On Sun, 16 May 2004, Philip Hart wrote: @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > doo dee doo @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> > @> @> > @> He shows Aerich's composure break when Tazendra is killed. We could @> > @> hardly ask for more. @> > @> > Of course we could. That could just as easily be interpreted as him being @> > angry because a friend was killed. (Although, of course, I doubt either of @> > us have taken this interpretation.) The very fact that this is the most @> > extreme reference Paarfi feels comfortable making to the matter tells us @> > all we really need to know. @> @> In my view, SKZB wanted to write a novel of broad strokes and delicate @> brushwork and hopes the reader will be attentive and flexible enough to @> interpret and appreciate both. Uh-huh. But we're talking about Paarfi here, not Brust. Weren't you the one arguing that we ought to keep things entirely within the fictional context? In any event, Brust is clever enough to imply things through his own creation's implications. @> > What he says is this: @> > @> > "He keeps trying to refer to himself as a historian, which is okay, but it @> > seems to me that he is making up more than he is willing to let on, his @> > protests in the Preface notwithstanding... @> > Think of Paarfi, then, as a bit like Arthur Conan Doyle. He's isn't making @> > his living doing what he wants to do, but rather doing what he's good at: @> > telling stories." @> @> You managed to elide the introduction to this point, where SKZB says, "It @> seems to me..." and goes on to say Paarfi is a good historian. Also note @> that _TEoDM_ is rather different from _TPG_ (which might work either way). Sure. And I actually have no doubt he's a good (albeit fictional) historian, although I may have presented a confused interpretation of this by humorously using the word liar. See, as Brust says in the introduction and in the referenced newsgroup posts, Paarfi is writing fiction, not history. Of course he's lying; he doesn't and shouldn't feel any obligation to be entirely accurate in that context. @> > Frankly, that seems pretty clear-cut to me. But let's have a few @> > supplementary refs, shall we? Gentlemen... behold! @> > @> > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=paarfi+author:steven+author:brust&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=RXM22.1998%24i63.6905077%40ptah.visi.com&rnum=3&filter=0 @> @> Again, I tend to discount or ignore what SKZB says about his fiction. @> After all, he may be, like Vlad, "lying, and forgetful, doesn't @> know as much as he thinks he does." He might change his mind about something in the future, sure, but I doubt he's just going to out-and-out lie to us. And, of course, we must always work with the information we have at the moment. @> > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=paarfi+author:steven+author:brust&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=ENV22.2039%24i63.7175442%40ptah.visi.com&rnum=1&filter=0 @> @> Here I see SKZB defending his improbable view that the Dragon-Jhereg war @> as described by Vlad makes any sort of sense. I haven't seen any kind of definitive proof that it doesn't. Or even anything suggestive, now that the beheading thing is officially out. And I note you cut out the specific instance of him being inaccurate re: photic sneezing. Although, of course, I may have undue affection for that one, being a photic sneezer myself (and having also had the experience of suddenly finding out that everyone else wasn't). @> > I believe this has been adequately responded to by KG. @> @> You're referring to the egregious error. Well, fine, I'll wait for the @> Vlad boxed set where Paresh's egregious error is removed. Tsk. @> > @> Who knows. People may well make allowances for Vlad's short lifespan; @> > @> they are an unusual crowd anyway - Morrolan in particular ought naturally @> > @> to speak like an Easterner. @> > @> > And this. @> @> Rather to the advantage of my side of the argument I think, given that @> Paarfi frankly addresses the issue (I assume this is intended as a @> parallel to Thucydides's intro). Paarfi doesn't; the person introducing him does. Paarfi never admits to any kind of dishonesty, despite the fact that some is obviously occurring. @> > Paresh spent a good deal of time reading books meant for novices, and @> > could have understood her notes on that basis. Plus, he's capable of @> > experimentation if there are pieces missing, so it's entirely possible @> > that he figured out teleportation on his own (as many sorcerers during @> > this period seem to have). @> @> You're assuming there were books for novices in Tazendra's keep. Why shouldn't I assume that? I have one account that suggests there are and one that is neutral on the issue. It's not unreasonable to believe that she got, say, the complete works of Sargon the Sorceror, which included a volume called "Sargon's Sorcery Supplement: Six Spells for Initiates with Illuminated Illustrations". @> My guess is that after hundreds of years of Interregnum, basic sorcery @> texts would be for the most part dust (explaining in part Morrolan's @> difficulty in gathering them.) Could be, unless they were part the library of someone who knew pre-empire sorcery, and had some small desire to preserve them. And it just so happens... @> And experimenting with teleportation is not recommended. I know of no @> evidence that "many sorcerers during this period" "figured out @> teleportation on [their] own." I'll have to go back and check on that one, actually. Although there's a logical path there: do you actually imagine that Sethra, or a dead Tazendra, is going around teaching people how to do it? @> Consider yourself not knowing any calculus and walking into a disorganized @> string theorist's office, picking up his notes, and teaching yourself @> Maxwell's laws by reverse engineering and then the latest models... Paresh explicitly notes that he knows some spells even as a Teckla (presumably of the 'I hope my crops don't get et by bugs' variety). So it'd be more like someone going into a mathematician's library with a basic knowledge of algebra and, after a year of doing nothing but studying the texts there, coming across two of Newton's laws of motion and figuring out the third one himself. @> > @> Certainly she would likely have been more interested in offensive @> > @> spells. Recall that she learned to teleport at the nucleus of @> > @> Castle Black. @> > @> > Yes, and because of her personality, I strongly suspect that she would @> > immediately begin to experiment with that capability and record the @> > results. @> @> Certainly she would likely have been more interested in offensive spells. I'm more interested in cheese than meat. I still have recipes that involve both. @> > But that a Teckla had information? Of course not. The fact is, a person @> > has appeared in the place where his lov^H^H^Hfriend has apparently been @> > kidnapped by violence and is acting extremely strangely. It would be @> > unbelievably stupid not to find out what this person knows about the @> > matter, and Aerich is not stupid. @> @> I was going to grant you a bit of reason on this point, but on @> reconsideration I don't. Aerich meets an insane Teckla (who he knows @> likely isn't a retainer of T) who in fact knows nothing. If Grita et al @> wanted to leave him a message, they wouldn't have given it to Paresh. Let us assume that Aerich has an encylopedic knowledge of all of Tazendra's servants. So, there's a teckla where he shouldn't be /and/ everything has gone to hell. A probable conclusion is that this person is connected with the bandits/enemy army/6.5 gods that came in after Tazendra, and that's certainly a conclusion that Aerich ought to investigate if he has any sense. And let us assume that Aerich doesn't have such knowledge. Then the above possibility exists, /and/ we have the additional possibility that he's one of Tazendra's servants and might have seen something, making it even more sensible to talk to him. (And this scenario is, honestly, far more likely. Aerich remembering the faces of countless Teckla? Ridiculous.) @> As it happens, A learns everything possible to learn without P. Sure, but he has no way of knowing that. Actually, he might have gotten more specific information about when the attack happened and what was destroyed, although that probably wouldn't have been helpful. @> According to your scenario, A would have pursued P, unless you go to a lot @> of effort to fine-tune the parameters. Can he trace a teleport? Can he teleport himself? @> And even so, Sorcerer A could have psionically called for backup to @> round up Important Intel Source P. Remember, my new theory calls for Aerich to be using devices, not direct sorcery. So he can't do that. And even assuming he can... well, perhaps he did. But Paresh was already gone by the time anyone else could get there. @> > I'm so allergic to being told I'm wrong that I got off my fat ass long @> > enough to ask my wife to find our copy of Teckla. I have the following @> > (page numbers from Ace paperback): @> > @> > "This could be a real bloodbath. Of course, Paresh was a sorceror and so @> > was Cawti, but I didn't like the odds." -p. 116 @> @> Note Cawti is, I think, barely a sorcerer - ditto for Vlad. At least @> during much of the Vladiad that's the case - perhaps by _Teckla_ I'm @> wrong. Even in the course of _T_ V can't manage simple cooling/heating @> spells for his coffee (though elsewhere he does chill some wine). It's possible that Vlad is barely a sorcerer, although we don't really know for sure. Significantly, he's still capable of teleporting himself, so either that's particularly easy (post-interregnum), is sufficiently disconnectable from basic sorcery skills that he managed to learn it specifically, or he's better than "barely a sorcerer". Cawti is apparently not as good a sorcerer as he is, which is fine. I have no problems with assuming that Paresh is at roughly their level of skill, which should certainly be enough to teleport himself. @> > @> The point is, that he has to go eventually anyway. @> > @> > Sure, but he doesn't have to leave at that particular time unless there's @> > a strong motivating force (like being in a fight which he knows he will @> > lose). @> @> That fight's coming. And we don't actually know when he left. Sure, but I got the impression than Aerich was there for a few days. Certainly enough time to get the most important volumes out of the library, pack up some food, etc. @> > You mean, Tazendra is wandering the villages in her fiefdom, telling @> > stories about her adventures to random farmers? Observe my hollow @> > laughing. I could see some gossip and vague rumors circulating, but @> > there's no reason to suspect that he knows any of the names of the @> > participants. @> @> She drinks in taverns and boasts to travelling nobles and the waitstaff @> hears her. And do you think Mica fails to mention his master's @> accomplishments and associates to all and sundry? And do you think @> there's no intercourse between the Teckla of the nearby estates? In order: probably, of course not, and not that much. I expect that things that the Teckla talk about are going to be more on the order of what cousin Ed did last Marketday, and how much a roast kethna is going for. Why would they care about anything beyond the fact that she's had some adventures somewhere and is a great and powerful warlord? It's not real. @> > And now that I've re-read Paresh's account, I don't see anything in @> > there that proves that he doesn't know Aerich's name. He just doesn't @> > refer to him by it. And he wouldn't care who he was, anyway; it's not @> > material to his story. @> @> I still don't understand how you explain Paresh's Young Duke of Arylle. There are several possibilities: 1) Paresh was freaked out and not seeing things clearly. 2) It was someone else and Paarfi mistakenly connected it with Aerich when he heard the story third-hand from some guy in a bar. 3) Paresh legitimately mistook Aerich's age somehow (not familiar with Lyorn physiology?). As I pointed out earlier, Paresh wouldn't have lied about this for his own gain anyway; there's no motivation there. If he'd claimed that Aerich was older, bigger, and stronger than he (Paresh) was, it would play into your theory about making himself look tough, but claiming that he was basically a child... @> I think if he had known who Aerich was, his account to Vlad would be @> slightly different. In what way? @> However, it's much too much to ask for V to relate the conversation in @> sufficient accuracy and detail. He claims we're getting it verbatim. Heh. @> > Another significant point arises here. The other people in the movement @> > believe he's a sorcerer - they use him as a guard and bodyguard @> > constantly. Given how they met, as described here, they would have to know @> > whether he was a sorcerer or not. @> @> Good point. Doesn't prove he's not a hedge-wizard, but certainly better @> than zip. On the other hand, he's pretty lousy with the protection @> spells. I've been wondering why Vlad is able to waltz into Kelly's @> without an alarm going off. And P was pretty useless come crunch time, @> though of course it's probably rather startling to see V appear and kill @> a bunch of guys in a few instants. I never said that Paresh was all that good. In fact, he's pretty clear about not being all that good; he knows that the Duke is going to kick his ass eventually, whereas he can barely annoy him with his sorcery, which is why he runs. He's just good enough to teleport, which according to Vlad isn't all /that/ good. @> > @> This minor mob boss is the husband of the assassin who's joined @> > @> the group. You'd think he'd cut Vlad some slack. @> > @> > The assassin who renounced assassination and her own role in the Jhereg. @> > What Paresh was doing was giving Vlad a chance to do something similar, @> > but he didn't. It was after that that Paresh began to be rude to him. @> @> I think Vlad says something that places Cawti doing work in the recent @> past. And I (somewhat vaguely) think she's still in Jhereg colors. I should have said "in the Organization". We know that there are Jhereg who aren't members of it, because of Vlad's father. I imagine her renunciation as being gradual (although sharply accelerated when Franz died); I'm not saying that Paresh wanted Vlad to suddenly stand up and throw away his hidden weapons and swear never to kill again. I think they would have given Vlad all the slack he needed if he had said "hey, I believe in your goals, I'm trying to be a better person, and I want to help you distribute pamphlets", which is apparently what Cawti did. But he doesn't believe in their goals, he isn't trying to be a better person (until later), and he certainly isn't interested in pamphlets. @> > @> for me, Kelly is leading his group into destruction because he refuses @> > @> to acknowledge the fact of the Cycle, @> > @> > Facts that are constructs rather than natural laws can be altered. The @> > Cycle is not a natural law; it's a result of the actions of the gods. @> @> I don't think so - the Cycle is above the gods as far as I can tell. @> Certainly it is more powerful than they, if it does what it seems to. That does not contradict the idea that it's a result of their actions. A nuclear bomb is stronger than you and everybody you know. @> > So, it can be altered or destroyed. Does that mean that Kelly and his @> > group can alter or destroy it? Nobody knows. He's the sort of person @> > who's willing to try, though, even if it's not certain. @> @> I think (Cycle or no) he's incredibly wrong about the ability and @> willingness of for example StY to kill as many Easterners and Teckla @> as need be to crush his movement. Quite why this doesn't happen in @> _T_ or _Phoenix_ is actually a bit puzzling to me - I suspect it's @> because in many ways Dragaerans live at a slower tempo than humans, @> so didn't get around to it, or for metareasons I don't care to delve into. The fact is, you can't kill all the Easterners and Teckla, because the empire relies on them to survive. Further, killing large numbers of people doesn't always cause the others to be surpressed by fear; even a mouse backed into a corner will fight. He's banking on these two facts; if his life or even his death can motivate a significant fraction of the Teckla to rebel, they can take the Empire. They're more numerous and they control the production. The only questions are whether he actually can supply that motivation and whether such a method is moral. Zerika is aware of all this, which is why she doesn't play into their hands by declaring war on them; that would just shore up their support. Plus she knows that virtually everything they say about the conditions under which Easterners and Teckla live is correct, and she has her own personal reasons... @> > Sure. But when someone's lifetime may be a millenium, a book written @> > during it might still be reasonably referred to as historical. In fact, a @> > book written about events that happened fifty years ago would be @> > considered historical today, even though many of the participants might @> > still be alive. @> @> Loosely calculated, it's 3k/100 or 30/1, so Paarfi's writing about events @> 10 years in the past. Well, several problems here. It's a factor of 25 (500:20), so we're looking at at least 20 lifespan-years in the past (or substantially more, depending on how long Zerika's reign was - we don't know when she stepped down). Further, as I mention above, the fact is that something that happened five hundred years in the past might still be considered historical, even for a long-lived species. There are still five hundred years worth of events that have occured since then; you can't expect to simply scale everything up. @> > If Dragaeran society as a whole threw off the concept of the Cycle, it @> > would stop working. It's powered by the ambition of its participants. @> @> That's possible, but the Cycle does exist and everyone who's likely to @> know about it seems to disagree with you. Frankly, I can't imagine such @> a complex system working for 200k years on the basis of superstition. I said ambition, not superstition. Ambition is harder to get around. What do you imagine would happen if, when the time came for a Teckla republic, the Teckla refused to take the orb? Or if an entire house were destroyed? (With the exception of the Phoenix; that will probably be a special case, since the nature of the Phoenix is to die and be reborn.) @> > @> (well, except that as a physicist I think "free will" is bunk.) @> > @> > Tsk. Even Leibniz' version? @> @> I think he's full of crap. He thinks God predetermined everything, @> including all our actions, from the beginning (so far so good) but then he @> pretends he doesn't think that (to avoid the obvious consequences, far as @> I can tell). His basic argument is, We have free will because things @> could have gone differently, even if they didn't (except of course they @> couldn't.) I spit in the general direction of his grave. I wasn't suggesting that he was right, simply that his idea of free will as a difference between the logically possible and the physically possible is frequently attractive to physicists. (At least, the ones I know.) And certainly any physicist should be at least somewhat respectful of one of the inventors of calculus, whatever other bizzare ideas he may have had. @> > @> Clari doesn't quiver, or Lar. @> > @> > Clari's already serving a noble master. And Lar was pretty close to it @> > when he applied. (I'm not saying 'quivering in fear', I'm saying @> > 'quivering with desire to serve'.) @> @> I think many readers of this list would gladly serve Khaavren or @> Aerich or Tazendra if they woke up Teckla tomorrow. Consider Savn's @> description of peasant life in the next village... In other words, a lot of people would trade eating better for a virtual certainty of death? Eh... @> > @> Neither of them are obsequious; and they are portrayed as clever, @> > @> worldly, and (in Clari's case) generally attractive. @> > @> > They occasionally rise to the level of 'cheeky', if that's what you mean. @> @> AFB, but I think I'm right on these points. Consider Lar's first @> interview with Piro, or any of Clari's acts. Cheeky. Never gets further than that. @> Consider how many nobles are killed by the Teckla. In the service of other nobles (cf. Teckla conscripts). @> > "You can eat four times a day. You know, the scraps from our meals. And @> > you can sleep on the floor outside of my room." @> @> He's offered something like his fill four times a day vs one meal every @> other day, pleasant duties vs cleaning up after drunken revelers, life in @> a house (and eventually a castle) vs homelessness, clothes vs rags. Plus @> note that he makes enough money to take Srahi to dinner in some style. @> Plus we see him in _TEoDM_ shooting the breeze and drinking the stuff in @> the back of the cellar. And, since you like Dumas analogies, consider @> that the musketeers' lackeys do very well. I'm not saying he ultimately doesn't profit out of the deal, but that's because Tazendra happens to come into some land, later. What he was actually expecting (and would have otherwise gotten), was table scraps and the ability to sleep on the floor inside. It's understandable that he might have considered this preferable to his previous condition, but to be so unbelievably thrilled about it that he's practically wetting his pants? To repeatedly declare that he's willing to be cut into pieces for it?