb 8 12:01:05 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Hmmm... Maybe we should start a fundraiser to buy up all the copies they > have so we can burn them? Can I object to the latter part of the suggestion without being a humorless scold? From howard at brazee.net Wed Feb 8 12:04:19 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:04:19 -0700 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <20060208195311.72880.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060208195311.72880.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43EA4EC3.9050502@brazee.net> Sokerchick wrote: >Can the author ask for a "redraw" or a rework of the original art? > > I would assume that a key feature of the character (like Vlad's moustache) would be something the author would say "Hey you should probably add that" or does the author not see the print till later and doesn't have a chance to ask for things like that? > > Do these transactions (for lack of a better word) go on between the author and artist or the artist and publishing company where the publishing company can say yes or no to a particular cover art work? > > Thanks! > Katie > > Somebody has to tell the author something about what he's going to draw. What does the publisher say, "it's about a guy"? Or does somebody actually read the book first? From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:35:54 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:35:54 -0700 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <43EA4EC3.9050502@brazee.net> References: <20060208195311.72880.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43EA4EC3.9050502@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602081235t27aeac7fg168c1ae33171cdd1@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > Somebody has to tell the author something about what he's going to > draw. What does the publisher say, "it's about a guy"? Or does > somebody actually read the book first? Wait--are you suggesting that if I become an artist, I might get to read /Dzur/ before August? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:35:55 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:35:55 +0100 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Jhereg Graphic Novel >Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) > > > >On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > Hmmm... Maybe we should start a fundraiser to buy up all the copies they > > have so we can burn them? > >Can I object to the latter part of the suggestion without being a >humorless scold? Yes, you can. Burning comics is just like burning books in my opinion. /Mrtn From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 8 12:43:25 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:43:25 -0800 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <43EA4EC3.9050502@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/08/06 12:04 PM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Dzur - Cover art question >Sokerchick wrote: > >>Can the author ask for a "redraw" or a rework of the original art? >> >> I would assume that a key feature of the character (like Vlad's moustache) would be something the author would say "Hey you should >probably add that" or does the author not see the print till later and doesn't have a chance to ask for things like that? >> >> Do these transactions (for lack of a better word) go on between the author and artist or the artist and publishing company where the >publishing company can say yes or no to a particular cover art work? >> > >Somebody has to tell the author something about what he's going to >draw. What does the publisher say, "it's about a guy"? Or does >somebody actually read the book first? Of course, in this case, there's already cover art out there for the other 9 books of the series (plus 3 omnibus editions), each of which has a (four-legged) jhereg on it. Perhaps they just use the previous covers as a reference? Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Feb 8 12:49:01 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:49:01 -0800 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Martin Wohlert" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/08/06 12:35 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Jhereg Graphic Novel >Burning comics is just like burning books in my opinion. Well, this depends on what books you're talking about. If I was freezing to death and needed a fire to stay alive, and had a big pile of MS-DOS 2.1 user's guides available as fuel, I wouldn't have any objections to burning them. If I wanted to burn Shakespeare because I didn't agree with some of his political views, that's something else again. For me, the Jhereg "graphic novel" falls someplace in between these extremes. However, in my original suggestion, I was not, in fact, being entirely serious. Just in case there was really any question about that. Majikjon From scs at di.org Wed Feb 8 12:51:57 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 15:51:57 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20060208205157.GA24746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 11:31:35AM -0500, Charles Sumner wrote: > FYI, for anyone who's been wanting to pick up a copy of the Jhereg graphic > novel (despite all warning about how bad it was), a limited number of > copies are on a deep discount sale this week at Mile High Comics: A friend gave me his copy free. It was worth every penny. -- "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein From pulmon at mac.com Wed Feb 8 13:32:09 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 16:32:09 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: <20060208205157.GA24746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> <20060208205157.GA24746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <723B760E-899F-4775-874A-093C3195EBAE@mac.com> On Feb 8, 2006, at 3:51 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 11:31:35AM -0500, Charles Sumner wrote: >> FYI, for anyone who's been wanting to pick up a copy of the Jhereg >> graphic >> novel (despite all warning about how bad it was), a limited number of >> copies are on a deep discount sale this week at Mile High Comics: > > A friend gave me his copy free. It was worth every penny. The book is cheap. The shipping is more than the book. I think I will give this one a pass! From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Feb 8 15:25:56 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:25:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel Message-ID: <26320533.1139441156516.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Martin Wohlert >Sent: Feb 8, 2006 3:35 PM >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Jhereg Graphic Novel > >Philip Hart wrote: >>To: dragaera at dragaera.info >>Subject: Re: Jhereg Graphic Novel >>Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:01:05 -0800 (PST) >> >> >> >>On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> > Hmmm... Maybe we should start a fundraiser to buy up all the copies they >> > have so we can burn them? >> >>Can I object to the latter part of the suggestion without being a >>humorless scold? > >Yes, you can. >Burning comics is just like burning books in my opinion. Great fun and a source of physical and emotional warmth? Kidding, kidding; sometimes I can't help myself... Jose, who thinks sponsored book burning is evil -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://www.hackwater.com From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 19:42:09 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 20:42:09 -0700 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <43EAA68F.5030708@earthlink.net> References: <20060208195311.72880.qmail@web33306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43EA4EC3.9050502@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0602081235t27aeac7fg168c1ae33171cdd1@mail.gmail.com> <43EAA68F.5030708@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602081942j3f9384car639ce2bf5adcc06e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/8/06, Maria Manemann wrote: > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > Wait--are you suggesting that if I become an artist, I might get to > > read /Dzur/ before August? > > > The Newbie is an artist. I've never tried to draw an jhereg but right > now I'll do it for just the back cover blurb of "Dzur". Heh. You know, maybe we're missing the obvious--perhaps a major plot point of Dzur is that Loiosh grows a couple of extra legs. After all, Dzur have eight legs--or maybe that's Displacer Beasts. Or else Hastur. ObSKZB: jhereg legs might taste good in finger wraps. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From sokerchick777 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 8 20:43:52 2006 From: sokerchick777 at yahoo.com (Sokerchick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 20:43:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... Message-ID: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the Taltos series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that said I was wondering if anyone had a favorite quip from any of the books. I'm in the process of re-reading Issola and came across this one... "We stood now on a small rock ledge, overlooking the Lesser Sea of Amorphia, where the greatest city of the Empire used to be until Aliera's daddy had a hissy-cow at the Emperor. I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of a hissy-cow" For some unknown reason I read that and couldn't stop laughing. Katie --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 9 02:19:15 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 05:19:15 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: <723B760E-899F-4775-874A-093C3195EBAE@mac.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> <20060208205157.GA24746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <723B760E-899F-4775-874A-093C3195EBAE@mac.com> Message-ID: <43EB1723.6050805@the-bat.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > On Feb 8, 2006, at 3:51 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 11:31:35AM -0500, Charles Sumner wrote: >>> FYI, for anyone who's been wanting to pick up a copy of the Jhereg >>> graphic >>> novel (despite all warning about how bad it was), a limited number of >>> copies are on a deep discount sale this week at Mile High Comics: >> >> A friend gave me his copy free. It was worth every penny. > The book is cheap. The shipping is more than the book. I think I will > give this one a pass! I glanced at the site out of morbid interest. It looked to me like they offered free shipping for orders less than $6 or more than $10. From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 9 02:25:10 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 05:25:10 -0500 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EB1886.9020304@the-bat.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Of course, in this case, there's already cover art out there for the other > 9 books of the series (plus 3 omnibus editions), each of which has a > (four-legged) jhereg on it. Perhaps they just use the previous covers as a > reference? > > Majikjon On the other hand, in this case, there's already _text_ out there for the other 9 books of the series. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Feb 9 05:43:57 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 05:43:57 -0800 Subject: Dzur - Cover art question In-Reply-To: <43EB1886.9020304@the-bat.net> References: <43EB1886.9020304@the-bat.net> Message-ID: <43EB471D.9020209@comcast.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Of course, in this case, there's already cover art out there for the >> other 9 books of the series (plus 3 omnibus editions), each of which >> has a (four-legged) jhereg on it. Perhaps they just use the previous >> covers as a reference? >> >> Majikjon > > On the other hand, in this case, there's already _text_ out there for > the other 9 books of the series. On the third hand, the text never explicitly specifies the exact number of apendages that a jhereg has. It would require either very careful reading and/or familiarity with the author and his quirks to know that all the pre-existing art is wrong. On the fourth hand... Well, I don't want to have cover art that I can believe in anyway--especially when they contradict my own mental images of the story. Better to have a plain cover with no decoration whatsoever. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 9 06:25:08 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:25:08 -0700 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel References: <26320533.1139441156516.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Marquez" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Jhereg Graphic Novel > >> > >> > Hmmm... Maybe we should start a fundraiser to buy up all the copies they > >> > have so we can burn them? > >> > >>Can I object to the latter part of the suggestion without being a > >>humorless scold? > > > >Yes, you can. > >Burning comics is just like burning books in my opinion. > > Great fun and a source of physical and emotional warmth? > > Kidding, kidding; sometimes I can't help myself... > > Jose, who thinks sponsored book burning is evil > > -- > Jose Marquez But if we used the Jhereg Graphic Novel as tinder, we might get enough flames to get rid of these Robert Jordon paperweights I have. Jeff - briefly thought of adding a fire oath here, but decided that it would be in poor taste. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 9 06:46:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 06:46:15 -0800 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/09/06 06:25 AM To cc Subject Re: Jhereg Graphic Novel >But if we used the Jhereg Graphic Novel as tinder, we might get enough >flames to get rid of these Robert Jordon paperweights I have. > >Jeff Well, those books would probably burn forever, but, aside from occasional flareups, never rise above a lukewarm temperature. >- briefly thought of adding a fire oath here, but decided that it would be >in poor taste. It's nice to know you haven't been tainted by exposure to the true source... Majikjon --Tried to get through the Wheel of Time series once, and his brain almost melted. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Thu Feb 9 06:47:12 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:47:12 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Graphic Novel In-Reply-To: <43EB1723.6050805@the-bat.net> References: <723B760E-899F-4775-874A-093C3195EBAE@mac.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20060208100617.00c0dfe0@camail.harvard.edu> <20060208205157.GA24746@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <723B760E-899F-4775-874A-093C3195EBAE@mac.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060209093405.00c0ddd0@camail.harvard.edu> >>>>FYI, for anyone who's been wanting to pick up a copy of the Jhereg graphic >>>>novel (despite all warning about how bad it was), a limited number of >>>>copies are on a deep discount sale this week at Mile High Comics: >>The book is cheap. The shipping is more than the book. I think I will >>give this one a pass! >I glanced at the site out of morbid interest. It looked to me like they >offered free shipping for orders less than $6 or more than $10. Not quite accurate... Mile High's actual shipping costs are a flat rate of $6 for orders of $10 or less, $4 for orders between $10 and $40, and free for orders of $40 and up. They're a good company and I order from them a bunch, although I usually wait until I'm ready to put together a $40 order to qualify for free shipping. Yeah, the Jhereg book becomes a bit pricey if that's all you're ordering, but I figured I'd send it to the list anyway in case anyone was looking for it. Anyone who is interested has until [next Tuesday?] to order it before the price goes back up. Charley "I think too much -- therefore I am mad!" http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Feb 9 08:29:22 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:29:22 -0800 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43df01c62d95$fbe25910$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the > Taltos series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that > said I was wondering if anyone had a favorite quip from any > of the books. > Not a quip, but I'm still quite fond of the "How many Yendi does it take to sharpen a sword?" riddle despite having first read it many, many years ago. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 9 08:37:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:37:12 -0800 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sokerchick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/08/06 08:43 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Favorite Vlad Quip... >Ok, > > So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the Taltos series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that said I was wondering if >anyone had a favorite quip from any of the books. > >I'm in the process of re-reading Issola and came across this one... > > "We stood now on a small rock ledge, overlooking the Lesser Sea of Amorphia, where the greatest city of the Empire used to be until >Aliera's daddy had a hissy-cow at the Emperor. I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of a hissy-cow" > > For some unknown reason I read that and couldn't stop laughing. Most of the best ones come from /Issola/, IMO. If I had to pick just one quip, it would probably be this brief exchange with Teldra: T: "Perhaps I should begin at the beginning." V: "Arbitrary. But still, not a bad choice." Of course, if we go beyond just one-liners, Vlad's got some pretty amusing exchanges with Loiosh, such as this one from /Dragon/: "Loiosh, I just want you to know, for the sake of my familiar having complete information, that my feet hurt." "I think you're cheating, Boss. Everyone else has to either carry on without complaint or be known as a complainer. You get to complain without anyone knowing it." "Because I had the foresight to show up with a ready-made listener to complaints." "That's a new job for me. Do I get a raise?" "Sure, Loiosh. Your salary just doubled." "Heh." Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Thu Feb 9 08:49:08 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:49:08 -0500 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c62d98$bee70d50$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Katie/Sokerchick writ: > So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the Taltos > series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that said I was > wondering if anyone had a favorite quip from any of the books. >From Yendi: "In the House Jhereg, we don't care teckla droppings about bad spots. We're just here to sell onions." It tickles me enough to read that opening monologue that Yendi is the one of my original Ace paperbacks that is falling apart. Casey From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 9 08:54:01 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:54:01 -0800 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sokerchick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/08/06 08:43 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Favorite Vlad Quip... > So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the Taltos series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that said I was wondering if >anyone had a favorite quip from any of the books. Oh yeah, one more of my absolute favorites, this one from /Orca/: (Vlad telling Kiera about his investigation into the Fyres conspiracy) "I'll just work my way through these special Guardsmen, find out who their boss is, kill him, take his position, use that to get close to the Empress, kill her, take the Orb, and rule Dragaera myself, exploiting the Empire ruthlessly in order to enrich myself and punish those who have offended me throughout my life, in preparation for conquering the East and eventually making myself ruler of the entire world." He paused from whipping the eggs, looked at me, and nodded somberly. "*Then* I'd meet some girls, I'll bet." --- I love that one. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 09:00:04 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:00:04 -0700 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602090900m1a516e84wc6da599646fbda7@mail.gmail.com> Not exactly a Vlad quip, but I still find the "true, true salad flax" quote amazing. I also find this little interchange entertaining: "All right," said Morrolan. "I think we can accept that. So, what do we do?" "Kill them," said Aliera. Morrolan rolled his eyes. "Of course we're going to kill them." ... "Plans are over-rated," I said. "Let's just start killing things. If there's nothing else around, we can always kill each other." Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 09:05:57 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:05:57 -0700 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602090900m1a516e84wc6da599646fbda7@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0602090900m1a516e84wc6da599646fbda7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602090905h2256cf52x44f8b6022988638@mail.gmail.com> Oh, of course. How could I forget this one? "Oh. The Demon Goddess? I killed her, of course." Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Feb 9 09:54:28 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:54:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0602090900m1a516e84wc6da599646fbda7@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0602090900m1a516e84wc6da599646fbda7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > "All right," said Morrolan. "I think we can accept that. So, what do we do?" > "Kill them," said Aliera. > Morrolan rolled his eyes. "Of course we're going to kill them." > ... > "Plans are over-rated," I said. "Let's just start killing things. If > there's nothing else around, we can always kill each other." I like those quips more than some of the others from _Issola_ cited earlier, e.g. the hissy-cow. Esp. in isolation I get a cutesy, what-the-reader-wants not what-the-reader-needs feel from them. Vlad sometimes feels too, hmm, infantilized? in _I_. From feetalsjeez at yahoo.com Thu Feb 9 10:25:49 2006 From: feetalsjeez at yahoo.com (Tim Owen) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:25:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060209182549.93856.qmail@web52913.mail.yahoo.com> Sokerchick wrote: Ok, So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the Taltos series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that said I was wondering if anyone had a favorite quip from any of the books. I'm in the process of re-reading Issola and came across this one... "We stood now on a small rock ledge, overlooking the Lesser Sea of Amorphia, where the greatest city of the Empire used to be until Aliera's daddy had a hissy-cow at the Emperor. I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of a hissy-cow" For some unknown reason I read that and couldn't stop laughing. Katie --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. I'll have to agree, Issola's got some beauties. I'm kind of partial to: "If all you've got's a stick, everything looks like a kneecap." Tim --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 9 11:38:00 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:38:00 -0700 Subject: Dzur Cover References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Edwards" To: Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 7:17 AM Subject: Dzur Cover > Look what's on Amazon now. > > http://tinyurl.com/7nabk > > "In which Vlad Taltos confronts the Left Hand of the Jhereg. . . and discovers that the game has more players than he thought" Hmm, I guess we will find out how accurate that fortune teller was. . . . Jeff - often wonders how the hell Sethra keeps up to speed with everything that she does From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 9 11:15:02 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:15:02 -0500 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:29:22 PST." <43df01c62d95$fbe25910$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <200602091915.k19JF33w019974@vice-grips.mit.edu> One of my favorite exchanges is from the first time Vlad and Sethra meet. It goes something like this: V: I'm trying to think of a polite way to say 'Drop Dead'. S: Don't bother; I died before the Interregnum. Will you take the job? > > > > > So I must say that one of the best parts of reading the > > Taltos series is the dry humor and amazing wit. With that > > said I was wondering if anyone had a favorite quip from any > > of the books. > > > > Not a quip, but I'm still quite fond of the "How many Yendi does it take to > sharpen a sword?" riddle despite having first read it many, many years ago. > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 9 11:57:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:57:04 -0800 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff G." Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 02/09/06 11:38 AM To cc Subject Re: Dzur Cover (possible minor spoiler) >"In which Vlad Taltos confronts the Left Hand of the Jhereg. . . and >discovers that the game has more players than he thought" > >Hmm, I guess we will find out how accurate that fortune teller was. . . . Possibly. Ever since /Athyra/ (where we first learn Vlad's left hand is mutilated), I've suspected the "Your left hand will try to kill you" thing might be more literally true than he realizes. >- often wonders how the hell Sethra keeps up to speed with everything that >she does Tukko takes care of that? Or maybe she has other persons working for her that we just haven't seen yet? Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 9 12:09:42 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:09:42 -0500 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:57:04 PST." Message-ID: <200602092009.k19K9hA5020448@vice-grips.mit.edu> > >- often wonders how the hell Sethra keeps up to speed with everything > that > >she does > > Tukko takes care of that? Or maybe she has other persons working for her > that we just haven't seen yet? > Do undead need to sleep? From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 11:08:45 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:08:45 -0700 Subject: Favorite Vlad Quip... In-Reply-To: References: <20060209044352.866.qmail@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0602090900m1a516e84wc6da599646fbda7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0602091108h26947aabxd3f5f28cfc4b0058@mail.gmail.com> On 2/9/06, Philip Hart wrote: > I like those quips more than some of the others from _Issola_ > cited earlier, e.g. the hissy-cow. Esp. in isolation I get a cutesy, > what-the-reader-wants not what-the-reader-needs feel from them. > Vlad sometimes feels too, hmm, infantilized? in _I_. Maybe, in his own crabby way, he's just enjoying seeing his old friends again? Issola is by far my favorite /Vlad/ book, perhaps because of all the dialogue. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Feb 9 12:12:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:12:57 -0800 Subject: Dzur Cover In-Reply-To: <200602092009.k19K9hA5020448@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: Joy Jennifer Nicholson 02/09/06 12:09 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc "Jeff G." , Subject Re: Dzur Cover >> >- often wonders how the hell Sethra keeps up to speed with everything >> that >> >she does >> >> Tukko takes care of that? Or maybe she has other persons working for her >> that we just haven't seen yet? >> > > >Do undead need to sleep? I don't know if this counts, but Jack Agyar did. Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 9 12:15:34 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:15:34 -0500 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Feb 2006 00:05:55 PST." Message-ID: <200602092015.k19KFaBx020595@vice-grips.mit.edu> > On 2/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > Someone remind me if we know how long it has been since Savn went out to > > the forest with a bucket? > > According to Amazon search inside, he filled the bucket when he was > twenty (which strikes me as being incredibly young for a Dragaeran).=20 > His apprenticeship has therefore lasted about 60 - 80 years. It would have to be young enough that he doesn't already know how the test works. Otherwise, the kids would try to fix the results. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 9 12:16:06 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff G.) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:16:06 -0700 Subject: Dzur Cover References: <200602092009.k19K9hA5020448@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > > > >- often wonders how the hell Sethra keeps up to speed with everything > > that > > >she does > > > > Tukko takes care of that? Or maybe she has other persons working for her > > that we just haven't seen yet? > > Have we ever seen Tukko outside of Dzur Mt? > > Do undead need to sleep? > I think sleep is more for the mind than the body. Jeff - regardless of what part of the body sleep benefits, could use about 8 hour of it. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 9 12:20:35 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:20:35 -0500 Subject: Dragaerans and learning (was re: the honing of Vlad) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:12:38 PST."