From johne.cook at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 07:11:44 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 09:11:44 -0600 Subject: Shameless plug: "Ray Gun Revival - call for submissions' Message-ID: The modern world has lost its sense of adventure, but not its capacity for adventure, nor its need for it. In a world of bleak headlines and jaded heroes, we need a break. We need some good, old-fashioned escapism, stories that take us away for a little while and maybe remind us that a little bravado and pluck can change your life. Enter an e-zine devoted to space opera and golden-age sci-fi in all its pulpy goodness. Here is a new publication with a throwback sensibility and online production quality. Welcome to Ray Gun Revival. Ray Gun Revival is all about dusting off the pulp adventure stories of old and giving them a fresh spin. We are bringing out the deepest elements of what has traditionally been rather superficial fiction and updating them for a new generation of fiction enthusiasts. Our stories focus more on character development than hard science, and sail all the wide-open waters between fantasy and harder sci-fi. Think of the original Star Wars stories, Doc Smith's Lensman series, the Warlord of Mars tales from Edgar Rice Burroughs. Think of everything from John Carter and Gully Foyle to Kimball Kinnison and Han Solo. Ray Gun Revival is helmed by three co-conspirators, Loriendil (author Lee. S. King), fireflyfellow (screenwriter, director, and film critic Paul Christian Glenn), and Phy (general-purpose wordsmith Johne Cook). This group of Editors is known as the Overlords because it pleases us, and uses a Round Table approach to create the e-zine, which will be sport a format that is fast, fun, and full of adventure. At present, we're looking at weekly releases featuring the best space opera / golden age sci-fi tales we can find, along with a special treat, recurring episodic serial stories by each of the Overlords, as well as an original space opera serial by critically-acclaimed up-and-coming author Sean T. M. Stiennon (aka Suuran Songforge)! While development continues at warp speed (or as fast as our mercurial equipment permits, having taken a clue from the Millennium Falcon), we are pleased to announce that the Submissions Guidelines are up and we are accepting initial submissions for publication. If you've got a story that you've been kicking around looking for a home along these lines, check us out: http://raygunrevival.com/guidelines.php Ray Gun Revival is mostly about the simple things; well-crafted stories, great characterization, ideas that will carry us away and refresh our reality-wearied minds, a sense of adventure that will take us to another place for a little while. Come get lost in adventure for a little while with Ray Gun Revival. Feel free to pop over to the Ray Gun Revival forums and put in a vote for great throwback fiction: http://raygunrevival.com/Forum/index.php Ray Gun Revival is currently in production with a proposed release day of July 1st (or whenever we can corral all the space monkeys long enough to get something done, whichever comes first). Ray Gun Revival--coming soon to a URL near you! -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://raygunrevival.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com p.s. - I wrote a rough draft of a Fireflyesque novel called "The Sky Pirate" for the NaNoWriMo contest in 2004, and a number of you on this list were kind enough to read that manuscript. I'm serializing that universe for RGR and have 36 monthly episodes mapped out. The first is called "The Assassin of Patience Bay" and features a 15 year old Cooper Flynn as he is introduced as an orphan on a remote island and meets a shadowy stranger who plunges Flynn into a lifetime of danger and adventure. As of this writing, I've written the "pilot", have finished the second episode, and am well into the third. I hope you'll enjoy this effort to revisit a classic genre. From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Apr 1 20:43:14 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 20:43:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: A new entry for the Jokes and Allusions page In-Reply-To: <225001c63bc1$f1cd2c40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060402044314.77999.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Scott Schultz wrote: > My sleep schedule has been knocked all askew thanks to my wife's recent > surgery. I hope she is recovering well. [....] Ah hah! I didn't get it either until you posted the link. Looks good. I'll add it when I can. Many thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat Apr 1 20:55:36 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 20:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: The use of italics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060402045536.74365.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > Rilke's poetry has a fair amount (i.e., > 0) of added emphasis - when > he wants to lean on a word he writes it t h u s l y. No doubt this > is a question of the prevailing stylistic standards as well as one of > skill. Spaced-out type is a traditional way of emphasizing words in German text. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Apr 1 21:16:03 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 21:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: The use of italics In-Reply-To: <20060402045536.74365.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060402045536.74365.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Apr 2006, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > --- Philip Hart wrote: > > > Rilke's poetry has a fair amount (i.e., > 0) of added emphasis - when > > he wants to lean on a word he writes it t h u s l y. No doubt this > > is a question of the prevailing stylistic standards as well as one of > > skill. > > Spaced-out type [...] W o a h , l o o k a t a l l t h e w e i r d f o n t s w e ' r e i n , d u d e . From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Apr 3 07:46:45 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:46:45 -0700 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1d1501c6572d$74ff6fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> I stopped into a local B. Dalton (apparently they're really Barnes and Noble behind the scenes these days) while my daughter was shopping yesterday. They had a selection of around ten "store employees' picks" up on the wall behind the cash register. I was surprised and pleased to see that _The Phoenix Guards_ was prominently displayed up there with the non-fantasy and non-fiction picks. It made me wonder, because I've never really understood how the whole publishing thing works - how do sales of books translate into royalties for authors? When a book goes into multiple printings, is the author still paid an advance for each printing or is it somehow computed based on actual sales? From howard at brazee.net Mon Apr 3 08:00:17 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 09:00:17 -0600 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton In-Reply-To: <1d1501c6572d$74ff6fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1d1501c6572d$74ff6fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <44313881.50909@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >I stopped into a local B. Dalton (apparently they're really Barnes and Noble >behind the scenes these days) while my daughter was shopping yesterday. They >had a selection of around ten "store employees' picks" up on the wall behind >the cash register. I was surprised and pleased to see that _The Phoenix >Guards_ was prominently displayed up there with the non-fantasy and >non-fiction picks. > >It made me wonder, because I've never really understood how the whole >publishing thing works - how do sales of books translate into royalties for >authors? When a book goes into multiple printings, is the author still paid >an advance for each printing or is it somehow computed based on actual >sales? > > Stephen King asks for $1 advances. He can do this because he knows that the publishers won't take his advance into account when they budget how much money they will spend promoting his book. And he doesn't need the money up front. From johne.cook at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 08:26:06 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:26:06 -0500 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton In-Reply-To: <44313881.50909@brazee.net> References: <1d1501c6572d$74ff6fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44313881.50909@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 4/3/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > Stephen King asks for $1 advances. He can do this because he knows > that the publishers won't take his advance into account when they budget > how much money they will spend promoting his book. And he doesn't need > the money up front. Sounds like good work if you can get it. : ) -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://raygunrevival.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From casey at the-bat.net Mon Apr 3 09:14:35 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:14:35 -0400 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton In-Reply-To: <44313881.50909@brazee.net> Message-ID: <000401c65739$b3469ea0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Howard writ: > Stephen King asks for $1 advances. He can do this because ... [snip] ...his books would be snapped up by the booksellers without the publisher spending a dime on publicity. From howard at brazee.net Mon Apr 3 09:30:11 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:30:11 -0600 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton In-Reply-To: <000401c65739$b3469ea0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <000401c65739$b3469ea0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <44314D93.2060709@brazee.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: > >Howard writ: >> Stephen King asks for $1 advances. He can do this because ... >[snip] > >...his books would be snapped up by the booksellers without the >publisher spending a dime on publicity. > > > As I said though - his advance has nothing to do with it. Whereas most authors find great advantage to having a publisher that is willing to spend money on the best cover, to have a very large print run, and to convince booksellers to predominately display the book. Not to mention getting it on Oprah. The publishers are much more likely to do this when they have already spent money on a large advance. They've already committed to the book. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Apr 4 14:26:49 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:26:49 -0400 Subject: Update on Dzur ebook Message-ID: <2CEA1700.0193A821.00048EA6@aol.com> >From Arnold Bailey at Baen: "Sorry. It's official that Tor's corporate parent pulled the plug on the project for the foreseeable future. Don't blame Tor or Tom. Strictly uber-corporate bone headedness." news://news.sector14.net/805752.80142%40bar.baen.com -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Apr 5 13:59:41 2006 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:59:41 -0400 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton In-Reply-To: <1d1501c6572d$74ff6fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: Message-ID: <4433F77D.18673.186234E@localhost> On 3 Apr 2006 at 7:46, Scott Schultz wrote From: "Scott Schultz" To: "'Dragaera list'" Date sent: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 07:46:45 -0700 Subject: TPG spotighted at local B. Dalton > It made me wonder, because I've never really understood how the whole > publishing thing works - how do sales of books translate into > royalties for authors? When a book goes into multiple printings, is > the author still paid an advance for each printing or is it somehow > computed based on actual sales? > I have a friend who works in the Royalty dept of a publisher.From what I've gleaned from her the advance/royalty systems works as such (simplified version). An author is given an advance of X dollars before the book is published. After the book is published the author earns a certain percent of each sale but doesn't actually see this money, because he/she has essentially been pe-paid via the advance. Once the advance is "earned out" then the author starts getting royalty checks. Things can get really complicated if there are several authors with differing royalty rates, or the author dies and the heirs squabble over the money, or there are media tie-ins - foreign rights - lawsuits against the author... M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Apr 6 12:26:20 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:26:20 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4433F77D.18673.186234E@localhost> Message-ID: Inspired by the "Small Invisible Lights" website going away, I've been working on porting some of the Dragaera information this site used to provide into the wikicity. Having some free time, I've been trying to figure out some of the planetary stats for Dragaera. (SiL used to have a page about the Dragaeran planet and star, such as its orbital tilt, etc.) This led me to want to create at least speculative values for some of the other planetary characteristics of Dragaera. The result is a (admittedly preliminary and somewhat dubious) speculation page about Dragaeran planetary stats on the wikicity: http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Speculation:Dragaera What I'm really looking for at this point, is either someone to check my math (haven't done any real math work since college, lo these many years ago, and it isn't a major area of study for a Music Major like myself, anyway) as well as maybe provide some clues about how to calculate the orbital velocity of a planet when you "know" the mass of the star, the planet, and the duration of the oribtal period. Any help or advice is appreciated. Thanks! Majikjon From stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net Thu Apr 6 13:24:03 2006 From: stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net (Rebecca Harbison) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:24:03 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001A8C85-70F9-456F-B563-40875B1A7C9A@whimsical-dragon.net> All the math checks out. One thing I noticed is that the axial tilt is rather higher than Earth's -- and I don't recall seasons on Dragaera seeming any more severe than those on Earth (hard to compare, though). I think the spectral type of Dragaera's sun would be a bit later, maybe a G5 or so. You can find the orbital distance by using Kepler's Third Law: a^3 = M*P^2/Msun, with a being the average distance from planet to star in astronomical units (the Earth-Sun distance being one AU), P being the period in years, M being the star's mass, and Msun being the Sun's mass. The planet's mass actually doesn't matter, since it's so small compared to the star's. You can get an average velocity by just taking the orbit's circumference, and divide by the period. For a more exact calculation, you can use the vis viva equation: v = (G * M * (2/r - 1/a)) ^ 0.5, G being Newton's Gravitational constant, and r being the planet's current distance from its star. Most useful are the maximum velocity vmax = (G * M /(a(1-e)) ^ 0.5 and minimum velocity vmin = (G * M /(a(1+e)) ^ 0.5, with e being the eccentricity. Any other useful equations you need? -- Rebecca Harbison On Apr 6, 2006, at 3:26 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Inspired by the "Small Invisible Lights" website going away, I've been > working on porting some of the Dragaera information this site used to > provide into the wikicity. > > Having some free time, I've been trying to figure out some of the > planetary stats for Dragaera. (SiL used to have a page about the > Dragaeran > planet and star, such as its orbital tilt, etc.) > > This led me to want to create at least speculative values for some > of the > other planetary characteristics of Dragaera. > > The result is a (admittedly preliminary and somewhat dubious) > speculation > page about Dragaeran planetary stats on the wikicity: > > http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Speculation:Dragaera > > What I'm really looking for at this point, is either someone to > check my > math (haven't done any real math work since college, lo these many > years > ago, and it isn't a major area of study for a Music Major like myself, > anyway) as well as maybe provide some clues about how to calculate the > orbital velocity of a planet when you "know" the mass of the star, the > planet, and the duration of the oribtal period. > > Any help or advice is appreciated. Thanks! > > Majikjon > listinfo/dragaera > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Apr 6 13:59:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:59:07 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <001A8C85-70F9-456F-B563-40875B1A7C9A@whimsical-dragon.net> Message-ID: Rebecca Harbison Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/06/06 01:24 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >All the math checks out. One thing I noticed is that the axial tilt >is rather higher than Earth's -- and I don't recall seasons on >Dragaera seeming any more severe than those on Earth (hard to >compare, though). I think the spectral type of Dragaera's sun would >be a bit later, maybe a G5 or so. I wonder if the lack of seasonal extremes could be accounted for by an extreme orbital eccentricity that brings the planet much closer to the sun during the winter period of the northern hemisphere? This would moderate the effect of the axial tilt, at least in the north. The southern hemisphere would then receive exceptionally hot summers, and brutally cold winters--but since we don't know what is going on in the southern hemisphere of Dragaera, it's possible this region isn't even inhabited, so that it isn't a problem for anyone. I suppose the other explanation is that warm and cold water currents simply moderate the effects of the seasons on Dragaera to a greater degree than they do on Earth. >You can find the orbital distance by using Kepler's Third Law: a^3 = >M*P^2/Msun, with a being the average distance from planet to star in >astronomical units (the Earth-Sun distance being one AU), P being the >period in years, M being the star's mass, and Msun being the Sun's >mass. The planet's mass actually doesn't matter, since it's so small >compared to the star's. > > You can get an average velocity by just taking the orbit's >circumference, and divide by the period. For a more exact >calculation, you can use the vis viva equation: > >v = (G * M * (2/r - 1/a)) ^ 0.5, G being Newton's Gravitational >constant, and r being the planet's current distance from its star. > >Most useful are the maximum velocity vmax = (G * M /(a(1-e)) ^ 0.5 >and minimum velocity vmin = (G * M /(a(1+e)) ^ 0.5, with e being the >eccentricity. > >Any other useful equations you need? Those are precisely what I needed, thanks! Majikjon From bryann at bryann.net Thu Apr 6 16:10:42 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:10:42 -0500 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004301c659cf$544813f0$6501a8c0@dell> I asked Steve how big the planet was (for the mapping project) and he said, "I use 'roughly Earth' for convenience." >From Dzur Mountain (which is about as far north as any jungle or other tropical condition is attributed) to the North Sea north of Fenario (Brokedown Palace describes the bitter cold of the north sea) appears to be about 2,800 miles, and if the planet is the same size as the Earth, that works out to be about 41 degrees of latitude between the tropics and the arctic. That puts Dzur Mountain at approximately 45-(41/2)= 24.5 degrees latitude, which is very close to the Earth's tropical extent of 23.5 degrees, which, at least on the Earth, is due to the tilt (that is, the Earth is tilted at 23.5 degrees, which marks the northernmost/southernmost latitude which ever bears the full brunt of the sun). Of course, the two big problems with the above are, 1. It's based on my work on release 2 of the map of Dragaera, which is not yet published. 2. I am nearly convinced that the Enclouding moderates (or at least affects) the weather within the Empire. Bryan > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:26 PM > To: 'Dragaera list' > Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) > > Inspired by the "Small Invisible Lights" website going away, > I've been working on porting some of the Dragaera information > this site used to provide into the wikicity. > > Having some free time, I've been trying to figure out some of > the planetary stats for Dragaera. (SiL used to have a page > about the Dragaeran planet and star, such as its orbital tilt, etc.) > > This led me to want to create at least speculative values for > some of the other planetary characteristics of Dragaera. > > The result is a (admittedly preliminary and somewhat dubious) > speculation page about Dragaeran planetary stats on the wikicity: > > http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Speculation:Dragaera > > What I'm really looking for at this point, is either someone > to check my math (haven't done any real math work since > college, lo these many years ago, and it isn't a major area > of study for a Music Major like myself, > anyway) as well as maybe provide some clues about how to > calculate the orbital velocity of a planet when you "know" > the mass of the star, the planet, and the duration of the > oribtal period. > > Any help or advice is appreciated. Thanks! > > Majikjon > From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Apr 6 19:58:33 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 22:58:33 EDT Subject: Steven Brust's story "The Man from Shemhaza" out in paperback Thieves World Message-ID: <300.289b981.31672f59@aol.com> Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune is out in paperback. Edited by Lynn Abbey. Cover blurb says: "Includes YEAR'S BEST FANTASY story "The Man from Shemhaza" by Steven Brust. I had to turn the book on the shelf in the store so that people could see the cover. There were not enough copies on the shelf... so I was not able to sneak a book over to the new book sections. It is a great story! The rest of the book is good too, but then I have been reading the series already and the prior series too. From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Thu Apr 6 20:12:43 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:12:43 EDT Subject: Whoo-hoo! Brokedown Palace news!!! Reprint will be available Sept. 2006 Message-ID: <222.aa5f66e.316732ab@aol.com> http://skzbrust.livejournal.com Tuesday, April 4th, 2006 2:44 pm Doings at the Dream Cafe "Right now I'm just finishing up page proofs of Dzur, then I dive right into page proofs of the reprint of Brokedown Palace." Shiny! http://www.tor.com/schedule.html Look whose updated their schedule. SEPTEMBER 2006 Orb trade paperback Steve Brust, BROKEDOWN PALACE Odd thing is there is no mention of Dzur but there is this under AUGUST 2006 Tor mass market Steven Brust, DRAGON Augghh! August 2006 is the release date for Dzur in Hardback. From howard at brazee.net Fri Apr 7 04:54:49 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 05:54:49 -0600 Subject: Steven Brust's story "The Man from Shemhaza" out in paperback Thieves World In-Reply-To: <300.289b981.31672f59@aol.com> References: <300.289b981.31672f59@aol.com> Message-ID: <44365309.3020601@brazee.net> FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote: >Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune is out in paperback. Edited by Lynn Abbey. > >Cover blurb says: "Includes YEAR'S BEST FANTASY story >"The Man from Shemhaza" by Steven Brust. > > I never know where to find these books in the book store. I'll look for this though. From alexx at panix.com Fri Apr 7 09:55:57 2006 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Steven Brust's story "The Man from Shemhaza" out in paperback Thieves World In-Reply-To: <300.289b981.31672f59@aol.com> Message-ID: <200604071655.k37Gtvo15099@panix2.panix.com> > > Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune is out in paperback. Edited by Lynn Abbey. > > Cover blurb says: "Includes YEAR'S BEST FANTASY story > "The Man from Shemhaza" by Steven Brust. > > I had to turn the book on the shelf in the store so that > people could see the cover. There were not enough copies on the shelf... > so I was not able to sneak a book over to the new book sections. > > It is a great story! Well, it might be a great *Thieve's World* story, but if you don't like that sort of thing (which I don't)... I read the first few TW books many many years ago, but eventually stopped. Reading SKZB's story reminded me of why I stopped. Mild spoiler follows: As near as I can tell, in all TW stories, any sympathetic character must eventually either be betrayed to an ugly fate, or turn out to not actually be sympathetic at all once their secrets are revealed. Steve's story did not upset this precedent. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at panixSPAMBL@CK.com http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Let's not mix sex and superheroes. All we'll end up with is a lot of frustration and devastated hotels." -- Shelley Louie From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 7 10:43:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:43:08 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <004301c659cf$544813f0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: >I asked Steve how big the planet was (for the mapping project) and he said, >"I use 'roughly Earth' for convenience." "Roughly Earth". Well, I guess this depends on how rough you're talking about. Many (including me) would call Venus "Roughly Earth-Sized". The figures I'm speculating on are midway between Venus and Earth (a bit closer to Venus-sized, and denser). I don't know how well my figures jive with yours in terms of distance (Have you been able to make a good guess about the distance from the pole to the equator, for example? Or have you just been using Earth as a template for the maps' distances?) I'm speculating that gravity on Dragaera lighter than Earth, based on the following: 1. There are a number of fairly large flying creatures (Jhereg, Dragons, Tiassa, etc) that would have an easier time of it with a lighter gravity to overcome. 2. At the same time, lighter gravity means that the atmosphere is likely to be thicker than ours (so that the air-pressure is able to sustain life), which would also help the flying critters (a thicker atmosphere makes it easier to generate lift) and would also help to moderate the seasonal variations due to the increased atmospheric mass aiding the convection currents that even out the surface temperatures. 3. In /Issola/ Our heroes go to another world which is noticeably heavier, yet has a (somewhat) breathable atmosphere. If this world is, say at the 1.2g level, it'd be a very noticeable difference to a Dragaeran, without being so far from Earth-normal to make a breathable atmosphere unlikely. Of course, since the Density of Dragaera may be remarkably different than it is for Earth, mass calculations and surface area calculations don't really have to correspond to each other there the same as they do here. >From Dzur Mountain (which is about as far north as any jungle or other >tropical condition is attributed) to the North Sea north of Fenario >(Brokedown Palace describes the bitter cold of the north sea) appears to be >about 2,800 miles, and if the planet is the same size as the Earth, that >works out to be about 41 degrees of latitude between the tropics and the >arctic. The "axial tilt" number I'm using is from the Small Invisible Lights site, which gave a formula for calculating it as Seconds in a Day/Days in a year = Axial Tilt * 10 For Earth this works out as (24*60*60)/365 = 23.67 * 10 For Dragaera is works out as (30*60*60)/289 = 37.37 * 10 I haven't been able to confirm that this formula is correct, however, and I can't quite wrap my head around why this works. It seems to me that the rotational speed of the planet may have very little to do with its orbital speed, if the planet has undergone some kind of event to dramatically affect it's rotation (such as Venus). >That puts Dzur Mountain at approximately 45-(41/2)= 24.5 degrees latitude, >which is very close to the Earth's tropical extent of 23.5 degrees, which, >at least on the Earth, is due to the tilt (that is, the Earth is tilted at >23.5 degrees, which marks the northernmost/southernmost latitude which ever >bears the full brunt of the sun). > >Of course, the two big problems with the above are, > >1. It's based on my work on release 2 of the map of Dragaera, which is not >yet published. > >2. I am nearly convinced that the Enclouding moderates (or at least affects) >the weather within the Empire. It's interesting that the enclouding doesn't seem to adversely effect the production of many crops that on Earth depend greatly on sunlight. For example, there are some excellent wine-producing regions that are apparently within the Empire (Khaavren, for example). To me, this says that either: 1. The enclouding, being magical in origin, doesn't actually block the sun's rays, it's all just an illusion. 2. The farmers on Dragaera use sorcery to make up for the lack of sunlight. (This might help explain why things were so bad during the Interregnum...) I have trouble buying this last theory, however, based on the fact that flax-farmers in /Athyra/ didn't seem to get any kind of magical assistance. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Apr 7 10:48:20 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:48:20 -0600 Subject: Wisconsin Message-ID: <4436A5E4.9090408@brazee.net> The ending of _Freedom and Necessity_ has some people going to Wisconsin. Does anybody know what the authors' plans were for them and their descendants? From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 10:51:31 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:51:31 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <004301c659cf$544813f0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604071051r12179d46j53faf25fa24078aa@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > 3. In /Issola/ Our heroes go to another world which is noticeably heavier, > yet has a (somewhat) breathable atmosphere. If this world is, say at the > 1.2g level, it'd be a very noticeable difference to a Dragaeran, without > being so far from Earth-normal to make a breathable atmosphere unlikely. A point. 1.2 is a bit heavy, though. That would add 40 pounds to my frame, which is noticeable even to an Earthling. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 7 11:09:20 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:09:20 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604071051r12179d46j53faf25fa24078aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/07/06 10:51 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >On 4/7/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> 3. In /Issola/ Our heroes go to another world which is noticeably heavier, >> yet has a (somewhat) breathable atmosphere. If this world is, say at the >> 1.2g level, it'd be a very noticeable difference to a Dragaeran, without >> being so far from Earth-normal to make a breathable atmosphere unlikely. > >A point. 1.2 is a bit heavy, though. That would add 40 pounds to my frame, >which is noticeable even to an Earthling. Well, this was the weakest of my three arguments, granted. In any case, whether a planet has a breathable atmosphere depends greatly on the presence of a strong magnetic field (to prevent solar wind from blowing it away). Still, the weight difference Vlad describes in /Issola/ seems to be immediately noticable and distressing. A .3g difference seems about right to me. (Which is, of course, no guarantee that the Jenoine planet isn't at 1.3g...) Majikjon From stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net Fri Apr 7 11:12:20 2006 From: stareyes at whimsical-dragon.net (Rebecca Harbison) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:12:20 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499220A1-4F2D-4BA3-AE62-3DF670799495@whimsical-dragon.net> I've... never heard that before. Moreover, it doesn't work on Venus or Mars -- Mars has a year that's twice as long as ours, but it's axial tilt and day length are nearly identical to Earth's. Venus's day is longer than its year and the number given is not only wrong, but unphysical (greater than 180?). As far as I know, it's arbitrary -- with a bias towards things mostly spinning close to straight up, and not so much down or sideways. -- Rebecca Harbison >> From Dzur Mountain (which is about as far north as any jungle or >> other >> tropical condition is attributed) to the North Sea north of Fenario >> (Brokedown Palace describes the bitter cold of the north sea) >> appears to > be >> about 2,800 miles, and if the planet is the same size as the >> Earth, that >> works out to be about 41 degrees of latitude between the tropics >> and the >> arctic. > > The "axial tilt" number I'm using is from the Small Invisible > Lights site, > which gave a formula for calculating it as > > Seconds in a Day/Days in a year = Axial Tilt * 10 > > For Earth this works out as (24*60*60)/365 = 23.67 * 10 > For Dragaera is works out as (30*60*60)/289 = 37.37 * 10 > > I haven't been able to confirm that this formula is correct, > however, and > I can't quite wrap my head around why this works. It seems to me > that the > rotational speed of the planet may have very little to do with its > orbital > speed, if the planet has undergone some kind of event to dramatically > affect it's rotation (such as Venus). From johne.cook at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 11:32:45 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:32:45 -0500 Subject: Wisconsin In-Reply-To: <4436A5E4.9090408@brazee.net> References: <4436A5E4.9090408@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > The ending of _Freedom and Necessity_ has some people going to > Wisconsin. Does anybody know what the authors' plans were for them and > their descendants? They became cheese makers, enjoy cold beer, and are Packers fans. Duh. ; ) -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://raygunrevival.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Apr 7 12:02:41 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:02:41 -0500 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <004301c659cf$544813f0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20060407190240.GC6956@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 10:43:08AM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > I'm speculating that gravity on Dragaera lighter than Earth, based on the > following: > > 2. At the same time, lighter gravity means that the atmosphere is likely > to be thicker than ours (so that the air-pressure is able to sustain > life), I didn't think that was a given - dunno why Venus has such a dense atmo, but Mars certainly doesn't. On first glance there are a variety of factors besides more gravity = more ability to retain atmo that affect density: http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/lessons/less/les3/press.html Kat From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 7 12:25:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:25:13 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <20060407190240.GC6956@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> Message-ID: Tsarren Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/07/06 12:02 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 10:43:08AM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> I'm speculating that gravity on Dragaera lighter than Earth, based on the >> following: >> >> 2. At the same time, lighter gravity means that the atmosphere is likely >> to be thicker than ours (so that the air-pressure is able to sustain >> life), > >I didn't think that was a given - dunno why Venus has such a dense atmo, but >Mars certainly doesn't. On first glance there are a variety of factors >besides more gravity = more ability to retain atmo that affect density: >http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/lessons/less/les3/press.html Yes, but neither Mars nor Venus are able to sustain human life. My point here was not that the gravity had to be higher to retain the atmosphere (which has as much to do with the presence of a magnetic field to protect the atmosphere against the solar wind) than it was to say that given the same volume of air, at a reduced gravity, the air pressure will be lower. Now, the range of air pressure needed to sustain human life is fairly broad (for example, while sea-level psi on Earth is about 15 psi, astronauts can survive at an air pressure of around 6 or 7 psi, as long as the concentrations of oxygen are high enough) but the proportions of oxygen/nitrogen/CO2 on Dragaera would need to be about the same as on Earth, or we would see some dramatic differences. For example, if the oxygen level was 40% on Dragaera, rather than the 21% we have on Earth, then everything would be much more flammable. Forest fires would rage out of control with the slightest encouragement. At the same time, a substantially higher partial pressure of CO2 would be toxic to humans, and cause health and breathing problems. As the page you referenced says: "The more the mass of the planet, the more gravitational pull it exerts on molecules of gas. This pull makes the larger atoms, such as nitrogen and oxygen, heavier than the tiny hydrogen atoms, and keeps most of them near the planet's surface." If we postulate a lower gravity on Dragaera, we can therefore see that the overall volume of the atmosphere will have to be larger in order to provide the same propotions of gasses at the planet's surface. This likely would mean that the planet would have a stronger magnetic field than we do on Earth (in order to retain the greater volume of air). This is likely to mean the concentrations of liquid iorn in the planet's mantle and core is more substantial than it is on Earth, and that therefore the planet's density will likely be higher then ours. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Apr 7 12:39:37 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:39:37 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4436BFF9.7030701@brazee.net> The first issue we have here is that Dragaera is probably not natural - and possibly the whole planet was Terra-formed. Many technological solutions can be imagined for some of the problems that prevent Venus and Mars from being suitable. For some reason, I picture Dragaera as being pretty polar. It does have day and night, but diffused. That diffusion may have been part of the plan - especially if someone intended to duplicate Faerie. Or it could be coincidental. Or our Faerie might be based upon Dragaera. And we don't know anything about its sun. We don't know how much magnetic protection is needed - whether it has lots of solar wind - or much of anything about it. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 7 13:04:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:04:43 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4436BFF9.7030701@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/07/06 12:39 PM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >The first issue we have here is that Dragaera is probably not natural - >and possibly the whole planet was Terra-formed. Many technological >solutions can be imagined for some of the problems that prevent Venus >and Mars from being suitable. While I'll agree that it's possible that Dragaera is "not natural" or has been terraformed, I'd say we don't have enough to go on to say that it is "likely". I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for this. While we have a number of solutions we can "imagine" for terraforming worlds, they all involve tremendous expenditures of energy and/or time that are, at present, beyond our technological abilities. Some of the suggestions I've seen for Mars are quite fascinating--but even the most ambitious of these (which required attaching large rockets to push dark-colored asteroids onto the polar icecaps of Mars) would require about 1,000 years to result in anything close to a breathable atmosphere. (And with no natural magnetic field, it probably wouldn't last, anyway.) (Kim Stanley Robinson's "Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars" cycle has some interesting ideas in this area.) Venus is harder, since even building a lander that can survive on the surface for more than a few minutes is beyond our current abilities. Add to that the fact that the planet's (lack of) rotation speed would become a major problem if enough of the atmosphere was somehow removed to bring the temperatures down. >For some reason, I picture Dragaera as being pretty polar. It does >have day and night, but diffused. That diffusion may have been part >of the plan - especially if someone intended to duplicate Faerie. Or >it could be coincidental. Or our Faerie might be based upon Dragaera. We know that Dragaera has seasons. Whether these are caused by axial tilt or orbital eccentricity is not clear. Can anyone cite any textev that shows that the days are shorter on Dragaera during the winter than they are during the summer? This would nail down the fact that it has a significant axial tilt. >And we don't know anything about its sun. We don't know how much >magnetic protection is needed - whether it has lots of solar wind - or >much of anything about it. We know that it is too bright to look at with the naked eye. We know that during the day, in the east (where there is no enclouding), it is bright enough to drown out the light of the stars. It is likely to be a main sequence star, probably somewhat smaller and cooler than Earth's sun (with therefore, a longer potential lifespan, since larger stars burn hotter and faster), or else the year would be a lot longer. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Apr 7 13:20:35 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:20:35 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) Message-ID: <4436C993.6070608@brazee.net> On 2:04 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > While I'll agree that it's possible that Dragaera is "not natural" or has > been terraformed, I'd say we don't have enough to go on to say that > it is "likely". I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for this. One thing - we see beings who can in many ways be defined as creators. Another thing, some of the characteristics of the planet match closely to some of our mythos. > While we have a number of solutions we can "imagine" for terraforming > worlds, they all involve tremendous expenditures of energy and/or > time that are, at present, beyond our technological abilities. The powerful technology that we see there isn't our technology. We also see some material which may be "left-over" from the world-building process. Powerful, dangerous material that seems to have a tremendous energy content. The world as we see it and the amorphia don't seem to be things that could have co-existed for millions of years without some kind of control over things. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 7 14:06:00 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:06:00 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <499220A1-4F2D-4BA3-AE62-3DF670799495@whimsical-dragon.net> Message-ID: Rebecca Harbison Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/07/06 11:12 AM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >I've... never heard that before. Moreover, it doesn't work on Venus >or Mars -- Mars has a year that's twice as long as ours, but it's >axial tilt and day length are nearly identical to Earth's. Venus's >day is longer than its year and the number given is not only wrong, >but unphysical (greater than 180?). As far as I know, it's arbitrary >-- with a bias towards things mostly spinning close to straight up, >and not so much down or sideways. It would appear, therefore, to be a formula that just happens to be correct for Earth... But for the wrong reasons. I will have to search for some textev about the lengths and severity of the seasons on Dragaera and come up with a speculative value that fits, as 37.37 degrees does seem to be a pretty steep incline. Majikjon From factitious at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 14:16:28 2006 From: factitious at gmail.com (Ben Heaton) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:16:28 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4436C993.6070608@brazee.net> References: <4436C993.6070608@brazee.net> Message-ID: <3498b78c0604071416t53db46b6ld675e83253ca33fb@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > On 2:04 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > While I'll agree that it's possible that Dragaera is "not natural" or has > > been terraformed, I'd say we don't have enough to go on to say that > > it is "likely". I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for this. > > One thing - we see beings who can in many ways be defined as creators. Before the Jenoine got to the planet, it was already inhabited by humans and Serioli. But Sethra did imply in Issola that the Serioli were modified by the Jenoine during their experiments on the native life. That could reasonably be interpreted as part of a terraforming process, though it would be much more minor than anything on the order of making Mars a nice place to live. -Ben Heaton From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 7 14:35:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:35:04 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4436C993.6070608@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/07/06 01:20 PM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >We also see some material which may be "left-over" from the >world-building process. Powerful, dangerous material that seems to >have a tremendous energy content. The world as we see it and the >amorphia don't seem to be things that could have co-existed for millions >of years without some kind of control over things. The amorphia hasn't been there for "millions of years". It's older than the Empire, but probably not by very much. We don't have an exact timeframe for how long it was between the explosion that destroyed the Jenoine on Dragaera (creating the Greater Sea) and the creation of the Orb and the Empire, it couldn't be all that long--maybe a few thousand years--or else the Jenoine would have just come back. (It is strongly implied in /Issola/ that the Orb is the primary deterrant to their return.) Also, clearly the planet was habitable by humans (and Dragaerans, and Serioli) prior to this event, since the Jenoine were experimenting on them before the amorphia was even created. Certainly we don't know what other powerful tricks and devices the Jenoine have up their sleeves, but I consider it unlikely that they created or even significantly terraformed Dragaera itself. (Unless they "created" it millenia in advance of our arrival as a trap to lure humans in so they could experiment on them? hm. There's an interesting idea. Still, no proof either way.) Majikjon From bryann at bryann.net Fri Apr 7 16:01:10 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:01:10 -0500 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001601c65a97$29943c60$6501a8c0@dell> > I don't know how well my figures jive with yours in terms of > distance (Have you been able to make a good guess about the > distance from the pole to the equator, for example? Or have > you just been using Earth as a template for the maps' distances?) To my knowledge, there is only one reference to any point south of the Equator (Landsight), and that does not specify a distance, so no. I understand what you mean about the relative meaning of 'roughly', but that nearly seems like an absolute compared to most of the things Steve's written about Dragaera's geography... > It's interesting that the enclouding doesn't seem to > adversely effect the production of many crops that on Earth > depend greatly on sunlight. For example, there are some > excellent wine-producing regions that are apparently within > the Empire (Khaavren, for example). http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:14445:200407:cecihpcpilk hkkgihbie Bryan From howard at brazee.net Fri Apr 7 16:15:22 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:15:22 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) Message-ID: <4436F28A.6010401@brazee.net> On 3:16 PM Ben Heaton wrote: > Before the Jenoine got to the planet, it was already inhabited by > humans and Serioli. It may be a mistake to think we understand precidence with regards to the Jenoine. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Apr 7 16:22:04 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <001601c65a97$29943c60$6501a8c0@dell> References: <001601c65a97$29943c60$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Bryan Newell wrote: > > It's interesting that the enclouding doesn't seem to > > adversely effect the production of many crops that on Earth > > depend greatly on sunlight. For example, there are some > > excellent wine-producing regions that are apparently within > > the Empire (Khaavren, for example). > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:14445:200407:cecihpcpilkhkkgihbie FWIW I still don't buy that explanation - it seems entirely unlikely that the East enjoys an earthlike insolation while the Overcast filters the spectrum to orange without depressing the intensity from that frequency - and that plants would do as well in filtered light as in full-spectrum seems impossible. There had to have been a regression in productivity/acre during the development of the Overcast (presumably compensated by improvements in agriculture technique, such as the nitrogen-fixing-by-Orb I suggested back in the thread Bryan points to), in particular relative to the East. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Apr 7 17:18:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > The amorphia hasn't been there for "millions of years". It's older than > the Empire, but probably not by very much. Does "The amorphia" mean anything above, and if so do you have any shred of evidence for the assertion? Or can I start discussing the Tiffany gumball machine on top of Mount Bli'aard that's older than the Empire, but probably not by very much? From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 20:58:45 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:58:45 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604072058g3af54e5dk9f7258864436decf@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > The amorphia hasn't been there for "millions of years". It's older than > > the Empire, but probably not by very much. > > Does "The amorphia" mean anything above, and if so do you have any shred > of evidence for the assertion? Or can I start discussing the Tiffany > gumball machine on top of Mount Bli'aard that's older than the Empire, > but probably not by very much? I'm not sure what this means. It seems pretty clear from Verra and Sethra's descriptions of the event that raw amorphia is dangerous and virulent stuff, that it was only a fluke that the amorphia from the Event failed to consume the world, and that the timing of the Event coincided roughly with the ascension of the gods and the expulsion of the Jenoine. It seems not unreasonable to suppose that the Event involved the creation (or importing?) of amorphia rather than... I'm actually not quite clear on what your alternate proposition is. Pre-existing amorphia pools that somehow get out of hand? -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Apr 7 21:18:54 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604072058g3af54e5dk9f7258864436decf@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0604072058g3af54e5dk9f7258864436decf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 4/7/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > The amorphia hasn't been there for "millions of years". It's older than > > > the Empire, but probably not by very much. > > > > Does "The amorphia" mean anything above, and if so do you have any shred > > of evidence for the assertion? Or can I start discussing the Tiffany > > gumball machine on top of Mount Bli'aard that's older than the Empire, > > but probably not by very much? > > I'm not sure what this means. It seems pretty clear from Verra and > Sethra's descriptions of the event that raw amorphia is dangerous and > virulent stuff, that it was only a fluke that the amorphia from the > Event failed to consume the world, and that the timing of the Event > coincided roughly with the ascension of the gods and the expulsion of > the Jenoine. It seems not unreasonable to suppose that the Event > involved the creation (or importing?) of amorphia rather than... I'm > actually not quite clear on what your alternate proposition is. > Pre-existing amorphia pools that somehow get out of hand? First, this argument from ignorance is the kind of thing that makes people want to teach children ID, and should be avoided. Second, Jon wasn't even making an argument. Third, how the hell should I know? Fourth, I can trivially come up with a dozen reasonable scenarios which have amorphia existing in at least small quantities for as long as you like, and I'm sure SKZB can come up with more. From factitious at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 00:23:59 2006 From: factitious at gmail.com (Ben Heaton) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 03:23:59 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4436F28A.6010401@brazee.net> References: <4436F28A.6010401@brazee.net> Message-ID: <3498b78c0604080023o6ab79bdcy529dc1daae8fd1e9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/7/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > On 3:16 PM Ben Heaton wrote: > > Before the Jenoine got to the planet, it was already inhabited by > > humans and Serioli. > > It may be a mistake to think we understand precidence with regards to > the Jenoine. True, but if so, it's a mistake that has also been made by Sethra, who should know something of these matters. She told Vlad, "They came here, as your people came here, only later." If we assume there's more time weirdness going on (not too bold an assumption, given that even the gods can play around with time), it's certainly possible that the Jenoine found a planet with Serioli and Easterners on it, and then later engineered the creation of the Serioli in the first place. I'm not sure why they'd bother, though; with Dragaerans and Easterners they already had an experiment and a control group. We don't seem to have many clues as to what changes they made to the Serioli, or why. -Ben Heaton From howard at brazee.net Sat Apr 8 05:49:41 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:49:41 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) Message-ID: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> On 4/7/2006 9:58 PM Maximilian Wilson wrote: > I'm > actually not quite clear on what your alternate proposition is. > Pre-existing amorphia pools that somehow get out of hand? Not necessarily pools. If amorphia is construction material, it may have been stored away, possibly improperly disposed of, or was in a reservoir which the Jenoine expected that they could use but did not expect the mice to open up and spill all over the landscape. We don't know. But it does appear to be the stuff that dreams are made real with. From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Apr 8 06:46:45 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:46:45 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4437BEC5.7030000@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >> The amorphia hasn't been there for "millions of years". It's older than >> the Empire, but probably not by very much. >> > > Does "The amorphia" mean anything above, and if so do you have any shred > of evidence for the assertion? Or can I start discussing the Tiffany > gumball machine on top of Mount Bli'aard that's older than the Empire, > but probably not by very much? > "The amorphia" in this case is referring to ALL amorphia. Sethra lays out the basic events of the Jenoine's destruction in /Issola/, with statements that indicate that amorphia didn't exist (on Dragaera, or anywhere else) until the cataclysm that wiped out the Jenoine created the Greater Sea. My estimate of when this happened is based on the fact that the Orb is implied to be the thing that is keeping the Jenoine from coming back, and it was made about the time the Empire was founded (approx 240,000 years ago). So, if too long a time had gone by after the explosion that created the greater sea (and introduced amorphia into the universe) and the creation of the Orb, the Jenoine would have simply come back, basically unopposed, and had control of all the amorphia themselves. Also, in /Issola/, Sethra says that the Orb has been protecting the Greater Sea "all along, almost by accident". To me, this links the explosion and the Orb as being events that happened within a single Dragaeran generation. But you may have a different take on it. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 07:00:49 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 08:00:49 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> On 4/8/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > Not necessarily pools. If amorphia is construction material, it may > have been stored away, possibly improperly disposed of, or was in a > reservoir which the Jenoine expected that they could use but did not > expect the mice to open up and spill all over the landscape. I don't feel that this is consistent with the Jenoine's attempt to siphon off amorphia from the Lesser Sea in /Issola/. If (non-world-consuming) amorphia is old hat to the Jenoine, why don't they just make their own? -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 07:05:47 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 10:05:47 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I believe Sethra stated that Dragaera is the only place anywhere amorphia occurs. On 4/8/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 4/8/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > Not necessarily pools. If amorphia is construction material, it may > > have been stored away, possibly improperly disposed of, or was in a > > reservoir which the Jenoine expected that they could use but did not > > expect the mice to open up and spill all over the landscape. > > I don't feel that this is consistent with the Jenoine's attempt to > siphon off amorphia from the Lesser Sea in /Issola/. If > (non-world-consuming) amorphia is old hat to the Jenoine, why don't > they just make their own? > > -Max Wilson > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From howard at brazee.net Sat Apr 8 07:59:56 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 08:59:56 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) Message-ID: <4437CFEC.80508@brazee.net> On 1:23 AM Ben Heaton wrote: > If we assume there's more time weirdness going on (not too bold an > assumption, given that even the gods can play around with time), it's > certainly possible that the Jenoine found a planet with Serioli and > Easterners on it, and then later engineered the creation of the > Serioli in the first place. I'm not sure why they'd bother, though; > with Dragaerans and Easterners they already had an experiment and a > control group. We don't seem to have many clues as to what changes > they made to the Serioli, or why. It doesn't appear that everything the Jenoine do is without unknown consequences. From howard at brazee.net Sat Apr 8 08:02:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:02:18 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: >On 4/8/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >>Not necessarily pools. If amorphia is construction material, it may >>have been stored away, possibly improperly disposed of, or was in a >>reservoir which the Jenoine expected that they could use but did not >>expect the mice to open up and spill all over the landscape. >> >> > >I don't feel that this is consistent with the Jenoine's attempt to >siphon off amorphia from the Lesser Sea in /Issola/. If >(non-world-consuming) amorphia is old hat to the Jenoine, why don't >they just make their own? > >-Max Wilson > > Just because they know how to use a tool doesn't mean they know how to create that tool - at least not cheaply. Maybe it was left over from an earlier Brust novel and they discovered it and used it for their experiments. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Apr 8 10:00:33 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> Message-ID: Sethra, from _Issola_, pg 37 (hardcover): "[...] I cannot, in my own mind, imagine the cataclysm of the moment when [the Great Sea] came into being, that instant when for the first time the Unknowable took form." She goes on to say that the existence of the Unknowable, now knowable, meant there would eventually be a goddess of elder sorcery, and a Serioli who made Great Weapons embodying it, and a human who built the Orb. Also that the J want the power thus represented. Clearly reasonable evidence that the GS was the first amorphia, and following Alexx's placement of these events at "~300,000 BI??" would mean recent amorphia, so Jon's claim earlier is sensible, and I was overly skeptical. Note however that Sethra doesn't present any evidence that the GS was the first amorphia - all her consequences follow regardless. Maybe her point is really that stable amorphia changed things. The Serioli may have been making small evanescent amounts of contained amorphia since before the J showed up (30M BI, Alexx hazards) for all she knows. I think it's likely that the J had some sense that Dragaera was an environment that could support amorphia, as they seem to have had a lab experimenting in something that on being sabotaged made amorphia, and they may have been responsible for the amorphia-related genetics of the Kieron line. Maybe they were also making small evanescent amounts of the stuff. As a particle physicist, it seems unlikely to me that something might exist in one place only, as Sethra says - but if so, then there's the question of whether the stuff exists in the vacuum, which is full of matter-antimatter pairs of everything. And then there are the issues of the spectrum of stuff produced in the Big Bang and from Hawking radiation (if either is physical in the Dragaeran multiverse). Note that the J were able to make a river of amorphia elsewhere, to Sethra's great astonishment, so she may be overrepresenting her understanding of the issue to Vlad. And Vlad was able (I think) to produce amorphia there as well. Maybe Dragaera isn't so special in this sense. As an aside, either Sethra is lapsing into Paarfi-style with "I cannot, in my own mind, imagine", or she does imagining in others' minds. From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 12:10:44 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:10:44 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> Philip wrote: > Note that the J were able to make a river of amorphia elsewhere, to > Sethra's great astonishment, so she may be overrepresenting her > understanding of the issue to Vlad. And Vlad was able (I think) > to produce amorphia there as well. Maybe Dragaera isn't so special > in this sense. My impression is that Dragaera is special not so much for being the only place where amorphia can be *created* as for being the only place where a known, stable source exists. Remember Sethra's comments about the biggest fluke of all, that the GS (and the LS later on) failed to consume the entire world. The Jenoine didn't make their amorphia (it was siphoned off from the LS) but Vlad certainly did make some there, as you mentioned. On the other hand, since amorphia appears to convert other matter into amorphia, I've wondered why cutting the link to the LS is likely to inconvenience the Jenoine in any way except for undercutting their plans to take over the Orb. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Apr 8 12:21:45 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 12:21:45 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44380D49.3020903@comcast.net> Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On the other hand, since amorphia appears to convert other matter into > amorphia, I've wondered why cutting the link to the LS is likely to > inconvenience the Jenoine in any way except for undercutting their > plans to take over the Orb. > I have no doubt that we have not seen the last of the Jenoine. The bit of amorphia they have stolen will no doubt prove important later on. (Or maybe it won't. All depends on if it makes for a good story, I suppose.) I would hazard a guess, however, that the Jenoine will have difficulty using the amorphia they already have to make more, however. Else, why would it have been so important to Sethra (et al) in /Issola/ that they cut off the Jenoine's access to the LS as quickly as possible? To me, this says that at least TPTB (which includes Sethra, the LoJ, and the Necromancer) all think that cutting off their supply sooner will result in their having a diminished supply of the stuff. Does amorphia perhaps have a "critical mass" that is needed to reach a point where more can be generated from an existing source? Is amorphia perhaps being "enriched" by the Jenoine to make an "Amorphia Bomb"? Who can say? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Apr 8 13:24:57 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > Philip wrote: > > Note that the J were able to make a river of amorphia elsewhere, to > > Sethra's great astonishment, so she may be overrepresenting her > > understanding of the issue to Vlad. And Vlad was able (I think) > > to produce amorphia there as well. Maybe Dragaera isn't so special > > in this sense. > > My impression is that Dragaera is special not so much for being the > only place where amorphia can be *created* as for being the only place > where a known, stable source exists. Remember Sethra's comments about > the biggest fluke of all, that the GS (and the LS later on) failed to > consume the entire world. The Jenoine didn't make their amorphia (it > was siphoned off from the LS) but Vlad certainly did make some there, > as you mentioned. > > On the other hand, since amorphia appears to convert other matter into > amorphia, I've wondered why cutting the link to the LS is likely to > inconvenience the Jenoine in any way except for undercutting their > plans to take over the Orb. Yes -the J have a river of amorphia and a hunk of trellanstone - I don't see why they can't make their own orb and maintain their own sea and just ignore Dragaera (or find more trellanstone and make more orbs and seas and then blow away the Empire/gods by brute force) - esp since they have been doing something similar already. The only out I can think of at the moment is that there's something special about the human (Serioli?) phenotype/soulotype that clicks with amorphia and the J aren't willing or able to modify themselves to do the same, and too dumb or something to just kidnap some e'Kierons and breed them and use them as proxies against the gods. Dunno. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Apr 8 13:39:22 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The "what is special about this planet over all other planets" discussion of amorphia in the context of physics reminds me that the not-very-useful analogy to antimatter is relevant here. Particle physics has long produced large numbers of antimatter protons and electrons, and recently groups have produced antimatter atoms in sizable quantaties (though not in the most useful possible form). Astrophysics tells us that there is no indication of the existence of antistuff anywhere else in the universe. If there are aliens out there with post-20th-century labs, then never mind, but as far as I know there are no dense quantities of antihydrogen anywhere but here. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 14:42:45 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:42:45 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wasn't the trellanstone destroyed by Vlad in that crazy amorphia hissy cow? They did discover what was preventing them from leaving- the trellanstone- and then they were able to leave after Vlad went crazy- I always assumed it got blowed up real good, as my neighbor would say. They might have simply teleported it away, but I think they would have rather let it stay and have a chance to off Verra once and for all rather than lose some trellanstone, which, conceivably, could be obtained again. On 4/8/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > Philip wrote: > > > Note that the J were able to make a river of amorphia elsewhere, to > > > Sethra's great astonishment, so she may be overrepresenting her > > > understanding of the issue to Vlad. And Vlad was able (I think) > > > to produce amorphia there as well. Maybe Dragaera isn't so special > > > in this sense. > > > > My impression is that Dragaera is special not so much for being the > > only place where amorphia can be *created* as for being the only place > > where a known, stable source exists. Remember Sethra's comments about > > the biggest fluke of all, that the GS (and the LS later on) failed to > > consume the entire world. The Jenoine didn't make their amorphia (it > > was siphoned off from the LS) but Vlad certainly did make some there, > > as you mentioned. > > > > On the other hand, since amorphia appears to convert other matter into > > amorphia, I've wondered why cutting the link to the LS is likely to > > inconvenience the Jenoine in any way except for undercutting their > > plans to take over the Orb. > > > Yes -the J have a river of amorphia and a hunk of trellanstone - I don't > see why they can't make their own orb and maintain their own sea and just > ignore Dragaera (or find more trellanstone and make more orbs and seas > and then blow away the Empire/gods by brute force) - esp since they have > been doing something similar already. The only out I can think of at the > moment is that there's something special about the human (Serioli?) > phenotype/soulotype that clicks with amorphia and the J aren't willing or > able to modify themselves to do the same, and too dumb or something to > just kidnap some e'Kierons and breed them and use them as proxies against > the gods. > > Dunno. > From wilson.max at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 21:37:48 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 22:37:48 -0600 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> [Oops. Fwd to list] On 4/8/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > Wasn't the trellanstone destroyed by Vlad in that crazy amorphia hissy cow? My impression is, no. Verra says Vlad's hissy cow destroyed the "devices" keeping the portal closed; this could conceivably mean the trellanstone, but it was in a different place at the time. Also, it's not a plural "devices," although it could be included among that plural. I also suspect the Jenoine's ability to use sorcery at the showdown on the shores of the Lesser Sea would have suffered had their stone been destroyed. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sat Apr 8 22:21:03 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 22:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > I also suspect the Jenoine's ability to use sorcery at the showdown on > the shores of the Lesser Sea would have suffered had their stone been > destroyed. The J would presumably have lost control of their river if their trellanstone had been destroyed, leaving them with bigger problems, if any were left to have problems. One gets the feeling from pg 204 of _Issola_ that the river might serve as a power source, so it's not clear to me what the deal is with the Lesser Sea, but just add that to the list. Note that there is a well-known Serioli word for trellanstone - e.g., Verra uses the Serioli word. I wonder if that has any significance - have they had any to play with, for GWs or otherwise? From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 02:19:19 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 05:19:19 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why should we assume they only had one? On 4/9/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > > I also suspect the Jenoine's ability to use sorcery at the showdown on > > the shores of the Lesser Sea would have suffered had their stone been > > destroyed. > > The J would presumably have lost control of their river if their > trellanstone had been destroyed, leaving them with bigger problems, > if any were left to have problems. > > One gets the feeling from pg 204 of _Issola_ that the river might > serve as a power source, so it's not clear to me what the deal is > with the Lesser Sea, but just add that to the list. > > Note that there is a well-known Serioli word for trellanstone - > e.g., Verra uses the Serioli word. I wonder if that has any > significance - have they had any to play with, for GWs or > otherwise? > From tlumbis at sover.net Sun Apr 9 09:01:58 2006 From: tlumbis at sover.net (Tom Lumbis) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:01:58 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net><2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com><4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net><2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com><2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com><2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> Assume they only had one trellanstone? We should assume that because the room our heroes were held prisoners in was to the jenoine, the only room. The other stone would have been there too. > Why should we assume they only had one? From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 15:15:26 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 15:15:26 -0700 Subject: Steven Brust's story "The Man from Shemhaza" out in paperback Thieves World In-Reply-To: <200604071655.k37Gtvo15099@panix2.panix.com> References: <300.289b981.31672f59@aol.com> <200604071655.k37Gtvo15099@panix2.panix.com> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, Alexx Kay wrote: > > > > Thieves' World: Enemies of Fortune is out in paperback. Edited by Lynn Abbey. > > > > Cover blurb says: "Includes YEAR'S BEST FANTASY story > > "The Man from Shemhaza" by Steven Brust. > > > > I had to turn the book on the shelf in the store so that > > people could see the cover. There were not enough copies on the shelf... > > so I was not able to sneak a book over to the new book sections. > > > > It is a great story! > > Well, it might be a great *Thieve's World* story, but if you don't like > that sort of thing (which I don't)... > > I read the first few TW books many many years ago, but eventually stopped. > Reading SKZB's story reminded me of why I stopped. Mild spoiler follows: And there's also a somewhat more important spoiler in my reply, so be warned... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As near as I can tell, in all TW stories, any sympathetic character must > eventually either be betrayed to an ugly fate, or turn out to not actually > be sympathetic at all once their secrets are revealed. Steve's story did > not upset this precedent. > I have a feeling that the whole point of "The Man from Shemhaza" was Steve musing over how someone might be able to defeat a presumptively perfect lie-detection device, such as, say, the Orb of Dragaera. So the multiple nonsense-paradoxical-autocontradictory phrases of the song would presumably have some analog that, say, Vlad might have had running through his mind during his interrogation. And something similar perhaps was what Zerika was referring to when she strongly implied that someone skilled in the arts of Discretion would be able to lie outright while under the Orb. Not that I disagree with your assessment. From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 15:31:53 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 18:31:53 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> Message-ID: But not everything the Jenoine have was in that room, itself. Case in point; the couch two were sitting on after Aliera found them with Pathfinder, or the weapon they used on Vlad's arm- neither of those were present, yet they still exist. Vlad would have certainly made note of either of those if they had been in the same 'room'. In fact, I think Steve needs to enlighten us a bit more on what he meant by Jenoine philosophy. On 4/9/06, Tom Lumbis wrote: > > Assume they only had one trellanstone? We should assume that because the > room our heroes were held prisoners in was to the jenoine, the only room. > The other stone would have been there too. > > > Why should we assume they only had one? > > > From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 15:44:42 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 15:44:42 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> Message-ID: On 4/9/06, Tom Lumbis wrote: > > Why should we assume they only had one? > Assume they only had one trellanstone? We should assume that because the > room our heroes were held prisoners in was to the jenoine, the only room. > The other stone would have been there too. While I actually agree that any additional trellanstone would have been in the same room (for simple pragmatic reasons), I don't think we can conclude that that trellanstone was the only trellanstone that they could get their hands on, even assuming that the first one was somehow damaged, which I don't think we can assume. And I would just like to point out that that "the only room" (and the related statements about time and space) was almost certainly Teldra incorrectly inferring something about the Jenoine mind. I suspect that the Dragaeran linguistics curriculum includes a little too much linguistic determinism. No doubt there's a local equivalent of Sapir-Whorf, probably from House Athyra. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 15:55:14 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 15:55:14 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604080700n698450e2rf793a1ae085a5fde@mail.gmail.com> <4437D07A.1020303@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 4/8/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Sethra, from _Issola_, pg 37 (hardcover): > > "[...] I cannot, in my own mind, imagine the cataclysm of the moment > when [the Great Sea] came into being, that instant when for the first > time the Unknowable took form." > > > As an aside, either Sethra is lapsing into Paarfi-style with "I cannot, > in my own mind, imagine", or she does imagining in others' minds. Perhaps this is another hint at the notion of "Dzur Mountain is a supercomputer". Thus, she is implying that when her mind has interfaced with Dzur Mountain, she is capable of running simulations of far greater complexity than when she is not so connected. Or maybe not. From tlumbis at sover.net Sun Apr 9 19:31:35 2006 From: tlumbis at sover.net (Tom Lumbis) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 22:31:35 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net><2ddbda5f0604081210w1267f0f2j74274693f6866a64@mail.gmail.com><2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com><2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com><002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> Message-ID: <002201c65c46$ea693f70$f9a172d8@hal> Teldra incorrectly inferring something about the Jenoine mind? Ouch. Sure, she's only.... 'human', but... she's an Issola. Her entire race is one of reserved and graceful observers. She makes valid points about being able to infer certain things about a race by their language - I don't believe she's fallen victim to linguistic determinism when she makes carefully thoughtout and educated guesses about the Jenoine. :-D > And I would just like to point out that that "the only room" (and the > related statements about time and space) was almost certainly Teldra > incorrectly inferring something about the Jenoine mind. > > I suspect that the Dragaeran linguistics curriculum includes a little > too much linguistic determinism. No doubt there's a local equivalent > of Sapir-Whorf, probably from House Athyra. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Apr 10 06:35:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 06:35:32 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <002201c65c46$ea693f70$f9a172d8@hal> Message-ID: "Tom Lumbis" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/09/06 07:31 PM To "Davdi Silverrock" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >Teldra incorrectly inferring something about the Jenoine mind? >Ouch. Sure, she's only.... 'human', but... she's an Issola. Her entire race >is one of reserved and graceful observers. She makes valid points about >being able to infer certain things about a race by their language - I don't >believe she's fallen victim to linguistic determinism when she makes >carefully thoughtout and educated guesses about the Jenoine. :-D Hey, nobody's perfect. And, to her credit, Teldra seems to be one of the most reliable sources of information in all the Vlad novels. Maybe this is just Steve's attempt to cut into her credibility a little. After all, a character who's always right seriously affects his ability to change his maind about things later on. ;-) Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Apr 10 08:59:09 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:59:09 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Reviewing Issola in light of the current amorphia discussion, a couple of statements caught my eye that were made by Sethra in regards to reincarnation. Firstly, page 39, in reference to the Gods and their disposition of souls that arrive at The Halls of Judgement: "As they review the dead, some they have no use for... Others have skills that might someday be useful, and those are held in the Paths of the Dead against that use, or reincarnated into circumstance where their skills can develop." Secondly, page 41, in reference to Destiny and past lives: "Think back to your own past, Vlad: I know what Aliera told you about your past lives, so consider her words now... Consider those you know of who were once your family, and those who mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist for you to imagine, much less remember. Kieron... remains in the Paths of the Dead... I, who had some importance in the tribe, am here... trying to see that nothing upsets the balance. I think we were all, even then, marked out by the gods. I can't say I like it much, or that you should, but there it is." What Sethra is suggesting here is that it's not an accident that the leaders of the tribe that became House Dragon and, in Dolivar's case, spawned House Jhereg, are still around and acting as movers and shakers of present day events. Whereas Aliera views Dolivar's reincarnation as an Easterner to be sort of a case of mystical irony, Sethra's statements about the true purpose of the Paths suggests a different interpretation. If Sethra is right, that the Gods chose Kieron, Dolivar and Aliera-Who-Was as important pawns even before the formation of the Empire, then the event of Vlad's birth becomes less an accident than a matter of planning. There's no good reason why a Dragaeran soul should have reincarnated into an Eastern body. An "odd interaction of reincarnation and genetics" doesn't really explain anything; it's just a judgement of observed facts. Whether it was held in the Paths for the right time or allowed to reincarnate a few times until it was needed, the implication is that Dolivar's soul was kept and deliberately reincarnated into an Easterner when the need arose. Given the short lifespan of Easterners and the possible subsequent loss of Dolivar's soul (Eastern souls don't go to the Paths), the need must be urgent (when seen relative to the lifespan of a Dragaeran or the immortality of a God). It's no accident that Vlad is good at what he does; he's had a lifetime(s) of experience previously. It's no accident that he has the favor of Verra. He was "created" by her in a very real sense. It's no accident that Godslayer came into his possession. The Gods "bred" him because they sensed the impending emergence of Godslayer and they needed someone to wield it who would learn the neccesary skills quickly and carry it loyally. Note that I'm not suggesting that the Gods literally said "We need someone to carry Godslayer." It's clear that the Lords of Judgement don't see all ends, and Verra was rather horrified to find out that Vlad was carrying Spellbreaker around. When she DID find out, she must have realized what it meant and, perhaps, started to see why this particular servant of hers had been neccesary to create. Now that Godslayer HAS emerged in the hands of a minion who is mystically "appropriate" for its intended purpose, I'd expect events to start steamrolling toward a conclusion of some kind. Note that "steamrolling" in Dragaeran terms might be a decade or ten. It will happen "soon", though, unless Godslayer is somehow able to extend Vlad's lifespan beyond the norm for an Easterner. The important thing is that Dolivar, Aliera-Who-Was, and Sethra are all wielders of Great Weapons in the service of Verra. Kieron's Greatsword is nearly as good as a Great Weapon in the way that ancient heroic swords tend to be and there's little doubt that he could take it back if he chose. Whatever purpose the Gods marked these people for, to use Sethra's words, would appear to be coming to a head. The question now is, "Who is the target of _The Final Contract_?" Who has Vlad been "bred" to kill and will he prove capable in the end? Assuming he survives the experience, what then? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Apr 10 09:49:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:49:15 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <20060408084842.90853.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen 04/08/06 01:48 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Subject RE: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >>1. There are a number of fairly large flying creatures (Jhereg, Dragons, >>Tiassa, etc) that would have an easier time of it with a lighter gravity >>to overcome. > >Hm. Actually, I think the largest flying thing on Dragaera is ... what, the tiassa? I was under the impression, primarily from 'Brokedown Palace', that Dragaeran dragons didn't >have wings and could not fly -- that they looked somewhat like the dragons as pictured in Asia. > >I may, of course, be wrong. As I recall, the text (even in BP) is less than definitive on this point. Wasn't Kathana e'Marish'Chala's dragon painting described with wings? Also, while the cover art is far from canonical, the Dragon emblem on Morrolan's breast on the cover of LoCB does show a stylized Dragon with wings. This is no guarantee that the creatures do fly, but having wings would tend to indicate that at one time, some anscestor (likely of similar size) of theirs probably did. My feeling, based on the general mythology of Dragons, is that they probably are able to fly--but don't bother to much of the time because it is an effort for them to do so. (Especially the older, fatter ones.) Also, don't forget the Giant Jhereg near Deathgate falls, which are about the same size as Vlad (his words). This is larger than any flying reptile on Earth... (At least, since the time of the dinosaurs.) Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 09:59:19 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:59:19 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604100959j3dcee50av56024469ed8af8b2@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Scott Schultz wrote: [Food for thought acknowledged and snipped] > Sethra are all wielders of Great Weapons in the service of Verra. Kieron's > Greatsword is nearly as good as a Great Weapon in the way that ancient > heroic swords tend to be I thought it was just a sword, desired by Sethra the Younger for its propaganda value. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From steve at romlin.com Mon Apr 10 10:21:23 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:21:23 +0200 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 69 In-Reply-To: <20060410170007.1E190E94FE@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060410170007.1E190E94FE@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Scott Schultz" > To: "'Dragaera'" > Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:59:09 -0700 > Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? > Reviewing Issola in light of the current amorphia discussion, a couple of > statements caught my eye that were made by Sethra in regards to > reincarnation. > > Firstly, page 39, in reference to the Gods and their disposition of souls > that arrive at The Halls of Judgement: > > "As they review the dead, some they have no use for... Others have skills > that might someday be useful, and those are held in the Paths of the Dead > against that use, or reincarnated into circumstance where their skills can > develop." > > Secondly, page 41, in reference to Destiny and past lives: > > "Think back to your own past, Vlad: I know what Aliera told you about your > past lives, so consider her words now... Consider those you know of who > were > once your family, and those who mattered to you in a time too faded in the > mist for you to imagine, much less remember. Kieron... remains in the > Paths > of the Dead... I, who had some importance in the tribe, am here... trying > to > see that nothing upsets the balance. I think we were all, even then, > marked > out by the gods. I can't say I like it much, or that you should, but there > it is." > > What Sethra is suggesting here is that it's not an accident that the > leaders > of the tribe that became House Dragon and, in Dolivar's case, spawned > House > Jhereg, are still around and acting as movers and shakers of present day > events. Whereas Aliera views Dolivar's reincarnation as an Easterner to be > sort of a case of mystical irony, Sethra's statements about the true > purpose > of the Paths suggests a different interpretation. > > If Sethra is right, that the Gods chose Kieron, Dolivar and Aliera-Who-Was > as important pawns even before the formation of the Empire, then the event > of Vlad's birth becomes less an accident than a matter of planning. > There's > no good reason why a Dragaeran soul should have reincarnated into an > Eastern > body. An "odd interaction of reincarnation and genetics" doesn't really > explain anything; it's just a judgement of observed facts. > > Whether it was held in the Paths for the right time or allowed to > reincarnate a few times until it was needed, the implication is that > Dolivar's soul was kept and deliberately reincarnated into an Easterner > when > the need arose. > > Given the short lifespan of Easterners and the possible subsequent loss of > Dolivar's soul (Eastern souls don't go to the Paths), the need must be > urgent (when seen relative to the lifespan of a Dragaeran or the > immortality > of a God). It's no accident that Vlad is good at what he does; he's had a > lifetime(s) of experience previously. It's no accident that he has the > favor > of Verra. He was "created" by her in a very real sense. It's no accident > that Godslayer came into his possession. The Gods "bred" him because they > sensed the impending emergence of Godslayer and they needed someone to > wield > it who would learn the neccesary skills quickly and carry it loyally. > > Note that I'm not suggesting that the Gods literally said "We need someone > to carry Godslayer." It's clear that the Lords of Judgement don't see all > ends, and Verra was rather horrified to find out that Vlad was carrying > Spellbreaker around. When she DID find out, she must have realized what it > meant and, perhaps, started to see why this particular servant of hers had > been neccesary to create. > > Now that Godslayer HAS emerged in the hands of a minion who is mystically > "appropriate" for its intended purpose, I'd expect events to start > steamrolling toward a conclusion of some kind. Note that "steamrolling" in > Dragaeran terms might be a decade or ten. It will happen "soon", though, > unless Godslayer is somehow able to extend Vlad's lifespan beyond the norm > for an Easterner. The important thing is that Dolivar, Aliera-Who-Was, and > Sethra are all wielders of Great Weapons in the service of Verra. Kieron's > Greatsword is nearly as good as a Great Weapon in the way that ancient > heroic swords tend to be and there's little doubt that he could take it > back > if he chose. Whatever purpose the Gods marked these people for, to use > Sethra's words, would appear to be coming to a head. > > The question now is, "Who is the target of _The Final Contract_?" Who has > Vlad been "bred" to kill and will he prove capable in the end? Assuming he > survives the experience, what then? Mod +1 Insightful! Scott, this is what I've been thinking too, but expressed much better. Would you mind if this speculation showed up on the Lyorn Records wiki? \Steve the younger From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 10:54:32 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:54:32 -0400 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604100959j3dcee50av56024469ed8af8b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0604100959j3dcee50av56024469ed8af8b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I thought that was stated in Dragon. My memory may be failing me. On 4/10/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 4/10/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > [Food for thought acknowledged and snipped] > > > Sethra are all wielders of Great Weapons in the service of Verra. > Kieron's > > Greatsword is nearly as good as a Great Weapon in the way that ancient > > heroic swords tend to be > > I thought it was just a sword, desired by Sethra the Younger for its > propaganda value. > > -Max > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Apr 10 11:04:47 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:04:47 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604100959j3dcee50av56024469ed8af8b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/10/06 09:59 AM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? >On 4/10/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > >[Food for thought acknowledged and snipped] > >> Sethra are all wielders of Great Weapons in the service of Verra. Kieron's >> Greatsword is nearly as good as a Great Weapon in the way that ancient >> heroic swords tend to be > >I thought it was just a sword, desired by Sethra the Younger for its >propaganda value. Well, yes, it's only a sword--sort of the way the Mona Lisa is only a painting. (Rather than a +12 painting of Psionic Vision or something.) So it's "only a sword"... Of the greatest possible cultural and historic significance for the Dragaeran Empire. But it isn't a "Great Weapon". (I might point out, however, that this does not guarantee that it is in no way magical.) I believe this is really the gist of Scott's point. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Apr 10 11:10:56 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:10:56 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604100959j3dcee50av56024469ed8af8b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01d701c65cca$1d1b5ec0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > I thought it was just a sword, desired by Sethra the Younger for its > propaganda value. > > -Max > That's a little bit like saying that Excalibur was "just a sword". Granted there's a fair amount of assumption involved, but it seems reasonable to deduce that the sword has some sort of virtue associated with it. If it was "just a sword", Aliera wouldn't have demanded it. She had no desire to use it as a rallying device; she was interested in killing the enemies of the Empire. Kieron valued it enough to threaten to leave the Paths to retrieve it. Additionally, a legendary weapon is only good as a rallying device if the populace believes that it has some virtue of its own and is able to confer that virtue onto its wielder. In a world where sorcery and witchcraft are facts of life, it's reasonable to expect that a legendary sword actually has some sort of magic associated with it. In the end, though, we don't really know. It might have its own virtue, it might not. In the hands of the greatest warrior in history, Kieron himself, it might not matter whether the sword has its own virtue. Maybe it's more correct to say that Kieron is nearly as good as a Great Weapon. ;-) From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Apr 10 11:15:19 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:15:19 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 69 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01d801c65cca$b9c3bd80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > > Mod +1 Insightful! Scott, this is what I've been thinking too, but > expressed much better. Would you mind > if this speculation showed up on the Lyorn Records wiki? > > \Steve the younger > Perfectly okay with me. :-) From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Apr 10 11:20:10 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:20:10 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <022d01c65ccb$67097f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > Well, yes, it's only a sword--sort of the way the Mona Lisa is only a > painting. (Rather than a +12 painting of Psionic Vision or something.) > Very nicely put! Thanks! From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Apr 10 11:38:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:38:31 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <022d01c65ccb$67097f70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/10/06 11:20 AM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? >> Well, yes, it's only a sword--sort of the way the Mona Lisa is only a >> painting. (Rather than a +12 painting of Psionic Vision or something.) >> > >Very nicely put! Thanks! No problem. What *I* want to see is Sethra the Younger's face when Keiron comes out of the Paths to claim it. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 11:44:14 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:44:14 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <01d701c65cca$1d1b5ec0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ddbda5f0604100959j3dcee50av56024469ed8af8b2@mail.gmail.com> <01d701c65cca$1d1b5ec0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604101144g10940c48k4e864dedbbc53829@mail.gmail.com> On 4/10/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Granted there's a fair amount of assumption involved, but it seems > reasonable to deduce that the sword has some sort of virtue associated > with > it. If it was "just a sword", Aliera wouldn't have demanded it. She had no > desire to use it as a rallying device; she was interested in killing the > enemies of the Empire. Kieron valued it enough to threaten to leave the > Paths to retrieve it. Additionally, a legendary weapon is only good as a > rallying device if the populace believes that it has some virtue of its > own > and is able to confer that virtue onto its wielder. In a world where > sorcery > and witchcraft are facts of life, it's reasonable to expect that a > legendary > sword actually has some sort of magic associated with it. In the end, > though, we don't really know. It might have its own virtue, it might not. > In > the hands of the greatest warrior in history, Kieron himself, it might not > matter whether the sword has its own virtue. Maybe it's more correct to > say > that Kieron is nearly as good as a Great Weapon. ;-) > Okay, I can see that argument is plausible. Thanks for explaining. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 17:18:43 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:18:43 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: See below question. >From: "Scott Schultz" >To: "'Dragaera'" *snip* > >The question now is, "Who is the target of _The Final Contract_?" Who has >Vlad been "bred" to kill and will he prove capable in the end? Assuming he >survives the experience, what then? > Himself, of course. Yes. No, of course he won't. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 02:53:03 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 05:53:03 -0400 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. On 4/10/06, James Griffin wrote: > > See below question. > > > >From: "Scott Schultz" > >To: "'Dragaera'" > *snip* > > > >The question now is, "Who is the target of _The Final Contract_?" Who has > >Vlad been "bred" to kill and will he prove capable in the end? Assuming > he > >survives the experience, what then? > > > Himself, of course. Yes. No, of course he won't. > > James Griffin, > > Still Another Vlad faN > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Apr 11 06:11:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:11:03 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Louis Eastman" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/11/06 02:53 AM To "James Griffin" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. On 4/10/06, James Griffin wrote: > > See below question. > > > >From: "Scott Schultz" > >To: "'Dragaera'" > *snip* > > > >The question now is, "Who is the target of _The Final Contract_?" Who has > >Vlad been "bred" to kill and will he prove capable in the end? Assuming > he > >survives the experience, what then? > > > Himself, of course. Yes. No, of course he won't. Why, it'll be Noish-pa. He finally gets fed up with Vlad's attitude and turns bad. /Boss, you're just saying that so it won't happen that way./ /Heh./ Majikjon From scs at di.org Tue Apr 11 06:36:30 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:36:30 -0400 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060411133630.GA20147@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 05:53:03AM -0400, Louis Eastman wrote: > I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. That might be accurate. The Jenoine keep getting in. Perhaps Verra has a link with them that can only be severed by preventing her from manifesting on Dragaera. 'Remover of aspects of divinity' indeed! -- "There was an orange slick of TV attorneys floating on the top of the fishbowl when Charlie got to his apartment. The Asian powers were standing in his kitchen..." -- "A Dirty Job" by Christopher Moore From howard at brazee.net Tue Apr 11 06:55:40 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 07:55:40 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <20060411133630.GA20147@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060411133630.GA20147@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <443BB55C.2020401@brazee.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 05:53:03AM -0400, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. > >That might be accurate. The Jenoine keep getting in. Perhaps Verra has a >link with them that can only be severed by preventing her from manifesting >on Dragaera. 'Remover of aspects of divinity' indeed! > > If so, is she part of the conspiracy to be assassinated? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Apr 11 07:15:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 07:15:32 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <20060411133630.GA20147@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/11/06 06:36 AM To Louis Eastman cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? >On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 05:53:03AM -0400, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. > >That might be accurate. The Jenoine keep getting in. Perhaps Verra has a >link with them that can only be severed by preventing her from manifesting >on Dragaera. 'Remover of aspects of divinity' indeed! A small girl with brown hair turns her face upward, a tear on her tiny cheek. "Why do you people want to kill my gramma?" Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 07:42:11 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:42:11 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <20060411133630.GA20147@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604110742k5ab63cd6rccebf1b90a2f8bba@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > A small girl with brown hair turns her face upward, a tear on her tiny > cheek. > > "Why do you people want to kill my gramma?" "[snorts] Don't pull that on me, Devera. You're older and more travelled than I am, and you've ripped a Jenoine apart with your teeth. Argue for her life if you want, but don't.... agkh." The disgusting thing is that it would work. Totally unfair. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Apr 11 08:52:19 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Louis Eastman wrote: > I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. Sounds like the existence of the GS implies the existence of a god to represent it, so I don't know if there's any point. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 08:56:02 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:56:02 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604110856off5c70i7cb383fa76ca4f5a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Sounds like the existence of the GS implies the existence of a > god to represent it, so I don't know if there's any point. Sorry, could you re-phrase that? A god to represent what, the Final Contract? Or Verra? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scs at di.org Tue Apr 11 09:08:26 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:08:26 -0400 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <443BB55C.2020401@brazee.net> References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060411133630.GA20147@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <443BB55C.2020401@brazee.net> Message-ID: <20060411160826.GA22209@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 07:55:40AM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > Steve Simmons wrote: > > >On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 05:53:03AM -0400, Louis Eastman wrote: > > > >>I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. > > > >That might be accurate. The Jenoine keep getting in. Perhaps Verra has a > >link with them that can only be severed by preventing her from manifesting > >on Dragaera. 'Remover of aspects of divinity' indeed! > > If so, is she part of the conspiracy to be assassinated? Harrumph. I didn't say assasinate, I carefully removed that word from my actual text. To sever her from contact with Dragaera, one need not assasinate her. Removing a small aspect of divinity would be enough, and we already know that Easterners can do that. As for her own knowledge - it could well be that as yet she doesn not know that Verra is the link. Sethra and the Necromancer might well know but keep it from her as they know she wouldn't co-operate. Verra's not the brightest bulb in the pantheon, after all. -- "There was an orange slick of TV attorneys floating on the top of the fishbowl when Charlie got to his apartment. The Asian powers were standing in his kitchen..." -- "A Dirty Job" by Christopher Moore From howard at brazee.net Tue Apr 11 09:13:44 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:13:44 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? Message-ID: <443BD5B8.70502@brazee.net> On 10:08 AM Steve Simmons wrote: > Verra's not the brightest bulb in the pantheon, after all. Well used line. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Apr 11 09:22:12 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:22:12 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <26fd01c65d84$17170a50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >There had to have been a regression in productivity/acre during >the development of the Overcast (presumably compensated by improvements >in agriculture technique, such as the nitrogen-fixing-by-Orb I suggested >back in the thread Bryan points to), in particular relative to the East. Perhaps there IS a regression, but perhaps it doesn't matter. Relying on Paarfi to be anything other than a novelist is a dangerous proposition, but even his penchant for colorful exaggeration in the name of entertainment has its limits. That is, certain day-to-day sorts of activities have to be presented in what would seem, to a Dragaeran audience, to be a believable fashion. That is, when Paarfi talks about people eating, sleeping, dressing, going about their daily affairs; if these things are overly exaggerated, then his "audience" would find the story unbelievable and Paarfi would not be the "celebrity" that he is. Assuming this to be true, then we can see from Paarfi's writings that Dragerans have something of an iron constitution. They can withstand deprivation that would kill an Easterner and suffer few, if any, ill effects from it. Case in point: Mica, when introduced to Khaavren and company, informs them that he comes to Master Cleff's inn three times a week, where he earns a meal in exchange for performing odd jobs around the place. Judging by his interview with Tazendra, this "meal" consisted chiefly of whatever scraps of food and drink were left on the dishes he cleared away. The interview begins thusly: Tazendra bowed, then, suddenly struck by a thought, said "But, have you not said that you eat only three times a week?" [Mica replied] "Yes, My Lady, but that is twice a week more than I ate before I gained this position." So Mica claims that at some point he was eating once every five days (and that probably not terribly substantial). Khaavren and his friends do not react to this statement with either surprise or horror. Their indifference would seem to indicate that, while pitiable, Mica's situation was not particularly unbelievable. That is, they accept without hesitation or even much interest that a person can eat one time every five days and be healthy, albeit hungry. Likewise, Paarfi makes no great commotion about the idea except to illustrate how much better Mica's situation will be if Tazendra accepts him as her lackey. Looking to the Vladiad, Savn and Polyi eat only two meals a day except during harvest when his parents felt he needed to keep his strength up. In actuality, I'm assuming a morning meal; only an evening meal is specifically mentioned. This assumption seems reasonable given that Tazendra entices Mica with the prospect of four meals a day; she and her friends are aristocrats and tolerably well off, at least in the meal department. In any case, (generalizing from one example) it appears that "middle-class" peasants get by on two meals a day most of the time. The point of all that being that it appears likely that the general population of the Empire probably consumes less food than the equivalent population of Easterners would. Because of this circumstance, the lesser production caused by the Enclouding may not actually be a significant factor to the citizens of the Empire. Overall, they are as healthy and happy as the people of the East are with their larger yields. An interesting side effect of this idea is that helps to explain why South Adrilankha is the way it is. That is, Easterners require more food. They generate more refuse as a result. They have nowhere to put it, so it stacks up higher and quicker than it would in an equivalent Dragaeran neighborhood, resulting in the slum conditions in the Easterner's side of town. All of which just reinforces the general Dragaeran prejudice that Easterners are a bunch of hairy barbarians who wallow in their own filth because they're too stupid and uncivilized to do anything else. This also means that social unrest related to food shortages is likely to appear first in South Adrilankha because the Easterners will feel the effects more rapidly than the Dragaerans living next to them. In fact, they'll feel it at a time when their neighbors are just thinking of things as being a "downturn in the economy", meaning that many of these riots would be considered unjustified in the minds of the people who might otherwise be sympathetic to them. This leads once again to the reinforcement of a stereotype that Easterners are just a bunch of lazy bums who want more than they're actually entitled to but that most aren't willing to actually earn. From ray at madrabbit.org Tue Apr 11 09:46:08 2006 From: ray at madrabbit.org (Ray Lee) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:46:08 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <443BDD50.3000303@madrabbit.org> Louis Eastman wrote: > I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. _Issola_ implies so. Sethra speaks of the abilities of the Gods, and the one ability they have that the Jenoine don't is to appear in two places at once. The other abilities the gods *do* have (and, we're then led to believe, the Jenoine have as well) include seeing bits of the future. That implies a reason why they picked Vlad -- they had an image of a possible future of Vlad going after his, uhm, God mother. Ray -- Every truth has a context. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Apr 11 10:28:34 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604110856off5c70i7cb383fa76ca4f5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0604110856off5c70i7cb383fa76ca4f5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 4/11/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > Sounds like the existence of the GS implies the existence of a > > god to represent it, so I don't know if there's any point. > > Sorry, could you re-phrase that? A god to represent what, the Final > Contract? Or Verra? Sethra says at the beginning of _Issola_ that the existence of the Great Sea meant that there would sooner or later be a god who incarnates Elder Sorcery. I was trying to suggest that if Verra were killed Another would arise to take Her place, so why bother. Just a joke. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 10:55:34 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:55:34 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c65cb7$b51487f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0604110856off5c70i7cb383fa76ca4f5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604111055p17fa0742l4f3e87972e6054b8@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Philip Hart wrote: > Sethra says at the beginning of _Issola_ that the existence of the Great > Sea meant that there would sooner or later be a god who incarnates Elder > Sorcery. I was trying to suggest that if Verra were killed Another would > arise to take Her place, so why bother. Just a joke. Ah. I thought "GS" here meant Godslayer. M. Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From ike at manor.org Tue Apr 11 11:03:51 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Scott Schultz" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 04/10/06 11:20 AM > > To > "'Dragaera'" > cc > > Subject > RE: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? > > > > > >> Well, yes, it's only a sword--sort of the way the Mona Lisa is only a > >> painting. (Rather than a +12 painting of Psionic Vision or something.) > >> > > > >Very nicely put! Thanks! > > No problem. > > What *I* want to see is Sethra the Younger's face when Keiron comes out of > the Paths to claim it. What if he's already on the way, as a certain yet not brown haired child with whom we, but not one of the narrators, have recently become somewhat acquainted? --Brother Ike apologies for any butcher of grammer presented herein From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Apr 11 11:06:44 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:06:44 -0700 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ike Porter Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/11/06 11:03 AM To cc "'Dragaera'" Subject RE: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> What *I* want to see is Sethra the Younger's face when Keiron comes out of >> the Paths to claim it. >What if he's already on the way, as a certain yet not brown haired child >with whom we, but not one of the narrators, have recently become somewhat >acquainted? Yes, what if? http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Speculation:Vlad_Norathar Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 11:09:25 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:09:25 -0600 Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604111109q39375ef8l6710967fa863d608@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Ike Porter wrote: > What if he's already on the way, as a certain yet not brown haired child > with whom we, but not one of the narrators, have recently become somewhat > acquainted? > > --Brother Ike > apologies for any butcher of grammer presented herein Either that's a spoiler for Dzur (Lesser Revelation of /Orca/ gets involved?) or you're suggesting that Devera is Kieron, which would just blow my mind, since Kieron is also supposedly Devera's father. If, on the other hand, LR (i.e. VN) is Kieron, this is also weird beyond belief because it makes Devera Vlad's... anyway. I look forward to reading Dzur to find out what you're talking about. Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Tue Apr 11 11:55:02 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Nicholson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:55:02 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 08 Apr 2006 13:24:57 PDT." Message-ID: <200604111855.k3BIt22A012114@vice-grips.mit.edu> > Yes -the J have a river of amorphia and a hunk of trellanstone This reminds me of an exchange in Issola that's been bugging me. Our Heroes find the trellanstone, and Vlad asks where it comes from. Someone tells him that it's usually a gift from the gods. I can't remember whether Verra was there at the time, but if she was, she didn't add anything to that analysis. If she wasn't around then, when she showed up later, they didn't ask her anything about where the trellanstone might have come from. It seems like if you have something that's a "gift from the Gods" and you have a convenient Goddess around to ask about it, you should do so. Like "hey, any breakins at the trellastone warehouse lately?" or "how do you guys make this stuff anyway?"... From steve at romlin.com Tue Apr 11 12:21:29 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:21:29 +0200 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 70 In-Reply-To: <20060411170006.789D1E9519@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060411170006.789D1E9519@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: Scott's interesting speculations on Vlad's breeding now in the wiki under: http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Speculation:Vlad_Taltos#The_Fate_of_Vlad -StY From grumpy104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 04:29:54 2006 From: grumpy104 at gmail.com (Scott Potter) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:29:54 -0400 Subject: Dzur Message-ID: <5322fb1a0604120429t78b2c418yec023dc12400b549@mail.gmail.com> summery of Dzur from Barnes & Noble page. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0765301482&itm=1 FROM THE PUBLISHER In which Vlad Taltos confronts the Left Hand of the Jhereg?and discovers the game has more players than he thought Vlad Taltos, short-statured, short-lived human in an Empire of tall, long-lived Dragaerans, has always had to keep his wits about him. Long ago, he made a place for himself as a captain of the Jhereg, the noble house that runs the rackets in the great imperial city of Adrilankha. But love, revolution, betrayal, and revenge ensued, and for years now Vlad has been a man on the run, struggling to stay a step ahead of the Jhereg who would kill him without hesitation. Now Vlad's back in Adrilankha. The rackets he used to run are now under the control of the mysterious "Left Hand of the Jhereg"?a secretive cabal of women who report to no man. His ex-wife needs his help. His old enemies aren't sure whether they want to kill him, or talk to him and then kill him. A goddess may be playing tricks with his memory. And the Great Weapon he's carrying seems to have plans of its own? Picking up directly where *Issola* left off, *Dzur* gives us Vlad Taltos at his best?swashbuckling storytelling with a wry and gritty edge. From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 06:55:39 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:55:39 -0400 Subject: Dzur In-Reply-To: <5322fb1a0604120429t78b2c418yec023dc12400b549@mail.gmail.com> References: <5322fb1a0604120429t78b2c418yec023dc12400b549@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well. I wonder if we'll finally, excuse the French, fucking find out how he lost the finger. On 4/12/06, Scott Potter wrote: > > summery of Dzur from Barnes & Noble page. > > > http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0765301482&itm=1 > > FROM THE PUBLISHER > In which Vlad Taltos confronts the Left Hand of the Jhereg?and discovers > the > game has more players than he thought > > Vlad Taltos, short-statured, short-lived human in an Empire of tall, > long-lived Dragaerans, has always had to keep his wits about him. Long > ago, > he made a place for himself as a captain of the Jhereg, the noble house > that > runs the rackets in the great imperial city of Adrilankha. But love, > revolution, betrayal, and revenge ensued, and for years now Vlad has been > a > man on the run, struggling to stay a step ahead of the Jhereg who would > kill > him without hesitation. > > Now Vlad's back in Adrilankha. The rackets he used to run are now under > the > control of the mysterious "Left Hand of the Jhereg"?a secretive cabal of > women who report to no man. His ex-wife needs his help. His old enemies > aren't sure whether they want to kill him, or talk to him and then kill > him. > A goddess may be playing tricks with his memory. And the Great Weapon he's > carrying seems to have plans of its own? > > Picking up directly where *Issola* left off, *Dzur* gives us Vlad Taltos > at > his best?swashbuckling storytelling with a wry and gritty edge. > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Apr 12 07:00:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:00:59 -0700 Subject: Dzur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Louis Eastman" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/12/06 06:55 AM To "Scott Potter" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Dzur >Well. I wonder if we'll finally, excuse the French, fucking find out how he >lost the finger. Are you kidding? The finger story is classic Brust teasing his audience. It's also the embodiment of the concept of the unreliable narrator. Every time Vlad tells a different version of the story of how he lost it, we are reminded what a consumate liar he can be. This gives SKZB an out for almost any inconsistency in the entire Vlad series. In summary: We all want to know the facts, he gives us the finger. ;-) Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 07:30:21 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:30:21 -0400 Subject: Dzur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I know. I just want to know what REALLY happened. On 4/12/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > "Louis Eastman" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 04/12/06 06:55 AM > > To > "Scott Potter" > cc > dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject > Re: Dzur > > > > > >Well. I wonder if we'll finally, excuse the French, fucking find out how > he > >lost the finger. > > Are you kidding? > > The finger story is classic Brust teasing his audience. > > It's also the embodiment of the concept of the unreliable narrator. Every > time Vlad tells a different version of the story of how he lost it, we are > reminded what a consumate liar he can be. > > This gives SKZB an out for almost any inconsistency in the entire Vlad > series. > > In summary: > > We all want to know the facts, he gives us the finger. ;-) > Majikjon > > From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Wed Apr 12 07:32:33 2006 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:32:33 -0600 Subject: FW: Interscan MSS has deleted a message Message-ID: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AA295BC@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Ok, so, what am I missing? :) Ciao, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: InterScan Notification [ mailto:IMSS-Admin2 at smiths-group.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 10:31 AM To: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info; NotificationRecipient Subject: Interscan MSS has deleted a message A message from dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info to "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" ;dragaera at dragaera.info has been deleted by the profanity scanning process on Wed Apr 12 08:30:56 2006. ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed Apr 12 08:09:22 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:09:22 -0600 Subject: Dragaera Art Contest at Opus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002201c65e43$14f4dfd0$6400a8c0@Carpovita> The above is being sent to every Elfwood member and most of the art institute in the greater Denver Metro area - but I'm willing to bet that some of you either might have some submitions or might know someone who should submit, so.... The Opus Arts Festival 2006 Dragaeran Art Contest Guidelines - The Subject Matter: The majority of Steven Brust?s books deal with a fantasy land of Dragaera, which is ruled by 17 houses. Each of these houses are represented by a fantastic animal. If you are not familiar with the books we suggest you read them, ALL, they are wonderfully entertaining. However, if you don?t have time for all of that you can get a basic description of each animal in the author?s own words at: http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/brust/houses.html The Challenge: This year at Opus we are asking artists everywhere to submit their vision of these various creatures. By the end of the weekend two versions of each house, one color and one line drawing, will be chosen from all those submitted to become the official symbols of those houses. These new pieces will be used in the forthcoming Dragaeran Tarot, as well as various other Dragaeran based products and projects. The judging will be done by Steven Brust himself. This is a wonderful opportunity for as many as 34 people to jumpstart their career and get their art into public circulation. The Details: ? All pieces should be submitted to Rion Bergquist at Carpovita at earthlink.net or snail mailed to 397 South Revere Street, Aurora, CO 80012 ? Each piece should be sent separately as a .PDF ? No piece should be larger than 2mb, sized to fit within 8.5" x 11" & be CMYK. ? Put the words "Dragaeran Tarot Opus Art Contest" in the subject line. ? Each piece must be legibly signed by the artist in the Arial font & underneath the signature please include your email address. ? By submitting your art to Opus you give Opus permission to post the art publicly at the show and to use it on any Opus promotions and website pages. ? Submit as many pieces as you wish, your attendance is not required, but as the winners will have to work with the publishers and with Steven we highly recommend that you join us at the show to ensure that your work is properly presented and promoted. ? Submition deadline is May 10th ? All entries will be displayed publicly during Opus ? as such please make sure that all submitted art is PG or kid friendlier ? As there are 34 pieces being chosen, artists are invited to submit as many pieces as they wish. The art chosen will be that which the Author and the attendees feel best embodies the spirit of the subject creatures. ? You do not have to be present at the show to win, however the author and publishers would like to meet those they will be working with and thus attendance at the show is suggested. ? Winners will be announced at closing ceremonies on Sunday May 21st. ? Winning entries will be used in the forthcoming Dragaeran Tarot that is being published through a partnership with LaymanK and Carpovita Press. This product will also be an integral part of the forthcoming Dragaera RPG, which is currently in production through Laughing Pan Press. ? Winning entries will also be eligible for use in Dragaeran logo?d fan products, such as T-Shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers etc. ? All terms and payments for use of the winning entries in the above projects and products will be discussed with the winners, and approved by them in advance of any use in any of the above. If you have any questions about this contest or the event itself that are not answered in the above guidelines or on the Opus website (www.opusfest.com) Please feel free to ask Rion via e-mail at: Carpovita at earthlink.net. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 08:13:25 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:13:25 -0600 Subject: Dzur In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > Oh, I know. I just want to know what REALLY happened. He was bitten by a rabid Teckla. Had to amputate to stop it from catching. -M. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 08:13:59 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:13:59 -0600 Subject: Dzur In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > He was bitten by a rabid Teckla. Had to amputate to stop it from catching. Er, make that "teckla." A rabid Teckla would be a bit more interesting. -M. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From howard at brazee.net Wed Apr 12 08:38:01 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:38:01 -0600 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> I wonder if for some Witchy reason he cut it off himself. Or for some loyality test. It could still exist somewhere. From ray at madrabbit.org Wed Apr 12 08:53:22 2006 From: ray at madrabbit.org (Ray Lee) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 08:53:22 -0700 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> Message-ID: <443D2272.6000202@madrabbit.org> Spoiler for Freedom & Necessity below. Hit [delete] or [next] now. Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder if for some Witchy reason he cut it off himself. There's a parallel with James in _Freedom and Necessity_, who lost a finger and afterward was calmer and more balanced. (Sorry for the dupe, Howard. I should know better than to email pre-coffee.) Ray -- Every truth has a context. From howard at brazee.net Wed Apr 12 09:03:15 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:03:15 -0600 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <443D222A.4080004@tapsys.com> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> <443D222A.4080004@tapsys.com> Message-ID: <443D24C3.9060000@brazee.net> Ray Lee wrote: >Spoiler for Freedom & Necessity below. Hit [delete] or [next] now. > > > While I have read the book and thus couldn't be spoiled - it's hard to not glance down the screen to see a spoiler that's only a few lines down from the spoiler notice. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 11:41:20 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:41:20 -0600 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0604121141u541ecc2eqd1aa8c7924f38b51@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I wonder if for some Witchy reason he cut it off himself. Or for some > loyality test. Like Morda's finger-bone (Lloyd Alexander)? Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Apr 12 12:13:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:13:04 -0700 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604121141u541ecc2eqd1aa8c7924f38b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/12/06 11:41 AM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Giving the finger >On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> I wonder if for some Witchy reason he cut it off himself. Or for some >> loyality test. > >Like Morda's finger-bone (Lloyd Alexander)? Hmm, If I recall correctly, Morda had wrapped up his soul in that finger-bone, which made him think he was immortal. When Taran surprised him by finding it and waving it in his face, he was seriously put out. This sounds remarkably like "Putting his soul in a box", (Or a staff, or a sword, etc) the way a Wizard does in Dragaera. Has Vlad perhaps been studying to be a wizard? Is his finger holding his soul and making him immortal? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Apr 12 12:24:50 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:24:50 -0600 Subject: Giving the finger Message-ID: <443D5402.1030402@brazee.net> On 1:13 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Hmm, If I recall correctly, Morda had wrapped up his soul in that > finger-bone, which made him think he was immortal. When Taran > surprised > him by finding it and waving it in his face, he was seriously put > out. While the most common use of this in storytelling seems to be as an Achilles heel, where the Chinese Wizard is invulnerable until you find his soul, I am also intrigued by the option to save one's soul - as in Gaiman's _Neverwhere_. If Vlad is somehow connected to that finger, lots of possibilities exist - from him being controllable , Demon like, or summonable, or that he can use it to find refuge or even access to someplace otherwise inaccessible. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Apr 12 12:35:26 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <443D5402.1030402@brazee.net> References: <443D5402.1030402@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > If Vlad is somehow connected to that finger [...] There's a mid-century short story by a leading American writer about a saint who in his days as a sinner lost his big toe to the devil playing poker. When the angel comes to take the saint to heaven, Satan refuses to give up the toe, and the poor saint still feels the fires of hell in his lost digit. Anyway, something like that. Maybe it's by Steinbeck - google isn't helping. From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Wed Apr 12 12:48:40 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Nicholson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:48:40 -0400 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:13:04 PDT." Message-ID: <200604121948.k3CJmeLG017121@vice-grips.mit.edu> With the risk of re-opening a new flame war, this thread makes me wish we had subject labels for this mailing list. I've probably deleted half the messages, because "giving the finger" just looks way too much like spam. > "Maximilian Wilson" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 04/12/06 11:41 AM > > To > Dragaera > cc > > Subject > Re: Giving the finger > > > > > >On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> I wonder if for some Witchy reason he cut it off himself. Or for some > >> loyality test. > > > >Like Morda's finger-bone (Lloyd Alexander)? > > Hmm, If I recall correctly, Morda had wrapped up his soul in that > finger-bone, which made him think he was immortal. When Taran surprised > him by finding it and waving it in his face, he was seriously put out. > > This sounds remarkably like "Putting his soul in a box", (Or a staff, or a > sword, etc) the way a Wizard does in Dragaera. > > Has Vlad perhaps been studying to be a wizard? Is his finger holding his > soul and making him immortal? > Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Apr 12 12:55:27 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:55:27 -0700 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <200604121948.k3CJmeLG017121@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: Joy Nicholson Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/12/06 12:48 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Dragaera Subject Re: Giving the finger >With the risk of re-opening a new flame war, this thread makes me wish >we had subject labels for this mailing list. I've probably deleted >half the messages, because "giving the finger" just looks way too much >like spam. That's why I like to check the online archive for recent messages. Just in case I miss or accidentaly delete anything. http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/ Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Apr 12 12:59:11 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:59:11 -0600 Subject: Giving the finger Message-ID: <443D5C0F.5010504@brazee.net> On 1:48 PM Joy Nicholson wrote: > With the risk of re-opening a new flame war, this thread makes me wish > we had subject labels for this mailing list. I've probably deleted > half the messages, because "giving the finger" just looks way too much > like spam. Spam for what? Certainly not erectile dysfunction drugs. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Apr 12 15:24:22 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:24:22 -0400 Subject: Giving the finger Message-ID: <64BCEB1D.722F9343.00048EA6@aol.com> Howard Brazee writes: > While the most common use of this in storytelling seems to be as an > Achilles heel, where the Chinese Wizard is invulnerable until you > find his soul, "Why, one of those dolts was so mindless that he hid his heart inside the body of a lizard that was inside a cage that was on top of the head of a serpent that was on top of a tree that was guarded by lions, tigers, and scorpions! Another cretin, and may Buddha strike me if I lie, concealed his heart inside an egg that was inside a duck that was inside a basket that was inside a chest that was on an island that was in the middle of an uncharted ocean. Needless to say, both of those numbskulls were destroyed by the first half-witted heroes who came along." (Barry Hughart, _The Bridge of Birds_) -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 17:12:33 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:12:33 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <002201c65c46$ea693f70$f9a172d8@hal> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> <002201c65c46$ea693f70$f9a172d8@hal> Message-ID: On 4/9/06, Tom Lumbis wrote: > > > And I would just like to point out that that "the only room" (and the > > related statements about time and space) was almost certainly Teldra > > incorrectly inferring something about the Jenoine mind. > > > > I suspect that the Dragaeran linguistics curriculum includes a little > > too much linguistic determinism. No doubt there's a local equivalent > > of Sapir-Whorf, probably from House Athyra. > > Teldra incorrectly inferring something about the Jenoine mind? > Ouch. Sure, she's only.... 'human', but... she's an Issola. Her entire race > is one of reserved and graceful observers. She makes valid points about > being able to infer certain things about a race by their language - I don't > believe she's fallen victim to linguistic determinism when she makes > carefully thoughtout and educated guesses about the Jenoine. :-D > I acknowledge that I may have been overly harsh in my judgement. I re-read that passage, and I noted that Teldra was *trying* to convey a difficult-to-understand concept. She sort of trails off, though, and it is Sethra, specifically, who says that to the Jenoine, there was "only one room". And Vlad replies "Rubbish" to Sethra's statements, rather than to Teldra's (which fits more with how I perceive his relationship with both Teldra and Sethra). But still I don't think that Teldra or Sethra were correctly describing how the Jenoine think. The essence of my problem with that "only one room" idea is what Vlad points out: No matter what else extra the Jenoine are or can do, they are also three-dimensional entities who can move about in three dimensions. They may be able to perceive and move in additional dimensions/planes of existence/other realities as well, but they should have a perfectly fine grasp of what a "place" is, and what an additional place is. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 17:49:13 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:49:13 -0700 Subject: FW: Interscan MSS has deleted a message In-Reply-To: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AA295BC@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> References: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AA295BC@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Durston, Andrew (AGRE) wrote: > > > > Ok, so, what am I missing? :) > An uncensored mailing host. > > -----Original Message----- > From: InterScan Notification [ > Subject: Interscan MSS has deleted a message > > A message from dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info to > ;dragaera at dragaera.info has been deleted by the > profanity scanning process on Wed Apr 12 08:30:56 2006. > The objectionable word was presumably the gerund form of a four-letter Anglo-Saxon monosyllable which usually refers to an act which is referred to in the bible euphemistically as "to know", but which in this case was used as an otherwise meaningless intensifier. "I wonder if we'll finally, excuse the French, ___ing find out how he lost the finger." From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 17:57:58 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:57:58 -0700 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <443D5C0F.5010504@brazee.net> References: <443D5C0F.5010504@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > On 1:48 PM Joy Nicholson wrote: > > With the risk of re-opening a new flame war, this thread makes me wish > > we had subject labels for this mailing list. I've probably deleted > > half the messages, because "giving the finger" just looks way too much > > like spam. > > Spam for what? Certainly not erectile dysfunction drugs. Ahem. Certain advertisers sometimes pretend that they have images of individuals, presumably attractive, performing certain acts. These acts might well involve a finger, perhaps being inserted into, well, certain possible locations. Alternatively, political spam might suggest "giving the finger" to a least favorite political individual and/or party. And finally, certain individuals who specialize in medical fraud might request aid on behalf of some poor waif whom they pretend has had a digit amputed. "Little Timmy had his poor little finger cut off. Won't you help us give him one, so that he can play baseball again?" From howard at brazee.net Wed Apr 12 19:41:15 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:41:15 -0600 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: References: <443D5C0F.5010504@brazee.net> Message-ID: <443DBA4B.6050102@brazee.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >>On 1:48 PM Joy Nicholson wrote: >> >> >>> With the risk of re-opening a new flame war, this thread makes me wish >>> we had subject labels for this mailing list. I've probably deleted >>> half the messages, because "giving the finger" just looks way too much >>> like spam. >>> >>> >>Spam for what? Certainly not erectile dysfunction drugs. >> >> > >Ahem. Certain advertisers sometimes pretend that they have images of >individuals, presumably attractive, performing certain acts. These >acts might well involve a finger, perhaps being inserted into, well, >certain possible locations. > >Alternatively, political spam might suggest "giving the finger" to a >least favorite political individual and/or party. > >And finally, certain individuals who specialize in medical fraud might >request aid on behalf of some poor waif whom they pretend has had a >digit amputed. > >"Little Timmy had his poor little finger cut off. Won't you help us >give him one, so that he can play baseball again?" > > That type of stretching can apply to any and all headings. From pulmon at mac.com Thu Apr 13 06:42:21 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 09:42:21 -0400 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604121141u541ecc2eqd1aa8c7924f38b51@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> <443D1ED9.9000505@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604121141u541ecc2eqd1aa8c7924f38b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17F3B3F8-839A-49F1-91FC-E049E94F9077@mac.com> By losing his finger, Vlad has altered reality. Thus, in the performance of certain spells that involve arithmetic he now operates not in the traditional base 10, but in the Jenoine-deceiving Base 9, creating a novel environment for digital calculation.... On Apr 12, 2006, at 2:41 PM, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> I wonder if for some Witchy reason he cut it off himself. Or for >> some >> loyality test. > > Like Morda's finger-bone (Lloyd Alexander)? > > Max > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > listinfo/dragaera Kenneth J. Gorelick, MD, FCCP President and Chief Operating Officer 1 Maplewood Drive Newtown Square, PA 19073 tel: 610-325-9253 fax: 610-325-9252 mobile: 610-659-8236 From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Apr 13 07:10:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:10:19 -0700 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? Message-ID: Given that the Dragaeran Empire apparently has several different intelligence services, I was curious if the several we know about have real-world equivalents. "Division Six" seems to be a direct reference to "MI-6" (British Secret Service) "Imperial Surveilence Corps" might be the FBI (Operates domestically, substitute "Federal" for "Imperial") "Third Floor Relic" didn't make any sense, until I noticed that the logo for the Mossad (Israeli Intelligence) features two steps, on top of which (on the "Third Floor") sits a menorah (a sort of Relic). I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" or the Secret Service. Can anyone think of any clues from /Orca/ that might nail this one down? Majikjon From books at bofh.com Thu Apr 13 07:53:33 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:53:33 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <004301c659cf$544813f0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20060413145333.GA28277@bofh.com> Coming in late to the discussion. On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 10:43:08AM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > 3. In /Issola/ Our heroes go to another world which is noticeably heavier, > yet has a (somewhat) breathable atmosphere. If this world is, say at the > 1.2g level, it'd be a very noticeable difference to a Dragaeran, without > being so far from Earth-normal to make a breathable atmosphere unlikely. I don't of Issola in front of me, but my impression was not that it was heavier, but that the air was less dense, and thus had less oxygen. This explains: 1) Vlad had to control his breathing by breathing shallow, not deep. If it were heavier, it would be more exertion, and deep breathing would be more likely. 2) Loiosh had a harder time flying. Less generated lift due to less dense atmosphere. I'll re-read and see if there are textevs that show that heavier is more likely than "higher altitude". -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night." - Dave Barry From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Apr 13 08:15:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:15:43 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <20060413145333.GA28277@bofh.com> Message-ID: Jot Powers Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/13/06 07:53 AM Please respond to Jot Powers To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >Coming in late to the discussion. > >On Fri, Apr 07, 2006 at 10:43:08AM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> 3. In /Issola/ Our heroes go to another world which is noticeably heavier, >> yet has a (somewhat) breathable atmosphere. If this world is, say at the >> 1.2g level, it'd be a very noticeable difference to a Dragaeran, without >> being so far from Earth-normal to make a breathable atmosphere unlikely. > >I don't of Issola in front of me, but my impression was not that it was >heavier, but that the air was less dense, and thus had less oxygen. This >explains: > >1) Vlad had to control his breathing by breathing shallow, not deep. If >it were heavier, it would be more exertion, and deep breathing would be >more likely. >2) Loiosh had a harder time flying. Less generated lift due to less >dense atmosphere. > >I'll re-read and see if there are textevs that show that heavier is more >likely than "higher altitude". Issola, pg 51 (paperback): [cite] The first thing I noticed was that I felt heavier--perhaps the result of a general protection spell against anyone who doesn't belong, or it might also be some natural property of the place. [/cite] I won't dispute that the atmosphere was less dense (which seems likely), but this statement (as well as later statements, which seem to favor the latter theory as the cause of the weight difference) says that there was indeed a noticable heaviness about the place that was separate from the atmospheric conditions (which Vlad doesn't notice until later on). At a guess, I would say the effects of the atmosphere on our heroes maybe less due to a lack of oxygen (which I think would tend to inspire deeper breathing), than to the presence of some other contaminant (CO2?) introducing a mild poisoning effect (which would encourage shallow breathing). Majikjon From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Thu Apr 13 08:45:10 2006 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Nicholson) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:45:10 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:15:43 PDT." Message-ID: <200604131545.k3DFjAth020011@vice-grips.mit.edu> > > At a guess, I would say the effects of the atmosphere on our heroes maybe > less due to a lack of oxygen (which I think would tend to inspire deeper > breathing), than to the presence of some other contaminant (CO2?) > introducing a mild poisoning effect (which would encourage shallow > breathing). > I imagined the opposite. The atmosphere is more oxygen-rich, therefore taking normal/deep breaths results in hyperventlating. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Apr 13 08:52:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:52:53 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <200604131545.k3DFjAth020011@vice-grips.mit.edu> Message-ID: Joy Nicholson 04/13/06 08:45 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Jot Powers , dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) >> At a guess, I would say the effects of the atmosphere on our heroes maybe >> less due to a lack of oxygen (which I think would tend to inspire deeper >> breathing), than to the presence of some other contaminant (CO2?) >> introducing a mild poisoning effect (which would encourage shallow >> breathing). >> > >I imagined the opposite. The atmosphere is more oxygen-rich, >therefore taking normal/deep breaths results in hyperventlating. Here's another clue, Issola Pg 51: [cite] The air smelled funny, sort of sweet with a queer kind of tang in it. [/cite] This may, indeed, indicate an abundance of Oxygen, rather than a lack, but to me this actually sounds very similar to what they think happened at the ancient greek oracle at Delphi. Recent evidence has suggested that the visions of the preisteses at Delphi were due to a peculiar concentration of a complex hydrocarbon similar to ether that would act as a mild sedative and send them into a trance-like state. These fumes were produced from underground fissures (which explains why the Oracle stopped being used shortly after an Earthquake that is presumed to have shut off the underground vents). The documentary I saw on this described the smell of the ether as a "sweet perfume-like odor". Or maybe this is reading too much into a single line of text. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 12:02:33 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:02:33 -0400 Subject: Dzur In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0604120813x3794dcd1rff0c85b4118cfdba@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604120813w623abc63k58249e5f1af8796c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And it would be very, very dead. On 4/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > On 4/12/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > He was bitten by a rabid Teckla. Had to amputate to stop it from > catching. > > Er, make that "teckla." A rabid Teckla would be a bit more interesting. > > -M. > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 12:04:11 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:04:11 -0400 Subject: FW: Interscan MSS has deleted a message In-Reply-To: References: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AA295BC@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Message-ID: Er...I think I'm being insulted. Am I? Now I'm just confused. On 4/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 4/12/06, Durston, Andrew (AGRE) > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ok, so, what am I missing? :) > > > > An uncensored mailing host. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: InterScan Notification [ > > Subject: Interscan MSS has deleted a message > > > > A message from dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info to > > ;dragaera at dragaera.info has been deleted by the > > profanity scanning process on Wed Apr 12 08:30:56 2006. > > > > The objectionable word was presumably the gerund form of a four-letter > Anglo-Saxon monosyllable which usually refers to an act which is > referred to in the bible euphemistically as "to know", but which in > this case was used as an otherwise meaningless intensifier. > > "I wonder if we'll finally, excuse the French, ___ing find out how he > lost the finger." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060413/2d92c2b7/attachment.html From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 12:06:30 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:06:30 -0400 Subject: Giving the finger In-Reply-To: References: <443D5C0F.5010504@brazee.net> Message-ID: That gave me a chuckle I desperately needed. Thanks. On 4/12/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 4/12/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > On 1:48 PM Joy Nicholson wrote: > > > With the risk of re-opening a new flame war, this thread makes me > wish > > > we had subject labels for this mailing list. I've probably deleted > > > half the messages, because "giving the finger" just looks way too > much > > > like spam. > > > > Spam for what? Certainly not erectile dysfunction drugs. > > Ahem. Certain advertisers sometimes pretend that they have images of > individuals, presumably attractive, performing certain acts. These > acts might well involve a finger, perhaps being inserted into, well, > certain possible locations. > > Alternatively, political spam might suggest "giving the finger" to a > least favorite political individual and/or party. > > And finally, certain individuals who specialize in medical fraud might > request aid on behalf of some poor waif whom they pretend has had a > digit amputed. > > "Little Timmy had his poor little finger cut off. Won't you help us > give him one, so that he can play baseball again?" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060413/df8ebb62/attachment.htm From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 12:08:57 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:08:57 +0200 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:10:19 -0700 > >Given that the Dragaeran Empire apparently has several different >intelligence services, I was curious if the several we know about have >real-world equivalents. > >"Division Six" seems to be a direct reference to "MI-6" (British Secret >Service) >"Imperial Surveilence Corps" might be the FBI (Operates domestically, >substitute "Federal" for "Imperial") >"Third Floor Relic" didn't make any sense, until I noticed that the logo >for the Mossad (Israeli Intelligence) features two steps, on top of which >(on the "Third Floor") sits a menorah (a sort of Relic). > >I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but >this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" >or the Secret Service. > >Can anyone think of any clues from /Orca/ that might nail this one down? > >Majikjon > Very interesting! STG could refer to SAS, which is either Special Air Service, the principal special forces organisation of the British Army or Special Activities Staff, the CIA's paramilitary division or even S?rskilda skyddsgruppen (Special Protection Group), a Swedish special forces branch. :) From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 12:09:20 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:09:20 -0400 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, they only sent two, so they're obviously capable, and that while Loftis was in charge, Timmer, his associate, was under Domm's command because he outranked her. My knowledge is limited in military matters such as this, but I would think they're from the equivalent of a Special Forces or Spetznaz unit. On 4/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Given that the Dragaeran Empire apparently has several different > intelligence services, I was curious if the several we know about have > real-world equivalents. > > "Division Six" seems to be a direct reference to "MI-6" (British Secret > Service) > "Imperial Surveilence Corps" might be the FBI (Operates domestically, > substitute "Federal" for "Imperial") > "Third Floor Relic" didn't make any sense, until I noticed that the logo > for the Mossad (Israeli Intelligence) features two steps, on top of which > (on the "Third Floor") sits a menorah (a sort of Relic). > > I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but > this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" > or the Secret Service. > > Can anyone think of any clues from /Orca/ that might nail this one down? > > Majikjon > > From lairdb at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 12:47:15 2006 From: lairdb at gmail.com (L. Broadfield) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:47:15 -0700 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: [...] > I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but > this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" > or the Secret Service. The forerunner of the CIA was "Wild" Bill Donovan's Office of Strategic Services. Possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services) From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 13:05:23 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:05:23 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: > > > > >> At a guess, I would say the effects of the atmosphere on our heroes > maybe > >> less due to a lack of oxygen (which I think would tend to inspire > deeper > >> breathing), than to the presence of some other contaminant (CO2?) > >> introducing a mild poisoning effect (which would encourage shallow > >> breathing). > >> > > > >I imagined the opposite. The atmosphere is more oxygen-rich, > >therefore taking normal/deep breaths results in hyperventlating. > > Here's another clue, Issola Pg 51: > > [cite] > > The air smelled funny, sort of sweet with a queer kind of tang in it. > > [/cite] > > The documentary I saw on this described the smell of the ether as a "sweet > perfume-like odor". > > Or maybe this is reading too much into a single line of text. > > Majikjon > Or, they could be in Vegas. The air sucks there as well, and I know after playing cards all night I feel heavier and lethargic. jeff - thinks Vegas looks pretty. . . after dark. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 13:06:08 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:06:08 -0700 Subject: Fw: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? Message-ID: > On 4/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > [...] > > I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but > > this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" > > or the Secret Service. > > The forerunner of the CIA was "Wild" Bill Donovan's Office of > Strategic Services. Possible. > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services) > > This is more likely, the only (US) military group allowed to run amuk inside > the US is Delta Force. The problem with tracking done the original > motivation is that govt organizations change acronyms rather often. > > jeff > - is no longer affected by the Posse Comitatus act either. > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Apr 13 13:17:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Jeff wrote: > Or, they could be in Vegas. The air sucks there as well, and I know after > playing cards all night I feel heavier and lethargic. Don't they pipe in O2 when they want people to keep playing? Anyway, it's a plot point in a Dortmunder novel. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 13:23:15 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:23:15 -0700 Subject: FW: Interscan MSS has deleted a message In-Reply-To: References: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AA295BC@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Message-ID: On 4/13/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > Er...I think I'm being insulted. Am I? Now I'm just confused. > Oh, not in the least. Any snarkiness of tone that you may have percieved was not aimed at you or at the recipient or the original sender or anyone else on the mailing list, but rather at the very idea of a mail server that is implemented so as to delete an entire message simply for containing a "bad word", and for no other reason. I am tempted to forward George Carlin's famous skit which involves the words that cannot be said on broadcast television, just to give that stupid, smarmy, net-nanny-filter something to get excited over, but this thread has been off-topic enough as it is. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 13:24:33 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:24:33 -0400 Subject: FW: Interscan MSS has deleted a message In-Reply-To: References: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AA295BC@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Message-ID: Sorry. Having real life problems muddles one's head. Usually I'm good at telling this. On 4/13/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 4/13/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > > Er...I think I'm being insulted. Am I? Now I'm just confused. > > > > Oh, not in the least. Any snarkiness of tone that you may have > percieved was not aimed at you or at the recipient or the original > sender or anyone else on the mailing list, but rather at the very idea > of a mail server that is implemented so as to delete an entire message > simply for containing a "bad word", and for no other reason. > > I am tempted to forward George Carlin's famous skit which involves the > words that cannot be said on broadcast television, just to give that > stupid, smarmy, net-nanny-filter something to get excited over, but > this thread has been off-topic enough as it is. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060413/d99aa405/attachment.html From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Apr 13 13:24:37 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Jeff wrote: > > This is more likely, the only (US) military group allowed to run amuk > > inside the US is Delta Force. The problem with tracking done the > > original motivation is that govt organizations change acronyms rather > > often. "Task Force 6-26 was a creation of the Pentagon's post-Sept. 11 campaign against terrorism, and it quickly became the model for how the military would gain intelligence and battle insurgents in the future. Originally known as Task Force 121, it was formed in the summer of 2003, when the military merged two existing Special Operations units, one hunting Osama bin Laden in and around Afghanistan, and the other tracking Mr. Hussein in Iraq. (Its current name is Task Force 145.)" http://reasonablereflection.net/meadesmaxim/human-rights/45-and-the-torture-net-widens I think Vlad would call them information-extraction specialists - unofficial slogan, "No blood, no foul". From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 14:41:37 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:41:37 -0700 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: <000e01c65ea5$33c9dd40$e5a172d8@hal> References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604082137q4017260cr5c976b55e3d06fa1@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> <002201c65c46$ea693f70$f9a172d8@hal> <000e01c65ea5$33c9dd40$e5a172d8@hal> Message-ID: On 4/12/06, Tom Lumbis wrote: > > I re-read that passage, and I noted that Teldra was *trying* to convey > > a difficult-to-understand concept. She sort of trails off, though, > > and it is Sethra, specifically, who says that to the Jenoine, there > > was "only one room". And Vlad replies "Rubbish" to Sethra's > > statements, rather than to Teldra's (which fits more with how I > > perceive his relationship with both Teldra and Sethra). > > > > But still I don't think that Teldra or Sethra were correctly > > describing how the Jenoine think. > > > > The essence of my problem with that "only one room" idea is what Vlad > > points out: No matter what else extra the Jenoine are or can do, they > > are also three-dimensional entities who can move about in three > > dimensions. They may be able to perceive and move in additional > > dimensions/planes of existence/other realities as well, but they > > should have a perfectly fine grasp of what a "place" is, and what an > > additional place is. > > Of the three persons you mentioned Vlad is the least knowledgable about the > Jenoine. Perhaps. Then again, I note that Teldra mentioned that when she and Vlad left the room, it was sort of as if they went spirit walking (from the Jenoine prespective)(although she qualifies that statement). Vlad has actually done a bit of spirit walking (or rather, involuntary dreamwalking, which I believe is the same thing, in /Dragon/), so he does at least have a sense of how weird that is. > I believe Teldra makes a comment about the word "place" and how the Jenoine > only use the word in relation to mathematics - which would indicate that > they do not entirely grasp the term as we do(and vice versa). And I still don't quite buy this. I was wondering what the course material is that the Jenoine language is taught from. If the corpus of Jenoine works is mostly some genetics texts and some really high-flown and esoteric philosophy texts, then of course students of the Jenoine language are going to get a very skewed idea of how Jenoine think. If the only text that some aliens had of ours was that all-time best seller, the King James translation of the bible, and maybe also some textbooks on general relativity and quantum mechanics, they might get a very very strange idea indeed of how 20th-century Americans actually think. > Because the Jenoine can exist in our heroes' world does not mean they grasp > the world as our heroes do. > > It's fairly pointless speculation because, like Vlad and company, we do not > understand the Jenoine. > They seemed to think that the Necromancer could understand at least the Jenoine concept of "place". I would like to see exactly how the Necromancer would explain how the Jenoine "really" think in a way that satisfies my (and Vlad's) pragmatic objections. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 16:08:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:08:27 -0700 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Given that the Dragaeran Empire apparently has several different > intelligence services, I was curious if the several we know about have > real-world equivalents. > > "Division Six" seems to be a direct reference to "MI-6" (British Secret > Service) > "Imperial Surveilence Corps" might be the FBI (Operates domestically, > substitute "Federal" for "Imperial") > "Third Floor Relic" didn't make any sense, until I noticed that the logo > for the Mossad (Israeli Intelligence) features two steps, on top of which > (on the "Third Floor") sits a menorah (a sort of Relic). That seems to be way too much of a reach, to me. Third Floor Relic is a *small* group, that reports directly to the Empress, and works on very specific and narrowly defined objectives. None of that description really works for the Mossad. I would suggest looking into historical intelligence groups, and possibly fictional ones as well (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, maybe?). I did a bit of research on Wikipedia, and haven't found anything that looks quite right yet. > I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but > this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" > or the Secret Service. > > Can anyone think of any clues from /Orca/ that might nail this one down? > Well, consider who they report to: Khaavren is head of the Imperial Guard. That seems to make them an analog of the Secret Service and/or Military Intelligence. Or so I might guess, anyway. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 17:07:21 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:07:21 -0400 Subject: Speculative Planetary Statistics for Dragaera (Math help?) In-Reply-To: References: <4437B165.4000000@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0604082137ye7f77d9u4b8c10b7eedebf63@mail.gmail.com> <002601c65bee$f58e0ff0$5aa272d8@hal> <002201c65c46$ea693f70$f9a172d8@hal> <000e01c65ea5$33c9dd40$e5a172d8@hal> Message-ID: The real question is does Steve know, or is he faking it as he goes? On 4/13/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 4/12/06, Tom Lumbis wrote: > > > I re-read that passage, and I noted that Teldra was *trying* to convey > > > a difficult-to-understand concept. She sort of trails off, though, > > > and it is Sethra, specifically, who says that to the Jenoine, there > > > was "only one room". And Vlad replies "Rubbish" to Sethra's > > > statements, rather than to Teldra's (which fits more with how I > > > perceive his relationship with both Teldra and Sethra). > > > > > > But still I don't think that Teldra or Sethra were correctly > > > describing how the Jenoine think. > > > > > > The essence of my problem with that "only one room" idea is what Vlad > > > points out: No matter what else extra the Jenoine are or can do, they > > > are also three-dimensional entities who can move about in three > > > dimensions. They may be able to perceive and move in additional > > > dimensions/planes of existence/other realities as well, but they > > > should have a perfectly fine grasp of what a "place" is, and what an > > > additional place is. > > > > Of the three persons you mentioned Vlad is the least knowledgable about > the > > Jenoine. > > Perhaps. > > Then again, I note that Teldra mentioned that when she and Vlad left > the room, it was sort of as if they went spirit walking (from the > Jenoine prespective)(although she qualifies that statement). > > Vlad has actually done a bit of spirit walking (or rather, involuntary > dreamwalking, which I believe is the same thing, in /Dragon/), so he > does at least have a sense of how weird that is. > > > I believe Teldra makes a comment about the word "place" and how the > Jenoine > > only use the word in relation to mathematics - which would indicate that > > they do not entirely grasp the term as we do(and vice versa). > > And I still don't quite buy this. > > I was wondering what the course material is that the Jenoine language > is taught from. If the corpus of Jenoine works is mostly some > genetics texts and some really high-flown and esoteric philosophy > texts, then of course students of the Jenoine language are going to > get a very skewed idea of how Jenoine think. > > If the only text that some aliens had of ours was that all-time best > seller, the King James translation of the bible, and maybe also some > textbooks on general relativity and quantum mechanics, they might get > a very very strange idea indeed of how 20th-century Americans actually > think. > > > Because the Jenoine can exist in our heroes' world does not mean they > grasp > > the world as our heroes do. > > > > It's fairly pointless speculation because, like Vlad and company, we do > not > > understand the Jenoine. > > > > They seemed to think that the Necromancer could understand at least > the Jenoine concept of "place". I would like to see exactly how the > Necromancer would explain how the Jenoine "really" think in a way that > satisfies my (and Vlad's) pragmatic objections. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060413/ce2c32c2/attachment.htm From rone at ennui.org Thu Apr 13 22:37:26 2006 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: because my brother and i are funny Message-ID: <20060414053726.6579E68484@boredom.ennui.org> A friend asked in her journal if anyone reading had her copies of "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Phoenix Guards". My response: They've been combined into "Aerich Shrugged". My brother's response to me: "Who is Adron e'Kieron?" Later, there is an 80 page monologue by Khaavren about the nature of Empire and how the superior human is dragged down by the masses of envious Teckla. That is all. Return to your homes. rone -- "Somebody stole my set list?! Oh well, that's IT! I'm just going to have to TALK for forty minutes!" - Kristin Hersh From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 14 08:47:37 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:47:37 -0700 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/13/06 04:08 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? >On 4/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Given that the Dragaeran Empire apparently has several different >> intelligence services, I was curious if the several we know about have >> real-world equivalents. >> >> "Division Six" seems to be a direct reference to "MI-6" (British Secret >> Service) >> "Imperial Surveilence Corps" might be the FBI (Operates domestically, >> substitute "Federal" for "Imperial") >> "Third Floor Relic" didn't make any sense, until I noticed that the logo >> for the Mossad (Israeli Intelligence) features two steps, on top of which >> (on the "Third Floor") sits a menorah (a sort of Relic). > >That seems to be way too much of a reach, to me. Third Floor Relic is >a *small* group, that reports directly to the Empress, and works on >very specific and narrowly defined objectives. None of that >description really works for the Mossad. Well, I was more going just for where the *names* came from. Certainly, the Mossad seems to operate a bit differently than the "Third Floor Relic", but it seems to me that the menorah on the third step may well be where the *name* came from... At least, I have been unable to come up with a better theory. I could be wrong. Only Steve knows for sure. >> I was trying to find a direct reference for "Special Tasks Group", but >> this is less clear, it seems more like the CIA, Or maybe "Special Forces" >> or the Secret Service. >> >> Can anyone think of any clues from /Orca/ that might nail this one down? >> > >Well, consider who they report to: Khaavren is head of the Imperial >Guard. That seems to make them an analog of the Secret Service and/or >Military Intelligence. Or so I might guess, anyway. Well, again, looking at just the names, the SAS (paramilitary branch of the CIA) seemed to me the closest match. In this case, it actually does seem to be fairly close in how it operates and behaves, as well. Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Apr 14 09:33:49 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:33:49 -0400 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443FCEED.6040902@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Well, again, looking at just the names, the SAS (paramilitary branch of >the CIA) seemed to me the closest match. In this case, it actually does >seem to be fairly close in how it operates and behaves, as well. > > > ? The only SAS I am aware of is entirely British, and entirely military. The CIA has no paramilitaries of its own. Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 14 10:10:14 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:10:14 -0700 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: <443FCEED.6040902@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/14/06 09:33 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> >>Well, again, looking at just the names, the SAS (paramilitary branch of >>the CIA) seemed to me the closest match. In this case, it actually does >>seem to be fairly close in how it operates and behaves, as well. >> >> >> >? The only SAS I am aware of is entirely British, and entirely >military. The CIA has no paramilitaries of its own. I was repeating the one mentioned by Martin in the post: http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2006q2/002246.html He mentioned the CIA-related "Special Activities Staff" (or Division) listed on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Staff Majikjon From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 15 16:01:46 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 00:01:46 +0100 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: <443FCEED.6040902@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20060415230200.MCDY19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Ken Koester Sent: 14 April 2006 17:34 ? The only SAS I am aware of is entirely British, and entirely military. The CIA has no paramilitaries of its own. Australia and New Zealand also have their own SAS. Not as well funded as the British, but VERY good. The Australians are supposed to be rated slightly better than the British at jungle warfare, but at that level, the difference wouldn't matter. Cheers Mark From chica at dreamcafe.com Sun Apr 16 00:20:24 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 00:20:24 -0700 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL Message-ID: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> Had hoped that he'd be able to post this weekend. Alas, it is not the case. Same applies to weblog. Mean to add a comment there presently. Please do not email Steve until it is posted that his computer has resumed operation. Look here and on LiveJournal, please, in about a week. He'll still have a heap of list messages to sort through. :> Thanks. And please do not email me directly next week, seeking Steve; I will be afk until 25-April. Steve is wrapping up Brokedown Palace page proofs... --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Apr 16 18:08:16 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: because my brother and i are funny In-Reply-To: <20060414053726.6579E68484@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20060417010816.3650.qmail@web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- rone wrote: [...] > > That is all. Return to your homes. This is not the discussion you are looking for. Fnord. You can go about your business. m a m __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From casey at the-bat.net Sun Apr 16 04:54:09 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 07:54:09 -0400 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL In-Reply-To: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> References: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <44423061.7090909@the-bat.net> A.S. Zanoni wrote: > Had hoped that he'd be able to post this weekend. Alas, it is not the > case. > > Same applies to weblog. Mean to add a comment there presently. > Please do not email Steve until it is posted that his computer has > resumed operation. Look here and on LiveJournal, please, in about a > week. > > He'll still have a heap of list messages to sort through. :> > > Thanks. > > > And please do not email me directly next week, seeking Steve; I will > be afk until 25-April. Steve is wrapping up Brokedown Palace page > proofs... Well, if he needs a breather after he's done with that, I've just finished a good read that I expect might do well as entertainment. In any case, I feel confident that it will find a few fans here generally. _His Majesty's Dragon_ is the first of a series by Naomi Novik. Napoleonic era British Navy Captain becomes an aviator in the Dragon Corps. Not quite as detailed in it's descriptions of the period as Patrick O'Brian, but better than say C. S. Forrester. What's better, the first three novels are being issued back to back in massmarket paper starting this month. (They're a month or two ahead of us in the UK in hardcover. The first volume is _Temeraire_ there.) From almagaiz at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 03:46:21 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 06:46:21 -0400 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL In-Reply-To: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> References: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: Is the pig eatin's person? On 4/16/06, A.S. Zanoni wrote: > > Had hoped that he'd be able to post this weekend. Alas, it is not the > case. > > Same applies to weblog. Mean to add a comment there presently. Please > do not email Steve until it is posted that his computer has resumed > operation. Look here and on LiveJournal, please, in about a week. > > He'll still have a heap of list messages to sort through. :> > > Thanks. > > > And please do not email me directly next week, seeking Steve; I will be > afk until 25-April. Steve is wrapping up Brokedown Palace page proofs... > > --- > A.S. Zanoni > Personal Assistant to Steven Brust > > Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: > http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica > From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Apr 18 12:18:38 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:18:38 -0400 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL In-Reply-To: <44423061.7090909@the-bat.net> References: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> <44423061.7090909@the-bat.net> Message-ID: <44453B8E.2070508@email.ers.usda.gov> Casey Rousseau wrote: > > _His Majesty's Dragon_ is the first of a series by Naomi Novik. > Napoleonic era British Navy Captain becomes an aviator in the Dragon > Corps. Not quite as detailed in it's descriptions of the period as > Patrick O'Brian, but better than say C. S. Forrester. An odd comment, considering that Forrester is superior to O'Brian in everything but dialog. . . . Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Apr 18 12:20:17 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:20:17 -0400 Subject: Third Floor Relic vs the Special Tasks Group? In-Reply-To: <20060415230200.MCDY19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> References: <20060415230200.MCDY19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> Message-ID: <44453BF1.30806@email.ers.usda.gov> Mark Tiller wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] >On Behalf Of Ken Koester >Sent: 14 April 2006 17:34 > >? The only SAS I am aware of is entirely British, and entirely >military. The CIA has no paramilitaries of its own. > >Australia and New Zealand also have their own SAS. Not as well funded as >the British, but VERY good. The Australians are supposed to be rated >slightly better than the British at jungle warfare, but at that level, the >difference wouldn't matter. > > > Just so. I had either forgotten them or unconsciously lumped them in with the British. Still, they are British-descended at least. Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Tue Apr 18 12:24:43 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:24:43 -0600 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL In-Reply-To: <44453B8E.2070508@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <4441F038.7010805@dreamcafe.com> <44423061.7090909@the-bat.net> <44453B8E.2070508@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <44453CFB.1030004@brazee.net> Ken Koester wrote: >Casey Rousseau wrote: > >> >> _His Majesty's Dragon_ is the first of a series by Naomi Novik. >> Napoleonic era British Navy Captain becomes an aviator in the Dragon >> Corps. Not quite as detailed in it's descriptions of the period as >> Patrick O'Brian, but better than say C. S. Forrester. > > >An odd comment, considering that Forrester is superior to O'Brian in >everything but dialog. . . . > > > It appears that "better" in this context means "more detailed descriptions", which I take to mean technical descriptions. From casey at the-bat.net Tue Apr 18 12:58:00 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:58:00 -0400 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL In-Reply-To: <44453B8E.2070508@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <004301c66322$65a07410$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> I wrote: > _His Majesty's Dragon_ is the first of a series by Naomi Novik. > Napoleonic era British Navy Captain becomes an aviator in the Dragon > Corps. Not quite as detailed in its descriptions of the period as > Patrick O'Brian, but better than say C. S. Forrester. Snarkhunter (kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov) opined: > An odd comment, considering that Forrester is superior to O'Brian in > everything but dialog. . . . ... To which Howard Brazee (howard at brazee.net) replied: > It appears that "better" in this context means "more detailed > descriptions", which I take to mean technical descriptions. I was, perhaps, a bit sloppy in my comparisons. I thoroughly enjoyed the entire Hornblower saga, but they are light, romantic, and have a tendency toward the episodic. In contrast, my recollection of O'Brian is of a much richer and detailed world populated by real human beings with real joys, sorrows, victories and failings. I admit, I was also leaning fairly heavily on the knowledge that Steve has several times listed O'Brian as one of his favorite authors. :) Casey From howard at brazee.net Tue Apr 18 13:19:53 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:19:53 -0600 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL Message-ID: <444549E9.5050700@brazee.net> On 1:58 PM Casey Rousseau wrote: > I was, perhaps, a bit sloppy in my comparisons. I thoroughly enjoyed > the entire Hornblower saga, but they are light, romantic, and have a > tendency toward the episodic. > > In contrast, my recollection of O'Brian is of a much richer and > detailed world populated by real human beings with real joys, sorrows, > victories and failings. > > I admit, I was also leaning fairly heavily on the knowledge that Steve > has several times listed O'Brian as one of his favorite authors Steve seems to have a lot of favorites. He seems to like a good story - but moreso, he also appears to have an ear for language. In the SF arena, an author whose work I don't much care for has a series that seems O'Brian-like that I love. David Drake's RCN series of books is quite enjoyable: WITH THE LIGHTNINGS /RCN Series/ (Baen/1998) LT LEARY, COMMANDING /RCN Series/ (Baen/2000) THE FAR SIDE OF THE STARS /RCN Series/ (Baen/2003) THE WAY TO GLORY /RCN Series /(Baen/2005) & not yet available: SOME GOLDEN HARBOR /RCN Series /(Baen/2006) He doesn't go into the same detail for his spaceships that we enjoy with sailing ships that we expect to be accurate. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Wed Apr 19 08:27:14 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:27:14 -0400 Subject: Steven Brust's email still AWOL In-Reply-To: <004301c66322$65a07410$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <004301c66322$65a07410$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <444656D2.4060807@email.ers.usda.gov> Casey Rousseau wrote: > >... To which Howard Brazee (howard at brazee.net) replied: > > >>It appears that "better" in this context means "more detailed >>descriptions", which I take to mean technical descriptions. >> >> > > > To which I would take exception again. I can follow the working of a ship in Forrester, but I've never been able to in O'Brian. >I was, perhaps, a bit sloppy in my comparisons. I thoroughly enjoyed >the entire Hornblower saga, but they are light, romantic, and have a >tendency toward the episodic. > >In contrast, my recollection of O'Brian is of a much richer and >detailed world populated by real human beings with real joys, sorrows, >victories and failings. > > > But a world in which I find the characters totally implausible and in which the joys, sorrow, victories & failings bore me the 3 times I've tried to enter it. Hornblower, in contrast, is heavily modelled on the real life exploits of Pellew & Cochrane. >I admit, I was also leaning fairly heavily on the knowledge that Steve >has several times listed O'Brian as one of his favorite authors. :) > > > Chacun a son chat ;-) Snarkhunter From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Apr 20 07:28:29 2006 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: <444656D2.4060807@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20060420142829.47420.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I fear that I have to agree that O'Brian's work is much more realistic. I can hope, in vain, of course, considering the caliber of this list, that my weight as a woman who despises war stories, movies and other such icky-ness related to the riddling of bodies with bullet-holes in mass carnage... might be taken into account. I did not find O'Brian's work at all boring. In fact, I found his work stimulating; and it gave me an insight on why men might want to engage in such a terribly messy business. I do think O'Brians work technically beyond very much reproach and, as a story-teller, I could not fault him for a gripping tale that envelopes both the practical and emotional facets of man. Now, for those accustomed to what is currently being put out as movies (by currently, I mean Bruce Willis in "Die Hard" or Sylvester Stallone in the many "Rocky" movies), I can understand why it would seem very boring. It does not have the dramatic and gripping "action" of current or modern films. Nor does the action that does take place such that grips one....rather, it is a morre methodical and thought out process. More of the battle plan one might put out on a chess board rather that the placement of such peices one might find on the battlefield. Now, having read the histories of such real-life explorers and commandants as Cochrane and Pellew (not to mention others, who gave far more), I fear that such biographies ARE boring and detailed, down to the last cup of flour, and I recommend them only as bedtime fodder. To have a ficticional account of a ficticional character compared to a ficticional acount of historical characters I find measly at best. At worst, I can only say that the historical characters led much less interesting lives. If I wanted to embroil myself in the mundane and the historical, rather than the fantastic, I would not be reading fiction. Peace, Caliann Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe Ken Koester wrote: Casey Rousseau wrote: > >... To which Howard Brazee (howard at brazee.net) replied: > > >>It appears that "better" in this context means "more detailed >>descriptions", which I take to mean technical descriptions. >> >> > > > To which I would take exception again. I can follow the working of a ship in Forrester, but I've never been able to in O'Brian. >I was, perhaps, a bit sloppy in my comparisons. I thoroughly enjoyed >the entire Hornblower saga, but they are light, romantic, and have a >tendency toward the episodic. > >In contrast, my recollection of O'Brian is of a much richer and >detailed world populated by real human beings with real joys, sorrows, >victories and failings. > > > But a world in which I find the characters totally implausible and in which the joys, sorrow, victories & failings bore me the 3 times I've tried to enter it. Hornblower, in contrast, is heavily modelled on the real life exploits of Pellew & Cochrane. >I admit, I was also leaning fairly heavily on the knowledge that Steve >has several times listed O'Brian as one of his favorite authors. :) > > > Chacun a son chat ;-) Snarkhunter "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help slow climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day From carpovita at earthlink.net Fri Apr 21 09:02:39 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:02:39 -0600 Subject: FW: Dragaera questions Message-ID: <00b501c6655d$04300e60$0d00a8c0@Carpovita> Steve's e-mail is down, and this list is sort of his posse so.... -----Original Message----- From: chazkemp at comcast.net [mailto:chazkemp at comcast.net] To: Rion Bergquist Subject: Dragaera questions Can you pass these along to the appropriate peeps? (Mainly Steven Brust and his posse.) These are not immediately important yet, but as I get to these houses to draw the animals, banners, etc. I'll need the info. Thanks. :) 1. Do the Iorich have wings? There's a passage in one of the books that describe something that is as soft as an Iorich's wing. But in his Crossroads adventure book, he doesn't mention them as having wings. 2. What sort of dog would he describe the Lyorn as? Are they like golden retreivers or some other breed? If the breed is left up to me, then that's cool too. :) 3. Can I draw the dzur as a black tiger with white stripes or can you even see the stripes of a dzur? 4. What are the house colors of the Iorich, Hawk, Creotha & Vallista? 5. Are Vallista more like frogs or beavers? Maybe otters? That's all I have for now. Like I said - no hurry. I'll start out drawing teh other houses first & get to these last. :) -- Chaz "Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, others just gurgle." From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Apr 21 10:01:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:01:53 -0700 Subject: FW: Dragaera questions In-Reply-To: <00b501c6655d$04300e60$0d00a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: "Rion Bergquist" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/21/06 09:02 AM To cc chazkemp at comcast.net Subject FW: Dragaera questions >Steve's e-mail is down, and this list is sort of his posse so.... > > >-----Original Message----- >From: chazkemp at comcast.net [mailto:chazkemp at comcast.net] >To: Rion Bergquist >Subject: Dragaera questions > > >Can you pass these along to the appropriate peeps? (Mainly Steven Brust and >his posse.) > >These are not immediately important yet, but as I get to these houses to >draw the animals, banners, etc. I'll need the info. Thanks. :) Having been interested to the answers of all of these questions for quite some time, I'm pretty sure there's only one way to get the answers, and it's to ask Steve directly, since he is not on the record as having answered any of them, to date. (That I can determine, anyway). While I cannot claim to be an authority on any of these (there's really only one man who is, and his email is down) I have compiled links to the wikicity that have been pretty thoroughly pounded out all the facts we know for sure that are applicable to each topic. Warning: Some of these links are speculative, as the definitive answers have not been forthcoming previously from SKZB. (I am unsure if this will change in the interest of making the artwork, but I am hopeful that we may (finally) be able to nail down all the house colors, and learn a bit more about some of the animals if he considers it worth doing.) >1. Do the Iorich have wings? There's a passage in one of the books that >describe something that is as soft as an Iorich's wing. But in his >Crossroads adventure book, he doesn't mention them as having wings. http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Iorich_%28animal%29 >2. What sort of dog would he describe the Lyorn as? Are they like golden >retreivers or some other breed? If the breed is left up to me, then that's >cool too. :) http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Lyorn_%28animal%29 >3. Can I draw the dzur as a black tiger with white stripes or can you even >see the stripes of a dzur? http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Dzur_%28animal%29 http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/dzur96.jpg.html >4. What are the house colors of the Iorich, Hawk, Creotha & Vallista? http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/House_Colors http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Speculation:House_Colors >5. Are Vallista more like frogs or beavers? Maybe otters? http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Vallista_%28animal%29 I hope these links are in some way helpful. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 16:21:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:21:43 -0700 Subject: FW: Dragaera questions In-Reply-To: References: <00b501c6655d$04300e60$0d00a8c0@Carpovita> Message-ID: On 4/21/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Rion Bergquist" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 04/21/06 09:02 AM > > >Steve's e-mail is down, and this list is sort of his posse so.... > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: chazkemp at comcast.net > >To: Rion Bergquist > >Subject: Dragaera questions > > > > > > >1. Do the Iorich have wings? There's a passage in one of the books that > >describe something that is as soft as an Iorich's wing. But in his > >Crossroads adventure book, he doesn't mention them as having wings. > > http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Iorich_%28animal%29 I've always suspected that "Soft as an iorich's wing" was a typo for "Soft as an issola's wing". There's a precedent for this sort of confusion: http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/misc-cracks.html#Prison > >2. What sort of dog would he describe the Lyorn as? Are they like > >golden retreivers or some other breed? If the breed is left up to me, then > >that's cool too. :) > > http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Lyorn_%28animal%29 While the fur is probably golden-retreiver-colored, I suspect that the body of the lyorn is that of a fiercer animal. Sort of how Kathy Grantham's orca looks way meaner and nastier than an ordinary Earth-orca. Making it look just like a golden retreiver would be a mistake, I think. > >3. Can I draw the dzur as a black tiger with white stripes or can you > >even see the stripes of a dzur? > > http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Dzur_%28animal%29 > http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/kathyg/dzur96.jpg.html While the dzur is probably all black, I once had a black cat who had very dark gray fur, with darker black striping visible if examined closely. I think that might be Cool as well. From pkeck at paulkeck.com Sun Apr 23 20:10:35 2006 From: pkeck at paulkeck.com (pkeck) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:10:35 -0700 Subject: FW: Dragaera questions Message-ID: <20060424031035.GA10327@paulkeck.com> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 10:02:39AM -0600, Rion Bergquist wrote: > 5. Are Vallista more like frogs or beavers? Maybe otters? I always assumed that since they are amphibious animals, and the human Vallista are builders, that they were something like beavers. Lord Carver, after all, is a Vallista architect. Maybe Steve will write soon about Lord Bark-Biter and Lady Flattail? -- Paul Keck pkeck at uga.edu http://www.arches.uga.edu/~pkeck University of Georgia http://www.uga.edu/ucns/telecom EITS Network Engineering mailto:pkeck at ediacara.org --Opinions mine.-- Go fighting anomalocaridids!!! From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Apr 26 15:01:15 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad "bred" to carry out a specific assassination? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060426220115.37778.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Scott Schultz" asked: > The question now is, "Who is the target of _The Final Contract_?" --- Louis Eastman wrote: > I stubbornly hope it is Verra, smarmy bitch that she is. I hope not. I still think it likely that she is Vlad's mother. -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed Apr 26 15:03:20 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New on Cracks and Shards Message-ID: <20060426220320.4878.qmail@web31013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://www.cracksandshards.com/newCS.html April 2006: * Who's on First? * A note from Steve on bagels and lox * different axioms * Steve checks in on Morrolan's name and the categorization of The Viscount of Adrilankha * Updated the list of Other Web sites -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chica at dreamcafe.com Wed Apr 26 20:06:30 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:06:30 -0700 Subject: AWOL and other points In-Reply-To: <20060418170008.3CEC6E9456@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060418170008.3CEC6E9456@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <44503536.8080008@dreamcafe.com> And in case you're wondering - unfortunately, the computer problem is still being resolved. :/ > Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 07:54:09 -0400 > From: Casey Rousseau > Subject: Re: Steven Brust's email still AWOL > > Well, if he needs a breather after he's done with that, I've just > finished a good read that I expect might do well as entertainment. In > any case, I feel confident that it will find a few fans here generally. Thank you. He's rereading Nero Wolfe at present. > Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 06:46:21 -0400 > From: "Louis Eastman" > Subject: Re: Steven Brust's email still AWOL > > Is the pig eatin's person? Depends on how many personal assistants you figure Steve has, really. I try not to ask questions like that. Just causes unrest. Unrest and foreign Brust translations... =goes off to shelve such things= *--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Apr 27 10:28:31 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:28:31 -0700 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: <20060420142829.47420.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060420142829.47420.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4450FF3F.3030300@dreamcafe.com> For the record, I've read Forrester stuff twice, and the O'Brian stuff probably ten times. I intend to read O'Brian again. But there is another side. I was once raving about O'Brian to a fellow who said, "O'Brian is more realistic and better with language, but Forrestor tells a better story." The fellow who said that was Gene Wolfe. Could have knocked me on my ass with a feather. Cheers, Steve P.S.: I think my email is back, at least for now. Fingers crossed. Caliann the Elf wrote: >I fear that I have to agree that O'Brian's work is much more realistic. > > I can hope, in vain, of course, considering the caliber of this list, that my weight as a woman who despises war stories, movies and other such icky-ness related to the riddling of bodies with bullet-holes in mass carnage... might be taken into account. > > I did not find O'Brian's work at all boring. In fact, I found his work stimulating; and it gave me an insight on why men might want to engage in such a terribly messy business. > > I do think O'Brians work technically beyond very much reproach and, as a story-teller, I could not fault him for a gripping tale that envelopes both the practical and emotional facets of man. > > Now, for those accustomed to what is currently being put out as movies (by currently, I mean Bruce Willis in "Die Hard" or Sylvester Stallone in the many "Rocky" movies), I can understand why it would seem very boring. It does not have the dramatic and gripping "action" of current or modern films. Nor does the action that does take place such that grips one....rather, it is a morre methodical and thought out process. More of the battle plan one might put out on a chess board rather that the placement of such peices one might find on the battlefield. > > Now, having read the histories of such real-life explorers and commandants as Cochrane and Pellew (not to mention others, who gave far more), I fear that such biographies ARE boring and detailed, down to the last cup of flour, and I recommend them only as bedtime fodder. > > To have a ficticional account of a ficticional character compared to a ficticional acount of historical characters I find measly at best. > > At worst, I can only say that the historical characters led much less interesting lives. If I wanted to embroil myself in the mundane and the historical, rather than the fantastic, I would not be reading fiction. > > Peace, > Caliann > > Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe > > > >Ken Koester wrote: > Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > >>... To which Howard Brazee (howard at brazee.net) replied: >> >> >> >> >>>It appears that "better" in this context means "more detailed >>>descriptions", which I take to mean technical descriptions. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >To which I would take exception again. I can follow the working of a >ship in Forrester, but I've never been able to in O'Brian. > > > >>I was, perhaps, a bit sloppy in my comparisons. I thoroughly enjoyed >>the entire Hornblower saga, but they are light, romantic, and have a >>tendency toward the episodic. >> >>In contrast, my recollection of O'Brian is of a much richer and >>detailed world populated by real human beings with real joys, sorrows, >>victories and failings. >> >> >> >> >> >But a world in which I find the characters totally implausible and in >which the joys, sorrow, victories & failings bore me the 3 times I've >tried to enter it. Hornblower, in contrast, is heavily modelled on the >real life exploits of Pellew & Cochrane. > > > >>I admit, I was also leaning fairly heavily on the knowledge that Steve >>has several times listed O'Brian as one of his favorite authors. :) >> >> >> >> >> >Chacun a son chat ;-) > >Snarkhunter > > > > >"Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help slow climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day > > From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Apr 27 11:56:46 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:56:46 -0400 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: <4450FF3F.3030300@dreamcafe.com> References: <20060420142829.47420.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4450FF3F.3030300@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <445113EE.6000800@email.ers.usda.gov> skzb wrote: > For the record, I've read Forrester stuff twice, and the O'Brian stuff > probably ten times. I intend to read O'Brian again. > > But there is another side. I was once raving about O'Brian to a > fellow who said, "O'Brian is more realistic and better with language, > but Forrestor tells a better story." The fellow who said that was > Gene Wolfe. Could have knocked me on my ass with a feather. > I've heard that people who like Dr. Who tend to think whoever was playing the good Doctor when they first saw the program was the best of all the doctors. I suspect something analogous happens with Forester/O'Brian: whichever you read first, you tend to prefer. Realism, of course, is a loaded die; as a sailor, I can follow Forrester's description of working a ship much more readily than I can O'Brian. But O'Brian's characterizations might be thought more *plausible*, which is realism under another cover. (And then there is Maturin, who is fine as a ship's doctor, but what idiot in the Admiralty would ever think that you could get much use out of a spy in such a position? I can't swallow any of that, realistically. OTOH, Hornblower is admittedly a century ahead of his time in the way he thinks. I'm sure that irritates the hell out of some folk.) > > Steve > > P.S.: I think my email is back, at least for now. Fingers crossed. On both hands, no less! Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Apr 27 12:34:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:34:48 -0700 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: <445113EE.6000800@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 04/27/06 11:56 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: The criticism of O'Brian >I've heard that people who like Dr. Who tend to think whoever was >playing the good Doctor when they first saw the program was the best of >all the doctors. I suspect something analogous happens with I've heard this too, but find it's not true. I started with the 3rd doctor, but I find it's obvious that the 4th Doctor was clearly the best of all of them. I think it's the scarf that does it. Majikjon From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Apr 27 14:18:32 2006 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:18:32 -0400 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: References: <445113EE.6000800@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <4450FCE8.21167.19AFCD4@localhost> On 27 Apr 2006 at 12:34, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote > > > >I've heard that people who like Dr. Who tend to think whoever was > >playing the good Doctor when they first saw the program was the best > >of all the doctors. I suspect something analogous happens with > > I've heard this too, but find it's not true. > > I started with the 3rd doctor, but I find it's obvious that the 4th > Doctor was clearly the best of all of them. > > I think it's the scarf that does it. > > Majikjon > That's only because the fourth Dr IS the best. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Apr 28 11:35:11 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:35:11 -0400 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: <20060428170021.A9A26E9409@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060428170021.A9A26E9409@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: "O'Brian is more realistic and better with language, but Forrestor tells a better story." This is interesting, and though I've never read Forrestor, it does make a bit of sense to me. The way I imagine Forrestor to be is a much more of a canned plot (point a to point b, huzzah huzzah). Why I love O'Brian, is that the characters drive the plot far more than they probably have any right too. I never really know where the story is going to end up. (And most of the time, the story never wraps up at the end of one novel anyway.) I think this reminds me of some other author... I wish I could remember who... "what idiot in the Admiralty would ever think that you could get much use out of a spy in such a position" This is interesting too, because although there are large periods where Maturin is 'at-sea', he also finds himself in enough places/times to 'thwart the enemy' that it is worth gaps. Matt Guil: What a shambles! We're just not getting anywhere. Ros: Not even England. I don't believe in it anyway. Guil: What? Ros: England. Guil: Just a conspiracy of cartographers, you mean? ~~~Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, Tom Stoppard From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Apr 28 12:08:27 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:08:27 -0400 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: References: <20060428170021.A9A26E9409@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <4452682B.1000407@email.ers.usda.gov> Matthew Jennings wrote: >"what idiot in the Admiralty would ever think that you could get much >use out of a spy in such a position" > >This is interesting too, because although there are large periods where >Maturin is 'at-sea', he also finds himself in enough places/times >to 'thwart the enemy' that it is worth gaps. > > Except that Britain didn't use agents in this manner at this time--this is a 20th century device. The Admiralty gathered intelligence, all right, but that's what it was: intelligence. Given that some ships would not touch land for *years* at a time (resupplied at sea while on blockade duty), and frigates would routinely be out of sight for 6 months or more, a ship's doctor makes for a pretty implausible spy--in the realistic sense. (Not to mention that any counteragent would be bound to wonder how it was that a ship's doctor could ever stray so far from his post.) Agents of this type would be run by Canning & Co., and they would stay on land. I'm afraid I'd have to see an actual historical case before I could swallow this. Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Apr 28 12:14:15 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:14:15 -0400 Subject: AWOL and other points In-Reply-To: <44503536.8080008@dreamcafe.com> References: <20060418170008.3CEC6E9456@gw.dd-b.net> <44503536.8080008@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <44526987.5080604@email.ers.usda.gov> A.S. Zanoni wrote: > > Thank you. He's rereading Nero Wolfe at present. > O fortunate man! Stout had enough talent for 10 authors; I never tire of Wolfe, Archie, & Saul. I'm just waiting until the familiarity level drops a little more before plunging in again and while I wait, I'm passing the time with Tey, Marsh, and Allingham. I'm nearly ready to re-open the Richard III debate ;-) Snarkhunter From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Apr 28 16:13:18 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:13:18 -0400 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian Message-ID: "Except that Britain didn't use agents in this manner at this time-- this is a 20th century device. The Admiralty gathered intelligence, all right, but that's what it was: intelligence. .... I'm afraid I'd have to see an actual historical case before I could swallow this." Hunh, you clearly have a very different impression of what Maturin was tasked to do. Here are the ones I can find quickly on wikipedia: propaganda in the Mauritius, oppose agents while in Boston (lucky coincidence, of course), "sent on a mission to the Baltic to persuade the Catalan garrison of the fortress at Grimsholm to defect", political duel for influence at the Sultan's court, south american mission to gain influence with cash & prizes* Then there is whole aspect of Maturin only accepting missions he wants to, being a free agent against Bonaparte, being a well-known and respected naturalist (wanders widely from the ship), all-in-all, he's just not a full-time spy, and I don't see that he could be taken as being part of the normal 'intelligence' apparatus. He's really just being a troublesome pest. I guess part of the problem you have is that these missions are too complex for the Admiralty? In which case, I'm content to give the benefit of the doubt (as in, how are we 'really sure' they didn't). (Even if we are really sure, we're talking about a series that admittedly extends a historical year to a sequence of events taking much longer. So absolute historical accuracy is already out the window.) So, I guess all I'm saying, is it seems a harsh criticism, though of course different things work for different people. I have a hard time accepting Matt Damon as a spy/assassin myself. *okay, not prizes really From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 21:49:32 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 21:49:32 -0700 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian References: Message-ID: > I have a hard time accepting Matt Damon as a spy/assassin myself. > If you look carefully, they had to chop up the fight scenes in the Bourne movies, I assume because Matt Damon couldn't pull them off in one shot. *sneer* jeff From tsarren at alyra.org Sun Apr 30 00:51:34 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 02:51:34 -0500 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060430075134.GA6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 09:49:32PM -0700, Jeff wrote: > > If you look carefully, they had to chop up the fight scenes in the Bourne > movies, I assume because Matt Damon couldn't pull them off in one shot. > *sneer* So *that's* why they're so choppy. It's really a shame, it's that way today no matter who the actors are, with few exceptions. The only one that comes to mind is the final confrontation between the main characters in Grosse Point Blank. Not only barely cut (if at all; s'been awhile since I've watched it), but *realistic*... there are actual feints and such. I'm sure there are others. Kat From grey at maskwood.com Sun Apr 30 07:03:06 2006 From: grey at maskwood.com (Grey Walker) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 07:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: fight scenes -- cut or not? Message-ID: <20060430140306.86100.qmail@web313.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > So *that's* why they're so choppy. It's really a > > shame, it's that way today no > > matter who the actors are, with few exceptions. > The > > only one that comes to > > mind is the final confrontation between the main > > characters in Grosse Point > > Blank. Not only barely cut (if at all; s'been > > awhile since I've watched > > it), but *realistic*... there are actual feints > and > > such. I'm sure there > > are others. Yes, I noticed that about the Grosse Point blank scene, too. It's one reason why I like that movie so much. I remember watching a scene long ago, from a Mad Max movie. A truck runs over the main character's arm, and you can actually hear the bones snapping. That scene squeamed me more than any of the elaborate fight scenes in, say, Predator. Grey From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com Mon May 1 04:58:51 2006 From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE)) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 05:58:51 -0600 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian Message-ID: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AB2E12B@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> The Bourne Supremacy DVD has a pretty good piece on the Kitchen/House fight scene. Didn't appear to be terribly segmented. Ciao, Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Tsarren > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:52 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: The criticism of O'Brian > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 09:49:32PM -0700, Jeff wrote: > > > > If you look carefully, they had to chop up the fight scenes in the > > Bourne movies, I assume because Matt Damon couldn't pull > them off in one shot. > > *sneer* > > So *that's* why they're so choppy. It's really a shame, it's > that way today no matter who the actors are, with few > exceptions. The only one that comes to mind is the final > confrontation between the main characters in Grosse Point > Blank. Not only barely cut (if at all; s'been awhile since > I've watched it), but *realistic*... there are actual feints > and such. I'm sure there are others. > > Kat > ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon May 1 07:37:23 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 07:37:23 -0700 Subject: The criticism of O'Brian References: <9C70A9D26F958E49B214F42B18F9192AB2E12B@cossmgmbx02.EMAIL.CORP.TLD> Message-ID: The Bourne Supremacy DVD has a pretty good piece on the Kitchen/House fight scene. Didn't appear to be terribly segmented. Ciao, Andrew No, Supremacy did not seem to be as "cut and pasted". Still, the expression on Matt Damons face made me think he was in a 3rd grade slap fight. jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Tsarren > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:52 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: The criticism of O'Brian > > On Fri, Apr 28, 2006 at 09:49:32PM -0700, Jeff wrote: > > > > If you look carefully, they had to chop up the fight scenes in the > > Bourne movies, I assume because Matt Damon couldn't pull > them off in one shot. > > *sneer* > > So *that's* why they're so choppy. It's really a shame, it's > that way today no matter who the actors are, with few > exceptions. The only one that comes to mind is the final > confrontation between the main characters in Grosse Point > Blank. Not only barely cut (if at all; s'been awhile since > I've watched it), but *realistic*... there are actual feints > and such. I'm sure there are others. > > Kat > ****************************************** The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. ****************************************** From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 10:03:49 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 10:03:49 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <4450FCE8.21167.19AFCD4@localhost> Message-ID: I'm sure everybody here is familiar with the sword jokes Vlad sometimes cites; examples being: How many Easterners does it take to sharpen a sword? -Four, one to hold the sword, and three to move the grindstone. How many Yendi does it take to sharpen a sword? -Three. One to sharpen it, and one to confuse the issue. How many Dzur does it take to sharpen a sword? -Three. One to sharpen it, and three to make it worthwhile. I've been trying to come up with sword jokes to fit each of the major houses. So far I've only got a couple that I'm really happy with (most of my attempts end up being rather lame): How many Athyra does it take to Sharpen a sword? -Three. One to conjure the sword, a second to enchant the grindstone to spin, and a third to animate the corpse to hold it. How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? -Seventeen. Sixteen to cut their own hands off, and one to hold it properly. How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? -Just one, but only when it's appropriate. How many Tiassa does it take to sharpen a sword? -None. He'll come up with a way to have the Dzur do it. How many Phoenix does it take to sharpen a sword? -All of her. Okay, so even these aren't that great. I was wondering if anyone else had any they'd like to share? Majikjon From shawnb at stanford.edu Tue May 2 10:33:14 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 10:33:14 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060502173341.C8DD7E94E4@gw.dd-b.net> I really like the Tiassa one. > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:04 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Sword Jokes. > > I'm sure everybody here is familiar with the sword jokes Vlad > sometimes cites; examples being: > > > How many Easterners does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Four, one to hold the sword, and three to move the grindstone. > > How many Yendi does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Three. One to sharpen it, and one to confuse the issue. > > How many Dzur does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Three. One to sharpen it, and three to make it worthwhile. > > I've been trying to come up with sword jokes to fit each of the major > houses. > > So far I've only got a couple that I'm really happy with (most of my > attempts end up being rather lame): > > How many Athyra does it take to Sharpen a sword? > > -Three. One to conjure the sword, a second to enchant the > grindstone to > spin, and a third to animate the corpse to hold it. > > How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Seventeen. Sixteen to cut their own hands off, and one to hold it > properly. > > How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Just one, but only when it's appropriate. > > How many Tiassa does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -None. He'll come up with a way to have the Dzur do it. > > How many Phoenix does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -All of her. > > Okay, so even these aren't that great. I was wondering if > anyone else had > any they'd like to share? > > Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 2 10:57:28 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 10:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I'm sure everybody here is familiar with the sword jokes Vlad sometimes > cites; examples being: > > How many Athyra does it take to Sharpen a sword? Maybe something like "The integral over the surface given by boundary conditions E of flux F with respect to point O times the following Green's function ... divided by max(integral of skill*power over the set of Athyra)" ... Or maybe, "Pre-, peri-, or post-interregnum?" From mneme at io.com Tue May 2 11:20:40 2006 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:20:40 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4450FCE8.21167.19AFCD4@localhost> Message-ID: <17495.41720.550945.557509@fnord.io.com> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: >How many Dzur does it take to sharpen a sword? > >-Three. One to sharpen it, and three to make it worthwhile. Should be "Four" unless you're trying to imply that Dzur can't count...which is rather unwise, and -usually- not true. >How many Athyra does it take to Sharpen a sword? > >-Three. One to conjure the sword, a second to enchant the grindstone to >spin, and a third to animate the corpse to hold it. None. Athyra worth knowing don't need swords. Yeah, yeah, I know, Aerich. >How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? Trick question. None; Tekla, with a sword? Very funny. >How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? One, but it takes him at least a day to find an appropriate time and place. >How many Tiassa does it take to sharpen a sword? One or three, depending on how often they get distracted by the shiny metal. How many Orca does it take to sharpen a sword? Two. One to loan you the whetstone, the other to turn it. How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? Depends on whether it's the Left hand or the right hand. The left hand of the Jhereg doesn't use (or sharpen) swords. For the right hand, it's three -- one to sharpen the sword, one to pick your pockets, and one to make you feel good about the process. How many Dragonlords does it take to sharpen a sword? One. Was there supposed to be a joke there? How many Hawklords does it take to sharpen a sword? The square root of five. On average, it takes one to sharpen the sword, one to prepare the grindstone, one to prepare the sword, one to clean the area afterward, and one to perform this calculation. However, since Hawlklords are quite capable, each can perform a number of these tasks, so 5^1/2 is very close to correct. How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? Five. Three to do the necessary research, one to sharpen the sword, and one to document the entire process. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Did you know, if you increment enough, you /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ get an extra digit?" "I knew," weeps Six. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ "We knew. But we had forgotten." '---''(_/--' (_/-' From howard at brazee.net Tue May 2 11:32:15 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 12:32:15 -0600 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4457A5AF.3030602@brazee.net> I thought I could google "How many capitalists does it take to screw in a light bulb" to get an Orca, but none of the matches worked. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 11:35:18 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:35:18 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4450FCE8.21167.19AFCD4@localhost> Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Dzur does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Three. One to sharpen it, and three to make it worthwhile. > Ahem. That's four, as any arithmetist will tell you. How many Hawks does it take to sharpen a sword? -None. Hawks are already so sharp they cut themselves. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue May 2 11:31:37 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:31:37 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? One to analyze the sword and determine the precise amount of sharpness required. One to design the grindstone. One to revise the design. Two to build the grindstone and improve upon the revised design. Three to layout the smithy. Six to organize the laborers and lay the foundation. Twelve to add the flying buttresses. Twenty-four to debate the merits of the Extravagant school versus the Functional school. Forty-Eight to design a compromise in which each school interferes with the other equally. Ninety-Six to oversee construction of the forge, moat, guard towers, market square, shoeing stable, and statue honoring Hanrihan patron god of smiths. One-Hundred and Ninety-Two to design and build the roads and bridges required to transport the building materials to the job site. Three-Hundred and Eighty-Four to... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 11:47:39 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:47:39 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I realized that in addition to being unfunny, I can't count, either. Majikjon How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? -Hundreds. The Lyron, and his father, and his father's father, and his father's father's father, and his father's father's father's father, and his... "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 11:35 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Dzur does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Three. One to sharpen it, and three to make it worthwhile. > Ahem. That's four, as any arithmetist will tell you. How many Hawks does it take to sharpen a sword? -None. Hawks are already so sharp they cut themselves. From shawnb at stanford.edu Tue May 2 11:49:41 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:49:41 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Scott Schultz > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:32 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Sword Jokes. > > > How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? > > One to analyze the sword and determine the precise amount of > sharpness required. One to design the grindstone. One to > revise the design. Two to build the grindstone and improve > upon the revised design. Three to layout the smithy. Six to > organize the laborers and lay the foundation. Twelve to add > the flying buttresses. Twenty-four to debate the merits of > the Extravagant school versus the Functional school. > Forty-Eight to design a compromise in which each school > interferes with the other equally. > Ninety-Six to oversee construction of the forge, moat, guard > towers, market square, shoeing stable, and statue honoring > Hanrihan patron god of smiths. > One-Hundred and Ninety-Two to design and build the roads and > bridges required to transport the building materials to the > job site. Three-Hundred and Eighty-Four to... > > > The Vallista joke is the perfect place to insert the Engineer Joke Steve alludes to: How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? Assume a spherical sword... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 11:53:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:53:58 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <4457A5AF.3030602@brazee.net> Message-ID: How many Orca does it take to sharpen a sword? Why would you want to sharpen *that* old thing, when for just six Imperials we can have you with a brand new double-edged broadsword with enamelled hilt and jeweled trim scabard? Majikjon How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? Just one. And while the sword won't actually get any sharper, you'll feel much better about the whole situation when he's done explaining everything to you. Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 11:32 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Sword Jokes. I thought I could google "How many capitalists does it take to screw in a light bulb" to get an Orca, but none of the matches worked. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 11:55:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:55:36 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Four. One to do the metallurgy, one to analyze grindstone materials, one to design a grindstone with the optimal geometry. Oh, and one to actually *sharpen* the sword. -or- -One, but he won't really sharpen the sword - he'll forge a new sword that looks just like it, only sharp. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 2 11:59:32 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > -One, but he won't really sharpen the sword - he'll forge a new sword > that looks just like it, only sharp. Phoenix: One - "Here's a sharp sword stuck in a rock." From pulmon at mac.com Tue May 2 12:05:18 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:05:18 -0400 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On May 2, 2006, at 2:55 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 5/2/06, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >> How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? >> > > -Four. One to do the metallurgy, one to analyze grindstone materials, > one to design a grindstone with the optimal geometry. Oh, and one to > actually *sharpen* the sword. > > -or- > > -One, but he won't really sharpen the sword - he'll forge a new sword > that looks just like it, only sharp. How many writers does it take to sharpen a sword? None. The Pen is mightier.... From Douglas.Lang at ed.gov Tue May 2 12:10:54 2006 From: Douglas.Lang at ed.gov (Lang, Douglas (Contractor)) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:10:54 -0400 Subject: Sword Jokes. Message-ID: >How many writers does it take to sharpen a sword? >None. The Pen is mightier.... Q: How many Gods does it take to sharpen a sword? A: All of them. One to hold the sword, the rest to turn the Great Cycle... Corollary: Q: How many Gods does it take to sharpen a Vlad? A: Just Verra... -dpl From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 12:15:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:15:07 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many Chreotha does it take to sharpen a sword? -Two. One to sharpen the sword, and one to... HA! Gotcha! How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? -None. A dull sword hurts more. How many Dragons does it take to sharpen a sword? -Why should he bother? He'll just kill you with his bare hands. Majikjon "Lang, Douglas (Contractor)" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 12:10 PM To "Kenneth Gorelick" , "Davdi Silverrock" cc Dragaera List Subject RE: Sword Jokes. >How many writers does it take to sharpen a sword? >None. The Pen is mightier.... Q: How many Gods does it take to sharpen a sword? A: All of them. One to hold the sword, the rest to turn the Great Cycle... Corollary: Q: How many Gods does it take to sharpen a Vlad? A: Just Verra... -dpl From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 2 12:17:58 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > How many Dragons does it take to sharpen a sword? > > -Why should he bother? He'll just kill you with his bare hands. Seems more suited to Lyorn - consider Aerich at the start of _TPG_. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 12:21:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:21:21 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4457A5AF.3030602@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? > Just one. Surprising, isn't it? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 12:28:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:28:36 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many Iorich does it take to sharpen a sword? -Three. The advocate, the justicer, and the executioner. How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? -One. But *which one*?? Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 12:21 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? > Just one. Surprising, isn't it? From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 12:40:15 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:40:15 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Dragons does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Seven. One to sharpen the sword, one to draw the circle, the two duelists, their two seconds, and one to judge. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 12:47:13 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:47:13 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Shouldn't there be one more there to perform the revivification afterwards? Or is that only at Castle Black? Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 12:40 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Dragons does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Seven. One to sharpen the sword, one to draw the circle, the two duelists, their two seconds, and one to judge. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 13:36:47 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:36:47 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Shouldn't there be one more there to perform the revivification > afterwards? > > Or is that only at Castle Black? > That's what the seconds are for: to engage the services of the physicker, healer, necromancer, and/or coroner, as required. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 13:44:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:44:50 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? -If the sword knows what's good for it, it will sharpen itself. Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 01:36 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Shouldn't there be one more there to perform the revivification > afterwards? > > Or is that only at Castle Black? > That's what the seconds are for: to engage the services of the physicker, healer, necromancer, and/or coroner, as required. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 14:24:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:24:34 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many Revolutionary Easterners does it take to sharpen a sword? -None, the grindstone contains the seeds of its own revolution. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 14:26:44 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:26:44 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Traditionally, four. One to sharpen the sword, one to compulsively record everything about the event, one to sign off as an additional witness, and one to enter the record into the archives. Hm. Lacks snappiness. Let's try it with less verbiage... How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? -Traditionally, four. One to sharpen, one to record, one to witness, and one to archive. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 2 14:30:07 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Traditionally, four. One to sharpen, one to record, one to witness, > and one to archive. Wouldn't the first Lyorn indicate with a look to his steward to have the local Vallista fetched to sharpen the sword? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 2 14:52:35 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:52:35 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You left out the ones to notarize, catalog, and sort. Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/02/06 02:26 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Traditionally, four. One to sharpen the sword, one to compulsively record everything about the event, one to sign off as an additional witness, and one to enter the record into the archives. Hm. Lacks snappiness. Let's try it with less verbiage... How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? -Traditionally, four. One to sharpen, one to record, one to witness, and one to archive. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 2 15:12:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:12:08 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > You left out the ones to notarize, catalog, and sort. > That's why it's "traditionally" four. Once the archive of sharpened sword records becomes large enough, then you need an entire staff to keep track of the damn things. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 2 15:16:11 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 5/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > You left out the ones to notarize, catalog, and sort. > > > > That's why it's "traditionally" four. Once the archive of sharpened > sword records becomes large enough, then you need an entire staff to > keep track of the damn things. Presumably also an historian to describe the evolving project in several volumes. This has probably happened enough times that researchers study the process. And other researchers study the development of said research. From bryann at bryann.net Tue May 2 17:48:41 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 19:48:41 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001601c66e4b$530c5ec0$6501a8c0@dell> > I've been trying to come up with sword jokes to fit each of the major > houses. How many Hawks does it take to sharpen a sword? One, but instead of sharpening the sword, he waits for everything else to get duller. ... How many Tsalmoth does is take to sharpen a sword? No one is quite sure, but the sword gets sharper. ... How many Iorich does it take to sharpen a sword? However many it took last time. ... How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? Two. The first one you ask won't know how, but he'll have a "friend" who can do it. ... How many Chreotha does it take to sharpen a sword? One, and for nine more orbs, he'll throw in an anti-dullness coating. ... How many Serioli does it take to sharpen a sword? One, but he'll injure himself so badly in the process that no other Serioli will ever make the attempt again. ... Bryan From lincicum at comcast.net Tue May 2 17:49:50 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 17:49:50 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4457FE2E.4020404@comcast.net> How many Orca does it take to sharpen a sword? Twelve. One to raise anchor, six to hoist the sails, a helmsman, navigator, bosun, mate, and captain. How many Tsalmoth does it take to sharpen a sword? Just one, but he eventually has to stop when the blade is worn completely through. How many Orca does it take to sharpen a sword? Five. One to sharpen the sword in Adrilankha, one to ship it to Landsight, another to Northport, another to Greenaere, and another to ship it back to Adrilankha where it sells for ten times the original price. How many Dragonlords does it take to sharpen a sword? Eighteen. One to sharpen the sword, and seventeen to instruct him to use it properly. How many Easterners does it take to sharpen a sword? No one knows, the swords last longer than the easterners do. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 2 21:34:29 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 21:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <001601c66e4b$530c5ec0$6501a8c0@dell> References: <001601c66e4b$530c5ec0$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2006, Bryan Newell wrote: > How many Iorich does it take to sharpen a sword? > > However many it took last time. Remind me what this refers to? > How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? > > Two. The first one you ask won't know how, but he'll have a "friend" who > can do it. I think this is the best I've seen so far. From bryann at bryann.net Tue May 2 23:04:55 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 01:04:55 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c66e77$8067d5d0$6501a8c0@dell> > On Tue, 2 May 2006, Bryan Newell wrote: > > > How many Iorich does it take to sharpen a sword? > > > > However many it took last time. > > Remind me what this refers to? I was thinking of legal precedents. Bryan From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed May 3 08:47:58 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 11:47:58 -0400 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <001601c66e4b$530c5ec0$6501a8c0@dell> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060503114030.00bc9900@camail.harvard.edu> How many Dragons does it take to sharpen a sword? That's Dragonlords; that's a double-edged great sword; and that's not funny. From tsarren at alyra.org Wed May 3 11:03:16 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:03:16 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20060503180316.GG6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:49:41AM -0700, Shawn Burns wrote: > > The Vallista joke is the perfect place to insert the Engineer Joke Steve > alludes to: > > How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? > Assume a spherical sword... > I thought that was a mathematician joke, but I may not be thinking about the same joke. The jokes of which I know involve a mathematician and two other scientists (one of which is usually an engineer, the other a biologist or chemist); the latter two come up with practical solutions to things, while the mathematician has the punchlines, one of which is, "assume a spherical cow." Kat From sraun at fireopal.org Wed May 3 11:27:08 2006 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:27:08 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060503180316.GG6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> <20060503180316.GG6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> Message-ID: <20060503182708.GC22094@fireopal.org> On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:03:16PM -0500, Tsarren wrote: > I thought that was a mathematician joke, but I may not be thinking about the > same joke. The jokes of which I know involve a mathematician and two other > scientists (one of which is usually an engineer, the other a biologist or > chemist); the latter two come up with practical solutions to things, while > the mathematician has the punchlines, one of which is, "assume a spherical > cow." I'm used to that being the punchline of a physicist joke. My wife made one to give to Dr. Mike this past Minicon - DD-B has a picture up at http://www.dd-b.net/gallery/picpage/ddb/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/04140-Minicon/140-friday?pic=ddb%2020060414%20020-025 -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From shawnb at stanford.edu Wed May 3 11:54:47 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:54:47 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060503182708.GC22094@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20060503185505.98B6EE9409@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Scott Raun > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:27 AM > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Sword Jokes. > > On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 01:03:16PM -0500, Tsarren wrote: > > I thought that was a mathematician joke, but I may not be thinking > > about the same joke. The jokes of which I know involve a > > mathematician and two other scientists (one of which is usually an > > engineer, the other a biologist or chemist); the latter two come up > > with practical solutions to things, while the mathematician has the > > punchlines, one of which is, "assume a spherical cow." > > I'm used to that being the punchline of a physicist joke. > > My wife made one to give to Dr. Mike this past Minicon - DD-B > has a picture up at > http://www.dd-b.net/gallery/picpage/ddb/SnapshotAlbum/data/200 6/04140-Minicon/140-friday?pic=ddb%2020060414%20020-025 > It's on the J & A page of Cracks and Shards, listed as an engineer joke. Shawn From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 3 11:59:57 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:59:57 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4450FCE8.21167.19AFCD4@localhost> Message-ID: How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? -Jhereg don't sharpen *swords*. Jhereg sharpen *daggers*. -or- One to deal with the higher-ups in the Organization, four to start a shereba game, one to recruit Teckla to play shereba, and one to loan funds to Teckla who lose at shereba. The one who runs the loan business will offer to forget about one of the payments the Teckla owes if said Teckla will just sharpen this sword over here. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 3 12:14:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:14:50 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmm.. This brings to mind the Teckla version: How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? Just one, so long as the Teckla is made of stone. Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/03/06 11:59 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? -Jhereg don't sharpen *swords*. Jhereg sharpen *daggers*. -or- One to deal with the higher-ups in the Organization, four to start a shereba game, one to recruit Teckla to play shereba, and one to loan funds to Teckla who lose at shereba. The one who runs the loan business will offer to forget about one of the payments the Teckla owes if said Teckla will just sharpen this sword over here. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 3 12:34:25 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:34:25 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How many Athyra does it take to sharpen a sword? -All of them. All of them? -First one wonders what "sharp" really means, and then another will wonder if the sword is "really" there, and the debate spreads until the whole House is involved. How many Hawks does it take to sharpen a sword? -None. They just redefine dullness as the new standard. How many Serioli does it take to sharpen a sword? -You think they would tell anyone? How many Orca does it take to sharpen a sword? -How much are you willing to pay to find out? How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? -Just one, but by the time he's done, he'll have a sword that can cut anything, open cans and bottles, turn screws, turn nuts and bolts of different sizes, scale fish, punch leather, and pick out splinters. And it will all fold up for easy portability. From ike at manor.org Wed May 3 14:03:44 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OT, but one of my favorites... How many Vorlons does it take to sharpen a sword? --*snapcoughsputtercatscreechhissstumblemoanspitspit*When the time is right you will know*mumblemutterfizzfizz* From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 3 14:09:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:09:50 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many Hawks does it take to sharpen a sword? -I don't understand the question. Sharpen is already an s-word. How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? -Before or after he splits with upstairs? What's the difference between a sword and a Teckla? -It's possible for a sword to get even more dull. Majikjon -"Suck it Trebek!" -"The day is mine!" "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/03/06 12:34 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. How many Athyra does it take to sharpen a sword? -All of them. All of them? -First one wonders what "sharp" really means, and then another will wonder if the sword is "really" there, and the debate spreads until the whole House is involved. How many Hawks does it take to sharpen a sword? -None. They just redefine dullness as the new standard. How many Serioli does it take to sharpen a sword? -You think they would tell anyone? How many Orca does it take to sharpen a sword? -How much are you willing to pay to find out? How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? -Just one, but by the time he's done, he'll have a sword that can cut anything, open cans and bottles, turn screws, turn nuts and bolts of different sizes, scale fish, punch leather, and pick out splinters. And it will all fold up for easy portability. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 3 20:55:53 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:55:53 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? -Who knows? The number keeps changing. -or- -No Jhegaala can sharpen a sword, because the sword changed by the grindstone is not the same sword, and the man who sharpens is not the same man. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed May 3 21:23:30 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 21:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060503182708.GC22094@fireopal.org> References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> <20060503180316.GG6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> <20060503182708.GC22094@fireopal.org> Message-ID: How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? Six. One to buy the lightbulb, one to peel them, one to drive the getaway car, now the world is gone I'm just one. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed May 3 22:13:26 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 22:13:26 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44598D76.5030102@comcast.net> How many Dragonlords does it take to sharpen a sword? None. That's the quartermaster's job. How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? During which cycle? How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? None, he just makes the sword feel at ease about being dull. Jon Davdi Silverrock wrote: > How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Who knows? The number keeps changing. > > -or- > > -No Jhegaala can sharpen a sword, because the sword changed by the > grindstone is not the same sword, and the man who sharpens is not the > same man. > From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 3 22:30:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:30:36 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <44598D76.5030102@comcast.net> References: <44598D76.5030102@comcast.net> Message-ID: (Pre-Interregnum) How many Phoenix does it take to sharpen a sword? -Let's see, one to hire the tags, one to procure the dreamgrass and murchin, one to buy the wine, one to rent a donkey - oh, you said *sharpen* a *sword*? That's silly. Phoenix will do just about anything, but not swords. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 3 22:50:17 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:50:17 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? -The appropriate number required by etiquette. When introducing one party (a sword) to another (a grindstone) for the purpose of prolonged and intimate interaction, courtesy requires that those making the introductions be familiar with the parties they are introducing, so as to ensure compatibility. How many Tsalmoth does it take to sharpen a sword? -[fx:grim voice through gritted teeth] As many as it *takes*. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu May 4 07:10:52 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 10:10:52 -0400 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445A0B6C.9070500@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Hmm.. This brings to mind the Teckla version: > >How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? > >Just one, so long as the Teckla is made of stone. > > > > I prefer this as a rhetorical question: How many swords does it take to sharpen a Teckla? Snarkhunter From davdisil at gmail.com Thu May 4 07:54:00 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:54:00 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How many Iorich does it take to sharpen a sword? -Just one. Get it? Because "just" also... What do you mean, there's a law against punning still on the books?! How many Gods does it take to sharpen a Great Weapon? -Depends on who's asking. -or- -[fx:simultaneous voice(s) of Verra] {As if!}{You're an amusing little arrogant worm, aren't you?}{That's for us to know and you to find out.}{Great Weapons don't need to be sharpened, it's one of the side benefits of them being Great.} How many Greenaerans does it take to sharpen a sword? -Hey, listen to this sound of the sword against the grindstone. Isn't that a great sound? [1] ________________________________________ [1] I'm generalizing from one example, here... From howard at brazee.net Thu May 4 08:11:00 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 09:11:00 -0600 Subject: Sword Jokes. Message-ID: <445A1984.9090804@brazee.net> On 8:54 AM Davdi Silverrock wrote: > -Hey, listen to this sound of the sword against the grindstone. Isn't > that a great sound? [1] > > > > ________________________________________ > [1] I'm generalizing from one example, here... Doesn't everybody? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu May 4 08:19:12 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:19:12 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/04/06 07:54 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. >How many Greenaerans does it take to sharpen a sword? > >-Hey, listen to this sound of the sword against the grindstone. Isn't >that a great sound? [1] This should probably be "drummers" not "Greenaerans", anyway. Hey! A Dragaera drummer joke! I'll have to add that to my list. Majikjon -What do you call a drummer who just broke up with his girlfriend? -Homeless -How do you tell if a drummer's riser is level? -The drool comes out of *both* sides of his mouth. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu May 4 08:22:21 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:22:21 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <445A1984.9090804@brazee.net> Message-ID: How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? -Ahem. To avoid certain... complications, the swords are *always* sharp. Majikjon (And the trucks are always rolling...) From davdisil at gmail.com Fri May 5 15:26:06 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:26:06 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <445A1984.9090804@brazee.net> Message-ID: How many Tiassa does it take to sharpen a sword? -Three. One to sharpen the sword, one to come up with ideas involving a sharp sword, and one to come up with ideas about what *not* to do with a sharp sword. [1] -or- -Three, because if they don't sharpen the sword in shifts, they'll get distract... ooh, shiny! __________________________________________ [1] Or in other words: "100 interesting things to do with a sword", by Lord "Strongarm" Jhamosa-nikol, and the sequel, "A dozen interesting things to not do with a sword", by Lord "One-Arm" Jhamosa-nikol. [2] [2] "Sharp swords and alcohol Do Not Go Well Together. You would think most people would know this, but." From singram at videotron.ca Sat May 6 19:37:34 2006 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 22:37:34 -0400 Subject: Sword Jokes. References: <44598D76.5030102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00c301c6717f$32b229c0$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> > How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? > > None, he just makes the sword feel at ease about being dull. > > Jon Right on the money From thnidu at yahoo.com Sat May 6 20:30:42 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cracks and Shards; preordering Dzur Message-ID: <20060507033042.14027.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Finally!.... added Dzur to the Books page, with a link so you can (pre)order it from Amazon. (Ordering it through this link will not cost you a penny more or affect your order in any way -- or so Amazon promises me -- but will help support Cracks and Shards with a small commission.) The order URL is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From carpovita at earthlink.net Sun May 7 09:22:25 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:22:25 -0600 Subject: Confirmed Dragaera track at Opus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <06b401c671f2$6e0b81b0$7e1cfea9@Carpovita> Brust Track: Listed below are the appearance details for our Literature Guest of Honor, Steven Brust. In addition to the scheduled events you may be able to attend the occasional impromptu panel with him. We title these "Late Night Musings" and make no promises that you will be able to attend because, a) you have to be awake when they happen, and b) you have to find him . Steve is a naturally a night creature, as such he tends to be up longer than the convention programming gives him things to do. Many people have reported that if you track him down in the wee hours of a con that he can be found spinning impromptu tales, debating politics religion and theology, or involved in various arcane meditation and rejuvenation rites that involve alcohol and tobacco. If you are lucky enough to find him at one of the sessions you'll never forget the experience. If this sounds interesting we suggest that you start your search for him in the hotel Pub. Scheduled Brust sightings: Friday 5:00 PM: Book Signing - Vendor Hall (Grand Mesa D-E) Steve signs books that you bring him. Please only bring him books that he was involved in and keep the quantity light - we like seeing new things from him and want to avoid giving him literal writer's cramp. 6:30 PM: Author's choice reading - Mesa Verde B Let's start of right. Steve has written in various genres, time periods, and styles, and in the last year he's even become involved in a Firefly novel bid. We'll let him decide what he wants to read from - but no matter what he chooses you'll be glad you are there to hear him. 8:00 PM: Writing books while giggling - Mesa Verde B Steve tells how Dragaera got a second series. And why he never expected it to be published, let alone sell. Writing _The Phoenix Guards_ and the unpublished Firefly novel, and what was behind these books as well as the others. How he nicknames all his own books, but not his collaborations. Saturday 2:00 PM Dragaera Q&A - Mesa Verde B Join the writer of one of Fantasy's best loved series as he discusses with the audience the why's and what fors of his vibrant world. He may even answer a few burning questions of the realm - but, knowing Steve, he'll likely leave you with more questions than you entered with. 4:00 PM: Tarot Design - Mesa Verde B What would a Dragaeran Tarot Deck look like - and how would Dragaerans use it? Steve will be joined by a tarot expert and you, the audience, while you all delve into what exactly such a Tarot would look like and how it would be used, by Dragaerans, and perhaps even by those of us in less fantastic worlds. 6:00 till Done - The Dragaeran Feast - Room 1121 What do they eat in Dragaera? You've read about it, but now you have the chance to wrap your tongue around "authentic" Dragaeran food. Best of all you'll be dining with Steve at this exclusive and delicious multi-course meal. 9:00 PM: Steve on Stage - Mesa Verde B Steve, a guitar and a stage. The only thing between him and the bar is you - the audience. Come listen to their dulcet tones, make requests if you like - but just like in his books, expect him to take you places you did not think to go. Sunday 1:00 PM: Dragaeran games - Thunder Pass Dragaerans live an awful long time and torturing Easterners can only keep boredom at bay for so long. So, what sort of games do Dragaerans play? Come and explore the pass-times of the well-nigh-immortal. 2:30 PM: Book Signing - Vendor Hall (Grand Mesa D-E) Steve signs books that you bring him. Please only bring him books that he was involved in and keep the quantity light - we like seeing new things from him and want to avoid giving him literal writer's cramp. 4:00 PM: Fan Fiction - Thunder Pass Fans writing fiction based in someone else's universe is a big thing in fandom. While most writers can often talk to their fans about fan fiction written in their worlds Steve can also tell you about his own experience and techniques when writing fan fiction. Steve is in the running to be an official writer in the Firefly universe, but no matter who gets chosen we'll all still get to see what he has in mind as he has promised his fans that in the event his Firefly novel is NOT published, he'll publish it as fanfic. Please note the following changes - The Dragaera LARP has been cancelled this year due to the joyous occurrence of the Head storyteller's pregnancy and As to the other I blame OPEC as the Dragaera RPG discussion has been cancelled due to the price of gas - the company putting it together is on the East coast and cannot afford the gas to get to Opus and back again - Steve does not want to sit that panel alone for obvious reasons. From howard at brazee.net Sun May 7 11:05:30 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 12:05:30 -0600 Subject: Confirmed Dragaera track at Opus Message-ID: <445E36EA.5010201@brazee.net> On 10:22 AM Rion Bergquist wrote: > Steve is a naturally a night creature, as such he tends to be up > longer than > the convention programming gives him things to do. Many people have > reported that if you track him down in the wee hours of a con that he > can be > found spinning impromptu tales, debating politics religion and > theology, or > involved in various arcane meditation and rejuvenation rites that > involve alcohol and tobacco. That's too bad. I'll be at the hotel sleeping. There's a guy like that at my work, who I've found still working when I come in in the morning before it gets light. The bad thing about being a morning person is that I miss out on Jazz clubs. The good part is that I can do out-doors stuff after work. I don't adjust as easily as I did when I was young, but hopefully will find some fun Brust times before I fall asleep. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun May 7 13:50:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:50:02 -0700 Subject: Huckleberry Message-ID: For those with an interest in 19th century slang (which is related to matters Brustian via SKZB's preference for answering the telephone with "I'm your huckleberry"), I recently found this website: http://www.campchase.com/Slang/Slang-A-F.htm http://www.campchase.com/Slang/Slang-G-M.htm http://www.campchase.com/Slang/Slang-N-Z.htm [Begin Cite] *Huckleberry above a persimmon*: /a cut above./ The phrase had many variations and shades of meaning. _1836_: It is a huckleberry above my persimmon to cipher out how I find myself the most popular bookmaker of the day. Colonel Crockett in Texas, p.13 _1844_: She's a great gal that! Show me another like her any whar, and I am thar directly. She's a huckleberry above most people's persimmons. Philadelphia Spirit of the Times, August 24 _1885_: I'm a huckleberry above that persimmon. Admiral Porter, Incidents of the Civil War, p.204 [End Cite] From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon May 8 11:40:32 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 08 May 2006 13:40:32 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060503180316.GG6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> References: <0f3e01c66e16$a6322d80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> <20060503180316.GG6472@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> Message-ID: <87y7xcwean.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Tsarren writes: > On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 11:49:41AM -0700, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > The Vallista joke is the perfect place to insert the Engineer Joke Steve > > alludes to: > > > > How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? > > Assume a spherical sword... > > > > I thought that was a mathematician joke, but I may not be thinking about the > same joke. The jokes of which I know involve a mathematician and two other > scientists (one of which is usually an engineer, the other a biologist or > chemist); the latter two come up with practical solutions to things, while > the mathematician has the punchlines, one of which is, "assume a spherical > cow." The spherical cow is generally associated with physics. At Minicon this year, one also showed up for Ask Dr. Mike: -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From chica at dreamcafe.com Mon May 8 12:36:35 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 12:36:35 -0700 Subject: Steve's schedule In-Reply-To: <20060508170007.F2EF2E9504@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060508170007.F2EF2E9504@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <445F9DC3.2000705@dreamcafe.com> > Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 12:05:30 -0600 > From: Howard Brazee > Subject: Re: Confirmed Dragaera track at Opus > > On 10:22 AM Rion Bergquist wrote: >> Steve is a naturally a night creature, as such he tends to be up >> longer than >> the convention programming gives him things to do. Many people have >> reported that if you track him down in the wee hours of a con that he >> can be >> found spinning impromptu tales, debating politics religion and >> theology, or >> involved in various arcane meditation and rejuvenation rites that >> involve alcohol and tobacco. > > That's too bad. I'll be at the hotel sleeping. There's a guy like > that at my work, who I've found still working when I come in in the > morning before it gets light. > > The bad thing about being a morning person is that I miss out on Jazz > clubs. The good part is that I can do out-doors stuff after work. I > don't adjust as easily as I did when I was young, but hopefully will > find some fun Brust times before I fall asleep. Sometimes Steve is a morning person too, Howard. :> Actually, Steve has a rotating schedule with 26 hour days. This comes across as a night person because he's up at odd hours. There's always a point where Steve goes to bed at 9am, for example. But maybe some of you on list knew that already. It rotates somewhat erratically, depending on what else is going on. Next week, Steve will have wrenched his schedule around to be awake... to get to the airport and and for con. Doc hates it when Steve sleeps through the daytime. I hate it when Steve can't sleep. :/ I realize it's not in increments of 17, but there you have it. *--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From felixeisen at yahoo.com Mon May 8 13:30:22 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060508203022.47348.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> How many Tsalmoth does it take to sharpen a sword? You think a Tsalmoth would let a sword get dull? How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? Just one, but it might not be a sword by the time he's done... How many Phoenix does it take to sharpen a sword? First a phoenix has to pass overhead... How many Hawklords does it take to sharpen a sword? Three; one to sharpen it, and two to decide when it's sharp -enough-. How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? Only one to make the arrangements, but you'll never see the whetstone. --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. From shawnb at stanford.edu Mon May 8 14:20:35 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 14:20:35 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060508203022.47348.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Felix Eisen > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 1:30 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. > > How many Tsalmoth does it take to sharpen a sword? > You think a Tsalmoth would let a sword get dull? > > > How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? > Just one, but it might not be a sword by the time he's done... > > > How many Phoenix does it take to sharpen a sword? > First a phoenix has to pass overhead... > > How many Hawklords does it take to sharpen a sword? > Three; one to sharpen it, and two to decide when it's sharp > -enough-. > > How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? > Only one to make the arrangements, but you'll never see the > whetstone. So it just occurred to me, after reading these and countless other sword jokes, that we might be approaching them in the wrong way entirely, if one of our purposes is to contribute jokes similar to the originals. For the most part, we've been offering versions that elicit responses appropriate for those already acquainted in some way with Dragaera and the Houses. There have been some exceptions, but for the most part that is how they have run. However, the brilliance (bright, shining, illumination) of the jokes already written was that they were in fact out-jokes instead of in-jokes. They make use of something everyone who is NOT Dragaeran would be familiar with or would respond to in order to reveal something about the Houses instead of playing on our knowledge of the House to make a funny. From pulmon at mac.com Mon May 8 17:28:19 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 20:28:19 -0400 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> References: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <70716F14-F968-442E-8DAD-CD9D22051132@mac.com> On May 8, 2006, at 5:20 PM, Shawn Burns wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >> [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Felix Eisen >> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 1:30 PM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. >> >> How many Tsalmoth does it take to sharpen a sword? >> You think a Tsalmoth would let a sword get dull? >> >> >> How many Jhegaala does it take to sharpen a sword? >> Just one, but it might not be a sword by the time he's done... >> >> >> How many Phoenix does it take to sharpen a sword? >> First a phoenix has to pass overhead... >> >> How many Hawklords does it take to sharpen a sword? >> Three; one to sharpen it, and two to decide when it's sharp >> -enough-. >> >> How many Issola does it take to sharpen a sword? >> Only one to make the arrangements, but you'll never see the >> whetstone. > > So it just occurred to me, after reading these and countless other > sword > jokes, that we might be approaching them in the wrong way entirely, > if one > of our purposes is to contribute jokes similar to the originals. > For the > most part, we've been offering versions that elicit responses > appropriate > for those already acquainted in some way with Dragaera and the > Houses. There > have been some exceptions, but for the most part that is how they > have run. > However, the brilliance (bright, shining, illumination) of the > jokes already > written was that they were in fact out-jokes instead of in-jokes. > They make > use of something everyone who is NOT Dragaeran would be familiar > with or > would respond to in order to reveal something about the Houses > instead of > playing on our knowledge of the House to make a funny. > So, how many radical lesbian Dzurlords does it take to sharpen a sword? From ray at madrabbit.org Mon May 8 17:30:03 2006 From: ray at madrabbit.org (Ray Lee) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 17:30:03 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <70716F14-F968-442E-8DAD-CD9D22051132@mac.com> References: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> <70716F14-F968-442E-8DAD-CD9D22051132@mac.com> Message-ID: <445FE28B.8070809@madrabbit.org> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > So, how many radical lesbian Dzurlords does it take to sharpen a sword? None. Radical lesbian Dzurlords need a sword like a fish needs a bicycle. ~r. From books at bofh.com Mon May 8 18:07:18 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 18:07:18 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <70716F14-F968-442E-8DAD-CD9D22051132@mac.com> References: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> <70716F14-F968-442E-8DAD-CD9D22051132@mac.com> Message-ID: <20060509010718.GA2397@bofh.com> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 08:28:19PM -0400, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > So, how many radical lesbian Dzurlords does it take to sharpen a sword? The number of potentially offensive answers to this I can come up with is virtually limitless. [1] -Jot [1] 0. No matter how hard they say it is, it never really dulls a sword. [2] 0. Although, now that you mention it, it does look like a wound. [3] 3. Really, I could keep going. -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "Sangamon's Principle: The simpler the molecule, the better the drug. So the best drug is oxygen. Only two atoms. [...]" -Neal Stephenson, Zodiac From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 9 19:00:51 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 19:00:51 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> References: <20060508203022.47348.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On 5/8/06, Shawn Burns wrote: > They make use of something everyone who is NOT Dragaeran > would be familiar with or would respond to in order to reveal > something about the Houses instead of playing on our knowledge > of the House to make a funny. How many Lyorn-Jhereg crossbreeds does it take to sharpen a sword? From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Tue May 9 19:30:35 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 22:30:35 EDT Subject: Confirmed Dragaera track at Opus-posted around Message-ID: <269.a0c3e19.3192aa4b@aol.com> The following info is now on http://www.fireflyfans.net/ http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=20499 And www.serenitymovie.org http://www.serenitymovie.org/browncoats/forums/index.php?showtopic=5986 And the old Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stevenbrust Steven Brust's Firefly Novel--We will get to read it! On Steven Brust Firefly novel: "Steve is in the running to be an official writer in the Firefly universe, but no matter who gets chosen we'll all still get to see what he has in mind as he has promised his fans that in the event his Firefly novel is NOT published, he'll publish it as fanfic." I received the following info in an email from Steven Brust's mailing list http://dragaera.info/ on 5/7/2006. about Opus Fantasy Arts Festival May 19-21 2006 at Hyatt DTC Denver, CO http://www.opusfest.com/ If you don't want to read it all, edit find or search for the word Firefly. email from Rion Bergquist Chairman and Herder of Cats Opus Fantasy Arts Festival Subject:Confirmed Dragaera track at Opus "Brust Track: Listed below are the appearance details for our Literature Guest of Honor, Steven Brust. In addition to the scheduled events you may be able to attend the occasional impromptu panel with him. We title these "Late Night Musings" and make no promises that you will be able to attend because, a) you have to be awake when they happen, and b) you have to find him . Steve is a naturally a night creature, as such he tends to be up longer than the convention programming gives him things to do. Many people have reported that if you track him down in the wee hours of a con that he can be found spinning impromptu tales, debating politics religion and theology, or involved in various arcane meditation and rejuvenation rites that involve alcohol and tobacco. If you are lucky enough to find him at one of the sessions you'll never forget the experience. If this sounds interesting we suggest that you start your search for him in the hotel Pub. Scheduled Brust sightings: Friday 5:00 PM: Book Signing - Vendor Hall (Grand Mesa D-E) Steve signs books that you bring him. Please only bring him books that he was involved in and keep the quantity light - we like seeing new things from him and want to avoid giving him literal writer's cramp. 6:30 PM: Author's choice reading - Mesa Verde B Let's start of right. Steve has written in various genres, time periods, and styles, and in the last year he's even become involved in a Firefly novel bid. We'll let him decide what he wants to read from - but no matter what he chooses you'll be glad you are there to hear him. 8:00 PM: Writing books while giggling - Mesa Verde B Steve tells how Dragaera got a second series. And why he never expected it to be published, let alone sell. Writing _The Phoenix Guards_ and the unpublished Firefly novel, and what was behind these books as well as the others. How he nicknames all his own books, but not his collaborations. Saturday 2:00 PM Dragaera Q&A - Mesa Verde B Join the writer of one of Fantasy's best loved series as he discusses with the audience the why's and what fors of his vibrant world. He may even answer a few burning questions of the realm - but, knowing Steve, he'll likely leave you with more questions than you entered with. 4:00 PM: Tarot Design - Mesa Verde B What would a Dragaeran Tarot Deck look like - and how would Dragaerans use it? Steve will be joined by a tarot expert and you, the audience, while you all delve into what exactly such a Tarot would look like and how it would be used, by Dragaerans, and perhaps even by those of us in less fantastic worlds. 6:00 till Done - The Dragaeran Feast - Room 1121 What do they eat in Dragaera? You've read about it, but now you have the chance to wrap your tongue around "authentic" Dragaeran food. Best of all you'll be dining with Steve at this exclusive and delicious multi-course meal. 9:00 PM: Steve on Stage - Mesa Verde B Steve, a guitar and a stage. The only thing between him and the bar is you - the audience. Come listen to their dulcet tones, make requests if you like - but just like in his books, expect him to take you places you did not think to go. Sunday 1:00 PM: Dragaeran games - Thunder Pass Dragaerans live an awful long time and torturing Easterners can only keep boredom at bay for so long. So, what sort of games do Dragaerans play? Come and explore the pass-times of the well-nigh-immortal. 2:30 PM: Book Signing - Vendor Hall (Grand Mesa D-E) Steve signs books that you bring him. Please only bring him books that he was involved in and keep the quantity light - we like seeing new things from him and want to avoid giving him literal writer's cramp. 4:00 PM: Fan Fiction - Thunder Pass Fans writing fiction based in someone else's universe is a big thing in fandom. While most writers can often talk to their fans about fan fiction written in their worlds Steve can also tell you about his own experience and techniques when writing fan fiction. Steve is in the running to be an official writer in the Firefly universe, but no matter who gets chosen we'll all still get to see what he has in mind as he has promised his fans that in the event his Firefly novel is NOT published, he'll publish it as fanfic." From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 9 21:38:32 2006 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 21:38:32 -0700 Subject: TRIH Limerick Message-ID: <20060510043832.GA11859@ofb.net> I'm working on adapting To Reign in Hell's cosmology for Ars Magica, and just happened to analyze Ariel's limerick to Leviathan, on page 21. It has a dirty structure which I had not appreciated before. Might have been more obvious if read aloud. Thought process: * That's not a limerick, the fifth line doesn't rhyme. * Oh wait, if I look inside... * Now I get why she splashed him. -xx- Damien X-) From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 23:35:32 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 23:35:32 -0700 Subject: TRIH Limerick References: <20060510043832.GA11859@ofb.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: TRIH Limerick > I'm working on adapting To Reign in Hell's cosmology for Ars Magica, and just > happened to analyze Ariel's limerick to Leviathan, on page 21. It has a dirty > structure which I had not appreciated before. Might have been more obvious if > read aloud. > > Thought process: > * That's not a limerick, the fifth line doesn't rhyme. > * Oh wait, if I look inside... > * Now I get why she splashed him. > > -xx- Damien X-) Damn it, I can remember the scene, but the limerick doesn't immediately come to mind. Now I have to get up. Hmm, on page 33 and 34 in this copy: "The judgements that you tend to pass, On poets you wish to harass, Would give me to swear, Were I unaware, That you are naught but an asset to the Heaenly throne, wherefore I leave you alone." jeff -selflessly walking the two feet to the bookcase, so you don't have too. From howard at brazee.net Wed May 10 11:56:34 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:56:34 -0600 Subject: First person narratives Message-ID: <44623762.5010209@brazee.net> I just read a Robert Parker "Spenser" detective novel. The first person narrative kept making Spenser very noble. The trouble is - I don't see him telling someone how noble he is to create a first person narrative - unless he's lying about his nobility. I don't get that problem with Vlad, much. He's not telling us how good he is. I'm not sure what he gets from talking to the silver box - nor how honest he is with that box. But mostly I don't notice that he's talking about himself, it's more like I'm in his brain observing things as they happen. I'm not sure how that happens. Agatha Christie has a novel where the first person narrator was the guilty party, that was kind of fun. From chica at dreamcafe.com Wed May 10 14:53:26 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:53:26 -0700 Subject: Firefly on the Web In-Reply-To: <20060510170005.74796E9449@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060510170005.74796E9449@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <446260D6.4070101@dreamcafe.com> Folks, There is NO OFFICIAL WORD of Steve 'being in the running' for publishing Firefly. None. It is an unsubstantiated rumor. I did check all the forums [on Simon & Schuster] for news. "Firefly" sometimes brings up people talking about the series or the movie - but that's it. http://bbs.simonsays.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000490#000000 Patience. But Steve enjoys reading the Firefly manuscript at cons. Wearing his Wash t-shirt. --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica > Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 22:30:35 EDT > From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com > Subject: Re: Confirmed Dragaera track at Opus-posted around > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > The following info is now on http://www.fireflyfans.net/ > > http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=20499 > > And www.serenitymovie.org > > http://www.serenitymovie.org/browncoats/forums/index.php?showtopic=5986 > > And the old Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stevenbrust > > Steven Brust's Firefly Novel--We will get to read it! > > On Steven Brust Firefly novel: > "Steve is in the running to be an official writer in the Firefly universe, > but no matter who gets chosen we'll all still get to see what he has in mind as > he has promised his fans that in > the event his Firefly novel is NOT published, he'll publish it as fanfic." > > I received the following info in an email from Steven Brust's mailing list > http://dragaera.info/ on 5/7/2006. > > about Opus Fantasy Arts Festival > May 19-21 2006 at Hyatt DTC Denver, CO > http://www.opusfest.com/ > > If you don't want to read it all, edit find or search for the word Firefly. ... > 4:00 PM: Fan Fiction - Thunder Pass > Fans writing fiction based in someone else's universe is a big thing in > fandom. While most writers can often talk to their fans about fan fiction > written in their worlds Steve can also tell you about his own experience and > techniques when writing fan fiction. Steve is in the running to be an > official writer in the Firefly universe, but no matter who gets chosen we'll > all still get to see what he has in mind as he has promised his fans that in > the event his Firefly novel is NOT published, he'll publish it as fanfic." > From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed May 10 17:40:55 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:40:55 -0600 Subject: Menu for the feast at Opus In-Reply-To: <269.a0c3e19.3192aa4b@aol.com> Message-ID: <005901c67493$90d8a710$0f00a8c0@Carpovita> 6:00 till Done - The Dragaeran Feast - Room 1121 What do they eat in Dragaera? You've read about it, but now you have the chance to wrap your tongue around "authentic" Dragaeran food. Best of all you'll be dining with Steve at this exclusive and delicious multi-course meal. Valabar's It is a very simple place on the inside, with white linen tablecloths and simple furnishings, but none of the decoration that most places have. The waiters are pleasant and charming and very efficient, and almost as difficult to notice as Kragar when they are slipping up on you to refill your wine glass. -- Taltos The feast: ("Barackaranybol" -- Taltos & red wine served throughout the meal) Hors d'oeuvre The pate - made of goose liver, chicken liver, kethna liver, herbs, and unsalted butter - was served on hard-crusted bread with cucumber slices that had been just barely pickled. -- Taltos Fresh scallops in lemon and garlic sauce -- Taltos Salad Tossed baby spinach with water-chestnuts, shredded carrots and baby shrimp drizzled in a horseradish dressing. Soup Bowl of fish soup -- Orca Main Course At that point our pepper sausages showed up. Laris - and Loiosh - were right; it was very good. They served it with green rice covered with cheese sauce. -- Yendi Kragar's date had the biggest stuffed cabbage in the world. -- Taltos Mara had duck in plum brandy sauce. -- Taltos Dessert The sorbet was lemon -- Taltos We followed it with dessert pancakes, mine with finely ground walnuts and cream chocolate brandy sauce topped with oranges. -- Taltos After Dinner Klava - You press coffee through a filter made of eggshells and wood chips with vanilla bean, then reheat it so it almost boils, then you pass it through a cloth to remove any oils brought out by the reheating. -- Issola Various pastries From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri May 12 13:00:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: There's a CIA officer named Brant Bassett in the news of late - he was active in what's been called the "personnel bloodletting" in the agency the last few years and he's mixed up in the prostitution/poker/corruption controversy that's beginning to hit page 1 and just took down the #3 guy (and possibly the #1). Oh, and he's known as "Nine Fingers". From shawnb at stanford.edu Fri May 12 13:38:18 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:38:18 -0700 Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 1:01 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: eternal recurrence > > There's a CIA officer named Brant Bassett in the news of late > - he was active in what's been called the "personnel bloodletting" > in the agency the last few years and he's mixed up in the > prostitution/poker/corruption controversy that's beginning to > hit page 1 and just took down the #3 guy (and possibly the #1). > Oh, and he's known as "Nine Fingers". > Wow. Just like Frodo. (After returning from Mordor, Frodo opened a brothel in Bag End called "The House of the Rising Silmaril." It's been the ruin of many a poor dwarf, and Gimli (son of Gloin) is one.) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri May 12 14:18:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > > > > There's a CIA officer named Brant Bassett in the news of late > > - he was active in what's been called the "personnel bloodletting" > > in the agency the last few years and he's mixed up in the > > prostitution/poker/corruption controversy that's beginning to > > hit page 1 and just took down the #3 guy (and possibly the #1). > > Oh, and he's known as "Nine Fingers". > > > > Wow. Just like Frodo. (After returning from Mordor, Frodo opened a brothel > in Bag End called "The House of the Rising Silmaril." It's been the ruin of > many a poor dwarf, and Gimli (son of Gloin) is one.) Oops, seem to have posted to the list about LOTR, not the Vladiad. For those unfamiliar with the latter, it's a long-running series about a man working as an assassin for and within a corrupt and shady organization while trying to find himself. Oh, and he had to parry a sword with a finger, or caught a burning coal, or had an accident with a slammed door, or ... The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are well worth checking out. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri May 12 14:33:53 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:33:53 -0700 Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: > Oops, seem to have posted to the list about LOTR, not the Vladiad. > For those unfamiliar with the latter, it's a long-running series > about a man working as an assassin for and within a corrupt and shady > organization while trying to find himself. Oh, and he had to parry a > sword with a finger, or caught a burning coal, or had an accident with a > slammed door, or ... > > The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are > well worth checking out. Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you know who the author is? Thanks for the info! Chris (Offering irony for irony) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri May 12 14:37:14 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: > > The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are > > well worth checking out. > > Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you know who the > author is? > > Thanks for the info! > > Chris (Offering irony for irony) Sadly, I've been reading editions with the cover and copyright pages missing for some reason. If you cover the photocopying and shipping costs (including a nominal fee to cover my time investment), I'd be happy to send you the set. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri May 12 17:45:05 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:45:05 -0700 Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 5/12/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 May 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: > > > The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are > > > well worth checking out. > > > > Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you know who the > > author is? > > > > Thanks for the info! > > > > Chris (Offering irony for irony) > > > Sadly, I've been reading editions with the cover and copyright pages > missing for some reason. And also missing the spine, the back cover, the "about the author" page, and the top margin of the book for good measure? I hear tell that the author's name is something like "Burst". Just like a popped balloon. Or someone violently sobbing ("...into tears"). From shawnb at stanford.edu Fri May 12 18:07:11 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:07:11 -0700 Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44653206.759dfb54.25b8.62d8SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 5:45 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: eternal recurrence > > On 5/12/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 12 May 2006, Chris Olson wrote: > > > > > Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: > > > > The books are written in a variety of streamlined > styles and are > > > > well worth checking out. > > > > > > Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you > know who the > > > author is? > > > > > > Thanks for the info! > > > > > > Chris (Offering irony for irony) > > > > > > Sadly, I've been reading editions with the cover and > copyright pages > > missing for some reason. > > And also missing the spine, the back cover, the "about the author" > page, and the top margin of the book for good measure? > > I hear tell that the author's name is something like "Burst". > Just like a popped balloon. Or someone violently sobbing > ("...into tears"). You know who often bursts "into tears"? Samwise Gamgee. Especially because he loses so often at shereba that he gets deep into debt to Frodo who has to send his button men Merry and Pippin to collect, unless it's a situation that warrants the attention of Frodo's "wizard", Gandalf. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri May 12 18:11:14 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 5/12/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > Sadly, I've been reading editions with the cover and copyright pages > > missing for some reason. > > And also missing the spine, the back cover Aren't those part of the cover? >the "about the author" page, and the top margin of the book for good > measure? Ah. It's sometimes hard to know what's missing when, well, it's missing. From singram at videotron.ca Fri May 12 19:12:13 2006 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 22:12:13 -0400 Subject: eternal recurrence References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <00b301c67632$a5fdbdb0$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> > Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: >> Oops, seem to have posted to the list about LOTR, not the Vladiad. >> For those unfamiliar with the latter, it's a long-running series >> about a man working as an assassin for and within a corrupt and shady >> organization while trying to find himself. Oh, and he had to parry a >> sword with a finger, or caught a burning coal, or had an accident with a >> slammed door, or ... >> >> The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are >> well worth checking out. > > Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you know who the author > is? > I passed that description on to a German friend of mine and although he failed to name the author he held the opinion that the author of the described series was a boob. Scott Ingram From pulmon at mac.com Fri May 12 20:28:38 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 23:28:38 -0400 Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: <00b301c67632$a5fdbdb0$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> <00b301c67632$a5fdbdb0$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> Message-ID: <16F93453-811F-4276-A957-675E41E4AF7A@mac.com> On May 12, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Scott Ingram wrote: >> Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: >>> Oops, seem to have posted to the list about LOTR, not the Vladiad. >>> For those unfamiliar with the latter, it's a long-running series >>> about a man working as an assassin for and within a corrupt and >>> shady >>> organization while trying to find himself. Oh, and he had to >>> parry a >>> sword with a finger, or caught a burning coal, or had an accident >>> with a >>> slammed door, or ... >>> >>> The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are >>> well worth checking out. >> >> Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you know who >> the author is? >> > > I passed that description on to a German friend of mine and > although he failed to name the author he held the opinion that the > author of the described series was a boob. > > Scott Ingram Do you mean "Breast"? From singram at videotron.ca Fri May 12 21:02:36 2006 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 00:02:36 -0400 Subject: eternal recurrence References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> <00b301c67632$a5fdbdb0$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> <16F93453-811F-4276-A957-675E41E4AF7A@mac.com> Message-ID: <00bd01c67642$11a80160$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> > > On May 12, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Scott Ingram wrote: > >>> Philip Hart wrote On 05/12/06 14:18,: >>>> Oops, seem to have posted to the list about LOTR, not the Vladiad. >>>> For those unfamiliar with the latter, it's a long-running series >>>> about a man working as an assassin for and within a corrupt and >>>> shady >>>> organization while trying to find himself. Oh, and he had to >>>> parry a >>>> sword with a finger, or caught a burning coal, or had an accident >>>> with a >>>> slammed door, or ... >>>> >>>> The books are written in a variety of streamlined styles and are >>>> well worth checking out. >>> >>> Thanks, Philip! I'll have to check those out. Do you know who >>> the author is? >>> >> >> I passed that description on to a German friend of mine and >> although he failed to name the author he held the opinion that the >> author of the described series was a boob. >> >> Scott Ingram > Do you mean "Breast"? Yes, but then the joke doesn't work. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri May 12 21:52:07 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:52:07 -0700 Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: <00bd01c67642$11a80160$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> References: <20060512203840.C6F7FE94CC@gw.dd-b.net> <4464FF41.4090503@Sun.COM> <00b301c67632$a5fdbdb0$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> <16F93453-811F-4276-A957-675E41E4AF7A@mac.com> <00bd01c67642$11a80160$6400a8c0@scott2e0fd5972> Message-ID: On 5/12/06, Scott Ingram wrote: > > Do you mean "Breast"? > > Yes, but then the joke doesn't work. Well, you could always point out that the author obviously is abreast [pause goes here] of the current trends in fiction writing... Or I could shut up now. From ike at manor.org Sat May 13 13:00:22 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 16:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eternal recurrence In-Reply-To: <20060513010728.6C41FE9439@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060513010728.6C41FE9439@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > You know who often bursts "into tears"? Samwise Gamgee. Especially because HE WAS TEH GH3Y!!!!!!11!!!ONED!!!!!! From felixeisen at yahoo.com Sat May 13 17:24:46 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Sword and the Onion Message-ID: <20060514002446.66645.qmail@web52604.mail.yahoo.com> So we have a host of sword jokes about the Houses. I should note I disagree with the comment that these are unlike the ones in Brust's book; those (Dzur, Yendi) make a point of highlighting the House's 'unique attribute/outlook'. But what about bad spots and onions? A Yendi will find a bad spot, have their staff cook and serve the meal, but somehow the person they want to insult is the one who bites into the bad spot. A Jhegaala might find a bad spot, they might not -- but you wouldn't be able to tell from eating the food whether there was a bad spot or not. A Phoenix would find a bad spot and cut it out, until much later in life -- when all they want are bad spots. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun May 14 14:27:58 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRIH Limerick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060514212758.30070.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff wrote: > Hmm, on page 33 and 34 in this copy: > > "The judgements that you tend to pass, > On poets you wish to harass, > Would give me to swear, > Were I unaware, > That you are naught but an asset to the Heavenly throne, wherefore I > leave you alone." O Bottom, thou art translated! -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun May 14 15:02:30 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060503185505.98B6EE9409@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20060514220230.43303.qmail@web31014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Shawn Burns wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Scott Raun > > I'm used to that being the punchline of a physicist joke. > > It's on the J & A page of Cracks and Shards, listed as an engineer joke. http://www.cracksandshards.com/jokes.html#misc -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun May 14 15:28:03 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060502184946.DD26A4C702@smtp1.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20060514222804.10883.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Shawn Burns wrote: > The Vallista joke is the perfect place to insert the Engineer Joke Steve > alludes to: > > How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? > Assume a spherical sword... No, this case does not involve a field. Assume a linear sword of infinitesimal width and depth. It is already as sharp as is theoretically possible. QEF.* -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] * Quod erat faciendum: 'Which was to be done.' -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun May 14 21:21:43 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060514222804.10883.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060515042143.54524.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All right, this has gone far enough. I've collected the lot of 'em and put them up at http://cracksandshards.com/swordjokes.txt, with a link from http://cracksandshards.com/jokes.html -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://filk.cracksandshards.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun May 14 21:24:34 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokedown Palace Message-ID: <20060515042434.93798.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You can preorder the forthcoming reissue of Brokedown Palace from Amazon through Cracks and Shards at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765315041/cracksandshar-20 It won't cost you any more, and Amazon will pay a small commission that will help support Cracks and Shards. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://filk.cracksandshards.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun May 14 22:07:38 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 22:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: <20060515042434.93798.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060515042434.93798.qmail@web31011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 May 2006, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > You can preorder the forthcoming reissue of Brokedown Palace [snippage about how I preordered _Dzur_] Anybody know if there's anything new about this edition beyond the wrapping? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 06:46:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 06:46:16 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, Steve's LJ mentioned he was doing page-proofs on it, so there may be minor spelling/grammatical fixes. My guess is that it will probably be one of those larger-sized paperback volumes, as well. Oh, and I'll bet it will have new cover art. Majikjon Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/14/06 10:07 PM To Dragaera list cc Subject Re: Brokedown Palace On Sun, 14 May 2006, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > You can preorder the forthcoming reissue of Brokedown Palace [snippage about how I preordered _Dzur_] Anybody know if there's anything new about this edition beyond the wrapping? From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 15 08:50:46 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:50:46 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060515042143.54524.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060514222804.10883.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060515042143.54524.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/14/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > All right, this has gone far enough. > > I've collected the lot of 'em and put them up at > http://cracksandshards.com/swordjokes.txt > You left out this one, which I think worked rather well for the Athyra: http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2006q2/002296.html I mean, as long as you're collecting them... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 09:01:00 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:01:00 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmph. I guess we know who the Lyorn are around here... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm glad someone decided to compile these, (Thanks Mark!), since there are some good ones in there. Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 08:50 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sword Jokes. On 5/14/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > All right, this has gone far enough. > > I've collected the lot of 'em and put them up at > http://cracksandshards.com/swordjokes.txt > You left out this one, which I think worked rather well for the Athyra: http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/2006q2/002296.html I mean, as long as you're collecting them... From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 15 09:09:23 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:09:23 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Well, Steve's LJ mentioned he was doing page-proofs on it, > so there may be minor spelling/grammatical fixes. There was a minor factual typo in the preface, which I suspect got fixed (since I pointed it out fairly recently). > My guess is that it will probably be one of those larger-sized paperback > volumes, as well. All of the reprints so far have been trade PBs, so that seems like an obvious extrapolation. > > Oh, and I'll bet it will have new cover art. > The Amazon page gainsays thee. Although I think that whatever printing process they used brings out a little more detail in the picture. And it has a new subtitle as well, I see. "Brokedown Palace : A Tale From the East" From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 09:14:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:14:09 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060508212041.DD1CB4C276@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: "Shawn Burns" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/08/06 02:20 PM To cc Subject RE: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. >So it just occurred to me, after reading these and countless other sword >jokes, that we might be approaching them in the wrong way entirely, if one >of our purposes is to contribute jokes similar to the originals. For the >most part, we've been offering versions that elicit responses appropriate >for those already acquainted in some way with Dragaera and the Houses. There >have been some exceptions, but for the most part that is how they have run. >However, the brilliance (bright, shining, illumination) of the jokes already >written was that they were in fact out-jokes instead of in-jokes. They make >use of something everyone who is NOT Dragaeran would be familiar with or >would respond to in order to reveal something about the Houses instead of >playing on our knowledge of the House to make a funny. I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to make, here. ALL of these jokes, even Steve's, would be unfunny without the proper context of Dragaera. (Yendi: One to sharpen the sword and one to confuse the issue? Huh? What's a Yendi? Why is that funny? Dzur: One to sharpen the sword, three to make it worthwhile. Huh? Why would someone need three people to fight against?) Certainly, some of the jokes offered here are better or worse in regards to how easily they would be understood by a lay-person... And IMO, the better ones generally *are* the ones that are more readily understood. But I think we've seen examples of several of these in this thread... Like so many creative writing exercises, for every good joke, you're going to get 4 or 5 lame ones (if you're lucky). Hence, the process of editing out the boring or (let's face it) stupid jokes in favor of the more refined and/or punchy ones. I don't think this is a flaw in thinking--just a matter of getting from the brainstorming part of creation into the refining part. I understand that Steve spends time editing his books before he publishes them. Who knows how many lame sword jokes he went through on scratch paper before he found the three or four that we've seen in the books? There are probably piles and piles of pages that he's written that we'll never see--and believe me, we're probably much better off for it. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 09:19:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:19:50 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 09:09 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Brokedown Palace >> Oh, and I'll bet it will have new cover art. >> > >The Amazon page gainsays thee. Well, that was just a guess based on the fact that many of the other books have gotten new covers on re-release (Agyar, Gypsy, TRiH, etc). BP's cover pic was always pretty interesting, tho, so I don't have a problem with them reusing it--it's a generic city-scene, no lead characters represented, etc. Since artist's renditions of lead characters never quite meet my expectations, it's probably better this way. Majikjon --Not much of an artist himself, so not in any position to criticize. From howard at brazee.net Mon May 15 09:32:39 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:32:39 -0600 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. Message-ID: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> On 10:14 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to make, here. > > ALL of these jokes, even Steve's, would be unfunny without the proper > context of Dragaera. (Yendi: One to sharpen the sword and one to confuse > the issue? Huh? What's a Yendi? Why is that funny? Dzur: One to sharpen > the sword, three to make it worthwhile. Huh? Why would someone need > three people to fight against?) There are two ways to do these jokes: 1. "In" jokes that work with those of us who have read all of his works. 2. Jokes that enlighten those who have just started reading. While within this newsgroup, option #1 works, on the web site, #2 is better. Some jokes can be both #1 & #2. And Steve is much more likely to put in his own jokes when it advances the plot (enlightenment - or at least reminding us of a characteristic or contrast or prejudice at a particular moment in the plot). Hmmm. How about a couple of prejudiced jokes - where the race of the person telling the joke is important? Don't pick a house picked on by all, so much as rival houses. From howard at brazee.net Mon May 15 09:35:24 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:35:24 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace Message-ID: <4468ADCC.1000109@brazee.net> On 10:19 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Since artist's renditions of lead characters never quite meet my > expectations, it's probably better this way. How can they when Vlad and Loiosh have been described in detail to the readers, but not to the authors? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 09:43:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:43:03 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: <4468ADCC.1000109@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 09:35 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Brokedown Palace >On 10:19 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Since artist's renditions of lead characters never quite meet my >> expectations, it's probably better this way. > >How can they when Vlad and Loiosh have been described in detail to the >readers, but not to the authors? Er... I think you mean "artists"? I don't think Steve really needs anyone to describe Vlad or Loiosh to him... Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Mon May 15 09:49:26 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:49:26 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4468B116.2080509@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>How can they when Vlad and Loiosh have been described in detail to the >>readers, but not to the authors? > >Er... I think you mean "artists"? > > My bad. Of course, you're right about what I meant to write. >I don't think Steve really needs anyone to describe Vlad or Loiosh to >him... > > > You mean that little box that Vlad was talking into wasn't needed? From bryann at bryann.net Mon May 15 09:50:30 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:50:30 -0500 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060515042143.54524.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01c6783f$acd96940$6501a8c0@dell> > I've collected the lot of 'em and put them up at > http://cracksandshards.com/swordjokes.txt, with a link from > http://cracksandshards.com/jokes.html > > -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://filk.cracksandshards.com Very minor quibble under Vallista: ::::::::: Shawn Burns :::::::: Assume a spherical sword... ::::::::: Mark A. Mandel :::::::: How many Vallista does it take to sharpen a sword? Assume a spherical sword... ::::::::: Mark A. Mandel :::::::: Assume a linear sword of infinitesimal width and depth. It is already as sharp as is theoretically possible. QEF.* * Quod erat faciendum: 'Which was to be done.' I think you meant: ::::::::: Shawn Burns :::::::: Assume a spherical sword... ------- Mark A. Mandel Assume a linear sword of infinitesimal width and depth. It is already as sharp as is theoretically possible. QEF.* * Quod erat faciendum: 'Which was to be done.' And, by the way, thanks. I did not get the "assume a spherical..." line of jokes until you pointed out a sword is not a field... Bryan From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 09:49:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:49:59 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 09:32 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. >And Steve is much more likely to put in his own jokes when it advances >the plot (enlightenment - or at least reminding us of a characteristic >or contrast or prejudice at a particular moment in the plot). > >Hmmm. How about a couple of prejudiced jokes - where the race of the >person telling the joke is important? Don't pick a house picked on by >all, so much as rival houses. Such as: Dragon telling joke to another Dragon: How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? Three, one to sharpen the sword, and another to betray his House and murder the third. Jhereg telling joke to another Jhereg: How many Lyorn does it take to sharpen a sword? Two. The first has to remove it from the other's one's arse first. Majikjon Hmm... I'd say the first of these is definitely a #1, while the second may be a bit more of a #2. (No pun intended, here, really.) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 09:56:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Dragon telling joke to another Dragon: > > How many Jhereg does it take to sharpen a sword? > > Three, one to sharpen the sword, and another to betray his House and > murder the third. That's more like a joke told by another House about Dragons, showing they don't get that assassination is a way of life for the Jhereg. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 10:37:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:37:05 -0700 Subject: The Silver Box (WAS Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <4468B116.2080509@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 09:49 AM To cc "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Subject Re: Brokedown Palace >>I don't think Steve really needs anyone to describe Vlad or Loiosh to >>him... >> >You mean that little box that Vlad was talking into wasn't needed? Not if it had a video feed. Hmm... Makes me wonder, if the metal box really is a recorder of some kind, is Vlad able to play back what he's already recorded? Wouldn't this be kind of a sensational technology for a society that has no mundane means of recording sound? (Presumably, magical means do exist, tho I don't know of any direct textev for this...) Vlad could likely make a mint by leasing out his little metal box for parties at Castle Black. Majikjon (Shuddering at the thought of Dragons trying to do Karaoke...) From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon May 15 11:33:53 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:33:53 -0700 Subject: The Silver Box (WAS Re: Brokedown Palace) References: Message-ID: > cc > "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > Subject > Re: Brokedown Palace > > > > > > > >>I don't think Steve really needs anyone to describe Vlad or Loiosh to > >>him... > >> > >You mean that little box that Vlad was talking into wasn't needed? > > Not if it had a video feed. > > Hmm... Makes me wonder, if the metal box really is a recorder of some > kind, is Vlad able to play back what he's already recorded? > > Wouldn't this be kind of a sensational technology for a society that has > no mundane means of recording sound? (Presumably, magical means do exist, > tho I don't know of any direct textev for this...) > The Empress knew where Albyn was from by pulling up images from the Orb. Jeff -wondering if the Orb can download email too. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 11:46:29 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:46:29 -0700 Subject: The Silver Box (WAS Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 11:33 AM To cc Subject Re: The Silver Box (WAS Re: Brokedown Palace) >Jon Lincicum wrote: >> Hmm... Makes me wonder, if the metal box really is a recorder of some >> kind, is Vlad able to play back what he's already recorded? >> >> Wouldn't this be kind of a sensational technology for a society that has >> no mundane means of recording sound? (Presumably, magical means do exist, >> tho I don't know of any direct textev for this...) >> > >The Empress knew where Albyn was from by pulling up images from the Orb. > > >Jeff > >-wondering if the Orb can download email too. Yes, the Orb can record images, maps, "memories" etc. But is there any evidence of it recording or playing back *sounds*? I can't recall any--and even if it can, it is unclear if it could play them back for an audience. Majikjon --Some Athyra somewhere is working on a magical device to record minstrel music and allow a listener to play it back later. He can call it an "mPod". From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 15 12:11:51 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:11:51 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Well, that was just a guess based on the fact that many of the other books > have gotten new covers on re-release (Agyar, Gypsy, TRiH, etc). /The Gypsy/ has its original cover art, and so does /Cowboy Feng's/. But the other two do have very different covers, as does /The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars/. Apropos of Amazon, I see they have a new feature - a concordance (100 most common words), and text stats. For example, /The Gypsy/ has 97,036 words (9,035 words per dollar), and rates 79.7 on the Flesch Index (whatever that is - I suppose I could look it up). The most common word in the book appears to be "Stepovich" (497 times), although "gypsy" and "coachman" also appear to be rather common. /Agyar/ is notable for how bland all of the most common words are. In TRiH, "Satan" (490 times) beats "Yahweh" (461 times). Heh. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 12:21:44 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > For example, /The Gypsy/ has 97,036 words (9,035 words per dollar), > and rates 79.7 on the Flesch Index (whatever that is - I suppose I > could look it up). I'm going to guess it's a readability measure. Yep: http://www.gopdg.com/plainlanguage/readability.html "It measures reading from 100 (for easy to read) to 0 (for very difficult to read). A zero score indicates text has more than 37 words on the average in each sentence and the average word is more than 2 syllables. Flesch has identified a "65" as the Plain English Score. In response to demand, Flesch also provided an interpretation table to convert the scale to estimated reading grade and estimated school grade completed." From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 15 12:29:16 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:29:16 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 5/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Hmmm. How about a couple of prejudiced jokes - where the race of the > >person telling the joke is important? Don't pick a house picked on by > >all, so much as rival houses. > > > Jhereg telling joke to another Jhereg: > In /Yendi/, the sword jokes are mentioned as being told between Vlad and his secretary (Melestav, I think). I'd bet a cookie that it was Vlad who told the anti-Easterner joke ("Four: one to hold the sword and three to move the grindstone."), since prejudical humor is less offensive if the one telling the joke is of the ethnicity that the joke is about. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 12:43:35 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > since prejudical humor is less offensive if the one telling the joke is > of the ethnicity that the joke is about. Have there been any along the lines of "Dzur: How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? A.: It takes a village." There should also be a joke like, "Here's an old Dragon joke. A Dzur walks into a bar and asks the Jhereg behind the counter how many Teckla it takes to sharpen a sword. The bartender says, 'Well, I know this Yendi - well, I think he's a Yendi, and I think I know him, and he says that he once met a Chreotha using a Morganti broadsword to trim a loose thread from his shirtsleeve, and I asked him if it was sharp, and he told me ...'" Also, similarly, "Dragons say Dzur say that ... that Issola say that ... that X say that it takes foo Y to sharpen a sword, because bar", where each stage there's a comment on what the deeper stage finds funny. E.g., a Vallista might be fully in agreement that it takes a village, and a Hawk might find that funny, and a Jhereg might find it funny to say that to an Athyra... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 13:08:26 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Philip Hart wrote: > Also, similarly, "Dragons say Dzur say that ... that Issola say that ... > that X say that it takes foo Y to sharpen a sword, because bar", where > each stage there's a comment on what the deeper stage finds funny. > E.g., a Vallista might be fully in agreement that it takes a village, > and a Hawk might find that funny, and a Jhereg might find it funny > to say that to an Athyra... In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that joke, and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, without any fuss, go out. From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon May 15 14:16:58 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:16:58 -0400 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe there isn't a single use of the word vampire in the whole book. On 5/15/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 5/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Well, that was just a guess based on the fact that many of the other > books > > have gotten new covers on re-release (Agyar, Gypsy, TRiH, etc). > > /The Gypsy/ has its original cover art, and so does /Cowboy Feng's/. > But the other two do have very different covers, as does /The Sun, the > Moon, and the Stars/. > > Apropos of Amazon, I see they have a new feature - a concordance (100 > most common words), and text stats. > > For example, /The Gypsy/ has 97,036 words (9,035 words per dollar), > and rates 79.7 on the Flesch Index (whatever that is - I suppose I > could look it up). The most common word in the book appears to be > "Stepovich" (497 times), although "gypsy" and "coachman" also appear > to be rather common. > > /Agyar/ is notable for how bland all of the most common words are. > > In TRiH, "Satan" (490 times) beats "Yahweh" (461 times). Heh. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060515/6e5ce863/attachment.html From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 14:23:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:23:09 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: /Agyar/ is definitely one of my favorites... I was always amused by the fact that the only calendar date used in that entire book just happened to be my birthday. Majikjon "Louis Eastman" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 02:16 PM To "Davdi Silverrock" cc Dragaera List Subject Re: Brokedown Palace I believe there isn't a single use of the word vampire in the whole book. On 5/15/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 5/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > Well, that was just a guess based on the fact that many of the other > books > > have gotten new covers on re-release (Agyar, Gypsy, TRiH, etc). > > /The Gypsy/ has its original cover art, and so does /Cowboy Feng's/. > But the other two do have very different covers, as does /The Sun, the > Moon, and the Stars/. > > Apropos of Amazon, I see they have a new feature - a concordance (100 > most common words), and text stats. > > For example, /The Gypsy/ has 97,036 words (9,035 words per dollar), > and rates 79.7 on the Flesch Index (whatever that is - I suppose I > could look it up). The most common word in the book appears to be > "Stepovich" (497 times), although "gypsy" and "coachman" also appear > to be rather common. > > /Agyar/ is notable for how bland all of the most common words are. > > In TRiH, "Satan" (490 times) beats "Yahweh" (461 times). Heh. > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 14:26:26 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Spoilers, everybody. On Mon, 15 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > [...] is definitely one of my favorites... > > "Louis Eastman" > > I believe there isn't a single use of the word [...] in the whole book. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 15 14:34:11 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:34:11 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops. Sorry, didn't realize that was any kind of secret. Majikjon -Currently noting that book was published when he was in high school... Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 02:26 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Brokedown Palace Spoilers, everybody. On Mon, 15 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > [...] is definitely one of my favorites... > > "Louis Eastman" > > I believe there isn't a single use of the word [...] in the whole book. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon May 15 15:40:50 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:40:50 -0700 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> It's easy to get into the mind-set that everyone here has read all of SKZ's books. Not true, though. For instance, I've never read Agyar, though I've been familiar with "the twist" for quite a long time now thanks to spoilers on the list. I'm not resentful of it, mind, but I can say that knowing it ahead of time has probably contributed to my having not bothered to pick up the book. I'd say that any time there's a chance of something being a spoiler, that the safe thing to do is to assume that it is. -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 1:34 PM To: Philip Hart Cc: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace Whoops. Sorry, didn't realize that was any kind of secret. Majikjon -Currently noting that book was published when he was in high school... Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 02:26 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Brokedown Palace Spoilers, everybody. On Mon, 15 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > [...] is definitely one of my favorites... > > "Louis Eastman" > > I believe there isn't a single use of the word [...] in the whole book. From howard at brazee.net Mon May 15 17:57:13 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:57:13 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44692369.5020404@brazee.net> OK. There isn't a single use of the word [...] in _Freedom and Necessity_. Philip Hart wrote: >Spoilers, everybody. > >On Mon, 15 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > >>[...] is definitely one of my favorites... >> >>"Louis Eastman" >> >>I believe there isn't a single use of the word [...] in the whole book. >> >> > > > > > > From howard at brazee.net Mon May 15 18:00:39 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:00:39 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >It's easy to get into the mind-set that everyone here has read all of SKZ's >books. Not true, though. For instance, I've never read Agyar, though I've >been familiar with "the twist" for quite a long time now thanks to spoilers >on the list. I'm not resentful of it, mind, but I can say that knowing it >ahead of time has probably contributed to my having not bothered to pick up >the book. > >I'd say that any time there's a chance of something being a spoiler, that >the safe thing to do is to assume that it is. > > I don't see that it's a spoiler, at least not the kind that we read the whole book to discover. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon May 15 18:44:38 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060516014438.21853.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (warning, possible flamebait ahead >;-> ) --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>> Like so many creative writing exercises, for every good joke, you're going to get 4 or 5 lame ones (if you're lucky). Hence, the process of editing out the boring or (let's face it) stupid jokes in favor of the more refined and/or punchy ones. I don't think this is a flaw in thinking--just a matter of getting from the brainstorming part of creation into the refining part. I understand that Steve spends time editing his books before he publishes them. Who knows how many lame sword jokes he went through on scratch paper before he found the three or four that we've seen in the books? There are probably piles and piles of pages that he's written that we'll never see--and believe me, we're probably much better off for it. <<< As opposed to, say, Piers Anthony. -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From shawnb at stanford.edu Mon May 15 18:52:37 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:52:37 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060516014438.21853.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060516015304.40C68E9444@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Mark A. Mandel > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 6:45 PM > To: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com; Dragaera list > Subject: RE: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. > > (warning, possible flamebait ahead >;-> ) > > --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >>> > Like so many creative writing exercises, for every good joke, > you're going to get 4 or 5 lame ones (if you're lucky). > Hence, the process of editing out the boring or (let's face > it) stupid jokes in favor of the more refined and/or punchy > ones. I don't think this is a flaw in thinking--just a matter > of getting from the brainstorming part of creation into the > refining part. > > I understand that Steve spends time editing his books before > he publishes them. Who knows how many lame sword jokes he > went through on scratch paper before he found the three or > four that we've seen in the books? There are probably piles > and piles of pages that he's written that we'll never > see--and believe me, we're probably much better off for it. > <<< > > As opposed to, say, Piers Anthony. > Who doesn't even write his own lame jokes, much less edit out the lamer ones. From lincicum at comcast.net Mon May 15 18:53:53 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:53:53 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> Message-ID: <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > Scott Schultz wrote: > >> It's easy to get into the mind-set that everyone here has read all of >> SKZ's >> books. Not true, though. For instance, I've never read Agyar, though >> I've >> been familiar with "the twist" for quite a long time now thanks to >> spoilers >> on the list. I'm not resentful of it, mind, but I can say that >> knowing it >> ahead of time has probably contributed to my having not bothered to >> pick up >> the book. >> >> I'd say that any time there's a chance of something being a spoiler, >> that >> the safe thing to do is to assume that it is. >> >> > I don't see that it's a spoiler, at least not the kind that we read > the whole book to discover. In this case, It just never seemed like a mystery to me. It's kind of along the same lines as the movie /The Sixth Sense/. When I saw that film, it was fairly apparent to me after the first scene (where Bruce Willis' character is shot) that he probably died right there...And for the rest of the movie I was watching carefully for some proof that this wasn't the case.. Which, of course, doesn't come, since he's actually a ghost for the rest of the film. It surprised me later that other people had apparently not caught on to this until the very end of the movie. "But we saw him die in the opening scene!" "Yeah, but I thought he just got better somehow." Sheesh. It was the same way with /Agyar/. In the first chapter, he meets a lovely young girl (Jill) who's flirting with someone else, does some kind of psychic trickery and goes home with her and does... things. Obviously things are not being completely revealed, but by the end of two or three chapters, it should be pretty obvious what's going on... Did Steve really intend for the reader not to catch on to what he was doing until the very end? And if something is revealed during the exposition of the book, before the narrative hook, does it really count as a "spoiler"? Not that Steve's narrative hooks are always easy to spot. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Mon May 15 19:25:29 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:25:29 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <44693819.1020504@brazee.net> On 7:53 PM Jon Lincicum wrote: > It surprised me later that other people had apparently not caught on > to > this until the very end of the movie. > > "But we saw him die in the opening scene!" > "Yeah, but I thought he just got better somehow." Speaking of movies, what I find incredible is the people who didn't notice such things as the way too large device in Arnold Schwarzenegger's nose in _Total Recall_. I thought that the mistake was making things too obvious - but apparently it wasn't obvious enough. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 20:06:11 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > It was the same way with /Agyar/. In the first chapter, [...] but by > the end of two or three chapters, it should be pretty obvious what's > going on... Some people would prefer to spend those two or three chapters coming to their own conclusion. Furthermore, perhaps at the end of another few chapters you would have found out what's going on is not X but Y. > Did Steve really intend for the reader not to catch on to what he was > doing until the very end? Part of your problem here is not quite understanding what a spoiler is - "info about a final twist" is overspecific. If I were to travel back in time from this fall and force you to hear the entire plot of _Dzur_ this evening - for example that beloved character Z is permanently killed at the end of chapter 3 - would you not be unhappy? And again, SKZB clearly made a choice not to blatantly present a bit of info in the text and has I believe praised the back-cover precis writer for not revealing it. Bandying about that info is disrespectful to Him and to His audience. From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon May 15 20:13:47 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <003e01c6783f$acd96940$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20060516031347.25492.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Newell wrote: > Very minor quibble under Vallista: [...] > > I think you meant: > > > ::::::::: Shawn Burns :::::::: > Assume a spherical sword... > ------- Mark A. Mandel > Assume a linear sword of infinitesimal width and depth. It is already as > sharp as is theoretically possible. QEF.* > > * Quod erat faciendum: 'Which was to be done.' Ah, thank you. I'm fixing it. Although not quite the way you suggest, since I'm trying to give each joke that can (more or less) stand on its own a separate "::::" header, using the tab and row of hyphens only for discussions about the joke above them. So it'll be like this: ::::::::: Shawn Burns :::::::: Assume a spherical sword... --------Mark A. Mandel But a sword is not a field. ::::::::: Mark A. Mandel :::::::: Assume a linear sword of infinitesimal width and depth. It is already as sharp as is theoretically possible. QEF.* * Quod erat faciendum: 'Which was to be done.' m a m > > > And, by the way, thanks. I did not get the "assume a spherical..." line > of jokes until you pointed out a sword is not a field... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon May 15 20:17:21 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060516031721.77779.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > Mon, 15 May 2006, Philip Hart wrote: > > > Also, similarly, "Dragons say Dzur say that ... that Issola say that > ... > > to say that to an Athyra... > > > In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that joke, > and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, without any > fuss, go out. APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! APP __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Mon May 15 20:34:48 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Silver Box (WAS Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060516033448.64685.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > >The Empress knew where Albyn was from by pulling up images from the > Orb. > > > >Jeff Minor quibble: that's "Aibynn". See http://cracksandshards.com/names.html#Aibynn -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lincicum at comcast.net Mon May 15 21:19:59 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:19:59 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Did Steve really intend for the reader not to catch on to what he was >> doing until the very end? >> > > Part of your problem here is not quite understanding what a spoiler is - > "info about a final twist" is overspecific. If I were to travel back in > time from this fall and force you to hear the entire plot of _Dzur_ this > evening - for example that beloved character Z is permanently killed at > the end of chapter 3 - would you not be unhappy? > This is not at all what was happening here. I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". You said, '"info about a final twist" is overspecific', and I tend to agree with this assessment. By the same token, saying a spoiler is "any information about any of the characters, plot, or setting of a story" I would consider overly broad. "Giving away" extremely general facts about a story that do not impinge on any of the major plot twists or character developments doesn't really earn a "spoiler" tag in my view. For example: Saying "Master and Commander" is about sailing ships in the early 19th century I would not consider a spoiler. Saying Star Wars is about rebels fighting an Evil Galactic Empire I would not consider a spoiler. Saying "Citizen Kane" is about the life of someone resembling William Randolph Hearst I would not consider a spoiler. Saying /Agyar/ is about [...] falls into the same category. It may be a very slight giveaway, but I have trouble believing anyone who's read very much of this list would be surprised by it. The book is 13 years old, for goodness sake. This "spoiler" also in no way detracts from the more important character developments and "twists" that make that book a very good read. If I were giving away that X is really X's father, or X gets frozen in carbonite, or Rosebud is really X, then I'd agree with you. > And again, SKZB clearly made a choice not to blatantly present a bit of > info in the text and has I believe praised the back-cover precis writer > for not revealing it. Bandying about that info is disrespectful to Him > and to His audience. > In general I very much support the use of spoiler warning tags, and in future I will be careful to do so in regards to this specific bit of info. (For the record, I'm not even the one who introduced the V-word into the conversation, but I certainly could have edited it out of the quoted text of my reply, if I'd honestly thought it would annoy anyone.) I think my point here is that it's very difficult to discuss topics that come up in any of these books if anytime anything is revealed, even extremely general information that is widely known by the readers of the list, we have to stop and shout WARNING!!! SPOILER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! in the event that one or two folks might have missed something. People would not be subscribing to this list if they didn't expect at least some slippage of plot points. At some point you just have to draw the line. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 15 22:13:24 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 22:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >> Did Steve really intend for the reader not to catch on to what he was > >> doing until the very end? > >> > > > > Part of your problem here is not quite understanding what a spoiler is - > > "info about a final twist" is overspecific. If I were to travel back in > > time from this fall and force you to hear the entire plot of _Dzur_ this > > evening - for example that beloved character Z is permanently killed at > > the end of chapter 3 - would you not be unhappy? > > > This is not at all what was happening here. > > I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". I don't choose how to define things - that's done by people who use the language and by dictionary writers. You can choose to ignore part of the common definition if you like. > Saying "Master and Commander" is about sailing ships in the early 19th > century I would not consider a spoiler. Well, the picture of a 19th C sailing ship or two on the cover, and the diagram of such a ship in the front matter, and the description on the back, rather give the issue away. A rather fairer analogy would be to say the book is about X, who has characteristics C on land but turns out to have traits T at sea, and Y, who is an M and an N and also as it turns out an O. And that would only be a somewhat reasonable comparison if O'Brian had studiously avoided any character mentioning N and made this avoidance something of a organizational principle. > [question-begging snipped] I have trouble believing anyone who's read > very much of this list would be surprised by it. Even if true, which I quite doubt, that's no reason to make it a policy that every new reader should get spoiled whether they like it or not. > [more question-begging snipped] > At some point you just have to draw the line. Yes, the line has been drawn, in much the same place, a number of times. I don't know why it's not in a faq, but as I recall there is a clear consensus that this particular bit of info should get a spoiler warning, along with the two important bits of info at the end of _O_, and all discussion of new Works until a few weeks after the ppb edition. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue May 16 03:19:07 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 06:19:07 -0400 Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> Message-ID: It is on the back of the book. I don't consider that a spoiler. On 5/15/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > Scott Schultz wrote: > > >It's easy to get into the mind-set that everyone here has read all of > SKZ's > >books. Not true, though. For instance, I've never read Agyar, though I've > >been familiar with "the twist" for quite a long time now thanks to > spoilers > >on the list. I'm not resentful of it, mind, but I can say that knowing it > >ahead of time has probably contributed to my having not bothered to pick > up > >the book. > > > >I'd say that any time there's a chance of something being a spoiler, that > >the safe thing to do is to assume that it is. > > > > > I don't see that it's a spoiler, at least not the kind that we read the > whole book to discover. > From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue May 16 04:18:32 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:18:32 -0400 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Mon, 15 May 2006, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >>Also, similarly, "Dragons say Dzur say that ... that Issola say that ... >>that X say that it takes foo Y to sharpen a sword, because bar", where >>each stage there's a comment on what the deeper stage finds funny. >>E.g., a Vallista might be fully in agreement that it takes a village, >>and a Hawk might find that funny, and a Jhereg might find it funny >>to say that to an Athyra... >> >> > > >In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that joke, >and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, without any >fuss, go out. > > > Only if it is told 9 billion times, with 9 billion variations. Snarkhunter From howard at brazee.net Tue May 16 04:47:42 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 05:47:42 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <4469BBDE.2090507@brazee.net> On 5/15/2006 11:13 PM Philip Hart wrote: > >I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". > > > I don't choose how to define things - that's done by people who use > the > language and by dictionary writers. You can choose to ignore part of > the > common definition if you like. So show us how their definition makes the basic of _Agyar_ a spoiler. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 06:34:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 06:34:59 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <44693819.1020504@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 07:25 PM To cc 'Dragaera List' Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >Speaking of movies, what I find incredible is the people who didn't >notice such things as the way too large device in Arnold >Schwarzenegger's nose in _Total Recall_. I thought that the mistake >was making things too obvious - but apparently it wasn't obvious enough. Sorry, I don't watch movies starring immigrants, as I feel they're contributing to the downfall of our clean, wholesome society--especially in California. Jeesh. Somebody should write the governor. Majikjon From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue May 16 06:36:26 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:36:26 -0400 Subject: spoilers in general (was the Agyar conversation) In-Reply-To: References: <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060516092837.00bd08c8@camail.harvard.edu> > > Saying "Master and Commander" is about sailing ships in the early 19th > > century I would not consider a spoiler. > >Well, the picture of a 19th C sailing ship or two on the cover, and the >diagram of such a ship in the front matter, and the description on the >back, rather give the issue away. > >A rather fairer analogy would be to say the book is about X, who has >characteristics C on land but turns out to have traits T at sea, and Y, >who is an M and an N and also as it turns out an O. Hmmmm.... I've never read the book or seen the movie and now I'm intrigued. Charley Sumner "In my fantasy world, we have pie." Satchel Pooch - "Get Fuzzy" From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 07:05:29 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:05:29 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 10:13 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> This is not at all what was happening here. >> >> I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". > >I don't choose how to define things - that's done by people who use the >language and by dictionary writers. You can choose to ignore part of the >common definition if you like. Well, if you won't even agree on terms, I don't see how we can have any meaningful discussion about anything. I'm willing to listen to whatever your so-called "common definition" is, if you have one to offer. >> Saying "Master and Commander" is about sailing ships in the early 19th >> century I would not consider a spoiler. > >Well, the picture of a 19th C sailing ship or two on the cover, and the >diagram of such a ship in the front matter, and the description on the >back, rather give the issue away. And the picture of the rather goth-looking figure with giant teeth on the front cover of /Agyar/ doesn't do the same? As a further example, here is the verbatim text from the reverse cover of /Agyar/: "Born over a century ago, Agyar was once a frivolous young man, before he found unwanted immortality in a woman's blood-red lips. Now he goes from woman to woman, and decade to decade, finding himself at last in a Midwestern college town, where he must choose between the seductions of salvation--and of destruction." "...unwanted immortality in a woman's blood-red lips..." and there is some mystery here about what's going on? Maybe if you've lived your life in a box. >> [question-begging snipped] I have trouble believing anyone who's read >> very much of this list would be surprised by it. > >Even if true, which I quite doubt, that's no reason to make it a policy >that every new reader should get spoiled whether they like it or not. My point being that they wouldn't be here if they didn't expect to talk (and hear) about at least extremely obvious topics from SKZBs books. If someone really needs that level of "spoilage" protection, they probably shouldn't be here. >> [more question-begging snipped] >> At some point you just have to draw the line. >Yes, the line has been drawn, in much the same place, a number of times. >I don't know why it's not in a faq, but as I recall there is a clear >consensus that this particular bit of info should get a spoiler warning, >along with the two important bits of info at the end of _O_, and all >discussion of new Works until a few weeks after the ppb edition. Well, I've only been reading the list for a year or so, so I suppose I'll have to take your word on that. As stated, I do intend to spoiler said info in future... But if you want to be consistent with this, you really ought to consider placing the following tag on any of your messages that involve words such as "Vlad", "Loiosh", "Cawti", "Kragar", "Noish-Pa", "Sethra", "Lavode" (et al.): WARNING! SPOILERS FOR Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, Taltos, Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, Issola, Dragon, Dzur, and possibly others! Begin text... Majikjon -After all, we wouldn't want to reveal anything that someone might not already know about. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 07:17:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:17:53 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060516014438.21853.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 06:44 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com, Dragaera list cc Subject RE: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. >(warning, possible flamebait ahead >;-> ) > >--- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >>before he found the three or four that we've seen in the books? There are >>probably piles and piles of pages that he's written that we'll never >>see--and believe me, we're probably much better off for it. >><<< > >As opposed to, say, Piers Anthony. Oh, come now! There's a place in this world for books written to appease the mentality of 6th graders. (On the shelves of the elementary school library, for example...) His primary difficulty is in knowing when to let a series die. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 07:20:24 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:20:24 -0700 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/15/06 12:29 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. >and three to move the grindstone."), since prejudical humor is less >offensive if the one telling the joke is of the ethnicity that the >joke is about. Suddenly the success of both Dave Chappelle and Carlos Mencia makes a lot more sense... Majikjon From attjen at gwu.edu Tue May 16 07:34:55 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:34:55 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: I've enjoyed some of those posted probably too much for what they deserve. Here is my meager contribution: How many Tiassa does it take to sharpen a sword? -Please... around a Tiassa nothing is ever dull From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 16 08:13:18 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brokedown Palace In-Reply-To: References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006, Louis Eastman wrote: > It is on the back of the book. I don't consider that a spoiler. Hmm, the (to my eye notably skillful) front cover art now shows a guy with a rather toothy grin. And the back cover is now as you describe. Perhaps you have a good point. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue May 16 08:12:10 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:12:10 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <26df01c678fb$1ab805f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> It's not a huge deal. We discuss all of SKZB's books on this list and you really can't discuss much about Agyar without acknowledging the fact that it's a vampire story. I DID have the impression that it was supposed to be non-obvious and I don't remember it being spelled out that clearly on the cover blurb. Makes me wonder if there's been a change between printings. Anyway, the point is simply that even though all of us are familiar with some of SKZB's work, it doesn't follow that we're all familiar with ALL of his work. Every couple of months a newbie joins the list who's just discovered one of the Jhereg books and is looking for other SKZB recommendations to try out. Just because Agyar or Cowboy Feng's or even Jhereg have been in print for over a decade, it doesn't remove the responsibility we have as list members to keep the literary experience as "pristine" as we reasonably can for our fellow list members. Emphasis on the word "reasonably". It doesn't mean stifle every bit of discussion. Someone just starting on Jhereg might be utterly dismayed to find out the events of Teckla/Phoenix beforehand, but as a list we need to discuss those things in order to hold a discussion on Dzur. On the other hand, I think most of us respect the spoilers in Orca, even though the book is several years old at this point and pretty much everyone on the list has read it. The Agyar spoiler was, so I thought, along those lines. If it's being pretty much printed on the cover blurb these days, then that's apparently an incorrect impression. In any case, rather than argue semantics or degrees of "spoilerage", just ask yourself if it would be a surprise at all to someone who hadn't yet read the book. If so, then consider treating it as a spoiler out of deference to those people. In the case of Agyar, if it's being pretty much spelled out on the back cover then it's not really a spoiler any more, no matter what SKZB's intentions might have been. Oh, and I'd never seen _The Sixth Sense_, either. ;-) From scott at cjhunter.com Tue May 16 08:17:48 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:17:48 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <26df01c678fb$1ab805f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <26eb01c678fb$e4089550$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Oh, and I'd never seen _The Sixth Sense_, either. ;-) Never mind this one. I'd gotten caught up in the Agyar discussion and didn't notice that it was marked for spoilage on the Sixth Sense too. *heh* From mneme at io.com Tue May 16 08:47:19 2006 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:47:19 -0500 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17513.62471.217126.79165@fnord.io.com> Jon Lincicum writes: >I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". This is true. If it's rude (like, say, revealing what's up with Agyar), it's a spoiler. If a reasonable person would consider it a spoiler, it's a spoiler. >Saying /Agyar/ is about [...] falls into the same category. No, it does not, says the reasonable man. I've accidentally spoiled Agyar (in person) and been justly chastised about it. >At some point you just have to draw the line. Of course. A lot of this is context -- given the nature of this list, you need to reveal a lot more about Dragaera for it to be a spoiler ([orca], yes, or even some of the eventsi n Isola...but still, more). OTOH, one need not have an aquaintence with Agyar to participate meaningfully on this list, so it's polite to be forbearing on that subject. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Did you know, if you increment enough, you /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ get an extra digit?" "I knew," weeps Six. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ "We knew. But we had forgotten." '---''(_/--' (_/-' From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 16 08:49:05 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> This is not at all what was happening here. > >> > >> I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". > > > >I don't choose how to define things - that's done by people who use the > >language and by dictionary writers. You can choose to ignore part of the > >common definition if you like. > > Well, if you won't even agree on terms, I don't see how we can have any > meaningful discussion about anything. > > I'm willing to listen to whatever your so-called "common definition" is, > if you have one to offer. I already described what a spoiler is. What happened was that you, not understanding what a spoiler is (i.e. info of type X, implying info of types X', X'', or X''''), said it was info of type X''''. I explained the difference. > And the picture of the rather goth-looking figure with giant teeth on the > front cover of /Agyar/ doesn't do the same? That's new, and in fact a reasonable argument in favor of not protecting the info. > My point being that they wouldn't be here if they didn't expect to talk > (and hear) about at least extremely obvious topics from SKZBs books. If > someone really needs that level of "spoilage" protection, they probably > shouldn't be here. Again, after discussion the community decided something else. You have every right to disagree with us and with SKZB, just as you are free to wear plaid pants, a striped shirt, and a polka-dotted tie, or go jump in a lake. And note the name of this list. I haven't read _Gypsy_ or _Cowboy Feng's_ yet, and I've gotten stuck early in _F&N_ twice now, and I appreciate the fact that I can read this list without inadvertently coming across the Cliff's Notes versions of their plots. > >there is a clear consensus that this particular bit of info should get > >a spoiler warning, along with the two important bits of info at the end > >of _O_, and all discussion of new Works until a few weeks after the ppb > >edition. > > But if you Note that you're addressing the entire list here. > want to be consistent with this, you really ought to consider Do you not understand that having had a discussion and having arrived at a consensus means we have considered the issue? Or perhaps you don't understand that public policies require the balancing of various interests and typically require setting rules that somewhat arbitrarily split the difference? From howard at brazee.net Tue May 16 08:56:52 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:56:52 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <4469F644.1060002@brazee.net> On 9:47 AM Joshua Kronengold wrote: > If a reasonable person would consider it a spoiler, it's a spoiler. Oh, I think we're all agreed in that. Sort of. Since I don't think it's a spoiler, I will modify it to say: "If a reasonable person would not consider it a spoiler, it's not a spoiler". > >>Saying /Agyar/ is about [...] falls into the same category. > > > No, it does not, says the reasonable man. (Not having kept the old messages, I may be mistaken on what category is being referred to, I will say:) Yes, it does, says the reasonable man. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 08:58:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:58:18 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <26df01c678fb$1ab805f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/16/06 08:12 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >It's not a huge deal. We discuss all of SKZB's books on this list and you >really can't discuss much about Agyar without acknowledging the fact that >it's a vampire story. I DID have the impression that it was supposed to be >non-obvious and I don't remember it being spelled out that clearly on the >cover blurb. Makes me wonder if there's been a change between printings. > >Anyway, the point is simply that even though all of us are familiar with >some of SKZB's work, it doesn't follow that we're all familiar with ALL of >his work. Every couple of months a newbie joins the list who's just >discovered one of the Jhereg books and is looking for other SKZB >recommendations to try out. Just because Agyar or Cowboy Feng's or even >Jhereg have been in print for over a decade, it doesn't remove the >responsibility we have as list members to keep the literary experience as >"pristine" as we reasonably can for our fellow list members. Emphasis on the >word "reasonably". >It doesn't mean stifle every bit of discussion. Someone just starting on >Jhereg might be utterly dismayed to find out the events of Teckla/Phoenix >beforehand, but as a list we need to discuss those things in order to hold a >discussion on Dzur. On the other hand, I think most of us respect the >spoilers in Orca, even though the book is several years old at this point >and pretty much everyone on the list has read it. The Agyar spoiler was, so >I thought, along those lines. If it's being pretty much printed on the cover >blurb these days, then that's apparently an incorrect impression. I have no problems with this approach, I fully support reasonable spoiler warnings. Given how key (and specific) the /Orca/ revelations are (and how many books and stories there are before these facts are revealed) I can understand keeping them in a "spoiler" status pretty much indefinitely. The /Agyar/ premise just never struck me as something that was in even remotely the same category. As a relative newbie myself, (at least compared to most of the regular contributors), I never really felt the need to dig too deeply into the list history to see which topics had been agreed to as "taboo" or "spoiler-worthy". (The FAQ, such as it is, makes no mention of spoiler ettiquette that I could find.) Perhaps I missed something? Or else there is an opportunity here to improve the guidelines for such things in a visible place to avoid arguments over what makes a spoiler, or appropriate ways to mark such things? >Oh, and I'd never seen _The Sixth Sense_, either. ;-) Yeah, hence the spoiler notice in the subject line... :-) (It's a decent flick. Even figuring out the "big secret" in that movie doesn't ruin it (or didn't for me, anyway; but there I go, generalizing from one example again.) In fact, it makes it easier to appreciate the various ways in which they try to hide what's really going on from you... And I'm not even a big M. Night Shyamalan fan...) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 09:08:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:08:48 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/16/06 08:49 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >And note the name of this list. I haven't read _Gypsy_ or _Cowboy Feng's_ >yet, and I've gotten stuck early in _F&N_ twice now, and I appreciate the >fact that I can read this list without inadvertently coming across the >Cliff's Notes versions of their plots. I don't really think our concept of what makes a spoiler is all that different. We've just been of a different opinion as to whether or not the specific /Agyar/ premise was, in fact, a spoiler or not. On reflection, I can certainly appreciate that information regarding non-Dragaera works needs much closer scrutiny than the Dragaera works (this being a Dragaera-centric list) than the other books (I've gotten bogged down in F&N myself at this point, have barely touched Cowboy Feng's, and don't even own a copy of S, M, & S, so I can certainly relate.) Majikjon And I still think there's maybe a need for a FAQ or something to help newbies (not just myself, but it certainly would have helped) avoid such missteps. Otherwise, new contributors will be discouraged from posting, for fear of breaking some unclear taboo. Just my $0.02. From howard at brazee.net Tue May 16 09:09:40 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:09:40 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <4469F944.1020005@brazee.net> On 9:58 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >>Oh, and I'd never seen _The Sixth Sense_, either. ;-) > > > Yeah, hence the spoiler notice in the subject line... :-) > > (It's a decent flick. Even figuring out the "big secret" in that > movie > doesn't ruin it (or didn't for me, anyway; but there I go, > generalizing > from one example again.) In fact, it makes it easier to appreciate > the > various ways in which they try to hide what's really going on from > you... > And I'm not even a big M. Night Shyamalan fan...) There's a spoiler in _Crying Game_, which actually makes the movie worth watching again - it's a different movie with the spoiler. But when a book waits a chapter to show us that the narrator is a detective or a thief or a space ship jockey or a vampire or a politician or an assassin, it's not a spoiler. From howard at brazee.net Tue May 16 09:19:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:19:57 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <4469FBAD.9090807@brazee.net> On 10:08 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > On reflection, I can certainly appreciate that information regarding > non-Dragaera works needs much closer scrutiny than the Dragaera works > (this being a Dragaera-centric list) than the other books (I've > gotten > bogged down in F&N myself at this point, have barely touched Cowboy > Feng's, and don't even own a copy of S, M, & S, so I can certainly > relate.) The protagonist in _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ is an ******. // // From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue May 16 09:24:47 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:24:47 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: <26df01c678fb$1ab805f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605160924u7c982e78w28783bf0b30ea2a4@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Given how key (and specific) the /Orca/ revelations are (and how many > books and stories there are before these facts are revealed) I can > understand keeping them in a "spoiler" status pretty much indefinitely. Agreed, as to the Greater Revelation. Even post-Orca, Vlad maintains the secrecy well enough that you're not likely to catch on (Third-floor Relic?) unless you already know the secret. IMHO, it's more than just a "spoiler," it's a shared conspiracy between us and Vlad and X. I'm not so sure about the Lesser Revelation. If the series goes on long enough, the plot could conceivably develop in such a way that it's not possible to discuss the story without discussing the Lesser Revelation, and at that point I think spoiler protection would take a back seat. This would be the case if, for example, three books from now, X becomes a major character on par with Aliera and Morrolan (not that they'd ever admit it). Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue May 16 09:28:17 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:28:17 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0605160924u7c982e78w28783bf0b30ea2a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <26df01c678fb$1ab805f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <2ddbda5f0605160924u7c982e78w28783bf0b30ea2a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605160928x7b23da74t918992768b8ca013@mail.gmail.com> [Orca Spoiler] . . . . . . . . . . . . . Speaking of which, I love that bit in Dragon where Aliera suggests that they "hire a thief and be done with it." "For one thing," said Sethra, "we don't know any thieves." "Vlad can put us in touch with one." Heh. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 09:28:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:28:59 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <4469FBAD.9090807@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/16/06 09:19 AM To cc "'Dragaera List'" Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >On 10:08 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> On reflection, I can certainly appreciate that information regarding >> non-Dragaera works needs much closer scrutiny than the Dragaera works >> (this being a Dragaera-centric list) than the other books (I've >> gotten >> bogged down in F&N myself at this point, have barely touched Cowboy >> Feng's, and don't even own a copy of S, M, & S, so I can certainly >> relate.) > > >The protagonist in _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_ is an ******. Yes, but aren't we all, really? Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue May 16 09:29:48 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:29:48 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) References: <4469FBAD.9090807@brazee.net> Message-ID: Man: Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please. Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before? Man: No, I haven't, this is my first time. Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course? Man: Well, what is the cost? Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten. Man: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes. Receptionist: Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment. Pause Receptionist: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12. Man: Thank you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 16 09:53:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > > >And note the name of this list. I haven't read _Gypsy_ or _Cowboy Feng's_ > >yet, and I've gotten stuck early in _F&N_ twice now, and I appreciate the > >fact that I can read this list without inadvertently coming across the > >Cliff's Notes versions of their plots. > > I don't really think our concept of what makes a spoiler is all that > different. We've just been of a different opinion as to whether or not the > specific /Agyar/ premise was, in fact, a spoiler or not. > > On reflection, I can certainly appreciate that information regarding > non-Dragaera works needs much closer scrutiny than the Dragaera works > (this being a Dragaera-centric list) than the other books (I've gotten > bogged down in F&N myself at this point, have barely touched Cowboy > Feng's, and don't even own a copy of S, M, & S, so I can certainly > relate.) > > Majikjon > > And I still think there's maybe a need for a FAQ or something to help > newbies (not just myself, but it certainly would have helped) avoid such > missteps. Otherwise, new contributors will be discouraged from posting, > for fear of breaking some unclear taboo. Just my $0.02. I find the above entirely reasonable. Faq topics: spoiler warnings, the subj line consensus, the off-topic consensus, how to search the archives (and book search, and Amazon), Mark's page and Alexx's timeline and the other important URLs... From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue May 16 10:07:00 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:07:00 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605161007n42591sc5f218a96f338a5e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/06, Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 15 May 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > I suppose this really gets into how you choose to define "spoiler". > > I don't choose how to define things - that's done by people who use the > language and by dictionary writers. You can choose to ignore part of the > common definition if you like. Well, here's one definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_(media) "A spoiler is a summary or description of a narrative (or part of a narrative) that relates plot elements not revealed early in the narrative itself." Revealing the fact that Z gets brutally murdered in the third chapter of /Dzur/ is only a spoiler because it's not "early in the narrative" of the series as a whole. This probably makes the Agyar thing a non-spoiler. Of course, I've never read it. > Yes, the line has been drawn, in much the same place, a number of times. > I don't know why it's not in a faq, but as I recall there is a clear > consensus that this particular bit of info should get a spoiler warning, > along with the two important bits of info at the end of _O_, and all > discussion of new Works until a few weeks after the ppb edition. Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 10:32:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:32:03 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/16/06 09:53 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >On Tue, 16 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> And I still think there's maybe a need for a FAQ or something to help >> newbies (not just myself, but it certainly would have helped) avoid such >> missteps. Otherwise, new contributors will be discouraged from posting, >> for fear of breaking some unclear taboo. Just my $0.02. > >I find the above entirely reasonable. > >Faq topics: spoiler warnings, the subj line consensus, the off-topic >consensus, how to search the archives (and book search, and Amazon), >Mark's page and Alexx's timeline and the other important URLs... ...such as the wikicity? (With massive spoiler warnings, since they are basically a given there...) I can probably start work on a draft for such a document, unless someone else feels the urge (or is better qualified) to do so. Any input would be appreciated. Majikjon From corwin at mpls.cx Tue May 16 10:42:49 2006 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:42:49 -0500 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <446A0F19.6040403@mpls.cx> Philip Hart wrote, in part: > [...] I've gotten stuck early in _F&N_ twice now, and I appreciate the > fact that I can read this list without inadvertently coming across the > Cliff's Notes versions of their plots. > Says me, and FWIW: F&N was one of the few (two?) books I've had the chance to read in the Scribblies-Tor interregnum and I didn't make it past page fifty --or so-- 'till I gave it a shot rather more recently. I'm having trouble thinking of any /other/ reason for comparing them, but I also had that trouble with _Lord of Light_, about which enough good cannot be said. Somewhere I discovered I had gone from searching for things of interest to unable to set it down. From corwin at mpls.cx Tue May 16 11:03:58 2006 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:03:58 -0500 Subject: FAQ and meta-dragaera-L (was: Agyar...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <446A140E.5050807@mpls.cx> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote, in part: > Philip Hart > > >> Faq topics: spoiler warnings, the subj line consensus, the off-topic >> consensus, how to search the archives (and book search, and Amazon), >> Mark's page and Alexx's timeline and the other important URLs... >> [...] > I can probably start work on a draft for such a document, unless someone > else feels the urge (or is better qualified) to do so. > > Any input would be appreciated. > I can post such a thing. My inclinations are to add "Querying Questions" --or words of similar affect-- at FAQ[1] or make an addendum to RULES[2]. [1]http://drageara.info/faq [2]http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/dragaera-list/rules.html From corwin at mpls.cx Tue May 16 11:19:30 2006 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:19:30 -0500 Subject: Spoiling Agyar (was: Agyar?/...) In-Reply-To: <17513.62471.217126.79165@fnord.io.com> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> <17513.62471.217126.79165@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <446A17B2.40307@mpls.cx> Joshua Kronengold wrote, in part: > I've accidentally spoiled Agyar (in person) and been justly chastised > about it. > I also. On May 15th, 2006 Louis Eastman wrote, in part: > I believe there isn't a single use of the word vampire in the whole book. All of which has lead me to the conclusion that _Agyar_ is a challenge to talk about with people who haven't read it. From pulmon at mac.com Tue May 16 12:09:45 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:09:45 -0400 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060516014438.21853.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060516014438.21853.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7C9513CE-26DB-4A04-BC4F-8E8D7B2335AA@mac.com> On May 15, 2006, at 9:44 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > (warning, possible flamebait ahead >;-> ) > > --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > <<< > > As opposed to, say, Piers Anthony. > > -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards > http://www.cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust fan website who always leaves me punch-drunk From pulmon at mac.com Tue May 16 12:12:42 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:12:42 -0400 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: >> In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that joke, >> and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, >> without any >> fuss, go out. >> >> > Only if it is told 9 billion times, with 9 billion variations. > > Snarkhunter And I thought no other living person had read that one... From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Tue May 16 11:54:49 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:54:49 -0500 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4468AD27.6000108@brazee.net> <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <446A1FF9.3060408@comcast.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> > And I thought no other living person had read that one... Are you kidding? It's one of the great classics. At least, to *my* generation . . . > > From howard at brazee.net Tue May 16 12:19:39 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:19:39 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <446A25CB.9050601@brazee.net> On 11:42 AM Corwin Brust wrote: > but I also had that > trouble with _Lord of Light_, about which enough good cannot be said. It's intersting seeing you talk about Zelazny. How did you feel reading the Amber series? From carpovita at earthlink.net Tue May 16 12:23:17 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:23:17 -0600 Subject: Dragaeran feast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <019c01c6791e$2fd277e0$6600a8c0@Carpovita> A quick clarification on the Dragaeran Feast at Opus this weekend - The price will be $30 and their are only 18 seats left. Description of said event is below: Valabar's It is a very simple place on the inside, with white linen tablecloths and simple furnishings, but none of the decoration that most places have. The waiters are pleasant and charming and very efficient, and almost as difficult to notice as Kragar when they are slipping up on you to refill your wine glass. -- Taltos The feast: ("Barackaranybol" -- Taltos & red wine served throughout the meal) Hors d'oeuvre The pate - made of goose liver, chicken liver, kethna liver, herbs, and unsalted butter - was served on hard-crusted bread with cucumber slices that had been just barely pickled. -- Taltos Fresh scallops in lemon and garlic sauce -- Taltos Salad Tossed baby spinach with water-chestnuts, shredded carrots and baby shrimp drizzled in a horseradish dressing. Soup Bowl of fish soup -- Orca Main Course At that point our pepper sausages showed up. Laris - and Loiosh - were right; it was very good. They served it with green rice covered with cheese sauce. -- Yendi Kragar's date had the biggest stuffed cabbage in the world. -- Taltos Mara had duck in plum brandy sauce. -- Taltos Dessert The sorbet was lemon -- Taltos We followed it with dessert pancakes, mine with finely ground walnuts and cream chocolate brandy sauce topped with oranges. -- Taltos After Dinner Klava - You press coffee through a filter made of eggshells and wood chips with vanilla bean, then reheat it so it almost boils, then you pass it through a cloth to remove any oils brought out by the reheating. -- Issola Various pastries From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue May 16 13:44:24 2006 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:44:24 -0400 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: References: <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <446A0168.23014.19246F8@localhost> On 16 May 2006 at 15:12, Kenneth Gorelick wrote > >> In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that > >> joke, and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, > >> without any fuss, go out. > >> > >> > > Only if it is told 9 billion times, with 9 billion variations. > > > > Snarkhunter > And I thought no other living person had read that one... Were we not supposed to get the reference? I've always been comforted by the fact that people on this list get these references. Makes me feel like all the time I spent reading SF classics wasn't wasted (or, at least, that I'm not the only one who so wasted time). M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue May 16 13:48:28 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:48:28 +0100 Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <446A1FF9.3060408@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060516204830.WTJC16086.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Mia McDavid Sent: 16 May 2006 19:55 To: Kenneth Gorelick Cc: Dragaera List Subject: Re: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. >>Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >>> >> And I thought no other living person had read that one... >Are you kidding? It's one of the great classics. >At least, to *my* generation . . . And to mine! Mark From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 16 13:55:24 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Re: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <446A0168.23014.19246F8@localhost> References: <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> <446A0168.23014.19246F8@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 16 May 2006 at 15:12, Kenneth Gorelick wrote > > > >> In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that > > >> joke, and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, > > >> without any fuss, go out. > > >> > > >> > > > Only if it is told 9 billion times, with 9 billion variations. > > > > > > Snarkhunter > > And I thought no other living person had read that one... > > Were we not supposed to get the reference? I assumed people would recognize the premise and last sentence of one of the classic SF stories (freely available on the web, incidentally, but no link since I'm not sure about the copyright status). From lydy at demesne.com Tue May 16 14:08:39 2006 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydy) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:08:39 -0500 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> References: <0d7c01c67870$9e0fe570$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44692437.4000304@brazee.net> <446930B1.6000607@comcast.net> <446952EF.9020703@comcast.net> Message-ID: <446A3F57.5050900@demesne.com> Jon Lincicum wrote: > Saying /Agyar/ is about [...] falls into the same category. It may be a > very slight giveaway, but I have trouble believing anyone who's read > very much of this list would be surprised by it. The book is 13 years > old, for goodness sake. This "spoiler" also in no way detracts from the > more important character developments and "twists" that make that book a > very good read. I'm pretty sure I'm not the stupidest person who's ever read /Agyar/, or for that matter, who's seen /Sixth Sense/. I wasn't sure what the nature of the story or the characters in /Agyar/ was until very near the end. (The story about the Irish cottage, I think, was the capstone. Or very near there.) (Is that a spoiler? I don't _think_ so.) And I didn't suss out /Sixth Sense/ at all. I needed the exposition at the very end. The revelation was emotionally and dramatically satisfying. I'm glad I didn't figure it out early. I'm a little unusual in reference to spoilers. What I like best about stories is watching them fall into place in the order that the author intends. I don't anticipate, or try to figure things out in advance. It does mean that I look stupid to other people, sometimes. It also means that I can get the kind experience that, say, Connie Willis intended in /Domesday Book/, while most of my friends had the first twist figured out well in advance. Because of this preference of mine, I do truly, truly hate spoilers, even very little ones. A friend called a friend who I was living with. She got the answering machine, and my friend reported that the message was, "You won't believe it! Luke and Leia are --" at which point my friend said that she'd hit the off button because she didn't want any spoilers. Unfortunately, I was in my rational mind, rather than my "story" mind, so I instantly filled out the rest. Oh, and it's a device I truly hate. So, another reason I hate even small spoilers is that I am too good extrapolating on little data. I'm not always right, but that doesn't fix the loss of suspense while experiencing the story. The person who was best at describing a book usefully without any spoilers was Scott Imes. Gods, I miss him. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 16 14:34:30 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:34:30 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: <446A3F57.5050900@demesne.com> Message-ID: Lydy Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/16/06 02:08 PM To 'Dragaera List' cc Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Saying /Agyar/ is about [...] falls into the same category. It may be a >> very slight giveaway, but I have trouble believing anyone who's read >> very much of this list would be surprised by it. The book is 13 years >> old, for goodness sake. This "spoiler" also in no way detracts from the >> more important character developments and "twists" that make that book a >> very good read. > >I'm pretty sure I'm not the stupidest person who's ever read /Agyar/, or >for that matter, who's seen /Sixth Sense/. I wasn't sure what the >nature of the story or the characters in /Agyar/ was until very near the >end. (The story about the Irish cottage, I think, was the capstone. Or >very near there.) (Is that a spoiler? I don't _think_ so.) And I >didn't suss out /Sixth Sense/ at all. I needed the exposition at the >very end. The revelation was emotionally and dramatically satisfying. >I'm glad I didn't figure it out early. One of the things I've learned in the last day is that the original cover art and blurb for /Agyar/ were apparently much less revealing than the subsequent Trade PB edition that I own. I think this misunderstanding contributed greatly to some of the back and forth of the last day or so. Majikjon From chica at dreamcafe.com Tue May 16 14:46:11 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:46:11 -0700 Subject: Back cover of mass-market -Agyar- Message-ID: <446A4823.4010809@dreamcafe.com> Yes... there was a change between editions. The original is the mass-market paperback. Just for the sake of those still wondering. :> That toothy gent is on the Tor trade paperback edition. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812515218/ref=sib_dp_top_bc/103-4219453-5331068?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S077#reader-link Chica*--- ------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:13:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Philip Hart Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace On Tue, 16 May 2006, Louis Eastman wrote: > > It is on the back of the book. I don't consider that a spoiler. Hmm, the (to my eye notably skillful) front cover art now shows a guy with a rather toothy grin. And the back cover is now as you describe. Perhaps you have a good point. ------------------------------ Message: 36 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:12:10 -0700 From: "Scott Schultz" Subject: RE: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) It's not a huge deal. We discuss all of SKZB's books on this list and you really can't discuss much about Agyar without acknowledging the fact that it's a vampire story. I DID have the impression that it was supposed to be non-obvious and I don't remember it being spelled out that clearly on the cover blurb. Makes me wonder if there's been a change between printings. --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From howard at brazee.net Tue May 16 14:51:05 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:51:05 -0600 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <446A4949.2090400@brazee.net> On 3:08 PM Lydy wrote: > It also > means that I can get the kind experience that, say, Connie Willis > intended in /Domesday Book/, while most of my friends had the first > twist figured out well in advance. Because of this preference of > mine, I do truly, truly hate spoilers, even very little ones. For the life of me, I can't remember any twists in that book. From lydy at demesne.com Tue May 16 14:59:20 2006 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydy) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:59:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Domesday Book **Potential Spoiler** In-Reply-To: <446A4949.2090400@brazee.net> References: <446A4949.2090400@brazee.net> Message-ID: <446A4B38.90202@demesne.com> Howard Brazee wrote: > On 3:08 PM Lydy wrote: > >> It also >> means that I can get the kind experience that, say, Connie Willis >> intended in /Domesday Book/, while most of my friends had the first >> twist figured out well in advance. Because of this preference of >> mine, I do truly, truly hate spoilers, even very little ones. > > > For the life of me, I can't remember any twists in that book. Well, I'm the only person I know who didn't expect to land in the middle of the Black Death until it started happening. That lack of expectation allowed me to form strong emotional bonds with the characters, and the subsequent horror was greatly enhanced by that attachment. This despite Scott's warning that it was a book where people recommended that one not become too attached to the characters. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 16 15:22:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > One of the things I've learned in the last day is that the original cover > art and blurb for /Agyar/ were apparently much less revealing than the > subsequent Trade PB edition that I own. > > I think this misunderstanding contributed greatly to some of the back and > forth of the last day or so. I did mention that (iirc) SKZB has expressed appreciation that the (original) blurb was spoiler-free - but if I had known about the change, I would have argued much less vehemently above. Happily I have the first edition hardcover and could lend the book to friends without any cover or blurb at all. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue May 16 18:17:50 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:17:50 -0400 Subject: Spoilers Message-ID: <7ACCF661.1BD37737.00048EA6@aol.com> "Scott Schultz" writes: >In any case, rather than argue semantics or degrees of "spoilerage", just >ask yourself if it would be a surprise at all to someone who hadn't yet read >the book. If so, then consider treating it as a spoiler out of deference to >those people. In the case of Agyar, if it's being pretty much spelled out on >the back cover then it's not really a spoiler any more, no matter what >SKZB's intentions might have been. Except that some people (like myself) frequently don't read cover blurbs because they don't want to be spoiled (and most blurbs contain at least one factual error anyway). And _Agyar_ clearly intends to be subtle on this point. It is a difficult question. I regret being spoiled about the premise of Kirstein's novels (especially since I explicitly asked about that aspect). -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From attjen at gwu.edu Wed May 17 04:32:25 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:32:25 -0400 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: When I first read Agyar, I had no idea it was a ******* story. It dawned on me fairly quickly that it probably was, but I was content to let the story drive my understanding. One of the things I really appreciate about it is that I think it can be read fully as a ******* novel and even more so based on previous discussions here. (Suggestion read Stoker's novel, than Agyar, and be amused.) But, it doesn't have to be read fully as a ******* novel. If you aren't familiar with the mythology or other takes on the *******, it is primarily a psychological thriller with a very unusual anti-hero. Plus, it mentions "Heart of Uncle" which really should be played louder. Matt *Oh, and I knew from the previews what the spoiler was in Sixth Sense. Still a pretty good movie though. (Thanks, in my opinion, to the rock- solid performances.) From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 08:09:00 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:09:00 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) References: Message-ID: > When I first read Agyar, I had no idea it was a ******* story. It > dawned on me fairly quickly that it probably was, but I was content to > let the story drive my understanding. > > One of the things I really appreciate about it is that I think it can > be read fully as a ******* novel and even more so based on previous > discussions here. (Suggestion read Stoker's novel, than Agyar, and be > amused.) > Isn't that a spoiler? It kinda negates the whole ******* bit. jeff -isn't particularly concerned with spoilers From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 17 08:28:44 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:28:44 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/17/06 08:09 AM To cc Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >> When I first read Agyar, I had no idea it was a ******* story. It >> dawned on me fairly quickly that it probably was, but I was content to >> let the story drive my understanding. >> >> One of the things I really appreciate about it is that I think it can >> be read fully as a ******* novel and even more so based on previous >> discussions here. (Suggestion read *****'s novel, than Agyar, and be >> amused.) >> > > >Isn't that a spoiler? It kinda negates the whole ******* bit. > >jeff > >-isn't particularly concerned with spoilers If, at this point, anyone reading this thread is still confused about what /Agyar/ is about, you could probably shout it in their face and it wouldn't make any difference. They aren't going to get it. Majikjon -Currently working on draft version of the updated rules page... From casey at the-bat.net Tue May 16 10:26:30 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:26:30 -0400 Subject: FW: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: <005401c6790d$df51e5e0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Jon wrote: > And I still think there's maybe a need for a FAQ or something to help > newbies (not just myself, but it certainly would have helped) avoid such > missteps. Otherwise, new contributors will be discouraged from posting, > for fear of breaking some unclear taboo. Just my $0.02. To which Philip replied > I find the above entirely reasonable. > > Faq topics: spoiler warnings, the subj line consensus, the off-topic > consensus, how to search the archives (and book search, and Amazon), > Mark's page and Alexx's timeline and the other important URLs... Much of this is covered in: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/dragaera-list/rules.html http://dragaera.info/links/ I'd say that if you've got specific suggestions for what should be added (and relative newcomers may be more aware of what gotchas they ran into), Put it together in a relatively neat package so that DD-B doesn't have to do much work to incorporate it. In the meantime, put it up on a website ?perhaps the wiki? and give him a link to it as well. Casey From attjen at gwu.edu Wed May 17 08:53:35 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:53:35 -0400 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) Message-ID: -Isn't that a spoiler? It kinda negates the whole ******* bit. Well, you'd have to guess which book. assuming you know who ***** is, that's fairly easy. Then you'd have to pick which character, slightly less easy. At any rate, you are already starting to spoil it for yourself if you've gotten that far. Of course, I was using the whole ******* in the same way that someone might jokingly say: Did you know that ***** is really *****? I'd never actually seen the new cover for Agyar. I don't think I like it. (on a totally side note, I was wondering whether a writer for The Onion was a Brust fan with yesterday's article: Novelist Thinks People Shrug 10 Times More Than They Actually Do) From pulmon at mac.com Wed May 17 09:05:57 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:05:57 -0400 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >>> When I first read Agyar, I had no idea it was a ******* story. It >>> dawned on me fairly quickly that it probably was, but I was >>> content to >>> let the story drive my understanding. >>> >>> One of the things I really appreciate about it is that I think it >>> can >>> be read fully as a ******* novel and even more so based on previous >>> discussions here. (Suggestion read *****'s novel, than Agyar, >>> and be >>> amused.) >>> >> >> >> Isn't that a spoiler? It kinda negates the whole ******* bit. >> >> jeff >> >> -isn't particularly concerned with spoilers > > If, at this point, anyone reading this thread is still confused > about what > /Agyar/ is about, you could probably shout it in their face and it > wouldn't make any difference. They aren't going to get it. > Majikjon > > -Currently working on draft version of the updated rules page... Nonetheless, it is annoying as a mosquito or tick bite, it leeches value, kind of a Snidely-Whiplash-like effect, you *****-sucker! From pulmon at mac.com Wed May 17 09:06:46 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:06:46 -0400 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kenneth J. Gorelick, MD, FCCP President and Chief Operating Officer 1 Maplewood Drive Newtown Square, PA 19073 tel: 610-325-9253 fax: 610-325-9252 mobile: 610-659-8236 On May 17, 2006, at 11:53 AM, Matthew Jennings wrote: > -Isn't that a spoiler? It kinda negates the whole ******* bit. > > Well, you'd have to guess which book. assuming you know who ***** is, > that's fairly easy. Then you'd have to pick which character, slightly > less easy. > > At any rate, you are already starting to spoil it for yourself if > you've gotten that far. > > Of course, I was using the whole ******* in the same way that someone > might jokingly say: Did you know that ***** is really *****? > > Actually, I thought it was a new master card ad... From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 09:14:56 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:14:56 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) References: Message-ID: > (on a totally side note, I was wondering whether a writer for The Onion > was a Brust fan with yesterday's article: Novelist Thinks People Shrug > 10 Times More Than They Actually Do) Novelist Thinks People Shrug 10 Times More Than They Actually Do May 15, 2006 | Issue 42.20 BOSTON-According to his handful of readers, budding novelist Mosley Forstner, 23, thinks that people shrug with much greater frequency than they actually do. "Every time a character responds to something in Mosley's book, it's "'Suppose that's the way of things,' she shrugged" or "'Fine, then I'm leaving,' he shrugged,"" said Rodney Klein, a fellow student and peer reviewer of Forstner's. "Can't his characters just 'say' something once in a while?" When informed of the criticism, Forstner responded with a grunt and a curt, dismissive motion of his shoulders intended to convey nonchalance. From howard at brazee.net Wed May 17 09:15:30 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:15:30 -0600 Subject: Spoilers Message-ID: <446B4C22.20205@brazee.net> On 5/16/2006 7:17 PM Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Except that some people (like myself) frequently don't read cover > blurbs > because they don't want to be spoiled (and most blurbs contain at > least one > factual error anyway). And _Agyar_ clearly intends to be subtle on > this point. Subtle, yes. Obscure, no. His status isn't a surprise. As far as blurbs go, that's another issue - some people will buy because of what they learn from the covers, and others will avoid buying for the same reason. What is wanted is happy customers who get what they want. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 09:21:26 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:21:26 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) References: Message-ID: > > Actually, I thought it was a new master card ad... Training with Sethra Lavode: Free One horse: 5 golds Riding that horse off a cliff into the Paths of the Dead to recover the magical Orb and restore the Empire: Priceless There are something's money can't buy. That's why there's JheregCard. With our exclusive contacts, toughs, and lenders, you'll get more than you bargained for. jeff - struggling mightily to not include an "interest rates are murder joke" From corwin at mpls.cx Wed May 17 09:31:39 2006 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:31:39 -0500 Subject: Amber stories (was: Agyar...) In-Reply-To: <446A25CB.9050601@brazee.net> References: <446A25CB.9050601@brazee.net> Message-ID: <446B4FEB.6070500@mpls.cx> Howard Brazee wrote: > On 11:42 AM Corwin Brust wrote: >> but I also had that >> trouble with _Lord of Light_, about which enough good cannot be said. > > It's intersting seeing you talk about Zelazny. How did you feel > reading the Amber series? I'd love to give this the answer it deserves. If I have the opportunity before I've managed to forget your interest I'll write to my journal[1] on the subject. [1] http://mplscorwin.livejournal.com From attjen at gwu.edu Wed May 17 09:41:01 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:41:01 -0400 Subject: DragaeraCard, don't leave home without it Message-ID: -Training with Sethra Lavode: Free -One horse: 5 golds -Riding that horse off a cliff into the Paths of the Dead to recover the -magical Orb and restore the Empire: Priceless- -There are some things money can't buy. That's why there's JheregCard. With -our exclusive contacts, toughs, and lenders, you'll get more than you -bargained for. That's not bad. I think there are possibilities here: Arranging a meeting with Sethra Lavode: 100 Gold Sneaking into a wizard's keep in a barrel: 10 gold Acquiring part of a great weapon: priceless There are some things money can't buy. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 17 09:55:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:55:22 -0700 Subject: DragaeraCard, don't leave home without it In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matthew Jennings Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/17/06 09:41 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject DragaeraCard, don't leave home without it >That's not bad. I think there are possibilities here: > >Arranging a meeting with Sethra Lavode: 100 Gold >Sneaking into a wizard's keep in a barrel: 10 gold >Acquiring part of a great weapon: priceless > >There are some things money can't buy. New sword and gold cloak to join Phoenix Guard: 17 Imperials Tuition for Discretion School: 2,000 Imperials Paying a witch to plant ideas in a Pyrologist's head: 5 Imperials Rising to the post of Prime Minister: Priceless There are some things that money can buy. For everything else, there's YendiCard. Majikjon -Wondering if this twist is subtle enough... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 17 10:44:28 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:44:28 -0700 Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: <20060515042143.54524.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Mark A. Mandel" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/14/06 09:21 PM To Dragaera list cc Subject RE: Sword Jokes. >All right, this has gone far enough. > >I've collected the lot of 'em and put them up at >http://cracksandshards.com/swordjokes.txt, with a link from >http://cracksandshards.com/jokes.html Hmm, one of mine seems to have wound up in the wrong category... This one: ::::::::: Jon Lincicum :::::::: What's the difference between a sword and a Teckla? -It's possible for a sword to get even more dull. ...is listed under Jhereg, but would probably make more sense under Teckla. Majikjon From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed May 17 11:38:03 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:38:03 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Which you are even now repeating . . . . James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN snip > >If, at this point, anyone reading this thread is still confused about what >/Agyar/ is about, you could probably shout it in their face and it >wouldn't make any difference. They aren't going to get it. >Majikjon > >-Currently working on draft version of the updated rules page... > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 17 12:32:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:32:08 -0700 Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "James Griffin" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/17/06 11:38 AM To cc Subject Re: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) >Which you are even now repeating . . . . > >James Griffin > >Still Another Vlad faN > >snip Well, no, since I very carefully edited out the potential spolier-causing name in the quoted text of my reply. (See? I *can* learn.) Majikjon -Currently editing the rules page section about not top-posting... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed May 17 12:41:00 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar (Agyar?/Sixth Sense Spoilers) (Was Re: Brokedown Palace) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > (See? I *can* learn.) > > Majikjon > > -Currently editing the rules page section about not top-posting... All's well that ends well. Or, as the Greeks put it: Call no man happy until he is dead. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed May 17 13:59:03 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:59:03 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean Message-ID: <2A6B6193.54247AB8.00048EA6@aol.com> Considering the interest here in Patrick O'Brien's books, I'd like to recommend Naomi Novik's _His Majesty's Dragon_ (_Temeraire_ in the UK) which is also about the Napoleanic Wars (plus dragons). The first 45 pages take place at sea, during which the main character hatches and bonds with a flying lizard. After that there isn't much naval action, but the dragons are treated just like small ships (with obvious parallels to Hobb's Liveship books). And like Brust's books, the deadly flying lizards have better manners than the humans. -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 14:08:04 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:08:04 -0700 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean References: <2A6B6193.54247AB8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:59 PM Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean > Considering the interest here in Patrick O'Brien's books, I'd like to > recommend Naomi Novik's _His Majesty's Dragon_ (_Temeraire_ in the > UK) which is also about the Napoleanic Wars (plus dragons). The > first 45 pages take place at sea, during which the main character > hatches and bonds with a flying lizard. After that there isn't much > naval action, but the dragons are treated just like small ships (with > obvious parallels to Hobb's Liveship books). And like Brust's books, > the deadly flying lizards have better manners than the humans. > > -- > Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com > http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ > "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." > -- James Nicoll > I have read the first two books, the third is due out soon. They are a fun read. jeff From ike at manor.org Wed May 17 14:29:23 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [spoiler?]lights going out In-Reply-To: References: <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> <446A0168.23014.19246F8@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 May 2006, Michele Riccio wrote: > > > On 16 May 2006 at 15:12, Kenneth Gorelick wrote > > > > > >> In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that > > > >> joke, and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, > > > >> without any fuss, go out. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Only if it is told 9 billion times, with 9 billion variations. > > > > > > > > Snarkhunter > > > And I thought no other living person had read that one... > > > > Were we not supposed to get the reference? > > > I assumed people would recognize the premise and last sentence of > one of the classic SF stories (freely available on the web, > incidentally, but no link since I'm not sure about the copyright > status). Is this referring to the short story about [begin vague recognition] a man who sells automating equipment to monks spelling out the names of god, after which the stars start going out? From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed May 17 14:22:37 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:22:37 -0500 Subject: [spoiler?]lights going out In-Reply-To: References: <4469B508.3030800@email.ers.usda.gov> <446A0168.23014.19246F8@localhost> Message-ID: <446B941D.10709@comcast.net> The answer to your question is yes. The story in question is "The Nine Billion Names of God," by Arthur C. Clarke. Ike Porter wrote: >On Tue, 16 May 2006, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >>On Tue, 16 May 2006, Michele Riccio wrote: >> >> >> >>>On 16 May 2006 at 15:12, Kenneth Gorelick wrote >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>In fact, the very purpose of the Cycle might be to set up that >>>>>>joke, and when somebody tells it the small invisible lights will, >>>>>>without any fuss, go out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Only if it is told 9 billion times, with 9 billion variations. >>>>> >>>>>Snarkhunter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>And I thought no other living person had read that one... >>>> >>>> >>>Were we not supposed to get the reference? >>> >>> >>I assumed people would recognize the premise and last sentence of >>one of the classic SF stories (freely available on the web, >>incidentally, but no link since I'm not sure about the copyright >>status). >> >> > >Is this referring to the short story about [begin vague recognition] a man >who sells automating equipment to monks spelling out the names of god, >after which the stars start going out? > > > > From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed May 17 14:56:49 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 May 2006 16:56:49 -0500 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <2A6B6193.54247AB8.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <2A6B6193.54247AB8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <87mzdg9uxq.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Considering the interest here in Patrick O'Brien's books, I'd like to > recommend Naomi Novik's _His Majesty's Dragon_ (_Temeraire_ in the > UK) which is also about the Napoleanic Wars (plus dragons). The > first 45 pages take place at sea, during which the main character > hatches and bonds with a flying lizard. After that there isn't much > naval action, but the dragons are treated just like small ships (with > obvious parallels to Hobb's Liveship books). And like Brust's books, > the deadly flying lizards have better manners than the humans. I need to read this, clearly. I've had it recommended to me by a number of people with thoroughly incompatible taste in fiction (all of whom overlap me in some area or other), and it sounds interesting from every single on of their descriptions. I deduce that the dragons don't breathe fire in this world -- basing them on ships (of that period's technology) would be kind of a problem otherwise, and for that matter they'd clear the enemy navy off the ocean pretty quick otherwise. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 15:25:40 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:25:40 -0700 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Flying Lizards and Napolean > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > > Considering the interest here in Patrick O'Brien's books, I'd like to > > recommend Naomi Novik's _His Majesty's Dragon_ (_Temeraire_ in the > > UK) which is also about the Napoleanic Wars (plus dragons). The > > first 45 pages take place at sea, during which the main character > > hatches and bonds with a flying lizard. After that there isn't much > > naval action, but the dragons are treated just like small ships (with > > obvious parallels to Hobb's Liveship books). And like Brust's books, > > the deadly flying lizards have better manners than the humans. > > I need to read this, clearly. I've had it recommended to me by a > number of people with thoroughly incompatible taste in fiction (all of > whom overlap me in some area or other), and it sounds interesting from > every single on of their descriptions. > > I deduce that the dragons don't breathe fire in this world -- basing > them on ships (of that period's technology) would be kind of a problem > otherwise, and for that matter they'd clear the enemy navy off the > ocean pretty quick otherwise. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , I would tell, you, but that would be a spoiler. jeff From Gaertk at aol.com Wed May 17 16:54:21 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:54:21 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean Message-ID: <370D02C2.451A55BB.00048EA6@aol.com> David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >> Naomi Novik's _His Majesty's Dragon_ > I need to read this, clearly. I've had it recommended to me by a > number of people with thoroughly incompatible taste in fiction Really? I picked it up after seeing Kate Nepveu's comments, and her tastes are close to mine (well, as close as anyone else). > I deduce that the dragons don't breathe fire in this world -- > basing them on ships (of that period's technology) would be kind of > a problem otherwise, and for that matter they'd clear the enemy > navy off the ocean pretty quick otherwise. Some dragons can breathe fire, but only certain breeds (and none of them British). And most combat dragons are too large to be carried by warships (if a sea journey is necessary they use large barges), though I don't know the sizes of the fire-breathers. They do seem vulnerable to normal ship armaments: "We were not half a mile distant from the /Orient/ when she went up, like a torch; we had shot out her deck-guns and mostly cleared her sharpshooters from the tops, so the dragon could strafe her at will." -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed May 17 19:49:55 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword Jokes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060518024955.58428.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Hmm, one of mine seems to have wound up in the wrong category... > > This one: > > ::::::::: Jon Lincicum :::::::: > What's the difference between a sword and a Teckla? > -It's possible for a sword to get even more dull. > > ...is listed under Jhereg, but would probably make more sense under > Teckla. I seem to have put it in both places. Taking out of Jhereg. Thanks. m __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed May 17 19:52:27 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <2A6B6193.54247AB8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20060518025227.89477.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Considering the interest here in Patrick O'Brien's books, I'd like to > recommend Naomi Novik's _His Majesty's Dragon_ (_Temeraire_ in the > UK) which is also about the Napoleanic Wars (plus dragons). The > first 45 pages take place at sea, during which the main character > hatches and bonds with a flying lizard. When I read "during which the main character hatches and bonds with a flying lizard", my first thought was, "The main character is a dragon?!" ... Boinggg!! m a m __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Wed May 17 19:59:31 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sword jokes (was: no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060518025931.83924.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Matthew Jennings wrote: > > I've enjoyed some of those posted probably too much for what they > deserve. Here is my meager contribution: > > How many Tiassa does it take to sharpen a sword? > -Please... around a Tiassa nothing is ever dull :-) Adding it! m __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From felixeisen at yahoo.com Wed May 17 21:56:00 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Regarding Spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060518045600.37242.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> If the book's been published in paperback for over a year -- and I use a year as an extreme example, three to six months seems to be enough for a fan list -- then spoiler warnings for that book should be no longer necessary. If you go on a list and bitch about spoiler warnings for a book that's been in print since 1993, you've got no room. If you started babbling about Dzur, though, I'd expect spoiler warnings until Christmas... Lord Felix Eisen, the Forgiven Reeve and Special Ambassador Court of Aetheri I, King of Krace --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. From felixeisen at yahoo.com Wed May 17 22:17:37 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Agyar, not gonna warn ya Message-ID: <20060518051737.44909.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Interestingly enough, I recall deciding within the first couple or three pages that the 'author' was an immortal of some sort; seeing as I'd been elbows-deep in Anne Rice at the time, I'm pretty sure that the vampire connection was more-or-less instantaneous. Page two of the text, if what's offered by Amazon.com is reliable; 'Maybe longer or shorter, depending upon what you mean by around here' is the phrase that gave it to me first, and the conversation(s) that followed only improved upon the impression. Maybe it's just me. Lord Felix Eisen, the Forgiven Reeve and Special Ambassador Court of Aetheri I, King of Krace --------------------------------- Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. From casey at the-bat.net Thu May 18 06:45:52 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:45:52 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <20060518025227.89477.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00fd01c67a81$61af0df0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > When I read "during which the main character hatches > and bonds with a flying lizard", my first thought was, > "The main character is a dragon?!" ... Boinggg!! :) The title character of the first novel is, certainly. The POV character is not. After reading the second installment, I'm perhaps a slight bit less eager to recommend these books to everyone I meet than I was after the first, but I'm still counting the days (12) to the release of _Black Powder War_. Oh and a friend commented that the highest accolade she could give to the book (borrowed from the library) was that not only does she plan to buy all three, but she'd buy them in hardcover if they were available. Casey From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 07:36:46 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:36:46 -0700 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean References: <00fd01c67a81$61af0df0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > When I read "during which the main character hatches > > and bonds with a flying lizard", my first thought was, > > "The main character is a dragon?!" ... Boinggg!! > > :) The title character of the first novel is, certainly. The POV > character is not. > > After reading the second installment, I'm perhaps a slight bit less > eager to recommend these books to everyone I meet than I was after the > first, but I'm still counting the days (12) to the release of _Black > Powder War_. > > > Casey > I had the same reaction to the second book. The writing was fine, but the plot was a bit lacking. I think that a large part of the blame for that lies on the publisher for pushing all three books out so fast. jeff -wonders what effect dragons would have on the development of mechanical air travel. From casey at the-bat.net Thu May 18 08:03:45 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:03:45 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <012601c67a8c$430ddd30$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> David D-B writ: > I deduce that the dragons don't breathe fire in this > world -- basing them on ships (of that period's > technology) would be kind of a problem otherwise, > and for that matter they'd clear the enemy navy off > the ocean pretty quick otherwise. It would be fair to describe the military situation as a collision of 19th century history with 20th century aviation. There are analogues to aircraft carriers, bombers, fighters, transports, AA guns, etc. Casey From howard at brazee.net Thu May 18 08:15:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:15:21 -0600 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <012601c67a8c$430ddd30$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <012601c67a8c$430ddd30$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <446C8F89.4040202@brazee.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: >David D-B writ: >> I deduce that the dragons don't breathe fire in this >> world -- basing them on ships (of that period's >> technology) would be kind of a problem otherwise, >> and for that matter they'd clear the enemy navy off >> the ocean pretty quick otherwise. > >It would be fair to describe the military situation as a collision of >19th century history with 20th century aviation. There are analogues >to aircraft carriers, bombers, fighters, transports, AA guns, etc. > >Casey > > The big utility of flying beasts for that time would be for communication and observation. As fighting machines, I don't see it. From casey at the-bat.net Thu May 18 08:38:51 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:38:51 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <446C8F89.4040202@brazee.net> Message-ID: <014201c67a91$2c7a7fb0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Howard opined: > The big utility of flying beasts for that time would > be for communication and observation. As fighting > machines, I don't see it. Indeed this is one role (which is highlighted at one point in the second novel), but think how much of the outcome of the Napoleonic Wars hinged on British Naval power. Now imagine the impact of introducing aviation into naval battles. Naval groups without air power have a distinct disadvantage when facing attack from ships that do have air support. Also, these are not simply flying beasts. I did not misspeak when I referred to Temeraire as the title character of the first novel. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu May 18 11:57:40 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:57:40 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: <014201c67a91$2c7a7fb0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: Using recent posts as a guideline, I've been working on revising the rules page for the list in order to address list policies that have been heretofore untouched by the official rules. The following is a draft proposal for an "official" spoiler policy, submitted here for comments and suggestions, prior to implementation. Any and all feedback--of the constructive variety--is encouraged and appreciated. Jon (Note: Other parts of the rules will also be undergoing revision, but I'm awaiting some verification of some technical details before revising those sections. In other words, more will follow soon.) --- Spoilers & Spoiler Warnings In general, it should be assumed that most readers of this list will be familiar with the basic characters and general world of Dragaera. When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations from the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in the subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the events in _Issola_ and _The Viscount of Adrilankha_. It is essential to include spoiler warnings when discussing virtually any topic related to a book published by Steven Brust within the past 6 months. (Currently [May-06] there are none, but _Dzur_ is forthcoming, [August-06].) Examples of appropriate spoiler warnings: "The best thief in Dragaera? (Orca Spoilers)" or "The undead and Dark Water (Athyra Spoilers)". When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good number) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail client to display the spoiler text by accident. Spoiler warnings should be used with greater discipline when discussing Steven's non-Dragaera works, such as _Agyar_, _Freedom & Necessity_, _The Gypsy_ and _To Reign in Hell_. Spoiler warnings should also be used when making revealing references to works by other authors, including books, short stories, movies, or plays that list members may not be familiar with. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 12:38:38 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:38:38 -0700 Subject: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text References: Message-ID: > Using recent posts as a guideline, I've been working on revising the rules > page for the list in order to address list policies that have been > heretofore untouched by the official rules. > > The following is a draft proposal for an "official" spoiler policy, > submitted here for comments and suggestions, prior to implementation. > > Any and all feedback--of the constructive variety--is encouraged and > appreciated. > > Jon > > (Note: Other parts of the rules will also be undergoing revision, but I'm > awaiting some verification of some technical details before revising those > sections. In other words, more will follow soon.) > > --- > > Spoilers & Spoiler Warnings > > In general, it should be assumed that most readers of this list will be > familiar with the basic characters and general world of Dragaera. > > When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations from > the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in the > subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts > revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the events in _Issola_ and _The > Viscount of Adrilankha_. > > It is essential to include spoiler warnings when discussing virtually any > topic related to a book published by Steven Brust within the past 6 > months. (Currently [May-06] there are none, but _Dzur_ is forthcoming, > [August-06].) > > Examples of appropriate spoiler warnings: "The best thief in Dragaera? > (Orca Spoilers)" or "The undead and Dark Water (Athyra Spoilers)". > > When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the > spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, > it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good > number) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail > client to display the spoiler text by accident. > > Spoiler warnings should be used with greater discipline when discussing > Steven's non-Dragaera works, such as _Agyar_, _Freedom & Necessity_, _The > Gypsy_ and _To Reign in Hell_. > > Spoiler warnings should also be used when making revealing references to > works by other authors, including books, short stories, movies, or plays > that list members may not be familiar with. Rather than 6 months after initial publishing, perhaps 6 months after being published in paperback? And perhaps something for any books that have been out of print, thus less likely to have been read? jeff From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu May 18 12:40:53 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The old consensus position, which I stated in a sentence or two earlier, based the spoiler timeframe for The Dragaera Commedia on the publication of the ppb edition. A few weeks after that I would not put spoiler warnings up. I would not consider the VofA to require warnings, and only perhaps the very conclusion of _Issola_ (by analogy with the ending of _Orca_.) I'm not sure how many here have not yet read _BP_ - if it is a significant number, perhaps they should be given until a few weeks after the new edition comes out to do so. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu May 18 12:47:49 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:47:49 +0200 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the >spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, >it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good >number) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail >client to display the spoiler text by accident. 15-20? You're missing a clear option to use the number 17 here! From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu May 18 13:28:17 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:28:17 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605181328q46d06e8ai8675476c4af2b48b@mail.gmail.com> No spoilers for VofA? I did not anticipate the ending. -Max Wilson On 5/18/06, Philip Hart wrote: > The old consensus position, which I stated in a sentence or > two earlier, based the spoiler timeframe for The Dragaera > Commedia on the publication of the ppb edition. A few weeks > after that I would not put spoiler warnings up. I would > not consider the VofA to require warnings, and only perhaps > the very conclusion of _Issola_ (by analogy with the ending > of _Orca_.) > > I'm not sure how many here have not yet read _BP_ - if it is > a significant number, perhaps they should be given until > a few weeks after the new edition comes out to do so. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu May 18 13:33:21 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:33:21 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean Message-ID: <6FD5C10C.65C1D73D.00048EA6@aol.com> "Casey Rousseau" writes: > Also, these are not simply flying beasts. I did not misspeak when > I referred to Temeraire as the title character of the first novel. Not only does the US title of the first book refer to him, but his name is used for the whole series as well as appearing in the UK titles: _Temeraire_, _Temeraire: Throne of Jade_, _Temeraire: Black Powder War_ (British publisher is also printing hardcover editions) -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu May 18 13:38:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <6FD5C10C.65C1D73D.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <6FD5C10C.65C1D73D.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2006 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > Also, these are not simply flying beasts. I did not misspeak when > > I referred to Temeraire as the title character of the first novel. > > Not only does the US title of the first book refer to him, but his > name is used for the whole series as well as appearing in the UK > titles: _Temeraire_, _Temeraire: Throne of Jade_, _Temeraire: Black > Powder War_ (British publisher is also printing hardcover editions) And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Turner%2C_The_fighting_Temeraire.jpg From casey at the-bat.net Thu May 18 13:45:45 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:45:45 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c67abc$09e7e2f0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Philip Hart writ: > And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: Alas, no. Though he did paint such an one of his namesake. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu May 18 13:48:21 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: <003901c67abc$09e7e2f0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003901c67abc$09e7e2f0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2006, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Philip Hart writ: > > And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: > > Alas, no. Though he did paint such an one of his namesake. That's not him, his duty done, flying off into the sunset? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 14:05:10 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:05:10 -0700 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean References: <6FD5C10C.65C1D73D.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" > > And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Turner%2C_The_fighting_Temeraire.jpg Oooooo, that is nice. I wonder how much a lithograph would cost. . . jeff From grey at maskwood.com Thu May 18 14:06:55 2006 From: grey at maskwood.com (Grey Walker) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flying Lizards and Napolean In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060518210655.84392.qmail@web314.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Turner%2C_The_fighting_Temeraire.jpg Oh, how gorgeous! Grey Walker From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu May 18 14:30:29 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:30:29 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Martin Wohlert" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/18/06 12:47 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject RE: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the >>spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, >>it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good >>number) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail >>client to display the spoiler text by accident. > >15-20? You're missing a clear option to use the number 17 here! Actually, I originally had it as "10-20", since I thought giving a range here sounded a little less Draconian than a set number, but then I thought, "the range really should center on 17", so I changed it. ;-) Jon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri May 19 06:18:12 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:18:12 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napoleon In-Reply-To: References: <003901c67abc$09e7e2f0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <446DC594.5070909@email.ers.usda.gov> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 18 May 2006, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > >>Philip Hart writ: >> >> >>>And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: >>> >>> >>Alas, no. Though he did paint such an one of his namesake. >> >> > >That's not him, his duty done, flying off into the sunset? > > With late Turner, how would you ever know? Snarkhunter From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri May 19 07:14:46 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:14:46 -0700 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napoleon References: <003901c67abc$09e7e2f0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> <446DC594.5070909@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Koester" To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:18 AM Subject: Re: Flying Lizards and Napoleon > Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 18 May 2006, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > > > > > >>Philip Hart writ: > >> > >> > >>>And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: > >>> > >>> > >>Alas, no. Though he did paint such an one of his namesake. > >> > >> > > > >That's not him, his duty done, flying off into the sunset? > > > > > With late Turner, how would you ever know? > > Snarkhunter > Because the dragon would be blocking the light. jeff From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri May 19 08:31:34 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:31:34 -0400 Subject: Flying Lizards and Napoleon In-Reply-To: References: <003901c67abc$09e7e2f0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> <446DC594.5070909@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <446DE4D6.40006@email.ers.usda.gov> Jeff wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Koester" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:18 AM >Subject: Re: Flying Lizards and Napoleon > > > > >>Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Thu, 18 May 2006, Casey Rousseau wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Philip Hart writ: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>And Turner made a gorgeous painting of him: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Alas, no. Though he did paint such an one of his namesake. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>That's not him, his duty done, flying off into the sunset? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>With late Turner, how would you ever know? >> >>Snarkhunter >> >> >> > >Because the dragon would be blocking the light. > > > Ah, but with Turner--it's *all* light. Snarkhunter From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri May 19 14:08:27 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 May 2006 16:08:27 -0500 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87k68h2050.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > Actually, I originally had it as "10-20", since I thought giving a range > here sounded a little less Draconian than a set number, but then I > thought, "the range really should center on 17", so I changed it. ;-) You could make it explicit while still being not so Draconian by saying something like "somewhere around 17". Most people interested in Dragaera will recognize the number and msot of *them* will then deduce that that exact number is cited for humorous puposes. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri May 19 14:27:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:27:15 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: <87k68h2050.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/19/06 02:08 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > >> Actually, I originally had it as "10-20", since I thought giving a range >> here sounded a little less Draconian than a set number, but then I >> thought, "the range really should center on 17", so I changed it. ;-) > >You could make it explicit while still being not so Draconian by >saying something like "somewhere around 17". Most people interested >in Dragaera will recognize the number and msot of *them* will then >deduce that that exact number is cited for humorous puposes. Well, yes. But then, I've never really been that funny. (Is this sarcasm? Irony? Self-deprecating humor, or perhaps a vain attempt at humility? What can be made of these enigmatic comments from the gallery? Will Zaphod be able to find Zarniwoop in his personal universe that he carries around in his briefcase? Find out in the next thrilling episode of...) Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Fri May 19 15:14:32 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:14:32 -0400 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 19, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > David Dyer-Bennet > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 05/19/06 02:08 PM > > To > dragaera at dragaera.info > cc > > Subject > Re: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text > > > > >> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: >> >>> Actually, I originally had it as "10-20", since I thought giving a > range >>> here sounded a little less Draconian than a set number, but then I >>> thought, "the range really should center on 17", so I changed >>> it. ;-) >> >> You could make it explicit while still being not so Draconian by >> saying something like "somewhere around 17". Most people interested >> in Dragaera will recognize the number and msot of *them* will then >> deduce that that exact number is cited for humorous puposes. > > Well, yes. > > But then, I've never really been that funny. > > (Is this sarcasm? Irony? Self-deprecating humor, or perhaps a vain > attempt > at humility? What can be made of these enigmatic comments from the > gallery? Will Zaphod be able to find Zarniwoop in his personal > universe > that he carries around in his briefcase? Find out in the next > thrilling > episode of...) > > Majikjon > > Speaking as a leader of the anarchist movement, I personally hate policies. Draconian or not, it will lead to some feeling Issolated, others feeling Dzur, and some even going Vallistic. I say leave well enough alone. The topless posting rule is more than enough; let's leave well-enough a-Lyorn. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 22 07:35:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 07:35:33 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick 05/19/06 03:14 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc David Dyer-Bennet , dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: META: Proposed Spoiler Warning Policy text >Speaking as a leader of the anarchist movement, I personally hate >policies. Draconian or not, it will lead to some feeling Issolated, >others feeling Dzur, and some even going Vallistic. I say leave well >enough alone. The topless posting rule is more than enough; let's >leave well-enough a-Lyorn. Not knowing exactly how much of this is serious, and how much is just in Pun, let me just say that the "rules" are not really meant to be constrictive. The point here is that these "policies" are already being enforced (vigilante style) on the list, and are therefore de facto rules of the list... But ones that, in many cases, such as the spoiler warnings, have no written explanation. Personally, I don't like rules for the sake of having rules, either. The real point here is to allow polite communication between list members. Since different folks have different ideas about what polite behavior consists of, it is helpful to have a set standard for common points of disagreement. I'm trying to keep these as limited as possible, and phrased mostly in the form of suggestions. And with that, here is the first revision of the Spoiler Policy text with some of the changes you guys have suggested: --- Spoilers & Spoiler Warnings In general, it should be assumed that most readers of this list will be familiar with the basic characters and general world of Dragaera. When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations from the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in the subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and _The Viscount of Adrilankha_. It is essential to include spoiler warnings when discussing virtually any topic related to a book recently published by Steven Brust. ("Recent" in this case means within 6 months of the release of the paperback edition. Currently [May-06] there are none, but _Dzur_ is forthcoming, [August-06].) Examples of appropriate spoiler warnings: "The best thief in Dragaera? (Orca Spoilers)" or "The undead and Dark Water (Athyra Spoilers)". When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good number) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail client to display the spoiler text by accident. Spoiler warnings should be used with greater discipline when discussing Steven's non-Dragaera works, such as _Agyar_, _Freedom & Necessity_, _The Gypsy_, _To Reign in Hell_, and also _Brokedown Palace_ which has been out of print for many years. Spoiler warnings should also be used when making revealing references to works by other authors, including books, short stories, movies, or plays that list members may not be familiar with. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon May 22 11:44:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:44:57 -0700 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I writing a cultural article for the Wiki, I was pondering the question of what forms of artistic expresion Dragaerans use. One of the things I noticed is that while we have had many references to Dragaeran plays, books, paintings, sculptures, carvings, etc. I seem to recall few instances of Dragaerans dancing. Do Dragaerans dance? Do we have textev for the forms that this might take? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 22 12:12:54 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Do Dragaerans dance? If they didn't, Vlad would have mocked them on the topic already. From bryann at bryann.net Mon May 22 16:05:52 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:05:52 -0500 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> > Do Dragaerans dance? > > Do we have textev for the forms that this might take? I am slowly being converted to Amazon's "search inside"... Lord of Castle Black, page 9 or 408 (Amazon returns the same quote for both, may copy has neither a page 9 or a page 408, but I remember the quote) - "was very similar to the motions and gyrations of an Issola snake-dancer." Book of Jhereg, page 58 - "her walk was smooth, flowing, and delicate as a court dancer's." Bryan From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon May 22 16:11:41 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> References: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006, Bryan Newell wrote: > > Do Dragaerans dance? > > Lord of Castle Black [...] That leads me to conjecture that Aliera did not dance at Morrolan's party, or at least not until she gave up floating. Though Vlad might find that hard not to note. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 22 17:19:53 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:19:53 -0700 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: References: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 5/22/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Mon, 22 May 2006, Bryan Newell wrote: > > > > Do Dragaerans dance? > > > > Lord of Castle Black [...] > > > That leads me to conjecture that Aliera did not dance > at Morrolan's party, or at least not until she gave up > floating. Though Vlad might find that hard not to note. Perhaps the "teckla of a Dzurlord" who "noticed how [she walked] and made remarks" that she wound up dueling with in /Yendi/ had simply asked her to dance, and she was in a bitchy enough mood that she decided to take offence. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 22 17:31:54 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:31:54 -0700 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> References: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: On 5/22/06, Bryan Newell wrote: > > Do Dragaerans dance? > > > > Do we have textev for the forms that this might take? > > I am slowly being converted to Amazon's "search inside"... > > > Lord of Castle Black, page 9 or 408 (Amazon returns the same quote for both, > may copy has neither a page 9 or a page 408, but I remember the quote) > - "was very similar to the motions and gyrations of an Issola > snake-dancer." > > > Book of Jhereg, page 58 > - "her walk was smooth, flowing, and delicate as a court dancer's." > > Dragaera Booksearch is a little better of general word searches, and the are about a dozen hits on "dance", and several for "dancing" and "dancer". Most of the descriptions are either metaphorical (eg, fire "dancing"), although there is also Vlad's mention of the "jhereg dance" that Loiosh does to make himself look bigger. Heh. Amazon search inside appears to confirm my memory that Aibynn danced when he drummed before the Empress. But Amazon is being cranky and refusing to show me the entire page. Another book search tool is http://books.google.com/ Although I see that they don't have the Ace books scanned, and they aren't letting me view the full page either. Or maybe it's something to do with my browser. From books at bofh.com Mon May 22 18:43:53 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:43:53 -0700 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: References: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> Message-ID: <20060523014353.GA24581@bofh.com> > On 5/22/06, Bryan Newell wrote: > Do Dragaerans dance? > > Do we have textev for the forms that this might take? " [...] desire to take this person to Jawbone Mountain, and there introduce him Jggo!f'tha the bone-dancer, and then ask him again. Should we encounter an Eastern witch who asserts the superiority of his [...] " TPG -122 -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us Bumper Sticker: Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon May 22 22:37:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 22:37:20 -0700 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: <20060523014353.GA24581@bofh.com> References: <004101c67df4$46006100$6501a8c0@dell> <20060523014353.GA24581@bofh.com> Message-ID: On 5/22/06, Jot Powers wrote: > On 5/22/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > > Do Dragaerans dance? > > > > Do we have textev for the forms that this might take? > > " [...] desire to take this person to Jawbone Mountain, and there > introduce him Jggo!f'tha the bone-dancer, and then ask him again. > Should we encounter an Eastern witch who asserts the superiority > of his [...] " TPG -122 > Yes, but, you perceive, "Jggo!f'tha the bone-dancer" is not actually, in purest point of fact, actually a /Dragaeran/. A better textev is: /Phoenix/, pg 155: "[...] Aibynn began to move, the drum cradled against his left side. He spun in place for a while, then began to dance out and back as the singing died and they just played." The snarky might feel compelled to point out that Aibynn isn't a Dragaeran either, but I stoutly maintain that the fact that he is at least the same species makes of him a far more appropriate example. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 23 06:12:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 06:12:07 -0700 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is all great stuff, guys, thanks. What seems to be (somewhat strangely) missing is the formal kind of ballroom dancing you would expect (on Earth) at a fancy party thrown by nobility. We've seen a number of parties (well, technically just one very long one) at Castle Black, yet no mention is made of this sort of dancing. Since, in human (well, in this context, I guess you'd have to say Easterner) cultures, this sort of dancing is an important preamble to more significant forms of intimacy, perhaps this is just one sign that Dragaerans do not grow close (fall in love, bear children, etc.) as easily as we do. But, of course, a theory built on a lack of evidence doesn't really stand up very well. Majikjon "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/22/06 10:37 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Do Dragaerans dance? On 5/22/06, Jot Powers wrote: > On 5/22/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > > Do Dragaerans dance? > > > > Do we have textev for the forms that this might take? > > " [...] desire to take this person to Jawbone Mountain, and there > introduce him Jggo!f'tha the bone-dancer, and then ask him again. > Should we encounter an Eastern witch who asserts the superiority > of his [...] " TPG -122 > Yes, but, you perceive, "Jggo!f'tha the bone-dancer" is not actually, in purest point of fact, actually a /Dragaeran/. A better textev is: /Phoenix/, pg 155: "[...] Aibynn began to move, the drum cradled against his left side. He spun in place for a while, then began to dance out and back as the singing died and they just played." The snarky might feel compelled to point out that Aibynn isn't a Dragaeran either, but I stoutly maintain that the fact that he is at least the same species makes of him a far more appropriate example. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 23 08:35:47 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: [...] > What seems to be (somewhat strangely) missing is the formal kind of > ballroom dancing you would expect (on Earth) at a fancy party thrown by > nobility. > > We've seen a number of parties (well, technically just one very long one) > at Castle Black, yet no mention is made of this sort of dancing. [...] Note that we have (iirc) not seen many large unmixed gatherings. I can imagine that Vallistas and Dzurs tend not to dance together due to incompatible styles as well as the social taboo. I'd be flabbergasted to learn that at Lyorn gatherings there is no traditional dance based on martial arts forms, that Issolas do not dance at weddings or as an art form, that young Dragonlords do not have group dances recalling famous battles. From howard at brazee.net Tue May 23 08:37:19 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:37:19 -0600 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44732C2F.9040100@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >This is all great stuff, guys, thanks. > >What seems to be (somewhat strangely) missing is the formal kind of >ballroom dancing you would expect (on Earth) at a fancy party thrown by >nobility. > > > Let's think about elves in traditional literature. Maybe dancing is a powerful magic that is risky to have as a pastime or entertainment. From kieronthecontent at gmail.com Tue May 23 11:22:36 2006 From: kieronthecontent at gmail.com (kieronthecontent at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:22:36 -0600 Subject: Do Dragaerans dance? Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Do Dragaerans dance? On Mon, 22 May 2006 philiph at slac.stanford.edu wrote: > If they didn't, Vlad would have mocked them on the topic already. Then again, if they did, Vlad would have mocked them on the topic. From howard at brazee.net Tue May 23 11:48:53 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:48:53 -0600 Subject: Loiosh Message-ID: <44735915.2040301@brazee.net> I just saw a Ford Explorer with license plate LOIOSH parked 50' from this building. So I thought I would Google Loiosh and am finding interesting hits. Where did this name come from? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 23 11:51:44 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:51:44 -0700 Subject: Loiosh In-Reply-To: <44735915.2040301@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/23/06 11:48 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Loiosh >I just saw a Ford Explorer with license plate LOIOSH parked 50' from >this building. > >So I thought I would Google Loiosh and am finding interesting hits. >Where did this name come from? Lyorn Records to the rescue: http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Meta:Loiosh Majikjon From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com Wed May 24 20:02:27 2006 From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 23:02:27 EDT Subject: 25-28 May 2006 - Orlando, FL Steven Brust. GOH OASIS 19 Message-ID: <419.2306111.31a67843@aol.com> >From http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica OASIS 19 25-28 May 2006 - Orlando, FL (Memorial Day Weekend). Author Guest of Honor: Steven Brust. http://www.oasfis.org/oasfis.html >From http://skzbrust.livejournal.com "Monday, May 22nd, 2006 4:59 am Back from Opus, where I had some of the best food in the history of the Unvierse. On Friday, Eniko (add a long umlaut over that last "o") brought me to her mother's for a Hungarian dinner, featuring an amazing elk perkolt (her husband, Imre, had shot the elk). Then, on Saturday, was the Dragaeran feast, cooked by Eniku, her mother, her father, and her husband. I'll do another entry with the menu. Short version: Ye Gods! I'm never going to eat again. Linux box has made distinct improvements. I need to track down DDB to get a bit of help (it whould only be a bit) to get emacs working right, and then deal with the printer problem. Apparently, the one weak spot with Ubuntu is printer support. Davy has been of much help, but it may mean that I have to bite the bullet and buy a new printer, once I learn which ones Ubuntu doesn't have problems with. We'll see. I leave Thursday for a convention in Orlando. More later. " From books at bofh.com Thu May 25 06:45:01 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 06:45:01 -0700 Subject: Penny Arcade... Message-ID: <20060525134501.GA23182@bofh.com> http://www.penny-arcade.com/ "I've been asked to speak at local lit-con Readiation, whose dangerous- sounding name belies a friendly, relatively tame event. [...] It caters to what you might call the "hardcore reader," a population scientists would study with intensity if they knew it existed. Dog-eared copies from Steven Brust's Taltos Cycle or signed offerings from Lois McMaster Bujold circulate like holy relics." It links "Steven Brust's" to dreamcafe.com, which means I suspect there has been a large increase in the traffic. For those of you not familiar with Penny Arcade, it is arguably the 800 lb gorilla of web comics. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me." - Unknown From scott at cjhunter.com Thu May 25 08:00:50 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:00:50 -0700 Subject: Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <20060525134501.GA23182@bofh.com> Message-ID: <495d01c6800c$0305c330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >For those of you not familiar with Penny Arcade, it is arguably the >800 lb gorilla of web comics. I hope dream caf? has a good hosting plan. It's not unheard of for a website linked by Penny Arcade to have their bandwidth allocation sucked up entirely by the resulting traffic. Accounts without pre-set limits in place have sometimes found themselves facing humungous usage bills on account of the traffic spike. From casey at the-bat.net Thu May 25 10:16:06 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:16:06 -0400 Subject: Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <495d01c6800c$0305c330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <017a01c6801e$e9213680$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Scott Schultz wrote: > I hope dream caf? has a good hosting plan. Last I knew it was on the DD-B plan. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu May 25 10:25:33 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <017a01c6801e$e9213680$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <495d01c6800c$0305c330$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <017a01c6801e$e9213680$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605251025n1deab9b2uad9e1e67a3503ddc@mail.gmail.com> Speaking of dream cafe, shouldn't the "Log" link at the bottom of the page be redirected to LiveJournal? -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu May 25 12:57:58 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:57:58 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is the complete revision of the rules list, which includes the revised spoiler warning text, as well as subject line guidelines, a proposal for on-topic postings, formatting guidelines, etc. Most of this is either verbatim or slightly modified text from the existing rules. The rest is based on my personal understanding of the generally accepted practices for the list. If details for any of this are incorrect, incomplete, or poorly phrased, please respond accordingly. Jon --- Dragaera Mailing List Rules General List information We've created this list, with Steven's support, to provide a central forum for fans of his work to find each other and discuss things. Acceptable Use Subscribers to this list are expected to have read and to abide by the following when posting or responding to messages. Anti-Flame Policy This discussion must be conducted reasonably civilly. In particular, personal attacks are forbidden. Do NOT tell somebody that they're a poo-poo head. You may, if you wish, tell them that their claim to have found Devera on page 184 of _Dragon_ doesn't stand up to examination. On-topic postings "On topic" material for this list includes general discussion among fans of Steven Brust, Paarfi, and the world of Dragaera; moderate amounts of "community" discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore. Discussion of Steven?s non-Dragaera works is on-topic for this list, however be sure to read the ?Spoilers & Spoiler Warnings? section below. If a discussion thread goes completely away from topics relating to Brust?s work, or at least literary topics in general, it may be continued in private by the list members involved, but should not continue to be posted to the entire list beyond a reasonable point. Formatting Guidelines When replying to a message on the list, relevant portions of the previous message should be quoted. The *entire* message should generally not be quoted, unless you're responding to each part of it. New material should be placed *below* the old material it's responding to, not above. ?Top Posting?, or placing new text above quoted material should be avoided. (Note that this is the default behavior of many mail clients.) In other words, normal Usenet quoting conventions should be observed. Line lengths should be limited to less than 80 characters (70 is a better number, to allow for some buildup of quoting). Subject Line Guidelines Subject lines help list subscribers track topics they are interested in. As the volume of mail on the list can vary greatly from day to day, it is important to maintain subject lines that correspond, more or less, to the topic under discussion. Since most messages posted to the list are replies, the subject lines tend to be populated by most mail clients using a "RE:" prefix. If (as often happens) the conversation begins to drift away from the original point of discussion, it is appropriate to change the subject line to reflect this. It is usually a good idea to include the previous subject line in parentheses at the end of the new subject line, so that people can continue to follow the same thread. Example: "The honing of Vlad (WAS Re: Great Weapons)" Topics concerning the administration and/or general use of the mailing list (eg. Questions about list etiquette, spoiler warnings, formatting guidelines, etc.) should be prefaced by the use of "Meta" in the beginning of the subject line. Example: "Meta: Is discussion of X on-topic?" or "Meta: What is the proper format of spoiler warnings?" Spoilers & Spoiler Warnings In general, it should be assumed that most readers of this list will be familiar with the basic characters and general world of Dragaera. When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations from the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in the subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and _The Viscount of Adrilankha_. It is essential to include spoiler warnings when discussing virtually any topic related to a book recently published by Steven Brust. ("Recent" in this case means within 6 months of the release of the paperback edition. Currently [May-06] there are none, but _Dzur_ is forthcoming, [August-06].) Examples of appropriate spoiler warnings: "The best thief in Dragaera? (Orca Spoilers)" or "The undead and Dark Water (Athyra Spoilers)". When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good number) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail client to display the spoiler text by accident. Spoiler warnings should be used with greater discipline when discussing Steven's non-Dragaera works, such as _Agyar_, _Freedom & Necessity_, _The Gypsy_, _To Reign in Hell_, and also _Brokedown Palace_ which has been out of print for many years. Spoiler warnings should also be used when making revealing references to works by other authors, including books, short stories, movies, or plays that list members may not be familiar with. Fan Fiction While Steven doesn't hate fan fiction on principle, he doesn't want to host it on the official web site or mailing list, so please don't send any. File Attachments Do not send file attachments to the list. Especially, do not send binary files to the list. Do not send HTML to the list. Send plain text messages to the list. All those other things will be stripped off by the software running the list. (Technical details: MIME multipart/alternative is fine, so long as there is a text/plain part; that part will be passed through and the rest stripped.) (AOL users: that's what current AOL software does by default [as of 15-Apr-2002] so you shouldn't have trouble posting). Subscriber Information Only list members may post to this list (this is primarily a spam-prevention measure). To subscribe, send email to , and respond to the confirmation message you will receive. (The confirmation message makes it much harder for somebody to subscribe you to this list as a "joke".) To unsubscribe, send email to from the address you want unsubscribed, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive there. To send your message to all the subscribers on the list, send it to . You must be a subscriber to the list yourself to do this. To communicate just with the Lord of the Keys, email your message to . To get help on the various commands the list management software supports, send email to . (Technicalities: this list is run using ezmlm+idx). Archive and Book Searches The posts to this list are archived and are publicly available via email and on the web. Previous posts are archived in both a searchable (http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/) and sortable (http://lists.dd-b.net/pipermail/dragaera/) format. Many of the Dragaera novels are full-text searchable at http://dragaera.info/booksearch Amazon.com Search Inside? Amazon.com also provides full-text searches for almost all of Steven's books, including the non-Dragaera novels. This is often a useful resource when referring to particular passages of the books within the context of list messages. This search is available by using the ?Search Inside?? feature on the appropriate page for each particular book. A list of Steven?s books available on Amazon.com can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/103-9953899-0684665?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=steven+brust&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go Other resources The following are useful informational sites that may useful as references for researching topics discussed on this list (Note: These sites are not spoiler-free. You have been warned.) + Cracks & Shards (http://cracksandshards.com/) Observations on Dragaera by Mark A. Mandel + Alex's Dragaera Page (http://www.panix.com/~alexx/brust.html) A Brust Fan Site. Includes the famous Dragaera Timeline. + Bryann Newell's Dragaeran Geography Site ( http://www.bryann.net/brust.html) Speculative maps and general information on Dragaeran geography + Lyorn Records Wikicity (http://dragaera.wikia.com/) The power of Wiki comes to Dragaera. Excellent general info site. Heavy Spoilage factor. Credits Day-to-day operation is handled by the "Lord of the Keys" (see _500 Years After_). All decisions of the LotK are final until he changes his mind. The current [8-Jun-2002] Lord of the Keys is Felix Strates . The home page for this list is http://dragaera.info/dragaera-list/. Steven's web site is at http://www.dreamcafe.com This mailing list, and the related web site, is a project of Corwin Brust, David Dyer-Bennet, and Felix Strates, with the support of Steven Brust. -------------- next part -------------- From howard at brazee.net Fri May 26 04:51:55 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 05:51:55 -0600 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft Message-ID: <4476EBDB.7040309@brazee.net> On 5/25/2006 1:57 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations > from > the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in > the > subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts > revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and > _The Viscount of Adrilankha_. It's not obvious to me what the spoiler is in this last one. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri May 26 06:40:00 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 06:40:00 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: <4476EBDB.7040309@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/26/06 04:51 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft >On 5/25/2006 1:57 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations >> from >> the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in >> the >> subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts >> revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and >> _The Viscount of Adrilankha_. > >It's not obvious to me what the spoiler is in this last one. Well, it's not just one or two big thing the way it is with _Orca_ and _Issola_, and applies mostly to _Sethra Lavode_, rather than the first two volumes of VoA. Consider: a) VoA is the third of the Khaavren romances, there is therefore a lot of build-up to the events in VoA in general. b) SL is the third volume of VoA, and the one with all the resolution, so there's a lot of build-up to the events in SL in particular. c) The body count at the end of SL is rather high, including some rather important figures. d) SL is (at present) the most recent Dragaera work (and will remain so until August when it will be only be 2 years old (Hardcover) and 1 year old (paperback)). e) Events at the end of SL concern those who must not be named, and include conversations with the gods, both of which relate to other facts from other books that might be considered spoilers. While no one of these factors (except maybe (c)) is really enough to require spoilers by itself, add them all up and I'd say they're still probably justified. But that's one opinion, and I'm happy to go with the group consensus on this one. After all, I've read VoA, so you can't spoil it for *me*. Jon From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri May 26 08:36:20 2006 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (Charles Sumner) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:36:20 -0400 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20060526112558.021533a8@camail.harvard.edu> At 12:57 PM 5/25/2006 -0700, Jon wrote: >[re: adding spoiler warnings] This most notably concerns certain facts >revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and _The >Viscount of Adrilankha_. Given your other comments, I'd recommend changing _The Viscount of Adrilankha_ to _Sethra Lavode_ because 1) that's where the meat of the spoilable things are and 2) since there's no specific book titled _The Viscount of Adrilankha_ it might help avoid some confusion from new readers. You could also list it as "_Sethra Lavode_ (aka volume three of _The Viscount of Adrilankha_)" if you wanted to keep the TVoA reference. >When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the >spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, >it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good >number) I agree with the other folks who thought this should read something like "...several blank lines, 17 is a popular number." Charley "In my fantasy world, we have pie." Satchel Pooch - "Get Fuzzy" From howard at brazee.net Fri May 26 08:45:26 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:45:26 -0600 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20060526112558.021533a8@camail.harvard.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060526112558.021533a8@camail.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <44772296.7000702@brazee.net> Or in particular, say "The latest book - which currently is _Sethra Lavode_, even when the latest book's spoilers are not major plot twists". I really see 1? spoilers in Dragaerian novels, and neither is in the Viscount of Adrilanka series, so the guidelines need to be better defined. Charles Sumner wrote: >At 12:57 PM 5/25/2006 -0700, Jon wrote: >>[re: adding spoiler warnings] This most notably concerns certain facts >>revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and _The >>Viscount of Adrilankha_. > >Given your other comments, I'd recommend changing _The Viscount of >Adrilankha_ to _Sethra Lavode_ because 1) that's where the meat of the >spoilable things are and 2) since there's no specific book titled _The >Viscount of Adrilankha_ it might help avoid some confusion from new >readers. You could also list it as "_Sethra Lavode_ (aka volume three of >_The Viscount of Adrilankha_)" if you wanted to keep the TVoA reference. > >>When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the >>spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, >>it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is usually a good >>number) > >I agree with the other folks who thought this should read something like >"...several blank lines, 17 is a popular number." > >Charley > > >"In my fantasy world, we have pie." >Satchel Pooch - "Get Fuzzy" > > > > > > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri May 26 09:58:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:58:22 -0700 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: <44772296.7000702@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/26/06 08:45 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft >Or in particular, say "The latest book - which currently is _Sethra >Lavode_, even when the latest book's spoilers are not major plot twists". > >I really see 1? spoilers in Dragaerian novels, and neither is in the >Viscount of Adrilanka series, so the guidelines need to be better defined. --- >Given your other comments, I'd recommend changing _The Viscount of >Adrilankha_ to _Sethra Lavode_ because 1) that's where the meat of the >spoilable things are and 2) since there's no specific book titled _The >Viscount of Adrilankha_ it might help avoid some confusion from new >readers. You could also list it as "_Sethra Lavode_ (aka volume three of >_The Viscount of Adrilankha_)" if you wanted to keep the TVoA reference. --- How's this? --- In general, it should be assumed that most readers of this list will be familiar with the basic characters and general world of Dragaera. When mentioning specific plot points, especially major revelations from the later works it is considered polite to place a spoiler warning in the subject line of the message. This most notably concerns certain facts revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ and _Sethra Lavode_. It is essential to include spoiler warnings when discussing virtually any topic related to a book recently published by Steven Brust. ("Recent" in this case usually means within 6 months of the release of the paperback edition, but the "Most Recently" published book usually still qualifies. At this time [05-06] this is _Sethra Lavode_.) Examples of appropriate spoiler warnings: "The best thief in Dragaera? (Orca Spoilers)" or "The undead and Dark Water (Athyra Spoilers)". When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases where the spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the message, it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (17 is a popular number for some reason) at the top of your message to make it less likely for a mail client to display the spoiler text by accident. Spoiler warnings should be used with greater discipline when discussing Steven's non-Dragaera works, such as _Agyar_, _Freedom & Necessity_, _The Gypsy_, _To Reign in Hell_, and also _Brokedown Palace_ which has been out of print for many years. Spoiler warnings should also be used when making revealing references to works by other authors, including books, short stories, movies, or plays that list members may not be familiar with. From bryann at bryann.net Fri May 26 11:05:47 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:05:47 -0500 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003701c680ef$0416cce0$6501a8c0@dell> > c) The body count at the end of SL is rather high, including > some rather important figures. I agree this is spoiler material. I think my enjoyment of the book would have been different (although not necessarily worse) had I known. For what it's worth, I rank the major spoilers as: 1. Greater Revelation of Orca 2. Sethra Lavode 3. Issola 4. Lesser Revelation of Orca And I'm not even sure #4 really counts. The events in Teckla/Phoenix are a much bigger spoiler if you've only read Jhereg or Yendi. Bryan From pulmon at mac.com Fri May 26 19:59:07 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:59:07 -0400 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: <44772296.7000702@brazee.net> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060526112558.021533a8@camail.harvard.edu> <44772296.7000702@brazee.net> Message-ID: Top post! Top Post! On May 26, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > Or in particular, say "The latest book - which currently is _Sethra > Lavode_, even when the latest book's spoilers are not major plot > twists". > > I really see 1? spoilers in Dragaerian novels, and neither is in > the Viscount of Adrilanka series, so the guidelines need to be > better defined. > > > Charles Sumner wrote: > >> At 12:57 PM 5/25/2006 -0700, Jon wrote: >>> [re: adding spoiler warnings] This most notably concerns certain >>> facts >>> revealed late in _Orca_, and many of the later events in _Issola_ >>> and _The >>> Viscount of Adrilankha_. >> >> Given your other comments, I'd recommend changing _The Viscount of >> Adrilankha_ to _Sethra Lavode_ because 1) that's where the meat of >> the spoilable things are and 2) since there's no specific book >> titled _The Viscount of Adrilankha_ it might help avoid some >> confusion from new readers. You could also list it as "_Sethra >> Lavode_ (aka volume three of _The Viscount of Adrilankha_)" if you >> wanted to keep the TVoA reference. >> >>> When writing a message marked with a spoiler warning, in cases >>> where the >>> spoiler itself would normally occur very early in the text of the >>> message, >>> it is a good idea to provide several blank lines (15-20 is >>> usually a good >>> number) >> >> I agree with the other folks who thought this should read >> something like "...several blank lines, 17 is a popular number." >> >> Charley >> >> >> "In my fantasy world, we have pie." >> Satchel Pooch - "Get Fuzzy" >> >> listinfo/dragaera >> >> >> > > listinfo/dragaera From casey at the-bat.net Sat May 27 14:03:25 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:03:25 -0400 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060526112558.021533a8@camail.harvard.edu> <44772296.7000702@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4478BE9D.4040800@the-bat.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > Top post! Top Post! More importantly, neither he, nor you, even bothered to edit out the list footer. This is symptomatic of most top postings, which often neglect to quote only that portion of a message to which they are replying. From howard at brazee.net Sat May 27 15:10:00 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 16:10:00 -0600 Subject: META: Proposed rules page first complete draft In-Reply-To: <4478BE9D.4040800@the-bat.net> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20060526112558.021533a8@camail.harvard.edu> <44772296.7000702@brazee.net> <4478BE9D.4040800@the-bat.net> Message-ID: <4478CE38.9060505@brazee.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: >Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > >>Top post! Top Post! >> >> >More importantly, neither he, nor you, even bothered to edit out the >list footer. This is symptomatic of most top postings, which often >neglect to quote only that portion of a message to which they are replying. > > The reason for top posting, is for those occasions where we want to make a large quote and don't want to force others to page down to read the reply. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon May 29 06:05:17 2006 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:05:17 +0000 Subject: Metrics Message-ID: So, what, in your collective opinion, do you guys think is the most commonly stated phrase or concept in the books? My money's on "Shut up, Loiosh". My second opinion is "Work". From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon May 29 10:23:06 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:23:06 -0400 Subject: Metrics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Er, elaborate a bit for the comphrensively challenged? Would "dagger in the eye" count? On 5/29/06, J C wrote: > > > So, what, in your collective opinion, do you guys think is the most > commonly > stated phrase or concept in the books? > > My money's on "Shut up, Loiosh". > > My second opinion is "Work". > > > From dosanjh at gmail.com Mon May 29 12:06:03 2006 From: dosanjh at gmail.com (Sonu Dosanjh) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 12:06:03 -0700 Subject: Tukko Message-ID: <252e9da40605291206h2fbc4f6bpe0b96a056ee29304@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I have recently joined this list and am sure you all have already probably discussed this but I was recently reading Issola again and was again filled irritation that I don't know anything about Tukko. Do we know how old is he, how did he come to Sethra Lavode's abode. What exactly does he do for her etc? I think in Paarfi's works, he had talked about where Tukko actually tells Sethra which book to read and has apparently wrote atleast one book, but "my memory sometimes plays tricks on me" Also, in Issola, Sethra says that there is one more lavode left but he is not ready yet.... do we know, who she is talking about? or should be make the obvious conclusion that it is Vlad? -- Thanks, Sonu Dosanjh From casey at the-bat.net Mon May 29 15:30:46 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:30:46 -0400 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: <252e9da40605291206h2fbc4f6bpe0b96a056ee29304@mail.gmail.com> References: <252e9da40605291206h2fbc4f6bpe0b96a056ee29304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <447B7616.80709@the-bat.net> Sonu Dosanjh wrote: > Hi, > > I have recently joined this list and am sure you all have already Welcome. > probably discussed this but I was recently reading Issola again and > was again filled irritation that I don't know anything about Tukko. Do > we know how old is he, how did he come to Sethra Lavode's abode. What > exactly does he do for her etc? This has indeed been the topic of some discussion. You could review what's been hashed out using the old list search at http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/. That only covers through mid-2005 when the listadmin had a major server crash, but it should be sufficient to get you up to speed. > Also, in Issola, Sethra says that there is one more lavode left but he > is not ready yet.... do we know, who she is talking about? or should > be make the obvious conclusion that it is Vlad? Not yet. I will say that the Dzur prologue that was presented in a convention chapbook a while back sheds some light on the subject. Casey From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon May 29 16:44:28 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 19:44:28 -0400 Subject: The book of the seven wizards Message-ID: I think I noticed another reference to this book. In Teckla, Sheryl (sp) mentions there was a book she never understood no matter how many times she read it. Is it possible? Or am I simply channeling the JLU Question? From howard at brazee.net Tue May 30 06:41:04 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:41:04 -0600 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: <003d01c683ea$c7931950$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <003d01c683ea$c7931950$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <447C4B70.2010902@brazee.net> I believe Steve said that he started off with Sethra having a generic servant and then realized what was missing. I like learning a bit here and a bit there with the expectation that when Steve has a good story ready that fits in, we will get to know Turko better. But if my expectation is wrong - I have enjoyed glimpsing him so far. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 30 07:28:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:28:54 -0700 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: <447C4B70.2010902@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 06:41 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Tukko >I believe Steve said that he started off with Sethra having a generic >servant and then realized what was missing. > >I like learning a bit here and a bit there with the expectation that >when Steve has a good story ready that fits in, we will get to know >Turko better. > >But if my expectation is wrong - I have enjoyed glimpsing him so far. I've been working on a fanfic story, and realized that one of the characters I've envisioned would work as a really cool backstory for Tukko. I'm a bit hesitant to write it that way, however, since I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn more about the "real" Tukko in one of the future stories. He seems to have been set up for greater things than we have seen so far. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue May 30 07:53:14 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:53:14 -0700 Subject: The book of the seven wizards References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Eastman" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 4:44 PM Subject: The book of the seven wizards > I think I noticed another reference to this book. > > In Teckla, Sheryl (sp) mentions there was a book she never understood no > matter how many times she read it. > > Is it possible? Or am I simply channeling the JLU Question? It is mentioned in Athyra, along with some of the passages, IIRC. jeff - is currently AFB From kieronthecontent at gmail.com Tue May 30 13:17:32 2006 From: kieronthecontent at gmail.com (kieronthecontent at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:17:32 -0500 Subject: Tukko Message-ID: Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could Tukko and Sethra be the same person? The Necromancer or Verra (I think) discuss being able to be in two different places at the same time. Does it have to be two different planes, or not? Why would Sethra need a servant? Does Sethra really need help with anything? Even something as mundane as getting drinks? If Tukko is Sethra, Tukko is just like having an extra arm. She has guests, wants to be a good host, and goes to prepare food and wine (as Tukko). Meanwhile, as a good host, she also stays and talks with them (as Sethra). Maybe this is why he calls Sethra "young one". He's just flattering herself. Could also be why Sethra says that he is "younger than I am". She didn't create him (from herself) until later. Kiera could be the same way. She lives her own life, but it's just another Sethra. She still has access to all of the powers of Dzur Mountain, but she chooses to never use them. In this situation, if they were to meet, Sethra could obviously say, Kiera is "younger than I am". I'm sure there's a ton of textev eliminating this theory, but I can't come up with any right now. Please feel free to destroy this theory. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 30 13:22:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:22:57 -0700 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: Message-ID: kieronthecontent at gmail.com Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 01:17 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Tukko > Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could Tukko and >Sethra be the same person? The Necromancer or Verra (I think) discuss being >able to be in two different places at the same time. Does it have to be two >different planes, or not? Well, doesn't Sethra specifically say in /Issola/, that she cannot be in two places at once? Of course, it's always possible that Sethra may have been lying. Majikjon From kieronthecontent at gmail.com Tue May 30 13:23:58 2006 From: kieronthecontent at gmail.com (kieronthecontent at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:23:58 -0500 Subject: SORRY about the SPOILER Message-ID: I'm sorry about the huge spoiler in that last email. I got myself excited about the theory, and forgot that what I was writing was a spoiler. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue May 30 14:40:22 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:40:22 -0700 Subject: SORRY about the SPOILER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: kieronthecontent at gmail.com Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 01:23 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject SORRY about the SPOILER >I'm sorry about the huge spoiler in that last email. I got myself excited >about the theory, and forgot that what I was writing was a spoiler. Just to be clear, I didn't see anything in that last message that really required a spoiler warning... All the books talking about Tukko have been out for long enough to not matter, and this doesn't touch on any of the major revelations in either the Vlad stories, or the Khaavren Romances, as it's about a side character. With all the discussion about spoilers and spoiler warnings, I suppose it's easy to see why people are a little edgy about it, but this message seems to be well in-bounds. SPECULATION about things in the stories are not spoilers. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 30 14:46:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SORRY about the SPOILER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > SPECULATION about things in the stories are not spoilers. But read Davdi's speculation at your peril... Also note that speculation based on early knowledge of _Dzur_ should be spoilered. From scs at di.org Tue May 30 15:12:09 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:12:09 -0400 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060530221209.GD6408@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:22:57PM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could Tukko and > >Sethra be the same person? The Necromancer or Verra (I think) discuss being > >able to be in two different places at the same time. Does it have to be two > >different planes, or not? > > Well, doesn't Sethra specifically say in /Issola/, that she cannot be in > two places at once? > > Of course, it's always possible that Sethra may have been lying. Or speaking elipticly; polylocation may be required but not sufficient for godhood. On the other hand, given the conversations between Sethra and Tukko it seems very unlikely they're a case of bilocation. -- "While you may be at your core 'tenderhearted.' I do not doubt your, or any womans, ability to reach in, wrench out a mans heart and talk him into taking a bite. I mean that in a good way." -'fortunecookie', to Hillary at http://bbs.chrismoore.com/viewtopic.php?p=82531 From lincicum at comcast.net Tue May 30 15:31:04 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:31:04 -0700 Subject: SORRY about the SPOILER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447CC7A8.7090507@comcast.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Just to be clear, I didn't see anything in that last message that > really required a spoiler warning... Ooops. Re-reading the original post, I see the greater _Orca_ spoiler is buried in there, I guess I just didn't read it carefully the first time. Yeah, that should have had a spoiler warning, I guess. Carry on. Majikjon From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue May 30 15:45:08 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060530224508.15426.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Sethra Lavode Spoilers. If you haven't read it, stop now. Standard 17-space warning gap starts now. kieronthecontent at gmail.com wrote: Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could Tukko ... I hadn't actually been thinking at all about Tukko; for me, he is who (or what) he is to Vlad, which is Sethra's servant. (I, for one, count Paarfi as being as much of a historian as, well, Dumas -- certainly there are characters in his books who are actual historical/living figures, but he fictionalizes and sensationalizes virtually everything they do; his 'histories' are historical fiction, with little useful relation to the 'real world'.) However, presuming Paarfi has -any- notion of the truth of Tukko, i.e. his bit to Sethra in 'Lord of Castle Black' to nudge her to give Blackwand to Morrolan as well as what he was doing during Sethra's most active portion of battle in 'Sethra Lavode', then your semi-translation above might bear some fruit. How about ... Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur == Embodiment of the Mountain Dzur, or perhaps something similar? Thus, naturally, he would in more ways than one be her 'servant'. That Tukko's memory might be better than Sethra's would then make sense -- if he is the passive/monitoring embodiment, as she is the active user of its power, then he of course would have greater 'file storage'. Then he monitors the Dzur Mountain innards while Sethra's powered up, watching lightning zap and things spin etc. etc. -- just as a good techie would, making sure all the machines are working while the Boss lays the smack down. Sethra Lavode is connected to the power that lies under Dzur Mountain; Iceflame embodies that power, and serves as a conduit and transformer between Dzur Mountain and her, letting Sethra direct the massive amount of energies it contains/directs/represents without, basically, burning her out like a 20-watt bulb connected to a 15,000 watt line. For proper balancing, there needs to be a third leg to that triangle, and Tukko might as well be it. And it -would- explain his crack about being older than she is. Now to figure out who the hell built the crap under Dzur Mountain... --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue May 30 16:01:43 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:01:43 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20060530224508.15426.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060530224508.15426.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605301601s3791b9b7o251fb8abef29d35f@mail.gmail.com> A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the Serioli. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue May 30 16:34:30 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:34:30 -0700 Subject: Speculation, no spoilers Message-ID: On 5/30/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 30 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > SPECULATION about things in the stories are not spoilers. > > > But read Davdi's speculation at your peril... > > Who, me? What did I do now? Speaking of Tukko, I just now had the amusing pararectal notion that he might resemble (or have been subconciously inspired by) Lurch from the Addams Family. He does at least have the same taciturnity. Sethra bears a certain resemblance to Morticia, I think. Iceflame might be Thing. After all, it's Dzur Mountain "to hand". From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue May 30 16:42:55 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0605301601s3791b9b7o251fb8abef29d35f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060530234255.2508.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Maximilian Wilson wrote: A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the Serioli. Not necessarily true. Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, the power under Dzur Mountain must have been -accessed- by the Serioli in the past -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was originally -created- by the Serioli. It could have been created by the original settlers and forgotten, been taken over and improved upon by the Jenoine, then had the access been given to the Serioli for the express purpose of linking all that massive power to a highly portable 'dispenser'. Does not, however, mean that the Serioli had to have created it. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue May 30 16:44:18 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:44:18 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20060530234255.2508.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <2ddbda5f0605301601s3791b9b7o251fb8abef29d35f@mail.gmail.com> <20060530234255.2508.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605301644u6e5325d0s16489f85857a632@mail.gmail.com> Hmmm. Point taken. On 5/30/06, Felix Eisen wrote: > > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the > Serioli. > > Not necessarily true. Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, the > power under Dzur Mountain must have been -accessed- by the Serioli in the > past -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was originally -created- > by the Serioli. It could have been created by the original settlers and > forgotten, been taken over and improved upon by the Jenoine, then had the > access been given to the Serioli for the express purpose of linking all that > massive power to a highly portable 'dispenser'. > > Does not, however, mean that the Serioli had to have created it. > -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Tue May 30 16:48:39 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:48:39 -0400 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: <20060530221209.GD6408@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20060530221209.GD6408@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On May 30, 2006, at 6:12 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:22:57PM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > wrote: > >>> Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could >>> Tukko and >>> Sethra be the same person? The Necromancer or Verra (I think) >>> discuss being >>> able to be in two different places at the same time. Does it have >>> to be two >>> different planes, or not? >> >> Well, doesn't Sethra specifically say in /Issola/, that she cannot >> be in >> two places at once? >> >> Of course, it's always possible that Sethra may have been >> lying. > > Or speaking elipticly; polylocation may be required but not > sufficient for > godhood. > > On the other hand, given the conversations between Sethra and Tukko it > seems very unlikely they're a case of bilocation. I think that Tukko is a god. He seems to have at least two personae: Chaz and Tukko. Chaz is humorous while Tukko is humorless. These different manifestations have not been seen together, but then again, it may be that the reporting is at fault, rather than the reality. "Dri" sounds derivative of "dra", the honorific applied to Pei'ans, the race that trains its people to be gods. From howard at brazee.net Tue May 30 17:06:34 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:06:34 -0600 Subject: Tukko Message-ID: <447CDE0A.7040801@brazee.net> On 4:12 PM Steve Simmons wrote: > Or speaking elipticly; polylocation may be required but not > sufficient for > godhood. > > On the other hand, given the conversations between Sethra and Tukko it > seems very unlikely they're a case of bilocation. There are some words that don't come up every day in my conversation at work. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue May 30 17:09:41 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speculation, no spoilers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 5/30/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 30 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > SPECULATION about things in the stories are not spoilers. > > > > > > But read Davdi's speculation at your peril... > > > > Who, me? What did I do now? I won't ruin the compliment by explaining it. From howard at brazee.net Tue May 30 17:09:38 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 18:09:38 -0600 Subject: Tukko Message-ID: <447CDEC2.20508@brazee.net> On 5:48 PM Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > I think that Tukko is a god. He seems to have at least two personae: > Chaz and Tukko. Chaz is humorous while Tukko is humorless. These > different manifestations have not been seen together, but then again, > > it may be that the reporting is at fault, rather than the reality. Even though at first glance he appears closer to being a demon - it's interesting to take a second look. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue May 30 17:43:41 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:43:41 -0400 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0605301644u6e5325d0s16489f85857a632@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0605301601s3791b9b7o251fb8abef29d35f@mail.gmail.com> <20060530234255.2508.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> <2ddbda5f0605301644u6e5325d0s16489f85857a632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would believe that a conversation somewhat similar to this took place; Jenoine 1 (also, The One Entirely Too Bright For His Own Good): Hey, remember that old power station we made and that our former servants took from us? Under the big cat? Jenoine 2 (also, straight man): Yes, what about it? Jenoine 1: What if we got one of the blue guys to make a weapon to use against the gods that had a direct link to all the power it produced? Wouldn't it be deliciously ironic? Jenoine 2: .... And thus Iceflame was born! On 5/30/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > Hmmm. Point taken. > > On 5/30/06, Felix Eisen wrote: > > > > Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the > > Serioli. > > > > Not necessarily true. Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, the > > power under Dzur Mountain must have been -accessed- by the Serioli in > the > > past -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was originally > -created- > > by the Serioli. It could have been created by the original settlers and > > forgotten, been taken over and improved upon by the Jenoine, then had > the > > access been given to the Serioli for the express purpose of linking all > that > > massive power to a highly portable 'dispenser'. > > > > Does not, however, mean that the Serioli had to have created it. > > > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From kieronthecontent at gmail.com Tue May 30 17:52:38 2006 From: kieronthecontent at gmail.com (kieronthecontent at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:52:38 -0500 Subject: Tukko In-Reply-To: References: <20060530221209.GD6408@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: That is an excellent point, since we definitely know that Zelazny was an influence of Brust's. I think there is just too much speculation, and we might have to wait for further evidence. I like the prospect of Kiera, Tukko, and Sethra all being alive, separate entities, and the same person. I think I'm choosing a theory because of the appeal, rather than the validity. On 5/30/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > On May 30, 2006, at 6:12 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:22:57PM -0700, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > > wrote: > > > >>> Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could > >>> Tukko and > >>> Sethra be the same person? The Necromancer or Verra (I think) > >>> discuss being > >>> able to be in two different places at the same time. Does it have > >>> to be two > >>> different planes, or not? > >> > >> Well, doesn't Sethra specifically say in /Issola/, that she cannot > >> be in > >> two places at once? > >> > >> Of course, it's always possible that Sethra may have been > >> lying. > > > > Or speaking elipticly; polylocation may be required but not > > sufficient for > > godhood. > > > > On the other hand, given the conversations between Sethra and Tukko it > > seems very unlikely they're a case of bilocation. > > I think that Tukko is a god. He seems to have at least two personae: > Chaz and Tukko. Chaz is humorous while Tukko is humorless. These > different manifestations have not been seen together, but then again, > it may be that the reporting is at fault, rather than the reality. > > "Dri" sounds derivative of "dra", the honorific applied to Pei'ans, > the race that trains its people to be gods. > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 06:22:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:22:55 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20060530224508.15426.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 03:45 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Tukko >> kieronthecontent at gmail.com wrote: >> Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur = Enchantress of Mountain Dzur? Could Tukko ... > > > How about ... > > Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur == Embodiment of the Mountain Dzur, or perhaps something similar? This came up a while back in a discussion about Tukko's article on the wiki. To quote the inestimable Davdi of Silverrock at the time: "The phrase might very well mean "Avatar of Mount Dzur" or "Breaks his fast on Dzur", or something like that. " It could also mean "Wears a hat shaped like Mount Dzur" or "Once saw a funny shaped rock on Mount Dzur". Or, perhaps it simply means, "Servant of the ruler of Dzur Mountain"... Telling us exactly nothing. Speculation about what his name means is somewhat amusing, but not very revealing. Unless, of course, someone here speaks the ancient tongue of Dragon (Dzur? Other?) and can translate for us. Anyone? Bhueller? Frye? Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 06:23:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:23:57 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0605301601s3791b9b7o251fb8abef29d35f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 04:01 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the Serioli. And if it weighs the same as a duck, it *must* be a witch. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 06:28:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:28:55 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20060530234255.2508.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 04:42 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) >Maximilian Wilson wrote: > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the Serioli. > > Not necessarily true. Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, the power under Dzur Mountain must have been -accessed- by the Serioli in >the past -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was originally -created- by the Serioli. It could have been created by the original >settlers and forgotten, been taken over and improved upon by the Jenoine, then had the access been given to the Serioli for the express >purpose of linking all that massive power to a highly portable 'dispenser'. > > Does not, however, mean that the Serioli had to have created it. Nor do we know for sure that the Serioli created Iceflame himself (herself?). Yes, they are said to have "created the Great Weapons", and Iceflame is a Great Weapon, so by transitive property, A+B=C, Iceflame was created by Serioli. However, everything about Sethra Lavode is an enigma, and I have to believe it's at least possible that her weapon, in particular, is an exception. On a side note, do we know what gender Iceflame is? I recall that Blackwand is feminine, and Pathfinder is indeterminate, but cannot recall if a gender has ever been ascribed to Iceflame. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 31 07:05:08 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:05:08 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Felix Eisen" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:28 AM Subject: Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > On a side note, do we know what gender Iceflame is? I recall that > Blackwand is feminine, and Pathfinder is indeterminate, but cannot recall > if a gender has ever been ascribed to Iceflame. > > Majikjon That may be because most of the beings who have encountered Iceflame closely enough to tell shuffled off this mortal coil shortly thereafter. jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 07:27:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:27:26 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/31/06 07:05 AM To cc Subject Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) >----- Original Message ----- >From: > >> On a side note, do we know what gender Iceflame is? I recall that >> Blackwand is feminine, and Pathfinder is indeterminate, but cannot recall >> if a gender has ever been ascribed to Iceflame. >> >> Majikjon > >That may be because most of the beings who have encountered Iceflame closely >enough to tell shuffled off this mortal coil shortly thereafter. A point. However, both Vlad and Morrolan have been close enough to tell. Paarfi, it is almost certain, has *not*. Unless, of course, you subscribe to Philip's theories. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed May 31 07:38:10 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:38:10 -0600 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) Message-ID: <447DAA52.8020003@brazee.net> On 8:27 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >>>> if a gender has ever been ascribed to Iceflame. > >>>> > >>>> Majikjon > > > >> > >>That may be because most of the beings who have encountered > Iceflame > > closely > > >>enough to tell shuffled off this mortal coil shortly thereafter. > > > A point. > > However, both Vlad and Morrolan have been close enough to tell. I don't think it's a matter of looking under the blade's skirt. Communing with the blade requires getting closer. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 31 07:49:02 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:49:02 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jeff" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:27 AM Subject: Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > >> On a side note, do we know what gender Iceflame is? I recall that > >> Blackwand is feminine, and Pathfinder is indeterminate, but cannot > recall > >> if a gender has ever been ascribed to Iceflame. > >> > >> Majikjon > > > >That may be because most of the beings who have encountered Iceflame > closely > >enough to tell shuffled off this mortal coil shortly thereafter. > > A point. > > However, both Vlad and Morrolan have been close enough to tell. > > Paarfi, it is almost certain, has *not*. > > Unless, of course, you subscribe to Philip's theories. > Majikjon Vlad has just started noticing the differences between Blackwand and Pathfinder, and he has been exposed (literally) to them far more often than Iceflame. And Morrolan probably wouldn't deign to share his observations with any of the narrator we have heard from. jeff From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed May 31 07:51:28 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:51:28 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: snip> >To >Dragaera >cc > >Subject >Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > > > > > > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the >Serioli. > >And if it weighs the same as a duck, it *must* be a witch. She turned me into a newt!!!!! James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN I don't know, but she turned me into one! >Majikjon > From scott at cjhunter.com Wed May 31 08:08:25 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:08:25 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <447DAA52.8020003@brazee.net> Message-ID: <0bd901c684c4$10cdff70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I don't think it's a matter of looking under the blade's skirt. >Communing with the blade requires getting closer. Vlad would seem to be in a position to tell now. Joining with Godslayer seemed to give him a much higher awareness of the other Great Weapons, though I suppose this might have been a singular occurrence. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 08:22:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:22:50 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <0bd901c684c4$10cdff70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/31/06 08:08 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject RE: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) >>I don't think it's a matter of looking under the blade's skirt. >>Communing with the blade requires getting closer. > >Vlad would seem to be in a position to tell now. Joining with Godslayer >seemed to give him a much higher awareness of the other Great Weapons, >though I suppose this might have been a singular occurrence. That's my thinking. Of course, Vlad doesn't always tell us everything he notices, and he *was* a bit preoccupied at this point in time, anyway. It may be that Iceflame, like Pathfinder, has no clear sense of gender. I just couldn't remember if we've ever heard Sethra (or Tukko) call Iceflame a "he" or a "she"... Even just in one of the Khaavren romances, this might still be telling. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 08:37:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:37:54 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Louis Eastman" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/30/06 05:43 PM To "Maximilian Wilson" cc Dragaera Subject Re: Tukko >I would believe that a conversation somewhat similar to this took place; > >Jenoine 1 (also, The One Entirely Too Bright For His Own Good): Hey, >remember that old power station we made and that our former servants took >from us? Under the big cat? >Jenoine 2 (also, straight man): Yes, what about it? >Jenoine 1: What if we got one of the blue guys to make a weapon to use >against the gods that had a direct link to all the power it produced? >Wouldn't it be deliciously ironic? >Jenoine 2: .... > >And thus Iceflame was born! Are Serioli blue? Did I miss something? Or is this referring to something else? Majikjon From ike at manor.org Wed May 31 11:44:34 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Metrics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2006, J C wrote: > So, what, in your collective opinion, do you guys think is the most > commonly stated phrase or concept in the books? I'd have to think "Boss" is up there, and IIRC there's lots of frowning and scowling going on too... From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed May 31 12:43:26 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:43:26 +0100 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060531194341.KUTJ19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> > -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > > "Maximilian Wilson" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 05/30/06 04:01 PM > > > > > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the > Serioli. > > And if it weighs the same as a duck, it *must* be a witch. > > Majikjon > But universal truths can only be partially converted! A fact that seems lost on my wife, even the simplest cloth-eared syllogism causes her to flounder...... Mark From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 12:54:37 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:54:37 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20060531194341.KUTJ19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> Message-ID: "Mark Tiller" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/31/06 12:43 PM To , "'Maximilian Wilson'" cc 'Dragaera' Subject RE: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > > "Maximilian Wilson" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 05/30/06 04:01 PM > > > A: Logically, if it's connected to Iceflame, it must have been the > Serioli. > > And if it weighs the same as a duck, it *must* be a witch. > > Majikjon > > >But universal truths can only be partially converted! A fact that seems >lost on my wife, even the simplest cloth-eared syllogism causes her to >flounder...... For example, given the proposition that all fish live underwater, and that all mackrel are fish, my wife will conclude not that all mackrel live underwater, but that if she buys kippers it will not rain, or that trout live in trees, or even that I do not love her anymore... Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 31 12:55:54 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:55:54 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: On 5/31/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > >I don't think it's a matter of looking under the blade's skirt. > >Communing with the blade requires getting closer. > > Vlad would seem to be in a position to tell now. Joining with Godslayer > seemed to give him a much higher awareness of the other Great Weapons, > though I suppose this might have been a singular occurrence. > Perhaps, but note also that he describes his sensing of BW & PF's respective personalities before he has GS. It has been my idea that it was the link that SB made across the world-barriers to each of those GWs which initiated the process of SB "waking up" into its more powerful form, and this then lead to SB becoming part of GS. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed May 31 12:59:57 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:59:57 -0700 Subject: Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20060531194341.KUTJ19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> References: <20060531194341.KUTJ19763.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0605311259i5d5c8841p4fb488eeff1c2472@mail.gmail.com> You are Iskaral Pust and I claim my five pounds! -Max (Well, I think.) On 5/31/06, Mark Tiller wrote: > > But universal truths can only be partially converted! A fact that seems > lost on my wife, even the simplest cloth-eared syllogism causes her to > flounder...... > > > Mark > -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed May 31 13:01:11 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: random OT verse (was RE: Tukko) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > that trout live in trees The Tree Bass The tree bass likes a solid perch - Frequents the oak, avoids the birch. Returns to its ancestral lawn Yearly when time comes to spawn. The tree bass. The tree bass huddles in the rain And waits for Someone to explain. It shiver-shimmers in the breeze. Thinks, "Some day I will feel at ease". The tree bass. The tree bass feels an idle whim To find a stream and try to swim Yet knows it's best to not look down. It does the opposite of drown. The tree bass. Come Easter, when the shorn lambs bleat, Its firm and flaky flesh is sweet. The tree bass. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed May 31 13:03:03 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Perhaps, but note also that he describes his sensing of BW & PF's > respective personalities before he has GS. What is this "before" word which you do us the honor of introducing to us? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Wed May 31 13:10:06 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:10:06 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) References: Message-ID: Spoilers off the starboard bow!!! > > > On Wed, 31 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Perhaps, but note also that he describes his sensing of BW & PF's > > respective personalities before he has GS. > > What is this "before" word which you do us the honor of introducing to us? Indeed. When you look at how Spellbreaker was regarded by knowledgeable individuals, it seems that almost everyone knew exactly what he had all along. Except Verra, which I find very odd. jeff - wondering if Spellbreaker was hiding itself from the gods until it bonded with Vlads soul? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 13:26:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:26:31 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Jeff" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/31/06 01:10 PM To cc Subject Re: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) Spoilers off the starboard bow!!! >> >> On Wed, 31 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> > Perhaps, but note also that he describes his sensing of BW & PF's >> > respective personalities before he has GS. >> >> What is this "before" word which you do us the honor of introducing to us? > >Indeed. When you look at how Spellbreaker was regarded by knowledgeable >individuals, it seems that almost everyone knew exactly what he had all >along. Except Verra, which I find very odd. Well, but Verra *did* notice as soon as Vlad showed it to her in /Issola/... Before that, it was probably just her capricious nature that failed to draw her attention to it. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed May 31 13:48:56 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:48:56 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: <447E0138.9050208@brazee.net> On 2:10 PM Jeff wrote: > Indeed. When you look at how Spellbreaker was regarded by > knowledgeable > individuals, it seems that almost everyone knew exactly what he had > all along. Except Verra, which I find very odd. There are times when Verra appears to know just as much as she wants to know. What is it that the Walrus says about who's in charge of words' meanings? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed May 31 14:01:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 14:01:50 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <447E0138.9050208@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 05/31/06 01:48 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) >On 2:10 PM Jeff wrote: >> Indeed. When you look at how Spellbreaker was regarded by >> knowledgeable >> individuals, it seems that almost everyone knew exactly what he had >> all along. Except Verra, which I find very odd. > >There are times when Verra appears to know just as much as she wants to >know. > >What is it that the Walrus says about who's in charge of words' meanings? Or maybe Verra knew all along, but whenever she tried to tell Vlad, he only heard what he was ready to hear? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed May 31 15:01:51 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:01:51 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: <447E124F.5030701@brazee.net> On 3:01 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Or maybe Verra knew all along, but whenever she tried to tell Vlad, > he only heard what he was ready to hear? That's good. Communicating with gods can be interesting. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed May 31 15:18:24 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:18:24 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <027901c68500$21ed6ca0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Okay, I have to admit I have no clue what you guys are talking about. I don't recall anyone of our normal cast knowing Spellbreaker's nature beforehand. The Serioli that Vlad visited with in Morollan's company understood its nature, but neither Vlad nor Morollan really got it. Vlad asks if he means that Spellbreaker is a Great Weapon, to which he answers "not yet"; essentially, explaining that there is/was/will be a weapon known as "Remover of Aspects of Divinity". Despite the obvious hint, neither Vlad nor Morollan draws any connections here that I remember. Verra doesn't bother knowing about things that are outside of her sphere of influence. Once Spellbreaker is brought to her attention, she knows instantly what it is and what Great Weapon it's associated with. Vlad clearly does not. In fact, the drama at the conclusion of Issola relies on his ignorance. Maybe it's just differing viewpoints but IMO Verra was the first (well, second if we count our Serioli friend) to know and understand Spellbreaker, not the last. From lincicum at comcast.net Wed May 31 15:38:34 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:38:34 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <027901c68500$21ed6ca0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <027901c68500$21ed6ca0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <447E1AEA.9020306@comcast.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > Okay, I have to admit I have no clue what you guys are talking about. > > ... > > Maybe it's just differing viewpoints but IMO Verra was the first (well, > second if we count our Serioli friend) to know and understand Spellbreaker, > not the last. > Ah... But Sethra, at least, must have suspected--else why was she so sure that Spellbreaker would be able to find Aliera and Morrolan when they were kidnapped by the J? And IIRC, Morrolan got the information he wanted from the Serioli, but then wouldn't talk to Vlad about it after (well, Vlad was too proud to ask him about it, but the results are the same). We don't know if the information Morrolan got (at that point, remember, Pathfinder hadn't even re-emerged yet) had anything to do with Godslayer (or, more likely Pathfinder) or not, but my Imperials say it's a fairly strong possibility. How much did he "know"? Unclear. But I would refer you to Sethra's answer to that same question at the end of /Issola/ for a pretty close approximation. Majikjon From debby_corey at alltel.net Wed May 31 16:32:48 2006 From: debby_corey at alltel.net (Debby Corey) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 19:32:48 -0400 Subject: Dragoncon? References: <20060530170007.70A6FE941C@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <00c201c6850a$d564d480$6502a8c0@DEBBY> Hello all! It's been about four years since my last internet search for all things Brust so imagine my surprise when I found this list! Yeah! Anyway, I've just come on board so there may be a thread or two out there, but I was wondering if there are any panels or events planned for Dragoncon? I've been several times, and this is my second year working at the con, but I don't remember ever seeing anything about Brust's work. Thanks and I look forward to reading the discussions! Debby From carpovita at earthlink.net Wed May 31 17:03:14 2006 From: carpovita at earthlink.net (carpovita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dragoncon? Message-ID: <5912672.1149120194695.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sadly Dragon generally does not focus on individual writers unless they are McCaffrey or bigger (or dead) as such, to the best of my knowledge, there has not ever nor are there plans at this point for a Brust track or Brustian events at Dragon. Your best bet for something like that is to watch his site for shows he is going to as they will generally have at least a couple Brust panels -----Original Message----- >From: Debby Corey >Sent: May 31, 2006 7:32 PM >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Dragoncon? > >Hello all! > >It's been about four years since my last internet search for all things Brust so >imagine my surprise when I found this list! Yeah! > >Anyway, I've just come on board so there may be a thread or two out there, but I >was wondering if there are any panels or events planned for Dragoncon? I've been >several times, and this is my second year working at the con, but I don't >remember ever seeing anything about Brust's work. > >Thanks and I look forward to reading the discussions! > >Debby > > From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 31 21:06:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 00:06:02 -0400 Subject: Dragoncon? In-Reply-To: <00c201c6850a$d564d480$6502a8c0@DEBBY> References: <20060530170007.70A6FE941C@gw.dd-b.net> <00c201c6850a$d564d480$6502a8c0@DEBBY> Message-ID: On 5/31/06, Debby Corey wrote: > > Anyway, I've just come on board so there may be a thread or two out there, but I > was wondering if there are any panels or events planned for Dragoncon? I've been > several times, and this is my second year working at the con, but I don't > remember ever seeing anything about Brust's work. > I know nothing of this Dragoncon (which sounds like something a particularly audacious Yendi might attempt, perhaps), but you might find this page, maintained by the noble wrangler-of-Brust (and sometimes preparer-of-pig-eatin's) to be useful http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica/ From davdisil at gmail.com Wed May 31 21:15:18 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 00:15:18 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/31/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 31 May 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Perhaps, but note also that he describes his sensing of BW & PF's > > respective personalities before he has GS. > > What is this "before" word which you do us the honor of introducing to us? Well, you see, when you have a well-defined sequence of temporal events... Hm. I wioll haven be perceiving a slight problem here... ObScience: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman_diagrams From francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au Thu Jun 1 04:05:36 2006 From: francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au (Francesco Nicoletti) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:05:36 +1000 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447ECA00.8050501@pacific.net.au> However, everything about Sethra Lavode is an enigma, and I have to >believe it's at least possible that her weapon, in particular, is an >exception. >On a side note, do we know what gender Iceflame is? I recall that >Blackwand is feminine, and Pathfinder is indeterminate, but cannot recall >if a gender has ever been ascribed to Iceflame. > >Majikjon > Have we ever seen Sethra draw Iceflame ? Or use it in any way ? We are continually told it is powerful, but do we have any witness describe its use ? Could what we think we know of Iceflame be disinformation? Francesco From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 1 07:49:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:49:32 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <447ECA00.8050501@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: Francesco Nicoletti Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/01/06 04:05 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Iceflame was Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) >Have we ever seen Sethra draw Iceflame ? Or use it in any way ? > We are continually told it is powerful, but do we have any witness >describe its use ? >Could what we think we know of Iceflame be disinformation? Issola, pg 220 (paperback) [cite] "I massaged the arm through the sling for a bit and couldn't even feel it. Sethra drew Iceflame and pointed it out toward the middle of the Sea, staring intently after it. Then she sheathed Iceflame and said, "All Right. Any time now." [/cite] This is Sethra cutting the Jenoine's link to the Lesser Sea--no small task, yet it took seconds. Later, she uses it in the battle with the J who appear to re-establish the link, and there is thunder, lightning, and Vlad comments on the lines of power connecting the weapon to Sethra. Interestingly, however, the only person we've ever seen killed by Iceflame was poor Quion in /Taltos/ -- and that happened "off stage", and it may not even have been Iceflame that did the deed. How powerful is Iceflame? Reports from informed persons say it's on par with the Orb. If we haven't actually seen it used to accomplish anything all that momentous, well, I would counter by saying we haven't *really* seen the Orb do all that much either. In a good story, however, you don't usually see the full extent of a powerful element until the climax of the tale... and there are still many Vlad books to get through. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 1 08:24:14 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:24:14 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <10c801c6858f$710d4370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> An additional, if apocryphal, appearance of Iceflame was during one of the cascade of visions that Vlad often experiences while performing witchcraft. I can't recall which book it was now. Something like "The Dzur hero comes to Dzur mountain and Sethra Lavode rises before him, Iceflame glittering in her hand." Hmmm... In attempting to track down the actual quote listed above, I see that Sethra had drawn Iceflame during the final face-off with Fornia in _Dragon_: "behind them-where she came from, I couldn't say-behind them, mounted, was Sethra Lavode, holding the weapon I knew to be Iceflame." From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 1 08:27:00 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:27:00 -0700 Subject: Alternative Teckla Cover Art? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <10c901c6858f$d3cf3ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> I happened to be perusing the keyword "Brust" on Amazon.com and I came across this entry: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3608935150/qid=1149175524/sr=1-23/ref=sr_1_ 23/002-7951193-3754415?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 Uh, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? What is up with that cover art? Is this a new edition that I've never seen? From mneme at io.com Thu Jun 1 08:42:52 2006 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:42:52 -0500 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <10c801c6858f$710d4370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <10c801c6858f$710d4370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <17535.2812.552645.279978@fnord.io.com> Scott Schultz writes: >An additional, if apocryphal, appearance of Iceflame was during one of the >cascade of visions that Vlad often experiences while performing >witchcraft. We also have reports of Sethra using "her dagger" in Paarfi's work, ie: Sethra Lavode: 5. on Page 269: "... not otherwise moving. There was a flash of golden light, and a sound like the crackling of a fire, and Sethra Lavode appeared, followed closely by the Necromancer , Khaavren, and ... see it." "Well, and?" said Ra. Sethra Lavode raised her dagger, pointing it at the darkness that concealed, contained, or, perhaps was the Jenoine. The darkness appeared to thicken, and, at ..." 6. on Page 270: "... (Chapter the Ninety-Seventh How Sethra Lavode, Not Without A Certain Amount of Assistance From the ... well," said the Enchantress. Sethra held out before her the dagger called Iceflame, and, as if it were a tangible enemy, struck the darkness. At the same instant, the Necromancer spread ..." 7. on Page 271: "... SETHRA VERSUS THE JENOINE / 289 a language full of vowels ... reveal almost nothing of this contest. Sethra Lavode plunged her dagger into the darkness, the Necromancer made arcane gestures before it, and, in almost the drawing of a breath, the peculiar ..." -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Did you know, if you increment enough, you /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ get an extra digit?" "I knew," weeps Six. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ "We knew. But we had forgotten." '---''(_/--' (_/-' From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:25 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:44:25 -0400 Subject: Alternative Teckla Cover Art? In-Reply-To: <10c901c6858f$d3cf3ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <10c901c6858f$d3cf3ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/1/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > I happened to be perusing the keyword "Brust" on Amazon.com and I came > across this entry: > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3608935150/ > > > Uh, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? What is up with that cover art? Is this a new > edition that I've never seen? > It's the deutsch translation: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3608935150 From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:57:29 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:29 -0400 Subject: Alternative Teckla Cover Art? In-Reply-To: References: <10c901c6858f$d3cf3ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/1/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > It's the deutsch translation: > > http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3608935150 > More German: http://www.klett-cotta.de/autoren_b.html?&uid=1040&cHash=430459f7af http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Brust Amusingly enough, there's a link in the de.wikipedia to "Die Deutsche Bibliothek" - "ddb.de" - which confused me for a moment because the initials are the same as that of our noble mailing list administrator. Only without the hyphen. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:33:23 2006 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:33:23 +0000 Subject: Yuck Message-ID: I suddenly had an idea and I didn't like it, so though it pains me to do so, I will post it to the forum so that Steve does not write it, as that seems to be the general (possibly bendy) rule. It entered my mind that long-lived as witches may be, and as seemingly invulnerable as Vlad appears to be now as well, nevertheless, Steve has written himself out of a story unless he can quickly convince us that both of these facts are shown to be "lower point" talents than they appear to be at first blush. However, it also occurs to me that Sethra is a vampire, so in the hopes of heading off a campy out to these problems, I post the following thought: Can Sethra make other vampires? Can she make a vampire out of, say, the wielder of a Great Weapon? The only possible benefit of this plot development is the funny points one gets for having a vampire named Vlad whose last name is Taltos, and who has absolutely nothing to do with the Tepes(ian?) line. Jon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 1 11:46:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:46:31 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "J C" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/01/06 11:33 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Yuck >I suddenly had an idea and I didn't like it, so though it pains me to do so, >I will post it to the forum so that Steve does not write it, as that seems >to be the general (possibly bendy) rule. /You're only saying that so it won't happen that way./ /Shut up, Loiosh./ >Jon From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 12:08:20 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:08:20 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606011208o1f3ab5f6v36bb71dd35e489bd@mail.gmail.com> On 6/1/06, J C wrote: > > It entered my mind that long-lived as witches may be, and as seemingly > invulnerable as Vlad appears to be now as well, nevertheless, Steve has > written himself out of a story unless he can quickly convince us that both > of these facts are shown to be "lower point" talents than they appear to > be > at first blush. > I don't think Vlad comes across as invulnerable now; as he's fond of sayin, "Anyone can be assassinated." It's just that now, if he's killed, his soul won't get eaten, although he'll still be dead. Apparently, this disincentive is insufficient to keep Vlad away from Valibar's. It's Just That Good(TM). ;) -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 1 12:20:44 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:20:44 -0700 Subject: Clybru or Clybur, one and the same? A question for Steve. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In researching character names for the Dramatis Personae page on the Lyorn Records Wiki, I've come across what I suspect may be a typo. The name "Clybru" is used by Pel in TPG (page 162, paperback) to name the chief of Mathemeticians. The name "Clybur" is used by Sethra Lavode in a conversation with Tazendra in /Paths of the Dead/ (page 195, paperback): "My dear Dzurlord, you reason like Clybur himself, only--" Since the chief of Mathemeticians will likely be a person who reasons rather well, and the fact that these two names are different only due to the transposition of a single letter, I theorize that they may be referring, in fact, to the same individual, and that one of these instances may simply be a typo. My question, then, is twofold. Are these two references to the same individual, and, if so, which of these, if either, is the correct spelling? Majikjon From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jun 1 15:16:48 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:16:48 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060601181031.025e2108@cox.net> At 02:33 PM 6/1/2006, J C wrote: >I suddenly had an idea and I didn't like it, so though it pains me >to do so, I will post it to the forum so that Steve does not write >it, as that seems to be the general (possibly bendy) rule. > >It entered my mind that long-lived as witches may be, and as >seemingly invulnerable as Vlad appears to be now as well, >nevertheless, Steve has written himself out of a story unless he can >quickly convince us that both of these facts are shown to be "lower >point" talents than they appear to be at first blush. > >However, it also occurs to me that Sethra is a vampire, so in the >hopes of heading off a campy out to these problems, I post the >following thought: >Can Sethra make other vampires? Can she make a vampire out of, say, >the wielder of a Great Weapon? > >The only possible benefit of this plot development is the funny >points one gets for having a vampire named Vlad whose last name is >Taltos, and who has absolutely nothing to do with the Tepes(ian?) line. If Sethra is a vampire, she's not one in the classical Bram Stoker sense. She appears to be a unique individual, and her age as given is so great as to transcend humanity from either Eastern or Dragaeran view. There's no evidence of her preying on others for her sustenance (and being undead, one wonders what her actual needs are, anyway?), either, just the mention that she normally doesn't eat. One wonders about [greater spoiler], however. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 15:20:46 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:20:46 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060601181031.025e2108@cox.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20060601181031.025e2108@cox.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606011520h655840f1o25cefbabe611b0db@mail.gmail.com> [Greater Orca spoiler] . . . . . . . . . Vlad says she "only picked at her food." IIRC, that was one of the things that gave her away. -Max On 6/1/06, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > At 02:33 PM 6/1/2006, J C wrote: > > >I suddenly had an idea and I didn't like it, so though it pains me > >to do so, I will post it to the forum so that Steve does not write > >it, as that seems to be the general (possibly bendy) rule. > > > >It entered my mind that long-lived as witches may be, and as > >seemingly invulnerable as Vlad appears to be now as well, > >nevertheless, Steve has written himself out of a story unless he can > >quickly convince us that both of these facts are shown to be "lower > >point" talents than they appear to be at first blush. > > > >However, it also occurs to me that Sethra is a vampire, so in the > >hopes of heading off a campy out to these problems, I post the > >following thought: > >Can Sethra make other vampires? Can she make a vampire out of, say, > >the wielder of a Great Weapon? > > > >The only possible benefit of this plot development is the funny > >points one gets for having a vampire named Vlad whose last name is > >Taltos, and who has absolutely nothing to do with the Tepes(ian?) line. > > If Sethra is a vampire, she's not one in the classical Bram Stoker > sense. She appears to be a unique individual, and her age as given > is so great as to transcend humanity from either Eastern or Dragaeran > view. There's no evidence of her preying on others for her > sustenance (and being undead, one wonders what her actual needs are, > anyway?), either, just the mention that she normally doesn't > eat. One wonders about [greater spoiler], however. > > > -- > Regards, Pete > pgranzeau at cox.net > > -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From debby_corey at alltel.net Thu Jun 1 15:29:11 2006 From: debby_corey at alltel.net (Debby Corey) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:29:11 -0400 Subject: Dragoncon References: <20060601170100.AF403E94E3@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <001201c685ca$cf89a430$6502a8c0@DEBBY> Too bad about Dragoncon - I would think he would fit in on some of the author panels especially with the rich, detailed world he created. I picked up Jhereg in the mid 1980's at a used bookstore and haven't stopped reading the series since! And thanks for the link Davdi - I can see there's nothing in the southern part of the US that I can take a quick road trip to. :( Debby Message: 16 Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:03:14 -0400 (EDT) From: carpovita at earthlink.net Subject: Re: Dragoncon? To: Debby Corey , dragaera at dragaera.info Message-ID: <5912672.1149120194695.JavaMail.root at elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sadly Dragon generally does not focus on individual writers unless they are McCaffrey or bigger (or dead) as such, to the best of my knowledge, there has not ever nor are there plans at this point for a Brust track or Brustian events at Dragon. Your best bet for something like that is to watch his site for shows he is going to as they will generally have at least a couple Brust panels From: "Davdi Silverrock" I know nothing of this Dragoncon (which sounds like something a particularly audacious Yendi might attempt, perhaps), but you might find this page, maintained by the noble wrangler-of-Brust (and sometimes preparer-of-pig-eatin's) to be useful http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica/ From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 15:37:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:37:20 -0400 Subject: Clybru or Clybur, one and the same? A question for Steve. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/1/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > In researching character names for the Dramatis Personae page on the Lyorn > Records Wiki, I've come across what I suspect may be a typo. > > The name "Clybru" is used by Pel in TPG (page 162, paperback) to name the > chief of Mathemeticians. > > The name "Clybur" is used by Sethra Lavode in a conversation with Tazendra > in /Paths of the Dead/ (page 195, paperback): > For some reason I thought that "Klyburr" was yet another variant, but I appear to be mistaken. Although thanks to the Dramatis Personae, I see that there is a Kliburr (who lead the Carriage House Uprising), and a Kl'burra, who was a Dzur. I strongly suspect that Clybur or Clybru was/is an Athyra. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jun 1 16:02:21 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:02:21 -0700 Subject: Clybru or Clybur, one and the same? A question for Steve. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447F71FD.80104@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > For some reason I thought that "Klyburr" was yet another variant, but > I appear to be mistaken. Although thanks to the Dramatis Personae, I > see that there is a Kliburr (who lead the Carriage House Uprising), > and a Kl'burra, who was a Dzur. I strongly suspect that Clybur or > Clybru was/is an Athyra. > Since he was apparently Head of Mathematics in the first year of Tortaalik's reign (I'm assuming here that Pel was referring to the *current* head of mathematics, of course) it would make sense that he was appointed during Cherova III's reign (an Athyra), so it would be logical to assume that he is also of that House. Plus, of course, Mathematics is a useful sort of thing to study, so many Athyra likely specialize in it. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jun 1 17:19:11 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:19:11 -0600 Subject: Dragoncon Message-ID: <447F83FF.6010805@brazee.net> On 4:29 PM Debby Corey wrote: > Too bad about Dragoncon - I would think he would fit in on some of > the author > panels especially with the rich, detailed world he created. I > picked up Jhereg > in the mid 1980's at a used bookstore and haven't stopped reading the > series since! I've stopped reading the series bunches of times. From ash2110 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 1 19:07:27 2006 From: ash2110 at yahoo.com (Anthony Wetherby) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606011520h655840f1o25cefbabe611b0db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060602020727.76641.qmail@web52709.mail.yahoo.com> We only ever really here rumors about her being undead. so if a great weapon does what ever it can to perserve the life of its bearer couldn't iceflame be the source of her being undead. She probably draws all the energy she needs from iceflame and dzur mountain. A vampire yes but an arcane vampire. Anthony --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. From francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au Fri Jun 2 02:07:45 2006 From: francesco.nicoletti at pacific.net.au (Francesco Nicoletti) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:07:45 +1000 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447FFFE1.8040604@pacific.net.au> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Francesco Nicoletti >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >06/01/06 04:05 AM > >To >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com >cc >dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject >Iceflame was Tukko (Sethra Lavode Spoilers) > > > > > > >>Have we ever seen Sethra draw Iceflame ? Or use it in any way ? >>We are continually told it is powerful, but do we have any witness >>describe its use ? >>Could what we think we know of Iceflame be disinformation? >> >> > >Issola, pg 220 (paperback) > >[cite] > >"I massaged the arm through the sling for a bit and couldn't even feel it. >Sethra drew Iceflame and pointed it out toward the middle of the Sea, >staring intently after it. Then she sheathed Iceflame and said, "All >Right. Any time now." > >[/cite] > >This is Sethra cutting the Jenoine's link to the Lesser Sea--no small >task, yet it took seconds. > >Later, she uses it in the battle with the J who appear to re-establish the >link, and there is thunder, lightning, and Vlad comments on the lines of >power connecting the weapon to Sethra. > >Interestingly, however, the only person we've ever seen killed by Iceflame >was poor Quion in /Taltos/ -- and that happened "off stage", and it may >not even have been Iceflame that did the deed. >How powerful is Iceflame? Reports from informed persons say it's on par >with the Orb. If we haven't actually seen it used to accomplish anything >all that momentous, well, I would counter by saying we haven't *really* >seen the Orb do all that much either. In a good story, however, you don't >usually see the full extent of a powerful element until the climax of the >tale... and there are still many Vlad books to get through. > >Majikjon > > > > I missed the Issola reference. I must reread it more carfully, I misremembered that it was the Necromancer who was tasked with cutting the link. As for the Orb, that seems to be the other artifact left at a setting of stun, but at least we have seen it (if we trust Parfi) help cause untold mahem & disaster. . Francesco From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 2 06:15:24 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 06:15:24 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <20060602020727.76641.qmail@web52709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthony Wetherby Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/01/06 07:07 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Yuck >We only ever really here rumors about her being undead. Well, Vlad (and Paarfi) report it as being pretty much a fact, and it is strongly implied in both TPG and FHYA that this is the cause of the "Lavode Scandal" and Sethra's banishment from court during the late 17th cycle. So, if this is just a "rumor", then so is the existence of Vlad, the existence of Sethra herself, the existence of Dragaera as a whole, etc. True, we never see her drink blood, or turn herself into a bat, or become mist, or any other overt signs of vampirism (other than an exceptionally long life--but she apparently had this even before she became undead), but I am convinced that she could do any of these things if she had reason to. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 2 06:37:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 06:37:52 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <447FFFE1.8040604@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: Francesco Nicoletti Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/02/06 02:07 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I missed the Issola reference. I must reread it more carfully, I >misremembered that it was the >Necromancer who was tasked with cutting the link. Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: The Necromancer searches for (and finds) the link, Sethra arranges to have the Necromancer block the J from re-establishing said link once it is cut, Sethra cuts the link, the J show up to re-establish, violence ensues, spoilers happen, the J re-establish their link, Godslayer starts kicking butt, the J bug out--overcoming the Necromancer's block by brute force, and Adron terminates the J's re-established link, presumably for good. >As for the Orb, that seems to be the other artifact left at a setting of >stun, but at least we have seen it (if we trust Parfi) >help cause untold mahem & disaster. . Given the purported power of the Orb, Dzur Mountain (and thus, Iceflame which embodies its power), and Godslayer, it would not really be a good thing to ever see their full power in action. You'd be likely to lose some important things... Like the Dragaeran continent, the planet, the entire star system, or perhaps even a good chunk of that quadrant of the galaxy. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 2 06:44:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 06:44:32 -0700 Subject: Yuck Message-ID: Howard Brazee 06/02/06 06:32 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Subject Re: Yuck >On 7:15 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> True, we never see her drink blood, or turn herself into a bat, or >> become >> mist, or any other overt signs of vampirism (other than an >> exceptionally >> long life--but she apparently had this even before she became >> undead), but >> I am convinced that she could do any of these things if she had >> reason to. > >She doesn't fit stereotypical vampires in what we've seen - but you are convinced that in the stuff we haven't seen, she must fit one of our current vampire traditions. I'm not so >confident. You misunderstand. I simply say that she *could* do these things (change into a bat, become mist, live for aeons, etc) if she wanted to. But she's Sethra Lavode. She could probably have done all these things *before* she became undead. Other vampires in Dragaera (assuming there are any) may or may not be as talented. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 08:45:44 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:45:44 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Super Orca Spoilers Remember that Vlad mentioned Loiosh being able to tell the undead with one sniff, while Buddy could, and Sethra did not refute that statement...so, yes, she's dead. Also, she went to Deathgate. Also proof of deadness. On 6/2/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Howard Brazee > 06/02/06 06:32 AM > > To > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > cc > > Subject > Re: Yuck > > > > > >On 7:15 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> True, we never see her drink blood, or turn herself into a bat, or > >> become > >> mist, or any other overt signs of vampirism (other than an > >> exceptionally > >> long life--but she apparently had this even before she became > >> undead), but > >> I am convinced that she could do any of these things if she had > >> reason to. > > > >She doesn't fit stereotypical vampires in what we've seen - but you are > convinced that in the stuff we haven't seen, she must fit one of our > current vampire traditions. I'm not so >confident. > You misunderstand. > > I simply say that she *could* do these things (change into a bat, become > mist, live for aeons, etc) if she wanted to. > > But she's Sethra Lavode. > > She could probably have done all these things *before* she became undead. > > Other vampires in Dragaera (assuming there are any) may or may not be as > talented. > > Majikjon > From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 08:53:53 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:53:53 -0700 Subject: Yuck References: Message-ID: > Super Orca Spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, she went to Deathgate. Also proof of deadness. > (Thinks about Vlad, Morrolan, and Zerika. . . . .) um. . . jeff -not disputing the point, merely cautioning you on your stance. From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 09:05:02 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:05:02 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2be528100606020905w7c255e52m2428889ce219b583@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/06, Jeff wrote: > > > > > Super Orca Spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, she went to Deathgate. Also proof of deadness. > > > (Thinks about Vlad, Morrolan, and Zerika. . . . .) um. . . > > jeff > -not disputing the point, merely cautioning you on your stance. Taltos: Vlad: "I'm trying to think of a polite way to say 'Drop Dead'." Sethra: "Don't bother; I died before the Interregum. Will you take the job?" Definately one of my favorite exchanges. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 2 10:21:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:21:07 -0700 Subject: Clybru or Clybur, one and the same? A question for Steve. Message-ID: Please forgive this re-posting, due to the problems Steve's been having with his email, I thought I'd send this out again in the event it got deleted before he could see it. --- In researching character names for the Dramatis Personae page on the Lyorn Records Wiki, I've come across what I suspect may be a typo. The name "Clybru" is used by Pel in TPG (page 162, paperback) to name the chief of Mathemeticians: "You reason like Clybru, the chief of Mathemeticians" The name "Clybur" is used by Sethra Lavode in a conversation with Tazendra in /Paths of the Dead/ (page 195, paperback): "My dear Dzurlord, you reason like Clybur himself, only--" Since the chief of Mathemeticians will likely be a person who reasons rather well, and due to the fact that these two names are different only due to the transposition of a single letter pair, and the name is used in exactly the same way in both instances, I theorize that they may be referring, in fact, to the same individual, and that one of these instances may simply be a typo. My question, then, is twofold. Are these two references to the same individual, and, if so, which of these, if either, is the correct spelling? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 2 10:27:47 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:27:47 -0600 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <2be528100606020905w7c255e52m2428889ce219b583@mail.gmail.com> References: <2be528100606020905w7c255e52m2428889ce219b583@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44807513.9020002@brazee.net> Joy Nicholson wrote: ..... Do you know that SpamCop listed your origin to be rejected? From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 2 10:31:11 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:31:11 -0600 Subject: Yuck Message-ID: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> On 10:05 AM Joy Nicholson wrote: > Vlad: "I'm trying to think of a polite way to say 'Drop Dead'." > Sethra: "Don't bother; I died before the Interregum. Will you take > the job?" Amusing, but this whole idea of what is dead or not has not been explained. If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and flies like a duck - why say it's a cat? So what does "dead" mean? From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:21:17 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:21:17 -0700 Subject: Yuck References: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Brazee" To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Yuck > > Amusing, but this whole idea of what is dead or not has not been explained. > > If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and flies like a duck - why > say it's a cat? > > So what does "dead" mean? Didn't Sethra and the Necormancer discuss that when they first met? jeff - as always, far AFB From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jun 2 11:24:27 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:24:27 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> References: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4480825B.5070404@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > > Amusing, but this whole idea of what is dead or not has not been > explained. > > If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and flies like a duck - > why say it's a cat? > > So what does "dead" mean? It's a matter of engineering. Majikjon From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:51:33 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:51:33 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> Message-ID: see below >From: Howard Brazee >To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" >Subject: Re: Yuck >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:31:11 -0600 > >snip> > > >If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and flies like a duck - why >say it's a cat? > >So what does "dead" mean? yes :) I think, however that if we re-read Issola, that we may find "those . . . whose usefulness has not expired with their death, and are sent out into the world once more as un-dead: I (Sethra Lavode) became one of these some time ago." (not exact quote, AFB at the moment.) I think this clearly implies that undead are not re-incarnated (a la Dolivar/Vlad or Kieron's Shaman Brother/Aliera), but are also not "living"- the Necromancer is referred to as undead, but I can't recall she is termed a vampire- except perhaps by implication. Again in Issola "The two undead women faced each other . . . although Sethra was a vampire, the Necromancer looked more like one- wasted, pale, some hideous disease." (again not an exact quote) So undead= not "living", useful to gods, doesn't eat much (Sethra), may be a vampire (Sethra). James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:59:44 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:59:44 -0700 Subject: Yuck References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Griffin" To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Yuck > >So what does "dead" mean? > > yes :) > > I think, however that if we re-read Issola, that we may find "those . . > whose usefulness has not expired with their death, and are sent out into the > world once more as un-dead: I (Sethra Lavode) became one of these some time > ago." (not exact quote, AFB at the moment.) I think this clearly implies > that undead are not re-incarnated (a la Dolivar/Vlad or Kieron's Shaman > Brother/Aliera), but are also not "living"- the Necromancer is referred to > as undead, but I can't recall she is termed a vampire- except perhaps by > implication. Again in Issola "The two undead women faced each other . . > although Sethra was a vampire, the Necromancer looked more like one- wasted, > pale, some hideous disease." (again not an exact quote) > > So undead= not "living", useful to gods, doesn't eat much (Sethra), may be a > vampire (Sethra). > > James Griffin > > Still Another Vlad faN > Well, if I am making the right assumption, the Necromancer "created" the undead body that this portion of her personality in habits in Dragaera. Sethra, on the other hand, wears her own reanimated corpse. That could account for the difference. jeff -here lies my beloved ZOE , somewhat less attractive now that she is all corpsefied and gross. . . From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 2 12:10:39 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:10:39 -0600 Subject: Yuck Message-ID: <44808D2F.6000105@brazee.net> On 12:51 PM James Griffin wrote: > So undead= not "living", useful to gods, doesn't eat much (Sethra), > may be a vampire (Sethra). And someone who is just waiting to be re-born is simply dead (even though they walk and talk and fit the definition of "alive"). And Westerners who are dead are really dead. From chica at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 2 12:58:34 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:58:34 -0700 Subject: Dragoncon &c In-Reply-To: <20060602170010.DC5ECE960B@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060602170010.DC5ECE960B@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <4480986A.5080001@dreamcafe.com> dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: Message: 7 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:29:11 -0400 From: "Debby Corey" Subject: Re: Dragoncon Too bad about Dragoncon - I would think he would fit in on some of the author panels especially with the rich, detailed world he created. I picked up Jhereg in the mid 1980's at a used bookstore and haven't stopped reading the series since! And thanks for the link Davdi - I can see there's nothing in the southern part of the US that I can take a quick road trip to. :( Debby ------------------------------ From: "Davdi Silverrock" I know nothing of this Dragoncon (which sounds like something a particularly audacious Yendi might attempt, perhaps), but you might find this page, maintained by the noble wrangler-of-Brust (and sometimes preparer-of-pig-eatin's) to be useful http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica/ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Debby, The convention schedule for 2007 is still pretty open. :> You can always point out to your local cons that you'd love to see a certain author... Never hurts to ask. Some cons even add a Toastmaster to their GoH list - when the con is large enough. Sorry that nothing this year worked out for you. :/ * * * Davdi, Thank you for pointing out the link. Much appreciated! --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 14:07:20 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:07:20 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <44808D2F.6000105@brazee.net> Message-ID: And wear purple robes. (sometimes) James Griffin Still Another Vlad faN >From: Howard Brazee >To: "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" >Subject: Re: Yuck >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:10:39 -0600 > >On 12:51 PM James Griffin wrote: >> So undead= not "living", useful to gods, doesn't eat much (Sethra), >> may be a vampire (Sethra). > >And someone who is just waiting to be re-born is simply dead (even though >they walk and talk and fit the definition of "alive"). And Westerners >who are dead are really dead. > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 2 14:14:45 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:14:45 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "James Griffin" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/02/06 02:07 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Yuck >>From: Howard Brazee >> >>On 12:51 PM James Griffin wrote: >>> So undead= not "living", useful to gods, doesn't eat much (Sethra), >>> may be a vampire (Sethra). >> >>And someone who is just waiting to be re-born is simply dead (even though >>they walk and talk and fit the definition of "alive"). And Westerners >>who are dead are really dead. >> > >And wear purple robes. (sometimes) Actually, the ones in purple robes are not waiting around to reincarnate, they are in service to the LoJ and aren't *allowed* to reincarnate until their service is up. The ones who are just "waiting around" are in the "Place of Waiting Souls" (which may be in the Paths or the Halls, but Vlad doesn't make this clear). Or else they are Ghosts. Vlad has a digression in /Teckla/ where he talks about this (in reference to the Ghost of Franz), which I believe includes the very first reference in the books (by publishing date, anyway) to the "Book of the Seven Wizards". Majikjon From bryann at bryann.net Fri Jun 2 15:44:43 2006 From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:44:43 -0500 Subject: Opusfest Art Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003301c68696$23d62150$6501a8c0@dell> It appears that Opusfest has come and gone; what became of the Dragaeran Tarot art contests? Are the winners posted anywhere online where we can view them, or do we have to wait until the Tarot/RPG are published? Bryan From dosanjh at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 16:30:03 2006 From: dosanjh at gmail.com (Sonu Dosanjh) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:30:03 -0700 Subject: IIRC??? Message-ID: <252e9da40606021630o163b24e1x55deda9d07372b51@mail.gmail.com> What is this IIRC that y'all insist upon writing after every few emails? Taltosian From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 16:30:17 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:30:17 +0200 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I missed the Issola reference. I must reread it more carfully, I > >misremembered that it was the > >Necromancer who was tasked with cutting the link. > >Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: > >The Necromancer searches for (and finds) the link, Sethra arranges to have >the Necromancer block the J from re-establishing said link once it is cut, >Sethra cuts the link, the J show up to re-establish, violence ensues, >spoilers happen, the J re-establish their link, Godslayer starts kicking >butt, the J bug out--overcoming the Necromancer's block by brute force, >and Adron terminates the J's re-established link, presumably for good. > > >Majikjon Adron? From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 16:35:47 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:35:47 +0200 Subject: IIRC??? In-Reply-To: <252e9da40606021630o163b24e1x55deda9d07372b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If I Recall Correctly it can also mean If I Remember Correctly. >From: "Sonu Dosanjh" >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: IIRC??? >Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:30:03 -0700 > >What is this IIRC that y'all insist upon writing after every few emails? > >Taltosian From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Jun 2 16:36:27 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:36:27 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> References: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060602193330.02634188@cox.net> At 01:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: >On 10:05 AM Joy Nicholson wrote: >> Vlad: "I'm trying to think of a polite way to say 'Drop Dead'." >> Sethra: "Don't bother; I died before the Interregum. Will you take >> the job?" > > >Amusing, but this whole idea of what is dead or not has not been explained. > >If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and flies like a duck - >why say it's a cat? > >So what does "dead" mean? She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Jun 2 16:39:54 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:39:54 -0400 Subject: IIRC??? In-Reply-To: <252e9da40606021630o163b24e1x55deda9d07372b51@mail.gmail.co m> References: <252e9da40606021630o163b24e1x55deda9d07372b51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060602193902.025ec610@cox.net> At 07:30 PM 6/2/2006, Sonu Dosanjh wrote: >What is this IIRC that y'all insist upon writing after every few emails? If I recall correctly, it stands for Illegitimate Inbred Roman Catholic. 0r not. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 17:21:08 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:21:08 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060602193330.02634188@cox.net> References: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060602193330.02634188@cox.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606021721off6f8c0rb80b68e0b9ba47c3@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/06, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. > Although I wouldn't recommend going through her pockets to look for spare change. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jun 2 17:30:18 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:30:18 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4480D81A.5050109@comcast.net> Martin Wohlert wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) >> >> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >I missed the Issola reference. I must reread it more carfully, I >> >misremembered that it was the >> >Necromancer who was tasked with cutting the link. >> >> Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: >> >> The Necromancer searches for (and finds) the link, Sethra arranges to >> have >> the Necromancer block the J from re-establishing said link once it is >> cut, >> Sethra cuts the link, the J show up to re-establish, violence ensues, >> spoilers happen, the J re-establish their link, Godslayer starts kicking >> butt, the J bug out--overcoming the Necromancer's block by brute force, >> and Adron terminates the J's re-established link, presumably for good. >> >> >> Majikjon > > Adron? I have, apparently, already said too much. If you have a chance, read /The Phoenix Guards/ and /Five Hundred Years After/. Many apologies that spoiler warnings for these did not appear on the message; I figured, perhaps erroneously, that an /Issola/ warning was enough. Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 2 17:33:06 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 20:33:06 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606021721off6f8c0rb80b68e0b9ba47c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <448075DF.8050008@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060602193330.02634188@cox.net> <2ddbda5f0606021721off6f8c0rb80b68e0b9ba47c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7889BB5A-08F2-4C5E-92A3-7B51D18FDF9C@mac.com> On Jun 2, 2006, at 8:21 PM, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > On 6/2/06, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> >> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. >> > > Although I wouldn't recommend going through her pockets to look for > spare > change. > > -Max She died, but the gods determined that she could do more good if she returned, rather than going to the Halls. She turned down godhead. (I think that is spelled with one "o") From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 17:33:50 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:33:50 +0200 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <4480D81A.5050109@comcast.net> Message-ID: Jon Lincicum wrote: >>>Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Issola Spoilers) >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >I missed the Issola reference. I must reread it more carfully, I >>> >misremembered that it was the >>> >Necromancer who was tasked with cutting the link. >>> >>>Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: >>> >>>The Necromancer searches for (and finds) the link, Sethra arranges to >>>have >>>the Necromancer block the J from re-establishing said link once it is >>>cut, >>>Sethra cuts the link, the J show up to re-establish, violence ensues, >>>spoilers happen, the J re-establish their link, Godslayer starts kicking >>>butt, the J bug out--overcoming the Necromancer's block by brute force, >>>and Adron terminates the J's re-established link, presumably for good. >>> >>> >>>Majikjon >> >>Adron? >I have, apparently, already said too much. > >If you have a chance, read /The Phoenix Guards/ and /Five Hundred Years >After/. Many apologies that spoiler warnings for these did not appear on >the message; I figured, perhaps erroneously, that an /Issola/ warning was >enough. > >Majikjon No worries, I've read those. I just wasn't aware/convinced/something that Adron did any cutting. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 17:36:42 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:36:42 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606021736j11e2cf6r80d35132f1768dfa@mail.gmail.com> [Issola spoilers???] On 6/2/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > > Adron? > "Daddy did it," says Aliera. Does that ring a bell? It's at the end of chapter 16, I believe. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 17:40:09 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:40:09 +0200 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <7889BB5A-08F2-4C5E-92A3-7B51D18FDF9C@mac.com> Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >She died, but the gods determined that she could do more good if she >returned, rather than going to the Halls. She turned down godhead. (I >think that is spelled with one "o") Is that a Nitzer Ebb allusion I see before me? "and so they came and they called him godhead cried out his name and the life that he led so then he knew what he had to say hold out his hand and show them the way godhead" Sorry, heading terribly off topic here... From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 2 17:42:54 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <4480D81A.5050109@comcast.net> References: <4480D81A.5050109@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: > I have, apparently, already said too much. I for one don't see spoiler warning _I_, out in ppb so long now, esp. for a minor surprise, esp. after "Synopsis etc." From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jun 2 17:54:27 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:54:27 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4480DDC3.9090103@comcast.net> Martin Wohlert wrote: > No worries, I've read those. I just wasn't aware/convinced/something > that Adron did any cutting. Well, that's Aliera's story, anyway. Myself, I'm convinced that Mario actually did it, and Aliera was just covering. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jun 2 17:56:00 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:56:00 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: <4480D81A.5050109@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4480DE20.8030305@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > >>>> Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: >>>> > > >> I have, apparently, already said too much. >> > > > I for one don't see spoiler warning _I_, out in ppb so long now, > esp. for a minor surprise, esp. after "Synopsis etc." > Well, the way he phrased his response had me worried there, for a sec. Go figure, if I'm a bit jumpy on the subject right now. Majikjon From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 18:00:47 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:00:47 +0200 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <4480DE20.8030305@comcast.net> Message-ID: Jon Lincicum wrote: >To: Philip Hart >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:56:00 -0700 > >Philip Hart wrote: >>On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> >>>>>Synopsis of the end events of /Issola/, just to be clear: >>>>> >> >> >>>I have, apparently, already said too much. >>> >> >> >>I for one don't see spoiler warning _I_, out in ppb so long now, >>esp. for a minor surprise, esp. after "Synopsis etc." >> >Well, the way he phrased his response had me worried there, for a sec. > >Go figure, if I'm a bit jumpy on the subject right now. > Well, if I'd had something spoiled for me I'd either don't say anything, just cry myself to sleep, or, alternatively, I'd go ballistic. :) However, even after a re-read (or is it two?) I still think that the the ending of _Issola_ is quite woolly... From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jun 2 18:17:05 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:17:05 -0700 Subject: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4480E311.9040306@comcast.net> Martin Wohlert wrote: > However, even after a re-read (or is it two?) I still think that the > the ending of _Issola_ is quite woolly... It does go by rather quickly, and /Issola/ of all the Vlad books, is, to date, the one that is most dependent on having read the other books (esp /Dragon/, /TPG/ and /FHYA/) to fully appreciate. Perhaps /Dzur/ will eclipse it in this respect. I think Steve may have given up on the idea of writing the books in such a way that the order does not matter. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 2 18:31:07 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:31:07 -0600 Subject: Yuck Message-ID: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > >So what does "dead" mean? > > > She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 18:32:29 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:32:29 -0700 Subject: Reading Order WAS Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive wods of Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606021832yfdcbf5fgec4f7efdb05180b2@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Martin Wohlert wrote: > > However, even after a re-read (or is it two?) I still think that the > > the ending of _Issola_ is quite woolly... > It does go by rather quickly, and /Issola/ of all the Vlad books, is, to > date, the one that is most dependent on having read the other books (esp > /Dragon/, /TPG/ and /FHYA/) to fully appreciate. > > Perhaps /Dzur/ will eclipse it in this respect. I think Steve may have > given up on the idea of writing the books in such a way that the order > does not matter. > My introduction to Dragaera was a brief mention of it on a Usenet group a year and a half or so ago, followed by a skim through a web page (not sure whose), followed by a glance at Tor's sample chapter of Issola. That was the hook; I found a copy of Issola and read it and loved it, and went looking for the other books to figure out all the backstory. I kept hoping each story would reveal how Vlad lost his finger; eventually I figured out that I hadn't missed anything, Steve just never explained it. :) I don't know that I "fully" appreciated /Issola/ the first time through, since I hadn't read Orca. For instance, the Third Floor Relic quip made no impression on me whatsoever. But I didn't "fully" appreciate Yendi the first time either, for the same reason. I think Steve did a marvellous job of making Issola a viable entry-point into the series, and I hope /Dzur/ is just as good. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 2 20:08:25 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 23:08:25 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> Message-ID: <980F6B6B-99C7-4912-B719-538635333B5C@mac.com> On Jun 2, 2006, at 9:31 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> >So what does "dead" mean? >> >> >> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. > > We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. She is undead. She does not need to eat, but takes in energy another way. I guess life and death are not as simple and straightforward as we thought... From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat Jun 3 08:02:38 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:02:38 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> At 09:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: >On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> >So what does "dead" mean? >> >> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. > >We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. The correct word seems to be undead. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From chica at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 3 16:03:40 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:03:40 -0700 Subject: Paging Sarah Message-ID: <4482154C.8090004@dreamcafe.com> Sarah: Saw you at O-con during May. Hoped to ask you something Sunday, but didn't see you again. Please email me off the list. Much appreciated. :> For all of you who are not Sarah, my apologies for this brief distraction - and I bid you return to your regular discussion. Thanks... Chica*--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From howard at brazee.net Sat Jun 3 17:22:47 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:22:47 -0600 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> Message-ID: <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >At 09:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >>On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> >> >>> >So what does "dead" mean? >>> >>> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. >>> >>> >>We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. >> >> > >The correct word seems to be undead. > > > > Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's alive. From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jun 3 17:54:30 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:54:30 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> Message-ID: <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > >> At 09:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: >> >> >>> On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>> >>>> >So what does "dead" mean? >>>> >>>> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. >>>> >>> We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. >>> >> >> The correct word seems to be undead. >> >> >> >> > Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's > alive. Tell that to Loraan. Majikjon From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 3 18:59:16 2006 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 18:59:16 -0700 Subject: Yuck References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net><448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Howard Brazee wrote: >> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> >>> At 09:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>>> >>>>> >So what does "dead" mean? >>>>> >>>>> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. >>>>> >>>> We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. >>>> >>> >>> The correct word seems to be undead. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's >> alive. > Tell that to Loraan. > > Majikjon > For some reason, I find it difficult to picture Loraan quacking like a duck jeff -has been known to quack, but only under extreme pressure. From lincicum at comcast.net Sat Jun 3 19:19:24 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:19:24 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net><448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> Jeff wrote: >>> Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's >>> alive. >> Tell that to Loraan. >> >> Majikjon >> > > For some reason, I find it difficult to picture Loraan quacking like a > duck > > jeff -has been known to quack, but only under extreme pressure. Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. Perhaps this is because he was already dead at the time? Majikjon From log0n5150 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 3 19:42:17 2006 From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0700 Subject: Yuck References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net><448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Lincicum" To: "Jeff" Cc: Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Yuck > Jeff wrote: >>>> Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's >>>> alive. >>> Tell that to Loraan. >>> >>> Majikjon >>> >> >> For some reason, I find it difficult to picture Loraan quacking like a >> duck >> >> jeff -has been known to quack, but only under extreme pressure. > > Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. Perhaps > this is because he was already dead at the time? > > > Majikjon > Same reason Aliera survived a morganti weapon. As long as your soul is kept elsewhere, you only have to deal with the actual physical wound. And Loraan keeps his soul "in a box" Considering that the rumor had made it out to the local villages, and the relatively short amount of time between the encounter with Blackwand and Vlad's encounter with him later, I would saw he has been quasi dead for quite some time. jeff From davdisil at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 23:16:54 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 02:16:54 -0400 Subject: Clybru or Clybur, one and the same? A question for Steve. In-Reply-To: <447F71FD.80104@comcast.net> References: <447F71FD.80104@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/1/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > For some reason I thought that "Klyburr" was yet another variant, but > > I appear to be mistaken. Although thanks to the Dramatis Personae, I > > see that there is a Kliburr (who lead the Carriage House Uprising), > > and a Kl'burra, who was a Dzur. I strongly suspect that Clybur or > > Clybru was/is an Athyra. > > > Since he was apparently Head of Mathematics in the first year of > Tortaalik's reign (I'm assuming here that Pel was referring to the > *current* head of mathematics, of course) My own notion, which might well be mistaken, was that Clyb{ur|ru} was some famous mathematician of antiquity. This as a result of reading this page, http://speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/Paarfi_Dumas.html wherein the "Clybur" reference is juxtaposed with a similar reference to "Pythagoras of old". But, really, who can say? From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 08:29:51 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:29:51 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/2/06, wrote: > Howard Brazee > 06/02/06 06:32 AM > > > > >On 7:15 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: [ Sethra Lavode, and mist- and bat- transmogrification ] > > > >She doesn't fit stereotypical vampires in what we've seen - but you are > >convinced that in the stuff we haven't seen, she must fit one of our > >current vampire traditions. I'm not so confident. > You misunderstand. > > I simply say that she *could* do these things (change into a bat, become > mist, live for aeons, etc) if she wanted to. > > But she's Sethra Lavode. > > She could probably have done all these things *before* she became undead. > I am not so convinced that she could, but with SL, it's hard to figure out what she flat-out cannot do, and what she could do but won't simply because it's undignified, or would make everything too easy. And for that matter, regardless of whether she could or couldn't, whether she would tell the truth about it: "We don't know any thieves" Messing around with Sethra Lavode is contraindicated, no matter what. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 08:40:37 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:40:37 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/3/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: [Loraan] > > Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. > <*phweeet!*> Assumption ("run through by Blackwand") not supported by textual evidence. From chica at dreamcafe.com Sun Jun 4 12:05:53 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 12:05:53 -0700 Subject: Was originally 'Yuck' - then went into waterfowl In-Reply-To: <20060604170006.4B682E9636@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060604170006.4B682E9636@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <44832F11.8020507@dreamcafe.com> dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: > Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:22:47 -0600 > From: Howard Brazee > Subject: Re: Yuck > > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > >> At 09:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: >> >>> On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>> >>>>> So what does "dead" mean? >>>> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. >>>> >>> We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. >>> >> The correct word seems to be undead. >> > Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's alive. > > ------------------------------ Despite ducks, Loraan and other comments... I suspect you are mistaking your terms, specifically "alive" where a better word would be animate. It's trickier to mistake "dead" for the merely inanimate and no longer alive. Undead is a placeholder. It assumes that someone has been animated, or is able to function like a living being, or possesses features of same. Think of Frankenstein. Think of the Bicentennial Man [in text, not onscreen, please]. It also assumes that one does not have all the features of the living and possesses some features of the dead; in Sethra Lavode's case, from having had a particular experience. That's why you have the handy category known as undead. I can't speak for what vampire means in Dragaera, 'cause I'm not the author. Now that I consider, there's another Asimov bit that I wouldn't try on Sethra Lavode. :> I would never offer her a fruit and ask her to eat it, as proof she was alive. Mostly because it's not proof. I'm going to pretend that you all were arguing in earnest, instead of passing the time on a quiet weekend. :P *--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 16:53:01 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:53:01 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4483725D.5030702@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/3/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > [Loraan] > >> >> Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. > > <*phweeet!*> Assumption ("run through by Blackwand") not supported by > textual evidence. Well, perhaps "run-through" is a bit strong. "Hit by" may come closer. And yes, it may be an assumption--one that Vlad made, but since he's all we have to go on, it's very hard to say. Maybe Morrolan will tell us about it sometime. (Ooo... There's an interesting idea. A Vlad book narrated by Morrolan. Or Aliera. I'd read those.) Really, I'm not advocating any particular stance on how Loraan survived the encounter in /Taltos/ to still be around in /Athyra/, just pointing out that things are not always as obvious or simple when dealing with powerful undead wizards (Loraan, or the even more enigmatic Sethra Lavode) than some might like to pretend. Majikjon -now stuck with the image of Sethra transforming into a duck From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 18:22:26 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:22:26 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <4483725D.5030702@comcast.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> <4483725D.5030702@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > Majikjon > > -now stuck with the image of Sethra transforming into a duck > A duck hopped out of the water, and began waddling towards me in an oddly purposeful manner. Loiosh stared at it, saying /Boss, have we met that duck before?/ Before I could respond to that bizarre comment, the duck stopped a short distance away, waggled a little, then shimmered in a strange way, and became Sethra Lavode. I found that I had so much to say that nothing actually came out of my mouth, which Sethra no doubt found immensely gratifying. She smirked, then said in amused tones, "Really, Vlad, why *not* a duck?" From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Jun 4 18:47:19 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> <4483725D.5030702@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > Majikjon > > > > -now stuck with the image of Sethra transforming into a duck > > > > A duck hopped out of the water, and began waddling towards me in an > oddly purposeful manner. Loiosh stared at it, saying /Boss, have we > met that duck before?/ > > Before I could respond to that bizarre comment, the duck stopped a > short distance away, waggled a little, then shimmered in a strange > way, and became Sethra Lavode. > > I found that I had so much to say that nothing actually came out of my > mouth, which Sethra no doubt found immensely gratifying. She smirked, > then said in amused tones, "Vlad, you can put the meat cleaver down now." From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 19:12:23 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:12:23 -0700 Subject: Clybru or Clybur, one and the same? A question for Steve. In-Reply-To: References: <447F71FD.80104@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44839307.7070208@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/1/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> > For some reason I thought that "Klyburr" was yet another variant, but >> > I appear to be mistaken. Although thanks to the Dramatis Personae, I >> > see that there is a Kliburr (who lead the Carriage House Uprising), >> > and a Kl'burra, who was a Dzur. I strongly suspect that Clybur or >> > Clybru was/is an Athyra. >> > >> Since he was apparently Head of Mathematics in the first year of >> Tortaalik's reign (I'm assuming here that Pel was referring to the >> *current* head of mathematics, of course) > > My own notion, which might well be mistaken, was that Clyb{ur|ru} was > some famous mathematician of antiquity. This as a result of reading > this page, > > http://speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/Paarfi_Dumas.html > > wherein the "Clybur" reference is juxtaposed with a similar reference > to "Pythagoras of old". > > But, really, who can say? That really is how it strikes me when Sethra says it in /FHYA/, but the phasing that Pel uses in his example seemed, well, different. "You reason like Clybru, the chief of the Mathemeticians." I guess I've been making the mistaken assumption that "chief of Mathemeticians" is a job title, like "Minister of the Houses" or "Secretary of the Interior". If Pel is just saying that Clybru is the "chief" in the sense that he is the "greatest of all the people who have ever been Mathemeticians", then it makes more sense for it to be a historical figure in this case as well. Yes, this really does seem more likely. I guess it's just example of how a subtle change in interpretation of the same phrase can significantly alter its meaning. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 19:14:35 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:14:35 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> <4483725D.5030702@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4483938B.2070600@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > A duck hopped out of the water, and began waddling towards me in an > oddly purposeful manner. Loiosh stared at it, saying /Boss, have we > met that duck before?/ > > Before I could respond to that bizarre comment, the duck stopped a > short distance away, waggled a little, then shimmered in a strange > way, and became Sethra Lavode. > > I found that I had so much to say that nothing actually came out of my > mouth, which Sethra no doubt found immensely gratifying. She smirked, > then said in amused tones, "Really, Vlad, why *not* a duck?" Ah, but Sethra has stated (in /Issola/) that she doesn't know witchcraft. Thus, logically, not being made of wood, she cannot weigh the same as a duck. Yes? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Sun Jun 4 19:43:46 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:43:46 -0600 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Jon Lincicum wrote: >Now, Kragar was simply repeating rumors about Sethra, and he (nor we) >really doesn't know how much of this is true, but it is interesting to >note that of all these attributes, the only one we haven't directly seen >is her actually turning anyone into a norska or a jhereg. > >Could she turn into mist, or a bat, or a duck if she *really* wanted to? >I consider it likely. > > > It really wouldn't be a good idea though. Mists, bats, and ducks aren't known for their ability to think, make magic, nor wield Great Weapons. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 19:37:51 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:37:51 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/2/06, wrote: >> She could probably have done all these things *before* she became >> undead. >> > > I am not so convinced that she could, but with SL, it's hard to figure > out what she flat-out cannot do, and what she could do but won't > simply because it's undignified, or would make everything too easy. > > And for that matter, regardless of whether she could or couldn't, > whether she would tell the truth about it: "We don't know any > thieves" > > Messing around with Sethra Lavode is contraindicated, no matter what. Here's what Kragar had to say about Sethra before Vlad ever met her: [cite] Taltos, Chapter One: "She's a vampire, a shape-shifter, holds a Great Weapon, is probably the most dangerous wizard living, and has a habit of killing people who get near her, unless she decides to turn them into norska or jhereg instead." [/cite] Now, Kragar was simply repeating rumors about Sethra, and he (nor we) really doesn't know how much of this is true, but it is interesting to note that of all these attributes, the only one we haven't directly seen is her actually turning anyone into a norska or a jhereg. Could she turn into mist, or a bat, or a duck if she *really* wanted to? I consider it likely. Majikjon /There are worse fates than being a jhereg, boss./ /Shut up, Loiosh./ From ike at manor.org Sun Jun 4 20:00:15 2006 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: farkers LOVE the brust In-Reply-To: References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net><448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2101437 Many mentions... From pulmon at mac.com Sun Jun 4 20:04:00 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:04:00 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <4483938B.2070600@comcast.net> References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net> <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> <4483725D.5030702@comcast.net> <4483938B.2070600@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2006, at 10:14 PM, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> A duck hopped out of the water, and began waddling towards me in an >> oddly purposeful manner. Loiosh stared at it, saying /Boss, have we >> met that duck before?/ >> >> Before I could respond to that bizarre comment, the duck stopped a >> short distance away, waggled a little, then shimmered in a strange >> way, and became Sethra Lavode. >> >> I found that I had so much to say that nothing actually came out >> of my >> mouth, which Sethra no doubt found immensely gratifying. She >> smirked, >> then said in amused tones, "Really, Vlad, why *not* a duck?" > Ah, but Sethra has stated (in /Issola/) that she doesn't know > witchcraft. Thus, logically, not being made of wood, she cannot > weigh the same as a duck. Yes? > > Majikjon But we know that Sethra is a shapeshifter so she could make herself LOOK like a duck while swimming. I am not fully cognizant of the complexities of shapeshifting. For example, what happens to mass when shifting into a shape with a different volume? If mass were constant, then density would change and the duck would sink. Alternatively, the excess mass could be shifted into another dimension resulting in a manifestation of a duck with the appropriate density. Why do I feel as if I am reasoning like a Monty Yendi? Ken From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 20:07:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:07:43 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/4/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Here's what Kragar had to say about Sethra before Vlad ever met her: > > [cite] > > Taltos, Chapter One: > > "She's a vampire, a shape-shifter, holds a Great Weapon, is probably the > most dangerous wizard living, and has a habit of killing people who get > near her, unless she decides to turn them into norska or jhereg instead." > > [/cite] > > Now, Kragar was simply repeating rumors about Sethra, and he (nor we) > really doesn't know how much of this is true, but it is interesting to > note that of all these attributes, the only one we haven't directly seen > is her actually turning anyone into a norska or a jhereg. > Now, wait. We haven't directly seen her drink blood, nor shape-shift. In the example I am sure you are thinking of, we don't know if that's a sorcerous disguise, a non-magical disguise, or a genuine shapeshift (or as was suggested, a different body). I don't think we've directly seen her kill someone just for getting near her, either. There's Quion, but we don't know who offed Quion. It might even have been Tukko. I bet Sethra starts a lot of those rumors herself. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 20:13:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:13:36 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 6/4/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > >Could she turn into mist, or a bat, or a duck if she *really* wanted to? > >I consider it likely. > > > It really wouldn't be a good idea though. Mists, bats, and ducks > aren't known for their ability to think, make magic, nor wield Great > Weapons. > Well, she wouldn't shape-shift into those forms unless she *could* retain some or all of her abilities and mental capabilities. While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a definite example in the Dragaeraverse of someone who shapeshifted and retained her ability to think, and presumably at least sufficient magical ability to shift back to her original form. So I don't think we can rule that out for Sethra, either, at least not on the grounds you suggest. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Jun 4 20:23:08 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a > definite example in the Dragaeraverse of someone who shapeshifted and > retained her ability to think, and presumably at least sufficient > magical ability to shift back to her original form. You're talking about someone shapeshifting into the form of a thinking being, though. (Someone who can do rather more surprising things, like defy causality.) Otoh at least one of the gods is rather like a hyperintelligent shade of blue, so whatever. From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 20:33:08 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:33:08 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 6/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a > > definite example in the Dragaeraverse of someone who shapeshifted and > > retained her ability to think, and presumably at least sufficient > > magical ability to shift back to her original form. > > You're talking about someone shapeshifting into the form of a thinking > being, though. So why couldn't Sethra shapeshift into the form of a thinking duck or bat? A thinking cloud of condensed water droplets is a trickier proposition, I grant. > (Someone who can do rather more surprising things, like > defy causality.) I am not sure if "defy" is the correct term. Perhaps "dance around" is better, considering that there are constraints even she must follow? From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 20:48:33 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:48:33 -0700 Subject: farkers LOVE the brust In-Reply-To: References: <4480E65B.9090403@brazee.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060603110142.0260bcb8@cox.net><448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> <44822F46.2090103@comcast.net> <4482432C.2010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4483A991.8090406@comcast.net> Ike Porter wrote: > http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2101437 > > Many mentions... > As well as plenty of Neil Gaiman and Zalazny. This fark thread has added at least two or three titles to my personal "to read" list. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Jun 4 21:02:39 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shapeshifting (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: <4483A892.1070006@comcast.net> References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> <4483A892.1070006@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a > [Greater Orca Spoiler] > > Nuff said. Think that was a Devera ref. The other is all in the forelock and glasses. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 20:44:18 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:44:18 -0700 Subject: Shapeshifting (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4483A892.1070006@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/4/06, Howard Brazee wrote: >> Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> > >> >Could she turn into mist, or a bat, or a duck if she *really* wanted >> to? >> >I consider it likely. >> > >> It really wouldn't be a good idea though. Mists, bats, and ducks >> aren't known for their ability to think, make magic, nor wield Great >> Weapons. >> > > Well, she wouldn't shape-shift into those forms unless she *could* > retain some or all of her abilities and mental capabilities. Well, she could shift into a hyper-dimensional being of massive whose projection into our space-time appears to be a small teckla. Who knew the ultimate answer was actually 17? > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a [Greater Orca Spoiler] Nuff said. Also, note that "being a vampire" is confirmed by Loiosh (who by all evidence is a good authority on such matters) on his first meeting Sethra, and she doesn't ever deny it. We don't see her drink blood, it's true, but that's not what Kragar said, he just said she "is a vampire". Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 21:20:26 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:20:26 -0400 Subject: Life-states Message-ID: On 6/4/06, A.S. Zanoni wrote: > dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: > > > > Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:22:47 -0600 > > From: Howard Brazee > > Subject: Re: Yuck > > > > Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > >> At 09:31 PM 6/2/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> > >>> On 5:36 PM Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > >>> > >>>>> So what does "dead" mean? > >>>> She's not exactly dead, she is just not alive. > >>>> > >>> We've been told she's dead, but she's obviously also alive. > >>> > >> The correct word seems to be undead. > >> > > Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's alive. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Despite ducks, Loraan and other comments... I suspect you are mistaking > your terms, specifically "alive" where a better word would be animate. > It's trickier to mistake "dead" for the merely inanimate and no longer > alive. > > Undead is a placeholder. It assumes that someone has been animated, or > is able to function like a living being, or possesses features of same. > > That's why you have the handy category known as undead. > Well, yes. This is certainly how I think of it. I believe that the original poster was thinking that if someone is walking around, breathing, and so on - by definition, "metabolizing" - then that individual is also by definition, alive. In our universe, that would probably be true, but in the Dragaeraverse, things are obviously different. I think we can even classify some of these different states, which is probably a good start towards thinking of it as being a matter of engineering. No doubt the Necromancer would be able to point out problems with these definitions, based on better understanding of the underlying mechanics. Alive: Having a viable, metabolizing body, and a soul which was bound to that body at the moment of its conception (or at some specific point during fetal development, such as after the development of the brain, or the neocortex). The life-state of most animate persons and animals. Dead: That point where the body is not in fact viable and metabolizing, but the soul is still bound to it. If the body is returned to a viable state, the person is said to be alive again, or revivified. Permanently Dead: That point where the body is not viable and metabolizing, and the soul is no longer bound to it. Destroyed: When a soul is given to a Morganti weapon, via a body that it is bound to, it is destroyed. For all practical purposes, that person no longer exists at all. Disembodied: That situation where the body is not viable or metabolizing, or even present, but the soul, while unbound from a body, is still coherent, and is able at times to manifest. Undead: That situation where the soul was unbound from the body, and then re-bound. Because the binding is not the same type of binding that occurs when a soul is bound during fetal development, it is a weaker binding, and [NECROMANTIC TECH GOES HERE] Undead Vampiric: An undead where the binding of soul to body is sufficiently strained that it affects the metabolism of the body. Thus, [NECROMANTIC TECH GOES HERE] Waiting: That location/state where an unbound soul goes (usualy souls of Easterners, and Dragaerans who do not go to Deathgate). When it pleases the gods, they permit souls in this state to be re-bound to developing fetuses, to re-enter the "Alive" state as reincarnated persons. Pathed: Those souls which have been given to Deathgate, and are making their way through the Paths of the Dead. Judged: Those souls which have successfully navigated the Paths of the Dead and arrived at the Halls of Judgement. These souls may appear to visitors to be alive; they certainly can have many (most?) of the powers and skills that they have when alive. Those souls which are judged unworthy for whatever reason are given a purple robe, and are enslaved to the gods' whims. Souls in this state may also be permitted to be re-bound to developing fetuses, to re-enter the "Alive" state as reincarnated persons. Bound to inanimate: Like it sounds. A soul in this state may be considered frozen, although it may, after time, enter the waiting state, or decay to the point where it becomes destroyed. Insufficient data, and [NECROMANTIC TECH GOES HERE]. The gods have the ability to force the soul into the alive state again, by arcane means that only they know. Bound to partially animate: If an inanimate object is magically modified such that it can in fact support a soul indefinitely, and allow said soul to think coherently, perceive the outside world, and react to it in a limited manner (in a way that a soul that is bound to an ordinary inanimate object can not), then [NECROMANTIC TECH GOES HERE] From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Sun Jun 4 21:30:38 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > (Someone who can do rather more surprising things, like > > defy causality.) > > I am not sure if "defy" is the correct term. Perhaps "dance around" > is better, considering that there are constraints even she must > follow? Well, the physics word is "violate" - I've never heard, "This decay dances around the C-P symmetry". From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 21:37:53 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:37:53 -0400 Subject: Shapeshifting (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> <4483A892.1070006@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a > > [Greater Orca Spoiler] > > > > Nuff said. > > Think that was a Devera ref. Indeed it was. > The other is all in the forelock and glasses. How did you find out, when did you find out, and who have you told? From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 21:44:40 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:44:40 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4483B6B8.70106@comcast.net> Philip Hart wrote: > On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > >> On 6/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >>> (Someone who can do rather more surprising things, like >>> defy causality.) >>> >> I am not sure if "defy" is the correct term. Perhaps "dance around" >> is better, considering that there are constraints even she must >> follow? >> > > Well, the physics word is "violate" - I've never heard, "This decay > dances around the C-P symmetry". > Well, that's probably because most physicists have never been to the Paths of the Dead, or Verra's Halls. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 21:50:07 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:50:07 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 6/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > (Someone who can do rather more surprising things, like > > > defy causality.) > > > > I am not sure if "defy" is the correct term. Perhaps "dance around" > > is better, considering that there are constraints even she must > > follow? > > Well, the physics word is "violate" - I've never heard, "This decay > dances around the C-P symmetry". While I must bow to your expertise in your field, I think particle physics is perhaps poorer for the lack of elegant verbs to describe such phenomena. From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 4 21:57:23 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:57:23 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4483B9B3.5040201@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I think we can even classify some of these different states, which is > probably a good start towards thinking of it as being a matter of > engineering. No doubt the Necromancer would be able to point out > problems with these definitions, based on better understanding of the > underlying mechanics. > > Alive: Having a viable, metabolizing body, and a soul which was bound > Dead: That point where the body is not in fact viable and > Permanently Dead: That point where the body is not viable and > Destroyed: When a soul is given to a Morganti weapon, via a body that > Disembodied: That situation where the body is not viable or > Undead: That situation where the soul was unbound from the body, and > Undead Vampiric: An undead where the binding of soul to body is > Waiting: That location/state where an unbound soul goes (usualy souls > Pathed: Those souls which have been given to Deathgate, and are > Judged: Those souls which have successfully navigated the Paths of > Bound to inanimate: Like it sounds. A soul in this state may be > Bound to partially animate: If an inanimate object is magically Hmm... Interesting catalog of terms. You could write a book. (Or, at least, a wikipedia entry... ;-) ) I note that some of these terms apply only to the body, and others to the soul, and some to both... So it's possible for a being to have more than one of these states apply to someone at any one time. Take, for example, the life-state of Aliera from /Paths of the Dead/ to the middle of /Taltos/... Her body was "permanently dead", but her soul was--what? Bound to inanimate? What state was her soul in before Orlaan trapped in in a white staff with a rusty star on one end? How about when she was revived by Verra, bu hadn't yet left the Paths in /Taltos/? Is Aliera "alive" again now? How can this be, since her soul was rebound to her body again while in the Paths? By these definitions, she would appear to be "undead", yet the term is not used by Vlad, Morrolan, Sethra, or (perhaps most tellingly) The Necromancer when referring to her. And what about our erstwhile Empress, Zerika? Do any of these definitions really apply to her experiences? (Granted, she never actually had her soul detached from her body... so it seems unlikely.) Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 03:25:15 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 06:25:15 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: That's Mr. Douglas Adams you're thinking of. I was thinking, "Sethra chose the vampire thing herself, because she was going through a Anne Rice/Laurell K. Hamilton phrase and just never told anyone when she grew out of it." Then I realized I might actually accept that if Steve did it. Our author is evil. On 6/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a > > definite example in the Dragaeraverse of someone who shapeshifted and > > retained her ability to think, and presumably at least sufficient > > magical ability to shift back to her original form. > > You're talking about someone shapeshifting into the form of a thinking > being, though. (Someone who can do rather more surprising things, like > defy causality.) > > Otoh at least one of the gods is rather like a hyperintelligent shade > of blue, so whatever. > > From howard at brazee.net Mon Jun 5 04:43:59 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:43:59 -0600 Subject: Shapeshifting (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> <4483A892.1070006@comcast.net> Message-ID: <448418FF.2010600@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > >>Davdi Silverrock wrote: >> >> >>>While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a >>> >>> >>[Greater Orca Spoiler] >> >>Nuff said. >> >> > >Think that was a Devera ref. The other is all in the forelock and >glasses. > > Now, I'm singing "In disguise, with glasses". From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jun 5 06:25:03 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:25:03 -0400 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: <4483B9B3.5040201@comcast.net> Message-ID: <02f401c688a3$749ed190$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Majikjon writ: > I note that some of these terms apply only to the body, and > others to the soul, and some to both... So it's possible for > a being to have more than one of these states apply to > someone at any one time. I'd quibble. All of the life states described by Davdi reflect the status of the soul. The following involve the body, but the soul is what is important for life. A brief restatement from a soul-centric view might look like: Alive: soul attached to natural body in normal fashion Dead: soul attached to natural body that is not currently functional, revification possible. Permanently dead: soul no longer attached to corpse. Revification not possible. Destroyed: soul has been "eaten" by a Morganti weapon wounding the body while soul attached in 'alive' state. Disembodied: detached soul - see permanently dead. Undead: soul reattached to former corpse by unspecified interventions. 'Bodily' functions undefined. Undead Vampiric: see undead. No explicit explanation in textev. May or may not be distinct. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 06:36:57 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 06:36:57 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: <02f401c688a3$749ed190$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 06:25 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: Life-states >Majikjon writ: >> I note that some of these terms apply only to the body, and >> others to the soul, and some to both... So it's possible for >> a being to have more than one of these states apply to >> someone at any one time. > >I'd quibble. All of the life states described by Davdi reflect the >status of the soul. The following involve the body, but the soul is >what is important for life. A brief restatement from a soul-centric >view might look like: Well, but what's the difference between "Permanently dead" and "disembodied soul"? They seem to be two terms for the same state, with one term (the dead one) focusing on the state of the body, and the other talking about just the soul. And I'm still curious about Aliera's current life-state, in that her current body appears to be a construct created by the LoJ (Verra in particular) whose soul was not "attached in normal fashion". Is she undead? "Re-animated?" Or do we need another term to describe this special case? >Alive: soul attached to natural body in normal fashion >Dead: soul attached to natural body that is not currently functional, >revification possible. >Permanently dead: soul no longer attached to corpse. Revification not >possible. >Destroyed: soul has been "eaten" by a Morganti weapon wounding the >body while soul attached in 'alive' state. >Disembodied: detached soul - see permanently dead. >Undead: soul reattached to former corpse by unspecified interventions. >'Bodily' functions undefined. >Undead Vampiric: see undead. No explicit explanation in textev. May or >may not be distinct. All in all, I find it extremely useful to have a glossary of necromantic terms, if we're all supposed to agree on what we're talking about (yeah, like *that's* ever happened...). Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Jun 5 07:22:22 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:22 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons again (Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <447E0138.9050208@brazee.net> References: <447E0138.9050208@brazee.net> Message-ID: <44843E1E.4080904@email.ers.usda.gov> Howard Brazee wrote: > On 2:10 PM Jeff wrote: > >> Indeed. When you look at how Spellbreaker was regarded by >> knowledgeable >> individuals, it seems that almost everyone knew exactly what he had >> all along. Except Verra, which I find very odd. > > > There are times when Verra appears to know just as much as she wants > to know. > > What is it that the Walrus says about who's in charge of words' meanings? Nothing. That's Humpty Dumpty asserting that the question is who is to be the master. Snarkhunter From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 5 07:38:33 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:38:33 -0700 Subject: Life-states References: Message-ID: > And I'm still curious about Aliera's current life-state, in that her > current body appears to be a construct created by the LoJ (Verra in > particular) whose soul was not "attached in normal fashion". Is she > undead? "Re-animated?" Or do we need another term to describe this special > case? > > > Majikjon > > > Hmm, I had understood that the body in the Paths of the Dead was Aliera's original body. Must re-read a few passages. jeff From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Mon Jun 5 07:40:16 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:40:16 +0200 Subject: Hyperintelligent blue...was:Re: Yuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Louis Eastman" top-posted: >On 6/4/06, Philip Hart wrote: >>Otoh at least one of the gods is rather like a hyperintelligent shade >>of blue, so whatever. >That's Mr. Douglas Adams you're thinking of. > No, that's Steve making a reference to Adams. :) From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 5 08:01:13 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:01:13 +0000 Subject: Hyperintelligent blue...was:Re: Yuck Message-ID: <20060605150113.GNTT24467.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> > > From: "Martin Wohlert" > Date: 2006/06/05 Mon PM 02:40:16 GMT > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Hyperintelligent blue...was:Re: Yuck > > "Louis Eastman" top-posted: > > No, that's Steve making a reference to Adams. :) > As in the late Mr Douglas Adams.... Which isn't really a threat thingy...more a statement of fact....and a great pity too. Sigh. Mark ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 08:06:25 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:06:25 -0400 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: <4483B9B3.5040201@comcast.net> References: <4483B9B3.5040201@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Take, for example, the life-state of Aliera from /Paths of the Dead/ to > the middle of /Taltos/... Her body was "permanently dead", but her soul > was--what? Bound to inanimate? What state was her soul in before Orlaan > trapped in in a white staff with a rusty star on one end? I would guess at "disembodied". I'll try and clarify that next post. Alternatively, Aliera's soul might have been bound to some other inanimate object, such as something she wore or had to hand (such as a purple stone?) when she was teleported out of Dragaera City. > How about when she was revived by Verra, but hadn't yet left the > Paths in /Taltos/? > > Is Aliera "alive" again now? How can this be, since her soul was rebound > to her body again while in the Paths? By these definitions, she would > appear to be "undead", yet the term is not used by Vlad, Morrolan, > Sethra, or (perhaps most tellingly) The Necromancer when referring to her. I would assert that Aliera was made entirely alive in the Paths of the Dead, because of what you note. Aliera is indeed a special case, an exception to most of the rules. I would suggest that Verra was able to return Aliera to the state of being alive because of a combination of factors: (1) Verra was intimately familiar with Aliera's body, since she gave birth to Aliera in the first place. Thus, Verra was able to either re-create Aliera's body exactly, or retrieve it from the exact point in spacetime where it disappeared. (2) The Paths of the Dead is the sort of place that enables close manipulation of the soul and of life-states, so Verra, once she had Aliera's body back, was able to bind Aliera's soul to that body in such a way as to return it to being alive, rather than undead. Again, close familiarity with Aliera's body and soul could well have been a decisive factor. (3) Devera may have helped. From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 08:11:56 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:11:56 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2be528100606050811i708e17bdy13e8df19bf3c23c8@mail.gmail.com> > While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a > definite example in the Dragaeraverse of someone who shapeshifted and > retained her ability to think, and presumably at least sufficient > magical ability to shift back to her original form. So I don't think > we can rule that out for Sethra, either, at least not on the grounds > you suggest. Could someone please remind me what specific example is being refered to here? I assume that it hasn't been explicitly described for spolier reasons, so please do use spoiler tags for those people who, unlike myself, don't want to know. Thanks From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 08:18:43 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:18:43 -0400 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: References: <02f401c688a3$749ed190$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Well, but what's the difference between "Permanently dead" and > "disembodied soul"? They seem to be two terms for the same state, with one > term (the dead one) focusing on the state of the body, and the other > talking about just the soul. > While I suppose that there may well be some overlap, the difference that I had in mind is that a "permanently dead" soul is unbound from its body, and is also no longer coherent, and thus no longer present in the usual plane of existence. I guess you could say that it is just about to transition to the "waiting" state. A "disembodied" soul, though, while also permanently dead, still maintains sufficient coherence to manifest in the usual plane of existence. Perhaps "ghost" would be a better choice of term. The obvious case here being Franz. Although I wonder if Franz could have been revivified? Perhaps the very fact that he was a ghost in the building - rather than following/attached to his body - implies that he was in fact killed permanently (while the description says his throat was cut, there may have been a follow-up or incidental spinal severing). From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 08:29:16 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:29:16 -0700 Subject: Shapeshifting (Orca Major Spoiler, and Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: <2be528100606050811i708e17bdy13e8df19bf3c23c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The Traditional 17 lines of Spoiler Space "Joy Nicholson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 08:11 AM To "Davdi Silverrock" cc Dragaera List Subject Re: Yuck >> While we have no specific examples of Sethra shapeshifting, there is a >> definite example in the Dragaeraverse of someone who shapeshifted and >> retained her ability to think, and presumably at least sufficient >> magical ability to shift back to her original form. So I don't think >> we can rule that out for Sethra, either, at least not on the grounds >> you suggest. > >Could someone please remind me what specific example is being refered >to here? I assume that it hasn't been explicitly described for >spolier reasons, so please do use spoiler tags for those people who, >unlike myself, don't want to know. The two examples are: 1. Orca, we learn that Kiera is Sethra, which may, in fact, be an example of her shapeshifting abilities, or, as others suggest, may simply be a clever, if more mundane, form of disguise. 2. Issola, where a dragon joins the Lords of Judgement when fighting the Jenoine. It was guessed at (and later confirmed by SKZB) that this was Devera in another shape. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jun 5 08:33:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shapeshifting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note there's also shapeshifting seen in _TEoDM_ or thereabouts. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 08:36:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:36:48 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 08:18 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Life-states >"ghost" would be a better choice of term. The obvious case here being >Franz. > >Although I wonder if Franz could have been revivified? Perhaps the >very fact that he was a ghost in the building - rather than >following/attached to his body - implies that he was in fact killed >permanently (while the description says his throat was cut, there may >have been a follow-up or incidental spinal severing). The question is moot, since Kelly's group wouldn't have done so, even if they could have afforded it, since they were more concerned about using his martyrdom for their own purposes than in his own needs. In fact, they probably would have done everything in their power to *prevent* anyone from revivifying him. Vlad says some rather unflattering things about them on this point, as I recall. Majikjon From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 09:29:55 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:29:55 -0700 Subject: Shapeshifting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44845C03.5050009@Sun.COM> Also, many a Dzur hero has been changed into a Norska while attempting to defeat the Evil Enchantress. No wonder the Norska are breeding like.... Ahem. :) Chris Philip Hart wrote On 06/05/06 08:33,: > Note there's also shapeshifting seen in _TEoDM_ or thereabouts. From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 09:30:46 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:30:46 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <2be528100606050811i708e17bdy13e8df19bf3c23c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <448398FF.5000803@comcast.net> <44839A62.1040902@brazee.net> <2be528100606050811i708e17bdy13e8df19bf3c23c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606050930s6d2f59aau82d1be821fd5417b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/5/06, Joy Nicholson wrote: > > Could someone please remind me what specific example is being refered > to here? I assume that it hasn't been explicitly described for > spolier reasons, so please do use spoiler tags for those people who, > unlike myself, don't want to know. > [Issola plot-detail, not really a spoiler...] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The dragon that shows up, makes eye contact with Vlad, rips a Jenoine to shreds, and reminds Vlad of Aliera is actually Devera. Sethra comments on it to Aliera when the dragon joins in the attack on the Jenoine, apparently in contravention of Sethra's orders. Something like this: S: "Don't you know who that is?" A: "No, should I?" S: "Yes. Very well, leave her alone, we'll adjust." Note that the dragon is protective of Aliera, and when it gets knocked out by an invisible wall, shakes its head in a strangely human fashion. When Aliera gets knocked over by a Jenoine, she also shakes her head in a "gesture terribly reminiscent of the Dragon." ~Max Wilson Devera-fan -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 09:35:00 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:35:00 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 08:06 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Life-states >I would assert that Aliera was made entirely alive in the Paths of the >Dead, because of what you note. Aliera is indeed a special case, an >exception to most of the rules. I am entirely of the same opinion, Aliera is clearly alive. I just didn't see how that fit in with your definitions. Although she is, as you note, an entirely unique case. >I would suggest that Verra was able to return Aliera to the state of >being alive because of a combination of factors: (1) Verra was >intimately familiar with Aliera's body, since she gave birth to Aliera >in the first place. Thus, Verra was able to either re-create Aliera's >body exactly, or retrieve it from the exact point in spacetime where >it disappeared. (2) The Paths of the Dead is the sort of place that >enables close manipulation of the soul and of life-states, so Verra, >once she had Aliera's body back, was able to bind Aliera's soul to >that body in such a way as to return it to being alive, rather than >undead. Again, close familiarity with Aliera's body and soul could >well have been a decisive factor. (3) Devera may have helped. Well, we don't really know what happened to Aliera's body when it was wrenched away from her soul during Adron's Disaster. Perhaps it got pulled, along with the Orb, to the Paths, where it appeared just in time to be reunited with her soul? Time does funny things in the Paths, after all. This would make it almost just a straightforward case of revivification. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 09:56:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:56:50 -0700 Subject: Shapeshifting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 08:33 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Shapeshifting >Note there's also shapeshifting seen in _TEoDM_ or thereabouts. Umm... You mean _SL_ (and LoCB)? Sireng and Awtla, I presume? Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jun 5 10:16:22 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:16:22 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <448227D7.9090306@brazee.net> Message-ID: <0ab701c688c3$c5cc7930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's alive. And if the duck doesn't eat, doesn't breathe, doesn't circulate blood and none of its internal organs are operational? You seem to be taking the stance that ambulatory = alive. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jun 5 11:18:45 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:18:45 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >[Loraan] >> Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. ><*phweeet!*> Assumption ("run through by Blackwand") not supported by >textual evidence. Morollan's comment on Loraan is "take it up with Blackwand". This has always implied to me that Blackwand did, indeed, stab Loraan but she either couldn't reach his soul or chose for obscure reasons to preserve his soul rather than consume it. I'm not so sure about the lack of textev. "I managed to support myself and saw Loraan. My knife was in his stomach, and there was a large cut, as from a sword, in his chest directly over the heart. He seemed to be rather dead." The fact that we didn't see Blackwand strike Loraan "on-screen" isn't really germane. Unless someone was to suggest that Loraan stabbed himself with a sword and Steve just didn't bother telling us about it. That seems a little far-fetched. Couple this with the "take it up with Blackwand" comment and you'd have a hard time arguing that textev doesn't support Blackwand striking Loraan. Morollan certainly seems to believe she did so. (Maybe the quibble is with the words "run through", though?) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jun 5 11:26:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >[Loraan] > > >> Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. > > ><*phweeet!*> Assumption ("run through by Blackwand") not supported by > >textual evidence. > > Morollan's comment on Loraan is "take it up with Blackwand". This has always > implied to me that Blackwand did, indeed, stab Loraan [...] This and subsequent make me wonder if M was conscious for the last bit. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 11:36:42 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:36:42 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 11:18 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: Yuck >I'm not so sure about the lack of textev. > >"I managed to support myself and saw Loraan. My knife was in his stomach, >and there was a large cut, as from a sword, in his chest directly over the >heart. He seemed to be rather dead." > >The fact that we didn't see Blackwand strike Loraan "on-screen" isn't really >germane. Unless someone was to suggest that Loraan stabbed himself with a >sword and Steve just didn't bother telling us about it. That seems a little >far-fetched. Couple this with the "take it up with Blackwand" comment and >you'd have a hard time arguing that textev doesn't support Blackwand >striking Loraan. Morollan certainly seems to believe she did so. (Maybe the >quibble is with the words "run through", though?) One thing I noticed when re-reading this passage, was that Vlad had nailed Loraan with a thrown dagger moments before. Now, under the "It-can't-get-any-worse rule", a person who is already dead is immune to the morganti soul-destroying effect... So, tenative theory: 1. Vlad nails Loraan with a dagger in an especially bad spot, killing him instantly. 2. Blackwand swipes Loraan across the chest, but since he's dead, his soul is safe. 3. One of Loraan's guards comes around and revivifies him later. Of course, this is by no means conclusive, and depends on a rather abrupt deminse on the part of Loraan to work. We may be dealing with the whole "soul-in-a-box" (or equivilent) situation here instead. I've more or less suspended my judgement on this point, after debating about it for the wiki article on Loraan. If Steve chooses to tell us what happened, it'll answer it, if not, I don't think we have enough information to say for sure one way or the other. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Mon Jun 5 12:28:47 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:28:47 -0600 Subject: Life-states Message-ID: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> On 7:36 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > And I'm still curious about Aliera's current life-state, in that her > current body appears to be a construct created by the LoJ (Verra in > particular) whose soul was not "attached in normal fashion". Is she > undead? "Re-animated?" Or do we need another term to describe this > special case? What status do we give the souls of gods and demons? From howard at brazee.net Mon Jun 5 12:37:27 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:37:27 -0600 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <0ab701c688c3$c5cc7930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0ab701c688c3$c5cc7930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <448487F7.1030303@brazee.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >>Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's alive. > >And if the duck doesn't eat, doesn't breathe, doesn't circulate blood and >none of its internal organs are operational? > >You seem to be taking the stance that ambulatory = alive. > > This duck is a light eater, this talks duck talks (which implies she breaths). I haven't had the opportunity to bleed that duck. This duck's brain, larynx, senses, & muscles work quite well, I haven't had a chance to observe its spleen in action, but I would say that this duck has guts. (Or Dickens would say "bowels"). This duck is able to pass as alive by observant people. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jun 5 12:39:46 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:39:46 -0600 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44848882.9080308@brazee.net> > immune to the morganti soul-destroying effect... So, tenative theory: > >1. Vlad nails Loraan with a dagger in an especially bad spot, killing him >instantly. >2. Blackwand swipes Loraan across the chest, but since he's dead, his soul >is safe. >3. One of Loraan's guards comes around and revivifies him later. > > How fast does one lose his soul with a normal weapon? Unless his brain explodes, I see it taking several seconds at least. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 12:43:51 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:43:51 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >[Loraan] > > >> Yes, but he did somehow survive being run-through by Blackwand. > > ><*phweeet!*> Assumption ("run through by Blackwand") not supported by > >textual evidence. > > Morollan's comment on Loraan is "take it up with Blackwand". This has always > implied to me that Blackwand did, indeed, stab Loraan but she either > couldn't reach his soul or chose for obscure reasons to preserve his soul > rather than consume it. Since Morrolan was not the one who said those words, the above is rather more tenuous speculation than it appears (and it's already rather tenuous). Which is not to say that it is invalid, it's just that we have not heard Morrolan state anything about what happened in Loraan's keep. And if I know anything about Brust, we probably never will. Or at least not until M makes an oblique comment somewhere in the /The Last Contract/, maybe. > I'm not so sure about the lack of textev. > > "I managed to support myself and saw Loraan. My knife was in his stomach, > and there was a large cut, as from a sword, in his chest directly over the > heart. He seemed to be rather dead." > The fact that we didn't see Blackwand strike Loraan "on-screen" isn't really > germane. Unless someone was to suggest that Loraan stabbed himself with a > sword and Steve just didn't bother telling us about it. That seems a little > far-fetched. Couple this with the "take it up with Blackwand" comment and > you'd have a hard time arguing that textev doesn't support Blackwand > striking Loraan. Morollan certainly seems to believe she did so. (Maybe the > quibble is with the words "run through", though?) > You will note that at no point does it say *directly* that Morrolan struck Loraan with Blackwand while Loraan was alive. We are given some observations, and are lead to make assumptions. SKZB likes messing with people's assumptions, I nearly think. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 5 12:45:30 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:45:30 -0700 Subject: Yuck References: <44848882.9080308@brazee.net> Message-ID: > >1. Vlad nails Loraan with a dagger in an especially bad spot, killing him > >instantly. > >2. Blackwand swipes Loraan across the chest, but since he's dead, his soul > >is safe. > >3. One of Loraan's guards comes around and revivifies him later. > > > > > How fast does one lose his soul with a normal weapon? Unless his > brain explodes, I see it taking several seconds at least. Besides a neck or spineshot, through the eye or from under the jaw, I don't see it happening. Textev seems to link the soul to the central nervous system, and besides directly destroying that, it takes about 3 minutes to bleed out sufficiently to "kill" the brain from oxygen deprivation. Jeff -is somewhat disturbed by how fast he recalled that information. From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Mon Jun 5 14:06:49 2006 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:06:49 -0400 Subject: Reading Order WAS Re: Iceflame was Tukko (Massive words of Issola Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606021832yfdcbf5fgec4f7efdb05180b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info wrote on 06/02/2006 09:32:29 PM: > On 6/2/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > Martin Wohlert wrote: > > > However, even after a re-read (or is it two?) I still think that the > > > the ending of _Issola_ is quite woolly... > > It does go by rather quickly, and /Issola/ of all the Vlad books, is, to > > date, the one that is most dependent on having read the other books (esp > > /Dragon/, /TPG/ and /FHYA/) to fully appreciate. > > > > Perhaps /Dzur/ will eclipse it in this respect. I think Steve may have > > given up on the idea of writing the books in such a way that the order > > does not matter. > > > > My introduction to Dragaera was a brief mention of it on a Usenet group a > year and a half or so ago, followed by a skim through a web page (not sure > whose), followed by a glance at Tor's sample chapter of Issola. That was the > hook; I found a copy of Issola and read it and loved it, and went looking > for the other books to figure out all the backstory. I kept hoping each > story would reveal how Vlad lost his finger; eventually I figured out that I > hadn't missed anything, Steve just never explained it. :) I don't know that > I "fully" appreciated /Issola/ the first time through, since I hadn't read > Orca. For instance, the Third Floor Relic quip made no impression on me > whatsoever. But I didn't "fully" appreciate Yendi the first time either, for > the same reason. > > I think Steve did a marvellous job of making Issola a viable entry-point > into the series, and I hope /Dzur/ is just as good. > > -Max same here. issola was my first brust book. i was able to follow it fine the first time i read it. (i then went out the next day and bought all of the brust books i could get my hands on). i will say though, that the second time i read issola (after having read the rest of the books) it was like reading a different book. the story kind of went from two dimensions to three, if that makes any sense. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ The information contained in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s) and may be confidential, proprietary, and/or legally privileged. Inadvertent disclosure of this message does not constitute a waiver of any privilege. If you receive this message in error, please do not directly or indirectly use, print, copy, forward, or disclose any part of this message. Please also delete this e-mail and all copies and notify the sender. Thank you. For alternate languages please go to http://bayerdisclaimer.bayerweb.com _______________________________________________________________________________________________ From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 5 14:21:29 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:21:29 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/05/06 12:43 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Yuck >And if I know anything about Brust, we probably never will. Or at >least not until M makes an oblique comment somewhere in the /The Last >Contract/, maybe. Oooo... This should be the one narrated by Morrolan. >You will note that at no point does it say *directly* that Morrolan >struck Loraan with Blackwand while Loraan was alive. We are given >some observations, and are lead to make assumptions. It's often hard to tell when SKZB is being deliberately misleading for an important reason, and when he's throwing in a red herring to disguise all the other misleading observation that *are* important. >SKZB likes messing with people's assumptions, I nearly think. It's harder to find the trees in the middle of a forrest. Majikjon From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 14:24:06 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:24:06 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4484A0F6.3000308@Sun.COM> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote On 06/05/06 14:21,: > It's harder to find the trees in the middle of a forrest. > Majikjon Unless you're good at climbing those trees. :) Chris From lincicum at comcast.net Mon Jun 5 15:26:54 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:26:54 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> References: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> Howard Brazee wrote: > What status do we give the souls of gods and demons? You think Verra has a soul? We've seen precious little text evidence of this. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 18:45:51 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:45:51 -0400 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Hurrah, my work has been quoted, my life is complete. On 6/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > "Scott Schultz" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/05/06 11:18 AM > > To > "'Dragaera List'" > cc > > Subject > RE: Yuck > > > > > > >I'm not so sure about the lack of textev. > > > >"I managed to support myself and saw Loraan. My knife was in his stomach, > >and there was a large cut, as from a sword, in his chest directly over > the > >heart. He seemed to be rather dead." > > > >The fact that we didn't see Blackwand strike Loraan "on-screen" isn't > really > >germane. Unless someone was to suggest that Loraan stabbed himself with a > >sword and Steve just didn't bother telling us about it. That seems a > little > >far-fetched. Couple this with the "take it up with Blackwand" comment and > >you'd have a hard time arguing that textev doesn't support Blackwand > >striking Loraan. Morollan certainly seems to believe she did so. (Maybe > the > >quibble is with the words "run through", though?) > > One thing I noticed when re-reading this passage, was that Vlad had nailed > Loraan with a thrown dagger moments before. > > Now, under the "It-can't-get-any-worse rule", a person who is already dead > is immune to the morganti soul-destroying effect... So, tenative theory: > > 1. Vlad nails Loraan with a dagger in an especially bad spot, killing him > instantly. > 2. Blackwand swipes Loraan across the chest, but since he's dead, his soul > is safe. > 3. One of Loraan's guards comes around and revivifies him later. > > Of course, this is by no means conclusive, and depends on a rather abrupt > deminse on the part of Loraan to work. We may be dealing with the whole > "soul-in-a-box" (or equivilent) situation here instead. > > I've more or less suspended my judgement on this point, after debating > about it for the wiki article on Loraan. If Steve chooses to tell us what > happened, it'll answer it, if not, I don't think we have enough > information to say for sure one way or the other. > > Majikjon > > > From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 03:11:47 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:11:47 -0400 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <448487F7.1030303@brazee.net> References: <0ab701c688c3$c5cc7930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <448487F7.1030303@brazee.net> Message-ID: Her body noticeably does not produce body heat and she is pale beyond pale. Notice that paleness of skin is only confused with one living character-Zerika-and I suspect that's because she's a Phoenix. On 6/5/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > Scott Schultz wrote: > > >>Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's > alive. > > > >And if the duck doesn't eat, doesn't breathe, doesn't circulate blood and > >none of its internal organs are operational? > > > >You seem to be taking the stance that ambulatory = alive. > > > > > This duck is a light eater, this talks duck talks (which implies she > breaths). I haven't had the opportunity to bleed that duck. This > duck's brain, larynx, senses, & muscles work quite well, I haven't had > a chance to observe its spleen in action, but I would say that this duck > has guts. (Or Dickens would say "bowels"). > > This duck is able to pass as alive by observant people. > > > From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jun 6 04:22:54 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 07:22:54 -0400 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <448487F7.1030303@brazee.net> References: <0ab701c688c3$c5cc7930$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <448487F7.1030303@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4485658E.1070409@email.ers.usda.gov> Howard Brazee wrote: > > This duck is able to pass as alive by observant people. > That would make it a Turing duck, I suppose ;-) Snarkhunter From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 6 05:08:33 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (mtiller at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:08:33 +0000 Subject: Prejudice against undead Message-ID: <20060606120833.GYQY16286.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> > > From: Ken Koester > Date: 2006/06/06 Tue AM 11:22:54 GMT > To: 'Dragaera' > Subject: Re: Prejudice against undead > > Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > > This duck is able to pass as alive by observant people. > > > > That would make it a Turing duck, I suppose ;-) > > Snarkhunter > Only if you couldn't tell it from a real duck if it was at the other end of a teletype.... and give your average ducks typing skills, that might be difficult :-) ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 6 08:51:31 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:51:31 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <448487F7.1030303@brazee.net> Message-ID: <107501c68981$15082680$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >This duck is a light eater, this talks duck talks (which implies she >breaths). I haven't had the opportunity to bleed that duck. This >duck's brain, larynx, senses, & muscles work quite well, I haven't had >a chance to observe its spleen in action, but I would say that this duck >has guts. (Or Dickens would say "bowels"). >This duck is able to pass as alive by observant people. The truth of your conclusion seems irrefutable. It doesn't appear to be the same statement as the original, though, which was: "Yep. But when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - she's alive." "Passing as alive" is not the same as "she's alive". Yes, she eats; for pleasure, not for sustenance. Yes, she breathes; for communication, not for sustenance. Yes, she ambulates; her body would be of very little use in the world otherwise. As for the bowels, I'd say that's an open question, but since she DOES eat, one presumes that something happens to the ingested food. She's a simulucrum of life, despite appearances. We end up back at the question of just what does undead mean? The "walks like a duck" statement is a philosophical statement rather than a scientific statement. I'll grant you that the question is an academic one and that for all practical purposes Sethra may as well be treated as if she's alive. The Necromancer's view on death, "It is sometimes an inconvenience" (or close to that) may as well be applied to Sethra also. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 6 09:07:01 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:07:01 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <107501c68981$15082680$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/06/06 08:51 AM To "'Dragaera'" cc Subject RE: Prejudice against undead >>This duck is able to pass as alive by observant people. > >The truth of your conclusion seems irrefutable. Except that a truly observant person would note the pale skin, the lack of appetite, the absence of a heartbeat... I would say "This duck is able to pass as undead by observant people." (Or should that be "to observant people"?) Only an unobservant person would mistake the duck for being truly alive. >"Passing as alive" is not the same as "she's alive". Yes, she eats; for >pleasure, not for sustenance. Yes, she breathes; for communication, not for >sustenance. Yes, she ambulates; her body would be of very little use in the >world otherwise. As for the bowels, I'd say that's an open question, but >since she DOES eat, one presumes that something happens to the ingested >food. She's a simulucrum of life, despite appearances. This sums it up rather nicely. >We end up back at the question of just what does undead mean? The "walks >like a duck" statement is a philosophical statement rather than a scientific >statement. I'll grant you that the question is an academic one and that for >all practical purposes Sethra may as well be treated as if she's alive. The >Necromancer's view on death, "It is sometimes an inconvenience" (or close to >that) may as well be applied to Sethra also. I suppose if you're dealing with an undead person from a practical point of view, you might as well treat them as being alive. The fact that they are animate is enough of a simulation of life that the differences are typically unimportant from a pragmatic standpoint. Just be careful about how you choose to insult them--you may embarass yourself. "I'm trying to think of a polite way to tell you to drop dead." "Don't bother. I died before the Interregnum." Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jun 6 10:25:19 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:25:19 -0400 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c6898e$2ff95ab0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Majikjon writ: > Except that a truly observant person would note... > the absence of a heartbeat... Do we have explicit textev for no heartbeat for Sethra? Pale skin and lack of appetite I recall. Lack of a beating heart I don't recall being explicitly mentioned. From howard at brazee.net Tue Jun 6 11:07:13 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:07:13 -0600 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <000401c6898e$2ff95ab0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <000401c6898e$2ff95ab0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <4485C451.2090009@brazee.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: >Majikjon writ: > > >>Except that a truly observant person would note... >>the absence of a heartbeat... >> >> > >Do we have explicit textev for no heartbeat for Sethra? Pale skin and >lack of appetite I recall. Lack of a beating heart I don't recall >being explicitly mentioned. > >_ > Maybe you and I aren't truly observant. Do you recall anybody being touched by her? From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 6 11:11:14 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:11:14 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <000401c6898e$2ff95ab0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <12fd01c68994$99831e70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Do we have explicit textev for no heartbeat for Sethra? Pale skin and >lack of appetite I recall. Lack of a beating heart I don't recall >being explicitly mentioned. Sethra has said nothing on the subject that I'm aware of. I rather doubt that any of Our Heroes have gotten intimate enough with Sethra to give a first-hand report. (Did Vlad once get creeped out at the idea that Sethra and Morollan might be lovers?) So, no textev. The pale skin could be taken as indirect evidence, being caused by the lack of bloodflow. Pushing blood around is pretty much what a heart does. If there's no blood to push around, the only reason for a heartbeat would be mystical ones related to whatever magic or miracle it is that allows Sethra to exist at all. Until someone sticks her with a syringe or comments on her corpse-cold touch, I suppose we just have to speculate. Has Vlad or anyone described Sethra's touch? The Necromancer is undead, and Vlad is creeped out at being caressed by her in Dragon. Her touch is described as "very, very cold". While The Necromancer clearly isn't in the same category as Sethra ("That's how you die. That's how he dies. That's how she dies. It's all very personal.") it would seem that cold, pale skin would be a commonality between them, implying that dead people in general have no need of niceties like beating hearts and flowing blood. I wonder how Vlad feels today about the day he "gave as good as I got"? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 6 11:15:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:15:52 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <4485C451.2090009@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/06/06 11:07 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Prejudice against undead Casey Rousseau wrote: >Do we have explicit textev for no heartbeat for Sethra? Pale skin and >lack of appetite I recall. Lack of a beating heart I don't recall >being explicitly mentioned. Textev for no heartbeat--no. I was inferring that the undead would not have one, but this is a completely supported observation. It is a common element for every form of undead I have ever seen in any genre, however, this does not mean it is true in Sethra's case. I cheerfully withdraw the comment. >Maybe you and I aren't truly observant. Do you recall anybody being >touched by her? Hmm.. you mean, other than Iceflame? And Aliera, while encased in a staff of wood? Why no. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 6 11:22:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:22:09 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <12fd01c68994$99831e70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/06/06 11:11 AM To cc Subject RE: Prejudice against undead >Has Vlad or anyone described Sethra's touch? The Necromancer is undead, and >Vlad is creeped out at being caressed by her in Dragon. Her touch is >described as "very, very cold". While The Necromancer clearly isn't in the >she dies. It's all very personal.") it would seem that cold, pale skin would >be a commonality between them, implying that dead people in general have no >need of niceties like beating hearts and flowing blood. > >I wonder how Vlad feels today about the day he "gave as good as I got"? Wait a moment--didn't Sethra touch Vlad's arm when it was stunned in /Issola/? Of course, since he had no feeling in it, at the time, this fact is less than useful. Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Tue Jun 6 11:35:32 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:35:32 -0400 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <12fd01c68994$99831e70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <000901c68997$fe6bea30$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> > The pale skin could be taken as indirect evidence, > being caused by the lack of bloodflow. It can also be caused by a lack of oxygenation of the blood. Again, I'm not stating that she definitely has a beating heart, just that I can't recall any explicit evidence that doesn't have one. All this is to say that when I label a waddling, quacking creature a duck, you may be misconstruing my meaning if you imagine it either yellow and fluffy, or black and brown with an iridescent blue-green head. In particular, _I_ would be likely to label the former a duckling and the latter a drake, but then I'm an annoying pedant. Steve's merely sneaky, underhanded, prone to dispelling preconceptions and playing his cards close to his chest. :) Casey From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 12:41:38 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:41:38 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <12fd01c68994$99831e70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <000401c6898e$2ff95ab0$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> <12fd01c68994$99831e70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606061241r46a45294l82c3ccbbdc4f3b1b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/6/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Has Vlad or anyone described Sethra's touch? The Necromancer is undead, > and > Vlad is creeped out at being caressed by her in Dragon. Her touch is > described as "very, very cold". I remember Vlad describing a kiss from Sethra as "warm-despite-the-cold." /Jhereg/, I think, in Morrolan's ballroom. While The Necromancer clearly isn't in the > same category as Sethra ("That's how you die. That's how he dies. That's > how > she dies. It's all very personal.") Is this a Vladian quote, or a TV reference to something else? It doesn't ring a bell. I wonder how Vlad feels today about the day he "gave as good as I got"? > Remind me, please. Thanks, -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From porthos at calweb.com Tue Jun 6 13:14:05 2006 From: porthos at calweb.com (John Hutton) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:14:05 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4485E20D.3050305@calweb.com> [NOTE::: Sorry about the duplicate, Jon... I accidently sent my reply originally only to you, and not the list proper.] Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Wait a moment--didn't Sethra touch Vlad's arm when it was stunned in > /Issola/? > > Of course, since he had no feeling in it, at the time, this fact is less > than useful. > > Majikjon > Delurking for a moment... The exact textev is: I said, "Evidently the nerves have been damaged, too; I can't feel your charming, cold, undead fingers." /Issola/ HB pg 191 Relurking..... John From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 6 13:24:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:24:03 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <4485E20D.3050305@calweb.com> Message-ID: John Hutton Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/06/06 01:14 PM Please respond to porthos at calweb.com To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Prejudice against undead >[NOTE::: Sorry about the duplicate, Jon... I accidently sent my reply >originally only to you, and not the list proper.] No problem, I'm used to dupes anyway. >Delurking for a moment... > >The exact textev is: > >I said, "Evidently the nerves have been damaged, too; I can't feel your >charming, cold, undead fingers." > >/Issola/ HB pg 191 > >Relurking..... This is interesting, in that it does imply that Vlad *has* felt her cold, undead fingers at some point in the past. He may thus be in a good position to judge whether she has a beating heart. While coldness of the flesh doesn't guarantee that she has no heartbeat, it certainly leans in that direction. Either that or she's a snake or a lizard. (Or a Dragon? ;-) ) Majikjon From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 6 13:57:16 2006 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 21:57:16 +0100 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: <02f401c688a3$749ed190$3501a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <20060606205723.QMBX16286.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@UKLP2100> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera- > bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Casey Rousseau > Sent: 05 June 2006 14:25 > To: 'Dragaera List' > Subject: RE: Life-states > > > I'd quibble. All of the life states described by Davdi reflect the > status of the soul. The following involve the body, but the soul is > what is important for life. A brief restatement from a soul-centric > view might look like: > > Alive: soul attached to natural body in normal fashion > Dead: soul attached to natural body that is not currently functional, > revification possible. > Permanently dead: soul no longer attached to corpse. Revification not > possible. > Destroyed: soul has been "eaten" by a Morganti weapon wounding the > body while soul attached in 'alive' state. > Disembodied: detached soul - see permanently dead. > Undead: soul reattached to former corpse by unspecified interventions. > 'Bodily' functions undefined. > Undead Vampiric: see undead. No explicit explanation in textev. May or > may not be distinct. > > I think you've forgotten a couple. Mostly Dead: Pretty much shuffled off this mortal coil, but has unfinished business. Can be bought back to life..... but it would take a miracle.... and a noble cause.... Stunned: Often mistaken for death, frequently occurs when trying to wake certain bird species, however unlikely to affect ducks. :-) Mark From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 6 15:26:48 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:26:48 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <171301c689b8$4d510160$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >This is interesting, in that it does imply that Vlad *has* felt her cold, >undead fingers at some point in the past. Or just that he has a penchant for being a smartass. ;-) From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 6 15:41:33 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:41:33 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606061241r46a45294l82c3ccbbdc4f3b1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <171401c689ba$5d081150$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I remember Vlad describing a kiss from Sethra as "warm-despite-the-cold." >/Jhereg/, I think, in Morrolan's ballroom. This is more of an emotional reference than a reference to a physical reference, I'd think. Sethra greets him warmly while the rest of the guests give him an understandably chilly reception. >>While The Necromancer clearly isn't in the >>same category as Sethra ("That's how you die. That's how he dies. That's how >>she dies. It's all very personal.") >Is this a Vladian quote, or a TV reference to something else? It doesn't ring a bell. Beetlejuice reference. It's the explanation given for why the afterlife isn't quite what the main characters of the movie expected it to be. >I wonder how Vlad feels today about the day he "gave as good as I got"? That would require a spoiler warning, but if you review the "council of war" in _Jhereg_ you should see what I was referring to. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jun 6 16:18:55 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 16:18:55 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <171301c689b8$4d510160$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <171301c689b8$4d510160$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <44860D5F.7050801@comcast.net> Scott Schultz wrote: >> This is interesting, in that it does imply that Vlad *has* felt her cold, >> undead fingers at some point in the past. >> > > Or just that he has a penchant for being a smartass. ;-) > Well, that's pretty much a given. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 16:47:44 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:47:44 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <171401c689ba$5d081150$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ddbda5f0606061241r46a45294l82c3ccbbdc4f3b1b@mail.gmail.com> <171401c689ba$5d081150$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606061647w6e48f5e1o5508cf061854b45e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/6/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > That would require a spoiler warning, but if you review the "council of war" > in _Jhereg_ you should see what I was referring to. > I'm out of state for the summer. Is the day he "gave as good as [he] got" Ch. 16 of Jhereg? No, that doesn't make sense... -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From debby_corey at alltel.net Tue Jun 6 16:56:24 2006 From: debby_corey at alltel.net (Debby Corey) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:56:24 -0400 Subject: Taltos References: <20060606170010.F31FBE954F@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> This may have been mentioned in the past (most questions have at some point or time in all lists) but I was just rereading Taltos and came across Vlad's first meeting with Morrolan. In the first paragraph, Morrolan has ". . hair was very dark, straight, and long enough to cover his ears." Five paragraphs later, it reads: "His hair was black and shoulder-length and curly and just a bit neglected." Hmmm. Something not caught in editing? Or a Dragaerian trait? Just curious. Debby From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jun 6 17:20:55 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 17:20:55 -0700 Subject: Taltos In-Reply-To: <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> References: <20060606170010.F31FBE954F@gw.dd-b.net> <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> Message-ID: <44861BE7.8080301@comcast.net> Debby Corey wrote: > This may have been mentioned in the past (most questions have at some point or > time in all lists) but I was just rereading Taltos and came across Vlad's first > meeting with Morrolan. > > In the first paragraph, Morrolan has ". . hair was very dark, straight, and long > enough to cover his ears." Five paragraphs later, it reads: "His hair was black > and shoulder-length and curly and just a bit neglected." > > Hmmm. Something not caught in editing? Or a Dragaerian trait? Just curious. > Vlad was probably just mis-remembering. Since /Taltos/ was narrated some weeks or months after the events it describes, he may have just been getting Morrolan's hairstyle *then* confused with his hairstyle in the *now*. Vlad doesn't remember a lot of things very well... That foolish old man who paid Vlad to speak into a silver box obviously got ripped off. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 17:40:40 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:40:40 -0700 Subject: Taltos In-Reply-To: <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> References: <20060606170010.F31FBE954F@gw.dd-b.net> <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606061740w2a852b7bp54bbaa94212c8187@mail.gmail.com> On 6/6/06, Debby Corey wrote: > In the first paragraph, Morrolan has ". . hair was very dark, straight, and long > enough to cover his ears." Five paragraphs later, it reads: "His hair was black > and shoulder-length and curly and just a bit neglected." A mistake initially, IIRC. But in Issola there is a comment about how Morrolan is the sort of fellow who likes to change his hairstyle frequently; I wonder if this is a sly acknowledgement of the slip in Taltos. Or maybe Morrolan changes his hair *really* frequently. -Maximilian -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 17:49:27 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:49:27 -0700 Subject: Taltos In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606061740w2a852b7bp54bbaa94212c8187@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060606170010.F31FBE954F@gw.dd-b.net> <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> <2ddbda5f0606061740w2a852b7bp54bbaa94212c8187@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606061749r6168e125u5b063a0bd6e8642c@mail.gmail.com> On 6/6/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > A mistake initially, IIRC. But in Issola there is a comment about how ^^^^^ I meant "IMHO." -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From allandaros at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 18:10:12 2006 From: allandaros at gmail.com (Allandaros Shadowslayer) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 21:10:12 -0400 Subject: Taltos In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606061740w2a852b7bp54bbaa94212c8187@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060606170010.F31FBE954F@gw.dd-b.net> <005101c689c4$d1b7b230$6502a8c0@DEBBY> <2ddbda5f0606061740w2a852b7bp54bbaa94212c8187@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/6/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > A mistake initially, IIRC. But in Issola there is a comment about how > Morrolan is the sort of fellow who likes to change his hairstyle > frequently; I wonder if this is a sly acknowledgement of the slip in > Taltos. Or maybe Morrolan changes his hair *really* frequently. It's listed as a crack over at C&S. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 20:12:10 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:12:10 -0400 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: <171401c689ba$5d081150$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <2ddbda5f0606061241r46a45294l82c3ccbbdc4f3b1b@mail.gmail.com> <171401c689ba$5d081150$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "deal with her any more, so I cut the conversation short. She gave me a warm-despite-the-cold kiss on the cheek; she either knew or suspected, but wasn't talking. I exchanged pleasant smiles with ?" What I understood from the scene was that, despite Sethra's lips being cold, her kiss was very friendly-thus, 'warm'. For some reason your reason seems kind of alien and stretched...I suppose you could make the connection, but the undead explanation seems to be more plausible. On 6/6/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >I remember Vlad describing a kiss from Sethra as "warm-despite-the-cold." > >/Jhereg/, I think, in Morrolan's ballroom. > > This is more of an emotional reference than a reference to a physical > reference, I'd think. Sethra greets him warmly while the rest of the > guests > give him an understandably chilly reception. > > >>While The Necromancer clearly isn't in the > >>same category as Sethra ("That's how you die. That's how he dies. That's > how > >>she dies. It's all very personal.") > > >Is this a Vladian quote, or a TV reference to something else? It doesn't > ring a bell. > > Beetlejuice reference. It's the explanation given for why the afterlife > isn't quite what the main characters of the movie expected it to be. > > >I wonder how Vlad feels today about the day he "gave as good as I got"? > > That would require a spoiler warning, but if you review the "council of > war" > in _Jhereg_ you should see what I was referring to. > > > > From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 22:26:40 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 22:26:40 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: References: <150d01c688cc$7e754b80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > One thing I noticed when re-reading this passage, was that Vlad had nailed > Loraan with a thrown dagger moments before. > > Now, under the "It-can't-get-any-worse rule", a person who is already dead > is immune to the morganti soul-destroying effect... So, tenative theory: > > 1. Vlad nails Loraan with a dagger in an especially bad spot, killing him > instantly. For the sake of pedantic completeness, there's another possibility, and a new one that I just recently thought of: 1a. When Loraan realizes that there is a dagger in his stomach (and that he is therefore badly damaged), and Morollan is approaching rapidly with Blackwand, he decides that he's quite literally in danger of a fate worse than death, and uses his necromantic powers to force his soul to unbind from his body (that is, die), thus cheating Blackwand when she actually strikes his physical body. 1b. Another possibility is that Loraan doesn't quite realize just how powerful Blackwand is, and tries the same necromantic soul-expulsion spell that he uses later on Riens. Blackwand says the equivalent of "Not a bloody chance, sucker", and bounces the spell back at him (a slam return, with english) forcing his soul to unbind from his body, only with worse effects than if he'd done it intentionally, which explains the later undeadness. > 2. Blackwand swipes Loraan across the chest, but since he's dead, his soul > is safe. > 3. One of Loraan's guards comes around and revivifies him later. > > Of course, this is by no means conclusive, and depends on a rather abrupt > deminse on the part of Loraan to work. We may be dealing with the whole > "soul-in-a-box" (or equivilent) situation here instead. > > I've more or less suspended my judgement on this point, after debating > about it for the wiki article on Loraan. If Steve chooses to tell us what > happened, it'll answer it, if not, I don't think we have enough > information to say for sure one way or the other. Which is why it's Speculation:Loraan, of course. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 22:41:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 22:41:56 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> References: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/5/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Howard Brazee wrote: > > What status do we give the souls of gods and demons? > > You think Verra has a soul? > > We've seen precious little text evidence of this. > Heh. Still, she has something that appears to serve. Call it a soul, for it is solely hers. To add to my list: Multilocatable (Divine): A soul and body capable of manifesting in more than one location at the same time, without being controllable by others. Multilocatable (Demonic): A soul and body capable of manifesting in more than one location at the same time, but controllable by others. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jun 6 23:44:18 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: References: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Multilocatable (Divine): A soul and body capable of manifesting in > more than one location at the same time, without being controllable by > others. > > Multilocatable (Demonic): A soul and body capable of manifesting in > more than one location at the same time, but controllable by others. To lapse into physicsesque jargon, the soul might be non-local. There might e.g. be a simply-connected soul overlapping the multiple bodies. There might be one body, for that matter - running in different threads of ... whatever the hell the Dragaeraverse is running on. Which might help explain the odd time phenomena associated with the Paths. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 7 06:43:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 06:43:36 -0700 Subject: Yuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/06/06 10:26 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Yuck >For the sake of pedantic completeness, there's another possibility, >and a new one that I just recently thought of: > >1a. When Loraan realizes that there is a dagger in his stomach (and >that he is therefore badly damaged), and Morollan is approaching >rapidly with Blackwand, he decides that he's quite literally in danger >of a fate worse than death, and uses his necromantic powers to force >his soul to unbind from his body (that is, die), thus cheating >Blackwand when she actually strikes his physical body. This is similar to the idea I had on the wiki that maybe he had enchanted himself to die if a morganti weapon ever came too close to him... A useful kind of self-defense spell for one skilled in necromancy. >1b. Another possibility is that Loraan doesn't quite realize just how >powerful Blackwand is, and tries the same necromantic soul-expulsion >spell that he uses later on Riens. Blackwand says the equivalent of >"Not a bloody chance, sucker", and bounces the spell back at him (a >slam return, with english) forcing his soul to unbind from his body, >only with worse effects than if he'd done it intentionally, which >explains the later undeadness. Hmmm... I think I like this one better than any of the others, since: a) It has him using a spell he is known to have used later, thus his M.O. is the same in both instances b) No matter how useful it might be, Loraan's pride would make it unlikely that he would ever deliberately kill himself, no matter what the consequences might be c) It leaves both Vlad and Morrolan unaware of exactly what happened to him, making it seem as if Blackwand had actually cut into him while he was still alive The only drawback to this theory is that while we have seen Blackwand "absorb" the power of spells, we haven't ever seen her act as a tennis racket and bounce them back at someone. At least, not that I recall. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 7 07:01:16 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:01:16 -0600 Subject: Yuck Message-ID: <4486DC2C.3000000@brazee.net> On 7:43 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > This is similar to the idea I had on the wiki that maybe he had > enchanted > himself to die if a morganti weapon ever came too close to him... A > useful kind of self-defense spell for one skilled in necromancy. Can such a spell be smart enough to not kill him unless the threat is high enough? He should be able to hold a Great Weapon without dying. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 7 07:15:56 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 07:15:56 -0700 Subject: More Loraan Speculation (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: <4486DC2C.3000000@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/07/06 07:01 AM To cc Dragaera List Subject Re: Yuck >On 7:43 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> This is similar to the idea I had on the wiki that maybe he had >> enchanted >> himself to die if a morganti weapon ever came too close to him... A >> useful kind of self-defense spell for one skilled in necromancy. > >Can such a spell be smart enough to not kill him unless the threat is >high enough? He should be able to hold a Great Weapon without dying. Hmm... If the Great Weapon were bound to him, I don't see it being a problem. It could be worked into the spell. It the Great Weapon were *not* bound to him, I can't see it being too happy about the prospect, and thus, he might need that protective spell, after all. This does bring up an interesting point, however. Could Loraan have his own Great Weapon? (Mayhap that rune-covered longsword that Vlad noted in /Taltos/?) It might explain, by itself, how he survived the Blackwand encounter, and also why the gods might have been willing to let him return from the paths as an undead at some point. Certainly, since he had Spellbreaker in his possesion, we might conclude that he was gathering artifacts related to Great Weapons to further his own causes. Who's to say he might not have acquired a *complete* Great Weapon from somewhere? This, of course, leaves open the distinct possibility that Savn didn't actually finish him off, and that lovable Loraan is still with us. Majikjon From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 07:36:31 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:36:31 -0400 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606061241r46a45294l82c3ccbbdc4f3b1b@mail.gmail.com> <171401c689ba$5d081150$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2be528100606070736s4f88235i7b687558006164bc@mail.gmail.com> > > >I remember Vlad describing a kiss from Sethra as "warm-despite-the-cold." > > >/Jhereg/, I think, in Morrolan's ballroom. > > > > This is more of an emotional reference than a reference to a physical > > reference, I'd think. Sethra greets him warmly while the rest of the > > guests > > give him an understandably chilly reception. > > My impression was that the kiss was emotionally warm, but physically cold. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 7 08:25:29 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:25:29 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0d3a01c68a46$9ccd4580$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >"deal with her any more, so I cut the conversation short. She gave me a >warm-despite-the-cold kiss on the cheek; she either knew or suspected, >but wasn't talking. I exchanged pleasant smiles with ." >What I understood from the scene was that, despite Sethra's lips being >cold, her kiss was very friendly-thus, 'warm'. I'd never thought about it like that for some reason. I think I'd just never really thought about Sethra's body temperature before this thread. *heh* Anyway, sounds like a perfectly plausible interpretation. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 7 09:20:05 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:20:05 -0700 Subject: Prejudice against undead *_Orca_ Spoiler Warning* No, really, don't read this if you haven't read _Orca_! In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606061647w6e48f5e1o5508cf061854b45e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0fcd01c68a4e$3d56aad0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I'm out of state for the summer. Is the day he "gave as good as [he] >got" Ch. 16 of Jhereg? No, that doesn't make sense... >-Max My bad. It's in the early portion of _Jhereg_, not the later portion. Since we don't seem to have any newbies about lately, I'll just dispense with the obtusity. (Yay for made-up words!) "[Kiera] moved with ease and grace, almost reminiscent of Mario. She flowed up to me and gave me a kiss that would have made Cawti jealous if she were the jealous type. I gave as good as I got, and pulled up a chair for her." Gotta wonder how Vlad feels about that now. Or the adolescent fantasies he no doubt had about Kiera. For that matter, what does the above passage suggest about Sethra's tastes? Maybe there's more than one reason why she's such good friends with Vlad... From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 11:27:35 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 11:27:35 -0700 Subject: Want your own Blackwand? Message-ID: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> A friend of mine pointed me to this site. I look forward to seeing the various products they come up with. I trust Steve knows about it. (Do you?) http://filmswords.com/brust/brust.htm :) Chris PS-I didn't miss a post about this, did I? From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:03:41 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:03:41 -0700 Subject: Want your own Blackwand? In-Reply-To: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> References: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 6/7/06, Chris Olson wrote: > A friend of mine pointed me to this site. > > I look forward to seeing the various products they come up with. > > I trust Steve knows about it. (Do you?) > > http://filmswords.com/brust/brust.htm > > PS-I didn't miss a post about this, did I? While this is the first time I have seen this page to my knowledge, a little fiddling with the wayback machine discloses that the page has existed, with slightly varying page format and text, since at least October 2002. That's a bit of a while, I nearly think, with no result. Vaporcutlery, perhaps? From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:06:57 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:06:57 -0700 Subject: Want your own Blackwand? In-Reply-To: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> References: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606071206qead97d3kb9b622027650a1c2@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/06, Chris Olson wrote: > A friend of mine pointed me to this site. > > I look forward to seeing the various products they come up with. Heh. I went looking for Shieldbreaker but couldn't find it. -Max I shatter Swords and splinter spears; None stands to Shieldbreaker. My point's the fount of orphans' tears My edge the widowmaker. http://www.berserker.com/info_swdsong.htm -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:21:16 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:21:16 -0700 Subject: More Loraan Speculation (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: References: <4486DC2C.3000000@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 6/7/06, wrote: > > This does bring up an interesting point, however. Could Loraan have his > own Great Weapon? (Mayhap that rune-covered longsword that Vlad noted in > /Taltos/?) It might explain, by itself, how he survived the Blackwand > encounter, and also why the gods might have been willing to let him return > from the paths as an undead at some point. > > Certainly, since he had Spellbreaker in his possesion, we might conclude > that he was gathering artifacts related to Great Weapons to further his > own causes. Who's to say he might not have acquired a *complete* Great > Weapon from somewhere? > Hm. I would tend to think not. If he had a Great Weapon, he would have gone for it immediately upon being attacked (and when facing down Vlad in /Athyra/). It stands to reason that you would use a Great Weapon to defend yourself, if you have it, yes? My speculation is that his collecting artifacts relating to Great Weapons was so as to re-create Godslayer, which in turn was so as to have an edge if the gods ever found out about his role in permitting a Jenoine to partially manifest in Dragaera. From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 7 12:24:25 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 13:24:25 -0600 Subject: More Loraan Speculation (was Re: Yuck) Message-ID: <448727E9.9090604@brazee.net> On 1:21 PM Davdi Silverrock wrote: > My speculation is that his collecting artifacts relating to Great > Weapons was so as to re-create Godslayer, which in turn was so as to > have an edge if the gods ever found out about his role in permitting a > Jenoine to partially manifest in Dragaera. Someone like him would want Great Weapon artifacts without needing any reason. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 12:31:54 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:31:54 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: References: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/6/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > Multilocatable (Divine): A soul and body capable of manifesting in > > more than one location at the same time, without being controllable by > > others. > > > > Multilocatable (Demonic): A soul and body capable of manifesting in > > more than one location at the same time, but controllable by others. > > > To lapse into physicsesque jargon, the soul might be non-local. There > might e.g. be a simply-connected soul overlapping the multiple bodies. > > There might be one body, for that matter - running in different threads > of ... whatever the hell the Dragaeraverse is running on. Which might > help explain the odd time phenomena associated with the Paths. There's got to be cooler jargon than that. *mumble* *mumble* multiple overlapping quantum eigenstates with discrete soliton wavefronts bound by a sheaf of spacetime continua hyperstrings *handwave, look, the wing?d Victory of Samothrace* Although perhaps "quantum" is sufficiently overused so as to be pass?. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 13:09:07 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 13:09:07 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: References: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606071309s48fe7d37vb4829e9de5324d08@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Although perhaps "quantum" is sufficiently overused so as to be pass?. "Quantized," then. -Maximilian -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From attjen at gwu.edu Wed Jun 7 14:10:48 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:10:48 -0400 Subject: Paarfi internet slang Message-ID: This is what happens when you have a fever the day after finishing a re- reading of TPG. See how many you can identify (though don't spoil the fun (?) for everyone else by posting the answers): 1. IATYAM 2. C&S or CNS 3. KBs 4. WANB or IANB 5. BotH 6. WYDMTHTSOMWYHJS 7. IDP 8. TYPYAO 9. BIEI 10. DTTTIMW 11. WWHAATWMG 12. NMBD Those'll be common usage in no time, right? (and that's not mentioning all the others ones we'd probably be able to come up with.) Matt From dosanjh at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 15:31:15 2006 From: dosanjh at gmail.com (Sonu Dosanjh) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:31:15 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 In-Reply-To: <20060607170013.16DBFE96D3@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060607170013.16DBFE96D3@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <252e9da40606071531lc67cb5djea0c5fd576e761ff@mail.gmail.com> >"[Kiera] moved with ease and grace, almost reminiscent of Mario. She flowed >up to me and gave me a kiss that would have made Cawti jealous if she were the jealous type. I gave as good as I got, and pulled up a chair for her." >Gotta wonder how Vlad feels about that now. Or the adolescent fantasies he >no doubt had about Kiera. That, and one is also given to wondering, if he didn't feel that the lips were cold???? Sonu From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Wed Jun 7 15:50:54 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: References: <448485EF.3080305@brazee.net> <4484AFAE.3020103@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/6/6, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > > Multilocatable (Divine): A soul and body capable of manifesting in > > > more than one location at the same time, without being controllable by > > > others. > > > > > > Multilocatable (Demonic): A soul and body capable of manifesting in > > > more than one location at the same time, but controllable by others. > > > > > > To lapse into physicsesque jargon, the soul might be non-local. There > > might e.g. be a simply-connected soul overlapping the multiple bodies. > > > > There might be one body, for that matter - running in different threads > > of ... whatever the hell the Dragaeraverse is running on. Which might > > help explain the odd time phenomena associated with the Paths. > > There's got to be cooler jargon than that. You'll need to consult a theorist, then. People talk about localized gravity on a de Sitter brane in five dimensions. I was going to suggest that demons/gods can get access to a different brane and reenter ours at different points of spacetime. Then "killing" a god would mean causing the entrypoint to be occluded. But of course there's causality and the idea is surely nonsense which I can't begin to understand anyway. Another physicsesque interpretation which I might have mentioned here in the past is the idea that all e.g. electrons are identical because there's just one, moving forward and (as a positron) backwards in time. Allowed to handwave away causality, one might construct multilocatability that way. I do like the idea of Verra forking into three processes during The Great Disaster and just never recombining. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 7 15:59:08 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 *_Orca_ spoiler, you are warned! * In-Reply-To: <252e9da40606071531lc67cb5djea0c5fd576e761ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05bc01c68a85$fc298220$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Spoiler space: >That, and one is also given to wondering, if he didn't feel that the >lips were cold???? >Sonu I think we have to chalk that up to sorcery. Kiera isn't just Sethra in a disguise. She's a completely other person. Different facial features, different height (Kiera is short for a Dragaeran.) and, of course, different complexion. If "Kiera" is partly or completely an illusion, as seems likely, then it's no stretch to imagine that the illusion would affect all five (six?) senses. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 16:42:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:42:27 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 *_Orca_ spoiler, you are warned! * In-Reply-To: <05bc01c68a85$fc298220$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <252e9da40606071531lc67cb5djea0c5fd576e761ff@mail.gmail.com> <05bc01c68a85$fc298220$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/7/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > Spoiler space: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we have to chalk that up to sorcery. Kiera isn't just Sethra in a > disguise. She's a completely other person. Different facial features, > different height (Kiera is short for a Dragaeran.) Textev for this would be appreciated, if it exists. The only comment about a Dragaeran being "short" that I can recall is Aliera, with the additional emphasis that she would levitate, perhaps to compensate (and also perhaps because she was enjoying testing the new and improved Orb). ObKieraQuote: I said, "Tell him it's Kiera." Their eyes grew just a little bit wider. That always happens. It is very satisfying. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 16:56:31 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:56:31 -0700 Subject: The book of the seven wizards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/29/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > I think I noticed another reference to this book. > > In Teckla, Sheryl (sp) mentions there was a book she never understood no > matter how many times she read it. > > Is it possible? Or am I simply channeling the JLU Question? > Who can say? But when I searched using Amazon just now, I spotted this on pg 419 of /The Book of Jhereg/ (and from the context of the page, occurs in /Teckla/ as well): "In fact, according to the /Book of the Seven Wizards/, the Plane of Waiting Souls pulls at us while we're waiting, just like it does Dragaerans." From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 17:27:17 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:27:17 -0400 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 In-Reply-To: <252e9da40606071531lc67cb5djea0c5fd576e761ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060607170013.16DBFE96D3@gw.dd-b.net> <252e9da40606071531lc67cb5djea0c5fd576e761ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Doesn't she look at Vlad's wounds in Orca too? I think whatever she uses to prevent Loiosh from detecting her does the same for her skin. On 6/7/06, Sonu Dosanjh wrote: > > >"[Kiera] moved with ease and grace, almost reminiscent of Mario. She > flowed > >up to me and gave me a kiss that would have made Cawti jealous if > she were > the jealous type. I gave as good as I got, and pulled up a chair for her." > > >Gotta wonder how Vlad feels about that now. Or the adolescent fantasies > he > >no doubt had about Kiera. > > That, and one is also given to wondering, if he didn't feel that the > lips were cold???? > > Sonu > From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 7 17:29:28 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:29:28 -0600 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 *_Orca_ spoiler, you are warned! * In-Reply-To: References: <252e9da40606071531lc67cb5djea0c5fd576e761ff@mail.gmail.com> <05bc01c68a85$fc298220$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <44876F68.9050600@brazee.net> > >ObKieraQuote: > > I said, "Tell him it's Kiera." > Their eyes grew just a little bit wider. > That always happens. > It is very satisfying. > > > One would think that would be old hat. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 8 06:29:11 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:29:11 -0700 Subject: More Loraan Speculation (was Re: Yuck) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/07/06 12:21 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: More Loraan Speculation (was Re: Yuck) (Issola spoiler?) >My speculation is that his collecting artifacts relating to Great >Weapons was so as to re-create Godslayer, which in turn was so as to >have an edge if the gods ever found out about his role in permitting a >Jenoine to partially manifest in Dragaera. A good theory. It is interesting to note that he *did* play a rather crucial (albeit unwilling) role in the recreation of Godslayer by uniting Vlad with Spellbreaker... And, of course, it is fitting that Aliera's soul (later linked to Pathfinder) was present during the process, since Godslayer and Pathfinder are "joined at the hilt" so to speak. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 8 06:37:49 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:37:49 -0700 Subject: Life-states In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/07/06 03:50 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Life-states >People talk about localized gravity on a de Sitter brane in five >dimensions. I was going to suggest that demons/gods can get access >to a different brane and reenter ours at different points of spacetime. >Then "killing" a god would mean causing the entrypoint to be occluded. >But of course there's causality and the idea is surely nonsense which >I can't begin to understand anyway. I must admit, this begins to sound suspiciously like the gods' comments about "the world of seven doors" in reference to the Necromancer. >Another physicsesque interpretation which I might have mentioned here >in the past is the idea that all e.g. electrons are identical because >there's just one, moving forward and (as a positron) backwards in time. >Allowed to handwave away causality, one might construct multilocatability >that way. > >I do like the idea of Verra forking into three processes during >The Great Disaster and just never recombining. Great. Now Verra's got Hyperthreading. Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jun 8 07:39:31 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:39:31 -0400 Subject: Want your own Blackwand? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606071206qead97d3kb9b622027650a1c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> <2ddbda5f0606071206qead97d3kb9b622027650a1c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <448836A3.3050903@email.ers.usda.gov> Maximilian Wilson wrote: > I shatter Swords and splinter spears; > None stands to Shieldbreaker. > My point's the fount of orphans' tears > My edge the widowmaker. > No no--I'm sure the Widowmaker used a burner, unlike the One Armed Bandit, the Tweedles, the Oracle, or Santiago. (Santiago could have said variously to have used other people or his wits, I suppose.) Snarkhunter From attjen at gwu.edu Thu Jun 8 07:41:56 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:41:56 -0400 Subject: Paarfi internet slang (clues) Message-ID: I'm not sure anybody but Casey actually looked at these, but here are some clues for usage, to help out. 1. IATYAM - when caught 2. C&S or CNS - exclamation 3. KBs - exclamation 4. WANB or IANB - pleased with something 5. BotH - exclamation 6. WYDMTHTSOMWYHJS - offended (or for your later years) 7. IDP - multi-purpose non sequitur 8. TYPYAO - when feeling overwhelmed, in the face of adversity 9. BIEI - nasty 10. DTTTIMW - on departure 11. WWHAATWMG - hopefully 12. NMBD - cautiously From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 8 08:16:55 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:16:55 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 *_Orca_ spoiler, you are warned! * In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <121e01c68b0e$952a05c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Textev for this would be appreciated, if it exists. The only comment >about a Dragaeran being "short" that I can recall is Aliera, I think I have to retract that assertion. I'd been skimming over the arrival of Kiera at Vlad's office in _Jhereg_ and sort ran the two sentence fragments "I thought she was tall when I was eleven" into "she was still more than a head taller than I" into something like "she was a head taller than me when I was eleven". In fact, it's kind of odd how the brain works. I know clearly that Aliera is described as short, only slightly taller than an average Easterner. Despite that, in my mind's eye Aliera is generally about the same size as Morollan while Kiera is about the same size as Vlad. This probably says something about how my imagination puts Vlad and Kiera into a "compatible" category. Anyway, I was wrong. There's no reason to assume that Kiera and Sethra are significantly different in height. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Jun 8 15:33:26 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:33:26 -0500 Subject: Paarfi internet slang (clues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4488A5B6.1070709@comcast.net> I'd love to see the answers, but am devoid of clue . . . Matthew Jennings wrote: >I'm not sure anybody but Casey actually looked at these, but here are >some clues for usage, to help out. > >1. IATYAM - when caught >2. C&S or CNS - exclamation >3. KBs - exclamation >4. WANB or IANB - pleased with something >5. BotH - exclamation >6. WYDMTHTSOMWYHJS - offended (or for your later years) >7. IDP - multi-purpose non sequitur >8. TYPYAO - when feeling overwhelmed, in the face of adversity >9. BIEI - nasty >10. DTTTIMW - on departure >11. WWHAATWMG - hopefully >12. NMBD - cautiously > > > > > From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:01:12 2006 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 00:01:12 +0000 Subject: Yuck, soon to be Harry Potter's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Same reason Aliera survived a morganti weapon. As long as your soul is kept >elsewhere, you only >have to deal with the actual physical wound. And >Loraan keeps his soul "in a box" Considering that >the rumor had made it >out to the local villages, and the relatively short amount of time between > >the encounter with Blackwand and Vlad's encounter with him later, I would >saw he has been quasi >dead for quite some time. >jeff Hey there. Proceeding from the "please don't make Vlad a vampire" line of thought, Please don't make a wizard character who has his soul split into 7 pieces, one in the body, and 6 in different boxes, possibly technically named as "horcruxes" What house would Voldemort be, anyway? An Athyra? A Yendi, because of the snake affiliation? No, I think that Voldemort can only be a Jhereg with an Athyra or Dragon parent, and a Yendi on the other side. Harry-Tiassa or Phoenix, probably Tiassa. Hermione-Hawk or Athyra. Ron-(tough one)Tsalmoth. Draco-Dragon? Orca? Dumbledore-Phoenix, Athyra, Issola? Anyway, this is totally OT now :) Jon From shawnb at stanford.edu Thu Jun 8 17:34:43 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:34:43 -0700 Subject: Yuck, soon to be Harry Potter's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060609003505.D4AA34BE2B@smtp3.stanford.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of J C > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 5:01 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Yuck, soon to be Harry Potter's House > > >Same reason Aliera survived a morganti weapon. As long as > your soul is > >kept elsewhere, you only >have to deal with the actual > physical wound. > >And Loraan keeps his soul "in a box" Considering that >the > rumor had > >made it out to the local villages, and the relatively short > amount of > >time between > > >the encounter with Blackwand and Vlad's encounter with him > later, I > > >would > >saw he has been quasi >dead for quite some time. > > >jeff > > > > Hey there. > > Proceeding from the "please don't make Vlad a vampire" line > of thought, Please don't make a wizard character who has his > soul split into 7 pieces, one in the body, and 6 in different > boxes, possibly technically named as "horcruxes" > > What house would Voldemort be, anyway? An Athyra? A Yendi, > because of the snake affiliation? > > No, I think that Voldemort can only be a Jhereg with an > Athyra or Dragon parent, and a Yendi on the other side. > > Harry-Tiassa or Phoenix, probably Tiassa. > Hermione-Hawk or Athyra. > Ron-(tough one)Tsalmoth. > Draco-Dragon? Orca? > Dumbledore-Phoenix, Athyra, Issola? > > Anyway, this is totally OT now :) > > Jon > I just threw up in my mouth a little. Not that the Potter books disgust me; I like both lemon meringue pie and bratwurst (one WAY more than the other), but I just can't stomach thinking about combining them. And now that I've had THAT thought, I have to go clean up. Shawn From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 8 17:40:50 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yuck, soon to be Harry Potter's House In-Reply-To: <20060609003505.D4AA34BE2B@smtp3.stanford.edu> References: <20060609003505.D4AA34BE2B@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > [...] I like both lemon meringue pie and bratwurst (one WAY more than > the other), but I just can't stomach thinking about combining them. My wife's friends have a game or riddle, possibly without solution: name three foods or ingredients which are good combined pair-wise but not when used all together. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 8 17:56:56 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:56:56 -0700 Subject: Paarfi internet slang (clues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/8/06, Matthew Jennings wrote: > I'm not sure anybody but Casey actually looked at these, but here are > some clues for usage, to help out. > > 1. IATYAM - when caught > 2. C&S or CNS - exclamation > 3. KBs - exclamation > 4. WANB or IANB - pleased with something > 5. BotH - exclamation > 6. WYDMTHTSOMWYHJS - offended (or for your later years) > 7. IDP - multi-purpose non sequitur > 8. TYPYAO - when feeling overwhelmed, in the face of adversity > 9. BIEI - nasty > 10. DTTTIMW - on departure > 11. WWHAATWMG - hopefully > 12. NMBD - cautiously > I got 2, 4, 5, and oddly enough, 7, rather quickly, but not the rest. After staring at 6, I figured out the first part, and amazon search inside found the instance that supplied the complete phrase. But I suspect that even the speakers of those phrases would find it difficult to identify them just by their initialisms alone. From shawnb at stanford.edu Thu Jun 8 18:59:14 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:59:14 -0700 Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 5:41 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Yuck, soon to be Harry Potter's House > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > [...] I like both lemon meringue pie and bratwurst (one WAY > more than > > the other), but I just can't stomach thinking about combining them. > > My wife's friends have a game or riddle, possibly without solution: > name three foods or ingredients which are good combined > pair-wise but not when used all together. Onion rings with raspberry jam, raspberry jam with peanut butter. Raspberry jam and peanut butter with onion rings. Ew. Actually, if the game is also supposed to pair up onion rings and peanut butter, then this one fails, because I still say "ew". And for those who have never tried rasberry jam and onion rings, I would not be surprised if you said "ew" right away, but it's good pub grub. Shawn From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 8 19:18:25 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> References: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > [...] I like both lemon meringue pie and bratwurst (one WAY > > more than > > > the other), but I just can't stomach thinking about combining them. > > > > My wife's friends have a game or riddle, possibly without solution: > > name three foods or ingredients which are good combined > > pair-wise but not when used all together. > > Onion rings with raspberry jam, raspberry jam with peanut butter. > > Raspberry jam and peanut butter with onion rings. Ew. > > Actually, if the game is also supposed to pair up onion rings and peanut > butter, then this one fails, because I still say "ew". > > And for those who have never tried rasberry jam and onion rings, I would not > be surprised if you said "ew" right away, but it's good pub grub. Yes - one compares the three sets of good pairs, and the one set of bad triples. I've tried finding combinations of chilies, chocolate, citrus with eggs, milk, tomatoes that just work. I hadn't considered onion rings and jam. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jun 8 20:19:04 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:19:04 -0400 Subject: Yuck, soon to be Harry Potter's House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Harry's a Dzur. On 6/8/06, J C wrote: > > >Same reason Aliera survived a morganti weapon. As long as your soul is > kept > >elsewhere, you only >have to deal with the actual physical wound. And > >Loraan keeps his soul "in a box" Considering that >the rumor had made it > >out to the local villages, and the relatively short amount of time > between > > >the encounter with Blackwand and Vlad's encounter with him later, I > would > >saw he has been quasi >dead for quite some time. > > >jeff > > > > Hey there. > > Proceeding from the "please don't make Vlad a vampire" line of thought, > Please don't make a wizard character who has his soul split into 7 pieces, > one in the body, and 6 in different boxes, possibly technically named as > "horcruxes" > > What house would Voldemort be, anyway? An Athyra? A Yendi, because of > the > snake affiliation? > > No, I think that Voldemort can only be a Jhereg with an Athyra or Dragon > parent, and a Yendi on the other side. > > Harry-Tiassa or Phoenix, probably Tiassa. > Hermione-Hawk or Athyra. > Ron-(tough one)Tsalmoth. > Draco-Dragon? Orca? > Dumbledore-Phoenix, Athyra, Issola? > > Anyway, this is totally OT now :) > > Jon > > > From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jun 8 20:21:24 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:21:24 -0400 Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: References: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Chocolate, peanut butter, and ice cream? Or, if beverages are allowed, chocolate, peanut butter, and milk. On 6/8/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > > > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > > > [...] I like both lemon meringue pie and bratwurst (one WAY > > > more than > > > > the other), but I just can't stomach thinking about combining them. > > > > > > My wife's friends have a game or riddle, possibly without solution: > > > name three foods or ingredients which are good combined > > > pair-wise but not when used all together. > > > > Onion rings with raspberry jam, raspberry jam with peanut butter. > > > > Raspberry jam and peanut butter with onion rings. Ew. > > > > Actually, if the game is also supposed to pair up onion rings and peanut > > butter, then this one fails, because I still say "ew". > > > > And for those who have never tried rasberry jam and onion rings, I would > not > > be surprised if you said "ew" right away, but it's good pub grub. > > > > Yes - one compares the three sets of good pairs, and the one set of bad > triples. > > I've tried finding combinations of chilies, chocolate, citrus with eggs, > milk, tomatoes that just work. I hadn't considered onion rings and jam. > From books at bofh.com Thu Jun 8 20:34:07 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 20:34:07 -0700 Subject: Want your own Blackwand? In-Reply-To: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> References: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20060609033407.GA15353@bofh.com> On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 11:27:35AM -0700, Chris Olson wrote: > A friend of mine pointed me to this site. > > I look forward to seeing the various products they come up with. > > I trust Steve knows about it. (Do you?) > > http://filmswords.com/brust/brust.htm FWIW: Albion actually makes good weapons. They are not stainless steel wallhangers. (Or at least they weren't a few years ago). They generallly use stock removal, but some of their stuff is forged. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Curch, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. -- Thomas Paine From celticmadman at gmail.com Thu Jun 8 22:41:04 2006 From: celticmadman at gmail.com (Celti) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 22:41:04 -0700 Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: References: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20060608224104.55e4708e@dream.celti.lan> Chocolate, peanut butter, and ice cream go quite well together, thank you. Mmmm... homemade peanut butter ice cream with chocolate syrup. Like a frozen Reese's Cup. As for the second one, have you never had a peanut butter and chocolate syrup sandwich, with a tall, ice cold glass of milk? On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:21:24 -0400, "Louis Eastman" wrote: > Chocolate, peanut butter, and ice cream? > > Or, if beverages are allowed, chocolate, peanut butter, and milk. > > On 6/8/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Philip Hart > > > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > > > > > > > [...] I like both lemon meringue pie and bratwurst (one WAY > > > > more than > > > > > the other), but I just can't stomach thinking about combining > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > My wife's friends have a game or riddle, possibly without > > > > solution: name three foods or ingredients which are good > > > > combined pair-wise but not when used all together. > > > > > > Onion rings with raspberry jam, raspberry jam with peanut butter. > > > > > > Raspberry jam and peanut butter with onion rings. Ew. > > > > > > Actually, if the game is also supposed to pair up onion rings and > > > peanut butter, then this one fails, because I still say "ew". > > > > > > And for those who have never tried rasberry jam and onion rings, > > > I would > > not > > > be surprised if you said "ew" right away, but it's good pub grub. > > > > > > > > Yes - one compares the three sets of good pairs, and the one set of > > bad triples. > > > > I've tried finding combinations of chilies, chocolate, citrus with > > eggs, milk, tomatoes that just work. I hadn't considered onion > > rings and jam. _______________________________________________ > > From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 9 04:52:34 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 05:52:34 -0600 Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: References: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <44896102.9070309@brazee.net> I don't care for peanut butter nor jam, but the latter can be a good ingredient. Trying to find 3 foods that don't work together, although each pair does, I am drawn towards chocolate as an ingredient. Chocolate and chili makes mole which is very good. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 06:02:25 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:02:25 -0700 Subject: Paarfi internet slang (clues) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/08/06 05:56 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Paarfi internet slang (clues) >On 6/8/06, Matthew Jennings wrote: >> I'm not sure anybody but Casey actually looked at these, but here are >> some clues for usage, to help out. >> >> 1. IATYAM - when caught >> 2. C&S or CNS - exclamation >> 3. KBs - exclamation >> 4. WANB or IANB - pleased with something >> 5. BotH - exclamation >> 6. WYDMTHTSOMWYHJS - offended (or for your later years) >> 7. IDP - multi-purpose non sequitur >> 8. TYPYAO - when feeling overwhelmed, in the face of adversity >> 9. BIEI - nasty >> 10. DTTTIMW - on departure >> 11. WWHAATWMG - hopefully >> 12. NMBD - cautiously >> > >I got 2, 4, 5, and oddly enough, 7, rather quickly, but not the rest. > >After staring at 6, I figured out the first part, and amazon search >inside found the instance that supplied the complete phrase. I uncovered 1-6 pretty quickly, then got 8, but the rest have been rather more difficult to decipher. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 06:41:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:41:34 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <44896102.9070309@brazee.net> Message-ID: Has anyone noticed that the names of practically all the games played in Dragaera start with the letter "s"? Shereba. S'yang Stones. Seven-Clawed-Jhereg. Sandball. The only exceptions I've been able to find to this are two very brief references to the games "Orbs" and "Bones" (in the Afterword section of _SL_). Is there any significance to this, like the oranges in /The Godfather/, or is it just a coincidence? Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jun 9 07:32:41 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:32:41 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44898689.3070703@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Has anyone noticed that the names of practically all the games played in >Dragaera start with the letter "s"? > >Shereba. S'yang Stones. Seven-Clawed-Jhereg. Sandball. > >Is there any significance to this, like the oranges in /The Godfather/ > > > There is so if you think so (thank you, Pirandello!). Though what it could be escapes me presently. I've always wanted to see S'yang in action, from a description that it is vaguely suggestive of Go. (I've always wanted to play Tonk as well, but only if I can get One-Eye in the game & stop him from cheating (-; ) At the Go Congress each year, i usually get in a game of Tiddly Go, which involves flicking stones across the board & trying to knock your opponent's stones off the back end, among other things. This usually requires less thought than defending a moyo, you understand (-; I always imagine S'yang as something very roughly similar. Snarkhunter From spatenau at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 07:58:54 2006 From: spatenau at gmail.com (jungwolf) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:58:54 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <44898689.3070703@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <44898689.3070703@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <10644b9e0606090758k60a837b1maf3c2add0582be28@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/06, Ken Koester wrote: > I've always wanted to see S'yang in action, from a description that it > is vaguely suggestive of Go. (I've always wanted to play Tonk as well, > but only if I can get One-Eye in the game & stop him from cheating (-; > ) Tonk, sans One-Eye: http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/tonk.html Steven From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Jun 9 08:08:13 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 11:08:13 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... Message-ID: Three-copper-mud (which I've been meaning to do a Lyorn Records update for) incidentally, I've always meant to get the rules down for this but the most obvious ones make a decision by Aerich a little odd. Matt From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 08:19:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:19:43 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matthew Jennings Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/09/06 08:08 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Dragaeran games and s-words... >Three-copper-mud (which I've been meaning to do a Lyorn Records update >for) That'd be neat. I recently added a "Games" subcategory to the wiki, which is what prompted the original observation. This is game Tazendra and Aerich are playing when they first meet Khaavren, yes? I could write it up, if you're not going to have time. >incidentally, I've always meant to get the rules down for this but the >most obvious ones make a decision by Aerich a little odd. Some of the games (for example, Seven-Clawed Jhereg) have obvious parallels, others have such brief mentions that it's tough to tell. The closest approxmiations I've been able to make are: Seven-Clawed-Jhereg = Texas Hold 'em Shereba = Poker? Bridge? Orbs = Hearts? Bones = Clubs? Spades? Sandball = Rugby? Soccer? Handball? Baseball? Three-Penny-Mud = Seems to be a variant of craps, or some other dice-game. But Dragaerans don't seem to use dice at all. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 09:22:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:22:32 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While researching coin-flipping games for "Three-Penny-Mud" equivilents, I stumbled across this site: http://mathdemos.gcsu.edu/mathdemos/cointoss/cointoss.html and suddenly the game of S'yang stones became much clearer to me. I wonder if Steve's ever considered putting together a pamphlet of rules to Dragaeran games? Might make for good convention fodder. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 09:47:04 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:47:04 -0400 Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: <44896102.9070309@brazee.net> References: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> <44896102.9070309@brazee.net> Message-ID: I thought the purpose was to find 3 foods that did fit together...so I put forward the previous mentioned foods. I am a sucker for Reese's products. So tasty... On 6/9/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > > I don't care for peanut butter nor jam, but the latter can be a good > ingredient. > > Trying to find 3 foods that don't work together, although each pair > does, I am drawn towards chocolate as an ingredient. Chocolate and > chili makes mole which is very good. > From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 09:54:34 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:54:34 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sandball sounded a lot like volleyball to me. On 6/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > While researching coin-flipping games for "Three-Penny-Mud" equivilents, I > stumbled across this site: > > http://mathdemos.gcsu.edu/mathdemos/cointoss/cointoss.html > > and suddenly the game of S'yang stones became much clearer to me. > > I wonder if Steve's ever considered putting together a pamphlet of rules > to Dragaeran games? > > Might make for good convention fodder. > > Majikjon > > From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jun 9 10:12:58 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:12:58 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4489AC1A.4080509@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Some of the games (for example, Seven-Clawed Jhereg) have obvious >parallels, others have such brief mentions that it's tough to tell. > >The closest approxmiations I've been able to make are: > >Seven-Clawed-Jhereg = Texas Hold 'em > > Have to admit, I don't remember this one. But the name sounds much more like Seven Card Stud. . . . Snarkhunter From steve at romlin.com Fri Jun 9 10:18:28 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 19:18:28 +0200 Subject: Just got back from Fenario, er, Hungary? Message-ID: Being in Europe means I'm really far away from most of you guys and I can't hop over to see Steven Brust's latest appearance at a Con. But it also means I can go to Budapest real cheap. So I did. I'm happy to report that the Easterners truly do come in many body shapes, their males sometimes do have hair on their faces, and the eldest of them seem to be less than 100 years old, and yet looked in the region of 3000. They were friendly though, and their palinka was very good. -- \Steve From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 10:22:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:22:15 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <4489AC1A.4080509@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/09/06 10:12 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Seven-Clawed-Jhereg = Texas Hold 'em >> >> > >Have to admit, I don't remember this one. But the name sounds much more >like Seven Card Stud. . . . Its rules are described, almost precisely, in the Afterword section of _SL_. This is probably the only game that is already described well enough that it could be played. Even the terminology has parallels: The Flop becomes "The Fall" Fourth Street becomes "The Four Ways" The River becomes "The River of Dreams" Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 10:38:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:38:17 -0700 Subject: Just got back from Fenario, er, Hungary? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Steve Rapaport" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/09/06 10:18 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Just got back from Fenario, er, Hungary? >Being in Europe means I'm really far away from most of you guys and I can't >hop over to see Steven Brust's latest appearance at a Con. > >But it also means I can go to Budapest real cheap. So I did. > >I'm happy to report that the Easterners truly do come in many body shapes, >their males sometimes do have hair on their faces, and the eldest of them >seem to be less than 100 years old, and yet looked in the region of 3000. > >They were friendly though, and their palinka was very good. I just hope you knew enough not to call it "wine". ;-) Majikjon From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jun 9 11:13:56 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:13:56 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4489BA64.1040407@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >Its rules are described, almost precisely, in the Afterword section of >_SL_. > >This is probably the only game that is already described well enough that >it could be played. > >Even the terminology has parallels: > >The Flop becomes "The Fall" >Fourth Street becomes "The Four Ways" >The River becomes "The River of Dreams" > > There you have it, almost time for a re-read. . . but prob'ly not until after sailing season (-: Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 11:40:36 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:40:36 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <4489BA64.1040407@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/09/06 11:13 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Its rules are described, almost precisely, in the Afterword section of >>_SL_. >> >>This is probably the only game that is already described well enough that >>it could be played. >> >>Even the terminology has parallels: >> >>The Flop becomes "The Fall" >>Fourth Street becomes "The Four Ways" >>The River becomes "The River of Dreams" >> > >There you have it, almost time for a re-read. . . but prob'ly not until >after sailing season (-: Someone ought to point out to SKZB that if he *did* write a rules booklet for the Dragaera games, it would give him an excuse to have a "Seven-Clawed-Jhereg" tournament at conventions... ;-) Majikjon From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 9 12:54:51 2006 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:54:51 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4489D20B.8020701@earthlink.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Someone ought to point out to SKZB that if he *did* write a rules booklet > for the Dragaera games, it would give him an excuse to have a > "Seven-Clawed-Jhereg" tournament at conventions... > My girlfriend was reading the thread over my shoulder and wondered if there is a game called Bra-Moor Hi/Lo. She's an Aerich fan. Jose -- Jose Marquez | There are 10 types of people in jhereg69 at earthlink.net | the world: those who understand http://www.hackwater.com | binary, and those who don't. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 9 13:20:46 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:20:46 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <4489D20B.8020701@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/09/06 12:54 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Someone ought to point out to SKZB that if he *did* write a rules booklet >> for the Dragaera games, it would give him an excuse to have a >> "Seven-Clawed-Jhereg" tournament at conventions... >> >My girlfriend was reading the thread over my shoulder and wondered if >there is a game called Bra-Moor Hi/Lo. She's an Aerich fan. If there isn't already, then there should be. Majikjon -Wondering if Iorich Guards sit around playing "hangman" when off duty... From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 14:15:59 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:15:59 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: <4489D20B.8020701@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I would expect the Iorich share a love of clue with the Yendi. On 6/9/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > Jose Marquez > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/09/06 12:54 PM > > To > Dragaera > cc > > Subject > Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... > > > > > >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Someone ought to point out to SKZB that if he *did* write a rules > booklet > >> for the Dragaera games, it would give him an excuse to have a > >> "Seven-Clawed-Jhereg" tournament at conventions... > >> > >My girlfriend was reading the thread over my shoulder and wondered if > >there is a game called Bra-Moor Hi/Lo. She's an Aerich fan. > > If there isn't already, then there should be. > > Majikjon > > -Wondering if Iorich Guards sit around playing "hangman" when off duty... > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 10 10:19:14 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:19:14 -0700 Subject: Just got back from Fenario, er, Hungary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <448AFF12.50107@dreamcafe.com> Steve Rapaport wrote: > Being in Europe means I'm really far away from most of you guys and I > can't > hop over to see Steven Brust's latest appearance at a Con. > > But it also means I can go to Budapest real cheap. So I did. > **envy** From chica at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 10 17:31:39 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:31:39 -0700 Subject: A particular Dragaeran game In-Reply-To: <20060610170009.BEB0FE94F1@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060610170009.BEB0FE94F1@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <448B646B.1050805@dreamcafe.com> dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:40:36 -0700 > From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > Subject: Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... > > To: Ken Koester > > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > >> >>Its rules are described, almost precisely, in the Afterword section of _SL_. > >> >> > >> >>This is probably the only game that is already described well enough that it could be played. > > Someone ought to point out to SKZB that if he *did* write a rules > booklet for the Dragaera games, it would give him an excuse to have a > "Seven-Clawed-Jhereg" tournament at conventions... > > ;-) > > Majikjon Except that Steve doesn't play tournaments. Therein lies the flaw in the plan as outlined. Perhaps you already knew that, though, Majikjon, what with the wink. *--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From pulmon at mac.com Sat Jun 10 19:01:24 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:01:24 -0400 Subject: Food pairings In-Reply-To: <44896102.9070309@brazee.net> References: <20060609015923.94E864CBB5@smtp3.stanford.edu> <44896102.9070309@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2006, at 7:52 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > I don't care for peanut butter nor jam, but the latter can be a > good ingredient. > > Trying to find 3 foods that don't work together, although each pair > does, I am drawn towards chocolate as an ingredient. Chocolate > and chili makes mole which is very good. > listinfo/dragaera consider sauerkraut From attjen at gwu.edu Mon Jun 12 06:45:05 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:45:05 -0400 Subject: Paarfi internest slang (answers) Message-ID: Here they are: 1. IATYAM 2. C&S or CNS 3. KBs 4. WANB or IANB 5. BotH 6. WYDMTHTSOMWYHJS 7. IDP 8. TYPYAO 9. BIEI 10. DTTTIMW 11. WWHAATWMG 12. NMBD 1. I Almost Think You Accuse Me 2. Cracks and Shards! 3. Kieron's Boots! 4. We Ask Nothing Better or I Ask Nothing Better 5. Blood of the Horse! 6. Would You Do Me The Honor To Say Once More What You Have Just Said? 7. I don't paint. 8. Therefore, you perceive, you are outnumbered. 9. Because I Enjoyed It 10. Don't Tell Them That I Meant Well 11. We Will Have Adventures, And Then We'll Meet Girls (or Guys) 12. Now Matters Become Difficult David rightly pointed out that I missed those like "I nearly think that..." or "Shards! I believe I have been asking nothing else for this past hour!". I actually thought the last 6 were much easier than some of the others. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 12 06:51:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 06:51:09 -0700 Subject: Paarfi internest slang (answers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matthew Jennings Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/12/06 06:45 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Paarfi internest slang (answers) >David rightly pointed out that I missed those like "I nearly think >that..." or "Shards! I believe I have been asking nothing else for this >past hour!". > >I actually thought the last 6 were much easier than some of the others. Oh, I see... You didn't stick to /TPG/ (as I note some of those quotes are from /FHYA/ and /VoA/) as the lead-in from your first message had led me to believe. (There I go again, making incorrect assumptions about things...) That explains why I didn't get most of the last six... I wasn't even looking in the right book. Tricky, tricky... ;-) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 12 08:53:53 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:53:53 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Louis Eastman" 06/09/06 02:15 PM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc "Jose Marquez" , Dragaera Subject Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... > I would expect the Iorich share a love of clue with the Yendi. So I suppose Dragons love Risk, Chreotha love "Mousetrap", Orca are big on Monopoly, and Athyra prefer "Operation"? What would a Dzur play, I wonder? Rock-em Soc-em Robots? Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jun 12 09:02:00 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:02:00 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c68e39$8c2569a0$3c01a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Jon writ: > What would a Dzur play, I wonder? Rock-em Soc-em Robots? Trouble of course. They're forever getting into it. :) From casey at the-bat.net Mon Jun 12 09:03:51 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:03:51 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... Message-ID: <000201c68e39$cddc3a40$3c01a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Jon wrote: > So I suppose Dragons love Risk, Chreotha love "Mousetrap", > Orca are big on Monopoly, and Athyra prefer "Operation"? > > What would a Dzur play, I wonder? Rock-em Soc-em Robots? Oh, and there's always the classic Teckla favorite, Sorry. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jun 12 13:25:55 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:25:55 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> > I would expect the Iorich share a love of clue with the Yendi. I imagine your average Yendi would prefer Diplomacy to Clue. I've never really been clear on whether the Iorich are more into prosecution or investigation. Most references to them seem to put them in the position of judges and/or lawyers more than anything else. They represent The Law in the same way that the lyorn represent Tradition and Honor. The actual investigations might be better placed into the hands of a Tiassa. Yeah, I'm over-thinking a "for fun" topic. Sue me. :-P I'd pick a "simple mechanics, deep strategy" game for the Iorich. Yendi - Diplomacy Iorich - Go Tiassa - Clue (since I picked them for this sort of work and for lack of a better choice of a well known game that involves "cleverness") Jhereg - Kill Doctor Lucky. :-P If you're not familiar with the last game listed, I recommend that you make the acquaintance of Cheapass Games (http://www.cheapass.com) and acquire a copy. The basic concept is Clue turned inside out. You're not solving the murder; you're attempting to commit it undetected, while preventing your opponents from committing it first. It's inexpensive and great fun. ;-) From books at bofh.com Mon Jun 12 14:09:57 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:09:57 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060612210957.GA29241@bofh.com> On Mon, Jun 12, 2006 at 01:25:55PM -0700, Scott Schultz wrote: > I've never really been clear on whether the Iorich are more into prosecution > or investigation. Most references to them seem to put them in the position > of judges and/or lawyers more than anything else. They represent The Law in > the same way that the lyorn represent Tradition and Honor. The actual > investigations might be better placed into the hands of a Tiassa. I always pictured them playing 'Guilltoine'. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/116 -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'" - Dave Barry From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 12 14:15:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:15:09 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <20060612210957.GA29241@bofh.com> Message-ID: Jot Powers Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/12/06 02:09 PM Please respond to Jot Powers To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... >On Mon, Jun 12, 2006 at 01:25:55PM -0700, Scott Schultz wrote: >> I've never really been clear on whether the Iorich are more into prosecution >> or investigation. Most references to them seem to put them in the position >> of judges and/or lawyers more than anything else. They represent The Law in >> the same way that the lyorn represent Tradition and Honor. The actual >> investigations might be better placed into the hands of a Tiassa. > >I always pictured them playing 'Guilltoine'. > >http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/116 Of course, all Dragaerans would probably like this one: http://www.funagain.com/control/product/~product_id=015177 This one could probably be adapted to a Dragaera version quite easily, come to think of it... Majikjon From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Jun 12 14:53:19 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:53:19 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060612175244.025fd270@cox.net> At 04:25 PM 6/12/2006, Scott Schultz wrote: >Yendi - Diplomacy >Iorich - Go >Tiassa - Clue (since I picked them for this sort of work and for lack of a >better choice of a well known game that involves "cleverness") >Jhereg - Kill Doctor Lucky. :-P Orca, of course, play Monopoly. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jun 12 20:50:48 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 20:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gaming stuff (was RE: Two words about two letters) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > 4. Oaths - touching that Piro has adopted "Cha!". Rather chilling that > > the Musketeers (except Aerich?) use "Star me", hearkening back to the > > nearly-abrupt conclusion of PG. I found "The Trey", presumably appearing > > to complement Verra's sisters, rather jarring. > > Somehow, I saw no connection to the three goddesses in that interjection. I > read it as similar to "The Deuce!" an oath exclaiming bad luck (perhaps > related to dice throwing? - snake eyes?) perhaps with some similar > connection to a game of chance. There was one instance in the text that > Deuce was used perhaps inadvertently instead of Trey. I think Mark Mandel > noted it and thought that this might explain the apparent copy editing error > that there are one or two instances where Trey is not capitalized. Maybe the above is relevant to some recent discussion. Amusingly, "the deuce" is a euphemism for "the devil" - maybe "the trey" is a similar euphemism. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jun 13 04:33:07 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:33:07 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <448EA273.9000807@email.ers.usda.gov> Scott Schultz wrote: >Iorich - Go > > I don't think so; from my nidan perspective, Go is more for Hawk or Issola or perhaps Athyra. Of course, Issola would only be able to play honte, never hamete (-; Snarkhunter From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 13 08:21:51 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Games Message-ID: <20060613152151.29097.qmail@web52612.mail.yahoo.com> Dragons would play Risk. Or chess, but everyone would play chess. I think Risk, as a 'fun-n-games' board game (as compared to the 'deep thought' game that chess and go are), would be the Dragon's meat... Vallista would play 'Mousetrap'. :> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 08:27:57 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:27:57 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <448EA273.9000807@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <448EA273.9000807@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, Ken Koester wrote: > Scott Schultz wrote: > > >Iorich - Go > > > > > I don't think so; from my nidan perspective, Go is more for Hawk or > Issola or perhaps Athyra. Of course, Issola would only be able to play > honte, never hamete (-; > (After looking those terms up, since I cannot pretend to know anything about Go) I believe you have fallen victim to one of the classic blunders with regards to Issola. An Issola who has learned the game throroughly will no doubt play honte, right up until the point where it is appropriate to play hamete. And will then surprise you. "Teldra," I said admonishingly. "Was that polite?" "lt was," she explained, "appropriate." From mneme at io.com Tue Jun 13 08:34:41 2006 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:34:41 -0500 Subject: Games In-Reply-To: <20060613152151.29097.qmail@web52612.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060613152151.29097.qmail@web52612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17550.56081.955241.33306@fnord.io.com> Felix Eisen writes: >Dragons would play Risk. Or chess, but everyone would play chess. I >think Risk, as a 'fun-n-games' board game (as compared to the 'deep >thought' game that chess and go are), would be the Dragon's meat... Those who underestimate the dragons generally do not get ahead. (or rather, are not unlikely to lose theirs). Dragons would play chess, or go, and excell at them, or play more realistic deep tactical simulations. > Vallista would play 'Mousetrap'. :> Core wars (well, if it were available). Or robot wars, or even ccgs--the "build a better foo" and have it battle soemone else's foo would probably appeal. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^-- "Did you know, if you increment enough, you /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ get an extra digit?" "I knew," weeps Six. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\ "We knew. But we had forgotten." '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 08:47:18 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:47:18 -0700 Subject: Games In-Reply-To: <20060613152151.29097.qmail@web52612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 08:21 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Games >Dragons would play Risk. Or chess, but everyone would play chess. I think Risk, as a 'fun-n-games' board game (as compared to the 'deep >thought' game that chess and go are), would be the Dragon's meat... > > Vallista would play 'Mousetrap'. :> I always figured Vallista would be more interested in "Jenga". "Mousetrap" seems more like a Chreotha game, to me. Tsalmoth would probably like "Life", the gods would probably play the "Wheel of Fortune" home game, and Jhegaala, of course, can never decide. Majikjon From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 13 08:48:28 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode Message-ID: <20060613154828.19205.qmail@web52614.mail.yahoo.com> Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out there): 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Okay, there. Sethra Lavode can: Eat food. Breathe (still necessary for talking out loud). Walk, etc. Not saying she -has- to, but she -can-. She's vampiric undead; she says so. So. While we know that she DOES have cold hands, Sethra-as-Kiera does not have a sub-normal body temperature; we know, however, that she takes a great amount of care in keeping Kiera as separate and individual as she can. I believe that among these individual aspects is the necessary altering of Kiera's -apparent- body temperature. Whether this is a matter of blood-flow control (cold feet/hands in us Easterners are the result of a lack of full blood flow) or a matter of a spell -- something I doubt, since it'd show up like a spotlight on an individual we know isn't one to make a show of herself -- it is clearly something that Sethra -does- do. Sethra, as herself, has no need of such rigid self-control; she is Sethra, and the Empire simply has to accept her as she is. Can she shapechange? Possibly; probably, even. I think that, in the centuries she's used Kiera, she's become skilled enough in more ordinary vehicles of disguise (posture, mannerisms, and grooming) so that those very few who have the chance to see both (regal, powerful, undead Dzur) Sethra and (warm, friendly, thieving Jhereg) Kiera simply have a problem thinking of one as being the other -- even potentially. Consider that Vlad is, possibly, one of the five most familiar with Kiera the Thief; sure, others (like Stony) have good, long working relationships with her, but Vlad was in many ways her protege'; she taught him a -lot-. How to move through crowds, how to palm stuff, a lot of the small tricks of the thief's trade. He's known her for something like 20 years, which for an Easterner is very, very long. While he's known Sethra Lavode somewhat less -- for about four years at the time of Jhereg (IIRC), which by the time of Orca is six to seven -- he has still had regular social interaction with her, from the permanent party at Castle Black to more in-depth interactions, planning sessions and the like. Of the others who have known Sethra, the only one I can think of who might (apparently) have the chance to connect her with Kiera the thief is, interestingly enough, Aliera. In Jhereg, Vlad expresses trepidation at seeing the two of them meet, then is surprised when they turn out already to be friends. This may indicate that Aliera, at least, has already put it together -- but it may not. After all, Aliera would never actively take part in such an in-depth chicanery as the events of Orca, and thus never really have -reason- to catch Kiera out on stuff that only Sethra would know -- like Vlad did. Sethra also admits to Vlad that nobody's really gotten to work with her as closely as he has, so ... I guess they all need to work on their disguises, eh? However, for the purposes of Kiera, it's pretty clear that Sethra already knows a hell of a lot more than anybody else. S. Thomas Crain Author-in-Training __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jun 13 08:48:51 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:48:51 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: References: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <448EA273.9000807@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <448EDE63.1090603@email.ers.usda.gov> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/13/06, Ken Koester wrote: > > > I believe you have fallen victim to one of the classic blunders with > regards to Issola. > > An Issola who has learned the game throroughly will no doubt play > honte, right up until the point where it is appropriate to play > hamete. And will then surprise you. > I think not. It is *never* appropriate to play hamete; a correct response always leaves one worse off. One would have to assume one's opponent a fool, and that seems a most unlikely assumption for an Issola. Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 08:58:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:58:08 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <448EDE63.1090603@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 08:48 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Dragaeran games and s-words... >Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> On 6/13/06, Ken Koester wrote: >> >> >> I believe you have fallen victim to one of the classic blunders with >> regards to Issola. >> >> An Issola who has learned the game throroughly will no doubt play >> honte, right up until the point where it is appropriate to play >> hamete. And will then surprise you. >> >I think not. It is *never* appropriate to play hamete; a correct >response always leaves one worse off. One would have to assume one's >opponent a fool, and that seems a most unlikely assumption for an Issola. It may be appropriate for an Issola to behave as if he believes his opponent is a fool, even (perhaps especially) if that isn't what he really thinks. And it may be appropriate to play the game poorly, lest his arms be ripped from their sockets by an angry Dzur. Majikjon -I suggest a new strategy--let the Dzurlord win! From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 13 09:08:04 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:08:04 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <448EA273.9000807@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <113c01c68f03$8e07af60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I don't think so; from my nidan perspective, Go is more for Hawk or >Issola or perhaps Athyra. Of course, Issola would only be able to play >honte, never hamete (-; I really wanted Chess for the Iorich, but as someone else points out later, everyone would play chess. I also wanted something less obviously military-themed. However, I'm willing to give Go to the Athyra. From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 13 09:12:15 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead Message-ID: <20060613161215.8628.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> I don't think I need spoiler space on this one, but... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 The individuals we know of who've a) gotten stuck with a Morganti weapon and b) 'survived' are, from what I can remember, only two: Loraan and Aliera. Aliera, of course, has her soul linked to Pathfinder, a Great Weapon, which defended her by taking her soul into itself. Loraan ... well, see, that's the question, isn't it. I think what everyone's forgetting is a single six-letter word, and what it means in Dragaera: wizard. A wizard is someone who takes sorcery, wizardry, and whatever other mystic magical '-y' words there are in Dragaera (yeah, so I forget) and twists them all together. Oh, and in so doing he also creates a staff in which he keeps his soul. So why's this important? Well, a Morganti weapon cannot destroy a soul if it isn't there; you can't destroy the soul of someone who's already dead, for example. The soul, according to the explanation of revivification, hangs around for about 3 days before moving on, but it isn't -in- the body, and thus subject to destruction via Morganti. Loraan's soul at the time of his 'first' death by, apparently, Blackwand, was in his staff -- not in his body. While clearly he was still alive, the mystic details (or 'engineering', as the Necromancer would put it) of being a wizard preserves his soul from being destroyed. As a side thought: this may have been the entire reason wizards came to be -- some paranoid Athyra hated Morganti weapons and figured out a way to defend his soul from them. Voila', wizards. Loraan-the-Dead, however, WAS destroyed by a Morganti weapon, as wielded by Savn; clearly the undead can be so destroyed. It is a theory of mine that after they get sent down Deathsgate Falls, undead can only return -as- a soul, i.e. the 'corpse' they reanimate is more akin to a construct (if at all), since after all those sent over the Falls 'wake up' at the foot of the Falls (apparently creating a form there), take what they can use off their own corpse, and head into the Paths -- leaving their original body behind. Doesn't mean they don't go back after getting permission to become undead and reanimate their own corpse, but that somehow doesn't seem likely. Essentially, the logic chain is such: if you can only return (as a rule, with only four violations that we know of) from the Paths as an Undead, and even undead wizards can be slain by Morganti weapons (after having successfully defended themselves against such destruction previously), therefore for some reason undead wizards cannot put their souls back into staffs, which would prevent them from being destroyed. (Which, since it clearly happened, can't be done. ... you know what I mean.) Anyhow. Regarding those emerging from the Paths: Zerika IV: a special case, the last Phoenix, had to bring back the Orb, yadda yadda. Vlad Taltos: Easterner, didn't belong there, one escape only, next time you'll have to stay. (Your familiar shares your fate, of course.) Aliera e'Kieron: a 'special case', given the ability to leave the Paths by her mom, the goddess Verra. Morollan e'Drien: wasn't supposed to leave. Apparently infused with the blood of a goddess, which permitted him to escape as a real living guy. To our knowledge, no other has been 'allowed' to escape as a living individual from the Paths of the Dead; even Sethra Lavode had to come back as undead. S. Thomas Crain Author-in-Training __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 09:16:16 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:16:16 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran games and s-words... In-Reply-To: <448EDE63.1090603@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <00d601c68e5e$68c81190$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <448EA273.9000807@email.ers.usda.gov> <448EDE63.1090603@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, Ken Koester wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > On 6/13/06, Ken Koester wrote: > > > > > > I believe you have fallen victim to one of the classic blunders with > > regards to Issola. > > > > An Issola who has learned the game throroughly will no doubt play > > honte, right up until the point where it is appropriate to play > > hamete. And will then surprise you. > > > I think not. It is *never* appropriate to play hamete; a correct > response always leaves one worse off. One would have to assume one's > opponent a fool, and that seems a most unlikely assumption for an Issola. > I acknowledge that I may have misunderstood this page: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Hamete However, it makes it look like hamete is something which can be subtle and misdirecting, and is therefore an occasionally useful strategy. It's probably more appropriate to a Yendi, I would guess. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 09:18:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:18:43 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <20060613154828.19205.qmail@web52614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 08:48 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Sethra Lavode Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out there): 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 > Okay, there. > > Sethra Lavode can: > > Eat food. > Breathe (still necessary for talking out loud). > Walk, etc. > > Not saying she -has- to, but she -can-. She's vampiric undead; she says so. So. While "breathing" implies respiration, which is not in itself necessary for speech, I'll accept this term as close enough. > While we know that she DOES have cold hands, Sethra-as-Kiera does not have a sub-normal body temperature; we know, however, that she >takes a great amount of care in keeping Kiera as separate and individual as she can. I believe that among these individual aspects is the >necessary altering of Kiera's -apparent- body temperature. Whether this is a matter of blood-flow control (cold feet/hands in us Easterners >are the result of a lack of full blood flow) or a matter of a spell -- something I doubt, since it'd show up like a spotlight on an >individual we know isn't one to make a show of herself -- it is clearly something that Sethra -does- do. How much is truth, and how much is illusion? Is Sethra actually making her hands warm, or just making them *seem* warm? > Sethra, as herself, has no need of such rigid self-control; she is Sethra, and the Empire simply has to accept her as she is. > > Can she shapechange? Possibly; probably, even. I think that, in the centuries she's used Kiera, she's become skilled enough in more >ordinary vehicles of disguise (posture, mannerisms, and grooming) so that those very few who have the chance to see both (regal, powerful, >undead Dzur) Sethra and (warm, friendly, thieving Jhereg) Kiera simply have a problem thinking of one as being the other -- even >potentially. Sethra is noted by Vlad to be "Tall for a Dragaeran", and Kiera is noted to be "small Dragaeran female form" (/Jhereg/, ch 4.) So there is apparently some significant difference in their heights. I find it hard to see how this could really be accomplished without invoking some aspect of shape-changing ability... Unless she simply keeps Kiera's body in a cooler somewhere in Dzur Mountain, and "inhabits" it when needed. Since reading /Orca/ I've been very curious how Sethra was apparently able to leave Dzur Mountain as Kiera during the events of /Taltos/ while Sethra herself was "unable to leave Dzur Mountain at this time" (where it is implied she's about to do battle with a Jenoine). Is this perhaps a crack? Or possible due to the way in which Kiera manifests? > Sethra also admits to Vlad that nobody's really gotten to work with her as closely as he has, so ... I guess they all need to work on >their disguises, eh? Kiera tells Vlad not only that very few people have known both of her personae well enough to make any kind of connection, but also that so far as she knows, he's the only one to have figured it out. Aliera may just be keeping her mouth shut, but it always seemed to me that Sethra and Aliera were never as close as Sethra and Vlad or Sethra and Morrolan. > However, for the purposes of Kiera, it's pretty clear that Sethra already knows a hell of a lot more than anybody else. Re-reading Jhereg recently, I was amused by the scene where Vlad tells Sethra about Mellar (after having told Kiera about it already) and him wondering "How did Sethra find out so much about this?" It's amusing the things you pick up when reviewing these books. SKZB was dangling the secret in front of our faces at every opportunity from the very beginning. Ah, hindsight. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 09:27:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:27:43 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <20060613161215.8628.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 09:12 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead > Regarding those emerging from the Paths: > > Zerika IV: a special case, the last Phoenix, had to bring back the Orb, yadda yadda. > Vlad Taltos: Easterner, didn't belong there, one escape only, next time you'll have to stay. (Your familiar shares your fate, of course.) > Aliera e'Kieron: a 'special case', given the ability to leave the Paths by her mom, the goddess Verra. > Morollan e'Drien: wasn't supposed to leave. Apparently infused with the blood of a goddess, which permitted him to escape as a real > living guy. > > To our knowledge, no other has been 'allowed' to escape as a living individual from the Paths of the Dead; even Sethra Lavode had to come >back as undead. Not one of these people has really been "allowed" to leave by the gods. Each one of them had a reason why the Paths could not hold them in. I contend that no intervention by the gods was made to "allow" them out in any of these cases. Vlad&Loiosh: Are not Dragaerans, hence their blood was not Dragaeran, therefore not bound (or bindable) by the Paths. Zerika: Had the Orb. Which "Has some power, even here" according to Verra in /Taltos/. Lets her leave alive, despite her Dragaeran blood. Aliera: Her mother is a goddess, hence her blood is half-goddess. The Paths cannot hold her. Morrolan: Trickery with blood transfusion on Vlad's part gives Morrolan the same immunity that Aliera enjoys naturally. The only one of these that had full Dragaeran blood when she left was Zerika, and she had the Orb (and through it, all the power of the Greater Sea of Chaos) helping her. If this does not actually make her a goddess, it comes as close as a normal mortal can, methinks. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Tue Jun 13 09:34:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:34:57 -0600 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <448EE931.2090307@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Felix Eisen >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >06/13/06 08:48 AM > >To >dragaera at dragaera.info >cc > >Subject >Sethra Lavode > > > > > > >Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out >there): > > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > > Unless she simply keeps Kiera's body in a cooler >somewhere in Dzur Mountain, and "inhabits" it when needed. > > > ... >Since reading /Orca/ I've been very curious how Sethra was apparently able >to leave Dzur Mountain as Kiera during the events of /Taltos/ while Sethra >herself was "unable to leave Dzur Mountain at this time" (where it is >implied she's about to do battle with a Jenoine). Is this perhaps a crack? >Or possible due to the way in which Kiera manifests? > > Looking at those two paragraphs together, it may be that Kiera has a serious function in being Sethra's home away from home. Maybe Sethra couldn't leave Dzur Mountain, but Kiera was already in storage somewhere far away. Sethra goes to sleep, and Kiera wakes up. That would be a useful thing for a Wizard to be able to do. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 13 09:42:02 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:42:02 -0700 Subject: The Nature of the Issola (Was RE: Dragaeran games and s-words...) In-Reply-To: <448EDE63.1090603@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <113d01c68f08$4cb2bb90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >> An Issola who has learned the game throroughly will no doubt play >> honte, right up until the point where it is appropriate to play >> hamete. And will then surprise you. > >I think not. It is *never* appropriate to play hamete; a correct >response always leaves one worse off. One would have to assume one's >opponent a fool, and that seems a most unlikely assumption for an Issola. I don't think it would be assuming one's opponent a fool. Rather, it would be taking advantage of the opponent's assumptions that the Issola in question is exactly what he appears to be. The thing to remember about the Issola is that they'll be unflaggingly polite and disingenuous, right up to the point where they kill you. "Issola strikes from courtly bow" is, I think, more than just a literary allusion to a stork-like bird. I'd guess that an Issola can be as ruthless and sneaky as a Jhereg when it's "appropriate". A Dragon playing against a Yendi would expect hamete play; perhaps even become suspicious if the Yendi was NOT playing that way. Against an Issola, he'd be much more likely to fall prey to his assumptions that all Issola are courtiers and seneschals rather than strategists and tacticians. The point of hamete, if I understand it correctly, is to appear to be making a mistake while actually laying a trap for the opponent. The Issola wouldn't have to believe his opponent a "fool"; just gullible or "bigoted" in the sense of being stuck on a stereotype and therefore unable or unwilling to entertain the notion that his opponent might actually be a talented strategist. I shouldn't be at all surprised to learn that most handovers of the Orb to House Issola occur as a result of a bold political strike or outright assassination. Yes, the Orb supposedly doesn't brook assassination but Dragaeran history (as related by Paarfi) shows that the Orb has changed hands many times under questionable circumstances, where it's unwillingness to protect the Emperor was taken as the sign that the Cycle had turned. While the Issola we've been introduced to have all seemed to be genuinely nice and pleasant people, I think it's reasonably clear that the average Issola retainer wears his congeniality as a mask, much like a Yendi wears whatever personality he's decided is fashionable today. Issola are the ultimate passive-aggressive opponent, and the most deadly since they're the ones you're least likely to suspect of betrayal unless you happen to be savvy enough to see them for what they are instead of what they represent themselves to be. The fact that many, maybe most, Issola ARE what they appear to be simply makes it that much more difficult, and therefore deadly, when the truly dangerous members of the House get down to the business of eliminating you from the game. From howard at brazee.net Tue Jun 13 10:19:51 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:19:51 -0600 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead Message-ID: <448EF3B7.3000306@brazee.net> On 10:27 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Not one of these people has really been "allowed" to leave by the > gods. > Each one of them had a reason why the Paths could not hold them in. > I contend that no intervention by the gods was made to "allow" them > out in any of these cases. So you think that vial of blood was taken without the gods' approval? If the gods can say that Vlad can leave only once, we have to wonder what will stop him from leaving a second time - unless the gods "allowed" him to leave the first time. >The only one of these that had full Dragaeran blood when she left was >Zerika, and she had the Orb (and through it, all the power of the Greater >Sea of Chaos) helping her. If this does not actually make her a goddess, >it comes as close as a normal mortal can, methinks. > Which even supports the gods allowed her to leave. The only part of this argument that I don't get is why there is one category for all these different reasons, and another category for Sethra. As far as I know, Sethra is also unique. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Tue Jun 13 10:32:37 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:32:37 -0400 Subject: The Nature of the Issola (Was RE: Dragaeran games and s-words...) In-Reply-To: <113d01c68f08$4cb2bb90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <113d01c68f08$4cb2bb90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <448EF6B5.6040409@email.ers.usda.gov> Scott Schultz wrote: >A Dragon playing against a Yendi would expect hamete play; perhaps even >become suspicious if the Yendi was NOT playing that way. Against an Issola, >he'd be much more likely to fall prey to his assumptions that all Issola are >courtiers and seneschals rather than strategists and tacticians. The point >of hamete, if I understand it correctly, is to appear to be making a mistake >while actually laying a trap for the opponent. > Not quite. While involving a trap, hamete is always incorrect play--always refutable--always a mistaken move. There's an element of bullying about it, too. An Issola might be many things, but surely never incorrect or a bully (-: A yendi might play hamete, but would probably bait even more subtle traps, and take care not to be worse off if the opponent played the proper counter. In fact, simply playing a game--win or lose--could well be a move in a larger game to a Yendi, I imagine. Go might appeal to Orca; one speaks in terms of profit and loss and efficiency, after all. I can't quite see it, but it's not out of the question. Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 10:35:47 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:35:47 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <448EF3B7.3000306@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 10:19 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >On 10:27 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> I contend that no intervention by the gods was made to "allow" them >> out in any of these cases. > >So you think that vial of blood was taken without the gods' approval? > >If the gods can say that Vlad can leave only once, we have to wonder >what will stop him from leaving a second time - unless the gods >"allowed" him to leave the first time. Well, let me backstep a bit here. Obviously, the gods *could* have prevented any of them from leaving if they wanted to. So to that extent, yes, the gods did "allow" them to leave. But having the consent of the gods to depart was not, itself, sufficient to allow them to leave. Each of them also had to have those attributes that prevented the very nature of the Paths from sapping their life energy as they departed. In the cases of Zerika, Aliera and Vlad, the gods knew that they would be able to depart. In the case of Morrolan, they did *not* know, and may have even tried to prevent his departure if they'd known what Vlad was going to do. In Orca, we learn that even Verra didn't know why she gave the vial to Kiera. Just that it was important that she do so. >The only part of this argument that I don't get is why there is one >category for all these different reasons, and another category for >Sethra. As far as I know, Sethra is also unique. Sethra is full Dragaeran blood. And while Iceflame may be as powerful as the Orb in Dragaera proper, it may not have the same abilities within the Paths of the Dead. Hence, the blood restriction may well have prevented her from leaving "alive". Forcing Sethra to become undead may also have simply been the gods way to punish her for declining their offer of godhood. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jun 13 10:39:41 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > In Orca, we learn that [...] Well, we're told it. Remember, "The British government has learned ..." From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 10:48:25 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:48:25 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 10:39 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> In Orca, we learn that [...] > >Well, we're told it. Remember, "The British government has learned ..." I was trying to phrase that statement in a way that avoided mentioning [Orca Spoiler], so I used passive voice, and wasn't careful with my verb choice. To the left, however, learning something that is false is still learning. Or is it? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jun 13 11:10:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > > >On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > >> In Orca, we learn that [...] > > > >Well, we're told it. Remember, "The British government has learned ..." > > [...] > To the left, however, learning something that is false is still learning. > Or is it? See my second example, from the "16 words". Typical English restricts learning to true things, where "true" probably means something like "best available knowledge". From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 11:22:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:22:31 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 11:10 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Philip Hart >> >> >On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> > >> >> In Orca, we learn that [...] >> > >> >Well, we're told it. Remember, "The British government has learned ..." >> >> [...] >> To the left, however, learning something that is false is still learning. >> Or is it? > >See my second example, from the "16 words". Typical English restricts >learning to true things, where "true" probably means something like >"best available knowledge". Is this statement by Kiera in /Orca/ about Verra's foresight not our "best available knowledge" of the subject? Majikjon -Missing the reference to "16 words", and it sounds like interesting reading. From scott at cjhunter.com Tue Jun 13 11:31:40 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:31:40 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <11ee01c68f17$9d7b96a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Spoiler space 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 >Sethra is noted by Vlad to be "Tall for a Dragaeran", and Kiera is noted >to be "small Dragaeran female form" (/Jhereg/, ch 4.) So there is >apparently some significant difference in their heights. Ha! So there WAS a reason why I imagined Kiera to be short (relatively speaking). >Since reading /Orca/ I've been very curious how Sethra was apparently able >to leave Dzur Mountain as Kiera during the events of /Taltos/ while Sethra >herself was "unable to leave Dzur Mountain at this time" (where it is >implied she's about to do battle with a Jenoine). Is this perhaps a crack? >Or possible due to the way in which Kiera manifests? Kiera's entire purpose at this point in the story is to relieve Vlad of his misgivings and convince him to agree to meet Morollan. At that point, however grave the threat, the Jenoine attack hadn't yet happened. (Judging by subsequent text, it took place while Vlad and Morollan were involved in fighting Loraan or thereabouts.) Sethra could quite literally have just stepped out for ten minutes for the sole purpose of allaying Vlad's fears. This is Kiera's last (only?) appearance in the "present day". She appears several more times but always in the past, when Vlad is describing his entrance into and subsequent rise through ranks of the Organization. Of course, Sethra's excuse of not knocking on Vlad's door is that she couldn't leave Dzur Mountain just then. Either she felt it would take too long to do that and the subsequent negotiating or she had her own reasons for pretending that she couldn't leave. It might well be that knowing him as well as she did in the guise of Kiera, that the whole rigamarole with Quion was designed to impress him with how much they desired him, personally. If she just knocked on his door with a business proposition, the relationship would be purely a business deal with an unusual customer. In a weird way, the whole plot to lure Vlad to Castle Black and on to Dzur Mountain is an exercise in laying the foundation for a personal relationship between Vlad, Sethra, and Morollan; one where Sethra is the instigator and has the commanding hand rather than being a customer looking for a service provider. >Aliera may just be >keeping her mouth shut, but it always seemed to me that Sethra and Aliera >were never as close as Sethra and Vlad or Sethra and Morrolan. It's true that Aliera treats Sethra as a compatriot, where she seems to greet Kiera as a fast friend, if you see the difference. I have a theory (completely unsupported by any evidence) that Kiera was responsible for bringing Aliera and Mario back together. >SKZB was dangling the >secret in front of our faces at every opportunity from the very beginning. >Ah, hindsight. Yeah, it's amusing how many "Ah ha!" moments you get when you go back and read the series from the beginning once you know the secret. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 11:43:01 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606131142t31ba4b29qa5ee6075fea8fe77@mail.gmail.com> References: <448EE931.2090307@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0606131142t31ba4b29qa5ee6075fea8fe77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606131143y5894361sc3c6b20c5a8e3587@mail.gmail.com> [Fwd to list] On 6/13/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > Looking at those two paragraphs together, it may be that Kiera has a > serious function in being Sethra's home away from home. Maybe Sethra > couldn't leave Dzur Mountain, but Kiera was already in storage somewhere > far away. Sethra goes to sleep, and Kiera wakes up. That would be a > useful thing for a Wizard to be able to do. The problem I see with that is, why not have Kiera steal the staff from Loraan instead? She'd be at least as good at it as Sethra would, and presumably better than either Morrolan or Vlad. (Vlad's an assassin, not a thief; truth be told he's kind of a weird pick for the job, unless Sethra was just prepping him to accompany Morrolan to the Paths.) I can accept that Kiera could slip away for a brief chat with Vlad, while not exposing herself to battle with an Athyra wizard in his keep (teleport blocks, etc.) when the Jenoine could come knocking at any minute. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jun 13 11:54:09 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606131143y5894361sc3c6b20c5a8e3587@mail.gmail.com> References: <448EE931.2090307@brazee.net> <2ddbda5f0606131142t31ba4b29qa5ee6075fea8fe77@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0606131143y5894361sc3c6b20c5a8e3587@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > [...] why not have Kiera steal the staff from Loraan instead? She'd be > at least as good at it as Sethra would, and presumably better than > either Morrolan or Vlad. (Vlad's an assassin, not a thief; truth be told > he's kind of a weird pick for the job, unless Sethra was just prepping > him to accompany Morrolan to the Paths.) IIRC, the keep's defenses are keyed to Dragaeran DNA. Vlad has of course been trained to some extent by Kiera in techniques common to thieves and assassins. And I certainly have always thought your "prepping" point was involved. Somewhat more speculatively, Kiera may have certain traits which would make her more noticeable to a highly-skilled Athyra than a run-of-the-mill extraordinary thief. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 11:54:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:54:32 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <11ee01c68f17$9d7b96a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 11:31 AM To cc Subject RE: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) Spoiler space 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 >Kiera's entire purpose at this point in the story is to relieve Vlad of his >misgivings and convince him to agree to meet Morollan. At that point, >however grave the threat, the Jenoine attack hadn't yet happened. (Judging >by subsequent text, it took place while Vlad and Morollan were involved in >fighting Loraan or thereabouts.) Sethra could quite literally have just IIRC, Vlad asks Sethra during their very first meeting (an hour? two? after seeing Kiera at Ferenk's) why she and Morrolan don't just blast into Loraan's keep and take the staff... and Sethra's excuse is that she can't leave the mountain at present. This is, obviously, *before* Vlad breaks into Loraan's keep. >Of course, Sethra's excuse of not knocking on Vlad's door is that she >couldn't leave Dzur Mountain just then. Either she felt it would take too >long to do that and the subsequent negotiating or she had her own reasons >for pretending that she couldn't leave. It might well be that knowing him as >well as she did in the guise of Kiera, that the whole rigamarole with Quion >was designed to impress him with how much they desired him, personally. If >she just knocked on his door with a business proposition, the relationship >would be purely a business deal with an unusual customer. In a weird way, >the whole plot to lure Vlad to Castle Black and on to Dzur Mountain is an >exercise in laying the foundation for a personal relationship between Vlad, >Sethra, and Morollan; one where Sethra is the instigator and has the >commanding hand rather than being a customer looking for a service provider. Knowing how well Kiera knew Vlad, it's somehwat odd that Sethra could have *really* misjudged him that badly regarding Quion. To the left, however, it's likely that there wasn't ever an analogous situation while Kiera was around Vlad (while they were friends, she didn't really interact with him on a "professional" level after he assumed his own territory.) So maybe she really did just misjudge him a bit, and that the exchange with Sethra later was exactly what it seemed to be. >>Aliera may just be >>keeping her mouth shut, but it always seemed to me that Sethra and Aliera >>were never as close as Sethra and Vlad or Sethra and Morrolan. > >It's true that Aliera treats Sethra as a compatriot, where she seems to >greet Kiera as a fast friend, if you see the difference. I have a theory >(completely unsupported by any evidence) that Kiera was responsible for >bringing Aliera and Mario back together. Ooo. Interesting. A friendship with Kiera might explain a lot about where Mario could have gotten to. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Tue Jun 13 12:02:07 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:02:07 -0600 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) Message-ID: <448F0BAF.8080401@brazee.net> On 12:42 PM Maximilian Wilson wrote: > The problem I see with that is, why not have Kiera steal the staff > from Loraan instead? She'd be at least as good at it as Sethra would, > and presumably better than either Morrolan or Vlad. We have seen some long-term effects of Vlad being there. And we have seen elsewhere that the powers-that-be do work with long-term plans, sometimes without knowing how or why they are doing stuff. So Vlad had to be there. From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:04:55 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:04:55 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: <11ee01c68f17$9d7b96a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606131204w54d3f6e0if44c6df616bc6fa@mail.gmail.com> On 6/13/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Ooo. Interesting. > > A friendship with Kiera might explain a lot about where Mario could have > gotten to. Tukko is Mario? Hmmm. ;) -M. -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:19:47 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:19:47 -0400 Subject: Games In-Reply-To: <17550.56081.955241.33306@fnord.io.com> References: <20060613152151.29097.qmail@web52612.mail.yahoo.com> <17550.56081.955241.33306@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: Dragons play Starcraft? On 6/13/06, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > > Felix Eisen writes: > >Dragons would play Risk. Or chess, but everyone would play chess. I > >think Risk, as a 'fun-n-games' board game (as compared to the 'deep > >thought' game that chess and go are), would be the Dragon's meat... > > Those who underestimate the dragons generally do not get ahead. (or > rather, are not unlikely to lose theirs). Dragons would play chess, > or go, and excell at them, or play more realistic deep tactical > simulations. > > > Vallista would play 'Mousetrap'. :> > > Core wars (well, if it were available). Or robot wars, or even > ccgs--the "build a better foo" and have it battle soemone else's foo > would probably appeal. > > > -- > Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) > |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) > --^-- "Did you know, if you increment enough, you /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' > /\\ get an extra digit?" "I knew," weeps Six. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ > /-\\\ "We knew. But we had forgotten." '---''(_/--' (_/-' > > > > From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jun 13 12:30:12 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Is this statement by Kiera in /Orca/ about Verra's foresight not our "best > available knowledge" of the subject? Vlad may consider himself to have learned something, but I think we have to have a higher standard than believing X because Y told Z. > Majikjon > -Missing the reference to "16 words", and it sounds like interesting > reading. OT and political: This refers to the implied claim by President Bush in his State of the Union message from '03 that the Brits knew Saddam Hussein had sought uranium in Africa. The admin subsequently retracted the statement, though the Blair govt stands by it. It is believed that the formulation "The British govt has learned X" was used because there was too much insistence in our govt that we had no evidence for X, but it was true that the Brits claimed X. There was a great deal of unhappiness about "learned" under the view of its meaning expressed earlier. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 12:51:18 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:51:18 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: <20060613154828.19205.qmail@web52614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, wrote: > > > > > > > Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out > there): > > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > > > Sethra is noted by Vlad to be "Tall for a Dragaeran", Can you point to where it says that? I searched, but did not find (although I suppose the OCR may have been imperfect). Vlad does use the word "tall" when referring to Sethra, but I can't help wondering if that's a general impression rather than a genuine comparative, since all Dragaerans are taller than Vlad, and Sethra is just generally impressive because she's Sethra. > and Kiera is noted to be "small Dragaeran female form" > (/Jhereg/, ch 4.) I did find this, which is very interesting indeed. > So there is apparently some significant difference in their heights. A mundane possibility that occurs to me: Sethra wears platform boots; Kiera wears soft shoes, or some sort of ninja-like sock-slipper. > I find it hard to see how this could really be accomplished without > invoking some aspect of shape-changing ability... Maybe "you wear a disguise, first, from the inside" is a hint - perhaps she can simply expand and contract her vertebra. > Unless she simply keeps Kiera's body in a cooler > somewhere in Dzur Mountain, and "inhabits" it when needed. > This idea is one of my earlier pararectal ideations, I nearly think. But who can say? From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 13:02:18 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:02:18 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <20060613161215.8628.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060613161215.8628.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, Felix Eisen wrote: > I don't think I need spoiler space on this one, but... > > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > > I think what everyone's forgetting is a single six-letter > word, and what it means in Dragaera: wizard. A wizard is > someone who takes sorcery, wizardry, and whatever other mystic > magical '-y' words there are in Dragaera (yeah, so I forget) and > twists them all together. Oh, and in so doing he also creates a > staff in which he keeps his soul. So why's this important? > Well, a Morganti weapon cannot destroy a soul if it isn't > there; you can't destroy the soul of someone who's already dead, > for example. The soul, according to the explanation of > revivification, hangs around for about 3 days before moving on, > but it isn't -in- the body, and thus subject to destruction via > Morganti. Loraan's soul at the time of his 'first' death by, > apparently, Blackwand, was in his staff -- not in his body. > While clearly he was still alive, the mystic details (or > 'engineering', as the Necromancer would put it) of being a > wizard preserves his soul from being destroyed. I would tend to doubt this, simply because Vlad has never, ever suggested that a wizard was somehow immune to Morganti weapons. Indeed, the "cramp his style" quote seems to emphasize that wizards are just as vulnerable to simple weapons as anyone else. If wizards had their souls that well guarded against attack, I would think that the Jhereg grapevine would have passed this information along at *some* point. The only ones who *are* specifically described as being immune to Morganti weapons are the bearers of the Great Weapons, which will indeed protect the souls of their bearers - and even there, Aliera describes it as being a chancy sort of thing, as I recall. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 13:09:40 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:09:40 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 01:02 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead On 6/13/06, Felix Eisen wrote: > I don't think I need spoiler space on this one, but... > > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > >The only ones who *are* specifically described as being immune to >Morganti weapons are the bearers of the Great Weapons, which will >indeed protect the souls of their bearers - and even there, Aliera >describes it as being a chancy sort of thing, as I recall. Two others I can think of are: 1. The Emperor (Due to the Orb) 2. The Jenoine (Who knows where they keep *their* souls?) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 13 13:57:28 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:57:28 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 12:51 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) On 6/13/06, wrote: > > > > > > > Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out > there): > > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10 > 11 > 12 > 13 > 14 > 15 > 16 > 17 > >> >> Sethra is noted by Vlad to be "Tall for a Dragaeran", > >Can you point to where it says that? I searched, but did not find >(although I suppose the OCR may have been imperfect). > >Vlad does use the word "tall" when referring to Sethra, but I can't >help wondering if that's a general impression rather than a genuine >comparative, since all Dragaerans are taller than Vlad, and Sethra is >just generally impressive because she's Sethra. /Phoenix/, Chapter 7. (Page 255, omnibus) "You haven't met (Sethra) yet, so picture if you will a tall Dragaeran wearing..." >Maybe "you wear a disguise, first, from the inside" is a hint - >perhaps she can simply expand and contract her vertebra. "First" from the inside, certainly. Not necessarily "last" as well, however. Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jun 13 15:29:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:29:02 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/13/06 12:51 PM > > To > "Dragaera List" > cc > > Subject > Re: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) > > > > > > > On 6/13/06, wrote: > > >> >> >> >> >> Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out >> there): >> >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> 5 >> 6 >> 7 >> 8 >> 9 >> 10 >> 11 >> 12 >> 13 >> 14 >> 15 >> 16 >> 17 >> >> > > >>> Sethra is noted by Vlad to be "Tall for a Dragaeran", >>> >> Can you point to where it says that? I searched, but did not find >> (although I suppose the OCR may have been imperfect). >> >> Vlad does use the word "tall" when referring to Sethra, but I can't >> help wondering if that's a general impression rather than a genuine >> comparative, since all Dragaerans are taller than Vlad, and Sethra is >> just generally impressive because she's Sethra. >> > > /Phoenix/, Chapter 7. (Page 255, omnibus) > > "You haven't met (Sethra) yet, so picture if you will a tall Dragaeran > wearing... Hmmm... "Tall for a Dragaeran" vs "a tall Dragaeran". Semantic difference? In this context, negligable. In this case, why bother saying a Dragaeran is tall at all, if you just mean "tall, like all Dragaerans are"? Or "tall, compared to an Easterner" (which is kind of like saying a Banana is round... when compared to a dagger). Majikjon From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Jun 13 15:24:46 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:24:46 -0400 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <448EF3B7.3000306@brazee.net> References: <448EF3B7.3000306@brazee.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060613181835.025eb7f0@cox.net> At 01:19 PM 6/13/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: >On 10:27 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Not one of these people has really been "allowed" to leave by the >> gods. >> Each one of them had a reason why the Paths could not hold them in. >> I contend that no intervention by the gods was made to "allow" them >> out in any of these cases. > >So you think that vial of blood was taken without the gods' approval? Which raises the question: How? >If the gods can say that Vlad can leave only once, we have to wonder >what will stop him from leaving a second time - unless the gods >"allowed" him to leave the first time. > >>The only one of these that had full Dragaeran blood when she left >>was Zerika, and she had the Orb (and through it, all the power of >>the Greater Sea of Chaos) helping her. If this does not actually >>make her a goddess, it comes as close as a normal mortal can, methinks. >Which even supports the gods allowed her to leave. > >The only part of this argument that I don't get is why there is one >category for all these different reasons, and another category for >Sethra. As far as I know, Sethra is also unique. We know that much! -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Jun 13 15:28:04 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:28:04 -0400 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060613182724.0260e0c8@cox.net> At 03:30 PM 6/13/2006, Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > Is this statement by Kiera in /Orca/ about Verra's foresight not our "best > > available knowledge" of the subject? > >Vlad may consider himself to have learned something, but I think we have >to have a higher standard than believing X because Y told Z. > > > > Majikjon > > -Missing the reference to "16 words", and it sounds like interesting > > reading. > >OT and political: > >This refers to the implied claim by President Bush in his State of the >Union message from '03 that the Brits knew Saddam Hussein had sought >uranium in Africa. The admin subsequently retracted the statement, >though the Blair govt stands by it. It is believed that the formulation >"The British govt has learned X" was used because there was too much >insistence in our govt that we had no evidence for X, but it was true >that the Brits claimed X. There was a great deal of unhappiness about >"learned" under the view of its meaning expressed earlier. Oh, surely the British would have phrased that, "...the...government have learned..."? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 17:28:28 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:28:28 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> References: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > "Davdi Silverrock" > > To > > "Dragaera List" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/13/06, wrote: > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every book out > >> there): > >> > >> 1 > >> 2 > >> 3 > >> 4 > >> 5 > >> 6 > >> 7 > >> 8 > >> 9 > >> 10 > >> 11 > >> 12 > >> 13 > >> 14 > >> 15 > >> 16 > >> 17 > >> > >> > > > > > >>> Sethra is noted by Vlad to be "Tall for a Dragaeran", > >>> > >> Can you point to where it says that? I searched, but did not find > >> (although I suppose the OCR may have been imperfect). > >> > >> Vlad does use the word "tall" when referring to Sethra, but I can't > >> help wondering if that's a general impression rather than a genuine > >> comparative, since all Dragaerans are taller than Vlad, and Sethra is > >> just generally impressive because she's Sethra. > >> > > > > /Phoenix/, Chapter 7. (Page 255, omnibus) > > > > "You haven't met (Sethra) yet, so picture if you will a tall Dragaeran > > wearing... > Hmmm... "Tall for a Dragaeran" vs "a tall Dragaeran". A search for the exact phrase "Tall for a Dragaeran" in /The Book of Jhereg/ does find: "Morrolan was a bit tall for a Dragaeran." For whatever that's worth. > Semantic difference? In this context, negligable. In this case, why > bother saying a Dragaeran is tall at all, if you just mean "tall, like > all Dragaerans are"? Perhaps it was a narrative nudge to remind the readers to vizualize someone around 7 feet tall, definitely over 6 feet. Newer readers might forget that, without the hint. Since SKZB did intend to have each novel be readable standalone, he would therefore presumably re-introduce the idea in each book that Dragaerans are ~7ft tall, give or take, and emphasize it for the main characters. Or so I might speculate, anyway. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Tue Jun 13 18:09:45 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> References: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > "Five Hundred Years After", Chapter 8, page 101 (paperback): > > "...we must look beyond her physical manifestation, for her appearance > was not, we know from several sources, unduly prepossessing. She was not > exceptionally tall; she was neither remarkably handsome nor unusually > grotesque." > > [...] > > Paarfi, of course, is going off third-hand accounts, since it seems > pretty clear he's never actually seen her for himself (personal theories > of some here notwithstanding) [...] This is entirely consistent with Sethra having a sense of humor. From lincicum at comcast.net Tue Jun 13 17:53:45 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:53:45 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> Message-ID: <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/13/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> > "Davdi Silverrock" >> > To >> > "Dragaera List" >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 6/13/06, wrote: >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every >> book out >> >> there): >> >> >> >> 1 >> >> 2 >> >> 3 >> >> 4 >> >> 5 >> >> 6 >> >> 7 >> >> 8 >> >> 9 >> >> 10 >> >> 11 >> >> 12 >> >> 13 >> >> 14 >> >> 15 >> >> 16 >> >> 17 >> >> > /Phoenix/, Chapter 7. (Page 255, omnibus) >> > >> > "You haven't met (Sethra) yet, so picture if you will a tall Dragaeran >> > wearing... >> Hmmm... "Tall for a Dragaeran" vs "a tall Dragaeran". > > A search for the exact phrase "Tall for a Dragaeran" in /The Book of > Jhereg/ does find: "Morrolan was a bit tall for a Dragaeran." For > whatever that's worth. Consulting Paarfi, here's how he describes Sethra in /FHYA/: "Five Hundred Years After", Chapter 8, page 101 (paperback): "...we must look beyond her physical manifestation, for her appearance was not, we know from several sources, unduly prepossessing. She was not exceptionally tall; she was neither remarkably handsome nor unusually grotesque." "not exceptionally tall" to me says "perhaps a bit taller than average, but certainly not short". Paarfi, of course, is going off third-hand accounts, since it seems pretty clear he's never actually seen her for himself (personal theories of some here notwithstanding), so his description is perhaps less reliable than Vlad's. Given that the "average" is given by Vlad many times as about 7 feet tall or so, perhaps a few inches more. This is a good ballpark figure for Sethra given this description. To the left, "small" as it describes Kiera, puts us about 6' 6" to 6' 9". (ballpark). There's probably enough wiggle room here to put them anywhere from five to nine inches difference, depending on who's description you're more inclined to believe. > Perhaps it was a narrative nudge to remind the readers to vizualize > someone around 7 feet tall, definitely over 6 feet. Newer readers > might forget that, without the hint. Since SKZB did intend to have > each novel be readable standalone, he would therefore presumably > re-introduce the idea in each book that Dragaerans are ~7ft tall, give > or take, and emphasize it for the main characters. > > Or so I might speculate, anyway. Certainly this argument has some merit, given that the comment about Sethra from /Phoenix/ comes on the heels of a comment about "you haven't met her yet" reminding us, as readers, that Vlad is supposedly introducing Sethra to us for the first time. All the same, five or six inches difference is a pretty noticeable height difference, and one that would be difficult to achieve just using elevator shoes, or some such. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 18:49:19 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:49:19 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> References: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 6/13/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> > "Davdi Silverrock" > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 6/13/06, wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Sethra Lavode Spoiler Space (which is to say, for nearly every > >> >> book out there): > >> >> > >> >> 1 > >> >> 2 > >> >> 3 > >> >> 4 > >> >> 5 > >> >> 6 > >> >> 7 > >> >> 8 > >> >> 9 > >> >> 10 > >> >> 11 > >> >> 12 > >> >> 13 > >> >> 14 > >> >> 15 > >> >> 16 > >> >> 17 > >> > >> > /Phoenix/, Chapter 7. (Page 255, omnibus) > >> > > >> > "You haven't met (Sethra) yet, so picture if you will a tall Dragaeran > >> > wearing... > >> Hmmm... "Tall for a Dragaeran" vs "a tall Dragaeran". > > > Consulting Paarfi, here's how he describes Sethra in /FHYA/: > > "Five Hundred Years After", Chapter 8, page 101 (paperback): > > "...we must look beyond her physical manifestation, for her appearance > was not, we know from several sources, unduly prepossessing. She was not > exceptionally tall; she was neither remarkably handsome nor unusually > grotesque." > > "not exceptionally tall" to me says "perhaps a bit taller than average, > but certainly not short". To the left, I can see someone using the phrase "not exceptionally tall" to mean "a little on the short side, but not wanting to call attention to it". I note that Kragar is described several times as being almost exactly 7ft, or a little under (maybe 6' 10" or 6' 11"). > > To the left, "small" as it describes Kiera, puts us about 6' 6" to 6' > 9". (ballpark). Seems reasonable. I would guess her to be a little closer to the high end, since that would allow her to reach the average with a 3-inch heel, not too unusual. Oh, and another thought about height adjustment: Sethra might levitate, like Aliera does, only with an illusion of her feet extending to the ground. From davdisil at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 18:52:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:52:20 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/13/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > "Five Hundred Years After", Chapter 8, page 101 (paperback): > > > > "...we must look beyond her physical manifestation, for her appearance > > was not, we know from several sources, unduly prepossessing. She was not > > exceptionally tall; she was neither remarkably handsome nor unusually > > grotesque." > > > > [...] > > > > Paarfi, of course, is going off third-hand accounts, since it seems > > pretty clear he's never actually seen her for himself (personal theories > > of some here notwithstanding) [...] > > This is entirely consistent with Sethra having a sense of humor. Or being quietly modest. I seem to recall someone suggesting that she might see herself as a farm girl who made good. From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 02:55:28 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 05:55:28 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) In-Reply-To: References: <448F3C2E.3040108@comcast.net> <448F5E19.1080305@comcast.net> Message-ID: I always thought of her as a haughty, powerful aristocrat with a weird sense of humor. On 6/13/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 6/13/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > > > > > "Five Hundred Years After", Chapter 8, page 101 (paperback): > > > > > > "...we must look beyond her physical manifestation, for her appearance > > > was not, we know from several sources, unduly prepossessing. She was > not > > > exceptionally tall; she was neither remarkably handsome nor unusually > > > grotesque." > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > Paarfi, of course, is going off third-hand accounts, since it seems > > > pretty clear he's never actually seen her for himself (personal > theories > > > of some here notwithstanding) [...] > > > > This is entirely consistent with Sethra having a sense of humor. > > Or being quietly modest. I seem to recall someone suggesting that she > might see herself as a farm girl who made good. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060614/b2e1a6b5/attachment.html From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 14 04:50:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 05:50:18 -0600 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) Message-ID: <448FF7FA.8040304@brazee.net> On 6/13/2006 4:29 PM Jon Lincicum wrote: > >/Phoenix/, Chapter 7. (Page 255, omnibus) > >> > >> "You haven't met (Sethra) yet, so picture if you will a tall > Dragaeran > >> wearing... > > Hmmm... "Tall for a Dragaeran" vs "a tall Dragaeran". > > Semantic difference? In this context, negligable. In this case, why > bother saying a Dragaeran is tall at all, if you just mean "tall, > like > all Dragaerans are"? Or "tall, compared to an Easterner" (which is > kind > of like saying a Banana is round... when compared to a dagger) Agreed, in the subsets of Dragaerans, she is tall. Although it seems odd that all 17 houses would average the same height. Are there relatively short houses? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 14 06:06:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:06:05 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060613181835.025eb7f0@cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 03:24 PM To Howard Brazee , "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >At 01:19 PM 6/13/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > >>So you think that vial of blood was taken without the gods' approval? > >Which raises the question: How? Not that I subscribe to this theory, but if I did, the answer would be obvious. She's a small girl of about 9 or 10 years with big brown eyes. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 14 06:27:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 Subject: How tall is your house? (was Re: Sethra Lavode) In-Reply-To: <448FF7FA.8040304@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/14/06 04:50 AM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Sethra Lavode (Large spoilers, esp Orca/Issola) >Although it seems odd that all 17 houses would average the same >height. Are there relatively short houses? It's somewhat odd, but I never got the impression that height was a distinguishing characteristic of any particular house. I would guess that Phoenix, Dragons and Dzur are usually pretty tall, and that Chreotha, Orca, Jhegaala, etc are somewhat shorter, but this is just a gut reaction, and I know of no textev to back it up. (And we know examples, like Aliera say, that do not conform to what I would perceive to be the norm for their House... Yet no one ever seems to miss the fact that Aliera is very clearly a Dragonlord.) House distinctions have always been described in terms of face/hair characteristics (Phoenix have golden hair/eyes, Dragons have dark hair, Dzur have very pointy ears, Teckla have no noble's point, etc), or in terms of behavioral differences. Of course, Vlad may not be particularly sensistive to height differences between Houses, since they're all just bloody-goddamm-tall to him. Paarfi doesn't mention anything like this either, however... For whatever that's worth. Majikjon From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 07:13:29 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:13:29 +0200 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Sethra is full Dragaeran blood. Is she? I'm not claiming that she isn't, but living 200 000 years isn't really usual... She's a "mystery wrapped in an enema"*... ;) *Terry Pratchett quote. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 14 07:34:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 07:34:55 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Martin Wohlert" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/14/06 07:13 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>Sethra is full Dragaeran blood. > >Is she? I'm not claiming that she isn't, but living 200 000 years isn't >really usual... > >She's a "mystery wrapped in an enema"*... ;) > > >*Terry Pratchett quote. Well, it's true that you never really know for sure when you're talking about Sethra, but if she wasn't of Dragaeran blood, she wouldn't have gone to the Paths in the first place. Does this prove "full Dragaeran blood"? No. Aliera is not "full Dragaeran blood" yet no one implied that she didn't belong in the Paths during /Taltos/. Sethra's longevity may be genetic, or may be as a result of something totally different. I'd guess it's something different. It usually is, with her. Of course, Sethra's experience when visiting the Halls of Judgment is different from the other four examples (or, at least, it is implied to be) in that she is supposed to have actually been dead when she got there. The others, apart from Aliera, were very much alive. (Does being trapped in a wooden staff count as "alive"? hmmmm) Majikjon From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jun 14 07:44:59 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:44:59 +0200 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <44901BBE.7020903@brazee.net> Message-ID: Forwarded to the list... Howard Brazee wrote: >Martin Wohlert wrote: > >>Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>>Sethra is full Dragaeran blood. >> >>Is she? I'm not claiming that she isn't, but living 200 000 years isn't >>really usual... >> >> >> >That's a long time of drinking Dragaeran blood, maybe she's full of it, >maybe she's still thirsty. She died "before the interegnum" (according to the Timeline about 1000 years before), not "197000 years ago". From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 14 07:58:49 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 07:58:49 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Martin Wohlert" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/14/06 07:44 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >Howard Brazee wrote: >>Martin Wohlert wrote: >> >>>Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>>>Sethra is full Dragaeran blood. >>> >>>Is she? I'm not claiming that she isn't, but living 200 000 years isn't >>>really usual... >>> >>That's a long time of drinking Dragaeran blood, maybe she's full of it, >>maybe she's still thirsty. > >She died "before the interegnum" (according to the Timeline about 1000 years >before), not "197000 years ago". Ah, but we don't know that she wasn't already drinking blood before she died, do we? Maybe she already had a taste for it. Majikjon From rzawrekta at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 09:12:04 2006 From: rzawrekta at gmail.com (Shrenik Sanghvi) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:12:04 -0400 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... Message-ID: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> Check out this week's comics. As I type this, although the post is still from Monday, the comic had already been updated. For the record, I've been through similar situations when attempting to spread the joy. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic From alexx at panix.com Wed Jun 14 09:29:35 2006 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dragaera in Penny Arcade! Message-ID: <200606141629.k5EGTZW14715@panix3.panix.com> Today's Penny Arcade webcomic is (sort of) about Dragaera! http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/ In a day or two, that will probably be: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/06/14 Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at panixSPAMBL@CK.com http://www.panix.com/~alexx If God had meant us to be naked, we would have been born that way. [Seen on a Nancy Button, www.nancybuttons.com] From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 14 09:36:30 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:36:30 -0700 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <260a01c68fd0$b13e2f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Ha ha! That was one of the better Penny Arcade strips I've seen. It IS interesting trying to help a newbie get a handle on all of the nuances of the Vladiad. I introduced my wife to the series when she was going through a reading phase and literally devouring a book a day while she was laid up after surgery. I had some conversations that were reminiscent of Gabe and Tycho there. From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 09:54:32 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:54:32 -0400 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <260a01c68fd0$b13e2f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> <260a01c68fd0$b13e2f90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Hear that sound? Steve's sales going up. On 6/14/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > > Ha ha! That was one of the better Penny Arcade strips I've seen. > > It IS interesting trying to help a newbie get a handle on all of the > nuances > of the Vladiad. I introduced my wife to the series when she was going > through a reading phase and literally devouring a book a day while she was > laid up after surgery. I had some conversations that were reminiscent of > Gabe and Tycho there. > > > > From almagaiz at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 09:56:43 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:56:43 -0400 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20060613181835.025eb7f0@cox.net> Message-ID: Verra gave Sethra the vial of blood, if I recall Sethra's response. But that might not mean she had approval...or would she even need to? On 6/14/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > "Peter H. Granzeau" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/13/06 03:24 PM > > To > Howard Brazee , "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" > > cc > > Subject > Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead > > > > > >At 01:19 PM 6/13/2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > >>So you think that vial of blood was taken without the gods' approval? > > > >Which raises the question: How? > > Not that I subscribe to this theory, but if I did, the answer would be > obvious. > > She's a small girl of about 9 or 10 years with big brown eyes. > > Majikjon > > > From pulmon at mac.com Wed Jun 14 09:57:55 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:57:55 -0400 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AC1EFAB-1252-4CD3-8B12-E578C3183872@mac.com> On Jun 14, 2006, at 12:12 PM, Shrenik Sanghvi wrote: > Check out this week's comics. As I type this, although the post is > still > from Monday, the comic had already been updated. > > For the record, I've been through similar situations when > attempting to > spread the joy. > > http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic I never heard of this! It is awesome! From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 14 10:15:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:15:21 -0600 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20060613181835.025eb7f0@cox.net> Message-ID: <44904429.5070005@brazee.net> Louis Eastman wrote: >Verra gave Sethra the vial of blood, if I recall Sethra's response. But that >might not mean she had approval...or would she even need to? > > Time, cause & effect, and convincing arguments are different for the gods. It would be interesting to be in Sethra's head as she discovered how the blood is getting used, as she sees how that fit into her plans. Chances are, Verra's head would be less interesting this way, she might not have even thought about it as she did what was necessary. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 14 10:47:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:47:04 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <44904429.5070005@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/14/06 10:15 AM To cc "Dragaera (E-mail)" Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >Louis Eastman wrote: > >>Verra gave Sethra the vial of blood, if I recall Sethra's response. But that >>might not mean she had approval...or would she even need to? >> >> >Time, cause & effect, and convincing arguments are different for the gods. > >It would be interesting to be in Sethra's head as she discovered how the >blood is getting used, as she sees how that fit into her plans. >Chances are, Verra's head would be less interesting this way, she might >not have even thought about it as she did what was necessary. I'm sure Verra would be very happy about how it was being used, as Aliera was fully preparred to stay in the Paths unless Morrolan could leave also. Thus, giving up her blood saved her daughter's life. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 10:54:32 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:54:32 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20060613181835.025eb7f0@cox.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606141054i705e5a3bw835946f22e6703d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/14/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Not that I subscribe to this theory, but if I did, the answer would be > obvious. > > She's a small girl of about 9 or 10 years with big brown eyes. Quibble: shouldn't that be "a small girl of about 20 or 25"? Seeing as how she's Dragaeran in the Vladiverse. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 14 11:09:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:09:17 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606141054i705e5a3bw835946f22e6703d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/14/06 10:54 AM To "Dragaera (E-mail)" cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >On 6/14/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Not that I subscribe to this theory, but if I did, the answer would be >> obvious. >> >> She's a small girl of about 9 or 10 years with big brown eyes. > >Quibble: shouldn't that be "a small girl of about 20 or 25"? Seeing as >how she's Dragaeran in the Vladiverse. Whatever you prefer. I would point out, however, that Devera is not, strictly speaking, 100% Dragaeran, and also appears outside of the Vladiverse. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 11:37:28 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:37:28 -0700 Subject: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606141054i705e5a3bw835946f22e6703d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606141137h6a4fa30xade8c6688d546f38@mail.gmail.com> On 6/14/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Whatever you prefer. > > I would point out, however, that Devera is not, strictly speaking, 100% > Dragaeran, and also appears outside of the Vladiverse. Well, 75% Dragaeran, and 25% Verra. I think it's an interesting question whether Devera is *always* Aliera's daughter (and therefore Dragaeran), or only within the Vladiverse. ISTR that she appears at a funeral in /Freedom and Necessity/ without attracting undue attention. -Maximilian -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Jun 14 18:25:29 2006 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dragaera in Penny Arcade! In-Reply-To: <200606141629.k5EGTZW14715@panix3.panix.com> References: <200606141629.k5EGTZW14715@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jun 2006, Alexx Kay wrote: @> Today's Penny Arcade webcomic is (sort of) about Dragaera! @> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/ @> @> In a day or two, that will probably be: @> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/06/14 One hopes Steve will see some extra sales from this; Penny Arcade's readership is unimaginably vast. From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Jun 14 20:54:57 2006 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 22:54:57 -0500 Subject: Want your own Blackwand? In-Reply-To: <448836A3.3050903@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <44871A97.1090505@Sun.COM> <2ddbda5f0606071206qead97d3kb9b622027650a1c2@mail.gmail.com> <448836A3.3050903@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <20060615035457.GB5739@ophelia.dy.alyra.org> ...not if it can't be used as a weapon. ;) I mislike wallhangers. Kat From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 07:13:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:13:32 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606141137h6a4fa30xade8c6688d546f38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/14/06 11:37 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Loraan, souls, and the Paths of the Dead >On 6/14/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Whatever you prefer. >> >> I would point out, however, that Devera is not, strictly speaking, 100% >> Dragaeran, and also appears outside of the Vladiverse. > >Well, 75% Dragaeran, and 25% Verra. I think it's an interesting >question whether Devera is *always* Aliera's daughter (and therefore >Dragaeran), or only within the Vladiverse. ISTR that she appears at a >funeral in /Freedom and Necessity/ without attracting undue attention. Hmm... Does Devera have an extra joint on all her fingers? ...or for that matter, does Aliera? These are the questions that keep me awake at night. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 07:18:40 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:18:40 -0700 Subject: Games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Louis Eastman" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/13/06 12:19 PM To "Joshua Kronengold" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Games >Dragons play Starcraft? If they do, I'll wager they only play as the Protoss. Majikjon From johne.cook at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 08:00:44 2006 From: johne.cook at gmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:00:44 -0500 Subject: Dragaera in Penny Arcade! In-Reply-To: References: <200606141629.k5EGTZW14715@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: On 6/14/06, John Klein wrote: > One hopes Steve will see some extra sales from this; Penny Arcade's > readership is unimaginably vast. I guess it just goes to show that you never know where something will go. I mentioned Steve as a favorite author and the Vlad / Khaavren novels as personal favorites in an e-mail to Tycho some years ago. He didn't respond to that e-mail, but has to others about tech / creative writing. I mention Steve as a favorite author in the same breath as Zelazny all the time because it happens to be true. I bet it's the same with many of you. Here's hoping it comes to something and enables Steve to continue to write the sort of things that interest and challenge him, and improves the lifestyle to which he has become accustomed to (by which I mean 'more steak'). ; ) -- johne cook - wisconsin, usa | http://raygunrevival.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Thu Jun 15 08:48:17 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:48:17 +0200 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Hmm... > >Does Devera have an extra joint on all her fingers? > >...or for that matter, does Aliera? > >These are the questions that keep me awake at night. > >Majikjon > I'm sure it would be much harder keeping Aliera's mother a secret if she was "mutated" like that. I'm sure Vlad would have mentioned it sometime. And, consequently I don't see why Devera would look like that. From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 09:35:56 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:35:56 -0700 Subject: Dragaera in Penny Arcade! In-Reply-To: References: <200606141629.k5EGTZW14715@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606150935u215e24cas6928019113c0e900@mail.gmail.com> I usually mention Steve's writing in attribution for some pithy remark. For instance, a political discussion I had the other day, where I felt it appropriate to point out that the defender always starts the war. -Max On 6/15/06, Johne Cook wrote: > On 6/14/06, John Klein wrote: > > One hopes Steve will see some extra sales from this; Penny Arcade's > > readership is unimaginably vast. > > I guess it just goes to show that you never know where something will > go. I mentioned Steve as a favorite author and the Vlad / Khaavren > novels as personal favorites in an e-mail to Tycho some years ago. He > didn't respond to that e-mail, but has to others about tech / creative > writing. I mention Steve as a favorite author in the same breath as > Zelazny all the time because it happens to be true. I bet it's the > same with many of you. > > Here's hoping it comes to something and enables Steve to continue to > write the sort of things that interest and challenge him, and improves > the lifestyle to which he has become accustomed to (by which I mean > 'more steak'). ; ) > > -- > johne cook - wisconsin, usa > | http://raygunrevival.com | http://theswordreview.com | |http://phywriter.com > -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From almagaiz at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 09:48:38 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 Subject: Dragaera in Penny Arcade! In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606150935u215e24cas6928019113c0e900@mail.gmail.com> References: <200606141629.k5EGTZW14715@panix3.panix.com> <2ddbda5f0606150935u215e24cas6928019113c0e900@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking of favorite authors...a small anecdote. I was at the Sept 20 signing of Anansi Boys, the day it came out. As I chatted with Mr. Gaiman, I mentioned he was my second favorite author. He said, Who's first? I said, Steve Brust. Eyebrows went up. He said, I'll be sure to mention that to him. I don't know if he did.....but.. On 6/15/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > > I usually mention Steve's writing in attribution for some pithy > remark. For instance, a political discussion I had the other day, > where I felt it appropriate to point out that the defender always > starts the war. > > -Max > > On 6/15/06, Johne Cook wrote: > > On 6/14/06, John Klein wrote: > > > One hopes Steve will see some extra sales from this; Penny Arcade's > > > readership is unimaginably vast. > > > > I guess it just goes to show that you never know where something will > > go. I mentioned Steve as a favorite author and the Vlad / Khaavren > > novels as personal favorites in an e-mail to Tycho some years ago. He > > didn't respond to that e-mail, but has to others about tech / creative > > writing. I mention Steve as a favorite author in the same breath as > > Zelazny all the time because it happens to be true. I bet it's the > > same with many of you. > > > > Here's hoping it comes to something and enables Steve to continue to > > write the sort of things that interest and challenge him, and improves > > the lifestyle to which he has become accustomed to (by which I mean > > 'more steak'). ; ) > > > > -- > > johne cook - wisconsin, usa > > | http://raygunrevival.com | http://theswordreview.com | > |http://phywriter.com > > > > > -- > Be pretty if you are, > Be witty if you can, > But be cheerful if it kills you. > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 09:53:35 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:53:35 -0700 Subject: On War (was Dragaera in Penny Arcade!) In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606150935u215e24cas6928019113c0e900@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 09:35 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Dragaera in Penny Arcade! >I usually mention Steve's writing in attribution for some pithy >remark. For instance, a political discussion I had the other day, >where I felt it appropriate to point out that the defender always >starts the war. Interestingly, this is actually a concept taken directly from Clausewitz. http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/Quotations.html Another one that may be familiar is this one: ?A defender must always seek to change over to the attack as soon as he has gained the benefit of the defense.? Sounds an awful lot like Sethra's strategy when fighting Fornia, doesn't it? Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 10:19:37 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:19:37 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2be528100606151019l4ccaccd5hde79e28b48ebcc4c@mail.gmail.com> On 6/15/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >Hmm... > > > >Does Devera have an extra joint on all her fingers? > > > >...or for that matter, does Aliera? > > > >These are the questions that keep me awake at night. > > > >Majikjon > > > > I'm sure it would be much harder keeping Aliera's mother a secret if she was > "mutated" like that. I'm sure Vlad would have mentioned it sometime. And, > consequently I don't see why Devera would look like that. > Is Aliera's maternity a secret? I've always wondered whether being only half Dragon could have disqualified Aliera from being heir. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 10:34:28 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:34:28 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: <2be528100606151019l4ccaccd5hde79e28b48ebcc4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Joy Nicholson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 10:19 AM To "Martin Wohlert" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >On 6/15/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > >> I'm sure it would be much harder keeping Aliera's mother a secret if she was >> "mutated" like that. I'm sure Vlad would have mentioned it sometime. And, >> consequently I don't see why Devera would look like that. >> > >Is Aliera's maternity a secret? I've always wondered whether being >only half Dragon could have disqualified Aliera from being heir. Verra was revealed to be Aliera's mother near the end of /Phoenix/... So it *was* a secret for the first four and a half books of the Vlad series... (This could be called the greater Phoneix spoiler, I suppose... but it's old enough that it probably doesn't need spoiler warnings.) I wouldn't expect that having a mother who is a god (and the patron god of many members of your house) would be held against you...rather the reverse. I would expect only the Lyorn (or perhaps the Phoenix) would have a problem with this parentage. Majikjon From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 10:37:30 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:37:30 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: <2be528100606151019l4ccaccd5hde79e28b48ebcc4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2be528100606151037w27b63a7ele3206dea1517d89b@mail.gmail.com> > Verra was revealed to be Aliera's mother near the end of /Phoenix/... So > it *was* a secret for the first four and a half books of the Vlad > series... (This could be called the greater Phoneix spoiler, I suppose... > but it's old enough that it probably doesn't need spoiler warnings.) What I meant was: Is it a secret in the Dragaeran universe? Sure, Vlad doesn't find out until Phoenix, but probably just because no one bothered to tell him or thought it mattered. Does the majority of the House of Dragon, or the Court perhaps, know? It is Official? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 10:54:51 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:54:51 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: <2be528100606151037w27b63a7ele3206dea1517d89b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Joy Nicholson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 10:37 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >> Verra was revealed to be Aliera's mother near the end of /Phoenix/... So >> it *was* a secret for the first four and a half books of the Vlad >> series... (This could be called the greater Phoneix spoiler, I suppose... >> but it's old enough that it probably doesn't need spoiler warnings.) > >What I meant was: >Is it a secret in the Dragaeran universe? >Sure, Vlad doesn't find out until Phoenix, but probably just because >no one bothered to tell him or thought it mattered. Does the majority >of the House of Dragon, or the Court perhaps, know? It is Official? Morrolan knows. Vlad knows. Sethra knows. Zerika (through the Orb) undoubtably knows. The biggest cincher here is that Paarfi, apparently, knows. (And has written about it (well, around the edges of it, anyway) in historical fiction that is freely available to the masses by Vlad's time.) I think it's safe to say it's not a secret to anyone but "pre-Phoenix" Vlad. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 11:00:46 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Morrolan knows. Vlad knows. Sethra knows. Zerika (through the Orb) > undoubtably knows. > > The biggest cincher here is that Paarfi, apparently, knows. No, this may tell us nothing at all. > (And has written about it (well, around the edges of it, anyway) in > historical fiction that is freely available to the masses by Vlad's > time.) This I think is entirely unclear and likely wrong. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 11:03:52 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:03:52 -0700 Subject: On War (was Dragaera in Penny Arcade!) In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606150935u215e24cas6928019113c0e900@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Maximilian Wilson" > > > > > > > >I usually mention Steve's writing in attribution for some pithy > >remark. For instance, a political discussion I had the other day, > >where I felt it appropriate to point out that the defender always > >starts the war. > > Interestingly, this is actually a concept taken directly from Clausewitz. > > http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/Quotations.html > I have always been certain that most (if not all) of the military aphorisms and comments in /Dragon/ came from Clausewitz, because, after all, that is exactly what Steve confessed to reading, presumably for research for that very book. http://dreamcafe.com/books.html From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 11:18:26 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:18:26 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 11:00 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Morrolan knows. Vlad knows. Sethra knows. Zerika (through the Orb) >> undoubtably knows. >> >> The biggest cincher here is that Paarfi, apparently, knows. > >No, this may tell us nothing at all. > >> (And has written about it (well, around the edges of it, anyway) in >> historical fiction that is freely available to the masses by Vlad's >> time.) > >This I think is entirely unclear and likely wrong. Paarfi describes Adron's reaction to learning that he has just had a daughter (Aliera) in such a way that it makes you think he knows the reasons for why Adron would react this way (and thus, that he knows the fact that Aliera is Verra's daughter). Is Paarfi bluffing? Is he merely describing Adron's reaction based on historical accounts of Khaavren, Mica, or others who were present at "The Painted Sign Inn" when this event transpired? This is entirely possible, I will admit. Or maybe he knew the whole thing, which is how he was able to describe this interaction as accurately as he did? This is what I meant by Paarfi "writing around the edges of it". Is it conclusive proof of what he knows? By no means. But, being a "historian", I think it likely he would have researched the reasons for this reaction from Adron. Does that mean he actually learned anything? Again, not for certain. But he certainly avoids contradicting the possibility, or offering any alternative explanation for Aliera's parentage. Of course, if Paarfi is actually Sethra, then "he" almost certainly knows, eh? Aliera doesn't really try to make any secret of the fact, however. (If so, why reveal such information in front of Vlad? Or Aibynn?) Or was it your point that /The Phoenix Guards/ was not available by Vlad's time? (In that Vlad was born in 221, and TPG is not published by Paarfi until 309?) This I will certainly conceede, and substitute the phrase "Vlad's approximate time". Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 11:27:30 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:27:30 -0700 Subject: On War (was Dragaera in Penny Arcade!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 11:03 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: On War (was Dragaera in Penny Arcade!) >On 6/15/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/Quotations.html >> > >I have always been certain that most (if not all) of the military >aphorisms and comments in /Dragon/ came from Clausewitz, because, >after all, that is exactly what Steve confessed to reading, presumably >for research for that very book. > > http://dreamcafe.com/books.html Indeed. Clausewitz is a good read; but it's a historical irony that many of his practical points, while accurate right at the time he wrote them, would become obsolete very shortly afterwards. (World War I changed a lot of the tactical practices of war, if not the fundamental concepts). He's a very good resource for the kind of battles we see in the Vlad books, however, and the fundmental principles of war don't really change very much. Sun Tzu is more timeless, if a bit less practical. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 11:33:17 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Of course, if Paarfi is actually Sethra, then "he" almost certainly knows, > eh? Yep. > Aliera doesn't really try to make any secret of the fact, however. (If so, > why reveal such information in front of Vlad? Or Aibynn?) Joy's original question was: Is Aliera's maternity a secret? I've always wondered whether being only half Dragon could have disqualified Aliera from being heir. Aliera didn't reveal anything to Vlad, did she? And Aibynn wouldn't be listened to by anyone if he were inclined to blab. And Aliera isn't the heir by that point, given the events of _Y_. > Or was it your point that /The Phoenix Guards/ was not available by Vlad's > time? (In that Vlad was born in 221, and TPG is not published by Paarfi > until 309?) This I will certainly conceede, and substitute the phrase > "Vlad's approximate time". Well after questions about who is heir are irrelevant. My point was more that Vlad has read Paarfi but Vlad != the masses, that what Vlad read != _TPG_ in all likelihood, and maybe other stuff which is anyway moot. On the side, one wonders if the Orb has its own House-detection module. The Cycle may not want a Yendi on the throne except when It says so. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 11:47:51 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:47:51 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 11:33 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Aliera doesn't really try to make any secret of the fact, however. (If so, >> why reveal such information in front of Vlad? Or Aibynn?) > >Joy's original question was: > > Is Aliera's maternity a secret? I've always wondered whether being > only half Dragon could have disqualified Aliera from being heir. > >Aliera didn't reveal anything to Vlad, did she? And Aibynn wouldn't be >listened to by anyone if he were inclined to blab. And Aliera isn't >the heir by that point, given the events of _Y_. Well, if we're only concerned about whether or not anyone knew this fact *while Aliera was heir*, and if this fact was likely to cause her to be removed in favor of someone else, I'd like to point out that Aliera didn't *want* to be heir. So wouldn't she have just revealed her full parentage in order to disqualify herself, if this would have made any difference? >On the side, one wonders if the Orb has its own House-detection module. >The Cycle may not want a Yendi on the throne except when It says so. It certainly seems to know who is of what House. Take the (possibly apocryphal) example of Jamiss I and Faarith I during the first cycle--where the Orb failed to save the Tsalmoth Jamiss' life from falling masonry, since the cycle had turned to Vallista. It is also implied elsewhere that the Orb failing to protect an emperor is a fairly common way of determining when a cycle has, in fact, changed. How could it do this if it were unable to tell what persons were of which houses? Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 11:58:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > >Joy's original question was: > > > > Is Aliera's maternity a secret? I've always wondered whether being > > only half Dragon could have disqualified Aliera from being heir. > > Well, if we're only concerned about whether or not anyone knew this fact > *while Aliera was heir*, and if this fact was likely to cause her to be > removed in favor of someone else, I'd like to point out that Aliera didn't > *want* to be heir. So wouldn't she have just revealed her full parentage > in order to disqualify herself, if this would have made any difference? She might at the time not want the information public, lest the J found out. She might not be able to prove it - she is likely genetically Dragon. > >On the side, one wonders if the Orb has its own House-detection module. > >The Cycle may not want a Yendi on the throne except when It says so. > > It certainly seems to know who is of what House. Take the (possibly > apocryphal) I certainly consider it apocryphal. > example of Jamiss I and Faarith I during the first cycle--where the Orb > failed to save the Tsalmoth Jamiss' life from falling masonry, since the > cycle had turned to Vallista. > > It is also implied elsewhere that the Orb failing to protect an emperor is > a fairly common way of determining when a cycle has, in fact, changed. This I rather doubt - the discussion in _FHYA_ would have ended abruptly if someone could just throw a rock at Tortaalik to see if the Orb would catch it. > How could it do this if it were unable to tell what persons were of which > houses? It can obviously tell who's emperor, which is all that's needed for the action described. My point was that it may consult a db maintained by the Houses to see who's next, or it may consult that and check for true Houseness. Presumably no House would want to get shown up by the Orb refusing their Heir and would take measures to prevent embarassment. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 12:27:10 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:27:10 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 11:58 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> *want* to be heir. So wouldn't she have just revealed her full parentage >> in order to disqualify herself, if this would have made any difference? > >She might at the time not want the information public, lest the J found >out. She might not be able to prove it - she is likely genetically >Dragon. You think the Dragon Council would let her be the heir without knowing who both her parents were? This certainly wasn't true for Norathar. Even the suggestion of doubt was enough to prompt an investigation. >> It certainly seems to know who is of what House. Take the (possibly >> apocryphal) > >I certainly consider it apocryphal. So did Paarfi, which is why I qualified it. >> example of Jamiss I and Faarith I during the first cycle--where the Orb >> failed to save the Tsalmoth Jamiss' life from falling masonry, since the >> cycle had turned to Vallista. >> >> It is also implied elsewhere that the Orb failing to protect an emperor is >> a fairly common way of determining when a cycle has, in fact, changed. > >This I rather doubt - the discussion in _FHYA_ would have ended abruptly >if someone could just throw a rock at Tortaalik to see if the Orb would >catch it. Who "throws the rock"? Who risks the executioner's star to find out if the cycle has changed? How does this person overcome the more mundane defenses (such as the Imperial Guards) to get at the emperor in the first place? What if they're wrong, and the cycle hasn't changed? While a Dragonlord like Adron or a Lyorn like Aerich may not care about their own deaths, they would certainly care about their honor; being branded a traitor would not appeal to either of them. The practicality of the test you suggest is highly questionable. Hence, we have discussion. >> How could it do this if it were unable to tell what persons were of which >> houses? > >It can obviously tell who's emperor, which is all that's needed for the >action described. My point was that it may consult a db maintained by >the Houses to see who's next, or it may consult that and check for true >Houseness. Presumably no House would want to get shown up by the Orb >refusing their Heir and would take measures to prevent embarassment. A subtle distinction here. Is it more important to the Orb that you are the heir of a specific House, or that your individual name is at the top of the list? Is the selection of the emperor the work of the Orb itself, or of the cycle? Or is it the cycle at work *through* the Orb? Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jun 15 12:35:19 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:35:19 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4491B677.40308@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >A subtle distinction here. Is it more important to the Orb that you are >the heir of a specific House, or that your individual name is at the top >of the list? Is the selection of the emperor the work of the Orb itself, >or of the cycle? Or is it the cycle at work *through* the Orb? > >Majikjon > > One advantage of the cycle is that every house gets its chance. But there are not bastard houses - what happens to cross-breeds? History shows that someone can become genetically part of a house. Do cross-breeds get this chance? Or do their parents decide what is the genetic makeup of their children? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 12:46:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:46:09 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: <4491B677.40308@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 12:35 PM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >One advantage of the cycle is that every house gets its chance. But >there are not bastard houses - what happens to cross-breeds? I thought the Jhereg *were* a bastard house? >History shows that someone can become genetically part of a house. Do >cross-breeds get this chance? Or do their parents decide what is the >genetic makeup of their children? Well, we know it's possible to *join* the Dzur (as Mellar did) or the Jhereg (Vlad, Kragar, Norathar, Mellar again) and presumably anyone can go be a Teckla (who'd want to?). But how does "history show" that someone can *genetically* become part of a house? (Other than the Jhereg, who are mongrels to start with, that is?) Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 12:47:00 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > >This I rather doubt - the discussion in _FHYA_ would have ended abruptly > >if someone could just throw a rock at Tortaalik to see if the Orb would > >catch it. > > Who "throws the rock"? Who risks the executioner's star to find out if the > cycle has changed? How does this person overcome the more mundane defenses > (such as the Imperial Guards) to get at the emperor in the first place? > What if they're wrong, and the cycle hasn't changed? While a Dragonlord > like Adron or a Lyorn like Aerich may not care about their own deaths, > they would certainly care about their honor; being branded a traitor would > not appeal to either of them. To stop a war? Of course Aerich would undertake that. Esp. since there would be a tradition to back him up. And esp. since (unless I'm mistaken) he doesn't think the Cycle has turned. Or Aliera. Or Sethra. Or maybe even Khaavren. > A subtle distinction here. Is it more important to the Orb that you are > the heir of a specific House, or that your individual name is at the top > of the list? Is the selection of the emperor the work of the Orb itself, > or of the cycle? Or is it the cycle at work *through* the Orb? Who knows? Which is why I asked. But you can look up the long discussion of "Cycle-Emperor" and "Orb-Emperor", some under my name, in the archives for a variety of viewpoints (and an attempt to make sense of the events at the end of _FHYA_). From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Thu Jun 15 12:47:40 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:47:40 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Philip Hart >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Multi-jointed fingers >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:58:52 -0700 (PDT) > > >She might not be able to prove it - she is likely genetically Dragon. > Are you forgetting that in Issola, Aliera was, presumably, able to "teleport" herself to Verra's Halls, or at least some place where she can communicate with Verra? If she could manage to convince Verra to appear before the Dragon Council, which I believe would be the truly hard part, and claim Aliera as her daughter, would the Council dare refute or question her word? She has a certain reputation, but Aliera would never lie about her parentage either, it's not honorable. And I use the "half-glimpsed" instance from Issola because it was Aliera's will, again presumably, that she be transported there and effected the change herself, compared to Pheonix (i believe?), where the transport was made with the aid of the music. Either way, if she knows a way to communicate with Verra (and dont forget about M's windows either...) and her parentage would get her out of being heir, I imagine she would tell the Council. As long as nothing that you noted comes up though, as you say she might have had her own reasons for holding that information back, including her honor at being removed as heir in that way From howard at brazee.net Thu Jun 15 13:03:26 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:03:26 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4491BD0E.7080005@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>One advantage of the cycle is that every house gets its chance. But >>there are not bastard houses - what happens to cross-breeds? > >I thought the Jhereg *were* a bastard house? > > Not necessarily inclusive for all Bastards. >>History shows that someone can become genetically part of a house. Do >>cross-breeds get this chance? Or do their parents decide what is the >>genetic makeup of their children? > >Well, we know it's possible to *join* the Dzur (as Mellar did) or the >Jhereg (Vlad, Kragar, Norathar, Mellar again) and presumably anyone can go >be a Teckla (who'd want to?). > > Yep. But we don't know what happens to their children. >But how does "history show" that someone can *genetically* become part of >a house? (Other than the Jhereg, who are mongrels to start with, that is?) > > > That's how the houses were formed in the first place. From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jun 15 13:09:04 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:09:04 -0400 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> This guy's a f*cking bigot. At 12:12 PM 6/14/2006, Shrenik Sanghvi wrote: >Check out this week's comics. As I type this, although the post is still >from Monday, the comic had already been updated. > >For the record, I've been through similar situations when attempting to >spread the joy. > >http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 13:34:37 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > This guy's a f*cking bigot. You might want to clarify your tone or cite some evidence... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 13:53:49 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:53:49 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4491BD0E.7080005@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 01:03 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >>Well, we know it's possible to *join* the Dzur (as Mellar did) or the >>Jhereg (Vlad, Kragar, Norathar, Mellar again) and presumably anyone can go >>be a Teckla (who'd want to?). >> >> >Yep. But we don't know what happens to their children. We don't? What about Vlad? It was his *father* that bought a title for himself in the Jhereg, and Vlad then inherited it. This says he's part of the house, and so are his descendants, etc etc. While it's less clear how the Dzur would handle it, I would think that the ability to defeat 17 heroes of the house in even combat would be enough to convince the Dzur Council that those are genes that they *want* to become part of the Dzur makeup. Presumably this sort of genetic mixing is the primary reason that Lyorn are so picky about not letting any outsiders in. Genetic purity, and all that. (This, IMO, does not speak especially well of the character of the Lyorn.) >>But how does "history show" that someone can *genetically* become part of >>a house? (Other than the Jhereg, who are mongrels to start with, that is?) >> >That's how the houses were formed in the first place. Well, the Jenoine had a pretty important hand in this, I would say. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Thu Jun 15 14:05:46 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:05:46 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) Message-ID: <4491CBAA.4020607@brazee.net> On 2:53 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >>Yep. But we don't know what happens to their children. > > > We don't? What about Vlad? It was his *father* that bought a title > for > himself in the Jhereg, and Vlad then inherited it. > > This says he's part of the house, and so are his descendants, etc > etc. I'm talking in the context of having a genetic test to prove someone a Dragon - or in this case, a Jhereg. > While it's less clear how the Dzur would handle it, I would think > that the > ability to defeat 17 heroes of the house in even combat would be > enough to > convince the Dzur Council that those are genes that they *want* to > become part of the Dzur makeup. Except in the one case we are familiar with, he is a member of multiple houses simultaneously. > Presumably this sort of genetic mixing is the primary reason that > Lyorn > are so picky about not letting any outsiders in. Genetic purity, and > all > that. (This, IMO, does not speak especially well of the character of > the Lyorn.) This isn't like our "races" on Earth, which are primarily cultural. These guys are subspecies, with genes of animals mixed in with their own genes - and genetically they have very real differences. Their pickyness may have biological reasons. Still, I'd like to know more about what happens to those who don't fit. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 14:07:15 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > We don't? What about Vlad? It was his *father* that bought a title for > himself in the Jhereg, and Vlad then inherited it. > > This says he's part of the house, and so are his descendants, etc etc. Dunno - the title might have been valid for heirs of his body (assuming that means immediate heirs) or might be otherwise defeasible. Vlad had access to the Orb before his father was killed, because the latter had hired a sorcerer to teach him, hence Vlad was already a citizen and not an inheritor of that status. Perhaps an Imperial title is heritable. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 14:13:37 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:13:37 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/15/06, S. Hall wrote: > Are you forgetting that in Issola, Aliera was, presumably, able to > "teleport" herself to Verra's Halls, or at least some place where she can > communicate with Verra? Are you quite certain of this memory? Because I am trying to recall this event, and failing. But then, I have misremembered before. Perhaps you have textev, or at least some context for where this is mentioned? > If she could manage to convince Verra to appear > before the Dragon Council, which I believe would be the truly hard part, and > claim Aliera as her daughter, would the Council dare refute or question her > word? She has a certain reputation, but Aliera would never lie about her > parentage either, it's not honorable. As I've said before, it must be the case that the question of Aliera's mother, and her specific legitimacy, was argued by *Adron* while Aliera was still an infant. Aas you say, quite possibly with Verra's direct testimony. Now that Aliera is an adult, the point is most certainly moot, as far as the Dragon Council is concerned. Although I do find myself wondering if perhaps Aliera's birth (and acceptance as a Dragon) might have had some influence on the Dragon Council deciding that perhaps the e'Lanya line of Dragons was a better choice for the Heir and Adron. Even if they accepted Aliera, there might have been a vague distrust of Verra and her motives that made the choice of changing the Heir just a bit easier. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 14:40:23 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:40:23 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 02:07 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) >On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> We don't? What about Vlad? It was his *father* that bought a title for >> himself in the Jhereg, and Vlad then inherited it. >> >> This says he's part of the house, and so are his descendants, etc etc. > >Dunno - the title might have been valid for heirs of his body (assuming >that means immediate heirs) or might be otherwise defeasible. Vlad had >access to the Orb before his father was killed, because the latter had >hired a sorcerer to teach him, hence Vlad was already a citizen and not >an inheritor of that status. > >Perhaps an Imperial title is heritable. Vlad makes a comment at one point about wearing his medallion of office, which he "hadn't worn since he had inherited it on the death of his father". Of course, in Vlad's case, since he now *does* have the Imperial Title, which is to be "...granted to all descendants and heirs of his body..." (Phoenix, pg 379 omnibus) he shouldn't have to worry about it, nor should VN. Majikjon From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 14:45:52 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > >Perhaps an Imperial title is heritable. > > Vlad makes a comment at one point about wearing his medallion of office, > which he "hadn't worn since he had inherited it on the death of his > father". Certainly he inherited the medallion... > > Of course, in Vlad's case, since he now *does* have the Imperial Title, > which is to be "...granted to all descendants and heirs of his body..." > (Phoenix, pg 379 omnibus) he shouldn't have to worry about it, nor should > VN. Assuming VN is ... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 15 14:49:20 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:49:20 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 02:45 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) >On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Philip Hart >> >Perhaps an Imperial title is heritable. >> >> Vlad makes a comment at one point about wearing his medallion of office, >> which he "hadn't worn since he had inherited it on the death of his >> father". > >Certainly he inherited the medallion... Are you suggesting his House would allow him to wear a medallion of an office he was not entitled to? Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 15 14:51:06 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:51:06 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <039201c690c5$ce1445f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Dunno - the title might have been valid for heirs of his body (assuming >that means immediate heirs) or might be otherwise defeasible. Vlad had >access to the Orb before his father was killed, because the latter had >hired a sorcerer to teach him, hence Vlad was already a citizen and not >an inheritor of that status. I'm having a bit of trouble parsing the above statements. It appears that you're suggesting that Vlad was a citizen because his father had someone teach him sorcery. The title came later. That isn't the case. If it was, then any Easterner could become a citizen without ever joining a House. Vlad's father bought the title. The title came with a link to the Orb for Taltos Sr. and all of his descendants. Maybe even for Noish-pa too, if he wanted it; who knows? At any rate, that link is what made it possible for Vlad to be a sorceror. The lessons were just a chance to learn HOW to do it. Without citizenship and the link to the Orb that goes with it, the only way you'll accomplish sorcery is by being an Elder Sorceror. >Perhaps an Imperial title is heritable. Probably. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 15:01:06 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > >On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > >> Philip Hart > >> >Perhaps an Imperial title is heritable. > >> > >> Vlad makes a comment at one point about wearing his medallion of > office, > >> which he "hadn't worn since he had inherited it on the death of his > >> father". > > > >Certainly he inherited the medallion... > > Are you suggesting his House would allow him to wear a medallion of an > office he was not entitled to? No, I'm suggesting that the title may have been valid for his heirs _at the time it was purchased_. That is, it may have been a license for Vlad's father and Vlad full stop. I.e., Vlad's children may not be included. Assuming Vlad didn't have any at the time the title was purchased. Which seems unlikely given his age at the time. The language you quote in reference to this particular Imperial title ("descendants and heirs") may suggest a distinction of that sort. The point being that the Jhereg would otherwise become essentially Easterner instantly (in Dragaeran terms). Which hasn't happened. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 15:06:42 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <039201c690c5$ce1445f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <039201c690c5$ce1445f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > >Dunno - the title might have been valid for heirs of his body (assuming > >that means immediate heirs) or might be otherwise defeasible. Vlad had > >access to the Orb before his father was killed, because the latter had > >hired a sorcerer to teach him, hence Vlad was already a citizen and not > >an inheritor of that status. > > I'm having a bit of trouble parsing the above statements. Note that "defeasible" means "may not be heritable under certain conditions", in this context at least. > It appears that you're suggesting that Vlad was a citizen because his > father had someone teach him sorcery. The title came later. I thought the sequence was buy title, hire tutor. The point being, Vlad was alive at the time the title was purchased. > The title came with a link to the Orb for Taltos Sr. and all of his > descendants. Says who? From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 15 15:24:50 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03db01c690ca$843c0f80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Says who? Says the Orb. Having a link is what it means to be a citizen. The title isn't even neccesary for that. It's just a rank of nobility. Once you're a citizen, your kids have the option to become citizens. Now, if you want to speculate that "naturalized" citizens have different rights than "native-born" citizens, you can do that but there's no textev for that position. Unless you can show differently, there's no reason to presume that Vlad's citizenship is any different than a Dragaeran's citizenship. The whole point of buying a title, after all, is to enjoy all the rights, ranks, and priveleges that accrue to a noble of that House. Heritability of rank is one of those priveleges, but even that doesn't really matter. A Teckla has the opportunity to be a citizen with no rank at all. Anyone can be a Teckla. All that it really takes is for someone with some minor bit of authority to say, "Yeah, okay, you're in the House." In any case, if you're going to propose that Vlad's title is an exception, then you have to show evidence. You can't just say "There's no evidence saying he's NOT an exception." From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 15:37:31 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <03db01c690ca$843c0f80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <03db01c690ca$843c0f80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > > >Says who? > > Says the Orb. Having a link is what it means to be a citizen. Now you get the point. > Once you're a citizen, your kids have the option to become citizens. Says who? > Now, if you want to speculate that "naturalized" citizens have different > rights than "native-born" citizens, you can do that but there's no textev > for that position. Incorrect - see earlier. From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 15 15:59:25 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:59:25 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >> Once you're a citizen, your kids have the option to become citizens. >Says who? Common sense if nothing else. It's clearly how Dragaeran society works. It's axiomatic. If we have to find some sort of textev to be convincing, then I'd recommend the re-emergence of the orb from the Paths of the Dead. Every Dragaeran alive, even those who had been born during the Interregnum, felt the pull of the Orb and were offered a choice to link or not. Children are clearly given a choice by the Orb itself. Does the Orb call to the child of a naturalized Easterner? Open question, but Citizenship is one of the rights and priveleges of being titled. Titles of nobility are clearly heritable under normal circumstances. Again, you have to show that titled Easterners are an exception, not challenge someone to prove that they're not. >> Now, if you want to speculate that "naturalized" citizens have different >> rights than "native-born" citizens, you can do that but there's no textev >> for that position. >Incorrect - see earlier. I'm afraid you'll have to quote it for me again, then. I don't see any such evidence when I "see earlier". Just a lot of speculation. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 16:22:02 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > >> Once you're a citizen, your kids have the option to become citizens. > >Says who? > > Common sense if nothing else. Says who? > Does the Orb call to the child of a naturalized Easterner? Open question, Fine. > Titles of nobility are clearly heritable under normal circumstances. > Again, you have to show that titled Easterners are an exception, not > challenge someone to prove that they're not. Sorry, but you don't get to decide what's privileged, or what's "normal circumstances" for that matter. And judging from the above you still don't even get my claim - which is that for all we know titles and citizenship of the sort Vlad's father bought aren't heritable. > >> Now, if you want to speculate that "naturalized" citizens have different > >> rights than "native-born" citizens, you can do that but there's no textev > >> for that position. > > >Incorrect - see earlier. > > I'm afraid you'll have to quote it for me again, then. I don't see any such > evidence when I "see earlier". Relative ease of purchase of title (Vlad's father not being rich). Lack of the Jhereg being all Easterner, as indicated by Vlad having met many Jhereg and only one other Easterner among them, and people being surprised to see him in House colors. All indications being that Easterners are fruitful and multiply. The simplest consequence of the above being lots of Eastern citizens, then nothing but. Same story for House Teckla. > Just a lot of speculation. Well, by that standard we hardly know anything. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jun 15 18:32:57 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 19:32:57 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <03db01c690ca$843c0f80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <03db01c690ca$843c0f80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <44920A49.2070807@brazee.net> Did Vlad's father buy his title from some impoverished nobleman? Can Vlad sell his title? Can the state take it away from him? From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Thu Jun 15 18:42:48 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:42:48 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Davdi Silverrock" >To: "Dragaera List" >Subject: Re: Multi-jointed fingers >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:13:37 -0700 > >Are you quite certain of this memory? Because I am trying to recall >this event, and failing. But then, I have misremembered before. >Perhaps you have textev, or at least some context for where this is >mentioned? > These results from issola14.html Score 4 at 33.2% in chapter issola14.html ? Aliera took two steps forward, one step to the side, and vanished as if she had stepped through an invisible doorway. She then appears later with Verra. I remember Loiosh making a comment like "There they are boss" and Vlad getting up and ready before he's told it's Verra and Aliera. While this is all assumed, it's the closest to textev i can manage. Im not exactly sure where else she would/could go and come back with Verra... From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 21:03:53 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:03:53 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/15/06, Philip Hart wrote: [ Regarding the Jhereg Baronetcy (as opposed to the Imperial Countship later received) applying only to Vlad's father and Vlad ] > > Relative ease of purchase of title (Vlad's father not being rich). Lack > of the Jhereg being all Easterner, as indicated by Vlad having met many > Jhereg and only one other Easterner among them, and people being surprised > to see him in House colors. All indications being that Easterners are > fruitful and multiply. The simplest consequence of the above being > lots of Eastern citizens, then nothing but. > I don't buy the part about "Easterner citizens multiplying until they take over the House", but in mulling it over, it did occur to me that there was another point in your argument's favor, that being the nature of House Jhereg. The Jhereg are not philanthopists; they're out to make money. Vlad is permitted to control his area as long as he keeps the money flowing in. By the same token, I can see the Jhereg specifying that the patent of nobility would be a strictly limited one. If Vlad wants Vlad N to be designated heir to the Baronetcy, it would make sense to the Jhereg to have him pay up to retain the title, just as sure as Teckla have to keep paying and paying to Jhereg lenders. On the other hand, I can see a point to the counter-argument about citizenship being retained once it's bought. The Jhereg don't care one way or another about that (as long as they get their money), so if the Orb links to Vlad's children, I can see them retaining that link even if they have no noble title to go with it. They would just be Jhereg, low-status members of a low-ranking House (which would be an incentive for them to purchase a title, of course). However, the point may well be moot, since I suspect that children inherit Orb links from their *mother*, and we ought to be wondering whether Cawti's title is a limited patent or a permanent one - and whether she might perhaps try and block her children inheriting the Orb link if she could, out of sheer antipathy to the Empire. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 21:19:36 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:19:36 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/15/06, S. Hall wrote: > > > Score 4 at 33.2% in chapter issola14.html > ? Aliera took two steps forward, one step to the side, and vanished as if > she had stepped through an invisible doorway. > > She then appears later with Verra. I remember Loiosh making a comment like > "There they are boss" and Vlad getting up and ready before he's told it's > Verra and Aliera. While this is all assumed, it's the closest to textev i > can manage. Im not exactly sure where else she would/could go and come back > with Verra... > OK, thanks for looking. I can see why I didn't remember that; it's rather brief, and her action is easily confused with an ordinary teleport. In addition, I re-read chapter 14 just now, and in support of Aliera having gone to Verra's Halls, I noticed a line a few pages later where Sethra tells Morrolan "if you would please reach your cousin when she becomes available" - and Aliera being unavailable to psychic contact at that time strongly implies that she is not anywhere in the normal Dragaeran Empire. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jun 15 21:42:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:42:02 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I don't buy the part about "Easterner citizens multiplying until they > take over the House", but in mulling it over, it did occur to me that An argument against this theory is it's only been 200 some years since the Interregnum--and no Easterner could buy titles into the Jhereg before that time. Sure, the Easterner's shorter lifespan, and more rapid rate of reproduction might prove to be a problem (eventually) given the comparitively slow rate of Dragaeran reproduction--but consider three important facts. 1) The Easterners have to compete in a Dragaeran society, and are at a severe disadvantage the entire time. 2) Only a handful of Easterners are likely to have bought titles by Vlad's time. Most can't (or won't) waste their money to buy a Jhereg title in the first place. 3) It's only been 7 or 8 Easterner generations since the first Easterners got Jhereg titles at all--which is not really enough time for this problem to become apparent to the Dragaerans. > there was another point in your argument's favor, that being the > nature of House Jhereg. > > The Jhereg are not philanthopists; they're out to make money. Vlad is > permitted to control his area as long as he keeps the money flowing > in. By the same token, I can see the Jhereg specifying that the > patent of nobility would be a strictly limited one. If Vlad wants > Vlad N to be designated heir to the Baronetcy, it would make sense to > the Jhereg to have him pay up to retain the title, just as sure as > Teckla have to keep paying and paying to Jhereg lenders. At the same time, the Jhereg, being out to make money, are more likely to want to use the members of their House to make money the way a fuedal society always makes money--not by contributing "renewal fees" for their titles, but rather, by taking the taxes that their Teckla pay, and giving them to the House. (Does Vlad get a portion of the crops grown by the Teckla in his Baronetcy? If so, the money from this likely gets "split with upstairs" before he sees a copper.) This is the way traditional feudal systems work--the Teckla do all the producing and the nobility take their cut of the produce for their own use. It doesn't make sense in this model for House Jhereg to alienate the tax-paying members of their own house by requiring each generation to "re-up" on their titles. I know of no real-world examples in which a title is given, and is allowed to pass one generation and no further. (Given the history of hereditary nobility on this planet, I see it as possible there *are* examples of this, but I haven't ever heard of any.) So it doesn't really seem like a very common way to do things. It is axiomatic that uncommon theories require uncommon proofs. (Or is that amazing theories and amazing proofs? I can't remember the adjective.) Either way, the statements at the end of /Phoenix/ leave little doubt in my mind that an Imperial Title is hereditary in perpetuity. > On the other hand, I can see a point to the counter-argument about > citizenship being retained once it's bought. The Jhereg don't care > one way or another about that (as long as they get their money), so if > the Orb links to Vlad's children, I can see them retaining that link > even if they have no noble title to go with it. They would just be > Jhereg, low-status members of a low-ranking House (which would be an > incentive for them to purchase a title, of course). I don't think it's possible to be a Jhereg without having a title. (Same with any noble house. They've all got titles of some form or other. That's what makes them "nobility".) A Jhereg with no title is a Teckla. Or worse. > > However, the point may well be moot, since I suspect that children > inherit Orb links from their *mother*, and we ought to be wondering > whether Cawti's title is a limited patent or a permanent one - and > whether she might perhaps try and block her children inheriting the > Orb link if she could, out of sheer antipathy to the Empire. I take it this is a theory with a biological rationale? That the gestating fetus in the mother's womb gets the link before birth? This brings up the whole side-issue of "What makes Dragaerans so special that they automatically get links to the Orb anyway?" It can't be genetic, else Easterners wouldn't be able to get links at all, and Dragaerans on Elde Island would have them (which they don't). No, it seems to be linked to whether or not each individual is entitled to citizenship. But how does the Orb know whether or not a person is entitled? There are countless Easterners in the Empire that do not have links. What is the mechanism for, say, Miklos, coming to live in Faerie as a Teckla, to let the Orb know that he gets a link? When Vlad's father buys a title in the Jhereg, how does the Jhereg who sold him the title let the Orb know that it's okay to let this Easterner (and, presumably his descendants) have a link? Majikjon From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jun 15 21:43:54 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:43:54 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4492370A.3050505@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > In addition, I re-read chapter 14 just now, and in support of Aliera > having gone to Verra's Halls, I noticed a line a few pages later where > Sethra tells Morrolan "if you would please reach your cousin when she > becomes available" - and Aliera being unavailable to psychic contact > at that time strongly implies that she is not anywhere in the normal > Dragaeran Empire. Or, possibly, she was just in her room alone with Mario, and didn't want to be disturbed. One never knows. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 22:55:19 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 22:55:19 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/15/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I don't buy the part about "Easterner citizens multiplying until they > > take over the House", but in mulling it over, it did occur to me that > An argument against this theory is it's only been 200 some years since > the Interregnum--and no Easterner could buy titles into the Jhereg > before that time. And possibly even sometime after that (the policy of allowing sale to Easterners was added by the Demon, at some point in his career). Hm. I stumbled upon textev for the Demon: "showed up in Adrilankha about a hundred and fifty years ago selling Jhereg titles to Easterners" [snip stuff I agree with] > > there was another point in your argument's favor, that being the > > nature of House Jhereg. > > > > The Jhereg are not philanthopists; they're out to make money. Vlad is > > permitted to control his area as long as he keeps the money flowing > > in. By the same token, I can see the Jhereg specifying that the > > patent of nobility would be a strictly limited one. If Vlad wants > > Vlad N to be designated heir to the Baronetcy, it would make sense to > > the Jhereg to have him pay up to retain the title, just as sure as > > Teckla have to keep paying and paying to Jhereg lenders. [ feudalism ] > > It doesn't make sense in this model for House Jhereg to alienate the > tax-paying members of their own house by requiring each generation to > "re-up" on their titles. But I can definitely see the Jhereg instituting special rules for Teckla and Easterners who want to join the House fresh - whom they wouldn't care about alienating, just about squeezing for money. And if the Easterners don't like being squeezed, they can just swear fealty to someone and be Teckla. > I know of no real-world examples in which a title is given, and is > allowed to pass one generation and no further. I believe that the suggestion was not that the title passed "one generation and no further", but rather, was purchased for the both of them. And a couple of trivia points: Knighthoods are not usually inheritable - but according to Wikipedia, the title "baronet" was specifically created as an inheritable knighthood. So there's that. > > Either way, the statements at the end of /Phoenix/ leave little doubt in > my mind that an Imperial Title is hereditary in perpetuity. The Imperial Title is understood to be permanent from the textev, and was not the subject of the debate. > > On the other hand, I can see a point to the counter-argument about > > citizenship being retained once it's bought. The Jhereg don't care > > one way or another about that (as long as they get their money), so if > > the Orb links to Vlad's children, I can see them retaining that link > > even if they have no noble title to go with it. They would just be > > Jhereg, low-status members of a low-ranking House (which would be an > > incentive for them to purchase a title, of course). > I don't think it's possible to be a Jhereg without having a title. (Same > with any noble house. They've all got titles of some form or other. > That's what makes them "nobility".) I disagree. Textev: (Paresh speaking, in /Teckla/:) 'Of all of the "Noble Houses" [...] there are only a few which contain any of the aristocracy, and then only a few of that House.' > A Jhereg with no title is a Teckla. Or worse. Nope, just a Jhereg. > > > > However, the point may well be moot, since I suspect that children > > inherit Orb links from their *mother*, and we ought to be wondering > > whether Cawti's title is a limited patent or a permanent one - and > > whether she might perhaps try and block her children inheriting the > > Orb link if she could, out of sheer antipathy to the Empire. > I take it this is a theory with a biological rationale? That the > gestating fetus in the mother's womb gets the link before birth? Paarfi, in tLoCB: "Where between conception and birth falls the moment when the Orb insinuates itself from a mother who is a citizen to an infant who is to become one? We cannot, in this brief work, take the time to explore this question with the thoroughness it deserves, so we will say only that it seems to be the case that the connection comes somewhere toward the end of the mother's term of pregnancy." > It can't be genetic, else Easterners wouldn't be able to get links at > all, and Dragaerans on Elde Island would have them (which they don't). > No, it seems to be linked to whether or not each individual is entitled > to citizenship. But how does the Orb know whether or not a person is > entitled? Note how Piro and Ibronka, et al, received Orb links: They swore fealty to Zerika, and it just worked. It may be a sneaky secret that getting an Orb link is as simple as that, and the reason that Easterners in the Empire don't get links is simply because they are disinclined to swear fealty, and/or because they don't realize how simple it is. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Thu Jun 15 22:57:34 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 22:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: > An argument against this theory is it's only been 200 some years since > the Interregnum--and no Easterner could buy titles into the Jhereg > before that time. I'd guesstimate all Easterners in Adrilankha would now be citizens if 1% of the first generation bought titles and were able to pass on their citizenship, assuming no influx of non-citizens from the East and no competitive advantage of a link to the Orb. Let's throw in a factor of ten down for the influx and a factor of two up for the link (at low densities, a link might provide large competitive advantages, at high densities the psionic network alone would be very valuable - one might seek a citizen mate for that alone). Let's then guess that <1:10k Easterners in A. are citizens - I get, uhh, 1:200k citizens early. And really it should be much less since obviously people in subsequent generations joined the Jhereg. Pretty bad business model if so. Or one could say there are 1:1k E-citizens now, suggesting that in a mere 200 years (eight generations) there will be only E-citizens... Maybe there are Dragaerans who hunt down Easterners with links and suppress the infection rate. But of course we would likely have heard about that if it were common. I can see complicated arguments about wealth in such a competitive environment reflecting good genes or skills that could be taught to one's children, leading to a greater transmission rate - or the opposite. Perhaps someone with the proper expertise could do an evolutionary model and produce more sensible limits. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 23:02:29 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:02:29 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: <4492370A.3050505@comcast.net> References: <4492370A.3050505@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/15/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > In addition, I re-read chapter 14 just now, and in support of Aliera > > having gone to Verra's Halls, I noticed a line a few pages later where > > Sethra tells Morrolan "if you would please reach your cousin when she > > becomes available" - and Aliera being unavailable to psychic contact > > at that time strongly implies that she is not anywhere in the normal > > Dragaeran Empire. > Or, possibly, she was just in her room alone with Mario, and didn't want > to be disturbed. > > One never knows. > *snort* It's the cataclysmic battle between the gods and the Jenoine, and Aliera's been tasked by *the* Sethra Lavode to get the gods into battle positions - and she's going to stop for a quick boink??? From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Thu Jun 15 23:25:34 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 02:25:34 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Davdi Silverrock" >To: "Dragaera List" >Subject: Re: Multi-jointed fingers >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:02:29 -0700 > >It's the cataclysmic battle between the gods and the Jenoine, and >Aliera's been tasked by *the* Sethra Lavode to get the gods into >battle positions - and she's going to stop for a quick boink??? sure if i'm about to die by a legendary "creature" who rivals my mother, a Goddess no-less, I'd wanna get a quick boink in before I hit up the battlefield :P or well, possibly dying From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 16 05:54:26 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:54:26 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) Message-ID: <4492AA02.1000007@brazee.net> On 6/15/2006 11:55 PM Davdi Silverrock wrote: > And a couple of trivia points: Knighthoods are not usually inheritable > - but according to Wikipedia, the title "baronet" was specifically > created as an inheritable knighthood. So there's that. In a society where a generation lasts as long as many of our dynasties, this might not be something that concerns the powers that be. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 06:18:23 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:18:23 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <44920A49.2070807@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 06:32 PM To Dragaera cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) >Did Vlad's father buy his title from some impoverished nobleman? It is implied he bought it directly from some powerful Jhereg representative who did not give up his own title in the process (see the remarks between Kragar and Vlad in /Jhereg/ where Vlad asks if the Demon might have been the one who sold his father his title.) > Can Vlad sell his title? Hm. Unlikely, since the terms it was bought under is likely to make it non-transferrable, but I know of no textev either way on this one. >Can the state take it away from him? Almost certainly. In cases of Leze Majesty, for example, this is a fairly common punishment. This likely applies to *all* titles, however, not just the Jhereg ones. If I had to guess, I'd say there are likely hundreds of little baronetcys and baronys out there that are owned by "House Jhereg" without any particular lord to govern them (there are many vacancies left over from the Interregnum). This is likely what the Jhereg are selling to Easterners. Of course, even if they ran out of these, they could probably arrange for landless titles at the same prices. (Wanna be the Duke of Galstan? on 20,000 Imperials! Galstan? Where's that?) There's no limit to the number of places you could invent titles for. Majikjon From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 06:37:13 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 09:37:13 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2be528100606160637h180f5d05q9831bdc4207f33e0@mail.gmail.com> > I don't think it's possible to be a Jhereg without having a title. (Same > with any noble house. They've all got titles of some form or other. > That's what makes them "nobility".) I'm not sure on that. We have the title DragonLord or HawkLord, but not all members of those houses are refered to as such. Take, for example, the foot soldiers in Dragon. I don't think that any of them were ever refered to as a DragonLord, suggesting to me that they may not have any titles. Also, consider Khavren (in TPG). His family has a traditional title, but they had lost their lands and their titles, as best I remember. **** minor TPG spoilers here *** Or Tanzendra, also in TPG. She had renounced her family name and title. No one seemed especially disturbed by the idea of a title-less Dzor. Or by Aerich without a title, since his family had been discredited. It seems to me that being a Noble House means that the house has some nobility, not that every member of the house is a noble. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 06:38:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:38:09 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 10:55 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) >On 6/15/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> It doesn't make sense in this model for House Jhereg to alienate the >> tax-paying members of their own house by requiring each generation to >> "re-up" on their titles. > >But I can definitely see the Jhereg instituting special rules for >Teckla and Easterners who want to join the House fresh - whom they >wouldn't care about alienating, just about squeezing for money. > >And if the Easterners don't like being squeezed, they can just swear >fealty to someone and be Teckla. Well, making the title non-inheritable would make the whole prospect a lot less attractive to the potential buyer. Perhaps they sell both kinds, and the non-inheritable ones are at markdown prices? In this case, I would suspect Vlad's Father of springing for the more expensive kind, given that his concern was as much for his son to be "Dragaeran" as for himself. You don't make money by driving away business, though, and telling Easterners that if they don't like the terms they can go be Teckla is going to alienate a potential market of title buyers, thereby not *allowing* the Jhereg to squeeze money from them. >I believe that the suggestion was not that the title passed "one >generation and no further", but rather, was purchased for the both of >them. Okay. Kinda like Vlad's father bought a Peerage for both of them? But in this case, why was the medallion of office "inherited" by Vlad? He should have already had one of his own. >And a couple of trivia points: Knighthoods are not usually inheritable >- but according to Wikipedia, the title "baronet" was specifically >created as an inheritable knighthood. So there's that. Interesting, and applicable, I would say. >I disagree. Textev: (Paresh speaking, in /Teckla/:) 'Of all of the >"Noble Houses" [...] there are only a few which contain any of the >aristocracy, and then only a few of that House.' > >> A Jhereg with no title is a Teckla. Or worse. > >Nope, just a Jhereg. Ah, but "aristocracy" does not mean all people with titles--it means landed gentry who don't have to work. In the text you cited part of, for example, Paresh says that basically the Lyorn, Dragons, and Dzur have all the aristocrats. Fine. But we've met dozens of Issola, Orca, Jhereg, Vallista, and other House members who have titles, but are not aristocrats. This doesn't mean they're all land-holders. Quite the opposite, Paresh comments on which houses use empty titles and which ones always have land attached, how the Lyorn use "knight" for all landless gentry. Khaavren can still use the title "Marquis", even though his land was sold back to the empire a millenium ago. >Paarfi, in tLoCB: "Where between conception and birth falls the moment >when the Orb insinuates itself from a mother who is a citizen to an >infant who is to become one? We cannot, in this brief work, take the >time to explore this question with the thoroughness it deserves, so we >will say only that it seems to be the case that the connection comes >somewhere toward the end of the mother's term of pregnancy." Well, Paarfi's not a doctor or sorcerer, so far as we know, so his speculations on this are extremely suspect. Still, it seems reasonable enough that I'm not going to disagree with it. >Note how Piro and Ibronka, et al, received Orb links: They swore >fealty to Zerika, and it just worked. > >It may be a sneaky secret that getting an Orb link is as simple as >that, and the reason that Easterners in the Empire don't get links is >simply because they are disinclined to swear fealty, and/or because >they don't realize how simple it is. Well, given that the Orb is a reliable lie-detector, it may simply be that when a person tries to contact it, it determines from the person's own mind whether or not they truly believe they are entitled to a link, and if so, allows them in. This would keep out Easterners in general who *know* they're not supposed to have links without becoming Teckla or buying titles in the Jhereg. But once they *do* believe they're entitled, the link is just there. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 06:49:38 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:49:38 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 10:57 PM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Jon Lincicum wrote: >I'd guesstimate all Easterners in Adrilankha would now be citizens if 1% >of the first generation bought titles and were able to pass on their >citizenship, assuming no influx of non-citizens from the East and no >competitive advantage of a link to the Orb. Let's throw in a factor of >ten down for the influx and a factor of two up for the link (at low >densities, a link might provide large competitive advantages, at high >densities the psionic network alone would be very valuable - one might >seek a citizen mate for that alone). Let's then guess that <1:10k >Easterners in A. are citizens - I get, uhh, 1:200k citizens early. >And really it should be much less since obviously people in subsequent >generations joined the Jhereg. Pretty bad business model if so. 1) I would say 1% of the Easterner population is too high a figure. 2) The influx of Easterners into the Empire in general, and Adrilankha in particular is ongoing. Right after the Interregnum ended their numbers were likely much lower than at Vlad's time. There may have only been a few dozen Easterners in Adrilankha right at the end of the Interregnum, and the number by Vlad's time is likely between 10,000-20,000. 3) In order for the difference in reproduction rates to matter, it is important that all the Easterners have more than 2 children apiece. If not, then the numbers simply stay the same. (Or even decline.) 4) Joining the Jhereg is *expensive*. Vlad's Father ran a sucessful restaurant in a good part of town, and catered to nobility. Even then, it took him 20-30 years of working to scrape enough together *just* to afford the title. Basically, he dedicated his entire life to this one end (which ended up killing him, since he couldn't afford even basic sorcerous medical attention after he blew his wad). How many Easterners are really going to have his his means to earn money, and his dedication to that single goal? I would say not more than 2-3 every seventeen years. This is hardly going to matter in a population of Easterners numbering in the thousands. Not for a while, anyway. >Maybe there are Dragaerans who hunt down Easterners with links and >suppress the infection rate. But of course we would likely have heard >about that if it were common. This might happen if the trends continue. Lynchings, a Dragaeran KKK of some kind (likely populated by Orca, I would say), "citizenship tests" where the person taking the test fails if they're under six foot six. >I can see complicated arguments about wealth in such a competitive >environment reflecting good genes or skills that could be taught to >one's children, leading to a greater transmission rate - or the opposite. >Perhaps someone with the proper expertise could do an evolutionary >model and produce more sensible limits. Really, the best method for combating the problem you describe would simply to limit inheritance of the title to the eldest child of the title purchaser. The number of titles would thereby stay completely constant, no matter how plentiful the Easterners become. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 06:51:25 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:51:25 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/15/06 11:02 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >On 6/15/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> Or, possibly, she was just in her room alone with Mario, and didn't want >> to be disturbed. >> >> One never knows. >> > >*snort* > >It's the cataclysmic battle between the gods and the Jenoine, and >Aliera's been tasked by *the* Sethra Lavode to get the gods into >battle positions - and she's going to stop for a quick boink??? To the right, if I thought the world was going to end, I'd want a chance to say goodbye to *my* loved ones. To the left, it's possible I was not being entirely serious. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 06:59:05 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 06:59:05 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <2be528100606160637h180f5d05q9831bdc4207f33e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Joy Nicholson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/16/06 06:37 AM To "Jon Lincicum" cc Dragaera List Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) > I don't think it's possible to be a Jhereg without having a title. (Same > with any noble house. They've all got titles of some form or other. > That's what makes them "nobility".) >I'm not sure on that. We have the title DragonLord or HawkLord, but >not all members of those houses are refered to as such. Take, for >example, the foot soldiers in Dragon. I don't think that any of them >were ever refered to as a DragonLord, suggesting to me that they may >not have any titles. Interesting points. As a counter example, look at the Orca. All Orca on ships in the Empire are given titles commesurate with their ranks, so that a Duke never ends up serving under a Baron. It follows that all Orca (except perhaps the lowest level of deckhands) have titles of some kind to indicate their superiority over someone else onboard ship. Since all Orca serve on ships for some part of the year as a service to their House, this means that almost all Orca will have titles of some kind. If the Orca can do this, why can't the other Houses? >Also, consider Khavren (in TPG). His family has a traditional title, >but they had lost their lands and their titles, as best I remember. Khaavren continued to use "Marquis" since (as Aerich pointed out) despite the land being sold back to the Empire, it was still vacant, thus he was still entitled to use it. This does, however, imply that if the title was NOT vacant, that he wouldn't have a title to use. Which I suppose would indeed make him a title-less Tiassa. >It seems to me that being a Noble House means that the house has some >nobility, not that every member of the house is a noble. I'm nearly convinced this is possible. It still remains an open question as to how common a situation this is, however. (Especially with all the invented empty titles that are floating around...) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 16 07:20:21 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:20:21 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) Message-ID: <4492BE25.1040202@brazee.net> On 7:38 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > You don't make money by driving away business, though, and telling > Easterners that if they don't like the terms they can go be Teckla is > going to alienate a potential market of title buyers, thereby not > *allowing* the Jhereg to squeeze money from them. On the other hand, you follow the De Beers model of maintaining scarcity of something you can sell for a big profit. Commoners are common, so nobility has to be rare. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 16 09:16:23 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 09:16:23 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ca301c69160$36791270$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Sorry, but you don't get to decide what's privileged, or what's "normal >circumstances" for that matter. >And judging from the above you still don't even get my claim - which is >that for all we know titles and citizenship of the sort Vlad's father >bought aren't heritable. On the contrary, I understand the claim perfectly. "For all we know" isn't anything you can work with; it's speculation. For all we know, Vlad Norathar is a duck. Can you prove that he's not? If you say "normal human genetics don't allow for ducks as offspring" and I say "who are you to decide what normal genetics are in a fantasy world where magic is somehow related to genetics?" are you going to think me a reasonable person? Steve is the one who decides "normal circumstances". If there's an example of a Dragaeran child of a noble family (who was not a half-breed like Grita or an outcast like Kragar, and we don't even really know Kragar's situation) who did not inherit his family's title, then I haven't seen it. If you can provide such, then that's the text evidence I requested. If no such evidence exists, then it's up to the person claiming that Eastern titles are somehow different to show evidence how they are different. Some things ARE axiomatic, because the cycle of stories assumes them as part of its background. We can't expect Steve to justify and explain every little thing about the society he's writing about. We'd end up with the appendices to the _Lord of the Rings_ instead of Vlad story. It's a feudal society, with many examples of titles being inherited through the family. Barring some sort of exception being noted in the stories, there's no good reason to believe that Jhereg titles are any different. In fact, it's noted in _Teckla_ that Jhereg titles are actually "landed" titles. Vlad has an actual baronetcy consisting of essentially a small city block with four families on it. The point being that there are examples showing that Jhereg titles, aside from being for sale, are like other titles while no such text evidence exists showing the contrary. >Relative ease of purchase of title (Vlad's father not being rich). Lack >of the Jhereg being all Easterner, as indicated by Vlad having met many >Jhereg and only one other Easterner among them, and people being surprised >to see him in House colors. All indications being that Easterners are >fruitful and multiply. The simplest consequence of the above being >lots of Eastern citizens, then nothing but. These are not text evidence, which is why I termed them speculation. Are they good supporting evidence for the idea of limited titles? Maybe. I'd question some of your assumptions. Taltos Sr., for instance, was well-to-do for an Easterner. That's why he was able to buy a title even though doing so broke him. The average Easterner doesn't have the means. Moreover, titles are a bad investment. Citizenship, in and of itself, doesn't get you anything but a link to the Orb. It's as silly and as expensive as an American buying an English knighthood. As Vlad prosaically puts it, his father blew their life savings so that Vlad could always know the exact time. Vlad's power and privelege comes from being a successful member of the Organization, not from being a titled member of House Jhereg. Being a Baronet means exactly squat, especially when the title can be revoked by the Council for whatever reason they might see fit. The odds of there ever being more than a few Eastern Jhereg at a time would seem to be pretty high against, especially when they run into prejudice on both sides of the fence for "getting uppity" or "putting on airs" depending upon your viewpoint. Rather than overrunning the House, I'd guess based on Vlad's experience that the average Eastern Jhereg family doesn't survive more than a couple of generations before being wiped out or re-absorbed into the mainstream of Eastern slum culture. >Same story for House Teckla. House Teckla is a different story entirely, since they apparently accept anyone who wants to join. There's no title to inherit and even if the child of an Easterner didn't automatically get Citizenship, she'd be able to claim it just by swearing fealty the same way her parents did. Technically, House Teckla really could be overrun by Easterners in a few generations if, say all of the Easterners in Adrilankha joined up en masse and the House representatives allowed it to happen. Apparently, though, it's not an attractive proposition even for an Easterner living hand-to-mouth in the slums of Adrilankha, or else it's not really as simple as all that. (The local Lord might have to approve things based on whether he actually can support more peasants on his lands, for instance.)Considering that Teckla make up the vast majority of the population I'd wager that it would take quite a while before anyone started worrying about Easterners outnumbering Dragaerans in the House. From shawnb at stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 10:17:48 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 10:17:48 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <0ca301c69160$36791270$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <20060616171803.C6260E93E8@gw.dd-b.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > In fact, it's noted in _Teckla_ that > Jhereg titles are actually "landed" titles. Vlad has an > actual baronetcy consisting of essentially a small city block > with four families on it. I'm confused by the way you put this. Vlad's title is to a patch of land somewhere, that has a few families on it (we know this from his conversation with Paresh in Teckla); maybe you didn't mean to imply that his title was to a city block. When I first read this I thought you were associating Vlad's title with his "area", and that's just not right. > Being a Baronet means exactly squat, especially when the > title can be revoked by the Council for whatever reason they > might see fit. Being a Baronet, if I recall correctly, also allowed Vlad to join "the business end of House Jhereg". Joining the House at all got him citizenship and his link; but his title permits him to work for the House. Presumably, one can be a member of House Jhereg and not be on the business end (else why the distinction between "business end" and not?), which would further imply that not every member of House Jhereg has a title, since Vlad claims that it's his title that got him this gig. Unless it's the degree of nobility one has (a Baronet and upwards) that permits one to join the business end; everyone else being the equivalent of landless nobility, wandering knights of larceny, instead of running areas themselves. Does Melestav have a title? Sticks? Glowbug? I vote "no". So I vote "not every Jhereg has a title". Maybe it's only required of those wishing to join the House that they join as nobility. Shawn From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Jun 16 10:24:24 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 13:24:24 -0400 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060616132340.026105e0@cox.net> At 04:34 PM 6/15/2006, Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > This guy's a f*cking bigot. > > >You might want to clarify your tone or cite some evidence... He says he doesn't read dragon books, with no other qualification. That's bigotry. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 16 11:03:05 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:03:05 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <20060616171803.C6260E93E8@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <0ed501c6916f$1e809b20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >maybe you didn't mean to imply that his title was to >a city block. When I first read this I thought you >were associating Vlad's title with his "area", and that's >just not right. No, I was comparing the size of it. I suppose it could be a couple of acres, since we don't really know more than the number of people living on it. I've just always imagined it to be a few house lots and not much more. I wouldn't be very surprised if it actually was a city block someplace that the House charged rent on. >So I vote "not every Jhereg has a title". I'd say that's almost certainly true. >Maybe it's only required of those wishing to join the House >that they join as nobility. Maybe. We don't really know how Kragar joined The Organization, for instance. There's never been any hint that he has a Jhereg title. Aliera even seems to sneer at him for being a disgraced Dragon rather than for being a Jhereg. I'd imagine that you can end up working for The Organization without actually being an "official" member of House Jhereg. You don't see many Easterners in The Organization for the same reason you don't see Teckla: They are the Jhereg's natural prey. It's true that Vlad's title greased a few wheels as far as his entry into The Organization, but I think it's fair to say that Kiera should take most of the credit for that. Your typical honest social-climbin Easterner buying a title would be content, probably even happy, to have nothing at all to do with the business end of the House. I can't imagine that Taltos, Sr. had a career as a "workman" in mind for his son when he bought the title. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 11:12:36 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <0ca301c69160$36791270$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0ca301c69160$36791270$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > then it's up to the person claiming that Eastern titles are somehow > different to show evidence how they are different. They're granted to Easterners, not Dragaerans, by the Jhereg. QED. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Jun 16 11:16:09 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:16:09 -0700 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060616132340.026105e0@cox.net> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060616132340.026105e0@cox.net> Message-ID: <4492F569.2080402@Sun.COM> Peter H. Granzeau wrote On 06/16/06 10:24,: > He says he doesn't read dragon books, with no other qualification. > That's bigotry. Really? I'd have thought that merely poor taste. He also states he only reads Star Wars books and, when those aren't available, books that looks Star Warsy. Again, a severe lack of what I would consider good taste (and I've read some Star Wars books myself, thanks), but I wouldn't consider it bigotry. (Though I suppose I could go with "stupidity", and offer him a copy of "Peace" or "Poor Things", or even "Why People Believe Weird Things".) Feh. :) Chris From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 11:14:57 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <4492369A.6050302@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Vlad N Shouldn't that be Vlad N+1? From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 16 11:24:33 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:24:33 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) Message-ID: <4492F761.3040606@brazee.net> On 12:03 PM Scott Schultz wrote: > It's true that Vlad's title greased a few wheels as far as his entry > into > The Organization, but I think it's fair to say that Kiera should take > most > of the credit for that. Your typical honest social-climbin Easterner > buying > a title would be content, probably even happy, to have nothing at all > to do > with the business end of the House. I can't imagine that Taltos, Sr. > had a > career as a "workman" in mind for his son when he bought the title. Historically, titles meant more than one might think. Even evidence of being gentry counted. I believe that Beethoven almost won a court case (custody?) until the court discovered that his "van" didn't mean the same "von" that the court thought it meant. With a lower rank, he didn't have as many rights. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 11:28:34 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: <046401c690cf$593a2290$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/15/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > [ Regarding the Jhereg Baronetcy (as opposed to the Imperial Countship > later received) applying only to Vlad's father and Vlad ] > > > > > Relative ease of purchase of title (Vlad's father not being rich). Lack > > of the Jhereg being all Easterner, as indicated by Vlad having met many > > Jhereg and only one other Easterner among them, and people being surprised > > to see him in House colors. All indications being that Easterners are > > fruitful and multiply. The simplest consequence of the above being > > lots of Eastern citizens, then nothing but. > > > > I don't buy the part about "Easterner citizens multiplying until they > take over the House" [...] Perhpas I'll reconsider. But I can well imagine the Demon going to the council and saying, "Hey, we can milk the barbarians for a few orbs by selling them titles, wanna let me do the distasteful work?" and the council responding, "Sure, just don't let it pass down to their future norska-warrens of descendents or else we'll have the Empire down on us, esp. those damned Lyorn." And the Demon saying, "Oh of course, I'll get the next generation with a re-up fee. Maybe we can make our Easterner wholesalers join the business if they want to keep us happy." (Relatedly, do we know anything about Easterners working on the edges of the Jhereg?) The primogeniture rule suggested above also works for me. Related - I seem to recall that Savn (or his family) do small spells as part of their daily life - casting light for evening harvesting, for example. Do we see him (them) make use of psionic contact? I'm wondering how much of a selection advantage having a link gives. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 11:33:58 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4492F761.3040606@brazee.net> References: <4492F761.3040606@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Howard Brazee wrote: > Historically, titles meant more than one might think. > > Even evidence of being gentry counted. > > I believe that Beethoven almost won a court case (custody?) until the > court discovered that his "van" didn't mean the same "von" that the > court thought it meant. With a lower rank, he didn't have as many rights. As with the ecclesiastical courts. I've been wondering if the Easterners use the Dragaeran legal system, say over the right to sell imperial corn in South A. One might be able to resolve one's side of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce by buying a title... From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 11:39:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:39:34 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/16/06 11:28 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) >Perhpas I'll reconsider. But I can well imagine the Demon going to the >council and saying, "Hey, we can milk the barbarians for a few orbs by >selling them titles, wanna let me do the distasteful work?" and the >council responding, "Sure, just don't let it pass down to their future >norska-warrens of descendents or else we'll have the Empire down on us, >esp. those damned Lyorn." And the Demon saying, "Oh of course, I'll >get the next generation with a re-up fee. Maybe we can make our >Easterner wholesalers join the business if they want to keep us happy." Not unreasonable. Yet the concept of the Demon needing to go ask the council for permission to do something doesn't really jive very well with Kragar's account of how the Demon rose to power (killing two of the three surviving council members, then "getting somewhere and declaring the top to be where he was"). >(Relatedly, do we know anything about Easterners working on the edges >of the Jhereg?) I think the only example we have of anyone working for the Jhereg on a straight free-lance basis is Mellar in the early days, before he tried to join the house of Dzur. This is not an especially helpful example, however. >Related - I seem to recall that Savn (or his family) do small spells >as part of their daily life - casting light for evening harvesting, >for example. Do we see him (them) make use of psionic contact? >I'm wondering how much of a selection advantage having a link gives. At one point in /Athyra/, Vlad takes Savn out into the woods and teaches him to make psionic contact--and it's something he seems unfamiliar with (but, is obviously capable of, since Vlad teaches it to him). My guess, then, is that while the ability is there, (confirming what Aliera relates to Vlad in chapter 9 of /Jhereg/) Teckla don't generally get the training needed to use it. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 11:48:54 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:48:54 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/16/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" > > > > >On 6/15/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> > >> Or, possibly, she was just in her room alone with Mario, and didn't > >> want to be disturbed. > >> > >> One never knows. > >> > > > >*snort* > > > >It's the cataclysmic battle between the gods and the Jenoine, and > >Aliera's been tasked by *the* Sethra Lavode to get the gods into > >battle positions - and she's going to stop for a quick boink??? > > To the right, if I thought the world was going to end, I'd want a chance > to say goodbye to *my* loved ones. > > To the left, it's possible I was not being entirely serious. > Heh. Well, there is something to what you say. But on reflection, it occurs to me that this was a perfect opportunity for Aliera to meet up with, not Mario, but Kieron... ALIERA and VERRA appear before the GODS in the Halls of Judgment: ALIERA: Awright ya mugs, get yer thumbs out of your butts, get yer arses in gear, the Jenoine are here, and it's time to rise and shine and killinator them!!! GODS: ... VERRA: Aliera, dear, why don't you let me handle this? ALIERA: Yeah, fine, go ahead, I was never much for the talking. ALIERA finds a PURPLE ROBE. ALIERA: Hey, purple robe person, take me to Kieron. PURPLE ROBE silently leads the way to Kieron's chamber. ALIERA (to PURPLE ROBE): Thanks. Now get lost. ALIERA taunts KIERON about him not joining in the cataclysmic battle between the gods and the Jenoine. KIERON asks about his sword. ALIERA gloats about trading it for Pathfinder. ALIERA draws Pathfinder and shows it off to KIERON. KIERON gets huffy about ALIERA trading away his sword. Badinage occurs, insults are traded, sparks fly. KIERON pauses to admire ALIERA's beauty when she is incensed. Other strong emotions come to the fore to replace the rage. There is a steamy kiss, followed by groping & tearing off of clothes. * * * * * * * [ Boinking goes here ] * * * * * * * VERRA appears. VERRA: Oi! Aliera, can we please get on with it? In case you hadn't noticed it, there's a war on, and we are rolling NOW! VERRA disappears. ALIERA and KIERON blush mightily. There is an embarrassed silence while they dress, and Aliera straps Pathfinder back on. KIERON: So. ALIERA: So. KIERON: I think I am well recompensed for my sword. ALIERA: Yeah, I figured that it must have been a couple hundred millenia since you had a good lay. ALIERA departs from KIERON, perhaps with some vague words regarding conversing again at some point in the future. And so on and so forth. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 11:53:04 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Philip Hart > > Not unreasonable. Yet the concept of the Demon needing to go ask the > council for permission to do something doesn't really jive very well with > Kragar's account of how the Demon rose to power (killing two of the three > surviving council members, then "getting somewhere and declaring the top > to be where he was"). I'm thinking he makes a fortune selling titles (incidentally making a lot of money for the council, getting him into their circle and allowing him to plan his next move). Clearly a random Jhereg can't sell titles - there must be some link to the Empire. Of course he could taken a seat first, but I think the quote was 'he showed up selling titles' not 'he showed up and seized power and started selling titles'. Fortune above implies a non-negligible rate of sales, presumably. > >for example. Do we see him (them) make use of psionic contact? > >I'm wondering how much of a selection advantage having a link gives. > > At one point in /Athyra/, Vlad takes Savn out into the woods and teaches > him to make psionic contact--and it's something he seems unfamiliar with > (but, is obviously capable of, since Vlad teaches it to him). Will have to reread - thought this was a witchcraft-related thing, as Vlad wouldn't want to take off his phoenix stones for something minor. > > My guess, then, is that while the ability is there, (confirming what > Aliera relates to Vlad in chapter 9 of /Jhereg/) Teckla don't generally > get the training needed to use it. Odd - it must be such a huge advantage - consider cell phones vs no snail mail. Maybe this is an instance of isolation/rural cultural inertia - perhaps that doesn't affect my argument about Easterners in or next to a metropolis. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 11:55:18 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: [amusing stuff snipped] > KIERON blush[es] mightily. This seems improbable. I'm sure he does everything "mightily", but only everything he does. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 12:06:38 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:06:38 -0700 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <4492F569.2080402@Sun.COM> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060616132340.026105e0@cox.net> <4492F569.2080402@Sun.COM> Message-ID: On 6/16/06, Chris Olson wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote On 06/16/06 10:24,: > > He says he doesn't read dragon books, with no other qualification. > > That's bigotry. > > Really? I'd have thought that merely poor taste. Yes, it is even as you say. Or, to paraphrase Paarfi, to call one person's taste in books "bigotry" weakens the sense of a perfectly good word. And I also note that that without the context supplied in the followup, the rather terse wording and choice of pronoun certainly made it look as though the innocent original poster of the Penny Arcade link was being referred to; a rather serious false accusation of the wrong person. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 12:14:06 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:14:06 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/16/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > At one point in /Athyra/, Vlad takes Savn out into the woods and teaches > > him to make psionic contact--and it's something he seems unfamiliar with > > (but, is obviously capable of, since Vlad teaches it to him). > > Will have to reread - thought this was a witchcraft-related thing, as > Vlad wouldn't want to take off his phoenix stones for something minor. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that the Phoenix stones block most magic, including witchcraft. I think he does take them off for his session with Savn, though. > > > > My guess, then, is that while the ability is there, (confirming what > > Aliera relates to Vlad in chapter 9 of /Jhereg/) Teckla don't generally > > get the training needed to use it. > > > Odd - it must be such a huge advantage - consider cell phones vs no snail > mail. Maybe this is an instance of isolation/rural cultural inertia - > perhaps that doesn't affect my argument about Easterners in or next to a > metropolis. It occurs to me that psionic communication may not be encouraged because the aristocracy fear that that good communications might allow Teckla to co-ordinate a rebellion better. Just a thought. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 12:22:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:22:04 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/16/06 11:48 AM To "Jon_Lincicum at stream.com" cc Dragaera List Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers >Heh. Well, there is something to what you say. > >But on reflection, it occurs to me that this was a perfect opportunity >for Aliera to meet up with, not Mario, but Kieron... [Silly escapade between Aliera and Kieron] Later: VERRA: So how was he, dear? ALIERA: Awful. It was like making love to a corpse. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 16 12:31:19 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:31:19 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/16/06 12:14 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) >On 6/16/06, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> >> >> > >> > At one point in /Athyra/, Vlad takes Savn out into the woods and teaches >> > him to make psionic contact--and it's something he seems unfamiliar with >> > (but, is obviously capable of, since Vlad teaches it to him). >> >> Will have to reread - thought this was a witchcraft-related thing, as >> Vlad wouldn't want to take off his phoenix stones for something minor. > >I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that the Phoenix stones block >most magic, including witchcraft. I think he does take them off for >his session with Savn, though. It is, he does, and they do. In /Athyra/, Vlad takes off the black Phoenix stone, which blocks psionic energy (which is essential for witchcraft, as well as psionic communication) so that he can talk to Savn Psionically. Witchcraft employs psionic energy, so when vlad approaches using it, he treats it like doing a witchcraft spell. Others (Daymar for example) use psionic energies without associating them with witchcraft. But he was still affected by the black Phoenix stone when rescuing Vlad from (and later sending him back to) Greenaere in /Phoenix/. >> Odd - it must be such a huge advantage - consider cell phones vs no snail >> mail. Maybe this is an instance of isolation/rural cultural inertia - >> perhaps that doesn't affect my argument about Easterners in or next to a >> metropolis. > >It occurs to me that psionic communication may not be encouraged >because the aristocracy fear that that good communications might allow >Teckla to co-ordinate a rebellion better. Just a thought. They could always go to Goodrow & Niece if they lived in Adrilankha. Majikjon From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 12:33:00 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:33:00 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are two kinds of telepathic communication, to my knowledge. One is the kind that the Orb provides- the sorcery enabled one. This is what most Dragaerans use. This IS blocked by Phoenix Stone. The other kind is enabled by witchcraft, or is a natural talent, because Noish-pa uses telepathy with Vlad and he has not demonstrated any use of the ability of sorcery that I can recall. I'm pretty sure this is not blocked by Phoenix stone. On 6/16/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 6/16/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > At one point in /Athyra/, Vlad takes Savn out into the woods and > teaches > > > him to make psionic contact--and it's something he seems unfamiliar > with > > > (but, is obviously capable of, since Vlad teaches it to him). > > > > Will have to reread - thought this was a witchcraft-related thing, as > > Vlad wouldn't want to take off his phoenix stones for something minor. > > I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that the Phoenix stones block > most magic, including witchcraft. I think he does take them off for > his session with Savn, though. > > > > > > > My guess, then, is that while the ability is there, (confirming what > > > Aliera relates to Vlad in chapter 9 of /Jhereg/) Teckla don't > generally > > > get the training needed to use it. > > > > > > Odd - it must be such a huge advantage - consider cell phones vs no > snail > > mail. Maybe this is an instance of isolation/rural cultural inertia - > > perhaps that doesn't affect my argument about Easterners in or next to a > > metropolis. > > It occurs to me that psionic communication may not be encouraged > because the aristocracy fear that that good communications might allow > Teckla to co-ordinate a rebellion better. Just a thought. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060616/88963af0/attachment.html From almagaiz at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 12:34:42 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:34:42 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gah, beaten to the punch. Ignore me, please. On 6/16/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > > There are two kinds of telepathic communication, to my knowledge. One is > the kind that the Orb provides- the sorcery enabled one. This is what most > Dragaerans use. This IS blocked by Phoenix Stone. > > The other kind is enabled by witchcraft, or is a natural talent, because > Noish-pa uses telepathy with Vlad and he has not demonstrated any use of the > ability of sorcery that I can recall. I'm pretty sure this is not blocked by > Phoenix stone. > > > On 6/16/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > > On 6/16/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At one point in /Athyra/, Vlad takes Savn out into the woods and > > teaches > > > > him to make psionic contact--and it's something he seems unfamiliar > > with > > > > (but, is obviously capable of, since Vlad teaches it to him). > > > > > > Will have to reread - thought this was a witchcraft-related thing, as > > > Vlad wouldn't want to take off his phoenix stones for something minor. > > > > I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that the Phoenix stones block > > most magic, including witchcraft. I think he does take them off for > > his session with Savn, though. > > > > > > > > > > My guess, then, is that while the ability is there, (confirming what > > > > Aliera relates to Vlad in chapter 9 of /Jhereg/) Teckla don't > > generally > > > > get the training needed to use it. > > > > > > > > > Odd - it must be such a huge advantage - consider cell phones vs no > > snail > > > mail. Maybe this is an instance of isolation/rural cultural inertia - > > > > > perhaps that doesn't affect my argument about Easterners in or next to > > a > > > metropolis. > > > > It occurs to me that psionic communication may not be encouraged > > because the aristocracy fear that that good communications might allow > > Teckla to co-ordinate a rebellion better. Just a thought. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060616/4f4e526f/attachment.htm From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 16 12:40:26 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 13:40:26 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) Message-ID: <4493092A.50304@brazee.net> On 12:53 PM Philip Hart wrote: > Odd - it must be such a huge advantage - consider cell phones vs no > snail mail. Maybe this is an instance of isolation/rural cultural inertia - > perhaps that doesn't affect my argument about Easterners in or next > to a metropolis. Except when there is real trauma, a long lived species that changes as little as Dragaerians have to be very conservative. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 14:25:32 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:25:32 -0700 Subject: [SKZB] Phoenix stones WAS Re: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606161425l376bf7fcgc19f2a1468442d98@mail.gmail.com> On 6/16/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that the Phoenix stones block > most magic, including witchcraft. I think he does take them off for > his session with Savn, though. The black stone only blocks psychic communication and witchcraft. I'm not sure when Vlad acquires the gold stone; it's before /Orca/ because Vlad is unwilling to take it off to teleport (when Loftis and whatisname are trailing him), but I think it's after /Athyra/ because Vlad has no problem teleporting in that book. Certainly in /Phoenix/ he only got a black stone from Aibynn. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From eshivak at netzero.net Fri Jun 16 14:52:58 2006 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:52:58 -0400 Subject: Jim Baen (BaenBooks) Hospitalized with Stroke In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606161425l376bf7fcgc19f2a1468442d98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801c6918f$3b1e7340$6401a8c0@milo2> === Official announcement from Toni === Dear Barflies I'm sorry to have to announce that Jim Baen suffered a stroke on Monday, and has been in the hospital ever since. His condition is serious, but it's too early for any prognosis as to how he'll fare from here on in. His family has arrived in NC, and are with him in the hospital. I've been to see him, as have other members of Baen's staff and his friend David Drake. In the meantime, so far as Baen Books is concerned, our plans continue on schedule. The business is fine, we're all simply very concerned about Jim. Toni Weisskopf Chief editor, Baen Books Eric Shivak SDD Computer Support Services 631-269-5295 support at sddcomputersupport.com www.sddcomputersupport.com _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 2237 Spam messages and set aside 0 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 16 14:57:01 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:57:01 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c6918f$cc6304b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >They're granted to Easterners, not Dragaerans, by the Jhereg. >QED. /golfclap Okay, now is there a more useful differentiation that might help illuminate us on what differences there are? Saying "they're sold so they're not the same" doesn't change anything. You still can't say anything about what's different or if anything at all is different aside from the method of acquisition - exchange of money instead of inheritance. Why would buying a title neccesarily imply that it's functionally any different than an inherited title? At the risk of being pedantic, do we know for a fact that titles are sold only to Easterners? Questions about House Jhereg aside, we know that impoverished nobles have sold their titles to the Empire. It seems reasonable to conjecture that they could buy them from the Empire as well. Particularly given that the Emperor, like many historical real world emperors, seems to be in a constant state of near-insolvency. The Demon's innovation would seem to be selling them to Easterners, rather than the idea of selling them at all. If buying and selling of titles is acceptable (Tortaalik certainly saw nothing wrong with the sale of Khaavren's family titles) then it seems that there's nothing stopping the Jhereg from selling House Jhereg titles to other Dragaerans other than a lack of a market. From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 16 15:29:04 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <000001c6918f$cc6304b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <000001c6918f$cc6304b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > >They're granted to Easterners, not Dragaerans, by the Jhereg. > > >QED. > > /golfclap > > Okay, now is there a more useful differentiation that might help illuminate > us on what differences there are? Saying "they're sold so they're not the > same" doesn't change anything. They're sold to Easterners by the Jhereg. Perhaps you're missing the point that Easterners aren't like the vast majority of citizens of the Empire, who anyway tend to receive their citizenships differently Look, you're saying "B is like A therefore to doubt B has all properties of A requires proof." I'm saying, "That's silly." The Germans, seeing the success of Silicon Valley etc., instituted a green card program a few years back to lure tech workers from India. Except that it's not a path to citizenship. Someone pointed this out to them and they said, "But it's a green card! See, it's green, and has your picture on it, and you get to come to Aachen or wherever and work here for years at a good salary just like the American version." Now, I can imagine the E-citizen issue coming up in the high councils of state and the Lyorn rep saying, "Over my dead body are they going to get heritable citizenships", and Zerika replying, "How would you like to be killed?" But my guess is that such a racist (speciesist?) society would be loath to allow the as-it-were link mutation into the Eastern gene-pool. Or perhaps for a big price increase they'd grant heritable citizenship on a 1%-of-grants basis. In any case, we don't know either way, and won't, unless SKZB chooses to tell us. A careful population model might show the heritable E-citizenship hypothesis to be untenable, of course, but reaching any conclusion on the basis of the available data seems unlikely to me. From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 16 16:45:07 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:45:07 -0400 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... In-Reply-To: <4492F569.2080402@Sun.COM> References: <1fe778780606140912p66db26beqf8352a74e58dfef2@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060615160849.02637eb8@cox.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060616132340.026105e0@cox.net> <4492F569.2080402@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <60339FA9-F58D-481A-BA5E-611017937D6B@mac.com> On Jun 16, 2006, at 2:16 PM, Chris Olson wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau wrote On 06/16/06 10:24,: >> He says he doesn't read dragon books, with no other >> qualification. That's bigotry. > > Really? I'd have thought that merely poor taste. He also states > he only reads Star Wars books and, when those aren't available, > books that looks Star Warsy. Again, a severe lack of what I would > consider good taste (and I've read some Star Wars books myself, > thanks), but I wouldn't consider it bigotry. (Though I suppose I > could go with "stupidity", and offer him a copy of "Peace" or "Poor > Things", or even "Why People Believe Weird Things".) > > Feh. > > :) > Chris The bigotry comes in when he does NOT say that he doesn't read teckla, jhereg, orca, phoeniz or dzur books. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 16 17:09:30 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 18:09:30 -0600 Subject: For those of you who follow Penny Arcade... Message-ID: <4493483A.5000204@brazee.net> On 5:45 PM Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > The bigotry comes in when he does NOT say that he doesn't read > teckla, jhereg, orca, phoeniz or dzur books. Someone who likes what I like has excellent discrimination. Someone whose likes run contrary to mine is bigoted. From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jun 19 07:23:56 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0e1a01c693ac$05054fd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Look, you're saying "B is like A therefore to doubt B >has all properties of A requires proof." I'm saying, "That's silly." No, I'm saying that Occam's Razor was invented for a reason. Doubting or, more correctly, speculating about the possible differences is perfectly okay. The only problem I ever had,if you go back and look, is that you're constantly talking about your theories and calling them evidence. You even told me I was incorrect and referred back to them when I requested textev (i.e., evidence from the stories). Theories are fine. Thought experiments involving populations of Easterners gaining titles and the results? Great! Good to consider! In the end, though, it's all just speculation. Maybe you haven't actually lost sight of that but a few of your replies give the impression that you're already taking it as a given that your theories are correct and proven and any reasonable person would believe likewise. The books, which are the authoritative evidence, don't support any such conclusions. There are no indications at all about the nature of titles sold to Easterners. Working strictly from the texts of the stories, there is absolutely no reason at all to presume that Vlad's title is any different than Morrolan's. They're both landed gentry in a noble house. The only difference is that Vlad was allowed in by right of commerce while Morollan got his by right of birth and conquest. Are Easterners different from Dragaerans? Bloody right! Does that have anything at all to do with a title of nobility, especially one as inherently meaningless as a Jhereg title? No, at least not until Steve writes a story about it. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 19 09:01:07 2006 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:01:07 -0700 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <0e1a01c693ac$05054fd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <0e1a01c693ac$05054fd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <4496CA43.3090400@Sun.COM> Scott Schultz wrote On 06/19/06 07:23,: > The books, which are the authoritative evidence, don't support any such > conclusions. LOL. I agree, but that's funny, considering the author loves contradictory "evidence". As for conclusions: given all the evidence, one could support a variety of conclusions, most of which would change upon Steve hearing about it and deciding to be a contrary punk, which he evidently enjoys being. :) Chris From howard at brazee.net Mon Jun 19 09:25:18 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:25:18 -0600 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4496CA43.3090400@Sun.COM> References: <0e1a01c693ac$05054fd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <4496CA43.3090400@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <4496CFEE.1020701@brazee.net> Chris Olson wrote: >Scott Schultz wrote On 06/19/06 07:23,: >> The books, which are the authoritative evidence, don't support any such >> conclusions. > >LOL. I agree, but that's funny, considering the author loves >contradictory "evidence". As for conclusions: given all the evidence, >one could support a variety of conclusions, most of which would change >upon Steve hearing about it and deciding to be a contrary punk, which he >evidently enjoys being. :) > > > True, but the works are still the authoritative source. The "Bible" so to speak. When George Bernard Shaw tells us that Eliza married Freddy, it doesn't mean he's correct - because he didn't put it in the _Pygmalion_. (Or My Fair Lady, where Freddy of the movie later became Sherlock Holmes). He was just speculating the way we do. What is interesting about the Dragaeran universe is that Steve has created various levels of authority. We know that his characters aren't always interested in complete accuracy - even his 1st person characters. But that's true in real life, and we can sometimes evaluate which statements are more likely to be true within the context of the novels. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Mon Jun 19 10:59:01 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:59:01 -0400 Subject: Multi-jointed fingers (and houses) In-Reply-To: <4496CFEE.1020701@brazee.net> References: <0e1a01c693ac$05054fd0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <4496CA43.3090400@Sun.COM> <4496CFEE.1020701@brazee.net> Message-ID: <4496E5E5.5080401@email.ers.usda.gov> Howard Brazee wrote: > True, but the works are still the authoritative source. The "Bible" > so to speak. When George Bernard Shaw tells us that Eliza married > Freddy, it doesn't mean he's correct - because he didn't put it in the > _Pygmalion_. (Or My Fair Lady, where Freddy of the movie later > became Sherlock Holmes). He was just speculating the way we do. > Ordinarily, true. But in this specific case, probably not. The original 1911 Pygmalion ends with Eliza walking out, and Shaw wound up writing just the afterword you speak of to deal with the fallout. He had to revise the ending for the first movie version (actually, he had conceived the play as a sort of imaginary film script to begin with, so when he got the chance he was eager to make an actual film of it.)--rather, he revised it in, o, something like 1917 IIRC--and that made a hash of the afterword. Given that the original play is *impossible* to stage (because of the cinematic elements), and that the afterword followed so closely to original, there is some justification for treating the whole as one imaginative work. Certainly, it is generally published that way. This, of course, is quite different from asking Faulkner whatever happened to the Bundren clan after they sent Darl to the asylum & finished burying Addie & came home with a new wife/mother. There isn't any afterword in that case, and no further mention of them in Yocnapatawpha. (It is different again from asking Brecht which is the real Galileo or the real Mother Courage. For one thing, the revisions show what Brecht thought; for another, it is irrelevent.) Snarkhunter From kate.nepveu at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 04:40:28 2006 From: kate.nepveu at gmail.com (Kate Nepveu) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:40:28 -0400 Subject: Dzur review Message-ID: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> I've reviewed an ARC of _Dzur_ here: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/2006/06/brust_dzur.php It's fairly short, so I'll also paste in the text here: * * * * Fans of Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series: do not read any review of _Dzur_ (out in August) other than this one. There are two surprises in the Prologue, one small and one big, and while it's hard to call them *spoilers* since they're in the Prologue, it's so much fun to experience them as surprises. (The jacket copy is safe.) Fortunately, the basic plot can be sketched without revealing these surprises. After the series-changing events of _Issola_, Vlad has gone for a meal at Valabar's in Adrilankha. There, he finds that his estranged wife Cawti is having problems: they were both in the Organization (think Mafia); he'd left her the Organization's interests in South Adrilankha when he left town several books back; and now the Left Hand of the Jhereg, a sorcerous organization, is moving in. (As the Organization is also known as the Right Hand, this allows the utterly deadpan statement, "It's unfortunate, how little the Right Hand knows what the Left Hand is doing.") For various reasons, Vlad agrees to help Cawti, despite the personal danger to himself (he didn't leave town for a vacation, several books back). Actually, if you need that backstory, you shouldn't be reading this book. Start with _Jhereg_ and go forward in publication order. If you don't need that backstory, just go buy the book when it comes out in August. It has all the stuff you read a Vlad novel for: old friends; enjoyable new characters; loving descriptions of food (the meal at Valabar's is spread out over the remaining chapters as the opening section); snark; and using one's wits to get out of desparate situations. And it's really good to see how Vlad is growing and changing; this book is a very interesting contrast to _Dragon_, the book before _Issola_ and also named after a very war-inclined House. (It's killing me that I can't say more about it than that. But, interesting contrast; watch for it.) At this point in the series, there are a number of long-term plot issues waiting to be resolved. I suspect that some people will want more movement on these than they're going to get; but I think enough happens in this book to be a book, and I'm willing to trust Brust on the pacing of the series overall. And I very much enjoyed and appreciated what happens here--all I really want is for August to hurry up and get here so I can discuss it! Many thanks to Patrick Nielsen Hayden for the Advance Uncorrected Proof. * * * * I really do look forward to the list's reactions. I know, I know, so do you all . . . -- Kate Nepveu kate.nepveu at gmail.com From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 08:38:46 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:38:46 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds like Steve is comparing Valabar's to witchcraft. On 6/20/06, Kate Nepveu wrote: > > I've reviewed an ARC of _Dzur_ here: > > http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/2006/06/brust_dzur.php > > It's fairly short, so I'll also paste in the text here: > > * * * * > > Fans of Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series: do not read any review of > _Dzur_ (out in August) other than this one. There are two surprises in > the Prologue, one small and one big, and while it's hard to call them > *spoilers* since they're in the Prologue, it's so much fun to > experience them as surprises. (The jacket copy is safe.) > > Fortunately, the basic plot can be sketched without revealing these > surprises. After the series-changing events of _Issola_, Vlad has gone > for a meal at Valabar's in Adrilankha. There, he finds that his > estranged wife Cawti is having problems: they were both in the > Organization (think Mafia); he'd left her the Organization's interests > in South Adrilankha when he left town several books back; and now the > Left Hand of the Jhereg, a sorcerous organization, is moving in. (As > the Organization is also known as the Right Hand, this allows the > utterly deadpan statement, "It's unfortunate, how little the Right > Hand knows what the Left Hand is doing.") For various reasons, Vlad > agrees to help Cawti, despite the personal danger to himself (he > didn't leave town for a vacation, several books back). > > Actually, if you need that backstory, you shouldn't be reading this > book. Start with _Jhereg_ and go forward in publication order. > > If you don't need that backstory, just go buy the book when it comes > out in August. It has all the stuff you read a Vlad novel for: old > friends; enjoyable new characters; loving descriptions of food (the > meal at Valabar's is spread out over the remaining chapters as the > opening section); snark; and using one's wits to get out of desparate > situations. And it's really good to see how Vlad is growing and > changing; this book is a very interesting contrast to _Dragon_, the > book before _Issola_ and also named after a very war-inclined House. > (It's killing me that I can't say more about it than that. But, > interesting contrast; watch for it.) > > At this point in the series, there are a number of long-term plot > issues waiting to be resolved. I suspect that some people will want > more movement on these than they're going to get; but I think enough > happens in this book to be a book, and I'm willing to trust Brust on > the pacing of the series overall. And I very much enjoyed and > appreciated what happens here--all I really want is for August to > hurry up and get here so I can discuss it! > > Many thanks to Patrick Nielsen Hayden for the Advance Uncorrected Proof. > > * * * * > > I really do look forward to the list's reactions. I know, I know, so > do you all . . . > > -- > Kate Nepveu > kate.nepveu at gmail.com > From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 20 08:45:43 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:45:43 -0700 Subject: Size as a House Characteristic Message-ID: Updating an earlier conversation, I found an interesting reference in /Five Hundred Years After/ that seems to imply that height (or rather size) is indeed one of the indicators as to house identity. This comes from the first description of Grita, page 66, paperback: "Yet the roundness of her eyes gave the lie to this conclusion, and, furthermore, her complexion (which was nearly the color of an unripe olive) and her size spoke of the house of Tsalmoth." While it's a bit unclear if this indicates that Tsalmoth are especially large or especially small, it does indicate the one or the other is at least a factor for a Dragaeran who's trying to figure out what House another Dragaeran is a member of. Majikjon From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 20 08:48:29 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:48:29 -0700 Subject: Dzur review References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Eastman" To: "Kate Nepveu" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:38 AM Subject: Re: Dzur review > Sounds like Steve is comparing Valabar's to witchcraft. > Good cooking is. jeff From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 20 11:43:14 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:14 -0700 Subject: Size as a House Characteristic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "S. Hall" 06/20/06 09:21 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Subject RE: Size as a House Characteristic >house closely to learn something like this, and as observant as Vlad can be, >he's quite young :P Yeah, and he's also go these memory problems that he... er... uh... ...what was I talking about? Majikjon From kate.nepveu at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 11:46:04 2006 From: kate.nepveu at gmail.com (Kate Nepveu) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:46:04 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <360751e50606201146h253d2599h68d0b778fc31067d@mail.gmail.com> I don't specifically recall whether there's a comparison of cooking to witchcraft (there probably is), but there is certainly a comparison to assassination. On 6/20/06, Louis Eastman wrote: > Sounds like Steve is comparing Valabar's to witchcraft. > > > On 6/20/06, Kate Nepveu wrote: > > > I've reviewed an ARC of _Dzur_ here: > > http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/2006/06/brust_dzur.php > > It's fairly short, so I'll also paste in the text here: [snip to reduce inblox clutter] -- Kate Nepveu kate.nepveu at gmail.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Tue Jun 20 12:24:17 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:24:17 -0700 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <360751e50606201146h253d2599h68d0b778fc31067d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Kate Nepveu" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/20/06 11:46 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dzur review >I don't specifically recall whether there's a comparison of cooking to >witchcraft (there probably is), but there is certainly a comparison to >assassination. There is not only a comparison between witchcraft and cooking, there's a comment by Vlad by how overused this particular comparison is. (I think this is when he's breaking chains in /Issola/, but it might be someplace else.) Majikjon From felixeisen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 13:26:06 2006 From: felixeisen at yahoo.com (Felix Eisen) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Baen Message-ID: <20060620202606.80113.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> How very tragic. Give all our best (well, all -my- best) to Jim and his family. (Of course, I read David Drake too; 'The Sharp End' is on the desk next to me...) S. Thomas Crain --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 17:36:11 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:36:11 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: References: <360751e50606201146h253d2599h68d0b778fc31067d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually I was referring to Taltos, where Vlad's little impromptu spell saved Morrolan's elvish behind, and how it was spread out over the chapters- like, apparently, the meal in Dzur. On 6/20/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > > "Kate Nepveu" > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/20/06 11:46 AM > > To > dragaera at dragaera.info > cc > > Subject > Re: Dzur review > > > > > >I don't specifically recall whether there's a comparison of cooking to > >witchcraft (there probably is), but there is certainly a comparison to > >assassination. > > There is not only a comparison between witchcraft and cooking, there's a > comment by Vlad by how overused this particular comparison is. > > (I think this is when he's breaking chains in /Issola/, but it might be > someplace else.) > > Majikjon > > > From eshivak at netzero.net Wed Jun 21 04:54:34 2006 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:54:34 -0400 Subject: Update on Jim Baen In-Reply-To: <20060620202606.80113.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c69529$76afac60$6401a8c0@milo2> Received this update on another list: ----- Original Message ----- From: Danielle Turner Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: This is what we released this morning Dear Friends of Jim Baen and Baen Books, At this time we regret we are unable to give you positive news regarding Jim's condition. As many of you know, last Monday Jim suffered a stroke. The doctors describe it as a massive bilateral stroke in the thalamus. Jim has not regained consciousness and his condition has become severe. He is resting comfortably now, and appears to be in no pain; however the doctors' prognosis is grave. We know that very many people care for Jim and have been hoping and praying for a positive outcome, but we wanted to share this information with you, as so many have asked and expressed great concern. Jessica Baen & Toni Weisskopf Danielle Turner Managing Editor Baen Books ____________ Eric Shivak SDD Computer Support Services 631-269-5295 support at sddcomputersupport.com www.sddcomputersupport.com _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 2384 Spam messages and set aside 0 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 21 16:49:21 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:21 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council Message-ID: On 6/15/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > Although I do find myself wondering if perhaps Aliera's birth (and > acceptance as a Dragon) might have had some influence on the Dragon > Council deciding that perhaps the e'Lanya line of Dragons was a better > choice for the Heir than Adron. Even if they accepted Aliera, there > might have been a vague distrust of Verra and her motives that made > the choice of changing the Heir just a bit easier. > Some musings on the above: Perhaps there might have been sufficient question over Aliera's legitimacy as a proper Dragon, shortly after she was born, to cast a shadow over Adron. There's a bit of a kerfluffle as the Dragon Council tries to cope with this completely unprecedented situation. Even if Adron testifies under the Orb; even if the genescans all check out; even if Verra gives direct testimony to the Council as to Aliera's provenance; the situation is so unusual that it becomes desireable to find someone a little less controversial to be Heir. Thus, the e'Lanya line is chosen instead. However, some indeterminate period of time later, K'laiyer's politics turn out to be unacceptable to Sethra Junior. When she discusses it with her friends the SiG and Baritt, several options for discrediting K'laiyer might have been discussed, but the whole "legitimacy casting a shadow over the parent" from the Aliera issue might well have inspired them to take the course of action they did. An uglier possibility is that Adron, holding himself insulted by having Aliera's legitimacy questioned, was more involved with the choice of accusations against K'laiyer and Miera than the text of /Yendi/ makes it appear. This sort of mean-spirited, spiteful revenge would make Adron a rather petty (and evil) person, but I think it could be argued that the escalating conflict between Adron and Tortaalik leading up to the Disaster was an exercise in mutual pettiness. At any rate, after K'laiyer & wife are safely dead, Aliera would therefore have been provisionally accepted for long enough (a few centuries, perhaps?) that she would have been a very attractive young woman that the Council had had time to become accustomed to, and there would thus have been no objection to making Adron the Heir again. Of course, the internal politics of the Dragon Council will never be revealed, so it is rather useless to speculate. But nevertheless. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Wed Jun 21 19:56:21 2006 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:56:21 EDT Subject: Fwd: Update on Jim Baen Message-ID: <531.86214c.31cb60d5@aol.com> That's just soooooo wrong. -------------- next part -------------- From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 23:02:34 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 02:02:34 -0400 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Davdi Silverrock" >To: "Dragaera List" >Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:21 -0700 > >Of course, the internal politics of the Dragon Council will never be >revealed, so it is rather useless to speculate. But nevertheless. Unless, of course, Steve decides to use another narrator again; I dont think I'm alone in enjoying Orca, or the basis of Athyra. Then again, Vlad could always just turn the Dragaeran world upside down again and get himself involved anyways =p With GS it would be much harder for people to say no if he gets stubborn enough From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 22 07:04:14 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 07:04:14 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/21/06 04:49 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Adron and the Dragon Council >Perhaps there might have been sufficient question over Aliera's >legitimacy as a proper Dragon, shortly after she was born, to cast a >shadow over Adron. There's a bit of a kerfluffle as the Dragon >Council tries to cope with this completely unprecedented situation. >Even if Adron testifies under the Orb; even if the genescans all check >out; even if Verra gives direct testimony to the Council as to >Aliera's provenance; the situation is so unusual that it becomes >desireable to find someone a little less controversial to be Heir. >Thus, the e'Lanya line is chosen instead. Given the way Dragaerans view gods, I just don't see Aliera's parentage as being that big of a deal. It's not like her mother was a Dzur, or a Tiassa, or (god forbid) a Teckla. I find it much more likely that Adron would have been replaced as heir for one of the following reasons: 1. He was too ambitious. (He had a lean and hungry look about him.) 2. He was too successful. (His Breath of Fire Battalion was an incredibly potent military force, many may have feared he would try to stage a coup and make the cycle change "early".) 3. Tortaalik felt threatened by him. (The emperor, even one as inept as Tortaalik, does have considerable pull with the leaders of the other Houses) 4. The Dragon Council was scared by Adron's experimentations with Elder Sorcery. (It was outlawed for a reason, after all.) It's worth noting that pretty much all of these fears are well founded ones... Aliera talks in /Yendi/ about the reasons for why the Dragon Council choose the e'Lanya line to be heirs during Tortaalik's reign... But she is deliberately vague on the subject of their motivations, since non-Dragons (Vlad and Cawti) are present during the discussion. >However, some indeterminate period of time later, K'laiyer's politics >turn out to be unacceptable to Sethra Junior. When she discusses it >with her friends the SiG and Baritt, several options for discrediting >K'laiyer might have been discussed, but the whole "legitimacy casting >a shadow over the parent" from the Aliera issue might well have >inspired them to take the course of action they did. Interesting idea. However, I can't believe that there was really any other plan than to have Norathar's parents murdered, under cover of a battle with Sethra. Whatever "discrediting" was done was simply to rouse the e'Lanyas to get angry enough to attack Dzur Mountain. >An uglier possibility is that Adron, holding himself insulted by >having Aliera's legitimacy questioned, was more involved with the >choice of accusations against K'laiyer and Miera than the text of >/Yendi/ makes it appear. This sort of mean-spirited, spiteful revenge >would make Adron a rather petty (and evil) person, but I think it >could be argued that the escalating conflict between Adron and >Tortaalik leading up to the Disaster was an exercise in mutual >pettiness. This is entirely consistent with events... Just don't let Aliera hear you talking this way. ;-) >At any rate, after K'laiyer & wife are safely dead, Aliera would >therefore have been provisionally accepted for long enough (a few >centuries, perhaps?) that she would have been a very attractive young >woman that the Council had had time to become accustomed to, and there >would thus have been no objection to making Adron the Heir again. Perhaps. But if this was even an issue, why couldn't they have just found another Dragonlord without a "bastard" child at all? Say, Rollondar e'Drien? Or Barrit? >Of course, the internal politics of the Dragon Council will never be >revealed, so it is rather useless to speculate. But nevertheless. "Useless" is a term that is only applicable if it's a subject you don't enjoy discussing, in which case, why are you even here? :-) Majikjon /Uh, Boss? There's a short Dragonlord with blonde hair and a Great Weapon here to talk to you about some of the things you said in that message./ From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jun 22 11:06:37 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:06:37 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606221106i387e3cf2o77bb1e1a4ac243a7@mail.gmail.com> On 6/22/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Interesting idea. However, I can't believe that there was really any other > plan than to have Norathar's parents murdered, under cover of a battle > with Sethra. Whatever "discrediting" was done was simply to rouse the > e'Lanyas to get angry enough to attack Dzur Mountain. Simultaneously discrediting Norathar would be a huge plus, though. -Maximilian -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 22 11:27:41 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:27:41 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606221106i387e3cf2o77bb1e1a4ac243a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/22/06 11:06 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Adron and the Dragon Council >On 6/22/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Interesting idea. However, I can't believe that there was really any other >> plan than to have Norathar's parents murdered, under cover of a battle >> with Sethra. Whatever "discrediting" was done was simply to rouse the >> e'Lanyas to get angry enough to attack Dzur Mountain. > >Simultaneously discrediting Norathar would be a huge plus, though. Well, it certainly avoided the immediate need to kill her. Given the way things ended up working out, however, it might have been better for the conspirators had she died then and there. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 22 13:02:39 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:02:39 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/22/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" wrote: > > > > >Perhaps there might have been sufficient question over Aliera's > >legitimacy as a proper Dragon, shortly after she was born, to cast a > >shadow over Adron. There's a bit of a kerfluffle as the Dragon > >Council tries to cope with this completely unprecedented situation. > >Even if Adron testifies under the Orb; even if the genescans all check > >out; even if Verra gives direct testimony to the Council as to > >Aliera's provenance; the situation is so unusual that it becomes > >desireable to find someone a little less controversial to be Heir. > >Thus, the e'Lanya line is chosen instead. > > Given the way Dragaerans view gods, I just don't see Aliera's parentage as > being that big of a deal. > > It's not like her mother was a Dzur, or a Tiassa, or (god forbid) a > Teckla. Yet I am of exactly the opposite opinion precisely because of the pragmatic way that Dragaerans view gods. Dragaerans think that the gods are those who have learned certain skills. Thus, they are worthy of respect, because they have power. But Dragaerans don't have a superstitious acceptance that everything that the gods are and do is automatically right and correct and automatically "good". The Dragon Council, being concerned about the purity of the Dragon lineages, might well have reason to doubt Verra's contributions to Aliera's genes, at least, as I am arguing, provisionally. > I find it much more likely that Adron would have been replaced as heir for > one of the following reasons: > > 3. Tortaalik felt threatened by him. (The emperor, even one as inept as > Tortaalik, does have considerable pull with the leaders of the other > Houses) Does he? Remember, Tortaalik couldn't even get all of the House representatives together. And Tortaalik didn't even pay attention to politics, allowing Jurabin to pretty much run things. Remember the headache? I suspect that each House has full autonomy in choosing its own Heir, and would not welcome meddling by outsiders in their internal affairs. In fact, if Tortaalik *had* expressed an objection to Adron, the Dragon Council might have been inclined to view that as being an incentive to choose (or keep) Adron, so as not to be seen to give in to external pressure. > 4. The Dragon Council was scared by Adron's experimentations with Elder > Sorcery. (It was outlawed for a reason, after all.) Perhaps. Yet those experiments came after he was chosen as Heir the second time, or so I recall. > > >However, some indeterminate period of time later, K'laiyer's politics > >turn out to be unacceptable to Sethra Junior. When she discusses it > >with her friends the SiG and Baritt, several options for discrediting > >K'laiyer might have been discussed, but the whole "legitimacy casting > >a shadow over the parent" from the Aliera issue might well have > >inspired them to take the course of action they did. > > Interesting idea. However, I can't believe that there was really any other > plan than to have Norathar's parents murdered, under cover of a battle > with Sethra. Whatever "discrediting" was done was simply to rouse the > e'Lanyas to get angry enough to attack Dzur Mountain. Yet how could the conspirators have been certain that K'laiyer and Miera would declare war, rather than a personal duel with Sethra Lavode, or for that matter, keeping their cool and demanding a full investigation into the allegations? The Dragaerans have a truth verification tool. If K'laiyer and Miera testify under the Orb that Norathar is the natural offspring of the both of them, that might then lead to a third, genuinely impartial sorcerer performs a validating genescan, and then Sethra Jr & the SiG have to suddenly get out of town fast. I suspect that the SiG may have used her sneaky Yendi manipulation skills to goad and insult K'laiyer into intemperate action, perhaps by intercepting messengers and rewriting their messages. > >An uglier possibility is that Adron, holding himself insulted by > >having Aliera's legitimacy questioned, was more involved with the > >choice of accusations against K'laiyer and Miera than the text of > >/Yendi/ makes it appear. This sort of mean-spirited, spiteful revenge > >would make Adron a rather petty (and evil) person, but I think it > >could be argued that the escalating conflict between Adron and > >Tortaalik leading up to the Disaster was an exercise in mutual > >pettiness. > > This is entirely consistent with events... Just don't let Aliera hear you > talking this way. ;-) Or Morrolan, since he seems to have a case of hero-worship for Adron. > >At any rate, after K'laiyer & wife are safely dead, Aliera would > >therefore have been provisionally accepted for long enough (a few > >centuries, perhaps?) that she would have been a very attractive young > >woman that the Council had had time to become accustomed to, and there > >would thus have been no objection to making Adron the Heir again. > > Perhaps. But if this was even an issue, why couldn't they have just found > another Dragonlord without a "bastard" child at all? Say, Rollondar > e'Drien? Or Barrit? Shrug. Who can say? Politics. Go figure. > >Of course, the internal politics of the Dragon Council will never be > >revealed, so it is rather useless to speculate. But nevertheless. > > "Useless" is a term that is only applicable if it's a subject you don't > enjoy discussing, in which case, why are you even here? :-) "Well, to begin with, then, the world was made when the gods created a ball of amorphia to hang-" From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 22 13:01:48 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:01:48 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13ba01c69636$b26a2920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Do we have much of an inkling about how House Jhereg (as opposed to The Organization) is governed? It seems as if the House is divided into three branches. The Organization, the Left Hand, and for lack of anything better to call them, The Nobles. These last I imagine as the "respectable" face of the House, being those who aren't directly associated with the other two branches and/or those who function as the House representatives at Court and, presumably, in other positions of political responsibility. Given that the Organization members like to refer to the Left Hand as "The Bitch Patrol", there's clearly no love lost between The Left Hand and The Organization. Vlad certainly shows no compunction about dealing with Left Hand sorcerors as harshly as the situation requires. I'm left with the impression that, despite being ostensibly part of the same House, that the Left Hand and The Organization are autonomous rivals at best and Cold War-style enemies at worst. The question I got thinking about today, based on this, is who actually runs the affairs of the House? I'm pretty sure we've seen references to a Council at the top, but not much info about who's on it or if said Council is just the heads of the Organization. Have we seen any references to the people who run the House as a whole? If there's one guy at the top, whether by force of will or political maneuvering, he must be a truly frightening individual. Someone with the amorality of the Left Hand, the deviousness of the Organization, and the political acumen to keep those two branches played off against each other and still monitor and control as much of the Court as possible with his "courtier network". Tangentially, it raises the question of whether there is, in fact, some branch of House Jhereg whose job it is to act like the other nobles as far as managing estates and tithing to the Throne and otherwise providing the fa?ade of respectability required for political dealings with the other Houses. We don't see any direct evidence of such, it's true, but I wonder if that's because it doesn?t exist or if it's simply that Vlad never has occasion to mingle with that side of the House, being a member of the Organization himself? I'm reminded of Legend of the Five Rings. For those unfamiliar with it, L5R is an ostensibly Asian game setting in a mythical land called Rokugan. The people are divided into clans with signature traits, much like the Houses of Dragaera are people with genetic traits unique to the House. The analog to House Jhereg is The Scorpion Clan which, interestingly enough, is even divided into three branches which break down roughly to the mafia, the sorcerors, and the politicians. (I'm not suggesting that Steve copied anything from L5R. It's more likely he's never heard of it.) Despite the involvement of The Scorpion Clan in just about any intrigue that's the least bit illegal, they're allowed to exist (within bounds) because they also serve as The Emperor's Underhand. That is, when the Emperor needs something done that it would otherwise be dishonorable and/or dangerous for him to order done himself, the job is given to the Scorpions to handle. The Scorpions are the ultimate spies, as well as cutthroats and thieves, but they consider themselves honorable (as a clan, anyway) because what they do is ultimately for the good of the Empire. If they line their own pockets or increase their personal power along the way, well, there's no harm in that,surely. So, getting back to Dragaera, who does the Empress turn to if she needs someone dead and a war is the wrong way to go about it? If someone needs assassinating for the good of the Empire, how does the job get parceled out? I just wonder if this hypothetical Noble Branch of House Jhereg exists to take care of this problem? Perhaps this "Noble Branch" is a front for what amounts to the most extensive spy network in the Empire. It would certainly help explain where Vlad and Kragar get some of their more esoteric information when they need it, and how the leader of the Jhereg Council manages to keep control of the other representatives on the Council and, by extension, the organizations underneath them. As a side benefit, the other Houses have someone marginally respectible to go to as an intermediary when they need something unsavory done. What do you think? Is there anything in the stories that might support the theories I've outlined? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 22 14:12:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:12:32 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/22/06 01:02 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Adron and the Dragon Council >On 6/22/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: >> >> It's not like her mother was a Dzur, or a Tiassa, or (god forbid) a >> Teckla. > >Yet I am of exactly the opposite opinion precisely because of the >pragmatic way that Dragaerans view gods. Dragaerans think that the >gods are those who have learned certain skills. Thus, they are worthy >of respect, because they have power. But Dragaerans don't have a >superstitious acceptance that everything that the gods are and do is >automatically right and correct and automatically "good". > >The Dragon Council, being concerned about the purity of the Dragon >lineages, might well have reason to doubt Verra's contributions to >Aliera's genes, at least, as I am arguing, provisionally. An excellent point. However, my case, really, is that Aliera's existence is likely to be viewed as devine intervention, rather than as an "unfortunate who was created due to an excess of passion or an inadequacy of protection" (to paraphrase Paarfi regarding crossbreeds). Even given the Dragaeran view of the gods, the Council is likely to view this in a different light than someone like, say, Grita, or Mellar. Also, given Verra's abilities, it's possible that Aliera's genes are, in fact, 100% Dragon (or near enough that even the best Athyra sorcerers cannot distinguish the difference). >> 3. Tortaalik felt threatened by him. (The emperor, even one as inept as >> Tortaalik, does have considerable pull with the leaders of the other >> Houses) > >Does he? Remember, Tortaalik couldn't even get all of the House >representatives together. And Tortaalik didn't even pay attention to >politics, allowing Jurabin to pretty much run things. Remember the >headache? The question is, rather, "Did he?", as in, did Tortaalik have this influence at the time (presumably some hundreds of years prior to the events in /FHYA/ when Adron was removed as Dragon heir). Even as stubborn and contrary as Dragonlords are, I suspect having the Emperor on your side is unlikely to be counted against you. Keep in mind that Tortaalik (as advised by Wellborn) was considered a good Emperor until the last 50 (or even fewer) years of his reign. >I suspect that each House has full autonomy in choosing its own Heir, >and would not welcome meddling by outsiders in their internal affairs. > In fact, if Tortaalik *had* expressed an objection to Adron, the >Dragon Council might have been inclined to view that as being an >incentive to choose (or keep) Adron, so as not to be seen to give in >to external pressure. Perhaps. But the Dragons didn't appear to loose faith in Tortaalik until the very end of his reign (see the discussion between Dragonlords and the Dzurlord in "The Silver Shadow" in /FHYA/ (ch 19, pgs 286-289, paperback). >> 4. The Dragon Council was scared by Adron's experimentations with Elder >> Sorcery. (It was outlawed for a reason, after all.) > >Perhaps. Yet those experiments came after he was chosen as Heir the >second time, or so I recall. Well, it's a bit unclear. Yet certainly Tortaalik (or rather, Jurabin) had that information when he accused Adron on his first visit to the Palace in /FHYA/. Jurabin never got anything first hand, so rumors about Adron's "dabbling" had likely been going around for many years before this time. > Interesting idea. However, I can't believe that there was really any other > plan than to have Norathar's parents murdered, under cover of a battle > with Sethra. Whatever "discrediting" was done was simply to rouse the > e'Lanyas to get angry enough to attack Dzur Mountain. >Yet how could the conspirators have been certain that K'laiyer and >Miera would declare war, rather than a personal duel with Sethra >Lavode, or for that matter, keeping their cool and demanding a full >investigation into the allegations? Because they are Dragonlords. >The Dragaerans have a truth verification tool. If K'laiyer and Miera >testify under the Orb that Norathar is the natural offspring of the >both of them, that might then lead to a third, genuinely impartial >sorcerer performs a validating genescan, and then Sethra Jr & the SiG >have to suddenly get out of town fast. Again, Dragonlords. >I suspect that the SiG may have used her sneaky Yendi manipulation >skills to goad and insult K'laiyer into intemperate action, perhaps by >intercepting messengers and rewriting their messages. Possible, but I doubt it was needed. Remember how Norathar reacted when she found out Sethra was the one who made the accusation? A Dragon to the core. >> Perhaps. But if this was even an issue, why couldn't they have just found >> another Dragonlord without a "bastard" child at all? Say, Rollondar >> e'Drien? Or Barrit? > >Shrug. Who can say? Politics. Go figure. Well, that's an answer that can apply to almost any of the points in this entire line of speculation... >"Well, to begin with, then, the world was made when the gods created a >ball of amorphia to hang-" That brings up an interesting point. This phrase is kind of the Dragaeran version of "In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth..." (I'm sure the similarity is deliberate.) But what text is this phrase actually from? Do the Shamen of Dragaera have a holy book? (/The Book of the Seven Wizards/, perhaps?) or is this just an example of Vlad being flippant? Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 22 14:44:47 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:44:47 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: <13ba01c69636$b26a2920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/22/06 01:01 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject How is House Jhereg governed? >Do we have much of an inkling about how House Jhereg (as opposed to The >Organization) is governed? > >It seems as if the House is divided into three branches. The Organization, >the Left Hand, and for lack of anything better to call them, The Nobles. >These last I imagine as the "respectable" face of the House, being those >who aren't directly associated with the other two branches and/or those who >function as the House representatives at Court and, presumably, in other >positions of political responsibility. The only real example we've seen of the "respectable" Jhereg nobles, is Softa, the Imperial Representative that Vlad threatens in /Phoenix/. It is implied in the story that he's (more or less) in the Jhereg Council's pocket, so I don't know if it's really possible to separate the council from the overall house leadership. >Given that the Organization members like to refer to the Left Hand as "The >Bitch Patrol", there's clearly no love lost between The Left Hand and The >Organization. Vlad certainly shows no compunction about dealing with Left >Hand sorcerors as harshly as the situation requires. At the lower levels, this is certainly true, however, note the events in /Jhereg/, where the Demon was basically dictating the actions of the entire Left Hand in the search for Mellar. (Well, maybe he was just paying them to work free-lance, rather than due to any particular alliegance to the Council? Possible, but remember that at that particular moment, the Council was in a severe cash crisis.) >today, based on this, is who actually runs the affairs of the House? I'm >pretty sure we've seen references to a Council at the top, but not much info >about who's on it or if said Council is just the heads of the Organization. >Have we seen any references to the people who run the House as a whole? > >If there's one guy at the top, whether by force of will or political >maneuvering, he must be a truly frightening individual. Someone with the >amorality of the Left Hand, the deviousness of the Organization, and the >political acumen to keep those two branches played off against each other >and still monitor and control as much of the Court as possible with his >"courtier network". The mysterious "number one" of the Jhereg mentions only a vague and fleeting reference at the beginning of /Jhereg/ when Vlad is trying to figure out who the Demon is hiring him to kill. I got the impression from this that all the money in the world wouldn't have been enough money to make Vlad go for this mysterious figure--which cannot be said even for the Empress. I wonder how much the events of /Issola/ may have affected this worldview? ;-) >Tangentially, it raises the question of whether there is, in fact, some >branch of House Jhereg whose job it is to act like the other nobles as far >as managing estates and tithing to the Throne and otherwise providing the >fa?ade of respectability required for political dealings with the other >Houses. We don't see any direct evidence of such, it's true, but I wonder if >that's because it doesn?t exist or if it's simply that Vlad never has >occasion to mingle with that side of the House, being a member of the >Organization himself? Again, I suspect the Council members of the business end of the Jhereg are ultimately in control of these operations, even if there is a respectable "front" group of nobles that carry out the actual formalities and bookkeeping. >I'm reminded of Legend of the Five Rings. For those unfamiliar with it, L5R >is an ostensibly Asian game setting in a mythical land called Rokugan. The >people are divided into clans with signature traits, much like the Houses of >Dragaera are people with genetic traits unique to the House. The analog to >House Jhereg is The Scorpion Clan which, interestingly enough, is even >divided into three branches which break down roughly to the mafia, the >sorcerors, and the politicians. (I'm not suggesting that Steve copied >anything from L5R. It's more likely he's never heard of it.) Almost any large criminal organization could be broken down this way, (Muscle, Mystics, Politicos) so it's not that surprising. >So, getting back to Dragaera, who does the Empress turn to if she needs >someone dead and a war is the wrong way to go about it? If someone needs >assassinating for the good of the Empire, how does the job get parceled out? The Jhereg are (or were when the house was founded) the intelligence corps of the Empire. Scouts, and such. This is the natural area for spies and assassins to grow out of, of course, so it's likely that the Jhereg as a House once filled the role now occupied by the Imperial Surveillance Corps, Special Tasks Group, Third Floor Relic, etc. Does House Jhereg still serve this function? Perhaps. But I doubt it. The Warlord likely wants more direct (and reliable) control over his agents. Possibly a politically sponsored assassin would be recruited from amongst the Jhereg (since a Dragonlord or Dzurlord would find such work distastefull) but the leadership is almost certainly made up of Dragonlords. >I just wonder if this hypothetical Noble Branch of House Jhereg exists to >take care of this problem? Perhaps this "Noble Branch" is a front for what >amounts to the most extensive spy network in the Empire. It would certainly >help explain where Vlad and Kragar get some of their more esoteric >information when they need it, and how the leader of the Jhereg Council >manages to keep control of the other representatives on the Council and, by >extension, the organizations underneath them. It's made pretty clear that Vlad and Kragar set up their own spy network, as evidenced by the fact that Vlad doesn't have one yet during /Yendi/ at the time of his war with Laris, and it's one of the reasons the Demon looks up Vlad specifically in /Jhereg/. It's also mentioned that Kragar is especially good at working his romantic charms on cute, meek Lyorn librarians in order to get what Vlad needs. >As a side benefit, the other Houses have someone marginally respectible to >go to as an intermediary when they need something unsavory done. How many of the other Houses would really condone assassination? Athyra, Chreotha, Orca, maybe? I can't really see the Lyorn, Phoenix, Dragons, Hawks, Iorich, Issola, Tiassa et al having much use for such services. Majikjon -------------- next part -------------- From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 22 16:17:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:17:20 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/22/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" wrote: > > >On 6/22/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > However, my case, really, is that Aliera's existence is likely to be > viewed as devine intervention, rather than as an "unfortunate who was > created due to an excess of passion or an inadequacy of protection" (to > paraphrase Paarfi regarding crossbreeds). Well, yes, that's my point. I'm not trying to say that it was asserted that Aliera was not legitimate, only that the whole business was sufficiently unusual that the Council elected to postpone *any* decision for a few centuries in order to see how Aliera turned out, and for the interim, changed who the Heir was so that there would be a clear succession to someone who was not in any way problematic. > > Also, given Verra's abilities, it's possible that Aliera's genes are, in > fact, 100% Dragon (or near enough that even the best Athyra sorcerers > cannot distinguish the difference). It occurs to me that part of her testimony might have been to mention that she assisted in the creation of Dragaerans and of the first of the House of the Dragon, in the first place. Heh. But still. Since not all of the Dragon Council would have the expertise to evaluate Verra's statements, there may well have been some who felt less than willing to commit themselves immediately. [ snip stuff about Tortaalik influencing the Dragon Council, about which I have strong doubts, but no further argument than what I have already made ] > > > However, I can't believe that there was really any other plan than > > to have Norathar's parents murdered, under cover of a battle with > > Sethra. Whatever "discrediting" was done was simply to rouse > > the e'Lanyas to get angry enough to attack Dzur Mountain. > > >Yet how could the conspirators have been certain that K'laiyer and > >Miera would declare war, rather than a personal duel with Sethra > >Lavode, or for that matter, keeping their cool and demanding a full > >investigation into the allegations? > > Because they are Dragonlords. Insufficient basis, I nearly think. As you mentioned, Norathar almost attacked Sethra Lavode immediately; why might not her parents have done the same? And arguing in the other direction: A Dragonlord who attacks recklessly will be drawn out by the first feint, and defeated. Dragons have to keep in mind tactics and strategy and goals, not to mention the feasibility of the goal. What did K'laiyer & Miera want to achieve? Well, the removal of the stain against their honor. Now, if Sethra had insulted them on her own, attacking her might have been the only option to achieve that goal. But Sethra conveyed a piece of intelligence *to* the Dragon Council *from* someone else. Even if they somehow had defeated Sethra, that still leaves the Council, who may well have thought that the problem of legitimacy needed to be investigated *anyway* (which would probably have had the effect of removing K'laiyer as the Heir), and more importantly, it leaves the one or ones who gave Sethra the information in the first place which she brought to the Council. Cooler-headed Dragons might have seen that they were being attacked *through* Sethra Lavode, not by Sethra Lavode, and worked to find out who the real enemy was, making the investigation into the truth, and the defense of the truth, their own personal war. > >I suspect that the SiG may have used her sneaky Yendi manipulation > >skills to goad and insult K'laiyer into intemperate action, perhaps by > >intercepting messengers and rewriting their messages. > > Possible, but I doubt it was needed. Remember how Norathar reacted when > she found out Sethra was the one who made the accusation? A Dragon to the > core. Yes - and recall that Norathar was talked out of seeking immediate revenge. Given time for the immediate rage to subside, the next step is to figure out what is really going on. Wars are won not just by attacking, but by figuring out who to attack, and how to attack them. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 21:45:03 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 00:45:03 -0400 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: <13ba01c69636$b26a2920$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: >From: "Scott Schultz" >To: "'Dragaera List'" >Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:01:48 -0700 > >So, getting back to Dragaera, who does the Empress turn to if she needs >someone dead and a war is the wrong way to go about it? If someone needs >assassinating for the good of the Empire, how does the job get parceled >out? Sounds like a job for a Lavode. Granted, they were discontinued for a long time, but they were charged with keeping an eye on the "underground" aspects of life in the Empire, and, how was that worded, fundamentally non-military threats to the Empire, were they not? Nowadays, I would imagine a Jhereg "noble" might get the information, but the Lavodes sound like the perfect way to go about that business, and that's probably one of the reasons for their creation. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 23 06:57:34 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (Jeff) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 06:57:34 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Hall" To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 9:45 PM Subject: RE: How is House Jhereg governed? > > Sounds like a job for a Lavode. Granted, they were discontinued for a long > time, but they were charged with keeping an eye on the "underground" aspects > of life in the Empire, and, how was that worded, fundamentally non-military > threats to the Empire, were they not? Nowadays, I would imagine a Jhereg > "noble" might get the information, but the Lavodes sound like the perfect > way to go about that business, and that's probably one of the reasons for > their creation. > > Except most Dragons and Dzur wouldn't stoop to assassination. jeff -won't stoop to assassination either, as lying prone with a rifle is much easier on his back. From incubusyouth at hotmail.com Fri Jun 23 07:11:17 2006 From: incubusyouth at hotmail.com (S. Hall) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:11:17 -0400 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "Jeff" >To: >Subject: Re: How is House Jhereg governed? >Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 06:57:34 -0700 > > >Except most Dragons and Dzur wouldn't stoop to assassination. > >jeff >-won't stoop to assassination either, as lying prone with a rifle is much >easier on his back. Well, I guess I should have been clearer =P I imagine hiring an assassin would fall under the "jurisdiction" of a Lavode, at least if they are as immersed in the Organization as Sethra. Even if the Council runs House Jhereg in the nobility aspect as well, going through a Lavode who is friends with an assassin that owes them favors is much more circumspect, and leaves out the chance of being blackmailed for the services rendered From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 23 07:48:05 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:48:05 -0600 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449BFF25.5080801@brazee.net> S. Hall wrote: >>From: "Jeff" >>To: >>Subject: Re: How is House Jhereg governed? >>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 06:57:34 -0700 >> >> >>Except most Dragons and Dzur wouldn't stoop to assassination. >> >>jeff >>-won't stoop to assassination either, as lying prone with a rifle is much >>easier on his back. > >Well, I guess I should have been clearer =P I imagine hiring an assassin >would fall under the "jurisdiction" of a Lavode, at least if they are as >immersed in the Organization as Sethra. Even if the Council runs House >Jhereg in the nobility aspect as well, going through a Lavode who is friends >with an assassin that owes them favors is much more circumspect, and leaves >out the chance of being blackmailed for the services rendered > > > "Most Dragons and Dzur" does not include people with higher duties such as Lavode. I suspect a Dzur emperor wouldn't be a typical Dzur either if atypical behavior is best for the empire. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 23 08:44:31 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:44:31 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <23c301c696db$eb8739f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >It is implied in the story that he's (more or less) in the Jhereg >Council's pocket, so I don't know if it's really possible to separate the >council from the overall house leadership. Yeah, the more I consider it, the more I'm inclined to agree, based on what we've seen in the books. I think I was just enamored with the idea that the top guy in the Jhereg might not be a "mafioso" at all, but some courtier-type who is so ruthless and competent at what he does that he's capable of keeping the other branches of the House in check most of the time. >The mysterious "number one" of the Jhereg mentions only a vague and >fleeting reference at the beginning of /Jhereg/ when Vlad is trying to >figure out who the Demon is hiring him to kill. "Who is number one?" "You are number six." Sorry, geek siezure is past now. :^) >I wonder how much the events of /Issola/ may have affected this worldview? Anyone can be killed. I don't suppose that having a Great Weapon to protect his soul will be likely to make Vlad any less careful about avoiding death whenever feasible. The trouble he got into with the Jhereg was a case of passion and desperation. If going after the head of the Organization is a sure death sentence under normal circumstances, I doubt that having a Great Weapon will change those odds significantly enough to warrant taking the job in cold blood. >The Jhereg are (or were when the house was founded) the intelligence corps >of the Empire. Scouts, and such. This is the natural area for spies and >assassins to grow out of, of course, so it's likely that the Jhereg as a >House once filled the role now occupied by the Imperial Surveillance >Corps, Special Tasks Group, Third Floor Relic, etc. >Does House Jhereg still serve this function? Perhaps. But I doubt it. The >Warlord likely wants more direct (and reliable) control over his agents. Very good point. With the changeover in Emperors every millenium or so on average, there probably isn't a reliable need for a "personal spy network" on the part of the Emperor. A House that felt the need for such things would come pre-equipped with it. The rest might or might not feel the need. >>As a side benefit, the other Houses have someone marginally respectible to >>go to as an intermediary when they need something unsavory done. >How many of the other Houses would really condone assassination? Athyra, >Chreotha, Orca, maybe? >I can't really see the Lyorn, Phoenix, Dragons, Hawks, Iorich, Issola, >Tiassa et al having much use for such services. Ah, in this case I was thinking of individuals rather than House representatives. If you wanted to hire an assassin or contact a loan shark or arrange for an invitation to an upscale casino, you wouldn't want to be seen walking around the bad parts of Adrilankha to do it. You'd want someone you could invite over for an afternoon meal, some hint-laced conversation, and the problem dealt with in a discreet and plausibly deniable manner. I imagine that the non-Organization nobles already serve this purpose reasonably well, even if they have no other power or use in the House. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 09:42:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:42:31 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: <23c301c696db$eb8739f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/23/06 08:44 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: How is House Jhereg governed? >"Who is number one?" "You are number six." > >Sorry, geek siezure is past now. :^) "Who's side are you on?!?!" "That would be telling." >Anyone can be killed. I don't suppose that having a Great Weapon to protect >his soul will be likely to make Vlad any less careful about avoiding death >whenever feasible. The trouble he got into with the Jhereg was a case of >passion and desperation. If going after the head of the Organization is a >sure death sentence under normal circumstances, I doubt that having a Great >Weapon will change those odds significantly enough to warrant taking the job >in cold blood. Well, Vlad seems to be past the murderer-for-hire stage of his life at this point, in any event. I'm just curious if he would be able (or even willing) to take on "number one", given the resources now at his disposal, if it were to become the path that desparation required and opportunity presented. >>I can't really see the Lyorn, Phoenix, Dragons, Hawks, Iorich, Issola, >>Tiassa et al having much use for such services. > >Ah, in this case I was thinking of individuals rather than House >representatives. If you wanted to hire an assassin or contact a loan shark >or arrange for an invitation to an upscale casino, you wouldn't want to be >seen walking around the bad parts of Adrilankha to do it. You'd want >someone you could invite over for an afternoon meal, some hint-laced >conversation, and the problem dealt with in a discreet and plausibly >deniable manner. Or if you are, say, a discredited Tsalmoth noble out for revenge against a certain group of friends responsible for your ouster from favor with the emperor? If it were me, I'd probably get my half-breed daughter, and a group of Orca and Jhereg assassins together in a cabaret in the Underside and plot my revenge under an assumed name. Or if I was avoiding the seamier parts of town, I might wine and dine a young and naieve (and especially non-descript) Jhereg assassin with an Eastern name in an upscale Inn near the Silver market. Excuse me. I've been re-reading "Five Hundred Years After" so these examples are at the front of my mind. I guess my point is that we have some obvious text examples of how a noble goes about recruiting an assassin when the need arises, and it seems to be on a strictly free-lance, individual basis. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 23 10:02:07 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:02:07 -0600 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? Message-ID: <449C1E8F.9070701@brazee.net> On 10:42 AM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Great > > >>Weapon will change those odds significantly enough to warrant > taking the job in cold blood. > > > Well, Vlad seems to be past the murderer-for-hire stage of his life > at this point, in any event. At least his payment needs to be of a different quality. It's no longer about money. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 11:02:49 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:02:49 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/22/06 04:17 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Adron and the Dragon Council >Well, yes, that's my point. I'm not trying to say that it was >asserted that Aliera was not legitimate, only that the whole business >was sufficiently unusual that the Council elected to postpone *any* >decision for a few centuries in order to see how Aliera turned out, >and for the interim, changed who the Heir was so that there would be a >clear succession to someone who was not in any way problematic. Well, it's not an unreasonable theory. I see no solid evidence for or against it. >It occurs to me that part of her testimony might have been to mention >that she assisted in the creation of Dragaerans and of the first of >the House of the Dragon, in the first place. Heh. What, so now Verra is Kieron's mom too? But that means that if Kieron and Aliera... uh... eww. >But still. Since not all of the Dragon Council would have the >expertise to evaluate Verra's statements, there may well have been >some who felt less than willing to commit themselves immediately. Surely you're not suggesting a Dragon would be cautious and tenative in his actions? Well, okay, an older Dragonlord might. > >Yet how could the conspirators have been certain that K'laiyer and > >Miera would declare war, rather than a personal duel with Sethra > >Lavode, or for that matter, keeping their cool and demanding a full > >investigation into the allegations? > > Because they are Dragonlords. >Insufficient basis, I nearly think. As you mentioned, Norathar almost >attacked Sethra Lavode immediately; why might not her parents have >done the same? Well, Sethra was in the same room with Norathar at the time. Norathar's parents would have had to get at Sethra by attacking Dzur Mountain, which would require an army, hence, war would have been inevitable. >if Sethra had insulted them on her own, attacking her might have been >the only option to achieve that goal. But Sethra conveyed a piece of >intelligence *to* the Dragon Council *from* someone else. Even if >they somehow had defeated Sethra, that still leaves the Council, who >may well have thought that the problem of legitimacy needed to be >investigated *anyway* (which would probably have had the effect of >removing K'laiyer as the Heir), and more importantly, it leaves the >one or ones who gave Sethra the information in the first place which >she brought to the Council. Well, if we were talking about an Issola, then certainly. Or even an older, wisened Dragonlord might hold back and not attack immediately. K'laiyer e'Lanya and Lady Meira were apparently realtively young Dragons, however (based on the fact that Norathar was still a baby at the time). Also, if we use Norathar's later actions as an indication of how her parents were likely to have behaved, it seems that these e'Lanyas were not the sort of Dragonlords to hold back. I'm sure that the SiG would have studied the temperments of her victims, and would have taken this into account in her plans. >Cooler-headed Dragons might have seen that they were being attacked >*through* Sethra Lavode, not by Sethra Lavode, and worked to find out >who the real enemy was, making the investigation into the truth, and >the defense of the truth, their own personal war. Yes, cooler-headed Dragons might have. No argument there. >Yes - and recall that Norathar was talked out of seeking immediate >revenge. Given time for the immediate rage to subside, the next step >is to figure out what is really going on. Wars are won not just by >attacking, but by figuring out who to attack, and how to attack them. Talked out of seeking immediate revenge... By Sethra. The oldest and most experienced Dragonlord in the Empire. And probably even then it was only the fact that Iceflame was at hand, that Sethra was in her own lair, and that Norathar's closest friend in the world (Cawti) was by this time quite friendly with a close friend of Sethra's (Vlad) that was enough to make her stop long enough to listen to Sethra's advice. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 23 10:59:32 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:59:32 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <260601c696ee$c857add0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I guess my point is that we have some obvious text examples of how a noble >goes about recruiting an assassin when the need arises, and it seems to be >on a strictly free-lance, individual basis. Point taken, though I was thinking of more mundane examples. Somebody needs a loan on the hush-hush, or wants to acquire some item that his neighbor owns, or just wants some ostensibly illegal "action" that's in keeping with his station. These are the petty sorts of dealings that make up the bread and butter of The Organization by the sorts of people who, I'd imagine, don't usually have the connections that Greycat clearly had or developed once he had the need. Actually, if we believe Vlad, House Jhereg rarely "works" outside of the House. I'd lean towards labeling Greycat as an aberration, primarily because he was out of favor and therefore wasn't making any pretense at "honor". He was essentially a Jhereg in action, if not in fact. Given his obvious organizational skills despite his setbacks, I wonder how far he'd have gotten if he'd been willing to settle for a place in the Organization instead of trying to recover his position at Court? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 11:18:40 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:18:40 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: <260601c696ee$c857add0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/23/06 10:59 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: How is House Jhereg governed? >Actually, if we believe Vlad, House Jhereg rarely "works" outside of the >House. I'd lean towards labeling Greycat as an aberration, primarily because >he was out of favor and therefore wasn't making any pretense at "honor". He >was essentially a Jhereg in action, if not in fact. Given his obvious >organizational skills despite his setbacks, I wonder how far he'd have >gotten if he'd been willing to settle for a place in the Organization >instead of trying to recover his position at Court? Well, since most Jhereg in the organization at the time were operating in Dragaera City, he probably would have lived at least a few minutes longer than he actually did. But, given that he was a Tsalmoth, the idea of his giving up on regaining his former position and accepting life as a Jhereg seems pretty unlikely. Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:26:27 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:26:27 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: <23c301c696db$eb8739f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <23c301c696db$eb8739f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/23/06, Scott Schultz wrote: . > > Ah, in this case I was thinking of individuals rather than House > representatives. If you wanted to hire an assassin or contact a loan shark > or arrange for an invitation to an upscale casino, you wouldn't want to be > seen walking around the bad parts of Adrilankha to do it. You'd want > someone you could invite over for an afternoon meal, some hint-laced > conversation, and the problem dealt with in a discreet and plausibly > deniable manner. There's also the possibility that (if one is upscale enough to have staff) one could order a trusted underling to make the necessary contact, in whatever part of town is necessary. Come to think of it, hasn't Vlad been to an upscale part of town in order to meet someone fairly high up in the Jhereg? Once a Jhereg has risen high enough, he can afford to live whereever he wants, but he would still maintain his contacts with the lower-class Jhereg, if only so they pay him. Deals could be made with the higher-ups, and then passed down the social chain to actually be implemented. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 11:42:14 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:42:14 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/23/06 11:26 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: How is House Jhereg governed? >Come to think of it, hasn't Vlad been to an upscale part of town in >order to meet someone fairly high up in the Jhereg? Once a Jhereg has >risen high enough, he can afford to live whereever he wants, but he >would still maintain his contacts with the lower-class Jhereg, if only >so they pay him. Deals could be made with the higher-ups, and then >passed down the social chain to actually be implemented. In fact, this was established as the normal ways things operate very early in /Jhereg/ when Vlad expressed surprise that the Demon would contract with him (er, with his 'Friend', I mean) directly, rather than by going through about 4 levels of intermediaries. Also, we see this reinforced in Teckla when Bajinok approaches Vlad to (presumably) kill Franz, on behalf of Herth (Who may have been acting on behalf of Torronan, who may have been taking orders from Boralinoi...). Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 23 11:43:08 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:43:08 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <26ea01c696f4$df9294f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Come to think of it, hasn't Vlad been to an upscale part of town in >order to meet someone fairly high up in the Jhereg? Once a Jhereg has >risen high enough, he can afford to live whereever he wants, but he >would still maintain his contacts with the lower-class Jhereg, if only >so they pay him. Deals could be made with the higher-ups, and then >passed down the social chain to actually be implemented. Yeah, the more I examine things the less likely it seems that there's some actual "non-Business" end of the House of any significance. Everything's Business in one way or another unless they are people, Eastern or Dragaeran, who happen through circumstance to be "noble" without ever being recruited into the Organization. Vlad's father was one of these, apparently. They took his money but otherwise ignored him, barring some revelation about Taltos Sr. that we haven't been given yet. I wonder if Taltos Sr. ever took it into his head to visit his baronetcy? The only question I've got left is where the Left Hand fits into the greater scheme of things. It seems _Dzur_ might shed some light on that topic. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:50:02 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:50:02 -0700 Subject: Adron and the Dragon Council In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/23/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" wrote: > > >It occurs to me that part of her testimony might have been to mention > >that she assisted in the creation of Dragaerans and of the first of > >the House of the Dragon, in the first place. Heh. > > What, so now Verra is Kieron's mom too? > Snort. Kieron isn't the first Dragon. Recall that there were the tribes before there were Houses. And what I actually *meant* was that Verra did the gruntwork of loading up the genetic sequencers, and pushed the buttons that modified and combined genes, and tended the results in the incubators. You know - lab-work. Grad student stuff. JENOINE: Verra, you ignorant defective clone, don't change the parameters of experiment Q-17! Can't you follow simple directions?! VERRA: One day I'll show you - show you all!!! Bwahahahaha! JENOINE: And stop laughing maniacally! > >But still. Since not all of the Dragon Council would have the > >expertise to evaluate Verra's statements, there may well have been > >some who felt less than willing to commit themselves immediately. > > Surely you're not suggesting a Dragon would be cautious and tenative in > his actions? > > Well, okay, an older Dragonlord might. Consider the self-control exhibited by the Dragons in /Dragon/. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 11:53:48 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:53:48 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: <26ea01c696f4$df9294f0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/23/06 11:43 AM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: How is House Jhereg governed? >Yeah, the more I examine things the less likely it seems that there's some >actual "non-Business" end of the House of any significance. Everything's >Business in one way or another unless they are people, Eastern or Dragaeran, >who happen through circumstance to be "noble" without ever being recruited >into the Organization. Vlad's father was one of these, apparently. They took >his money but otherwise ignored him, barring some revelation about Taltos >Sr. that we haven't been given yet. Here's a "to the point" piece of textev from /FHYA/ (page 393, paperback): Greycat (To Dunaan): "The House of Jhereg, as you know better than I, is a fiction. That group of entrepeneurs of which you are a member controls the House, and runs it like a business." This seems pretty clear. >I wonder if Taltos Sr. ever took it into his head to visit his baronetcy? hm. Probably not. Doesn't seem to be a "Dragaeran" thing to do. >The only question I've got left is where the Left Hand fits into the greater >scheme of things. It seems _Dzur_ might shed some light on that topic. Indeed. Looking forward to it immensely. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 23 12:04:33 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:04:33 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <26eb01c696f7$dd6d3c90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Well, since most Jhereg in the organization at the time were operating in >Dragaera City, he probably would have lived at least a few minutes longer >than he actually did. Touche! :-P >But, given that he was a Tsalmoth, the idea of his giving up on regaining >his former position and accepting life as a Jhereg seems pretty unlikely. "Tsalmoth maintains, though none know how." Interesting, I'd never considered that aspect of his personality as part of his motivations. I suppose a "bad" Tsalmoth (in the sense that Teldra describes young Issola as "obsequious to the point of annoyance") would be one who set his heart on some goal to the point of self destruction and/or the destruction of everything and everyone in his way. I wonder how many Tsalmoth reigns have ended because of the near destruction of the Empire as a result of some inability of the Emporer to back off and see reason about something he wanted? I guess I'd picture Abdiel as the archetypical "bad Tsalmoth". (Abdiel was the antagonist in _To Reign in Hell_ who catalyzed the destruction of Heaven because his plan to gain favor with Yahweh ran out of control and snowballed into something much bigger than he'd ever originally planned.) From philiph at slac.stanford.edu Fri Jun 23 12:29:01 2006 From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: radio silence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > [snipped] I expect I won't be commenting here for a while because of this: http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2006/06/happy-fathers-day-to-me.html In voting matters I assign Davdi my proxy, except where appropriate. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 23 12:38:06 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:38:06 -0700 Subject: radio silence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27af01c696fc$8d319640$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Grats on the new mouth to feed. Hope you're one of those people who can get by on power naps. ;-) From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 12:59:39 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:59:39 -0700 Subject: How is House Jhereg governed? (TRiH minor spoilers) In-Reply-To: <26eb01c696f7$dd6d3c90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/23/06 12:04 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject RE: How is House Jhereg governed? >>But, given that he was a Tsalmoth, the idea of his giving up on regaining >>his former position and accepting life as a Jhereg seems pretty unlikely. > >"Tsalmoth maintains, though none know how." Interesting, I'd never >considered that aspect of his personality as part of his motivations. Almost all the characters in Dragaera are driven by the characteristics of their House... SKZB is pretty consistent with that. >I suppose a "bad" Tsalmoth (in the sense that Teldra describes young Issola >as "obsequious to the point of annoyance") would be one who set his heart on >some goal to the point of self destruction and/or the destruction of >everything and everyone in his way. I wonder how many Tsalmoth reigns have >ended because of the near destruction of the Empire as a result of some >inability of the Emporer to back off and see reason about something he >wanted? I've put together some mild speculation on the wikicity on how the cycle changes for each house, based on their strengths and weaknesses. It's a surprisingly natural transition in most cases; in almost every instance a staid and restrained house takes over from a very aggressive and active one (and vice versa, of course). Tsalmoth emperors, in this hypothesis, typically cause their own downfall in exactly the manner you have suggested. (After taking over from an Issola emperor who has become paralyzed into inaction by being overly gracious.) Read more in the Lyorn Records: http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Tsalmoth >I guess I'd picture Abdiel as the archetypical "bad Tsalmoth". (Abdiel was >the antagonist in _To Reign in Hell_ who catalyzed the destruction of Heaven >because his plan to gain favor with Yahweh ran out of control and snowballed >into something much bigger than he'd ever originally planned.) Yes, Abdiel was a bit like a Tsalmoth... But I'd say he was even more like a Yendi. In any case, his plots eventually fell apart, and it was Satan and Yaweh's philosophical disagreement that really caused the war to spiral out of control. I would contend that even without Abdiel's shenanigans, this philosophical difference would have eventually caused a war between Yaweh and Satan anyway. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 23 13:00:45 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:00:45 -0600 Subject: radio silence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449C486D.30402@brazee.net> Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 22 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> [snipped] > >I expect I won't be commenting here for a while because of this: >http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2006/06/happy-fathers-day-to-me.html > >In voting matters I assign Davdi my proxy, except where appropriate. > > > > Congratulations. My sister made her husband a father on father's day on 1986. That's the earliest possibly father's day, my birthday is on the latest possible father's day. She had a Father's Day card with her just in case. Three of my grandchildren were born in late December. From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 23 13:14:05 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:14:05 -0400 Subject: radio silence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E568C72-CB7D-4CA2-9C45-3D27A466AB1B@mac.com> On Jun 23, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> [snipped] > > I expect I won't be commenting here for a while because of this: > http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2006/06/happy-fathers-day-to-me.html > > In voting matters I assign Davdi my proxy, except where appropriate. > listinfo/dragaera Mazel tov! THe first two months are the hardest, then it gets worse! From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 23 13:19:20 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 13:19:20 -0700 Subject: radio silence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/23/06, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2006, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > > [snipped] > > I expect I won't be commenting here for a while because of this: > http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2006/06/happy-fathers-day-to-me.html I nearly think that congratulations are entirely in order. Not to mention felicitations, and wishes for many years and good health for all involved. > In voting matters I assign Davdi my proxy, except where appropriate. I shall endeavor to carry out with all due diligence the weighty responsibility that this great honor entails. From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 23 13:17:07 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 13:17:07 -0700 Subject: To Reign in Hell (TRiH minor spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <282501c69702$00cef610$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I would contend that even without Abdiel's shenanigans, this philosophical >difference would have eventually caused a war between Yaweh and Satan >anyway. We'll never know, of course, but I think part of the point of the story (and the poignancy of the conclusion) is that Yahweh and Satan could have settled their differences amicably if not for Abdiels "shenanigans". There's a point in the story where Satan is discussing things with Lucifer, if I remember correctly. Lucifer says something like "So, your job is to instruct and inspire, and kick people in the butt if they need it." and Satan says (paraphrase) "You make it sound better than Yahweh did. He sounded like he wanted me to be a spy and a tattletale." At this point Satan and Beelzebub resolve to talk to Yahweh about their misgivings and then things happen and the snowball starts rolling shortly thereafter. Without Abdiel's interference, Satan and Yahweh would eventually have discussed things over lunch and either sorted things out or Satan would have regretfully declined the job. Even when he disagreed with Yahweh, Satan didn't foment open rebellion. The role of leader was more or less thrust upon him as things went from bad to worse. Rather like many real-life revolutions, I imagine. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 23 13:47:55 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 13:47:55 -0700 Subject: To Reign in Hell (TRiH minor spoilers) In-Reply-To: <282501c69702$00cef610$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/23/06 01:17 PM To "'Dragaera List'" cc Subject To Reign in Hell (TRiH minor spoilers) >>I would contend that even without Abdiel's shenanigans, this philosophical >>difference would have eventually caused a war between Yaweh and Satan >>anyway. > >We'll never know, of course, but I think part of the point of the story (and >the poignancy of the conclusion) is that Yahweh and Satan could have settled >their differences amicably if not for Abdiels "shenanigans". There's a point >in the story where Satan is discussing things with Lucifer, if I remember >correctly. Lucifer says something like "So, your job is to instruct and >inspire, and kick people in the butt if they need it." and Satan says >(paraphrase) "You make it sound better than Yahweh did. He sounded like he >wanted me to be a spy and a tattletale." At this point Satan and Beelzebub >resolve to talk to Yahweh about their misgivings and then things happen and >the snowball starts rolling shortly thereafter. >Without Abdiel's interference, Satan and Yahweh would eventually have >discussed things over lunch and either sorted things out or Satan would have >regretfully declined the job. Even when he disagreed with Yahweh, Satan >didn't foment open rebellion. The role of leader was more or less thrust >upon him as things went from bad to worse. Rather like many real-life >revolutions, I imagine. Possibly true in the specifics, I was thinking somewhat longer term. Given the nature of the "Plan", it was going to be necessary for Yaweh to force the other angels to participate. Satan, while vassiclating about whether or not this was right for much of the book, finally comes down on the side of "We have no right to force them to do this." Thus, Satan's ideology was directly opposed to Yaweh's plan (for which Yaweh was willing to sacrifice everything, including his integrity). I don't think Abdiel's actions (or lack thereof) would have changed Satan's mind on this key decision. The only authority Yaweh could draw upon to justify forcing the other angels (whether or not Satan helped him or opposed him) was to claim that being first made him better than all the other angels. The inevitable result of this claim was the war between Yaweh and the non-cooperative angels. Perhaps Satan would have actually stayed on the sidelines during this conflict, but I cannot see him siding with Yaweh in forcing the other angels to accept Yaweh as supreme ruler of heaven (which, ultimately, was the sticking point that kept them from reconciling their differences). Abdiel certainly accelerated things, but even on the most amicable of terms, the only way in which Satan and Yaweh would not be drawn into ideological conflict here was if all the angels in heaven were unanimous (or very nearly so, anyway) in their support of the plan. Which was, of course, never the case. Majikjon From inuyashadontask at netscape.net Sat Jun 24 17:48:42 2006 From: inuyashadontask at netscape.net (tom sausman) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:48:42 -0400 Subject: Paarfl? Message-ID: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> Who is Parrfi? I thought it was an alais for Brust during his 5 volume triology. Sorry for the spelling. -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From pulmon at mac.com Sat Jun 24 18:26:56 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:26:56 -0400 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> References: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9624B2F7-9BD1-4E6B-9463-5A9485928119@mac.com> On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:48 PM, tom sausman wrote: > Who is Parrfi? I thought it was an alais for Brust during his 5 > volume triology. Sorry for the spelling. > -- I think it is a term that means something neither meat nor milk.... From almagaiz at gmail.com Sat Jun 24 19:36:12 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:36:12 -0400 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <9624B2F7-9BD1-4E6B-9463-5A9485928119@mac.com> References: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> <9624B2F7-9BD1-4E6B-9463-5A9485928119@mac.com> Message-ID: Paarfi is a Dragaeran write of questionable accuracy, but his books are translated by Steve into the ones we read. That is the book explanation. He's really just Steve's excuse to wright in Dumas' style and act funny. On 6/24/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:48 PM, tom sausman wrote: > > > Who is Parrfi? I thought it was an alais for Brust during his 5 > > volume triology. Sorry for the spelling. > > -- > > I think it is a term that means something neither meat nor milk.... > From davdisil at gmail.com Sun Jun 25 00:05:30 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:05:30 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <9624B2F7-9BD1-4E6B-9463-5A9485928119@mac.com> References: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> <9624B2F7-9BD1-4E6B-9463-5A9485928119@mac.com> Message-ID: On 6/24/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > I think it is a term that means something neither meat nor milk.... > Hm. Perhaps Paarfl is a character from that famous play, /Teckla on the Roof/? If I had a title, Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. If I were a titled man. [later] Have I made a match for you! He's handsome, he's young! Alright, he's 2002. But he's a nice man, a good catch, true? And so on and so forth. From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Jun 25 06:58:58 2006 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 08:58:58 -0500 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060625135858.JFB16541.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> I really have to confess that after several years of lurking and occasionally posting, I'm STILL startled by the creativity some of you display. Kudos, davdi andy -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 2:06 AM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Paarfl? On 6/24/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > I think it is a term that means something neither meat nor milk.... > Hm. Perhaps Paarfl is a character from that famous play, /Teckla on the Roof/? If I had a title, Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. If I were a titled man. [later] Have I made a match for you! He's handsome, he's young! Alright, he's 2002. But he's a nice man, a good catch, true? And so on and so forth. From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jun 25 17:56:05 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20060626005605.97593.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- tom sausman wrote: > Who is Parrfi? I thought it was an alais for Brust during his 5 volume > triology. Sorry for the spelling. Paarfi is the "author" of the romances about Khaavren and his friends and his son, which are written in a quite different style from Brust's usual style(s), and are a pastiche of Alexandre Dumas' The Three Musketeers and its sequels. See - http://cracksandshards.com/jokes.html#Dumas : Dumas, Alexandre, p??re - http://cracksandshards.com/Paarfi_Dumas.html : Paarfi and Dumas - the two "About the Author" afterwords to The Phoenix Guards - the "About the Author" afterword to Five Hundred Years After [In Which Brust Interviews Paarfi and Advertises His Own Music, Paarfi Interviews Brust, And They Reach Agreement On at Least One Point, To Wit, Their Intense Mutual Dislike -- MAM, http://cracksandshards.com/contentsKF.html#FHYA ] (And all right, I won't ask about InuYasha, because I don't need to.) (And never mind that wisecrack about kosher food ["neither milk nor meat"]. "Paarfi", however misspelled, is not the same as "parve", however transliterated.) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jun 25 18:00:09 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: radio silence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060626010009.61791.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mazel tov! --- Philip Hart wrote: > I expect I won't be commenting here for a while because of this: > http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2006/06/happy-fathers-day-to-me.html m a m __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Jun 25 18:16:32 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:16:32 -0400 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <20060626005605.97593.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> <20060626005605.97593.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060625211624.0261e388@cox.net> At 08:56 PM 6/25/2006, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >(And all right, I won't ask about InuYasha, because I don't need to.) Huh? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From lincicum at comcast.net Sun Jun 25 18:19:06 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:19:06 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060625211624.0261e388@cox.net> References: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> <20060626005605.97593.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20060625211624.0261e388@cox.net> Message-ID: <449F360A.3040108@comcast.net> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 08:56 PM 6/25/2006, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> (And all right, I won't ask about InuYasha, because I don't need to.) > > Huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuyasha Majikjon From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jun 25 19:03:58 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <449F3394.2080709@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20060626020358.27547.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- tom sausman wrote: --------------------------------- So Parrfi is frictional? He is like "Homer" but not like real? He is fictional. He is Brust's invention, a character resembling Alexandre Dumas Sr. to serve as the imaginary author of the romances. If you haven't read those sections of Cracks and Shards that I pointed you to, do so. See also - http://cracksandshards.com/cracks.html#Brusts : Brusts, plural -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jun 25 19:06:08 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Size as a House Characteristic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060626020608.69147.qmail@web31001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Updating an earlier conversation, I found an interesting reference in > /Five Hundred Years After/ that seems to imply that height (or rather > size) is indeed one of the indicators as to house identity. > > This comes from the first description of Grita, page 66, paperback: > > "Yet the roundness of her eyes gave the lie to this conclusion, and, > furthermore, her complexion (which was nearly the color of an unripe > olive) and her size spoke of the house of Tsalmoth." > > While it's a bit unclear if this indicates that Tsalmoth are especially > large or especially small, it does indicate the one or the other is at > least a factor for a Dragaeran who's trying to figure out what House > another Dragaeran is a member of. > > Majikjon "She was of middle years, certainly not more than six hundred, and small, with hair the color of new straw." (FHYA pb p. 65, describing Grita) -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Sun Jun 25 19:26:11 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's price of $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 I thank you for your kind attention. -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Mon Jun 26 06:03:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:03:59 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/25/06 12:05 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Paarfl? >On 6/24/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> >> I think it is a term that means something neither meat nor milk.... >> > >Hm. Perhaps Paarfl is a character from that famous play, /Teckla on the Roof/? > > >If I had a title, >Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum >All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. >If I were a titled man. > >[later] > >Have I made a match for you! >He's handsome, he's young! >Alright, he's 2002. >But he's a nice man, a good catch, true? > >And so on and so forth. No, no, I think you're thinking of Tevna. Furnace-rise, Furnace-set, Furnace-rise, Furnace-set, Slowly, through the cycle... Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jun 26 10:37:15 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:37:15 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <449DDD6A.6070600@netscape.net> Message-ID: <41f701c69947$2a0d99e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Paarfi is the author of the Khaavren Romances, much as S. Morgenstern is the author of _The Silent Gondoliers_. (Sadly, I've lost my hardcover that actually had S. Morganstern printed on the spine as the author.) S. Morganstern might be more popularly known as the author of _The Princess Bride_ but that is ostensibly an abridgement of the original by William Goldman so we never actually "meet" Mr. Morganstern. _The Silent Gondoliers_ is narrated by Morganstern himself; but I digress. The point being that Paarfi is as much a character in the Khaavren/Piro stories as any of the protagonists. He's only an alias for Brust inasmuch as Vlad is also an alias for Brust. In the Brustiverse, Paarfi is a real person. Vlad has read some of his books. You may also recall the interview between Paarfi and Brust if you think of one being an analog of the other. *heh* Of course, that doesn't mean that Paarfi isn't modeled after Steve. The business at the end of _Sethra Lavode_ where the guy writing the afterword talks about Paarfi entertaining a young groupie by attempting to teach a strange bird to curse, I believe it was - That sounds like a colorful description of Steve playing with his own bird, possibly even at a Sci-Fi convention. Anyway, while the more "colorful" side of Paarfi could be based on Brust to some extent, Paarfi himself is a character in his own right and not just "the author in Dragaeran clothing", IMO. -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of tom sausman Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 4:49 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Paarfl? Who is Parrfi? I thought it was an alais for Brust during his 5 volume triology. Sorry for the spelling. -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From scott at cjhunter.com Mon Jun 26 12:04:05 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:04:05 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <20060625135858.JFB16541.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: <585b01c69953$4b4e5d40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I really have to confess that after several years of lurking and >occasionally posting, I'm STILL startled by the creativity some of you >display. Kudos, davdi >andy Seconded. _Tekla on the Roof_ had me grinning like an idiot. I could imagine the entire production just based on those two song fragments. *heh* From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 12:47:07 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:47:07 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another place from which to buy his books? I pre-ordered mine from Amazon months ago, so it's too late for me, but for future reference...... On 6/25/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this > opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be > preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's price of > $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 > > I thank you for your kind attention. > > -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards > http://www.cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust fan website > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -- JoyJNicholson at gmail.com mwerble.livejournal.com From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 13:22:00 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:22:00 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/26/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" wrote: > > >On 6/24/06, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > >> > >> I think it is a term that means something neither meat nor milk.... > >> > > > >Hm. Perhaps Paarfl is a character from that famous play, > >/Teckla on the Roof/? > > > > > >If I had a title, > >Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum > >All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. > >If I were a titled man. > > > >[later] > > > >Have I made a match for you! > >He's handsome, he's young! > >Alright, he's 2002. > >But he's a nice man, a good catch, true? > > > >And so on and so forth. > > No, no, I think you're thinking of Tevna. > > Furnace-rise, > Furnace-set, > Furnace-rise, > Furnace-set, > Slowly, through the cycle... > Sure, it's Tevna who is the main character, and who sings that song, and the first one I quoted from. But Paarfl is in there too, as one of Tevna's daughter's love interest. As we hear in the famous chorus of: And such a son-in-law Like no-one ever saw The writer Paarfl Rundwald Of course, Paarfl is chronically unsuited for marriage, and wacky hijinks ensue. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 13:25:03 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:25:03 -0700 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <585b01c69953$4b4e5d40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <20060625135858.JFB16541.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> <585b01c69953$4b4e5d40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/26/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > >I really have to confess that after several years of lurking and > >occasionally posting, I'm STILL startled by the creativity some of you > >display. Kudos, davdi > > >andy > > Seconded. _Tekla on the Roof_ had me grinning like an idiot. I could imagine > the entire production just based on those two song fragments. *heh* > > Well, now I'm very nearly entirely blushing over here... From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jun 26 13:42:24 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:42:24 -0400 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: References: <20060625135858.JFB16541.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> <585b01c69953$4b4e5d40$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: Kenneth J. Gorelick, MD, FCCP President and Chief Operating Officer 1 Maplewood Drive Newtown Square, PA 19073 tel: 610-325-9253 fax: 610-325-9252 mobile: 610-659-8236 On Jun 26, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/26/06, Scott Schultz wrote: >> >I really have to confess that after several years of lurking and >> >occasionally posting, I'm STILL startled by the creativity some >> of you >> >display. Kudos, davdi >> >> >andy >> >> Seconded. _Tekla on the Roof_ had me grinning like an idiot. I >> could imagine >> the entire production just based on those two song fragments. *heh* >> >> > > Well, now I'm very nearly entirely blushing over here... You'll need to... Build a great big House with rooms by the dozen Right in the middle of the Air... From pulmon at mac.com Mon Jun 26 13:41:27 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:41:27 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36155D87-AB93-4E35-828F-F67196AFAA91@mac.com> On Jun 26, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Joy Nicholson wrote: > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our > Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another > place from which to buy his books? > > I pre-ordered mine from Amazon months ago, so it's too late for me, > but for future reference...... > > On 6/25/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this >> opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be >> preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's >> price of >> $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 >> >> I thank you for your kind attention. >> >> -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards >> http://www.cracksandshards.com >> a Steven Brust fan website >> >> I pre-ordered from Amazon months ago. Went to check one day, and my pre-order was gone! So I pre-ordered again. Went to check today--my pre-order is gone again! I think I may have to pre-order from someone reliable. Does C&S participate in the upside of this venture? Ken From wilson.max at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 14:25:16 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:25:16 -0700 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606261425o3d5c9231t527792eb72e86e10@mail.gmail.com> This is the first I've heard of this. I know of authors who feel understandably uncomfortable with Amazon's policy of advertising cheaper, used copies of a book on the same page as new copies, and I've heard from other authors that books sold through Amazon get marked up substantially; but I've never heard any suggestion that author's royalties get marked down. SF author Jerry Pournelle's booklist links to Amazon (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reviews/books.htm), and one of his major foreign correspondents (Francis Hamit) writes occasionally about his experiences selling Amazon shorts, and neither has ever mentioned that an Amazon sale pays any less than any other chain. If true, it would be a bit alarming to those of us who are interested in making sure the bard gets paid. -Max Wilson On 6/26/06, Joy Nicholson wrote: > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our > Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another > place from which to buy his books? > > I pre-ordered mine from Amazon months ago, so it's too late for me, > but for future reference...... > > On 6/25/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this > > opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be > > preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's price of > > $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 > > > > I thank you for your kind attention. > > > > -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards > > http://www.cracksandshards.com > > a Steven Brust fan website > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > -- > JoyJNicholson at gmail.com > mwerble.livejournal.com > -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 14:45:28 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:45:28 -0700 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606261425o3d5c9231t527792eb72e86e10@mail.gmail.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> <2ddbda5f0606261425o3d5c9231t527792eb72e86e10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 6/26/06, Joy Nicholson wrote: > > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local > > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more > > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. On 6/26/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > This is the first I've heard of this. I know of authors who feel > understandably uncomfortable with Amazon's policy of advertising > cheaper, used copies of a book on the same page as new copies, and > I've heard from other authors that books sold through Amazon get > marked up substantially; but I've never heard any suggestion that > author's royalties get marked down. > A quick google (Amazon royalties) suggests that the large difference in royalties is being seen by authors who are using POD (Print On Demand) systems ( lulu.com is specified ). Since /Dzur/ is not a POD book, I don't think this issue is relevent to SKZB. Unless of course there is something else I didn't notice (the google effort was rather brief). From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Jun 26 15:21:24 2006 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:21:24 -0500 Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060626222123.YTPF12772.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> Very nearly entirely? Pray tell which parts aren't blushing? This seems to be a medical oddity we must pursue... andy -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 3:25 PM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Paarfl? On 6/26/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > >I really have to confess that after several years of lurking and > >occasionally posting, I'm STILL startled by the creativity some of you > >display. Kudos, davdi > > >andy > > Seconded. _Tekla on the Roof_ had me grinning like an idiot. I could imagine > the entire production just based on those two song fragments. *heh* > > Well, now I'm very nearly entirely blushing over here... From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 26 20:55:20 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:55:20 -0700 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44A0AC28.8010202@dreamcafe.com> Thanks for thinking of it, but no, I've never given it any thought. Joy Nicholson wrote: > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our > Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another > place from which to buy his books? > > I pre-ordered mine from Amazon months ago, so it's too late for me, > but for future reference...... > > On 6/25/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > >> Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this >> opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be >> preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's price of >> $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 >> >> I thank you for your kind attention. >> >> -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards >> http://www.cracksandshards.com >> a Steven Brust fan website >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > From almagaiz at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 05:54:30 2006 From: almagaiz at gmail.com (Louis Eastman) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:54:30 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <44A0AC28.8010202@dreamcafe.com> References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> <44A0AC28.8010202@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: He lives! On 6/26/06, skzb wrote: > > Thanks for thinking of it, but no, I've never given it any thought. > > Joy Nicholson wrote: > > > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local > > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more > > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our > > Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another > > place from which to buy his books? > > > > I pre-ordered mine from Amazon months ago, so it's too late for me, > > but for future reference...... > > > > On 6/25/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > >> Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this > >> opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be > >> preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's price of > >> $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/cracksandshar-20 > >> > >> I thank you for your kind attention. > >> > >> -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards > >> http://www.cracksandshards.com > >> a Steven Brust fan website > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > > > > > From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jun 27 07:03:01 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:03:01 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> <44A0AC28.8010202@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: ...and...he top posts! On Jun 27, 2006, at 8:54 AM, Louis Eastman wrote: > He lives! > On 6/26/06, skzb wrote: >> >> Thanks for thinking of it, but no, I've never given it any thought. >> >> Joy Nicholson wrote: >> >> > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local >> > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats >> more >> > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our >> > Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another >> > place from which to buy his books? >> > >> > I pre-ordered mine from Amazon months ago, so it's too late for me, >> > but for future reference...... >> > >> > On 6/25/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> > >> >> Good citizens, I beg your indulgence to allow me to utilize this >> >> opportunity to make a small commercial announcement. _Dzur_ can be >> >> preordered from Amazon through Cracks and Shards, for Amazon's >> price of >> >> $15.72 (plus shipping and possibly taxes), at >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301482/ >> cracksandshar-20 >> >> >> >> I thank you for your kind attention. >> >> >> >> -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards >> >> http://www.cracksandshards.com >> >> a Steven Brust fan website >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> Do You Yahoo!? >> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > listinfo/dragaera From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 27 07:46:12 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:46:12 -0700 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: References: <360751e50606200440vf15987y79ac79127a97ae67@mail.gmail.com> <20060626022611.73287.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2be528100606261247g7a398772lb38e6faea21d8695@mail.gmail.com> <44A0AC28.8010202@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <44A144B4.5030104@dreamcafe.com> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > ...and...he top posts! > > On Jun 27, 2006, at 8:54 AM, Louis Eastman wrote: > >> He lives! >> On 6/26/06, skzb wrote: >> > > Naturally. From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 5 12:58:55 2006 From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (J) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:58:55 -0400 Subject: Dzur review Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20060605/e780bcbb/attachment.asc -------------- next part -------------- From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 14:08:20 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <36155D87-AB93-4E35-828F-F67196AFAA91@mac.com> Message-ID: <20060627210820.95029.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > On Jun 26, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Joy Nicholson wrote: > > > Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local > > booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats more > > of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our > > Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another > > place from which to buy his books? I do not know. --- Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > I pre-ordered from Amazon months ago. Went to check one day, and my > pre-order was gone! So I pre-ordered again. Went to check today--my > pre-order is gone again! > > I think I may have to pre-order from someone reliable. Does C&S > participate in the upside of this venture? What do you mean? I have registered with Amazon, and from time to time I get a tiny check representing, essentially, a commission on the books that people have ordered from them through Cracks and Shards. That's my only connection to Amazon except as an occasional customer. -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com/ a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thnidu at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 14:09:51 2006 From: thnidu at yahoo.com (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paarfl? In-Reply-To: <20060626222123.YTPF12772.centrmmtao02.cox.net@Asminath> Message-ID: <20060627210951.33217.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- andy wrote: > Very nearly entirely? Pray tell which parts aren't blushing? This seems > to be a medical oddity we must pursue... > > andy The hair? -- Mark A. Mandel, proprietor, Cracks and Shards http://www.cracksandshards.com/ a Steven Brust fan website __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.max at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 14:14:29 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:14:29 -0700 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <20060627210820.95029.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <36155D87-AB93-4E35-828F-F67196AFAA91@mac.com> <20060627210820.95029.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606271414m44e10b0cv65cf3d560548faa1@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/06, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > --- Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > I pre-ordered from Amazon months ago. Went to check one day, and my > > pre-order was gone! So I pre-ordered again. Went to check today--my > > pre-order is gone again! > > > > I think I may have to pre-order from someone reliable. Does C&S > > participate in the upside of this venture? > > What do you mean? I have registered with Amazon, and from time to time I > get a tiny check representing, essentially, a commission on the books that > people have ordered from them through Cracks and Shards. That's my only > connection to Amazon except as an occasional customer. He's just saying that Amazon's web site is flaky, and I think asking whether C&S has a way to benefit from pre-orders through someone other than Amazon. Kenneth: I've never had a problem with pre-orders vanishing, but I know that Amazon does a lot of web-site customization targeted to specific customers; maybe your personal page is buggy. You could probably get this fixed if you emailed them. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Tue Jun 27 15:12:50 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:12:50 -0400 Subject: Dzur review In-Reply-To: <20060627210820.95029.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060627210820.95029.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kenneth J. Gorelick, MD, FCCP President and Chief Operating Officer 1 Maplewood Drive Newtown Square, PA 19073 tel: 610-325-9253 fax: 610-325-9252 mobile: 610-659-8236 On Jun 27, 2006, at 5:08 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> On Jun 26, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Joy Nicholson wrote: >> >>> Authors these days seem to often encourage people to buy from local >>> booksellers or non-Amazon online stores, saying that Amazon eats >>> more >>> of their (the author's) royalties than other venues do. Has Our >>> Venerated Author expressed an opinion on this or suggested another >>> place from which to buy his books? > > I do not know. > > --- Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > >> I pre-ordered from Amazon months ago. Went to check one day, and my >> pre-order was gone! So I pre-ordered again. Went to check today--my >> pre-order is gone again! >> >> I think I may have to pre-order from someone reliable. Does C&S >> participate in the upside of this venture? > > What do you mean? I have registered with Amazon, and from time to > time I > get a tiny check representing, essentially, a commission on the > books that > people have ordered from them through Cracks and Shards. That's my > only > connection to Amazon except as an occasional customer. > > That's what I meant. If you get $ out of the deal, I will order > through C&S, rather than an unknown capitalist! From howard at brazee.net Tue Jun 27 18:18:02 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:18:02 -0600 Subject: Styles of Speech Message-ID: <71m3a2hal3213kk4dvqo7um3ib0r5agqhr@4ax.com> I wonder how much of a style of speech we read about was really a style of writing, and how much was it typical of the way people talked. When Steve uses Paarfi to write, we see what style of writing was being used, but don't know if that speech was common. We can emulate a past style, where we have existing examples of that writing - but when we move into more alien venues - such as the future, it gets difficult. In the near future, we can play with language and style with works such as _Clockwork Orange_. But this doesn't make sense in the far future, where they might as well be speaking Babylonian. What we *can* do is emulate a Victorian style when we want to show a formal society. It won't be Victorian, but we get the flavor. This same trick was used in movies such as _Spartacus_, when they cast Americans as the slaves, and British as the rulers. We could hear the difference and play the game. I've read of people complaining about the casting of Sean Connery as Captain Marko Ramius in _The Hunt for Red October_. They didn't like the fact that Connery has a Scottish accent. But what they missed is that he was Lithuanian. In a ship full of Russians (played by non-Scoots), this was an important plot element. Having a Scott play that role reminded us of his difference (as they all spoke Russian in English). From inuyashadontask at netscape.net Wed Jun 28 00:01:27 2006 From: inuyashadontask at netscape.net (tom sausman) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:01:27 -0400 Subject: How? Message-ID: <44A22947.5030102@netscape.net> First let me state that the following statements will contain misspelled words, poor grammar, and vague sources, mostly due to the fact that I am dislactate and too lazy too go through all the books I have of "Brust" (I have does big three-in-one books). Thank you and apologizes in advance. Second: How are you gentlemen and I hope women able to "decode" the works of "Brust"/ "Paarfi", mainly the Vlad Taltos seris? For one instance the Seorli( I believe ) in "Dragon" which Morralon took after about Spellbreaker/Godslayer/Lady Tledra. Another how did Mario get out of "the paths of the dead" b/c Aleria was trap there as was the "orb" and Sethra became a vapmire. Also while Dereva was (presumely) that dragon during the fight with Jenione, was she the same one who was (I blieve) either upset or "it" reconzie Vlad when him and Dark Star went to reunited Aleria to the land of the living. Third: Do not miss understand I love Brust and the writings of Paarfi but to one such as my self they are too ambugious, and sometimes cliff-hangers. Such as the window(s) in Dark Star's tower, how did Verra get it there was it already a um what did the Demon and so-and-so ( sorry I forgot) a place where gods meterializes and the special portals ( the cave where Zekia/ Ziva inmuge from the "Halls of Judgement" -Sorry longer than should, but coursity killed the cat- -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Jun 28 07:43:23 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:43:23 -0400 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <44A22947.5030102@netscape.net> References: <44A22947.5030102@netscape.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060628102507.0262fec0@cox.net> At 03:01 AM 6/28/2006, tom sausman wrote: >First let me state that the following statements will contain >misspelled words, poor grammar, and vague sources, mostly due to the >fact that I am dislactate and too lazy too go through all the books >I have of "Brust" (I have does big three-in-one books). Thank you >and apologizes in advance. > >Second: How are you gentlemen and I hope women able to "decode" the >works of "Brust"/ "Paarfi", mainly the Vlad Taltos seris? For one >instance the Seorli( I believe ) in "Dragon" which Morralon took >after about Spellbreaker/Godslayer/Lady Tledra. Another how did >Mario get out of "the paths of the dead" b/c Aleria was trap there >as was the "orb" and Sethra became a vapmire. Also while Dereva was >(presumely) that dragon during the fight with Jenione, was she the >same one who was (I blieve) either upset or "it" reconzie Vlad when >him and Dark Star went to reunited Aleria to the land of the living. You just have to take a lot of what you read on faith. Once in a while, there is some deliberate misdirection, of course. I think that the stories narrated by Vlad are accurate to the extent Vlad knows what he is speaking of at the time he narrates the story. Vlad may be inaccurate in some of his statements, however, probably just because he doesn't really know, accurately, what is true. Paarfi is writing romance novels, not a history, just as Alexandre Dumas pere wrote _Les Trois Mousquetaires_ based on historical fact, with a lot of stuff added. Many of the characters really existed (D'Artagnan, Richelieu, Anne of Austria, Buckingham, etc.), but much of the story was invented. We can't really tell how much of the Paarfi romances is true and how much was invented, although there is this difference: Most of the people in the Paarfi romances are still alive at the time of Paarfi's writing, and all of Dumas's characters had been dead and gone for at least a century and a half. >Third: Do not miss understand I love Brust and the writings of >Paarfi but to one such as my self they are too ambugious, and >sometimes cliff-hangers. Such as the window(s) in Dark Star's tower, >how did Verra get it there was it already a um what did the Demon >and so-and-so ( sorry I forgot) a place where gods meterializes and >the special portals ( the cave where Zekia/ Ziva inmuge from the >"Halls of Judgement" I think that those things aren't meant to be explained, just taken at face value. These novels are fantastic fiction, not mainstream historicals. When you have gods and beings like the Jenoine, to say nothing of all sorts of fantastic creatures like cat-centaurs, Jhereg, dragons, etc., to say nothing of things like Castle Black, you certainly can't demand complete reality! -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 07:59:35 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:59:35 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! Message-ID: I have just been notified by the great Wikia gods that I am pretty much the only user who has edited the domain for the Lyorn Records wikia in the last 30 days. I hasten to point out that this is not actually correct, as Davdi Silverrock has made some contributions of his own during this time, but sadly, the other regular contributors to the site (including its founder) seem to have vanished... The point here is that the wikia managers need traffic (most especially, they need *proof* of traffic, in the form of users editing articles) to justify the continued existence of a wikia domain. (Being ad-driven, it's easy to justify server space for a site that generates traffic, but alas, I alone do not buy enough merchandise from their advertisers to be of much interest to them from a revenue standpoint.) This then, is a plea for help. If you have a free moment, visit the Lyorn Records, and make a contribution. It doesn't have to be a major rewrite of anything, just enough to show that many individual users are interested in the content the site provides. (It's much better to get 10 people making a minor spelling correction than 2 people writing full-length articles.) ...and while a one-time edit will help (and be greatly appreciated), taking a moment once a week or so to visit and tweak an article or two will do a lot to cement the longer-term survival of this tremendous Dragaera resource. For those of you unfamiliar with the Lyorn Records, check it out at: http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Among its useful attributes are articles on each house, plot summaries for all of the books, countless speculative articles, and my own personal pet project, the Dramatis Personae list (now with over 620 names!): http://dragaera.wikia.com/wiki/Meta:Dramatis_Personae If worse comes to worst, and the wikia is taken away, I will at least save this list (perhaps posting it on my own Dragaera site) but, alas, I cannot do the same for the rest of the articles on the wikia. Thank you very much for your time. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 10:37:11 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:37:11 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> If few people are modifying the wiki version, there may be little justification for it to remain a wiki, but that doesn't mean it can't be a static web page, does it? Cannot the Lyorn Records be exported? I admit, I've enjoyed perusing the page once or twice in the past, but I've never had a reason to edit anything. (In point of fact, I've never learned how to edit wikis, either, though I presume it's fairly simple.) However, if frequent edits are the only way to save the page, period, of course we'll edit it. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 28 10:37:20 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:37:20 -0700 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <44A22947.5030102@netscape.net> Message-ID: <351601c69ad9$81fb0410$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >For one >instance the Seorli( I believe ) in "Dragon" which >Morralon took after about Spellbreaker/Godslayer/Lady Tledra. If you're asking whether the Serioli in question was talking about Godslayer, then the answer would be a qualified "yes". I say "qualified" because he referred to "Remover of aspects of divinity" as something that didn't fully exist yet. To the Serioli, the Great Weapons were "people" in their own right. The following quote from _Dragon_ is telling: --- "Good day to you", said Morrolan, adding a sound at the end that we either the cough of a man with Juiner's Lung or the name of the Serioli we faced. "His name - your pardon - the Easterner's name is Vlad Taltos, the Jhereg is called Loiosh." "You don't mention the fourth, because we've met already; but why do you leave out the fifth? Because she is not altogether here?"... ...Morrolan said "Who is the fifth?" "Who indeed?", said the Serioli, nodding sagaciously as if Morrolan had said something wise. --- Given subsequent events, it seems the proper way to look at this exchange is that the Serioli, who evidently treated each Great Weapon as person in its own right, is interpreting Morollan's question as "Who is the personality template of Godslayer?" If you prefer, "Whose soul provides her personality?" Notice that the Serioli refers to Godslayer as "she" from the beginning. This all would make perfect sense to someone whose sense of time seems to have no trouble encompassing the past, present and future simultaneously. At this point in the exchange, he doesn't know that Morollan and Vlad have no clue about Godslayer. When Morollan is confused and Vlad has no objections when the Serioli says "But maybe I'm giving away secrets..." then he tries to explain in terms that they'll understand. >Another how did Mario get out of "the paths of the dead" b/c >Aleria was trap there as was the "orb" >and Sethra became a vapmire. On the one hand, keep in mind that officially we don't know anything about Mario. He may well be dead and reincarnated. Mario's reputation was based on his success at murdering the Emperor. His name is invoked in the name of lost causes. "Might as well hire Mario to do it." Nobody seems to actually know how to get hold of him. If he's "worked" since the Interregnum, it hasn't been reported to us except as rumor and speculation. He may not exist at all except as a legendary boogey man. Presuming that Paarfi is dependable on this point, we also know that Sethra was attempting to save him at the same time as she attempted to save Aliera and the Orb. The Orb arrived in The Halls of Judgement. Aliera's soul did not. Mario is a question mark. Assuming that he's really out and about (Steve apparently once suggested that Mario had shown up to visit Aliera "off-stage" just before a scene in, I think, Yendi), then he didn't escape the Halls - He never arrived there at all. Indeed, the strain of trying to put the Orb into the Halls while putting Mario and Aliera someplace outside of the Halls at the same time is likely what resulted in the loss of Aliera's soul. Aliera's body ended up in the Halls while her soul got trapped in a field, probably on the same spot that Mario landed. If true, it would also answer the question from a while back as to where Verra got a body to put Aliera's soul into later on. >Also while Dereva was (presumely) that >dragon during the fight with Jenione, was she the same one who was (I >blieve) either upset or "it" reconzie Vlad when him and Dark Star went >to reunited Aleria to the land of the living. Maybe, but there's no way to know. I suspect not, if only because it was more concerned with impeding their progress. Whether it had its own agenda or not, it was an obstacle that was overcome only because the Cycle had Dragon rising. If the current reign had been anything other than Phoenix, I believe that meeting would have had a significantly different outcome. No way to tell, though. >Third: Do not miss understand I love Brust and the writings of Paarfi >but to one such as my self they are too ambugious, and sometimes >cliff-hangers. Steve likes to leave hooks to build other stories onto. That and to make people like us speculate about things like this. *heh* >Such as the window(s) in Dark Star's tower, how did Verra >get it there was it already a Logical answers go out the window when you're talking about a gift from the Gods. It just "is". The how's and why's are pretty much irrelevant. >um what did the Demon and so-and-so ( >sorry I forgot) a place where gods meterializes and the special portals >( the cave where Zekia/ Ziva inmuge from the "Halls of Judgement" I think you left out part of this sentence. Care to re-phrase? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 11:00:54 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:00:54 -0700 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <351601c69ad9$81fb0410$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 10:37 AM To cc Subject RE: How? >On the one hand, keep in mind that officially we don't know anything about >Mario. He may well be dead and reincarnated. Mario's reputation was based on >his success at murdering the Emperor. His name is invoked in the name of >lost causes. "Might as well hire Mario to do it." Nobody seems to actually >know how to get hold of him. If he's "worked" since the Interregnum, it >hasn't been reported to us except as rumor and speculation. He may not exist >at all except as a legendary boogey man. Well, there are at least some indirect references to Mario's continued activities (The Demon mentioning to Vlad that they would hired Mario but for the time limitations, etc etc) But at the most basic level, yes. We have not actually seen Mario do anything, except in /FHYA/. (And while Paarfi is sometimes questionable as a source, the murder of Tortaalik is an important enough event that it's unlikely that there is too much liberty taken with the bare facts of the assassination itself...) >Presuming that Paarfi is dependable on this point, we also know that Sethra >was attempting to save him at the same time as she attempted to save Aliera >and the Orb. The Orb arrived in The Halls of Judgement. Aliera's soul did >not. Mario is a question mark. Assuming that he's really out and about >(Steve apparently once suggested that Mario had shown up to visit Aliera >"off-stage" just before a scene in, I think, Yendi), then he didn't escape >the Halls - He never arrived there at all. Indeed, the strain of trying to >put the Orb into the Halls while putting Mario and Aliera someplace outside >of the Halls at the same time is likely what resulted in the loss of >Aliera's soul. Aliera's body ended up in the Halls while her >soul got trapped in a field, probably on the same spot that Mario >landed. If true, it would also answer the question from a >while back as to where Verra got a body to put Aliera's soul into later on. Paarfi is of the opinion that Aliera's body is sent to the Paths while her soul was wrenched from her body. He says so in /FHYA/. For whatever that's worth. What exactly happens to Mario (aside from being teleported away from the Palace during the disaster) is not mentioned. I think it's safe to assume he, at least, did not have his soul and body separated--but who knows? Maybe he *did* end up in the paths, and had to convince Verra to let him out as an undead or something. (Which might explain why he's been so hard to find lately--he secretly stalks Adrilankha by night, feasting on the blood of Teckla, terrorizing the citizenry and... well, maybe not.) I've always thought it would be interesting to have a Vlad book narrated by Mario. Maybe that would clue us in? >Steve likes to leave hooks to build other stories onto. That and to make >people like us speculate about things like this. *heh* I think I read in an interview someplace that he likes to read the speculation. If that is the case, then I'll be happy to attempt to provide him some entertainment by speculating--as renumeration for all the entertainment he's given me. ;-) >Logical answers go out the window when you're talking about a gift from the >Gods. It just "is". The how's and why's are pretty much irrelevant. This is not Science Fiction. It's not *exactly* fantasy, either, but either way, there is no need for our author to explain the hows and whys of every little thing. A little mystery adds to the charm. (And provides speculation fodder. Mmmm tasty.) Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 11:11:09 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:11:09 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 10:37 AM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Lyorn Records needs help! >If few people are modifying the wiki version, there may be little >justification for it to remain a wiki, but that doesn't mean it can't >be a static web page, does it? Cannot the Lyorn Records be exported? I Sure, if you've got someone to host it. I, however, do not have the space (nor the time) to accomplish this for the entire Wiki. (Over 800 articles, currently.) If things get too grim, I'd certainly try to salvage the best bits (The Dramatis Personae, the Plot Summaries, and some of the general information articles are quite detailed) but the real benefit of most of this stuff is the linkability between articles, and this would be lost unless the whole thing is maintained as a wiki. Certainly, there are wiki-engines out there that a fan could set up to maintain the site as a wiki on a different server, but this is getting into areas where I have no personal expertise, and the idea of migrating this much information to a new server gives me separate migranes behind each eyeball. >admit, I've enjoyed perusing the page once or twice in the past, but >I've never had a reason to edit anything. (In point of fact, I've >never learned how to edit wikis, either, though I presume it's fairly >simple.) Editing a wiki article is very simple, and pretty inuitive. You click the edit tab, and your browser opens to a form-based entry system, with a button at the bottom to submit the update when finished. Learning the proper formatting to make links and apply categories and such is somewhat harder (not much, really), but the vast majority of articles can be edited as plain text, anyway. Someone like me can always come along later and linkify things where appropriate, anyway. >However, if frequent edits are the only way to save the page, period, >of course we'll edit it. Well, it's certainly the simplest of the alternatives, and the most likely to succeed. In any case, I suspect that there are a lot more folks out there that *read* the wiki than edit it, so it's probably just a matter of getting these folks to let their voice be heard. Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 28 11:19:51 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:19:51 -0600 Subject: How? Message-ID: <44A2C847.9080005@brazee.net> On 12:00 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Well, there are at least some indirect references to Mario's continued > activities (The Demon mentioning to Vlad that they would hired Mario > but for the time limitations, etc etc) I'm not at all sure that the Demon saying that means anything except that's what the Demon wanted Vlad to hear. >I've always thought it would be interesting to have a Vlad book narrated >by Mario. Maybe that would clue us in? > I suspect Steve has left us clues about his plans for Mario that we have missed. But even if not, I suspect that he has known where he's going with Mario for a long time. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 11:33:32 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:33:32 -0700 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <44A2C847.9080005@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 11:19 AM To cc dragaera at dragaera.info Subject Re: How? >On 12:00 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Well, there are at least some indirect references to Mario's continued >> activities (The Demon mentioning to Vlad that they would hired Mario >> but for the time limitations, etc etc) > >I'm not at all sure that the Demon saying that means anything except >that's what the Demon wanted Vlad to hear. True enough. Still, it implies that the Demon would expect Vlad to have the idea that Mario is still active... Which could, of course, just be unfounded rumors, but it's certainly not the case that Mario is known for sure to be dead. >>I've always thought it would be interesting to have a Vlad book narrated >>by Mario. Maybe that would clue us in? > >I suspect Steve has left us clues about his plans for Mario that we have >missed. But even if not, I suspect that he has known where he's going >with Mario for a long time. Picking out the clues that are important from the ones that are red herrings is one of my favorite types of speculation. For example, re-reading /Teckla/, I noticed Vlad flippantly commenting about joining the Phoenix Guard. (He also asked Morrolan and Aliera about it in /Yendi/.) Is this just Vlad being Vlad? Or is this foreshadowing? Will /Tiassa/ see Vlad serving under Khaavren as the first Easterner member of the Phoenix Guard? (Narrated by Mario, who's been hired to kill Vlad for the Organization, perhaps...) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 28 11:42:15 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:42:15 -0600 Subject: How? Message-ID: <44A2CD87.3010902@brazee.net> On 12:33 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Will /Tiassa/ see Vlad serving under Khaavren as the first Easterner > member of the Phoenix Guard? (Narrated by Mario, who's been hired to > kill Vlad for the Organization, perhaps...) If Vlad and Mario meet up that way soon, then my guess is that they will both survive the meeting - possibly as allies. Of course, if we have already met Mario in the present era, then Mario probably already has plans for Vlad. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 12:15:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:15:08 -0700 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <44A2CD87.3010902@brazee.net> Message-ID: Howard Brazee Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 11:42 AM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject Re: How? >On 12:33 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Will /Tiassa/ see Vlad serving under Khaavren as the first Easterner >> member of the Phoenix Guard? (Narrated by Mario, who's been hired to >> kill Vlad for the Organization, perhaps...) > >If Vlad and Mario meet up that way soon, then my guess is that they will >both survive the meeting - possibly as allies. With the implication here being that if they don't meet up until /The Final Contract/ that one (or both?) will *not* survive? Personally, I like the idea of Mario and Vlad as a partnership. Given that Aliera is apparently friendly with Mario (and also, obviously, with Vlad, as well), I find this not entirely out of the question--even given Vlad's current status with the Jhereg. >Of course, if we have already met Mario in the present era, then Mario >probably already has plans for Vlad. My belief, based on SKZB's comments, is that Mario has not yet actually appeared. I'll admit that this could easily be a smokescreen, of course, but for now I'm going to suspend my paranoia on this point. Majikjon From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jun 28 12:17:58 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Jun 2006 14:17:58 -0500 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060628102507.0262fec0@cox.net> References: <44A22947.5030102@netscape.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20060628102507.0262fec0@cox.net> Message-ID: <87odwdytqx.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > Paarfi is writing romance novels, not a history, just as Alexandre > Dumas pere wrote _Les Trois Mousquetaires_ based on historical fact, > with a lot of stuff added. Many of the characters really existed > (D'Artagnan, Richelieu, Anne of Austria, Buckingham, etc.), but much > of the story was invented. We can't really tell how much of the > Paarfi romances is true and how much was invented, although there is > this difference: Most of the people in the Paarfi romances are still > alive at the time of Paarfi's writing, and all of Dumas's characters > had been dead and gone for at least a century and a half. Furthermore, several of them have Great Weapons, or are gods, or such :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From howard at brazee.net Wed Jun 28 12:28:06 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:28:06 -0600 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44A2D846.2010507@brazee.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >>If Vlad and Mario meet up that way soon, then my guess is that they will >>both survive the meeting - possibly as allies. > >With the implication here being that if they don't meet up until /The >Final Contract/ that one (or both?) will *not* survive? > > I don't know enough about the ending to speculate on this matter. >Personally, I like the idea of Mario and Vlad as a partnership. Given that >Aliera is apparently friendly with Mario (and also, obviously, with Vlad, >as well), I find this not entirely out of the question--even given Vlad's >current status with the Jhereg. > > > We will see a need for Vlad's skills, and we will see times when the tasks that he needs to accomplish are daunting. This could be a time of growth for him. >>Of course, if we have already met Mario in the present era, then Mario >>probably already has plans for Vlad. > >My belief, based on SKZB's comments, is that Mario has not yet actually >appeared. I'll admit that this could easily be a smokescreen, of course, >but for now I'm going to suspend my paranoia on this point. > >Majikjon > > > > Me too, but such speculations should be more inclusive than my beliefs. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jun 28 12:35:07 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Jun 2006 14:35:07 -0500 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87k671ysyc.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > If things get too grim, I'd certainly try to salvage the best bits (The > Dramatis Personae, the Plot Summaries, and some of the general information > articles are quite detailed) but the real benefit of most of this stuff is > the linkability between articles, and this would be lost unless the whole > thing is maintained as a wiki. I'm running a mirror now, to at least capture the data. I'll try to remember to update it now and then -- but you'd be best advised to poke me again if things look especially grim. In some hypothetical future running it as a wiki under Dragaera.info is conceivable. My actually getting around to doing anything about it would be the big issue; that and server horsepower, but given why it might need a new home I'm not *too* worried about that. The other thing is that a wiki needs an active community to keep it clean; otherwise stupid little and big damage accumulates. Still, having the articles mirrored gives us options. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 28 12:34:45 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:34:45 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <44A2CD87.3010902@brazee.net> Message-ID: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> What are the currently dangling story hooks? These come to mind off the top of my head: * Vlad's lost thumb * Jumping chasms while underestimating the jumping ability of the pursuit * Savn's homecoming * A trip to Fenario * Hiding in a pile of garbage for an entire day * Far too much potato soup * Noish-Pa and his current condition * Cawti's current condition (see _Dzur_) * The Lavode in training (see _Dzur_) * Bargaining for the soul of the Necromancer * Fighting a demon that had taken Blackwand away from Morollan * The Diaspora - That is, the establishment of the Taltos family in Adrilankha. Not really a hanging plot hook, but possibly an interesting way to bridge _Brokedown Palace_ and the Paarfiad into the Vladiad. Something (vague references to plagues) drove the exodus of people to leave the East as refugees rather than invaders that, in turn, brought about the establishment of the slums of South Adrilankha. Blackchapel and its environs as described by Paarfi don't seem to be subject to any particular miseries that might account for it, nor do Morollan and his followers appear to be encounter any such troubles during their own wanderings from East to West. Maybe an opportunity to tell yet another version of the story of Fenarr and his horse. *heh* Actually, would you as a reader want to read a story that featured a youngish "Noish-pa" and his struggle to build a home in a strange land? Would it spoil your image of Vlad's grandfather as we currently know him? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 13:12:50 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:12:50 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: <87k671ysyc.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 12:35 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Lyorn Records needs help! >I'm running a mirror now, to at least capture the data. I'll try to >remember to update it now and then -- but you'd be best advised to >poke me again if things look especially grim. Will do. There have been a few more folks updating it today (thanks, guys!) so we may be okay for the time being. >The other thing is that a wiki needs an active community to keep it >clean; otherwise stupid little and big damage accumulates. Still, >having the articles mirrored gives us options. I've been able to keep a pretty good handle on this part by myself for the last few months, so it wouldn't be that difficult. In addition, if it were to move to the dragaera.info server at some point, it should be possible to limit modification abilities to those with list memberships or something, which would help to limit spam and vandalism. For the time being, the mirror will help preserve what is there right now. Thanks for setting this up. It is unlikely that there will be a huge amount of further additions until /Dzur/ comes out, anyway. Majikjon From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jun 28 13:24:00 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Jun 2006 15:24:00 -0500 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <871wt9yqov.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "Scott Schultz" writes: > * The Diaspora - That is, the establishment of the Taltos family in > Adrilankha. Not really a hanging plot hook, but possibly an interesting way > to bridge _Brokedown Palace_ and the Paarfiad into the Vladiad. Something > (vague references to plagues) drove the exodus of people to leave the East > as refugees rather than invaders that, in turn, brought about the > establishment of the slums of South Adrilankha. Blackchapel and its environs > as described by Paarfi don't seem to be subject to any particular miseries > that might account for it, nor do Morollan and his followers appear to be > encounter any such troubles during their own wanderings from East to West. > Maybe an opportunity to tell yet another version of the story of Fenarr and > his horse. *heh* Hmmm; plagues of locusts and such? Maybe they were kinda localized. > Actually, would you as a reader want to read a story that featured a > youngish "Noish-pa" and his struggle to build a home in a strange land? > Would it spoil your image of Vlad's grandfather as we currently know him? It could be interesting; depends on what the story actually and what the young character is like. If done badly, could make me annoyed, certainly. There's always that risk in a series when you reach back. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From kate.nepveu at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 13:30:19 2006 From: kate.nepveu at gmail.com (Kate Nepveu) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:30:19 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <44A2CD87.3010902@brazee.net> <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <360751e50606281330n5d700b0dif23f5e137a7b5712@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > What are the currently dangling story hooks? > These come to mind off the top of my head: > * Vlad's lost thumb Pinky. Vlad would be in much worse shape if he'd lost a thumb. -- Kate Nepveu kate.nepveu at gmail.com From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Jun 28 14:02:17 2006 From: bonham15 at cox.net (andy) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:02:17 -0500 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: <44A22947.5030102@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20060628210212.LJAA16541.centrmmtao06.cox.net@Asminath> How do we decode it? Brains the size of planets...... andy -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of tom sausman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:01 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: How? First let me state that the following statements will contain misspelled words, poor grammar, and vague sources, mostly due to the fact that I am dislactate and too lazy too go through all the books I have of "Brust" (I have does big three-in-one books). Thank you and apologizes in advance. Second: How are you gentlemen and I hope women able to "decode" the works of "Brust"/ "Paarfi", mainly the Vlad Taltos seris? For one instance the Seorli( I believe ) in "Dragon" which Morralon took after about Spellbreaker/Godslayer/Lady Tledra. Another how did Mario get out of "the paths of the dead" b/c Aleria was trap there as was the "orb" and Sethra became a vapmire. Also while Dereva was (presumely) that dragon during the fight with Jenione, was she the same one who was (I blieve) either upset or "it" reconzie Vlad when him and Dark Star went to reunited Aleria to the land of the living. Third: Do not miss understand I love Brust and the writings of Paarfi but to one such as my self they are too ambugious, and sometimes cliff-hangers. Such as the window(s) in Dark Star's tower, how did Verra get it there was it already a um what did the Demon and so-and-so ( sorry I forgot) a place where gods meterializes and the special portals ( the cave where Zekia/ Ziva inmuge from the "Halls of Judgement" -Sorry longer than should, but coursity killed the cat- -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Wed Jun 28 14:07:27 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:07:27 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 12:34 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? >What are the currently dangling story hooks? > >These come to mind off the top of my head: > >* Vlad's lost (pinky) > >* Jumping chasms while underestimating the jumping ability of the pursuit > >* Savn's homecoming > >* A trip to Fenario > >* Hiding in a pile of garbage for an entire day > >* Far too much potato soup > >* Noish-Pa and his current condition > >* Cawti's current condition (see _Dzur_) > >* The Lavode in training (see _Dzur_) > >* Bargaining for the soul of the Necromancer > >* Fighting a demon that had taken Blackwand away from Morollan Minor quibble: Text says Morrolan was fighting a Demon who took his "own sword" from him. Blackwand is not named here, and Morrolan may have been using a different sword at the time. Other points it'd be fun to see addressed are: * The state of Kragar (see _Dzur_?) * Vlad's first death, where Kiera picked him up out of a gutter, and Sethra revivified him * Vlad's trip to Fenario. * Being imprisoned outside of the Empire (*before* /Phoenix/, apparently) * Vlad's inquisition and trial over Tagish... Tadish... Takish... Tagichatn, er whatever. * Impersonating a member of the Imperial Guard * Finding out about (minor Orca Spolier) * Setting up Morrolan's security system at Castle Black (He said there was a story there, at one point). Note; I'm not terribly hopeful about any of these that predate the time of /Phoenix/, as I'm not sure there's enough space left to tell a compelling story within this timeframe. Vlad's years wandering in the woods are certainly still in play, however. >* The Diaspora - That is, the establishment of the Taltos family in >Adrilankha. Not really a hanging plot hook, but possibly an interesting way >to bridge _Brokedown Palace_ and the Paarfiad into the Vladiad. Something >(vague references to plagues) drove the exodus of people to leave the East >as refugees rather than invaders that, in turn, brought about the >establishment of the slums of South Adrilankha. Blackchapel and its environs >as described by Paarfi don't seem to be subject to any particular miseries >that might account for it, nor do Morollan and his followers appear to be >encounter any such troubles during their own wanderings from East to West. >Maybe an opportunity to tell yet another version of the story of Fenarr and >his horse. *heh* > >Actually, would you as a reader want to read a story that featured a >youngish "Noish-pa" and his struggle to build a home in a strange land? >Would it spoil your image of Vlad's grandfather as we currently know him? Noish-Pa was definitely born in Fenario. I have speculated that we may have seen him at some point in /Brokedown Palace/. Here's what we do know about the Taltos family's emmigration to the land of Faerie: Vlad's father, aunt, and uncle were likely also born in Fenario. Noish-Pa's wife Ibronka was killed in Adrilankha after the family moved there. Vlad says at one point that he was born in a small fishing village, implying the family moved to Adrilankha after his birth. This may be somewhat contradicted by Noish-Pa's descriptions of the Revolt of 221 (given that this is about the time Vlad was born, and was in South Adrilankha), but we have no reliable timetable for this, so it's hard to be certain. We also don't know if Vlad was telling the truth about his birthplace. There appears to be room enough for a story here, but I wouldn't want to read it unless Steve finds an idea that really tickles his fancy. Majikjon From dovekie at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 14:31:12 2006 From: dovekie at gmail.com (dovekie) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:31:12 -0500 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <284f31be0606281431v566655c7jcf09c1ce5b6d7119@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > Vlad says at one point that he was born in a small fishing village, I'm pretty sure this was supposed to be a joke. -- "I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." From lincicum at comcast.net Wed Jun 28 15:28:26 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:28:26 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <284f31be0606281431v566655c7jcf09c1ce5b6d7119@mail.gmail.com> References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <284f31be0606281431v566655c7jcf09c1ce5b6d7119@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44A3028A.30305@comcast.net> dovekie wrote: >> Vlad says at one point that he was born in a small fishing village, > > I'm pretty sure this was supposed to be a joke. Almost certainly. Doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, though. Really, we don't know what Vlad's circumstances were right at the time he was born. Majikjon From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 28 15:28:50 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:28:50 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <360751e50606281330n5d700b0dif23f5e137a7b5712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3c4901c69b02$3aa59d90$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Pinky. Vlad would be in much worse shape if he'd lost a thumb. Doh! Hazards of posting at work. They keep distracting me with their silly little problems instead of acknowledging the greater issues at hand. *heh* From scott at cjhunter.com Wed Jun 28 15:58:48 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:48 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3c4a01c69b06$6a6e7250$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >Minor quibble: Text says Morrolan was fighting a Demon who took his "own >sword" from him. Blackwand is not named here, and Morrolan may have been >using a different sword at the time. True, true. I assumed Blackwand, primarily because Morollan doesn't seem to have touched any other sword during Vlad's acquaintance with him. Morolan's acquisition of Blackwand predates Vlad's birth, let alone his introduction to Morollan. If Morollan WAS wielding some sword other than Blackwand at the time (Isn't Vlad's phrasing something like "...watching helplessly as Morollan fought a demon that had taken his own sword away from him..."?) then there's bound to be a story in that. >There appears to be room enough for a [Noish-pa] story here, but I wouldn't want to >read it unless Steve finds an idea that really tickles his fancy. It would certainly be something different than any other Dragaeran story, much as _Brokedown Palace_ or _The Phoenix Guards_ were completely unlike any other Dragaeran stories that went before them. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 16:09:05 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:09:05 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <3c4a01c69b06$6a6e7250$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <3c4a01c69b06$6a6e7250$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606281609h514a4b4foa17d6f8fe747697d@mail.gmail.com> > >Minor quibble: Text says Morrolan was fighting a Demon who took his "own > >sword" from him. Blackwand is not named here, and Morrolan may have been > >using a different sword at the time. > > True, true. I assumed Blackwand, primarily because Morollan doesn't seem to > have touched any other sword during Vlad's acquaintance with him. Morolan's > acquisition of Blackwand predates Vlad's birth, let alone his introduction > to Morollan. > > If Morollan WAS wielding some sword other than Blackwand at the time (Isn't > Vlad's phrasing something like "...watching helplessly as Morollan fought a > demon that had taken his own sword away from him..."?) then there's bound to > be a story in that. Two remarks: 1.) Vlad remarks at one point how unusual it is for Morrolan to be wearing Blackwand within the walls of Castle Black. This doesn't necessarily mean he wears some other sword, but Blackwand is not always ready to hand. 2.) When Morrolan duels Adron-detractors, is he fighting with Blackwand? I'm kind of surprised that anyone is willing to go up against a Morganti weapon that way, even if it's widely-known that GWs are sentient and capable of eating or not eating souls, as they choose. Mellar did, of course. ~Maximilian -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 16:13:35 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:13:35 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/06, Maximilian Wilson wrote: > (In point of fact, I've never learned how to edit wikis, either, > though I presume it's fairly simple.) > I believe this should help: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Tutorial_1 From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 16:29:47 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:29:47 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > Certainly, there are wiki-engines out there that a fan could set up to > maintain the site as a wiki on a different server, but this is getting > into areas where I have no personal expertise, and the idea of migrating > this much information to a new server gives me separate migranes behind > each eyeball. Looking at these pages, http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Database_download http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Database_download The migration itself doesn't look too painful. I just grabbed the most recent XML files, and they're 1.9MB & 28MB (current page revisions and full page history, respectively, as of last night). Of course, setting up a MySQL DB & configuring Wikimedia, well, that could get hairy. From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 16:49:37 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:49:37 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/28/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > Vlad's years wandering in the woods are > certainly still in play, however. Including the philosopher he met. And later killed. And earlier than that, there's a described tense point of conflict between Vlad and Morrolan involving Blackwand against Vlad's throat. > > Vlad says at one point that he was born in a small fishing village, > Snort. "I don't suppose you have any experience in military reconnaissance?" "I assure you, in the small fishing village I come from it forms the sole topic of conversation." (Added to /Dragon/ quote section, since you want edits anyway, and I was amused) From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com Wed Jun 28 18:23:13 2006 From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:23:13 +0200 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606281609h514a4b4foa17d6f8fe747697d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" wrote: > >1.) Vlad remarks at one point how unusual it is for Morrolan to be >wearing Blackwand within the walls of Castle Black. This doesn't >necessarily mean he wears some other sword, but Blackwand is not >always ready to hand. I've a memory that he turns Blackwant into a ring or something like that. Or maybe I'm just confusing it with Sethra, who does something similar with Iceflame. From wilson.max at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 18:26:52 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:26:52 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606281609h514a4b4foa17d6f8fe747697d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606281826le453212xa737296bcc6b76ae@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/06, Martin Wohlert wrote: > "Maximilian Wilson" wrote: > > > >1.) Vlad remarks at one point how unusual it is for Morrolan to be > >wearing Blackwand within the walls of Castle Black. This doesn't > >necessarily mean he wears some other sword, but Blackwand is not > >always ready to hand. > > I've a memory that he turns Blackwant into a ring or something like that. Or > maybe I'm just confusing it with Sethra, who does something similar with > Iceflame. In /Issola/, Vlad notices that whenever Morrolan's wizard's staff appears out of nowhere, a certain ring that he always wears simultaneously disappears. Flashy trick. You may have confused this with Blackwand because Morrolan also says that, at home, Blackwand has largely replaced his staff for wizardly purposes. -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From books at bofh.com Wed Jun 28 18:56:45 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:56:45 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060629015645.GA28017@bofh.com> On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 04:29:47PM -0700, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/28/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > Of course, setting up a MySQL DB & configuring Wikimedia, well, that > could get hairy. It's reasonably straight forward. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Curch, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. -- Thomas Paine From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jun 28 19:04:24 2006 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:04:24 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? Message-ID: <5BED7A72.2AFEF874.00048EA6@aol.com> Jon Lincicum writes: > Really, we don't know what Vlad's circumstances were right at the > time he was born. Free association: "Sunny, of course, had not been born four years ago, and she sat and tried to remember what that was like. Very dark, she thought, with nothing to bite." (Lemony Snicket, _The Reptile Room_) -- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gaertk at aol.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll From inuyashadontask at netscape.net Wed Jun 28 20:00:54 2006 From: inuyashadontask at netscape.net (tom sausman) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:00:54 -0400 Subject: speculation Message-ID: <44A34266.4020600@netscape.net> In my "how?" e-mail the third part which mentions cliff-hangers, everyone's answers' seem to be " It leaves room for speculation. Speculation, in my eyes, is wrong it leads too false hope, lies, and heated debates.... BUT it is fun or rather awe-inspirsing connecnting the dots when you have read previous works. I just found fusrtaing how out of "19" nine or ten inculding _Dzur_ in Augast (for me) are out and we have to wait for the "penical to be sharpen" to connect these dots. Curousity killed the Cat -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From inuyashadontask at netscape.net Wed Jun 28 20:23:53 2006 From: inuyashadontask at netscape.net (tom sausman) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:23:53 -0400 Subject: Old Age? Message-ID: <44A347C9.1080804@netscape.net> If Vlad's son (in question) took over the series would it still "The Vlad Series". I say this because Vlad ( eventhough wtih the soul of pactuilar one of the strongest.... isn't his soul the one Sethra couldn't kill with the bow in.... sorry I forgot) is an eastner. With the GW the gods might said hime back like Sethra but how does that work? Your soul goes to the _Halls of Judgement_ not your body? Also is it because Vlad's soul trun traitor and establiah the Jar-head that his in a eastner's body and not in a "human" one. -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From chica at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 28 22:19:07 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:19:07 -0700 Subject: Was Dzur review In-Reply-To: <20060627170008.3F4A2E9547@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060627170008.3F4A2E9547@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <44A362CB.3040307@dreamcafe.com> dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:25:16 -0700 From: "Maximilian Wilson" Subject: Re: Dzur review This is the first I've heard of this. I know of authors who feel understandably uncomfortable with Amazon's policy of advertising cheaper, used copies of a book on the same page as new copies, and I've heard from other authors that books sold through Amazon get marked up substantially; but I've never heard any suggestion that author's royalties get marked down. SF author Jerry Pournelle's booklist links to Amazon (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reviews/books.htm), and one of his major foreign correspondents (Francis Hamit) writes occasionally about his experiences selling Amazon shorts, and neither has ever mentioned that an Amazon sale pays any less than any other chain. If true, it would be a bit alarming to those of us who are interested in making sure the bard gets paid. -Max Wilson ------------------------------ By all means, make sure the bard gets paid, I pray you. It's much appreciated. Ghost-written works are never the same. Unless there's a new rule for ghost-possessed keyboards.... maybe there is. Ahem. In all seriousness, if anyone does find out about royalty markdown, please post it. I never heard of it either - but assuredly, what I have not heard of varies from what others have not heard of. Thanks. *--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jun 28 22:38:41 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Jun 2006 00:38:41 -0500 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87hd24wmfy.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "Davdi Silverrock" writes: > On 6/28/06, Jon_Lincicum wrote: > > > > > Certainly, there are wiki-engines out there that a fan could set up to > > maintain the site as a wiki on a different server, but this is getting > > into areas where I have no personal expertise, and the idea of migrating > > this much information to a new server gives me separate migranes behind > > each eyeball. > > Looking at these pages, > > http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Database_download > > http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Database_download > > The migration itself doesn't look too painful. I just grabbed the > most recent XML files, and they're 1.9MB & 28MB (current page > revisions and full page history, respectively, as of last night). > > Of course, setting up a MySQL DB & configuring Wikimedia, well, that > could get hairy. Does it have to be MySQL? Last time I ran a database it was PostgreSQL here, for various reasons, and there may be even better reasons on the next incarnation of servers. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 23:43:06 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:43:06 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: <87hd24wmfy.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> References: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> <87hd24wmfy.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On 29 Jun 2006 00:38:41 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Davdi Silverrock" writes: > > > > > The migration itself doesn't look too painful. I just grabbed the > > most recent XML files, and they're 1.9MB & 28MB (current page > > revisions and full page history, respectively, as of last night). > > > > Of course, setting up a MySQL DB & configuring Wikimedia, well, that > > could get hairy. > > Does it have to be MySQL? Last time I ran a database it was > PostgreSQL here, for various reasons, and there may be even better > reasons on the next incarnation of servers. The installation instructions do not mention support for alternative databases. But they do give step-by-step instructions for what they do require. I haven't read through them all, but it doesn't look too bad. I think. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Installation From davdisil at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 23:51:15 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:51:15 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: On 6/28/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > "I assure you, in the small fishing village I come from it forms the > sole topic of conversation." > I was sufficiently intrigued by the form of the above quote that I wondered if it was a quote or paraphrase of something else. The web itself yields no meaningful hits, but Google groups has the following two posts. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/msg/9dd2b52aa38c110e?dmode=source http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/msg/e5432d84c812b3e8?dmode=source Given who the writer is, I believe we can conclude that there is a definite connection to the line in /Dragon/, but the dates of posting are after the publication of that book, so we cannot decide which way the influence went. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 29 00:27:58 2006 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (skzb) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:27:58 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> I stole it from Patrick. Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/28/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > >> >> "I assure you, in the small fishing village I come from it forms the >> sole topic of conversation." >> > > I was sufficiently intrigued by the form of the above quote that I > wondered if it was a quote or paraphrase of something else. The web > itself yields no meaningful hits, but Google groups has the following > two posts. > > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/msg/9dd2b52aa38c110e?dmode=source > > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/msg/e5432d84c812b3e8?dmode=source > > > > Given who the writer is, I believe we can conclude that there is a > definite connection to the line in /Dragon/, but the dates of posting > are after the publication of that book, so we cannot decide which way > the influence went. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jun 29 04:29:52 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:29:52 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> References: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <44A3B9B0.7040408@email.ers.usda.gov> skzb wrote: > I stole it from Patrick. > Good writers steal; bad writers borrow ;-) Snarkhunter From Douglas.Lang at ed.gov Thu Jun 29 05:42:27 2006 From: Douglas.Lang at ed.gov (Lang, Douglas (Contractor)) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:42:27 -0400 Subject: Old Age? Message-ID: Would this do? "Chreotha's Bend was a section of rich river-bottom country lying twenty miles southeast of Adrilankha. Hill-cradled and remote, definite yet without boundaries, straddling into two duchies and owning allegiance to neither, it had been the original grant and site of a tremendous pre-Interregnum plantation, the ruins of which - the gutted shell of an enormous house with its fallen stables and servant quarters and overgrown gardens and brick terraces and promenades - were still known as the Old Chreotha's place, although the original boundaries now existed only on old faded records in the Duke's office in the county courthouse in Adrilankha, and even some of the once-fertile fields had long since reverted to the Jhereg-infested cane-and-cypress jungle from which their first master had hewn them. From a little after two oclock until almost sundown of the long still hot weary dead afternoon in the month of the Tsalmoth they sat in which Lady Coldfield still called the office because her father had called it that - a dim hot airless room with the blinds all closed and fastened for six hundred and forty-three summers because when she was a girl someone had believed that light and moving air carried heat and that dark was always cooler, and which (as the furnace shone fuller and fuller on that side of the house) became latticed with yellow slashes full of dust motes which Vlad Norathar thought of as being flecks of the dead old dried paint itself blown inward from the scaling blinds as wind might have blown them." -dpl -----Original Message----- From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info]On Behalf Of tom sausman Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 11:24 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Old Age? If Vlad's son (in question) took over the series would it still "The Vlad Series". I say this because Vlad ( eventhough wtih the soul of pactuilar one of the strongest.... isn't his soul the one Sethra couldn't kill with the bow in.... sorry I forgot) is an eastner. With the GW the gods might said hime back like Sethra but how does that work? Your soul goes to the _Halls of Judgement_ not your body? Also is it because Vlad's soul trun traitor and establiah the Jar-head that his in a eastner's body and not in a "human" one. -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ From eshivak at netzero.net Thu Jun 29 05:58:11 2006 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:58:11 -0400 Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 In-Reply-To: <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> All, Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake (I'm on his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... http://david-drake.com/baen.html Eric Shivak SDD Computer Support Services 631-269-5295 support at sddcomputersupport.com www.sddcomputersupport.com _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 2592 Spam messages and set aside 0 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 06:16:07 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:16:07 -0700 Subject: Was Dzur review In-Reply-To: <44A362CB.3040307@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: "A.S. Zanoni" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 10:19 PM Please respond to fairhair at gmail.com To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Was Dzur review >By all means, make sure the bard gets paid, I pray you. It's much >appreciated. > >Ghost-written works are never the same. Unless there's a new rule for >ghost-possessed keyboards.... maybe there is. Ahem. "The pay's the thing Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King" Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 06:24:04 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:24:04 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <44A3B9B0.7040408@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: Ken Koester Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 04:29 AM To Dragaera List cc Subject Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? skzb wrote: > >> I stole it from Patrick. >> >Good writers steal; bad writers borrow ;-) Surely, writers do not steal or borrow... They simply perform "research". Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 06:30:33 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:30:33 -0700 Subject: Old Age? (Minor Orca Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <44A347C9.1080804@netscape.net> Message-ID: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 tom sausman Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/28/06 08:23 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Old Age? >If Vlad's son (in question) took over the series would it still "The >Vlad Series". I say this because Vlad ( eventhough wtih the soul of >pactuilar one of the strongest.... isn't his soul the one Sethra >couldn't kill with the bow in.... sorry I forgot) is an eastner. With If Vlad's son "took over" the series, it certainly would still be the "Vlad series"... For the very simple and straightforward reason that Vlad's son is also named Vlad. It might be interesting to have a series about Vlad Norathar, though... He could be the Merlin to Vlad Sr.'s Corwin. Majikjon From joyjnicholson at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 06:51:15 2006 From: joyjnicholson at gmail.com (Joy Nicholson) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:51:15 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <44A2CD87.3010902@brazee.net> <385101c69ae9$e91bf9a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <2be528100606290651s1a0bd6e7u42d39dd3ad6c8e97@mail.gmail.com> I remember in Yendi(?), Vlad mentioning that Kragar used some interesting methods to get at some information that Vlad wanted. He said something to the effect of "but that's Kragar's story to tell". On 6/28/06, Scott Schultz wrote: > What are the currently dangling story hooks? > > These come to mind off the top of my head: > > * Vlad's lost thumb > > * Jumping chasms while underestimating the jumping ability of the pursuit > > * Savn's homecoming > > * A trip to Fenario > > * Hiding in a pile of garbage for an entire day > > * Far too much potato soup > > * Noish-Pa and his current condition > > * Cawti's current condition (see _Dzur_) > > * The Lavode in training (see _Dzur_) > > * Bargaining for the soul of the Necromancer > > * Fighting a demon that had taken Blackwand away from Morollan > > * The Diaspora - That is, the establishment of the Taltos family in > Adrilankha. Not really a hanging plot hook, but possibly an interesting way > to bridge _Brokedown Palace_ and the Paarfiad into the Vladiad. Something > (vague references to plagues) drove the exodus of people to leave the East > as refugees rather than invaders that, in turn, brought about the > establishment of the slums of South Adrilankha. Blackchapel and its environs > as described by Paarfi don't seem to be subject to any particular miseries > that might account for it, nor do Morollan and his followers appear to be > encounter any such troubles during their own wanderings from East to West. > Maybe an opportunity to tell yet another version of the story of Fenarr and > his horse. *heh* > > Actually, would you as a reader want to read a story that featured a > youngish "Noish-pa" and his struggle to build a home in a strange land? > Would it spoil your image of Vlad's grandfather as we currently know him? > > > > > > > -- JoyJNicholson at gmail.com mwerble.livejournal.com From books at bofh.com Thu Jun 29 07:00:59 2006 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:00:59 -0700 Subject: Lyorn Records needs help! In-Reply-To: <87hd24wmfy.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> References: <2ddbda5f0606281037s3399641dr9605149434f9a716@mail.gmail.com> <87hd24wmfy.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20060629140059.GA32238@bofh.com> On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 12:38:41AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Does it have to be MySQL? Last time I ran a database it was > PostgreSQL here, for various reasons, and there may be even better > reasons on the next incarnation of servers. Last I recall it had to be either MySQL or Oracle, and Oracle support was beta. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.superpowers.us "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance." -Sam Brown From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Thu Jun 29 07:16:29 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:16:29 -0500 Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 In-Reply-To: <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> References: <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> Message-ID: <44A3E0BD.3080305@comcast.net> May he rest in peace. ...and may David Weber get a new editor who really *edits* him . . . eshivak wrote: >All, > > > >Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake (I'm on >his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. > > > >Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... > > > >http://david-drake.com/baen.html > > > >Eric Shivak > >SDD Computer Support Services > >631-269-5295 > >support at sddcomputersupport.com > >www.sddcomputersupport.com > > > > > _____ > ><< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 2592 Spam messages and set aside 0 >Newsletters for me >You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com > > > > > From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jun 29 08:07:52 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:07:52 -0400 Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 In-Reply-To: <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> References: <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> Message-ID: On Jun 29, 2006, at 8:58 AM, eshivak wrote: > All, > > > > Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake > (I'm on > his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. > > > > Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... > > > > http://david-drake.com/baen.html > Thanks so much for sharing. I have been an avid SF reader since 3rd grade (ca 1959) although I am not a "fan" in the sense of Fandom. I don't know much about the players in the field but I know the authors whom I enjoy. This is the only list I read (and occasionally write). Baen's books were among the ones I looked for, because I enjoyed his writers. The giants of my youth are mostly gone (Heinlein, Asimov, Campbell, etc.) and now it seems those of my middle years are at risk. (As an aside, survivors of thalamic stroke generally are not a happy crew-- Mr. Baen had the better possible outcome). Please pass my thanks to Mr. Drake for his eloquence. Ken From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jun 29 08:08:26 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:08:26 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kenneth J. Gorelick, MD, FCCP President and Chief Operating Officer 1 Maplewood Drive Newtown Square, PA 19073 tel: 610-325-9253 fax: 610-325-9252 mobile: 610-659-8236 On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:24 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Ken Koester > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/29/06 04:29 AM > > To > Dragaera List > cc > > Subject > Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? > > > > > skzb wrote: >> >>> I stole it from Patrick. >>> >> Good writers steal; bad writers borrow ;-) > > Surely, writers do not steal or borrow... They simply perform > "research". > > Majikjon Thank you Lobachevsky! From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jun 29 08:07:51 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 Subject: Was Dzur review In-Reply-To: <44A362CB.3040307@dreamcafe.com> References: <20060627170008.3F4A2E9547@gw.dd-b.net> <44A362CB.3040307@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060629110237.02613d40@cox.net> I would sincerely doubt any reduction in author's royalty at Amazon. The author's royalty is a set percentage of the cover price, by contract with the publisher, is it not? Until a book goes Out of Print and is remaindered, at least. The retailer's markup is a healthy one, and I bet that Amazon purchases directly from the publisher, so there's no middleman (jobber, wholesaler) to pay, either, and I would bet that is what permits Amazon to offer a discount, to start with. At 01:19 AM 6/29/2006, A.S. Zanoni wrote: >This is the first I've heard of this. I know of authors who feel >understandably uncomfortable with Amazon's policy of advertising >cheaper, used copies of a book on the same page as new copies, and >I've heard from other authors that books sold through Amazon get >marked up substantially; but I've never heard any suggestion that >author's royalties get marked down. SF author Jerry Pournelle's >booklist links to Amazon >(http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reviews/books.htm), and one of his >major foreign correspondents (Francis Hamit) writes occasionally about >his experiences selling Amazon shorts, and neither has ever mentioned >that an Amazon sale pays any less than any other chain. If true, it >would be a bit alarming to those of us who are interested in making >sure the bard gets paid. > >-Max Wilson > >------------------------------ > >By all means, make sure the bard gets paid, I pray you. It's much >appreciated. > >Ghost-written works are never the same. Unless there's a new rule >for ghost-possessed keyboards.... maybe there is. Ahem. > >In all seriousness, if anyone does find out about royalty markdown, >please post it. I never heard of it either - but assuredly, what I >have not heard of varies from what others have not heard of. > >Thanks. > >*--- > >--- >A.S. Zanoni >Personal Assistant to Steven Brust > >Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: >http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 08:25:31 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:25:31 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kenneth Gorelick Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 08:08 AM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Dragaera List Subject Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? > Thank you Lobachevsky! And ever since I meet this man My life is not the same And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name, hi! Majikjon From pulmon at mac.com Thu Jun 29 08:29:43 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:29:43 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <368E4F2A-C163-4B3D-B798-CAA545CCD29E@mac.com> On Jun 29, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Kenneth Gorelick > Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info > 06/29/06 08:08 AM > > To > Jon_Lincicum at stream.com > cc > Dragaera List > Subject > Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? > > > > >> Thank you Lobachevsky! > > And ever since I meet this man > My life is not the same > And Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky is his name, hi! > ...index I got from old Vladivostok telephone directory! From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 29 08:44:41 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:44:41 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <44A347C9.1080804@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4dc001c69b92$efcf2b60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >If Vlad's son (in question) took over the series >would it still "The Vlad Series". I say this because Vlad... >...is an eastner. If Vlad Norather became the primary hero/narrator, then I can't see how it could be considered the same series. It'd be something new using the same setting. What difference does it make that Vlad's an Easterner or not? >With >the GW the gods might said hime back like Sethra but how does that work? >Your soul goes to the _Halls of Judgement_ not your body? Taking these questions in reverse order - When a Dragaeran dies, his or her soul (so we have been told by people who should be reliable) hangs around for three days. After the third day, the soul departs and the body can no longer be revivified. If a body is preserved properly, the soul can apparently remain connected to it. I'm inferring this based on the description of what happens when a body is carried to Deathsgate and the fact that the trip in the pre-teleport age was a long one. Khaavren took an entire year off in order to do it the "traditional" way. In any case, whether the soul remains or is somehow summoned back, when the body arrives at the base of Deathsgate Falls and decomposes, the soul is released. The soul of the deceased then takes whatever physical items it requires from its body and faces the challenge of the Paths of the Dead. The original body is left behind, though it seems clear that the souls in the Paths and the Halls have a body of some sort that can be harmed and even "killed". Now, as for the Gods sending Vlad back - It wouldn't happen, or at least not like it would for a Dragaeran. Easterners don't go to the Halls of Judgement when they die. We don't know what happens to them. Vlad was allowed to leave the Halls in _Taltos_ because he didn't belong there. That is, his soul didn't belong there. Morollan, who was also alive, was unable to leave because his soul DID belong there. Aliera could leave because the Halls had no hold over her. Does it matter that Vlad's soul was originally a Dragaeran soul? I'd say "no", based on Morollan's example. If Vlad's soul was still Dragaeran despite being born into an Easterner or if all souls are the same regardless then Vlad could not have left the Halls of Judgement. It's always possible that the Lords of Judgement allowed Vlad to leave on principle and prevented Morollan from leaving on principle. My general impression based on all of the books, though, leads me to conclude that the Lords of Judgement don't actually interfere in individual affairs that much. What I mean is that Vlad or Zerika or Aliera were all innately able to leave the Halls. It wasn't a case of the Gods granting them some sort of protection from the "soul-stealing" magic of the Halls. When they talked about preventing someone from leaving, they meant literally binding someone physically to the place until such time as they fell asleep and died there. Note, that this is my personal view of matters; there's scant text evidence to directly support it. If Vlad's soul is innately "immune" to the Halls because he's an Easterner then it seems reasonable to presume that his soul will go to wherever Eastern souls go, not to the Halls of Judgement. >Also is it >because Vlad's soul trun traitor and establiah the Jar-head that his in >a eastner's body and not in a "human" one. Aliera suggests as much and sort of treats it as a matter of Karma and genetics doing weird things together. The truth may be more complicated. On a seperate note, I'd recommend sticking to the published names of the stories. Steve's pet-names for the books are his personal thing. You won't normally find anyone else referring to them that way, which can lead to some confusion if you DO start referring to them that way. From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jun 29 11:52:28 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:52:28 -0400 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44A4216C.7000305@email.ers.usda.gov> Lang, Douglas (Contractor) wrote: >Would this do? > >"Chreotha's Bend was a section of rich river-bottom country lying twenty miles southeast of Adrilankha. Hill-cradled and remote, definite yet without boundaries, straddling into two duchies and owning allegiance to neither, it had been the original grant and site of a tremendous pre-Interregnum plantation, the ruins of which - the gutted shell of an enormous house with its fallen stables and servant quarters and overgrown gardens and brick terraces and promenades - were still known as the Old Chreotha's place, although the original boundaries now existed only on old faded records in the Duke's office in the county courthouse in Adrilankha, and even some of the once-fertile fields had long since reverted to the Jhereg-infested cane-and-cypress jungle from which their first master had hewn them. From a little after two oclock until almost sundown of the long still hot weary dead afternoon in the month of the Tsalmoth they sat in which Lady Coldfield still called the office because her father had called it that - a dim hot airless room with the blinds all closed and fastened for six hundred and forty-three summers because when she was a girl someone had believed that light and moving air carried heat and that dark was always cooler, and which (as the furnace shone fuller and fuller on that side of the house) became latticed with yellow slashes full of dust motes which Vlad Norathar thought of as being flecks of the dead old dried paint itself blown inward from the scaling blinds as wind might have blown them." > > > That's borrowing ;-) Snarkhunter From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Thu Jun 29 11:59:41 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:59:41 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44A4231D.5020802@email.ers.usda.gov> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >Ken Koester >Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info >06/29/06 04:29 AM > >To >Dragaera List >cc > >Subject >Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? > > > > >skzb wrote: > > >>>I stole it from Patrick. >>> >>> >>> >>Good writers steal; bad writers borrow ;-) >> >> > >Surely, writers do not steal or borrow... They simply perform "research". > >Majikjon > > > Nope. The good ones grab the diamond rings, yank the stones out of their settings, recut those suckers 6 ways to Sunday, polish them up, reset them into necklaces, brooches, chokers, pendants & whisk them in front of you for inspection with the aplomb of a stage magician. You'll never know the provenance unless you're a crackajack detective. The bad ones--it's obvious at a glance they've taken what don't belong to them & need to put it back ;-) Snarkhunter From steve at romlin.com Thu Jun 29 12:30:04 2006 From: steve at romlin.com (Steve Rapaport) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:30:04 +0200 Subject: Dragaera Wiki needs help Message-ID: I must have missed the beginning of this discussion, -- is Wikia threatening to boot the Lyorn Records due to lack of updates? Can't they be put off for another 60 days? It seems to me that the release of "Dzur" should spur a pretty good round of updates to the wiki. And if it moves things forward as much as I'm hoping, it could nearly double that wiki's size. From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Jun 29 13:00:38 2006 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:38 -0400 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <4dc001c69b92$efcf2b60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> References: <44A347C9.1080804@netscape.net> <4dc001c69b92$efcf2b60$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20060629155613.02625940@cox.net> At 11:44 AM 6/29/2006, Scott Schultz wrote: > >With > >the GW the gods might said hime back like Sethra but how does that work? > >Your soul goes to the _Halls of Judgement_ not your body? > >Taking these questions in reverse order - When a Dragaeran dies, his or her >soul (so we have been told by people who should be reliable) hangs around >for three days. After the third day, the soul departs and the body can no >longer be revivified. > >If a body is preserved properly, the soul can apparently remain connected to >it. I'm inferring this based on the description of what happens when a body >is carried to Deathsgate and the fact that the trip in the pre-teleport age >was a long one. Khaavren took an entire year off in order to do it the >"traditional" way. > >In any case, whether the soul remains or is somehow summoned back, when the >body arrives at the base of Deathsgate Falls and decomposes, the soul is >released. The soul of the deceased then takes whatever physical items it >requires from its body and faces the challenge of the Paths of the Dead. The >original body is left behind, though it seems clear that the souls in the >Paths and the Halls have a body of some sort that can be harmed and even >"killed". > >Now, as for the Gods sending Vlad back - It wouldn't happen, or at least not >like it would for a Dragaeran. Easterners don't go to the Halls of Judgement >when they die. We don't know what happens to them. Vlad was allowed to leave >the Halls in _Taltos_ because he didn't belong there. That is, his soul >didn't belong there. Morollan, who was also alive, was unable to leave >because his soul DID belong there. Aliera could leave because the Halls had >no hold over her. > >Does it matter that Vlad's soul was originally a Dragaeran soul? I'd say >"no", based on Morollan's example. If Vlad's soul was still Dragaeran >despite being born into an Easterner or if all souls are the same regardless >then Vlad could not have left the Halls of Judgement. It's always possible >that the Lords of Judgement allowed Vlad to leave on principle and prevented >Morollan from leaving on principle. My general impression based on all of >the books, though, leads me to conclude that the Lords of Judgement don't >actually interfere in individual affairs that much. What I mean is that Vlad >or Zerika or Aliera were all innately able to leave the Halls. It wasn't a >case of the Gods granting them some sort of protection from the >"soul-stealing" magic of the Halls. When they talked about preventing >someone from leaving, they meant literally binding someone physically to the >place until such time as they fell asleep and died there. Note, that this is >my personal view of matters; there's scant text evidence to directly support >it. > >If Vlad's soul is innately "immune" to the Halls because he's an Easterner >then it seems reasonable to presume that his soul will go to wherever >Eastern souls go, not to the Halls of Judgement. > > >Also is it > >because Vlad's soul trun traitor and establiah the Jar-head that his in > >a eastner's body and not in a "human" one. > >Aliera suggests as much and sort of treats it as a matter of Karma and >genetics doing weird things together. The truth may be more complicated. > >On a seperate note, I'd recommend sticking to the published names of the >stories. Steve's pet-names for the books are his personal thing. You won't >normally find anyone else referring to them that way, which can lead to some >confusion if you DO start referring to them that way. I am a bit confused. Wasn't there a point made (in _Jhereg_)that Vlad's soul is actually a brother to Keiron the Conqueror, the founder of the Jhereg? Maybe souls are sent back, but the individual who receives the recycled sould evidently doesn't have a memory. And I have no idea why Vlad received the soul of a Dragaeran--maybe the gods wanted a "quick fix" for something, and to beings that live 2 or 3 millenia, a human lifetime is almost like nothing at all? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 13:15:52 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:15:52 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060629155613.02625940@cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 01:00 PM To Brust list cc Subject RE: Old Age? >I am a bit confused. > >Wasn't there a point made (in _Jhereg_)that Vlad's soul is actually a >brother to Keiron the Conqueror, the founder of the Jhereg? > >Maybe souls are sent back, but the individual who receives the >recycled sould evidently doesn't have a memory. And I have no idea >why Vlad received the soul of a Dragaeran--maybe the gods wanted a >"quick fix" for something, and to beings that live 2 or 3 millenia, a >human lifetime is almost like nothing at all? Perhaps Dolivar died, went to the Halls of Judgment, spent 240,000 years as a purple robe, then as "punishment" for betraying Kieron, was allowed only to reincarnate as an Easterner? Majikjon From chica at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 29 14:20:25 2006 From: chica at dreamcafe.com (A.S. Zanoni) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:20:25 -0700 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:07:52 -0400 From: Kenneth Gorelick Subject: Re: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 On Jun 29, 2006, at 8:58 AM, eshivak wrote: > > All, > > > > Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake > > (I'm on his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. > > > > Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... > > > > http://david-drake.com/baen.html > > Thanks so much for sharing. I have been an avid SF reader since 3rd grade (ca 1959) although I am not a "fan" in the sense of Fandom. I don't know much about the players in the field but I know the authors whom I enjoy. This is the only list I read (and occasionally write). Baen's books were among the ones I looked for, because I enjoyed his writers. The giants of my youth are mostly gone (Heinlein, Asimov, Campbell, etc.) and now it seems those of my middle years are at risk. (As an aside, survivors of thalamic stroke generally are not a happy crew-- Mr. Baen had the better possible outcome). Please pass my thanks to Mr. Drake for his eloquence. Ken ------------------------------ Fandom. I don't know why many sf/f readers feel they are not "part of fandom". There isn't a rule that says a Real Fan has to attend conventions... or run a fanzine/ezine... or wear costumes that match a particular motif... or write fanfic... or be on sf/f newsgroups... or participate in running conventions... or write letters to F&SF or Asimov's [or even read either of 'em]... or be part of a local sf/f group that may or may not do any number of those things. I could go on and on. I'll spare you. You don't even have to *just* be a reader. Yes, that happens to be the core of my being a fan, but surely I am no guide to anyone else. It still freaks me out that people in NASA follow Star Trek avidly. [No, I don't know why, it just does.] Nothing wrong with that either. I like Babylon 5 and Firefly, but you certainly don't have to, or even think that they're of any value. =shrug= I'd say all that matters is that you enjoy what YOU call science fiction, or spec fiction, or whatever you call it. Or fantasy. Or horror. Including any flavor combination of those lovely marketing categories. Nothing wrong with the lines being blurred as to what you're reading either. These are all my opinions. Can't blame them on the parrot. :> Aside: Am sorry for the loss of Jim Baen. I am most sorry for those who grieve for him... Thank you, Eric, for the updates. *--- --- A.S. Zanoni Personal Assistant to Steven Brust Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 14:35:14 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:35:14 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20060629155613.02625940@cox.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606291435w7258c3c1o88f947da3a023aac@mail.gmail.com> On 6/29/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Perhaps Dolivar died, went to the Halls of Judgment, spent 240,000 years > as a purple robe, then as "punishment" for betraying Kieron, was allowed > only to reincarnate as an Easterner? Maybe... but in /Jhereg/, Vlad does have that line that says something like, "Though the millenia, Aliera has always been just a little bit faster than me," which implies a long association, multiple incarnations, and at least a visceral memory of previous incarnations. Or I'm reading too much into a fatalistic verbal grimace. -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu Jun 29 14:37:24 2006 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:37:24 -0700 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: After all, isn't fan just short for fanatic ? James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >From: "A.S. Zanoni" >Reply-To: fairhair at gmail.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Fandom >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:20:25 -0700 > >dragaera-request at dragaera.info wrote: > >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:07:52 -0400 >From: Kenneth Gorelick >Subject: Re: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 > >On Jun 29, 2006, at 8:58 AM, eshivak wrote: > > > > All, > > > > > > Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake > > > (I'm on his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. > > > > > > Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... > > > > > > http://david-drake.com/baen.html > > > > >Thanks so much for sharing. I have been an avid SF reader since 3rd >grade (ca 1959) although I am not a "fan" in the sense of Fandom. I >don't know much about the players in the field but I know the authors >whom I enjoy. This is the only list I read (and occasionally write). >Baen's books were among the ones I looked for, because I enjoyed his >writers. > >The giants of my youth are mostly gone (Heinlein, Asimov, Campbell, >etc.) and now it seems those of my middle years are at risk. (As an >aside, survivors of thalamic stroke generally are not a happy crew-- >Mr. Baen had the better possible outcome). > >Please pass my thanks to Mr. Drake for his eloquence. > >Ken > >------------------------------ > >Fandom. > >I don't know why many sf/f readers feel they are not "part of fandom". >There isn't a rule that says a Real Fan has to attend conventions... or run >a fanzine/ezine... or wear costumes that match a particular motif... or >write fanfic... or be on sf/f newsgroups... or participate in running >conventions... or write letters to F&SF or Asimov's [or even read either of >'em]... or be part of a local sf/f group that may or may not do any number >of those things. > >I could go on and on. I'll spare you. > >You don't even have to *just* be a reader. Yes, that happens to be the >core of my being a fan, but surely I am no guide to anyone else. > >It still freaks me out that people in NASA follow Star Trek avidly. [No, I >don't know why, it just does.] Nothing wrong with that either. I like >Babylon 5 and Firefly, but you certainly don't have to, or even think that >they're of any value. =shrug= > >I'd say all that matters is that you enjoy what YOU call science fiction, >or spec fiction, or whatever you call it. Or fantasy. Or horror. >Including any flavor combination of those lovely marketing categories. >Nothing wrong with the lines being blurred as to what you're reading >either. > >These are all my opinions. Can't blame them on the parrot. :> > > > >Aside: > >Am sorry for the loss of Jim Baen. I am most sorry for those who grieve >for him... Thank you, Eric, for the updates. > >*--- > >--- >A.S. Zanoni >Personal Assistant to Steven Brust > >Steven's Travel & Event Schedule: >http://www.angelfire.com/fang/dreamcafe_chica From scott at cjhunter.com Thu Jun 29 14:49:51 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:49:51 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20060629155613.02625940@cox.net> Message-ID: <552b01c69bc5$f317e590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >I am a bit confused. >Wasn't there a point made (in _Jhereg_)that Vlad's soul is actually a >brother to Keiron the Conqueror, the founder of the Jhereg? Yes. Hence the speculation about whether his soul "belongs" in the Halls or not. >Maybe souls are sent back, but the individual who receives the >recycled sould evidently doesn't have a memory. That certainly seems to be the case. Even Aliera says that she knows about her past lives because Sethra helped her to relive them. >And I have no idea >why Vlad received the soul of a Dragaeran--maybe the gods wanted a >"quick fix" for something, and to beings that live 2 or 3 millenia, a >human lifetime is almost like nothing at all? Yes, that's entirely possible. Aliera thinks of it as a kind of poetic justice. Considering the friends Vlad has made, the fact that they all have Great Weapons, and that Godslayer has conveniently showed up in the posession of a person who has exactly the right background for using it (assassin versed in two different schools of magic)I am inclined to believe that Dolivar's reincarnation as an Easterner was no accident. Verra or some other God set it up this way for a reason, even if the only reason is "it feels like I should do this". The fact that Vlad will die quickly compared to a Dragaeran could be construed to be some sort of fail-safe designed to get Godslayer back out of commission "quickly" once its purpose has been served. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 14:53:47 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:53:47 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606291435w7258c3c1o88f947da3a023aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 02:35 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Old Age? >On 6/29/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Perhaps Dolivar died, went to the Halls of Judgment, spent 240,000 years >> as a purple robe, then as "punishment" for betraying Kieron, was allowed >> only to reincarnate as an Easterner? > >Maybe... but in /Jhereg/, Vlad does have that line that says something >like, "Though the millenia, Aliera has always been just a little bit >faster than me," which implies a long association, multiple >incarnations, and at least a visceral memory of previous incarnations. Hmmm... Analyzing semantic content of "Through the millenia"... (A long time has passed...) Scanning for implication of multiple incarnations.... (None detected.) Loading Visceral Memory Detection Sub-Process... (Not required for truth of statement to apply.) I don't think it means what you think it means. >Or I'm reading too much into a fatalistic verbal grimace. It seems likely. Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 14:57:31 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:57:31 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: References: <2ddbda5f0606291435w7258c3c1o88f947da3a023aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606291457p33941823qa05f4610881ce801@mail.gmail.com> On 6/29/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > Loading Visceral Memory Detection Sub-Process... (Not required for truth > of statement to apply.) But required for Vlad to know whether the statement is true or not. But I've been known to say similar things myself, in a less-than-serious mood. -Maximilian -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Thu Jun 29 15:04:08 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:04:08 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <2ddbda5f0606291457p33941823qa05f4610881ce801@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Maximilian Wilson" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 02:57 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: Old Age? >On 6/29/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: >> Loading Visceral Memory Detection Sub-Process... (Not required for truth >> of statement to apply.) > >But required for Vlad to know whether the statement is true or not. Vlad is certainly not the type of person to say something that he doesn't know is true. >But I've been known to say similar things myself, in a less-than-serious mood. How's my dead-pan? ;-) Majikjon From Markleaf at earthlink.net Thu Jun 29 18:08:47 2006 From: Markleaf at earthlink.net (Maria Manemann) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:08:47 -0500 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> Scott Schultz wrote: > > * Hiding in a pile of garbage for an entire day > > * Far too much potato soup I believe both of these refer to "Phoenix". The former to when Vlad is planning his assassination of the King; the later to his captivity after he gets caught. Maria From ReVibe68 at aol.com Thu Jun 29 20:52:35 2006 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:52:35 EDT Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 Message-ID: <567.ae06a.31d5fa03@aol.com> Oh dear God in heaven. The world is now a dimmer place forever. R.I.P. Most Esteemed and Honored Sir. You are missed. From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 21:48:03 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:48:03 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> References: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 6/29/06, Maria Manemann wrote: > Scott Schultz wrote: > > > > > * Hiding in a pile of garbage for an entire day Actually, for half a day, it says in /Orca/. > > * Far too much potato soup > > > I believe both of these refer to "Phoenix". The former to when Vlad > is planning his assassination of the King; the later to his captivity > after he gets caught. Do you know, I think you may have entirely got it. I could have sworn there was a another reference to Vlad being held captive in the East which involved the potato soup, but after checking using Amazon, I seem to have imagined it. It does seem odd that Morrolan should ask about Vlad being a captive by other than the Empire, since he (Morrolan) was in on the rescue mission to Greenaere when Vlad was in point of being held captive there, but perhaps Morrolan's memory is also like a whatchacallit. The line in /Phoenix/ about the garbage pit is very brief, but it could well have been a longer period of time than Vlad makes it sound at that time. Or perhaps he is exaggerating in /Orca/. From lincicum at comcast.net Thu Jun 29 22:25:36 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:25:36 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <44A4B5D0.5050604@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/29/06, Maria Manemann wrote: >> > * Far too much potato soup >> >> I believe both of these refer to "Phoenix". The former to when Vlad >> is planning his assassination of the King; the later to his captivity >> after he gets caught. > > Do you know, I think you may have entirely got it. > > I could have sworn there was a another reference to Vlad being held > captive in the East which involved the potato soup, but after checking > using Amazon, I seem to have imagined it. Well, Vlad's meals when captive on Greenaere are pretty accounted for (he lists them) and involve no mention of potato soup. Interestingly, Potato soup *is* mentioned in /Brokedown Palace/ as a part of the feast for Miklos during his return to the family. So, potato soup is common in the east. Vlad has been to the east, which is outside of the Empire. He's been imprisioned outside of the empire, and that imprisonment resulted in far too much potato soup. It's not too far a leap to imagine that this all might have happened in Fenario. Perhaps this is where this thought came from? (I seem to recall making this as a speculative point some time back on the wiki...) Majikjon From davdisil at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 22:51:23 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 01:51:23 -0400 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <44A4B5D0.5050604@comcast.net> References: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> <44A4B5D0.5050604@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/30/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 6/29/06, Maria Manemann wrote: > >> > * Far too much potato soup > >> > >> I believe both of these refer to "Phoenix". The former to when Vlad > >> is planning his assassination of the King; the later to his captivity > >> after he gets caught. > > > > Do you know, I think you may have entirely got it. > > > > I could have sworn there was a another reference to Vlad being held > > captive in the East which involved the potato soup, but after checking > > using Amazon, I seem to have imagined it. > Well, Vlad's meals when captive on Greenaere are pretty accounted for > (he lists them) and involve no mention of potato soup. Hm. Well, perhaps I am reading "The latest one, the remains of which were on a wooden plate on the floor next to me, involved boiled vegetables and a bit of fish" and interpolating that the boiled vegetables were mostly potatoes. > > So, potato soup is common in the east. Vlad has been to the east, which > is outside of the Empire. He's been imprisioned outside of the empire, > and that imprisonment resulted in far too much potato soup. It's not too > far a leap to imagine that this all might have happened in Fenario. There is also mention of a spicy potato soup at Valabar's. I suspect that if the potato soup had been prepared in the style of Ambrus and/or Valabar's, Vlad would not have thought of it as a bad thing. From lincicum at comcast.net Fri Jun 30 05:31:02 2006 From: lincicum at comcast.net (Jon Lincicum) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:31:02 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: References: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> <44A4B5D0.5050604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44A51986.8010205@comcast.net> Davdi Silverrock wrote: > On 6/30/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> Well, Vlad's meals when captive on Greenaere are pretty accounted for >> (he lists them) and involve no mention of potato soup. > > Hm. Well, perhaps I am reading > > "The latest one, the remains of which were on a wooden plate on the > floor next to me, involved boiled vegetables and a bit of fish" > > and interpolating that the boiled vegetables were mostly potatoes. ...wondering how one eats soup out of a wooden plate... Boiled Vegetables != Soup So even if they *were* potatoes, I'm not convinced. > There is also mention of a spicy potato soup at Valabar's. > > I suspect that if the potato soup had been prepared in the style of > Ambrus and/or Valabar's, Vlad would not have thought of it as a bad > thing. Well, I don't think Ambrus cooks for the prisoners. (Or, if he does, he likely doesn't put as much care into it as for the royal family...) But if Potato Soup is common in Fenario there's probably quite a few different people who make it. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 30 06:07:47 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:07:47 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <20060630024429.62762.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Felix Eisen 06/29/06 07:44 PM To Jon_Lincicum at stream.com cc Subject Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? >>Makijon writes: >>'Vlad says at one point that he was born in a small fishing village, >>implying the family moved to Adrilankha after his birth. This may be >>somewhat contradicted by Noish-Pa's descriptions of the Revolt of 221 >>(given that this is about the time Vlad was born, and was in South >>Adrilankha), but we have no reliable timetable for this, so it's hard to >>be certain. We also don't know if Vlad was telling the truth about his >>birthplace.' > >Having just read the book wherein this is said (Dragon), I think Vlad was going for sarcasm -- 'I assure you, (military reconnaissance) makes up the sole topic of conversation in the small fishing village I >come from' is the loose quote. > >Of course, Adrilankha -is- a 'small fishing village' ... so to speak. I nearly think I completely agree. My point, mostly, was just that we don't know much about Vlad prior to age 16 (just the brief sketch he provides in /Taltos/, which is really rather sparse on details). Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 30 06:26:23 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:26:23 -0700 Subject: Dragaera Wiki needs help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Steve Rapaport" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 12:30 PM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Dragaera Wiki needs help >I must have missed the beginning of this discussion, -- is Wikia threatening >to boot the Lyorn Records due to lack of updates? > >Can't they be put off for another 60 days? It seems to me that the release >of "Dzur" should spur a pretty good round of updates to the wiki. Given the response I've seen to my pleas for help, I do not believe there's too much to worry about... There've been at least 8 unique indivduals posting updates to the wiki in the last two days (thanks, everybody!). Of course, if it gets back to being just me again in a few weeks or months, I'll probably start to get worried again. But, hopefully, by then /Dzur/ will be out and the activity will shoot up again for that reason. >And if it moves things forward as much as I'm hoping, it could nearly double >that wiki's size. Well, having it double in size just due to /Dzur/ may be wishful thinking, but I'm not going to complain if it does. Majikjon From scs at di.org Fri Jun 30 07:52:30 2006 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:52:30 -0400 Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 In-Reply-To: <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> References: <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> Message-ID: <20060630145230.GB7757@di.org> On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:58:11AM -0400, eshivak wrote: > Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake (I'm on > his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. > > Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... He's never been a writer I enjoyed, but he wrote a fine tribute to Jim. Steve S -- "While you may be at your core 'tenderhearted.' I do not doubt your, or any womans, ability to reach in, wrench out a mans heart and talk him into taking a bite. I mean that in a good way." -'fortunecookie', to Hillary at http://bbs.chrismoore.com/viewtopic.php?p=82531 From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 30 08:19:52 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:19:52 -0600 Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 In-Reply-To: <20060630145230.GB7757@di.org> References: <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> <20060630145230.GB7757@di.org> Message-ID: <44A54118.3030202@brazee.net> Steve Simmons wrote: >On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:58:11AM -0400, eshivak wrote: > >> Sorry if I'm the bearer of ill tidings but according to David Drake (I'm on >> his newsletter group) Jim Baen died yesterday. >> >> Mr. Drake says it FAR better than I ever could... > >He's never been a writer I enjoyed, but he wrote a fine tribute to Jim. > >Steve S > > Yes he did. I had a couple of his books that I didn't do anything for me, but before he went to MileHiCon, I picked up some more. Of the selection I found, I discovered his RCN series which I really liked. The latest book of that series I bought in hardbound, and I will buy the next one in hardbound. I only have a handful of authors whose books don't warrant waiting until paperback. Drake's RCN series (but not his other stuff) is there. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 30 09:27:41 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 30 Jun 2006 11:27:41 -0500 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87wtay7gn6.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Jon_Lincicum at stream.com writes: > "Maximilian Wilson" > >On 6/29/06, Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > >> Perhaps Dolivar died, went to the Halls of Judgment, spent 240,000 > years > >> as a purple robe, then as "punishment" for betraying Kieron, was > allowed > >> only to reincarnate as an Easterner? > > > >Maybe... but in /Jhereg/, Vlad does have that line that says something > >like, "Though the millenia, Aliera has always been just a little bit > >faster than me," which implies a long association, multiple > >incarnations, and at least a visceral memory of previous incarnations. > > Hmmm... Analyzing semantic content of "Through the millenia"... (A long > time has passed...) > Scanning for implication of multiple incarnations.... (None detected.) > Loading Visceral Memory Detection Sub-Process... (Not required for truth > of statement to apply.) Gotta disagree. The phrasing clearly implies personal experience spanning millenia -- not just Vlad's lifespan. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 30 09:31:54 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 30 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0500 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> Message-ID: <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "A.S. Zanoni" writes: > Fandom. > > I don't know why many sf/f readers feel they are not "part of > fandom". There isn't a rule that says a Real Fan has to attend > conventions... or run a fanzine/ezine... or wear costumes that match a > particular motif... or write fanfic... or be on sf/f newsgroups... or > participate in running conventions... or write letters to F&SF or > Asimov's [or even read either of 'em]... or be part of a local sf/f > group that may or may not do any number of those things. > > I could go on and on. I'll spare you. Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and bad feelings on both sides. Which is unfortuntate. Our fannish use of "fan" is contrary to the common usage, but there really needs to be *some* term for people who choose to associate themselves with the cultural stream of fandom and I, and others apparently, are loathe to give up the term we've used for 70 years to identify ourselves. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From shawnb at stanford.edu Fri Jun 30 09:44:41 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:44:41 -0700 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20060630164453.CDBF1E9426@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera- > bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of David Dyer-Bennet > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:32 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Fandom > > "A.S. Zanoni" writes: > > > Fandom. > > > > I don't know why many sf/f readers feel they are not "part of > > fandom". There isn't a rule that says a Real Fan has to attend > > conventions... or run a fanzine/ezine... or wear costumes that match a > > particular motif... or write fanfic... or be on sf/f newsgroups... or > > participate in running conventions... or write letters to F&SF or > > Asimov's [or even read either of 'em]... or be part of a local sf/f > > group that may or may not do any number of those things. > > > > I could go on and on. I'll spare you. > > Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term > "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't > involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has > caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying > to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and > bad feelings on both sides. > > Which is unfortuntate. Our fannish use of "fan" is contrary to the > common usage, but there really needs to be *some* term for people who > choose to associate themselves with the cultural stream of fandom and > I, and others apparently, are loathe to give up the term we've used > for 70 years to identify ourselves. > -- There is a term already; it's "geek". This is broadly applicable across the range of things one can be enthusiastic about without requiring professional involvement: car geeks, stamp geeks, model train geeks, computer geeks, gun geeks, music geeks. This term has, I think, become less derogatory as it is embraced by the geeks themselves (well, you might get a punch in the nose by calling the car enthusiast a "geek", but that's what he is). So embrace the geekiness. Readers are fans. Geeks are fans. But readers are not geeks. There. You have your division. Shawn From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Jun 30 09:11:57 2006 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:11:57 -0500 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term >"reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't >involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has >caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying >to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and >bad feelings on both sides. > > Silly. Those other guys are fans, we are fen. No, I don't know why we aren't in fendom and don't speak fennish, but these are the quirks of the language. Mia From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jun 30 09:59:26 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:59:26 -0400 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44A5586E.6090702@email.ers.usda.gov> Mia McDavid wrote: > > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >> Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term >> "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't >> involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has >> caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying >> to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and >> bad feelings on both sides. >> >> > Silly. Those other guys are fans, we are fen. No, I don't know why > we aren't in fendom and don't speak fennish, but these are the quirks > of the language. > Though, IIRC, Lin Carter wrote an essay for =If= (anyone here from the '60s still remember that mag?) decades ago in which he asserted that fen indeed spoke fennish at one time. Ghod, that takes me back with a vengeance (-; Snarkhunter From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 30 10:25:03 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0700 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/30/06 09:31 AM To dragaera at dragaera.info cc Subject Re: Fandom >Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term >"reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't >involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has >caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying >to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and >bad feelings on both sides. > >Which is unfortuntate. Our fannish use of "fan" is contrary to the >common usage, but there really needs to be *some* term for people who >choose to associate themselves with the cultural stream of fandom and >I, and others apparently, are loathe to give up the term we've used >for 70 years to identify ourselves. It would be nice if everyone could agree on an exact term for a large group of people like fen. The Indians probably had an exact word for this. The Negroes too. Oh, and those Orientals. Even Esikmos are probably more precise in their terminology. Okay, yes, hah hah, very funny. My point being that any term for any group of people is likely to be imprecise, as people are all a bit different from one another, not identical automotons that can be grouped into discrete categories. (What was it Vlad said about categories?) If you ask people whether they consider themselves a "geek", a "fan", a member of "fen", a "reader" or an "enthusiast", you'll always get a slightly different answer. So who's right? Majikjon From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 11:15:12 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:15:12 -0700 Subject: Jim Baen - October 22, 1943 - June 28, 2006 In-Reply-To: <44A54118.3030202@brazee.net> References: <44A380FE.1080907@dreamcafe.com> <001601c69b7b$ad421670$0202fea9@milo2> <20060630145230.GB7757@di.org> <44A54118.3030202@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606301115u347da887ib01ec276a406845a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/06, Howard Brazee wrote: > I had a couple of his books that I didn't do anything for me, but before > he went to MileHiCon, I picked up some more. Of the selection I found, > I discovered his RCN series which I really liked. The latest book of > that series I bought in hardbound, and I will buy the next one in > hardbound. I only have a handful of authors whose books don't warrant > waiting until paperback. Drake's RCN series (but not his other stuff) > is there. Seconded. I enjoyed /Northworld/, but never really got into any other Drake solo novels until RCN. The first volume in the series is available for online in Baen's free library: http://www.baen.com/library/0671578863/0671578863.htm Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 30 11:13:01 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:13:01 -0400 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <44A5586E.6090702@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> <44A5586E.6090702@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <03F389E3-FEF1-4BC0-B362-2828A0F70BFA@mac.com> On Jun 30, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Ken Koester wrote: > Mia McDavid wrote: > >> >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> >>> Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term >>> "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't >>> involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf >>> has >>> caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are >>> trying >>> to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and >>> bad feelings on both sides. >>> >> Silly. Those other guys are fans, we are fen. No, I don't know >> why we aren't in fendom and don't speak fennish, but these are the >> quirks of the language. >> > Though, IIRC, Lin Carter wrote an essay for =If= (anyone here from > the '60s still remember that mag?) decades ago in which he asserted > that fen indeed spoke fennish at one time. Ghod, that takes me > back with a vengeance (-; > > Snarkhunter > Remember If, thought Analog and Galaxy were my preferred poison in those days. Is Ghod like alcoholh? From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov Fri Jun 30 11:50:43 2006 From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:50:43 -0400 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <03F389E3-FEF1-4BC0-B362-2828A0F70BFA@mac.com> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> <44A5586E.6090702@email.ers.usda.gov> <03F389E3-FEF1-4BC0-B362-2828A0F70BFA@mac.com> Message-ID: <44A57283.6060406@email.ers.usda.gov> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > On Jun 30, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Ken Koester wrote: > >> Mia McDavid wrote: >> >>> >>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >>> >>>> Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term >>>> "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't >>>> involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has >>>> caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying >>>> to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and >>>> bad feelings on both sides. >>>> >>> Silly. Those other guys are fans, we are fen. No, I don't know >>> why we aren't in fendom and don't speak fennish, but these are the >>> quirks of the language. >>> >> Though, IIRC, Lin Carter wrote an essay for =If= (anyone here from >> the '60s still remember that mag?) decades ago in which he asserted >> that fen indeed spoke fennish at one time. Ghod, that takes me back >> with a vengeance (-; >> >> Snarkhunter >> > Remember If, thought Analog and Galaxy were my preferred poison in > those days. Is Ghod like alcoholh? Don't think so. Fen sorta came up with it duringh the 30s-40s time frame. I think that would have made it Ghalaxy, BTW, if it had been around (-; LinC reports someone with an advanced stereo pointing all the speakers at NJ from NY & playingh the 1812 Overture full bore, makingh residents think they were beingh attacked! There was a schismatic version of ghod-ism, but I don't recall the particulars. . . . Snarkhunter > > From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 30 12:14:31 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 30 Jun 2006 14:14:31 -0500 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <20060630164453.CDBF1E9426@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20060630164453.CDBF1E9426@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <87psgqlalk.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "Shawn Burns" writes: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera- > > bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of David Dyer-Bennet > > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:32 AM > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: Fandom > > > > "A.S. Zanoni" writes: > > > > > Fandom. > > > > > > I don't know why many sf/f readers feel they are not "part of > > > fandom". There isn't a rule that says a Real Fan has to attend > > > conventions... or run a fanzine/ezine... or wear costumes that match a > > > particular motif... or write fanfic... or be on sf/f newsgroups... or > > > participate in running conventions... or write letters to F&SF or > > > Asimov's [or even read either of 'em]... or be part of a local sf/f > > > group that may or may not do any number of those things. > > > > > > I could go on and on. I'll spare you. > > > > Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term > > "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't > > involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf has > > caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are trying > > to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and > > bad feelings on both sides. > > > > Which is unfortuntate. Our fannish use of "fan" is contrary to the > > common usage, but there really needs to be *some* term for people who > > choose to associate themselves with the cultural stream of fandom and > > I, and others apparently, are loathe to give up the term we've used > > for 70 years to identify ourselves. > > -- > > There is a term already; it's "geek". This is broadly applicable across the > range of things one can be enthusiastic about without requiring professional > involvement: car geeks, stamp geeks, model train geeks, computer geeks, gun > geeks, music geeks. This term has, I think, become less derogatory as it is > embraced by the geeks themselves (well, you might get a punch in the nose by > calling the car enthusiast a "geek", but that's what he is). Oh, no, geek means something quite different, and rather more specific, too. And, most particularly, it *doesn't* mean connection to the cultural stream originating from Gernsback publishing addresses in the letter column of Amazing Stories. > So embrace the geekiness. Readers are fans. Geeks are fans. But readers are > not geeks. There. You have your division. Hey, I'm a software engineer professionally and run servers and implement web sites as a hobby. I'm pretty thoroughly in touch with my inner geek. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 30 12:15:44 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 30 Jun 2006 14:15:44 -0500 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <03F389E3-FEF1-4BC0-B362-2828A0F70BFA@mac.com> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> <44A5586E.6090702@email.ers.usda.gov> <03F389E3-FEF1-4BC0-B362-2828A0F70BFA@mac.com> Message-ID: <87lkrelajj.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> Kenneth Gorelick writes: > On Jun 30, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Ken Koester wrote: > > > Mia McDavid wrote: > > > >> > >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >> > >>> Huh; for me, "fan" means somebody involved in fandom. The term > >>> "reader" was the traditional term for, well, readers, who weren't > >>> involved in fandom. The appearance of significant tv and film sf > >>> has > >>> caused that to not really be the right term, and so people are > >>> trying > >>> to fall back on "fan" and this is causing all sorts of confusion and > >>> bad feelings on both sides. > >>> > >> Silly. Those other guys are fans, we are fen. No, I don't know > >> why we aren't in fendom and don't speak fennish, but these are the > >> quirks of the language. > >> > > Though, IIRC, Lin Carter wrote an essay for =If= (anyone here from > > the '60s still remember that mag?) decades ago in which he asserted > > that fen indeed spoke fennish at one time. Ghod, that takes me > > back with a vengeance (-; > > > > Snarkhunter > > > Remember If, thought Analog and Galaxy were my preferred poison in > those days. Is Ghod like alcoholh? Ghod is like bheer. I had If and Galaxy subscriptions at one point. At other points I've had F&SF and Analog. Never had Asimov's -- danged upstarts. And it was mostly wasted money, because I was too late. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From kublakhan73 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 30 10:14:09 2006 From: kublakhan73 at hotmail.com (Jeremy Tassoff) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:14:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Superman Returns (Implied Spoilers) Message-ID: I saw Superman Returns on Wednesday night. Overall, I considered the movie entertaining and a creditable effort, but nothing I'd go out of my way to see more than once. The critics gave it an average rating of "B-", and I'd say that's about right. Anyway, what I thought I'd share with the list was something that kept popping into my head every time the subject of the romantic involvement between Superman and Lois Lane came up during the movie (i.e. fairly frequently). Has anyone ever read or heard of Larry Niven's short story "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"? Niven speculates as to what the consequences of an intimate relationship between a human woman and a Kryptonian male. Here's a link: http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html I figured it would be an interesting off-topic thread to kick off... One who indulges in gluttony is a glutton. A person who commits a felony is a felon...God is an iron. - Spider Robinson _________________________________________________________________ Add photos, news, and blogs about the World Cup to your Live.com homepage! http://www.live.com/getstarted From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 30 12:28:08 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:28:08 -0600 Subject: OT: Superman Returns (Implied Spoilers) Message-ID: <44A57B48.30309@brazee.net> On 11:14 AM Jeremy Tassoff wrote: > Anyway, what I thought I'd share with the list was something that > kept popping into my head every time the subject of the romantic > involvement between Superman and Lois Lane came up during the movie > (i.e. fairly frequently). Has anyone ever read or heard of Larry > Niven's short story "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"? Niven > speculates as to what the consequences of an intimate relationship > between a human woman and a Kryptonian male. Here's a link: > http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html > Has anybody *not* heard of it? From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 30 12:33:34 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:33:34 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <552b01c69bc5$f317e590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/29/06 02:49 PM To "'Brust list'" cc Subject RE: Old Age? >Yes. Hence the speculation about whether his soul "belongs" in the Halls or >not. > >That certainly seems to be the case. Even Aliera says that she knows about >her past lives because Sethra helped her to relive them. > So, I wonder if when Vlad dies, assuming his soul is not destroyed, does he reincarnate as a Dragaeran, or an Easterner again? If it's as a Dragaeran, when the /next/ individual with Dolivar's soul dies, he can *then* get into the Paths again? Or is it "Once an Easterner, always an Easterner"? (I don't think we can really answer this given available data, but it's certainly a head-scratcher.) Majikjon From howard at brazee.net Fri Jun 30 12:43:38 2006 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:43:38 -0600 Subject: Old Age? Message-ID: <44A57EEA.4090808@brazee.net> On 1:33 PM Jon_Lincicum at stream.com wrote: > So, I wonder if when Vlad dies, assuming his soul is not destroyed, > does > he reincarnate as a Dragaeran, or an Easterner again? > > If it's as a Dragaeran, when the /next/ individual with Dolivar's > soul > dies, he can *then* get into the Paths again? > > Or is it "Once an Easterner, always an Easterner"? > > (I don't think we can really answer this given available data, but > it's certainly a head-scratcher.) There appear to be different rules for Easterners, as there are with most myths involving elves and men. My guess is that if Vlad dies, his days of reincarnation are over. But there are some traditional alternatives for heroes - look at Frodo. And there's always promotion. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 12:47:19 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:47:19 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: <44A51986.8010205@comcast.net> References: <44A4799F.7010501@earthlink.net> <44A4B5D0.5050604@comcast.net> <44A51986.8010205@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 6/30/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > On 6/30/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: > >> Well, Vlad's meals when captive on Greenaere are pretty accounted for > >> (he lists them) and involve no mention of potato soup. > > > > Hm. Well, perhaps I am reading > > > > "The latest one, the remains of which were on a wooden plate on the > > floor next to me, involved boiled vegetables and a bit of fish" > > > > and interpolating that the boiled vegetables were mostly potatoes. > ...wondering how one eats soup out of a wooden plate... > > Boiled Vegetables != Soup > > So even if they *were* potatoes, I'm not convinced. > Well, I suppose I have no further argument on this matter, really. Perhaps there may have been potato soup among the other bad food he describes, and simply declines to mention it at the time. Meh. However, I have been thinking about it, and it occurs to me that Vlad's ability to teleport raises a serious question about *how* Vlad might have possibly been held captive in the East, if indeed he was. We know that his ability to teleport was blocked by Phoenix Stone on Greenaere (and possibly in the Imperial Prisons as well - Morrolan gets a chunk from there, as I recall). What could have prevented him from teleporting away from any captors in the East? Even a poor sorcerer like Vlad is more than a match for anything the East has to offer. Hm. Unless the end of /Brokedown Palace/ is meant to imply that the Orb cuts off entirely in the East now. From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 13:01:29 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:01:29 -0700 Subject: OT: Superman Returns (Implied Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <44A57B48.30309@brazee.net> References: <44A57B48.30309@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606301301o6588540eg1290b98d665e1812@mail.gmail.com> One sperm arrives before the others. It penetrates the egg, forms a lump on it's surface, the cell wall now thickens to prevent other sperm From entering. Within the now-fertilized egg, changes take place... And ten million kryptonian sperm arrive slightly late. Were they human sperm, they would be out of luck. But these tiny blind things are more powerful than a locomotive. A thickened cell wall won't stop them. They will *all* enter the egg, obliterating it entirely in an orgy of microscopic gang rape. So much for artificial insemination. Heh. -Max Wilson -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From davdisil at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 13:06:00 2006 From: davdisil at gmail.com (Davdi Silverrock) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:06:00 -0700 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again Message-ID: I was browsing through the excellent linguistic resource Language Log, and discoved a page that had the following: [cite] The small child of a friend of mine once said "The sun makes you hot and sneeze," [/cite] While the sentence was brought up for its linguistic implications, I could not help but be reminded of the following posts from the archives: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4239 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4276 http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4288 Which in turn makes me wonder: Is there anyone else on this list besides SKZB who is a photic sneezer? I myself am not, and the first post above was the first time I had heard of such a thing. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 30 13:04:35 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 30 Jun 2006 15:04:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Superman Returns (Implied Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87y7ve4dgs.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "Jeremy Tassoff" writes: > Anyway, what I thought I'd share with the list was something that > kept popping into my head every time the subject of the romantic > involvement between Superman and Lois Lane came up during the movie > (i.e. fairly frequently). Has anyone ever read or heard of Larry > Niven's short story "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"? Niven > speculates as to what the consequences of an intimate relationship > between a human woman and a Kryptonian male. Here's a link: > http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html I haven't seen the movie, but I was thinking of that very article when I saw a trailer for it recently. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From scott at cjhunter.com Fri Jun 30 13:01:51 2006 From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:01:51 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <44A57EEA.4090808@brazee.net> Message-ID: <6e8601c69c80$07333060$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> >There appear to be different rules for Easterners, as there are with >most myths involving elves and men. My guess is that if Vlad dies, >his days of reincarnation are over. Consider Vlad's conversation with the ghost of Franz. Vlad appears to believe that Franz WILL reincarnate as soon as a suitable host fetus is conceived. "Suitable" isn't clarified, nor do we know whether Vlad was taught this by Noish-pa or if he learned it or inferred it based upon his knowledge and experience with Dragaeran life and death. Unfortunately, it's all we've got to work with. We do know that Franz didn't go to any sort of Eastern Halls of Judgement. Or course, we don't really know what happens to a Dragaeran who is denied Deathsgate, either. It might just be the general case that anyone who fails to take the Paths of the Dead is doomed to haunt the area of his death until a suitable reincarnation opportunity is presented. It might also be that Of course, Vlad may just be all wet also. From shawnb at stanford.edu Fri Jun 30 13:18:50 2006 From: shawnb at stanford.edu (Shawn Burns) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:18:50 -0700 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060630201909.B012AE962E@gw.dd-b.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info [mailto:dragaera- > bounces at dragaera.info] On Behalf Of Davdi Silverrock > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 1:06 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Photic Sneezing, again > > I was browsing through the excellent linguistic resource Language Log, > and discoved a page that had the following: > > [cite] The small child of a friend of mine once said "The sun makes > you hot and sneeze," [/cite] > > While the sentence was brought up for its linguistic implications, I > could not help but be reminded of the following posts from the > archives: > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4239 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4276 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4288 > > Which in turn makes me wonder: Is there anyone else on this list > besides SKZB who is a photic sneezer? > > I myself am not, and the first post above was the first time I had > heard of such a thing. I'm not a photic sneezer, but both my father and I sneeze after eating a large meal. When I was a kid I used to tease my father by telling him he was full up to his nose. It was funny when I was 7. Now that I get full up to my nose it's not so funny. From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 30 13:15:15 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:15:15 -0700 Subject: Old Age? In-Reply-To: <6e8601c69c80$07333060$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> Message-ID: "Scott Schultz" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/30/06 01:01 PM To "'Dragaera (E-mail)'" cc Subject RE: Old Age? >Consider Vlad's conversation with the ghost of Franz. Vlad appears to >believe that Franz WILL reincarnate as soon as a suitable host fetus is >conceived. "Suitable" isn't clarified, nor do we know whether Vlad was >taught this by Noish-pa or if he learned it or inferred it based upon his >knowledge and experience with Dragaeran life and death. Vlad was quoting Yain Cho Lin, the Eastern poet-seer on this point. Of course, this doesn't mean it's right... I do recall a quote by Aliera in /Taltos/ talking to Verra where she says Easterner souls aren't really any different than Dragaeran ones, also.. >Unfortunately, it's all we've got to work with. We do know that Franz didn't >go to any sort of Eastern Halls of Judgement. Or course, we don't really >know what happens to a Dragaeran who is denied Deathsgate, either. It might >just be the general case that anyone who fails to take the Paths of the Dead >is doomed to haunt the area of his death until a suitable reincarnation >opportunity is presented. It might also be that They're supposed to go to their own Plane of Waiting Souls. (Or so says /The Book of the Seven Wizards/). >Of course, Vlad may just be all wet also. Quite possible. Majikjon From Jon_Lincicum at stream.com Fri Jun 30 13:22:59 2006 From: Jon_Lincicum at stream.com (Jon_Lincicum at stream.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:22:59 -0700 Subject: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Davdi Silverrock" Sent by: dragaera-bounces at dragaera.info 06/30/06 12:47 PM To "Dragaera List" cc Subject Re: What are the obvious hanging plot hooks? >On 6/30/06, Jon Lincicum wrote: >> >> Boiled Vegetables != Soup >> >> So even if they *were* potatoes, I'm not convinced. >> > >Well, I suppose I have no further argument on this matter, really. >Perhaps there may have been potato soup among the other bad food he >describes, and simply declines to mention it at the time. Meh. There's certainly room for SKZB to decide that Vlad simply declined to mention the potato soup during this imprisonment. Or to show a separate imprisonment where he *does* get crammed full of the stuff. Or maybe he'll just sit back and let us stew over it? (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.) >However, I have been thinking about it, and it occurs to me that >Vlad's ability to teleport raises a serious question about *how* Vlad >might have possibly been held captive in the East, if indeed he was. > >We know that his ability to teleport was blocked by Phoenix Stone on >Greenaere (and possibly in the Imperial Prisons as well - Morrolan >gets a chunk from there, as I recall). > >What could have prevented him from teleporting away from any captors >in the East? Even a poor sorcerer like Vlad is more than a match for >anything the East has to offer. > >Hm. Unless the end of /Brokedown Palace/ is meant to imply that the >Orb cuts off entirely in the East now. Sandor, at least, seemed to think that this was the case, at least within Fenario, as he fell to his death... Majikjon From casey at the-bat.net Fri Jun 30 13:33:44 2006 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:33:44 -0400 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004401c69c84$7d0e8ec0$5b01a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Davdi Silverrock wondered > Is there anyone else on this list besides SKZB > who is a photic sneezer? I am, to some degree. At least, I can get a sneeze that is not quite there to come by looking at a moderately bright light source. Bright lights don't always cause me to sneeze, though. Casey From wilson.max at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 13:36:36 2006 From: wilson.max at gmail.com (Maximilian Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:36:36 -0700 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ddbda5f0606301336t667ec10dw83baa96802b27892@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/06, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Which in turn makes me wonder: Is there anyone else on this list > besides SKZB who is a photic sneezer? I'm not sure. It sounds like photic sneezing is triggered by bright lights; intense sunlight sometimes makes me sneeze, but it's more the radiant energy on my face than anything optic. (Bright lights, for instance, do nothing to me.) -Max -- Be pretty if you are, Be witty if you can, But be cheerful if it kills you. From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Jun 30 13:42:29 2006 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:42:29 -0400 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again Message-ID: I am. A really bad one too. On a bright day I can get 6 or 7 sneezes just from walking outside. My Dad is too, but not quite as frequently. From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 30 14:04:49 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:04:49 -0400 Subject: Fandom In-Reply-To: <44A57283.6060406@email.ers.usda.gov> References: <20060629170013.30C95E957C@gw.dd-b.net> <44A44419.10605@dreamcafe.com> <87sllm7gg5.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <44A54D4D.1020404@comcast.net> <44A5586E.6090702@email.ers.usda.gov> <03F389E3-FEF1-4BC0-B362-2828A0F70BFA@mac.com> <44A57283.6060406@email.ers.usda.gov> Message-ID: <266A5B3B-AB25-43F7-B6FB-A32A5EF07F7A@mac.com> >>>> >>> Though, IIRC, Lin Carter wrote an essay for =If= (anyone here >>> from the '60s still remember that mag?) decades ago in which he >>> asserted that fen indeed spoke fennish at one time. Ghod, that >>> takes me back with a vengeance (-; >>> >>> Snarkhunter >>> >> Remember If, thought Analog and Galaxy were my preferred poison >> in those days. Is Ghod like alcoholh? > > > Don't think so. Fen sorta came up with it duringh the 30s-40s time > frame. I think that would have made it Ghalaxy, BTW, if it had > been around (-; LinC reports someone with an advanced stereo > pointing all the speakers at NJ from NY & playingh the 1812 > Overture full bore, makingh residents think they were beingh attacked! > > There was a schismatic version of ghod-ism, but I don't recall the > particulars. . . . > > Snarkhunter > >> >> > I just re-read a minor work by David Gerrold called "Chess with a Dragon". In it, they had used "alcoholh" in "bheer", "vhodka", and other beverages to assure that there would be no side effects! Characters complained that alcoholh was not as good as alcohol... From pulmon at mac.com Fri Jun 30 14:08:46 2006 From: pulmon at mac.com (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:08:46 -0400 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 30, 2006, at 4:06 PM, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I was browsing through the excellent linguistic resource Language Log, > and discoved a page that had the following: > > [cite] The small child of a friend of mine once said "The sun makes > you hot and sneeze," [/cite] > > While the sentence was brought up for its linguistic implications, I > could not help but be reminded of the following posts from the > archives: > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4239 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4276 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4288 > > Which in turn makes me wonder: Is there anyone else on this list > besides SKZB who is a photic sneezer? > > I myself am not, and the first post above was the first time I had > heard of such a thing. No, but sometimes I phot after I sneeze... From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 30 14:40:38 2006 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 30 Jun 2006 16:40:38 -0500 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: <004401c69c84$7d0e8ec0$5b01a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <004401c69c84$7d0e8ec0$5b01a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <873bdmfhk9.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> "Casey Rousseau" writes: > Davdi Silverrock wondered > > Is there anyone else on this list besides SKZB > > who is a photic sneezer? > > I am, to some degree. At least, I can get a sneeze that is not quite > there to come by looking at a moderately bright light source. Bright > lights don't always cause me to sneeze, though. That's about where I am, too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Pics: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From celticmadman at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 15:40:25 2006 From: celticmadman at gmail.com (Celti) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:40:25 -0700 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060630154025.5139b3b1@dream.celti.lan> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:06:00 -0700, "Davdi Silverrock" wrote: > I was browsing through the excellent linguistic resource Language Log, > and discoved a page that had the following: > > [cite] The small child of a friend of mine once said "The sun makes > you hot and sneeze," [/cite] > > While the sentence was brought up for its linguistic implications, I > could not help but be reminded of the following posts from the > archives: > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4239 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4276 > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4288 > > Which in turn makes me wonder: Is there anyone else on this list > besides SKZB who is a photic sneezer? > > I myself am not, and the first post above was the first time I had > heard of such a thing. I am, horribly. I live in Phoenix, and when I go outside I start sneezing hard enough you'd think my head would pop off. Doesn't matter if I keep my eyes closed, either - bright light - especially bright and hot light - on my skin, and I pop. From sraun at fireopal.org Fri Jun 30 18:07:43 2006 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:07:43 -0500 Subject: Photic Sneezing, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060701010743.GB10486@fireopal.org> On Fri, Jun 30, 2006 at 01:06:00PM -0700, Davdi Silverrock wrote: > Which in turn makes me wonder: Is there anyone else on this list > besides SKZB who is a photic sneezer? Here! Bright sunshine will set me off 30-50% of the time. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org