--- Shawn Burns <s1burns at ucsd.edu> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:11 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: duh! > > > > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Shawn Burns wrote: > > > From: Mark A. Mandel [mailto:thnidu at yahoo.com] > > > > --- Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote: > > > > >> Which begs the question: When's the "right time"? > > > > >RAISES the question. > > > > > > This is an interesting point. I generally uses "begs the question" as > > denoting a argument fallacy. But every once in a while I want to use > > it as "raises the question", and I think there is at least a popular > > movement to change the meaning of the phrase. I don't think I would > > object to the meaning being changed, since intuitively I can see "that > begs the question" > > as meaning "what you have just said is akin to begging me to ask you > > this follow-up question". I don't know what the etymology is (perhaps > > both meanings were in usage at some point), but I'm inclined to use it > > > both ways, despite what the OED says. At one point the OED defined a > > whale as a fish; meanings change with use. > > > >>This strikes me as very very evil - there's a phrase that has a unique > useful meaning ("making a fallacious argument by >>assuming the > >>conclusion") not easily expressed otherwise, with a long pedigree from > a > phrase ("petitio principii" - "requesting the >>start" or something) one > sees on occasion; and there's a meaning which can be easily expressed > idiomatically otherwise >>("raises the question", "suggests", "leads > to", > "brings up", ...) - and people are stomping the former with the latter. > >>At some point we prescriptivists may have to give up on this phrase > but it > will mean a loss of current expressivity and >>a loss of > comprehensibility > of texts. > > Well, I'm not really advocating "giving up" the logical meaning of the > phrase...just perhaps not caring so much about when someone chooses to > use > it in the way that seems most intuitive to them. I can easily see myself > using both meanings in conversations, just switching up based on the > audience and context. > > Which begs the question "Which audiences and contexts are appropriate > for > each use?" In my opinion, "beg the question" is "skunked", as some language writer puts it. You can't use it with the old meaning except in very unusual contexts (alt.usage.english, for instance), and you can't use it with the new meaning because *someone* will object. Instead I use synonyms: "argue in a circle" or "assume what needs to be proven" for the old meaning, and "raise the question" or even "beg for the question" for the new one. Eventually the new meaning may totally replace the old and become standard (see "hectic"). But it will become unanimous over my dead body. Jerry Friedman might mean "over my dead soul". __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com