>>>>>>>>>In a message dated 12/4/2003 11:28:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, umbraenoctis at hotmail.com writes: Err, I must beg to differ about the following point. Sex is not sinful, merely powerful and therefore to be respected. (1st commandment was to be fruitful and multiply- ergo lots of sex [and pregnancies]) It was set within limits for the protection of the parties involved. *the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and* Much of that viewpoint came from "st. Augustine" of the Roman church, indulging in mysogyny after "conversion". He was WRONG! (P.S. The original sin was disobedience.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't disagree at all with these and your following comments; I think you are expressing the *real* teachings of Christianity. But, remember Braude's Corollary: Just as the best actions were done out of Christian motives, so were the worst. Do you know Charles Williams's definition of the Unforgivable Sin, the Sin against the Holy Ghost? It is "to know the good as evil." In other words, to perceive the right thing to do as the wrong thing to do. If Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, had heard a still, small voice telling him God did not want him to burn people alive because they held views on the nature of the Trinity slightly different from his, he would have replied, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" It is the unforgivable sin not because God's mercy is limited, but even God can't forgive a sin that isn't repented of because the sinner is proud of it. Someone who recognized Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor known as the Angel of Death for his experiments on concentration camp victims, when he was hiding out in South America, and asked him if he had any regrets about what he'd done. His reply: he regretted that the Nazis had failed to exterminate the entire Jewish population of Europe. If Christianity is the dominant belief system, you will try to convince yourself that what you want to do--providing food and shelter for the homeless, slave trading, caring for lepers, burning heretics--is Christian. Another Biblical quote: "Not everyone who sayeth unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven." A couple of instances: During the Great Hunger, the Irish potato famine, the only people who actively and continuously tried to feed the hungry throughout were the Quakers; the absentee landlords of Ireland exported the food produced on their estates rather than sharing with the peasants. And one of the great scandals, only recently publicized, of Ireland in the last century is the Magdalene laundries, where "immoral" girls, sometimes guilty of no more than flirting, or being rape victims, were confined doing virtually slave labor, sometimes for the rest of their lives. They were run by the Magdalene Sisters. I'm sure both the Magdalenes and the Quakers were convinced that they were doing God's will. I think we'd agree that only the Quakers were right. I'm sure that you and I would agree that the wicked things done in the name of Christianity, from burning witches to assassinating doctors who perform abortions, were perversions of Christianity. But those who do them would say the same about our views. My point was that a lot of regrettable political actions have claimed to be based on Christianity; I did not mention that most of the reforms have too, because (1) I took that as a given (Wilberforce, William Booth, Dorothy Dix, etc.); and (2) that wasn't actually the topic. Oh, BTW, the disgust at sex in Augustine comes from his Manichaean days. Like Neoplatonism, Manichaeanism (and its descendant Catharism, aka the Albigensian heresy) believed in a radical dissociation between flesh and spirit, with all the material world being negative. The perfect act of Cathar worship was to starve oneself to death. Kinda hard to believe they invented courtly love, isn't it? talpianna