You're getting much too much mileage from "in" - remember, Sethra's not speaking English into a tape recorder which has been transcribed. Also we have little evidence about the differences between "tribe" and "House". Maybe Sethra and Dolivar were best buds and hung out so much she was unofficially but effectively in the tribe... On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > Steve (In a roundabout way): > > > > ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... > > > > --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). > Me: > > > > It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, that > > > > Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to the > > > > current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, i.e. > > > > Steve). > Phil Hart: > > > I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that doesn't make > > > her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, maybe > > > whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. > David Dyer-Bennet: > > She does say "...important in the tribe". That's not quite IMHO a > > claim that she's a dragon, but it's closer than "important to", > > anyway. > > While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it as an exercise for the reader. > > I also concur with David's homing in on the critical word usage: 'in', and not 'to'. Sethra, so far as I can tell, does not use her words imprecisely; she is also speaking from a position of personal experience, and a significant experience as well -- how she was associated with the Tribes. I do disagree with David's suggestion that saying 'in the tribe' does not mean she was a dragon; considering the tribes at that time, you were either a member because you had that blood and lived up to it, or you were an outcast and Dolivar was going to collect you some time soon for a good talking-to about an idea he has. > > Again, I don't have 'Jhereg' handy, and I don't recall precisely where else they discuss the tribes and the origins of the Empire, but I think that though subtle, the above is pretty definitive as to how Sethra was considered at the Empire's start... > > > Thomas Crain > >