--- Joshua Kronengold <mneme at io.com> wrote: > Steve Simmons writes: > >On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 08:40:11AM -0600, Joshua > Kronengold wrote: > >> Philip Hart writes: > > >> It's possible, but IIRC, the numbers we have > indicate that a change in > >> emperor does not -necessarily- indicate a change > in Cycle -- This discussion has gotten pretty complicated, but I'll try to join in. I definitely believe that there can be multiple Emperors during a reign. The orb doesn't prevent all forms of death (the Emperor can die of old age, magical trickery, or for all we know choking on his dinner). If an Emperor died before 189 years had passed we'd definitely need another, and even if more time had passed there's no necessary change that's ever been indicated. Remember near the end of _The Phoenix Guards_ when Paarfi describes the White Goblets plot? Tortaalik's sister plotted to kill Tortaalik by poison in pre-Empire Sorcery magical goblets. When he died, she would take the throne. It may have even happened less than 189 years into his reign (I don't have the book with me). Anyway, some magical attack could kill him at any time if it was good enough to get around the orb, so there's a necessity for multiple Emperors during one reign. > isn't the > >> largest amount of time a house can remain > ascendant longer than the > >> usual Dragaeran lifetime? Yes, and I think this can happen during times of general peace and prosperity, not just whenever the Emperor happens to be a magically rejuvenated wizard. > >In fact, we have definitive proof otherwise with > >Tortaalik (or however > >the heck it was spelled) and Zerika. Both > >Phoenixes, no cycle change. > Right. > This is wrong, of course -- Tortallik was the last > emperor of the > Great Cycle of the Phoenix, Cycle of the Phoneix, > Reign of the > (decaying) Phoenix. Definitely not. The Great Cycle of the Phoenix (the first Great Cycle) ended when Cherova abdicated in favor of Tortaalik. She was Empress during the Reign of the Athyra, Cycle of the Athyra, Great Cycle of the Phoenix. When Tortaalik became Emperor he began the Reign of the Phoenix, Cycle of the Phoenix, Great Cycle of the Dragon. There are not two reigns of the Phoenix during a cycle, despite what the poem at the beginning of most books appears to some. When the Phoenix is mentioned at the end it just indicates that it has turned to a new cycle, beginning just where the last began. That is, the Phoenix is the first reign in a cycle, not the first and last. > [is there another way they > distinguish the first > and last Phoenix in a cycle where there are both?] > I think there's only one Phoenix Reign per cycle (but it may have more than one Emperor during it, like any reign). > Wheras Zereka is the first emperor of the Great > Cycle of the Dragon, > Cycle of the Phoenix, Reign of the (rising) Phoenix. > This may be getting repetitive but Zerika IV is the first Empress (who came after the first Emperor) of the Reign of the (only one per cycle) Phoenix, Cycle of the Phoenix, Great Cycle of the Dragon. Before her the only reborn Phoenix Emperor or Empress was Zerika I when the Empire was first created. Zerika IV came to power and the Emperor was reborn in the first Phoenix Reign (which included both Tortaalik I, the Interregnum, and Zerika IV) > Admitedly, Paarfi claims that 500YA takes place "In > the Year of the > Hawk, In the Turn of the Orca, In the Phase of the > Dragon, In the > Reign of the Phoenix, In the Cycle of the Phoenix, > In the Great Cycle > of the Dragon, Or, the 532nd Year of the Reign of > Tortaalik the > Third", which seems incorrect; the Great Cycle > didn't turn until > Zereka returned with the Orb, after all. No, he's definitely correct. I think he even mentions in the narration of _The Phoenix Guards_ in the first chapter about how there's a new Great Cycle. Zerika's reign began when she got the Orb. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com