On 6/15/06, Jon Lincicum <lincicum at comcast.net> wrote: > Davdi Silverrock wrote: > > I don't buy the part about "Easterner citizens multiplying until they > > take over the House", but in mulling it over, it did occur to me that > An argument against this theory is it's only been 200 some years since > the Interregnum--and no Easterner could buy titles into the Jhereg > before that time. And possibly even sometime after that (the policy of allowing sale to Easterners was added by the Demon, at some point in his career). Hm. I stumbled upon textev for the Demon: "showed up in Adrilankha about a hundred and fifty years ago selling Jhereg titles to Easterners" [snip stuff I agree with] > > there was another point in your argument's favor, that being the > > nature of House Jhereg. > > > > The Jhereg are not philanthopists; they're out to make money. Vlad is > > permitted to control his area as long as he keeps the money flowing > > in. By the same token, I can see the Jhereg specifying that the > > patent of nobility would be a strictly limited one. If Vlad wants > > Vlad N to be designated heir to the Baronetcy, it would make sense to > > the Jhereg to have him pay up to retain the title, just as sure as > > Teckla have to keep paying and paying to Jhereg lenders. [ feudalism ] > > It doesn't make sense in this model for House Jhereg to alienate the > tax-paying members of their own house by requiring each generation to > "re-up" on their titles. But I can definitely see the Jhereg instituting special rules for Teckla and Easterners who want to join the House fresh - whom they wouldn't care about alienating, just about squeezing for money. And if the Easterners don't like being squeezed, they can just swear fealty to someone and be Teckla. > I know of no real-world examples in which a title is given, and is > allowed to pass one generation and no further. I believe that the suggestion was not that the title passed "one generation and no further", but rather, was purchased for the both of them. And a couple of trivia points: Knighthoods are not usually inheritable - but according to Wikipedia, the title "baronet" was specifically created as an inheritable knighthood. So there's that. > > Either way, the statements at the end of /Phoenix/ leave little doubt in > my mind that an Imperial Title is hereditary in perpetuity. The Imperial Title is understood to be permanent from the textev, and was not the subject of the debate. > > On the other hand, I can see a point to the counter-argument about > > citizenship being retained once it's bought. The Jhereg don't care > > one way or another about that (as long as they get their money), so if > > the Orb links to Vlad's children, I can see them retaining that link > > even if they have no noble title to go with it. They would just be > > Jhereg, low-status members of a low-ranking House (which would be an > > incentive for them to purchase a title, of course). > I don't think it's possible to be a Jhereg without having a title. (Same > with any noble house. They've all got titles of some form or other. > That's what makes them "nobility".) I disagree. Textev: (Paresh speaking, in /Teckla/:) 'Of all of the "Noble Houses" [...] there are only a few which contain any of the aristocracy, and then only a few of that House.' > A Jhereg with no title is a Teckla. Or worse. Nope, just a Jhereg. > > > > However, the point may well be moot, since I suspect that children > > inherit Orb links from their *mother*, and we ought to be wondering > > whether Cawti's title is a limited patent or a permanent one - and > > whether she might perhaps try and block her children inheriting the > > Orb link if she could, out of sheer antipathy to the Empire. > I take it this is a theory with a biological rationale? That the > gestating fetus in the mother's womb gets the link before birth? Paarfi, in tLoCB: "Where between conception and birth falls the moment when the Orb insinuates itself from a mother who is a citizen to an infant who is to become one? We cannot, in this brief work, take the time to explore this question with the thoroughness it deserves, so we will say only that it seems to be the case that the connection comes somewhere toward the end of the mother's term of pregnancy." > It can't be genetic, else Easterners wouldn't be able to get links at > all, and Dragaerans on Elde Island would have them (which they don't). > No, it seems to be linked to whether or not each individual is entitled > to citizenship. But how does the Orb know whether or not a person is > entitled? Note how Piro and Ibronka, et al, received Orb links: They swore fealty to Zerika, and it just worked. It may be a sneaky secret that getting an Orb link is as simple as that, and the reason that Easterners in the Empire don't get links is simply because they are disinclined to swear fealty, and/or because they don't realize how simple it is.