Dragaera

Gods, gods, demons, and monsters (spoilers for Issola)

Steve Simmons scs at di.org
Sat Sep 7 11:59:01 PDT 2002

This is a spin-off from the discussion in the 'Why doesn't anybody *win*?'
thread.  I changed the subject line because one *ought* to change the
subject line when the subject changes.  Call me anal.  Shut up, Loiosh.

Some context --

books at bofh.com writes:

books> Sethra: Yes you do, the Necromancer, although I don't recommend you
books> try to control her, she's liable to take it wrong.

David Dyer-Bennet writes in response:

ddb> Other interesting point there -- she's a god except for this one
ddb> little detail?  Whooo.

Then Matthew Hunter replies to David.  I'm going to quote him and insert
my own comments into the flow.

mh> There's a flaw in this logic: we don't have enough information to
mh> make the logical jump you are looking for.  We know that a God, by
mh> definition, cannot be controlled (except for Verra?); we know that
mh> a Demon can be controlled (including the Jhereg Demon?); we do NOT
mh> know that a Demon which gains immunity from control becomes a God. 
mh> IOW, just because the Necromancer is a Demon doesn't mean she is a
mh> single step away from Godhood.  

Hmmm . . . a careful, cautious interpretation.  But if you back up a few
paragraphs, we find Sethra giving a fuller definition on pg 34-35:

    . . . "Ask, rather, *What* are the gods?  What freaks of
    chance, what hidden talents, what cataclysmic events combined
    to produce those whom your people worship, and mine strive
    to emulate?  Is their power acquired only because there are
    those who worship them?  Is their power, in fact, imaginary?
    There are no simple answers to the question you have asked,
    because everything is tied to everything else."
	I [Vlad] drank klava, and listened.
	"Part of the answer to the question I have posed is this:
    The gods are beings who are able to manifest in at least two
    places at once, and yet who are not subject to the forcible
    control of any other being; this marking the difference between
    a god and a demon."

I'll come back to this in a minute.

On the Jhereg named Demon -- A bit further in the same conversation is
this bit.  Vlad is speaking:

	"I don't think I've ever met a demon," I said.  "Unless
    a certain Jhereg who goes by that name means it more literally
    than I think he does."
	"You have," said Sethra, "The Necromancer."

In her response, I believe Sethra is saying both that the Demon is not
a demon, and that The Necromancer is.

Which brings me to Gods, gods, and capitalization.  Sethra (or rather,
Brust) speaks of a god and the gods in lower case.  Proper names are
capitalized, but not god or demon.  I'm going to try to stick to that
convention.

mh> What disturbs me more than the Necromancer's significant power is
mh> Sethra's even more significant power.  Through Vlad, we are, after
mh> all, fraternizing with someone who was *offered Godhood*.  

Correct.  But here's a place where we ought to be cautious.  We don't
know that Sethra has god-level powers, and we don't know that she doesn't.
In fact, we don't even know what god-level powers are.  The only statement
we have as to what the gods are is what Sethra tells us above - multiple
manifestation.  Sethra's statement (which I quoted in toto) looks very
much like she considers it complete.  We get three classes of things
here: gods, who can multiple manifest and not be controlled; demons,
who can multiple manifest but can be controlled, and everything else.
It's not a comforting definition, but going by what's in the text,
I think it's right.

So it's my opinion that Sethra Lavode would not have become more powerful
if she were made a god.  It's also my opinion that she is indeed a power
in the same class as the gods.  I'll say why a bit further down.

mh> What disturbs me even more than both of those, though, is that
mh> whenever I think of the two of them together, I get the image of
mh> two "goth chicks" in black lace and tattered dresses, alternately
mh> reciting their latest poetry on the subject of death in a
mh> coffeeshot at midnight. 

*guffaw*  Except that laughing at them might be a bit dangerous.
I've gotta add, too, that the first time Sethra was described all I
could envision was Carolyn Jones as Morticia Addams.  Now, of course,
I see her as Anjelica Huston -- with Carolyn Jones as The Necromancer.

Coming back to gods and power . . .

What we see as gods in the Dragaeran stories are nothing like what
Western monotheism means by the term.  Sethra's definition of a god
leaves a lot of room for discussion, but it sounds like full godhood
requires some combination of worshipers, presence at a cataclysmic
event, great power or the illusion of it, multiple manifestation, and
not being subject to the will of another.  Perhaps Sethra was offered
godhood after Adron's Disaster.  If so, the only new things she'd have
gotten from it were multiple manifestation and a prominent seat at the
First Church of Lavode, Sethra.  :-)

Power is at least partly a function of skill, and Verra says that The
Necromancer is better (more skilled) than she (ISSOLA 221).  This says
something about relative powers.  Looking back, I can't find a a single
skill or power that we've seen from the gods which we haven't also
seen from at least one other resident of the Dragaeran world (Eastern,
Dragaeran, Serioli).  If anyone can cite such, it would be useful to know.

We know that gods aren't the most powerful beings in the world.  At the
big battle in ISSOLA, we have ten gods including Verra and Barlen.
We have one demon (The Necromancer), one proto-god with Great Weapon
(Sethra), and two massively powerful sorcerers with Great Weapons.
They go up against four Jenoine.  They're on the home turf of the
Dragaerans and of at least some of the gods.  One Jenoine is killed
early on, one remains mostly aloof.

The remaining two Jenoine face ten gods and four great powers.  They kill
Morrolan, overwhelm the Necromancer, and hold everyone else at bay.  The
battle seems to be going the Jenoines way until the unexpected power of
Lady Teldra/Godslayer kills one of them.  Even then, the element of
surprise is probably as much a factor as the power of Lady Teldra.

The Jenoine aren't gods, but clearly outrank them.  In the opening of
ISSOLA (pg 32) Sethra says "I fear what we are facing is rather more
powerful than a god".  The actions that follow make it darned clear she's
not kidding.  Verra tells us that certain Dragaerans are more skilled
than they.  Vlad tells us (pg 230) that the gods defer to Sethra to
manage the battle with the Jenoine, and she puts non-gods in the van.

So when we think of the powers of the gods, we need to ramp down our
opinions.  They're powerful all right, but they're not Gods.