Davdi Silverrock wrote: > I don't buy the part about "Easterner citizens multiplying until they > take over the House", but in mulling it over, it did occur to me that An argument against this theory is it's only been 200 some years since the Interregnum--and no Easterner could buy titles into the Jhereg before that time. Sure, the Easterner's shorter lifespan, and more rapid rate of reproduction might prove to be a problem (eventually) given the comparitively slow rate of Dragaeran reproduction--but consider three important facts. 1) The Easterners have to compete in a Dragaeran society, and are at a severe disadvantage the entire time. 2) Only a handful of Easterners are likely to have bought titles by Vlad's time. Most can't (or won't) waste their money to buy a Jhereg title in the first place. 3) It's only been 7 or 8 Easterner generations since the first Easterners got Jhereg titles at all--which is not really enough time for this problem to become apparent to the Dragaerans. > there was another point in your argument's favor, that being the > nature of House Jhereg. > > The Jhereg are not philanthopists; they're out to make money. Vlad is > permitted to control his area as long as he keeps the money flowing > in. By the same token, I can see the Jhereg specifying that the > patent of nobility would be a strictly limited one. If Vlad wants > Vlad N to be designated heir to the Baronetcy, it would make sense to > the Jhereg to have him pay up to retain the title, just as sure as > Teckla have to keep paying and paying to Jhereg lenders. At the same time, the Jhereg, being out to make money, are more likely to want to use the members of their House to make money the way a fuedal society always makes money--not by contributing "renewal fees" for their titles, but rather, by taking the taxes that their Teckla pay, and giving them to the House. (Does Vlad get a portion of the crops grown by the Teckla in his Baronetcy? If so, the money from this likely gets "split with upstairs" before he sees a copper.) This is the way traditional feudal systems work--the Teckla do all the producing and the nobility take their cut of the produce for their own use. It doesn't make sense in this model for House Jhereg to alienate the tax-paying members of their own house by requiring each generation to "re-up" on their titles. I know of no real-world examples in which a title is given, and is allowed to pass one generation and no further. (Given the history of hereditary nobility on this planet, I see it as possible there *are* examples of this, but I haven't ever heard of any.) So it doesn't really seem like a very common way to do things. It is axiomatic that uncommon theories require uncommon proofs. (Or is that amazing theories and amazing proofs? I can't remember the adjective.) Either way, the statements at the end of /Phoenix/ leave little doubt in my mind that an Imperial Title is hereditary in perpetuity. > On the other hand, I can see a point to the counter-argument about > citizenship being retained once it's bought. The Jhereg don't care > one way or another about that (as long as they get their money), so if > the Orb links to Vlad's children, I can see them retaining that link > even if they have no noble title to go with it. They would just be > Jhereg, low-status members of a low-ranking House (which would be an > incentive for them to purchase a title, of course). I don't think it's possible to be a Jhereg without having a title. (Same with any noble house. They've all got titles of some form or other. That's what makes them "nobility".) A Jhereg with no title is a Teckla. Or worse. > > However, the point may well be moot, since I suspect that children > inherit Orb links from their *mother*, and we ought to be wondering > whether Cawti's title is a limited patent or a permanent one - and > whether she might perhaps try and block her children inheriting the > Orb link if she could, out of sheer antipathy to the Empire. I take it this is a theory with a biological rationale? That the gestating fetus in the mother's womb gets the link before birth? This brings up the whole side-issue of "What makes Dragaerans so special that they automatically get links to the Orb anyway?" It can't be genetic, else Easterners wouldn't be able to get links at all, and Dragaerans on Elde Island would have them (which they don't). No, it seems to be linked to whether or not each individual is entitled to citizenship. But how does the Orb know whether or not a person is entitled? There are countless Easterners in the Empire that do not have links. What is the mechanism for, say, Miklos, coming to live in Faerie as a Teckla, to let the Orb know that he gets a link? When Vlad's father buys a title in the Jhereg, how does the Jhereg who sold him the title let the Orb know that it's okay to let this Easterner (and, presumably his descendants) have a link? Majikjon