When you say that both the Magdalenes and the Quakers thought that they were doing God's will, and that only the Quakers were right...what gives YOU the inside path to truth? Maybe, in fact it was the Magdalenes who were following the true desires of their God. Ken On Dec 5, 2003, at 2:07 AM, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 12/4/2003 11:28:00 PM US Mountain Standard >>>>>>>>>> Time, > umbraenoctis at hotmail.com writes: > Err, I must beg to differ about the following point. Sex is not sinful, > merely powerful and therefore to be respected. (1st commandment was to > be > fruitful and multiply- ergo lots of sex [and pregnancies]) It was set > within > limits for the protection of the parties involved. > > *the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and* > Much of that viewpoint came from "st. Augustine" of the Roman church, > indulging in mysogyny after "conversion". He was WRONG! (P.S. The > original > sin was disobedience.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I don't disagree at all with these and your following comments; I > think > you are expressing the *real* teachings of Christianity. But, remember > Braude's Corollary: Just as the best actions were done out of > Christian motives, so > were the worst. Do you know Charles Williams's definition of the > Unforgivable > Sin, the Sin against the Holy Ghost? It is "to know the good as > evil." In > other words, to perceive the right thing to do as the wrong thing to > do. If > Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, had heard a still, small voice > telling him God > did not want him to burn people alive because they held views on the > nature > of the Trinity slightly different from his, he would have replied, > "Get thee > behind me, Satan!" It is the unforgivable sin not because God's mercy > is > limited, but even God can't forgive a sin that isn't repented of > because the sinner > is proud of it. > > Someone who recognized Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor known as the > Angel of > Death for his experiments on concentration camp victims, when he was > hiding out > in South America, and asked him if he had any regrets about what he'd > done. > His reply: he regretted that the Nazis had failed to exterminate the > entire > Jewish population of Europe. > > If Christianity is the dominant belief system, you will try to convince > yourself that what you want to do--providing food and shelter for the > homeless, > slave trading, caring for lepers, burning heretics--is Christian. > Another > Biblical quote: "Not everyone who sayeth unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall > enter into the > kingdom of Heaven." > > A couple of instances: During the Great Hunger, the Irish potato > famine, the > only people who actively and continuously tried to feed the hungry > throughout > were the Quakers; the absentee landlords of Ireland exported the food > produced on their estates rather than sharing with the peasants. > > And one of the great scandals, only recently publicized, of Ireland in > the > last century is the Magdalene laundries, where "immoral" girls, > sometimes guilty > of no more than flirting, or being rape victims, were confined doing > virtually slave labor, sometimes for the rest of their lives. They > were run by the > Magdalene Sisters. > > I'm sure both the Magdalenes and the Quakers were convinced that they > were > doing God's will. I think we'd agree that only the Quakers were right. > > I'm sure that you and I would agree that the wicked things done in the > name > of Christianity, from burning witches to assassinating doctors who > perform > abortions, were perversions of Christianity. But those who do them > would say the > same about our views. My point was that a lot of regrettable political > actions have claimed to be based on Christianity; I did not mention > that most of the > reforms have too, because (1) I took that as a given (Wilberforce, > William > Booth, Dorothy Dix, etc.); and (2) that wasn't actually the topic. > > Oh, BTW, the disgust at sex in Augustine comes from his Manichaean > days. > Like Neoplatonism, Manichaeanism (and its descendant Catharism, aka the > Albigensian heresy) believed in a radical dissociation between flesh > and spirit, with > all the material world being negative. The perfect act of Cathar > worship was > to starve oneself to death. Kinda hard to believe they invented > courtly love, > isn't it? > > talpianna