On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Philip Hart wrote: >On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: >> > >> >> The Marquise de Merteuil and the Vicomte de Valmont are both >> >> serious Yendis trying to out-Yendi each other. >> > >> >I'd think their plans are much too straightforward for Yendis. >> >They're rather more like Athyras (or I should say athyras) in a world >> >where sex is magic, or Dzurs in a society where sex is violence. >> >> Thinking about it, sex isn't even the point for them; they've >> become jaded with anything so straightforward as pleasure for its >> own sake. It's the manipulation & cruelty; the power trip they >> get from manipulating their *chosen* targets of seduction, >> rather than seduction in itself. Or so it seemed to me. >> >> Anyway, they're Yendis all the way down. > > >They're too open in my view. If I remember correctly, Valmont is >a known predator who has to find a naive sheltered Christian to >practice a manipulation (twice, actually). Well, after many years of being manipulative and deceitful, of course he'll get a reputation for being that way. You seem to be suggesting that if he were truly on top of things, *no one* would ever know. Well, if Yendi were that way, they wouldn't have the reputation of being manipulative and deceitful, they would have the reputation of being strangely competent in all situations. They're not, though, so they don't. There are limits to everything, even a Yendi's ability to plan. > And both he and Merteuil let their emotions mess with their >planning. Often Yendi are cool under fire, but we've also seen them become rather warm in certain circumstances. I don't think we can assume they are so in control of their emotions that they never cause problems. >I agree re sex - they're like Athyras and knowledge - they're >pursuing an end (winning a game in this case) or perhaps trying to >achieve a kind of glory by taking on impossible challenges (which >is why I think Valmont is Dzur-like). No, no. Athyra are too uninterested in people to be good at manipulation; Dzur too open to be deceitful.. > The Dzur aren't violent like Orca - Eh? Both Dzur and Orca can be violent; it's just towards different ends. Orca want profit, Dzur want fame. One way to achieve fame is to fight a lot of people, preferably (for the Dzur, since it's more likely to bring fame) all at the same time. >and attempting to seduce a truly devout woman might be the local >equivalent of charging up Dzur Mountain. It's a challenge in manipulation, the Yendi's forté, not a challenge to do something that requires bravery, which is what a Dzur would want. > >On the topic of "irony", I just came across one of my favorite >authors, Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa (Duke of Palma and Prince of >Lampedusa), using the word in the Sethran sense, so I'm willing to >retract my former objection. > That's lucky.