Dragaera

Kelly's Movement

David Silberstein davids at kithrup.com
Mon Jan 19 15:12:54 PST 2004

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Jeffrey Kiok wrote:

>> True, but they tended to come into conflict with each other.  And they
>> had some very real problems when they came into conflict with a
>> society with higher technology (and with more diseases).
>
>
>I'd be careful there.  Yes, they came into conflict with each other.  
>It was not their socio-economic structure that destroyed the Native 
>Americans when they came into conflict with the Europeans, it was the 
>fact that they didn't have immunity to the diseases the Europeans 
>brought with them.

Yup, yup.  I've read /Lies my Teacher Told Me/ and /Guns, Germs and
Steel/, so I know that diseases were very important, probably primary
in decimating the native populations.  The thing is, the technology
was also important - and there the socio-economic structure was more
of a problem; a society needs a higher and more sedentary population
in order to compete with higher tech.  The farming tribes might have
been able to learn blacksmithing and other tool usage, but the nomadic
hunter-gatherers would have had more problems. 

>  In fact, one should note that in Colonial times, men like William
>Bradford attributed the colonies success not to guns, warfare, or a
>superior society, but rather to the fact that great diseases wiped
>out the Native Americans, literally leaving cleared land perfect for
>crops (which the Native Americans had been farming) for the
>colonists. 

Yup.  /Lies my Teacher Told Me/ describes how the famous Squanto came
>from just such a disease-destroyed village.

>  Also, it should noted that in Massachusetts, it actually became
>illegal to leave the town, because so many colonists fled the towns
>and went to live in these Native Americans communes, never to return. 
>There are numerous accounts where after colonists recaptured former
>colonists now living with the Native Americans, that the former
>colonists did not want to return. 

Yes, I remember that as well.  There was a certain amount of
speculation that some of the notions of individual sovreignity among
the early colonists arose because of exposure to the democratic nature
of many of the tribes.

>But I suppose this is a bit of a tangent.

   Never go off on tangents, which are lines that intersect a curve at
   only 1 point and were discovered by Euclid, who lived in the 6th
   Century, which was an era dominated by the Goths, who lived in what
   we now know as Poland...

OTOH:

   If you never go off on tangents, you keep going around in circles.