I realize it's a bit late to be throwing in my 2 cents, but I just recently joined the group, and I'm getting caught up on old entries. First of all, neither Kelly or Vlad is immoral, as I understand the word. To be immoral would require that you delibrately act against someone else's sense of morality (and I think it implies a bit of malice). Kelly is moral in general, and amoral in specific. People entrust their wellbeing to Kelly, he does everything he can to improve their lives as a whole, regardless of the impact it has on them individually. Vlad is moral in specific and amoral in general. People entrust their wellbeing to Vlad, he does everything he can to keep each one of them safe and well, regardless of the overall affect this might have. I admire Vlad's morality more. I don't believe we can really ever know anything in any absolute sense of the word (*), but experience feels closer to knowledge than theory (not that I'm saying that senses are any more infallible than thought, but senses seem to be more directly in touch with reality than thought... nevermind, this argument goes on forever). Vlad's morality is applied to each individual based on his judgement of them, which is based on his experience of them, and changes as he learns more about them. In other words, his prejudices never apply to individuals (except when he doesn't know them). Dragaerans are "bad", but he is intensely loyal to individual Dragaerans ("Jhereg" is a tour de force of applied loyalty, as Vlad does everything he can NOT to betray his friends, most obviously Morrolan, even though it makes his goal that much harder to achieve... I think that Kelly would betray Paresh or Cawti in a second if he thought it would achieve his goal). Kelly's morality is based on a generality. He presumes to know the situation, feelings, hopes, and dreams of thousands of people, without ever bothering to get to know them individually. He can't look at them individually; it's an inherent problem with idealism. An ideal is a "best solution". And no one solution can solve every problem, so you're forced to view the world as a single problem (btw, yes, I am a recovering (but not cynical... I don't think) idealist). Perhaps that last statement is a bit harsh, but nowhere do we see Kelly offering more than his one "ideal" solution, and he only acknowledges one problem: Easterners and Teckla are good but oppressed, everyone else is bad and oppressive. No exceptions mentioned. The only solution is to get the Easterners and Teckla on equal footing with the rest of the Empire. Even though this clearly implies that those "at the top" will have to suffer a lowering of lifestyle, but again, it's not what happens to the individuals that counts... Anyway, I guess that's more like 3 or 4 cents worth. :) Bryan (*) see http://bryann.net/cgi-bin/main?content=moosism.web for a brief explanation of why I believe this.