At 05:02 AM 11/28/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >The existence of a Deity is not provable. The non-existence of a Deity is >not provable. ( Learned that in Philosophy 101...man, was my prof a >sadist) That some choose to believe in a Deity makes them no better or >worse than those who do not. This is at the heart of this whole conversation. In my opinion, it comes down to the notion that "proof" is something that we do in our heads. We construct a proof that passes certain tests of what we call "logic." How do we know this "logic" makes sense? Easy: we "proved" it in our heads, with logic. Feh. Logic is useful servant but a poor master. We, as human beings, "prove* that our ideas are correct (or incorrect) not by sitting around thinking, but by making actual changes in the world around us in accordance with our ideas. When our ideas are wrong, the world let's us know sooner or later. Usually sooner. Can I "prove* that god does not exist outside of the realm of thought? Well, not by thinking about it! Not within the confines of formal logic. But then, I consider formal logic to be a poor system of thought, because reality doesn't work according to those rules. To the extent that we understand nature, to that extent can we *control* nature--can we make a world in accordance with our wishes. This means understanding the laws of the motion of matter, as complex and varied and wonderful as they are. To introduce into our thoughts idea which do not reflect the world as it is, but, in particular require suspending or denying those very laws, hinders our understanding. The above is by no means a *proof* that god does not exist. I hope it is a step toward an explanation of why I reject him and the Pegasus he rode in on. > >A side note about those poor books that everyone seems to be using as an >excuse to do nasty, evil things: Imagine some nutcase reading the Taltos >series and deciding that he is now a follower of the Prophet Vlad, who >speaks for God, a.k.a. Steve. Now if this looney goes out and kills some >people in the name of the Holy Order of Assasination, who is to >blame? The nutcase? Or perhaps Steve is to blame for being God? > > I am not to blame for being god. The position was forced upon me.