On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Sean Whalen wrote: > --- Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 23 Mar 2004, Sean Whalen wrote: > > > > > > > > Huh? Nothing was discovered. Tortaalik was suspicious when he > > > saw Allistar and Noima together (because of Garland's manipulations > > > to remove others with influence) but had no proof. > > If T wasn't an idiot this would have been discovery. > > Plus whatever Wellborn had going on (perhaps a dalliance himself) > > that led him to placify [coinage] T on this matter. > Discover what? Noima hadn't done a single thing to make Allistar > think his gifts or charms had any effect on her. The complete failure > of their plans is why Illista decided to make use of Khaavren to give > Noima something they knew she wanted (Kathana's safety). At this point > Allistar is just continuing to try to stay near her at every opportunity > waiting for a chance to get noticed. Discover that Allistar was trying to gain influence with Noima. And I think you underestimate the possible significance of N's accepting gifts in private audiences as well. > If Paarfi is concealing or changing information to make it seem > Noima's actual affairs never took place, why does he have the > conversation with Wellborn included? He could just leave it out since > talks between Emperor and Discrete seem unlikely to be spread around. The conversation shows this is a significant issue - that courtiers are courting N, that she is considering those attentions. Paarfi doesn't dismiss the question of N's fidelity (as best I recall) - he has an opinion - but it hardly matters. Clearly Wellborn is influencing T not to become concerned about the swirl of intrigue centered on N - advice which _TPG_ and _FHYA_ seem almost designed to show is extremely foolish. > > > Jurabin got his power from being Prime Minister. I don't think any > > > of these people actually had affairs with Noima or tried to do so to > > > gain personal power. > > > Jurabin held the reins of power because T chose not to. > > I know Tortaalik could have exerted more influence if he had chosen. > I'm saying that Jurabin had power because of his position, not just from > being some random noble in love with Noima. He might be in that position because N was able to manipulate him. He might be able to use that position because his actions accord with N's wishes. N/J may in the eyes of the court be a mutually supporting couple, their strengths merged. A physical intimacy would only serve to reinforce the dyad. > > Note from pg 36 of _FHYA_ (and somewhere in _TPG_) that Noima exerts a > > great deal of influence at court - Pel and Khaavren say she controlled > > it. > > Illista and Allistar begin their plan before Tortaalik even ends his > celebration. How would they know how much power Noima would have or > keep for any time? I think the risk of maintaining an affair is too > great. Removing Tortaalik would be a logical next step and they had the > perfect time at the beginning of his reign. The new court doesn't arise full-grown from ashes. A/I know T/N very well. We see complex webs on intrigue well underway, affairs of which T seems uninformed, and he is happy in his ignorance. I hardly think that the situation is clear enough to undertake so delicate an operation as a coup, and I see no evidence that such an action could succeed.