Dragaera

OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...)

Sat Aug 17 14:16:10 PDT 2002

> AFIK, *every* term we have for the toilet (including toilet) was devised
> as a euphemism for a previous term, which was devised as a euphemism for
> the previous term . . .
>
> And so it goes.  Now 'gay' meaning, "happy, carefree" is ruined
> forever.  'Special' has gotten all smarmy around the edges.
>

I don't really have a point or counter-point - everyone is making good
sense, but the discussion and different viewpoints are so interesting and
informative that I can't help but splash some of my paint on this
technicolour canvas.

'Twas brillig,
and the slithey toves did gyre and and gimble in the wabe
All mimsy were the borogroves
And the mome raths out gabe

Lewis Carrol - from "Jabberwocky". (from memory too, so please don't get
upset if it's not perfect)

I've heard these words called "port_man_teau" -- spelled wrongly <=  ; ) no
doubt -- meaning they are nonsensical combination words - slithey - maybe a
combination of slimey and slither (we can only guess; Carrol doesn't explain
his words).

This is definitely subjective, and you can only get the gist of what he is
describing, and you need to read the whole poem to get a better context, but
it works.  He is celebrating subjectivity, busting down pedantic rules and
regulations regarding word use, definition, case, type, spelling, etc, and
entertaining us too.  Instruction and delight.  I like it.  It tickles.  I
think there's a place and need for this type of exploration of the language.
In fact, I believe it is unavoidable.  It's natural.

Our language IS closely linked to how we think.  Or actually, the reverse.
How we think is dictated by language.  If you think in Chinese you will have
a different perspective from one who thinks in English.   You can't help
it - there is so much cultural and historical baggage attached to each
expression and word and sound in a language.  Compare the size of a Chinese
translation of an English engineering textbook to the original.  The Chinese
translation is 3 or 4 times as large. Poetry translations generally fall way
short of the truths the authors are entertaining.  Chinese is *very*
different from western languages, and carries immense amounts of baggage.
(I've lived there, and speak enough to shop and travel, and believe me, it
assumes a different thought process - and I'm not talking about grammatical
construction - I don't want to (hell, can't) even get into the written
language).  So by definition (or at least by MY definition), language is
extremely subjective.  Its elastic nature is natural.  Words are simulacrums
of thoughts and ideas, and fuzzy ones at that, but we create them as
naturally as a bird building a nest.

Steve said:

>There are cases of children growing up in complete isolation who develop
>"ideologues" or whatever they are called--languages only they can
>understand.

As we get older our minds become less flexible, and tend to resist change.

So we agree to definitions, and muddle through as best we can, and some of
us, like Steve, can do more, and some of us, like Shakespeare, add to our
vocabulary, and others, like Snoop Dog or Mace, co-op it, and some like
Carrol destroy it and remake it into something else.

Maybe Carrol was a destroyer because he was a mathematician.  I had a
calculus instructor in university who would never use traditional variables.
He always called them something wacky, or used a mundane word like
"elephant" instead (of X or Y).  Functions and derivatives were a nightmare
=).