Dragaera

The Religion Debate

David Dyer-Bennet dd-b at dd-b.net
Fri Nov 29 11:54:17 PST 2002

"Gametech" <voltronalpha at hotmail.com> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> > For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion,
> > is *false*.  Basing your life on a falsehood is bad.
> >
> 
> Err... Hmm I can't differentiate that statement from someone saying:
> 
> 
> 
> For me the real bottom-line argument is that atheism, or any other religion
> than the one I believe in, is *false*.
> 
> Basing your life on a falsehood is bad.

Thanks for walking into this one.

It's simple.  We can compare evidence between the various religions,
of course.

> I agree and disagree on falsehoods, if believing something false helps you
> do something good or it has a good outcome it's falseness becomes only
> relevant if you care about being right. If you believe something false and
> it hurts you then it is bad. Like: You trip and fall and you try to catch
> yourself on a pole which you believe to be firmly planted and capable of
> supporting you, you are wrong and still fall flat on your face along with
> the pole. Or You trip and fall believing you are going to fall flat on your
> face and someone catches you, you were wrong and didn't expect it yet is
> doesn't matter that your judgment was in error because the only relevance is
> in being right.

This is on such a different scale that it doesn't compare.  Yes, it's
less serious if you have a false belief about that pole, and the worst
outcome is falling on your face.  That's *still* bad, just not too
serious.

And if that pole is part of the foundation system of a building you're
designing, the consequences of being wrong go up considerably.

So I think we've agreed that different things are of different levels
of importance.  (I hope this doesn't surprise anybody!).  It seems to
me that beliefs about the moral structure of the universe are
inherently of the *highest* importance.

> Just to remind the point I don't follow any religion, and haven't found one
> I believe in however every religion I've been subject to has had pieces of
> beliefs I do follow (all are undisputable positive ideals, not anything
> based in I can't prove it land), when you so reverently say religion is bad
> I simply know that's not true because it has vast potential to anyone who
> isn't a moron, just like anything else. I think there is error in your
> thinking that just because most or all religions (I don't know for sure so
> I'm unwilling to fully generalize) have at least one or more falsehoods in
> them that people following them automatically believe. Religion is subject
> to the brain the same way any other idea is we have the right and the
> ability to refuse ideas we find falseness in. And we have the right to
> renounce the religion for the falsehood at any point we distinguish it as
> harming us or existing. I did when it happened to me, born into a religion
> saw inconsistencies, even what I considered proof of the fallacy. But I've
> walked away with every positive piece of the teaching. I'd still follow if
> my ethics system based outside of religion didn't collide with the idea of
> representing something (the religion) by being a follower and not fully
> believing.

The trouble with religion as a source of ethical guidelines is that
it's based on *nothing*.  It all comes down to "Because the great
sky-father said so", or "because it says so in the book" or whatever.
This is of no use whatsoever -- it's indistinguishable from "Because
Stalin said so" or "Because dd-b said so".  Not a good basis for an
ethical system!

> For me the real bottom-line argument is that ideas, any idea is subject to
> being false. It's ok to believe in ideas even if some turn out to be false.
> Saying all religons are false is like to me saying all ideas are false. It
> seems so generalistic.

Religion, by definition, asserts the existence of a non-material
world.  There's no evidence for such a thing being real.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net  /  http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
 John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
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