Please don't say that it all depends on what the meaning of "in" is? On Oct 29, 2003, at 8:54 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > You're getting much too much mileage from "in" - remember, Sethra's not > speaking English into a tape recorder which has been transcribed. > Also we > have little evidence about the differences between "tribe" and "House". > Maybe Sethra and Dolivar were best buds and hung out so much she was > unofficially but effectively in the tribe... > > > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > >> Steve (In a roundabout way): >>>>> ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... >>>>> --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). >> Me: >>>>> It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, >>>>> that >>>>> Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to >>>>> the >>>>> current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, >>>>> i.e. >>>>> Steve). >> Phil Hart: >>>> I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that >>>> doesn't make >>>> her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, >>>> maybe >>>> whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. >> David Dyer-Bennet: >>> She does say "...important in the tribe". That's not quite IMHO a >>> claim that she's a dragon, but it's closer than "important to", >>> anyway. >> >> While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be >> significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe >> that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it >> as an exercise for the reader. >> >> I also concur with David's homing in on the critical word usage: >> 'in', and not 'to'. Sethra, so far as I can tell, does not use her >> words imprecisely; she is also speaking from a position of personal >> experience, and a significant experience as well -- how she was >> associated with the Tribes. I do disagree with David's suggestion >> that saying 'in the tribe' does not mean she was a dragon; >> considering the tribes at that time, you were either a member because >> you had that blood and lived up to it, or you were an outcast and >> Dolivar was going to collect you some time soon for a good talking-to >> about an idea he has. >> >> Again, I don't have 'Jhereg' handy, and I don't recall precisely >> where else they discuss the tribes and the origins of the Empire, but >> I think that though subtle, the above is pretty definitive as to how >> Sethra was considered at the Empire's start... >> >> >> Thomas Crain >> >> >