Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 02:04:05AM -0600, Gametech > <voltronalpha at hotmail.com> wrote: >> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 01:29:50AM -0600, Gametech >>> <voltronalpha at hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>>> Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids >>>>> than hiring a hit man. >>>> Okay go create something like a robot, if it kills someone see who >>>> shows up at your door. >>> Robots don't have free will. >>> You're being deliberately obtuse. >> Heh... No. I said it just so you'd make that reply that way if you >> didn't see my underlying point. Clever, no? > > No. > >> To compare us to an omnipotent god is the same as comparing a robot >> to us, our freedom of our will isn't comparable to the freedom of an >> omnipotent gods as the same is true from a robot to ours, it does >> what it was designed to do, just like we would in the case of being >> a creation of gods. > > OK, here we have to fork the argument. > > Either 1) you actually mean omnipotent, or 2) you mean > omniscient. Now, an omnipotent God could conceivably design a > world that included free will and so on, but didn't allow anyone > to commit evil acts. An omniscient God would presumably know the > consequences of all his acts, and thus would responsible for > later actions exactly as if setting up a stack of dominoes to > topple. > > The counterargument to both forks remains the same: free will. > If omniscient, then God may know the results of his actions, but > he is not making our choices for us. We choose to do good or > evil, and foreknowledge of that choice does not equate to a lack > of choice. If omnipotent, then by removing the consequences of > evil choices from the world, God would be negating the > significance of free will. If there are no consequences to evil > acts, than why does it matter whether you choose good or evil? > Thus, an omnipotent God cannot logically protect us from evil > acts, freely chosen, without removing our free will in > practical, if not theoretical, terms. Omnipotent Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite. n. 1.. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents. 2.. Omnipotent God. Used with the. 1. If you have unlimited power omniscient ness is within your power therefore you have that as well he can't be omnipotent and not know unless he wanted it that way, either way choosing to be ignorant of the chain of effect of the actions doesn't make one any less responsible. 2. Who even says we have free will? Boxed choices seems to me not to be free will. Free will means unrestrained choices (though it can just mean the ability to exercise choice), the universe restrains us to its laws. If god created the universe all he is doing is giving us the ability to choose between his choices. That sounds very much to me like the lack of free will.