On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Philip Hart wrote: > >> > >> >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David Silberstein wrote: > >> > > >> >> The Marquise de Merteuil and the Vicomte de Valmont are both > >> >> serious Yendis trying to out-Yendi each other. > >> > > >> >I'd think their plans are much too straightforward for Yendis. > >> >They're rather more like Athyras (or I should say athyras) in a world > >> >where sex is magic, or Dzurs in a society where sex is violence. > >> > >> Thinking about it, sex isn't even the point for them; they've > >> become jaded with anything so straightforward as pleasure for its > >> own sake. It's the manipulation & cruelty; the power trip they > >> get from manipulating their *chosen* targets of seduction, > >> rather than seduction in itself. Or so it seemed to me. > >> > >> Anyway, they're Yendis all the way down. > > > > > >They're too open in my view. If I remember correctly, Valmont is > >a known predator who has to find a naive sheltered Christian to > >practice a manipulation (twice, actually). > > Well, after many years of being manipulative and deceitful, of > course he'll get a reputation for being that way. > > You seem to be suggesting that if he were truly on top of things, > *no one* would ever know. Well, if Yendi were that way, they > wouldn't have the reputation of being manipulative and deceitful, > they would have the reputation of being strangely competent in all > situations. They're not, though, so they don't. There are limits > to everything, even a Yendi's ability to plan. Part of being a Yendi is controlling who knows you're a Yendi... Having everyone informed know a) you're manipulative and b) what ends you're trying to reach (Valmon't situation) makes it hard to be a Yendi. On the other hand, he does work with it (arguing he's a good reclamation project), which is Yendi-like. > > > And both he and Merteuil let their emotions mess with their > >planning. > > Often Yendi are cool under fire, but we've also seen them > become rather warm in certain circumstances. I don't think > we can assume they are so in control of their emotions that > they never cause problems. V and M are steering for the reefs though. > >I agree re sex - they're like Athyras and knowledge - they're > >pursuing an end (winning a game in this case) or perhaps trying to > >achieve a kind of glory by taking on impossible challenges (which > >is why I think Valmont is Dzur-like). > > No, no. Athyra are too uninterested in people to be good at > manipulation; Dzur too open to be deceitful.. We don't know much about Athyra, really - but athyras are manipulative. Perhaps I'm making an ends/means case - Athyras don't care about useless knowledge, Dzur don't care about obstacles. > > > The Dzur aren't violent like Orca - > > Eh? Both Dzur and Orca can be violent; it's just towards different > ends. Here "like" is used to convey, "Dzur aren't violent in the manner of Orca". > Orca want profit, Dzur want fame. One way to achieve fame > is to fight a lot of people, preferably (for the Dzur, since it's > more likely to bring fame) all at the same time. Valmont wants fame as I recall - or rather infamy. > > >and attempting to seduce a truly devout woman might be the local > >equivalent of charging up Dzur Mountain. > > It's a challenge in manipulation, the Yendi's forté, not a > challenge to do something that requires bravery, which is > what a Dzur would want. Valmont's tragedy is that he's a hero in a cynical world. > > > >On the topic of "irony", I just came across one of my favorite > >authors, Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa (Duke of Palma and Prince of > >Lampedusa), using the word in the Sethran sense, so I'm willing to > >retract my former objection. > > > > That's lucky. Actually I'm giving in to the flood of wrongness, a rather unSethran choice I think...