On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >> The Marquise de Merteuil and the Vicomte de Valmont are both > >> serious Yendis trying to out-Yendi each other. > > > >I'd think their plans are much too straightforward for Yendis. > >They're rather more like Athyras (or I should say athyras) in a world > >where sex is magic, or Dzurs in a society where sex is violence. > > Thinking about it, sex isn't even the point for them; they've > become jaded with anything so straightforward as pleasure for its > own sake. It's the manipulation & cruelty; the power trip they > get from manipulating their *chosen* targets of seduction, > rather than seduction in itself. Or so it seemed to me. > > Anyway, they're Yendis all the way down. They're too open in my view. If I remember correctly, Valmont is a known predator who has to find a naive sheltered Christian to practice a manipulation (twice, actually). And both he and Merteuil let their emotions mess with their planning. I agree re sex - they're like Athyras and knowledge - they're pursuing an end (winning a game in this case) or perhaps trying to achieve a kind of glory by taking on impossible challenges (which is why I think Valmont is Dzur-like). The Dzur aren't violent like Orca - they want to beat the odds, and attempting to seduce a truly devout woman might be the local equivalent of charging up Dzur Mountain. On the topic of "irony", I just came across one of my favorite authors, Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa (Duke of Palma and Prince of Lampedusa), using the word in the Sethran sense, so I'm willing to retract my former objection.