This is a spin-off from the discussion in the 'Why doesn't anybody *win*?' thread. I changed the subject line because one *ought* to change the subject line when the subject changes. Call me anal. Shut up, Loiosh. Some context -- books at bofh.com writes: books> Sethra: Yes you do, the Necromancer, although I don't recommend you books> try to control her, she's liable to take it wrong. David Dyer-Bennet writes in response: ddb> Other interesting point there -- she's a god except for this one ddb> little detail? Whooo. Then Matthew Hunter replies to David. I'm going to quote him and insert my own comments into the flow. mh> There's a flaw in this logic: we don't have enough information to mh> make the logical jump you are looking for. We know that a God, by mh> definition, cannot be controlled (except for Verra?); we know that mh> a Demon can be controlled (including the Jhereg Demon?); we do NOT mh> know that a Demon which gains immunity from control becomes a God. mh> IOW, just because the Necromancer is a Demon doesn't mean she is a mh> single step away from Godhood. Hmmm . . . a careful, cautious interpretation. But if you back up a few paragraphs, we find Sethra giving a fuller definition on pg 34-35: . . . "Ask, rather, *What* are the gods? What freaks of chance, what hidden talents, what cataclysmic events combined to produce those whom your people worship, and mine strive to emulate? Is their power acquired only because there are those who worship them? Is their power, in fact, imaginary? There are no simple answers to the question you have asked, because everything is tied to everything else." I [Vlad] drank klava, and listened. "Part of the answer to the question I have posed is this: The gods are beings who are able to manifest in at least two places at once, and yet who are not subject to the forcible control of any other being; this marking the difference between a god and a demon." I'll come back to this in a minute. On the Jhereg named Demon -- A bit further in the same conversation is this bit. Vlad is speaking: "I don't think I've ever met a demon," I said. "Unless a certain Jhereg who goes by that name means it more literally than I think he does." "You have," said Sethra, "The Necromancer." In her response, I believe Sethra is saying both that the Demon is not a demon, and that The Necromancer is. Which brings me to Gods, gods, and capitalization. Sethra (or rather, Brust) speaks of a god and the gods in lower case. Proper names are capitalized, but not god or demon. I'm going to try to stick to that convention. mh> What disturbs me more than the Necromancer's significant power is mh> Sethra's even more significant power. Through Vlad, we are, after mh> all, fraternizing with someone who was *offered Godhood*. Correct. But here's a place where we ought to be cautious. We don't know that Sethra has god-level powers, and we don't know that she doesn't. In fact, we don't even know what god-level powers are. The only statement we have as to what the gods are is what Sethra tells us above - multiple manifestation. Sethra's statement (which I quoted in toto) looks very much like she considers it complete. We get three classes of things here: gods, who can multiple manifest and not be controlled; demons, who can multiple manifest but can be controlled, and everything else. It's not a comforting definition, but going by what's in the text, I think it's right. So it's my opinion that Sethra Lavode would not have become more powerful if she were made a god. It's also my opinion that she is indeed a power in the same class as the gods. I'll say why a bit further down. mh> What disturbs me even more than both of those, though, is that mh> whenever I think of the two of them together, I get the image of mh> two "goth chicks" in black lace and tattered dresses, alternately mh> reciting their latest poetry on the subject of death in a mh> coffeeshot at midnight. *guffaw* Except that laughing at them might be a bit dangerous. I've gotta add, too, that the first time Sethra was described all I could envision was Carolyn Jones as Morticia Addams. Now, of course, I see her as Anjelica Huston -- with Carolyn Jones as The Necromancer. Coming back to gods and power . . . What we see as gods in the Dragaeran stories are nothing like what Western monotheism means by the term. Sethra's definition of a god leaves a lot of room for discussion, but it sounds like full godhood requires some combination of worshipers, presence at a cataclysmic event, great power or the illusion of it, multiple manifestation, and not being subject to the will of another. Perhaps Sethra was offered godhood after Adron's Disaster. If so, the only new things she'd have gotten from it were multiple manifestation and a prominent seat at the First Church of Lavode, Sethra. :-) Power is at least partly a function of skill, and Verra says that The Necromancer is better (more skilled) than she (ISSOLA 221). This says something about relative powers. Looking back, I can't find a a single skill or power that we've seen from the gods which we haven't also seen from at least one other resident of the Dragaeran world (Eastern, Dragaeran, Serioli). If anyone can cite such, it would be useful to know. We know that gods aren't the most powerful beings in the world. At the big battle in ISSOLA, we have ten gods including Verra and Barlen. We have one demon (The Necromancer), one proto-god with Great Weapon (Sethra), and two massively powerful sorcerers with Great Weapons. They go up against four Jenoine. They're on the home turf of the Dragaerans and of at least some of the gods. One Jenoine is killed early on, one remains mostly aloof. The remaining two Jenoine face ten gods and four great powers. They kill Morrolan, overwhelm the Necromancer, and hold everyone else at bay. The battle seems to be going the Jenoines way until the unexpected power of Lady Teldra/Godslayer kills one of them. Even then, the element of surprise is probably as much a factor as the power of Lady Teldra. The Jenoine aren't gods, but clearly outrank them. In the opening of ISSOLA (pg 32) Sethra says "I fear what we are facing is rather more powerful than a god". The actions that follow make it darned clear she's not kidding. Verra tells us that certain Dragaerans are more skilled than they. Vlad tells us (pg 230) that the gods defer to Sethra to manage the battle with the Jenoine, and she puts non-gods in the van. So when we think of the powers of the gods, we need to ramp down our opinions. They're powerful all right, but they're not Gods.