On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 02:38:00PM -0700, Jeff G. wrote: > From: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> > > On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > > [some interesting stuff about history snipped] > > > > What's the latest thinking on the degree of justification of > > the fire bombing of Tokyo/the nuking of Hiroshima/ditto Nagasaki? > > Last I heard there were questions about whether the latter > > were in part a message to Stalin, and (switching to my speculation) > > that in fact a reason to finish off the Pacific war asap was to keep > > him out of Japan. > As I recall, the original justification for the firebombing of Tokyo was > that the Japanese industry was spread throughout many small "home" > workshops, making the type of directed attack used against the German > industry useless. Of course, I haven't studied this in detail for over 15 > years, so there may be some information I have forgotten. As far as the > atomic bombs, well, I think it was multifaceted, a message to Stalin and a > way to finish the war quickly. 1.6 million estimated US casualties if the > home islands were invaded is the number that pops into my head, and that was > based on the nasty island hopping fighting done on the way to Japan. Also, > until you have seen the devestation that they wrecked upon a city, you can > not comprehend how devestating those weapons are, regardless of how many > films you have seen of them expolding in the desert. Unfortunately I just loaned the book out to a friend this weekend, so cannot look up the exact quote. General Curtis LeMay is quoted about the firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities in Richard Rhodes' "Dark Sun", a history of the manufacture of the hydrogen bomb and the politics which surrounded it. He says pretty much flat out that if the US had won the war, he'd have been executed as a war criminal. When considering the use of nuclear weapons, one needs to bear in mind that those making the decision didn't understand the long-term issues of fallout, the effect of the flash, etc, etc. They certianly expected something similar to the firebombing, tho, and the intent was exactly to cause the 'indiscrimate' destruction which resulted. The big difference was that the fission bomb was psychologically much more powerful because it was one, single, bomb. It let a single plane do what had previously required fleets of bombers - but the actual effect wasn't expected to be much different than the fleets of bombers. And the fleets of bombers were already doing that scale of damage or worse in civilian areas on a regular basis. For those who'd like to get a better feel for what the situation was like with respect to the lives saved or lost, I recommend "Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb" by George Feifer. The book is flawed, but will tell you in chilling detail the intensity of the Japanese resistance. As an example, more civilians died on Okinawa than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not because the actions of the US military targeted civilians, but because the Japanese military intermixed their installations with civilians, because the civilians freely formed self-defense corps. Schoolgirls practiced using sharpened bamboo stakes to resist the invasion; some committed mass suicide rather than surrender or be taken prisoner. Civilians strapped bombs to themselves and tried to enter US positions. And this was, by Japanese standards, a bunch of second-class citizens. There was every reason to expect that taking Japan itself would be harder, both on the US soldier and on the Japanese. The most common counter-arguement is that the Japanese were ready to surrender. There were certianly some Japanese officials who were sounding out the US about the possibility of same, but it wasn't clear then or now just how influential they were. As a counter-example, bear in mind that there were individuals in the Japanese military who considered assasinating the Emperor rather than surrender -- and that was *after* the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped. It was a dark time, and both sides did things that were beyond the pale. But we can learn from such things, as 'Tennozan' shows. The description of the 'war reunion' when survivors from both sides met many years later is one of the most moving you'll ever read. Steve -- "In my darker moments I consider creating the eeyore fan club with a theme song by Leonard Cohen, logo by Edvard Munch and costumes by Tim Burton." -- anonymous, forwarded by Ellen.