Mark A Mandel <mam at theworld.com> writes: > On 17 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel <mam at theworld.com> writes: > > #> I think this is where we came in: whether or not "thinking" can be done > #> without words. If you define it away, then (ISTM) you're opting out of > #> the discussion. > #> > #> When I visualize what would happen to the space in the car trunk if I > #> put THIS suitcase THERE, turned on its side, and then slid THAT box in > #> next to it in SUCH-AND-SUCH orientation and laid THAT bag on top of the > #> box, slipping it in under the overhang JUST SO... I'm *thinking*, by any > #> definition I care to use, but the content of my thinking is largely > #> visual, partly kinesthetic, and only slightly verbal, if at all. Would > #> you call that "non-verbal reasoning"? Why would you not call it > #> "thinking"? > # > #The color matching thing, I simply don't *know*. Too little of it > #takes place anywhere I can see it to have any idea how it's done, so I > #have no opinion if it's thought or what. By one definition everything > #taking place in the human head is thought, but I suspect that of being > #too broad to be useful. > # > #And I think if you can't justify your conclusion, that you haven't > #achieved "thought", or at least you can't *show* that you've achieved > #thought. A guess that happens to be right isn't "thought" as I > #understand it. > > AFAIR, you haven't defined thought, except to say that as you use the > word it requires (internal) verbalization. What do you demand as proof > that I've "achieved thought"? The process of mental manipulation of > shapes that I describe above is generally successful, at a rate well > above chance. Do you demand that verbal "thought" be generally > successful? Please, give me a definition I can work with to answer your > challenge, or else give off. I don't think we're actually disagreeing (yet; but there's hope). Thought is the conscious mental manipulation of symbols to achieve a desired result. It doesn't have to be successful, but you do have to know what you're doing. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info